[Deck] Merfolk

[Skeggi]

Okay, Canonist may not be the best option. I merely suggested it as a possible sideboard card against combo. If I splash white I'll be sure to test it. Chant can be good too, but may be more narrow as it doesn't set a clock and requires you to keep a mana open. But both options are things that should be tested I think, because I still don't like the odds against Combo. In fact, the reason I'm taking an interest in the white splash is because next to improving the Aggro match-up, it can improve the Combo match-up. I think that's very interesting.

[Maveric78f]

Meddling Mage is as good as Canonist against combo. Just name Chant if you have FoW in hand. If your opponent is low in life name Tendrils. If your opponent is high in life and if you don't have Force, then name Ad Nauseum. In any case, you've almost won.

[tivadar]

Honestly I'd go with either cannonist or chalice. Chalice is more relevant in other matchups, as it hoses sligh decks when set to 1. Sure, there goes your vials, but if you can stop all their bolts, apes, nactals and the like, it's certainly good. So maybe chalice > canonist. I wouldn't do chant. To me that seems even more narrow, and as you said, doesn't beat. Generally, my take on combo is that you want something thats proactive, not reactive, with an aggro deck like this. Meddling also seems weak to me. Sure you can name chant, but then you had better have FoW in hand for when they go off. Canonist stops them all by its onesy while also slowing how quickly they can find answers (one cantrip per turn!)

[Raptor]

Hello, I've been wondering. Have you guys considered the green splash versus the white one ? You guys could have nice addition to wall tarmo (tarmo), and an answer to Dreadnought with Kgrip.

Looked at the last 10 pages and didn't really find an answer. Anyway, was mainly looking of what would be the advantages cons of splashing green over the normal and the white splash version.

[tivadar]

Hello, I've been wondering. Have you guys considered the green splash versus the white one ? You guys could have nice addition to wall tarmo (tarmo), and an answer to Dreadnought with Kgrip.

In my opinion, green doesn't have what this deck needs. In a meta filled with graveyard hate, wake thrasher is almost as good as goyf, albeit a bit slower. This deck doesn't need more beaters. In addition, if this deck wants to beat dreadnought, it's got echoing truth, and, even better, threads of disloyalty, not to mention its counter backup. White also gives you disenchant.

If you want to make an argument for green, tell me how it helps your combo and burn matchups. Here, white gives you options of canonist, meddling mage, and chant. Against aggro, it gives you STP. most importantly, against burn it gives you pro-red. Yes, Goyf is tempting, but it's about the only reason to splash green over white that I can think of, though I'm happy for a debate.

[Finn]

I have found that Misdirection is a decent ant-combo card. And I have it in there as an anti-red card.

It's pretty damned good against:

Orim's Chant (not Duress and not Silence)

and it is still useful against:

Pyroblast
Chain of Vapor and various forms of removal (I doubt we will see much of this w/out Canonist or Meddling Mage though)
Tendrils of Agony (though this is a pretty bad use)
Countermagic

So, the big targets (and the only ones I have had the chance to play it against) are:

Orim's Chant
Pyroblast

Given the importance of Orim's Chant for them, and the magnitude of the effect of reversing it, it may be worth a go. To be sure, it is not the best sb card here. The fact that I have it in there for an entirely different matchup is the reason I even bring it up.

EDIT: BTW, I think Canonist is a pretty bad choice. In addition to what has been said, it can mess up your own deck if the opponent is familiar with seeing it and plays smart.

[tivadar]

Hmm, I hadn't considered Misdirection for chant, but you're right, it's gamebreaking, and while it is reactive, it's free reactive, so it's something I can get behind. The only question is do combo decks run silence instead? Seems like for their gameplan, silence is superior. It's untargetted! They probably won't be chanting with kicker.

Though you did forget one thing: thoughtsieze. This is target player rather than opponent. I'm assuming "choose" means that they do have to choose one of their own cards to discard...?

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

If you want to make an argument for green
Then I would say results- 5th at scg 5k and 1st at the Jupiter Games 40 duals. The lists were nearly identical and have the same pilot, but both tournaments were huge with tons of tier 1 decks piloted by some of the best legacy players in the community.

I think splashing is definitely the next evolutionary step for merfolk and I'd prefer it was white, but green offers some good options. Grip > disenchant, which has some nasty drawbacks (no split second, cc2:eek:) which are relevant because a lot of the scary artifacts run the countertop engine too. Tarmo is still probably better than sovereign, but I haven't had enough time to test and Nightmare says it's not, so I'm still working. StP is nice, but I wonder if it could give back too much tempo with lifegain from a large creature?

Originally I tried by making the manabase entirely nonbasic and using Tarmo/Grip/StP/Absolute Law in the same list. I kind of scrapped the idea, but it didn't really wasn't that bad except when its manabase was left alone. I should probably stick to just 1 splash, but I'm leaning toward green until Sovereign proves himself better than goyf (at least; then I need to see if disenchant can resolve enough for it to be worthwhile).

[Finn]

Tiv, I have never encountered Thoughtseize from an Ad Nauseum deck. I think the life loss is an issue. Anyway, it works of course. And they would have to reveal their hand to you and then choose one of their own cards to pitch. I just don't know how often you are going to see it.

[Nightmare]

Tarmo is still probably better than sovereign, but I haven't had enough time to test and Nightmare says it's not, so I'm still working.

It's a question of context. I would never say that as a late-game top deck, Sovereign is better than Goyf - it isn't. However, Goyf doesn't really contribute much to the deck, or improve any of the other cards you're playing with. Sovereign is much better in this deck, based on synergy much more than raw power. Besides, in a significant number of games with this deck, Silvergill is bigger than goyf. 12 lords, people. 12.

Then the question is, if your intent is to cut Goyf, what benefit do you get from green? You're still getting Grip, but you need to decide if the Split-Second is enough reason to outweigh your potential gains from the other colors. STP aside, you get the same benefits from Disenchant (or, if the 2cc thing is an issue, you could run Dismantling Blow) as you do from Grip; plus you get Absolute Law, which is game breaking in your worst matchups. With Green, I had been testing Steely Resolve, but it still left you cold to Devastating Dreams or Firespout, which are both kicked in the dick by Law. So, in my opinion, STP or no, you still get far more value from the White splash than the Green - under the assumption that you're removing Goyf anyway. That argument is one I've made my mind up on, but you all may agree or disagree.

[Wargoos]

Where are you pulling 15/15 thrasher from? I mean, that's a) kinda overkill, and b) nearly impossible to do.
Well, Thrasher grows pretty fast. Especially in the mid-/lategame when you have some lords and done some reejerey untap action.
For a: It's kinda cute if you win the game with it and b)pretty cool if you actually can pull that off. Of course it's just toying, but it gives you smileys when it happens.

@ Thread: I like Nightmare's splash version but am afraid that it weakens you in the mirror due to being more vulnerable to stifle but I have to try that first before making an ultimate statement.
cheers.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Its been awhile since i've played merfolk, and based on the current topic which is splashing color im just curious having seen STP on the SB slot, what do STP in the board actually do ?

I know STP sloves any creature threat but.., it also gives life to your opponent which i think is counter productive. Isn't that merfolk deck is supposed to played aggressivly. Having the moto of don't worry about your opponents threat, let them worry about yours...

Before merfolk sovereign came, pyroclasm, eng plauge and alike are problems but having 12 lord effects helps in that situation i used to like splashing white aswell especially when the meta is red heavy for absolute law and stp split with pte if im faced with burn ill go with stp faced with aggro pte.

Merfolk Sovereign is a very nice addition to the merfolk deck, i've also added 4 in my merfolk deck and ill be testing if ill cut wake thrasher or tidalwarrior.

[Skeggi]

I know STP sloves any creature threat but.., it also gives life to your opponent which i think is counter productive. Isn't that merfolk deck is supposed to played aggressivly. Having the moto of don't worry about your opponents threat, let them worry about yours...
If you play the mana denial version with Stifles, the lifegain isn't that much of a problem. If you play the beatdown version with Wake Thrashers instead of Stifles, the land from Path to Exile isn't that much of a problem.

@Green splash: the only useful things you can get are Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip. They're not really needed, we have better things for that. Ofcourse there are instances where a deck with green splash does well, but there are alot more instances where monoblue does well. The white splash with only white cards in the sideboard is a relative new idea, so it's worth testing.

@Misdirection: I don't like this card, just like FoW it's straight-up carddisadvantage. Only it's alot more narrow than FoW, and I'm already having troubles trying to keep a blue card in my hand for FoW, because usually I'd like to put them all on the table. As far as I can tell, Misdirection is only good against decks like Eva Green or The Rock. Misdirecting a Hymn to Tourach is the tech. But I think there are better things to use against these decks: Submerge, Jitte, Echoing Truth, Threads of Disloyalty and Relic of Progenitus. These are all alot less narrow than Misdirection, so I don't see a slot in the sideboard for that card.

Siding in a Misdirection versus combo seems like a bad plan to me: yes Misdirecting a Chant seems cool, but wouldn't you rather have a Chant yourself?

[stuckpixel]

Has anyone playtested sleep, either maindeck or out of the board? It seems like it'd be a solid card against other aggro decks to effectively timewalk them and hopefully get enough damage through to win.

I'm debating running a few in my board and giving them a try. 4 mana is a little hefty, but it seems like a game-breaking spell if it resolves against zoo, goyf sligh, etc.

[tivadar]

Has anyone playtested sleep, either maindeck or out of the board? It seems like it'd be a solid card against other aggro decks to effectively timewalk them and hopefully get enough damage through to win.

I'm debating running a few in my board and giving them a try. 4 mana is a little hefty, but it seems like a game-breaking spell if it resolves against zoo, goyf sligh, etc.

That's actually a rather interesting choice. It effectively timewalks them for 2 turns as well. You play it during their upkeep and it locks them out their next upkeep as well. The main issue I'd have with it is the cost at 4 mana...

[kabal]

That's actually a rather interesting choice. It effectively timewalks them for 2 turns as well. You play it during their upkeep and it locks them out their next upkeep as well. The main issue I'd have with it is the cost at 4 mana...

Unfortunately it is a Sorcery. Since you are on the topic of "tap creatures", there is also Turnabout (http://magiccards.info/us/en/105.html) and Ensnare (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/32.html)

[tivadar]

Unfortunately it is a Sorcery. Since you are on the topic of "tap creatures", there is also Turnabout (http://magiccards.info/us/en/105.html) and Ensnare (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/32.html)

Thanks, missed that. Hadn't seen the card before and when I looked it up I just assumed it was an instant. Still, it clears blockers for you for two turns, though only prevents them from attacking for one.

[Seb]

I would play Cryptic Command before playing Sleep. In Merfolk, :u::u::u: isn't that much of a problem.

[Nekrataal]

I would play Cryptic Command before playing Sleep. In Merfolk, :u::u::u: isn't that much of a problem.

I doubt that except you are playing without Wastelands and Mutavaults.

[stuckpixel]

Ideally, you have enough damage on the board to either win in 2 attack phases, or at least come dangerously close.

Sleep in your pre-combat phase, attack, they take their turn with tapped creatures, then you can swing again.

I think I may just throw this in my board tonight and give it a whirl (if I see any aggro).

[Piceli89]

I would play Cryptic Command before playing Sleep. In Merfolk, :u::u::u: isn't that much of a problem.

That would be a great inclusion.


















..in Standard Merfolks.

[Cenarius]

Test 30 (or less if you don't play frequently) normal testgames.

Then tell me at what turn u could play Cryptic Command on average. Then tell me if it changed the gamestate, then tell me if you win with cryptic command and how many games u lost because of a Cryptic Command in your openinghand instead of an other (powerful turn 1-3) card.
Also include the decks you played against.

By doing this you can simply say if one card is right for this deck or not, atleast I can.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

It's a question of context. I would never say that as a late-game top deck, Sovereign is better than Goyf - it isn't. However, Goyf doesn't really contribute much to the deck, or improve any of the other cards you're playing with. Sovereign is much better in this deck, based on synergy much more than raw power.
Of course, context is everything I agree; I only spoke in absolutes for the sake of brevity. I'm really beginning to like your list more and more. I think the main is about as good as it can get (still looking for an alternative to stifle though) and the sideboard is close.

I've made some minor changes due to personal preference, but I don't know if I can really claim a huge difference: 3 deltas/4 islands and -2 "steal shit" slots for +1 law, +1 jitte. When you have the chance to do more testing of your own, I'd love to see results. I want to eventually try and run the best UW and UG decks I can find against a gauntlet of aggro and combo matches to put them to the test.

[ansset]

Hmm, I don't believe that's a play mistake. When he casts reset, he then gets priority first. He can choose to either pass, or play his twincast immediately. If he passes and you pass (don't counter), reset resolves and he can't twincast it. The only way he can twincast is to cast it immediately, before you have a chance to counter, and then, of course, you can respond to that. Mind you, I don't know other board position info, but if he really needed to twincast his reset, it was the only way to go. Outside of cheating and pausing for a significant amount of time to see if you'll say anything.

It was me, and it's entirely not debatable as to whether it was a play mistake, because math says that it wasn't. The board state was that I had six lands and 4 cards in hand, one of which was dead. The relevant cards were Reset, Twincast, and Cunning Wish. I had no Tide, nor did I have access to Tide (no Flash in my graveyard, nothing like that). Here was my thought process:

1. I can Reset and Twincast it, which beats Daze and loses immediately to Force (keep in mind I floated UU).
2. I can Reset and he can choose not to Force (but has it): I have access to 8 mana now. I cast Wish with UU floating and 1 land, leaving 5 open. He Forces, I Twincast Wish. What do I get? The plan is Meditate, obviously, but that taps me out and I'm still dead on board.
3. I can Reset, he can Force, I Twincast with UU floating, I have 6 untapped lands. I could get Meditate and now we're in the same exact position as before.

Conclusion: If he has Force, I lose. If he doesn't, I get access to 8 mana with a Reset on the stack. I get to Wish for Meditate and Meditate, leaving 2 mana floating and a Reset on the stack. From there, I have a shot at winning. Using Twincast as a counterspell was not an option, and my only choice was to proceed as though he was holding Lord of Atlantises and Aether Vials. As he had Daze x 2 + Force, though, I lost.

[tivadar]

Yeah, play mistakes from a Solidarity player aren't always easy to figure out :). So you're saying, given the board/hand position, you had to twincast your reset. I can buy that.

I was actually the one defending you in this case :-P. I wasn't sure whether the poster was indicating that you made a play mistake in playing twincast on reset, which is entirely contextual, or that you made a play mistake in not passing priority before twincasting your reset, which you just can't do.

[pingveno]

Going to test this build in a heavy, HEAVY red aggro meta because I am a glutton for punishment. I don't have any standstills at the moment and Mutavaults are on their way.

20 Land:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Tundra
10 Island

18 Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Harm's Way

22 Merfolk:
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Sivergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
2 Sygg, River Guide

15 Sideboard:
3 Rule of Law/Mark of Asylum
2 Jitte
3 Disenchant
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast

- A quick word on the janky cards (ie Harm's Way and Sygg, the River Guide): I've wanted to test harm's way since it was first printed and a meta filled with lightning bolts seems to be the perfect meta to do just that. Though I am sure it would be better served as something else I am very curious about how cool it can be. And Sygg the river guide seems like he would thrive in a removal heavy meta. Sure he can slow you down quite a bit, but if you drop him with 2 mana open he will rule a creature standoff.
- Ancestral vision is my standstill replacement because I won't be able to get some until after the tournament. Because no standstill I decided to replace vial with some more business spells, mainly sygg and harm's way. Probably not going to be as good, but I want to see if the deck does any better in a different direction.
- I am a big proponent of the splash version and have been since day 1. The advantages far far outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion. That being said, are their any suggestions for this build, keeping in mind what I already said about the Standstills, Vials, and Mutavaults? I am obviously going for a quicker, less mana denial version given my meta, hence no stifles as well. Thanks for any input.

[Piceli89]

Going to test this build in a heavy, HEAVY red aggro meta because I am a glutton for punishment. I don't have any standstills at the moment and Mutavaults are on their way.

20 Land:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Tundra
10 Island

18 Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Harm's Way

22 Merfolk:
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Sivergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
2 Sygg, River Guide

15 Sideboard:
3 Rule of Law/Mark of Asylum
2 Jitte
3 Disenchant
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast

- A quick word on the janky cards (ie Harm's Way and Sygg, the River Guide): I've wanted to test harm's way since it was first printed and a meta filled with lightning bolts seems to be the perfect meta to do just that. Though I am sure it would be better served as something else I am very curious about how cool it can be. And Sygg the river guide seems like he would thrive in a removal heavy meta. Sure he can slow you down quite a bit, but if you drop him with 2 mana open he will rule a creature standoff.
- Ancestral vision is my standstill replacement because I won't be able to get some until after the tournament. Because no standstill I decided to replace vial with some more business spells, mainly sygg and harm's way. Probably not going to be as good, but I want to see if the deck does any better in a different direction.
- I am a big proponent of the splash version and have been since day 1. The advantages far far outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion. That being said, are their any suggestions for this build, keeping in mind what I already said about the Standstills, Vials, and Mutavaults? I am obviously going for a quicker, less mana denial version given my meta, hence no stifles as well. Thanks for any input.

-4 AV
+4 Brainstorm.

[BackDr0p]

-4 AV
+4 Brainstorm.

QFT, You won't be able to control the game enough to the extent to actually benefit from AV. BS is the best card in that slot. Even more so since you run fetches. As everyone knows, BS + Fetches = Win.

[Tacosnape]

Anyone tinkered around much with Misdirection? I've had good luck with it thus far. I've misdirected STP's, burn back to Zoo's creatures, Chant back to storm combo, and my personal favorite, tapping an Aether Vial with no counters on it and Misdirecting a Stifle aimed at a turn 2 Dreadnought to it against Dreadstill. My list is as follows.

13 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Misdirection

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hydroblast
4 Stifle
2 Hibernation
1 Wasteland

[Nekrataal]

I played 2 Misdirection in the SB along with 2 Divert but it was almost never relevant. So I didnt play it anymore.

[Finn]

Taco, I keep swapping between Misdirection and BeB. The hardest part with Misdirection for me has been what to side out in its place. Honestly I have liked exchanging it for FoW. But that is obv pretty damned imperfect.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Finn, I don't know if this is a Captain Obvious statement or something, but unless you're going to be on the play, it's a pretty good rule to side out the Dazes, unless the deck you're playing against is mana light. Siding out FoW seems a little crazy to me, but I can see how it could be correct.

More often than not though I'd side out Standstill, Stifle, a couple creatures, Daze, even a Vial or two, before I move out FoW. It's like, our last line of defense.

[Tacosnape]

I played 2 Misdirection in the SB along with 2 Divert but it was almost never relevant. So I didnt play it anymore.

What were you playing against? In my last five matches I drew Misdirection six times (I think, might have been seven). Among these six I misdirected a Plow, a Bolt, a Hymn, and the aforementioned Stifle. The other two times I pitched it to a Force once and drew it when the game was already in hand the other time (or Times.)

I think it's stronger main due to its versatility than in board, where it's not really enough of a powerhouse against any one thing to board in. Just an idea though.

Also, yeah, I can't see boarding out Force like, ever.

[Citrus-God]

Has anybody tried using Vindicate in this deck? It seems to be an uber promising spell since Wastelands arent enough to mana screw or slow somebody down and a lot of lists have cut Stifles. Also, Vindicates give you an out against Counterbalance if you dont have an AEther Vial down. Here's what I have so far


// Lands 21
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 20
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Dark Confidant
2 Silvergil Adept
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher


// Spells 19
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Vindicate
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize


// Sideboard 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
11 cards yet to be added


Dark Confidants and Thoughtseizes are really fucking amazing. Dark Confidants are a better alternative to Standstills and is actually a bad ass in this deck. People throw removal at you all the time, so resolving a Confidant and having it stick is quite frequent. Thoughtseizes also protect Confidant. Thoughtseize is a bad ass addition too. Being able to take out better creatures, board sweepers and such makes this card golden.

Anyways, any opinions?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Has anybody tried using Vindicate in this deck? It seems to be an uber promising spell since Wastelands arent enough to mana screw or slow somebody down and a lot of lists have cut Stifles. Also, Vindicates give you an out against Counterbalance if you dont have an AEther Vial down. Here's what I have so far


// Lands 21
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 20
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Dark Confidant
2 Silvergil Adept
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher


// Spells 19
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Vindicate
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize


// Sideboard 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
11 cards yet to be added


Dark Confidants and Thoughtseizes are really fucking amazing. Dark Confidants are a better alternative to Standstills and is actually a bad ass in this deck. People throw removal at you all the time, so resolving a Confidant and having it stick is quite frequent. Thoughtseizes also protect Confidant. Thoughtseize is a bad ass addition too. Being able to take out better creatures, board sweepers and such makes this card golden.

Anyways, any opinions?

I'm gonna get it out of the way and go ahead and tell you I expect you'll have problems with your mana base.

Vindicate is nice and everything, but relying on two splash colors to be able to play one card is a very risky proposition, considering Wasteland is one of the most prevalent cards in this format.

I'm a proponent of splashing, or at least trying it out. But I think you're spreading yourself a little too thin. One of the strengths of this deck is its consistency, and the more you splash, the more you sacrifice this consistency, and limit your potential for explosive starts.

[Tacosnape]

3-color Merfolk just feels weird.

Also, there's this card called Standstill. If you're running Wasteland, Mutavault, Aether Vial, and threats? You really oughta run it. The right number is somewhere between 4-6, depending on how willing you are to risk disqualification.

[chokin]

I just picked up the deck this week so forgive any noobiness.

Is it just me, or does this deck seem kinda tight on slots? I usually end up with a 20/20/20 split of creatures, land and spells. from what I see, this deck is pretty set on the core of the deck being:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Curse Catcher

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill

18-22 Land (Waste, Islands, Fetch, Duals, Manlands)

If what I've understood is correct, there's 10 slots to really play with. What's the verdict on Sovereign vs Wake Thrasher? I've heard people say that 12 Lords is awesome and I've also heard that Thrasher is an absolute house (and kind of like a Merfolk Piledriver). 4 seems like an obvious number for either, regardless. And how about Tidal Warrior? I've felt that he's been both awesome and awful depending on the match.

Also, what is the general opinion of Kira? Sygg (U/B one)?

[Tacosnape]

Thrasher is ridiculous. He's also the complete opposite of a Merfolk Piledriver. Piledriver is huge when you've got a hoard of Goblins. Thrasher is still pretty big even when all your other Merfolk get taken down.

I'm not a huge fan of Sovereign. Played him, and I see the allure of him, but I just wasn't overly impressed. If I were going to run him, he'd have to be Merfolk 21-24 (And this is possible, I haven't ruled out a 22+ threat build. It's next on my test list.)

[chokin]

Thrasher is ridiculous. He's also the complete opposite of a Merfolk Piledriver. Piledriver is huge when you've got a hoard of Goblins. Thrasher is still pretty big even when all your other Merfolk get taken down.

I'm not a huge fan of Sovereign. Played him, and I see the allure of him, but I just wasn't overly impressed. If I were going to run him, he'd have to be Merfolk 21-24 (And this is possible, I haven't ruled out a 22+ threat build. It's next on my test list.)

When I called him Merfolk Piledriver, I was mostly referring to him being the big scary finisher and the biggest attacker of the deck :P I should have been more clear.

I never even thought about running 12Lord+Thrasher. Usually my last 10 slots (from the "core" i posted) go to 2 Thrasher (only own 2 atm), 2 Tidal Warrior. Then my last 6 are 4 Brainstorm and 2 land or 4 Stifle 2 PD or 2 land.

Anyone have thoughts on Mark of Asylum? Pingveno mentioned it and it seems like a a decent inclusion in a white splash in a burn heavy meta.

[Tacosnape]

When I called him Merfolk Piledriver, I was mostly referring to him being the big scary finisher and the biggest attacker of the deck :P I should have been more clear.

He is that.:) He's just a bit better because he can do it fairly well without assistance. Shame he doesn't get protection from red to match the Piledriver's pro-blue.


I never even thought about running 12Lord+Thrasher. Usually my last 10 slots (from the "core" i posted) go to 2 Thrasher (only own 2 atm), 2 Tidal Warrior. Then my last 6 are 4 Brainstorm and 2 land or 4 Stifle 2 PD or 2 land.

Whereas I'm not running the splash, so I could easily go 20 land, 4 Daze, 4 Standstill, 4 Force, 4 Vial, 24 Merfolk if I really wanted.


Anyone have thoughts on Mark of Asylum? Pingveno mentioned it and it seems like a a decent inclusion in a white splash in a burn heavy meta.

Why this over Absolute Law, though? What besides like, Sword of Fire and Ice and Psionic Blast is Mark of Asylum going to protect you from that Absolute Law won't? And Absolute Law lets you swing through red guys as well.

[chokin]

He is that.:) He's just a bit better because he can do it fairly well without assistance. Shame he doesn't get protection from red to match the Piledriver's pro-blue.

Whereas I'm not running the splash, so I could easily go 20 land, 4 Daze, 4 Standstill, 4 Force, 4 Vial, 24 Merfolk if I really wanted.

Why this over Absolute Law, though? What besides like, Sword of Fire and Ice and Psionic Blast is Mark of Asylum going to protect you from that Absolute Law won't? And Absolute Law lets you swing through red guys as well.

I agree that Thrasher > Driver other than the protection deal. And yeah, that was the plan: 20/24/16 L/C/S or 20/22/18 L/C/S. Last night I ended up running 6 fetch 3 Tundra with no maindeck white. I picked Brainstorm over STP, which may or may not have been a mistake BS helped a lot, in 2 of the games I played STP would have been better. My sideboard was ugly and someone should have smacked my mother in the mouth for having me:

2 Enlightened Tutor (TADA! there's the white)
2 Propaganda (could have been Ghostly Prison to dodge REB/Pyroblast)
2 Chill (could have been CoP but I didn't want to see Needle)
2 Annul
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hibernation
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I was actually surprised that it worked as well as it did. Tutor was a cute plan but I don't think I'd ever do it again. I used it turn 1 to get a Chill and then play it vs Burn, but it would been better had it been Chill in the first place. It was only ever useful in one match where I had put in Jitte and Propaganda and tutored for Jitte.

[Piceli89]

You guys should really follow Nightmare's advice, the build with 12 lords is utterly ridicolous. I had a huge convinction that Wake Thrasher was set in stone for this deck, but after having tried Merfolk Sovereign I changed my mind. It's not that the new lord is that great (even if its ability is pretty good in situations of stasis with an oppo having a fattie on his side but aware of not taking too much damage), but try to play with 12 lords. I swear i ended the majority of my games with swinging 5/5s, built very quickly thanks to vial. If you manage to make the Vial + Standstill engine run a bit, you'll even draw in more lords. 12 pump effects, apart from more resistance from the sweeper effects such as Plague and Pyroclasm, give you a great solidity that may allow you even to have a chence to beat Goblins and Zoo g1, if you endure a bit in the lategame when this deck is at its weakest part.
Another thing I eventually understood is that Jitte is really needed in this deck, for a few simple reasons: 1) it may counterbalance the lack of any Merfolk good on its own. You can say that Thrasher is good on its own, but it's obvious this is an uncorrect statement, because against anything packing red, he will suck balls. And that's why i dropped him (12 lords can provide as much damage as he could), being red quite played, either in the form of goblins or burn. With Jitte, instead, even in the case they'd burn down all your lords (which is actually difficult for my build, but let's assume it happens), even a single Silvergill Adept equipped with Jitte, instead of being a tiny ass, can go for the distance.
2) Jitte is goodness personified, everyone knows it. It may win games alone, gain life and pump. But the -1/-1 part is the most interesting, because it allows us to run a form of removal without splashing for a 2nd colour and fuck up the manabase a bit. One more time, it's a solid response to Piledriver.
3) Jitte is really synergic with Standstill. When i did not run it, and maybe dropped Standstill in a position of slightly disadvantage (say, a 3/4 goyf on his side of the table and a vial @1 on mine), i wasn't totally sure that i could have been in time to ramp up a good army of merfolks and win the damage race. Now, with a vial under Standstill, this is a certainty. 4)Last but not least, this very deck suffers terribly Jitte; if it connects quickly in decks such as Dragon Stompy, or Faerie Stompy,or White aggro,there are really few things we can do. I can't remind myself the amount of games i lost because an opponent resolved a jitte, equipped to a dude, swing in for some damage, and then procedeed to regularly do 2x1 for my tiny merfolks, and I just couldn't recover from that. Now,with Jitte maindeck, you can destroy the enemy's one, which may seem to be stupid, but you can't imagine how much it saves your ass, i swear.

I'll let my list speak for itself. There are 2 relics to provide additional utility and cantrip, and because i want to pwn g1 Tarmogoyf, graveyard engines, ecc ecc in a cheap way. Ah, it also fills the cc1 curve, which i found to be a bit lacking.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
10 [MR] Island (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [M10] Merfolk Sovereign
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

It has performed REALLY good for me since now, i also beat goblins with huge on-steroids merfolks, and had won against decks to which Merfolks usually quite sucks (,WW, nonblue Vial-aggro with fatties and nasty equips, ecc). Still needs to test Zoo, though.
The fetches were included because i noticed, with my old list of the 'Folks running only Islands, that i ended up games with a shitload if Islands (and Vials) in my hands as dead cards. Now it happens slightly fewer times. I think that deck thinning may be worth the 1 lifeloss

[Raven Fire]

The fetches were included because i noticed, with my old list of the 'Folks running only Islands, that i ended up games with a shitload if Islands (and Vials) in my hands as dead cards. Now it happens slightly fewer times. I think that deck thinning may be worth the 1 lifelossIs this worth the risk of getting your fetch pop nailed by Stifle?

[_erbs_]

I would like to add something on the topic of Merfolk Sovereign and Wake Thrasher

For me adding another lord effect is really a big plus im currently using 11 lords 2 wake thrashers. The lords make your armies fatter and much harder to deal in combat and makes it more resiliant to sweepers.

Wake thrasher on the other hand is a great finisher and a great offensive creature on its own. Even with no lord effects he could dish out decent damage. Here is where he shines the most for me. While if your in the 12 lord route with no thrasher you have to wait for your creatures to get fatter so they go head to head with opposing creatures and sometimes during those waiting times a uncountered boardsweeper is really painful. To sum it all up going the lord route forces you to over commit most of the time especially on your lords while the thrasher with just serveral creatures you could still deal great damage.

I wanted to try adding 4 fetchlands aswell. But i was hesitant to try it because i was thinking if my lands got hit by stifles or got hit by moon effects it will be a big tempo loss on my part.

Here is my list
Lands [19]
2 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
14 Island

Utilities / Spells [18]
4 Aether Vial
2 Stifles
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ponder
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures [23]
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher

Since i've tried this list i felt the decks seems a step slower but has more muscle and become stronger with no boardsweeper late game as compared to before. My previous list ran 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought 1 Stifle in the sovereign spot.

[Cenarius]

Your list doesn't run Standstill's? Is that any good, I personally don't think so.

I think you should try the list Piceli89 is running. It seems so balanced. 12 lords and Adepts and Cursecathers, Wake Thrasher is unneccesary if you have that creaturebase. Jitte's, Standstill's, relic's mainboard. It just seems as the most consistent merfolk list I have ever seen.
You could doubt whether Relic of Progenitus is really needed in Mainboard, but with a Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose/Terravore/tombstalker infested metagame it is probably needed, although I'm not really sure.
Maybe you can test Threads of Disloyalty in that slot. A friend of mine did that and he was very pleased.

[chokin]

Your list doesn't run Standstill's? Is that any good, I personally don't think so.

I think you should try the list Piceli89 is running. It seems so balanced. 12 lords and Adepts and Cursecathers, Wake Thrasher is unneccesary if you have that creaturebase. Jitte's, Standstill's, relic's mainboard. It just seems as the most consistent merfolk list I have ever seen.
You could doubt whether Relic of Progenitus is really needed in Mainboard, but with a Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose/Terravore/tombstalker infested metagame it is probably needed, although I'm not really sure.
Maybe you can test Threads of Disloyalty in that slot. A friend of mine did that and he was very pleased.

While I agree that Standstill is needed, I disagree with what you say about Thrasher. If your opponent hits Wrath or Deeds or another mass sweeper, Wake Thrasher can still be at least a 4/4 or 5/5 every turn. Shit, with a Lord down pre-sweeper, he's even sicker.

[tivadar]

Can't we just agree that Sovereign is better against aggro decks playing burn and Thrasher is better against control decks that run sweepers? I mean, really, that's the truth :-P.

I'm personally liking a mix of:
2x Jitte
2x Threads
2x Relic
A little bit for every occasion, this is in a 61 card list with 20 lands

[Nightmare]

Stifle has been grating on my nerves lately. I'd really like to run something that doesn't make me hold open mana on turns 1-3. I'm thinking about Jitte in the maindeck. People seem to agree its good.

[Nelis]

I would leave Stifles out and play both Wake Thrasher and Sovereign possibly 4 of each.



Creatures [23]
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher


Why would you still need Tidal Warrior if you play Sovereigns?

[tivadar]

Yeah I dropped stifle a long time ago. Most of the time it's only good in the early game and requires you keeping open mana in the early game, which is something you don't want to do. Initially I replace the 3 stifles with 3 threads, then I started shifting things around and removed echoing maindeck as well, that's where I got the 2/2/2 split. I just started testing with Jitte, but yeah, I've really enjoyed the punch it packs. It's good in a lot of your bad matchups, namely goblins and sligh (also takes care of lavamancers).

[Dembones]

While I don't disagree about the hatred of topdecking a Stifle when you're in need of a threat, I think it's saved me against EE's, Deeds, and opposing Wastelands enough to warrant it's inclusion of at least a 3 of. If I have better plays than Stifling someone's fetch, I don't hold the mana open for it.

[tivadar]

While I don't disagree about the hatred of topdecking a Stifle when you're in need of a threat, I think it's saved me against EE's, Deeds, and opposing Wastelands enough to warrant it's inclusion of at least a 3 of. If I have better plays than Stifling someone's fetch, I don't hold the mana open for it.

Don't get me wrong, Stifle is huge against Deed and EE, but it's not as effective against fetches as it used to be because people now play around it. If they're on play, they're going to fetch prior to your first turn. If they're on draw (and don't need the mana), they'll just wait till the end of your second turn hoping you tap out, meaning in order to use Stifle, you need to have 1 mana open on both your first and second turns.

My main issue is actually against stifle in my opening hand along with vial. If anything, I'd board stifle against the likes of EE/Deed, but it strikes me there are just better cards for that. As for opposing wastelands, what are they wasting, your mutavaults? It's not like your manabase is terribly fragile to begin with.

Stifle is a good card that shines against some mass destruction and goblins. But it's original purpose was for land destruction for a tempo boost, and I just don't think it does that any more. That's why I went to Threads, it's a huge tempo boost against anything playing powerful low-costing creatures, which is just such a large part of the meta. That and it requires the mana on 3rd turn not first, when I'd prefer to be playing my Vial.

[Tacosnape]

Stifle has been grating on my nerves lately. I'd really like to run something that doesn't make me hold open mana on turns 1-3. I'm thinking about Jitte in the maindeck. People seem to agree its good.

I agree. Holding mana open is the suck. Maindeck Jitte has been very solid for me. I started with 3, went down to 2. Two works very nicely.

As for my last two slots, I've been tinkering both with Sovereign and Misdirection. Misdirection is crafty, incredible when it works, and doesn't make me tap out, but it's inconsistent. Soveriegn + Thrasher puts me very heavy on the 3-curve. I -love- having Sovereign and Thrasher on the board together, though.

[_erbs_]

My take on Standstill...
Yes its an awesome card especially when paired with aether vial. But here are my reasons why i pick ponder over standstill.

1. I dislike running too many colorless mana. Though i haven't tried running 4 mutavualt paired with standstill. Currently im happy with my 5 colorless setup as compared to before which i was running 6-7 3 muta 3-4 wasteland. I don't get too much problem in colored mana.

2. Standstill is a dead card if you don't a threat on the board or can't use it aswell when the opposing threat is much bigger than yours, no vial and no manlands can't abuse it aswell. What are the chances of you having no threats since your an aggro deck you asked. At times it happens even if you have 20 beaters in where you only draw 1-2 creatures and all the cards your drawing are countermagics or artifacts or the opponent has bigger creature compared to yours.

3. Ponder on the other hand only nets you 1 card but digs 3 cards and arrange them in any order on how you want to play them. ponder is never a dead card at any point. the shuffle effect is awesome aswell especially when you look all the top 3 cards your getting are all lands.

At times i miss standstill when i want to refill my hand but i guess it depends on how the deck and the board is composed aswell.

@Nelis
I still play tidal warrior because against non island user's paired with loa's your creatures go on instant damage the mana trick is useful especially when times like you draw only a single island and all the succeeding lands are colorless.

Yes sovereign can give you unblockable ability but thats only 1 creature and if you don't have a wake thrasher on board your creature would just swing for 3-4 damage depending on your threats.

About Stifles....
Well i still use them because my board consists of 2 more stifles and 3-4 phyrexian dreadnought. the 2 stifles are precautions to boardsweepers like EE & pernicious. It also provides tempo boost when i could hit a unsuspecting player with it.

Threads and Relic
They are both nice cards but i don't want to use them in my mainboard. I want my game 1 to be as offensive as possible. Thats why my board consists of dreadnoughts and relic, threads, sower etc.

As for the Jitte
All i can say is when jitte hits the board and your a creature deck it will give your opponent tons of problems. Eventhough my dudes are fatter now with sovereign jitte is still excellent.

What i really want to ask as im having mixed feelings about are the fetchlands. Are the 4 to X fetchlands a nice addition or not ? I've tried running 4 i seldom felt its impact.

[Concallesco]

I've picked up Merfolk lately, and in my testing as well, the 12 lords are nuts. I am no longer nearly as afraid of other aggro decks.

I also second the argument for Jitte MD. It's just so incredibly powerful, and it gives your guys a chance against the more efficient creatures of other decks.


EDIT: I had a crazy idea though. What if we took the aggressiveness 12 lords provide to the extreme? What if we went aggro?

For example, as a creature base:

4 Cursecatcher
4 LoA
4 Stonybrook Banneret
4 Silvergill
4 Reejerey
4 Sovereign
4 Tidal Courier
X Wake thrasher
X Cold-Eye Selkie

The issue of course is that we'd have to cut a lot of our control suite, Stifles, Standstills, Dazes? I'm not sure if that's worth the trade-off though.

The obvious question then becomes whether all-out-aggro-merfolk is a better aggro deck than Goblins or Zoo. So far as I know, these comparisons can be made:

Merfolk pluses:

+Islandwalk
+A lot of card advantage (Selkies, Silvergills, Tidal Couriers is draws more cards among them than Ringleaders and Matrons alone, although the card quality is a bit less since we don't have a Matron ourselves)
+Force of Will can probably still be left in MD
+12 Lords
+Less vulnerable to Stifle/Wasteland

Merfolk minuses:
-No removal to clear a path
-Risks of overextending, since a lot of guys are only good with lords.
-Creatures weaker individually
-Fewer ways to cheat on mana (no 1-mana 3/3s, 2-mana 5/6s; also no Lackey, and Stonybrook Banneret is a lot weaker than Warchief)

Although I suppose that pro-con list looks a lot like it would without the Bannerets and Tidal Couriers and whatnot...

[Dembones]

My main issue is actually against stifle in my opening hand along with vial. If anything, I'd board stifle against the likes of EE/Deed, but it strikes me there are just better cards for that. As for opposing wastelands, what are they wasting, your mutavaults? It's not like your manabase is terribly fragile to begin with.



Yeah, I've stifled Wasteland targeting my Mutavault a couple of times, not out of fear of it weakening my mana base, but because it was all I had along with a lord or a Cursecatcher or something.

And like I said, I hate Stifle like everyone else. I know it's not always relevant, but when it is, it can be an absolute blowout in your favor. I just think it's a really nice tool to have access to when those chances occur.

[Tacosnape]

@going All-Merfolk Aggro:

As a general rule, cutting good cards for bad cards is a terrible idea. Therefore I can't possibly get behind any list of Merfolk that runs any higher than 24 threats, ever. You want Vial in non-elf Tribal decks. You want Force in Blue. You want Daze in blue Aggro, esp. with Vial. You want Standstill when you're running Vial and Manlands. Factor in 20 lands (I still like 21), and that leaves you with 24 spots to fill.

Now, assuming you want some other neat little tricks from the Jitte/Stifle/Misdirection/Relic group, you're eating into those Merfolk slots.

I'd like to tinker around with a 24-merfolk build, for sure. The idea of 12 lords AND Wake Thrashers sounds incredible. I just don't know if I'm willing to give up that last 2-4 slots of utility.

[Hightower]

Aggro Merfolk isn't completely new though =P I used to play it back in the days, this list is from 8-25 2008... But that's a long time ago, now even I, have been converted to the regular "Standstill + Mutavault" build, because in the end it just felt alot more stable.



I've just come back from Grand Prix: Copenhagen, Legacy side event (63 players) playing 7 rounds of swiss then standings - no top8 due to time constraints.... I played Merfolks, to a 6-1 finish, making 3rd place with this list:

// Lands
14 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Tidal Courier
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Stonybrook Banneret
4 Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Daze

// Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Stifle
3 Chill
3 Annul
1 Gaea's Blessing


Even with the new lord out I wouldn't go back to "aggro folks", Banneret is really subpar and Tidal Courier is the worst of the Apocalypse-cycle, a 1/2 body for 4 that may get you 1, max 2 Merfolks - keep in mind that you will never get the same density as Goblins, alot of gob-lists have 4x Vial as their only non-gob card main, which mean they have like 34 quality gobs to flip over with their Ringleader - Merfolk will never get above 24, unless you pack bad filler Merfolks like Courier itself, Selkie, Banneret etc.
Besides like Taco says, you really want 4x Standstill 4x Daze 4 FoW main, because they are just that good... Though I placed well at that event, I think it was more due to lucky pairings than my deck being really good.

[_erbs_]

@going All-Merfolk Aggro:

As a general rule, cutting good cards for bad cards is a terrible idea. Therefore I can't possibly get behind any list of Merfolk that runs any higher than 24 threats, ever. You want Vial in non-elf Tribal decks. You want Force in Blue. You want Daze in blue Aggro, esp. with Vial. You want Standstill when you're running Vial and Manlands. Factor in 20 lands (I still like 21), and that leaves you with 24 spots to fill.

Now, assuming you want some other neat little tricks from the Jitte/Stifle/Misdirection/Relic group, you're eating into those Merfolk slots.

I'd like to tinker around with a 24-merfolk build, for sure. The idea of 12 lords AND Wake Thrashers sounds incredible. I just don't know if I'm willing to give up that last 2-4 slots of utility.

Hello,
The 11 lord setup + 2 wake thrashers for me is working well. It gives me more muscle power as compared to before.

The only thing i think that would cause a problem if your running the 8cc mana setup you might have a hard time casting your double blue and if you can't cast it on time its tempo loss on your part and the added lord can perform to its potential. The added lord also makes your curve go higher and a step slower compared to before but its worth it for me. Atleast in my current setup im seldom delayed by the colored mana.

As for the utilities i guess it all depends on your meta, my meta is goyf infested aswell but with the added lord i just laugh at a 4/5 goyf stairing at me especially when i have a trasher on board. Pre Merfolk sovereign the average merfolk is just 3/3 to 4/4 now its 4/4 to 5/5. I don't know if its a good thing aswell but the new setup in where you have 12 lords your late game is boosted alot by it. The longer the game gets the bigger your dudes are compared to a goyf.

I dislike going allout aggro and removing countermagic aswell.

[tivadar]

To me, the advantage this deck has over goblins is its control elements. Goblins can't Force of Will or Daze. That's *why* this deck is better than theirs. Removing that just seems like a bad idea. That and standstill is such a better card engine than courier. Granted, courier is always relevant where standstill is only sometimes relevant, but standstill is 2 mana less and nets you 1.5 cards more...

[Concallesco]

Ah. I understand now. Thank you guys. As I said, it was probably a stupid idea.

I have a question regarding Stifles, since I'm seeing that the opinion towards it is generally negative. Is running Stifle MD now basically only if you see a lot of Fetching in your meta? If not enough decks fetch, then is it no longer worth its slot?

[thesilentpyro]

Stifles are personal preference (I run three maindeck, but those slots are up in the air currently), and it also depends on how much of the deck you want to devote to the mana-denial strategy, which is a large part of the deck, although that aspect seems to be waning a bit lately. Facing fetches make stifles much stronger, but they are still significantly useful if you're seeing a lot of Deeds or such--hell, you can even stifle Gobbo's vial activation if you need to.

[holkenborg]

Can't we just agree that Sovereign is better against aggro decks playing burn and Thrasher is better against control decks that run sweepers? I mean, really, that's the truth :-P.

I think this is kind of the right conclusion of the Wake Thrasher vs. Merfolk Sovereign discussion. Thrasher is a better topdeck being a big beater, but Sovereign has more synergy.

About the list with the white splash. Given an aggro meta with little control decks that use WoG or Deed, this would be my suggested list:

21 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Mutavault
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

20 Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept

19 Other spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Swords to Plowshares

15 Sideboard
2 Absolute Law
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not saying this is THE correct list or anything. Just wanted to post it as a context for three issues:

1. Friends of mine suggest Burrenton Forge-Tender as replacements for Absolute Law in the sideboard saying that it can be played T1 and block Piley as main advantages. I believe that Absolute Law is better (in combination with the StP's and Jittes).

2. Maindeck I switched (from Nightmare's list) 3 Stifle with 3 StP. Given an aggro meta, wouldn't this be better than 3 StP side? I don't like Umezawa's Jitte main in this version of the deck for the mana curve would become too high with the 8 lords costing 3 mana.

3. I realize the sideboard has only 2-offs and admit it is still under heavy construction, but their is synergy. But maybe I should cut the Threads and add a Disenchant/Relic/Canonist.

Just wondering about your thoughts.

[Elvish-Champion]

In the last 2 or 3 weeks I have tested a very good Mono-Blue list. In my opinion it does very well.
I've played many games against UR-Dreadstill, Nassif.deck and Canadian Threshold


MAIN// 60


Lands// 20

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

Creatures// 22

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Cold-Eyed-Selkie
2 Merfolk Sovereign

Spells// 18

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Æther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte


SIDEBOARD// 15

3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wipe Away / Echoing Truth
3 Back to Basics


I'm not very proud on my SB. I think there is something missing, but I don't know exactly. In many games i cannot decide which cards I should get in. :tongue:
I need some good improvement suggestions, because i want to try this deck in about 10 days on a (I hope so :smile: ) huge event in germany.

I hope you can help me. :smile:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I need some good improvement suggestions, because i want to try this deck in about 10 days on a (I hope so :smile: ) huge event in germany.

I hope you can help me. :smile:

I can't think of anything off-hand about your sideboard without knowing more about what decks you expect to play against...

As far as the main-deck, I would strongly advise you cut Cold-Eyed Selkie, I'm that card's least-biggest fan... As far as what to use in those slots, I'd try out two Echoing Truth perhaps. This would free up a couple sideboard slots to play with...

I'll think and get back to you with more ideas.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I need some good improvement suggestions, because i want to try this deck in about 10 days on a (I hope so :smile: ) huge event in germany.

I hope you can help me. :smile:
You could stand to include another island or remove a mutavault or both. 12 blue sources is kind of archaic to begin with, but your double blue requirement is very high as well. I would definitely replace selkie, but I'm not sure about truth. Blue "removal" is kind of drab so you may just be better with 2 more sovereigns.

I won't comment much about your board since it's so meta-dependent, but if you have hydroblasts, I'd run a 2/2 split with BEB for needle protection.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Yesterday i joined a small tourny in our place and i just ended up with 1 booster pack as a consolation prize.

The general meta was blue aggro (merfolks & seastompy) but the Champion was RGW zoo. All the merfolk decks got owned by RGW zoo.


After thinking on what has transpired here where some of my thoughts..

• Is playing stilfe nought a good addition to merfolk instead of adding utilities like relic, etc.... if you can kill your opponent quickly why not ???...

• The 12 lord combo for me is really excellent but... slows the deck... with the 12 lord setup im beginning to change my mind on the wakethrasher issue, trasher might not be needed after all if you can prevent a boardsweeper for your alpha strike.
+ Trasher don't need any alpha strike to deal big damage thus at the offensive end seems like a mini dreadnought
+ A good creature after a boardsweeping effect
- 12 lords plus 2 more thrasher makes the deck slow, especially when you can't get an early vial or continous early land drops.

• Would adding 1 or 2 curve creatures better if your using a 12 lord setup over adding utility card (relic of progen, echoing truth, etc.) to make the deck much faster ?
If yes what would be good choices ?? Right now the 2 curved creatures i could think off are:
- Waterfront bouncer
- Grimoire Thief
- Rootwater Thief
- Inkphathom Inflitrator (offensive only)

• Is adding the 1/2 curved creatures better as compared to the stifle nought combo ??
> Stilfe nought gives:
+ More landy cards
+ Faster clock
- Jitte (well atleast if i where to build it i'll remove the 2 jitte's to avoid too much artifact at hand to feed for fow.
- Needs a 2 card combo and when stifle gets countered or the dreadnought killed you've just lost a 2 for 1 card disadvantage
- No synergy with silvergill adpeth assuming no aether vial

> Adding 1/2 Creatures
+ More cards to pitch for force of will
+ Good synergy with silvergill adpeth
+ Can use Jitte
- Slower clock
- Can be killed by REB
- Needs lords to make them suitable for head to head combat... if you think about it its like a 2 card combination, but since you have 12 lords the chances are much higher.

• Is 4 to X fetchlands need ??
I still don't know the answer to this...

• I've seen games in where mana screw has been the issue in a 12 lord setup (4 mutavualts + 4 wasteland) finding the 2nd :u: mana seems problematic at times... its risky to cast a standstill aswell if you don't get any of your 4 man lands and your opponent has 1 2/2 creature on the table.

• In a standstill setup if you don't have a vial out it gets stuck in your hand or could be fatal if your not sure that you really have the upper hand over your opponent sample. Your opponent has 3 open mana and 1 3/3 wild nactl you have x2 lord of atlantis in play. You cast standstill guessing you had the upperhand via trading blows your opponent but your opponent casts x2 lightning bolts to kill your x2 lords you have no counter magic to stop it standstill resloves... your opponent thanks you for it...

Im not saying that all standstill play are like that but when things happens like that standstill could be such a pain...

[Skeggi]

• Is playing stilfe nought a good addition to merfolk instead of adding utilities like relic, etc.... if you can kill your opponent quickly why not ???...
I've played alot with the StifleNought combo in Merfolk. It's very strong indeed, but I cut them down for Wake Thrashers. A Wake Thrasher won't get 2-for-1'ed, and often you sit with a dead Dreadnought in your hand waiting on that Stifle. StifleNought is very strong, but not consistent. I would rather run Wake Thrashers. Especially since the meta is overrun by Qasali Pridemages.


• The 12 lord combo for me is really excellent but... slows the deck... with the 12 lord setup im beginning to change my mind on the wakethrasher issue, trasher might not be needed after all if you can prevent a boardsweeper for your alpha strike.
If you don't need Wake Thrasher, you don't need Phyrexian Dreadnought. The 'if' you can prevent a boardsweeper is a very big if. You better be damn sure you can do it.


• Would adding 1 or 2 curve creatures better if your using a 12 lord setup over adding utility card (relic of progen, echoing truth, etc.) to make the deck much faster ?When Merfolk Sovereign got spoiled, I started playing with the following creature base: 4 Lord of Atlantis, Merrow Reejerey, Merfolk Sovereign, Silvergill Adept and Cursecatcher. 3 Wake Thrasher. Basically it's Nightmare's list with Wake Thrashers instead of Stifles. I prefer Wake Thrashers over other creatures because a) they're broken, b) they have cc3 which is nice if your opponent has cb; and it's also nice because Vial@3 rocks a bit harder. You'll have no doubt if you should keep that 1 Vial at 2 or pump it to 3. 3 is the right number now.


• Is 4 to X fetchlands need ??
Only if you splash a color. In monoblue, for deckthinning, it's not worth it. Partially because one of our biggest enemies is Tempo Thresh, and when you depend on fetches you're just giving them the game.

• I've seen games in where mana screw has been the issue in a 12 lord setup (4 mutavualts + 4 wasteland) finding the 2nd :u: mana seems problematic at times... its risky to cast a standstill aswell if you don't get any of your 4 man lands and your opponent has 1 2/2 creature on the table.
Perhaps you should have mulled. That said, I am convinced that the proper manabase for mono blue Merfolk is: 4 Mutavault, 4 Wasteland, 13 Island.

• In a standstill setup if you don't have a vial out it gets stuck in your hand or could be fatal if your not sure that you really have the upper hand over your opponent sample. Your opponent has 3 open mana and 1 3/3 wild nactl you have x2 lord of atlantis in play. You cast standstill guessing you had the upperhand via trading blows your opponent but your opponent casts x2 lightning bolts to kill your x2 lords you have no counter magic to stop it standstill resloves... your opponent thanks you for it...In this situation I wouldn't cast Standstill because you can take poison on it he'll bolt a Lord (and if it's not a bolt it's a PtE). After that the clock is in his favour, and he has alot of plays to break Standstill in your end step (if he needs to, if you draw a Mutavault for instance). In this scenario I would attack with 1 Lord each turn, baiting his Nacatl. If he blocks, drop Standstill. If he attacks, you should block and if he doesn't play any other creature you can play Standstill. G2/3 you should side out Standstill.

[_erbs_]

@Skeggi
Thanks on your replies..
Your point on the "if" for the boardsweeper is really big indead i have to agree with you aswell with it since the standard merfolk has only 7-8 counter magics. So boardsweepers has a good chance in resolving..

Im guessing your creature base is around 22-23 (12 lordsetup), 20 of them are the standard merfolks the 2-3 are wakethrashers...

The vial counters at 3 is also nice indeed but when it gets hit before going to 3 you might have a hard time in recovering by casting another vial or hard casting your creatures.

Now alot of decks packs built-in hates for artifacts or someway of dealing with them. So if you have 14-15 3cc creatures you might have a hardtime dealing with fast decks like mono green stompy or zoo if you don't disrupt them early via stifling there fetchlands or have a continous flow of land and creatures early on to match there early pressure.

The plus for the 14 3cc creatures is against countertop which is a pain to deal with aswell.

The standard merfolk build has no form of spot removal aswell just jitte assuming your using it...

I know snakeform is crappy and slow, but giving somesort of removal in the mono blue setup be okay ??? Just another thought when faced with a lifelink creature like rhox war monk or knight of the medowgrain trading blows with them seems pointless....

[tivadar]

I know snakeform is crappy and slow, but giving somesort of removal in the mono blue setup be okay ??? Just another thought when faced with a lifelink creature like rhox war monk or knight of the medowgrain trading blows with them seems pointless....

I'd been running Threads of Disloyalty as my creature removal, but snakeform is an interesting option as well as it also 2 for 1's assuming you're blocking their creature. Advantages and disadvantages:

Snakeform
+ Mono-blue
+ Works on all creatures
+ Cantrips if you have a creature on the board
- Requires a creature to block
- Must be attacking/blocking to be effective

Threads
+ Can be played with an empty board
+ Works with things such as confidant/lavamancer, without attack
+ 2 for 1's onto board (tempo) rather than into hand (card advantage)
- Requires 2 blue mana
- Doesn't work against high casting costs

[_erbs_]

Hello tivadar,
Are you using threads mainboard or in the SB ?

A few things you forgot to consider as a + to Snakeform well atleast for me...
+ For snakeform for being instant speed
+ Better casting cost since it only requires 1 :u:

Both be used by mono blue decks. As for the 2 for 1 on the board it could be a +/- since if threads gets disenchanted your back to square one well as its on to hand it could be a creature, utility, land, etc.

Are you on the 12 lord setup + thrasher build aswell ? how is it so far ?

Is the 12 lord setup + thrasher the way to go ?
If so is creature removal needed in the main deck so that the deck is prepared to face fast decks like zoo, gobs, etc.

I have no problems with the 12 lord setup + 2-3 thrashers since im currently running that kind of setup. The only thing thats been abit off is when faced against fast decks the deck struggles and is overwhelmed before you could build up your troops.

[tivadar]

Hello tivadar,
Are you using threads mainboard or in the SB ?
A few things you forgot to consider as a + to Snakeform well atleast for me...
+ For snakeform for being instant speed
+ Better casting cost since it only requires 1 :u:

Yep, threads main. I've found that in the cases where it's not relevant, it's at least pitchable to FoW, which can't be said of Jitte. Where it *is* relevant, it's game changing. By mono-blue, I meant it requires one blue mana, as you say here. Sorry. As for the whole instant thing, that's not such a big deal in my mind, as it really only applies to things with haste or if they're running vial.


Are you on the 12 lord setup + thrasher build aswell ? how is it so far ?

Is the 12 lord setup + thrasher the way to go ?
If so is creature removal needed in the main deck so that the deck is prepared to face fast decks like zoo, gobs, etc.

I'm avoiding the 12 lord + thrasher build like the plague. Mainly because of your last point. I've found even with just 8 3cc creatures, the deck feels slow against zoo/sligh. Thow in 4 more and this gets much worse. I've tried thrashers, I've tried sovereigns, and with both, it's still slow. One could argue I need stifle, but the fact is that sligh really only needs 1-2 lands anyways.

[chokin]

I'm still waiting on my last 2 Thrashers and 4 Sovereigns and 3 Mutavaults, but I have done some testing with the last ~10 slots. Stifle is a hit or miss with my meta so it's been a 3-4 of or +splash and STP.

Ponder vs Brainstorm in Merfolk from my point of view.

Brainstorm:
+Instant. I can play it after Standstill cracks or crack an opposing Standstill EoT.
+Replaces bad cards with better cards right away.
+Allows me to sit with mana open Turn 1 if I have Stifle.
-No/low fetch to rip those bad cards off the top.

Ponder:
Is basically the inverse of Brainstorm.

Then I've been thinking of mono blue removal. Snakeform has crossed my mind a few times as a 2 of. You guys already touched on that though. Pongify is another removal spell, but giving them a 3/3 is bad. It could turn a Lord into a stupid monkey, but I don't want to necessarily turn a Lackey into a 3/3. Echoing Truth is a "removal" spell I've been thinking on but have turned away from. Great against tokens, and it hits Moat maindecked...but it only buys a turn against nontokens (unless we counter it). Also it's not resolving against a CB.

Alternatively there is creature steal spells. Threads feels like the best. But I've been running Sower of Temptation because I don't own Threads. Shackles may be another option, but probably won't steal anything bigger than a 3/x or 4/x unless you run a lot of Islands.

I've pretty much decided to splash white temporarily just to get removal in the maindeck and to open up sideboard options like Disenchant, Absolute Law, Oblivion Ring and more.

[_erbs_]

Yep, threads main. I've found that in the cases where it's not relevant, it's at least pitchable to FoW, which can't be said of Jitte. Where it *is* relevant, it's game changing. By mono-blue, I meant it requires one blue mana, as you say here. Sorry. As for the whole instant thing, that's not such a big deal in my mind, as it really only applies to things with haste or if they're running vial.



I'm avoiding the 12 lord + thrasher build like the plague. Mainly because of your last point. I've found even with just 8 3cc creatures, the deck feels slow against zoo/sligh. Thow in 4 more and this gets much worse. I've tried thrashers, I've tried sovereigns, and with both, it's still slow. One could argue I need stifle, but the fact is that sligh really only needs 1-2 lands anyways.

How many threads are you running maindeck ?

Hmm.. interesting.. can you post your creature list ?
You've mentioned that you tried the 12 lord setup and yes it felt that the deck is slow but for what its worth i think its okay. It gives your armies the muscle to fiight head to head with other bigger creatures.

[tivadar]

I'm not arguing against 12 lords entirely, but definitely against 12 lords + 2-3 thrashers. The list I'm playing with is 61 cards primarily because I wanted the extra land, but didn't really want to cut anything for it :-P. The ratio is still pretty good:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher/Merfolk Sovereign
4 Cursecatcher/(Grimoire Thief)

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Relic of Progenitus/(Stifle)

4 Aether Vial
13 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

So, you'll notice the Grimoire Thief. Basically, I *don't* like stifle with 4 vial + 4 cursecatcher, and cursecatcher has been less than stellar for me couple with daze, so I was playing around with removing him and putting in another 2cc. And honestly, I was debating Chalice a bit. Our 1cc is pretty low and the thing that hurts us the most is direct damage. Probably not the best of ideas, but it just flitted through my head.

[Brizentine Empire]

I don't like the 12-lord set-up, I think it makes the curve far too high for this deck which also runs 4 Wastelands and Mutavaults. At that point, you'll find yourself tapping the Wastelands and Mutavaults for mana instead of their intended purpose. Also, why play Wasteland without stifle? Of course Wasteland is fine on its own, but its so much stronger with stifle so that you can deny both fetches and duals, helping the deck's biggest rival, tempo thresh. I also play 2 relic mainboard because it is AMAZING against the two biggest decks in the meta right now, Thresh and Ichorid combo. Plus 2 Echoing Truth provides the removal that you HAVE to have. Question: what does the 12 lord + Wake Thrasher lists do when their opponent plays Moat? Without FoW, you lose.

[ansset]

If you have hydroblasts, I'd run a 2/2 split with BEB for needle protection.

wat

[_erbs_]

Hello Brizentine Empire,
Well moat crossed my mind during the part in where i was thinking of using stiflenought or thrashers in the maindeck.

Yes moat, slihana ledge walker, etc can give the deck a hard time but the percentage in which they are seen in current meta is quite low , thats why i didn't bother to bring that up. Moat costs alot in our place ($100 each)

As for the 12 lord setup, currently i don't run standstill and the my mana config are: 2 mutavualts, 3 wasteland & 14 island i use ponder over standstill, ponder is doing okay okay but not excellent.

With my current land setup i don't have problems with the 12 lords nor feel any pressure from my opponents wasteland slowing me down. But if my lands got hit by vindicate or sinkholes or i don't get a vial online early i can really feel the sting of the 3 curve. Thats why i was asking others who are using the 12 lord setup if increasing the 2 curve or adding the stiflenought combo could help.

Their are times in where i wish i had standstill drawing 3 cards is really really awesome especially against burn decks that run a small amount of creatures, but drawing those 3 cards requires abit of work aswell to be at your advantage (board position).

@tivadar
hmmm... i think cutting cursecatcher is a not such a good idea,
Cursecatercher is ...
+ early 1 drop, removing the 1 creature drop will also remove pressure from your opponent
+ protection or tempo gain early game
+ helps in counter wars
- abit dead late game if your opponent has lots of mana.

i haven't tried running 4 thrashers.. the most number ive used them was 3, but i feel 2 is the right number when you want to use him...

I want to try grimoire theif in my upcoming playtest sessions, how is he performing by the way?

Have your tried running 2 jitte mainboard ? I guess relic is a meta call in our place mainboard relic doesn't have much worth as compared to providing your deck more offensive tools.

There are alot of thresh like decks in our place aswell thats why i was asking if creature removal should be part of the main deck... in our area atleast the only use of relic against thresh is making tarmogoyf small... the mongose can easly be meet heads up by your creatures which is bigger when your lords are out.

Bant decks that runs trygon predator and rhox war monk gives me headaches aswell.. if my vial gets killed by pridemage or trygon my creature deployment is slowed by it greatly and trading blows with rhox war monk is a such a pain....

[Cubsfan960]

Hey everbody. I know that there was a discussion about this a while back, however I was just once again wondering what is the better splash. I'm running white right now since my meta is full of zoo type decks. Also would running Sovereign be worth it? It seems like he can only help this matchup. Thanks for any advice.

[nodahero]

As an option we could try the Lorwryn block merfolk that reduces the cost of our merfolk by :1: . It seems like it would elminate some of the mana issues with the 12 lords (which I love) and also would give us a large edge in the mirror by saving so much mana.

[Tacosnape]

Won a small tournament with this today. 2-0 against Landstill, Rock, Sligh, and Mono-Black Train Wreck. My list was as follows.

13 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Misdirection

SB:
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Submerge
3 Pithing Needle

Some brief notes:

Against Landstill, game 1, my turn four play was as follows: Vial out a Reejerey, play a Lord, untap Vial, Vial out another Reejerey, play Cursecatcher, untap Vial, Vial out a Thrasher. I won next turn with a Force backup.

Misdirection was really good. Misdirected a Force, a Hymn, and two burn spells, one of which was game-saving against Sligh (The other it didn't matter a whole lot, as chaining three Standstills early won this one. I love that between it and Jitte I don't have to ever keep mana open for anything except the postboard Hydroblasts on occasion.

Regrettably, The Thrasher vs. Sovereign thing never really came up much. I kept looking for it. I never once wanted Thrasher to be Soveriegn, but on the flipside it only mattered that it was Thrasher once in all the eight games, so I didn't learn much here. I'm leaning towards the assertion that Thrasher's better in control metagames and Soveriegn's better in aggro.

Wasn't a fan of Submerge. I really haven't been since I stuck it in. I keep wanting it to do a little more. I'm contemplating trying Threads or just flat out Control Magic/Sower to deal with higher CMC guys. Also contemplating Hibernation just for its strength against Elves, Progenitus, Garruk, etc. Might also be more Red hate in the form of Chill, which might be good with all the Cursecatcher/Daze stuff. Whichever.

[Finn]

I think we can agree that Thrasher is better against Control and Sovereign is better against aggro. So the issue becomes which matchup can afford to give a bit of ground, and which one needs the help? For me, Sovereign has been making more sense. For something like Goyf Sligh (a really bad matchup), he pretty well has to burn every lord or risk them getting out of range for everything except Red Blasts. I figure that Vial becomes a real problem for him in this case, as you can pump your dudes on the spot.

Also, I have always been happy with Chill. It's just not for every metagame.

[tivadar]

For something like Goyf Sligh (a really bad matchup), he pretty well has to burn every lord or risk them getting out of range for everything except Red Blasts.

I see your point, but doesn't he also have to burn wakethrasher? Typically thrasher ends the game in a swing or two. Obviously the new lord is better against things like pyroclasm, however.

[Finn]

I see your point, but doesn't he also have to burn wakethrasher? Yes, he does. But if you haven't seen how this plays out yet, just walk through the scenario in your head. The opponent can choose not to burn Thrasher right away. He can't really do that with lords though. He is in trouble once you have three lords in play. Then he has to spend two bolts or something similar to kill off any of your creatures. And pray you don't have counters. Thrasher can be chump blocked and killed the next turn.

[Tacosnape]

Yes, he does. But if you haven't seen how this plays out yet, just walk through the scenario in your head. The opponent can choose not to burn Thrasher right away. He can't really do that with lords though. He is in trouble once you have three lords in play. Then he has to spend two bolts or something similar to kill off any of your creatures. And pray you don't have counters. Thrasher can be chump blocked and killed the next turn.

Just as a point? Your opponent chumping Thrasher and then burning him next turn is just as good as your opponent spending two burn spells on a Soveriegn. You get two cards for one either way.

[Finn]

Yeah, except he is not dead meat if he can continue to burn your other stuff. Lords prevent that.

[_erbs_]

I think we can agree that Thrasher is better against Control and Sovereign is better against aggro. So the issue becomes which matchup can afford to give a bit of ground, and which one needs the help? For me, Sovereign has been making more sense. For something like Goyf Sligh (a really bad matchup), he pretty well has to burn every lord or risk them getting out of range for everything except Red Blasts. I figure that Vial becomes a real problem for him in this case, as you can pump your dudes on the spot.

Also, I have always been happy with Chill. It's just not for every metagame.

I think you've hit the spot on the Thrasher vs Sovereign issue. Generally control decks have boardsweeper and spot removals. Those anti creature cards can easily kill all our creatures expect for red and black sweepers (expect for damnation).

So in the sweeper issue generally Sovereign would be a better choice since it could boost your survivability but when your playing Sovereign you need to over commit do deal good damage as compared to Thrasher he alone could swing big thus conserving your creatures if he gets hit by a spot removal or boardsweeper.

Now analyzing on how merfolk runs..
We are a aggro/light control deck our general game plan is to cast and attack. Both sovereign and thrasher have 3cc generally the 3 curve is 10-12 in a 20-22 creature count setup. In that setup 12 of your creatures are almost sure inclussion (4 cursecatcher, 4 loa & 4 slivergill = 12)

If we follow that numbers it would say that the chances of us casting 3cc creatures over 1cc or 2cc is 40% abit high but still we could see the margin of casting X creatures before we could cast 3cc.

Now lets use the following creature drop as a typical routine drop.
SCENE 1
LORD EFFECT (sovereign)
1st turn
1 island casting cursecatcher
2nd turn
2 island casting loa, swing cusercatcher = 2pts of dmg
3rd turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting sovereign, swing loa and curse = 6pts of dmg
4th turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting standstill or casting none, swing all your creatures (mutavualt + curse + loa + sovereign) = 13pts of dmg

TOTAL DMG = 21pts of dmg

THRASHER EFFECT
1st turn
1 island casting cursecatcher
2nd turn
2 island casting loa, swing cusercatcher = 2pts of dmg
3rd turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting thrasher, swing loa and curse = 4pts of dmg
4th turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting standstill or casting none, swing all your creatures (2island + 1mutavualt untapping = 4/4 thrasher dmg + mutavualt + curse + loa) = 11pts of dmg

TOTAL DMG = 17pts of dmg

SCENE 2
LORD EFFECT (sovereign)
1st turn
1 island casting aether vial
2nd turn
1 counter on vial, 1 island 1 wasteland, casting standstill, eot vial out cursecatcher
3rd turn
2 counter on vial, 2 island 1 wasteland, swing (cursecatcher + vial out loa, opponents cracks open standstill targeting loa by swords to plowshares, you let STP resolve) = 1pt of damage + 3 cards
4th turn
3 counter on vial, 2 island 1 wasteland, casting sovereign, swing (curse + vial out reejerey) = 3pts of damage
5th turn
3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + sovereign + reejerey) = 9pts of damage
6th turn
3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + sovereign + reejerey) = 9pts of damage

TOTAL DAMAGE = 22pts of dmg

THRASHER EFFECT
1st turn
1 island casting aether vial
2nd turn
1 counter on vial, 1 island 1 wasteland, casting standstill, eot vial out cursecatcher
3rd turn
2 counter on vial, 2 island 1 wasteland, swing (cursecatcher + vial out loa, opponents cracks open standstill targeting loa by swords to plowshares, you let STP resolve) = 1pt of damage + 3 cards
4th turn
3 counter on vial, 2 island 1 wasteland, casting thrasher, swing (curse + vial out reejerey) = 2pts of damage
5th turn
3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + thrasher (+5dmg) + reejerey) = 10pts of damage
6th turn
3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + thrasher (+8dmg) + reejerey) = 13pts of damage

TOTAL DAMAGE = 26pts of dmg

Assuming we follow that creature deployment will see that both of them can deal almost the same amount of damage. If non of your creature gets killed.

I guess it will boils down to the player's preference if he/she will use thrasher or go sovereign. But in order to follow that curve i still believe we need to boost the 2 curve more to have a consistent creature drop on the 2nd or 3rd turn.

Both of them are permanent dependent to deal bigger damage. In order to that we add hard to kill permanents like relic etc for thrasher, creatures for the sovereign. The problem with having lesser creature is that if your opponent's deck has only a limited number of creature removal he/she will just kill your thrasher.

As for me im going to playtest the build with no thrashers and adding more 2cc creatures.

[Skeggi]

THRASHER EFFECT
1st turn
1 island casting cursecatcher
2nd turn
2 island casting loa, swing cusercatcher = 2pts of dmg
3rd turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting thrasher, swing loa and curse = 4pts of dmg
4th turn
2 island 1 mutavualt casting standstill or casting none, swing all your creatures (2island + 1mutavualt untapping +cursecarcher +loa = 6/6 thrasher dmg + mutavualt + curse + loa) = 13pts of dmg

TOTAL DMG = 19pts of dmg

Fixed that for you :wink:



3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + thrasher (+5dmg) + reejerey) = 11pts of damage
6th turn
3 counter on vial, 3 island 1 wasteland, swing (curse + thrasher (+8dmg) + reejerey) = 14pts of damage

TOTAL DAMAGE = 28pts of dmg

Another fix.

I think a major factor is whether your opponent can block or not. What if you opponent happens to have a 4/5 Tarmogoyf and no islands? Wake Thrasher instantly becomes a whole lot better. With all due respect, I think this is a very bad analysis of the situation which gives 0 value of insight. It's worthless because there aren't any games where your opponent does nothing, and there are only a few games where your opponent can cast only a Swords to Plowshares. I understand you want to keep it simple, but it's not. It's in fact far more complex to boil down to such a simple analysis. The proper way to tackle the problem, is to test both decks in a gauntlet.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Thanks for the corrections, yes they aren't 100% actual game play it was just a simple example. And i made the sample scenario since im guessing 40-50% of control decks uses island thus making your creatures almost auto damage if you have loa in play.

But for the burn + black sweepers i think Sovereign has the upper edge. Normally your opponent will put in sweepers overspot removals.

Other issues that i think needs some sort of discussion are the following:
• Is creature removal (threads / snakeform) needed maindeck ?
Be it 12 lords or thrasher build the deck still has 12 creatures that has 3cc and not being able to cast a vial early and getting it on 3 counters or good early land drops the deck will be very slow in deploying its creatures. thus opponents can easily overwhelm you.

If your 8-12lords don't come out merfolk are weak in creature combat except maybe for thrasher on the offensive side, as compared to other (knights, elves, etc)

• Do boosting the 2 curve make the deck faster and provide a better matchup against other decks ?

For me merfolks be it 12 lord or thrasher build has already abit of advantage to control decks that uses island while against stompy and burn decks its almost a one sided match if you dont get the right disruption and creature drop each turn.

[Skeggi]

And i made the sample scenario since im guessing 40-50% of control decks uses island thus making your creatures almost auto damage if you have loa in play.
The point is that 100% of the control decks won't let you bash away like that. They have outs in the form of Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deeds, Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and so on and so forth. Each of these cards does something slightly different that makes alot of difference in the eventual outcome. Engineered Explosives will probably be set to 2 to blow up your LoA, but will also blow up your Adept if you have it. Deeds may come too late to blow up for 3, so has to go at 2, you don't know. Humility can really screw you and so can Moat. There are just too many factors to take into calculation. A Wake Thrasher is alot better topdeck after a boardsweeper than a Merfolk Sovereign. That's why Finn said that Wake Thrasher is better against Control and Sovereign better against Aggro. You could back it up with a hundred different scenario's, but what matters is what occurs most in your meta. It may even be the same handful of scenarios over and over again.

Your question whether creature removal is needed maindeck is a meta call. If your meta is half Control and half Combo, no you won't need it. If your meta has alot of Zoo, Merfolk, Eva Green, The Rock, Faerie Stompy etcetera, yes, creature removal or creature control would come in handy. But it also depends on what form is the best. I myself think Snakeform is too situational and often doing too little to waste 3 mana on. My personal preference lies with Threads of Disloyalty or Sower of Temptation, you may even opt for the good ol' Control Magic, if your aggro meta is slower, with decks like The Rock or Aggro Loam.

About boosting the 2 converted mana cost slot in the deck: yes, keeping mana costs low is a thing we all want. But you have to realize that we already are playing all the efficient Merfolk at cmc2 ever printed: Lord of Atlantis and Silvergill Adept. There are simply no other good options. Perhaps Merfolk Assassin for the mirror, but that's it.

[_erbs_]

Originally Posted by _erbs_
Yes moat, slihana ledge walker, etc can give the deck a hard time but the percentage in which they are seen in current meta is quite low , thats why i didn't bother to bring that up. Moat costs alot in our place ($100 each)

The only thing you can do against them is countering it, thrasher nor 12 lords will not help you.


Originally Posted by Skeggi
Your question whether creature removal is needed maindeck is a meta call. If your meta is half Control and half Combo, no you won't need it. If your meta has alot of Zoo, Merfolk, Eva Green, The Rock, Faerie Stompy etcetera, yes, creature removal or creature control would come in handy. But it also depends on what form is the best. I myself think Snakeform is too situational and often doing too little to waste 3 mana on. My personal preference lies with Threads of Disloyalty or Sower of Temptation, you may even opt for the good ol' Control Magic, if your aggro meta is slower, with decks like The Rock or Aggro Loam.

Your the one who mentioned that pridemage or other enchantment / artifact hate are common right now in the meta thats why you stayed away from the stiflenought combo though it seems your leaning towards its inconsistency over opponents destroying the combo.

So threads or control magic isn't that nice..., as for sower its nice but slow and can be hit by stifle and once it gets killed your back to square one.

Rhox wark monk is really a pain when your up against him..


Originally Posted by Skeggi
About boosting the 2 converted mana cost slot in the deck: yes, keeping mana costs low is a thing we all want. But you have to realize that we already are playing all the efficient Merfolk at cmc2 ever printed: Lord of Atlantis and Silvergill Adept. There are simply no other good options. Perhaps Merfolk Assassin for the mirror, but that's it.

Maybe Grimoire Theif would be nice..., 2/2 beater with a decent ability.

[tivadar]

Also lets not run the risk of thinking we need "removal for every situation". First off, goblins can play just fine through a lot of enchantment hate, which it frequently doesn't have removal for. On top of that, we run countermagic, whose whole purpose is to keep pesky things off the board. Yes, our opponent might be able to drop the occasional Moat through out counters, but that doesn't mean we need to put something to deal with it in the board.

Secondly, as for Threads, I mainly like it because not only is it creature removal, but it's also card advantage and tempo advantage. For 3 mana, they lose a 2cc creature and you gain it. They just wasted a turn to play that creature, and you essentially spent a turn to get rid of a creature and remove theirs. While enchantment hate is somewhat present, creature hate is even more prevalent, which is why I *don't* like sower. Plust that 1 extra mana can be a killer and you basically never want to set vial at 4.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Just want to share my short playtesting inputs on Grimoire Theif.

He's quite better than i expected especially when you could drop him early on and your opponent has no creatures early on or just let him through.

The cards that he removes sometimes are good spells that might be bad for your matchup and your opponent wouldn't know it. But i've only faced eva green so i wouldn't know how will he fair against other decks.

I removed stifle in my list to accomodate him and added another jitte. Standstill worked well aswell in my creature setup. Eventhough im just using 3 mandlands i could drop standstill on the 3rd turn when i have it in my hand. The added 2 curve made the deck abit faster and i have a good chance that i could establish early board position. but again i just faced eva green.

I might try to bump him into 4 and drop 1 merfolk sovereign or 1 jitte, i still can't decide, jitte is just so good in creature matchups.

The list i ran was...
Lands [19]
13 islands
3 mutavualt
3 wasteland

Creatures [23]
4 cursecatcher
4 lord of atlantis
4 silvergill adepth
3 grimoire theif
4 merrow reejerey
4 merfolk sovereign

Utilities [18]
4 aether vial
3 umezawa's jitte
4 force of will
3 daze
4 standstill

[thesilentpyro]

There are two main things I don't like about Grimoire Thief:

1. He doesn't do anything immediately when he hits play. The rest of our guys (except Wake Thrasher) do--the Lords can be vial'd in for combat tricks or just played first-main to get the boost. This means he has to wait around for at least a turn before he does anything.

2. Without a way to reliably tap him artificially (can't count on using reejerey for this), he has to attack and survive to be useful. To me, this seems like a card that you are using to intentionally misassign your role in the game (control vs. beatdown). You will not use him to attack into something bigger just to get the ability, because then he'd just die and all you'd get is to mill three. If you can attack with him unblocked then you should be playing the beatdown anyway and relying on the rest of your counters. If you're using a Lord to get him through then Wake Thrasher would be better anyway, either as a singleton attacker with Sovereign's unblockability or as a huge mob attacking with LoA. In this scenerio, you have gotten a threat and a Lord to stick, which means your board position should automatically improve itself without having to rely on Grimoire Thief to unreliably do it for you.

[Maveric78f]

And Cold-Eye Selkie in a 10+lords build? Isn't it better than Standstill in many situations? Isn't it worth in addition to standstill? I see questionnable slots such as Misdirection, Grimoire Thief, etc...

What about a non manadenying list:
15 islands
4 mutavaults
4 vials
=23

3 SS
4 FoW
4 Misdi
2 Jittes
=13

12 lords
4 cursecatchers
4 adepts
4 Cold-Eyed
=24

It's aggro, with a lot of CA, a lot of card disadvantage to have free powerful spells to take advantage quickly of the CA.

[_erbs_]

There are two main things I don't like about Grimoire Thief:

1. He doesn't do anything immediately when he hits play. The rest of our guys (except Wake Thrasher) do--the Lords can be vial'd in for combat tricks or just played first-main to get the boost. This means he has to wait around for at least a turn before he does anything.

2. Without a way to reliably tap him artificially (can't count on using reejerey for this), he has to attack and survive to be useful. To me, this seems like a card that you are using to intentionally misassign your role in the game (control vs. beatdown). You will not use him to attack into something bigger just to get the ability, because then he'd just die and all you'd get is to mill three. If you can attack with him unblocked then you should be playing the beatdown anyway and relying on the rest of your counters. If you're using a Lord to get him through then Wake Thrasher would be better anyway, either as a singleton attacker with Sovereign's unblockability or as a huge mob attacking with LoA. In this scenerio, you have gotten a threat and a Lord to stick, which means your board position should automatically improve itself without having to rely on Grimoire Thief to unreliably do it for you.

Yes he has no combat tricks of somesort, yes you can't maximize his ability when he hits the board, but for me i want an early threat the 8 2cc count for me is not enough to have a good chance in dropping a 2nd turn creature.

I picked grimoire thief since he has decent ability for a :u::u: 2/2 beater.

For me you can't compare him to thrasher they don't have the same role. Thrasher hands down is an excellent offensive machine, while the thief gives some sort of disruption like stifle in away, thats why i removed stifle in its place.

I tried the 12 lords + 2 thrasher build before, thrasher was even more empressive in that setup and the vials was easily set to 3 rather than contemplating if you'll go 3 or 2. But for me it felt like the deck was slow and gaining tempo is a must so that you could deploy your 3cc creatures on time before your opponents overwhelm you with his/her armies. When faced with faster aggro decks i felt like its easily overwhelmed aswell.

The 2-4 wakethrasher + 12 lords build for me felt like it needs somesort of removal be it bounce or creature kill mainboard.

[thesilentpyro]

The 2-4 wakethrasher + 12 lords build for me felt like it needs somesort of removal be it bounce or creature kill mainboard.

I understand that (I don't run Thrasher in my 11-lord build atm). I don't understand why Grimoire Thief doesn't need the same bounce or creature kill--it has to live through an attack to do anything useful. If anything, Thrasher needs less, as it's usually chump blocked. Grimoire Thief is much more often outclassed in combat than Thrasher.

As for the two not being comparable, I would argue that they're fighting for the same slot--in a 12-lord build, if people want thrashers, the first thing they cut is Stifle. They may not serve the same role, but that is because Thrasher has a role it fills--it's the finisher. Thief doesn't have a concrete role--you have to be on the beatdown to use its ability (where you'd rather have Thrasher to end it quicker) and when you're control you can't get it active most of the time due to it dying if you ever attack with it.

[Finn]

Selkie sure seems like it deserves another look with more lords. That's interesting. Mav, I don't know what you have gained with removing Wastelands, though. You could easily still play them.

If you are going to play sans Standstill, one of the key reasons to play Mutavault is removed. That seems like even more reason to play mana denial.

Just the same, I can't see any reason to stop with the direction we are going. Sovereign makes Mutavaults just that much better. And Standstill has been nothing short of amazing for me even against Landstill. Why cut it?

[tivadar]

If Selkie costed 2, I'd be all over him, but the fact is that you run into the same problem that Thrasher gives you with the 12 lord setup, too many 3cc creatures.

[Maveric78f]

Except that thrasher is only aggro while Selkie is aggro (because if you let him connect once or twice, then you've probably lost) and control (because even if it's alone, without overextending, it's very good in many control MUs).$

Ps : the reason why I wanted to remove the wastes was to be able to play the UU critters without vial quite reliably.
PPs : in my list SS was standstill and not spell snare, so I kept them as 3-of only.
PPPs : my list was untested. It's just a questioning about the way to go.
PPPPs : we still play less 3CC cards than gob. Ok, we don't have lackey, but anyway...

[tivadar]

Except that thrasher is only aggro while Selkie is aggro (because if you let him connect once or twice, then you've probably lost) and control (because even if it's alone, without overextending, it's very good in many control MUs).

Ok, Selkie is NOT aggro. He's card advantage and strictly that. Against an aggro deck, they're going to win far before the cards garnered from Selkie are relevant. At least thrasher allows you to race immediately.

[_erbs_]

I understand that (I don't run Thrasher in my 11-lord build atm). I don't understand why Grimoire Thief doesn't need the same bounce or creature kill--it has to live through an attack to do anything useful. If anything, Thrasher needs less, as it's usually chump blocked. Grimoire Thief is much more often outclassed in combat than Thrasher.

As for the two not being comparable, I would argue that they're fighting for the same slot--in a 12-lord build, if people want thrashers, the first thing they cut is Stifle. They may not serve the same role, but that is because Thrasher has a role it fills--it's the finisher. Thief doesn't have a concrete role--you have to be on the beatdown to use its ability (where you'd rather have Thrasher to end it quicker) and when you're control you can't get it active most of the time due to it dying if you ever attack with it.

The difference between grimoire thief or any additional 2cc creature as compared to thrasher or 3cc creature is that it comes out 1 turn early and will have a higher chance in dropping a 2nd turn creature and a 3rd turn standstill while as compared to having 8 (silvergill & loa) 2cc and 8-12 (reejerey, sovergeign & thrasher) 3cc creature setup.

If you can overwhelm your opponent early via creature or card advantage finishing him is abit easy because all he wants to draw are low casting creature removals or blockers to balance out the feild. if the thief can remove several of those he will not know it and will have a hard time recovering from it.

As for aggro decks if grimoire thief dies quickly then its just fine your opponent dedicated a direct removal from it then he/she will have to deal with your lords aswell.

I felt that running more (10-12) 3cc creatures needed somesort of removal because the chances of you dropping an early blocker is quite low. And you will be playing defensively by the time you land your 1st creature on the board your opponent has 1-2-3 threats already so unless all your creatures are thrashers the board position is abit balanced. But when on your 3rd or 4th turn drop is a cursecatcher or loa or reejerey racing your opponent will be quite hard and your opponent will just kill your 1st 3rd or 4th turn creature. If your going to mull ever game so you could drop a creature early in your (10-12) 3cc creature setup I think thats not a nice idea aswell.

You will not always have a hand that could give you a 1st turn creature drop or vial drop since the number is quite low 8. For the 2nd turn creature drop you have 8 aswell.

Standstill will suffer aswell as its not nice to play it if your on the defensive end.

[thesilentpyro]

If you're that desperate for another 2cc merfolk, I'd rather play Rootwater Thief (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22889) or Sygg, River Cutthroat (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147377). Rootwater has semi-evasion of it's own (can connect even without lords in play, which already makes it better than Grimoire Thief), has more proactive disruption, is easier to cast with all the colorless in our manabase, and if they kill it after you're tapped out for whatever reason it at least provided some disruption. The main drawback is that it's mana-hungry, but it proactively gets rid of some of our big problem cards, such as Moat. Sygg has a bigger butt, which is occasionally relevant, and can provide card advantage without having to swing himself, allowing us to draw into our superior disruption/threats faster.

If you're really for improving the curve (which seems to be most of your argument), I'd also rather run Tidal Warrior--comes down a turn sooner, disrupts manabase, and helps LoA, not to mention a higher likelihood of a T1 play or double T2 play.


Your argument about Standstill suffering on the defensive end fails, as Standstill was not in question (and Grimoire Thief sucks when you're on the defensive as well).



Essentially, my argument boils down to this: Grimoire Thief requires you to be connecting readily to be any good; i.e. you're already winning. If you're losing, the most it'll do is chump-block. If you're using it as an aggro creature to improve the curve, the earliest it'll be swinging is T3 when they're likely to have a bigger threat on the board already. If you're using it as control, it has to connect first and stick around a turn. Yes, the argument could be made that we already use cards that are only good on the offensive (standstill) but those cards are not what you're trying to replace and they're much better at what they do than Grimoire Thief, who is unreliable as hell. Running a sub-par creature to marginally improve a curve that doesn't really need improving isn't what we should be doing.

Also, anybody running Brainstorm laughs at the Thief, which is a decent bit of the format, 'cause that card is insane. Swing with the thief, in response they Brainstorm. Guess what? They drew three cards and all you got was a handful of lands off the top of their deck for them.

[_erbs_]

If you're that desperate for another 2cc merfolk, I'd rather play Rootwater Thief (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22889) or Sygg, River Cutthroat (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147377). Rootwater has semi-evasion of it's own (can connect even without lords in play, which already makes it better than Grimoire Thief), has more proactive disruption, is easier to cast with all the colorless in our manabase, and if they kill it after you're tapped out for whatever reason it at least provided some disruption. The main drawback is that it's mana-hungry, but it proactively gets rid of some of our big problem cards, such as Moat. Sygg has a bigger butt, which is occasionally relevant, and can provide card advantage without having to swing himself, allowing us to draw into our superior disruption/threats faster.

If you're really for improving the curve, I'd also rather run Tidal Warrior--comes down a turn sooner, disrupts manabase, and helps LoA, not to mention a higher likelihood of a T1 play or double T2 play.


Your argument about Standstill suffering on the defensive end fails, as Standstill was not in question (and Grimoire Thief sucks when you're on the defensive as well).



Essentially, my argument boils down to this: Grimoire Thief requires you to be connecting readily to be any good; i.e. you're already winning. If you're losing, the most it'll do is chump-block. If you're using it as an aggro creature to improve the curve, the earliest it'll be swinging is T3 when they're likely to have a bigger threat on the board already. If you're using it as control, it has to connect first and stick around a turn. Yes, the argument could be made that we already use cards that are only good on the offensive (standstill) but those cards are not what you're trying to replace and they're much better at what they do than Grimoire Thief, who is unreliable as hell. Running a sub-par creature to marginally improve a curve that doesn't really need improving isn't what we should be doing.

Also, anybody running Brainstorm laughs at the Thief, which is a decent bit of the format, 'cause that card is insane. Swing with the thief, in response they Brainstorm. Guess what? They drew three cards and all you got was a handful of lands off the top of their deck for them.

Rootwater Thief is nice but mana hungry... you can't use its ability early on, Sygg, River Cutthroat is a nice utility creature has a bigger but than the regular 2cc 2/2 frame but is a legend thus putting 3-4 seems off.

I used to run tidal warrior yes he has nice synergy with the mana denial pacakage & loa espcially agaisnt non island users. But for him to be effective you have to run 3 to 4 so that it will have a higher chance of disrupting your opponent early on. Even on mid-lategame he could still good in where both players can't attack due to the aftermath of the combat.

But i cut him bec of his 1/1 frame not because of his ability or casting cost. 1/1 frame seems weak in the 12 lord setup, maybe for the Thrasher setup he could be nice to make the creature curve faster abit but what would you cut for him..

Im not saying that grimoire thief is the best 2cc creature or an auto include in a merfolk deck.., im still in my playtesting phase but so far he has been doing well. In those playtesting phase i've also seen his downs like what you've posted. If i could find a better a 2/2 creature in my 12 lord setup since i choose that route over the 8-10 lords and 2-4 thrasher build then the better.

Yes Grimoire Thief is just a 2/2 vanilla on the defensive end and in decks that run cantrips, etc like you've stated (brainstorm, ponder, sdt, etc.) your opponent will have fresh cards in return but those kinds of situations can swing both ways.

My main point in my testing phase are:
• If i add more 2cc creatures would it be better in my current 12 lord setup.
• Mixing and finding the good number of lords is to thrasher.
• Is going allout offensive (no creature control) better as compared to including 4 to X creature removal.

[thesilentpyro]

But i cut him bec of his 1/1 frame not because of his ability or casting cost. 1/1 frame seems weak in the 12 lord setup, maybe for the Thrasher setup he could be nice to make the creature curve faster abit but what would you cut for him..

If anything, 1/1s are stronger in the 12-lord setup--with twelve lords, your creature's stats are slightly less important as they'll be getting a boost if you are at all in the game and you can focus your non-lord creatures on relevant abilities rather than super-efficient p/t. As for what I'd cut for him--I'd put him in the slot you're trying to shoehorn Grimoire Thief into; his ability is very relevant for both mana denial and evasion and can be used without having to be able to swing into an open board.


in decks that run cantrips, etc like you've stated (brainstorm, ponder, sdt, etc.) your opponent will have fresh cards in return but those kinds of situations can swing both ways.

First, take a look at the meta and find the percentage of decks that don't use one of the cards you mentioned. It's a relatively small number. Also, how can those kinds of situations swing both ways? No matter how you look at it, if your opponent is running cantrips or instant-speed deck manipulation, Grimoire Thief sucks.



My questions for you: How often does the Thief help you defensively more than having removal/bounce/counters would? How often are you actually able to swing with him to make his ability relevant? How often would you rather have just swung with a huge Thrasher? How often has being 2cc helped when it has a double-colored casting cost, and thus is much harder to actually get out T2? How often would even Counterspell be better?

Your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to Grimoire Thief being another 2cc merfolk. Yes, this would improve our curve, but it causes us to drop cards that would help tempo just as much, i.e. Stifle. Improving your curve is all about tempo, and tempo is what Stifle does. Stifleing a fetch is one of th most tempo-licious plays to make. If your opponent is playing around the Stifle, that is fine, as it's an additional restriction on their play. If your opponent is playing around Stifle when you don't have it, that is advantageous until you start giving them major clues about the makeup of your deck--if you reveal to them another creature, one not normally run in Folk, players up on their meta will know the skeleton of Merfolk and many will know that Stifle is one of the first cards usually cut--the more cards you show them that are not Stifle, the more likely it is that you do not have Stifle, and thus the more likely they are to not worry about playing around it anymore.


I am not against improving the curve, but I would caution against playing sub-par cards purely for the sake of improving the curve when there are better options available for that slot.

[Barsoom]

I think i can share my list there, i'm quite happy with the mana curve and balance i found with the inclusion of the latest lord.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Aether Vial
3 Standstill
3 Echoing Truth
2 Umezawa's Jitte

14 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Mana curve is really balanced imho: 10 20 8
No Wasteland cause i never liked here mana denial strategy (i own 4 Wastelands so it's not a budget problem), i never run Stifle too, and the Warrior is here for his evasion ability that actually won me some games from time to time, and for upping the 1cc merfolks.
Factories instead of Mutavault cause atm i don't own any of them; i think i'm not missing really so much power, even if now with 10 lords Mutavault is more powerful.

[shaneswa]

A few pages back we were discussing Snake form as removal/ combat trick. There is a card out of planar chaos called Ovinize that does the samne thing for one less. Its not for me but for those of you running Snakeform its a good replacement.

[tivadar]

A few pages back we were discussing Snake form as removal/ combat trick. There is a card out of planar chaos called Ovinize that does the samne thing for one less. Its not for me but for those of you running Snakeform its a good replacement.

Shrug, I'd rather pay the one extra mana for the cantripping. Seems as if the card is a fairly big deal here.

[_erbs_]

If anything, 1/1s are stronger in the 12-lord setup--with twelve lords, your creature's stats are slightly less important as they'll be getting a boost if you are at all in the game and you can focus your non-lord creatures on relevant abilities rather than super-efficient p/t. As for what I'd cut for him--I'd put him in the slot you're trying to shoehorn Grimoire Thief into; his ability is very relevant for both mana denial and evasion and can be used without having to be able to swing into an open board.

True that tidal warrior really works well wth:
- landy package (wasteland & stifle)
- lord of atlantis
- mana fixing if needed.

Has a lower curve aswell. Im not agaisnt him i used to use him and loved it.


First, take a look at the meta and find the percentage of decks that don't use one of the cards you mentioned. It's a relatively small number. Also, how can those kinds of situations swing both ways? No matter how you look at it, if your opponent is running cantrips or instant-speed deck manipulation, Grimoire Thief sucks.

It could swing both ways by:
- If your opponent don't kill grimoire thief he will run out of resources (spells/utilities/lands) thus at a certain point he/she will be forced to kill it. Your opponent will only have a boost when he/she gets the card he/she needs but what if the card he is waiting is already gone.. no matter how he uses cantrips and take advantage of the thief he will not get it anymore.

Basically its just a matter of who plays them first. The thief or permanent cantrips like SDT.

If the thief quickly dies and never gotten the chance to use his ability thats just fine, he/she must deal with your lords and save your lords from 1 spot removal


My questions for you: How often does the Thief help you defensively more than having removal/bounce/counters would? How often are you actually able to swing with him to make his ability relevant? How often would you rather have just swung with a huge Thrasher? How often has being 2cc helped when it has a double-colored casting cost, and thus is much harder to actually get out T2? How often would even Counterspell be better?

Defensively his just a 2/2 vanilla. Yes other spells are very useful indeed (bounce, tempo stifle, countermagic, etc) but im im testing a allout aggro merfolk list, thats why i removed all the tempo elements like stifle which i previously use.

As for thrasher, i will say again that his very good indeed offensively but needs some sort of control / tempo for me so that he could be maximized and if only he could land a turn early than that would solve my 2cc problem. If my opponent grabs (control magic, vedalken shackel's, etc) thrasher it would only give me headaches if i dont have an answer for it.


Your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to Grimoire Thief being another 2cc merfolk. Yes, this would improve our curve, but it causes us to drop cards that would help tempo just as much, i.e. Stifle. Improving your curve is all about tempo, and tempo is what Stifle does. Stifleing a fetch is one of th most tempo-licious plays to make. If your opponent is playing around the Stifle, that is fine, as it's an additional restriction on their play. If your opponent is playing around Stifle when you don't have it, that is advantageous until you start giving them major clues about the makeup of your deck--if you reveal to them another creature, one not normally run in Folk, players up on their meta will know the skeleton of Merfolk and many will know that Stifle is one of the first cards usually cut--the more cards you show them that are not Stifle, the more likely it is that you do not have Stifle, and thus the more likely they are to not worry about playing around it anymore.

Yes stifle and other tempo cards (bounce spells) is really a nice card indeed i know that because i use 4 off them before i switched to a all aggro merfolk list. It really gives you tempo thats why paired with thrasher they are really good, thrasher gives you the damage to the small window that stifle gave to finish off your opponent before he/she can recover.


I am not against improving the curve, but I would caution against playing sub-par cards purely for the sake of improving the curve when there are better options available for that slot.

Your statement is very true.

The allout aggro list for has its ups and downs aswell in my one week of playtesting it. Here are what i found...

• The deck had a more consistent 2nd turn drop as compared to the standard list. In creature battles and mirror matchups its faster deploying creatures even when on the draw. Your opponent will thing twice before dropping a loa.

• Able to play standstill 2nd-3rd turn regularly.

• Finishes the game much faster.

• Jitte is really a house in creature battles. The person who 1st uses it will really gain board control if the board if filled with creatures. But even with no jitte the aggro list can finish the game with it. I think 3 is abit too much but at times drawing it and being able to use it is really game breaking.

• The lost of tempo cards gave control decks a much faster time to setup there defenses against you but decks with no built-in sweepers they are easily overwhelmed.

If grimoire thief gets their key cards its GG aswell. Thus 60% of the time his the 1st who gets killed subsequently making your armies deal more damage letting your lords live. If he kills off the lords first he risks the chance of the thief removing the card he needs to control your armies like fire ice, etc.

• The lower curve and making it more aggro opens you for:
- spell snare
- counterbalance
- threads of disloyality
- faster activation of powder keg / engineered explosives / pernicious deed
- over commiting (sometimes)
- the longer the game the less control you have or could answer your opponents threats
- made the stax matcup much harder (no thrasher no bounce mainboard)
- grimoire theif can be abused in some degree

Maybe ill try this allout aggro in one of our small tournys and see it how it fairs.

[ssilver]

Has anyone experimented with Bannerets since the "12th man" appeared in 2010? I personally have been playing dangerous amounts of Standard lately and the ability to "combo off" has won games. Having 12 lords makes it not as bad as it used to be, and the 3cc of the 12 lord approach is mitigated by it. Have not personally tried this out, but am throwing it out there as a theoretical good idea.

[Muradin]

I did not read the thread and thus don't know whether this idea has already benn discussed but what do you think of a kind of transformational sideboard?

My Maindeck is pretty standard for Ug Merfolk.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

My sidebaord atm is:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus

To tell the truth, I found no other way to consistently beat Aggro G2/G3 with Merfolk and so I added Dreadnoughts to the board. Is this a viable strategy or rather not?

[Piceli89]

Relic of Progenitus and Tarmogoyf don't work really well together, i guess. And i guess that you wouldn't board out Tarmogoyfs and board in Relics that easily, since Tarmogoyfs are *sigh* strong. Also,if you want to transform it into something capable of defeating Aggro, i don't know if a sort of Dreadstill-merfolk hybrid is the way to go. Between Pridemage, Grip, Path, StP and *maybe*REBs, decks like Zoo have good possibilities to make your Dreadnought a 2x1 in their favor. To me, it's better to focus on a wide range of options in the sb which can make the aggro matchup more comfortable for you. The first things I'd look to are Jittes, which give you a significant hand, and BEBs. Then, you can also add great tech cards like Mind Harness, which presonally i love. This should really be enough to have a significant shot against aggro, without bastardazing or changing the deck's structure too much.

[coraz86]

I did not read the thread and thus don't know whether this idea has already benn discussed but what do you think of a kind of transformational sideboard?

My Maindeck is pretty standard for Ug Merfolk.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

My sidebaord atm is:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus

To tell the truth, I found no other way to consistently beat Aggro G2/G3 with Merfolk and so I added Dreadnoughts to the board. Is this a viable strategy or rather not?

I like it, but I also think you're in trouble if they resolve a Pridemage that way. I guess it protects your Vials from them, but is that worth two cards and spending :1::u: on your turn?

I say this just glancing at your list, of course, I haven't tried it; please repost if it works for you.

[Phoenix Ignition]

My sidebaord atm is:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus

To tell the truth, I found no other way to consistently beat Aggro G2/G3 with Merfolk and so I added Dreadnoughts to the board. Is this a viable strategy or rather not?

This approach has been tried before a few times and generally regarded as not a strong answer to zooish decks. The lack of cantrips makes finding both of the pieces of the combo difficult, and against three color zoo you will be better of not holding onto the stifles and taking out their lands since the manabase is the weakest point of that deck.

Against burn I found that it was a strong answer, but in general you really don't want to side in more stifle effects since it is a completely dead card against them and you have no guarantee to hit the dreadnaught in the first two ( and thus the only relevant turns against them).

Against goblins and elves they both can search for a guy to blow up the Artifact.

I wish it worked too, but it is just too hard to find both parts of it in a timely manner.

[coraz86]

I think I've seen it earlier in the thread, but I'll reiterate anyway; have you tried boarding Hibernation? I guess that only helps against Zoo, but it's pretty brutal if you time it well.

Also (and I again know that this has been mentioned, but it seems worth repeating), Propaganda seems awesome for that, especially if a)you're already rocking the Stifle/Wasteland plan to any degree of success and b)you resolve an early Vial so you can afford to tap down for a permanent that doesn't beat.

[tivadar]

We're back on top baby! But then again... so is goblins :(.

@coraz86: Hibernation also kicks it against progenitus and elves, so I don't imagine it's that bad of a card. Not to mention it removes pesky wombatzies.

EDIT: Merfolk - 236 points in 30 placements (of which 201 U, 35 UG)
So apparently mono-blue is still the way to go, which I think everyone sort of knew. However, all our arguing for white as a splash doesn't seem to be backed up by any statistics...

[whosyourdaddy]

EDIT: Merfolk - 236 points in 30 placements (of which 201 U, 35 UG)
So apparently mono-blue is still the way to go, which I think everyone sort of knew. However, all our arguing for white as a splash doesn't seem to be backed up by any statistics...

Well, those statistics don't tell that much really. Merfolk IS a budget legacy deck after all. And for many players budget issues is the no 1 factor to pick up this deck. Therefore, there are simply waaaaay more mono-U builds than splah lists around so odds are... well it's simple mathematics.
Anyway, lack of white-splashed lists kinda concerns me. I really enjoy playing my latest UW build and I'll be really unhappy to realize it ain't worth a shit;p


Lately I've lost(2-1) a mirror match in a small tourney. And the two games I've lost was exlusively due to my opponent resolving and connecting Jitte ;/
I had like 3 creatures(one of them being Reejerey) and he devastated me with a single freaking adept(topdeck Jitte->equip->swing->win).
Therefore I figured out I want to play Jitte myself:) Here's the list

4 Mutavault
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
8 Island

4 LoA
4 Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 StP
2 Jitte

The goal is to go as much anti-aggro as possible(with this deck).
Any thoughts on how to accomplish this task?
I might want to go -1Mutavault -2Island +3Wasteland but I'm not sure.

Also, do you think E.Tutor could find place in this list? (-1Jitte +1Einlightened Tutor). I mean, I don't want multiple Jittes anyway so If I happen to draw jitte and tutor I might tutor for standstill (or go tutor->vial on t1) or some sb stuff g2 and g3. Not that sexy, but still better than 2xJitte in hand.

[Wargoos]

The goal is to go as much anti-aggro as possible(with this deck).
Any thoughts on how to accomplish this task?
The few last pages are full of discussions about the aggro mu.

Personally I think we shouldn't meddle to much in the maindeck and therefore not take the risk to decrease other mu's.
Also, two copies of jitte shouldn't beat aggro, since u'll barely connect with an equiped critter...

My advise is to pack some aggro-hate into the side, targeted and specialized on the aggro decks your meta offers.
I wouldn't leave the house without some chills and BEB's in the side, though.

Also I'm currently running an UG Build and am pretty contented with it so far.
It increases the goblin mu and therefore leaves play for some sideboardspace against sligh decks.
I also liked nightmares uw and taco's ub build and will definitely test both opportunity given.

[Nekrataal]

Well, those statistics don't tell that much really. Merfolk IS a budget legacy deck after all. And for many players budget issues is the no 1 factor to pick up this deck. Therefore, there are simply waaaaay more mono-U builds than splah lists around so odds are... well it's simple mathematics.
Anyway, lack of white-splashed lists kinda concerns me. I really enjoy playing my latest UW build and I'll be really unhappy to realize it ain't worth a shit;p


Yeah, the white splash helps especially against the Red Enemy called Zoo and Goyfsligh. Recently played a tourney and had two wins against Zoo (2:0) thanks to good SB cards (I play 2 Warmth, 2 Absolute Law, 1 BEB, 1 Hydroblast). Absolute Law in particular is GG. Anyway I can report from my very last tourney which was quite interesting because I seemed to be the only Merfolk player from 23 there. There was a heavy aggro-ish field. I saw at least 3 Sui Black / Eva Green style decks, 3 Goblins, some Elves, a lot of Zoo. The only other deck that was there in numbers was Thresh in various styles and colors (may also been CounterTop).

I played my Ugw version (with Goyfs and Stops main) like posted a few pages before

Game 1: I was paired against Canadian Threshold. Match 1 is easy win, Match 2 I am lucky because I draw 2 Wastelands in a row and had 1 in my opening hand. My opponent laid 3 non-basic to feed the Wastelands. Perfect fit.

Game 2: Match 1 I loose due to a big bad Troll that didnt liked to be dredged around anymore. Instead he was reanimated to smash my face. I could remove all Bridges thanks to Cursecatcher but it was not enough. Match 2 I am just too fast while my opponent dregdes just some shit into his graveyard. Match 3 is very close. The turn before I kill he manages to combo :/ and come for exactly the damage he needs. I regret that I didn't bring Propaganda SB. I decided before the tourney that I do not need them ... well.

Game 3: Match 1 is a desaster. My hands get ripped apart, I am left with nothing and a Tombstalker seals the opponent's win. Eva Green is always a close matchup and Game 2 it seems that I am ahead with a resolved Standstill. But I draw only shit and cannot put some pressure on the table. After a very long game where we both fight over ressources, waste lands, disrupt hands, my only hope of winning is Tarmogoyf. Thanks to Top my opponent has all his 4 Plagues out and enough Mana to replay at least 2 te next turn. When I land Goyf I have ET as a backup for it. Goyfs goes into combat zone 2 times before my opoonent tries to remove him. I ponder about keeping ET for PLagues but decide against it to rescue the Goyf (no Lord in hand). I do not replay Goyf directly because I fear more removal and I have no Counter whatsoever. Well, I should have also thought about Thoughtseize. So in the end Tombstalker seals my fate again.

Game 4: Zooooo! Game 1 I can play an earlier Standstill, with Mutavault and Vial on the table. My opponents has a lonely but deadly Lavamancer. Apparently my opponent is not very familiar with the deck and he doesnt try to break Standstill for 5 rounds. Well, I assemble an army and that's game. Game 2 he playes Lavamancer, Ape and two Nacatl. Since he is stuck on 1 Land I can hold the pressure and bring some Folks and Lord online just in time (LP 8). I can counter 2 burn spells on my Lords and now that my guys are bigger than his attack with a Mutavault for 5/5 (he doesnt block). But I need to hurry since I am in burn range. Luckily I draw into Absolute Law can play a Cursecatcher to tap one of his Nacatls (via Rejeerey) and attack all in for the Win.

Game 5: Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh again. Well I start with a Tarmogoyf. He wastes his burn on it. Then I play a Merfolk and he goes: Oh no, that's what you're playing. I go: Uh well. However I assemble an army without much resistance and run him over. Game 2 I force a 2nd Turn Absolute Law. He concedes soon after.

Pros:
Tarmogoyf. Absorbes all the removal and let's your Lords pass. Always a nice surprise on the face of any opponent.
Absolut Law. Absolutely amazing in every game I played it.

Cons
I should have played Propaganda SB.
Since there was so much Aggro running wild I didnt really needed Grips, well they are needed for sure, but it is sad to have a slot loaded with something that turns out to be useless in the end.

[Nightmare]

I wrote up a relatively quick report on the tournament I won last night. Check it out, and let me know what you think!

http://saltcitymagic.blogspot.com/2009/08/quick-tournament-report.html

[Wargoos]

Love the list nightmare.
I agree with your choices 99%, although I would play -1 Standstill in heavy aggro invested metas, since it get's worse and worse the longer the match is and aggro tends to have a better board position.
3 are still enough for t2 standstill with force backup.

Also, since you actually played it, I guess StP > PtW since we play stiflewaste, right?

[Nekrataal]

I wrote up a relatively quick report on the tournament I won last night. Check it out, and let me know what you think!

http://saltcitymagic.blogspot.com/2009/08/quick-tournament-report.html

I like the list ...

// Lands
4 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Mutavault

// Creatures
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher

// Spells
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Daze
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial

//Sideboard
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Absolute Law

However I am not sure about Sourvereign .. in your report it seemed you could apply enough pressure though. So it is good to see that the apprehension does not to turn out to be true regarding the speed of the deck including more 3cc spells.

Personally I would go

-1 Daze
-1 Standstill
-1 Relic
+3 Brainstorm

especially in an aggro meta, cause Standstilll sometimes sucks as does Daze. 1x Relic does not seem to be too relevant now does it?

[Wargoos]

1x Relic does not seem to be too relevant now does it?

It is, especially when he just runs 2 copies of it in his 75.

[Nekrataal]

It is, especially when he just runs 2 copies of it in his 75.
What for ? He can not fetch nor acquire it somehow when needed, so I guess it is better to play 3 SB and swap when needed. Disenchant by the way is weak, so they could give way for 2 additional Relics.

[Nightmare]

What for ? He can not fetch nor acquire it somehow when needed, so I guess it is better to play 3 SB and swap when needed. Disenchant by the way is weak, so they could give way for 2 additional Relics.

Two in 75 really hasn't been bad. It's not like you ABSOLUTELY need to draw one, even against Ichorid. I don't believe I'd be in favor of a third in my board. If I were planning to make any changes to it, I'd cut two slots for a third Absolute Law and a third Jitte (or a Tormod's Crypt, to diversify threats vs. Ichorid).

Right now, I think I plan to stick with the current setup for a couple more events, to try and feel out the benefit of the MD Jittes and see how relevant the Relic is. If it doesn't feel worth it, I may switch them all to StP MD, and put the other stuff back in the board, with a Crypt or the 3rd Absolute Law over the 4th StP.

[Nekrataal]

Two in 75 really hasn't been bad. It's not like you ABSOLUTELY need to draw one, even against Ichorid. I don't believe I'd be in favor of a third in my board. If I were planning to make any changes to it, I'd cut two slots for a third Absolute Law and a third Jitte (or a Tormod's Crypt, to diversify threats vs. Ichorid).

Right now, I think I plan to stick with the current setup for a couple more events, to try and feel out the benefit of the MD Jittes and see how relevant the Relic is. If it doesn't feel worth it, I may switch them all to StP MD, and put the other stuff back in the board, with a Crypt or the 3rd Absolute Law over the 4th StP.

Well that's your choice. For me it seems too random to just play 1 main pre-board. There have been builds that played 3 Relics main to answer Tombstalker / Goyf. I still would recommend Brainstorm with all the Fetchlands you play. I am just repeating my suggestion because you didn't seem to pick it up in your reply ;)

Absolute Law is absolutely amazing. I would play 4 SB but I also play Warmth. I am yet undecided to go for 4 Absolute Law or keep Warmth against the burn component of red decks. Jitte on the other hand has been not too great in aggro matchups. Especially against Zoo and Goyfsligh your creatures are not gonna stay long enough. I remember one game where I was beaten by a lone Nacatl with a Jitte out Turn 2 myself. Then with a Absolute Law on the board it does not seem necessary.

[Skeggi]

I wrote up a relatively quick report on the tournament I won last night. Check it out, and let me know what you think!

http://saltcitymagic.blogspot.com/2009/08/quick-tournament-report.html

Congratulations on the win :smile:.

I see you sided out Aether Vial in some cases. I've tried that in the past too, but stopped doing it because Aether Vial makes 1-land hands keepable and can really speed up your game. I really noticed I missed them in quite some openings. Have you ever encountered this problem? Also, if you decide to side out 2, I guess it's more logical to side out 4, since you want them in your opening hand. If you're dropping that chance, you don't want to topdeck Aether Vial midgame; it's always bad. So what are your thoughts on this?

The 1-of Relic seems pretty random. Why not just run a third Jitte? For instance by putting Relic back into the sideboard and drop the 4th Swords to Plowshares. From my experience Jitte is a powerful card (obviously), and is strongest ran as a 3-of: either you run 3 because you need them in your match-up, or you run none because you don't need them.

[Nekrataal]

Congratulations on the win :smile:.

I see you sided out Aether Vial in some cases. I've tried that in the past too, but stopped doing it because Aether Vial makes 1-land hands keepable and can really speed up your game. I really noticed I missed them in quite some openings. Have you ever encountered this problem? Also, if you decide to side out 2, I guess it's more logical to side out 4, since you want them in your opening hand. If you're dropping that chance, you don't want to topdeck Aether Vial midgame; it's always bad. So what are your thoughts on this?

The 1-of Relic seems pretty random. Why not just run a third Jitte? For instance by putting Relic back into the sideboard and drop the 4th Swords to Plowshares. From my experience Jitte is a powerful card (obviously), and is strongest ran as a 3-of: either you run 3 because you need them in your match-up, or you run none because you don't need them.

Same here. I dont do it anymore because Aether Vial in the opening hand is just too important in about every matchup. It speeds you up in any case (against Zoo, Sligh as well) and makes counters worseless when playing against U. And also your argument applies, that it makes 1 Land hands keepable. Last tourney I kept a hand with 1 Wasteland and an Aether Vial. THAT of course IS risky I know. But after I mulled to 6 how can that get any better ;) Especially with g splash its fun to vial in a spontanious blocker like a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. In general combat tricks with Vial are not that rare ...

[dyzzy]

I just decided to build (mono-U) Merfolk basically from scratch and this is the list I started out with:

Land (20):
12x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault

Creature (18):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Merfolk Sovereign

Spell (22):
3x Stifle
4x Aether Vial
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Daze
3x Standstill
2x Wipe Away
4x Force of Will

I have a couple questions.
1) I might not be able to get the Stifles in time because I need the deck by Sunday and can't get them from the guy I originally planned to at first (also my friend told me most Merfolk decks don't even run it anymore). There's quite a bit of Storm in my meta (I've seen ANT, TES, and Solidarity), so is Stifle really not necessary? Are there better ways to deal with these? If I take out Stifle, what should I replace it with? I was suggested 2x Wake Thrasher + 1x Relic.

2) What would be good for the SB? My meta has a lot of combo (Storm as mentioned above, a couple Ichorid, one mono-R Imperial Painter, and one High Tide), quite a few black sui variants (I've seen a few Eva Green and Deadguy Ale), and some Thresh. Oh, and Merfolk is pretty popular (the main reason I wanted to build it, because I keep seeing how good it is). I haven't seen any Landstill, CounterTop, Goblins, or Elves. The random SB I took 2 seconds to come up with:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Relic of Progenitus (2x Relic + 1x Gaea's Blessing if I MD 1)
3x Echoing Truth
3x Back to Basics
3x Propaganda
(I think this is geared too much towards Ichorid... most likely because that's what my friend plays)

[Wargoos]

Spell Snare does its job just fine against combo.
Also disrupt would be hell of a surprise.
Also cantrips :D

[Finn]

I think Jitte sux ass against Zoo. Jitte is far better against Threshold, aggro loam, and other decks that have fewer creatures and fewer spot removal. This deck does not pack a heckuva lot of lands. Even if I land a turn 1 Cursecatcher, I don't like spending all of turns 2 and 3 playing and equipping the thing only to have my opponent tap 1 red to kill the equipped creature and hit me for 6. That is not how this deck likes to operate. You don't want to tie up your early resources while the opponent runs amok. I think something like Propaganda, Chill, or even Overburden might do a better job against Zoo. Something that forces these decks to slow down. And for God's sake don't take out your Stifles. When I beat the decks I am not supposed to it is pretty much always because I screwed with his mana. If you wanna beat Zoo and Goblins, you gotta keep them off their lands. Warmth is good, yeah. But I think it is worth looking into working with what the deck already has to accentuate the effect of our hate.


@EaD, what are you countering with Spell Snare against combo?

[Wargoos]

Uhm Finn his meta is infested with storm not zoo.
Also there are no goblins and he can't play stifles, since he can't get them in time.
But I agree 100% with you, even if it was kinda out of the context :D

@ Finn: B.Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, random Bounce, Confidants
Hey, it's not that bad :D

[Finn]

Yeah, I think I zoned into a single comment and missed the larger conversation on that one. I actually had to search for what I was even responding to.
Absolute Law is absolutely amazing. I would play 4 SB but I also play Warmth. I am yet undecided to go for 4 Absolute Law or keep Warmth against the burn component of red decks. Jitte on the other hand has been not too great in aggro matchups. Especially against Zoo and Goyfsligh your creatures are not gonna stay long enough. I remember one game where I was beaten by a lone Nacatl with a Jitte out Turn 2 myself. Then with a Absolute Law on the board it does not seem necessary.Since I am on it now, lemme just say that Absolute Law and Warmth are really good red hosers in general. I am sure they were fantastic. I am just looking for something that is a bit broader. As for Jitte, I don't know that I like it so much. In addition to the aforementioned craptitude of spending your tiny mana supply to equip it, I am unconvinced that it helps in the matchups this deck needs help on.

Anyway carry on then, carry on.

[tivadar]

If you have a lot of combo, why not run Chalice? You can easily drop one at 0, or hold them off and drop one at 1 to cut off their mana sources. With the counterspells, I would imagine this would do the trick. In addition, Chalice also rocks against the Thresh matchup (though granted, you win that anyways) along with assuring that if you do run into burn, you have another relevant card. Without the stifles, that means dropping it at 1 hurts less.

EDIT: granted, chalice doesn't work against ichorid, but you could always mainboard echoing truth...

[Nekrataal]

I just decided to build (mono-U) Merfolk basically from scratch and this is the list I started out with:

Land (20):
12x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault

Creature (18):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Merfolk Sovereign

Spell (22):
3x Stifle
4x Aether Vial
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Daze
3x Standstill
2x Wipe Away
4x Force of Will

I have a couple questions.
1) I might not be able to get the Stifles in time because I need the deck by Sunday and can't get them from the guy I originally planned to at first (also my friend told me most Merfolk decks don't even run it anymore). There's quite a bit of Storm in my meta (I've seen ANT, TES, and Solidarity), so is Stifle really not necessary? Are there better ways to deal with these? If I take out Stifle, what should I replace it with? I was suggested 2x Wake Thrasher + 1x Relic.

2) What would be good for the SB? My meta has a lot of combo (Storm as mentioned above, a couple Ichorid, one mono-R Imperial Painter, and one High Tide), quite a few black sui variants (I've seen a few Eva Green and Deadguy Ale), and some Thresh. Oh, and Merfolk is pretty popular (the main reason I wanted to build it, because I keep seeing how good it is). I haven't seen any Landstill, CounterTop, Goblins, or Elves. The random SB I took 2 seconds to come up with:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Relic of Progenitus (2x Relic + 1x Gaea's Blessing if I MD 1)
3x Echoing Truth
3x Back to Basics
3x Propaganda
(I think this is geared too much towards Ichorid... most likely because that's what my friend plays)

My two cent:

Run at least 20 creatures. So 2 more Souvereign should do the trick.
12 Islands is too hard when you play 8 3cc creatures at 8 UU creatures. I would probably cut one Mutavault for an Island and add an additional Island. SO you have to cut 3 cards: -1 Daze, -2 Wipe Away (or Jitte) or personally I would put Stifle SB so -3 Stifle.

BtB hasnt been to helpful in recent tournaments so I do not bring it anymore. Propaganda is OK since I missed it last tournament against Dredge. Echoing Truth is a must include for me. Relic for me is a metagame call. Since I play Goyfmyself I do not need it to shrink him just for Dredge (where propaganda actually is better) and Loam. Needle is always good but it depends if you are playing Jitte main or not (at least in my build). Since I do not play Jitte main it takes the spot of Needles since the latter mainly is against opposing Jittes. Sure it helps against a lot of other things but ... yeah .. I mean you can just bring 15 cards and Needle is not especially against something, it has a great flexibility but a narrow inescabability. So I can bring it against Survival (obvious), Zoo (Lavamancer), Landstill (Mishra) and a lot of builds but it just shuts down a tiny bit of the deck (even Survival builds do not need Survival operating these days => Elves)

@Finn: Conclusio Finalis: What I meant and what also is your opinon is that Jitte sucks against Zoo.

[dyzzy]

Note that I only said I might not have Stifles. I might be able to get them at the last minute if I borrow from someone or, worst case scenario, buy them from the store. I just want a Plan B in case I can't. Same thing goes for the Thrashers (if I put them in) or the Chalices, or any other cards that aren't already in my original list. (And because of that, I don't want anything too expensive, I'd say Stifle and Chalice would be the limit.)

Chalice at 0 is for ANT/TES, right? What does it do for other combos (and other MUs in general I guess)?

Edit: @Nekrataal: 12 lords MD? That seems like a lot...
I haven't had any trouble with getting stuff out on 12 Islands + Vials, is it really that bad?
For the side, are you saying cut the Needles or keep them? I can't really tell. I just have them in there because I usually just have Needle on auto-include. (Also the MUs you list I haven't seen at all in my meta.)

So from these comments, for the side: -3 Needle, -3 BtB, +3 Chalice, +3 Stifle?

[Nekrataal]

Note that I only said I might not have Stifles. I might be able to get them at the last minute if I borrow from someone or, worst case scenario, buy them from the store. I just want a Plan B in case I can't. Same thing goes for the Thrashers (if I put them in) or the Chalices, or any other cards that aren't already in my original list. (And because of that, I don't want anything too expensive, I'd say Stifle and Chalice would be the limit.)

Chalice at 0 is for ANT/TES, right? What does it do for other combos (and other MUs in general I guess)?

It shuts down LED which is good against Storm and Dredge, Chrome Mox and Petal as well ... sometimes Mox Diamond (if played). In Storm it also disables Pact of Negotiation. You should start with that because you do not know if you live Turn 2. For both decks it attacks their free manabase.

Chalice at 1 is also good against Storm. It disables a lot of tutoring and disrupting (Duress, Brainstorm) power though Chalice at 0 is probably better.

For the Dredge matchup Chalice is not that great. Chalice at 0 for LED is OK, Chalice for 1 against Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy and Careful Study probaly is better but since you need Cursecatcher for that matchup this is not a good idea. For the dredge matchup Propaganda is much better. Since most lists do not play any basic land, Propaganda + Wasteland = GG

EDIT: Well 18 creatures is not eneough. If you read through the thread 20 are recommended in general as a minimum. And what is wrong about 12 Lords? Pump up your folks! Make them big. You also can add Wake Thrasher of course. Needle isnt too bad, so in a random Meta they are probably the right choice. I was just saying that I do not play them becasue they are not specific enough for certain matchups and if you have some clue of the metagame in your area then there are probably better solutions e.g. Chalice.

[dyzzy]

If you read through the thread 20 are recommended in general as a minimum.
Read through all 100 pages? :eek: Thanks for the 20 min tip though.


And what is wrong about 12 Lords? Pump up your folks! Make them big. You also can add Wake Thrasher of course.
Yeah, I don't know why I said that it seems like too much. By the way, has anyone tried a Thrasher/Sovereign split? It seems to me like Thrasher + Sovereign = good times. Or is it better to just have 4x Sovereign?

[tivadar]

It shuts down LED which is good against Storm and Dredge, Chrome Mox and Petal as well ... sometimes Mox Diamond (if played). In Storm it also disables Pact of Negotiation. You should start with that because you do not know if you live Turn 2. For both decks it attacks their free manabase.

Chalice at 1 is also good against Storm. It disables a lot of tutoring and disrupting (Duress, Brainstorm) power though Chalice at 0 is probably better.

For the Dredge matchup Chalice is not that great. Chalice at 0 for LED is OK, Chalice for 1 against Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy and Careful Study probaly is better but since you need Cursecatcher for that matchup this is not a good idea. For the dredge matchup Propaganda is much better. Since most lists do not play any basic land, Propaganda + Wasteland = GG

That's what it does against the combo matchup, yes, but the fact that it's also relevant against burn makes it very appealing. Generally, if it was *just* combo, I might think about a different card. Given the other things it helps against, it's probably a worthy inclusion. And yes, I'd play my first at 0 against any storm based combo (minus solidarity) then follow it up with another at 1 if possible. 1 shuts out some of your stuff, but having a zero and a 1 down makes it very hard for a storm player to do just about anything at all.

EDIT: I'm a bit partial to a 10 lord setup... 2 Sovereigns can give you that extra oomph. Then you can go with 2-4 thrasher as well. I will say, against combo, sovereign sounds more appealing as it tends to be a quicker win (has an impact immediately as opposed to attacking next turn).

EDITEDIT: If you have any amount of ichorid, I'd just drop wipe away entirely and run echoing truth instead. It's just so much better!

[Nekrataal]

Read through all 100 pages? :eek: Thanks for the 20 min tip though.


Yeah, I don't know why I said that it seems like too much. By the way, has anyone tried a Thrasher/Sovereign split? It seems to me like Thrasher + Sovereign = good times. Or is it better to just have 4x Sovereign?

I just said it to back up my argument ;)

Actually I think it is pretty marginal on the general level. On the one hand Wake Thrasher is just better in certain matchups because he can beat for 5+ easily without any Lord support. With Lord (Islandwalk) support he can end the game in one strike. On the other hand against red he sucks because 1/1 is much too fragile. Either way is a good idea. I wouldnt count too much on the synergy between Souvereign and Trasher though.

[Skeggi]

I think Jitte sux ass against Zoo. Jitte is far better against Threshold, aggro loam, and other decks that have fewer creatures and fewer spot removal.
The bold part is the important bit. Jitte is pretty much worthless if you have nothing to equip it to, obviously. But I disagree with the statement 'Jitte sux ass against Zoo'. I have always sided in Jitte against Zoo and have yet to regret it. Yes, I've had problems maintaining a creature on board to carry it, but there are plenty occasions where I do get a creature with Jitte online; once you have a creature equiped with Jitte counters (preferably a lord), you're 60% to winning the game because they can't just bolt down your creature anymore, and annoying pesks like Grim Lavamancers bite the dust.

I must add that Jitte alone ofcourse does not win against Zoo. My sideboard is pretty Zoo orientated because it's a common deck in my meta and pretty much our worst match-up.

[_erbs_]

After loosing to a zoo deck again, never won a tourny event against a zoo, i was wondering maybe adding more countermagic might help or adding kira the glass spinner in the SB could help in the zoo matchup ?

Im also having a hardtime using jitte against a zoo deck. My lords are almost dead after i cast them.

Once grimlavamancer hits the board and you have no means of bounce or killing it its almost a lost cause.

[dyzzy]

It's a good thing Zoo is apparently non-existent in my meta based on the comments I keep seeing! (And of course, I'll be matched up against the one Zoo player in the area.)


EDITEDIT: If you have any amount of ichorid, I'd just drop wipe away entirely and run echoing truth instead. It's just so much better!
Are you sure? Even dropping Wipe Away completely from the side?

[Skeggi]

The key cards I use against Zoo are Stifles, Back to Basics and Wastelands. Zoo (especially Domain Zoo) has a weak manabase that's easily disrupted. Once you have this package working against Zoo, it's much easier to keep a creature alive on the board and load him up with a Jitte. Keep in mind: it's still a hard match-up, but very possible to win.

The other way to go is to splash white and run Absolute Law. That ought to make your Jitte stick :smile:.

The thing about Jitte is that all its abilities are very useful against Zoo: whether it is to kill his creatures, safe your creatures from nasty bolts or give extra life against the abundance of direct damage thrown at your face.

[_erbs_]

The key cards I use against Zoo are Stifles, Back to Basics and Wastelands. Zoo (especially Domain Zoo) has a weak manabase that's easily disrupted. Once you have this package working against Zoo, it's much easier to keep a creature alive on the board and load him up with a Jitte. Keep in mind: it's still a hard match-up, but very possible to win.

The other way to go is to splash white and run Absolute Law. That ought to make your Jitte stick :smile:.

The thing about Jitte is that all its abilities are very useful against Zoo: whether it is to kill his creatures, safe your creatures from nasty bolts or give extra life against the abundance of direct damage thrown at your face.

I removed stifles in my list lol...., but i sided in 4 bebs, 3 back to basics, 4 echoing truth still no sucess..., hmmm stifles yes they are indeed very strong especially when you could draw them early and hit your opponents fetch's. Last time i used stifles against a zoo the 4 copies never came out at the time i needed them (early game). I could stifle my opponets lands mid game but its almost has no effect on him.

Maybe i just have crappy luck against zoo but ever time i could cast a back to basic even with fow backup it still ends up getting destoryed.

[Nekrataal]

The key cards I use against Zoo are Stifles, Back to Basics and Wastelands. Zoo (especially Domain Zoo) has a weak manabase that's easily disrupted. Once you have this package working against Zoo, it's much easier to keep a creature alive on the board and load him up with a Jitte. Keep in mind: it's still a hard match-up, but very possible to win.

The other way to go is to splash white and run Absolute Law. That ought to make your Jitte stick :smile:.

The thing about Jitte is that all its abilities are very useful against Zoo: whether it is to kill his creatures, safe your creatures from nasty bolts or give extra life against the abundance of direct damage thrown at your face.

Sorry but that is definitely not my impression. Stifle is the first card I would board against Zoo because it does basically nothing. Also Wasteland and BtB do no good. Why? Because Zoo just needs 1 Land to play 2/3 of its spells and 2 lands to play 95% of the deck. Even if you keep U open for stifling a fetchland or you waste a land they will not be stopped except they kept a shitty 1 Land hand. Also if the opponent is smart enough he will fetch for basics instead of Duals. In addition if you count on the disruption like Stifle / Wasteland you are getting behind because you do nothing to up your own defense so basically you are reducing chances to play a Lord earlier or maybe to play a Cursecatcher Turn 1.

My tip against Zoo with a Mono U version would be to not waste there land until absolutely necessary but keep it to surely get to 3+ Mana. You need to assemble a pumped army as soon as possible or you are toast. BtB is useless against Zoo (due to them having access to basics) so you better play ET or Bouncespells. Counter / Force a 1 Turn Nacatl or Ape because they can get very far before you have a Lord or two out. If you expect a lot of Zoo splash white because Mono U has a really hard time. Even Dreadnaughts or Kira didnt do the trick for me in the past when playing the mono-colored version.

[Plaguekeeper]

Ive found that Mind Harness is an absolute beating vs zoo.. ive not had problems with that deck since I started siding them.
Drop a Vial on turn 1 let them drop a goyf/figure/whatever, take it from them and watch them freakout having to try to burn their own guy before I beat their head in with it.
If nothing else, it draws out a REB and helps keep your guys on the board.

Echoing truth is really good to stall them out or get lavamancers off the board..

[Nekrataal]

Ive found that Mind Harness is an absolute beating vs zoo.. ive not had problems with that deck since I started siding them.
Drop a Vial on turn 1 let them drop a goyf/figure/whatever, take it from them and watch them freakout having to try to burn their own guy before I beat their head in with it.
If nothing else, it draws out a REB and helps keep your guys on the board.

Echoing truth is really good to stall them out or get lavamancers off the board..

ET just gives you 1 Turn maximum, maybe 2 if you can play it with the right timing. Still all their creatures are bigger than yours initially. Bounce of course is the only thing you have access to in Mono U so it is not that bad but also not that great. Mind Harness I think it is better but then it never really mattered for me in the past. Without Vial it kind of sucks because you cannot get ahead just stall. With Vial out it can be good to gain 1-2 turns especially if you have a Goyf they cannot easily burn. In the end the matchup doesnt improve that much from my experience. So from 25/75 to 30/70 maybe depending of ourse on the hate that Zoo can bring in. I my eyes the most annoying thing that can happen is a Vexing Shusher.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Wake Thrasher seems to not have caught on with the rule change... why is this not a 3-4 of?

[gamegeek2]

More lords also came with M10

[Monochrome]

In a mono blue build, I've taken to using 10 lords, and split 2 wake thrashers and 2 sovereigns. Its been working out really well for me in testing so far, with thrasher adding a bit of explosiveness and sovereign + thrasher has won more than a few games together.

[Skeggi]

Sorry but that is definitely not my impression. Stifle is the first card I would board against Zoo because it does basically nothing. Also Wasteland and BtB do no good. Why? Because Zoo just needs 1 Land to play 2/3 of its spells and 2 lands to play 95% of the deck.
You're probably facing more Naya Zoo than me. Over here it's mostly Domain Zoo, because that actually reaches top 8 around here.

My tip against Zoo with a Mono U version would be to not waste there land until absolutely necessary but keep it to surely get to 3+ Mana. You need to assemble a pumped army as soon as possible or you are toast. BtB is useless against Zoo (due to them having access to basics) so you better play ET or Bouncespells. Counter / Force a 1 Turn Nacatl or Ape because they can get very far before you have a Lord or two out. If you expect a lot of Zoo splash white because Mono U has a really hard time.
Making a pumped army usually doesn't cut it, because Volcanic Fallout/Firespout + Extra burn on a lord/PtE will wipe your board and you will lose the game. The problem with stuff like Chill and Absolute Law is that Domain Zoo has plenty ways outside red to hurt you really bad. Kira's still die, Dreadnoughts succumb to Pridemages.

Granted, I mostly test against Domain Zoo, because as said, it's more common here (but that's simply because it's a better deck than Naya Zoo in general). Domain Zoo runs no basics and the package I mentioned is extremely effective against them.

Against Naya Zoo I'd go for the anti-red package. Againt Domain Zoo I'd prefer the anti-nonbasic package.

[Nekrataal]

You're probably facing more Naya Zoo than me. Over here it's mostly Domain Zoo, because that actually reaches top 8 around here.

Making a pumped army usually doesn't cut it, because Volcanic Fallout/Firespout + Extra burn on a lord/PtE will wipe your board and you will lose the game. The problem with stuff like Chill and Absolute Law is that Domain Zoo has plenty ways outside red to hurt you really bad. Kira's still die, Dreadnoughts succumb to Pridemages.

Granted, I mostly test against Domain Zoo, because as said, it's more common here (but that's simply because it's a better deck than Naya Zoo in general). Domain Zoo runs no basics and the package I mentioned is extremely effective against them.

Against Naya Zoo I'd go for the anti-red package. Againt Domain Zoo I'd prefer the anti-nonbasic package.

Granted, over here it is RGW Zoo exclusively. I never played against nor saw any Domain lately (last 6 month).

[Finn]

@Guy I don't Know: This deck got a few shiny new bonuses from M10. Wake Thrasher got a pretty cool boost with the rules change. And the removal of stacked combat damage in a deck with pretty much zero combat tricks also is a help. And a lot of people are testing out the new lord in the place of Wake Thrasher. We will see if it turns out to be a better option. I have tested my fair share and I am still on the fence on this issue.

[akiratheoni]

Hey guys I run a Merfolk deck and it does fairly well (I place in the top 4 or 5 every time I play it when I lived in a different city) but in the last two tournaments I've been in I lost the final round to Affinity. What are some good anti-Affinity Sideboard cards? My sideboard is currently anti-aggro since my previous metagame was most aggro, but since I've moved, the metagame is slightly different.

[HPB_Eggo]

Hey guys I run a Merfolk deck and it does fairly well (I place in the top 4 or 5 every time I play it when I lived in a different city) but in the last two tournaments I've been in I lost the final round to Affinity. What are some good anti-Affinity Sideboard cards? My sideboard is currently anti-aggro since my previous metagame was most aggro, but since I've moved, the metagame is slightly different.

If you don't want to splash a color, Hurkyl's Recall is probably your best bet.

[coraz86]

Hey guys I run a Merfolk deck and it does fairly well (I place in the top 4 or 5 every time I play it when I lived in a different city) but in the last two tournaments I've been in I lost the final round to Affinity. What are some good anti-Affinity Sideboard cards? My sideboard is currently anti-aggro since my previous metagame was most aggro, but since I've moved, the metagame is slightly different.

Energy Flux (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19806) is a savage beating against Affinity, but it's kind of narrow. If your meta contains a lot of aggro, Propaganda is almost as good and exponentially less of a niche card.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

@ akiratheoni: here's a great quote (from another thread), hope it helps:


...And I don't really know how good Affinity is because I hate the deck so so much I refuse to even take the time to test against it. Instead, I carry around a playset of Energy Flux and if I even hear the word Affinity I decide that I'm going to punish everyone who plays it so brutally that they finally give up and get a real deck.

EDIT: one minute too slow...

[P.S.]

I like Energy Flux, although it'll hit your AEther Vials too.

EDIT: Wow, I was beaten on that REAL fast!

[tivadar]

Hey guys I run a Merfolk deck and it does fairly well (I place in the top 4 or 5 every time I play it when I lived in a different city) but in the last two tournaments I've been in I lost the final round to Affinity. What are some good anti-Affinity Sideboard cards? My sideboard is currently anti-aggro since my previous metagame was most aggro, but since I've moved, the metagame is slightly different.

I can see why people would run affinity now that the combat rules have been changed... /sarcasm

But in all seriousness, Energy Flux is a bigger hoser than Hurkyl's Recall, but Hurkyl's recall will serve you better against other decks (chalice, mox) and doesn't punish your vials. I'd choose it over Flux for those reasons.

Also, the other way to deal with affinity is to keep its creatures off the board. However, we're kind of weak at doing this to begin with, so yeah, recall rocks.

[Nightmare]

Kataki, War's Wage is pretty good too, I hear.

Obviously in the White splash.

[Shriekmaw]

Kataki, War's Wage is pretty good too, I hear.

Obviously in the White splash.


I will agree that Kataki is pretty good against affinity, but that would require you splashing white in merfolk. I still think if you want to splash a color then green is the better choice for goyf maindeck and better sideboard answers to some of the tougher matchups.

I do wish this deck does go away because the people that end up using playing this deck doesn't have a clue about the legacy format, they just know this deck is good.

Also, I hear this deck just auto loses to red decks. :)

[Raindown]

I do wish this deck does go away because the people that end up using playing this deck doesn't have a clue about the legacy format, they just know this deck is good.


I agree, but with that new M10 folk, I think this will be around for a while. If it is, it sadly might be the next deck I build:tongue:

[lorddotm]

Kataki, War's Wage is pretty good too, I hear.

Obviously in the White splash.

I run him in monoblue, he kicks fuckin ass.

[akiratheoni]

Whoa, that's a lot of replies for just my one request. Thanks guys, I think I'll pick up some Hurkyl's Recall. I'm saving up money to complete my Survival deck so I can't afford to do a white splash at this point. But when I do manage to get those Tundras and Flooded Strands/Polluted Delta, I will definitely run Kataki, but I do want to get those Mutavaults first as well (Only running Factories at this point).


Also, I hear this deck just auto loses to red decks. :)
In my experience, it does... my brother runs Goyf Sligh (this is why I can't run a green splash for Goyf cause he has them) and I lose 4 out of 5 games pretty much. Only time I can beat him is if i can get out a Aether Vial -> Standstill with a Factory out in play first and second turn. Post-board should be a better matchup but Kira, Great Glass Spinner doesn't work as well as I hoped again burn(it does wonders against decks that run only Swords or Path, though). I also put in Chills but I never draw them :(

One time I sideboarded in Kira without him knowing and when I cast her, he got all pissed at me. It was funny.

[_erbs_]

Kira, Great Glass Spinner doesn't work as well as I hoped again burn(it does wonders against decks that run only Swords or Path, though). I also put in Chills but I never draw them :(

One time I sideboarded in Kira without him knowing and when I cast her, he got all pissed at me. It was funny.


Hello,
May i ask how many did you used when you ran kira's and why didn't do well ?

I too in my mono :u: is really having a hard time against zoo and any decks that run red. (lightning bolts, fire ice, etc.)

thanks

[akiratheoni]

Hello,
May i ask how many did you used when you ran kira's and why didn't do well ?

I too in my mono :u: is really having a hard time against zoo and any decks that run red. (lightning bolts, fire ice, etc.)

thanks
I'm running two Kiras. It's not that Kira was ineffective, but it's just that burn always has at least two spells or something of the sort (Grim Lavamancer and Seal of Fire come to mind) to get rid of the Kira and then continue burning off the guys.

Where Kira IS effective is when the deck you're playing has only one or two sets of removal. For example, I played against Landstill, and I dropped Kira. My opponent could do nothing since he needed to Swords/Path Kira TWICE then he can start killing off my guys one by one. That would mean he would need three Swords/Paths to do this effectively. He needed to dig for his Wrath of God which he spent the entire game trying unsuccessfully.

I think Zoo/burn has too much removal for Kira to be really, really good. But I don't think it's a bad sideboard card. Just beware of Merfolk Sovereign's ability as well as Umezawa's Jitte if you sideboard in Kira, because you'll need to pay the equip cost twice for Jitte and stuff.

[_erbs_]

Would bumping kira to 3 help against burn matchups if your build is just mono :u: ?

[Skeggi]

You have to realize that when you side in Kira's, they side in Volcanic Fallout.

[Ch@os]

Chill?! Volcanic Fallout costing (5) or with another chill (7) is not funny :D


Whats about this board:

3x Relic
3x BEB
3x Chill
3x Back to Basics
3x Echoing Truth


Too much anti red? They are 3x Stifle and 2x Kira in the MB. And more creatures with 2x Trasher/2xNewLord.

[Nekrataal]

I'm running two Kiras. It's not that Kira was ineffective, but it's just that burn always has at least two spells or something of the sort (Grim Lavamancer and Seal of Fire come to mind) to get rid of the Kira and then continue burning off the guys.

Where Kira IS effective is when the deck you're playing has only one or two sets of removal. For example, I played against Landstill, and I dropped Kira. My opponent could do nothing since he needed to Swords/Path Kira TWICE then he can start killing off my guys one by one. That would mean he would need three Swords/Paths to do this effectively. He needed to dig for his Wrath of God which he spent the entire game trying unsuccessfully.

I think Zoo/burn has too much removal for Kira to be really, really good. But I don't think it's a bad sideboard card. Just beware of Merfolk Sovereign's ability as well as Umezawa's Jitte if you sideboard in Kira, because you'll need to pay the equip cost twice for Jitte and stuff.

Lavamancer sucks most out of all Creatures Zoo / Sligh plays because it can wreck your board completely if you have not an army of Lords out already. Anyway there is nothing you can do in a Mono U version to have a fair (50/50) matchup against those decks. It will always be less than 50%. However most "suckessful" to me (still not bringing the matchup to 50% due to its inconsistency) seemed a combination of Kira + Dreadnaughts in the version where you already have Stifle mainboard.

[Tacosnape]

Misdirection and Jitte maindeck help. Not saying they fix the problem, but they help a lot. Done right, it's a 2-for-2 card trade, with you paying 0 mana and them paying the cost of the creature plus the cost of the burn spell (So, 2 to 3). Plus it gets rid of threats on the board that can ruin your day.

I've stolen a handful of games against red by Misdirecting timely burn spells to Pridemages, Lavamancers, Nacatls, Apes, and even twice to Tarmogoyfs.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I do wish this deck does go away because the people that end up using playing this deck doesn't have a clue about the legacy format, they just know this deck is good.


Honestly dude, I don't know whether to "+1" this statement, or flame the fuck out of you... So I'm going to try to find a happy medium:

I haven't read this thread in several months, and now I'm seeing why... There's very little progress, it's mostly just people that are new to the deck re-hashing the same ideas over and over.

Also, it doesn't seem like anyone has actually done much legwork in testing the deck and its possible variants. Obviously, I'm just as guilty of this as anyone, perhaps more-so than some... but for example, have we actually seen any sort of solid data about how splashing various colors affects the deck?

The same mediocre cards keep getting suggested because people do not bother to read the thread at all before suggesting Cold-Eyed Selkie, or some-other-such nonsense (and yes, Phoenix Ignition, if you're reading this I realize I'm the dumbass who suggested Unstable Mutation back when I was super-new to the deck... *cringe*)

I think many people mistakenly interpret this as a "budget deck," which attracts many inexperienced players to adopt it, since they can build it for cheaper than Zoo or Tempo Thresh, etc. Additionally, it leads many good players who pay attention to the Legacy archetype to dismiss it as a n00b deck or whatever. What this leads to is a bunch of people who don't know their ass from their elbow (or, I suppose in keeping with the Merfolk theme, their dorsal fin from their blowhole) asking the same redundant questions on here, and the people who do know the deck well just get tired of discussing the same half-baked ideas over and over and stop reading the thread (like I did)...

The fact of the matter is that there don't seem to be many recent developments in this deck's general strategy or card selection. And this is leading the development of the deck to stagnate, which breaks my heart just a little bit, for real.

So, I guess all I really have added with this post is "+1 to the general bitching about lack of innovation," but I wanted to get that stuff off my chest.

I'd really love to hear from some of the folks that I consider the vanguards of this archetype (Finn, Piceli, Phoenix Ignition, and a whole bunch of others whose handles slip my mind at the moment) about where they feel the "Merfolk Deck" is in the metagame right now, and hopefully, I'd like to see someone put it some hard playtesting and offer up some data... I swear I'd do it myself if I could put together a decent Legacy gauntlet without printing up a billion proxies, or had a PC to run MWS on these days... :cry:

[P.S.]

I prefer mono-blue. I really dislike having Wasteland targets. Merfolk plays so many cards that are just sick in Legacy right now. Daze is better than it has any right to be. Force of Will is nuts. Æther Vial is amazingly powerful. I think Stifle is fantastic in the metagame too.

My biggest problem is which creatures I want to run. I playtested with the version that ran Ports, Wake Thrasher and Tidal Warrior and I didn't like it. I like the version that runs 12 "Lords" in Atlantis, Merfolk Sovereign and Merfolk Reejerey the best, I think.

This is what I like so far:

CREATURES (20)
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merfolk Reejerey
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept

SPELLS (20)
4 Æther Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Stifle

LANDS (20)
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

20/20/20. Direct and to the point. Nice and concise. Vial followed by Standstill is amazing. A Vial on 2 is amazing. Having FoW, Daze and Stifle in this metagame is really good too. I really like this deck and currently put it behind only ANT and CB in the meta.

Sideboarding, you have a plethora of options depending on what you think that you're going to run into. Blue Elemental Blast, Chill, Hibernation, Chalice of the Void, Energy Flux, Misdirection, Relic of Progenitus, Mind Harness, Pithing Needle, whatever!

If I didn't think ANT was the best deck, I would run Merfolk for sure.

[Nightmare]

@ Duke - I'm curious to find out how the deletion of the green splash, the addition of white, and the streamlining of the deck to run 12 lords doesn't make the cut for you as "development."

What, if not that, are you looking for?

[thesilentpyro]

I prefer mono-blue. I really dislike having Wasteland targets. Merfolk plays so many cards that are just sick in Legacy right now. Daze is better than it has any right to be. Force of Will is nuts. Æther Vial is amazingly powerful. I think Stifle is fantastic in the metagame too.

My biggest problem is which creatures I want to run. I playtested with the version that ran Ports, Wake Thrasher and Tidal Warrior and I didn't like it. I like the version that runs 12 "Lords" in Atlantis, Merfolk Sovereign and Merfolk Reejerey the best, I think.

This is what I like so far:

CREATURES (20)
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merfolk Reejerey
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept

SPELLS (20)
4 Æther Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Stifle

LANDS (20)
16 Island
4 Wasteland

20/20/20. Direct and to the point. Nice and concise. Vial followed by Standstill is amazing. A Vial on 2 is amazing. Having FoW, Daze and Stifle in this metagame is really good too. I really like this deck and currently put it behind only ANT and CB in the meta.

Sideboarding, you have a plethora of options depending on what you think that you're going to run into. Blue Elemental Blast, Chill, Hibernation, Chalice of the Void, Energy Flux, Misdirection, Relic of Progenitus, Mind Harness, Pithing Needle, whatever!

If I didn't think ANT was the best deck, I would run Merfolk for sure.

With twelve lords, you NEED mutavault. There's no good reason not to run it--not only does it get better with more lords, but it improves the Standstill game. Most also reduce some of your 4-ofs, such as Stifle or Daze, in order to include some other utility, such as bounce or jitte.

[Nekrataal]

@ Duke - I'm curious to find out how the deletion of the green splash, the addition of white, and the streamlining of the deck to run 12 lords doesn't make the cut for you as "development."

What, if not that, are you looking for?

Who is deleting the green splash? I think there are still several routes to take. The classic build with 8 Lords, Thrasher and either full Denial (Stifle) or Aggro package (Bounce or Jitte), the more recent build with 12 Lords, the white splash version, the green splash version and humbly putting in my version the Ugw variant which is still awesome too play imo. I think that Duke is right in a way that a lot of ppl are picking up the deck and start with the classic or obvious "uuh there's a new Lord everybody heard about" list. It is a proven DTB list that is fun to play and for a Legacy deck easy to assemble so I just can say they made a good choice. Unfortunately this leads to the fact that there is not a lot of progress compared to the mass of ppl that seem to play the deck. A lot of reusage going on instead of innovating. Although Mono U has not much more to offer for improvements ... we have been through every choice a dozen times in this thread ...

[P.S.]

With twelve lords, you NEED mutavault.

Mutavault is supposed to be in there, I just forgot. My point about Wasteland still stands though. Thanks for mentioning it though!

I won't ever play with Jitte in Merfolk. Bounce I like. I've messed around with 2 mainboard Misdirections or 2 Echoing Truth or 2 Rushing River. There's a lot of options. That's just a "gauntlet deck" for playtesting purposes.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Is there a section in this thread that addresses a U/r version that utilizes bolts and fire/ice (yes, like tempo thresh) in order to have a better aggro matchup?

If not, has anyone tried it?

[tivadar]

Is bolt better than STP? I understand there's no lifegain for your opponent, but still... Also, does red provide answers to enchantments and artifacts? Does it provide answers to things burning your creatures? I'm willing to consider a red splash, but bolt and fire/ice to me aren't really a good argument for it. As I've said before, the point of a splash is not the mainboard, but what it offers in the sideboard...

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Is bolt better than STP? I understand there's no lifegain for your opponent, but still... Also, does red provide answers to enchantments and artifacts? Does it provide answers to things burning your creatures? I'm willing to consider a red splash, but bolt and fire/ice to me aren't really a good argument for it. As I've said before, the point of a splash is not the mainboard, but what it offers in the sideboard...

Im aware that the main reason to consider the splash is sideboard cards however, the red splash I propose is to both the main deck and the sideboard.
Pro Cons of red splash

Pro:
-Burn out lavamancers, nactals, lackeys and shit
-Fire/Ice is removal and tempo as well as a way to stop goyf from getting in the way sans LoA.
-Reach
-Sideboard Moons and (arguably) lavamancer

Cons:
Stifle/Waste vulnerability
At least in the version im testing, 16 creatures may be a bit light
Sb option are a bit limited with red

I'm sure there are more but thats mostly what I've thought about. And while people will say that white offers better SB i have tested the white side and honestly, zoo is still a piss poor matchup since they almost always take g1 and can easily steal another game on the back of bolts, Fireblast, Goyf and Nactl and Lavamancer. Red offers a different route in stopping these threats or at least trying to race.
Also sideboard red blasts make up for what might be a slightly weaker blue matchup.

Just my thoughts.

[lorddotm]

I think that Merfolk is making itself open to more hate. Part of the reason the deck was so good is because 30% of the format had 8 almost wasted slots against us, with fetches and duals, we open ourselves up to the same hate we give out, and if we are going to weaken ourselves, Tempo Thresh is a better deck.

[_erbs_]

I think that Merfolk is making itself open to more hate. Part of the reason the deck was so good is because 30% of the format had 8 almost wasted slots against us, with fetches and duals, we open ourselves up to the same hate we give out, and if we are going to weaken ourselves, Tempo Thresh is a better deck.

Well said...

Currently the standard merfolk list run's 6-8 colorless mana already in a 19-20 land count. If your opponent is able to waste, destory or stifle one of your early lands and you don't draw any lands to recover from it your pressure meaning threats will weaken and you may find it hard to deal with your opponents bigger threats.

Insert different arguments on the builds... go tempo, control, go splash, etc.

As for the meta atleast here in our place. Almost all are doing adjustments to combat the merfolk deck since it has proved that it could really win tournys. After that adjustment i find it hard to win espceially against red.

Some adjustments i've seen so far:
- red splash is now more visible
- boardsweepers that can't be stifled are built in main deck
- abuse the lack of evasion by using flying critters that uses jitte and ride it to victory or the use of moat
- pridemage visibility

As for the development of the deck. Like the post above color splash is a development itself. People are finding ways to make it better to match the meta in their place.

There are alot of people reading and posting in the forums i doubt it if they would read all the early pages of it. Thus old issues are still coming up. Alot of people are now curious and wants to play a merfolk deck since its doing well in tourny's thus several questions are poping out.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I hear y'all. I suppose I was over-reacting a bit, but I was mostly just trying to shake things up a bit around here. :wink:

Anyhow, I realize Merfolk Sovereign has been making a bit of a splash, but I'm really hoping for Zendikar to have some kewl shit for this deck, since they're bringing back alternate mana costs, albeit in what seems like a form with more conditional aspects:

Whiplash Trap UU3

Instant - Trap
If an opponent had 2 or more creatures enter the battlefield under his or her control this turn, you may pay U rather than pay Whiplash Trap’s casting cost.
Return two target creatures to their owner's hand.
Illus. Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

...I don't see this card really making the sideboard cut for Merfolk, nonetheless, it makes me hopeful.

Oh, and I hope "Instant- Trap" is some sort of typo... Ugh.

[chokin]

I got first place tonight at my local tournament. 20+ people. The more I play Merfolk at that place, the more I want a splash.

I ran the 24 creature list: 12 Lords, 4 Thrashers, 4 Cursecatcher, 4 Silvergill.

Match 1 vs 4c or 5c something
I played solitaire.

Match 2 vs 4c Slivers
G1 - I keep an awful hand. I lose to not being able to find mana or Vial.
G2 - Turn one Vial and counter everything except a Sinew Sliver, but win.
G3 - Play like 4 Lords and Mutavault ends up being a 7/7 at one point.

Match 3 vs Burn
G1 - I mulligan to 4, but pull through miraculously. He stalls out and I get him with a Lord and a Mutavault slowly.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 (fucking colorless mana with no Vial or Islands either). I push him to like 6 life with a Standstill on board, but then he floats RR, Fireblasts, I draw 3 Merfolk and no Force of Will. He Forks it twice and finishes with a Fireblast #2. 16 damage in one turn. Fuck Fork.
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.

Match 3 vs Angelgeddon Stax
G1 - Wakethrasher hits for 4, 5, 6, and then 7.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 but it's awful. I counter everything until he finally resolves and Angel and beats my face in.
G3 - Early Standstill and 2 Silvergills. He gets a Ghostly Prison through and Armageddons. I end up with a Jitte on a Gill. He gets a Maze of Ith. I'm able to play Kira which is the lawls. I end up getting him.

Thrasher is hit or miss. Great vs nonburn. Awful vs burn. I like 12 Lords. Not set on 7/20 of my lands being colorless though. In my meta, Wasteland is also hit or miss. There are a lot of decks with all basics. But there are some decks that it absolutely ruins. But Mutavault is sick too, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I could drop some number of Thrasher for either draw or extra lands. Not sure. White splash seems like the way to go. STP, Absolute Law and Disenchant are all very appealing. I don't like not being able to deal with Moat and other pesky enchantments or artifacts.

[RogueMTG]

...
Match 3 vs Burn
...
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.
...

Not that you didn't win anyway, but if he plays REB, passes priority w/o forking, and you pass back. It resolves and he can't fork it + you can't counter it.

[chokin]

Not that you didn't win anyway, but if he plays REB, passes priority w/o forking, and you pass back. It resolves and he can't fork it + you can't counter it.

Yeah I bitched at him for that shit. He threw a little fit. It's like after he knew it'd resolve he wanted to Fork it but I saw the opportunity to 2 for 1 him so I put on my coolface and we stepped it back. His biggest mistake was not playing anything when I said "End my mainphase". If he'd done stuff then, I'd be unable to attack.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah I bitched at him for that shit. He threw a little fit. It's like after he knew it'd resolve he wanted to Fork it but I saw the opportunity to 2 for 1 him so I put on my coolface and we stepped it back. His biggest mistake was not playing anything when I said "End my mainphase". If he'd done stuff then, I'd be unable to attack.
So that's what that was about. I was too busy thrashing Truffle Shuffle with Canadian Thresh, so all I heard was something about "can't Fork".

Splash green and run Tarmogoyf and Grips. Also, how much burn is there, usually? Thrasher is so good that cutting it for one matchup seems weak.

[chokin]

So that's what that was about. I was too busy thrashing Truffle Shuffle with Canadian Thresh, so all I heard was something about "can't Fork".

Splash green and run Tarmogoyf and Grips. Also, how much burn is there, usually? Thrasher is so good that cutting it for one matchup seems weak.

Burn decks usually account for ~10-20% of the field there. Then there are a couple control decks that use Fire/Ice. It's just like how I said Stifle is hit or miss there because you can play against decks with 0 activated abilities or decks that would be devastated by Stifle.

Pingveno plays a white splash (he was playing Ultimate Walker against you). He likes it a lot. It's an 18/22/20 Land/Creature/Spells list with STP and Sygg, River Guide and Mark of Asylum(I have Absolute Law) in the board. He was experimenting with Harm's Way as well, but I think it's been removed.

I've seen some green splashes on deckcheck, but I haven't tested it. My graveyard usually isn't very diverse usually. Counters and Standstill are usually in the yard. I really rely on my opponent to make Goyf bigger. Plus Relic and Goyf don't mix and although few people run Goyf, turning him into a 0/1 while I keep my big mean fishmen is unfair.

[akiratheoni]

I got first place tonight at my local tournament. 20+ people. The more I play Merfolk at that place, the more I want a splash.

I ran the 24 creature list: 12 Lords, 4 Thrashers, 4 Cursecatcher, 4 Silvergill.

Match 1 vs 4c or 5c something
I played solitaire.

Match 2 vs 4c Slivers
G1 - I keep an awful hand. I lose to not being able to find mana or Vial.
G2 - Turn one Vial and counter everything except a Sinew Sliver, but win.
G3 - Play like 4 Lords and Mutavault ends up being a 7/7 at one point.

Match 3 vs Burn
G1 - I mulligan to 4, but pull through miraculously. He stalls out and I get him with a Lord and a Mutavault slowly.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 (fucking colorless mana with no Vial or Islands either). I push him to like 6 life with a Standstill on board, but then he floats RR, Fireblasts, I draw 3 Merfolk and no Force of Will. He Forks it twice and finishes with a Fireblast #2. 16 damage in one turn. Fuck Fork.
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.

Match 3 vs Angelgeddon Stax
G1 - Wakethrasher hits for 4, 5, 6, and then 7.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 but it's awful. I counter everything until he finally resolves and Angel and beats my face in.
G3 - Early Standstill and 2 Silvergills. He gets a Ghostly Prison through and Armageddons. I end up with a Jitte on a Gill. He gets a Maze of Ith. I'm able to play Kira which is the lawls. I end up getting him.

Thrasher is hit or miss. Great vs nonburn. Awful vs burn. I like 12 Lords. Not set on 7/20 of my lands being colorless though. In my meta, Wasteland is also hit or miss. There are a lot of decks with all basics. But there are some decks that it absolutely ruins. But Mutavault is sick too, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I could drop some number of Thrasher for either draw or extra lands. Not sure. White splash seems like the way to go. STP, Absolute Law and Disenchant are all very appealing. I don't like not being able to deal with Moat and other pesky enchantments or artifacts.
Nice job on the first place. Btw, this is Jeff (one of the twins). Who played burn there? I don't really remember anyone that has played burn there at Showtime other than Jason. Also, was Tony the person playing Angelddon? Nice play with the kira :P

[Blorokis]

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

How did only 3 vial work for you? seems like one of the best cards in the deck. I usually want 4.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

I guess if you won, you won... But Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey just don't really seem like the best creatures to run if you're playing a deck that has 12 (count 'em: twelve) Merfolks in it. Seriously, you didn't find the "reveal" cost on Silvergill Adept to be a problem??

This isn't to trash your list at all. But honestly what you have there seems like it would play out very differently from most traditional Merfolk lists. You could experiment with some Trygon Predators and some Nimble Mongeese, add a couple more Vendillion Cliques, replacing the Mutavaults with Mishra's Factories, and just cut all the Merfolk from your list....

Or else you could just find the space to run some more Merfolk, which will maximize those eight creatures in there that say "+1/+1 to all Merfolk". I think you'll like your results. I hear Cursecatcher and Wake Thrasher are really good, so much so that some folks see some amount of those cards as sort of an "auto include" in Merfolk. :wink: :wink:

EDIT: Also, could we see the sideboard? Because I'm having a hard time seeing how your list easily beats Zoo and Burn...

[coraz86]

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

I agree that, though I respect that you went undefeated with it, your list looks very unconventional/strange. I'd be really interested in a tournament report if you can and are willing to write one.

[dal9ll]

So what does this deck do against Llawan, Cephalid Empress? It seems like the only thing to do is either bounce her (which seems like a fairly uneffective strategy) or steal her (still not that effective but better than bouncing her).

[Carabas]

This deck resolves a vial against Llawan, or counters her, or bounces+counters her, or uses a few wastelands and wins before she gets to the party, because she costs 4 mana, and that's a lot in legacy.

[RogueMTG]

So what does this deck do against Llawan, Cephalid Empress? It seems like the only thing to do is either bounce her (which seems like a fairly uneffective strategy) or steal her (still not that effective but better than bouncing her).

-Stifle the comes into play.
-Aether Vial still works
-You have Mutavaults.
-You play counter magic.
-G splash can go for Tarmogoyf.

Not great options, but it's still not game-over.

[Nightmare]

Generally, I win round 1, or, if that isn't good enough, I send her farming.

[tivadar]

-Stifle the comes into play.
-Aether Vial still works
-You have Mutavaults.
-You play counter magic.
-G splash can go for Tarmogoyf.

Not great options, but it's still not game-over.

Yeah, I don't seen Llawn as game ending, especially if that's the only hate they have. Obviously, it can turn the mirror match, given that all else is equal, but we definitely do have answers to this card.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Also, if you see Llawan, one thing you can do is say "Wow, thanks for devoting sideboard space against my one particular deck. How's that Goblins match-up coming for you?"

Asking what Merfolk does against a well-timed Llawan is kind of like asking what ANT can do about the opponent dropping a first turn Nether Void... The answer is "not very much," but it's also sort of a corner-case-scenario.

In all seriousness though, Llawan is a scary bitch. But I have yet to notice people making a lot of sideboard space to include her; I think luckily Merfolk does not occupy such a disproportionate amount of the meta-game for people to start packing Llawan en masse. So what we do against Llawan is in reality "not see it played very often."

[tivadar]

To me the point is that the card that is really made to hate us is not an auto-scoop. Even without bounce, vial gets around it. Sure, it hurts a bunch if they land it, but it's rather narrow and we can deal with it.

Also, Llawan is not irrelevant in other matches, primarily faerie and especially faerie stompy. Not that these see anywhere near as much play as merfolk, but still.

[tivadar]

...Mark of Asylum(I have Absolute Law) ....

I honestly can't think of a situation where mark of asylum is better than absolute law. What direct damage does he deal with that's *not* red? Barbarian ring? Absolute Law let's you deal with damage from red creates (read: damage from goblins). Isn't it strictly better?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I honestly can't think of a situation where mark of asylum is better than absolute law. What direct damage does he deal with that's *not* red? Barbarian ring? Absolute Law let's you deal with damage from red creates (read: damage from goblins). Isn't it strictly better?

Hey, when you're right, you're right... Unless, you know, that "savage Aeolipile tech" is big in their meta :rolleyes:

[_erbs_]

hello,
just want to hear your comments on my SB list.. im unsure if my SBs are the right choices.

2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's cyrpt
1 echoing truth
2 blue elemental blast
2 hydro blast
2 kira, great glass-spinner
3 thorn of amethyst
2 back to basic / umezawa's jitte / llawan cephalid empress / cold-eye selkie

the list im running is..

Lands [19]
3 mutavaults
3 wasteland
13 island

Creatures [20]
4 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reejerey
4 merfolk sovereign

Utilities [21]
4 standstill
4 aether vial
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river
4 force of will
3 daze
1 spell snare
1 counterspell
2 mana leak

thanks !!

[Skeggi]

Against what decks would you side in Selkie?

[_erbs_]

Against what decks would you side in Selkie?

mirror or any blue based decks

[Skeggi]

Well, you could ask yourself if you'd not rather have a Jitte against the mirror. The general blue based match-up is a good one, so I personally don't have any sideboard cards against them. I prefer improving the match-up against anything that's red. So far all you have are 4 blasts and Kira. I would either up that count or add something else that would help, like Threads of Disloyalty.

I wouldn't go for a Selkie in my 75 anyway. And I've tried Llawan and she was a big let-down. She's supposed to be good against the mirror, but she's not: she's slow and doesn't stop Aether Vial, and if your opponent steals her, she really starts to get annoying.

[_erbs_]

Well, you could ask yourself if you'd not rather have a Jitte against the mirror. The general blue based match-up is a good one, so I personally don't have any sideboard cards against them. I prefer improving the match-up against anything that's red. So far all you have are 4 blasts and Kira. I would either up that count or add something else that would help, like Threads of Disloyalty.

I wouldn't go for a Selkie in my 75 anyway. And I've tried Llawan and she was a big let-down. She's supposed to be good against the mirror, but she's not: she's slow and doesn't stop Aether Vial, and if your opponent steals her, she really starts to get annoying.

Thanks for the heads up on Llawan. Based on my testing jitte felt like just like a win more card. In the events in where the deck doesn't go on a regular follow meaning 1-2 creature drops early turn or a poor hand thats where jitte shines and in random aggro match-ups.

How about rock-based or aggro control decks ? would back to basics be a good one or just add more SB against red / burn ?

Have you tried running thorns of amethyst aswell ? im just going to use them against combos or spell based decks like UGr thresh or stax etc.

Threads of disloyalty seems to be a good choice...

[tivadar]

So out of curiosity, we were discussing the white splash a while back and a lot of the talk had been on STP and whether it should be mainboard or sideboard. Has Harm's Way been considered in its place (mainboard)? It 2/1's a lot of burn spells, provides a way to kill lackey/bob/others, and doesn't give your opponent life. It can in fact push through your last couple points of damage in a close game.

Just a thought, STP is strictly better as creature removal, but Harm's Way seems more versatile.

[Nightmare]

So out of curiosity, we were discussing the white splash a while back and a lot of the talk had been on STP and whether it should be mainboard or sideboard. Has Harm's Way been considered in its place (mainboard)? It 2/1's a lot of burn spells, provides a way to kill lackey/bob/others, and doesn't give your opponent life. It can in fact push through your last couple points of damage in a close game.

Just a thought, STP is strictly better as creature removal, but Harm's Way seems more versatile.

I've been running STP over Stifle in my MD for the last week or so, and it's been good, but I'm not opposed to testing out Harm's Way, either. At first glance, it seems like it could be a solid way to give headaches to Zoo, which is really all I'm looking for at this point. I'm also going to be testing Kira, since I've noticed that while Absolute Law is great against their burn spells, it still doesn't stop your lords from being Path to Exiled. That's extremely annoying.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So out of curiosity, we were discussing the white splash a while back and a lot of the talk had been on STP and whether it should be mainboard or sideboard. Has Harm's Way been considered in its place (mainboard)? It 2/1's a lot of burn spells, provides a way to kill lackey/bob/others, and doesn't give your opponent life. It can in fact push through your last couple points of damage in a close game.

Just a thought, STP is strictly better as creature removal, but Harm's Way seems more versatile.

I think Harm's Way is cool and all (infinitely more sexy than Healing Salve at least), but I think it would be crazy to take out StP in favor of Harm's Way.

The only card I can think of that I might take out in order to put in some Harm's Way would be some amount of Blue Elemental Blast/ Hydroblast/ Divert (if anyone still uses that one) from the sideboard.

Basically, it's just incorrect to say that Harm's Way can fill in on StP's job, because it's not reliable enough as a source of removal. Let's say you want to nuke a 'Goyf. If you have StP, this is basically a point and click operation. However, if you want to take out that same 'Goyf with a Harm's Way, it becomes a bit more complicated. You will have to wait for some situation where you can get one of your dudes in combat with that 'Goyf to make up for the difference (assuming the 'Goyf has more than 3 toughness at that time). Also, let's say your opponent makes a play like "burn your blocker so I can swing through with unopposed 'Goyf." What do you do? Do you use Harm's Way to save your creature and just redirect the damage to your opponent? Keep in mind that most smart players are not going to attack with that 'Goyf any more if you redirect the damage to it. But let's say you do redirect that Lightning Bolt to your opponent: Your opponent's 'Goyf is still larger than your creature, and they will still attack, forcing you to either lose a creature or soak up some damage.

I guess I'm starting to ramble a bit here. Basically, my point is that Harm's Way is a decent card, and I could see it actually being a nice 'surprise' card to bring in from our sideboard... maybe. But for the love of God, don't go running the white splash using Harm's Way instead of StP: Having hard creature removal is probably the number one reason to splash a color in this deck in the first place!! And Harm's Way may be versatile, and even mildly sexy, but it sure as fuck isn't hard creature removal.

[Skeggi]

I can see Harm's Way sitting in your sideboard if you run Swords to Plowshares maindeck. I'm affraid the card is too narrow to maindeck it.

[lorddotm]

Orb of Insight says 12 instances of the word Merfolk!!

This could be awesome possum.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Orb of Insight says 12 instances of the word Merfolk!!

This could be awesome possum.

Fingers crossed for another lord that costs 2 lol

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Fingers crossed for another lord that costs 2 lol

Or another bomb-ass Merfolk that costs either one or two mana...

Hell, while we're on the wish-list, how about a decent Merfolk that flies? I always get a little miffed by how hit-or-miss the evasion we have access to can be...

[Skeggi]

You guys actually have room in your decks for all those awesome new Merfolk? The bar is set pretty high and the list is pretty tight. I'll have to think twice about thinking twice about removing cards from the deck to accomodate any possible new Merfolk.

On the hit-and-miss topic of our evasion: I've actually won a few games because of Sovereign's ability to get another beater sneak by some Tarmogoyfs. It certainly improved our non-blue match-ups, in more ways than just giving extra toughness against burn.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I would say a cheap merfolk with a sac:bounce ability would be siiiick and exactly what this deck needs.

[sauce]

probably some landfall merfolk in zendikar, still this tribe is getting a lot of goodies.. but goblins has 17 hits in the orb i think

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So i'm a little mystified that Merfolk has failed to put in any sort of showing at GenCon this year... Contrary to what Doug Linn said in his article, the top 8 seems like it would have been a pretty favorable field to run Merfolks against. Tempo Thresh, Dredge, and Counterbalance all seem to be winnable match-ups for us.

Anyone have any ideas why there weren't any of our loveable Merfs in that winner's bracket? Is the meta shifting against us??

[lorddotm]

So i'm a little mystified that Merfolk has failed to put in any sort of showing at GenCon this year... Contrary to what Doug Linn said in his article, the top 8 seems like it would have been a pretty favorable field to run Merfolks against. Tempo Thresh, Dredge, and Counterbalance all seem to be winnable match-ups for us.

Anyone have any ideas why there weren't any of our loveable Merfs in that winner's bracket? Is the meta shifting against us??

This cannot reliably beat Canadian Thresh. The combo of 12 counters, 8 burn, and Tarnogoyf is not one we can beat, if you splash white, good fuckin lucky beating the Wasteland/Stifle part of them as well.

Merfolk is a metagame deck. It is not a deck that one can run in a metagame with burn in it. I imagine that a lot of people were running a lot of antiMerfolk tech, such as burn spells lol.

Doug Linn was right, Merfolk has no place in todays metagame without some super awesome new Merfolk being printed.

[chokin]

Crossing fingers for something that looks like:

2U - Merfarang
Tribal Instant - Merfolk
Return target permanent to it's owner's hand

1UU Merfolk Matron
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
1/1
When ~ comes into play, search your library for a Merfolk card and put that card in your hand, then shuffle your library.

I don't want a stupid Harbinger, I want a Matron.

[Tacosnape]

Crossing fingers for something that looks like:

2U - Merfarang
Tribal Instant - Merfolk
Return target permanent to it's owner's hand

Why would this not be terrible? It gains nothing from being a Merfolk.

[scrumdogg]

Why would this not be terrible? It gains nothing from being a Merfolk.

It makes the Mer-Goyf silly big...

[tivadar]

Merfolk Lackey? What?

[chokin]

Why would this not be terrible? It gains nothing from being a Merfolk.

Reejerey lets you tap or untap stuff. And it'd be tutorable by the Matron. I realize the Goyf buff would be a weakness, but I figured it's not so bad since we have Relic.

EDIT: What about a Merfolk Gush? return 2 Merfolk, draw 2. Would that bo too OP?

[Yan]

if anything, I'd like something like Crystallinen Merfolk... to grant all of our merfolk untargetability... that would be like the coolest thing ever... and slivers allready have it so why shouldn't we?

[chokin]

if anything, I'd like something like Crystallinen Merfolk... to grant all of our merfolk untargetability... that would be like the coolest thing ever... and slivers allready have it so why shouldn't we?

That's kinda what Kira does, but she sucks against Pyroclasm. I learned the hard way.

[akiratheoni]

Well, here's one of the new Merfolk from Zendikar. Doesn't seem so good, though:
http://upload.zantherus.com/files/lefhsunqavffae5ii4ij.jpg

[chokin]

Well, here's one of the new Merfolk from Zendikar. Doesn't seem so good, though:
http://upload.zantherus.com/files/lefhsunqavffae5ii4ij.jpg

Maybe if we adopted Counter Top in Merfolk. Like drop Standstill and Stifle for 4/4 or 4/3 and an extra island.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This cannot reliably beat Canadian Thresh. The combo of 12 counters, 8 burn, and Tarnogoyf is not one we can beat, if you splash white, good fuckin lucky beating the Wasteland/Stifle part of them as well.

Merfolk is a metagame deck. It is not a deck that one can run in a metagame with burn in it. I imagine that a lot of people were running a lot of antiMerfolk tech, such as burn spells lol.

Doug Linn was right, Merfolk has no place in todays metagame without some super awesome new Merfolk being printed.

I think Tempo Thresh is in their favor, but I doubt it's unwinnable. Merfolk may not be the best deck at the moment, but seriously come on. White/Green Stax? Based on the results of GenCon, and your implications, I'm supposed to believe that's more of a reliable deck than Merfolk right now? And I've spanked Dredge myself, I know for a fact that a good Merf list would have had a good run at the deck that took first.

To me, it basically says that Merfs are being hated in the meta right now more than Dredge, which is historically a deck that does well when people start deeming it no longer much of a threat.

EDIT: Here's hoping the eleven remaining Merfolk cards in Zendakar kick a lot more ass than that piece of suck... Seriously. It's like WotC feels like giving Merfolk some good stuff in Lorwyn was a complete mistake or something, from the looks of things.

[lorddotm]

Well, here's one of the new Merfolk from Zendikar. Doesn't seem so good, though:
http://upload.zantherus.com/files/lefhsunqavffae5ii4ij.jpg

Not as awesome as the card Goblins got...

In fact, I think he's quite shitty.

[Manhattan]

Most Merfolk list run 4 Daze and 4 Force, maybe some Spell Snares as backup but that's it. Stifles don't counter spells so they're out. So with that in mind playing a 3 mana 2/2 just to get a 1/1 dork from your Force and Daze doesn't seem really techy to me not even with the lords. And the last ability is pretty much win more.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Im still just praying for merfolk lackey. I mean hell they gave gobs double lackey, why not just one for the folk?

[Wargoos]

Im still just praying for merfolk lackey. I mean hell they gave gobs double lackey, why not just one for the folk?
Is this something that would really help this deck?
I'am however looking for somekind of CA merfolk like the ringleader with a not that sucky ability or for an awesome disruptive merfolk guy.

[sauce]

that stupid 3 mana 2/2 should have cost 2 mana to see any play.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Is this something that would really help this deck?
I'am however looking for somekind of CA merfolk like the ringleader with a not that sucky ability or for an awesome disruptive merfolk guy.

Lackey is fucking NUTZ dude, watch a few matches involving Goblins if you don't think that little bugger makes for explosive starts.

And by the way, a Merfolk version of Goblin Ringleader already exists... and sucks terribly. The reason Ringleader is good in Goblins is because more than half of the cards in their main-deck are Goblin cards-- not only do we not have enough viable Merfolk cards to run this type of strategy, even if we did, running a deck packed to the gills with fish would basically take away the slots that make us want to play blue in the first place -- you know, Force of Will, Daze, Standstill, that type of shit. Merfolk and Goblins both work as "swarm decks" but Goblins does this in a much different way than Merfolk.

[Wargoos]

Lackey is fucking NUTZ dude, watch a few matches involving Goblins if you don't think that little bugger makes for explosive starts.

And by the way, a Merfolk version of Goblin Ringleader already exists... and sucks terribly. The reason Ringleader is good in Goblins is because more than half of the cards in their main-deck are Goblin cards-- not only do we not have enough viable Merfolk cards to run this type of strategy, even if we did, running a deck packed to the gills with fish would basically take away the slots that make us want to play blue in the first place -- you know, Force of Will, Daze, Standstill, that type of shit. Merfolk and Goblins both work as "swarm decks" but Goblins does this in a much different way than Merfolk.

Tru.
But isn't lakey falling in the same niche as the ringleader.
Goblins explosiveness coming from the ability to play lots of hasty guys.
Merfolk doesn't has that kind of thing and we also have no SGC to abuse with a merfolk lakey.
I don't think he would be as awesome as in goblins.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Tru.
But isn't lakey falling in the same niche as the ringleader.
Goblins explosiveness coming from the ability to play lots of hasty guys.
Merfolk doesn't has that kind of thing and we also have no SGC to abuse with a merfolk lakey.
I don't think he would be as awesome as in goblins.

Yeah, and Aether Vial is bad in this deck too, huh? I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's pretty naive to say that something that lets you play creatures for free wouldn't be good in this deck.

[Wargoos]

Yeah, and Aether Vial is bad in this deck too, huh? I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's pretty naive to say that something that lets you play creatures for free wouldn't be good in this deck.

You are indeed a dick.


I don't think he would be as awesome as in goblins.
That was the important sentence you know.

Lakey still needs to connect you know?
And if it connects, what could we, as the merfolk player, cheat into the game?
Reejerey would be the best.
Goblins takes : Ringleader or Matron or SCG or Warchief.
Whats more broken?

Hope you got my point now.
Merfolk just functions differently and my doubts are reasonable.

ps: <3 for your post in the goblinsthread

sincerely,
EaD

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

You are indeed a dick.

That was the important sentence you know.

Lakey still needs to connect you know?
And if it connects, what could we, as the merfolk player, cheat into the game?
Reejerey would be the best.
Goblins takes : Ringleader or Matron or SCG or Warchief.
Whats more broken?

Hope you got my point now.
Merfolk just functions differently and my doubts are reasonable.

ps: <3 for your post in the goblinsthread

sincerely,
EaD

Ok, I feel you. Sorry to be snarky earlier, it's been a rough couple weeks for me.

You do have a point... Basically, the last batch of previews have me completely depressed about this new set, since it looks like Goblins are about to blow the fuck up, yet again. Meanwhile the only thing that's been previewed for our tribe is like a shitty throwback to the "tribal lords" from Legions.

Oh, and also, the Goblins players are all excited about Mindbreak Trap too, since now they have some good anti-combo tech... It just doesn't feel fair AT ALL.

[Tacosnape]

Well, it's not like we don't have Piracy Charm to deal with Lackey and Gator.

...

But seriously, this just makes it all the more important to be packing your Blasts in sideboard. If decks packing 8+ burn and Goblins are both so awful, it might be time to look at running 5-8 Blasts alongside Relic and wtfever else we actually want in board.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well, it's not like we don't have Piracy Charm to deal with Lackey and Gator.

...

But seriously, this just makes it all the more important to be packing your Blasts in sideboard. If decks packing 8+ burn and Goblins are both so awful, it might be time to look at running 5-8 Blasts alongside Relic and wtfever else we actually want in board.

Goblins are going to be RETARDED pretty soon. I'm honestly contemplating picking up a new deck, since I expect a resurgence of our worst match-up, and I doubt if we'll get anything as sexy as Warren Instigator coming onto our team in this set.

Frankly, I'm about this close to switching over to Dredge or Death and Taxes or some shit.

[Wargoos]

Frankly, I'm about this close to switching over to Dredge or Death and Taxes or some shit.

Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshTreshTresh!

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshTreshTresh!

Then I'd have to end my boycott on buying Tarmogoyfs... And dual lands... I'm kinda broke here, dude.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Ok, I feel you. Sorry to be snarky earlier, it's been a rough couple weeks for me.

You do have a point... Basically, the last batch of previews have me completely depressed about this new set, since it looks like Goblins are about to blow the fuck up, yet again. Meanwhile the only thing that's been previewed for our tribe is like a shitty throwback to the "tribal lords" from Legions.

Oh, and also, the Goblins players are all excited about Mindbreak Trap too, since now they have some good anti-combo tech... It just doesn't feel fair AT ALL.

Well as far as anti-combo "tech" you can ease your fears. Everyone might be having a stiffy over it right now but I can tell you as a combo player, that thing worries me less than lightning bolt. Seriously it means that i now neew 1 piece of protection IF they sideboard it and IF they draw/mulligan to it. And comboing with protection against a deck with no disruption might as well be goldfishing. Id be more worried if the sided chalice.

As for merfolk, I could always go for more lords with cool abilities since Soverign is good but still lackluster. At worst, I can still just play standard folk lol

[chokin]

Then I'd have to end my boycott on buying Tarmogoyfs... And dual lands... I'm kinda broke here, dude.

Run like:
8 Blast
4 Propaganda
3 Relic

For an SB then lol. But more seriously, the new guy may or may not see play. We'll have to see how that develops. People are trying to make it work, but it may turn Goblins into an entirely different deck.

[tivadar]

It may turn goblins into merfolk.dec... Seriously. They can significantly lower their curve with this guy and have a double striker that also drops more of their goblins. Matron and the new goblin captain become their staples. They'd probably drop warchief. They can run Kiki/SGC/... as one of's and grab/play them in a single turn.

I mean, seriously, could WotC just not stand seeing Goblins not be the #1 deck for a while?

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

If ever there was a crowd for meaningless sensationalism, the Source would be it. Goblins players have no idea whether they can even run the new cards- guide is anti-synergistic with the waste/port mana denial package and instigator is still worse than lackey. After M10 made fanatic suboptimal, Goblins is still hurting and red really has nothing like the blue counterspell suite to make it play comparably to Merfolk. I very strongly doubt they'll be any more alike after Zendikar.

We also don't know if Merfolk may get something more exciting than the counterspell guy, who might even end up being better than everyone swears. I seem to remember widespread denouncement of Sovereign as unplayable- then he became an automatic 4-of for the most explosive build Merfolk has to offer. The logical thing to do would be to just wait and see, but that just sounds ridiculous after all this doom-and-gloom speak.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

just making sure, we roll over and die to elves dont we?

this saddens me as i hate having auto-lose matchups

[chokin]

just making sure, we roll over and die to elves dont we?

this saddens me as i hate having auto-lose matchups

Depends on which Elf match. Hibernation at EoT resets the board and forces discard. Propaganda is kinda useless because of Priest and Archdruid however.