[Unlocking Legacy] The EPIC Control

[Bryant Cook]

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15263.html) is Adam Barnello's article on the new deck The EPIC Control.

I personally enjoyed it.

[hi-val]

Looks like kissing cousins with the deck I wrote about a few months ago. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15000.html) Islands + Tarmogoyfs + Shackles + good blue cards is an underrated combo in the metagame right now.

[Nihil Credo]

Looks like kissing cousins with the deck I wrote about a few months ago. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15000.html) Islands + Tarmogoyfs + Shackles + good blue cards is an underrated combo in the metagame right now.
Hey, this isn't the CaNGD :wink:- no need to go and exhume every similar deck ever made.



Wonderful article - I never got bored, which is something I rarely say for a deck review. The deck itself doesn't quite excite me, though... it's sure better against Blood Moon/B2B effects, but so is Zvi's Worlds list.

Since you've already told us that it's worse against Landstill and not better against Goblins (ouch...), can you preview for us what matchups it does improve? At a glance, I guess Thresh moves from 'favourable' to 'very favourable', and Pikula or Suicide Black become much easier - though the improved CounterTop engine itself is probably responsible for a good chunk of that.

[Nightmare]

I'll write more on that in both the next installment, as well as my CANG Thread, which I will be posting in the next day or two. I didn't want to steal any article thunder by posting the list early, but I will post it soon.

Also, Landstill is actually a pretty good matchup for the deck, especially if you run Decree in the board.

[Di]

Since you've already told us that it's worse against Landstill and not better against Goblins (ouch...), can you preview for us what matchups it does improve? At a glance, I guess Thresh moves from 'favourable' to 'very favourable', and Pikula or Suicide Black become much easier - though the improved CounterTop engine itself is probably responsible for a good chunk of that.


You may have misunderstood him regarding Landstill, because it is a favorable matchup regarding control mirrors. When we designed this deck, Landstill was in mind as the DTB as it claims the high horse in Syracuse, so we crafted it to specifically fight control decks. Decree just isn't good enough for the maindeck though.

But yeah, Goblins is unfortunately tougher, which is odd, given how much removal and disruption we have. That said, I don't entirely agree that it really is that tough. TEC has a much more stable manabase than Landstill, as well as Tarmogoyf, WoG, StP, Explosives, and Shackles. That's more control than a typical Landstill build. That also doesn't even count the sideboard, but that is ever-changing, so.

[Aggro_zombies]

Awesome, I've actually been working on a deck like this as well. In fact, our lists are identical in outlook and very similar in card choices, except I used Intuition and a toolbox and Garruk instead of Jace.

One thing, though: you run 24 zero casting cost spells. Has that ever been a bother for you with Counterbalance?

[TeenieBopper]

As the only person in Syracuse who has any idea what they're doing when it comes to Goblins, I've been playing this match-up more than anything else. Goblins isn't anywhere close to an autoloss. Tarmagoyf can go suck a dick. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I think I'd rather play against Landstill than this deck.

[cheddercaveman]

Here's my biggest problem with the deck as I see it, no mishra's factories. In my opinion you can't have standstills in a deck and no manlands. Just doesnt make sense to run a standstill out there that you can't take advantage of because they have to play something. I'm sure a lot of the time it doesnt really make a difference because they will play something as soon as they can and break it so we dont' build up more. Regardless, I think Factories are a must.

Also, Jace? Really? Anyone want to speak on how they feel about this guy? I don't think that its good enough myself I guess. It does pitch to FoW and I imagine its decent in a control matchup, but still. Mirror this with Hoofprints, is this just better because you get a beefy 4/4 to block with? Otherwise I'd almost always say that Sacred Mesa seems better, but maybe not, I dunno, haven't tested the card in anything.

[Nightmare]

Here's my biggest problem with the deck as I see it, no mishra's factories. In my opinion you can't have standstills in a deck and no manlands. Just doesnt make sense to run a standstill out there that you can't take advantage of because they have to play something. I'm sure a lot of the time it doesnt really make a difference because they will play something as soon as they can and break it so we dont' build up more. Regardless, I think Factories are a must.

Also, Jace? Really? Anyone want to speak on how they feel about this guy? I don't think that its good enough myself I guess. It does pitch to FoW and I imagine its decent in a control matchup, but still. Mirror this with Hoofprints, is this just better because you get a beefy 4/4 to block with? Otherwise I'd almost always say that Sacred Mesa seems better, but maybe not, I dunno, haven't tested the card in anything.
As I said in the article, cutting Factory was specifically the reason we developed this deck. I also addressed the fact that the role of Standstill changes in this deck from dropping it blindly on turn 2, into dropping it over a threat on turn 4. Either way, it's still a friggin beating on any non-landstill deck. They MUST break it to win.

Jace is insanely good.

[Arsenal]

Jace always seemed to be on the cusp of being inserted in some Legacy control deck. On paper, he looks nice. Good synergy w/ your primary win condition, and acts as a secondary win all by himself.

[hi-val]

Hey, this isn't the CaNGD :wink:- no need to go and exhume every similar deck ever made.



I'm not digging this thing out of the chthonian depths, I wrote about it two months ago! That's not exhumed by any stretch. I am merely pointing out in the most honorific and polite way possible that great minds think similarly. You'll see in my article that I visited planeswalkers as well.

I've got to wonder whether you can cut a Swords for a 3rd Shackles. The reasoning for this is that I'm finding in tournament results that Goblins is waning. We aren't really seeing any other decks that require creatures to be answered on the first or second turn either. With that in mind, I'm curious if you can just ride the storm a little and then Shackles them. Against Aggro decks, unanswered Shackles is like a 2-for-0 all the time. Neat!

[TeenieBopper]

As I said in the article, cutting Factory was specifically the reason we developed this deck. I also addressed the fact that the role of Standstill changes in this deck from dropping it blindly on turn 2, into dropping it over a threat on turn 4. Either way, it's still a friggin beating on any non-landstill deck. They MUST break it to win.

Yeah, and you've also said that you design decks to beat landstill, so explain that contradiction to me. Four dead cards game one in the control mirror=not good.

The reason Landstill can abuse Standstill because it doesn't have to play spells to win, while every other deck does. But you know that already. Let's see if some fancy magic terminology can show you why Standstill is awful in this deck: it's symetrical. The key to making symetrical cards good is to make them asymetrical. You don't. You MUST break it to win too. Any time you have Standstill in your hand, without a threat in play, it's a blank card. An opening hand of Island, Trop, Tundra, EE, Wrath, Brainstorm, Standstill, might as well be a mulligan.

[Nightmare]

Yeah, and you've also said that you design decks to beat landstill, so explain that contradiction to me. Four dead cards game one in the control mirror=not good.When did I say that? Shit, every deck I've built in the last year has scooped to Landstill, save this one and maybe Breakfast.

I know why Standstill is good. I know why when it's bad, it's bad. Give me a better option that isn't Thirst for Knowledge, and we'll talk.

Btw, I'm still planning to test Thirst.

[frogboy]

er, if you play Standstill and the other guy refuses to break it, don't you end up in a situation involving you both having a dozen lands in play except that all of your spells are better and now you have mana to cast them? Especially because you can just Brainstorm on their end step and make them discard?

[zulander]

er, if you play Standstill and the other guy refuses to break it, don't you end up in a situation involving you both having a dozen lands in play except that all of your spells are better and now you have mana to cast them? Especially because you can just Brainstorm on their end step and make them discard?
No, because he said he'd play a standstill after playing a threat. Although it would be funny if he went turn 2 goyf, turn 3 standstill and the opponent in response plays StP on his goyf lol. Talk about a draw go game.

[etrigan]

Except your win conditions are not mana powered, but time powered. Breaking Standstill and dropping Jace does nothing, and dropping Hoofprints only works if you have multiple Brainstorms to accompany it.

Personally, I'd try to fit in 1x Decree of Justice maindeck.

[TeenieBopper]

When did I say that? Shit, every deck I've built in the last year has scooped to Landstill, save this one and maybe Breakfast.

I know why Standstill is good. I know why when it's bad, it's bad. Give me a better option that isn't Thirst for Knowledge, and we'll talk.

Btw, I'm still planning to test Thirst.

Fact or Fiction, Deep Analysis, Ancestral Visions, Inspiration, Meditate, Opportunity, Tidings. Basically anything that isn't Standstill. Shit, splash red and play Browbeat, because it's never going to be worse than Standstill.


er, if you play Standstill and the other guy refuses to break it, don't you end up in a situation involving you both having a dozen lands in play except that all of your spells are better and now you have mana to cast them? Especially because you can just Brainstorm on their end step and make them discard?

You know, even if my opponent is playing Wrath, EE, Shackles, and Goyf, I'd love to start the game with 10 lands in play. I think I'd be fine.

[Bardo]

The deck didn't really "wow" me but I otherwise really enjoyed this article. Good flow, humor, tone. Solid, enjoyable read. Well done. :)

[Di]

One thing, though: you run 24 zero casting cost spells. Has that ever been a bother for you with Counterbalance?

Engineered Explosives is 0cc, as well as lands. I'm not sure how anyone could ever argue about 0cc with Counterbalance, given any deck running the card has more 0cc outlets than any other slot.