[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[ZZZ]

I'm going to test the post board Merfolk match a bit this week. I'll try to let you guys know what I have found out. Although if I have to board in 11 cards (3 Jitte, 4 Plague and 4 Choke), I'm not sure what should come out...

I'm expecting a decent amount of Goblins in the tournament so I think I'm keeping my Plagues in the board. I definitely won't replace them with spot removal like Smother or Edict. If they get cut, it will be for Deed.

[Unknown2]

I would definitely keep plagues in the sideboard, as I expect to see a lot of merfolk, goblins and elves showing up everywhere now. I wouldn't play 3 jitte, though, if you are going to play it, play it as a 2 of, you really never want to see it unless you have threats on the board already. Also, In my opinion, I believe Choke to not be needed so dire. Definitely not as a 4of anyway, possibly a 3 of, all things considered, it's just not that good.

If you want to do 4 choke,2 jitte, 4 plague

you can go something like

-4sinkhole (for choke as replacement)
-2 Shade (assuming you're running 4?)
-4 other cards of your choice. (usually just cutting down 4ofs by 1, really)

Make sure you keep hymn to tourach and thoughtseizes against blue though, never side them out.

[jazzykat]

On a slightly different note, has anyone tried Brg

The red for lightning bolt, chain lightning (or PoP?) and potentially terminate (instead of snuff out?).
The green for Tarmogoyf.

You can cut the MD seals and shades for the burn.

You expose your manabase more (as with the white splash for Vindicate which was bananas but frustrating to cast at times).

[Unknown2]

no, it's not worth it, I've tried the red splash along with the white splash and becomes the same trouble as TA, it's just too vulnerable to wasteland, which is a very bad thing, hell I only go for bayou when i am going to play tarmo. Playing 3 colours also makes dark ritual less awesome.

Keeping it 2 colours is good enough.

[CaptShetz]

Engineered Plague seems bad when the tribal strategies can just run lords to counteract your plagues.

Meanwhile Pernicious Deed wipes their entire board.

But, when Plague can come down early thanks to Dark Ritual, and your discard suite can hopefully nab the lords, your clock becomes much better than the tribal deck's. It also allows Jitte to come in from the board and just be ridiculous.

I also think Seal of Primordium helps us more than Krosan Grip, unless Scepter Chant becomes a huge problem... but even then, if you land Seal before they land Scepter, you are in good shape...

[Esper3k]

I've never faced off against Scepter Chant, but it seems like we'd have a fairly decent time disrupting it? As you said, if we land a Seal (or Deed for those of us playing it) first, they're in trouble. Also, between all the discard we run, we have a pretty good chance of hitting one of their two pieces before they can get online with it too.

[Unknown2]

yeah, my experience against decks such as mighty quinn, with the scepter swuite are very much in our favour, so it's nothing to worry about.

[luckymartyr]

What do people think of Nyxathid in this deck over shade?

[Unknown2]

definitely not, shade is very good and you're able to control it whereas nyx is dependent on your opponent, of which you have no real control on.

[Esper3k]

What do people think of Nyxathid in this deck over shade?

Yeah, I think the Nyxathid is a really interesting creature, but I don't think Eva Green is the deck for it. I'd be curious to see it in a deck with more discard like DeadGuy Ale, where you have your Thoughtseize, Hymn, Gerrard's Verdicts and even Tidehollow Scullers to constantly keep your opponent's hand down.

In Eva Green, since we run more of a mix of land destruction + discard, I don't think Nyxathid is the way to go. Also, for me, a huge selling point of the Shade is that it costs 2. That makes it so much easier to cast with other things off of a Dark Ritual (T1: Ritual, Thoughtseize, Shade or T2: Ritual, Hymn/Sinkhole, Shade). Nyxathid eats all the Dark Ritual mana himself and he's terrible as a T1 drop off a Ritual.

[Slayer001]

I'm going to test the post board Merfolk match a bit this week. I'll try to let you guys know what I have found out. Although if I have to board in 11 cards (3 Jitte, 4 Plague and 4 Choke), I'm not sure what should come out...

I'm expecting a decent amount of Goblins in the tournament so I think I'm keeping my Plagues in the board. I definitely won't replace them with spot removal like Smother or Edict. If they get cut, it will be for Deed.

I'm going to thesame tourney if its the one in mol that is ^^
let's finnish 1st and 2nd :tongue:

dunno for my SB yet, will decide it on the morning before I leave

@scepter chant: I came across it in a quinn deck, very hard that matchup with all the removal and moat and board sweepers

[Unknown2]

I play mighty quinn like its combo, use your disruption and LD as soon as possible and throw down a huge tarmo or tombstalker and race before they can set up

[Slayer001]

they have so many removal or they must be stuck at 1 land orim's chant with kicker pretty much nails you very hard. And after that their removal comes in the form of StP, O-ring, wrath of god, Moat, ...

this matchup is not easy is favorable for mighty quinn

[ZZZ]

I'm going to thesame tourney if its the one in mol that is ^^
let's finnish 1st and 2nd :tongue:


It's the same tourney. We'll split in the finals then :cool: .

It seems that in my meta, there is not much need anymore for graveyard hate. Ichorid does not see a lot of play anymore and Loam decks are also on the decline. Therefore I was thinking of cutting my crypts from the side. But I'm not sure what to replace them with. I thought about Deed but my SB is already focused on aggro matchups (with Plague and Jitte) although the meta seems to be shifting towards Aggro more than Control or Combo.
Another possibility is fitting in some Diabolic Edicts. They can come in against all decks that run Confidant or Tombstalker and against the occasional Progenitus combo deck.
I'm not sure though so any advice would be welcome.

I've tested the Merfolk matchup a bit the last couple of days and I'm not really liking it. Even after boarding in all the hate out of my board (4 Plague, 4 Choke and 3 Jitte), it's still a difficult matchup I think. Plague is not always very effective because they play 8 lords. Jitte is very good if you get it online in time but often that's not the case. And the same goes for Choke; it's good if they haven't had the chance to develop their board and if they don't have a Vial but sometimes it's just too slow.
Nevertheless I think all these cards should come in after game 1. Try to get a hand with a fast Plague, a fast Choke or a fast Tombstalker (watch out for their bounce though). I think this match is all about early tempo so if your hand is not one with some decent early plays, take the mulligan.

[CaptShetz]

In th standard list (first page), I'd go -4 Sinkhole, -4 Snuff Out, -3 Seal, +4 Plague, +4 Choke, +3 Jitte.

I've been less and less impressed with Sinkhole. It just seems so situational.

I'm also not a big fan of Snuff Out, but "free" removal is free removal. I just wish it was better. Snuff Out sucks vs Merfolk since you lose the 4 life even if its countered, and you can't really play it for "free" when they have 8 Daze effects. Vs Goblins it is also bad, since they put so much early pressure on your life total (although it is hot vs t1 Lackey).

Plague sometimes isn't enough, thanks to lords. Also, it is hard to land 2, since they run countermagic (not like vs Goblins, but they have Krosan Grip/Thoughtseize). Anyway, I think Pernicious Deed is the better call. It destroys their board, kills aether vial and can't be dazed by Cursecatcher (well, neither can plague, but still).

I've found Hypnotic Specter to be incredibly important in this MU. Soooo good.

[Esper3k]

For anyone watching the GP Chicago results, our girl is in the Top 4 :)

[Esper3k]

So it looks like our girl went down in the Top 4 :(

Interesting modifications to the deck, I'm curious to hear what people think.

Pretty much it was:

-2 Snuff Out
-3 Seal of Primordium
-2 Tombstalker

+1 Bayou
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Duress
+2 Dark Confidant

in the maindeck.

The sideboard was:

1 Choke
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dodecapod
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Seal of Primordium

Looking at it, I think it becomes more succeptible to Counterbalance/Top (especially game 1 when you're not maindecking the Seals). Dropping 2 Stalkers for 2 Confidants also makes you more succeptible to CB/Top as well.

The +2 Duress is interesting because it gives you more of a T1 chance to rip out CB, but overall I'm not really sold on the maindeck changes entirely, especially dropping the 2 Stalkers for the 2 Confidants.

As for the SB, I'm not really sure what to think of it. I guess Edict is in there for fighting Mongooses and black decks? Dodecapod in case blue decks Divert your discard back at you? It's only a 1 of though, so I'm not sure how often that would really matter. Fewer Jittes also means the matchup against burn decks gets a lot worse.

Just my thoughts.

[Skeggi]

The other girl took fifth place: clicky (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23977).

This one has a white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate. Pretty cool.

Pretty awesome that Eva Green had 2 top 8's at the GP.

[Ziilot]

The other girl took fifth place: clicky (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23977).

This one has a white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate. Pretty cool.

Pretty awesome that Eva Green had 2 top 8's at the GP.

I wonder why he played mesmeric fiend over tidehollow sculler :O. Well obv because of manacost but isn't five white manasources enough?

[Skeggi]

I wonder why he played mesmeric fiend over tidehollow sculler :O. Well obv because of manacost but isn't five white manasources enough?

I guess not. This way he can be cast within a Dark Ritual. Also, immune to Krosan Grips :wink:.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about the list is that he played Dark Confidant and Tombstalkers in the same list, and didn't get punished for it.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I thought Mesmeric over Sculler was also an interesting choice (I think Sculler is better myself). Mesmeric can also be more easily cast under a moon though.

I generally don't like playing Confidant + Stalker itself, but he at least was playing Tops to help keep from taking that huge life loss hit.

That being said, I don't like Tops in decks like Eva Green just because I feel the loss of speed is just too much.

[Skeggi]

Yeah, this list seems more GWB Rockish anyway.

[overseer1234]

Yeah, this list seems more GWB Rockish anyway.

Indeed, looks more like a Bwg Deadguy Variant...

[rancOr_]

Split finals (Mol -57 players )with following decklist:
6 swamp
3 bayou
4 b-mire
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
4 tombstalker
4 goyf
4 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
2 reanimate(awesome card)
2 putrefy
SB:
4x choke
4x leyline
4x E. plague
2x diabolic edict
1x Umezawa's Jitte(should be2instead of 4th choke)

[bdevenom]

Tourney Report from GP Chicago

So, I took took the original list of Eva Green to Chicago minus 1 swamp add 1 bayou. I'll just give a quick recount of the rounds for people to look at. In the end I went 5 and 4.

Round 1 vs. Charbelcher/Warrens combo- loss

Not one of the decks I hoped to see :(. He won the dice roll and combo'd turn one, so there was nothing I could do. Game 2 I side in engineered plagues and hope to hit him with some discard on my turn 1. I mulled to 4 looking for discard and did not get it so I played out a delta trying to bluff daze or stifle etc. He just combo'd turn 1 again and I lost.

Round 2 vs. The Might Quinn- win

Beat me game 1 with painter/grindstone. I had a seal out but had to use it the turn before to blow up sceptor/chant. Game 2 and 3 I had Jitte sided in and I was able to run enough disruption to swing with stalker and hyppie for the win both games and kill painter with Jitte when it came out.

Round 3 vs. Ichorid- win

Beat me game 1 turn 2. Not much I could do. Sided in Leyline and plague game 2 and 3. Game 2 resolved 2 leylines and 2 plagues naming horror and illusion, which ended in a win. Game 3 I mulled to 3 to get leyline and he did not get chain of vapor out so I won that game as well.

Round 4 vs. Burn- loss

Not much I could do here. Lost game 1 and sided in Jitte game 2 and 3. Got Jitte online game 2 and won, did not see it game three and Lost.

Round 5 vs. Black thresh variant thingy- win

Game one I burned a bunch of his land and made him discard 4 cards and swung with 2 goyfs for the win. Game 2 was even better, turn 2 choke and stalker/goyf beat down for a quick 2-0 win. The games went so fast I never really figured out all the cards in his deck so it is possible it was a homebrew of sorts.

Round 6 vs. Dead guy- loss

Round 1 I got a lot of discard and early creatures to beat his removal and swung a couple times with 2 goyfs to win. Games 2 and 3 he saw much more removal and land destruction with screwed me pretty hard. I was not able to keep any creatures out and lost to stalker.

Round 7 vs. Countersliver- win

This was my easiest matchup all day. Game 1 I burned 2 of his lands and got a fast goyf/stalker on the board for the easy win. Game 2 was even better, I burned 3 lands and had a turn 1 plague naming sliver. At the end of the game I had double goyf at 5/6 and he had no lands, no creatures, and a top out.

Round 8 vs. Ad nos combo - win

I did not play a single spell in three games this round. He won the dice roll and combo'd turn 1 for the win. Game 2 I mulled to 4 looking for discard and did not get it. He burned himself out on adnos turn 1 and I won. Game 3 he burned himself out again turn 1. This was entirely lucky for me :smile: .

Round 9 vs. Aggro Loam- loss

Normally I do well vs loam but both games 1 and 2 I did not see any of the cards I needed to even stay in the game. After sided boarding I was able to get a leyline out but got mana flooded after and lost after it got removed.


Over, all GP Chicago was a great event and bringing Eva Green was a blast. Hopefully this post spurs some ideas about how to potentially make the deck better. And I apologize if the report was a little brief :frown: .

[ZZZ]

Split finals (Mol -57 players )with following decklist


I came in 15th in the same tourney, going 4-2.

I played the following decklist:
4 Bayou
5 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
3 Seal of Primordium

SB:
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Choke
4 Tormod’s Crypt

I won against Death & Taxes, Elves-MonoGreen Beats-sort of thing, Dreadstill and UGr TempoTresh.
My losses came from UGw ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (with Natural Order / Progenitus) and Merfolk (which I still think is a very difficult matchup).

Crypts were completely useless in the side since I didn't play, nor saw any Dredge or AggroLoam; so I think I'm going to replace them but not sure with what...

[Esper3k]

Thanks for the reports and decklists, guys!

ZZZ: If you're cutting the graveyard hate, what matchups are you looking to make better?

[Slayer001]

I couldn't go to Mol because I catched a flew and I had to stay home :frown:
I was very dissapointed but the doctor said I better stayed in bed then to travel to Mol.

So no results from me :frown:

For the qualifiers for the big legacy tourney in Belgium I'll be there and most probably with Eva Green

gz on 15th place ZZZ

[ZZZ]

Thanks for the reports and decklists, guys!

ZZZ: If you're cutting the graveyard hate, what matchups are you looking to make better?

I'm not sure yet; I guess these could be meta slots. If Progenitus becomes more popular, Diabolic Edict is an option. At the tourney I played there was a decent amount of combo (although I didn't play any), so Duress might also be a possibility.
I'm also not sure if Seals are absolutely necessary in my current meta in the main deck, if they move to the side, they will take the place of Crypt.
If I don't maindeck Seal, I'll probably play a list close to the one Ranc0r posted...
I'll also test Reanimate again. I've never been a big fan of the card in this deck as it seemed like a win-more card often. But Shade wasn't too impressive in this tournament so I might cut one Shade and one other card to fit in 2 Reanimates.

[Esper3k]

I'm not sure yet; I guess these could be meta slots. If Progenitus becomes more popular, Diabolic Edict is an option. At the tourney I played there was a decent amount of combo (although I didn't play any), so Duress might also be a possibility.
I'm also not sure if Seals are absolutely necessary in my current meta in the main deck, if they move to the side, they will take the place of Crypt.
If I don't maindeck Seal, I'll probably play a list close to the one Ranc0r posted...
I'll also test Reanimate again. I've never been a big fan of the card in this deck as it seemed like a win-more card often. But Shade wasn't too impressive in this tournament so I might cut one Shade and one other card to fit in 2 Reanimates.

Perish is another good way of dealing with Progenitus (since if he's in a deck like Elf Survival, they'll have many other creatures to sacrifice to Edict).

I'm often back and forth on Shades. Against burn, they're often dead. Late game though, they can be a real beating, plus give you a really nice outlet to spend your extra mana/late game Dark Rituals on.

Maindeck Seal has been great for me, but the decks I play against tend to have many artifacts, so I've even taken to putting Pernicious Deed in the board over Engineered Plagues.

[rancOr_]

Play reanimate 2x main if u can,its very strong.
Its good all around,and I made some fun plays like reanimating Wickerbough Elder(kill his survival)/reanimating Masticore. I also reanimated my own tombstalker after discarding it and vs MUC reanimate his Morphling.
I dont think Seal of Primordium is the best choice anymore MB.
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh-cb like decks should alrdy be in your adantage. Putrefy has done pretty nice for me aswell,as I prefer it over smother/diabolic edict and u can still use it for shackles,dreadnought etc.

[ZZZ]

I'm not saying I'm going to cut Shade; he can definitely be fantastic. I just think 4 might be one too much as he is on his best in the mid to late game.

@Rancor; I'm going to try Reanimate again. I used to play a SuiBlack list before I switched to Eva. It was more or less Eva Green without the green and I did not like the Reanimates in that deck but then again I didn't play Goyf.
In Mol there were a lot of Goblins (and some other Tribal decks) and some combo decks; it seems to me that Reanimate isn't great against these decks (your targets will probably be your own creatures), also not against Dreadstill. Did you play against any of these decks and do you board out Reanimate then?

@Esper3k Perish seems a good choice but the decks I saw that ran the Progenitus combo were all ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks so I think Edict might be better because Perish kills our Goyf as well. It's meta dependant of course...

[Esper3k]

ZZZ: I agree that it really depends on what you're facing with Progenitus. If he's the only creature out on their side, Edict is better (and a generally more useful card). I just suggested Perish because if Progenitus is around, you HAVE to get rid of him otherwise you're dead (most of the time).

[Esper3k]

Hehe another alternative to Perish would be Virtue's Ruin (destroy all white creatures) :)

Very specific for hitting Progenitus, but then at least you won't be hitting your own Goyfs with it. (I think Perish is probably better though since if your opponent has multiple creatures out with Progentius, they're probably going to be green anyways).

[humppa]

I missed any discussion about the decklist from GP Chicago, primary about:
-2 Tombstalker
+2 Confidant

Usually I don't want to see more then 2 Tombstalkers in one game. And have 2 in the first 7 cards is a hell. So this step seems interesting.

Second question - in your current meta, what is your target for Reanimate? In last games my graveyard was the only interesting source of targets :/ in this way, Unearth could be better? Or mayba Confidant? :-)

[Slayer001]

I played eva greens list that's on firsdt page today and ended up 2-5-0 on a 69 player tournament. Ended 48th with that but tit didn't went that good

Had some bad matchups like burn and countertop, but some bad magic luck also, mana screwed or flooded at wrong moments

first match against welder survival:

He won first game with beating for the win wiith anger in the grave and by a very stupid mistake by me, but that was till eary on the morning.
2nd game I raped him with a goyf and tombstalker
third game he won also with welding in triskalevus for a mox diamond, and he had a first turn survival of the fittest, that wasn't good either and didn't saw any seals so that was the first loss
0-1-0

2nd game against: TES with Ad Nauseum

First game sinkhole, thoughtseize and hymn hurt him alot, and goyf beated for the win. didn't know what he was playing so didn't know what to side in so Ijust started the 2nd gam and it wnet almost exactly thesame as first game. He told me afterwards it was combo because I saw so little of his deck.
1-1-0

3th game against burn with ank of mishra

he won the dice roll and played first, started off with 2 chrome moxes imprinted with red stuff and a Ankh of Mishra, that hurt alot. he burned me down and my own fetches didn't helped much he shrapnel blaset for the win. 2nd game I won the race with a hippie from a first turn dark ritual and a goyf. Before he could burn down my hippie it alrdy raped his hand. Last game we went up quite even but then I had to fetch a bayou to destroy his Ankh and that put me to 4 life and then he topdecked a shrapnel blast for the win.
I sided in some 3 jittes for 3 sinkholes for lifegain but they were just to slow
1-2-0

4th game: BWG rock

first game I was fast enough and didn't see vindicates or pernicious deeds and could keep his mana low enough. 2nd and 3th game I saw those vindicates and pernicious deeds and lost those primarely by those 2. third game vindicate on tombstalker after he played one himself. then I could come back with a goyf ad hippie: deed on 3 and byebye me.
1-3-0

5th game: some white weenie angel stompy stuff

first game mulligan to 5 didn't helped much and lost that game because he beated me to death with isamaru and exalted angel with some carddraw equiped thing. 2nd game more of thesame, didn't saw my fliers.
1-4-0

6th game: elf something

first game he couldn't win the creature race, he kep resisting through a wellwisher but the damge got him in the end. 2nd game he had to mull to 4 so thats pretty much gg for me because I had a hymn to tourach in start hand.
2-4-0

7th an last game: countertop standstill

first game, he had countertop active couldn't get any spells through and lost through a beating factory and a dreadnought in the end. 2nd game I won because of my fast clock and he had to let 2 hippies through, he could stp one but i had anotyher up my sleeve, they were both brought in by a dark ritual :P, good luck on my side there. I had choke up next and he could only sit and watch. 3the game went exactly as first after he countered my choke. So that conceided this tournament for me.
2-5-0

I just played all rounds because players who fisnished all rounds got a free booster, wich I got a bunch of crap from =P

As soon as I know top8 I will post it, I was tired so didn't stay to watch.

[Slayer001]

Top 8 from last post can be found here

http://www.belgianlegacycup.be/hasselt_T8.html

[Occam]

What does everyone think about Putrid Leech (perhaps in the hyppie or gouger spot) and maelstrom pulse (for the decks running extra removal besides snuff out) in Eva Green?

Putrid Leech (tentative)
BG 2/2
Pay 2 life: Gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Use this ability only once a turn.

Maelstrom Pulse
1BG Sorcery
Destroy target non-land card and all other permanents with the same name

[AnwarA101]

What does everyone think about Putrid Leech (perhaps in the hyppie or gouger spot) and maelstrom pulse (for the decks running extra removal besides snuff out) in Eva Green?

Putrid Leech (tentative)
BG 2/2
Pay 2 life: Gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Use this ability only once a turn.

Maelstrom Pulse
1BG Sorcery
Destroy target non-land card and all other permanents with the same name

I'm planning to play 3 Maelstrom Pulse in my maindeck as it provides extra removal against everything. It gives you more ways to deal with Counterbalance, Aether Vial, Tombstalker, etc.

Putrid Leech actually looks pretty bad. I wouldn't cut any of the creatures for it and I don't think adding in more creatures really works either. Why does this creature look good?

[keys]

Well it's strictly better than Flesh Reaver :)

[humppa]

I'm planning to play 3 Maelstrom Pulse in my maindeck as it provides extra removal against everything. It gives you more ways to deal with Counterbalance, Aether Vial, Tombstalker, etc.

Putrid Leech actually looks pretty bad. I wouldn't cut any of the creatures for it and I don't think adding in more creatures really works either. Why does this creature look good?
Maelstrom Pulse is sooow slow for me.
Counterbalance is not a problem for me (snuff out, tombstalker, seal, deed)
Aether Vial is not a problem for me (MD seal, SB deed)
Tombstalker is "only in my deck" in my field :-)

What I need is better draw, not more removal.

Putrid Leech seems nice, maybe replacement for Nantuko (no, I don't want to cut off hyppies!), but I am not sure...

[Mictlantecuhtli]

@ Putrid Leech
Eva Green already pays a lot of life to play its own stuff (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Fetchlands) - that's easily 6 to 10 damage per game, which makes me feel not exactly excited about sticking two more damage up my own arse every time i want to make Leech bigger. Including Leech will likely demand taking out a number of Thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs from the deck, and i'm not sure i want to do that.

@ Maelstrom Pulse
As Awar said, this answers almost anything. Seal is better at removing less stuff, so the right choice will probably depend on the metagame. Pulse seems better for a diverse or an unknown metagame.

[Esper3k]

I play the normal version, but I do like Pulse for those who have been doing the white splash for Vindicate. This allows you to at least keep most of the flexibility of Vindicate without having to further make your manabase more suceptible to Wasteland/Blood Moon.

[zulander]

I don't know if anyone's talked about this recently, but has anyone tested out sylvan library? I'm not entirely sure what you would cut for it though.

[Clark Kant]

Well, one of the biggest advantages to Vindicate is that it can blow up lands alongside Sinkhole and Wasteland to mana screw opponents.

That said, I think Pulse definately has a place in the non white splash versions. It also works great if you want to maindeck 2 Reanimate.

You effectively have 11 ways to get creatures/goyfs into your opponents yard...
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Plus, you can always reanimate your own creatures too.

I've never been 100% happy with Shade or Gouger. So Leech will get a look from me. The only two advantages of Shade/Gouger is that they work well with Ritual and neither costs you life.

I'm very eager to test out this list...

Eva Green

4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
2 putrid leech/shade/gouger/negator

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 maelstrom pulse
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

board:
4 choke
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte

The main problem with leech in a build like that is that the lifeloss might get to be too much. So Leech will probably go back to being Shade or Gouger.

[Ch@os]

XD sure Clark Kant posted the first Eva Green list with pulse.

I would kick these shitty reanimate and putrid leech.
Shade is the way to go, +1 land and 3x Shade.

Thx the thread can now be closed.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, putrid leech is probably pretty shitty and Shade is probably the best card in that slot. Just felt like trying Leech for a bit is all.

Nothing wrong with Pulse. Everyone plays creatures that need to be killed ASAP (Goyf,Stalker,Nought) these days. You won't always have a Snuff Out handy when you need one. So why play Seal/Grip when you can play something that can actually blow up all the same stuff as well as Goyfs and Tombstalkers and even Planeswalkers?

And Reanimate is definately not a shitty card. Not when you're playing a build with...

11 cards that go fantastically with Reanimate (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Pulse),
8 cards that can combo with Reanimate too (Hymn, Hippe), and
10 solid creatures of your own that are worth Reanimating when they get killed/countered/discarded.

Try it out sometime.

[Slayer001]

yea reanimate is good, I don't have them so I couldn't put them in my build where I posted results earlier from

But I'm going to test them out asap

[overseer1234]

yea reanimate is good, I don't have them so I couldn't put them in my build where I posted results earlier from

But I'm going to test them out asap

you should've told me you needed them :D (I have at least 1 I can mis :D)

Annyway, the card is the nutz, bringing back big bitches for 1 mana is allway's fun, but it's even more fun to just take your opponent's terravore, or the goyf you just thoughtseize'd...

[Lance]

I really don't understand why this deck isn't a DTB. I mean, gobos is one of those and I didn't see any good results from that deck since like 3 years...

Eva isn't widely played and it top8' quite constantly.

Anyway, last april 11th I played a Dead Eva list with swords and vindicate. Without Snuffout, I lowered the Tombstalker count to two and that allowed me to play Dark Confidant, wich is quite insane in that list.

I won't write a report, but it was a 60 + players event and I ended up second, loosing in finals to... the mirror!

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+-+Walk+%232+%40+Enjeux+Jr+-+Montreal

[Raptor]

I really don't understand why this deck isn't a DTB. I mean, gobos is one of those and I didn't see any good results from that deck since like 3 years...

Eva isn't widely played and it top8' quite constantly.

Anyway, last april 11th I played a Dead Eva list with swords and vindicate. Without Snuffout, I lowered the Tombstalker count to two and that allowed me to play Dark Confidant, wich is quite insane in that list.

I won't write a report, but it was a 60 + players event and I ended up second, loosing in finals to... the mirror!

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+-+Walk+%232+%40+Enjeux+Jr+-+Montreal

The meta of montreal isn't full of goblins, but some other metas have good amount of goblins top 8'ing.
By the way, a DTB is based on statistic.

"A Deck to Beat is a deck which has at least 6.25% placements over the total Top 8 slots at 33+ person tournaments in the last month's tournaments (or the last ten tournaments, whichever is greater)."

[Esper3k]

Popularity of a deck is also a huge factor in DTB status. Makes sense to me, the more people who are playing a deck, the more likely it'll meet that 6.25% threshold, you know?

Some people just really don't like doing damage to themselves or going without countermagic/hand manipulation.

[Raptor]

Popularity of a deck is also a huge factor in DTB status. Makes sense to me, the more people who are playing a deck, the more likely it'll meet that 6.25% threshold, you know?

Some people just really don't like doing damage to themselves or going without countermagic/hand manipulation.

Yes, but if more people play the deck, it will be more "hated" :p

[overseer1234]

Alright, seems like I'm going to Bazaar Of Moxen (found out today :D), and I'm planning to play Eva Green (long day so i don't really want long drawn out game's)

I'm either going to go with the standard list (on the opening post) or with a white splash for vindicate and STP

Anny pointer's would be great so here's the list:

Eva Green

4 Tarmogoyf
3/4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker

1/0 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshare's
3 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp

board:
4 Choke
4 Leyline of the void
4 engineered plague/Pernisious deed
3 umezawa's jitte/extirpate

Ive run the reanimate in the Bg in the spot of 1 shade since shade eats to much mana and only become's a threat more in the mid game when you have more mana to spare. But you never know how it pack's out when splashing colors, so maybe that could become the 4th vindicate, or i just play my 4th shade again.

Only 3 vindicate (for now) because i don't like messing around with numbers (other than the 1 shade that could become vindicate nr 4) and 21 land is a must (and we ran only 3 seal...)

Then on to the side board:

Obviously choke and leyline are staple's that are to good to miss.

Since goblins is already a pretty good matchup i think deed might just be better against other random non tribal agro (Death&taxes) or stuff that like's to have permanents (stax, enchantress).

Jitte always seemed a bit slow and vindicate's make's the removal side pretty irrelevant (since I usually sided out seal in favor of jitte), and extirpate helps in the ichorid matchup (which even with leyline's isn't a cakewalk) and double's up as combo disruption+screw up mystical tutor's...



If all of the above doesn't make since of just seems plain bad then just say so (in a constructive way), and I'll just run the standard build.

Anny help here would be greatly appreciated.

Greets,
Robin.

[Esper3k]

I like the Standard Eva Green maindeck list a lot.

For me, I'm not a fan of Swords to Plowshares in Eva Green because your whole purpose is to try and disrupt someone then kill them before they can recover. While Swordsing a blocker like a Goyf can let you in, it also gives them potentially a bunch of life which can lead them to extra turns of surviving.

Snuff Out, because it costs no mana and almost as importantly, doesn't give them life, is generally better in the deck. The only reason I could see running Swords is for Dark Confidant and Tombstalkers. Confidants you can oftentimes outrace as they're still reeling from your disruption. Opposing Tombstalkers are admittedly problematic, but sometimes your Shades can even bust through.

Reanimate I don't have a huge opinion on. I don't think running a 1 of would hurt you. I do like the Shades a lot because they give you another 2 drop spell you can play off of a T1: Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, 2 drop spell.

In general, I'm not really a fan of the white splash because for dealing with Counterbalance and problematic Enchantments or Artifacts, Seal is better since you can get it down faster. It itself being an enchantment is also good for growing your own Goyfs if you need it.

Also, the white splash really opens you up for being sigificantly more succeptible to just losing under a Moon effect.

Onto the sideboard:

I've liked the standard sideboard as well except for the Plagues. In my experience these days, since I agree we already have a pretty good matchup against Goblins, Plague isn't as necessary. Merfolk and Elves play 8 lords, so Plague doesn't really hurt them there either. I have an unnatural love affair with Pernicious Deed, so that's what I run in the EP slot. Decks that run a lot of artifacts or low cost permanents (I love Deeding away a Dreadnaught) can just be hosed by it. Also particularly brutal if you run across Affinity.

I like Jittes over Extirpates. If you're going to use Extirpates, replace Leylines with them. Jitte gives you valuable removal against black creatures post-board, as well as kills a lot of creature decks dead (on top of your maindeck removal).

For me, when I'm sideboarding, I oftentimes board out Sinkholes or a 2/2 split of Tombstalker/Shade since oftentimes people are going to be boarding in graveyard hate against you since you run both Goyf and Tombstalker.

[URABAHN]

Esper, if someone brings in graveyard hate to deal with your Tombstalkers and Goyfs, you should laugh at them. Tombstalker and Shade are your win conditions and I don't see any good reason to board them out even in the face of Crypt, Leyline, or Relic of Progenitus.

[Clark Kant]

Overseer,

I'm going to echo the other people who said that Snuff Out is probably superior to StP.

And after playing around with Pulse for a bit, I'm no longer as big a fan of the white splash as I once was.

Yes Vindicate is still absolutely nuts the games that you win off of land destruction (hymn some lands, wasteland, sinkhole, vindicate) but Pulse is flexible enough that you'll always find a target. But were I to play the white splash, I would absolutely look into allocating some slots to Doran, or instead consider allocating a few slots to Qasali Pridemage.

And if you do go without the white splash, I do recommend trying out this build...



4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Reanimate

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Choke
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Umezawa's Jitte


I guess Chains is controversial but I've had a lot of great plays with it stopping basically the core card draw engine of every control and aggro control deck out there (Standstill, Brainstorm, Ponder, Predict, Ancestral Visions) and basically every already insanely popular card that's destined to be even more prevalent should Lorescale Coatl prove worthwhile.

[overseer1234]

Nice build (I would change some minor numbers, like -1 reanimate +1 shade)
But it looks solid.

Now I just hope to find 3 pulse's in time :)


I guess Chains is controversial but I've had a lot of great plays with it stopping basically the core card draw engine of every control and aggro control deck out there (Standstill, Brainstorm, Ponder, Predict, Ancestral Visions) and basically every already insanely popular card that's destined to be even more prevalent should Lorescale Coatl prove worthwhile.
Doesn't choke stop all those things already? Seems a bit overkill since we like blue decks to tap their islands for choke... (lets not even talk about the price tag of chains...) So I guess I'm running deed in that slot.

Also I still have my doubts about jitte in the board...

Ok it's sweet against agro, (really shine's against burn IF IT'S ACTIVE IN TIME), but even then those matchup's aren't really that great (even with jitte), so what about kicking jitte for extirpate to seriously improve the ichorid matchup +pate double's up as combo disruption...

[Esper3k]

Jitte is also good for dealing with those black creatures like Dark Confidants or giving your own Tombstalkers the edge when fighting other Tombstalkers.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, you're right about Chains.

I was playing it mostly to get some use out of my playset. It's been solid, but honestly, Choke does the same thing and more.

I see a TON of blue based decks though. So I'm actually going to play Tsunami in the slot of Chains.

Yes, that's right, 4 Choke, and 3 Tsunami in the sideboard to make sure that some bomb manages to resolve. Tsunami and Choke actually have a lot of synergy together, to make certain that your opponent can't recover or play around the other card.

If you're willing to devote 7 slots to Ichorid (4 Leyline and 3 Extripate), even though Ichorid barely sees any play, then I think it makes more sense to devote 7 slots to hating on all manner of blue based decks that make up a good 70% of the field.

P.S: One of the best things about Tsunami, its 4cc ensures that it resolves though Counterbalance + Top and steal games that you otherwise had no shot of winning. I honestly think that if more players played the build I just posted, but with 4 Choke + 3 Tsunami in the board, this deck would be back to the DTB list in no time, atleast at places where blue makes up a big chunk of the field.

P.P.S: I agree with you on Jitte. It's good, but rarely feels broken the way that Leyline, Choke and Tsunami feel against their respective matchups. I just wanted to devote 3-4 slots to very fast aggressive decks. Jitte doesn't really fit, but I just can't think of a better alternative. I'm open to suggestions. I'm not looking for combo hate, I'm looking for fast aggro hate (Zoo, RG Sligh, Burn and such).

[sauce]

i ran a sb of 2 choke and 1 tsunami and it was more than enough vs control.
as long as you pack 4 vindicate and 4 deed main that is :)

[Slayer001]

Against burn jitte helped me quite alot, giving life burn doesn't like. agaisnt fast aggro we have the bigger creatures + snuffout and if we rape their hand at start they wont have a chance. Goblins are faster then those you mention except for burn and goyf sligh. I board in 3 jittes against those decks, its all we can do.
Maybe infest can help or contagion but I doubt it, going to test tsunami though
blue decks are able to counter it if they are not tapped out by choke, so you need to get a choke down first that needs to reslove and a tsunami afterwards. But need to playtest some to see how it goes

I don't play white so no vindicates

[coraz86]

P.P.S: I agree with you on Jitte. It's good, but rarely feels broken the way that Leyline, Choke and Tsunami feel against their respective matchups. I just wanted to devote 3-4 slots to very fast aggressive decks. Jitte doesn't really fit, but I just can't think of a better alternative. I'm open to suggestions. I'm not looking for combo hate, I'm looking for fast aggro hate (Zoo, RG Sligh, Burn and such).

I've always really liked Jitte in Eva Green; that little bit of life gain and board control is invaluable against stupid red decks (Goblins, burn, GoyfSligh), plus it eats annoying little guys like Warchief (as well as aforementioned irritances like Bob). I never thought to use Reanimate, so I'm not going to abjectly pee in your cornflakes there, but if I were running your build, that's what I'd drop for the Jittes.

Also, I'd personally cut the Urborg. I keep getting fucked over when I run it in Legacy; I always seem to draw it against decks running EE, Deed, Tombstalker, etc. and instead of them having to work to control me, I just have to bend over and hope they don't tear me. That could be my luck, though, which isn't always the best.

On a more positive note, I like the Maelstrom Pulse. How is that working out for you?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Also, I'd personally cut the Urborg...

On a more positive note, I like the Maelstrom Pulse. How is that working out for you?

Yes, cut Urborg. There is little reason for including a card that will not always help you AND might actually help your opponent.

Maelstrom Pulse has been decent for me so far although i haven't decided if i want all three in the "Seal slots" or just 2 + a randon Jitte or something like that.

EDIT: Just to clarity, my latest configuration is 3 MD and 3 SB slots for 2xMaelstrom Pulse, 2xJitte and 2xKrosan Grip, although i might just go back to 3 Pulse MD and 3 Jitte SB.

[rancOr_]

I've played/tested Eva Green alot and made some good results with it.
About the white splash : dont do it. It makes the deck(even) less consistent and is not needed at all. Snuff out is a great tempo card and has evasion(spell snare,cb..).
So u can just play 6 swamp instead,and for the creature base u can take in that 4th shade;u wont regret it.
Then there are 3 flex slots left. Ive played 2reanimate md and those never dissatisfied me. They are very good in a random meta aswell,and can just win games by itself(loam;discard -take creatures,even against ichorid it has a purpose) As for the 3th slot id take something like Putrefy/Diabolic edict.

About the SB,id not play more then 3chokes,i played 4aswell quite a while,but 3 is the better number for it. At such a big event I'd def play engineered plaguex4 in the sideboard(merfolk being super popular,goblins,elves,fearies,ichorid),and u can even power it out T1.

[Valtrix]

Agreed on the Urborg. Although it can help you not have to use fetches, or turn a wasteland into a T2 BB, that's about all it does for you. The wasteland situation probably isn't even that useful since you'll want to destroy their land most of the time anyway.

However, it lets your opponent not lose life by not having to break fetches as well, which seems counterproductive to your plan. It also opens you up to more nonbasic hate, which sucks. Plus it can help your opponent not get color-screwed if they happen to be playing black, especially if they want to go search out for a basic.

So, on the whole it seems that Urborg adds very little to the deck's strategy to begin with, but in fact actually helps your opponent even more.

[Patrunkenphat7]

What's the right number of land for this deck? I notice a lot of people running 21. I'm rather inclined to try out 22, seeing as this deck runs 4 Wasteland.

[Esper3k]

I run the standard version and have had very little problems with 21 land. The mana curve is so low + Dark Rituals, you want to avoid being mana flooded if you can help it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Another question: Sinkhole or Mesmeric Fiend? Both are good 2 drops, but I can't decide which one I prefer. Sinkhole seems to be the classic choice for this deck, but the 5th place deck at GP Chicago apparently did well with a playset of Fiends.

[Clark Kant]

Sinkhole, no question.

Im still playing this list...

Eva Green

4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
2 putrid leech

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 maelstrom pulse
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
5 swamp

board:
4 leyline of the void
4 choke
3 infest
2 krosan grip
2 umejawe's jitte

I love it, Putrid Leech is really the best option here. Its better even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature. Test it. Also without Urborgs I dislike gouger and shade.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Putrid Leech does seem good - but I have to ask myself if he's better enough to negate its disadvantages:
-Can't be cast by Dark Ritual
-Needs a bayou (or forest, yuck)
-Life Loss (not a huge issue)
-only pumpable to a 4/4, even late game

I think it is certainly better for the situations you're talking about - being able to block and battle other big guys with no mana input. However, I often find myself emptying my hand and not needing mana open middle-late game, and the shade often becomes a much more powerful finisher. A lot of it depends on what kinds of decks you see, but I think I'll stick with the shade. I really enjoy not needing the green mana in some games.

It's definitely good to debate between these guys, as I can see how some people would like the leech a lot more.

Now I'm gonna share my list, as I'm relatively new to this thread:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Snuff Out
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath

SB - depends on what tournament I'm in. Because I have white, a couple StP are nice against the mirror and Bobs. Choke, E Plague, Jitte, and Leyline of the Void are also my usuals.

I've read some of this thread and noticed that many people do not like the white splash. I personally think that splashing for Vindicate makes this deck sooo much better, as it is essentially MD removal for anything annoying, and it can ever-importantly manascrew your opponents. This deck can still run off of a couple basic swamps if it needs to. I agree that Snuff Out is better than StP in this deck, but it is also nice to pack a couple StP's in the SB. For anyone who's never playtested Vindicate against a wide variety of decks, I highly suggest you do it. I personally feel like the advantages of Vindicate highly outweigh the disadvantages of having a few more nonbasic lands - the card straight up wins games.

I've just started playing with this deck, so I may find out that I want to change some things as time goes on. I plan on playing at a couple of the Starcity Legacy 5K's later this year.

Criticism is always welcome, and I'm sure I'll receive a little for my white splash :wink:

[Esper3k]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

[Patrunkenphat7]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

Thanks for the input, ultra fast response! haha

[nyoro]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

well, vindicate also helps you better in cbtop matchup and to be able to play StP if you want. alot of white splash also run lotus petal instead of dark ritual to get some accel going or color fixing.

but T1 moon does kill, but so as to many other decks.

[Aus-Rotten]

If counterbalance is a problem then couldn't Maelstrom Pulse be used over the vindicate to keep the deck within 2 colors?

[Clark Kant]

Patrikurnup,

Not being able to cast Leech off of Ritual rarely proves to be a relevent issue. Playing Shade off of a turn one Ritual isn't exactly a back breaking play either. You would rather spend that two early black mana on Hymn or Sinkhole or that first turn Ritual to cast a Hyppe instead. I find the early game boon of Leech well worth it. As I said, its better even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

Moving on, I actually really like your list a lot. I do see the merit in those who say that the pritning of Pulse makes the white splash for vindicate unneeded but being able to mana screw your opponents by blowing up lands really is a big help.

I used to run a list almost identical to yours. The only real differences were that...

a.) the two slots you gave to nantuko shade, I gave to Doran, the Siege Tower

b.) those two cards that you gave to Duress, I gave to Reanimate.

It's definately something worth considering if your meta has a lot of creature based decks or aggro control or removal or counters.

Reanimate is one of those cards that gives you a ton of utility at an extremely low cost. It combos great with Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and many times with Hymn and Vindicate (all of which often get opponents creatures into their yard) and your opponents discard, removal and countermagic (often put your own goyf into the yard).

The Reanimate isn't that big a deal. But I really would consider replacing the Duress and Shade slots with the last Snuff Out and a different threat (Leech, Doran etc).

I do hope that you play something similar to your list at the SCG 5k tourney. I think you'll do rather well with it. Blood Moon is no where near as prevalent as people make it out to be.

[Esper3k]

well, vindicate also helps you better in cbtop matchup and to be able to play StP if you want. alot of white splash also run lotus petal instead of dark ritual to get some accel going or color fixing.

but T1 moon does kill, but so as to many other decks.

Seal is just fine against CB, especially if you get it down before CB hits.

I think playing Lotus Petal over Dark Ritual is not a good idea since you're losing that whole explosive factor that Eva Green tries to exploit. Also, without Dark Ritual, what are you trying to cast Turn 1 off a Lotus Petal that needs white?

T1 Moon can kill Eva Green, but the white splash is far far more succeptible to it than the standard decklist. Even barring the T1 Moon, a later game Moon cuts the standard decklist from fewer cards than the white splash. Worse, if you're running the white splash and you ended up cutting Snuff Out for Vindicate & STP, you no longer have any removal for a Magus. The standard deck list at least has the potential to deal with a Blood Moon with a preemptive Seal.

STP is a great card, but I think it's not a good card for Eva Green purely because of the life gain aspect. I shudder to say it, but I almost think Path to Exile might be better. When you're pushing damage on someone, that extra land may not give them the extra turn that a bunch of life will.

I agree with those who say if you really like Vindicate, just play Maelstrom Pulse and stay 2 colors at least. Yes, you can't kill a land with it, but I actually think land destruction is getting weaker and weaker in Legacy as a whole these days anyways.

[Esper3k]

For me, I do find the Nantuko Shade's BB cost to be a compelling selling factor over Putrid Leech's BG.

Oftentimes, I do find myself with a Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize and don't have Sinkhole/Hymn/Spectre, but Shade allows me to drop a very early threat on the board.

Later game, Shade is better than Leech as well, plus it gives you something to do with Dark Rituals you draw later on.

[Lance]

I'm a long time Eva player, so I tought I'd give my opinion here. I've played both Eva Green and Eva Green and white to great success in large and also smaller tourneys. Here the lists I played in both top's 8 in the larger ones (60+ players each):

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23684
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25357

Both decks are quite close imo, the white splash is:
-4 Snuff Out
-4 Sinkhole
+4 Sword to Plowshares
+4 Vindicate

No surprise here, those changes are obvious. Since I cut snuff out (high casting cost and lifeloss if played free), I could add confidant to the deck, wich is a good thing in a deck that lack draw power. And since i'm not a suicidal man, I cut 2 Tombstalker too.

Finally, I could cut a jitte since I had a better chance to see one with bob and I don't like having two legendary artifact in my startin' 7... I've choose to run 3 duress in those slots.

The two decks have their strenghs and weaknesses. The Green one has a far more stable manabase, wich is good. But the white one play the stronger spells...

Anyone who think that snuff out or sinkhole are as good as sword and vindicate in legacy are wrong in my opinion:wink: The life argument is ridiculous. When you hit each turn with a Tombstalker, a Goyf or a Nantuko shade while your opponent is in topdeck mode because of all your disruption, excuse me but 5 life or so won't make any difference! And anyone who tried the white version can tell that he won games on the back of an unanswered bob alone... But this has a price and that is a worse manabase.

That doesn't mean it's not a good deck, heck Nassif won a 1200+ tournament with a far more horrible mana base... Beside, if you play a similar version to mine, you have a good chance to duress // thoughtseize a Magus // Moon if you are on the play.

That said I love both decks, and I play both of them and will continue to do so in future's events.

PS. sorry for my english, keep in mind that's not my mother language:smile:

[Patrunkenphat7]

Patrikurnup,

Not being able to cast Leech off of Ritual rarely proves to be a relevent issue. Playing Shade off of a turn one Ritual isn't exactly a back breaking play either. You would rather spend that two early black mana on Hymn or Sinkhole or that first turn Ritual to cast a Hyppe instead. I find the early game boon of Leech well worth it. As I said, its better even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

Moving on, I actually really like your list a lot. I do see the merit in those who say that the pritning of Pulse makes the white splash for vindicate unneeded but being able to mana screw your opponents by blowing up lands really is a big help.

I used to run a list almost identical to yours. The only real differences were that...

a.) the two slots you gave to nantuko shade, I gave to Doran, the Siege Tower

b.) those two cards that you gave to Duress, I gave to Reanimate.

It's definately something worth considering if your meta has a lot of creature based decks or aggro control or removal or counters.

Reanimate is one of those cards that gives you a ton of utility at an extremely low cost. It combos great with Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and many times with Hymn and Vindicate (all of which often get opponents creatures into their yard) and your opponents discard, removal and countermagic (often put your own goyf into the yard).

The Reanimate isn't that big a deal. But I really would consider replacing the Duress and Shade slots with the last Snuff Out and a different threat (Leech, Doran etc).

I do hope that you play something similar to your list at the SCG 5k tourney. I think you'll do rather well with it. Blood Moon is no where near as prevalent as people make it out to be.

I don't have too much time to write a response right now, but I was wondering:
Has Putrid Leech worked better for you than Doran? Just curious. I still really like Shade but I'm always willing to try new ideas.

[Clark Kant]

I don't have too much time to write a response right now, but I was wondering:
Has Putrid Leech worked better for you than Doran? Just curious. I still really like Shade but I'm always willing to try new ideas.

It's hard to be sure, but yeah, I would say that I think I generally like Leech better than Doran. Doran was always good, and might be better against aggro, but generally, coming out a turn earlier, not competing with Vindicate for your turn three play, having fewer color requirements (this way, you only need to go for white when you need Vindicate assuming you still splash white), being able to apply pressure earlier, not getting slowed down by Wasteland and such all make the 2cc 4/4 (two carnophages fused onto the same card) better than the 3cc 5/5.

[coraz86]

Agreed. I really feel with Eva Green that you need the speed. It's not like playing Rock, you need to keep the pressure up to win; you don't want to be holding stuff because you can't cast it, you don't have that kind of time in a tempo deck.

[Centurion]

Yesterday I came in second in a small 13-man with Eva Green so I thought I'd write up a mini report.

My list was:
6 Swamp
4 Delta
4 Mire
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Shade

4 Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress (I only have 3 seize)
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
4 Choke
3 Leyline
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jitte

Round 1, vs. Stefan Ellsworth (Nassif Thresh)
In game one a first turn Seize reveals a goyf (which I take), a trinket mage, a sower, and some lands. I put early pressure on him with a goyf and Hyppie of my own and he can't stabilize. Game 2 my second turn Hymn gets snared, but a resolved choke slows him down with only a goyf on the field. I play a goyf of my own, delve out a stalker to make the green dudes 2/3s and race.
Board: -1 Duress, -3 Shade, +4 Choke (Should have been -4 Sinkhole)

Round 2, vs. ??? (Tempo Thresh)
Game 1 quickly comes down to him beating me with a thresh'd mongoose and me swinging back with a Hyppie, but 3/3s beat 2/2s in races. I should have chumpblocked the last turn and prayed for a topdeck but I hadn't played in a while and was sloppy, figuring I'd just move on to the next game. Game 2 he also got an early mongoose out, but my goyf with Jitte was able to get there. Game 3I think I beat down with fliers while he never got red mana for Bolt.
Sideboard: -4 Sinkhole, -2 Snuff Out, +4 Choke, +2 Jitte

Round 3, vs. Brian Rizzaro (Coatl/Exalted CTop)
This was a cool deck and a long game. He was playing Pridemage and Hierarch as well as Coatl and Cold-Eye Selkie. The Hierarch's really put a damper on the LD aspects of Eva Green and can get really annoying in multiples. The first game was LONG. He got out an early Hierarch and Balance-Top lock while I had a Hyppie and Shade. Then he played a Jitte, killed the Hyppie and we were at a standstill for a while. Eventually I played goyf, the Hierarch traded with the shade and he played a coatl. The Jitte had no counters on it, he was at 1 life and couldn't fetch, and my goyf had 5 power so if he swung for jitte counters he'd still die by one point of damage. We stared at each other for a while until I frantically topdecked a stalker, saw it sworded, and then mised a second off the top to win. At that point there was one minute left in the round so there was no game 2.

Round 4, vs. Ben??? (Goblins)
I drew, though based on previous experience with the deck I feel confident against Goblins.

Top 4: I play Stefan again from round 1. In games 1 and 3 I just put too much early pressure on for him to recover. I think I punted game 2 by playing right into a Sower I knew he had, but I was in a bad board state to begin with.

Finals: Against Brian from round 3 again, and these two games are much faster. Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep Delta, goyf, Seize, Hymn, Stalker on the play while he mulls to 6. A turn 1 seize reveals Breeding Pool, Coatl, Selkie, Pridemage, and 2 Brainstorms, so I take the Coatl. His turn one is to Waste my Bayou, but luckily I topdeck a mire then a swamp. I play out my creatures and get him to one, but he paths my stalker and plays a Selkie with Jitte along with another critter or two. I can't get through and lose. Game 2 he just overwhelms me with exalted dudes and I don't draw enough creatures.

Overall I was pretty happy with my deck's performance. Reanimates were great all night, and the Jittes in the board were very helpful when I needed them. The pulses were a last minute addition that I never actually cast. At least one game I could have won if they were the Seal of Primordiums they replaced because I was stuck on two land, but I'll need to test them out some more. I'm not sure about the pithing needles in the board, though the rest of it I'm happy with.

My main issue is that I feel the Shades are weak compared to the other creatures. I know they can be massive threats but I would much rather play mana on spells. I don't love the Leech swap because I hate to expose Bayous when I don't have to and This deck loses a lot of its own life already. Any suggestions?

[Clark Kant]

My main issue is that I feel the Shades are weak compared to the other creatures. I know they can be massive threats but I would much rather play mana on spells. I don't love the Leech swap because I hate to expose Bayous when I don't have to and This deck loses a lot of its own life already. Any suggestions?

Great report, and other than the Shades, I love your list.

I definately share your sentiments on the shades. The only time they're even decent is in the late game which is bad for a deck as aggressive as this one, otherwise, they're straight up inferior to your other threats. And even mid to late game, if you have any spells to cast, you're better off casting them than pumping Shade.

I recommend testing the Leech before ruling it out completely. As I said, its better than the alternatives even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

[Esper3k]

Just curious, what were the last 4 cards you ran in the main deck? I'm only seeing 35 spells? (you have -1 Shade, -3 Seal, -4 Snuff Out, +2 Reanimate, +2 Maelstrom Pulse different from the maindeck?)

[Centurion]

Sorry, I played 4 Snuff Out and just forgot to write it down.

I might try out the Leeches, though there have been a few games where I get perilously low on life between the Snuff Outs, Seizes, and Fetchs.

[DragoFireheart]

Maelstrom Pulse can backfire if you want to kill a Goyf of theirs and you have one yourself.

[AnwarA101]

Maelstrom Pulse can backfire if you want to kill a Goyf of theirs and you have one yourself.

That is true, but the better question is why would you cast Maelstrom Pulse in this situation?

[DragoFireheart]

That is true, but the better question is why would you cast Maelstrom Pulse in this situation?

You wouldn't, but if it were Vindicate this wouldn't be the case.

[AnwarA101]

You wouldn't, but if it were Vindicate this wouldn't be the case.

I don't think I get your point. Are you trying to say that Maelstrom Pulse is bad because it doesn't work in the one case you cited? I could name other situations where Maelstrom Pulse would be better than Vindicate, but I don't know if that would be a useful exercise. Its better to understand the difference with cards and try to see which makes more sense in the context of the overall deck.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I don't think I get your point. Are you trying to say that Maelstrom Pulse is bad because it doesn't work in the one case you cited? I could name other situations where Maelstrom Pulse would be better than Vindicate, but I don't know if that would be a useful exercise. Its better to understand the difference with cards and try to see which makes more sense in the context of the overall deck.

I actually think this is a legitimate point considering the ridiculous amount of decks that play a playset of goyfs. The scenario where your goyf is staring down another is not uncommon; its much more statistically common than your opponent possessing his own 2 goyfs and you having none.

However, I do think the most important points for this discussion are the land destruction vs. the need for white mana. Which outweighs the other? I personally feel like the LD dominates some games, and the need for white mana is really not that big of a deal. Bloodmoon effects are quite rare in viable decks, and the real worry should come from opposing wastelands. An opponent wastelanding your land is annoying, but its slowing down the mana excel of the opponent as well which is really not that horrible for this deck. The situations where wasteland completely devestates you aren't really that common.

Don't get me wrong, it sucks to have a land destroyed by wasteland, and of course there are some decks that run bloodmoon effects out there. It just seems to me like Vindicate is worth the few extra nonbasics.

(and you can run a couple StP in the SB)

[DragoFireheart]

Does someone have a link to a WGB list that utilizes Vindicate and StP?


I'm curious as to whether that list also makes use of other creautes (Doran, Leech)

[Esper3k]

Does someone have a link to a WGB list that utilizes Vindicate and StP?


I'm curious as to whether that list also makes use of other creautes (Doran, Leech)

Traditionally, most of the white splash decks don't run Doran (although I've seen some that do). Leech is pretty new, so I'm not sure you'll find many decklists with it yet.

From what I've seen, most of the time the Seals/Snuff Outs get cut for Vindicate/StP.

[DragoFireheart]

Traditionally, most of the white splash decks don't run Doran (although I've seen some that do). Leech is pretty new, so I'm not sure you'll find many decklists with it yet.


How viable do you think Doran and the Leech are?

3 mana for a 5/5 isn't shabby, and it also hoses Goblin Piledrivers.


Edit: I dun't know mana costs lol

[Esper3k]

How viable do you think Doran and the Leech are?

4 mana for a 5/5 isn't shabby, and it also hoses Goblin Piledrivers.

Doran is actually 3 mana :)

Personally, I think Doran is a great card, but I don't think he works well for Eva Green.

First of all, I'm not a big fan of the white splash myself. However, if I were to play it, I'd splash only for Vindicates. StP, while a great card, is also one that gives your opponent life, which this deck really doesn't want to do.

Anyways - more on why I don't like Doran in Eva Green:

Pros: Makes Goyfs do more damage, very efficient for his cost.
Cons: Requires white splash, unable to be played off of a Dark Ritual, can't be played until a minimum turn 3

The Green + White mana cost also means you minimally have to have a Bayou, Scrubland, + other black mana producing land. Playing the standard decklist, I sometimes even find myself lacking BB due to Wastelands, etc. I can't think that the white splash has a more consistant manabase.

The next question is: what does Doran replace? The only real thing it would seem to replace is Nantuko Shade. Shade fills a valuable role in the deck, however, providing a BB spells 9-12 that you can cast turn 1 off of a Dark Ritual (after a Thoughtseize). Also, Shade is a better play late game and also allows you to make use of those late game Dark Rituals you draw.

With the Leech, I could see it used over Shade, but again the BG cost over BB really causes me to reconsider it. It's better than Shade early game, but worse than it mid-late game. Leech will almost never be able to kill a Goyf on its own - Shade has the potential to do so, especially with a Dark Ritual pumping it.

[DragoFireheart]

Would you consider Path to Exile over swords for this deck?

[Esper3k]

Would you consider Path to Exile over swords for this deck?

I would say it's definitely something to consider. If you PtE a blocker when you have lethal on the board, that one land isn't going to matter. StPing a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker blocker can definitely give them another turn.

I also think that since the mana curve on spells is so low in Legacy, giving someone an extra basic isn't as terrible.

Of course, if they're color screwed and you get them a land for that color, it can turn out badly for you.

Definitely something to consider though.

Another thing to think about is many decks are tending to run less and less basics. Someone playing against Eva Green is likely to fetch out their basics first (to protect against Wasteland). If they're out of basics in the deck, PtE becomes amazing :)

[DragoFireheart]

I would say it's definitely something to consider. If you PtE a blocker when you have lethal on the board, that one land isn't going to matter. StPing a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker blocker can definitely give them another turn.

I also think that since the mana curve on spells is so low in Legacy, giving someone an extra basic isn't as terrible.

Of course, if they're color screwed and you get them a land for that color, it can turn out badly for you.

Definitely something to consider though.

Another thing to think about is many decks are tending to run less and less basics. Someone playing against Eva Green is likely to fetch out their basics first (to protect against Wasteland). If they're out of basics in the deck, PtE becomes amazing :)


Well, since this is a tempo deck and not a control deck, we won't care that much about extra mana if we are going for the kill.

You could argue that the Stp gives them another turn as opposed to PtE.

[Shawon]

I actually think this is a legitimate point considering the ridiculous amount of decks that play a playset of goyfs. The scenario where your goyf is staring down another is not uncommon; its much more statistically common than your opponent possessing his own 2 goyfs and you having none.

But that point becomes a little less significant when the deck also runs 4 Snuff Out to bypass Goyf staredowns. The deck also runs other creatures, so it's not unimaginable to sacrifice your Goyf to kill your opponent's FTW.


However, I do think the most important points for this discussion are the land destruction vs. the need for white mana. Which outweighs the other? I personally feel like the LD dominates some games, and the need for white mana is really not that big of a deal.


But how much more LD do you need with Eva Green? You run 4 Sinkhole and 4 Wasteland. That's more than enough. Anyway, Stifle is better LD hate than Vindicate, and in that case, TA is a better direction than Eva Green w/ Vindicate.

With the coming of Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate just seems utterly unnecessary in the deck. Maelstrom Pulse serves the most relevant purposes of Vindicate (versatile creature/artifact/enchantment kill) but doesn't require splashing another color.

[DeMarki]

Hey there, I'm building a similar deck and I wish to ask two questions which remain unanswered even though I browsed most of the replies:

1) Is there a specific reason why you are not using Dark Confidant? It's an amazing draw engine that swings for 2 and refuels your hand after turns 3-4 were it will definitely be empty. Even Vintage decks play him, he is that good. :)

2) Since you are packing so much disruption and cheap threats, why not play 2-3 Nether Void to seal the game? It will lock your already disrupted opponent, giving him no chance to recover.

[Esper3k]

@ DeMarki: In regards to Dark Confidant - Eva Green doesn't run any library manipulation, so hitting either Tombstalker or Snuff Out = pain...

[DeMarki]

@ DeMarki: In regards to Dark Confidant - Eva Green doesn't run any library manipulation, so hitting either Tombstalker or Snuff Out = pain...

I understand that of course and in my opinion Dark Confidant would be viable if you could run him instead of Tombstalkers(you already got Shades and Goys as beaters) and also replacing Snuff Out with Diabolic Edict/Powder Keg.

Haven't tested the Kegs so far, but I'm using the Diabolic Edicts at the moment and they are very good, not to mention you can't get rid of your opponent's Tombstalkers/Morphlings with the snuff out.

[coraz86]

I would agree with the voices against the white splash; Eva Green is more about quick thunder than about raw power. You want to hit hard and hit early. As good as StP and Vindicate are, this deck has no room for them. I like being able to blow anything up, but I'd agree that Maelstrom Pulse is better for this by already being in our colors.
I'd also agree that it's ridiculous to not run Maelstrom Pulse simply because you don't want it when you have a Goyf staredown; you do have other ways of dealing with opposing Goyfs, plus Pulse is nice if your opponent tries to break the stalemate by making another Goyf.

@DF; there's a whole thread on a Doran-Eva idea here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12432). Again, though, that feels more like a tempo/aggro-control deck than a pure steamroller like Eva Green. I'm not willing to argue against the idea of a speedy Doran deck as an idea so much as against that idea being coincident with this one. Which way you go is a taste issue, which I won't quibble over.

[Berzerked]

Not to mention actually playing said Snuff out will cost you another 4 life, and that's after playing a couple of Thoughtseize and popping some fetches. Not cool. Plus he doesn't swing for enough and dies to everything.

That being said, I have seen many players go -2 Stalker +2 Bob, -2 Snuff Out + 2 Edict. You definitely don't want to replace all of your Stalkers, he's wayyy too good. Also, Shade is possibly one of the weakest slots in the deck, as you often want to be playing spells rather than doing an extra 2-3 damage, or trying to make him big enough to live in battle.

[Esper3k]

I understand that of course and in my opinion Dark Confidant would be viable if you could run him instead of Tombstalkers(you already got Shades and Goys as beaters) and also replacing Snuff Out with Diabolic Edict/Powder Keg.

Haven't tested the Kegs so far, but I'm using the Diabolic Edicts at the moment and they are very good, not to mention you can't get rid of your opponent's Tombstalkers/Morphlings with the snuff out.

Dark Confidant is a great card, no doubt. However, if you cut the Tombstalkers, now you're increasing your succeptibility to Counterbalance/Top, cutting down the threat density of the deck, and really losing a very fast clock on your disrupted opponent.

Problem with Dark Confidant in this deck is that it takes a few turns to really affect the game. Eva Green tries to disrupt your opponent early and overwhelm them before they can recover.

Likewise with Diabolic Edict - yes, it can hit more things. However, it costs you 2 mana while Snuff Out costs you 0 mana. Edict is a better card in general, for sure, but Snuff Out is a better card if all you care about is tempo.

Kegs again - they take turns to matter. Also, with so many 2 drops in this deck, you may find yourself blowing up more of your own stuff than you'd like.

[coraz86]

I understand that of course and in my opinion Dark Confidant would be viable if you could run him instead of Tombstalkers(you already got Shades and Goys as beaters) and also replacing Snuff Out with Diabolic Edict/Powder Keg.

--Snuff Out is in the deck because it doesn't cost mana to play, which is amazing. Diabloic Edict is good, but it costs mana. Powder Keg is strictly inferior to Deed and Explosives, both of which are easier to maneuver around things like Counterbalance and both of which work sooner.
--Having Dark Confidant to draw more stuff doesn't matter if there isn't stuff there to draw, and Shade is kind of awkward on its face. As with Snuff Out, you want to conserve mana at every turn, and constantly having to pump Shade is a little awkward. I'd also mention that in hundreds of games playing this deck with both Bob and Tombstalker, they've only intersected three or four times. I don't consider myself a lucksack, so this seems okay to me.
Not to mention that having most of your dudes cost two makes your deck awful against things running EE or Chalice (a giant problem I had when running both Bob and Shade during that brief period when it seemed good).

EDIT: I'm saying more or less the same things Esper did, I'm just apparently a slower typist. :-/ I don't mean to sound like an asshole or beat a dead horse, so don't take offense or anything.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, no offense is intended by my posts either, btw.

I love playing this deck and I just believe that the greatest strength is the tempo it generates. Slowing the deck down, even for cards that are amazing, is typically a change that I don't support.

[DeMarki]

Problem with Dark Confidant in this deck is that it takes a few turns to really affect the game. Eva Green tries to disrupt your opponent early and overwhelm them before they can recover.

Likewise with Diabolic Edict - yes, it can hit more things. However, it costs you 2 mana while Snuff Out costs you 0 mana. Edict is a better card in general, for sure, but Snuff Out is a better card if all you care about is tempo.

I both agree and disagree with you. Dark Confidant might not turn the game to your favor the moment it hits play, but it's very cheap, efficient and starts creating card advantage from turn 3. what usually happens and makes me frustrated is playing all my threats early and sitting with an empty hand on turn 4, hoping to draw a threat next turn.

Have you thought about using using Nether Void in Eva-Green? I can't see any reason why not using it to be honest in a deck like this. Most of the time it will be 3B: You win the game.

[Esper3k]

I both agree and disagree with you. Dark Confidant might not turn the game to your favor the moment it hits play, but it's very cheap, efficient and starts creating card advantage from turn 3. what usually happens and makes me frustrated is playing all my threats early and sitting with an empty hand on turn 4, hoping to draw a threat next turn.

Have you thought about using using Nether Void in Eva-Green? I can't see any reason why not using it to be honest in a deck like this. Most of the time it will be 3B: You win the game.

With Dark Confidant, you don't actually start getting card advantage until your second upkeep (the 1st one, you're just breaking even as it just replaces itself). Plus, you effectively did nothing (didn't disrupt or play a game-ending threat) with the mana you spent on Dark Confidant.

Sometimes you can indeed run out of gas with this deck. It's very possible that you blow your disruption and can't draw finishers while they're down. Unfortunately, without library manipulation or card draw, that's one of the things we contend with.

Nether Void seems interesting, but I would be worried about its casting cost (4 can be difficult to reach quickly), trying to draw gas and drawing that instead, or worst case - having it backfire on you...

Anyone else have thoughts on Nether Void?

[DeMarki]

Nether Void seems interesting, but I would be worried about its casting cost (4 can be difficult to reach quickly), trying to draw gas and drawing that instead, or worst case - having it backfire on you...

Anyone else have thoughts on Nether Void?

After you've played your early disruption and threats, you either win the game or follow a topdecking path to losing.

You won't have that problem with Void. It will seal your lead, like an Armageddon would. With a Goyf or a Shade on the board, and nothing to threaten its existence, you will certainly win in a short few turns.

[Patrunkenphat7]

In response to PtE, I think it's really, really bad. That being said, I've never tested it - but I am 99% confident of this. In theory it combats one of the main ideas of the deck: mana denial.
For this deck to be effective, you have 3 primary tools to protect and clear the way for your awesome creatures:
-Hand Disruption
-Mana Denial
-Creature Removal
-*Secondary: artifact and enchantment removal

You should not unbalance these, as its important to have aspects of all in the MD. A major imbalance will cause the deck to have more unreliable MU's. Adding PtE would completely detract from the Mana Denial to help a creature removal problem that doesn't even exist, because Snuff Out plays this role just fine. And Vindicate is there to play 2 primary roles and a secondary role; it's worth splashing for only this card, I promise.

As far as creature removal goes, Snuff Out > StP > PtE.

I do believe StP is awesome in the SB though. I stick it in there as a 2-of. If you have StP in SB and Vindicate MD, you will have an edge against our B/g Eva Green brothers in the 'mirror'.

[DalkonCledwin]

I have a question, why are people adding white to this deck when it can stay green and black only? Thanks primarily to the printing of Maelstrom Pulse. It seems like doing that would make the deck much more like traditional rock, additionally it would make the deck much more unstable when it comes to the mana base. I find that with so few lands even with the help of the original dual lands, the mana base is spread incredibly thin when one gets up to 3 colors, and is incredibly vulnerable to things such as other decks like our own, or even worse Dragon Stompy. I would hate to see this deck getting much better match ups overall, only to start losing to a relatively obscure deck, that is otherwise not very good.

So please explain to me why you are making this deck into three colors instead of trying to optimize the two colors that it already ran?

[Skeggi]

Well DalkonCledwin, you can run Maelstom Pulse and Vindicate; I've recently splashed white and my Eva Braun list evolved in some sort of mix between Eva Green and The Rock. It's pretty consistent and alot of fun to play because you destroy everything. Check it out:

Eva Braun:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Troll Ascetic (!)

4 Vindicate
4 Maeltstrom Pulse
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:


4 Orim's Chant
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Choke
4 Pernicious Deed


The deck still plays heavy disruption and has a heavy LD-suite, but on the other hand, the Dark Rituals, Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic Specters had to give way. 8 'Kill whatever' spells are very nice to have and really powerful. This way you don't need creatures with evasion because there's nothing there to block anyway. Troll Ascetic + Umezawa's Jitte = awesomesauce. The whole thing is alot more mana intensive than traditional Eva Green, but it runs 23 lands, Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Confidant, so you'll get there soon enough.


I would hate to see this deck getting much better match ups overall, only to start losing to a relatively obscure deck, that is otherwise not very good.

I totally disagree with you on this point. I'd prefer better match-ups overall, over a better match-up against a single deck that is hardly played.

[DalkonCledwin]

How is that deck even really "BG Suicide" anymore... it doesn't have the composite parts of a suicide deck all that much really... I would definitely classify that deck more as a rock deck than I would a suicide deck. And even then that is pushing it... this deck you just posted is "a different archetype" entirely than Eva Green, not to mention the Rock....

Even still, I would much rather maintain the traditional Eva Green status of the deck and try to make that deck better within the confines of the colors that it originally had, than trying to make the deck into something it never was. This push to add colors that weren't in the original color scheme is if you ask me a futile effort.

[DragoFireheart]

Well DalkonCledwin, you can run Maelstom Pulse and Vindicate; I've recently splashed white and my Eva Braun list evolved in some sort of mix between Eva Green and The Rock. It's pretty consistent and alot of fun to play because you destroy everything. Check it out:

Eva Braun:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Troll Ascetic (!)

4 Vindicate
4 Maeltstrom Pulse
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:


4 Orim's Chant
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Choke
4 Pernicious Deed


The deck still plays heavy disruption and has a heavy LD-suite, but on the other hand, the Dark Rituals, Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic Specters had to give way. 8 'Kill whatever' spells are very nice to have and really powerful. This way you don't need creatures with evasion because there's nothing there to block anyway. Troll Ascetic + Umezawa's Jitte = awesomesauce. The whole thing is alot more mana intensive than traditional Eva Green, but it runs 23 lands, Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Confidant, so you'll get there soon enough.


I totally disagree with you on this point. I'd prefer better match-ups overall, over a better match-up against a single deck that is hardly played.

That's not Eva Green. The set up looks slow without Dark Ritual and massive disruption like Hymm.

It looks more like a tempo-Rock or something.

[DalkonCledwin]

That's not Eva Green. The set up looks slow without Dark Ritual and massive disruption like Hymm.

It looks more like a tempo-Rock or something.

thank you :D I completely agree, that for some reason does not look like Eva Green, and I am hesitant to even call it the Rock, it is so.... weak looking...

[Patrunkenphat7]

In response to Maelstrum Pulse, I splash white because Vindicate is vastly better than this card. You still have to have green to play Pulse, and when you think about it, its really no different than casting Vindicate; you just need a different nonbasic. With my mana base, I have 13 ways to get green, 12 ways to get white, and 10 ways to get a basic swamp. The mana base is extremely consistent, and fetching white is almost the same as fetching green when you run only 4 cards that need green (Goyf). For Maelstrum Pulse, you still need a bayou! And for those of you running 4 bayou, my deck that runs 3 bayou and 2 scrubland is barely any different when it comes to dealing with an opponent's Wasteland every now and then.

Note that it is horrible to play basic forests in this deck! I kills the consistency of the BB mana cost cards and hurts Nantuko Shade.

[Shawon]

you just need a different nonbasic.

Sometimes you have to pick between choosing to fetch a Bayou or a Scrubland. You face these decisions when you splash white for Vindicate. Running Maelstorm Pulse avoids all that, and if you still have a spot removal effect.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Sometimes you have to pick between choosing to fetch a Bayou or a Scrubland. You face these decisions when you splash white for Vindicate. Running Maelstorm Pulse avoids all that, and if you still have a spot removal effect.

True, but you don't have a land destruction spell which can wins games, and sometimes you won't want to kill their goyf when you have to take yours out with it.

[DeMarki]

Has anyone tried Nether Void in this deck? I did and I found it to be quite the bomb.

As I mention before, after you've played your early disruption and threats, you either win the game or follow a topdecking path to losing.

You won't have that problem with Void. It will seal your lead, like an Armageddon would. With a Goyf or a Shade on the board, and nothing to threaten its existence, you will certainly win in a short few turns.

[LegacyDan]

True, but you don't have a land destruction spell which can wins games, and sometimes you won't want to kill their goyf when you have to take yours out with it.

I must say that I really don't agree with this point of view. Having 8 different forms of LD has always worked in the past, so I will gladly trade off a Vindicate to hit multiples a whatever is annoying me. IDK how many times I have been mad because someone set a Chalice @ 1 and another @2. The option to possibly get two cards for the price of one is always appelling to me (which is why I LOVE Hymn to Tourach!!).

[DalkonCledwin]

Has anyone tried Nether Void in this deck? I did and I found it to be quite the bomb.

As I mention before, after you've played your early disruption and threats, you either win the game or follow a topdecking path to losing.

You won't have that problem with Void. It will seal your lead, like an Armageddon would. With a Goyf or a Shade on the board, and nothing to threaten its existence, you will certainly win in a short few turns.

this deck is already expensive enough, don't you think?

Anyways, Nethervoid hurts you just as much as it hurts your opponent.


I must say that I really don't agree with this point of view. Having 8 different forms of LD has always worked in the past, so I will gladly trade off a Vindicate to hit multiples a whatever is annoying me. IDK how many times I have been mad because someone set a Chalice @ 1 and another @2. The option to possibly get two cards for the price of one is always appelling to me (which is why I LOVE Hymn to Tourach!!).

So are you saying you would prefer Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse? Personally in the scenerio you suggested I would prefer Maelstrom Pulse, but that is just me...

[DeMarki]

this deck is already expensive enough, don't you think?

Anyways, Nethervoid hurts you just as much as it hurts your opponent.


You will obviously play it in order to seal the game and not when it's going to hurt you more than it will your opponent.

With a Goyf down and a crippled hand/manabase your opponent won't recover from it.

[DalkonCledwin]

You will obviously play it in order to seal the game and not when it's going to hurt you more than it will your opponent.

With a Goyf down and a crippled hand/manabase your opponent won't recover from it.

still the card costs in excess of 70 dollars, and it isn't even a alpha/beta nor is it a foil... I don't see any reason for spending that much money when the deck is capable of performing perfectly fine without it.

[LegacyDan]

I guess what I am trying to say is: trade me some foil Maelstroms. I need two to complete my playset. They suck. You don't need them. Vindicate is far better.

*do Jedi mind tricks work over the internet?

In all honesty, Pulse cuts down our dependency on foreign mana colors.

- Vindicate + Maelstrom Pulse, this lets you keep a more focused mana base, allowing more basic lands in the deck for the bad matchups like opposing Wastelands/Moons. Now I can go rogue and put in a Windswept Heath or two to get out my basic Forests (LoL I is are so doing thats).

- StP/PtE + whatever black removal spell you like, Black has never really had a problem removing creatures, unless you forgot to put the card of choice into the deck itself.

[DeMarki]

still the card costs in excess of 70 dollars, and it isn't even a alpha/beta nor is it a foil... I don't see any reason for spending that much money when the deck is capable of performing perfectly fine without it.

That's not a valid argument though, the card is legal in Legacy and cost less than 2 Tarmogoyfs, this is a tournament quality deck discussion, not a Bugdet B/G Sui thread. :)

[DalkonCledwin]

That's not a valid argument though, the card is legal in Legacy and cost less than 2 Tarmogoyfs, this is a tournament quality deck discussion, not a Bugdet B/G Sui thread. :)

I am not saying it is... however have you actually tested the card? Is it actually better than any of the other cards which you would have to take out for it to be viable in this deck?

[DeMarki]

I am not saying it is... however have you actually tested the card? Is it actually better than any of the other cards which you would have to take out for it to be viable in this deck?

I tested it and I like it, I will post my version of this deck:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff out
3 Nether Void

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
6 Swamp

I play more aggressively, thus runing Negators over Hypnotic Specters. Against combo/control a first turn Negator is deadly and it's a 4 turn clock.
Void might cost 4, but it can be played fast with a ritual and it's there in order to seal the game once you have the advantage.
I keep the Kroshan Grips in the Sideboard, so I run 3 if needed on the second match. I also run 3 Tombstalkers cause I don't want to draw too many of them since you can't play them easily.

[DragoFireheart]

I play more aggressively, thus runing Negators over Hypnotic Specters.


I really, really don't like Negators. maybe there was a time and place where they were king, but when the average creature is a 4/5, it just pales in comparison.

For control match ups, they WILL have blockers, be it tarmogoyf, factories and what not. The loss of permanents can be killer in the early game, and late game? Why bother. Tombstalker is superior and doesn't have to worry about losing you permanents.

I can see him being decent in combo however some like Ichorid might choose to chump block him.

And god forbid you play him first turn only to have him eat a bolt. :cry:

[Patrunkenphat7]

I really, really don't like Negators. maybe there was a time and place where they were king, but when the average creature is a 4/5, it just pales in comparison.

For control match ups, they WILL have blockers, be it tarmogoyf, factories and what not. The loss of permanents can be killer in the early game, and late game? Why bother. Tombstalker is superior and doesn't have to worry about losing you permanents.

I can see him being decent in combo however some like Ichorid might choose to chump block him.

And god forbid you play him first turn only to have him eat a bolt. :cry:

I completely agree with everything said here. Negator is pretty crappy in the current meta. It is infinitely more of a liability than a threat.

[DeMarki]

How do you guys justify the use of Confidants, Thoughtseizes and Fetchlands in the deck, without a way to gain life back or to combo out and win the game on turn 3? Isn't that a hell of a lot life loss?

Not to mention that if Bob flips a Tombstalker it will be game over.

[Deviruchi]

Thanks to these cards you will win more than lose. Also thanks to these you will win more than by not playing them at all.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Instead of seal you need like.. rancor or berserk. I don't really see how this is suicide at all otherwise 'cause your slowing it down instead of taking the risks to win fast. I think berserk adds that chance that they'll lose at 14 life ;P
Personally I'd just sideboard the seals, or replace with Krosan Grip better yet.

[Patrunkenphat7]

How do you guys justify the use of Confidants, Thoughtseizes and Fetchlands in the deck, without a way to gain life back or to combo out and win the game on turn 3? Isn't that a hell of a lot life loss?

Not to mention that if Bob flips a Tombstalker it will be game over.

Well I personally believe that the optimal builds don't use Dark Confidants. But the use of Thoughtseizes, fetchlands, and *Snuff Out* is definitely well justified. The tempo of this deck is purely awesome. From my experience, this deck has been putting up extremely positive results recently.

[coraz86]

Instead of seal you need like.. rancor or berserk. I don't really see how this is suicide at all otherwise 'cause your slowing it down instead of taking the risks to win fast. I think berserk adds that chance that they'll lose at 14 life ;P
Personally I'd just sideboard the seals, or replace with Krosan Grip better yet.

...except that Seal of Primordium answers problems the deck has (Humility, Standstill, everything dangerous in Faerie/Dragon Stompy, Grindstone....I could go on for days) that otherwise would be awful for us in game one. Berserk is win more (and carries a triple-digit price tag); it doesn't do shit on its own. Rancor is also more or less win more; I'd run Jitte over it (again, Jitte answers problems like Goblins and Zoo).
I'm not sure what kind of home Jitte has in here though; I don't ever want to see it early, I usually use it mid-game to stay ahead once my discard and board control have gotten me ahead.

I agree with P7 on the life loss issue, although in a control/combo meta, I like having three Bobs and two Tops for consistency's sake.
You might also board Darkheart Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126012) or Bottle Gnomes if you're really worried about the life loss. I think I'd throw them in the Hyppie slots, since Hyppie is kind of an annoyance to Zoo/Goyf Sligh/etc. if it doesn't come down turn one (and then only if they don't Bolt or StP it, in which case you've gotten nothing out of the deal). That seems excessive to me though.

[kidsmokin]

...except that Seal of Primordium answers problems the deck has (Humility, Standstill, everything dangerous in Faerie/Dragon Stompy, Grindstone....I could go on for days) that otherwise would be awful for us in game one. Berserk is win more (and carries a triple-digit price tag); it doesn't do shit on its own. Rancor is also more or less win more; I'd run Jitte over it (again, Jitte answers problems like Goblins and Zoo).
I'm not sure what kind of home Jitte has in here though; I don't ever want to see it early, I usually use it mid-game to stay ahead once my discard and board control have gotten me ahead.

I agree with P7 on the life loss issue, although in a control/combo meta, I like having three Bobs and two Tops for consistency's sake.
You might also board Darkheart Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126012) or Bottle Gnomes if you're really worried about the life loss. I think I'd throw them in the Hyppie slots, since Hyppie is kind of an annoyance to Zoo/Goyf Sligh/etc. if it doesn't come down turn one (and then only if they don't Bolt or StP it, in which case you've gotten nothing out of the deal). That seems excessive to me though.

I agree with the Seal stuff. At best it's a MD answer vs. virtually everything that hates on Eva Green. At worst? You sac it to itself and it becomes Tarmo-food. Jitte is SB stuff for anti-aggro matchups where the deck's life-loss actually becomes an issue. You side out the stuff that obviously doesn't do too hot vs. aggro.

If you can't deal with the life loss, you're probably either A. making some misplays (everyone does, though), or B. Eva Green isn't the deck you're looking for. This is a suicide deck, after all. Jitte is still probably your best bet in this regard to mitigate life loss, Darkheart Sliver is meh and Bottle Gnomes is way too slow for a deck that relies on tempo.

Granted, I haven't played the deck in a long time and I think the list I have is still the original...

[Mystical_Jackass]

...except that Seal of Primordium answers problems the deck has (Humility, Standstill, everything dangerous in Faerie/Dragon Stompy, Grindstone....I could go on for days) that otherwise would be awful for us in game one. Berserk is win more (and carries a triple-digit price tag); it doesn't do shit on its own. Rancor is also more or less win more; I'd run Jitte over it (again, Jitte answers problems like Goblins and Zoo).
I'm not sure what kind of home Jitte has in here though; I don't ever want to see it early, I usually use it mid-game to stay ahead once my discard and board control have gotten me ahead.

I'm just saying it seems kind of defensive for a Sui Black deck. You already have thoughtseize, ritual, hymn, spectre to take care of card removal... that IS your control. You're asking... what about standstill, countertop, etc. well that's where those come in. Dropping Seals game 1 seems like your taking up a card slot of another beater or "giant growth-ish" spell to compliment the suicide nature of "win before I lose", or sorta playing defensive. Like I just said, I'm just dropping ideas to speed up the kill that goes along with the nature of the deck not slow it down, and green has some of the best pump up spells in the game. Yeah berserk isn't cheap, but neither is goyf & fetch these days lol.. hey could be worse, could be imperial painter ;P Berserk also provides removal for the deck, could substitute snuff out possibly.

[MasterC]

Hi guys,
i am going on a big turnament this weekend. i decided to play 3 Extirpates MD instead of 3xSeal of Primodium. Now I have to play some Seal/grips in the sideboard. I wondered if you guys think that the Leylines are now redundant and could be cutted from the SB if I put the 4th Extirpate in my SB? Is that enough grave hate?
Leyline was for:
Ichorid --> Ichorid, BfB
Loam --> LftL
SotF--> SotF, Squee, Genesis
Staxx--> Crucible

All of the cards can be dealed with Extirpate I think!

I mean ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is pretty fucked if you extirpate a mongoose or goyf since they often only play 8 creatures.--> Just a thought

PLZ share your idea

THX

Hey there,
Extirpate is a really bad choice in any aggressive deck.
In Eva Green you want to win as soon as possible.
The advantage of extirpate (which is basically preventing an opponent from drawing a certain card again) is completely irrelevant in a game that doesnt reach lategame.
Because the propability of hitting a card with extirpate in the graveyard while another copy of the card is in the opponents hand is very small. So most of the time you pay :b: and one card to remove a card that's already in the opponents graveyard. And against most of the graveyard-based decks, extirpate isn't that devastating compared with leyline.

Ichorid: Laughs at a single extirpate, gets wasted by Leyline
Survival: Laughs at people boarding gy hate against them
Loam: Extirpate is maybe better
Stax: Laughs at people boarding gy hate against them.
Any other Deck: Leyline is better

Maybe you can use extirpate against combo to remove combo parts or winconditions. But Combodecks should already be a rather decent matchup with shit tons of disruption.

The only deck I could see playing extirpate with a good use is Pox. Maybe MBC, because they are slow enough to profit from the diminished "Thread density" of the opponents deck.

[kidsmokin]

I'm just saying it seems kind of defensive for a Sui Black deck. You already have thoughtseize, ritual, hymn, spectre to take care of card removal... that IS your control. You're asking... what about standstill, countertop, etc. well that's where those come in. Dropping Seals game 1 seems like your taking up a card slot of another beater or "giant growth-ish" spell to compliment the suicide nature of "win before I lose", or sorta playing defensive. Like I just said, I'm just dropping ideas to speed up the kill that goes along with the nature of the deck not slow it down, and green has some of the best pump up spells in the game. Yeah berserk isn't cheap, but neither is goyf & fetch these days lol.. hey could be worse, could be imperial painter ;P Berserk also provides removal for the deck, could substitute snuff out possibly.

But, honestly, look. There are cards that mean "I win" for the opponent if they land. Humility, Standstill, equipment, they all give Eva Green fits when they land. The opponent, unless via some miraculous, extraordinary set of circumstances, will win. Any Landstill deck, after landing Humility, should win without great exception or they should be slapped in the face. Seal takes care of that. Do you lose a little bit of speed? Perhaps, but to even have a chance against those decks in those crises you need some sort of out, which is what Seal provides. It's the notion of consistency vs. sheer power/glass cannon, and every time I'll take the more consistent model. Also note that landing an early Seal will discourage the opponent from playing any of the said "I wins" vs. Eva Green, which means in the abstract sense we are gaining tempo (since they are not executing their strategy at the correct pace).

Plus, pump spells say "Hey, let's 2-for-1 myself, awesome!" Because this deck doesn't use a draw engine to accumulate advantage, it's critical to make every card count and be worth its own weight in gold...something pump spells can't do.

edit: no offense should be taken, i'm just trying to debate the issue. i'm insistent on seal, you see.

[Mystical_Jackass]

np at all. I'll have to see it played out, I'm an old school suicide black fan, I used to use negator, carno, grinning demon, hippie, etc way way back was a lot of fun to play. ;P
Wish we could fit in ol' Ihsan into the mix >.<

[Patrunkenphat7]

But, honestly, look. There are cards that mean "I win" for the opponent if they land. Humility, Standstill, equipment, they all give Eva Green fits when they land. The opponent, unless via some miraculous, extraordinary set of circumstances, will win. Any Landstill deck, after landing Humility, should win without great exception or they should be slapped in the face. Seal takes care of that. Do you lose a little bit of speed? Perhaps, but to even have a chance against those decks in those crises you need some sort of out, which is what Seal provides. It's the notion of consistency vs. sheer power/glass cannon, and every time I'll take the more consistent model. Also note that landing an early Seal will discourage the opponent from playing any of the said "I wins" vs. Eva Green, which means in the abstract sense we are gaining tempo (since they are not executing their strategy at the correct pace).

Plus, pump spells say "Hey, let's 2-for-1 myself, awesome!" Because this deck doesn't use a draw engine to accumulate advantage, it's critical to make every card count and be worth its own weight in gold...something pump spells can't do.

edit: no offense should be taken, i'm just trying to debate the issue. i'm insistent on seal, you see.

Or everyone could just splash white for Vindicate! haha

[AnwarA101]

Or everyone could just splash white for Vindicate! haha

You don't have to splash white. You can just play Maelstrom Pulse.

[Patrunkenphat7]

You don't have to splash white. You can just play Maelstrom Pulse.

Yeah I was semi-kidding cause I know how most people feel about the white splash, but I will stand by my Vindicates being insanely better than Pulse, especially with my recent playtesting :P I'm sure nobody wants to have this discussion again though haha. It has definitely been beaten into the ground.

[nitewolf9]

...but I will stand by my Vindicates being insanely better than Pulse, especially with my recent playtesting :P

You tested Maelstrom Pulse extensively in the same matchups as you tested Vindicate and came to this conclusion? Was the ability to destroy a land really that relevant? Did Pulse's potential to clear away multiples of cards/tokens never come up? I don't know about this, I think having a sturdier manabase is a huge advantage.

[electrolyze]

Here is my new eva green list:

4xtombstalker
4xnantuko shade
4xtarmogoyf
4xhypnotic specter

4xsnuff out
4xthoughtseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xsinkhole
4xdark ritual

3xcursed scroll

3xbayou
4xdelta
4xmire
4xwasteland
6xswamp

Side:

4xkrosan grip
3/4xchoke
3/4xengineered plague
0/4xleyline of the void
0/3xjitte

Sideboard depends on the meta.

The inclusion of scroll is really great for my meta i think. Its very good against merfolks, winning in the control mu, goyf wars, killing confidants and for the extra damage to kill your opponent. In my testing it proved to be really strong so i'm gonna play it on the next tourney i'll go to.

[Patrunkenphat7]

You tested Maelstrom Pulse extensively in the same matchups as you tested Vindicate and came to this conclusion? Was the ability to destroy a land really that relevant? Did Pulse's potential to clear away multiples of cards/tokens never come up? I don't know about this, I think having a sturdier manabase is a huge advantage.

In many matchups, 40% the time I used Vindicate would be to destroy lands. And believe me, many wins come from land destruction with this deck. Concerning the 'weakness of manabase', if you are reffering to Blood Moon effects, that is a valid point. I personally haven't run into many blood moons and magi of the moon, but if they're prevelant in certain people's metas, it is certainly a slight disadvantage over only having the green splash. Concerning Wasteland, the white splash isnt any more of an issue than the green splash. Its hard to fulling explain the dynamics of fetching the right lands at the right times, so just try it out for yourself. I haven't run into many situations where Pulse's 'multiples' ability is beneficial, but it certainly does occur occasionally. It should also be noted that Pulse is a huge liability when both players have a goyf on the board and you want to kill theirs. In the end, the 'multiples' rule is slightly more beneficial than it is harmful, and it really shouldn't effect a person's decision on playing the card.
For me, the Pros and Cons come down to:
land destruction against all decks
vs
Slightly weaker against Blood Moon effects and things like Back to Basics

I find that the help from land destruction is just so dominant that it heavily outweighs the negatives of having 2 Scrubland in my list.

Also, I'd just like to note that it is definitely natural reaction for people to say "splashing a third color makes the deck so weak to nonbasic hate", but it is barely different from just splashing green. If you haven't tried it, definitely proxy it up sometime. I've played both B/g and B/g/w which really helps me see the true differences between the different builds. I think each has their own place in different metas, but my list seems to be performing excellently as of late.

I know this is a minority opinion on this thread, but I am quite confidant about Vindicate. Any white splash supporters feel free to speak up as well haha.

@electrolyze: If Cursed Scroll is working in your meta, that's awesome. I would say, however, that it would be better to go with a more standard Pulse or Seal in most tournaments, as Cursed Scroll is comparatively pretty weak compared to these cards against most decks.

[Lance]

I've received similars comments myself here about the white splash.

I appreciate the knowledge I can get here from some sourcer's, but I also think that there is alot of closeminded folks here...

I consider myself a good Eva green player. I'm not saying I'm the best with the deck, but I do very well with it. And the white splash is good, not better, just different.

Some comments here make me laugh. For exemple, when Team America came out, a lot of people were like: "there is not reason to play Eva Green anymore", etc., wich is clearly a dumb comment. :laugh:

Ben Kowel did top8 in GP:Chicago with over 1200 players with Dead Eva, not Eva Green, but Eva Green with a white splash for:
1-better removal,
2-the possibility to play Dark Confidant and
3-a weaker mana base.

I'm not saying that it mean anything except that, the splash worth at the very least a try. Give it a shot, bring it in a local tourney and see how you do with the deck. You can tweak it if you feel comfortable about it: I prefer more duress effects (4 TS and 2 duress is a good balance for me) and I don't like sensei's divining top very much in the deck and I also can't play without at least 2 Jitte maindeck.

I absolutly hate comments like "you can't play that because you gotta win in short order with Eva to have a shot" or other similar replys. That is just not true at all, and certainly not for Dead Eva, wich can draw via Bob. I've won countless long games with deck on topdeck mode.

Just try things and come with your own conclusions after some real testing. :wink:

[Patrunkenphat7]

I've received similars comments myself here about the white splash.

I appreciate the knowledge I can get here from some sourcer's, but I also think that there is alot of closeminded folks here...

I consider myself a good Eva green player. I'm not saying I'm the best with the deck, but I do very well with it. And the white splash is good, not better, just different.

Some comments here make me laugh. For exemple, when Team America came out, a lot of people were like: "there is not reason to play Eva Green anymore", etc., wich is clearly a dumb comment. :laugh:

Ben Kowel did top8 in GP:Chicago with over 1200 players with Dead Eva, not Eva Green, but Eva Green with a white splash for:
1-better removal,
2-the possibility to play Dark Confidant and
3-a weaker mana base.

I'm not saying that it mean anything except that, the splash worth at the very least a try. Give it a shot, bring it in a local tourney and see how you do with the deck. You can tweak it if you feel comfortable about it: I prefer more duress effects (4 TS and 2 duress is a good balance for me) and I don't like sensei's divining top very much in the deck and I also can't play without at least 2 Jitte maindeck.

I absolutly hate comments like "you can't play that because you gotta win in short order with Eva to have a shot" or other similar replys. That is just not true at all, and certainly not for Dead Eva, wich can draw via Bob. I've won countless long games with deck on topdeck mode.

Just try things and come with your own conclusions after some real testing. :wink:

I agree 100% - I don't think either is necessarily better, they are simply different approaches. Well said.

[Esper3k]

I'd just like to say that I think Kowal's deck is a lot closer to Deadguy than Eva.

Its game was slower and more towards the midgame via Dark Confidants + Tops than Eva's all in rush, as well as cutting Eva's more signature creatures like Hypnotic Spectre and Nantuko Shade. He also cut more of the land destruction elements of Eva (Sinkhole) for more hand disruption, which is generally more of a Deadguy signature.

Rietzl's deck was really an Eva Green deck...

[coraz86]

I absolutly hate comments like "you can't play that because you gotta win in short order with Eva to have a shot" or other similar replys. That is just not true at all, and certainly not for Dead Eva, wich can draw via Bob. I've won countless long games with deck on topdeck mode.

The question is not in what way the deck can win, but in what way the deck functions best. If the white splash version can function more or less the same way as the more routine Bg version, cool; I'm interested in an analysis or primer or some other quantitative argument. I think the question often boils down to whether the suggested changes steer the deck towards the more traditional plodding Rock decks that gradually win through attrition or whether they're innovative kinks in the aggressive Eva Green mold.

I think P7 provided a fair argument in favor of the three-color build a couple posts ago; it's definitely worth testing. Having said that, I've always loved not worrying as much about Wasteland or about having fetches Stifled (I typically only run four in my two-color build, whereas I assume you're running six to eight in the three-color). I guess that's meta-dependent, but I want to throw it out there.

[Sinkhole]

Hallo @ all!

I`m a German Player and started up playing Legacy after a long break.
I decieded to play with Eva Green, because i always loved the Brokeness of Sucide style decks.
(I mean turn 2 double Hymn to Tourach is really insane :tongue: ) I play the deck for a short time now and have some questions on it.

Which card do players prefer on the "Seal Slot"? Seal of Primodium,
Maelstrom Pulse or maybe Krosan Grip, because all have their strenghts
and weaks, so i can`t decide clearly.

Seal of Cleansing: Lowest Manacost, pro active so fits in the deck plan,
but can be countered and stifled.

Maelstrom Pulse: Most flexibel card, it`s never Dead, because can
also hits creatures, but highest mana cost and can be countered

Krosan Grip: Can`t be countered, but high mana cost and not
so flexibel as pulse.

Another problem is, that I`m not feeling comfortable with 8 turn 1 drops. Sometimes i haven`t Ritual or Thoughtseize, so should i take the Mulligan, or keep the hand and go up on turn 2? But i think doing nothing on turn 1 is really bad for this aggressive deck. So i came to the conclusion to cut one Tombstalker for a Duress as Thoughtseize number 5. Make that sense or is it a bad idea?

So thats my current list:

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
3 Seal of Primodium
1 Duress

3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp

Sideboard: I take the Standard!

Thank you for your answers! And sorry for my bad English.

[johanessen]

I think Maelstrom Pulse is the best option. Also, many players change one Nantuko Shade for a single Reanimate, or now even a Snuff Out (because Pulse can deal with creatures) to make space for the second copy. Duress out, there is no reason tu run 61 cards

[Patrunkenphat7]

As far as Duress as a 5th Thoughtseize, that's exactly what I do, and I think it's really good. I would cut a Nantuko Shade for it though, 3 Shades has always seemed the right number to me.

Never mulligan a hand just because you don't have a first turn play; there are a lot of really good hands without a turn 1 play, it just depends. Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Duress does significantly increase your chance of winning against most decks though, it's reeeeally good (especially with ritual, hymn. ouch!).

I agree with johanessan on Pulse for the B/g version, and I also think that you only need 3 Snuff Out if you run Pulse.

[Sinkhole]

Hmm yes cutting Shade down to three make sense, i think. Too many
times he dies to a Ligthing Bolt, Chain Lightning etc..., because you
can`t spend your Mana to pump him. Another point is that, you often
have the mana for pumping up your shade, but playing your disruption
in early game, is the better way to go. He shines in the midgame, but
their should be also your Tombstalker on the board.

Maybe i can cut 1 Tombstalker, because you can´t cast him only one
times and if you have it in hand you don`t want seeing another.
4 Snuff Out seems always good to me, especially now, when Goblins
will more often played these days, again.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yeah I mean it's your call, there's no right answer. I will say, however, that I have cast Tombstalker twice in many games, so don't completely write that one off. He's also the most unanswerable threat that you can draw.

[Rinello]

Hi folks,

Can Nyxathid be a nice card for eva green?
Worse than Specter in early game, better in late, makes your Hymns even better, can be used as a finisher.

[Esper3k]

I'm not a huge fan of Nyxathid in Eva. I think it's a better card for Deadguy where more of your disruption is hand destruction based (as opposed to Eva, which splits between hand and land destruction).

Another issue I have with Nyxathid is that you can't really play him of a T1 Dark Ritual. I mean you can, but he's terrible if you do so.

[Raptor]

I'm just wondering, is this deck still alive or is it being replaced wih faster aggro deck such as Zoo or even goyf sligh ?
And how does this deck fare versus deck with burns such as Zoo, Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, burn and goyf sligh ? Is there anything reallly good to side in vs these decks ?
I used to play Suicide Black, and might possibly want to shift to Eva Green, but it's kind of a bit of an investisment. My metagame is fulled with Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Survival (with blue), merfolk and to a lesser extent, burn and RGW zoo. Is it a good metagame choice ?
Thanks

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm just wondering, is this deck still alive or is it being replaced wih faster aggro deck such as Zoo or even goyf sligh ?
And how does this deck fare versus deck with burns such as Zoo, Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, burn and goyf sligh ? Is there anything reallly good to side in vs these decks ?
I used to play Suicide Black, and might possibly want to shift to Eva Green, but it's kind of a bit of an investisment. My metagame is fulled with Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Survival (with blue), merfolk and to a lesser extent, burn and RGW zoo. Is it a good metagame choice ?
Thanks

This deck is definitely still viable, it's my favorite deck out of the 3 decks I usually play. I would say the Canadian Thresh, Survival with blue, and merfolk matchups are favorable. Zoo is pretty even as long as they don't pack too much burn and as long as you play some good black creature removal in your list. GoyfSligh is unfavorable and Burn is very unfavorable. Pack a couple Jitte in your SB for these matchups, as well as Pericious Deed for the Zoo deck. I splash white for Vindicate, so I also have some StP in my SB as well. Honestly the white splash would be better than pure Eva Green against all of those decks you mentioned except Merfolk, which is still a very favorable matchup.

[Raptor]

This deck is definitely still viable, it's my favorite deck out of the 3 decks I usually play. I would say the Canadian Thresh, Survival with blue, and merfolk matchups are favorable. Zoo is pretty even as long as they don't pack too much burn and as long as you play some good black creature removal in your list. GoyfSligh is unfavorable and Burn is very unfavorable. Pack a couple Jitte in your SB for these matchups, as well as Pericious Deed for the Zoo deck. I splash white for Vindicate, so I also have some StP in my SB as well. Honestly the white splash would be better than pure Eva Green against all of those decks you mentioned except Merfolk, which is still a very favorable matchup.

The thing I don't like with Dead Eva is mainly the fact that scrubland are not really useful for another competitive deck so it could be a "waste" of money. I think that it would be better in my metagame to down the Snuff out count for like 2 smother and to run jitte main deck instead of seal.

[coraz86]

I played b/g Eva on Saturday, and while I didn't do well enough to bother with a full report, I would like to state for the record that Leyline of the Void is a house against Landstill. At four mana, it's hard for them to take off the table if they're not running Vindicate, and it shuts off both Crucible of Worlds and Academy Ruins, which in my experience are huge problems.

[electrolyze]

I played it on sunday and became 2th with the deck. There were 28 players with 6 rounds and a t4.

This was my list:

4xtombstalker
4xshade
4xgoyf
4xhippie

4xritual
4xsnuff out

4xthougtseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xsinkhole

3xcursed scroll

3xbayou
4xdelta
4xmire
4xwasteland
6xswamp

side:

2xdiabolic edict
2xjitte
2xpithing needle
3xkrosan grip
3xengineered plague
3xchoke

This were my mu's and a small report:

1 - Ant 2-1

Game 1: I got enough disruption in the beginnning to slow him down, after that I got a goyf and a shade and I was too fast for him to recover.

Game 2: He got a very quick t2 kill with ad nauseum.

game 3: I had some mediocre disruption cards in the beginning(t1 seize and t2 sinkhole), but I boarded chokes in and he didnt expected that. So after he tapping his land out for some cantrips, I played choke. After the choke he didnt get a land and only had rituals and led's in his hands.

2 - dude with a vinelasher kudzu deck(some extended portover) 1-2

Game 1: My hand was really insane with rituals and hymns, stalkers, seizes and stuff, so I rolled him over before knowing wat he was playing.

Game 2: 'cause I didnt know against what I was playing, it was hard to board. Luckily I saw a shackles, so I boarded some grips and chokes in. This game was really bad for me, He played t1 visions and got too much beats in the beginning(2 kudzu's and a goyf) so i couldnt keep up with him.

Game 3: This game I made a bad play. I started with a fetch to a swamp because I thought he could play wasteland in his deck because of the land theme with kudzu and stuff. After that, for the whole game I didnt saw any fetch or bayou and sat there with a hand consisted of 2 goyfs, 3 chokes and 2 grips:confused:

3 - tribal zoo 2-1

Game 1: I got rolled by his small horde of monkeys and cats. And if that wasnt enough he had to vindicate my only tombstalker in the game.

Game 2: I boarded jitte and edicts in and they really helped me out. First I start with some disruption. Then he got a ape and a goyf or something, and I had a goyf and a shade I think. Then he played a dark confidant, so I got a little scared('cause bob sucks for me). Luckily I topdecked a edict, god the card really saved my game. After killing his bob I could race him easily.

Game 3: This game was realy weird and exciting. We both started with some creatures but he killed mine with path's and vindicates and I killed him too. After that, we both topdecked way to much lands. And then he got a woolly thoctar but in the meanwhile I had a jitte on table and topdecked a stalker. So then I raced him again and won. It still was very exciting, because i was only at 5 life at that point and he was still on 17.

4 - merfolks 2-0

Game 1: Was a very easy game, started with ritual into scroll that he countered, luckily I had another scroll which he couldnt counter. After that I burned all his creates to death the whole game and won with a stalker.

Game 2: I played some disruption, after that he had a kira, reejery and a silvergill adept on the table. To bad for him I topdecked edicts and already had a stalker and a shade in the game. He was forced to block and in the end he couldnt block anymore and i won:laugh:

5 - dreadstill with goyfs 2-1

Game 1: I got some cool ritual plays in the beginning and dealed him some damage. Only then he got a nought on the table and I couldnt race him anymore so I lost.

Game 2: This game was really hard. He mulled to 5 cards and to make it even more bad for him I seized his brainstorm out of his hands. Then I played some creates and a choke. So he couldnt do that much against me.

Game 3: Cant remember that much of this game. I know he played some standstills and counterbalance. He even played nought, but I was to devastating with grips, snuff out, edict and chokes so everytime he had some good shit on the table, I had an answer. And then a stalker finished it.

6 - ID with solidarity

t4

half finals - merfolks 2-1

Game 1: 'Cause my deck is insane against merfolks I kept a stupid hand consisted of: 4 lands, ritual, seize and shade:laugh: I started with the ritual into seize and shade and thats why I won this game:laugh: Okay, I might have topdecked some goyfs and snuff out the game to win it.

Game 2: This game was stupid, he played f*cking thread and sowers all game long. In the end I got stomped by shade, stalker, goyf, sower ans cursecatcher:tongue:

Game 3: Not so complicated game, My creatures are bigger and faster than his and I play removal and hand disruption so I won.

finals - 1-2 ichorid

Game 1: He does what ichorid does, and that it winning very hard of eva green.

Game 2: He got the idiotest dredges in the world and I got a t2 jitte and goyf, so I stomped him.

Game 3: This was very exciting for me. He didnt had really good dredges and I played a plague on illusion and one on horror. In the end it only depended on one turn becuase I had a stalker with jitte and he was on 7 life, and he had some zombies. Too bad for me he dredged a zealot in the end, and killed me.

I was really happy with the side all day, edicts, jittes, plagues, chokes, grips and even needles helped me out in my mu's the day.

And I still dont know I scroll is good enough or not, so I keep him for a while in the deck. He helped me against merfolks and against goyf wars, but beside that I didnt saw the card that much.

What I want to people is, dont you ever cut shade for stupid things as putrid leech and nyxathid. They only make you slower, More vulnerable for random things like brainstorm( And then blok nixathid) and goyf(because its always bigger than leech) and there are way more other things that make them bad and shade good.

Shade was one of the best creatures all day, everytime I casted it, my oppo wanted to get rid of him as quick as possible. And if he couldnt, shade raced him to death.


That was all I wanted to say:cool:

PS: Sorry if my enligh typing is not so good. I'm not so good at typing that much:smile:

[fdiv_bug]

I played it on sunday and became 2th with the deck. There were 28 players with 6 rounds and a t4.

This was my list:

4xtombstalker
4xshade
4xgoyf
4xhippie

4xritual
4xsnuff out

4xthougtseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xsinkhole

3xcursed scroll

3xbayou
4xdelta
4xmire
4xwasteland
6xswamp

side:

2xdiabolic edict
2xjitte
2xpithing needle
3xkrosan grip
3xengineered plague
3xchoke
I like this list a lot, and thanks for the very good in-depth report. I love Cursed Scroll, but it seems like it might be kind of a "win more" card in this deck. For point removal of small guys, though, it might be awesome, so I dunno. I personally would prefer to run some more removal in the main -- most likely Maelstrom Pulse -- but when Cursed Scroll is online, it cleans up.


What I want to people is, dont you ever cut shade for stupid things as putrid leech and nyxathid. They only make you slower, More vulnerable for random things like brainstorm( And then blok nixathid) and goyf(because its always bigger than leech) and there are way more other things that make them bad and shade good.
I agree completely. Nyxathid works better in a more focused discard deck, not a disruption-into-beats deck like Eva Green, and while Putrid Leech is a good card, I think we've got much better options in Legacy, not the least of which is Nantuko Shade, as you say.


PS: Sorry if my enligh typing is not so good. I'm not so good at typing that much:smile:
Your English is way better than my Dutch, typed or otherwise. :smile:

[electrolyze]

Thanks for the reply,

About the scroll, as i said it is a test card. But until now it did some great things, players are scared to block my goyf because scroll wins the goyf war, he is good against merfolk, goblins and the hatebearers(or what they are called) like meddling mage, confidant, teeg, and many other creatures, and at least it can give you some extra reach against decks were you have to be quick or decks with much creature removal. It improves the late game of the deck i think.

[Tea]

Your removal count is in fact quite low. However maelstrom pulse is bit slow, so I have thought of -4 sinkhole, +4 diabolic edict putting 4 sinkhole into the SB. We weaken the control matchup, but we strengthen the aggro/aggro-control machtup. What do you think?

[fdiv_bug]

Your removal count is in fact quite low. However maelstrom pulse is bit slow, so I have thought of -4 sinkhole, +4 diabolic edict putting 4 sinkhole into the SB. We weaken the control matchup, but we strengthen the aggro/aggro-control machtup. What do you think?
I personally think that Sinkhole is essential to the deck's disruption suite. It puts the opponent on their back foot so bad that they're struggling to recover while you're dropping Tarmogoyfs and Hypnotic Specters and Nantuko Shades to rip their face off. And because of the relative low cost of our threats -- even Tombstalker is a two-drop late game -- we can continue to disrupt. I think that keeping them off their land count is more useful than killing an extra creature or two, but that's just my opinion.

All that said, I'd still probably board in some additional creature removal against aggro. So I guess what it boils down to is what you think your metagame contains, and how you want your main deck to look in facing it.

[Tea]

Another point is that snuff out can't hit dark confidant, thus you have no way to get rid of him save cursed scroll, but cursed scroll is the questionable card although I like it.

But I think you are right, that it depends on the metagame.

[coraz86]

Thanks for the reply,

About the scroll, as i said it is a test card. But until now it did some great things, players are scared to block my goyf because scroll wins the goyf war, he is good against merfolk, goblins and the hatebearers(or what they are called) like meddling mage, confidant, teeg, and many other creatures, and at least it can give you some extra reach against decks were you have to be quick or decks with much creature removal. It improves the late game of the deck i think.

I kind of agree with this, but I'm not sure Eva Green wants to see the late game. I ran Scrolls on Saturday, and they didn't do a whole lot for me. They helped a little, but they were either pitiful or win-more. I think, for the situations you mentioned, I'd rather have free spells like Contagion and Snuff Out. You deal with their Goyf or bear for free, then play something of your own; it's quite a swing in game state.

I do like that Scroll often gets under EE, since you have nothing else at 1 mana and non-Landstill decks often don't run Academy Ruins. Against blue decks without Academy Ruins, it's nice to have for when they deal with your creatures. I guess it depends on your meta--I'm on the fence about whether they belong in the deck, and I can't bring myself to definitively give them the boot or give them a slot.

[Mr.T]

I don't personally agree with the Cursed Scroll idea, i feel it is too slow for this deck, the same way that Maelstrom pulse is too slow for the deck. As far as creature removal for such decks like zoo and any other quick aggro, which is something Eva green seems to struggle with, I run 3 snuff out and 2 diabolic edict main.

here is a list that I have been running for a little bit now and have had success with.

4 Nantuko shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Diabolic Edict

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 bayou
4 Blooodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Smother
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
2 Reanimate
2 Krosan Grip

With Zoo gaining popularity and it being such a tough match up for this deck I am going to be -2 Reanimate -1 Smother -1 Tormod's Crypt +2 Engineered Explosives +2 Sun Droplet(Currently being tested not completed sold on this card yet).

[electrolyze]

@MR T.

I think your list looks strong for a aggro meta, I was tinkering with the idea of playing diabolic edict main also. I discovered its such a strong card against all the zoo, folk, threshold and even dreadstill decks when I played it in my side.

Only I dont think you should cut a tombstalker for a 22th land. I think 21 lands are enough and you certainly want to topdeck creatures consistently, I think if you cut one it can be a problem.


Again about scroll. The tourney I play sunday I only saw it 4 times and 1 time it won me the game, the other time it hepled me to win earlier before he could fully stabilize and control me. So i dont really know its worth it for the deck, thats why i want to test it some more.

Maybe I cut the scroll to a 2- off and play a 1- off edict, as the 5th removal in the deck. Than you dont get the scroll to early in the game, when its only good with a dark ritual. But somewhere in the middle of the game, that it can help you to deal with certain things.

There are still some more options I like to test main like, pithing needle, krosan grip(in a cb, dreadstill heavy meta), jitte(like mr. T), more removal(not pulse, I already tested it and didnt like it) and even more beaters, because against aggro its always a bit of a race and who has the biggest creatures I think.

Let me know you tested these things and what did you think of it, because i'm very curious about things that can make the deck better for different mu's and meta's.

[fdiv_bug]

I don't personally agree with the Cursed Scroll idea, i feel it is too slow for this deck, the same way that Maelstrom pulse is too slow for the deck.
While I agree completely that Maelstrom Pulse is slow, and could very well be argued that it's too slow for the deck as you say, its appeal to me isn't in its speed, but rather its versatility. It gives me a main deck answer to most any archetype's key cards, and can be swapped out for more effective answers -- Krosan Grip, Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict -- for games two and three. I've also found it to be quite useful as the last card played in a game to push my threats through. In my opinion, Eva Green is all about preventing the opponent from stabilizing, or destabilizing them if they get their business online, and I think Maelstrom Pulse is a great utility to that end.

[Bourgeoise]

@MR T.

I think your list looks strong for a aggro meta, I was tinkering with the idea of playing diabolic edict main also. I discovered its such a strong card against all the zoo, folk, threshold and even dreadstill decks when I played it in my side.

Only I dont think you should cut a tombstalker for a 22th land. I think 21 lands are enough and you certainly want to topdeck creatures consistently, I think if you cut one it can be a problem.


Again about scroll. The tourney I play sunday I only saw it 4 times and 1 time it won me the game, the other time it hepled me to win earlier before he could fully stabilize and control me. So i dont really know its worth it for the deck, thats why i want to test it some more.

Maybe I cut the scroll to a 2- off and play a 1- off edict, as the 5th removal in the deck. Than you dont get the scroll to early in the game, when its only good with a dark ritual. But somewhere in the middle of the game, that it can help you to deal with certain things.

There are still some more options I like to test main like, pithing needle, krosan grip(in a cb, dreadstill heavy meta), jitte(like mr. T), more removal(not pulse, I already tested it and didnt like it) and even more beaters, because against aggro its always a bit of a race and who has the biggest creatures I think.

Let me know you tested these things and what did you think of it, because i'm very curious about things that can make the deck better for different mu's and meta's.

A good way of analyzing this change in your deck would be to keep track of what card you replaced to put scroll in and when you are in a situation where you draw and play scroll. Ask yourself if the card scroll replaced is better or if scroll is better given the game state. My issue with scroll is that you need fairly specific conditions to make it hit every time, it is dependent on your hand where cards such as maelstrom pulse just blow shit up on the spot while costing less and hitting at least a turn sooner.

[nitewolf9]

I've tried Maelstrom Pulse in the main and was really impressed with it. Anwar has also told me that he was happy every time he drew it and rarely wanted it to be something else. The card is a bit mana intensive, but as a 2 or 3 of catch all answer it seems pretty good. You can get out from under a counterbalance lock, nail a plainswalkers from a landstill opponent, blow up lock pieces like chalice (which is pretty annoying at 2), sweep zombie tokens, kill Bob and opposing stalkers, etc. It's pretty strong and will sometimes be a 2+ for 1.


While I agree completely that Maelstrom Pulse is slow, and could very well be argued that it's too slow for the deck as you say, its appeal to me isn't in its speed, but rather its versatility. It gives me a main deck answer to most any archetype's key cards, and can be swapped out for more effective answers -- Krosan Grip, Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict -- for games two and three. I've also found it to be quite useful as the last card played in a game to push my threats through. In my opinion, Eva Green is all about preventing the opponent from stabilizing, or destabilizing them if they get their business online, and I think Maelstrom Pulse is a great utility to that end.

I think this post sums it up very nicely.

As for scroll I don't really know what my thoughts are. I tried it in earlier suicide decks like Red Death and Dead Guy Ale and was not very impressed due to how slow it was. It does give you some reach late in the game however, and helps against tribal (if you can "stabilize"), but I'm still kinda meh about it.

[jedi_gof]

why does everyone still insist on playing the manademandig shade? I mean it is almaot always at best a 4/3 and that at the cost of your tourn or having to kkep open the mana? Why not the leach(sorry, maybe my new fav. creature. 4/4 for G/B is great, and leaves oopen your mana for cooler things... nevermind the lifeloss, shouldnt be relevant in this deck plus at 4/4 it is bigger or as big as almost every creature in this format. To me it is often the gooyf 5-8, and better earlygame! What you say?

[Ascendant Evincar]

Alix and I were discussing this yesterday while reminiscing about new and exciting ways to ruin his life. Have you tried 2 shade 2 leech?

[NesretepNoj]

I run the same list as mentioned in the primer except that I have changed the three Seal of Primordium to Maelstrom Pulse. I have to agree with Dan and Anwar. Even though I haven't thoroughly tested it, it seems great and it's versatility is undeniable :smile:
I played it against 2 Land Belcher; in the first game, I used it to kill all his goblins, in game two I used it to blow up the Belcher...

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I ran the list from the primer yesterday at gencon and went 5 and 2 (had to drop cause my ride wanted to leave and I had no chance at top 8), and I have to say this deck is mean. I beat three stax(1 red, 2 Armageddon) decks, merfolk, and goblins. And I lost to Tempo Thresh (That top 8ed) and aggro loam. All in all it was a fun tournament.

[bio-dwarf]

I'am currently testing this build based on Eva Green,

DeathEva:

Creatures: (15)
3x Tombstalker
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf

Spells: (24)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate

Lands: (21)
1x Plain
3x Swamp
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland

SideBoard:
3x Duress
3x Krosan Grip
3x Choke
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Egineered plague

The 4x Snuff out are replaced by 4x Swords to Plowshares and the 3x Seal slots and 1x Tombstalker are replaced by 4x Vindicate.

This change makes the mana base a bit weaker then the original Eva Green build but in return uses 1 of the best spot removel spells in return.

I will soon go to some tournaments with this build and will post the results here.

I think the deck explains it self. So far I have some good test results but I am curious what you guys think about this build and it's sideboard.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[NesretepNoj]

Took the deck (primer version except Maelstrom Pulse over Seal of Primordium) for some tournament play for the first time this weekend. There's only one thing to say; I just love it.

First day I ended up third beating Enchantress 2-0, CounterSlivers 2-0, losing to CounterTopGoyf (Nassif NLU rip-off someting) 0-2, and beating Ichorid 2-0.

Second day (very small tournament) I went in first beating UW Landstill 2-1, Bomberman 2-1 and CounterTopGoyf 2-0.

Except for a massive brain fart (me blowing up my opponent's goyf, while having two on the board my self), Maelstrom Pulse seemed to be a great choice, plenty of times hitting a creature, to help the landwalkers hit the dome, and kill annoying Sowers (of course besides smashing naggers like CBalance, Elephant Grass, etc.).

PS. having two Snuff Out in hand, killing me opponent's two factories, in order to allow my goyf to hit home run (the turn before a Wrath of God) is just too much fun :laugh:

[Thoughtseizer]

I have carefully read this thread (took sooooo long), considered the pros and cons of both very able arguments and moreover, I have played this deck repeatedly; I agree with the majority that splashing in the third colour (white) is manifestly weak to do for this specific deck (if you play competitively).

Indeed, it is trite to say that when you splash in white you are weakening an already fragile mana base. The deck has so many strong options with powerful black & green cards that it is just fruitless and makes no logical sense to splash white for cards that are not game breakers and substantially weaken the mana base. Green and/ or black have equally sufficient cards to fill slots in this deck for what Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate do. Competitive play testing in the present metagame palpably solidifies this fact time and time again.

In my view, it is pretty ostensible that this is a tempo-aggro deck that utilizes time, power and efficiency to overwhelm opponents. Screwing around with a fragile (colour) mana base and compromising aggressive strategy while concurrently knowing that wastelands are heavily played in the Legacy metagame and you are embarking upon a recipe for disaster.

The original black/ green build is still the most optimal, efficient and versatile version of this deck and has proven to be same at both Gen Con and the Worlds to have more success than its three colour variant.

Seriously, and I say this objectively and with the greatest of respect; lose the STP and vindicates. If you need suggestions on what to replace them with see the original deck list for this deck or inquire accordingly. Cheers.

[beastman]

I honestly can't undestand why you guys aren't playing leech.
@thoughtsiezer: You use a lot of big words.

[BackDr0p]

@thoughtsiezer: You use a lot of big words.

Thesaurus anyone?

[Droxis]

I honestly can't undestand why you guys aren't playing leech.
@thoughtsiezer: You use a lot of big words.

Because between the seizes, snuffs, and fetchs leech's activity ability can be too much. Makes some troublesome match ups (namely anything that runs burn) that much harder to work with.

[electrolyze]

Because shade is way better. Not only he can be a lot bigger most of the time, he can actually race the opponent.

How can leech race an opponent is you have to pay 2 life the whole time? Think about it, that your opponents have creatures too that can beat. If they have a 2/2, You cant race him because you lose 4 life a turn on both sides then(this is just an example, I know you probably have more creatures then a leech. But again, the opponent also has more than a 2/2). And having 2 leeches is just as bad you can get, paying 4 life a turn is not funny for a deck that uses snuff out, 8 fetch and seizes.

[damionblackgear]

T8'ed with the Deck on Saturday,

The list I ran ran was definitely not what you all agree on but it worked on everything except burn and bad draws.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Goyf
4 Hypnotic Specter

1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unearth
4 Hymn

4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
2 Krosan Grip

1 Seal of Primordium

8 Fetches
8 Swamp
4 Bayou
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Pithing Needle
3 Jitte
4 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void

It ended up going a lot better than I though with a 3-1 record into T8 with the only loss coming from a Fae Goyf deck that used Ninja of the Deep hours (drew 10 lands in 12 turns... 2 Games in a row ?:| ). I did manage to beat burn which I figured would be a terrible matchup.

R1: Affinity - 2-0, When I sat down across from the 12 year old eh told me he was going to win because he was better than me. It was more of a lesson in manners than a Magic game.

R2: Fae Ninjas - 0-2, 2 lands in the opener... more on teh top of the deck. I almost got there until he played a Spellstutter on my hippie (2 Mutavaults). His Goyf stopped mine until sower took it and the 4 of them went to town on. Game 2 looked almost like game 1 but there was no Hippie.

R3: Burn - 2-1: Turn 1 I played Hippie. he got shocked. T2 I duressed him and played Oona's Prowler and uneath. The game ended soon after. Game 2. I beat him to 1. end of turn Bolt x2. On his turn he played chain bolt then fireblasted me. bob and fetches had done the rest. Game 3. again with the nuts, Fetch Rit Prowler, Pitch Goyf, unearth. Turn 2 Jitte. I one that game.

R4: Dragon Stompy: 2-0. I lost the roll and kept a hand with 2 Thoughseize a Hippe and a bob + lands. He doesn't have an explosive start and jsut palys Mountain. Which I had heard there was a lot of burn there so I was a little mad until I thoughtsiezed him to show Magus and Trinispere. I had 3 lands in hand so I took the Magus. On his next turn he played Ancient tomb and 3sphere. I played a fetch and passed the turn. he played nothing. I played the hippie and rode it bob and a later Goyf to the end. Game 2 I turned into mono Black... He never saw a creature make it to it's second turn.

I ended up losing 1st round of T8 to a Zoo player. To be fair to the deck I kept a 1st turn Hippie hand and didn't have a 2nd land or ritual (I was tired).

Just wanted to advocate for Prowler. It's got a bad matchup vs Dredge but I think it's safe enough to play around. It also Opens up for the sickest Opener that this deck can have at 7 cards (even if it has to be exact). Land, Rit, Rit, Prowler, Bob/Prowler, Any other Creature, uneath. You would have no hand but at the minimum you would have 7 Power on the field. With other abilities.

Sorry for going off the Beaten path. Just wanted to give it a spin.

[fdiv_bug]

T8'ed with the Deck on Saturday
`Grats, and thanks for the detailed report! (On a slightly separate note, I'm glad you taught that kid in R1 a lesson, even though odds are it won't stick and he'll blame bad luck or some such.)


4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Goyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
Interesting. I like Confidant, and I like the Prowler in conjunction with it, but I feel like almost any time a Tombstalker hits the table, it's game over. I'll have to test this, though, because I can see the potential in having such a fast pile of dorks.


3 Unearth
Why Unearth over Reanimate? Being able to grab something of your opponent's on occasion seems like it might be useful, and with the low CMC of your guys, I'd think the life loss wouldn't hurt too bad if you didn't have better options in another `yard.


4 Bitterblossom
What would you bring these in against? I ask out of simple ignorance, not to cast doubt on having these in your sideboard.

[damionblackgear]

Interesting. I like Confidant, and I like the Prowler in conjunction with it, but I feel like almost any time a Tombstalker hits the table, it's game over. I'll have to test this, though, because I can see the potential in having such a fast pile of dorks.


I definitely agree that Stalker has a huge effect on the game but I didn't want to flip him with Bob (which I'm not as worried about now) and I didn't know what to cut. I know most people would cut the PRowler because they don't like the way it looks but I loved seeing it most of the time. I will admit that the practice games with no SB vs Ichorid was extremely awk but, I just didn't play the Prowler unless I had to.

I would actually put Stalker in the board as a 3 if I had them. but that's due to the fact that a excluding goyf this deck folded to anything that dealt 2 damage to my team.


Why Unearth over Reanimate?

I forgot it hit other's yards as well... That's the only reason. Playing with Reanimate would make things like 1st turn Prowler + Stalker possible (at the 8 life cost) would be nutz but I think that it's low cost also made me happier when I flipped it to bob and new that it was only going to be 1 life.


What would you bring these in against?

I boarded them in vs the Dragonstompy deck and that was it. I figured it would be good vs thigns like thresh as well since it's an evasive dork a turn. I was thinking that it would be good since Goyf is a prominent win-con in a lot of decks and even if this hits late it turns into a forcefield. I would probably use Stalker or beater option here if I had something to sub here but I also didn't see a need for needle... EVER. So maybe I'd keep the blossom and cut the needle (or use something that killed creatures instead in the needle's place and cut the blossoms).


All in all I think I want 3 Stalkers in the board and extirpates as well. So I'd probably change it a little.

Main:

-3 Unearth (test)
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Seal
-1 Tomb
-2 Swamp

+3 Maelstrom Pulse (just seemed to be a better option as it kills creatures too. I'm Going to miss the instant speed.)
+3 Reanimate (test, but seems better when you can turn 1 their creature)
+3 Wasteland

Board:

-4 Bitterblossom
-4 Pithing Needle

+3 Tomb Stalker (or other evasive beater)
+2 Extirpate
+3 Something

[Clark Kant]

What do you guys think of going with a slightly slower, more midrange version of Eva Green that is nevertheless aggressive? Specifically by using Natural Order.

This is the list I have in mind...

4 x Bayou
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Forest
2 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Natural Order
2 x Smother
1 x Reanimate

It's not as slow as traditional Rock decks, actually, I wouldn't be surprised if on average, this list's clock isn't really any slower than Eva Green due to the meatier threats.

Do you think such a list has potential? What would you change in the list?

[miko]

do you really need stronghold?

[electrolyze]

I dont think that deck comes even close to eva green. Its totally not tempo and misses the cards that makes eva green, 'eva green'.

I think if you really want to play natural order so badly, You should post it in the, 'the rock' or 'natural order rock' thread. 'Cause it looks more like a rock variant than a suicide one.

[Thoughtseizer]

I dont think that deck comes even close to eva green. Its totally not tempo and misses the cards that makes eva green, 'eva green'.

I think if you really want to play natural order so badly, You should post it in the, 'the rock' or 'natural order rock' thread. 'Cause it looks more like a rock variant than a suicide one.

With respect to you Kant, I couldn't agree anymore.

[damionblackgear]

It seems as though people will start on an idea and get shot down because it's not traditional (Kant that is a Natural order rock list though. I saw you posted it in the normal rock section as well, good tech for getting a response). So what is everyone else trying and what's making you try it?

[Patrunkenphat7]

It seems as though people will start on an idea and get shot down because it's not traditional (Kant that is a Natural order rock list though. I saw you posted it in the normal rock section as well, good tech for getting a response). So what is everyone else trying and what's making you try it?

But it is traditional; it's a rather trational rock/natural order list. There is nothing wrong with it, it's just that more agressive strategies should be considered for Eva Green.
-----------------------------
My new creature team:
4 Tombstalker
4 Goyf
4 Hippie
2 Shade
1 Putrid Leech

This is a change from 3 Shade and 0 Leech. I like this minor change better thus far, and I was wondering if anyone else has had success with a combination of Leech and Shade. I might revert back to 3 Shade, I'm not sure yet.

[Nizmox]

Does anyone run berserk in Eva Green?

[Clark Kant]

You guys are right. I realize that this thread doesn't make sense for discussing that list after the fact. Sorry about that.

As for what made me consider Natural Order, and going for the slower but more bomby threat approach, I think it was mainly dissatisfaction with playing the same deck for 2+ years and also wanting to find a way around fizzling out against controllish decks. This deck has a tendency to explode out of the gates but if your opponent manages to survive to the midgame, it has a much tougher time against a lot of the meta. But I guess that's the whole point of Eva Green and a huge part of the deck's strength as well.

[beastman]

Does anyone run berserk in Eva Green?

No. It's not needed, and it takes up valuable resource denial slots.

[damionblackgear]

I'm wondering how people are treating pulse. Are more people playing K-grips/Seals or are people playing pulse?

I'm a little worried about Scepter locked from the game (although there are only 2 in my meta) and I can see where Kgrip/seal would make a an argument but I also see the ability to destroy almost everything being an factor as well.

I'm going to test the pulses tonight and see what I like more... but this will only be my second date with Eva.

[Esper3k]

Eva is can be fickle, but man is she fun!

If you're in a meta with Scepter and worried about it, I'd play the Seals.

However, I'd think that you should be able to disrupt that pretty early on with your discard regardless of if you're playing Seal or not.

[coraz86]

I'm wondering how people are treating pulse. Are more people playing K-grips/Seals or are people playing pulse?

I'm a little worried about Scepter locked from the game (although there are only 2 in my meta) and I can see where Kgrip/seal would make a an argument but I also see the ability to destroy almost everything being an factor as well.

I'm going to test the pulses tonight and see what I like more... but this will only be my second date with Eva.

It does depend on your meta; Seals hit a lot of problem children and pump Goyf, but they're Snare-able and don't hit planeswalkers or blockers. I like the versatility of Pulse, but I suspect that the Seal/Pulse slot is more of a taste issue than a quantifiable question of better/worse.

[damionblackgear]

After I started testing the pulses I discovered I didn't like them as much as the seals/grips. I'm going to test the deck a little more.

I ended up going 2-2 but I noticed when I shuffled game 2 of round 1 that my deck was 61 cards. normally, this is not a bad thing, but I didn't know what the extra was so... That kinda kills it a little.

[NesretepNoj]

I haven't thought it through myself yet. Does anyone have any ideas how the new fecthes will affect Eva Green?

I don't think the deck by itself will benefit from from them (except maybe adding an extra or two fetches ... I don't see any benefits from adding a green basic, as this deck always will see BB).

As I see it, they will only add to the other deck's consistency (by enabling them to fecth basics), hence worsen Wasteland (but on the other hand making Sinkhole a bit stronger).

My main concern is, will LD in legacy still be viable?

[coraz86]

I am going to buy a set of b/g fetches at the prerelease; I really want one basic forest in here so I don't get stuck holding Goyfs, Grips, etc. after a Wasteland. You can't do that at the moment, since you want all your fetches to be able to grab Swamps.

How would LD be less viable now? I guess it weakens Pithing Needle, but how often do you run it so you can shut off fetchlands anyway? If anything, enemy fetches might embolden some people to stretch their manabases (making people, say, more willing to play 4c Loam decks or Domain Zoo), in which case you could punish them even more harshly with LD.

[coraz86]

After I started testing the pulses I discovered I didn't like them as much as the seals/grips. I'm going to test the deck a little more.

I ended up going 2-2 but I noticed when I shuffled game 2 of round 1 that my deck was 61 cards. normally, this is not a bad thing, but I didn't know what the extra was so... That kinda kills it a little.

This might sound dumb, but have you considered Wickerbough Elder? I've noticed with Eva Green that sometimes I have trouble closing once I've established control, and a couple extra 4/4s would help. He also evades Counterbalance at :3::g: and can kill a lot of really annoying things. It's enough slower than Seal that I would rather go 2/2 than completely replace Seal, but it seems worth trying to me.

[XSivPSI]

I barely top 8'd a 30 something man tournament tonight with eva green.

The list:
4 tarmogoyf
3 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 seal of primordium
1 umezawa's jitte

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
6 swamp

board:
3 Pithing needle
3 Pernicious Deed
3 choke
3 engineered plague
1 umezawa's jitte
2 Krosan Grip

I was afraid of wastelands so I opted out of the white splash for vindicate at the last minute. Wastelands only mattered one game though and I was losing anyway so I probably should have stuck with white.

Round 1: Ugr counter top.
Game 1 - Slow hand, he countered lots of stuff then stole my tombstalker with sower and I lost.
Game 2 - another bad start, I don't remember much about this game but I lost to a trinket mage in the end.
0-2: 0-1-0

Round 2: UWr random stuff
This guy just started back after 13 years off and just decided to play 1.5 on a whim. His binder was pretty nice with a page of power and several playsets of duals and other $$$$$ cards. He took an old deck and dropped the banned stuff and replaced it with legal stuff. He ran moats, blood moon, Wrath of God, Jayemdae tome, disrupting scepter, StP, FoW, arcane denial, Counter spell, and baneslayer angel.

First two games I got my discard and LD on and flew over moats ftw. Played a 3rd for fun and he got control and won.

2-0; 1-1-0

Round 3 Door of Destinies elves

game 1 He dropped 4 mana elves and a door but kept drawing dead while i had 2 goyfs and either a stalker or a hipy.
Game 2 he mulled to 5 I think played a priest and I dropped a plague two consecutive turns and he scooped.
2-0; 2-1-0

Round 3 Ultimate walker. with visions instead of stand still

G1: he got off 3 visions and drew a ton with jace while stp'n and wog'n and EE'n my guys, then made 4 4/4 angles. I was at 27 from stp life and hard cast two snuff's but one got FoW'd and I took 12 for 3 turns and died.

G2-3: I found my discard spells and used them, and he didn't get enough answers to my stalkers, goyfs and hipies so I won those two games pretty easy.

2-1; 3-1-0

Round 5 vs ANT

I got paired down (he was 2-2-0)
Game 1 I got a great hand and played swamp-rit-hymn-rit-hipy and won. The next two games he combo'd off in my face after thoughtseizes both games, I hate combo...

1-2; 3-2-0

I got lucky and barely made top 8 (only 3-2 that made it) and got to play goblins. He got a nuts start g1 and I died. G2 I thought I had a good chance with deeds and plagues but I mulled to 5 trying to get lands and kept 5 with a swamp and a waste and the only other land I drew was several turns later and it was another waste so I didn't even get to put up a fight.

Anyway, I wish I had maelstrom pulse but I don't so I played the seals. They weren't that great and most of the time would have been a lot cooler as a stone rain, I mean vindicate.

[deadlock]

Do you Eva Green guys consider Gatekeeper of Malakir as an option for this deck? I only have expierence with TA, but to some extent the same rules apply to both decks.

[NesretepNoj]

Do you Eva Green guys consider Gatekeeper of Malakir as an option for this deck? I only have expierence with TA, but to some extent the same rules apply to both decks.
Even though it seems like a great card, I don't think it fits the deck's game plan. It is useless against combo and won't be able to put the control player (nor anyone else) on a clock after killing his creature (at least not on it's own). That being said, I haven't tested it, so it might work :)

Have anyone considered upping the fetch count now we have access to ZEN? Team America (in it's primer list) runs 9 fetches, but in that deck, they support the cantrip engine in addition to the roles it shares with this deck (fetching, thinning, powering stalker).

[DalkonCledwin]

Have anyone considered upping the fetch count now we have access to ZEN? Team America (in it's primer list) runs 9 fetches, but in that deck, they support the cantrip engine in addition to the roles it shares with this deck (fetching, thinning, powering stalker).

Actually I was thinking that the addition of the BG fetch would enable us to reduce the number of fetches we run while at the same time increasing the quality of those fetches.

[joey223]

dalkon i was thinking the same thing .

something like this just came to me:

4 b/g fetch
2 mire/delta
4 bayou
4 wasteland
5 swamp
2 forest

can someone recommend a better land base or does that look OK?
maybe too many bayous?

i'll chime in on the pulse vs. seal discussion:
give me pulse to take out ANY permanent except land (thats what sinkhole and wasteland are for).so versatile and i like that.cause lets face it,we are not going to make them discard EVERYTHING.things do squeak through.thats where pulse is good.

thoughts?

[Hanni]

You only need 1 Forest.

4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Bayou
4 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [5E] Forest (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

That's the manabase I use.

[Cidolfus]

Decklist I'm currently running:

Creatures (20)

x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Nantuko Shade
x4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
x4 Vampire Nighthawk
x4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (20)

x4 Sinkhole
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Dark Ritual
x4 Snuff Out

Lands (20)

x4 Swamp
x4 Bayou
x4 Polluted Delta
x4 Bloodstained Mire
x4 Wasteland

[lorddotm]

Decklist I'm currently running:

Creatures (20)

x4 Tombstalker
x4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
x4 Vampire Nighthawk
x4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (20)

x4 Sinkhole
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Dark Ritual
x4 Snuff Out
x4 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands (20)

x4 Swamp
x4 Bayou
x4 Polluted Delta
x4 Bloodstained Mire
x4 Wasteland

[Pomaxx]

i am going to run this homebrew next week. any advices are welcome.
(but i prefer comments like: wow. insane tech)
my take on B/G has gotten some fresh blood from Zendikar obviously and first i wanted to squeeze in Hexmage/Dark Depths too, but i am not convinced right now. have a look yourself:

Critters (18):

4xTarmogoyf
4xConfidant
4xVampire Nighthawk (Removal, Evasion, Lifegain. its the swiss army knife. i like him a lot)
3xGatekeeper of Malakir (Removal on a stick. basically card advantage, as you get a critter and remove one of theirs. you may even target yourself versus Dredge to remove bridges)
3xNantuko Shade


Spells(21)
4xDark Ritual
4xSinkhole
4xHymn to Tourach
4xThoughtseize
2xUmezawas Jitte (equip on Nighthawk, enjoy)
3xMaelstrom Pulse


Manabase(21)
usual distribution with new G/B Zendikar Fetchlands and one additional forest

Sideboard:
3xLeyline otV
3xChoke
3xE.Plague
3xPerish

not sold on the remaining slots

[Hanni]

@ Cidolfus and lorddotm

I really like that list. I'd cut 1 Maelstrom for 1 basic Forest, but other than that... really nice build.

[hebrewhammer]

I went to the dual for duals tourney in vestal this saturday. got top 8 with my deck:

spells:
thoughtsieze x4
sinkhole x4
darkritual x4
snuff out x2
hymn to tourach x4
maelstrom pulse x3

creatures:
gatekeeper of malakir x3
tombstalker x4
tarmogoyf x4
hypnotic specter x4
nantukoshade x2

land
polluted delta x4
bayou x3
wasteland x4
verdiant catacombs x4
swamp x5
forest x1


just wanna say the whole forest thing sucked always needed it to be a swamp in anything cut a fetch for forest. probably not going to run forest again wastelands not too big of a deal. Also gatekeeper is the man so good won me tons of games best addition of the deck thus far

[burek]

That's funny, I really liked the Forest when I ran it at my last tourney. It's cool against PoP, as protection against Wasteland and Blood Moon effects (if you see them coming).

[Lord_Cyrus]

In extensive testing, this deck has been amazing for me. I feel like Eva Green is coming to the next level, and with a few small pushes could easily be brought to solid Tier 1 status. Drawing from many of the ideas in this thread, here is my current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [10E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [8E] Choke


Going into the testing, I knew that Gatekeeper was the real deal, and definitely playable. I was less sure about Bloodghast, especially in a "balls-to-the-wall" deck like this. So far, it has been far more than just "cute" and definitely wins tons of games. Bloodghast gives the kind of broken inevitability that this deck has always needed, turning top-decked lands into a new army of dudes and more beats to the face. It also enables superior cards like Deed which seem designed to clear the field for angry hasty Ghasts back off a popped fetchland.

I think there are still a few issues with this list, however. Pulse has been mediocre to good, overall playable but not too exciting. I'm not sure it needs to be. Snuff Out feels like a relic from the old version of the deck, not enough copies to be effective, and the high life cost seems to go against the new "long game" mentality that Bloodghast brings to the deck.

Thoughts/Suggestions? Give this deck a try, and see for yourself the power that the new creature base brings... you will love it, I promise.

[kikkofrio]

Why not 2 reanimate in Pulse slot?

[Skeggi]

the high life cost seems to go against the new "long game" mentality that Bloodghast brings to the deck.
You're dropping Hypnotic Specter? For that? I think Hypnotic Specter is way better at the long game than Bloodghast. Keeping your opponent in topdeck mode is essential.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Why not 2 reanimate in Pulse slot?

I think you mean the Snuff Out slot. This seems like a fairly good idea, I might also consider Animate Dead or Smother. I've also been thinking more and more about maindecking some Pernicious Deeds since they play so damn well with Tombstalker and Bloodghast.

@Skeggi

Don't get me wrong, i really like my Hyppies. I wouldn't own 4 if I didn't. However I think you may be looking at this from the wrong angle. When I played Hyppies, they were good at locking the opponent into topdeck mode - sometimes. More often they ate some removal and I didn't get more that 1 swing at the most.

Bloodghast does something different. He improves YOUR topdeck mode by turning every otherwise useless land drop into creatures on the board, ready to swing. He laughs at WoG, Deed and Explosives all day long. Sure, he can eat a Plowshare like any other creature in this deck, but think about it - that is the best removal spell in the format, and you forced your opponent to use it on a 2/1 creature (!!). During my playtests this has happened shockingly often; Bloodghast eats a sword or Path, and consequently Tombstalker or Tarmo gets away free to win the game. In my mind, that proves just how broken these guys really are.

If you are in a combo or landstill-heavy meta, hyppie might still be the better call. However I will continue to play Bloodghast as I find him to be incredibly useful as a must-answer 2 drop against all sorts of decks. If you haven't tried him yet, give it a shot. I think you will be surprised by the results.

[coraz86]

In extensive testing, this deck has been amazing for me. I feel like Eva Green is coming to the next level, and with a few small pushes could easily be brought to solid Tier 1 status. Drawing from many of the ideas in this thread, here is my current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [10E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [8E] Choke


Going into the testing, I knew that Gatekeeper was the real deal, and definitely playable. I was less sure about Bloodghast, especially in a "balls-to-the-wall" deck like this. So far, it has been far more than just "cute" and definitely wins tons of games. Bloodghast gives the kind of broken inevitability that this deck has always needed, turning top-decked lands into a new army of dudes and more beats to the face. It also enables superior cards like Deed which seem designed to clear the field for angry hasty Ghasts back off a popped fetchland.

I think there are still a few issues with this list, however. Pulse has been mediocre to good, overall playable but not too exciting. I'm not sure it needs to be. Snuff Out feels like a relic from the old version of the deck, not enough copies to be effective, and the high life cost seems to go against the new "long game" mentality that Bloodghast brings to the deck.

Thoughts/Suggestions? Give this deck a try, and see for yourself the power that the new creature base brings... you will love it, I promise.

I like what Bloodghast brings to the table, but did you not miss Bob or any other sort of more active card advantage?

Also, what's your game plan against Zoo? I typically run Jitte for that, but it's been hit or miss for me. Pernicious Deed is nice (possibly my favorite card ever), but it strikes me as being too easy to play around if you don't have a Tombstalker down.

[yankeedave]

Hey Ya’ll
So, I have been working with Eva Green since it first debuted and have played a lot of different versions. I am currently thinking of changing the way I play this, by moving away from the LD side of the deck and making some changes. So far, I am looking at a couple of configurations, and was hoping you guys would help me out a little!

Right, looking at my first configuration, I am thinking of dropping Sinkhole for Pernicious Deed in the MD. I have also dropped Nantuko Shade, as I want to be using my mana late game, and I know all the arguments against this, but it is a preference thing. I feel Gatekeeper of Malakir is a really nice bit of removal, but not a great beater, so for now he is a 4 of, but not more. I have also dropped a Hyppie, as I feel they aren’t as strong in my meta.

Eva Green v1.1

Lands - 20
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
5 Swamp

Creatures - 19
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Hypnotic Specter

Artifacts - 2
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Instants - 7
4 Dark Ritual
2 Snuff Out
2 Smother

Enchantments - 4
3 Pernicious Deed

Sorceries - 8
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard - 15
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

By moving the Deeds to the MD, I have had room to put the Leylines back into the SB. I am also thinking of running Diabolic Edict in the MD instead of Snuff Out but I am not sure, when I already have the Gatekeepers. Any ideas/criticisms are welcome and would be appreciated. I felt that the Deeds MD help against the Counter-Top matchup and lets me clear the way for my Tombstalker to beat face. Also, it really hurts Zoo and Merfolk game 1.

I am also messing with a build that is very different again. This one has Dark Confidant and Sensei’s Divining Top as well as some other changes. Please see below:

Eva Green v1.2

Lands - 20
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
5 Swamp

Creatures - 19
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

Artifacts - 4
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Instants - 9
4 Dark Ritual
2 Snuff Out
3 Smother

Sorceries - 8
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard - 15
4 Choke
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

I have moved my Sweeper back to the Sideboard here and have chosen to ignore the Dredge matchup in hopes of either dodging it or just getting lucky! Once again, with this build, the Sinkholes have been dropped as have the Hyppies. I feel they are the weakest remaining card in the deck, and this allows me a much more aggressive build. I am nervous of running Tombstalker and Bob in the same deck, but the Tops should help with that. Thoughts/comments are also requested for this build too?

[jandax]

Eva Green v1.2

Lands - 20
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
5 Swamp

Creatures - 19
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

Artifacts - 4
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Instants - 9
4 Dark Ritual
2 Snuff Out
3 Smother

Sorceries - 8
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard - 15
4 Choke
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip


My buddy has similar lists to these two, but 1.2 is better IMHO. Only slight changes are really necessary to compare the two, like loosing a dual or swamp for the 4th Wasteland (wasteland is counted as a mana producing spell, to me) and moving three deeds main deck in lieu of one Top and the two Snuff Outs. Four Bobs is definitely the way to go. No questions. Leylines go back in the board, if your meta has a bit of ANT/Dredge/etc to worry about. Otherwise, the replaced Snuffs/top can sit on the bench.

I like these lists, and have also found that moving from the LD package has benefits.

[Jelmerz77]

I finished top 8 last Sunday at the Dutch Nationals, my run ended in the quarter final. 138 people attending.

I played the following list:

4 bayou
4 swamp
1 forest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
3 snuff out
4 sinkhole
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
4 tombstalker
4 vampire nighthawk
4 tarmogoyf
3 gatekeeper of malakir
2 umezawa's jitte

side
4 choke
4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
3 perish

Since the dutch meta shifted more and more away from blue infested decks the need for Hypnotic Specter became less and less. That is why I decided to replace them with the Vampire Nighthawk. The Lifegain saved my ass a couple of times as well as the Gatekeeper, which also saved a few matches for me.

The only thing that I want to change is probably the 3 Perish in the Side. I put them there because I was expecting a lot of Zoo and other green critters, but in the end I didn't encounter that at all. Thinking about replacing them with Extirpate's since they can be used more ways. (LD/HD/anti Combo)

J.

[JadeOberg]

I'm new to Eva Green but really like the idea of land destruction within this build. Splashing white for vindicate in place of pulses seemed like the obvious choice for my preference. Has anyone had any success with this? I understand opening up white makes this look more like Rock, but I think the deck has lot more options with the vindicate. List I'm currently testing

4x Goyf
3x Tombstalker
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir


4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sink Hole
4x Vindicate
2x Smother

4x Wastland
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
8x Fetches on color
2x Swamp

Insight? Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Myfz]

If going white why dont use swords to plowshares instead of smother ?

[JadeOberg]

i was thinking it makes better use of dark ritual

[Myfz]

Vindicate is essentially the same as Maelstrom Pulse (which also sucks, but doesn't stretch the mana base by adding another color) and it's bad for the same reasons: it's slow as balls and it's not really worth its cost since you should ideally be playing a fat creature by turn 3.

I'll have to disagree. I have found Maelstrom Pulse to be a saviour in many situations. Mostly against permanets sticking that can couse us alot of trouble i.e Counterbalance. We don't have any maindeck answer for Counterbalance if it resolves. Ofcourse this changes when we are able to get access to Krosan grip in the sideboard.

Also against other decks playing black where Snuff Out is dead, it gives us a chance to hit their stalkers or other threats.

I do agree on it being slow. But i have found it to be good enough to maindeck.

[Schembo]

I just won 18 players legacy tourney with following list.

Creatures (18)

x4 Tombstalker
x3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
x3 Vampire Nighthawk
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Bloodghast

Spells (22)

x4 Sinkhole
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x4 Thoughtseize
x4 Dark Ritual
x2 Snuff Out
x2 Maelstrom Pulse
x2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (20)

x1 Forest
x4 Swamp
x3 Bayou
x3 Polluted Delta
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x4 Verdant Catacombs
x4 Wasteland

We played 5 rounds swiss and i got record 5-0. I Won against deadguy ale, agro elf, mono red sligh, agro loam and tempo *****.

Jitte with bloodghast was hilarious. Alone win sligh game and 1 round against tempo ***** for me. Ghast got couple times pyroclasm etc but it just keeps going and goin and going....:tongue:

[zalachan]

Nice decklist Schembo. I like the interaction between Bloodghast and Jitte. Were the numbers on Gatekeeper and Tombstalker good for you or would you cut one stalker for keeper? What was your SB? Post pls.

[Myfz]

How do you guys handle the Dark Depth combo ? lost 1-2 to it yesterday. My only out to it is two Gatekeeper of Malakir or my discard. He was running a blue list with CB,Daze and FoW as protection. And also Dark Confidants.

EDIT: Is it worth bringing in EP naming vampires ?

Here is the list i have been running for some time now.

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 marsh flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 forest

Sideboard
3 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed

It was a crappy night overall. went 1-3. Lost round one to Ichorid 1-2 just to met the next Ichorid deck. Lost 1-2 there to. Then bye in third and lost to Marit Lage with 1-2. I should say i played Malakir in the last game but he had Daze on top with his CB and countered it. Just a bad night, i often Finish in the top 4 and there are about 14-24 people each week.

I've been thinking to skip the Deed and the third Jitte in the board for 2 extirpates, becouse graveyard based seems to pop up more and more and it can still be useful against other decks.Or maybe i'll Play Crypts,relics or 2 edicts or smother in those two slots.

I'm also starting to see more and more black decks and i hate when having Snuff Out as a dead card. Been thinking about Smother or Edict in its place but everytime i get this idea it's just bites be back for not being able to cast it for free.

[fallenphoenix]

Spinning Darkness (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/23.html), Contagion (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/4.html) or Sickening Shoal (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/82.html) might be considerable, but none of these are good vs Goyf.

Isn't Putrid Leech worth consideration over Shade?

Bet it has been discussed before :)

[Schembo]

Nice decklist Schembo. I like the interaction between Bloodghast and Jitte. Were the numbers on Gatekeeper and Tombstalker good for you or would you cut one stalker for keeper? What was your SB? Post pls.

My sb in last tourney was:

x3 Choke
x4 Perish
x3 Engineered plague
x3 Krosan grip
x2 Tormod's Crypt

I was waiting couple more zoo's/epic elves with progenitus so i cutted 1 relic for 1 more perish. Otherwise my sb is pretty usual.

I might consider to swap 1 stalker for keeper. Although every stalker i draw was able to get on board.

Here's link to finish mtg web site where i posted my tourney report (If you like to babelfish it, language is finnish) and u can look what other decks there was.

http://vaihdetaan.kapsi.fi/forums/index.php/topic,60916.msg236052.html#msg236052
http://vaihdetaan.kapsi.fi/forums/index.php/topic,60916.msg236082.html#msg236082

KALA = Merfolk

[nodahero]

I just went 4-0-1 with this deck tonight. The draw was the 5th round ID. I dropped one game all night.

Overall I think this deck is very good and has been made better by Vampire Nighthawk. The vampire is an awesome tool to offset the loss of life from such a large portion of our deck while doubling as a semi-targetable removal spell in a pinch. I also ran 3 Gatekeeper with a 4th postboard. I swapped out the Hyppies for Nighthawks and was very happy.

[fdiv_bug]

I just went 4-0-1 with this deck tonight. The draw was the 5th round ID. I dropped one game all night.

Overall I think this deck is very good and has been made better by Vampire Nighthawk. The vampire is an awesome tool to offset the loss of life from such a large portion of our deck while doubling as a semi-targetable removal spell in a pinch. I also ran 3 Gatekeeper with a 4th postboard. I swapped out the Hyppies for Nighthawks and was very happy.
`Grats on your finish! Would you be willing to share the list you ran with us? I'm keen to see how the changes you mention affect the overall build.

[dyzzy]

I haven't touched my Eva Green deck since before Zen, but it seems like the majority of people are running Vampire Nighthawk and Gatekeeper of Malakir now. But what are the best things to take out for them? It seems like Hippie and/or Bob, but I really have a raging hard-on for both of them (mostly I just really want to keep using the promo foil Hippies I bought just for this deck)... would it be feasible to replace Shade? It would probably help if I posted my list, I'll get to it when I'm not about to fall asleep.

On another note, if I don't have Pulses (which I can probably get if I really tried), is Putrefy an adequate replacement?

[Unknown2]

Hyppies are great, I would never cut them, they are basically a must-answer against most decks, (especially control).

Shades, I cut entirely in favour of Nighthawk. and I cut the two Reanimates I was playing for 2 gatekeepers

[Arsenal]

I think Pulse took the place that was previously occupied by Seal of Primordium/Pithing Needle. I assume that if you're unable to acquire Pulses, Seal/Needle would suffice?

[Illissius]

I think once you start adding cards like Vampire Nighthawk, the deck is no longer Eva Green. And the fact that making these kinds of changes makes the deck suck less in your metagame illustrates that the deck isn't viable in your metagame. If your metagame needs slow, controllish, anti-aggro cards, then you should play a deck with those kinds of cards in it. Not a hyper-aggressive deck like Eva Green.

[keys]

I think once you start adding cards like Vampire Nighthawk, the deck is no longer Eva Green. And the fact that making these kinds of changes makes the deck suck less in your metagame illustrates that the deck isn't viable in your metagame. If your metagame needs slow, controllish, anti-aggro cards, then you should play a deck with those kinds of cards in it. Not a hyper-aggressive deck like Eva Green.

Since when was Hypnotic Specter hyper aggressive?

[nodahero]

My list was:
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hymm to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Snuff Out
3 tombstalker

SIDE
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hyppnotic Spectre
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gatekeepr of Malakir

I realize my sideboard seems very bizarre and that is primarily due to a lack of play testing with this variant of the deck and I was unsure how the Nighthawks would fair. Personally I find Hyppie to be a worse version of Nighthawk in most scenarios. I found Hyppies biggest advantage to be the pain it caused for storm decks but in testing the slightly lower strength against storm was made up for by deathtouch (my meta has very little combo).

My matchups in order were
Round 1- DDay Tendrils 2-0
Round 2- (no notes and I forgot) 2-0
Round 3- anti creature variant of Eva Green 2-0
Round 4- Affinity 2-1 (apparently ornithoper with triple plating is good I learned)
Round 5- ID against Merfolk

[dyzzy]

This is my current list after a couple quick changes, though I'm still trying to figure out where to put a couple of things...

Land (20):
3x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland

Creatures (20):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tombstalker

Spells (20):
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
2x Snuff Out

SB:
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Engineered Plague
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x ??

So I'm wondering how to fit in Gatekeeper and Maelstrom Pulse. Like I said, I would prefer to keep Hippie, but I'm thinking the best option might have to be something like -4 Hippie, -1 Stalker, +2 Gatekeeper, +3 Pulse.

Also, any suggestions for SB? What should I take out, what should I put in?

[coraz86]

I suspect it's largely personal taste, but I much prefer the versatility of Leyline in Eva Green, since in a pinch Eva Green can cast it. It helps against decks like Landstill (Crucible, Academy Ruins, Eternal Dragon) and Aggro-Loam (LftL, Terravore, Crusher) that can slow-roll you and win around one-shots like Ravenous Trap and Crypt, but have a more difficult time working around. That's been my experience, at least.

I've also never been comfortable putting Deeds in an aggro deck like this (and Pernicious Deed has been my favorite card ever printed since it came out, so it pains me to ever exclude it from a deck).

I guess if you're really worried about Dredge, drop the Ravenous Traps, use those two slots and the two open slots for a set of Leylines, and drop the Deeds for Engineered Explosives. EE at zero kills Bridge tokens, and then at 1 or 2 kills most of the other things you're worried about.

Also--and again, this is personal taste, but it's worked well for me so far--I reflexively run a Volrath's Stronghold in any deck I put Swamps in. (It irritates the kids at FNM who are younger than my Strongholds are, but fuck them; they can stop whining and start playing with good cards.) I'd drop a Marsh Flats for it, but at least half the games I've lost in tournaments with this deck I lost directly to Stifle, so that might be my paranoia talking.

[nodahero]

I have recently recieved a message and I think the questions posed in it are something that should be discussed in depth.

In the list I posted above you will notice a lack of Sinkholes in my deck and the inclusion of Duress in its place. It has been my experience lately that Sinkhole is one of the worst cards in this deck for reasons similar to that of its poor performance in Team America.

Sinkhole has been under performing as of late for me because of its poor power against decks like Zoo, Merfolk, Combo (as a whole), and Landstill. I realize the value put forth against a deck like zoo where it needs specific lands to function at full power or the value of killing an Academy Ruins against Landstill but it still seems subpar in comparison to a card like Duress.

Duress gives us the ability to do significantly more than Sinkhole does.

Duress can still Jitte, Sylvan Library, burn, or point removal from Zoo or its kin. Duress can rip a vial, Jitte, Force, Daze, or Standstill from Merfolk. Duress can single handily win you the game against storm by ripping out AdNos, IGG, DDay, or any number of other cards. Duress has infinite options against Landstill.

Another reason I have found Duress to be superior to Sinkhole is because of the ability to do more off of a turn 1 Dark Ritual.

I think the other primary reason for Duress over Sinkhole is because of the consistent attack on one specific part of the game. While Duress can be dead if your opponent is in Top Deck mode personal expiernce has found Sinkhole to be more consistently dead due to a lower curve in this format.

The other question posed to me is in regard to Hyppie in the board. As mentioned in the prior post my sideboard was tossed together based off of prior experience with similar decks. The main reason I had Hyppie in the board was for against combo. In the main the 3 Gatekeepers are nearly useless against combo along still Snuff Out but I still wanted a clock so I audibled into Hyppie as more anti combo cards.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I would like to attend several of the Legacy 5k's this year, and I have all the cards for this deck. Is this deck still competitive at the top tables? I feel like it wouldn't be that great against Zoo which is becoming quite common.

[Morgothar]

Hello everyone,

I started playing this deck a short time. My feelings are very positive, but I don’t like Nantuko shade. I believe that this creature is too slow. After I trying to replace her with putrid leech, but this card doesn’t convinced me. The question I want to do is this: could I replace her with 3 sensei’s divining top?

This is my deck-list:

MANA: 21 slots

4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
6 swamp
4 wasteland
3 bayou

BEATERS: 13 slots

4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
1 nantuko shade

SPELLS: 26 slots

4 suff out
4 thoughtseize
4 dark ritual
3 sensei’s divining top
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 maelstrom pulse

SIDEBOARD

3 engineered plague
3 extirpate
2 duress
2 umezawa’s jitte
2 engineered explosives
2 perish
1 tormod’s crypt

[Myfz]

Hello everyone,

I started playing this deck a short time. My feelings are very positive, but I don’t like Nantuko shade. I believe that this creature is too slow. After I trying to replace her with putrid leech, but this card doesn’t convinced me. The question I want to do is this: could I replace her with 3 sensei’s divining top?

I wouldn't play leech in the shade spot or mather of fact not at all. I have found that a split between Gatekeeper of Malakir and Nantuko Shades to be the best couse Gatekeeper Malakir have the ability to give us a main decked answer to many problem that Snuff Out can't handle before sideboarding.

I would never drop Nantuko Shades completely. They pose a great threat when droped and can take battle with almost any creature an opponent can play.

Why do you want to include Sensei's Divining Top ? They dont fulfil the purpose of this deck. Sensei's Divining Top might be good with the inclusion of Dark Confidant to try to minimize the life loss otherwise i find its better to play Umezawa's Jitte in its spot.

I also find the number of creatures in your deck to be to small. I would't run less than 15-16 creatures to have some certainty of beating your opponent before he can recover from our disruption package.

[Mr. Durden]

As a newcomer to this deck, I find myself wihtout many of the cards. Would putrefy be a suitable paupaer's replacement for maelstrom pulse, or is the enchantment destruction too valuable?

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw the same question answered half a page up.

[Purgatory]

Regarding creatures: Has anyone tested Ashenmore Gouger? Seriously. It's pretty damn huge. Especially on turn 1 or 2, either following or being followed by Thoughtseize/Hymn.

I don't play this deck myself, but my brother does, so I've played quite a bit against this one. I find the Gouger to be a lot scarier than both Hyppie and Shade that early in the game, since it will beat for 4 no matter what I do about my opponents manabase with Stifle/Wasteland, and it won't die to a single Bolt.

Try it, at least for laughs.

[Morgothar]

Hi,

I specify that I don’t reply to insist, but because in the previous post I haven’t argued well.




I would never drop Nantuko Shades completely. They pose a great threat when droped and can take battle with almost any creature an opponent can play.

Why do you want to include Sensei's Divining Top ? They dont fulfil the purpose of this deck. Sensei's Divining Top might be good with the inclusion of Dark Confidant to try to minimize the life loss otherwise i find its better to play Umezawa's Jitte in its spot.

To be honest I had already played Eva Green long ago, when it was a Tier1 and I had won a few tournaments, though not very important. The reason because I no longer had played it concerned the problem of drow engine.
My return to Eva Green and the question of sensei's divining top is almost casual. Before I played Dead-Eva with 1 tombstalker, 4 dark confidant & 2 sensei’s divining top, but I realized that Dark confidant, since the Legacy has become more similar to EXT, is a card not suitable for black based, because it is incapable of being a finisher, &, if it can 'be rightly considered a win-more, makes the deck capricious and breakable.

When I realized this, My deck had become an Eva Green with vindicate, then the transition to a "real" Eva Green was inevitable. The reason because I think that sensei's divining top is better than Nantuko Shade in this deck, is in some capacity it has shown:

1_ Although decreasing beaters, It helps to find others, or removals, or fetchlands: they have too many cards to give up.

2_ It makes less difficult to play multiple copies of tombstalker.

3_ It helps the deck to handle bad hands and the maelstrom of pulse drawback.

4_ It allows better use of wastelands.

5_ It helps to support the major problem of this deck: the Tombstalker-dependence.

Nantuko Shade can help in late game, when the deck has many lands, but sensei's divining top is stronger on the same thing and has more probability to elude mana-flood and mana-denial.

Nantuko shade has more important problems:

1_ Is not true that it can support the beaters of the opponent, neither Tarmogoyf, becouse it starts to be able from the fifth turn. That turn the game is already decided.

2_ Big problem: it isn’t redundant. This feature is becoming more important for the creatures of the metagame: Nantuko Shade is often circumvented.

I understand that sensei seems not suitable for aggressive deck like this, but I think it merits a minimum test and great attention.

I like Gatekeeper of Malakir; I think I'll try this list:

MANA: 21 slots

4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
6 swamp
3 bayou
4 wasteland

BEATERS: 14 slots

4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
2 gatekeeper of malakir

SPELLS: 25 slots

4 snuff out
4 thoughtseize
4 dark ritual
2 sensei’s divining top
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 maelstrom pulse

SIDEBOARD

4 extirpate
3 engineered plague
2 perish
2 duress
2 engineered explosives
2 umezawa’s jitte

[Aleksandr]

I am testing this build right now. I build it yesterday an played few games on... *cough* MWS.. so maybe my testing is not that relevant. But it went somehow well, so I share the list.

4x Bayou
7x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs (six fetches only = less care of Stifles, also Forest is hawt against Waste-lock)

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
2x Spiritmonger (really... well, he's the biggest swine next to Goyf, there's no other like him*)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Snuff Out

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Unmask (yeah...)

sb:
3x Extirpate (crap, but I like it against thresh-like decks to get rid of their only win-con, it also "counters" Mystical Tutor into AdN)
3x Choke
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Engineered Plague

What was really funny are Unmasks. Together with Seize or even Ritual+Hymn/Sinkhole they can form a killing turn one situation, that no opponent can easily recover from (not talking about Dredge, of course). Yes, I lose my hand, but if it brings me victory, who cares... :really:

* on Spiritmongers: They can be SDTs, as Top somehow have the same role (dig for beaters, where Monger himself is the beater.) Otoh, I don't like that many utility, also SDT maybe needs more fetches. Deck is now full of answers, threats and disruption in a correct ratio (imo), so I dont find it useful to screw for cards, when I can rather topdeck them. In fact, most of the times I wish for beater, not discard/removal, as there are 12/8 of it.

Monger is not only big (maybe biggest dude except for the AggroLoam swine-list), but it can be easily cast with Ritual even if we have only Forest, Swamp, Wasteland. With Unmask I don't fear Daze/StP that much, so I can try this even against Tundra.dec.

Otoh he has no evasion (but regenerates like champion and laughs at Terror**/Snuff Out/Smother) and the additional mana, moreover green, makes him a bit more complicated to cast in comparison to his contenders like Grinning Demon (same 6/6, but drawback is terrible) or Plague Sliver (more a metagame call, than a real aspirant...)

** Yeah, I know that no one plays Terror.. :-)

I know that there's no other creature like Goyf/Stalker and I don't wanna play all those usual - each of them has its own pros and cons, thousand times studied and discussed: e.g. Specter flies and has utility, but is mere 2/2, Shade becomes good in the middle to late game, etc. In terms of "answer me or lose", Spiritmonger is the best card for the remaining two slots, imho. It can win games in three attacks (ok, some fetch must happen) what no other kritter (sans lucky Hypnotic Psecter) can.

Deck needs life gain seriously, but with 10 stupidos only, I don't find Jitte to be good. Most of the time there will be no one to bear it, namely if I cut Mongers in favor of the named Jitte. Maybe Unmasks are overkill, so I think about trying 2/2 SDT/Jitte split, Unmask keeping in sb for combo match.

Is Ravenous Baloth an option? I know that he sucks, but I don't wanna die to crappy decks with Lava spike in them... Finks are maybe better, as they cost one mana less and also their utility is better, but 4/4 or 3/2... IDK.

I think I try the SDT/Jitte version. But I will miss the Unmasks... :-(
It's a question of "tempo vs. control". Advice me, please.

PS: I build it with no real meta in my mind. Our playgroup consists of about twenty people and most of the time no two decks are same.
PPS: I am 99% sure that the 2/2_SDT/JTT version is better against unknown field, because Unmask is great in mainly control or combo environment... and there is no metagame without some portion of aggro. So is this just a question of metagame, or are maindeck Unmask really a nonsense?

thx in advance