Getting better at Legacy?

[Versus]

So, I scrubbed again. Yeah, I made some play mistakes. Yeah, I had some bad luck with my draws, but mostly I just had no idea how the decks I was playing against fuctioned. At one point during an Ichorid matchup I had Chalice set at 0, Chalice set at 1, and Needle naming Shaman. Needle naming Shaman??! Yeah, I thought it was Breakfast. I was totally outplayed. So I brought in Crypts and Kegs. I was able to play an early Keg which I kept at 0. Of course he never made Bridge tokens that game and took me down with some */* guy who's name I can't even recall. You see the problem? You can read through the threads here in DTB and Established, but you can only gleen so much from Primers. So, what else can you do besides actual experience?

Say you don't have access to MWS (it's a long story, but I don't have reliable internet at my apt), an extremly limited scene where you live, and only one other person you know who plays Legacy? What could you do to better prepare for what you're going to be up against when you are able to play out?

I'm assuming MWS, play testing partners, and weekly tournaments are what you all do, but what else is there? Anyone have any suggestions other than proxying up every deck and sitting in my house playing myself? I guess I wouldn't lose that way!

[ParkerLewis]

Anyone have any suggestions other than proxying up every deck and sitting in my house playing myself? I guess I wouldn't lose that way!

In your case, I'd say this option is probably the best. You can also buy a MWS licence, and playtest your deck versus other decks playing against yourself (in which case you don't need any reliable internet). Of course that's exactly the same thing except it will be much much faster to do this, update lists, etc.

It's not actual experience, but it's not that bad a starting point : at least it forces you to know how those decks function as you will be playing them too, thus you'll be able to grasp during those games where they're vulnerable.

[Versus]

Oh, you can do that? I installed it at one point to check it out, but wasn't able to do anything besides upload Precon decks. Not to mention that both sides of the table had identical decks. I figured I had limited access from the trial version and just took it off.

I'll look back into it then. That seems a lot easier than pulling out the Sharpie and going to town on a box load of commons. Thanks.

[Peter_Rotten]

There is no subsitute for experience and practice. The best way to get better is by playing against ppl better than you. That being said, here are some things you can do until you feel confidant in your skills or have some sort of local scene.

Play an easy decent deck. Maybe Goyf Sligh, Dragon Stompy, or Eva Green.
Read, read, read. Every piece of Legacy material possible. And, what the hell, read about T2, Vintage, Draft, etc.

[Maveric78f]

If you don't want to buy the licence, simply open 2 instances of mwsplay and you can load 2 different decks. That's what I always do for my MU analysis and believe me it's very useful.

Maybe the best still, is to play a deck with MWS (the gauntlet one typically) and play another for real (the one you want to test). Your testings will be slower and it will help you with card manipulation, which is quite important.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8316) is a good, recent list of decks out of witch a gauntlet can be made. Nihil's suggestions refine it even more.

[Versus]

@PR: I settled on Fearie Stompy. Not too, too simple where you can play on auto-pilot, but definitely less complex than say Aluren for instance. I feel I play my own deck well, but I'm at a crossroads now. The best Toyota salesman doesn't just know Toyotas, but are well versed in Ford, Mazda, Honda, ect, ect. As of now I'm not selling shit! I'm trying to read up on as much as time permits. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and pay for the SCG articles as well.

@Maveric: That sounds like the best route. I'll reinstall it tonight and mess around in there.

@SV: Thanks for the link. That's a good place to start. I did attempt this about a month ago, but some the DTB threads are 70+ pages. I didn't want to take a deck list from the first page as I figured it was outdated. When I went digging, there were so many different lists and arguements about said lists concerning which was more optimal I got discouraged.

[zulander]

Is the "Can't play against people" problem because no one around you plays legacy or magic? If there is a store right now that has drafts/casual games I'd recomend going to it. Draft helps you as a player with regards to your own turn (i.e helping you learn on when/how to attack and play cards in main1 or main2 etc...) and extended helps you work on your bluffing/playmistakes. Also, extended is fairly similar right now to legacy.

[Bovinious]

Is the "Can't play against people" problem because no one around you plays legacy or magic? If there is a store right now that has drafts/casual games I'd recomend going to it. Draft helps you as a player with regards to your own turn (i.e helping you learn on when/how to attack and play cards in main1 or main2 etc...) and extended helps you work on your bluffing/playmistakes. Also, extended is fairly similar right now to legacy.

I agree, you could just play Extended right if there is a competitive scene where you live for Legacy practice, the formats are pretty similar. Extended has Goblins, Dredge, (weaker) Storm Combo, Zoo/Rock, and Countertop-Goyf decks (unfortunately people cream their pants about Counterbalance and Goyf in Extended too, tho :frown: ), so itd give you practice against archetypes you will likely see in Legacy as well.

[Phantom]

I actually find this pretty interesting as I always thought about starting a thread (or asking an admin to start one in the LMF) called 'How to beat/attack other decks". The problem is I could never figure out a good way to organize it (one thread for all decks = too muddles. One thread for each deck = too many threads). I also considered proposing it as an adept question but could never figure out the wording I wanted.

Reading deck threads usually tells you more how to PLAY it, than how to beat it, and often the weaknesses of the deck are debated vehemently by the creators. For example I do not play TES. No one in my area plays it either. The only reason I know that TES is more susceptible to board combo hate (like Trini and Chalice) than to counters is that Wastedlife admitted such a thing in a post of his IIRC. If he hadn't, I would to this day think counters and discard were a good way to fight the deck.

I personally would find something of this nature useful as more of a deck designer than competitive player, but can also understand the difficulty of such a task (and perhaps its limited functionality).

[Versus]

@ zulander: No, no. I play Standard every week. After being out of the game for 8 years and just getting back into it last September it's (as well as all of you guys answering my assault of stack questions) helped immensely at being a better player. Not a better Legacy player. Playing FNM every week isn't going to give me any insight whatsoever on how to disrupt the weakest point while Ichorid is going off without seeing it.

Now that I have "seen" it I still don't know what the fuck happened. I was like a deer caught in the headlights of an 18 wheeler hauling ass down the Interstate right for my head. It's one thing to fuck up and try to Needle somone's Top with CB out and having them tap it, draw a card, put it on top of their library, flip it over and counter your Needle. You do that once, slap yourself in the head, and say "FUCK!", but you never do it again.

Like Peter Rotten said, there is no substitute for experience. Mine just happens to be limited to 3 events.

@Bovinous: Thats a viable solution actually. A lot of the kids that play at the shop I play Standard at play Extended. Some of them even went to the PTQ's a few weeks back and pretty proficent players.

@Phantom: I have to agree with ALL of that!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If it would help, I could post all of the lists that I use for testing. I have a deck list for each deck in that list.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am in the same boat myself. I have access to a computer, but for some reason but MWS is incredibly clunky and difficult to play with. Meh, one of these days I will figure out how to use it...

[Versus]

If it would help, I could post all of the lists that I use for testing. I have a deck list for each deck in that list.

That would be awesome, yeah!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Some of them don't have sideboards and aren't created by me. I don't know who creathed what and there is some room for tweaking. Dragon Stompy and Goblins contain Morning Tide cards. Breakfast, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid, Uw Landstill, TES and the Thresholds may be outdated by a month. Four Colour Landstill should probably be the planeswalker version, I'll fix that later today.

If anyone better acquainted with these decks has a problem, tell me and I'll fix it.

In convenient Magic Workstation paste-able format and as of January 14, 2008;

Aggro Loam
Source unknown

// Lands
2 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Mountain
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
3 Taiga
1 Badlands

// Creatures
4 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Seismic Assault
1 Rolling Earthquake
2 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Rolling Earthquake
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Reverent Silence

Armageddon Stax
by Silverdragon

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 Armageddon
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Duskrider Peregrine
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor

Green Death
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Dystopia

Breakfast
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

// Creatures
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Sutured Ghoul

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
2 Abeyance
3 Worldly Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Dragon Breath
1 Echoing Truth
4 Brainstorm

Dragon Stompy
by Sanguine Voyeur

// Lands
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis or Pyroclasm
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

Goblins
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands

// Creatures
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Warren Weirding

Goyf Sligh
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Taiga
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Kird Ape

// Spells
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Seal of Fire
2 Needle Drop
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 4 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium

Ichorid
Source unknown

// Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 Gamble
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Volcanic Spray

Landstill 4c
By Tacosnape

// Lands
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

// Spells
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Quagnoth

Landstill Uw
Sorurce unknown


// Lands
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
3 Island

// Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Justice
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Humility
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Moat
SB: 2 Akroma's Vengeance
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Meddling Mage

TES
by Wastedlife?

// Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
1 Infernal Contract
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
2 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tranquility
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm

Thresh UGb
Sorce unknown

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Smother

Thresh UGr
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Thresh UGw
Source unknown

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra

// Creatures
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Predict
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Armageddon
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast

[Cavius The Great]

Versus, judging from all of your threads, it seems that you strive for greatness, like myself. I can relate to that fully and sincerely. But as a tip for playing better Magic, you need to concentrate better, judging from my perspective. If you really wanted to play well, I'd recommend looking into getting Focus-in or some other brain stimulating vitamin. I know people that have taken these vitamins and it worked for them, so it's no gimmick. I actually plan on doing this to play better in tournaments. Now you know my secret tech. :wink:

[zulander]

If you really wanted to play well, I'd recommend looking into getting Focus-in or some other brain stimulating vitamin. I know people that have taken these vitamins and it worked for them, so it's no gimmick. I actually plan on doing this to play better in tournaments. Now you know my secret tech. :wink:
Cavius: "Hey guys, I got these new pills, and guess what!!?!? THEY MAKE U TEH LEETZORZ at MTG!!!"

Kids at the store: "Lol noob, you still suck. Go take some "Make you better at life" pills".


That's the initial image I had in my head after reading your post.

[Mijorre]

More like 'put your pants back on'-pills, you mean?

[goobafish]

The only way to get good is by playing in events. As far as I am concerned this is not substitutable. People play differently in events than they do when you are testing, hey make mistakes they would not normally make because of pressure, or they make different or safer plays.

Have you ever played poker with friends when it is not for money? It is absolutely terrible, people go all in on rediculous plays just to test their luck. You play differently when there is something is on the line.

A great deal of playskill is derived from staying cool in the face of competition, psyching out your opponent, and capitalizing on their safe plays or play mistakes.

I think it is better to play in a Standard event than to sit at home and test matchups against yourself in legacy. Once you understand how the opponent's deck works, and it's objectives, not much can be gained from sitting there and playing yourself.

A good player is a good player. If want to be better at legacy, play whatever events of any format that you can locally, and read online about new cards and common decklists. The combination of information and play skill will allow you to become much better.

The other thing that is very helpful is to surround yourself with good players that will help. Watch their games and ask why they make certain plays, and listen to their answers. I have found this very helpful.

[AnwarA101]

Read, read, read. Every piece of Legacy material possible.


I would not recommend this as many Legacy articles are poorly written and have little to do with competitive Legacy. I would instead read some very good theory articles that are applicable to Legacy. "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores comes to mind. There are many others as well.

[goobafish]

I would not recommend this as many Legacy articles are poorly written and have little to do with competitive Legacy. I would instead read some very good theory articles that are applicable to Legacy. "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores comes to mind. There are many others as well.

I think about that article at least once during every tournament I play in, it is extremely useful.

[Peter_Rotten]

I would not recommend this as many Legacy articles are poorly written and have little to do with competitive Legacy. I would instead read some very good theory articles that are applicable to Legacy. "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores comes to mind. There are many others as well.

But how does one learn to recognize "bad" Legacy articles? Read, read, read 'em all. Eventually you (if not already) will see ideas, plays, deck-builds, theories, etc. that you do not agree with or that contradict more prominent writers. I still recommend "Read 'em All" until you feel confidant with dismissing ideas (and articles in general).

[Finn]

Read articles until you are able to decide for yourself which ones were worth your time. Once that starts happening consistently you no longer need the crappy ones, and the good ones are mostly for entertainment.

Skip the SCG membership. Do you really care what their staff writers think about Legacy?

EDIT: Damnit Matt. I was writing.
EDIT: "confidant"=person, "confident"=description of a person
This message is only fit for the grammar nazi himself.

[Bryant Cook]

Does the articles section still exist? I read that and the original Landstill thread over and over again before the Big Arse. I've read every article in there 3-4 times, I like to believe that it made me better. A wise man once said, "Quit sucking" ever since I havent....ahah. It good advice to take.

[AnwarA101]

But how does one learn to recognize "bad" Legacy articles? Read, read, read 'em all. Eventually you (if not already) will see ideas, plays, deck-builds, theories, etc. that you do not agree with or that contradict more prominent writers. I still recommend "Read 'em All" until you feel confidant with dismissing ideas (and articles in general).

The primary goal isn't to recognize bad articles. The goal is to become a better player and you won't get much help by reading bad articles. What newer players need is real information and realistic analysis of both the metagame and individual decks in that format. They also need to understand basic magic theory in that it helps them both develop decks and play games effectively. None of this is offered by bad articles.

[Tacosnape]

1. Read.
2. Play.
3. Analyze what you could have done better in both wins and losses.
4. Watch people better than you play.
5. Have a drive to be the best.

And all of this may not be enough. Some people don't, can't, and never will be better than mediocre.

[Pinder]

I would not recommend this as many Legacy articles are poorly written and have little to do with competitive Legacy. I would instead read some very good theory articles that are applicable to Legacy. "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores comes to mind. There are many others as well.

Isn't there a required reading thread somewhere? I would suggest reading every article in there.

edit - Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609)

[Nightmare]

The primary goal isn't to recognize bad articles. The goal is to become a better player and you won't get much help by reading bad articles. What newer players need is real information and realistic analysis of both the metagame and individual decks in that format. They also need to understand basic magic theory in that it helps them both develop decks and play games effectively. None of this is offered by bad articles.
The primary goal is not to become a better overall player, the primary goal is to become a better legacy player. What newer players need is realistic analysis of both the metagame and individual decks in the format. Reading antiquated articles about finding the Tinker deck, or how to not give up during a game, will not offer this.

I understand you're frustrated with the quality of Legacy writing. At the same time, I'm extremely offended by the constant barrage of criticism from you on the matter, and do not understand why every thread that mentions legacy writing must eventually devolve into Anwar and/or Urabahn bashing the Unlocking Legacy writers.

[Ewokslayer]

So, I scrubbed again. Yeah, I made some play mistakes. Yeah, I had some bad luck with my draws, but mostly I just had no idea how the decks I was playing against fuctioned. At one point during an Ichorid matchup I had Chalice set at 0, Chalice set at 1, and Needle naming Shaman. Needle naming Shaman??! Yeah, I thought it was Breakfast. I was totally outplayed. So I brought in Crypts and Kegs. I was able to play an early Keg which I kept at 0. Of course he never made Bridge tokens that game and took me down with some */* guy who's name I can't even recall. You see the problem? You can read through the threads here in DTB and Established, but you can only gleen so much from Primers. So, what else can you do besides actual experience?

A quick way to get better is to analyze the games you do get to play.
Look for mistakes and try to figure out why you made them.
Some questions
1) You have needle on Shaman because you thought it was Breakfast, Why?
Perhaps you saw some cards that should have clued you in to Ichorid (from what I know of the lists they aren't similiar).
2)You have chalice at zero, was this after you figured out it was ichorid? Or did you think that chalice for zero had value against Breakfast? Again, why?
3)From this statement

Now that I have "seen" it I still don't know what the fuck happened. and
Of course he never made Bridge tokens that game and took me down with some */* guy who's name I can't even recall. You don't seem to be paying enough attention to what is happening. With Ichorid the game state can get complicated quickly as their is a lot of new cards being revealed and interactions that aren't obvious (i.e. Fanatic owning Bridge). As such don't be worried about making your opponent slow down and show you what they are actually doing. That way you can figure out what is happening and be better positioned to fight it next time.


Reading deck threads usually tells you more how to PLAY it, than how to beat it, and often the weaknesses of the deck are debated vehemently by the creators. For example I do not play TES. No one in my area plays it either. The only reason I know that TES is more susceptible to board combo hate (like Trini and Chalice) than to counters is that Wastedlife admitted such a thing in a post of his IIRC. If he hadn't, I would to this day think counters and discard were a good way to fight the deck.

I personally would find something of this nature useful as more of a deck designer than competitive player, but can also understand the difficulty of such a task (and perhaps its limited functionality).
This is hardly a problem that only Legacy faces. Numerous articles/threads talk about a card/deck without actually describing how the card or deck functions. This seems to be especially true with Extended Ichorid (and combo in general) where you hear all the time how it can fit through a hate card (crypt/Leyline) with no problem without anyone actually saying how.


and do not understand why every thread that mentions legacy writing must eventually devolve into Anwar and/or Urabahn bashing the Unlocking Legacy writers.
They are playa haters

[AnwarA101]

The primary goal is not to become a better overall player, the primary goal is to become a better legacy player. What newer players need is realistic analysis of both the metagame and individual decks in the format. Reading antiquated articles about finding the Tinker deck, or how to not give up during a game, will not offer this.


In my opinion there is nothing antiquated about "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores. Like goobafish I think about the ideas from it all the time.



I understand you're frustrated with the quality of Legacy writing. At the same time, I'm extremely offended by the constant barrage of criticism from you on the matter, and do not understand why every thread that mentions legacy writing must eventually devolve into Anwar and/or Urabahn bashing the Unlocking Legacy writers.

I'm not sure what to say to this. The implication in your response is that saying nothing would be better than expressing my opinion. If that is how you feel then I can accept it, but I don't see how its consistent with being a moderator for a forum. If you will notice I never said anything about a specific writer. I argued that reading Legacy articles in general may not help someone because I personally believe many of them are not good.

[Versus]

Thanks for the lists Sanguine Voyeur. That's great that you compiled them together like that. Much appreciated.

Goobafish: That's why I continue to go to FNM. At least it's something. However, I find that FNM has gotten too casual. I know the people well enough to be relaxed. Being not much is vested ($10 store credit and an unplayable foil) I find I play even better. It also helps that I know what and how each every deck there fuctions and wins. I know what to SB and can do it in a few seconds. During Legacy match-ups unless the SB card is a specific hoser (or deck I know) I get flustered, feel like I'm taking too much time, and then realize afterwards I boarded incorrectly.

While playing Legacy I'm totally different. Maybe too focussed (on what I'm doing). For instance, while playing against Thresh (I was playing Fae Stompy), I played around Daze like it was the most valid spell in his deck. I waited to have mana open before I cast anything. Even to the point where my opponent had to double Daze me to counter my spell. Perhaps I should have been the aggressor? That is the nature of the deck after all.

I think I played that match well. We went to turns in round three with me 8 life and him at 3. I had more flyers to his ground guys on the board and Chalice @ 1. I would have been able to swing in FTW on the next turn. On the flip side of that, when the LED got cracked durring the Ichorid match I just said to myself "OH SHIT OH SHIT!!". This is what I'm getting at. I know Thresh and was able to play against it. The latter was me throwing out blind Chalices and Needles that ended up doing shit.

The way I play the Thresh matchup will be easier the better I become at Magic. The way I approach Ichorid will become easier the more acclimated I become with Legacy archetypes as a whole. Does that make sense?

Finn: Most of the SCG articles specifically for Legacy are free anyway, right? I just figured some of the T2 stuff that is pay-to-read would be worth it. Do you most of you here subscribe?

To everyone: So, say I could get on MWS? I've read the horror stories in the thread you all post in. Is it always like that? Would any of you be willing to take the time to play a few matches against someone (me) who may not be anywhere near the caliber of play skill as yourselves?

[Nightmare]

In my opinion there is nothing antiquated about "Who's the Beatdown?" by Mike Flores. Like goobafish I think about the ideas from it all the time. Selecting a single article to represent the entirety of articles that have been written on non-legacy Magic is no more fair than dismissing all Legacy articles as valueless because you don't like the way one author (or more, I suppose) writes.


I'm not sure what to say to this. The implication in your response is that saying nothing would be better than expressing my opinion.I'm saying there is a correct place to discuss it, and that you constantly mistake the wrong place for the right place, or assume that everywhere is the correct place.


If that is how you feel then I can accept it, but I don't see how its consistent with being a moderator for a forum.So, making sure that the topic of conversation is maintained in the appropriate place and time is inconsistant with moderating a discussion? Granted, my dictionary is a little outdated, but I'm pretty sure the definition of "moderate" hasn't changed.


If you will notice I never said anything about a specific writer. I argued that reading Legacy articles in general may not help someone because I personally believe many of them are not good.Your credentials for evaluating the worth of a given article may not be congruent with the rest of the world's. I'm not saying you're wrong - far from it - but the fact is, you're much more likely to find significant fault in a given Legacy article than the next guy, because
A) you have more exposure to the format, and
B) you're bringing a lot of baggage and preconcieved notions into the article along with you.

There is value in reading Legacy articles. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't write them.

[Versus]

1) You have needle on Shaman because you thought it was Breakfast, Why?
Perhaps you saw some cards that should have clued you in to Ichorid (from what I know of the lists they aren't similiar).

I jumped the gun I guess and confused the two decks. He played City of Brass and an LED and passed the turn. I just slammed the Needle down. I saw someone playing Breakfast earlier and may have confused them as well.


2)You have chalice at zero, was this after you figured out it was ichorid? Or did you think that chalice for zero had value against Breakfast? Again, why?

That was after I figured out it was Ichorid. That was game 2 actually and I was trying to stop LED. Honestly at one point I confused EE with Chalice and thought I could stop tokens from being generated. I totally choked.


You don't seem to be paying enough attention to what is happening.

That's pretty dead on. When combo is going off I just fold. Unless I happen to see the player later on (out for a smoke let's say) and can ask him about his deck and how he did what he did and how to disrupt it, I won't have a clue.

[AnwarA101]

Selecting a single article to represent the entirety of articles that have been written on non-legacy Magic is no more fair than dismissing all Legacy articles as valueless because you don't like the way one author (or more, I suppose) writes.


I never meant it to represent all non-legacy articles. I only used it as an example of a very good article from the past, which you seemed to dismiss because the articles might be outdated.



I'm saying there is a correct place to discuss it, and that you constantly mistake the wrong place for the right place, or assume that everywhere is the correct place.


I was responding to PR's suggestion to read Legacy articles. Can't I simply disagree with his assesment that there is value in reading all Legacy articles? If there is no right place to discuss these articles that is fine. I can accept that as well.



So, making sure that the topic of conversation is maintained in the appropriate place and time is inconsistant with moderating a discussion? Granted, my dictionary is a little outdated, but I'm pretty sure the definition of "moderate" hasn't changed.


You are welcome to do whatever you wish. You are in charge and I readily accept that. You are welcome to crush dissent, but I doubt it adds much to this forum if we didn't have it.



Your credentials for evaluating the worth of a given article may not be congruent with the rest of the world's. I'm not saying you're wrong - far from it - but the fact is, you're much more likely to find significant fault in a given Legacy article than the next guy, because
A) you have more exposure to the format, and
B) you're bringing a lot of baggage and preconcieved notions into the article along with you.

There is value in reading Legacy articles. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't write them.

I only offered my assessment of the situation. Other people are welcome to disagree with my sentiment that many of the Legacy articles are not worth reading. You seem to forget that I never suggested all the articles weren't worth reading. On the contrary, I think some of them are good and helpful.

[zulander]

If you're starting to choke and freak out then the thing I would recomend is to take it easy and realize, even if they go off it's just a match. One thing I've noticed is that the people that usually do well in tournaments do well because they stay calm and don't over think the game. Also, if you find yourself being confused about something, just ask your opponent to hold on while you read the cards. Taking that extra 5-10 seconds to recognize the board and game state will win you those games that you've been losing.

[Nightmare]

I never meant it to represent all non-legacy articles. I only used it as an example of a very good article from the past, which you seemed to dismiss because the articles might be outdated. No, by no means am I dismissing anything. My point is only that there are far more bad articles than good in general and that I don't believe Legacy has a larger portion of bad than any other subset. Even the ones that are good don't necessarily apply to Legacy in any significant way (which is why I chose the Tinker deck).


I was responding to PR's suggestion to read Legacy articles. Can't I simply disagree with his assesment that there is value in reading all Legacy articles? If there is no right place to discuss these articles that is fine. I can accept that as well.Sure. Disagree. But who makes the distinction? And if it isn't about being able to tell the good from the bad - as you say it isn't, then aren't they better off reading none than all? And there is a correct place to discuss it. Perhaps you can start a thread in the Format Discussion forum - it's generally where we discuss articles when they're written.


You are welcome to do whatever you wish. You are in charge and I readily accept that. You are welcome to crush dissent, but I doubt it adds much to this forum if we didn't have it.Crush Dissent? Reign that high horse in a bit there, chief. It's not exactly crushing anything to say that a particular vein of discussion has gotten off topic (like this one has) and try to steer it onto the right track. In fact, it's pretty much my entire job description. That, and destroying hopes and dreams, of course. Cry conspiracy.


I only offered my assessment of the situation. Other people are welcome to disagree with my sentiment that many of the Legacy articles are not worth reading. You seem to forget that I never suggested all the articles weren't worth reading. On the contrary, I think some of them are good and helpful.Fair enough. This is where I do my job ( feel free to close your eyes if it offends you):

If you'd like to discuss the relative merit of Legacy articles as opposed to non-legacy theory articles, please start another thread in the Format Discussion forum. Please keep this thread focused on helpful hints for becoming more proficient as a Legacy player.

Edit - We can continue the discussion by pm if you don't want to create a new thread, Anwar.

[nitewolf9]

Sounds like you need to relax when you play. Take it a bit slow and think about what you do before you do it. Don't just auto play things, think about why it is a good or a bad play against the deck you are against. Ask yourself what chalice for X stops, what card(s) you have to stop, or what threats you need to play in order to win for example.

[Bahamuth]

Sounds like you need to relax when you play. Take it a bit slow and think about what you do before you do it. Don't just auto play things, think about why it is a good or a bad play against the deck you are against. Ask yourself what chalice for X stops, what card(s) you have to stop, or what threats you need to play in order to win for example.

Absolutely. Also, make sure you appear confident. I've noticed it's much harder to play well vs. a player that seems to know exaclty what's going on and maintains his poker face.

Also, altough many will disagree, if you've got a deck you like, stick with it and practice with it a lot. You will eventually know exactly what to do in every situation, including the sideboarding. You'll play much faster, which is a good ting eventually, since this makes your opponent think you're way ahead of him.

[Versus]

Great advise zulander and nitewolfe. I need to deal with that better. I did have some idea, I just couldn't get it going. All I was able to determine durring the match is I could use Crypts to stop him and Evoking Mulldrifter would have removed the Bridges. Being the better player he was able to play around all that. He Therapy'd my Trinket Mage, he had a second LED after me Forcing the first (was that even the right play?), and with Keg @ 0 he went about winning other ways beyond tokens. I guess what makes me most frustrated about the experience is he didn't just go off turn 1 or 2 where it would have been beyond my control. I slowed him down, but was unable to capitalize because I knew so little on how the deck fuctions. I know how it wins, I just don't know how to stop it at EVERY point. Had I stopped and thought about what I was doing perhaps I could have used better judgement.

Bahamuth: Yeah, that's big. Starring at your hand for a full minute only to sigh and pass the turn probably isn't the best play! Still SBing while your opponent already has his deck presented for cutting, also not so good. That's basically me right there in a nut shell.

[zulander]

Forcing LED from my understanding is usually the correct call.

[Ewokslayer]

Forcing LED from my understanding is usually the correct call.

From the standpoint of going against Ichorid, perhaps.

However, from a starting point of City of Brass - LED, you can't tell if the deck is TES or Ichorid.
If it is TES countering LED doesn't seem very good.

@ Versus
A lot of the difficult described could be solved by being familar with stock Legacy decklists (i.e. no Breakfast deck to my knowledge runs City or LED),
as well as thinking about what your boarding strategies will be against the stock decks or at least looking at what the posted strategies are and why the poster would board like that.

[Elficidium]

That's the problem with Ichorid, it's seldom clear what the correct play is from the other side.
I, for one, often use LED's to trick people into using their counterspells.
Depends largely on whether or not you expect them to have another discard outlet or if they can follow it up with Deep Analysis/Breakthrough.
But it was probably a good play.

[Silverdragon]

I think right now your main problem is the unfamiliarity (sp?) with some Legacy decks combined with you believing in your lack of playskill/inferiority compared to your opponent.
From what you wrote in earlier posts I do believe that you can actually play reasonably good (meaning around average, probably better) but you get intimidated by players who show a greater familiarity/confidence.
The solution however is not to just act like you've got everything under control (because this will just put you on tilt when something goes wrong) but to admit (to yourself) that you feel uncomfortable and look for ways to calm down. First of course if you can't follow what your opponent is doing ask him to slow down so you can read all the cards etc. If you are unsure about an interaction, call for a judge (and don't be afraid of calling a judge multiple times during a match if you really need to. They are there to help you.)
If your opponent is friendly you can and should probably ask him right after the match about mistakes he may have spotted and general information about his deck.
Aside from this, in preparation for a tournament, you can at least use the Solitaire mode of MWS (or proxied decks) to goldfish lots of different decks. What I did and still sometimes do before tournaments is look at the Source for decks I don't already know, copy them (MWS or Proxies) and goldfish them simply to get a feel how they work. Then I ask myself "how does this deck win against me" and "how do I win against this deck". If I'm not sure whether I know the answer/whether my answer is right I do some 2 handed testing (I play both decks) and create situations that I think I'll encounter during a match.
For example when Ichorid was new I loaded a list into MWS and played some games. I noticed that LED did not speed up my goldfish kill but Breakthrough did. So I created some games against Stax where Stax had First Turn Chalice @0 and some games with Chalice @1. (As I expected Stax won far more games with Chalice @1 than with Chalice @0)

So in conclusion I'd say your main problem should be solvable by simply playing with other decks yourself and lots of communication with your opponents and other people who know about these decks.
I hope this actually helps.

[Nihil Credo]

However, from a starting point of City of Brass - LED, you can't tell if the deck is TES or Ichorid.
If it is TES countering LED doesn't seem very good.
If it's TES, than LED is not the card in their hand you most want to counter, but it's probably one of the 2-3 most important ones.

So the EV comparison between Forcing and not Forcing LED is: (somewhat suboptimal play)*(chances it's TES) + (optimal play)*(chances it's Ichorid) VS. (optimal play)*(chances it's TES) + (you probably lost the game)*(chances it's Ichorid).

I'd say Forcing the LED is the correct play, especially since in most metagames Ichorid is more popular than TES.

[Shugyosha]

What helped me in a roughly chronological order:

1. Know the cards. Seriously every single card that is usually played in legacy. You should at least have seen the card and have the slightest idea what it does. Sometimes you will see a card you now vaguely or not at all (rogue). Read it, thoroughly.

2. Have a competitive group to play with. Real life and MWS if possible. RL will teach you basics of mental gaming. MWS has the benefit of unlimted number of decks to choose from. Play MWS/proxies with pictures so you learn to identify lesser known cards by picture.

3. Play every good and upcoming/hyped legacy deck. Its not good enough just to know how Ichorid works, play it on MWS or at least goldfish the decks. If you want to be good stay tuned to new decks and list changes.

4. Know the rules. If you don't know the basics of Humiliy you will make wrong decision based upon incomplete data. You should at least be able to pass the rules advisor test. This is a decent level of knowledge.

5. Stay cool and think all the time. If you opponents plays a Brainstorm in midgame and needs time to think don't get distracted. Rethink your board position, your role, your outs and keep a look at the opponents face and cards during the time. If time/situation allows think about sideboarding at the end of the first match.

6. Mental gaming and information gathering. Use every last bit of information to get to know what deck your opponent plays, as long as it is legal obviously. Exploit insecurities and play mistakes but stay fair.
Well mental gaming is difficult to pin down. Creativity, trial and error basically.

7. Never stop working in all of the topics above. Never stop playing.
If you lose the game because you drew a land when you needed a removal, ask yourself if you could have played this different in the 5-6 turns before.
If you made an error also explore why you did it. Not enough information, didn't know a card interaction...

8. Its only a game. See it like Poker players. Prepare, minimise your errors and misplays. Then if you suck in a tourney get over it, work on yourself. It will change.
And remember, MTG pro players usually win 60-65% of their games.

[Phantom]

4. Know the rules. If you don't know the basics of Humiliy you will make wrong decision based upon incomplete data. You should at least be able to pass the rules advisor test. This is a decent level of knowledge.


This is one I've struggled with. Is there a good way to do this besides reading the amazingly convoluted and long rule book or having friends who can teach you?

Basically, I'm having trouble finding a good starting spot to jump into mildly advanced rules.

[zulander]

Download the comprehensive rules and read it like a book. Makes a good sleeping pill lol.

On a serious note, make sure you know the most important rules. Here's a list of things every competitve player should know:

1. The stack
2. Priority
3. Spells and resolutions
4. Combat phases

I feel like I'm forgetting something but these are the most important rules you need to know.

[mujadaddy]

Download the comprehensive rules and read it like a book. Makes a good sleeping pill lol.

On a serious note, make sure you know the most important rules. Here's a list of things every competitve player should know:

1. The stack
2. Priority
3. Spells and resolutions
4. Combat phases

I feel like I'm forgetting something but these are the most important rules you need to know.
Say it with me: Untap, Upkeep, Draw... Untap, Upkeep, Draw... Untap, Upkeep, Draw... :tongue:

[zulander]

Say it with me: Untap, Upkeep, Draw... Untap, Upkeep, Draw... Untap, Upkeep, Draw... :tongue:

Wait, I don't untap after my upkeep? WTF, that sensei's divining top card sucks now.

[mujadaddy]

Wait, I don't untap after my upkeep? WTF, that sensei's divining top card sucks now.

Just do it during the opponent's end step ( :laugh: :tongue: :wink: )

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Layers.

Layers are a key part of upper level rules comprehension.

[zulander]

Layers.

Layers are a key part of upper level rules comprehension.
Good thing you posted that last line, I thought you were going to say how Magic is like an onion.

[Shugyosha]

This is one I've struggled with. Is there a good way to do this besides reading the amazingly convoluted and long rule book or having friends who can teach you?

Basically, I'm having trouble finding a good starting spot to jump into mildly advanced rules.

There are three things (I love lists):

The basic game rules: Stack, turn structure, stack, token, stack and the stuff zulander said and stack manipulation on top of that. Yea, I think this is basic stuff nowadays but mosty people don't think they will ever need it... Their fault.

Card-based rules: Sometimes cards overwrite game rules and/or act in a strange way with other cards and effects. As said Humility, counterbalance, LED-Infernal Tutor, etc.
I also count abilities to this. You should know the detailed rules of common abilities in legacy like flashback, storm, pitching, regeneration, replicate, imprint, madness...
So you can stifle imprint and the card will never be imprinted, you can't counter replicate copies but you can counter storm copies and so on.

The little tricks. Most of them are borderline between rules knowledge and play skill though. You will read about them or see them while playing or watching.
Floating mana from upkeep to draw step, combat tricks (Jitte has to do with many of them), activating Mishra's Factory and kill it to remove Bridge from Below (don't try to pull this trick off with Swords :wink: )

[Nihil Credo]

For actually fun ways to learn the rules, play one of the most recent Limited formats - from Kamigawa onwards. They feature the most complicated rule interactions of all competitive Magic.

[TrialByFire]

go to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/becoming/how and click on the "http://judge.wizards.com" link (you will need to sign in with your DCI number and password)

There go to the Create tab and you can take easy or hard judge practice tests. You should be able to get in the 90% of the easy test to ensure you have pretty decent knowledge of most of the rules. IF you can get in the 90s on the Hard test you have a very good knowledge of the rules

[Versus]

@Ewok: Indeed. As a matter of fact I'm taking all the lists that SV posted last page, printing them out, and going through Gatherer to familiarize myself with the cards I don't know.

@Silverdragon: Yeah, that actually helps. A lot. I want to address this specifically:


combined with you believing in your lack of playskill/inferiority compared to your opponent.


This is me. I imagine a skilled opponent can read me like a book. When my board position isn't the greatest and they play something relevant my head sinks and I probably have the look of a little boy who's balloon just floated away. It's like they have an answer to anything I do and nothing I top deck will pull me out. I'm defeated before I even start the match.

@Shugyosha: Gatherer is up in another window as I type this. I'd like to be able to play against every deck and never have to read a card. As far as play testing, I'm gonna proxy up a bunch of the gauntlet decks and bring them with me to the shop I play T2. I think the people that do the Extended scene would be more than willing to help out. Maybe it would get them into Legacy. As a matter of fact I was joking with a kid who's an amazing control player. I tell him he should be playing with FoW and Daze instead of shitty Rune Snags and Remove Souls.

Man, I appreciate everyones input in this.

@TrialbyFire: Cool! I'm on that. Thanks.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm going to brag here, so suck it up and put it in the Great Source Quotes thread:

I started playing competitive magic like 50 weeks ago. That sounds oddly more imposing than "just under a year." Whatever. In any event, after my lucky-ass top 2 almost by mistake I came to this site, and started to poke around, usually only just spamming about my mad Enchantress skillz.

Then I discovered the "required reading" page that Teeniebopper had thrown together, and read an article while I was doing laundry. Then I kind of forgot about my laundry and read like six or eight more. I'm no superman when it comes to reading, so this took probably three or four hours. If my roommate hadn't invited me to dinner with his moderately attractive girlfriend I probably would have forgotten about that laundry and just read magic theory for like the next dozen hours.

Read them articles, man. History will show that I've top 8'd 5 33+ man events in the last 12 months (though, loathfully, only 3 of those were good enough for the DTB forum standards). I'm not trying to brag or anything, in all honesty. I attribute my apparent skill in magic to the combined words of like three or four dozen individual Magic authors from probably two hundred or so articles.

Now, as Anwar said earlier, it turns out that most authors suck. Maybe he said it a bit more diplomatically, but there are some piss poor writers out there, and it's your responsibility to root through them. And, as other people must have said before now, read everything. My favorite writer, Chris Romeo, just recently abdicated his throne of free, fun, good articles at Star City due to a medical condition, and I'm going to miss his easy writing style and terrible decks with excellent stratedgy sections. Hell, most of the best articles I've read are on Mental Magic theory. Flores writes a couple every other year or so, and those are goldmines for pratical advice.

In short, read your eyes out. Start now, if you'd like.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I've just now come to realize that one of the most important things I learned from Starcraft is applicable to Magic. One of the most important things you can do is think. If you pay attention and think out every move, your actions will be better and you will learn more. You may think you're thinking, but you're probably not.

You should think about everything, in every step of the game. Never just "throw something in" to your deck, think of it's roles, uses, and power. Never just pass the turn, think if there's anything you should have done on your turn and if there's any thing you should have ready on your opponent's turn. In each combat phase you should balance the risks of attacking/blocking against inaction, keeping in mind life totals, combat tricks, and board position.

[This is general advice, not targeted at you.]

[My Name Is Scott]

Versus, judging from all of your threads, it seems that you strive for greatness, like myself. I can relate to that fully and sincerely. But as a tip for playing better Magic, you need to concentrate better, judging from my perspective. If you really wanted to play well, I'd recommend looking into getting Focus-in or some other brain stimulating vitamin. I know people that have taken these vitamins and it worked for them, so it's no gimmick. I actually plan on doing this to play better in tournaments. Now you know my secret tech. :wink:
This is similar to team unicorn's secret tech, but also inferior in every way. Before a tournament members will often imbibe large amounts of tea saturated with horny goat weed. (http://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=5941&ad=goosahgwhgw&gclid=CLGc1bzq-ZACFQspFQodwwWz0g) Not only does it give you a competition intimidating hard on, but it makes you feel like you are in a jacuzzi for about 6 hours. Since this feeling is so similar in nature to that of a unicorn shower, it beefs up your play skill, swells your confidence, and extends your concentration to a deep level you've probably never experienced.

[Versus]

I can't thank you all enough for putting me on the right path. Not only have I printed out the entire Comp Rules, but I spent the better half of yesterday morning at work (not doing any) making up this binder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/KSC2-303/binder1.jpg

It contains all of the Gauntlet lists that SV posted in this thread as well as others from the Established forums. I included the primers from their respective threads (if there were any) as well as printed out every relevant card that I've never played with, saw before, or just don't know 100%.

Most archetypes have a page or less of cards. As you can see Ichorid has 3! I guess it's no mystery why I was so unprepared. I may get my ass handed to me by Ichorid again, but if I do, I'll know why! That's a start.

[Cavius The Great]

@Versus - That's admirable effort, but I think that it may be in vain, since the metagame is always shifting and studying decks card by card might be different 6-8 months from now. That's the only downside I see in your approach.

[xsockmonkeyx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/KSC2-303/binder1.jpg


That's actually pretty cool. Like a mini, portable the Source + Gatherer. I dont like that Ichorid list but whatever.

[Versus]

Cav: I'll keep an eye out and be sure to update the lists as they evolve. In the meantime it's just basically a rough resource. I can't imagine that most solidified Archetypes would change beyond a card or two.

monkey: Is it the Gamble that bothers you or other cards you don't think represent Ichorid on the whole? I notice any in the deck I played on Sunday. Then again I didn't notice much except a stripped hand and lots of hasty tokens pointed at my head.

[xsockmonkeyx]

monkey: Is it the Gamble that bothers you or other cards you don't think represent Ichorid on the whole? I notice any in the deck I played on Sunday. Then again I didn't notice much except a stripped hand and lots of hasty tokens pointed at my head.

The 4 Gamble and less than 4 Breakthrough isnt representative of a typical list and doesnt look like something I would want to shuffle up. If you are just trying to make a list that represents all of the cards so you can study then you are ok for the most part, but be advised that the list is missing Cephalid Sage.

[Shugyosha]

@Versus - That's admirable effort, but I think that it may be in vain, since the metagame is always shifting and studying decks card by card might be different 6-8 months from now. That's the only downside I see in your approach.

Thats definately a very good start. I don't think there will be many problems with updating. If the metagame doesn't shift dramatically you will pretty much know the important stuff in the binder by heart in a few month and won't need the binder anymore. Or better: The Binder has to be in your head in near future.

Regarding the Comp Rules: As I pointed out it was of great help for me to read and understand the important abilities in detail.

[Nightmare]

I remember that reading the entirety of the comp rules was an important step for me in my development as a player. When I came back into the game after quitting for a few years, it was one of the first things I did. The Floor Rules and Penalty Guideline are pretty good to read, too.

[Versus]

I'll update the Ichorid list then. Thanks monkey.

That's my goal Shugyosha, to basically make that binder obsolete. I want to be able to not only know every list, but also to recite every card (cc, p/t, abilities, and effects) in said lists by name alone. Then (if I haven't already) figure out how they win.

Nightmare, that's one of my biggest issues I think. Being away from the game for 7-8 years has not only made me rusty as a player, but just ignorant of so many rules and changes to them.