Urborg + Magus of the Moon

[Rinello]

Hi!

I'm testing the AMAZING dragon stompy with a friend with a Pikulish deck.

I have a city of traitors and a magus of the moon in play,
while he has a Scrubland.

He plays Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth and says "pwned" .

Then what happens to:

-Urborg
-City of traitors
-Scrubland
-Other lands played in the next turns.

Thanks for your help, I hope you can solve my dilemma!

[mujadaddy]

I think Magus 'wins.' Urborg says "Lands are also swamps," but Magus says, "You can't do that anymore, basic mountain."

It's *possible* that they would all be mountains AND swamps, but I think Urborg loses its ability, so no such "luck" for your friend.

[Wallace]

Hi!

I'm testing the AMAZING dragon stompy with a friend with a Pikulish deck.

I have a city of traitors and a magus of the moon in play,
while he has a Scrubland.

He plays Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth and says "pwned" .

Then what happens to:

-Urborg
-City of traitors
-Scrubland
-Other lands played in the next turns.

Thanks for your help, I hope you can solve my dilemma!


This is simple, all non-basic lands would be "Non-Basic Mountains", the Tomb's effect really won't do anything until the "Moon" is gone.

[quicksilver]

Magus of the Moon removes Urborg's ability. So your friend is the one who got pwned.

[Rinello]

Thanks a lot to everyone.

I was right in the end :P

I love Dragon Stompy even more now.

[TrialByFire]

Magus is applied in a layer after Urborg, so Magus's effect "overwrites" Urborg I believe. I know it works, just want to understand exactly why

[Tacosnape]

While we're on the subject of Magus of the Moon, does Magus of the Moon work in all zones? (I'm always a bit fuzzy on characteristic-defining versus characteristic-changing abilities). More specifically, if my opponent has a Magus of the Moon out, and I have a Forest in play and a Tranquil Thicket in my hand, can I cycle the Tranquil Thicket?

[TrialByFire]

While we're on the subject of Magus of the Moon, does Magus of the Moon work in all zones? (I'm always a bit fuzzy on characteristic-defining versus characteristic-changing abilities). More specifically, if my opponent has a Magus of the Moon out, and I have a Forest in play and a Tranquil Thicket in my hand, can I cycle the Tranquil Thicket?

Yes you can cycle. Magus only works on lands that are in play. Its a characteristic changing ability like Humility.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, Blood Moon affects land permanents, not land cards outside of the in-play zone.

[Maveric78f]

Sorry but I don't get the answer of the original question. Urborg and moon's effects are both independently applied in the same layer and then should both apply, in the timestamp order.

If Urborg's timestamp is older then, I think that all basic lands are swamp in addition and that all non-basic lands are only mountain.
If Urborg's timestamp is newer then, I think that all basic lands are samp in addition and that all non_basic lands are mountain and swamp.

The fact that moon removes the ability of urborg would be implied in the following layers, unfortunately for moon's ability, where urborg has no other effect.

[quicksilver]

Magus of the Moon removes Urborg's ability.

Magus of the moon removes all abilies from all nonbasic lands, this is why the card is good, if it didn't so it then there would be no point other than to allow your lands to tap for red. And since magus removes all abilites from non basic lands it removes urborgs ability too! Time stamps do not matter since the magus will always remove urborgs ability. What you seem to be describing here is a senario in which urborg still has the ability to make things swamps, which it will never have if magus is out.

[Maveric78f]

"Magus of the Moon removes Urborg's ability" in the same layer than the one where the urborg's effect is applied. Maybe, it's a dependence issue, but anyway your explanation is not satisfactory.

Ps: and read my posts before advocating I don't understand anything.

[Ewokslayer]

Link (http://kcgames.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/alert-updated-ruling-on-urborg-blood-moon-magus-of-the-moon/)

[Nightmare]

It is a question of dependance.

Magus is an independant characteristic setting ability, and the Urborg is dependant on the Magus.

Urborg is a non-basic land, which grants a characteristic to itself and other lands as a function of its own ability. Magus of the Moon removes all abilities from all non-basic lands, regardless of their characteristics. Magus doesn't care what the text box of any given land says, they all become ":r:." Since the Urborg no longer has any abilities, it can no longer set the characteristics of itself or any other land. This occurs upon entering the play field, with no opportunity to grant that characteristic - it is a mountain as soon as its in play.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

[quicksilver]

418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

418.5d An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in “timestamp order” relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.


"applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect"

Applying magus of the moon would change the text or existence of urborg, thus urborg is dependant on the magus.

"An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied"
So urborg is not applied until magus applies it's abilites, thus when urborg goes to apply, it no longer has any abilites to apply.



edit:damn I went through all that trouble of digging through the comprehensive rulebook and you go and find a nice article saying what I just said.

[blac198990]

Well to answer this question with some ruling, i'm pretty sure it matters on order, if the urborg is in play first, then it loses its ability but everything is still a swamp, but if magus came in first, it takes it away before it works. to prove on what I'm sayin go to this link which is the gatherer.wizards.com database and at teh bottom it explains a scenario like this.

ruling (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=131005)

A) That is incorrect.
B) Find your shift key, and use it.

~ Nightmare

[quicksilver]

Well to answer this question with some ruling, i'm pretty sure it matters on order, if the urborg is in play first, then it loses its ability but everything is still a swamp, but if magus came in first, it takes it away before it works. to prove on what I'm sayin go to this link which is the gatherer.wizards.com database and at teh bottom it explains a scenario like this.

ruling (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=131005)

A) That is incorrect.
B) Find your shift key, and use it.

~ Nightmare


In the scenario you are looking at

1.2.2007 If Urborg loses its abilities (for example, it becomes a creature and then Ovinize is played on it), all lands in play, including Urborg, will still be Swamps, but Urborg won't have the ability "Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types." Urborg also won't be able to tap to produce B, but other lands (including those that come into play later in the turn) will. The way continuous effects work, Urborg's type-changing ability is applied before Ovinize removes both the type-changing ability and its own mana ability.

Urborg is losing it's abilities from Ovinize. Ovinize's ability loss effect takes place in layer 5. Urborgs swamp making effect takes place in layer 4 which is why it's effect still gets applied.

In the case of Magus of the moon, the magus is also a type changing effect so it too happens in layer 4 and not in layer 5 as in the example above. It is governed by the rules of dependency as I stated a couple posts up. This is why Urborg does not make swamps under magus.

edit: if you want to read up more on layers I direct you to the comprehensive rulebook section 418.5a.