RIP Magic Organized Play

[cdr]

For those of you that may not have been paying close attention, today Wizards dropped the news (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20080118a) about this year's Premier Events schedule.

They make you read between the lines, but it's hard to get around the fact that:
- Another Pro Tour was cut, now down to three. Two years ago there were five.
- Worlds is in Memphis, Tennessee. Based on the pattern followed for the past ten or so years, it was expected to be in Japan/Asia.
- The Pro Players Club levels were changed completely (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd315), with the net effect being a lower payout. This is after the cut in appearance fees announced last year.
- The Magic Scholarship Series is eliminated completely (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/events/mss).

Now, they're throwing some extra PT points around at Nationals and a little extra money at the summer GPs, but it doesn't do much to cover up the carnage.

You have to wonder what the heck happened, don't you?

[TeenieBopper]

Poker happened.

[DeathwingZERO]

What effect (if any) do you think this is going to have on GP's and the like ever having Legacy events again? With the cuts it's almost seeming like their grasping at new players, trying to get more blood into the tournaments. Do you think they're going to continue supporting us?

[Janos_Wuryon]

You are not being logical. There is no writing on the wall, it is simple business economics. Wizards has no less than 500 people per GP and average near 700 in the us and 900 abroad. Which means they basically always pay for themselves. Occasionally they turn a profit ( huh!! a profit shame on them) sometimes they loss a bit. The PT's are 100% losses for them. all they are doing is shifting focus to have competative play generate more profit and less loss. Its simple economics. Now if the prices increase and the payouts become top 8 only then you can porgnosticate the apocalypse but until then relax and keep playing. Oh and to the other post about the likely hood of another legacy GP i would say that there will be one but it wont be a yearly event, limited attracts more people and will remain the staple. Not needing to own hundreds of dollars of older cards makes other formats more appealing to more players ( hence higher turnouts) Again economically speaking wizards already got their money from us the first go round and while concious of legacy players existance we really are not the driving force behind wizards primary sales. Now if Wizards allows those who profit from the secondary card market ( star city, ebay, cardshark, etc) host and pay some of the costs of the GP's then you might get more Legacy events because these people are the ones who profit from sales of non t2 cards the most.

[DeathwingZERO]

Stuff

To be blatantly honest, from a business standpoint they pretty much lose money on everything but Pre-release and Release events. Most players that are in Pro Tours, GP's, and States are playing with the secondary market, not the primary.

The only logical thing I can think of here is that they are attempting to make the tournament scene more appealing to the casual player. By throwing out more (and easier to get) incentives to play even semi-regularly, and still good incentives for those in the top brackets (some players are already and still will be level 8 now, as they were level 6 before), they are mainly trying to put new blood into the waters.

I have to agree with Teeniebopper though, poker definitely has something to do with the last few years of changes. The fact that a ton of old alumni are now poker sharks and making money is probably swaying a number of the masses into a game that you don't need to keep up to date on, so to speak. Much less resources necessary = much more profits to gain when you're good enough.

All in all, I'm just hoping they're still going over what they want for the tournaments. It'd be nice to see them settle on a particular structure for the tours, but at the same time, I'm liking the idea of actually being able to play more competitively without having to commit everything to it.

[TheAardvark]

You have to wonder what the heck happened, don't you?

They lose money at every Pro Tour. It's not that hard to figure out, frankly.

[Hoojo]

Could be adjustments to the overall United States economy, but that is a hypothesis I haven't looked into. I don't think it will go away completely; I think they are just cutting back to earn some money. As an aside, does anyone think MTGO has played a part in this?

[cdr]

They lose money at every Pro Tour. It's not that hard to figure out, frankly.

Marketers lose money every time they run an ad campaign. They must be morons to keep doing it, eh?

But yes, a significant part of the issue is probably that Hasbro doesn't see the value in having an OP program, or at least one the size it has been.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Akki is correct. In the short term, yeah, it's less investment to have less Pro Tours, but it reflects a belief on the part of someone at Hasbro that Magic's profitability is dwindling. Which in turn actually discourages people from continuing to pursue it as competitively as Poker, where the rewards for high-level competition are growing rather than shrinking. It's definitely a sign of decay. Whether that's temporary, perhaps a sign of Time Spiral and then Lorwyn kind of sucking, or not, remains to be seen. Personally, if I were in charge of Magic, I'd try to focus the next few sets on bringing the game back to it's roots- not in a hokey, fucked up Time Spiral way, but by bringing some real flavor back to the game. I wouldn't go back to the old card frames, for instance, but I would keep the strengths of the new card faces (more efficient use of space, better foils, basically) while getting a new one with more atmosphere; I really miss the old spellbook look we used to have going on. I'd also want to focus more on evocative flavor and complex but streamlined gameplay decisions, rather than incredibly obtuse and needlessly complicated mechanics.

I'd also fire anyone who ever used the term "Mage-punk" in my presence. There's a trick. Maybe you'd get more business if you didn't exclusively market to 15 year old boys and make everyone else feel like a lameass for showing up to tournaments. This is still one of the best and most richly rewarding strategy games ever made. Let's treat it with a little fucking dignity, Wizards. We went from great literary references to shit that would sound oddly lame on Dragon Ball fucking Z in the flavor text, for God's sake.

[mikekelley]

IBA I totally agree.

I don't even give a fuck about buying new cards to be competitive anymore...I guess my interest is waning due to lack of interesting new sets/loss of the old themes that I loved pre-8th frames. Oh well.

[Shugyosha]

I'd also fire anyone who ever used the term "Mage-punk" in my presence. There's a trick. Maybe you'd get more business if you didn't exclusively market to 15 year old boys and make everyone else feel like a lameass for showing up to tournaments. This is still one of the best and most richly rewarding strategy games ever made. Let's treat it with a little fucking dignity, Wizards. We went from great literary references to shit that would sound oddly lame on Dragon Ball fucking Z in the flavor text, for God's sake.

Yea, that is the biggest problem imho. The thing is that they are still capable of printing good new cards but most of them are bad or fucked up in one way or another.
I think they should have decreased the number of cards per edition some time ago. There are cards so bad nobody would play them. Even in draft or sealed.

And flavortexts just got worse with Lorwyn/Morningtide. The german card names for Morningtide (although I give a fuck about german cards) are among the worst I've ever seen.

[MattH]

I'd also fire anyone who ever used the term "Mage-punk" in my presence. There's a trick. Maybe you'd get more business if you didn't exclusively market to 15 year old boys and make everyone else feel like a lameass for showing up to tournaments. This is still one of the best and most richly rewarding strategy games ever made. Let's treat it with a little fucking dignity, Wizards. We went from great literary references to shit that would sound oddly lame on Dragon Ball fucking Z in the flavor text, for God's sake.
Could not agree more with this paragraph, every little part. Good job.

Here's a question for the ages: what's worse flavor text - the horrible fucking puns (Werebear, that one aven from torment with the "polly wanna cracker" joke), or the replace-your-brains-with-concrete stupid ones like 7th edition Fear and Gorilla Titan?


And flavortexts just got worse with Lorwyn/Morningtide. The german card names for Morningtide (although I give a fuck about german cards) are among the worst I've ever seen.
Example?

[Peter_Rotten]

I do miss the Bard and random pieces of great lit being quoted. :frown: They let me pretend to be smart, so I would love to see a return to tthat type of flavor text.

[Barook]

Hooray for yet another "Magic is dying!"-thread!

Sure, Wizards can still make good cards, but they're already recycling their themes in a 5-year cycle (it was already strongly hinted that Shadowmoor is going to be graveyard-based -mirroring Odysse). And good flavor is more and more dwindling.

And aside from making some good cards sometimes, Wizards fails hard in everything else they've ever done. Their marketing is one of the most horrible ones I've ever seen (e.g. Morningtide commercial, Pro Tour cards, etc), their official board is down like 90% of the time and MTGO is programmed so badly that it hurts, yet they make MODO 3 just more fancy and shiny instead of fixing the base code and adding stuff that is actually useful and absolutely required.

[Slag]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that magic is dying out, but wizards certainly is squeezing it harder, probably because of the lack of success in the company's other card games. The recent surge in must-have cards like tarmogoyf and thoughtseize suggest that they need to sell more products, and they've probably decided to trim the fat off their sponsored tournaments to cut overhead. Independently, magic ought to be very easy to make a profit with, considering how much it costs to make the cards versus how much they sell for. However, wizards has got to make up for the gambling they do with these other games(I'm looking at you, Hecatomb).

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'd also fire anyone who ever used the term "Mage-punk" in my presence.

WTF is a Mage-punk?

[scrumdogg]

Fewer Pro Tours? Waaah, so what? When they eliminate the Pro Tour be concerned, until then it doesn't affect the vast majority of even tournament focused players. Fewer Pro Tours? Makes for a longer PTQ season, that balances out. GPs seem just as numerous & well supported. GPs are a more acheivable goal for most of us anyway. MSS/JSS/obnoxious-underage-sharks-cheating-their-compatriots gone? Again, so what? No loss truly. IS FNM still going strong? Yes? Then Wizards is still supporting the largest part of their tournament focused consumer base.

[MattH]

WTF is a Mage-punk?

It's their lame idea of what a Magic wizard should be: an in-your-face mage with attitude. Basically, they want every wizard to be a mix of Jaya Ballard and Ertai.

The idea was supposed to set Magic wizards apart from, say, D&D wizards.

Yes, it is lame.

[Pinder]

It's their lame idea of what a Magic wizard should be: an in-your-face mage with attitude.

Is that anything like a group of teenagers with attitude (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfOACVCOJsM)?

[hi-val]

It would be fantastic if Hasbro could get Magic on ESPN or like hell, the Travel Channel like WSOP. Look at what it did with a boring game containing only 52 cards and no deckbuilding decisions!

As far as secondary people paying for pro tours, the vendors at sites rent space from the TO. That helps finance renting the venue as a whole and defrays the cost a little. I encourage people to buy from vendors instead of backpackers when cash transactions are concerned for this reason.

[Shugyosha]

Example?

Moonglove Changeling = Mondfingerhut Wandelwicht

Retranslated something like: Moonthimble Changewight (Changeling should be translated as Wechselbalg or Formwandler)

Most german translations just sound soo shitty that they are even funny again...if you happen to be 15 or so.

[MattH]

Fingerhut omg. <3

[edgewalker]

Didn't it used to be on ESPN or something, I remember I saw it being on played TV once. This was around Masques block though.

[Fons]

Didn't it used to be on ESPN or something, I remember I saw it being on played TV once. This was around Masques block though.

I belive it was on ESPN 2.

[edgewalker]

ahhh, those where the days. I could go from power lifting right into a MTG tournament.

[Hoojo]

I agree with the sentiments regarding maturity. The game as felt more anime in recent years. The fact that every set has to have several new abilities is getting a little silly too; too much time spent creating weak mechanics than great storytelling.

[Shriekmaw]

Didn't it used to be on ESPN or something, I remember I saw it being on played TV once. This was around Masques block though.


I believe the coverage from Worlds 97 & 98 were on ESPN. Since it didn't really catch on, that was the end of Magic: The Gathering coverage.

To be honest, I found the coverage to be terrible and if your not someone that is familiar to the game, then it was a waste of time.

I would love to see it back on TV, thats because I'm a player that loves to play this game.

[Jak]

I believe the coverage from Worlds 97 & 98 were on ESPN. Since it didn't really catch on, that was the end of Magic: The Gathering coverage.

To be honest, I found the coverage to be terrible and if your not someone that is familiar to the game, then it was a waste of time.

I would love to see it back on TV, thats because I'm a player that loves to play this game.

They have the videos on youtube if anyone cares. The coverage was bad. I watched them a while ago when I first started playing. I had no clue what was going on. Thinking that this was on ESPN made me laugh. I think it would be cool on a channel that shows obscure games. I doubt it though since that would cost money and apparently Wizards doesn't have that :rolleyes:

[freakish777]

too much time spent creating weak mechanics than great storytelling.

How about fun mechanics and fuck the storytelling? Good storytelling doesn't make fun games. If you want good storying telling then go r-e-a-d a b-o-o-k.

[Nihil Credo]

Also, when did Magic ever have anything resembling good storytelling? It's been the epitome of shitty cookie-cutter awful 'young adult' terrible fantasy since day 1.

In terms of flavour, the best we can expect is a good setting that provides cool visuals and interesting conflicts, and I think they have delivered that from Kamigawa onward. Ravnica in particular was an amazing setting for a classic D&D adventure - like Planescape, except with less of those metaphysical foundations which make for great reading and mediocre roleplaying.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How about a focus on creating an enjoyable playing experience? From my perspective, that means creating complex and challenging gameplay decisions and an enjoyable, engaging atmosphere. The former could be done without ever creating another keyword ability, which are in truth rather more distractions to good gameplay rather than aids at this point, and the latter would be better acchieved without the painfully cheesy "Mage-Punk" philosophy. Althoug, give Morningtide credit, as far as I can tell it seems like the first time in a while that there's not some world-destroying threat of unstoppable evil that requires an unlikely band of heroes to band together and set aside their differences to blahblahblah.


Also, when did Magic ever have anything resembling good storytelling? It's been the epitome of shitty cookie-cutter awful 'young adult' terrible fantasy since day 1.

Up until about Invasion, really. I mean, not really Shakespearean level plot, but at least until then it wasn't pandering shit. Odyssey had a decent plot, at least, though.

[Nihil Credo]

Up until about Invasion, really. I mean, not really Shakespearean level plot, but at least until then it wasn't pandering shit.
The Weatherlight saga? Slap a bunch of characters together and expect that a vaguely sensible plot will magically appear from thin air? I'll pass, thank you. Kamigawa proved even writers-for-hire can do so much better.

[Hoojo]

How about fun mechanics and fuck the storytelling? Good storytelling doesn't make fun games. If you want good storying telling then go r-e-a-d a b-o-o-k.

I've read many of the Magic the Gathering novels, and have enjoyed several of them. There are some pretty good stories and they are reflected well in the cards.


Also, when did Magic ever have anything resembling good storytelling? It's been the epitome of shitty cookie-cutter awful 'young adult' terrible fantasy since day 1.

Some of the older stories are really good. I enjoyed Jeff Grubb's work quite a bit. Not everything you read has to be groundbreaking.

[Sims]

I've tried reading the books... The only one I could actually read and enjoy was Chainer's Torment.

Anyways. Less senseless keywords and slight rehashes of older keywords to try and make things "interesting". You want to use Fading? Use Fading. Don't create Vanishing just to make it slightly more in flavor with Suspend. You wanna do something that has to do with the graveyard? Well they you've already got Flashback, return effects, dredge, and Bridge that can work as a template.... I don't want to read in the spoiler for the next set (after morningtide) that there is gunna be a cycle of 5 cards with Gravedigging- X; you know, where when you play the card from your hand you return a creature from your graveyard to your hand! Because Gravedigger is a pile and they want to tack his ability onto other probably crappy creatures with other crappy abilities they haven't yet thought of.

And flavor text..... More Moby Dick quotes, less jokes about wanting a banana THIS big.

[FoolofaTook]

How about WoTC just kills the DCI and gets back to printing good cards? We can organize our own tourneys and have the big national tourney at Gen Con every year.

[freakish777]

I've read many of the Magic the Gathering novels, and have enjoyed several of them. There are some pretty good stories and they are reflected well in the cards.

That's exactly my point. As far as I'm concerned, Magic the Gathering is a game and a game only. I have nothing against books based on the game. But when you want to read a story, you pick up a book. Guess what I don't want to do when I pick up any game? Be told a story (because whatever story you're trying to tell through a game is just about guarenteed to be 100 times worse than any number of books I could be reading instead). This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Role Playing Games, they are essentially glorified highly structured story-telling sessions. Mechanics and mechanics alone are what make gameplay good or bad. That doesn't mean storytelling can't contribute to the game, but it has nothing to do with the gameplay.

[Hoojo]

That's exactly my point. As far as I'm concerned, Magic the Gathering is a game and a game only. I have nothing against books based on the game. But when you want to read a story, you pick up a book. Guess what I don't want to do when I pick up any game? Be told a story (because whatever story you're trying to tell through a game is just about guarenteed to be 100 times worse than any number of books I could be reading instead). This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Role Playing Games, they are essentially glorified highly structured story-telling sessions. Mechanics and mechanics alone are what make gameplay good or bad. That doesn't mean storytelling can't contribute to the game, but it has nothing to do with the gameplay.

I disagree. I've played games that may not have the greatest game mechanics but EPIC storytelling (Planescape: Torment) and have enjoyed them more than games that were "built" better. Telling me to go read a book instead of playing magic if I want a story is just like saying I should go play chess or *insert favored strategy game here* instead of playing magic if I want mechanics.

Back on topic, anyone know how magics popularity in Japan or Europe is going? I understand they moved worlds, but I seem to remember Japan having more PTQs and such.

[mikekelley]

I'm pretty sure people wouldn't want to play magic if there wasn't any kind of story behind it. It's an integral part of the game, and the fantasy part of it is why we're all interested.

[emidln]

I'm pretty sure people wouldn't want to play magic if there wasn't any kind of story behind it. It's an integral part of the game, and the fantasy part of it is why we're all interested.

Most of the people I know, myself included, play Magic because it's a highly addictive strategy game with random elements. The game itself always changes, even after hundreds of games with the same two decklists. Add in that it promotes a social atmosphere and geeks like me love it. I'd bet that's the story of a lot of people on this site.

[mikekelley]

Most of the people I know, myself included, play Magic because it's a highly addictive strategy game with random elements. The game itself always changes, even after hundreds of games with the same two decklists. Add in that it promotes a social atmosphere and geeks like me love it. I'd bet that's the story of a lot of people on this site.

Yes, my point exactly. You're kidding yourself if you think the fantasy element has nothing to do with it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh noes the game is dying!

Magic actually has a large number of fundamental limitations placed on it, the two biggest being player capabilities and rules. Rules by their nature exist to limit the number of acceptable actions in a given scenario. With the exception of the Un- sets, Magic has largely stayed within its rules framework, simply because violating the rules too often would lead to too much variability in game play, and ultimately to a breakdown of the game itself. Think of it as if you were playing "Slugbug" with someone, except the other person could hit you for any type of car, could change the type of car they were hitting you for without notice, and didn't ever have to tell you what car or cars they were looking for. While it might be entertaining at first, it would quickly degenerate into something that isn't fun or playful.

The second limitation - the players - is probably the more important. Theoretically speaking, the game could support almost unlimited levels of complexity, provided the players playing it had an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and the capacity to keep track of hundreds if not thousands of interactions at any one time. However, probably 99% of the people who play this game can never come remotely close to that. This leads to a second problem: given rules limitations, the simplest levels of game play become rapidly exhausted, and you are forced to either make more complex cards or rehash things you've already done. The latter would make people lose interest too quickly, whereas the former rewards veterans and strategic thinkers but punishes casual players who don't necessarily play Magic for the mental acrobatics involved. My overall impression of recent trends in Magic (especially in Lorwyn and Morningtide - having those two in limited is going to be a headache for interactions) is that the game is tending towards complexity because the simplest mechanics and levels of game play have been mostly - if not thoroughly - explored.

In other words, Magic is reaching the upper limit on what you can do with the game. There's really no "virgin" design space left, and each set is being forced to explore whatever particular aspect of the game it touches on in a far more deep and complex light simply to stay "fresh." Really, if Wizards wanted to avoid having this happen for as long as possible, they should have cut down on the number of expansions they release per year to three or even two. Going up to four simply means you'll mine all of the possibilities faster and back yourself into the corner we're beginning to see (where things get repeated every few years).


I agree with the sentiments regarding maturity. The game as felt more anime in recent years. The fact that every set has to have several new abilities is getting a little silly too; too much time spent creating weak mechanics than great storytelling.
Where's mah neko girls? ;-;

On a more serious note, there are people who play the game solely for the game and not the story (myself included - I don't give two shits about Magic story). People like this would get bored with a game where the same design elements were rehashed over and over again, just with new people and places each time. In Wizards' retarded parlance, this would pander primarily to the "Vorthos" crowd while leaving a large segment of Johnnies out in the cold due to a lack of creative room in the game. It would tend much towards D&D, where the only "new" aspects of any given quest as compared to any other are the stories.

[Janos_Wuryon]

it never ceases to amaze me the depth of intellect and the hieghts of stupidity that people involved in the same activity can reach about the same topic. The points about the limitations of the game, the waste of resources on doomed projects ( everything else wizards does) and the level of player maturity and involvement are all great points. Then someone mucks it up by saying it would be better to can OP all together for self organized tournements and a yearly gen con event??? are you reading the thread cause it' s about how that exact scenario would be devestatingly bad for magic. so to add my own two cents in to this.

Without company supported OP the game would become a non-game in less than a month. all high level players would drop it like a flaming pile of poo. No reward no reason to continue. Following that exodus those of us playing at the next level or two down would soon realize that devoting time and resources to a game where you could, at best, hope to score some packs at local event or maybe even a few bucks would spell the end for thousands of hard core players. That would leave the game with a devoted base of casual players who are just as content to rock out with their all banding deck as they are to buy new product. By years end the secondary market ceases to exist, no more forums, no more content, no more future. Magic would then go back to what Garfield intended, a quick diversion for geeks to enjoy during D&D breaks. I do not want to see this vision become reality. Think about what you are proposing, just cause the last few sets havent added anything rediculous to your pet deck does not mean they are bad.

on to my next point. Every card serves a purpose. Every piece of crap they print has reason and neccessity. We exist as competative players because of the crap, the fluff story, the funny art. Without the millions of dollars pumped into the game by the "other" side of the magic community we are blessed with the luxury of playing the game for money and with possessing cards that have a value beyond their printed cost. We should really be thanking every single random who strolls through the door, pays his money and smiles when he loses.

and finally if changing the prize structure gets more people to show at the GP's great and to hell with the PT's. I want more than anything to break through to the next level but If having the Op suffer so that the elite few can keep having high pay events then let them dwindle. Even though less events means less shots to qualify each year lossing the OP entirely is not worth it.

[Mr.C]

You know, for me the game ended on Apocalypse. Seriously. I *really* enjoyed following a storyline (of sorts). It was interesting to see the characters in the books reflected in the cards. I've read a few Magic books. The Gathering Dark was GOOD. So was Eternal Ice and Shattered Alliance. Apocalypse was meh. The first Mercadian Book was decent, too. When odyssey came out, I though 'OMG, squirrels? Pit fighters? Dementia masters? Wtf, this sucks. Then came Mirrodin. A Metal Plane. With Robots. Oh my God. Then Kamigawa. Argh. Fox Wizards? RAT NINJA SAMURAI??? WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING! have you ever seen a RAT NINJA? Heck, Turtle Ninjas would be better. An then Ravnica. I saw that image of Ravnica on the website, the one with the gigantic city thing, and I was excited for the first time in years.

Finally! They will stop making year-long storylines, and go back to making a long story, instead of killing off all the heroes in one block.

WRONG!

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

And so, Ravnica lasted a block. And then Time Spiral. Let's get a bunch of old secondary characters and mash them together.

And then Lorwyn.

:(

Maybe I'm wrong, but people actually liked following the Weatherlight Saga. People actually liked reading the little booklets that came with the Precons, and then reading the books, because there was actually a consistent story behind it. Now, there's nothing. A bunch of heroes and villains which will be dead in a year. Yay.

/end rant.

Sorry if i didn't make sense, it's 1:30, and I've been playing Hearts of Iron 2: Doomsday with a Modern Day mod, because it's much more fun than slapping down a Lhurgoyf that looks like a T-Rex after doing lots of drugs for the millionth time and swinging in for the win.

[FoolofaTook]

Without company supported OP the game would become a non-game in less than a month. all high level players would drop it like a flaming pile of poo. No reward no reason to continue. Following that exodus those of us playing at the next level or two down would soon realize that devoting time and resources to a game where you could, at best, hope to score some packs at local event or maybe even a few bucks would spell the end for thousands of hard core players. That would leave the game with a devoted base of casual players who are just as content to rock out with their all banding deck as they are to buy new product. By years end the secondary market ceases to exist, no more forums, no more content, no more future. Magic would then go back to what Garfield intended, a quick diversion for geeks to enjoy during D&D breaks. I do not want to see this vision become reality. Think about what you are proposing, just cause the last few sets havent added anything rediculous to your pet deck does not mean they are bad.

Magic grew explosively in the mid 90's with no company supported play at all, other than promos at the main gaming conventions.

This concept of "you have to setup a structure for 16-22 year old players to play in before they inevitably LEAVE to go play poker or something else" is just silly.

You completely discount the incentives for local merchants and tournament organizers to support the game when they can basically do it their way, without worrying if they're going to cause a problem with WoTC that then trickles down the distribution chain to them. I know people who were told that they'd have trouble getting product if they didn't support the DCI early on and stop wildcatting tournaments.

[C.P.]

Magic grew explosively in the mid 90's with no company supported play at all, other than promos at the main gaming conventions.

This is not mid 90's. There are million other time killers that are much more cheap and just as entertaining as magic, if it were to reduced into unofficial, personal level. The heck, even monopoly will be better.

You cannot support an active playing environment without someone's dedication. Usually, this is a store owner. But if wizards stop giving Pro Tours and player base shrinks, then store will lose merit in the game and stop supporting tourneys. Then what? Are you going to support the weekly tourneys? It just does not work in personal level, unless you have, like absolutely no life. Even if you mange it, it will disapper after you leave the town for some reason. This is coming from personal experience, and I'm sure this is what will happen if DCI is not there.

[Zach Tartell]

You cannot support an active playing environment without someone's dedication. Usually, this is a store owner. But if wizards stop giving Pro Tours and player base shrinks, then store will lose merit in the game and stop supporting tourneys. Then what? Are you going to support the weekly tourneys? It just does not work in personal level, unless you have, like absolutely no life. Even if you mange it, it will disapper after you leave the town for some reason. This is coming from personal experience, and I'm sure this is what will happen if DCI is not there.

This is exactly what happened with SWCCG like seven years ago. They stopped printing the cards, though, so I guess the situations were a bit different.

I just started to give away my own stuff to keep people coming to tournaments. It worked for a while, but then I startedd being unable to build decks because of my altruism. That sucked.

I can't see the DLD's stopping, though. It's not like Wizards supports them anyway.

[Ewokslayer]

Akki is correct. In the short term, yeah, it's less investment to have less Pro Tours, but it reflects a belief on the part of someone at Hasbro that Magic's profitability is dwindling. Which in turn actually discourages people from continuing to pursue it as competitively as Poker, where the rewards for high-level competition are growing rather than shrinking. It's definitely a sign of decay. Whether that's temporary, perhaps a sign of Time Spiral and then Lorwyn kind of sucking, or not, remains to be seen.

Is there any actual evidence that sales are down or is it just based on the biased belief that Time Spiral and Lorwyn suck?

I recall reading fairly recently that Wizards of the Coast was one of Hasbro's most profitable divisions which contradicts your belief.

I also don't really think that poker is that big a factor. Yes, so pros are going to go into Poker, but why is that bad? Pros in magic are easily replaceable and their success in Poker increases the image of Magic as a strategy game.



Now, they're throwing some extra PT points around at Nationals and a little extra money at the summer GPs, but it doesn't do much to cover up the carnage.

Not only are they increasing the payout at the Summer GPs they are also adding 2 more over the summer.

Also, I don't understand why people didn't expect changes to the Pro Player club since it is a fairly new thing and estimating how much it would cost and how well the levels would work out couldn't be known completely.

[Nightmare]

The sky is falling.

[Ewokslayer]

The sky is falling.

Your lack of exclamation points make me doubt the veracity of your statement.

[Nightmare]

Your lack of exclamation points make me doubt the veracity of your statement.Good. Also, screw you for making me look up the word "veracity" in the dictionary. Dick.

[freakish777]

I disagree. I've played games that may not have the greatest game mechanics but EPIC storytelling (Planescape: Torment) and have enjoyed them more than games that were "built" better. Telling me to go read a book instead of playing magic if I want a story is just like saying I should go play chess or *insert favored strategy game here* instead of playing magic if I want mechanics.

The question isn't whether you enjoyed that game (with said epic storytelling) more than other games. The question is did you enjoy it more than the last great book you enjoyed reading?

Telling you to go read a book if you want story-telling is inherently different from telling you to "go play game X if you want mechanics instead of game Y." That statement is non-sensical because mechanics are what set apart two different games (game X has mechanic x[0], x[1], x[2]... x[n], game Y has y[0], y[1]... y[n], not game X has mechanics and game Y doesn't, if game Y doesn't have mechanics, then it's not a game), where the plot, setting and characters (and to a lesser extent theme) are what set apart two different books. I would only recommend you go play game X if you actively said "I want a game with mechanic x" or I would suggest you go play Chess if you were complaining about how "Magic is all luck, the pros only win more often because they cheat" (::cough:: Cody Mannion ::cough::). Conversely if you complained that Magic were too skill intensive for your tastes, I'd recommend you go play some Roullette at a Casino. All games have mechanics, it is what define them as games. All novels have a story to tell, it is what defines them as novels.

Telling you to read a book if you want story, however, isn't much different than telling you to play Go or Chess if you said you wanted a game that is 100% skill and you don't care about story.

If there is a story in a game, I can live with that. Just it shouldn't be the primary focus of the game (hence I don't like RPGs, stories aren't what make games tick), and it shouldn't overshadow the gameplay. If anyone has seen the movie The Gamers, you'll have an idea of what I'm talking about (when the GM won't let his character shoot some Villain, because his villain is giving a speech). There is something inherently free form about the act of playing, taking that away from players simply to make concession to story makes the game less enjoyable. Imagine if Magic followed some grand storyline in which all the different colors of Magic were constantly fighting each other. As the game grew, the rules evolved in such a way that you could only play one color in a deck, and whenever you played against someone else, you had to make sure you each had enemy color decks (you play blue, your opponent must play red or green). Does this sound familiar? Star Wars TCG anyone? How has that game been doing, popularity-wize, anyone know? The Legends rule? You can only play 1 of a Legend in your deck? Yeah, that rule was based on story elements (characters), and it got tossed out the window pretty fast, because it cut into the gameplay in a negative way even though it made sense from a flavor perspective.


Yes, my point exactly. You're kidding yourself if you think the fantasy element has nothing to do with it.

For me specifically, no I'm not. I couldn't care less if every card had it's names, card types, etc were all replaced by the likes of the following (but the text remained the almost identical):

XRTRE^%$&^
WROWEI86576
Destroy all THERTE's. They can't be regenerated.

And all the art were completely removed.

And had the same rules: WROWEI86576's & THERTE's may only be played during your turn, during one of your main phases, when the stack is empty. During each turn, each player gets one attack step. During the declare attackers step, that player may tap as many non-wall non-defender THERTE's as they choose (thus declaring it as an attacker). Etc.

I would find the game just as interesting, and have fun playing it. The concession I will make on this topic is that due to the fact that it matters to other people (and you need at least 1 other person to play this game with), that I'm generally happy with how Magic has turned out (story included). Essentially, I will always believe story is 100% superfluous (and overrated) when it comes to games. Its a nice little bonus when its able to be fit in, but it should never interfere with the gameplay. Oh but I'm sure no one plays these games because there's no story:

Chess
Go
Every Classical Card Game Ever (ie, Poker, Hearts, Blackjack, Euchre, etc)
Every Sport Ever
Tetris
Pacman
Unreal Tournament (do people play this for its amazing story? I'd love to know)

right?

[Nightmare]

Your particular interests in this game do not define the scope of what should and should not be focused on. There is value in having a storyline to flow along with the mechanics of the game, regardless of the worth of the story as an individual element. You, as a player, do not get the option of deciding which facets of this game are important, and for good reason, as you've just proven that your understanding of game marketing is impossibly flawed.

If Magic had no storyline or flavor sewn into it from day one, it would never have seen the light of day. This is a fact. Do with it what you will.

[Versus]

I'm surprised MTG has lasted this long. Not because of anything WOTC has/hasn't done, I just figured it would die out. When I found my old cards last year and reignited the spark I figured when I went online I'd find the game was over and done. I never had reason to look for it in stores and if I did see it I must have just dismissed it.

@baritone: Even if MTG were to go down, amongst the thousands of cards I own, I still don't think I'd be as fucked monitarily as SW:TCG. I must have broken open 3 boosters from every expansion. Every theme pack, starter set, foils of each main character and weapon, ect. The day Decipher stopped printing that game was like the Death Star powered up and shot me right in the dick.

[Ewokslayer]

The argument that Chess has no flavor is false.
Granted the flavor is mostly superfluous in this day and age, but the pieces are still Kings, Queens, Knights, Bishops, etc., and not White Piece 1, White Piece 2, etc.
It also was a game that merged mechanics and flavor to an extent
i.e. the movement of the Knight.

[mikekelley]

right?

Wrong. none of the games you listed are really comparable to a game like magic. There are no new mechanics introduced into poker or chess, I'm not going to go on a rumor board and see that "stars" are a new suit of card to go alongside spades, diamonds, etc.

And nightmare posted what I was going to post anyway.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that the fantasy/sci-fi facet of magic had SOMETHING to do with you picking up the game at first. And if not, I'm so, so, sorry.

[Nihil Credo]

Flavour is mostly useful as a memory aid. You can replace it with any other sort of reference - say, science fiction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/438) - and it would work just as well.

No-one would play with WROWEI86576, but that's exclusively because it isn't easy to remember.

[Nightmare]

Flavour is mostly useful as a memory aid. You can replace it with any other sort of reference - say, science fiction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/438) - and it would work just as well.

No-one would play with WROWEI86576, but that's exclusively because it isn't easy to remember.Which is exactly why the story is important to this game. Sure, there are some shitball themes and plotlines in the storyline, but you sure as hell know who Gerrard is, who Squee is, who the brothers in The Brothers War were, what kind of planet Mirrodin was, what the main economic stabalizer of Mercadia was (and for that matter, what Mercadia was), who's heir Korlash is, and who won the battle when the Kami came through the spiritual rift.

Now let me ask you - what is the offensive status level of M3X42C?

Edit - By the way, if we're breaking the flavor and story out of the game, then your card wouldn't say "destroy" or "regenerated."

XRTRE^%$&^
WROWEI86576
Place all THERTE's in their owner's discard pile. Effects which would prevent this have no effect.

[freakish777]

@Nightmare:


The concession I will make on this topic is that due to the fact that it matters to other people (and you need at least 1 other person to play this game with), that I'm generally happy with how Magic has turned out (story included).

Did you skip over that? What I was trying to get at was, that I would personally still play the game even if all of the fantasy elements had never been there in the first place. I am perfectly willing to admit that it wouldn't have been anywhere near the success it is if not for them, but that for me personally, I derive zero joy from that aspect.



The argument that Chess has no flavor is false.
Granted the flavor is mostly superfluous in this day and age, but the pieces are still Kings, Queens, Knights, Bishops, etc., and not White Piece 1, White Piece 2, etc.
It also was a game that merged mechanics and flavor to an extent
i.e. the movement of the Knight.

Flavor sure, my point was more so that if one is playing Chess for it's profound storyline of 2 warring armies, than that person has the intellect of a five year old, and yet it is still a successful game.


Wrong. none of the games you listed are really comparable to a game like magic. There are no new mechanics introduced into poker or chess, I'm not going to go on a rumor board and see that "stars" are a new suit of card to go alongside spades, diamonds, etc.

And nightmare posted what I was going to post anyway.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that the fantasy/sci-fi facet of magic had SOMETHING to do with you picking up the game at first. And if not, I'm so, so, sorry.

No, they aren't comparable in terms of the rate of evolution or the mechanics involved. I was comparing popularity and the focus on story for those games. I would argue that atleast half I actually mention by name on that list if not more are more popular than Magic by far. Again, my point is that story isn't what makes games tick, and therefore shouldn't be the primary focus when designing and developing games. As for the mechanics of those games changing, Chess has undergone quite a bit of evolution. It hasn't exactly "added new pieces" like Magic has "added new card types" (Planeswalkers, Tribal), but the rules have changed to make the game faster paced and more enjoyable (Castling, pawns moving 2 squares on their first move, en passant, etc). Additionally, if you don't want to play the "good-old fashioned way," there's tons of variations out there for you to try if you're looking for something new (Bughouse, Fischer Random, etc).

No, fantasy had nothing to do with me getting into this game. I started playing because I saw some other people playing and thought it looked like a fun strategy game.



but you sure as hell know who Gerrard is, who Squee is

Only because Wizards jammed it down our throuts in Weatherlight by having every other card have those characters on them.



what the main economic stabalizer of Mercadia was (and for that matter, what Mercadia was)

I have no clue what the economic stabalizer of Mercadia was, and Mercadia was some sort of Sea Port?


Now let me ask you - what is the offensive status level of M3X42C?

Clearly its the Hex value C. When it comes into play you must sacrifice any number of THERTE's with a combined offensive status level of at least C.

It's defensive status level is also the Hex value C.

I'm a robot, sue me. I would have just as much fun playing that game as I would a game of Magic (seeing as how they'd have the same mechanics).


EDIT:


Edit - By the way, if we're breaking the flavor and story out of the game, then your card wouldn't say "destroy" or "regenerated."

Sure, those would simply be replaced by other keywords.

Kill all THERTE's. They Can't be protected this turn.

[Nightmare]

Did you skip over that? What I was trying to get at was, that I would personally still play the game even if all of the fantasy elements had never been there in the first place. I am perfectly willing to admit that it wouldn't have been anywhere near the success it is if not for them, but that for me personally, I derive zero joy from that aspect.
I read it, I just don't believe you. There is no way you would have been interested in this game to begin with were it not, to some degree, for the flavor. No 13 year old thinks "gee, this game looks cool. It's a strategic battle of limited resources, fleshed out by an indecipherable alphanumeric code that makes retention of mechanics impossible for anyone without a Mensa membership card." They think, "COOL! I'M A WIZARD, AND I GET TO KILL MY ENEMY! AND THE ARTWORK IS COOL, TOO!"



Flavor sure, my point was more so that if one is playing Chess for it's profound storyline of 2 warring armies, than that person has the intellect of a five year old, and yet it is still a successful game.It also has about 1/1200th the amount of game pieces.


I'm a robot, sue me. I would have just as much fun playing that game as I would a game of Magic (seeing as how they'd have the same mechanics).And how, without introducing some flavor or story, do you name those mechanics? Kill and Protect still imply more than math being involved.

[Hoojo]

Telling you to read a book if you want story, however, isn't much different than telling you to play Go or Chess if you said you wanted a game that is 100% skill and you don't care about story.


This is exactly what I was trying to say.

I'm glad your brought up the fact that you would be happy with a game with no flavor or story, as I was going to ask if you would be happy with Lightning Bolt or Damaging Card.

Nightmare stated exactly how I feel regarding this facet of the game.

[freakish777]

I read it, I just don't believe you. There is no way you would have been interested in this game to begin with were it not, to some degree, for the flavor. No 13 year old thinks "gee, this game looks cool. It's a strategic battle of limited resources, fleshed out by an indecipherable alphanumeric code that makes retention of mechanics impossible for anyone without a Mensa membership card." They think, "COOL! I'M A WIZARD, AND I GET TO KILL MY ENEMY! AND THE ARTWORK IS COOL, TOO!"

(In response to COOL I'M A WIZARD!") Ew, no, I was 11 when I saw it in middle school, a member of my Chess club and looking for another game like Chess.



It also has about 1/1200th the amount of game pieces.

And is still more popular? This isn't to say that I think Chess is the better game. I think Magic is by far, because there's a broader range (by far) of strategies you can attempt to apply.

How do you take the better game and make it just as popular as the game that has stood the test of time as the strategy game? You have to market it well. Which is why I agree with Akki that cutting PT stops is the wrong thing to do.


And how, without introducing some flavor or story, do you name those mechanics? Kill and Protect still imply more than math being involved.

Again, flavor sure (similar to Chess relying on the flavor of knights on horseback jumping over barriers/people to get the movement of the Knight correct), story not necessarily. Story is a nice bonus, but it shouldn't interfere with the gameplay itself.


EDIT:


I'm glad your brought up the fact that you would be happy with a game with no flavor or story, as I was going to ask if you would be happy with Lightning Bolt or Damaging Card.

My counterpoint for you, would you rather have a card named Lightning Bolt or "Urza's Lightning" as what we now know as the card Lightning Bolt? Going overboard on the flavor can be detrimental (see Kamigawa Block, Weatherlight) as well. Let me add that story shouldn't detract from the game either. If there's a card name that places a character's name on the card, or a card name in plain english, and both fit and describe the card perfectly, I would have to argue that giving the card the english name more often than not is correct to attempt to bring in as wide an audience as possible.

[Nihil Credo]

Which is exactly why the story is important to this game.
No, that is why flavour is important to this game. Chess has flavour, but no story. Of the things you listed I don't know half of them, and I bet most MtG players know even less.

Ravnica, Time Spiral and Lorwyn all sold pretty well, but unless you read the novels, you never learn anything about the story. All the cards did - all that they needed to do - was presenting a background so that WotC can use the word "Orzhov" instead of "Black/White Guild", or "Boggart" instead of "Mostly Black-Aligned Goblins".

[Nightmare]

The story gives scope and depth to the flavor. Granted, the overarching storylines are at best tangental to the gameplay itself, but the depth of flavor that exists in the game would not be feasable without the storylines.

[Nihil Credo]

The story gives scope and depth to the flavor. Granted, the overarching storylines are at best tangental to the gameplay itself, but the depth of flavor that exists in the game would not be feasable without the storylines.
I will again point to Ravnica, Time Spiral, and Lorwyn as counter-examples to this claim. Everything that you can find on the cards exists independently of the storyline, as if the world were static. Radha, who IIRC is the protagonist in the TSP novels, gets as much space on the cards as any other random Legend. Ditto on that elf outcast from Lorwyn.

[Nightmare]

I will again point to Ravnica, Time Spiral, and Lorwyn as counter-examples to this claim. Everything that you can find on the cards exists independently of the storyline, as if the world were static. Radha, who IIRC is the protagonist in the TSP novels, gets as much space on the cards as any other random Legend. Ditto on that elf outcast from Lorwyn.I like how you quoted me, and then said the same thing I said, but made it seem like I was disagreeing with you.

the overarching storylines are at best tangental to the gameplay itself, but the depth of flavor that exists in the game would not be feasable without the storylines.
This means, basically, that the stories exist as a way to further flesh out the world the characters in the game represent, and not the converse.

[Lego]

Pacman

There is obviously (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man_%28TV_series%29) a story here.

And for what it's worth:

what the main economic stabalizer of Mercadia was (and for that matter, what Mercadia was)

Nope


who's heir Korlash is

Uh-uh


and who won the battle when the Kami came through the spiritual rift.

No idea.

[emidln]

Yes, my point exactly. You're kidding yourself if you think the fantasy element has nothing to do with it.

What does fantasy have to do with being a geek? I really hate most fantasy games. I barely play RPGs (computer or pen and paper) at all (exception being Earthbound). I even dislike anime. I'm a computer geek. I get bored and look at new innovations for network stacks or find some neat piece of hardware so I can attempt a driver for it. If WoTC completely eliminated the fantasy aspect and made it a game based on modern warfare with spells being varying weapons I would be happy.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing that made Magic great was not that it was fantasy or sci-fi but that it allowed you to customize a deck, originally from just about any 40 cards, and compete over the counter with anybody who showed up at the game shop you frequented.

The first major change in Magic was when the original deck building rules (at least 40 cards, any combination of cards, ante cards or not depending on how you were playing) morphed into the current 60 card minimum and the 4 of a non-basic land that defined organized competitions.

Whoever came out with the first game of this type would have made a mint if it was supported with frequent releases of cards as Magic was. Anybody who came after had to improve on the original or fail.

There was no need for WoTC to strangle freeform Magic competition in the manner that they did with the DCI. They did this so they could print as many sets as they wanted and "guarantee" that they'd always have a captive audience for that product. Well, surprise, surprise, that captive audience is no guarantee either, but the ability for new players to enter the game has been sharply restricted by the endless rules sets that endless card sets with new mechanics creates.

WoTC would have been better off without the collectability of the ultra-rare cards and just reprinting 99% of the cards into perpetuity with a new set every year or two. Magic would be stronger with 4,000 cards right now and a rules set that was a quarter the size of the existing one with correspondingly fewer mechanics and keywords.

Chess is chess because the original designers resisted the urge to create new pieces every year and give pawns shadow...

[T is for TOOL]

What does fantasy have to do with being a geek? They can escape from the reality of their lives by envisioning a world where other people might actually respect them and they might even have the chance to interact with girls.

[kirdape3]

I'm pretty sure that Magic is the undisputed king of the CCGs because it's always renewed and hasn't resisted the urge to do such overwhelming reprints. Why would people buy new cards if there's a large chance that the new cards are going to be the same as the old cards?

FWIW, a huge percentage of the MTG community is made up of completely casual, kitchen-table gamers. But even they would be put off from buying new cards if they were going to open eight reprints out of a fifteen card pack all the time.

Core Sets are useful fodder for getting new players into the game and potentially getting some higher-value rares into their collection, but you can't sustain a game on them.

[Pinder]

They can escape from the reality of their lives by envisioning a world where other people might actually respect them and they might even have the chance to interact with girls.

Girls that shoot fire.

edit - Oh, and:



And for what it's worth:


Nope



Uh-uh



No idea.

This guy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2870), bartering, and the humans, respectively.

[Nihil Credo]

I like how you quoted me, and then said the same thing I said, but made it seem like I was disagreeing with you.

This means, basically, that the stories exist as a way to further flesh out the world the characters in the game represent, and not the converse.
Yeah, I *am* disagreeing with you, because I'm claiming that the stories are utterly pointless. I am saying that you can have an excellent setting without any sort of overarching story behind it. The last three blocks all but do that; for another example, you can look at Planescape.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm pretty sure that Magic is the undisputed king of the CCGs because it's always renewed and hasn't resisted the urge to do such overwhelming reprints. Why would people buy new cards if there's a large chance that the new cards are going to be the same as the old cards?

FWIW, a huge percentage of the MTG community is made up of completely casual, kitchen-table gamers. But even they would be put off from buying new cards if they were going to open eight reprints out of a fifteen card pack all the time.

Core Sets are useful fodder for getting new players into the game and potentially getting some higher-value rares into their collection, but you can't sustain a game on them.

Core sets are brilliant at causing an explosion of interest whenever the conditions are right, and drawing a large number of players suddenly into the game.

Numerous expansions are brilliant at confusing people and turning them off when they realize that a) they are playing with inferior cards in a limited environment and b) it's going to be expensive as hell to chase the out of print rares they need to catch up in the unlimited environments.

As soon as a new player realizes how small a percentage of the cards he owns and how expensive it'll be for him to catch up he begins to lose interest in the game. Do some people drift in and stay? Sure, but many more people drift out, or never really drifted in in the first place.

There should be a core set of about 600-1000 cards that are reprinted constantly and that are the entire playable set of cards for high level tournament play. The remaining 3000 cards or so should be for casual players who really want to play dwarves or elves or zombies or skeletons or whatever and who are not interested in tournament play.

You want a LOT of people to play in tournaments? Make the cards you need to do that readily available and only add cards to that subset occasionally and then only with great deliberation.

[TheGhostofChristmasPast]

There should be a core set of about 600-1000 cards that are reprinted constantly and that are the entire playable set of cards for high level tournament play. The remaining 3000 cards or so should be for casual players who really want to play dwarves or elves or zombies or skeletons or whatever and who are not interested in tournament play.


Can this even work? How do you determine which cards are competitive versus which are casual? What kind of format do you envision? Power nine? Legacy staples? Extended based cards? How do you go to a system like this when there is already one in place?

IMHO, Wizards is doing exactly what they should do to keep the game going; increase the money available to the semi-pro players via more Grand Prix tournaments while at the same time produce sets like Lorwyn for more casual players.

[The Rack]

Who the fuck cares about flavour? I'm not a nerd who in his spare time reads books about an already nerdy game. Flavour doesn't make tarmogoyf any better or any more interesting just tarmogoyf. Same for everything else in Magic. I'll play cards because they are good not because they match with the storyline. My 2 fucking cents.

[Pale Moon FTW]

So Wizards is focussing on the "normal" tournament players instead of the small elite of pro players. I can live with that.

[Janos_Wuryon]

I think many of you are having a "can't see the forest for the trees" moment here. Every aspect of the game is important to different people in different ways at different times. I was hooked by the Craw wyrm. I still get a fuzzy nostalgia when I see one. The fantasy theme and art made me want to explore further and now it is almost a non factor. I still love cool fantasy art, but I would play cards that have terrible artwork if they were good cards. I could care less about the fluff story ( crying hobbits, elves with horns, blehh). For others its the other way around. I saw plenty of people at the pre release get giddy over the clans, the races, the artwork. For them that is the game, mechanics and card power are secondary. All the aspects are vital to the games survival in some fasion. The OP and players club changes are nothing more than corporate strategies to bring profits up and costs down. And Ill state as fact no matter how much corps make it is alway less then they wanted. ( ie. Oil company profits 30billion and bitches that they could have made more. again 30 BILLION in PROFIT= Not enough)

[Wallace]

I think many of you are having a "can't see the forest for the trees" moment here. Every aspect of the game is important to different people in different ways at different times. I was hooked by the Craw wyrm. I still get a fuzzy nostalgia when I see one. The fantasy theme and art made me want to explore further and now it is almost a non factor. I still love cool fantasy art, but I would play cards that have terrible artwork if they were good cards. I could care less about the fluff story ( crying hobbits, elves with horns, blehh). For others its the other way around. I saw plenty of people at the pre release get giddy over the clans, the races, the artwork. For them that is the game, mechanics and card power are secondary. All the aspects are vital to the games survival in some fasion. The OP and players club changes are nothing more than corporate strategies to bring profits up and costs down. And Ill state as fact no matter how much corps make it is alway less then they wanted. ( ie. Oil company profits 30billion and bitches that they could have made more. again 30 BILLION in PROFIT= Not enough)

I totally agree with what your saying here. We both started playing about the same time and it looks like for the same reasons too. I for one just love the game (I hate mana) I could care lees what the cards look like and I don't really card about the story line. To me he art is fine, sure there are some cards that are just ugly (Tarmogoyf & Countryside Crusher) that doesn't mean i'm not going to play with them.

I see and here a lot of people bitching about this change to the level changes and prize payouts, o well. Unless you actually play on a pro to semi-pro level you really shouldn't card. The changes to the JSS were needed, I remember several JSS event where 6 people showed up, 6! Now with the age bumped to 18 turnouts are much higher...o and for you Merwin:

<><><><><><><><><>http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/2E/en-us/Card441.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=441#)

[mikekelley]

This thread makes me want to sell all my thousands of dollars of cards and start a nice bankroll for some poker.

[Shugyosha]

Some of the renowned Pro players have founded a Player's Union that will most likely discuss the recent announcement in the PT schedule with WOTC at PT Kuala Lumpur


Forum thread regarding the announcement:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=979798

MTG Player's Union:

http://mtgplayersunion.forumandco.com/



I think this is a very good move and I trust the Pro's on this as long as they don't start to whine about Legacy :wink:

[freakish777]

I see and here a lot of people bitching about this change to the level changes and prize payouts, o well. Unless you actually play on a pro to semi-pro level you really shouldn't card.

Why should we not care? For those that aspire to become pros, it's a disincentive to put more time and energy into becoming better.

I love this game, and want to see it prosper for a long time. It's my opinion that increasing the payouts for competitive play is the superior marketting strategy to incentivise more people to play. So why should I not care about a move that potentially harms the game (let me stress the word potentially, I obviously can't say with any certainty that it will). The argument that "Wizards just loses money on the PT's so of course they cut them" would be similar saying "Toyota loses money on every commercial they buy airtime/ad-banners for, so they should stop paying TV Networks and Google to advertise for them." Magic is a great game/product, I'd just hate to see it go away (or not do as well as it could) because Wizards can't market/advertise it properly.

[Nightmare]

I've registered on the site, and I hope to get involved in the discussion where Legacy's interests can be benefitted. Obviously this only effects us indirectly, but we are part of this Magic community too.

[raharu]

They can escape from the reality of their lives by envisioning a world where other people might actually respect them and they might even have the chance to interact with girls.

Ummmmm... No. There is a boundary between the old sterotype and the current reality. A decent sized portion of the new players have a pretty good social life, even if they don't get laid every day. Some of the new players are actually popular/ well known and attractive. Personally I'm in the middle of talking to 2 people on myspace, and the other week I had a conversation on myspace about when Ravager Affinity was still legal in standard with a Nick Venier (look 'em up) with 10K+ friends and 30 body signs on his profile page from hot girls. The point here is that WoTC is fucking up by targeting the players that they currently target. They are targeting the geeky, nerdy kids with no life, when they should be increasing the availability to the rest of the player base, older veterans and young "Scene kids" included.

[Afro]

Personally I'm in the middle of talking to 2 people on myspace.


So because you are on myspace makes you popular? Wow...

[raharu]

So because you are on myspace makes you popular? Wow...

=/= point. The point is that I have a life outside magic, and so do a whole lot of other players. I'm not the typical "nerd". The point is that I'm not spending 40 hours a week on runescape. The point is that the demographic that WotC needs to target is opposite of the demographic that they currently do.

[Van Phanel]

So because you are on myspace makes you popular? Wow...

Even though the part of raharus post about him personally didn't quite add to his statement, the statement as such is very much correct.

I also registered on the PU (Players Union) site and would ask you guys to do the same thing. I don't think legacy won't be directly affected, the end of the pro tour would kill any opportunity for us to ever see a GP again (be it in in Europe, the US or wherever). Also even though worlds didn't bring much innovation to the format, it still was interesting what pros would do when forced to take a lok at the format.

A Union of players brought into existance by pros (namely Raphael Levy) is a great chance for all (semi-)competitive players to make their voices relevant to WotC.

- Van

[Afro]

So beacuse you'r an adept means you can post an insult without looking at the actual point of what was said? Wow...

Even though the part of raharus post about him personally didn't quite add to his statement, the statement as such is very much correct.


Me being an adept has no effect on someone coming on here and stating that because they are on Myspace that they are cooler or less nerdy than any other magic player. There are a lot of things wrong with Wizards if you ask me. Don't turn this into a flame war.

[Michael Keller]

Magic is only taboo if you have no confidence in yourself. It's a game. I've gone out to bars and engaged in conversation with women about it. They don't care. If you make them think it's cool then they'll believe anything you say. Make her believe how cool the retro factor is. There should be no argument or discussion on this because if you have confidence in yourself, then none of this really matters.

But once you actually have a girlfriend, then she'll hate it because it takes all of her time away from you.

[Afro]

Magic is only taboo if you have no confidence in yourself. It's a game. I've gone out to bars and engaged in conversation with women about it. They don't care. If you make them think it's cool then they'll believe anything you say. Make her believe how cool the retro factor is. There should be no argument or discussion on this because if you have confidence in yourself, then none of this really matters.

But once you actually have a girlfriend, then she'll hate it because it takes all of her time away from you.

QFT

[mikekelley]

Magic is only taboo if you have no confidence in yourself. It's a game. I've gone out to bars and engaged in conversation with women about it. They don't care. If you make them think it's cool then they'll believe anything you say. Make her believe how cool the retro factor is. There should be no argument or discussion on this because if you have confidence in yourself, then none of this really matters.

But once you actually have a girlfriend, then she'll hate it because it takes all of her time away from you.

this is the best post in the entire thread.

[TheAardvark]

I was going to mention this in my original post way back on page one, but was time-pressed and never went back to post about it.

WotC lost loads of cash when they tossed millions down the tube with the wholoe Dreamblade debacle; I am pretty sure that a lot of this can be contributed to trying to recoup from that fiasco.

Just saying.

[Nihil Credo]

Ironically, didn't Dreamblade tank because its OP sucked?

[TheGhostofChristmasPast]

Ironically, didn't Dreamblade tank because its OP sucked?

As a former Dreamblade player, 4th at the 50k, it was my experience that the game didn't die because of O.P. but because the entry cost was so damn high. $15 boosters and $30 starters is too much money to bring casual gamers in; without which a collectible game cannot survive.

It is unfortunate too as it was one of the best games I played all of last year. :frown:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is there any actual evidence that sales are down or is it just based on the biased belief that Time Spiral and Lorwyn suck?

I recall reading fairly recently that Wizards of the Coast was one of Hasbro's most profitable divisions which contradicts your belief.

I didn't say it was my belief. I said that Hasbros' actions tends to reflect a lack of confidence in the long-term health of their product.

[Barook]

The sky falling or not, something I noted is the massive increase of non-magic-related advertising on their site. They even added this advertisement on the top of their page and in the articles. :confused:
Seems like they really must make money.

Heck, even today's Card of the Day sounds like bad advertisement for Morningtide, but we're used to stupid advertisement from Wizards already.

[freakish777]

Even Evan Erwin is calling Wizards out on this one (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15391.html)

Like the guy (and his "articles") or not, I think it's problematic when a business move prompts your customers to respond negatively...

[Van Phanel]

Wait they didn't censor him?

On the Player's Union forum I heard of at least three different people (Nightmare among them) who got their article censored in order to cut anything about the Union.

Strange, still a good thing Erwin was allowed to say what he wanted.

[TheAardvark]

Wait they didn't censor him?

On the Player's Union forum I heard of at least three different people (Nightmare among them) who got their article censored in order to cut anything about the Union.

Strange, still a good thing Erwin was allowed to say what he wanted.

Who would censor him? He is not affiliated with WotC, so they have no say in what he does or does not put in the video. SCG isn't going to censor one of their most popular features to any large degree; they censor "inappropriate material", typically.

[Nightmare]

Both me and Artowis had the parts of our articles adressing the union cut out this week.

[Phantom]

Both me and Artowis had the parts of our articles adressing the union cut out this week.

Any chance you can elaborate on exactly what you wrote and why they cut it (and how/if they informed you and if there was any debate?)?

[Nihil Credo]

Both me and Artowis had the parts of our articles adressing the union cut out this week.
WHAT THE FUCK

[Nightmare]

Well, Josh posted that his was cut, and I submitted mine with the caveat that it addressed the Union also, and that I knew Josh's was cut, so figured mine would be, too. Then it was. That's really it.

[quicksilver]

What is this union you speak of?

[freakish777]

http://mtgplayersunion.forumandco.com/

Made by Raph Levy.

Also, as far as censoring goes, SCG is going to have a hard time censoring a YouTube video that they don't actually have access to. I would assume that has something to do with it, but I could be wrong.

[Ewokslayer]

It could have also been that Evan was doing his entire article on it and thus it didn't need to be in other people's articles as well.

[etrigan]

It could have also been that Evan was doing his entire article on it and thus it didn't need to be in other people's articles as well.

That's a reason not to censor Evan's article (you have to publish something), not a reason to censor others.

[Janos_Wuryon]

I am sadly a little behind on this, While I think the changes to the PT is not as detrimental as it would seem but the player club changes and the GP restructure is not what I thought at first glance. While I do not think this is a death knell for the MTG OP program I do feel this will have a hugely negative impact on the sub-Pro community. As far a censoring of information is concearned that is just the worst thing you can do! Letting people vent and then countering may allow for the salvation of an unpopular decision but preventing the distribution of Ideas can never be overcome. I am saddened to see this occuring.

[Janos_Wuryon]

Hey I missed something what site censored Nightmare/artowis? sorry to sound inept but I want to know is it SCG that did it or a WOTC related site?

[TheAardvark]

I know a lot of you don't care about this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=events/magic/states), but it's directly related to everything we've discussed.

Christ, what's next? No more Regionals? That way, City Champs and rating would be the only way to Q for Nationals. Good times.