[Discussion] Where should control go from here?

[Whit3 Ghost]

As I was talking to people throughout the Running GAGG, I noticed one general trend: disgruntled Landstill and Control players. With the previously cakewalk Threshold matchup gaining tools which greatly improve their control game in Stifle/Waste, Blood Moon and Counterbalance, in addition to a faster clock with Tarmogoyf, what does the control archetype need to do to remain a viable contender?

[URABAHN]

As I was talking to people throughout the Running GAGG, I noticed one general trend: disgruntled Landstill and Control players. With the previously cakewalk Threshold matchup gaining tools which greatly improve their control game in Stifle/Waste, Blood Moon and Counterbalance, in addition to a faster clock with Tarmogoyf, what does the control archetype need to do to remain a viable contender?

How funny, I was talking with Nantuko Shady and my mates about this. Shady nearly finished my sentence when I asked him about Landstill having trouble finishing off opponents. I went to time three times at Winter Wonderland and nearly went to time twice at the Running GAGG. Being more proactive might be the solution. How about playing more threats like Tarmogoyf and maybe Hoofprints of the Stag? Maybe it's better the cut weaker threats like Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory, and Faerie Conclave. But if you're going to run fewer manlands, you're going to need to drop Hoofprints or 'goyf, then play Standstill. At that point, aren't you playing Fish? And if you're going to play Fish, why not just play Gro?

[clavio]

Mighty Quinn. It doesn't really care about nonbasic hate. Wing shards are very good against threshold. It can get a lot of "cheap" wins with scepter/chant game one.

[Zork]

I think the problem with playing control is that no set of answers can reliably lockdown multiple strategies while also winning the game. I think this is why decks that add aggro into the strategies of controlling the game tend to do better. Examples:

Bad + Aggro -> Good

Blue Control + Green Aggro -> Thresh
Stax + Red/Blue Aggro -> Stompy
Black Control + Green Aggro -> Eva Green

I can't think of any others.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think multiple things need to be discussed here:

Win Conditions- Do you go for synergy in Manlands or raw power in Tarmogoyf?
Counter-base- Are you running Counterbalance/Top?
Draw Spells- Standstill, Meditate, or something completely different?
Manabase- Do you run 3-4 colors or go back to something more oldschool?
Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

[Deep6er]

I think control should just evolve to deal with the changing metagame. Find a way to deal with Threshold and Dragon Stompy (not necessarily the best deck, but more along the lines of Blood Moon + Chalice type decks) and you've found the metagame winner. That means cutting down on the "cool" effects for the strong and consistently powerful effects. I think it means shoring up manabases to how it used to work when Goblins (and thus Wasteland + Port) were EVERYWHERE. It'll take some concentration, time, and effort, but it can be done.

[Bardo]

Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

I am by no means an authority on every possible configuration of Landstill, but if I know anything, it's that my version of the deck kicks the steaming piss out of Threshold. A pity, really, since I love playing Thresh.

"Mostly Monoblue Control"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
3 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

It's almost hard to lose.

CounterTop, Tarmogoyf, Deed/EE/Shackles, and Eternal staples such as Brainstorm and Force make for a monster deck.


I think it means shoring up manabases to how it used to work when Goblins (and thus Wasteland + Port) were EVERYWHERE. It'll take some concentration, time, and effort, but it can be done.

I agree, which is why I've moved away from the more versatile 4c versions of the deck for the time being, with the rising use of Blood Moon effects around.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I was going to write a whole thing about this, but I'm too lazy so I'll just spew out my ideas.

Due the the fact that decks are so varied in Legacy, straight control decks need utility cards that fit multiple roles. Vedalken Shackles is removal that doubles as a reusable win condition. Jace is a source of card advantage that win be a win condition. Wasteland is disruption and mana.

Following this logic, Mishra's Factory is one of the best cards for a control deck. It's mana that doesn't come into play tapped, a win condition, and an emergency blocker. Crucible of Worlds [which makes land based utility more powerful and inevitable] and Barbarian Ring is removal, a win condition, and mana.

Pointing out cards with multiple uses is the easy part. Putting them all together in to something good is the hard part. Of the cards I just listed, you need a blue red mana base with a good amount of Islands and Wasteland and Mishra's Factory. Assuming twenty four lands, two of which are Barbarian Rings, three of which are Wastelands, and four of which are Factories, you have thirteen other lands that need to be Islands to support Shackles, and red to support Rings. This is what a list could look like so far;

24 Land
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Volcanic Islands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
5 Islands

12 Spells
3 Jace
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Crucible of Worlds

That leaves you with fourteen other slots for sweepers, counterspells, burn, or whatever is needed to control.


This post was a lot more "stream of consciousness" then I intended, but I wanted to get the concept out before I forgot it.

[Deep6er]

I am by no means an authority on every possible configuration of Landstill, but if I know anything, it's that my version of the deck kicks the piss out Threshold. A pity, really, since I love playing Thresh.

"Mostly Monoblue Control"

It's almost hard to lose.

CounterTop, Tarmogoyf, Deed/EE/Shackles, and Eternal staples such as Brainstorm and Force make for a monster deck.



Out of curiosity, did you know that you're list is REMARKABLY similar to the one that I played at the Mana Leak Open? Astounding. Y'know, just saying. :)

Anyway, those are most of the cards that I advocate control running nowadays in order to combat the rise of anti-control measures being run. So... yeah. Seriously though, like REALLY SIMILAR. :)

[Pinder]

All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red? I mean, in 4c Landstill builds the only color they don't run is red. Adding red (some sort of URx control or something) can make it so you can still play your cards (some of them, at least) through a Blood Moon or Magus thereof. It gives you Bolt or whatnot to get rid of the Magus, but unfortunately red has absolutely no way I can find of removing Enchantments (unless they're blue).

Just a though, I'm not sure if it could work or not.

[Bardo]

Due the the fact that decks are so varied in Legacy, straight control decks need utility cards that fit multiple roles. Vedalken Shackles is removal that doubles as a reusable win condition. Jace is a source of card advantage that win be a win condition. Wasteland is disruption and mana.

I may be biased, but I completely agree: strategic hybridization and versatile cards that manage the game state and generate card advantage at the same time are the way to go.


Out of curiosity, did you know that you're list is REMARKABLY similar to the one that I played at the Mana Leak Open? Astounding. Y'know, just saying. :)

Nope, MMUC is an extreme evolution of my old U/b/g Tog decks from days of old, with a recent adoption of some of Chapin's ideas in 1.x.

Any similarity would be good minds thinking alike. :)


All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red?

I'm not too excited to return to 2004. I'd rather just rework my mana.

[Whit3 Ghost]

All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red? I mean, in 4c Landstill builds the only color they don't run is red. Adding red (some sort of URx control or something) can make it so you can still play your cards (some of them, at least) through a Blood Moon or Magus thereof. It gives you Bolt or whatnot to get rid of the Magus, but unfortunately red has absolutely no way I can find of removing Enchantments (unless they're blue).

Just a though, I'm not sure if it could work or not.
I don't think so, as Red doesn't have many tools in matchups outside of Goblins. I guess you could run some sort Quake effect if your meta has a lot of Goblins/Chalice Agro and a smattering of Thresh, but if it's mostly Canadian and Blood Moon Thresh, then Red doesn't really offer anything overwhelmingly positive in that matchup. Plus, Magus isn't really Landstill's issue, it's the Magi's legless brother which can really give the deck fits.

EDIT- I also think that we might see an increase in two color control, with maybe a small splash soley for EE at 3 and possibly opposite Blasts or Kgrip. Also, Wasteland just got a lot worse against Threshold.

[AnwarA101]

I'm not suprised to see a thread like this started. Control decks have been less successful than the other archetypes in Legacy since its inception. I compiled my thoughts about Legacy control in an article that was published by StarCityGames, The Perils of Playing Control (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14808.html). I only point this out to show that its very relevant to the problems control is having namely the wrong answers and lack of an efficient win condition. When you play control in Legacy you invariably get into a position where either you have the wrong answers or you just don't win the game fast enough when you do have relevant answers. These problems have to be solved before control can really be a solid choice.

[raharu]

A decline in 4c control is inevatable. Really, a core blue deck with splashes of black and white (so you can run just basics) and B2B would be fairly powerful in the current metagame. Restructuring the manabase is mandatory at this point. I believe that Counterbalance + Top is going to be a majior piece in the new generation of control decks, and because of this the curve is going to narrow out/ compress, most likely topping out at 3 for Meditate. The win conditions will have to be rethought, and the control "Idealogy" will have to be rethougt as well. With decks becoming faster and faster, the "control for x turns, slowly eat life total" is starting to fade out (as we have seen) because it's not working as well anymore. Control can't wait until the opponent runs out of gas and then use superior late-game resources to win. I'm pondering if the idea should now be to "assist" the opponent in fizzling faster, possible speeding up the control deck, not by agression, but by facilitating the deck's natural habitat (them with nothing, you with heaping mounds of resources).

Maybe I'm totaly wrong, maybe I'm a idiot savant. Thoughts?

[URABAHN]

Win Conditions- Do you go for synergy in Manlands or raw power in Tarmogoyf?

I think 'goyf is a must-have. Goyf absolutely, positively needs to be answered in a timely fashion. Run it out there, force your opponent to Wrath, Swords, or whatever. 1 for 1 means it's done it's job. Nantuko Monastery is also a legitimate threat. Run both!


Counter-base- Are you running Counterbalance/Top?

I think Counterbalance/Top is a must-have. At least run it in the sideboard. It's a very good and very broad answer to combo.


Draw Spells- Standstill, Meditate, or something completely different?

Standstill is the best draw spell in the game, but I don't think playing it and sitting back on a Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice is the way to go.


Manabase- Do you run 3-4 colors or go back to something more oldschool?

As UGR Moonthresh proves, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can run a 3-4 color deck, just make sure you're not going to scoop to Blood Moon.


Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

I don't think beating Thresh is the problem, dedicated control is still favored against Thresh. The problem is all the other decks in the format seem to have improved.

[Nightmare]

I'm just gonna run this out there - URABAHN, you're describing the exact series of thoughts and considerations we made when we developed TEC. I get bagged by you guys about it, but it seems as the resident 4c Landstill player of NoVa, you may come around. Test it out.

I think the reason Blood Moon was such an issue for me this weekend wasn't that I couldn't handle it, it was more that I wasn't prepared for it. I think I am now.

[Finn]

The manabases of decks have been running rampant since the increased popularity of Deed began. Control naturally gets hit the hardest here, wanting their counterspells and board sweepers too. People have been running tighter and tighter mana as more colors have been involved. The popularity of Moons (and Wasteland) makes perfect sense and will continue to harm anyone who thinks he can manage without giving those cards enough respect. When the respect arrives, the pendulum will swing the other way for a while and the cycle will continue. Until then, you have The Disk.

Control is hard as hell in this diverse environment. The recent successes were a mirage brought on by moving the inherent weakness from the top (firepower) to the bottom (manabase). Now that the meta has caught up, you can continue to expect this natural decline since losing a color weakens your game.

Oh, and all those control decks are essentially the same deck. You will never find the perfect 60 cards. To Jace or not to Jace. How many Vedalken Shackles...etc. MMUC, whatever? It's Landstill. EPIC Control? It's Landstill.

[Nightmare]

Oh, and all those control decks are essentially the same deck. You will never find the perfect 60 cards. To Jace or not to Jace. How many Vedalken Shackles...etc. MMUC, whatever? It's Landstill. EPIC Control? It's Landstill.
You're ill-informed. TEC doesn't run any more of the cards that Landstill runs than Threshold does. In fact, it runs exactly 8. (4 Force, 4 Swords). How can you even begin to pretend that the two are even remotely the same?

Edit - Yeah, maybe that came off a little harsh. Still, the two decks are similar in overall strategy, and nothing alike when it comes to game play or specific action plans. You're taking some liberties with your theory that aren't yours to take.

[zulander]

I get bagged by you guys about it, but it seems as the resident 4c Landstill player of NoVa, you may come around.

Lol so true. He and I were actually discussing TEC over lunch today but he's in love with the card standstill.

[Finn]

Adam, it is honestly more my perception from facing off against all the same cards in a lot of decks all going by different names and wondering why folks bothered. But look at this:

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Wrath of God
Swords to Plowshares
Engineered Explosives

...are all taken from your opening post on Landstill on this site

Vedalken Shackles
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Hoofprints of the Stag
[your entire sideboard]

...are all cards I have seen either in posts on this site or in play across from me in Landstill matchups. It's all variations of the same theme. I can't even remember which is which anymore. Mucho-Color control is so mercilessly rampant right now I can't tell them apart. I don't mean this as a belittlement to your deck. I can see the work you did. I can see that you strove to be different from Landstill. You aren't attacking with lands, and you are not using the namesake card, but it's hard to avoid being control in blue and not fall within the bounds of Landstill from a strategic point of view in the eyes of the opponent. It can be made into anything.

The bottom line is that facing different versions of Landstill is a wider range than the difference between Landstill and any other blue-centered control deck in the format.

[Nightmare]

I forgot Brainstorm. If you'll notice, most of the posts including the cards you mentioned (Shackles, CB, Hoofprints) are either by me, after I put CB in Landstill, or after I released my list for TEC. My point is, similarities aside, I think TEC is the next evolution of Control in this metagame. The manabase actually can be made even more bullet-proof than it is, by the way, which helps even more against the new Blood Moon hotness.

[Finn]

Well, the direction any control deck should be going would be to resistence and/or answers to Moon effects. If can afford to have more basics as you say, you are probably right. If Wizards had not misprinted the mana symbols of Tarmo, you would be down to two colors. Find a creature in W or U for that role, and I would say you have found the future. Of course only green has a 2-mana house, so you are stuck like everyone else.

Also, zulander, you created Vijay's brother-in-law?

[Bardo]

Oh, and all those control decks are essentially the same deck. You will never find the perfect 60 cards. To Jace or not to Jace. How many Vedalken Shackles...etc. MMUC, whatever? It's Landstill. EPIC Control? It's Landstill.

I think it's helpful to differentiate between breeds of the same species. Like a Chihuahua is not an Australian Cattle Dog, you know?

MMUC, which is a bit more akin to mid-range control, is not UW Landstill that wants to win the game with Eternal Dragon or Decree of Justice on turn 20.

[zulander]

If Wizards had not misprinted the mana symbols of Tarmo, you would be down to two colors. .

Also, zulander, you created Vijay's brother-in-law?
1. How did they misprint it? Please don't tell me it should have been blue or white...

2. Yes, I am the creator of Vijay's brother in law. Which makes me Vijay's father in law.


I think it's helpful to differentiate between breeds of the same species. Like a Chihuahua is not an Australian Cattle Dog, you know?

MMUC, which is a bit more akin to mid-range control, is not UW Landstill that wants to win the game with Eternal Dragon or Decree of Justice on turn 20.
QFT. A deck that plays ug(r/w/b) is not automatically threshold, just like a control deck playing standstill is not automatically landstill.

[Bardo]

1. How did they misprint it? Please don't tell me it should have been blue or white...

According to Mike Turian, one of the developers for Future Sight (from an episode of the Magic Show), Tarmogoyf was a */* for 1GG for most of the time it was in the set, then it got yanked to put one of the Planeswalker in its spot (I think, Garruk), then R&D yanked the Planeswalker to do tweaking and refinement to rules around Planeswalkers. To fill the Planeswalker hole they added Tarmogoyf back to the card file (since it at least referenced Planeswalkers in the rules text) and shaved a green mana and a point of power.

To Finn's point, at 1GG Tarmogoyf would have nowhere the same appeal as he does at 1G. That single green mana makes a world of differences (in terms of splashing, raw p/t : cost ratio, etc.)

To further clarify, Tarmogoyf at 1G was not a misprint, it was a deliberate decision. R&D just underestimated Tarmogoyf's potential for stupidity.

[Deep6er]

The question was actually why you didn't hang on to them. You say you knew it was broken. I'll come right out and say it. I didn't think it was broken. Since you had the upper hand there, you should have just held onto them. Even if you didn't think they would spike in price, I'm sure you can realize that a broken card like that could build/spawn new decks. Thus, having a large stash of them would allow you freedom in building those decks.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, this is a pretty fruitless discussion. We can't really TALK about how control will evolve, because we all have to SEE where the meta game goes. If Threshold and Dragon Stompy remains forces to be reckoned with, we'll see who comes up with the necessary foil. I'd LIKE to believe that the foil exists with such a diverse card pool available, but then again, I could be wrong. After all, even though it's a pretty diverse card pool, a great deal of it sucks. So, maybe this is what we're going to have to work with. C'est la vie.

[legacyplayer0]

I thought this thread was about control. I guess I was wrong.


Thanks. I can always count on you to remind me how far we've strayed. :) - Bardo

[raharu]

Faster win-conditions are needed, simply because being faster allows you to take advantage of an off-ballance opponent. Control has always aimed to cripple decks thn slowly kill them with resilient win-conditions because they had the time. Unfortunately control no longer has that time. This is a list I threw together in my spare time today that I hope will serve to show some concepts I would like to introduce into the control mindset:

Permission: 10
Daze x3
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Card Advantage: 13
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Branistorm x4
Pyrexian Arena x3
Meditate x3

Removal/ board sweep: 7
Swords to Plowshares x4
Damnation x3

Disruption: 4
Extirpate x4

Threats: 6
Hoofprints of the Stag x3
Tombstalker x3

lands: 20
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x4
Underground Sea x4
Tundra x3
Island x3
Swamp x2
Plains x1

The things that I would like to highlight about the deck conept are as follows:

The manabase: I have 7 fetches and 6 basics, all of whic is done by sticking with allied colors and reducing the number of colors played from 4 th 3 (aside: the deck also stick to a splash of white, inherently avoiding anything with WW in the casting cost). Playing allied colots is generally the best idea because the fetclands are integral, saying that they are all able to fetch out some land or another, and they all fetch a common color (which is handilly blue).

The permission suite: Daze as the early counter, Force of Will as general MVP, and Counterbalance because of it's ability to let you go infinity-for-one with cards in a given range. This in impotrant because you want to gain CA, as always, but it is better than that becase it stops your opponent from resolving a large number of relavant things without expendind much-needed Hardcounters.

The Extirpates: Again, these allow you to stop going one for one with threats/ annoying answers. Another reason that I included these in the deck is because after nailing something relevant, you reduce the quality of thier deck in general, as well as the quality of thier top-decks, furthering the opponent's eventual "Fizzle", after which you promptly win.

The card advantage package: Meditate is three for CB, draws cards en masse, which is good for finding answers, and Phyrexian Arena is recuring draw that works with Hoofprints and doesn't have the voulnerabilities of being a creature (all of which are bad in a conrol deck). That, and now the deck no longer has to worry about revealing important cards with Confidant "draws" (termed "draws" because they aren't actually draws, and don't power Hoofprints because of that), and it can topdeck a Tombstalker/ Force of Will from the extra draws and not care in the least.

The removal: Swords is a Staple of the control archtype (if you run white), and Damnation is another (if you run black as your main splash over white). Against combo and whatnot there are some interesting ideas in regard to the sideboard that I would like to discuss.

The win-conditions: here is where control has always seemed to have a problem (save having the right type of control). Hoofprints of the Stag rewards the deck for doing what it already does (draw cards), with the CA engine the Tokens are in good supply, and the Stags are always coming. Tombstalker pairs well with this because it rewards you for doing something that you should be able to do and should be doing frequently (playing cards/ answering threats), which pairs well with drawing cards. These two threats can be very fast at closing the game (as compared to beating with Factories/ anything else that control has), but also like to be slow-rolled, so they play into whatever role you would want them to take.

About the aforementioned sideboard options for combo. I've seen that control doesn't generally run discard, and after doing a good amount of testing, I know why. It's because the deck is more like Discard splash control, and that's what the decksinvariably become. Discard simply isn't enough to do anything to a broad enough range of decks to warant it's use in anything but discard.dec (and agro, but most of those decks are either fast agro or they run 16/20x discard spells or the like). In the long haul, discard is too weak of a stratgey to carry the deck, and all it serves to do is dilute the deck and make it inconsistant, which is not an adjective control likes to hear about itself. Calling a control deck inconsistant is like calling a woman fat: it is what it is, but dear god don't tell it so. Inasmuch, I will now present these sketchy sideboard concepts and then proceede to explain my logic (or lack thereof):

Thoughtseize/ Duress
Hymn to Tourach

The logic: they eat any and all variants of combo and control (including combo-control, agro-control, and the underplayed agro-combo to a lesser extent). These are the wierd matches for Control, where you either sit and wait for one of you to start loosing resources (Control), or fast combo rips open your face without much you can do about it. Hymn takes card advantage against comtrol, does the same against combo and takes combo pieces, and the pinpoint discard takes permission from control and again takes protection/ combo pieces from combo.

Outside of that last bit, are my arguments are solid, are they not? and what about the discard argument? I'll test each when I get the chance (probably not sometime soon), bit I'm wondering if anyone has had the same or similar thoughts on control as an archtype?

Aside: aren't we forgeting board control deck in this discussion as well?

[Jak]

Daze is horrible in control. You don't want to be behind on land drops when you are running Damnation.

Control just needs to be able to shift roles better. When it has control, it needs to be able to shift into beatdown mode so it doesn't lose control. Stuff like Tarmo is good because of this. It will be hard making a new list for control because it needs to be totally revamped to become the new Landstillish control deck with a ton of counters and draw.

I think man lands are becoming outdated just because they are slow when the format is fast.

[from Cairo]

I think man lands are becoming outdated just because they are slow when the format is fast.

The format has always been pretty fast, the change that I see in terms of man lands power relative to the format, is that they were able to fend off small creatures much more efficiently in the past than they can against Tarmogoyf.

[raharu]

Yeah, Daze is bad, but would you rather run Daze of Force Spike? Maybe Thoughtseize? Argh, those are all bad ideas, but Counterspel is too slow.


Control just needs to be able to shift roles better. When it has control, it needs to be able to shift into beatdown mode so it doesn't lose control. Stuff like Tarmo is good because of this.


Which forces the deck to run a non allied third ofr fourth color, which means the deck invariably gets raped my non-basic hate, which hurts the deck, which is why this thread exists in the first place. I personally would stay away from Tarmogoyf. I think that in a 4c list Tarmogoyf is almost stepping into "The Danger of Cool Things" territory (ALMOST lets not flame that please). Maybe Bardo's MMUC build is the better shell to rebuild the archtype from.

AT ANY RATE, I do wonder of anyone read A) the purpose of that post, or B) what I intended for it to be (a medium to propose new concepts and ideas). Oh well, I guess reading is no longer savage tech...

[Whit3 Ghost]

Yeah, Daze is bad, but would you rather run Daze of Force Spike? Maybe Thoughtseize? Argh, those are all bad ideas, but Counterspel is too slow.

Spell Snare.

[raharu]

Maybe, maybe. That's still not the point though. Not the point at all... Read the post, and see the concets that are presented there. The list is irellevant, but the concepts are not.