Changelings & Class equipments

[Mooglar]

Ok so i read somewhere that if you play a changeling and lets say you have obsidian battle axe that the axe will no be equipped because of some restrictions that r&d put on the changelings, same thing with sage of fables not putting counters on changelings

is this true? does anyone know if there is a ruling pointing this out

Also if u have a class equipment lets say that wizard one and ur opponent plays a wizard can you attach to his creature since it says attach. i know u can only EQUIP to your creatures but it says attach >_>

im so confused cause then i cheated like 50 times with changeling equipment at the prerelease >_>

[Maveric78f]

About the changeling equipment, I am really confused, since I see absolutely no reason for it not to happen. As I am not a rule guru, I won't answer this question, but I have doubts on what you said.

About the attachement of opponent's creature with your equipment's triggered ability, you can do it even though you could not do it with the equipment's activated ability. You are still the controller of the equipment and your opponent is still the controller of his creature.

[etrigan]

Changelings are all creatures types. Warrior and Rogue are creatures types like any other. There is no disctinction in the rules between creatures 'classes' and creature 'races'. They are all types.

[Mooglar]

right i can understand that but i read brainburst i think it was that it said that, so can a big judge answer this xd

[quicksilver]

Ok first, ignore brainburst they are aweful for rules.

Second changeling is a characteristic setting ability and is in effect in all zones. It works exactly the same as if each creature type was printed in the creature type area. It works perfectly with those equipments just as if it was a regular warrior or wizard or whatever.


In short changeling has no funny interactions and interacts just as one would expect it to. It is always whatever creature type something is refering to and should always be treated the same as a regular creature of that type.

Also you can not play the equip ability to equip to a creatre you don't control, however if it just says attach to a creature, you can attach it to creatures you don't control (unless specifically says so). So cards like Obsidian battle axe can be put on opponenets warriors (or changelings) if you so choose.

[Mooglar]

ok cool thx

[Lego]

I think Mooglar could use a little clarification here, although it's possible that by explaining this, I will simply be confusing you more.

The confusion arose, I think, because of a ruling in the Morningtide FAQ. The ruling is that a creature turned into a Wizard through Conspiracy (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/127.html) will not come into play with a +1/+1 counter due to Sage of Fables (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62817&stc=1&d=1198998812). The reason for this is a bit complicated. If you name Wizard with Conspiracy, all creatures will be Wizards when they are in the graveyard, in your library, in your hand, on the stack, or in play. The problem is that Sage of Fables creates a replacement effect that checks as they come into play. For this brief moment of time, the creature is neither on the stack nor in play, and Conspiracy has no effect upon it, so it is not a Wizard when Sage of Fables asks.

As written right now, Changeling works the same way. The creature is every creature type in every zone, but for that moment as it comes into play, Changeling has no effect, so Sage of Fables will not recognize it as a Wizard. Don't worry about this at all though, as this was never the intention of anyone at Wizards, it will presumably be updated in the next Comp Rules update, and most head judges are ruling that this is not the intention of the card (i.e. if you play in a sanctioned tournament, you can be confident that Changelings will come into play with +1/+1 counters due to Sage of Fables et. al.)

All that being said, this interaction never existed in this way with the equipment. The equipment all read "Whenever a [blank] creature comes into play" so they trigger once the creature is already in play, and there's no question that both Conspiracy and Changeling will properly set their creature type at this time.

[Anusien]

You're half right. The rule in question is 419.6i, which says that for applying "As Comes Int Play" abilities you only check the copiable values. The "All creature types" ability is a copiable value, but it wouldn't apply then.

The problem is that this ruling is completely counter-intuitive. Changelings are clearly intended to get counters from Sage of Fables. So they do, and the rules are being tweaked to make this more obvious.

There was never a time when Obsidian Battle-Axe wouldn't attach to a Changeling. Brainburst got it wrong, and I would have posted but their forums are crap.

[quicksilver]

I fail to see how the changeling ability will fail to apply then since it applies in all zones.



419.6i Some replacement effects modify how a permanent would be put into play. (See rules 419.1b–c.) Such effects check only the copiable values of the characteristics of that permanent as it would exist in play. Continuous effects that affected its characteristics in its previous zone or that will affect its characteristics once it’s in play are not taken into account. Replacement effects that have already modified how it would be put into play are taken into account, however. (See rule 503.5.) Some permanents have static abilities that modify how a general subset of permanents would be put into play; such an ability doesn’t affect the permanent itself or any permanents coming into play at the same time as it.
Example: Voice of All says “As Voice of All comes into play, choose a color” and “Voice of All has protection from the chosen color.” An effect creates a token that’s a copy of Voice of All. As that token is put into play, its controller chooses a color for it.

Example: Yixlid Jailer says “Cards in graveyards have no abilities.” Scarwood Treefolk says “Scarwood Treefolk is put into play tapped.” A Scarwood Treefolk that’s put into play from a graveyard is put into play tapped.

Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says “Permanents come into play tapped.” It will not affect itself, so Orb of Dreams is put into play untapped.


I beleive what rule 419.6i is saying (although poorly worded) is that things that only effect the card in play (or it's last zone) won't apply as something comes into play.

For example say there is a card that makes all mountains come into play tapped and there is a blood moon out and you play a wasteland. The blood moon ability won't apply as the land comes into play and thus the land will not come into play tapped. So unlike blood moon, changeling applies in all zones (including the stack) and thus is applied as the card comes into play.

[Mooglar]

Thx for the inputs guys, as long as they fix it ill be happy cause then whats the point of changelings if they cant interact with the rest of the set =)

[Anusien]

I fail to see how the changeling ability will fail to apply then since it applies in all zones.

I beleive what rule 419.6i is saying (although poorly worded) is that things that only effect the card in play (or it's last zone) won't apply as something comes into play.

For example say there is a card that makes all mountains come into play tapped and there is a blood moon out and you play a wasteland. The blood moon ability won't apply as the land comes into play and thus the land will not come into play tapped. So unlike blood moon, changeling applies in all zones (including the stack) and thus is applied as the card comes into play.
I should clarify by saying that this ruling is incorrect. I'm only putting it here because it's interesting. While you could have technically read the rules this way (and the new CR come out on the 1st anyway), most HJs said, "That doesn't make any sense" and overruled it. Anyway, here was the interaction.
Rule 419.6i says that "As comes into play" abilities only look at the copiable values of the card. In this case it's everything printed on the card. Now, you look to the creature and see that it has the Changeling ability, but the Changeling ability is a continuous effect and doesn't apply here. So the game sees Creature - Shapeshifter and awards no counter.

[quicksilver]

Now, you look to the creature and see that it has the Changeling ability, but the Changeling ability is a continuous effect and doesn't apply here.

See that is the part people are reading wrong. The rules states:


Continuous effects that affected its characteristics in its previous zone or that will affect its characteristics once it’s in play are not taken into account.

This is not saying all continuous effects don't apply, it is saying continuous effects that only go into effect in the next or last zone don't apply; this is the whole meaning of this rule. Continuous effects in the stack zone still do apply, such as changeling.

If you look at the example they give with playing a Scarwood Treefolk from your graveyard with a yixilid jailer in play. Now this example shows how continuous effects in the last zone do not apply to the treefolk while it is on the stack.

The blood moon example I gave shows how continuous effects in the next zone don't apply.

This rule never states that continuous effects in the stack zone don't apply.

[Mooglar]

so does it get the counter or not?
LOL sorry im not understanding

[quicksilver]

so does it get the counter or not?
LOL sorry im not understanding

Yes it does.

[Mooglar]

ok Thx =) lol, rulings and errata god why then again >_>

[Pinder]

This rule never states that continuous effects in the stack zone don't apply.

Okay, just to clarify, what you're saying is that continous effects that only affect an object either in the last zone it was in or the new zone it's moving to won't apply to 'As ~ comes into play" abilities, but abilities that affect the object in both the zone it was in and the zone it's moving to will still apply. Right?

[quicksilver]

Okay, just to clarify, what you're saying is that continous effects that only affect an object either in the last zone it was in or the new zone it's moving to won't apply to 'As ~ comes into play" abilities, but abilities that affect the object in both the zone it was in and the zone it's moving to will still apply. Right?

No, only effects that apply while the spell is in the stack zone will apply as the permenent comes into play. So say if there is a card that says "all cards in play and in gaveyards lose all abilites" and you play a come into play tapped card from your gy, it will still come into play tapped because it has the ability while it is in the stack zone.

This rule is simply stating that in play effects and effects in the last zone do not effect spells as they come into play.

This is actually a very simple rule. It just reenforces the fact that as spells come into play, they are still in the stack zone and thus are only effected by stack zone effects, and not effected by any continous effects that may happen to them in the future or the past.

[Pinder]

Oh, so since the card has Changeling while it's on the stack, the ability applies as it comes into play, but if, say, a creature without Changeling came into play under a continuous effect that gave it Changeling (like an enchantment or something), it wouldn't get the +1/+1 counter from Oona's Blackguard or whatever?

[quicksilver]

Oh, so since the card has Changeling while it's on the stack, the ability applies as it comes into play, but if, say, a creature without Changeling came into play under a continuous effect that gave it Changeling (like an enchantment or something), it wouldn't get the +1/+1 counter from Oona's Blackguard or whatever?

Correct, because in that situation the continuous effect of changeling would not apply because the spell is still on the stack. This is exactly what the rule is getting at.

[Anusien]

Oh, so since the card has Changeling while it's on the stack, the ability applies as it comes into play, but if, say, a creature without Changeling came into play under a continuous effect that gave it Changeling (like an enchantment or something), it wouldn't get the +1/+1 counter from Oona's Blackguard or whatever?
Incidentally, you'll note that no effect grants Changeling, but rather, "This creature is all creature types." There are two reasons for this.

1) Changeling is a CDA, so granting that would be confusing since the granted form wouldn't be.

2) Layers.