[Discussion] What IS The Rock in Legacy?

[Peter_Rotten]

With The Rock's recent increase in T8 performances, I started thinking about what really makes a deck The Rock. I'm not interested in what it used to be - we all know the old-school versions with Plaguelord, Yavimaya Elder, and Spiritmonger. However, I am interested in what it has become. In other words, what decks should we call "The Rock"? (Maybe we should avoid using the name at all).

Personally, I have been calling any BGW mid-range control deck with some sort of card-advantage a Rock variant. Am I too lax with applying this name? What, in your opinion, sets The Rock (which is generally BGW) apart from Deadguy Ale (which is also now generally BGW)?

For reference purposes, look at the first two decks found here (http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_32nd_E.html) and the following lists:

Deck #3
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Plains

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jötun Grunt
4 Spectral Lynx
1 Mother of Runes

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawas Jitte

Deck #4
2 Bayou (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Bayou');)
1 Savannah (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Savannah');)
1 Scrubland (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Scrubland');)
2 City of Brass (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('City of Brass');)
1 Forest (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Forest');)
1 Swamp (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Swamp');)
1 Plains (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Plains');)
4 Windswept Heath (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Windswept Heath');)
2 Bloodstained Mire (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Bloodstained Mire');)
3 Wasteland (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Wasteland');)
4 Mishra's Factory (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Mishra\'s Factory');)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Volrath\'s Stronghold');)

3 Sensei's Divining Top (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Sensei\'s Divining Top');)
4 Tarmogoyf (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Tarmogoyf');)
3 Eternal Witness (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Eternal Witness');)
2 Loxodon Hierarch (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Loxodon Hierarch');)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Garruk Wildspeaker');)
3 Thoughtseize (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Thoughtseize');)
2 Cabal Therapy (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Cabal Therapy');)
2 Extirpate (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Extirpate');)
3 Vindicate (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Vindicate');)
4 Swords to Plowshares (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Swords to Plowshares');)
3 Life from the Loam (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Life from the Loam');)
3 Pernicious Deed (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Pernicious Deed');)
2 Living Wish (javascript:WizardsAutoCard('Living Wish');)

Which do you consider The Rock and which are Deadguy?

[thefreakaccident]

Deck #3 would be deadguy and the Deck #4 would be The Rock.

BWG is a classic color combination, which can take many approaches, from strict control (oldschool Truffle-Shuffle), mid-range aggro-control (Funkbrew, The Rock), to anal fisting (Pikula w/ Land destruction and an abundance of discard to effectively stop your opponent from playing spells, so you can win without obstacles).

I would classify The Rock as a mid-ranged control that mainly focuses on board position and board control... I know this is generic, but the general concept of 'The Rock' can go into too many directions and the lines are very thin to differentiate between different archtypes.

[Jak]

When I think of The Rock, I think a deck that packs big beatz and a handful of discard. Deadguys is way more controlling. I really want to make a good BGW mid-range deck because the cards it has are fust too good. A shell of:

20-21 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
2-4 Spectral Lynx
2-4 Tombstalker

4 Vindicate
4 Swords
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize

Then add BoP, Bob, Duress, Doran, etc.

The hard part for me was the running of Bob. If you have Bob, you really can't afford to lose 8 life with Tombstalker. TS is just so strong though. I had no ideas of what to do.

[OffTheWall]

Usually I see Rock as being big beaters, discard, and P. Deed. So I would have to go with deck #4 as Rock and #3 as dead guy. Although is does seem that just about any deck with BG in it today is being called Rock.

[Vimes]

I would classify all of them but number 3 as the Rock.

#3 plays Dark Ritual. This is basically the sticking point for me. The Rock is based in multiple colors, and is not overly concerned about temporary jumps in tempo. Dark Ritual is a one-shot boost of mana and only works when you play a lot of black and/or colorless cards.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

"The Rock" is difficult to label at the moment, much like saying Zoo, or 3 Deuce. There are so many different builds, and the archetype is really tunable to the metagame, ensuring massive amounts of diversity. Some builds will be more controlling with sweepers and discard, while others will emphasis LD as well as discard. With 'goyf and additional development, such as the inclusion of Pernicious Deed at times, I think Deadguy has evolved into a more Rockish deck, further blurring the lines. I'm not really sure where this leaves us as far as saying Deadguy is something different enough to deserve it's own category, who knows.

[Osse]

I think its all a moot point, as far as I'm concerned. I generally just call BGW midrange as it is. You're using creatures with a generally powerful curve, some disruption in the form of creature control and either hand or land control. The only difference I could personally see if the ones who, as mentioned, play Dark Ritual, and also the ones who play with recurral effects such as Genesis, Gigapede, Witness etc.

[kicks_422]

Deck 3 is Deadguy, which is black-based aggro-control, kind of like Thresh without blue. Deck 4 is Rock, which is BG-based control, kind of like Landstill without blue.

Well, that's how I put it.

[Volt]

.

[Pinder]

I think of 'The Rock' as much more of a control deck, whereas Deadguy is much more of an Aggro-Control-ish sort of build. Most Deadguy decks win on the back of quick disruption to gain tempo and win before the opponent can recover, whereas in my mind Rock variants are striving for the long game (Truffle Shuffle is an excellent and well known example here), characterized by massive board control followed with large and hard-to-remove finishers (the Spiritmongers of old, the Gigapedes/Scarabs of now) that seal the game up quickly after control has been established.

If I had to pick more modern equivalents to illustrate, I would consider Truffle Shuffle as The Rock, whereas Eva Green is more Deadguy.

edit - Either way though, I think that a defining characteristic of Rock-ish decks is a lack of counterspells, choosing instead to deal with threats proactively (discard) or once they hit the table (WoG/Deed/Damnation/etc.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Rock means a deck that is predominantly green and black, with perhaps a red or white splash, that is somewhere other than a far extreme between control and aggro, although it can be solidly one or the other. Beyond that, the term has no meaning. It's certainly not a deck, and barely an archetype if at all.

[hi-val]

That third deck more accurately looks like PT Junk. That is, solid metagame creatures plus some light disruption and removal elements.

For me, Rock decks need Pernicious Deed. It basically defines the archetype as being controlly instead of wanting to drop lots of dudes that you might lose to Deed.

In old Extended, Rock was a deck that used disruption like Therapy and Duress to survive the early game until it could grind down the opponent through attrition. Living Wish, Genesis, Living Death, etc. were all examples of cards that would provide modest card advantage over a long game. Rock's plan was to just live until Genesis pulling back Eternal Witness pulling back Ravenous Baloth every turn was affordable.

[HSCK]

Historically The Rock is a G/B midrange deck packed with redundant board and hand control elements, big finishers, and silver bullets with a method of finding them. Mana acceleration/fixing that doubles as defense. All decks but number three follow the vein of The Rock with their redundant control elements but without the silver bullets.

[Peter_Rotten]

Beyond that, the term has no meaning. It's certainly not a deck, and barely an archetype if at all.

This is what I'm beginning to fear. If true, then what do we call these BGW decks appearing in Japan, and to a lesser extent, USA and Europe?

I know I set up for a bad joke here, but I'm asking an honest question.

[TeenieBopper]

This is what I'm beginning to fear. If true, then what do we call these BGW decks appearing in Japan, and to a lesser extent, USA and Europe?

I know I set up for a bad joke here, but I'm asking an honest question.

The Rock?

[Bovinious]

We call them awful.

[Peter_Rotten]

Obvious jokes are obvious.

Should we come up with a different name for these BGW decks? Or should continue calling most BGW decks (with Deed) The Rock?

[Shindei]

Obvious jokes are obvious.

Should we come up with a different name for these BGW decks? Or should continue calling most BGW decks (with Deed) The Rock?

Beach House Control :)

Other than that, keeping the archetype in the DTB forum under the current header seems fine, seeing as how it keeps T8ing certain events...

Also, half the posts in The Rock thread are BGW already, so good luck trying to separate them out.

[TeenieBopper]

Obvious jokes are obvious.

Should we come up with a different name for these BGW decks? Or should continue calling most BGW decks (with Deed) The Rock?

I guess I'm stuck with "So what?" I mean, there's lesbian, teen, DP, anal, solo, busty, interracial, etc etc. We still call all of it porn.

If you want to use modifiers, fine. But B/G/x decks with board control elements are The Rock. Call them Doran Rock, Aggro Rock or whatever you want. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well then, it must be a duck.

[Pinder]

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well then, it must be a duck.

Or The Rock. But you get what the man is saying.

[MattH]

The Rock (in legacy) absolutely has:

Pernicious Deed
Bayou


That's about it for sure. What the Rock definitely does NOT have is (are):

Survival of the Fittest
a combo kill
possibly Dark Ritual, as mentioned previously by Pinder

Probably it also does not have land destruction as a major theme (so no Sinkhole), although it isn't above running a few Wastelands when appropriate.

If the majority of your creatures don't do anything besides attack and block, you're almost certainly not The Rock. Spectral Lynx is not a very Rock-y creature. Nantuko Shade: more of a scissors guy than a rock guy. Goyf gets a pass because Goyf does whatever he wants to do.

Deck #4 is Rock. Deck #3 is not - it looks like the child of PT Junk and Deadguy Ale.

[Jaynel]

To me, The Rock means Pernicious Deed, Spiritmonger/Hierarch/Baloth, Volrath's Stronghold, and Living Wish. #4 fits this definition pretty well.

The other deck is much more aggro oriented, like some versions of Deadguy/g.

[from Cairo]

With The Rock's recent increase in T8 performances, I started thinking about what really makes a deck The Rock. I'm not interested in what it used to be - we all know the old-school versions with Plaguelord, Yavimaya Elder, and Spiritmonger. However, I am interested in what it has become. In other words, what decks should we call "The Rock"?

The Rock as I've known it has always been a mid-late game control deck. Where the spells and creatures synergized to give unlikely control colors recurring answers to most everything an opponent might throw. It played creatures that for the most part either accelerated/established the decks mana or drawing the game into the later turns where the mana advantage would yield control. Originally Birds, Wall of Roots, Spike Feeder/Weaver, Yavimaya Elder. Now it has Eternal Witness, Wall of Goyf, Garruk Wildspeaker, Shriekmaw and Loxodon Hierarch to supplement and replace some of those. Most of the creatures were/are not just turn sideways guys, but offered utility.

For spells it always had some discard Duress, now more likely Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, Pernicious Deed, and some form of a tool box, originally with Vampiric Tutor targets of Living Deaths, Phyrexian Furnaces and Rec Nightmares- now more likely Living Wish or Glittering Wish and Extirpates.

Then it had some sort of recursion, either in Genesis, Volrath's Stronghold, Life from the Loam, Recurring Nightmare, Eternal Witness, etc. Some means by which the deck can establish long game advantage, if it were up against control/combo then recurring Witnesses returning Duress/Therapy turn after turn or Recurring Nightmare sacing worthless mana dorks for endless fogs/lifegain with the Spikes/Hierarchs, Stronghold recurring Shriekmaw, etc.


Cards that jump out at me as especially Un-Rock:

Dark Ritual - as it doesn't impact the long game, it pushes for explosive early game which was never this decks goal.

Sinkhole - again not going for tempo, a few Wasteland to hit utility lands, like Tabernacles or Mazes of Ith, and some Vindicate maybe for all around spot removal, but Sinkhole seems too narrow to fit Rock, and concentrates again on throwing an opponent off balance in a deck that's not shooting to exploit early game tempo.

Doran - to me doesn't seem like a Rock creature, although it may sort of be similar to Goyf in that a 5/5 for 3 is a great wall that will stall the early game as good as anything, it doesn't necessarily have to be pushing for Agro. But also takes advantage of opponents that don't establish a defense since it's a wall that happens to be a 4 turn clock. I would tend to think of Eternal Witness as a stronger 3 drop in Rock due to it's recursion utility, but that may be outdated thinking.


Personally, I have been calling any BGW mid-range control deck with some sort of card-advantage a Rock variant. Am I too lax with applying this name? What, in your opinion, sets The Rock (which is generally BGW) apart from Deadguy Ale (which is also now generally BGW)?

Deadguy is more agro control, hoping to gain tempo and win in the early-mid game. It's not set up for long game, Ritual is a lousy top deck. Sinkhole also tends to lose stock as the game goes longer. I think the Rock tends to avoid cards that make for bad late game top decks.

I think the line is really finer between the Rock and PT Junk, which really the only difference I can think is that PT Junk tends to be more agro. With the printing of things like Tarmogoyf and Shriekmaw though it's hard to see much line, since they double defensively and offensively


Which do you consider The Rock and which are Deadguy?

Personally I would classify them as...

1st List - Doran.dec Extended Port
2nd List - Rock
3rd List - Deadguy
4th List - Rock


(Maybe we should avoid using the name at all).

I think with alot of the new cards the choices to push toward the Rock being simply a control deck might be outdated. Doran, and even more so Goyf open the deck up to having a very fast clock, the need to draw the game out to 5+ mana for Spiritmonger or something is really no longer there. I think keeping it a longterm game plan is the right call, giving it means of recursion, leaves it in a more powerful position versus opponents who's decks also go into the late game. But there is also something to be said for the inclusion of Doran, while not utility, he gives the deck the option do drop Turn one Discard, Turn two Goyf, Turn three Doran, Turn 5-6 dead opponent.

[The Rack]

The Rock has Heirarchs, Witness, some more fat, and disruption. It does not have Spectral Lynx and it never has. Doesn't it have Birds of Paradise as well? Don't most of the BWG Rockish decks run vindicates and Deeds? Isn't there about a 400% rise in BWG decks lately because of Doran with about 4 cards different the next deck. Just call them The Rock if they look like the Rock, if they don't then don't.

[Eldariel]

As far as the term 'Rock' goes, the easiest definition for it is just a deck playing ~24 lands, ~4 mana dudes and ~32 very powerful cards. Then it wants to cast those ~32 very powerful cards while opponent is casting ~36 less powerful cards. Then Rock wins since while opponent casts ~1 more card that does something per game, Rock's cards are superior enough to make the remaining ~10 cards the opponent casts suck. In effect, I'd call any BGx deck that tries to win with incremential card advantage and through just pure cardpower 'The Rock'. Of course, generally that involves playing Deed, since we all know it's easily the best sweeper ever printed. It's generally a finesse-deck having no horrible match-ups and giving a strong pilot the ability to leverage his skill advantage over opponents in 50/50 match-ups to rack up wins.

So, a deck isn't Rock when it starts playing cards that are worse in the vacuum, or metagame specific. Examples would include Sinkhole (2-mana spell that trades 1-for-1 with a friggin' land), Spectral Lynx (2-mana 2/1 without real abilities), Jotun Grunt (2-mana creature whose only ability is to kill himself) and similar cards typical for PT Junk-builds.

[TeenieBopper]

What he said. ^^

[Belgareth]

It's pretty simple, really. The Rock is BGW with 2+ Pernicious Deeds and 0 Dark Rituals.

QFT.

hand disruption/board control, plus Fat beats is generally labelled the rock.