[Article] Living in the Threshold Metagame

[Bardo]

"Living in the Threshold Metagame" (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15472.html).
by Kevin Binswanger (Anusien)

"Threshold is the best deck. Hardly anyone disputes this anymore; the deck has proven itself both by showing up everywhere and by taking Top 8 slots and tournament wins in the places that it shows up. More importantly, Threshold has a format-warping effect in the same way that Goblins does. Not in a "this deck should be banned" way but in a "if you expect to do well at a tournament, you need to know how to deal with Threshold and its anti-decks" way."

[DragoFireheart]

I think I speak for everyone when I say this:

I'm sick of seeing that stupid fugly little known as "Tarmogoyf". Everyone wants one for their deck and everyone tries to have ways to kill it. Even decks that normally wouldn't run creatures like Goyf [Landstill] will run him anyways! Add in the fact that he costs $40+ and I think we can all agree that Goyf sucks.

With that rant done, isn't the best way to beat Thresh is to simply have a battle of attrition with them? Decks with card advantage like Landstill and The Rock should be able to outlast enough of their counter-magic to simply crush them by draining their resources? Sometimes this can be difficult to do however as many Thresh decks love to use Counter-Top to stall/protect. This is solved by using good artifact hate like Krosan Grip, though that limits decks to needing green as a reliable way to take out the counter top. You could also use Pithing Needle if you don't have green mana.

Are there any other weaknesses to consider when facing Threshold? Does killing their yard work or is it simply a waste of time as their Goyf doesn't care?

[zulander]

There are a couple of things you have to be able to do to beat thresh.

1. Deal with goyf and mongoose.
2. Disrupt them via chalice @ 1, discard, counters or their manabase.
3. Get around their countersuite.

If you do these three things against thresh, you have a chance but so does thresh due to the way it's built. You're kidding yourself if you think that you have a 65+% of beating thresh unless your landstill. And now with Moon Thresh that matchup isn't as bad as it used to be.

[Whit3 Ghost]

After testing the Dragon Stompy matchup with Goobafish, I found that the deck is only slightly favored to even over Thrash. The deck does not, in fact, eat Tarmogoyfs for breakfast because the threats that handle him are usually walked into Daze, and 8 burn spells can mean bad times for your blockers and equipment. Yes, they can play an early Blood Moon, but that's what almost all the test games I won came on the back of. Trygon Predator is incredible in that matchup, as is Goyf.

Besides an early mention of Thrash, I was dissapointed that lists of Moon Thresh and Thrash weren't posted, especially because of how much the archetype got praised.

And I'm not sure if the Extended comparison is valid.

[Dilettante]

1) Blood Moon sucks.
2) The deck lacks fundamental casting costs of 3 or greater generally (save Force of Will), so decks with such can sneak around Counter-Top (i.e. Dragon Stompy).
3) Stifle is often a Time Walk.
4) Leyline of the Void sucks.
5) Chalice of the Void sucks.
6) Nether Void = GG
7) Smallpox is brutal
8) It's a middling deck, albeit, it takes the best of both words in terms of getting undercosted creatures, but it does not do control or aggro to perfection. This leaves an opening for extremes.

[Isamaru]

I like Kevin's writing, and he made a lot of good points in the article, but I think he is forgetting how wide open this format is when it comes to suggesting alternatives.

If you want to beat Threshold, play control or play a deck that does a better job of being an aggro deck than Threshold, but plays 3cc+ threats /doesn't lose to Counterbalance. (I'll biasedly suggest I Will Survive (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245))

There are a lot of options, though - I just am suggesting that you have to keep an open mind. I don't think having an abundance of Threshold makes the format unhealthy by any means, no matter how big of a pain Mr. Goyf & Balance are. :tongue:

[FoolofaTook]

With that rant done, isn't the best way to beat Thresh is to simply have a battle of attrition with them? Decks with card advantage like Landstill and The Rock should be able to outlast enough of their counter-magic to simply crush them by draining their resources? Sometimes this can be difficult to do however as many Thresh decks love to use Counter-Top to stall/protect. This is solved by using good artifact hate like Krosan Grip, though that limits decks to needing green as a reliable way to take out the counter top. You could also use Pithing Needle if you don't have green mana.

Are there any other weaknesses to consider when facing Threshold? Does killing their yard work or is it simply a waste of time as their Goyf doesn't care?

Attrition battles with Threshold work just fine as long as you're not overly vulnerable to Counter/Top or have ways to deal with it. The key to beating Threshold is to remember that there are a limited number of threats in the deck and if you manage to trade-off with those threats you'll eventually wear Thresh down.

Black in particular has a bunch of ways to manage Threshold at this point with Shriekmaw, Tombstalker, Cabal Therapy and Extirpate on the leading edge.

[Mental]

There are a couple of things you have to be able to do to beat thresh.

1. Deal with goyf and mongoose.
2. Disrupt them via chalice @ 1, discard, counters or their manabase.
3. Get around their countersuite.

If you do these three things against thresh, you have a chance but so does thresh due to the way it's built. You're kidding yourself if you think that you have a 65+% of beating thresh unless your landstill. And now with Moon Thresh that matchup isn't as bad as it used to be.

The Rock crushes Threshold into hell also. That deck seems like it should be very good right now.

[Eldariel]

Landstill and Rock are far from crushing the Stifle/Wasteland version of Threshold - many games will end with the midrange deck never resolving a spell, and many of those they do will be too little too late. Incidentially, it's also the version which took Worlds and has been finishing solidly since. Also, Counterbalance-version has decent chances at fighting many Landstill-builds.

[Mental]

Landstill and Rock are far from crushing the Stifle/Wasteland version of Threshold - many games will end with the midrange deck never resolving a spell, and many of those they do will be too little too late. Incidentially, it's also the version which took Worlds and has been finishing solidly since. Also, Counterbalance-version has decent chances at fighting many Landstill-builds.

Meh, I noticed that with Landstill. The Rock, if built with Wall of Roots, has a very strong MU against Tempo Thresh.

[AngryTroll]

I liked the article also. Was Mind Harness not mentioned because it costs 1, the cumulative upkeep, or all/none of the above?

On Side Topic:
Both RGBSA, GBrw, and GBw Survival all have pretty solid Thresh games at the moment, as well as solid plans against the Rock, Dragon Stompy, etc.

[Pinder]

I was dissapointed that lists of Moon Thresh and Thrash weren't posted, especially because of how much the archetype got praised.


I'm confused. Can anyone tell me what the difference is between Thresh and 'Thrash'? Is there something I'm missing?

[Jaynel]

"Thrash" is a Canadian version of Ugr Thresh that runs Wasteland and Stifle.

Decklist here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231&highlight=thrash).

[TeenieBopper]

"Thrash" is a Canadian version of Ugr Thresh that runs Wasteland and Stifle.

Decklist here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231&highlight=thrash).

Yeah... how 'bout we just call it Tempo Thresh? It's about as accurate and it creates a clearer distinction instead of thinking that the person is just typing drunk.

[Anusien]

I like Kevin's writing, and he made a lot of good points in the article, but I think he is forgetting how wide open this format is when it comes to suggesting alternatives.

If you want to beat Threshold, play control or play a deck that does a better job of being an aggro deck than Threshold, but plays 3cc+ threats /doesn't lose to Counterbalance. (I'll biasedly suggest I Will Survive (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245))
Which control decks are these? BBS: hah! Landstill: nice Blood Moon. Tog: *snicker*. Threshold is going to be pretty good against most control decks, by virtue of running all the same disruption pieces but getting better beatdown tools. TEC might be different; I haven't tested it all that much. But then again the fact that TEC can run Counterbalance means that it is vulnerable to the card, which is an interesting tension.
Sadly the current crop of aggro decks aren't all that amazing versus Threshold. I'm playing around with Goblins when I get the chance to see what kind of silliness I can come up with, but I've been doing fine with Threshold versus Goblins.

"Tempo Thresh" is a kind of silly name. Why not just call it Threshold with Wasteland and Stifle? Heck, if you know it has Wasteland, the Stifle is probably even assumed. You can hybridize the deck any way you want; I've seen Counterbalance + Waste + Stifle in all different colors too. At this point you're not even referring to a specific build because of how flexible the deck is.

The problem that inevitable decks have, that I'm quickly discovering with my Intuition deck, is that they tend to be slow and you can get blown out by Thresh early if you're not careful. So how do you speed your defense up and not get blown out by Counterbalance?


Re: Mind Harness. Is there a reason to run this card? Seems problematic because of how bad it is against Counterbalance, and how most decks really can't afford to give up that much mana every turn. If I only have 5, it's going to run out pretty quickly. Why not just run Moment's Peace? Plus it has the "Declaration of Nought Problem" in that it loses to all the trumps in the mirror: Krosan Grip and Counterbalance.


Edit: I do kind of oversell how wide open the format is. Realistically you could play a bad deck choice, lose to Threshold once or twice and still make Top 8. I just wouldn't recommend it...

[Eldariel]

Which control decks are these? BBS: hah! Landstill: nice Blood Moon. Tog: *snicker*. Threshold is going to be pretty good against most control decks, by virtue of running all the same disruption pieces but getting better beatdown tools. TEC might be different; I haven't tested it all that much. But then again the fact that TEC can run Counterbalance means that it is vulnerable to the card, which is an interesting tension.

I won't comment on the others, but Mono-Blue Control was in the Metagame Forum a bit back for a reason; it has an incredible Threshold-MU and it's immune to all Threshold's normal anti-control strategies as it runs no non-basics and no fetches. It also has a legimate bomb in Back to Basics (as a bonus, effective against red decks too) and can pretty much outdraw all other control-decks in the format. It basically is capable of beating all the modern midrange decks simply because it has the tools to drag them to the lategame and dominate it, and it's capable of beating all the other control-decks on the virtue of simply playing more draw. Since some lists added Propaganda, those lists have had a decent chance of beating Goblins, especially the N-colour versions that are supervulnerable to B2B. If I were to look for a control-deck to play in Legacy, that's where I'd start.

Looks like I'm saying Mono-Blue Control is a good solution for the Threshold-meta.

[Anusien]

BBS used to have a positive matchup against Threshold; I'm not sure if that's true anymore. Counterbalance seems like a kick in the junk, and the only verifiably good card in the matchup, Vedalken Shackles, loses out to Krosan Grip post-board. Plus, turn 3 Tarmogoyf as a 3/4 seems like it's going to start beating down pretty quickly.
Back to Basics is not nearly as good as Blood Moon because they still get to tap once which is huge (speaking from experience). Plus, it's the worst time in the world to run Back to Basics since people are already adapting to Blood Moon. Speaking personally, please play Back to Basics. I'll fetch out my basic lands and laugh.

Plus, what are you going to kill with? Morphling can't even race some of the Threshold creatures, and Meloku might be able to, but it's tremendously vulnerable to removal.

[Eldariel]

Seems to me like Powder Keg, Shackles, B2B and Propaganda form a solid backbone and that hasn't changed at all. From the testing I did with Kadaj, Counterbalance tended to be at most a nuisance; there's no way to actually lock MUC out with it due to the actual bombs costing 3+ and it basically was unusable if B2B ever resolved. Also, MUC doesn't give Threshold very much time to dig for it, so actually putting Counterbalance and Top together is tough.

Vedalken Shackles is still solid even if Thresh has means to destroy it, since it requires them to kill it to actually continue their assault and unless they have an immediate answer, MUC will just outdraw them enough that the game just ends. It doesn't just end the game anymore, but it does act as a powerful defense weapon, forcing an answer out of Threshold.

As for kill, Morphling still works just fine. It may not be as impressive a Tarmogoyf-killer, but it's still immune to removal, is an evasive clock and can block a Goyf forever while eating Mongeese left and right.

[Deep6er]

I think that the part that you're missing is what happens when they assemble Counter/Top BEFORE you hit Back to Basics. When all of your cheap draw spells (Brainstorm ((if you play it)), Accumulated Knowledge ((again, if you play it)), Think Twice, Ancestral Visions) turned off, you're going to have a damned hard time finding Back to Basics. Then, since they've been manipulating their draws while beating you to death with a Mongoose/Tarmogoyf, you're under the burden of not ONLY answering their threat, but also winning. Which is somewhat difficult.

I'm not saying it's a cakewalk, but I think you're exaggerating Counterbalance's impact on MUC. Don't forget that they have counters just like you. Daze will often be relevant because you don't have time to dick around.

Seriously, this is probably one of a very few times that Anusien is right. Threshold IS in fact the best deck in the format. Probably by a decent margin at that. There ARE decks that beat it, but the beauty/frustrating nature of Legacy is that the other decks that Threshold would have beaten, will beat you. And with how difficult it is to metagame properly in Legacy, Threshold is ACTUALLY the best choice right now.

[Isamaru]

Okay, Anusien... Kevin... you are ignoring a lot of the facts. Threshold is not quite the unbeatable deck you are making it out to be, even though I see the point of the article and this discussion. You simply have to know enough about the format to build accordingly.


Realistically you could play a bad deck choice, lose to Threshold once or twice and still make Top 8. I just wouldn't recommend it...In this post where you quote me, you missed my compliment and only read what you wanted to... and you misunderstood what I meant by "choosing a deck." I didn't say choose an alternative and go rogue for the lulz; I said to choose a deck that beats Threshold - and there are more than you might think.

Threshold is great, yes. But every strategy has a trump... unless it's Hulk Flash. :tongue: Anyway, why hasn't anyone put up numbers with RB/g Goblins yet?

EDIT: Deep6er's Sarnath does offer a good argument... the decks that beat Threshold usually die to non-Threshold, true. But I still maintain that there are still decks that can accomplish both, no? The beauty of Legacy (amidst the frustrating part) does provide for both to be possible at the same time.

[DragoFireheart]

What other sort of decks can beat Threshold? Are there any mono-colored decks that can beat Threshold well?

[Deep6er]

Okay, Anusien... Kevin... you are ignoring a lot of the facts. Threshold is not quite the unbeatable deck you are making it out to be, even though I see the point of the article and this discussion. You simply have to know enough about the format to build accordingly.

In this post where you quote me, you missed my compliment and only read what you wanted to... and you misunderstood what I meant by "choosing a deck." I didn't say choose an alternative and go rogue for the lulz; I said to choose a deck that beats Threshold - and there are more than you might think.

Threshold is great, yes. But every strategy has a trump... unless it's Hulk Flash. :tongue: Anyway, why hasn't anyone put up numbers with RB/g Goblins yet?

EDIT: Deep6er's Sarnath does offer a good argument... the decks that beat Threshold usually die to non-Threshold, true. But I still maintain that there are still decks that can accomplish both, no? The beauty of Legacy (amidst the frustrating part) does provide for both to be possible at the same time.


While certainly a valid point, my argument is this: Since Threshold is as good as it is (I assume there's not too many arguments about this, right?), then choosing it for a tournament has several benefits. 1) You're a leg up on the non-Threshold decks there, 2) Your strategy is inherently strong enough to adapt to most other decks you encounter, 3) Even should you hit a bad matchup, you can still get a win because Threshold is really strong and can still win through hate.

So, I propose a question, if you're aim is to win the ENTIRE tournament, shouldn't you choose the best deck to do so? This question is too simplistic, but it gets my point across. Except in those few situations where the meta game is so drastically anti-Threshold, then Threshold is usually a right call because you usually have limited information on the entire meta game. Unfortunately, you cannot know what the breakdown/what your opponents will play beforehand, so you have to make the best choice with what little information you can gather beforehand. In THAT KIND OF SCENARIO, I would propose that Threshold is the correct choice.

[Isamaru]

Dave, you are definitely right - I'd just like to believe that Goblins could come back :smile: ...and I always prefer to believe that there are certain less-popular strategies that are better than a given strategy.

[Deep6er]

That's certainly cool, it's not like anyone will FORCE you to play Threshold. What I'm trying to say is that you should most definitely be aware that Threshold is as strong as it is.

On a side note, even though I say these things, I'm a hypocrite. I don't play Threshold ever (except occasionally in testing), and have repeatedly stated that I WON'T play it in a tournament.

So, this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do", at work here. Of course, I'm not TELLING you to do anything, so I guess it's not as bad. :)

[zulander]

It's a free country, play what you want. Just don't cry if/when you lose to *****.

[DragoFireheart]

It's a free country, play what you want. Just don't cry if/when you lose to *****.

Are you suggesting that thresh is the only thing we should play? Why not try and make a new deck that can be equally as powerful as thresh?

[Anusien]

Are you suggesting that thresh is the only thing we should play? Why not try and make a new deck that can be equally as powerful as thresh?
Nope. I spend a lot of my time working on beating the best deck and not losing to the rest of the field. But for the past month, when it came down to tournaments, I played Threshold. And I won.

There are some strategies that beat Threshold and maintain decent game against the field (many Survival decks do this). The trick is finding a deck that beats Threshold AND combo. The most irrational group of players are combo players, and they tend to play their decks whether it's the right meta call or not. But combo is one type of deck that can easily just luck out or skill out and win because you did something awesome or your opponent did something terrible. So the field could be large amounts of Threshold AND combo.

Edit: Tuned down the hyperbole.

[Isamaru]

How about a Survival Combo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245) deck? :wink:

[DragoFireheart]

he most irrational group of players are combo players, and they tend to play their decks whether it's the right meta call or not. But combo is one type of deck that can easily just luck out or skill out and win because you did something awesome or your opponent did something terrible. So the field could be 50% Threshold and 50% combo. Good luck playing Survival.

So basically because of combo, a player is forced to either:

-Blue, for counter magic to stop/stall combo.

-Black, for discard to stop/stall and possibly Extirpate to seal the deal.

-Make a deck that can race combo.

-Not care about combo and make a deck that owns the rest of the meta.

[Anusien]

Yes, and that also applies to every deck in the metagame that will show up in reasonable proportions. You should also metagame more for decks that are better or that you expect in greater numbers.

Isamaru: Do you mind not continually pimping your deck in this thread? That's the second link to the deck in 2 pages, and that post didn't even have any content.

[Dilettante]

Out here, I used to see many a Threshold deck, but lately, for some reason, very few... and a Hell of a lot of Ichorid (likely due to the sheer economics). I need to start recording exact numbers, but I am seeing more Goblins, Stiflenought, Burn, Pox, and Ichorid than Threshold. Is that the case for anyone else, or is Threshold still the dominant force in your local scene?

[Whit3 Ghost]

To me, Thrash implies Wasteland and Stifle over the Counterbalance Engine (basically, whatever Goobafish and Lam are running at the time). The deck has a roughly 10-18 card difference over the normal lists coming out of VA (4 Waste, Fire/Ice, Spell Snare, Stifle and 2 random slots). I'm not sure if Thrash is the right term for it, but it requires destinction from lists running Counterbalance.

Now, in order to beat Threshold, I think control needs to become more controlling, basically the opposite of the hybridized lists such as TEC. I'm not sure how one does this, but I think it's possible.

And Drago, that's been the case in Legacy for quite some time.

EDIT- I think Thresh is like GAT in Vintage, it's all the rage right now, but eventually the metagame will diversify as answers begin to form.

[zulander]

Eva Green has about 50/50 matchup against normal thresh(not Canadian thresh) pre-board.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, and that also applies to every deck in the metagame that will show up in reasonable proportions. You should also metagame more for decks that are better or that you expect in greater numbers.

Magic is a giant Rock/Paper/Scissors fiasco.

What deck currently crushes Threshold oh.... 70/30 at the very least? I heard someone say Landstill but where there any other non-control decks that could compete?

[Zach Tartell]

What deck currently crushes Threshold oh.... 70/30 at the very least? I heard someone say Landstill but where there any other non-control decks that could compete?

Some Rock variants have a pretty positive match. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's that good. But they do pretty well. 'Specially post-board. If you can knock a goyf out of their hand and then Extirpate it it's usually game. Deed is also pretty nasty.

Enchantress is pretty good, since Thresh averages about 0-3 3cc cards for Counterbalance to hit, and 0-3 4's. So just about every single cool enchantment will hit, and Moat, too. Or replenish. Or O-Ring. The only problem is that Enchantress is a pretty bad deck.

[Bovinious]

Ichorid beats Thresh, hell who am I kidding, Ichorid beats everything. Dredge is the best in all formats!

But seriously, Ichorid beats Thresh fo breffix...at least 70/30.

[DragoFireheart]

Ichorid beats Thresh, hell who am I kidding, Ichorid beats everything. Dredge is the best in all formats!

But seriously, Ichorid beats Thresh fo breffix...at least 70/30.

Yes, we all know that Ichorid is basically 99.999/0.001 first game against just about every deck.

Course then we get to game 2 and 3 where the real fun begins. :laugh:

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

On a side note, even though I say these things, I'm a hypocrite. I don't play Threshold ever (except occasionally in testing), and have repeatedly stated that I WON'T play it in a tournament.

OMGz u are teh n00bz knoz nuth1ng of m4gik u hav 2 pla evree dek tipe or u sux!!1!!1[/AlixOrAllanOrAlixAndAllanLockedInANakedEmbrace]

To atone for my traitorous outburst, I will now arbitrarily insult Anusien.

...later.

[desperateattempttomakeontopic]Has anyone tried Trainwreck? Haunting Echoes still seems like a powerhouse, Goyf symetry or no.

[Whit3 Ghost]

OMGz u are teh n00bz knoz nuth1ng of m4gik u hav 2 pla evree dek tipe or u sux!!1!!1[/AlixOrAllanOrAlixAndAllanLockedInANakedEmbrace]

To atone for my traitorous outburst, I will now arbitrarily insult Anusien.

...later.

[desperateattempttomakeontopic]Has anyone tried Trainwreck? Haunting Echoes still seems like a powerhouse, Goyf symetry or no.
It's a thought. It dominated Alix at the GAGG, but it needs a way to either improve either it's combo or Goblins matchup.

[Kadaj]

To be frank, Threshold is both the best deck and the deck to play in Legacy. The main issue that makes it so good is that it's really hard to aim specifically at threshold and still maintain matchups against the ridiculous amount of everything else that can and will show up at a given tournament. Then there's the small matter of actually having a thresh matchup that's actually better than 60-40. Yeah, have fun with that.

I've had a lot of success with MUC against Thresh, and going by my testing numbers alone it'd be about a 70-30 matchup in MUC's favor, but I have serious doubts as to whether or not those numbers would hold up in more strenuous testing or in tournaments.

These new UGr variants seem like the best to me, with UGb with Thoughtseize and Counterbalance a fairly distant third. Why? Because the UGr variants are much better against both control and aggro while still beating the tar out of the inevitable mid-range garbage that shows up and combo (combo potentially even moreso then UGb and UGw). The major weakness of these fairly cumbersome control decks against Thresh is that they often have trouble finding and resolving their answers in time. The UGr variants exacerbate these troubles to the utmost extent without sacrificing offensive speed and flexibility against everything else.

[FoolofaTook]

Magic is a giant Rock/Paper/Scissors fiasco.

What deck currently crushes Threshold oh.... 70/30 at the very least? I heard someone say Landstill but where there any other non-control decks that could compete?

Sui Black can beat Threshold off the draw easily with a wasteland and a sinkhole, which is not too uncommon a draw to have. Cabal Therapy can also be very problematic for Thresh in that matchup.

[DragoFireheart]

Sui Black can beat Threshold off the draw easily with a wasteland and a sinkhole, which is not too uncommon a draw to have. Cabal Therapy can also be very problematic for Thresh in that matchup.

To be fair, Wasteland + Sinkhole will cripple just about any deck out there.

I think that discard is a solid way to fight thresh. For the short while I did play with a U/G Thresh deck, discard would always be the worst thing an opponent could to do me.

Not only could they nab a spell I may need, but they would learn valuable info about the current game state [What removal/counters I may have, etc].

[Bovinious]

OMGz u are teh n00bz knoz nuth1ng of m4gik u hav 2 pla evree dek tipe or u sux!!1!!1[/AlixOrAllanOrAlixAndAllanLockedInANakedEmbrace]

To atone for my traitorous outburst, I will now arbitrarily insult Anusien.

...later.

[desperateattempttomakeontopic]Has anyone tried Trainwreck? Haunting Echoes still seems like a powerhouse, Goyf symetry or no.

Dude of course Gearhart isnt gunna play Thresh, hes gotta keep Solidarity alive and afloat, and then invent decks for Team EPIC to brand as their own, isnt that rite Gearhart? :wink: :wink: :wink:

[MattH]

If all you ever wanted was a deck that hurt both threshold and combo, wouldn't you basically never stop playing Stax?

[Shugyosha]

To be fair, Wasteland + Sinkhole will cripple just about any deck out there.

I think that discard is a solid way to fight thresh. For the short while I did play with a U/G Thresh deck, discard would always be the worst thing an opponent could to do me.

Not only could they nab a spell I may need, but they would learn valuable info about the current game state [What removal/counters I may have, etc].

No. If the Threshold player knows what he is doing the matchup is quite good. What will you do with you Wasteland/Sinkhole if he just plays a fetch or how about Tropical, Mongoose. Wasteland can also be stifled and I dazed Sinkholes so many times I can't even count it anymore. I even played brainstorm, daze->brainstorm in response to land destruction often and it won me the games in the end.


On the topic: Why is everyone looking for a 70/30 matchup against thresh? The deck itself doesn't have a 70/30 against the established decks, far from that. It beats jank very well, true but it is still far from winning every match against good decks. It is a strong deck that becomes a very strong deck in the hands of a capable pilot and there are lots of it, so it appears in top8s.

And if you still long for a deck that beats it on a more regular basis play some kind of threshhold that is tuned to win the mirror via cards like Spectral Lynx, Troll Ascetic, Aether Vial, Equipment, Extirpate, etc. You will still have a reasonable matchup against other decks.

[mercenarybdu]

Not very fun. As that deck has nearly every answer for every deck type out of the game discouraging other decks from ever seeing play. Before Goyf came along the format was ruled by Goblins to begin, then Threshold, then free of the top 2. After those, Hulk Flash came and went. When things couldn't get any worse Goyf comes along and puts 4 Threshold decks in the top 8 of the Legacy Championships with a few other copies here and there.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Not very fun. As that deck has nearly every answer for every deck type out of the game discouraging other decks from ever seeing play. Before Goyf came along the format was ruled by Goblins to begin, then Threshold, then free of the top 2. After those, Hulk Flash came and went. When things couldn't get any worse Goyf comes along and puts 4 Threshold decks in the top 8 of the Legacy Championships with a few other copies here and there.

Are you forgetting that there were three Threshold decks in the Top 8 of both Grand Prix: Philly and Grand Prix: Lille? Goblins only accounted for half as many placings between the events. Threshold has probably been the best deck in Legacy since the format's inception. It just took folks a while (and the printing of 'goyf) to recognize that.

Do you really think having Threshold as the deck to beat makes for an unfun format? Every format has to have its design targets; I'd rather be aiming at a relatively fair deck like Threshold than an overpowered combo deck, like Flash.

[FoolofaTook]

Do you really think having Threshold as the deck to beat makes for an unfun format? Every format has to have its design targets; I'd rather be aiming at a relatively fair deck like Threshold than an overpowered combo deck, like Flash.

Threshold is the perfect best deck to have in a meta because it can just get owned by so many different concepts. It's value is in it's predictability but it's almost never the strongest deck in a given tournament, just the deck least likely to hose it's owner with bad draws.