Combo Decks & Particular Turn Wins

[Cavius The Great]

I realize that they're many combo decks that can win on the first and second turn, but combo decks that win by the third or fourth turn, can they be viable as well?

I have a general question regarding goldfishing and combo decks. What percentage do the tier 1 combo decks win on turn 1,2,3 etc. And combo decks that win on turn 3-4, are these bad decks or part of the norm. I'm not really sure if I should pursue building a combo deck that gets consistent 3rd turn kills and I have no idea how well this particular deck would do in the format. Any insight on combo decks and it's intricacies would be much appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.

[from Cairo]

If you are going to play a slower combo deck you need some defense to stall while you assemble the combo.

Aluren is a pretty good example of a combo deck that doesn't win until post-turn 3/4. It runs 4 FoW, 3-4 Cabal Therapy, and 4 Wall of Roots/Blossoms to help in buying time against faster decks. Cephalid Breakfast (though it can goldfish Turn 2) runs a similar stall/protection package, 4 Goyf instead of walls, essentially to help against fast aggro and then counters/discard to help vs control or faster combo.

So yea Turn 3-4 combo is viable, but it needs to pack enough control/defense to ensure it makes it to Turn 3-4 while assembling the combo.

[Cavius The Great]

Just to clarify, my build runs 4 Thoughtseize MD'ed and 4 Duress SB. It does pack a good amount of disruption. But should I run more disruption, or is this sufficient.

And add to that, why do people play Aluren and Breakfast if it's a slower combo deck? Why doesn't John Doe just grab the fastest combo deck out there?

[ChillerKiller0815]

Just to clarify, my build runs 4 Thoughtseize MD'ed and 4 Duress SB. It does pack a good amount of disruption. But should I run more disruption, or is this sufficient.

And add to that, why do people play Aluren and Breakfast if it's a slower combo deck? Why doesn't John Doe just grab the fastest combo deck out there?

Because the faster a combo deck is able to win the less backup plans it normaly has. So these decks either win fast or die to a lot of cards that negate their win plan without beeing able to constantly handle these cards without influencing their own combo-game-plan.
Fast combo decks are hated more easily and less consistend then the slower combo decks. So both have their pros and cons.

[DragoFireheart]

Does this site consider Burn to be a combo deck or a sort of "aggro/combo" deck?

Countering one lightning bolt won't stop the deck, but it will stall it somewhat.

[ChillerKiller0815]

Does this site consider Burn to be a combo deck or a sort of "aggro/combo" deck?

Countering one lightning bolt won't stop the deck, but it will stall it somewhat.

I would consider Burn acting more like a combo deck that has a 3-5 turn clock. So it is considered a slow combo deck and as you said every counter is only going to by a turn at most. so it is slow but resilient to the most defense plans except for Jitte, Chalice, 3Sphere and such.

[Cavius The Great]

Does this site consider Burn to be a combo deck or a sort of "aggro/combo" deck?

Countering one lightning bolt won't stop the deck, but it will stall it somewhat.

Burn might be a bad combo deck. :wink: It's still not bad to be in the Established Forums and get fourth turn kills at best. I guess that answers my question on the 3rd - 4th turn viability thing. :tongue:

I also think that "fizzling" is a factor whether the combo deck is consistent or not. I guess I failed to mention that in the first post.

[DragoFireheart]

Burn might be a bad combo deck. :wink: It's still not bad to be in the Established Forums and get fourth turn kills at best. I guess that answers my question on the 3rd - 4th turn viability thing. :tongue:

At least a Burn deck [with a sideboard] is, what, 1/5 the price of 4 Tarmogoyfs?

It might not be the best, but it sure as hell is cheap to build and doesn't die to Yard hate.

[Cavius The Great]

At least a Burn deck [with a sideboard] is, what, 1/5 the price of 4 Tarmogoyfs?

It might not be the best, but it sure as hell is cheap to build and doesn't die to Yard hate.

Please don't turn this thread into a "budget/price" thing. :wink: I'm willing to play with any card in the format $200 dollars and under. :smile:

[DragoFireheart]

Please don't turn this thread into a "budget/price" thing. :wink: I'm willing to play with any card in the format $200 dollars and under. :smile:

I like to play burn when I don't feel like thinking. Sort of an auto-pilot deck at times. I'll play it every one in awhile when no one is expecting it to steal an easy win. :cool:

[Dilettante]

Every combo deck has its weaknesses... TES' weaknesses are primarily linked to its high card-count dependance, resulting in things that disrupt mana cost (Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst), Chalice, and heavy discard. Now, it has some protective measures (Orim's Chant, Xantid Swarm), but Orim's Chant doesn't stay on the field and Xantid Swarm is fairly vulnerable and takes a turn to go online. Belcher has very similar weaknesses. Solidarity is extremely dependent on Cunning Wish and High Tide and runs slightly slower than the above two, but does offer in general, a measure more protection and goes off during your opponents' turn with Force backups and such. Aluren is of similar speed to Solidarity, and its combo is somewhat more consistent, and can be difficult to disrupt once it gets going, save stifling effects.

[Cavius The Great]

I agree with you totally that every combo deck has it's weaknesses and strengths. That's something I originally overlooked. Every matchup is different for 'said' decks and playing a certain combo deck is probably primarily based on your metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

Wouldn't this mean that the combo deck able to win the fastest while also protect itself the most is the "best"?

Do any combo decks come close to this criteria?

[Dilettante]

Wouldn't this mean that the combo deck able to win the fastest while also protect itself the most is the "best"?

Do any combo decks come close to this criteria?

Not really. See your meta. In an environment with a few counters, but a lack of cards like Chalice and Trinisphere, I like TES for its consistency and protection. If there are cards like Chalice, I'd rather have Solidarity for its ability to do end-of-turn sweeping followed by crunching them during their opponents' next turn after all the disruption has been negated... Then, there's Ichorid...

[Cavius The Great]

Ichorid dies to GY hate though. Not exactly "perfect" in my book. :wink:

[Dilettante]

Ichorid dies to GY hate though. Not exactly "perfect" in my book. :wink:

It also gets disrupted by a Mogg Fanatic these days. I run into SO MUCH ICHORID NOW! Gah! At least that's what Dragon Stompy's for... but just to laugh my ass off, I'll actually try my hand at *playing* that stupid Bureaucratic Nightmare I now have...

[Cavius The Great]

It also gets disrupted by a Mogg Fanatic these days. I run into SO MUCH ICHORID NOW! Gah! At least that's what Dragon Stompy's for... but just to laugh my ass off, I'll actually try my hand at *playing* that stupid Bureaucratic Nightmare I now have...

What's Bureaucratic Nightmare? Can I get a list?

EDIT: I saw the list through a PM. Thanx. Well, you know, you're list looks pretty damn good for a casual deck. You definitely should play it in a tournament and give us a tourney report. =)

[Dilettante]

I just need to find 2 Anvil of Bogardin. Meh, shouldn't be too hard. When's the last time you saw someone not build a deck out of love for a card or theme... or simple effectiveness, but out of simply desiring to cause the world pain and suffering? That... is the Bureaucratic Nightmare.

Anyway, I still like TES for a blind metagame for overall effectiveness. It's *can* be very fast... it *can* protect itself fairly well, even post-board... it can win a fair amount turn 1, but does not rely on it. It's very weak in a monoblack/stompy dominated scene, but does just fine against Threshold and Goblins. Thank you, wastedlife and co., for making the most thought-provoking deck I've played.

[Cavius The Great]

I just checked SCG.com and Anvil of Bogardan is 4 dollars and out of stock. This is crazy. What deck plays them besides yours? I never realized they were so popular.

[Dilettante]

Exactly. I think I can grab one from one of the local stores I frequent. But maybe someone collects them...

[GiantGrowth]

Wouldn't this mean that the combo deck able to win the fastest while also protect itself the most is the "best"?

Do any combo decks come close to this criteria?

Thats why hulk flash was so great, a very compact and cheap combo so its fast, but there was plenty of room in the deck for protection and back up plans.

[Cavius The Great]

Exactly. I think I can grab one from one of the local stores I frequent. But maybe someone collects them...

Exactly what? You still haven't answered my question. Why are they sold out everywhere? I doubt someone just collects them, when they're sold out at every website.

[Dilettante]

Exactly what? You still haven't answered my question. Why are they sold out everywhere? I doubt someone just collects them, when they're sold out at every website.

No clue... I do not know of any deck that would use that card... so I'd hazard to guess someone collects them... Reminds me, I still have to clean house on Censorships at one site...

[Cavius The Great]

No clue... I do not know of any deck that would use that card... so I'd hazard to guess someone collects them... Reminds me, I still have to clean house on Censorships at one site...

I happen to have 3 for trade. Let me know if you want to meet at YourMoveGames and make the trade there. I might want to hold on to them though, who knows. What are you referring to by "censorship"?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Cavius, to answer your questions, the fastest deck in the format without question is Spanish Inquisition. Now there are numerous different builds of it but B.C.'s 2x land version with 1x Goblin Charbelcher is IMOP the optimum build of the deck. Now the reason I say this is better than Belcher is because when you play Belcher you usually don't have a choice of how to kill your opponent, you just play what is in your hand. With SI you can usually choose VIA Infernal Tutor which way you want to combo out, or if you are a few mana short of the IGG loop you just Empty the Warrens for usually 12-16. The deck goes off turn 1 just an INSANE amount of times, from my personal experience it is around 20-30% (This is lethal Tendrils not Empty the Warrens). I think the reason most people play Belcher over this is the simple fact of thinking. The hardest part of Belcher is counting to 7; SI is damn hard to play well much like TES is. But decks like this, every single one of them lose to Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance/Thorn and have great diffuculty fighting through Chalice for 0 and 1. Even with all the disenchants and shattering sprees you generally just cant win. But that is just the balance, sacrificing vulnerability for pure speed. And to answer your other question, decks like IGGY, Solidarity, or Spring Tide are a little more resilient to the hate cards, but they still just completly shut them down and most of the time it is long enough for your opponent to win. Playing any combo deck in the current meta that can't possibly win consistently on turns 1-3 just simply isnt worth playing unless it can reliably fight through Chalice and Trinisphere.

[Iranon]

Just to outline how fast the damn thing is... A 2-land SI build without EtW kills at about the same rate that Belcher goes off. No time window to fight back with Needles, Explosives or whatever else - the opponent just dies. A player so bent on speed that they mulligan turn-2 hands will get a turn-1 kill more often than not.
If you include EtW, you will naturally kill a little less quickly but then SI reliably does something hideous on turn 1, without taking undue chances.

The major downside is Chalice of the Void. A chalice @0 instantly renders 20 cards useless for anything but generating storm, and 4 become worse than useless (No way of getting rid of Culling the Weak -> no hellbent Infernal Tutors).
All fast combo is vulnerable, but rarely to that extent.
Trinisphere is worse, of course, but a first turn Trinisphere is much harder to achieve and with the right follow-up spells game over for pretty much any deck.