Candidates for Unbanning

[Bongo]

With the March B&R announcement coming, let's get the ball rolling.

In the discussion Menendian started with his article for Vintage, Mike Turian said he was listening. There is a good chance we will get heard too, particularly because Legacy has been used in high-profile events.

Which cards are safe to unban?

Please post your reasoning without flaming.

[DragoFireheart]

Definitely Worldgorger Dragon. There are plenty of graveyard combo decks that are just as fast [if not faster] than the old dragon-animate dead combo. Most of these graveyard combo decks are also more stable.

Let us play with the Dragon again.

[Elfrago]

Monolith looks safe to unban. We already got plenty of better mana accellerations.

Gush looks safe too!

All the others could create some broken things .

[Brehn]

Gush looks safe too!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Same discussion as every time... I voted for Black Vise, Land Tax, Earthcraft and Dragon.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Land Tax is a very divided issue. Threads like this always turn into a stalemate of Land Tax stances. Let's avoid that.

How good are Dragon combo decks? They seem to be vulnerable to graveyard hate, instant speed removal, and counterspells. They require a creature in the graveyard, a reanimator in hand, and an instant speed win in hand. It seems worse then Breakfast.

Mind Twist is unlikly due to the printing of Mind Shatter.

[Media314r8]

Grim monololith is definatly safe, I don't expect to see many morphling decks running around legacy anytime soon, as 5/1 flying morphling races just as fast as 5/6 goyf on the ground.

Black Vise is arguably fine, but has become less fair, as control decks can now abuse the hell out of jace is vise gets unrestricted.

IMO, Land Tax only breaks the kind of decks that are not quite tier two right now, and I don't see the two card combo of land tax + scroll rack + :2: being any more broken than SDT+CB or ___ en-kor + cephalid illusionist. White doesnt have the permission to prtect such a combo, and I feel it would make the format more fun to add a budget gimicky tier 1.5 deck. Land Tax gets my vote.

[Afro]

These posts are stupid, no offense. They pop up every time the announcement rolls around. Just search up the last one if you want to look at what other people think. Nothing new ever comes up and its all the same shit said anyways, with random tards claiming random brokeness is fine.

With that out of the way I'll add my 2 cents. I could care less about stuff getting unbanned but why isn't Tabernacle banned yet due to cost restraints. It is around 60 for Italian and 80 for English which is almost as much as Mask was when it took a dump because it was expensive when the format rotated.

[meanee]

Voted for everything except Hermit and recruiter.
Hermit druid is an insane combo-enabler, and even though we need some of those (unban dragon!), there has to be some reasoning, and some amount of "fair" in the card/combo you unban. That would not be the case with Hermit dude.

I don't know if the recruiter would break the format, but I just don't like the idea that you make goblins even stronger... And then there is the infamous food chain goblins, which I would very much hope never to have to fight in a legacytournament...

The other cards seem perfectly safe to me, AND they would make the format even broader, and maybe make a combo-deck playable... That would be nice.

- meanee

[zulander]

I'd love to play against someone who casts a land tax.

[Elfrago]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Same discussion as every time... I voted for Black Vise, Land Tax, Earthcraft and Dragon.

Hey, there is no fastbond in this format!!

[DragoFireheart]

With that out of the way I'll add my 2 cents. I could care less about stuff getting unbanned but why isn't Tabernacle banned yet due to cost restraints. It is around 60 for Italian and 80 for English which is almost as much as Mask was when it took a dump because it was expensive when the format rotated.

With that logic, Tarmogoyf should be banned.

[FoolofaTook]

With that logic, Tarmogoyf should be banned.

Tarmogoyf should be banned just because it invalidates so many other cards that might find their way into decks. However Force of Will would have to be banned also under that scenario.

[TeenieBopper]

Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

- Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

[Afro]

With that logic, Tarmogoyf should be banned.

When Goyf or Force hits $250-300 for a play set then yes they should be. The DCI makes stupid policies but doesn't follow them. By their logic Grim Tutor should have been banned a long time ago. It now goes for $100+ ea.

[Nightmare]

Fakespam's quote

That was certainly true at the time, but Goyf kinda kicks that classic quote in the teeth. Green doesn't suck anymore.

[TeenieBopper]

Way to miss the point.

[Sims]

That was certainly true at the time, but Goyf kinda kicks that classic quote in the teeth. Green doesn't suck anymore.


I think he pulls it out more for the part about R&D and not talking about B&R Changes than the green sucks part. But meh.

Give me FCG Back, or Metalworker so that I could at least try to build an attempt at reviving Welder MUD... You know, splashing green for Goyf. GoyfMud maybe.

In before lockjob, btw.

[Nightmare]

Way to miss the point.Well, the other half is wrong, too. We actually do kinda know more than R&D, cause they don't, you know, play Legacy.

Edit - And screw you guys, I already wrote all about this for my article next week.

[TeenieBopper]

Well, the other half is wrong, too. We actually do kinda know more than R&D, cause they don't, you know, play Legacy.

Edit - And screw you guys, I already wrote all about this for my article next week.

Yeah. Right. Worldgorger Dragon? Hermit Druid? Dream Halls? Black Vise? Fucking Grim Monolith? Are you shitting me? Legacy players have every idea what's going on.

Yeah fuckin' right.

Last time R&D listened to the Legacy players, an entire format got destroyed. Excuse me for thinking that the general population of magic players are fucking retarded.

[zulander]

I think LED should be banned. I loose to a lot of combo decks and it's annoying when they get free mana that they shouldn't. I'm going to cry about it and hope it gets banned so I can play decks that don't require good cards. Also, ban tarmogoyf and Islands.

[FoolofaTook]

How about just banning cards that are auto-includes in 90% of all decks playing that color?

Or would that eventually lead to all cards being banned because the stepped heirarchy of card power is just that clear?

[Pinder]

I think LED should be banned. I loose to a lot of combo decks and it's annoying when they get free mana that they shouldn't. I'm going to cry about it and hope it gets banned so I can play decks that don't require good cards. Also, ban tarmogoyf and Islands.

Winnar!

Seriously. These discussions are always stupid and fruitless.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Yeah. Right. Worldgorger Dragon? Hermit Druid? Dream Halls? Black Vise? Fucking Grim Monolith? Are you shitting me? Legacy players have every idea what's going on.Is Worldgorger Dragon too strong? I asked a series of questions in an attempt to gauge the power of the deck. I've heard that it's easy to disrupt and "flimsy." Am I misinformed?

[DragoFireheart]

Is Worldgorger Dragon too strong? I asked a series of questions in an attempt to gauge the power of the deck. I've heard that it's easy to disrupt and "flimsy." Am I misinformed?

1. Dragon loses to yard hate. More so than Ichorid.

2. Dragon looses to instant-speed removal/bounce.

3. Dragon looses to counter spell.

Sure, you can make a control-shell out of it but it's no faster than most any other deck. One Extirpate on World Gorger and the deck folds.

Considering that Ichorid is a legal deck, I see no reason why World Gorger couldn't be made legal again. If someone could be so kind as to explain to me why I'm more than happy to listen.

[Nihil Credo]

These threads will remain a waste of everyone's time until vBulletin implements the long-awaited "Ouija Board" feature.

[Zilla]

Considering that Ichorid is a legal deck, I see no reason why World Gorger couldn't be made legal again.
There's a reason. It's because it's a rules nightmare. The interaction between Animate Dead and WGD was never intended, and instead of errataing all Animate effects to prevent the unintentional combo, it was easier for them to just ban the Dragon itself.

That Dragon combo was easily one of the best decks in 1.5 while it was legal just provided a convenient excuse. It's weaksauce without Bazaar as a draw engine, but I still don't think they're going to unban it.

[Machinus]

Nothing to see here. I'm not writing about this until before the June annoucement.

[DragoFireheart]

There's a reason. It's because it's a rules nightmare. The interaction between Animate Dead and WGD was never intended, and instead of errataing all Animate effects to prevent the unintentional combo, it was easier for them to just ban the Dragon itself.

That Dragon combo was easily one of the best decks in 1.5 while it was legal just provided a convenient excuse. It's weaksauce without Bazaar as a draw engine, but I still don't think they're going to unban it.

Similar to how Shahrazad was banned? Not an over-powered card but was simply too annoying to deal with?

I guess I understand that, but World Gorger also don't drag the game on forever. It's a strange interaction and may have been over-powered in the past but no longer is as over-powered compared to many combo decks that exist today.

Also, why was Land Tax banned? Because of Scroll Rack?

[Dilettante]

Similar to how Shahrazad was banned? Not an over-powered card but was simply too annoying to deal with?

I guess I understand that, but World Gorger also don't drag the game on forever. It's a strange interaction and may have been over-powered in the past but no longer is as over-powered compared to many combo decks that exist today.

Shaharazad allowed players to get a 1-0 win or else draw without difficulty. It's a stall/delay of game card. Also, consider what happens when games go to time... When time is called, you play Shaharazad. After that, players have 2 turns to win ALL THE GAMES or that game is a draw. They want players to actually "play the game", not make a deck designed around an entire match of fouls and free throws.

*goes back to work at toying with Chains of Mephistopheles*

[FoolofaTook]

Similar to how Shahrazad was banned? Not an over-powered card but was simply too annoying to deal with?

I guess I understand that, but World Gorger also don't drag the game on forever. It's a strange interaction and may have been over-powered in the past but no longer is as over-powered compared to many combo decks that exist today.

Also, why was Land Tax banned? Because of Scroll Rack?

Land Tax was banned because it provided extreme card advantage, increased the value of going first, and generally forced the opponent into a very uncomfortable play pattern early in the game.

It was just too good a one-drop in decks that were built to take advantage of it. Kind of like Aether Vial but not restricted to decks with moderate to high numbers of creatures.

[AnwarA101]

How about just banning cards that are auto-includes in 90% of all decks playing that color?

Or would that eventually lead to all cards being banned because the stepped heirarchy of card power is just that clear?


This would not accomplish anything. People would end up playing the second best alternative (provided one exists) or completely abandon strategies that work with cards that can't be replaced. It isn't even clear that such a strategy would make for a more balanced format than the current one.

I voted for Land Tax and Mind Twist. I really like Mind Twist, but I'm not even convinced its very good.

[nastynate]

Similar to how Shahrazad was banned? Not an over-powered card but was simply too annoying to deal with?

I guess I understand that, but World Gorger also don't drag the game on forever. It's a strange interaction and may have been over-powered in the past but no longer is as over-powered compared to many combo decks that exist today.

It could still produce consistent turn 2-3 kills. A 6-card opening hand of land, dark ritual, putrid imp, worldgorger dragon, ambassador laquatus, and animate dead gives you turn turn 1 win. God hands aside, here is a rough deck list of what it could look like today.

Engine
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 putrid imp
3 intuition
3 buried alive

Combo Pieces
4 worldgorger dragon
4 animate dead
3 ambassador laquatus
3 necromancy

Protection
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize

Mana
4 dark ritual
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 flooded strand
2 tropical island
2 tundra
1 island
1 swamp

Side-Board
3 orim's chant
3 pernicious deed
3 krosan grip
3 chain of vapor
3 huge beaters (alt. win condition)

I don't know if its better than the combo decks we already have, but it's certainly strong enough to see some play. Now imagine we have the time to tweak and perfect it...

[etrigan]

Also, why was Land Tax banned?

Because when Wizards created the format, the just sorta guessed what would be too powerful. They got a lot of it right. They got Land Tax wrong.

Machinus' last B&R article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14528.html) does a good job, I think, of explaining how not broken Land Tax is.

[Bovinious]

Please no one ever say Land Tax provides "massive card advantage" or anything. The card is God-awful, it wouldnt even see play if it was unbanned because it sucks and white sucks. The fact that it is still banned is a testament to how little WOTC knows and cares about Legacy, and the fact that people think it is banworthy or even playable shows how little people know about...Magic in general, amoung other things. That is all.

[Braves]

Please no one ever say Land Tax provides "massive card advantage" or anything. The card is God-awful, it wouldnt even see play if it was unbanned because it sucks and white sucks. The fact that it is still banned is a testament to how little WOTC knows and cares about Legacy, and the fact that people think it is banworthy or even playable shows how little people know about...Magic in general, amoung other things. That is all.

Exactly. I seriously doubt land tax would see much play in the current format.

[Wallace]

Please no one ever say Land Tax provides "massive card advantage" or anything. The card is God-awful, it wouldn't even see play if it was unbanned because it sucks and white sucks. The fact that it is still banned is a testament to how little WOTC knows and cares about Legacy, and the fact that people think it is ban worthy or even playable shows how little people know about...Magic in general, among other things. That is all.


First I do think Land Tax could be un-banned and the format would be OK. To call Land Tax, "God-awful" in a gross understatement. Tax was an amazing card for a long time and if un-banned would find room in many decks and there would probably be decks built around it. Please don't speak of things that you know nothing about...

[Machinus]

Just as a reminder, I still have an open challenge to anyone to come up with a playable Land Tax deck. Nobody has come close.

[DragoFireheart]

[Imagines Land Tax with LftL and Seismic Assault]+

Zomg, 12 damage a turn anyone?

[Shtriga]

Tarmogoyf should be banned just because it invalidates so many other cards that might find their way into decks. However Force of Will would have to be banned also under that scenario.

but, FoW requires the deck to be somewhat built around it (largely blue based) while goyf goes into every single deck in existence with a minor splash, effort, and even necessity (how many decks are playing goyf "just because"?). and it just makes like 50% of the creatures in the format (that would be playable otherwise) obsolete. force doesn't have near as much impact, and isn't nearly as format warping

but there have been way too many goyf threads already (getting old) so I should have kept my mouth shut :laugh:

[FoolofaTook]

Just as a reminder, I still have an open challenge to anyone to come up with a playable Land Tax deck. Nobody has come close.


There's no point to brainstorming a broken deck based on a card that you can't use. And if you think you have an idea there's no point to releasing it prematurely if there's any chance that the card will be unbanned.

But as an example, let's look at two color decks either U/W or B/W and ask ourselves what those decks could do if they were thinning the deck and acquiring 3-6 extra cards early and also playing things like Aether Vial to force the opponent to play lands.

The ability to draw 3 blanks a turn out of your deck early on is actually quite strong, particularly when the blanks are actually one of the fundamental basics of the game.

I almost wish they'd unban Land Tax because in 6 months they'd reban it only we'd all know why by then and we wouldn't have it come up every 3 months like clockwork.

[Machinus]

There's no point to brainstorming a broken deck based on a card that you can't use. And if you think you have an idea there's no point to releasing it prematurely if there's any chance that the card will be unbanned.

Yes, there is a point. If it were possible to break Land Tax, and someone did and shared it with me, I certainly wouldn't give it away, but I would obviously stop campaigning for it's return.

I know one or two talented deckbuilders in this format and no one has been able to make the card good. What makes you think you can? That's what CHALLENGE means.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, there is a point. If it were possible to break Land Tax, and someone did and shared it with me, I certainly wouldn't give it away, but I would obviously stop campaigning for it's return.

I know one or two talented deckbuilders in this format and no one has been able to make the card good. What makes you think you can? That's what CHALLENGE means.

Combine Life From the Loam and some other discard crap [Seismic Assault] with Land Tax for massive effects.

[FoolofaTook]

Yes, there is a point. If it were possible to break Land Tax, and someone did and shared it with me, I certainly wouldn't give it away, but I would obviously stop campaigning for it's return.

I know one or two talented deckbuilders in this format and no one has been able to make the card good. What makes you think you can? That's what CHALLENGE means.

Well, I'll absolutely guarantee you that if they unban Land Tax I'll try to break it. It fits very nicely into my preferred B/U/W universe.

The other thing is that there are only so many hours in the week that I can devote to Magic. I'm having a hard enough time putting stuff that's meta-competitive together with the cards I can play with. I never play netdecks or lists that I didn't put together myself. It's more competitive to play proven decks but a lot less fun for a deckbuilder.

BTW, I voted for Black Vise, Dream Halls and Mind Twist. I don't think any of those cards would be seriously unbalanced in this meta. Black Vise is ugly, but there are a lot of one-drops *looks at Aether Vial, Nimble Mongoose and Goblin Lackey in particular* that can do as much or more damage than a vise.

[Di]

Combine Life From the Loam and some other discard crap [Seismic Assault] with Land Tax for massive effects.

And you still pack it to combo. And have to run a lot of basic lands. That seems like a sure-fire tier 3 deck to me. Hell, if you cut Land Tax from that deck, you've already bumped it up to tier 2.

- Dragon? Without Bazaar, it's slow. Playable? Moreso than current Reanimator builds, but still not something that'd be format breaking. At it's best, it'd probably be on par with something like Cephalid Breakfast, and that isn't making me shake in my boots either. It'd just turn out to be another okay, not good, combo deck. If you want to win, you'd need to like, Orim's Chant the opponent first to not lose to Extirpate, then Chain of Vapor Pithing Needle/Leyline of the Void, then dump Dragon, then cast Animate Dead, and then make sure you have a win condition. I'm not really for or against it. The only way Dragon would be playable again is if Entomb was unbanned with it.

- Gush? No. Give Threshold Gush and see what happens to the format.

- Earthcraft is understandable. It's a base-green combo deck. It isn't all that difficult to deal with. I think it's fine.

- Monolith, eh, probably not. Probably not broken, but it can do some dumb shit. Metalworker is fine though.

- Bringing FCG back with Recruiter would be interesting. It wasn't overly powerful in the old 1.5, but it could be a huge powerhouse here. I think I'd like to see a change like that.

- Hermit Druid is a one-card combo deck. That's kinda stupid. Who cares if if dies to Fanatic and removal, you can run enough Force of Wills and crap to
blow it off.

- Black Vise is iffy. We'd have to test it out.

- Dream Halls, Mind Twist, and Land Tax are meh cards. I don't care if they're in the format or not, they won't see play. If people ran Mind Twist, others would just run Misdirection or Divert, and laugh. The others are too bad to see play.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Combine Life From the Loam and some other discard crap [Seismic Assault] with Land Tax for massive effects.In order to pull that off, you would need a three colour mana base that can support triple red and have at least six basics to make Land Tax not worthless. What do you plan on doing until you assemble that combo?

I'm going to plug Machinus's article here. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14528.html)

[DragoFireheart]

In order to pull that off, you would need a three colour mana base that can support triple red and have at least six basics to make Land Tax not worthless. What do you plan on doing until you assemble that combo?

I'm going to plug Machinus's article here. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14528.html)

How about crazy White-Loam deck using Mana Bond + Land Tax + Horn of Greed + Life of the Loam + Zuran Orb + Island Sanctuary?

[idraleo]

MonoLith shouLD be unbanned (as far as it is useLess), by myseLf i' d Like to see Tinker unbanned in Legacy, because it wiLL probabLy have the same impact as RepLenish unban, but giving the access to see soe new strategy and combo buiLd variants. TpC is an ugLy prospective, but there's aLways ton's of decks running StP that baLance it.

[GiantGrowth]

Combine Life From the Loam and some other discard crap [Seismic Assault] with Land Tax for massive effects.

sure, if by massive effects you mean, a decent deck. But would that be enough to stop an unbanning? would 3c loamtaxassaultgoyf break the format? Not that I know much, but I doubt it.

[from Cairo]

MonoLith shouLD be unbanned (as far as it is useLess), by myseLf i' d Like to see Tinker unbanned in Legacy, because it wiLL probabLy have the same impact as RepLenish unban, but giving the access to see soe new strategy and combo buiLd variants. TpC is an ugLy prospective, but there's aLways ton's of decks running StP that baLance it.

Um... no, Replenish requires set up to do anything resembling powerful, Intuition for some busted enchantments then Replenish them... You're looking at T2-3 at its fastest with Replenish something like Turn 1 Mox Tomb, Intuition, Turn 2 Land Replenish. It's vulnerable to GY hate which is already being used to fight other combos and requires atleast 2 cards to set up, more if you want to go off in the first 3 turns.

Tinker is busted in half and will make broken turn 1 plays before you're opponent has done anything. Turn 1 Mox Tomb Tinker, put the most powerful artifact in your deck into play, with Force of Will being the only answer an opponent could offer. If they pull up Darksteel Colossus then you have 1 Turn to find a Swords to Plowshares or you are dead, assuming you're playing Swords to Plowshares and the Tinker player doesn't have Force.

There is nothing balanced about being forced to run Swords to Plowshares or just lose.

PS uR tYPing Lyke dIS iS ReTArded

[DragoFireheart]

MonoLith shouLD be unbanned (as far as it is useLess), by myseLf i' d Like to see Tinker unbanned in Legacy, because it wiLL probabLy have the same impact as RepLenish unban, but giving the access to see soe new strategy and combo buiLd variants. TpC is an ugLy prospective, but there's aLways ton's of decks running StP that baLance it.

The fact that you suggested Tinker as a card to be unbanned kills any sort of credibility your opinion may have.

Really, what the hell are you smoking?!

TINKER!

Y halo thar 1st turn Darksteel of Win, promptly supported by lots of great counter magic. Either counter the Tinker, swords the Darksteel or prepare to die.

[Wallace]

The fact that you suggested Tinker as a card to be unbanned kills any sort of credibility your opinion may have.

Really, what the hell are you smoking?!

TINKER!

Y halo thar 1st turn Darksteel of Win, promptly supported by lots of great counter magic. Either counter the Tinker, swords the Darksteel or prepare to die.

But you could...ummm....or you could aaaaaa....or maybe....

Nope, Tinker is just that good...o well.

[Soto]

- Monolith, eh, probably not. Probably not broken, but it can do some dumb shit. Metalworker is fine though.


Are you saying Metalworker is fine for unbanning? Imo it should remain on the ban list as it can allow (even if a little late in game) for some sick plays as Artifacts have some very excellent expensive spells.

[Shtriga]

necropotence






lol j/k (I'd like to have had the chance of playing with it, back in 97 I thought it sucked ass)

[Illissius]

I used to think Gush might be okay, without Fastbond or Will in the format, maybe bringing Threshold up to around the level of Goblins; but with Tarmogoyf now printed, no. fucking. way.

Dream Halls, Earthcraft, and Land Tax are crap, and could be unbanned without a second thought.

Dragon, Mind Twist, Vise, and Hermit are cards that, while they may not be very powerful these days, also (unlike the above three) have a very legitimate chance of actually being broken, and are not very fun for anyone besides the two people who get turned on by stupidly broken combos (go play Vintage). Best case, they don't have much of an impact, worst case, they make the format significantly worse. Not worth the risk.

I'd love to have Monolith and especially Vampiric Tutor back, but these also have a very good chance of being too powerful, and would need extensive testing -- which the DCI is unlikely to do -- before being taken off, unless the DCI suddenly does a 180 regarding their position on unbanning cards for the hell of it to see what happens (though, with Gush in Vintage, it's arguable they've already turned some).

[lebarion]

What do you think about Frantic Search?
Besides from making Solidarity more playable, what impact it would have?

[Dilettante]

What do you think about Frantic Search?
Besides from making Solidarity more playable, what impact it would have?

Cloud of Faeries/Frantic Search Storm deck. Oh yeah, and Eldariel's pet project kills you *very* consistently on turn 4.

[Maveric78f]

I am candidate to be unbanned from Rico/Exhausted.

[DragoFireheart]

Wait a minute, I thought tutors were banned because they let you fetch the uber-broken cards.

Since the uber-broken cards are banned, why not allow the tutors back in again?

Why not make a Restricted/Ban list for Legacy and not just a Ban list?

[Soto]

^Because then it would be vintage.

[edgewalker]

For people claiming land tax is broken, you need to remember in order to use, you need to not play lands. It's "broken" ability is only usable when you have fewer lands than your opponent. If you're not playing lands, you're not playing spells, which means your losing.

That and the fact that basic lands are fucking broken right now.

[FoolofaTook]

necropotence






lol j/k (I'd like to have had the chance of playing with it, back in 97 I thought it sucked ass)

Necropotence and Balance was just obscene. Balance them to zero cards and then pick 7 off of Necro at the end of the turn. That was a turn 1 or 2 event way too often.

[FoolofaTook]

For people claiming land tax is broken, you need to remember in order to use, you need to not play lands. It's "broken" ability is only usable when you have fewer lands than your opponent. If you're not playing lands, you're not playing spells, which means your losing.

That and the fact that basic lands are fucking broken right now.

And what all this means is that if you drop Land Tax on turn 1 your opponent has two choices: stop dropping lands himself or drop his 2nd land and allow you to get whatever you have planned going. Given that most Land Tax decks were designed to run off of 1 or 2 mana tops and that they mostly had other plans for the land they were pulling it was a horribly constrained situation for the opponent.

The only cards in the meta at the moment that dictate to the opponent in such harsh terms are Aether Vial and Leylines of the Void and both of them are restricted to certain kinds of decks or opponents. Land Tax has no restrictions in terms of what type of deck it would go in, other than the deck needs to have some way to produce white mana consistently on turn 1.

[Dilettante]

Necropotence and Balance was just obscene. Balance them to zero cards and then pick 7 off of Necro at the end of the turn. That was a turn 1 or 2 event way too often.

But right before Ice Age, you were allowed 4 Balances... so, turn 1, you'd drop your Sol Ring, other mana producers... slice your hand to almost nothing... then Balance and play something like a Serra. Ah, the 'good 'ol days'... And then it got Restricted, likely due to Zuran Orb being a factor... Of course, now we know which one was broken... It was a much more relaxed game when Craw Wurms and Juggernauts were something to fear... and RED was the 'fast mana' color...

[Anusien]

Can we edit the poll to have a None option? It skews the results because otherwise the voting count is too low.

[rufus]

Huh? IIRC Balance was restricted long before Ice Age came out. The requirements to get Balance + Necropotence into play on turn 1 are pretty prohibitive even for that era's Type 1, and Red didn't really get any sort of usable mana production until much later.

[Dilettante]

Huh? IIRC Balance was restricted long before Ice Age came out. The requirements to get Balance + Necropotence into play on turn 1 are pretty prohibitive even for that era's Type 1, and Red didn't really get any sort of usable mana production until much later.

There was multiple types then... I forget which, but Balance was not restricted in at least one of them. Red had Orcish Lumberjacks, Mana Flare, Gauntlet of Might...

[FoolofaTook]

But right before Ice Age, you were allowed 4 Balances... so, turn 1, you'd drop your Sol Ring, other mana producers... slice your hand to almost nothing... then Balance and play something like a Serra. Ah, the 'good 'ol days'... And then it got Restricted, likely due to Zuran Orb being a factor... Of course, now we know which one was broken... It was a much more relaxed game when Craw Wurms and Juggernauts were something to fear... and RED was the 'fast mana' color...

The really gross (and realistic )drops for Balance went like this:

Turn 1 - Drop a Plateau, drop a Mox Ruby, Chain Lightning on you for 3.

End of opponent's turn: bolt ya for 3.

Turn 2 - Drop a Mox Pearl, drop a Mishra's Factory, put out The Rack, cast Balance, is it resolving?, bolt ya for 3.

Sean Fleischman probably did that to me a half dozen times late in tourneys to knock me out between 1996 and 1997. He was my personal wall for awhile in the round of 16.

[Dilettante]

The really gross (and realistic )drops for Balance went like this:

Turn 1 - Drop a Plateau, drop a Mox Ruby, Chain Lightning on you for 3.

End of opponent's turn: bolt ya for 3.

Turn 2 - Drop a Mox Pearl, drop a Mishra's Factory, put out The Rack, cast Balance, is it resolving?, bolt ya for 3.

Sean Fleischman probably did that to me a half dozen times late in tourneys to knock me out between 1996 and 1997. He was my personal wall for awhile in the round of 16.

But back then, we didn't have that neat little thing called a stack... and there was that 'other' speed called... 'interrupt' =P Ah, the old days of arguing 'who called what first'... but back then, I was a little dinky teenager playing occasionally at MIT.

[FoolofaTook]

Huh? IIRC Balance was restricted long before Ice Age came out. The requirements to get Balance + Necropotence into play on turn 1 are pretty prohibitive even for that era's Type 1, and Red didn't really get any sort of usable mana production until much later.


No, Balance was restricted after the Type I and Type II format split and after Ice Age came out. I'm about 95% sure of that. And I'm also 95% sure that it was restricted because of it's effect in Type II, at the time making the restricted list for Type I meant a card was no longer eligible for play in Type II. (I think.) Many Type I players looked at the restriction of Balance as a godsend, I know that I did.

I built a deck for a friend to play in the very first Pro Tour in NYC. It was B/W/U and had Balance and Necropotence and Zuran Orb at the heart of the deck with a few counters, some white removal and a nasty set of cheap black critters. The tourney type was Type II and the inclusion of Balance and the other two cards tells me that for at least a short period Balance was still unrestricted. I might be misremembering the initial Type II rules and I guess it's possible Balance was restricted, but I don't think so.

[Tacosnape]

Just as a reminder, I still have an open challenge to anyone to come up with a playable Land Tax deck. Nobody has come close.

Because most of us spend our time working on decks that are playable in real formats.

[TeenieBopper]

So why are you playing Legacy?

[Tacosnape]

So why are you playing Legacy?

Ignoring your witty repartee, because Legacy is a real format.

[kirdape3]

More like you can win sixty matches in a row in Legacy, and if you were to win sixty matches in a row in Extended you'd be on the Pro Tour and winning multiples of those.

[FoolofaTook]

More like you can win sixty matches in a row in Legacy, and if you were to win sixty matches in a row in Extended you'd be on the Pro Tour and winning multiples of those.

What's he playing? Mono-black? I can't think of anything else that would draw consistently enough to win 60 matches in a row.

[Nightmare]

What's he playing? Mono-black? I can't think of anything else that would draw consistently enough to win 60 matches in a row.


Sanctioned Streak Without A Loss: 56 (55-0-1)

Of course,


Birmingham, ALI can't imagine the competition is particularly fierce in Alabama.

[TeenieBopper]

Ignoring your witty repartee, because Legacy is a real format.

I guess if we're going to be real generous with the word 'real'.

[Dilettante]

I guess if we're going to be real generous with the word 'real'.

'real' format: IRONMAN MAGIC!

The following cards become infinitely more fun:

Detonate
Inferno
Mindslaver

[DragoFireheart]

I guess if we're going to be real generous with the word 'real'.

Stop being so selfish. The world doesn't revolve around you. :tongue:

[Tacosnape]

Of course,

I can't imagine the competition is particularly fierce in Alabama.

It's not particularly docile, either. I've played Threshold, Goblins, Landstill, Survival, Ichorid, Stax, Enchantress, Sui Black, Solidarity, Belcher, Pox, Slivers, Burn, and Train Wreck (Which was what caused the draw) all in that span. I amassed the streak piloting Landstill, BGW Survival, Goblins, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, and Solidarity. It's also a feat of incredible luck more than anything and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Granted, the tournaments aren't huge and we have a notable lack of Cephalid Breakfast/TES in the metagame, but the decks are solid and the players on the whole are pretty good.

Also, in defense of our state, looking at the top 20 Eternal in the United States, only New York has more players there.

[matelml]

I would love to have Vampiric Tutor unbanned. It would certainly be a big change in the format but I don't think it's too good. It's more efficient than Mystical and Enlightened Tutor, but it won't make a unbeatable deck, so I don't think it should be banned. TES doesn't really need more power, but I would have fun with it anyway. Also cards that give you that many options when playing and deckbuilding are great cause they reward the better players.

[TrialByFire]

I would love to have Vampiric Tutor unbanned. It would certainly be a big change in the format but I don't think it's too good. It's more efficient than Mystical and Enlightened Tutor, but it won't make a unbeatable deck, so I don't think it should be banned. TES doesn't really need more power, but I would have fun with it anyway. Also cards that give you that many options when playing and deckbuilding are great cause they reward the better players.

Do you even understand what you just said? 1 mana, instant speed, get any card is redonk

[Shtriga]

I would love to have Vampiric Tutor unbanned.

same

not going to happen though

[mujadaddy]

So why are you playing Legacy?Because real Vintage is a joke, and "Casual" just makes you seem wishy-washy? :confused:

[Tacosnape]

I would love to have Vampiric Tutor unbanned. Also cards that give you that many options when playing and deckbuilding are great cause they reward the better players.

Vampiric Tutor doesn't give you more options when playing and deckbuilding. It takes them away. This is because there would no longer be more than a small handful of viable decks not running Vampiric Tutor.

[Zach Tartell]

Of course,

I can't imagine the competition is particularly fierce in Alabama.

To be fair, I'm nine points higher than him (as far as sanctioned matches go), so unless he started at 0, isn't playing sanctioned tournaments, or is lying, there is no way that this is true. I'm a 1644, and Taco's a 1635, at last check. I've been no better than 2-2'ing my locals recently, so either I'm loosing to the best players in the world and he's beating people who just got their DCI number, something is wrong.

[Tacosnape]

To be fair, I'm nine points higher than him (as far as sanctioned matches go), so unless he started at 0, isn't playing sanctioned tournaments, or is lying, there is no way that this is true. I'm a 1644, and Taco's a 1635, at last check. I've been no better than 2-2'ing my locals recently, so either I'm loosing to the best players in the world and he's beating people who just got their DCI number, something is wrong.

I'm a 1977 at the moment, actually. I haven't been 1635 since well before I started posting here. Where'd you get that number from?

EDIT: Nevermind. My Limited rating is 1635. And I have a whopping 12 Limited matches on record. And I'm 10-2 there, so that isn't quite as awful as my rating indicates.

[Michael Keller]

To be fair, I'm nine points higher than him (as far as sanctioned matches go), so unless he started at 0, isn't playing sanctioned tournaments, or is lying, there is no way that this is true. I'm a 1644, and Taco's a 1635, at last check. I've been no better than 2-2'ing my locals recently, so either I'm loosing to the best players in the world and he's beating people who just got their DCI number, something is wrong.

1644 in Syracuse is the equivalent of probably 1690-1695 in most other places. I pulled that out of my ass - but you get the point.

[BreathWeapon]

I used to think Gush might be okay, without Fastbond or Will in the format, maybe bringing Threshold up to around the level of Goblins; but with Tarmogoyf now printed, no. fucking. way.

Dream Halls, Earthcraft, and Land Tax are crap, and could be unbanned without a second thought.

Dragon, Mind Twist, Vise, and Hermit are cards that, while they may not be very powerful these days, also (unlike the above three) have a very legitimate chance of actually being broken, and are not very fun for anyone besides the two people who get turned on by stupidly broken combos (go play Vintage). Best case, they don't have much of an impact, worst case, they make the format significantly worse. Not worth the risk.

I'd love to have Monolith and especially Vampiric Tutor back, but these also have a very good chance of being too powerful, and would need extensive testing -- which the DCI is unlikely to do -- before being taken off, unless the DCI suddenly does a 180 regarding their position on unbanning cards for the hell of it to see what happens (though, with Gush in Vintage, it's arguable they've already turned some).

I think Vampiric Tutor was banned in order to make the other Mirage Tutors, Lim Dul's Vault and Gamble playble. If you unban Vampiric Tutor, then by extension you may as well obsolete everything else.

As far as cards that can come off of the banned list, I think Illusionary Mask and Time Spiral are completely safe picks.

[kabal]

1644 in Syracuse is the equivalent of probably 1690-1695 in most other places. I pulled that out of my ass - but you get the point.

I apologize to the OP, but I wasn't the first to derail this topic. Anyhow...

I am interesting in knowing how many people typically attend one these weekly Syracuse Legacy tournaments.

Quick remark; doesn't seem too intelligent to make such the bold statement as "the skill level in Syracuse is far superior to the rest of the world" does it? Can you actually back this up?

[Michael Keller]

Quick remark; doesn't seem too intelligent to make such the bold statement as "the skill level in Syracuse is far superior to the rest of the world" does it? Can you actually back this up?

Yeah, I can actually. Look at the history of some of the biggest 1.5/Legacy tournaments of all time.

Then check out the number of Syracuse players who regularly top 8 in them. I'm not saying far superior, but I'm confident in my hometown in saying we have some of the best. Absolutely.

[idraleo]

back on Tinker, i'm onLy wandering on how much is viabLe a Tomb-Mox-TpC start up. Ok, it is a good stuff, but i saw it as a "B-pLan": if Tinker reaL get an unban, it is viable that a Large number of pLayers starts run it or pLaying deck with Tinker on MD, meaning that StP wiLL be runned something more than now. Consider that a deck wich probabLy run Tinker wiLL run it to get an istant combo-kiLL or to use it as a powerfuL tooL effect. If you know that a Large number of decks wiLL run 4 stp on main cause of Tinker unban, wiLL you go to TpC on 1st turn? Otherwise, i don't see a very "Large number of counter" that you couLd use to protect your 1st turn coLossus that isn't a Force of WiLL or a turn2 CotV set on 1.

Obv Tinker is one of the best hosers to get a 1st turn CoLossus, but think that dredge couLd end up games on turn2 and 3 with a great constance without a specific hate, the decision is on wich kind of death to die to ;)

[TeenieBopper]

I apologize to the OP, but I wasn't the first to derail this topic. Anyhow...

I am interesting in knowing how many people typically attend one these weekly Syracuse Legacy tournaments.

Quick remark; doesn't seem too intelligent to make such the bold statement as "the skill level in Syracuse is far superior to the rest of the world" does it? Can you actually back this up?

If a Syracuse player tells you that the Syracuse metagame is more advanced than any other developed metagame, they're full of shit. Syracuse isn't the Mecca of Legacy, and hasn't been for a long, long time.

The reason Eternal ratings in Syracuse are higher than normal is because of the way the ratings system works. It's a zero sum system, so if you added up all the ratings and then divided by the total number of players in the system, the result would be 1600. Always. That is, of course, over the entire system. Syracuse, because it's 1.5/Legacy community is so old (going on 10 years now), is a little peculiar. Basically, what happened is people would come to the tournaments, do shitty, and add their points to the pool, and then stop playing. This essentially added points to a zero sum system. Because local Legacy metagames are so inbred, there's no place for these additional points to go. The same number of points are getting traded back and forth over time, but because of the nature of a zero sum system, we're operating around a 1700 sum in this little pocket instead of the 1600 of the entire system.

[Bardo]

Can we edit the poll to have a None option? It skews the results because otherwise the voting count is too low.

With 109 votes cast so far, I doubt it will do much go, but there you go.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm a 1977 at the moment, actually. I haven't been 1635 since well before I started posting here. Where'd you get that number from?

EDIT: Nevermind. My Limited rating is 1635. And I have a whopping 12 Limited matches on record. And I'm 10-2 there, so that isn't quite as awful as my rating indicates.

My bad hoss. That means you're only 333 points higher than me.

...eww, I'm awful.

[TrialByFire]

back on Tinker, i'm onLy wandering on how much is viabLe a Tomb-Mox-TpC start up. Ok, it is a good stuff, but i saw it as a "B-pLan": if Tinker reaL get an unban, it is viable that a Large number of pLayers starts run it or pLaying deck with Tinker on MD, meaning that StP wiLL be runned something more than now. Consider that a deck wich probabLy run Tinker wiLL run it to get an istant combo-kiLL or to use it as a powerfuL tooL effect. If you know that a Large number of decks wiLL run 4 stp on main cause of Tinker unban, wiLL you go to TpC on 1st turn? Otherwise, i don't see a very "Large number of counter" that you couLd use to protect your 1st turn coLossus that isn't a Force of WiLL or a turn2 CotV set on 1.

Obv Tinker is one of the best hosers to get a 1st turn CoLossus, but think that dredge couLd end up games on turn2 and 3 with a great constance without a specific hate, the decision is on wich kind of death to die to ;)

1st: What the hell is a TpC?
2nd: Swords to Plowshares is already played in a majority of decks. Unbanning tinker would force every deck to run Swords, Edict, or Force of Will or all of them.
3rd: Tinker is broken, they will never unban it. Ever. Get over it. It will not be good for the meta, it will not be fun. The end.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also, in defense of our state, looking at the top 20 Eternal in the United States, only New York has more players there.

And given the relatively low Alabama presence in outside tournaments, that leads one to suspect that those points are taken from other Bama players which leads one to suspect that they don't prove anything other than the fact that there appears to be a wide discrepency in playskill there, which leads one to suspect that it is, actually, a rather easy meta-game.

But this thread shouldn't be a meta-game pissing contest.

[Tacosnape]

back on Tinker, i'm onLy wandering on how much is viabLe a Tomb-Mox-TpC start up. Ok, it is a good stuff, but i saw it as a "B-pLan": if Tinker reaL get an unban, it is viable that a Large number of pLayers starts run it or pLaying deck with Tinker on MD, meaning that StP wiLL be runned something more than now. Consider that a deck wich probabLy run Tinker wiLL run it to get an istant combo-kiLL or to use it as a powerfuL tooL effect. If you know that a Large number of decks wiLL run 4 stp on main cause of Tinker unban, wiLL you go to TpC on 1st turn? Otherwise, i don't see a very "Large number of counter" that you couLd use to protect your 1st turn coLossus that isn't a Force of WiLL or a turn2 CotV set on 1.

Obv Tinker is one of the best hosers to get a 1st turn CoLossus, but think that dredge couLd end up games on turn2 and 3 with a great constance without a specific hate, the decision is on wich kind of death to die to ;)

It occurs to me that I'm going to have to bring the brokenness that is Disco Inferno back to illustrate the point that just because a card can be dealt with doesn't mean it isn't broken. Tinker is so far beyond the power level of anything in the entire format it's ridiculous. It's the least acceptable card to unban that isn't an ante card or a flip-in-the-air card, and doesn't cost over $100.

[Bongo]

Please get back to topic.

To all who think a thread like this is pointless:
I know there is a high probability that threads like this turn ugly.
But how else can you get some discussion about the Banned List going? Without discussing, R&D won't do anything for Legacy.
I included the poll to get some much needed data.

There were a few interesting arguments, so let's get back discussing those without flaming. Let's keep it civil, folks.


In my opinion, Earthcraft is safe to unban.
A while ago, I tried to build a viable deck around it, but couldn't come up with anything better than a mediocre combo-control deck. Without counters, Earthcraft combo is too easy to disrupt.

[Meekrab]

It occurs to me that I'm going to have to bring the brokenness that is Disco Inferno back to illustrate the point that just because a card can be dealt with doesn't mean it isn't broken. Tinker is so far beyond the power level of anything in the entire format it's ridiculous. It's the least acceptable card to unban that isn't an ante card or a flip-in-the-air card, and doesn't cost over $100.
Might as well unban Yawgmoth's Will too, so there's at least two viable decks.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It seems like Goyf makes Black Vise's banning look a little silly. Is there any reason for that thing to be banned, anymore?

[BreathWeapon]

It seems like Goyf makes Black Vise's banning look a little silly. Is there any reason for that thing to be banned, anymore?

I seriously doubt it, the only deck's that would even remotely give a shit are Affinity and Burn.

[Lukas Preuss]

I haven't read through the entire thread (just got home yesterday from skiing), but I am surprised that Time Spiral isn't even mentioned in the poll. Let's face it... that card is only good in a High Tide-type deck since High Tide is the best card in the format that lets you create more mana from your lands. There are three High Tide decks in the format right now, Spring Tide, Permanent Waves, and Solidarity. Solidarity would not be able to play Time Spiral. This leaves Spring Tide and Permanent Waves, both not very viable decks at the moment. Time Spiral would make both decks better but not broken... try it out. It's really not very hard to test Time Spiral's impact on the format. Just find out how many copies Spring Tide and Permanent Waves want to run and test it against other decks...

To me, Time Spiral is card that should be unrestricted right after Land Tax.

[Bryant Cook]

I'd play Time Spiral in TES; maindeck and sideboard. It adds mana against control, against landstill. When the game drags into Chant wars, the untapping of lands can be huge.

[Shtriga]

It seems like Goyf makes Black Vise's banning look a little silly. Is there any reason for that thing to be banned, anymore?

I second this one

[Xero]

I second this one

I don't. It would be very possible to get two or more on the first turn, which kills any deck that wants to keep card in hand. Control is already hurting in this format, and Vise hurts it even more.

[Shtriga]

I don't. It would be very possible to get two or more on the first turn, which kills any deck that wants to keep card in hand. Control is already hurting in this format, and Vise hurts it even more.

while I'd love to come up with a good rebuttal to your argument and try to justify that black vise is worthy of unbanning, the only thing I can come up with right now is "damn, you do have a point"

[ParkerLewis]

How about just banning cards that are auto-includes in 90% of all decks playing that color?

Or would that eventually lead to all cards being banned because the stepped heirarchy of card power is just that clear?

dude, you just banned basic lands :D

[MattH]

I think the original post asked for cards which were SAFE to unban?

Safe = Land Tax, Dream Halls, Earthcraft

There's plenty of other cards I think would be okay, but those three are clearly much safer than any others.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I don't. It would be very possible to get two or more on the first turn, which kills any deck that wants to keep card in hand. Control is already hurting in this format, and Vise hurts it even more.


Um, so? It's very possible to get two Dark Rituals in your opening hand, and then go insane, but we don't freak out over it.

If the argument for banning a card is "If you have two in your opening hand and you're on the play, you're probably going to beat a quarter of the field", it's probably safe to play with.

[FoolofaTook]

I haven't observed any decks in the current meta that can successfully hold 5+ cards, or plan to, in hand past turn 3 or so. There are a bunch of decks that refill to 5 or even 6 cards when they play Fact or Fiction or Standstill triggers, but the old days of decks sitting at 7 cards for Library of Alexandria (not that it's legal) seem to be gone.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think the original post asked for cards which were SAFE to unban?

Safe = Land Tax, Dream Halls, Earthcraft

There's plenty of other cards I think would be okay, but those three are clearly much safer than any others.

I pretty much agree with this, those seem like the three SAFEST cards if i had to pick. Land Tax just sucks, it's funny that most people who disagree with this turn around and say things like, "Unban card XXXX (insert name of banned card not on the list)." If anyone would care to debate why Land Tax is broken in any way I'd love to dash those delusions. Dream Halls sucks, you have to build a deck around it, my only concern is that it could be broken someday, even though that seems unlikely even if they printed a blue Dark Ritual. The other part that sucks about Dream Halls is since you build a deck around it, it would only enable one marginal deck or in a nightmare scenario, one broken deck. Earthcraft isn't terrible, but it's not broken either. Any combo/synergy you can get with Earthcraft could be winning the game with a different card/synergy.
Black Vise I don't think is safe to unban, at all. I mean aggro dictates the format right now and control is rather weak. Why would you unban a card that makes aggro stronger against control and can be cast on the first turn by any deck in existance? Then of course the possible nightmare where every deck has 4x Black Vises between main and side and you're sitting opposite a deck called BlackStasis, StasisStax, or BlackStax every other round of a tournament. Either way Black Vise would have a negative impact on the format because it could damage the balance the format has, it could lead to the posterchild decks of unfun games of Magic seeing lots of play, or it could just not be good and maybe get stuck in the occasional sideboard. Definitly not worth the risk at the time I'd say.
As far as Dragon goes, first off it's a really good card. That alone gives me pause to unban it, I mean it was a T1 combo staple for a while. The main two reasons I'm going to have to say they will never unban Dragon is #1 it works in a way that was never intended to happen and is really good at winning the game when it does it. WOTC absolutely hates it when this happens, see Time Vault. #2 is it's ability to draw a game, perhaps the gayest thing ever is your opponent realizing they are about to lose and then reanimating Dragon to force the infinite loop drawing the game. I mean if when Dragon forced the sideways 8 loop they just lost the game I would say unban it, or if the game had some way of fairly breaking the loop if Dragon was the only creature in the GY (without giving infinite mana to cast Sorcs), i could see unbanning it. The way I see it though it's never going to happen. WOTC is nowhere near ready to unban cards of this power level in Legacy and there is no good way to errata Dragon without making it useless or breaking it even more by allowing the player to break infinite and cast Sorceries instead of drawing the game.

Also why are Goblin Recruiter and Grim Monolith on this list but Entomb, Illusionary Mask, and Metalworker are not (I mean cards I could almost put 1/2 of an arguement for unbanning behind)? The fact that ~14% of people voted for Grim Monolith shows that these decisions are best left to WOTC because most of the fans of Legacy secretly want to play Vintage lite. On a related note I think I made an accident and voted for Monolith with going for Earthcraft, whoops. 5AM bedtime,

[Watcher487]

Um, so? It's very possible to get two Dark Rituals in your opening hand, and then go insane, but we don't freak out over it.

If the argument for banning a card is "If you have two in your opening hand and you're on the play, you're probably going to beat a quarter of the field", it's probably safe to play with.

I think there is something that your currently missing right now, Spat. Storm World is still legal and while yeah it's a Enchant World and effects both players it's literally Black Vise 5-8. (To make matters worse, IMO, it's even in the right color as well)

[Lukas Preuss]

Storm World and Black Vise have totally different effects. Storm World does 4 minus X damage, Black Vise deals X minus 4 damage.

[Bardo]

When my little group started playing in 1994 (Revised / Fallen Empires) we had never heard of a Banned List and 4x Vise were in most decks. The win rate for whoever got double Vise was pretty much 100%.

Obviously, today you can't go land, Sol Ring, Vise x2 (opponent effectively starts the game at 10 life) and decks are much, much better than my 4x Mahomoti Djinn / Vesuvan Doppelganger Pieces of Shit, but I know that multiple Black Vises is very scary indeed.

I'm not totally against unbanning Vise, but I wouldn't want it coming off the List without a lot of testing on R&D's part (which I have no confidence they will/could adequately perform).

[FoolofaTook]

When my little group started playing in 1994 (Revised / Fallen Empires) we had never heard of a Banned List and 4x Vise were in most decks. The win rate for whoever got double Vise was pretty much 100%.

Obviously, today you can't go land, Sol Ring, Vise x2 (opponent effectively starts the game at 10 life) and decks are much, much better than my 4x Mahomoti Djinn Pieces of Shit, but I know that multiple Black Vises is very scary indeed.

I'm not totally against unrestricted Vise, but I wouldn't want it coming off the List without a lot of testing on R&D's part (which I have no confidence they will/could adequately perform).

That was a different meta. Many people tried to keep a substantial number of cards in hand and against many decks you weren't dealing with a threat every turn like you are for turns 1 to 4 in Legacy. The undercosted threats were just much less undercosted in most cases and so they did not comprise a steady stream at the start of play.

The only decks that I see Black Vise clearly fitting in in this meta are red burn and mono-black with wastelands and sinkholes and the vises would just be win more in the games those decks were winning in my opinion.

Now if there was a realistic way to maintain a 6 or 7 card hand size then I'd see a problem, but I just don't see it right now. Maybe Clash will get hand sizes back up, but I haven't seen it yet.

[bladewing019]

Black Vise seems like it would see play in Goyf Sligh, turn one it will deal more damage than a Bolt.

[FoolofaTook]

Black Vise seems like it would see play in Goyf Sligh, turn one it will deal more damage than a Bolt.

Black Vise won't kill Goblin Lackey, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Nantuko Shade early on, Serra Avenger or a host of other undercosted threats that land turn 1 to 3.

You won't see Black Vise replacing Lightning Bolts in this meta.

[MattH]

Who the fuck still plays with Nantuko Shade and Serra Avenger?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to unbannings. The next safest tier, after the three I mentioned before, are some artifacts:

Black Vise, Illusionary Mask, Metalworker

I do think Vise could probably be unbanned to no terrible effect. They'd be good, and played, but I am doubtful that they'd be truly format-warping. Also Illusionary Mask - I was initially skeptical, but my mind's been changed. It's kind of annoying that they're so expensive, however, because they look fucking fun. Also, Metalworker seems like a card which might be safe - it's like a Lackey but at :3: , which is better in some ways and worse in others. If I were a bettting man, I'd bet that it's safe, but it's not a sure thing.

The lats tier of cards, which MIGHT be safe but also might not, are Worldgorger Dragon, Grim Monolith, Entomb, Hermit Druid, Mind Twist, Time Spiral, and possibly Imperial Seal (although Seal also suffers from the same problem Mask does, but even moreso). At this level the cards start to become very dangerous. I would not want any of these unbanned until ALL of the cards in lower tiers were unbanned AND proven to be safe - and by 'safe' I mean 'about as format-warping as Replenish turned out to be'. I also would not want more than one of these cards unbanned at once, because many of them combo extremely well with each other - Monolith and Mind Twist are very good together (turn 1 Monolith, turn 2 Twist for 4 and even more if you've got a ritual or something), and Entomb and Hermit Druid also can be sick together (and Entomb with Replenish, although that's much less scary).

Of the cards in this tier, I think Spiral and Dragon are the safest, followed by Mind Twist and Monolith. Druid and Entomb are much more dangerous, and Imperial Seal the scariest of all. I don't think I would want to allow anything stronger than that in the format, and as I said before, possibly not even all of these.

[DragoFireheart]

Who the fuck still plays with Nantuko Shade and Serra Avenger?


This is sarcasm?

[edgewalker]

Black Vise won't kill Goblin Lackey, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Nantuko Shade early on, Serra Avenger or a host of other undercosted threats that land turn 1 to 3.

You won't see Black Vise replacing Lightning Bolts in this meta.

He's clearly talking about in addition to bolt, not as a replacement for it. I'm no doctor, but first turn Black Vise looks better than "Mountain, Bolt, Go"

[Shtriga]

This is sarcasm?

it has to be :)

[Afro]

it has to be :)

No it doesn't. Avenger is ass unless you have a vial at 2 counters and Shade is horrible because if you tap out to pump then on their turn they just burn him and you lose him. 2/1 for BB is crap. I'm pretty sure the Fallen Empire clerics are better than him in the current meta.

[Media314r8]

Maybe Clash will get hand sizes back up, but I haven't seen it yet.

I fukin LOL'd so damn hard. This is definatly going in the source qoutes thread, possibly getting sig'd.

[mercenarybdu]

Hope they don't screw it up and unban a card that they thought it was fabulous to unban.

Anyway I'd like to see Mindtwist Unbanned as it sees not much major play other than just a SB card against combo and control as it has lost a lot of power since Hymn is around at less the mana to slap cards out of people's hands at random.

But then again we have to take into consideration the things that could come about from unbanning that card if somebody came up with a discovery that wasn't discovered at all.


I'd like to see Tarmogyf on that list as it is eating up a lot of design space in the format and just leave it as a Vintage card. It has already warped most of the format by making Threshold the top deck and others that could slip him in at the top of the game leaving a huge number of cards no longer playable to even forcing players to rethink their entire deck building plan.

Every 9/10 Threshold decks we do come across has that guy in and every 7/10 of another deck has that guy slipped in one way or the other thanks to all of the color fixing cards in the format.

Although it makes G playable once again, R&D went already too far on that card as every deck that runs G now has to run that card. If the Goyf goes, then there would be more space in the design pool to come up with something better as he just keeps eating up a lot of space.

[kicks_422]

He's clearly talking about in addition to bolt, not as a replacement for it. I'm no doctor, but first turn Black Vise looks better than "Mountain, Bolt, Go"

No good player does that. Black Vise doesn't look too good in Goyf Sligh because the deck wants a steady stream of damage for its cards, and Black Vise only provides that for a certain amount of time, and only against decks that Goyf Sligh needs more than just Black Vise to win against (e.g. Landstill, TES).

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Black Vise doesn't look too good in Goyf Sligh because the deck wants a steady stream of damage for its cards, and Black Vise only provides that for a certain amount of time...Goyf Sligh runs Lava Spike. On turn one a Black Vise and a Lava Spike will deal three damage. On turn two, Black Vise is likely to deal damage again, unless they dump four cards from their hand. Lava Spike does nothing.

It seems as though Black Vise is better then Lava Spike, which is run in Goyf Sligh. Therefor, Black Vise would go in Goyf Sligh.

[kicks_422]

Lava Spike deals 3 all the time. Black Vise conditionally deals 3, then maybe 2 and then 1, and whatever. Goyf Sligh runs cards which minimizes bad topdecks and maximizes damage-per-card output. Black Vise could deal 6, but it could also deal 0. Therefore, Black Vise only might go in Goyf Sligh, but as an SB option at the most.

I'm thinking if Black Vise does get unbanned, maybe in black-attrition decks and maybe even in MUD-type Legacy builds.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd play Time Spiral in TES; maindeck and sideboard. It adds mana against control, against landstill. When the game drags into Chant wars, the untapping of lands can be huge.

Considering Diminishing Returns, and to a lesser extent Slithermuse, seems to be the accepted bar for Draw 7s, it's hard to come up with an argument for Time Spiral remaining on the banned list. 6 mana should be enough of a restriction to keep the untap effect from being broken. I don't think that effect gets degenerate until 3 mana ala Frantic Research.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Lava Spike deals 3 all the time. Black Vise conditionally deals 3, then maybe 2 and then 1, and whatever. Goyf Sligh runs cards which minimizes bad topdecks and maximizes damage-per-card output. Black Vise could deal 6, but it could also deal 0. Therefore, Black Vise only might go in Goyf Sligh, but as an SB option at the most.You're right, I was only thinking of best case scenarios.

The best way to abuse it, if that can even be done, could be some Stax like deck. Some sort of Stax that doesn't run Chalice and keeps the opponent's hand full, possibly though mana denial.

[Michael Keller]

Considering Diminishing Returns, and to a lesser extent Slithermuse, seems to be the accepted bar for Draw 7s, it's hard to come up with an argument for Time Spiral remaining on the banned list. 6 mana should be enough of a restriction to keep the untap effect from being broken. I don't think that effect gets degenerate until 3 mana ala Frantic Research.

Untapping six lands after drawing seven cards is devastating. I'm sure a lot people can pretty much attest to the fact getting to six mana is not that hard with the amount of acceleration the format provides. It wouldn't matter even if you weren't playing combo: Drawing seven cards with all your mana open - putting yourself on the play with no drawback - is hideous. It won't happen. The DCI I'm certain is aware Diminishing Returns is seeing play and they're content with it because of it's drawback and thus keeping Time Spiral out of the picture.

The card Time Spiral is degenerate by itself.

[FoolofaTook]

He's clearly talking about in addition to bolt, not as a replacement for it. I'm no doctor, but first turn Black Vise looks better than "Mountain, Bolt, Go"

Well then you're talking about pulling Chain Lightning out of the deck if it's there, or some other under-costed threat that has more utility against the opponent than a one-shot artifact that does it's damage and is then done.

The Legacy meta punishes people for playing narrow cards right now, even narrow cards that are really effective at what they are trying to do.

Where Black Vise might fit is in a control concept that is trying to get Blood Moon or Back to Basics down and then kill as uncastables pile up in the opponent's hand.

Black Vise was a deadly killer when people typically packed decks with 15 cards that they couldn't get rid of if the opponent wasn't casting spells and putting targets out to cast upon. It was a deadly killer in decks that wanted to put one out and then use Stripmines and Sinkholes to kill you by turn 5 or 6. This meta has so many answers that you can cast before the problem is on the table and so many general purpose removal cards and so many ways to get multiple cards out of hand quickly that it's unlikely that Black Vise would be the killer it used to be.

[FoolofaTook]

No it doesn't. Avenger is ass unless you have a vial at 2 counters and Shade is horrible because if you tap out to pump then on their turn they just burn him and you lose him. 2/1 for BB is crap. I'm pretty sure the Fallen Empire clerics are better than him in the current meta.

I only see Shade in decks playing dark rituals these days and I can't ever recall a player tapping completely out except to kill me when they had a shade up. They always leave one black mana open to bluff the ritual unless the shade just doesn't matter at that point.

[BreathWeapon]

Untapping six lands after drawing seven cards is devastating. I'm sure a lot people can pretty much attest to the fact getting to six mana is not that hard with the amount of acceleration the format provides. It wouldn't matter even if you weren't playing combo: Drawing seven cards with all your mana open - putting yourself on the play with no drawback - is hideous. It won't happen. The DCI I'm certain is aware Diminishing Returns is seeing play and they're content with it because of it's drawback and thus keeping Time Spiral out of the picture.

The card Time Spiral is degenerate by itself.

In what? The decks that can reach 4UU are either Storm combo, which is counting on having 2+ lands in order to either off set or gain a return on the additional 2 investment, or High Tide, which is an awful deck.

I'm sure Diminishing Returns "draw back" has nothing to do with it being legal, it's about as relevant as the Millstone myth. As it stands, Time Spiral is just a more conditional Diminishing Returns until some one proves other wise.

[Afro]

I only see Shade in decks playing dark rituals these days and I can't ever recall a player tapping completely out except to kill me when they had a shade up. They always leave one black mana open to bluff the ritual unless the shade just doesn't matter at that point.

Which in turn makes it ass. It's fragile body makes it a HUGE-AH liability to even pump the damn thing. I really don't want to derail this thread with Shades suckness so I'll leave it at this: I've never been scared of a Shade across the table. Either the player with it is horrible and makes the mistake of tapping out or it doesn't matter any more. He sucks early game, sucks mid game, and doesn't matter late game unless the entire board is wiped. He sucks.

[DragoFireheart]

Which in turn makes it ass. It's fragile body makes it a HUGE-AH liability to even pump the damn thing. I really don't want to derail this thread with Shades suckness so I'll leave it at this: I've never been scared of a Shade across the table. Either the player with it is horrible and makes the mistake of tapping out or it doesn't matter any more. He sucks early game, sucks mid game, and doesn't matter late game unless the entire board is wiped. He sucks.

I'm guessing your hate for the Shade stems from the fact that he killed you too many times?

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'm guessing your hate for the Shade stems from the fact that he killed you too many times?
It probably stems from the fact that his metagame is infested with bad decks with lots of burn spells (GAS, anyone?). In a general Legacy metagame, I don't care whether my creature dies to Lava Dart or not.

I don't generally expect my two-drops to survive Lightning Bolt, either, though. No creature at :1::b: or :b::b: does. What Shade does do that its peers don't, however, is trade with and beat Tarmogoyfs. That is far more important than surviving burn spells.


Back on topic, Black Vise is an amazing card to have in any aggressive deck. Goyf Sligh would definitely play it, as would pretty much every aggro deck. Where it would be most effective, though, is probably in something like the Canadian Threshold (Thrash) lists, where it would serve as an undercosted and resilient threat that shares a ton of synergy with mana denial. Comparing the card to Lava Spike really doesn't do it justice.

I'm not sure that Vise is broken, but it would certainly have an impact on the format. Also, I'm pretty skeptical about any card that appears to be readily usable by Threshold, which is already the best deck.

In the poll, I only voted for Land Tax and Earthcraft, but I'll admit I was being cautious.

[Bovinious]

Okay guys, I'm gunna post the banned list, and say which ones I think can come off, because I was thinking about and found I want pretty much everything off...does anyone else feel the same way, feel like WOTC is denying us the opportunity to play with a bunch of powerful but either dated or not broken cards?

* Amulet of Quoz
* Ancestral Recall
* Balance
* Bazaar of Baghdad
* Black Lotus
* Black Vise UNBAN
* Bronze Tablet
* Channel
* Chaos Orb
* Contract from Below
* Darkpact
* Demonic Attorney
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor
* Dream Halls UNBAN
* Earthcraft UNBAN
* Entomb MAYBE UNBAN
* Falling Star
* Fastbond
* Flash
* Frantic Search
* Goblin Recruiter UNBAN
* Grim Monolith UNBAN
* Gush MAYBE UNBAN
* Hermit Druid UNBAN
* Illusionary Mask UNBAN
* Imperial Seal MAYBE UNBAN
* Jeweled Bird
* Land Tax UNBAN
* Library of Alexandria UNBAN
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Drain UNBAN
* Mana Vault
* Memory Jar
* Metalworker UNBAN
* Mind Twist UNBAN
* Mind's Desire
* Mishra's Workshop
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids
* Rebirth
* Shahrazad UNBAN
* Skullclamp MAYBE UNBAN
* Sol Ring
* Strip Mine
* Tempest Efreet
* Time Spiral
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Timmerian Fiends
* Tinker
* Tolarian Academy
* Vampiric Tutor MAYBE UNBAN
* Wheel of Fortune
* Windfall
* Worldgorger Dragon UNBAN
* Yawgmoth's Bargain
* Yawgmoth's Will

So yeah there it is...I think Legacy would be a much better format if I was in charge of the B&R, but theyre too chump change to put someone as wise in these matters as me in charge :(

[Tacosnape]

Someone should add "Radley" to the poll. That would almost make more sense than a lot of the things suggested in this thread thus far.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I would LOVE to see Land Tax, Mind's Desire, Vampiric Tutor, and Black Vise UNBANNED. My logic is: in today's meta are any of these cards really that broken aside from Vampiric Tutor which isn't even that broken seeing as how it costs 1 and will be countered when Sensei's Diving Top is revealed off the top of opponent's library (I know this is not an argument but I despise Threshold). Anyway, for a real argument, are the Mind's Desire storm decks really that much faster that Belcher or Spanish Inquisition? What makes Mind's Desire any more broken than Burning Wish with storm count 9? And Land Tax, a really good card, but was it ever just that amazingly broken that is turned the format upside down and needed to be banned? And I think the last statement goes for Black Vise as well.

[Jaiminho]

Unban Skullclamp. Big LOL at that.

Lots of nonsense going on.

[ForceofWill]

Oh yah lets unban goblin recruiter I mean FCG winning turn 2 wasn't a bad thing right?

[clavio]

Mind's desire?

I think if Mind's Desire ever had a chance to be played unrestricted people would call it one of the best and most broken cards ever. No lies. The card is fucking stoopid.

[Di]

I would LOVE to see Land Tax, Mind's Desire, Vampiric Tutor, and Black Vise UNBANNED. My logic is: in today's meta are any of these cards really that broken aside from Vampiric Tutor which isn't even that broken seeing as how it costs 1 and will be countered when Sensei's Diving Top is revealed off the top of opponent's library (I know this is not an argument but I despise Threshold). Anyway, for a real argument, are the Mind's Desire storm decks really that much faster that Belcher or Spanish Inquisition? What makes Mind's Desire any more broken than Burning Wish with storm count 9? And Land Tax, a really good card, but was it ever just that amazingly broken that is turned the format upside down and needed to be banned? And I think the last statement goes for Black Vise as well.


Give TES Mind's Desire. Please. Aside from power and the like, it's one of the most powerful cards on the list. It's in the league more along the likes of Yawgmoth's Will for crying out loud. When it was first printed, I was working on it with a group of people on TMD, and we developed an incredibly resilient, consistent turn 2-3 win with it. The card was stupid in type 2 and Extended, but now think about giving the card Dark Ritual and LED. Unbanned Mind's Desire in this format would be more powerful than any Storm combo deck in Vintage.

[Getsickanddie]

I'd like to see a number of cards that don't really have a home in any format unbanned. I don't have really well thought out points regarding their impact on the format, or wizards policy as prospective changes to the B&R list don't garner much of my attention. As an example a card like Illusionary Mask is only legal in Vintage currently, and isn't particularly viable in that format. Legacy to me has always been the format where you can play with cool old cards that just don't cut the mustard in vintage, or are no longer legal in any other format. I don't think a card like Mask would be dominating, but I imagine it would at least be playable in Legacy.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Give TES Mind's Desire. Please. Aside from power and the like, it's one of the most powerful cards on the list. It's in the league more along the likes of Yawgmoth's Will for crying out loud. When it was first printed, I was working on it with a group of people on TMD, and we developed an incredibly resilient, consistent turn 2-3 win with it. The card was stupid in type 2 and Extended, but now think about giving the card Dark Ritual and LED. Unbanned Mind's Desire in this format would be more powerful than any Storm combo deck in Vintage.

But would it really be able to fight through all the Trinispheres, Sphere of Resistence, Chalice of the Void, Glowrider, Force of Will, Stifle, and Counterbalance? I am a combo player so this is naturally the kind of card I flock towards, but isn't the meta balanced enough to unban Mind's Desire? Would it really be able to fight through all the typical combo hate, or like the rest of the storm combos would it struggle in dealing with them? I am not trying to be difficult or contradicting but I am just wondering if the card really is that broken or if it is hindered by Counterbalance, Force, and Stifle like most other cards in storm decks.

[Lukas Preuss]

5) ATBLFTax (or Attempt to Break Land Fuckin´Tax)

4 Land Tax (OBV)
4 Aether Vial

some Zuran Orbs
some Sylvan Libraries (not a Necropotence, but...)

2 Exploration (fuck yeah!)

4 StP

3 LftFL
3 Megiddo (or Rav. of War)

16 Wild Mongrel, Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Jötun Grunt

4 fetches
Savannah
Basics, Ports, Wastes, moxen, anything, fuck yeah!


I don't know what you're up to with that list of yours, but it's not really showing the brokeness of Land Tax, is it?

Let's see... Exploration and Land Tax don't have much syngergy with each other... your manabase that is full of Fetchlands, Savannahs, Ports, Wastes, doesn't either. You run shit like Zuran Orb to get the Land Tax combo rolling... a two card combo that get's you some of your basic lands is supposed to be broken?

I have seen better deck than that... ;)




On a side note: If you people are so afraid of LAND TAX being broken... do you realize that unbanning Black Vise would keep Land Tax decks from completely dominating the format? ;)

[Bongo]

Once again:

the question I asked was which card is SAFE to unban.

I know there are quite a few cards people want to be unbanned, but are not completely SAFE.

My picks for SAFE cards are Earthcraft and Land Tax, as I tried building viable decks around them but couldn't come up with anything degenerate.

[Proz0r]

Cards get unbanned when they ARE NOT broken.
Unban will NEVER bring back broken card.


Obviously you are wrong (see Gush in Vintage).

Cards from the poll list that should not be unbanned are:

- Grim Monolith, because it would risk more turn 1 Trinispheres.
- Black Vise because it would hurt control strategies alot.
- Goblin Recruiter because it would give Goblins the Food Chain combo.

[Aleksandr]

Deleted upon request. - Bardo

[DragoFireheart]

Okay guys, I'm gunna post the banned list, and say which ones I think can come off, because I was thinking about and found I want pretty much everything off...does anyone else feel the same way, feel like WOTC is denying us the opportunity to play with a bunch of powerful but either dated or not broken cards?

* Amulet of Quoz
* Ancestral Recall
* Balance
* Bazaar of Baghdad
* Black Lotus
* Black Vise UNBAN
* Bronze Tablet
* Channel
* Chaos Orb
* Contract from Below
* Darkpact
* Demonic Attorney
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor
* Dream Halls UNBAN
* Earthcraft UNBAN
* Entomb MAYBE UNBAN
* Falling Star
* Fastbond
* Flash
* Frantic Search
* Goblin Recruiter UNBAN
* Grim Monolith UNBAN
* Gush MAYBE UNBAN
* Hermit Druid UNBAN
* Illusionary Mask UNBAN
* Imperial Seal MAYBE UNBAN
* Jeweled Bird
* Land Tax UNBAN
* Library of Alexandria UNBAN
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Drain UNBAN
* Mana Vault
* Memory Jar
* Metalworker UNBAN
* Mind Twist UNBAN
* Mind's Desire
* Mishra's Workshop
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids
* Rebirth
* Shahrazad UNBAN
* Skullclamp MAYBE UNBAN
* Sol Ring
* Strip Mine
* Tempest Efreet
* Time Spiral
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Timmerian Fiends
* Tinker
* Tolarian Academy
* Vampiric Tutor MAYBE UNBAN
* Wheel of Fortune
* Windfall
* Worldgorger Dragon UNBAN
* Yawgmoth's Bargain
* Yawgmoth's Will

So yeah there it is...I think Legacy would be a much better format if I was in charge of the B&R, but theyre too chump change to put someone as wise in these matters as me in charge :(

Worst idea ever. Wanting to unban Skullclamp eh? Cmon, share some of that weed!

[Illissius]

Personally, it was Library of Alexandria which made me nearly spit my brain out my nose. After that experience, Mana Drain and Skullclamp came only as minor shocks.

[C.P.]

Someone should add "Radley" to the poll. That would almost make more sense than a lot of the things suggested in this thread thus far.

Thread Winner.


Ok, What with Mind's Desire? It's already very good in extended, and they have like, less than half of enablers that we have. We have More tutors and More mana, with friggin' LED. Just because you are a combo player should not make you biased in one archetype. Seriously, how could someone who saw the card in action would believe that Mind's desire is fair enough to be unbanned?



I think Legacy would be a much better format if I was in charge of the B&R, but theyre too chump change to put someone as wise in these matters as me in charge :(

It's a good thing that you're not in charge, because I'd be quitting the format where Library and Drain is legal as a 4 of. Sigh.

[Bovinious]

I said maybe for Skullclamp, it probably should stay banned but I dont really see how a Skullclamp combo deck would be any faster or more resilient than the current combo decks today, and itd give aggro a tool to improve, was just a thought.

I dont know why you guys are just blindly insisting that Drain and Library are banworthy. Library is just weak, Id be happy to have an opponent just sitting there for 2-3 turns so they can draw an extra card which they wont likely even play, and Drain is just a Counterspell with a small boon since every costs so little in Legacy. I mean I guess its valid to think they should stay banned if you support the policy of banning expensive cards, but that policy is pretty bull shit to begin with.

[arsenalpow]

If you look at the list you can immediately eliminate any cards concerning ante or manual dexterity, then eliminate all the power cards and the other cards considered pseudo power (Balance, Library, etc) That leaves you with this list

* Black Vise - a turn 1 vise backed up with wastelands or lockpieces like chalice, trinisphere, thorns, and spheres of resistance. Seems like a stupid format, stays banned

* Demonic Consultation - Spoils of the vault is the balanced version of this card, stays banned

* Dream Halls - Hard to power out without tolarian, big casting cost...unban it

* Earthcraft - A little slow nowadays, unban

* Entomb - Can't have entomb and WGD, either or

* Frantic Search - too busted for solidarity i think...

* Hermit Druid - might actually be slow compared to ichorid nowadays, plus lots of GY hate in the format

* Illusionary Mask - unban, mediocre card

* Land Tax - im on the fence for this one....mox diamonds + tax is not a fun time for the other player....maybe it comes off to shake up the format

* Mind Twist - we already have hymn which is 2 cards for 2 mana...and lots of pinpoint removal...this can also be dealt with by permission...i say unban it

* Oath of Druids - i think it has to stay banned, especially since the format is very creature based. although it would be a fun foil to all the tarmogoyf decks running around....maybe it would balance the force

* Time Spiral - its alot to cast, and again no tolarian....might be safe to unban

* Wheel of Fortune - Draw7s are busted, no thanks

* Windfall - see wheel....(for all intents and purposes it usually a draw7)

* Worldgorger Dragon - either this or entomb, not together

[arsenalpow]

and Drain is just a Counterspell with a small boon since every costs so little in Legacy

Everything costs so little because drain is not in the format, with drains you can use a streamlined manabase and drain mana to power out scary threats. The tempo it generates is too strong.

[Arsenal]

If Land Tax was unbanned, I suspect we'd see an influx of Parfait-esque decks popping up. Is that really a bad/format-warping thing? I don't think so.

[FoolofaTook]

If Land Tax was unbanned, I suspect we'd see an influx of Parfait-esque decks popping up. Is that really a bad/format-warping thing? I don't think so.

I'm not going to get into an argument about what Land Tax would or wouldn't do to the format. Any card that lets you go get three cards on turn two is going to be prone to abuse, particularly in a meta where there are so many different ways to exchange cards for something else, the assumption being that you're either trading the mana you need early on or other spells to get the advantage. With Land Tax those trade-offs become basically non-existent.

In a balanced game is the Land Tax ability over-powered? No. But then again the Land Tax deck was built to exploit the advantages and to not be overly inconvenienced by the negatives that it poses. That gives the Land Tax deck an enormous advantage in terms of controlling the flow of play. The advantage is even stronger than a Leylines of the Void deck enjoys because it is largely dependent on the Land Tax deck and then the weaknesses of the opposing deck get factored in.

WoTC is not talking about boring play when they talk about the gameplay changes that Land Tax imposes, they are talking about grinding play from the first turn on of a type that is not prevalent even in the Legacy meta.

[arsenalpow]

It's not bad but I can see how it would be format warping. By playing with lands you automatically give an advantage to the tax player. Lands and creatures are a staple of legacy.

This is why oath might be damaging. All creature decks have the potential of getting crushed by oath for just playing its creatures. Seems warping.

Its not an issue in vintage where most decks are creature light and there are numerous other mana sources aside from land. This allows for tax and oath to be balanced in the format. You would have to play combo in order to not be affected by oath or tax (oath can still give you creatures via orchard tho :frown: )

[Bovinious]

Can we PLEASE stop pretending land tax is even playable? Seriously, the card does nothing, its white (the worst color), just all around awful. It being banned shows WOTC's ignorance and negligence for our format, and its sad. Maybe they are this way because some people in our format for some reason think card isnt trash, so they leave it banned...whatever...The point is, Land Tax is really the only card that can 100% be taken off because it never reared its head in any sort of degenerate deck, and isnt even playable.

[DragoFireheart]

Can we PLEASE stop pretending land tax is even playable? Seriously, the card does nothing, its white (the worst color), just all around awful. It being banned shows WOTC's ignorance and negligence for our format, and its sad. Maybe they are this way because some people in our format for some reason think card isnt trash, so they leave it banned...whatever...The point is, Land Tax is really the only card that can 100% be taken off because it never reared its head in any sort of degenerate deck, and isnt even playable.

Worst comes to worst, WotC could simply ban it again.

[freakish777]

These threads are always terrible. Is there a way to create a thread that isn't in the Adept Forum that only Adepts can post in so everyone can read? I really get sick of a lot of people's takes, but would love to hear some real discussion by just the adepts without having to scroll through 9 pages of BS for 10 posts.

[C.P.]

These threads are always terrible. Is there a way to create a thread that isn't in the Adept Forum that only Adepts can post in so everyone can read? I really get sick of a lot of people's takes, but would love to hear some real discussion by just the adepts without having to scroll through 9 pages of BS for 10 posts.

Like This? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6537)

[arsenalpow]

Obviously an opinion is irrelevant unless it is backed by adept status...

[Gambit]

Land Tax could possibly be hot in white stax; being able to trigger it after either dropping a smokestack, 'geddon, or even after a city of traitors hits the yard. Clearing out land and allowing you to keep your threats up....hmmm

[Kadaj]

Library of Alexandria? Mana Drain? Pass some of those drugs over here please.

On a less inflammatory note, I'd love to see Grim Monolith unbanned for almost entire selfish reasons. My favorite deck ever is made infinitely more viable by Monolith being legal, so I'd much rather have it legal than not. I also don't particularly think Monolith would be too strong anyway, but meh.

[J.V.]

All of these could be very safely unbanned.
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Worldgorger Dragon

[Rood]

If Dragon gets unbanned I think i found myself a new deck ;D

[Dilettante]

Well, I got somehow stuck on Land Tax. I do admit it. (I remember the times of Land Tax been allowed as four-of.)

*cough* Land Tax/Balance *cough*

[Aleksandr]

Deleted upon request. - Bardo

[freakish777]

Like This? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6537)

So how bout it adepts? Post more in that thread?


@arsenalplow:

When I have to read crap like

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Entomb
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Imperial Seal
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Skullclamp
Vampiric Tutor
Worldgorger Dragon should all be unbanned, then no, I'm not going give your opinion the time of day as it's clear you don't understand Magic.

There's plenty of meaningful discussion to be had, but the fact of the matter is that if you let any random forumer post their opinion, the entire thread is derailed in a heartbeat, and essentially unreadable. Personally, if I don't get to take part in the discussion (since I'm not an adept) but only get to read it, I'd be fine with that as I don't have to wade through the absolute crap.

[Bardo]

So how bout it adepts? Post more in this thread?

While I can't speak for everyone, I'm guessing that if you've been around long enough to be an Adept+, you've long lost the enthusiasm to discuss B/R changes with much gusto. B/R discussions are little more than a "repeatedly bang your head into a wall" sort of exercise and they're predicatably boring.

Personally, I don't really care about changes to the B/R list. It's just not interesting to me. Not being able to play with a couple of potentially abusable toys doesn't really concern me (there are thousands upon thousands of cards out there, afterall), so it largely comes down to an aesthetic judgment; e.g. the Banned List should be as short as possible. Whatever.

Like most, I think Land Tax should come off, but I'd leave the rest of it alone.

Edit - While I don't think it's a good idea, I'd absolutely love to play with Oath and Gush in this format, though I think it would be a mistake to unban them.

[DragoFireheart]

So how bout it adepts? Post more in that thread?


@arsenalplow:

When I have to read crap like

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Entomb
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Imperial Seal
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Skullclamp
Vampiric Tutor
Worldgorger Dragon should all be unbanned, then no, I'm not going give your opinion the time of day as it's clear you don't understand Magic.

There's plenty of meaningful discussion to be had, but the fact of the matter is that if you let any random forumer post their opinion, the entire thread is derailed in a heartbeat, and essentially unreadable. Personally, if I don't get to take part in the discussion (since I'm not an adept) but only get to read it, I'd be fine with that as I don't have to wade through the absolute crap.

This is an elitist post if I have ever heard one. If someone makes a suggestion and backs that opinion up with a solid argument, who's to say that person is somehow a "random forumer"? Do you feel special because the owners of this site gave you a special ranking? Do you really think this attitude you have for non-adepts is really setting an example for how an adept should act towards others? From the sound of your post, anyone that posts something that doesn't agree with you is "lesser" in some way.

Frankly, I find your attitude towards non-adepts to be quite rude. I'd probably take away this title of yours if I owned the site based on the poor attitude to seem to have towards others.

[Sims]

This is an elitist post if I have ever heard one. If someone makes a suggestion and backs that opinion up with a solid argument, who's to say that person is somehow a "random forumer"? Do you feel special because the owners of this site gave you a special ranking? Do you really think this attitude you have for non-adepts is really setting an example for how an adept should act towards others? From the sound of your post, anyone that posts something that doesn't agree with you is "lesser" in some way.

Frankly, I find your attitude towards non-adepts to be quite rude. I'd probably take away this title of yours if I owned the site based on the poor attitude to seem to have towards others.


For the record- Freakish isn't an adept.

[Eldariel]

While I can't speak for everyone, I'm guessing that if you've been around long enough to be an Adept+, you've long lost the enthusiasm to discuss B/R changes with much gusto. B/R discussions are little more than a "repeatedly bang your head into a wall" sort of exercise and they're predicatably boring.

I'd wish to echo this: If you've had one B&R discussion, you've had them all. I'm still of the same opinion as I was in that linked thread so if someone cares of what I think, they can read my opinions there.

[Tacosnape]

While I can't speak for everyone, I'm guessing that if you've been around long enough to be an Adept+, you've long lost the enthusiasm to discuss B/R changes with much gusto. B/R discussions are little more than a "repeatedly bang your head into a wall" sort of exercise and they're predicatably boring.

QFFT.

B&R Discussions are much like political forums. All they do is give a high percentage of the population a chance to prove that any system that makes everyone's opinion count is a bad one. I have my own thoughts about the B&R list, but I keep my mouth shut about them and choose to just focus on playing the game as it is.

[Nightmare]

And much like politics, it allows pseudo-intellectuals the ability to be "above" the discussion.

Look, I just wanna play Dragon again. Is that really too much to ask?

[Zach Tartell]

I just realized that I could have a turn three or four win with Enchantress if the unbanned Earthcraft.

So... let's unban Earthcraft.

[Michael Keller]

I just realized that I could have a turn three or four win with Enchantress if the unbanned Earthcraft.

So... let's unban Earthcraft.

I'd much rather have Falling Star.

[Bardo]

And much like politics, it allows pseudo-intellectuals the ability to be "above" the discussion.

Look, I just wanna play Dragon again. Is that really too much to ask?

Meh. Even stupid people can realize when there's no point in arguing over something they can't control.

About Dragon, it's a very compact combo, but not nearly as threatening in a format w/o Bazaar.


I'd much rather have Falling Star.

F to the Y! I love that card.

[Nightmare]

Meh. Even stupid people can realize when there's no point in arguing over something they can't control.
From the StarCity boards in response to Menendian's article on B&R:

Nice article.

Everyone please post your comments on Vintage B&R list in this forum. I will be reading it for the next few days.

I will be going to GP Vancouver as well. See you there.

Mike TurianI'm under the assumption that if the guy who can control the B&R list is reading there, then he's reading both my articles and this site's discussions, too. I could be wrong, but it's not really hurting anything to have a purely hypothetical discussion.


About Dragon, it's a very compact combo, but not nearly as threatening in a format w/o Bazaar.That's why I want it back! It goes from boo-hoo unfair to woo-hoo fun if you let it in without Bazaar.

[mujadaddy]

Banning Dexterity cards AND Ante cards was just wrong. What's wrong with dexterity? Or ante, for that matter... :cool:

[Arsenal]

I suppose that having ante cards and dexterity cards banned is reasonable; ante promotes gambling and dexterity can potentially discriminate against handicapped people.

[freakish777]

Plus, Bryant would die of a heart attack induced by orgasm if Contract from Below were unbanned.

[Michael Keller]

I suppose that having ante cards and dexterity cards banned is reasonable; ante promotes gambling and dexterity can potentially discriminate against handicapped people.

For all intents and purposes, there should be no discrimination to begin with as it pertains to Magic both physically and mentally. They should be deemed inseperable, because what if someone who has less than normal motor skills can't think straight? Or what about people with poor eye sight? Now they should ban Ice Cauldron...

Bring those cards back. They put the Magic back in Magic - that's what I say...

[mujadaddy]

ante promotes gamblingNo, in many jurisdictions ante IS gambling. Ante as designed into the game, however, was the antidote to "what vintage has become" -- You wanna play with a $3,000 deck? Ante up, bitch...

Plus, Bryant would die of a heart attack induced by orgasm if Contract from Below were unbanned....and this is bad how, exactly? :laugh:

Re: "Handicapped people" -- who's shuffling their decks for them?

[Zach Tartell]

Re: "Handicapped people" -- who's shuffling their decks for them?

I'm pretty sure that you can ask a judge to help you shuffle. Like, if you're playing a battle of wits deck or something.

[Bardo]

Man, I could 100% get behind unbanning Falling Star. I freaking love that card. I realize it might make it into someone's sideboard as an anti-aggro card, but Pyroclasm for 2/3 the cost will be better 19/20 times. I'm not sure how the rules would handle Fork-ing the Star, but who gives a rat's tit.

Unban Falling Star!

Edit - See, B/R discussion bring out the idiot in everyone. :)


I'm pretty sure that you can ask a judge to help you shuffle. Like, if you're playing a battle of wits deck or something.


The Floor Rules don't really speak to that. By Rehab Act & the ADA, I'm sure you can request "reasonable accomodations" if your disability prevented you from shuffling your and/or your opponent's deck, though there is that test of "reasonableness."

[mujadaddy]

Man, I could 100% get behind unbanning Falling Star. I freaking love that card. I realize it might make it into someone's sideboard as an anti-aggro card, but Pyroclasm for 2/3 the cost will be better 19/20 times. I'm not sure how the rules would handle Fork-ing the Star, but who gives a rat's tit.

Unban Falling Star!

Edit - See, B/R discussion bring out the idiot in everyone. :)This. Good points, especially the "dexterity cards are over-mana'ed any way -- unban 'em!" bit...

The Floor Rules don't really speak to that. By Rehab Act & the ADA, I'm sure you can request "reasonable accomodations" if your disability prevented you from shuffling your and/or your opponent's deck, though there is that test of "reasonableness."Reasonable accommodation in MY book means you can bring a designated Star-Tosser :tongue:

[FoolofaTook]

Chaos Orb made people spread their cards out so much that it was nearly impossible to keep track of what was in play. Lands would be staggered at least 4 inches apart, same with creatures. Stacking of cards was unheard of in that meta, and while some would argue that this was a good thing it put a heavy premium on table space.

Then you'd have the card way off on the edge of nowhere that didn't make it back into the deck before game 2, leading to forfeits now and then, which also secrewed things up.

But of course the most annoying thing about Chaos Orb was the guys who really learned how to flip it and could make it come in on an angle and skip, striking several cards before it eventually landed. This lead to near fist fights as judges tried to figure out who was telling the truth about what cards were actually touched and destroyed.

I loved Chaos Orb but I was really glad when they banned it.

[Zach Tartell]

Man, I could 100% get behind unbanning Falling Star. I freaking love that card. I realize it might make it into someone's sideboard as an anti-aggro card, but Pyroclasm for 2/3 the cost will be better 19/20 times. I'm not sure how the rules would handle Fork-ing the Star, but who gives a rat's tit.


Is there any other way to take out a Gaddok Teeg with a Glorious Anthem on the board with one card? I think not! (other than like deathmark, chain lightning, and probably about a hundred others that you could wish for)

[C.P.]

I'm pretty sure that you can ask a judge to help you shuffle. Like, if you're playing a battle of wits deck or something.

Or you can just use Deck Shuffling Device. It actually exists.

God, I guess this is the fate of any B&R Discussion, but People promoting Ante and Dexterity cards makes me sick. They should just go play a real sports.

[mujadaddy]

But of course the most annoying thing about Chaos Orb was the guys who really learned how to flip it and could make it come in on an angle and skip, striking several cards before it eventually landed. This lead to near fist fights as judges tried to figure out who was telling the truth about what cards were actually touched and destroyed.Doesn't errata say 'only the cards it comes to rest on'? ""Cards it lands on" refers to cards it touches once it stops moving. [Snark 1993/11/01]""


People promoting Ante and Dexterity cards makes me sick. They should just go play a real sports.Hey, pwning n00bz is pwning n00bz :laugh:

[Dilettante]

Or you can just use Deck Shuffling Device. It actually exists.

God, I guess this is the fate of any B&R Discussion, but People promoting Ante and Dexterity cards makes me sick. They should just go play a real sports.


Unfortunately, Magic was put on ESPN 2 for a while...

[C.P.]

God, I guess this is the fate of any B&R Discussion, but People promoting Ante and Dexterity cards makes me sick. They should just go play a real sports that involves physical exercising.

Happy? :wink:

[Derklord]

They should just go play a real sports that involves physical exercising.
Ever shuffled a 500 card deck? That IS physical exercising :tongue:

[Arsenal]

Off topic, but are deck shuffling machines legal in tourney play? If so, does anyone know of a good machine that will shuffle Magic cards (with the sleeves on)?

[Deger]

I heard that one of the reasons for the banning of cards like chaos orb and falling star was there was no way to translate the flip to work for a "Video Game" version of the game.. (pre-magic online they were developing a version for Playstation I think and even made it into a game with it's own expansion) I know it sounds gay but this is WOTC we are talking about..

I loved the orb.. but there were a lot of problems with it like making sure it was exactly one foot above the table, It flipped a full 360, and some people even tore them up and sprinkled the pieces about then the well now it is torn up so therefore it is marked to it is not legal to play argument would ensue..

it is a cool card but really not for tourneys... But I do believe everyone should own/play with one at least once..

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The problem is of course that it'd usher in an era of ruling nightmares that would make Humility look like a shining childhood memory filled with butterscotch waterfalls and talking woodland creatures.

[mujadaddy]

The problem is of course that it'd usher in an era of ruling nightmares that would make Humility look like a shining childhood memory filled with butterscotch waterfalls and talking woodland creatures.

No it wouldn't. The errata are clear, and have been for 13 years since Dexterity cards were banned.

What would be REALLY COOL is if Ante cards were ONLY legal in tournament settings, and came out of your deck+sideboard for the duration of that tourney.

[Bardo]

Stuff

Let's be really clear here: no one is mentioning Chaos Orb -- which is as innovative as it is absolutely crippling, being a 1-sided Balance and all. Where talking FALLING STAR which no one would play, other than for the sheer awesomeness of it.

[Bovinious]

No it wouldn't. The errata are clear, and have been for 13 years since Dexterity cards were banned.

What would be REALLY COOL is if Ante cards were ONLY legal in tournament settings, and came out of your deck+sideboard for the duration of that tourney.

So people could play with like 24 card decks? No thanks...

[Dilettante]

I'm only for unbanning one card: Censorship so that I can name Tarmogoyf.

[mujadaddy]

So people could play with like 24 card decks? No thanks...

What are you talking about? How many 15 round tourneys are there (just sideboard)?

[Shtriga]

and some people even tore them up and sprinkled the pieces about then the well now it is torn up so therefore it is marked to it is not legal to play argument would ensue..


wasn't that the unglued version? I remember tearing them up in 1000 pieces and throwing them at my opponents lol

[Bovinious]

What are you talking about? How many 15 round tourneys are there (just sideboard)?

I thought you meant make all the Ante cards legal but make it so people had to remove them from their deck before each game or something...what did you mean?


wasn't that the unglued version? I remember tearing them up in 1000 pieces and throwing them at my opponents lol

The Unglued card Chaos Confetti was inspired by an urban legend in which some guy tore up a Chaos Orb in order to destroy all of his opponents permanents, so thats what thats all about.

[FoolofaTook]

I thought you meant make all the Ante cards legal but make it so people had to remove them from their deck before each game or something...what did you mean?



The Unglued card Chaos Confetti was inspired by an urban legend in which some guy tore up a Chaos Orb in order to destroy all of his opponents permanents, so thats what thats all about.

No urban legend I saw people do that a couple of times in 1993 when the card was still in print.

[Wallace]

No urban legend I saw people do that a couple of times in 1993 when the card was still in print.

I also no know this to be true and have an I witness to the deed. It happened at Twilight Games in Syracuse back in 94'...

[FoolofaTook]

I also no know this to be true and have an I witness to the deed. It happened at Twilight Games in Syracuse back in 94'...

I honestly don't remember how the store owners ruled when these happened. Either way somebody was going to be sputtering, either the guy who ripped up his card or the guy who lost half his permanents to it.

[edgewalker]

Ahhh the time before deck checks, that must have been fun.

[Bovinious]

So what did people have like stacks of spare Chaos Orbs to replace em, or did they just play with illegal decks for the rest of the tourney?

[Wallace]

So what did people have like stacks of spare Chaos Orbs to replace em, or did they just play with illegal decks for the rest of the tourney?


You would keep the ripped up one in a bage/deck box and pull that out when needed or you would just add a spare one and put it in your graveyard after the effect was done resolving. You have to remember that Orb was only an $7-$10 card back then...

[mujadaddy]

I thought you meant make all the Ante cards legal but make it so people had to remove them from their deck before each game or something...what did you mean?

That you would lose your ante'ed cards for the duration of the tournament.

[eternaldarkness]

Unbanning dexterity cards like chaos orb would allow outside factors (such as available table space) to affect tournament results. Unless the DCI issues all tables to be used in all tournaments to be of equal size, chaos orb users would have an unfair advantage when playing on small tables.

[mujadaddy]

Unbanning dexterity cards like chaos orb would allow outside factors (such as available table space) to affect tournament results. Unless the DCI issues all tables to be used in all tournaments to be of equal size, chaos orb users would have an unfair advantage when playing on small tables.

If I were in charge of bringing back Dexterity cards I would institute these rules:
1.The board state remains unchanged (ie, tapped & untapped all remain the same through the following step).
2. All cards in play are placed next to each other, all oriented the same, to form a square or the most uniform rectangle possible.
3. After the Dexterity card has its 'flight', each player is free to arrange their cards in any legal fashion.

Ok, ok. You may say that I'm a dreamer...

[Nightmare]

2. All cards in play are placed next to each other, all oriented the same, to form a square or the most uniform rectangle possible.
Who decides the order and arrangement?

It's better they're left on the list.

[Dilettante]

Who decides the order and arrangement?

It's better they're left on the list.

Errata Chaos Orb to use representative POGs for the permanents.

[Nightmare]

Wait, I'm a mod. This thread has gotten stupid.

For fuck's sake, Ante and Dexterity cards? Come the fuck on.