Black Tutors (What are you willing to pay?)

[Versus]

I dunno if this has been discussed at any length or if it's just plain stupid. I appologize in advance for either.

After coming back to Magic the first two things that caught my attention happened to concern Tutors. The first being that Vamp was banned in the format I was most interested in. The second was after playing the MTGO theme deck demo and seeing the wretched Diabolic.

I know you all know what they all do, but I'll recap anyway:

Firstly the brokeness...

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/VI/en-us/Card3629.jpg

1cc, 2 life, Splashable, Instant. Crazy good.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/1E/en-us/Card60.jpg

2cc, splashable, right to hand, Sorcery. Slower, but still great.

Legacy legal...

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PO/en-us/Card4215.jpg

3cc, lose 2 life, Top of your library, splashable, Sorcery.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/P3/en-us/Card20359.jpg

3cc, lose 3 life, less splashable, right to hand, Sorcery.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/DIS/en-us/Card107308.jpg

2cc, splashable. I know this is Legacy playable, but deck specific, yes?

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PR/en-us/Card24614.jpg

Total peice of shit. Nuff said.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/OD/en-us/Card29954.jpg

Too expensive. 4cc, high black commitment, Sorcery.

It seems like Grim and Cruel are the only Tutors considered playable. I'm wondering though, are they fair and balanced as they can possibly be or are they cautious atempts on WoTC's part not to duplicate their two Vintage counterparts? Would they be more playable if they were less expensive money wise or is 3 mana just too much to invest in this kind of effect in this format?

My question would be, What would be the perfect comination of mana, life, speed, to pay in order to get the perfect balance between broken and downright aweful? 4 Life, 2cc (BB), more for instant speed, what?

[Bovinious]

Grim Tutor is pretty much the perfect balance, they need to reprint it so it doesnt cost 150$ each so people can actually play it.

EDIT: You forgot Imperial Seal on your list of Tutors, Vamp. Tutor at Sorcery speed form p3k.

[Cavius The Great]

I'm building a deck that runs 4 Grims. I'm also convinced that even if they unbanned Vampiric Tutor, I would still play Grim Tutor since it puts the card 'into your hand'. That little abililty alone makes it worth running over Vamp IMO, especially in the type of deck that I'm running it in.

[Media314r8]

Sweeney's Advice :B:

Sorcery

Search your library for a card and put it into your hand, at the beginning of the next turn, you lose the game.

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

[Bovinious]

Sweeney's Advice :B:

Sorcery

Search your library for a card and put it into your hand, at the beginning of the next turn, you lose the game.

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

That card is BAH-roken, next turn wont ever happen in Vintage and most of the time wouldnt in Legacy if combo got a tutor like that. We can hope though :wink:

[FoolofaTook]

Demonic Tutor wasn't broken in type I so I was surprised when they restricted it. It'd be marginally broken in Legacy because the speed of the format is slower. It's probably 5-10% more broken than Brainstorm as an example.

Vampiric Tutor is marginally broken in Legacy. Yes, there are things you can fish up early in a combo deck that are just gross, but isn't the point of Legacy competition to be ready to defend from turn 1 on? Again, it's only slightly more broken than Brainstorm.

Other than Infernal Tutor I wouldn't play any of the other tutors listed, and Infernal only goes in some decks.

I played in a meta with an unrestricted Demonic Tutor and I never feared it and it rarely beat me. Usually it was win more in games I had already lost or an attempt to stabilize (usually a turn slow) in games I had already won.

[Arsenal]

I'd play Grim Tutor if they weren't $150 a piece. I'd pay up to $40 for each one if they were reprinted.

[Nightmare]

Demonic Tutor wasn't broken in type I so I was surprised when they restricted it. It'd be marginally broken in Legacy because the speed of the format is slower. It's probably 5-10% more broken than Brainstorm as an example.
...
I played in a meta with an unrestricted Demonic Tutor and I never feared it and it rarely beat me. Usually it was win more in games I had already lost or an attempt to stabilize (usually a turn slow) in games I had already won.
You didn't play in a format with Unrestricted Demonic while Yawgmoth's Will was present. Totally different monster entirely. Yeah, in 1994 Demonic wasn't broken. There wasn't much to get. It gives you 5 copies of every restricted card in your deck, and that ain't good for anyone.

[emidln]

Demonic Tutor wasn't broken in type I so I was surprised when they restricted it. It'd be marginally broken in Legacy because the speed of the format is slower. It's probably 5-10% more broken than Brainstorm as an example.

I pray we never see the day of 4x Demonic Tutor in Vintage. Burning Wish was restricted entirely on its ability to find Yawgmoth's Will in your sideboard. Demonic Tutor actually allows you to play with Will in your maindeck so you can tutor for it and draw into it.


Vampiric Tutor is marginally broken in Legacy. Yes, there are things you can fish up early in a combo deck that are just gross, but isn't the point of Legacy competition to be ready to defend from turn 1 on? Again, it's only slightly more broken than Brainstorm.

Vamp isn't broken because it allows you to combo out early. Vamp is broken because it gives TES, Fetchland Tendrils, and Breakfast answers to early disruption as well as early wins. This card is a Mystical Tutor laced with crack allowing it to find Serenity, Lion's Eye Diamond, and basic lands.

Grim Tutor is perfectly playable in combo right now. It's very strong in a metagame filled with Counterbalance.

[J.V.]

You didn't play in a format with Unrestricted Demonic while Yawgmoth's Will was present. Totally different monster entirely. Yeah, in 1994 Demonic wasn't broken. There wasn't much to get. It gives you 5 copies of every restricted card in your deck, and that ain't good for anyone.

Yeah, Nightmare basically summed it up, but have you ever played Yawgmoth's Win? Its excepted text is: 2B Sorcery, I win the game. 4 Demonic would be like playing 4 Yawg Wills...:cry:

[Media314r8]

My bad, the dudes name is Wellington Wimpy. Image added for lulz factor. Tageting added for the LULZ, misdirect your tutor, I'll search for FOW, you prob dont win this one.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f28/Media314r8/WimpysAdvice.jpg

[Eldariel]

Imperial Seal is right about right for Legacy powercurve. Lim-Dul's Vault is likewise a solid tutor and something of the sort I could totally see in black (BB, ~2-3 life, instant, on top). I think, Grim Tutor is about at the right spot on powercurve.

[Versus]

So Grim is perfectly balanced? I figured being cost prohibitive was the main issue, but I didn't think that would stop people from playing them. People may not play FS because Drakes are money and somewhat hard to come by, but those that do play FS wouldn't bother without them.

I guess it's a different scenario, but you see what I'm getting at? In otherwords does anyone here play Grim Tutors in the decks on MWS that simply can't when they play the exact deck elsewhere? Do they fuction better with them or can you just live without?

[FoolofaTook]

You didn't play in a format with Unrestricted Demonic while Yawgmoth's Will was present. Totally different monster entirely. Yeah, in 1994 Demonic wasn't broken. There wasn't much to get. It gives you 5 copies of every restricted card in your deck, and that ain't good for anyone.

I know this is heresy, but I really think that it's the restriction of cards that leads to their insane broken-ness.

I played in a meta that not only had unrestricted Demonic Tutor but also had unrestricted Channel and unrestricted Black Lotus and unrestricted moxen and unrestricted Ancestral Recall and unrestricted Timewalk and unrestricted Timetwister, etc.

Did I lose to some gross decks on turn 1? Sure. Did these decks run all of these power cards? Well do the math.

Generally speaking I beat these decks with a turn 1 Juggernaut or Sinkhole or Energy Flux unless they found their combo by turn 5 and often they didn't. Sometimes I'd drop my hand and twist them for theirs on turn 1. The average game went 7 or 8 turns, which is effectively where the majority of Legacy games have gone over by.

If Force of Will had been in the meta in 1994 I think we'd never have seen card restrictions at all. It was the people who could not handle losing 20% of their games on turn 1 that ultimately forced the changeover to a restricted meta in which control was now going to be dominant.

Just adding in: Demonic Tutor on turn 1 or 2 is like saying: here have an extra turn to play stuff while I go get my win condition, which you may have a counter to. I can't tell you the number of times I watched a Fastbond recursion deck go get their win card on turn 2 and say go only to watch me put up Nethervoid on turn 3 and lock them out of ever being able to win the game.

[emidln]

So Grim is perfectly balanced? I figured being cost prohibitive was the main issue, but I didn't think that would stop people from playing them. People may not play FS because Drakes are money and somewhat hard to come by, but those that do play FS wouldn't bother without them.

I guess it's a different scenario, but you see what I'm getting at? In otherwords does anyone here play Grim Tutors in the decks on MWS that simply can't when they play the exact deck elsewhere? Do they fuction better with them or can you just live without?

I, along with the rest of my team, play Grim Tutors IRL in Grim Iggy. We have for a long time now. Incidentally, we do well with the deck, but nobody seems to notice.

[Arsenal]

Grim Tutor's cost is what's holding it back from being more widely played. $150 a piece is insane, entire decks can be made for one Grim Tutor. If Grim Tutor was reprinted, or it's price was more reasonable, than I think it'd see more play.

[Nightmare]

I know this is heresy, but I really think that it's the restriction of cards that leads to their insane broken-ness.

I played in a meta that not only had unrestricted Demonic Tutor but also had unrestricted Channel and unrestricted Black Lotus and unrestricted moxen and unrestricted Ancestral Recall and unrestricted Timewalk and unrestricted Timetwister, etc.

Did I lose to some gross decks on turn 1? Sure. Did these decks run all of these power cards? Well do the math.

Generally speaking I beat these decks with a turn 1 Juggernaut or Sinkhole or Energy Flux unless they found their combo by turn 5 and often they didn't. Sometimes I'd drop my hand and twist them for theirs on turn 1. The average game went 7 or 8 turns, which is effectively where the majority of Legacy games have gone over by.

If Force of Will had been in the meta in 1994 I think we'd never have seen card restrictions at all. It was the people who could not handle losing 20% of their games on turn 1 that ultimately forced the changeover to a restricted meta in which control was now going to be dominant.

Just adding in: Demonic Tutor on turn 1 or 2 is like saying: here have an extra turn to play stuff while I go get my win condition, which you may have a counter to. I can't tell you the number of times I watched a Fastbond recursion deck go get their win card on turn 2 and say go only to watch me put up Nethervoid on turn 3 and lock them out of ever being able to win the game.
If you were winning games against decks with all of that available by going Juggernaut, go, then every person you played against should be ashamed of themself. Either that, or it was still 1994, or you're a liar. I'm leaning toward B, with C being a real possibility.

Demonic Tutor on Turn 1 or two usually means they win the game soonafter.

Edit - Ok, I doubt you're lying, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Dilettante]

Grim Tutor's cost is what's holding it back from being more widely played. $150 a piece is insane, entire decks can be made for one Grim Tutor. If Grim Tutor was reprinted, or it's price was more reasonable, than I think it'd see more play.

It is the most expensive card in the format in its lowest available cost... second if you count Juzam Djinn...

Hrm... why isn't Splendid Genesis in the Legacy banned list?

http://www.trollandtoad.com/p137323.html

[Cavius The Great]

So Grim is perfectly balanced? I figured being cost prohibitive was the main issue, but I didn't think that would stop people from playing them. People may not play FS because Drakes are money and somewhat hard to come by, but those that do play FS wouldn't bother without them.

I guess it's a different scenario, but you see what I'm getting at? In otherwords does anyone here play Grim Tutors in the decks on MWS that simply can't when they play the exact deck elsewhere? Do they fuction better with them or can you just live without?

Grim Tutor is the shit. I have a Tendrils based combo deck that I've been working on that runs 4. I also run 3-4 silver bullets which is only possible with tutoring power.

[FoolofaTook]

If you were winning games against decks with all of that available by going Juggernaut, go, then every person you played against should be ashamed of themself. Either that, or it was still 1994, or you're a liar. I'm leaning toward B, with C being a real possibility.

Demonic Tutor on Turn 1 or two usually means they win the game soonafter.

How old were you in 1994?

I just have to ask based on your presentation.

Here are some things you're not taking into account with your analysis:

1. In 1994 (and for quite a long time thereafter) you had a single mulligan, and one that you could not exercize unless you had either 7 land or no land in hand. There were people who did play all artifact mana so that they could mulligan on every draw. Those people died quickly to Nethervoid or Energy Flux for obvious reasons, both spells that were easily castable on turn 1 and certainly by turn 3.

2. Play like 36 power cards in your deck. Ancestral Recall, Timewalk, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Fast Bond, Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, Moxen, play 4 of each. Die to a Juggernaut that only Fireball removes when that's the card you can't find before turn 3 when you are locked out of effectively casting it.

Combo in 1994 was pretty much like combo today: hit your run and you're golden, get locked out and you're dead. No difference. Channel-Fireball was a 27% win (as I recall, might have been 23%) on turn 1 and a nasty short loss often otherwise.

3. Try to play a permission deck in that meta without Force of Will or Daze and without Duress, Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize to go fishing.

[Shtriga]

It is the most expensive card in the format in its lowest available cost... second if you count Juzam Djinn...

Hrm... why isn't Splendid Genesis in the Legacy banned list?

http://www.trollandtoad.com/p137323.html

who would pay 3 grand for a card that isn't very good or even playable to begin with? outside of collectible purposes

[emidln]

How old were you in 1994?

I just have to ask based on your presentation.

Here are some things you're not taking into account with your analysis:

1. In 1994 (and for quite a long time thereafter) you had a single mulligan, and one that you could not exercize unless you had either 7 land or no land in hand. There were people who did play all artifact mana so that they could mulligan on every draw. Those people died quickly to Nethervoid or Energy Flux for obvious reasons, both spells that were easily castable on turn 1 and certainly by turn 3.

2. Play like 36 power cards in your deck. Ancestral Recall, Timewalk, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Fast Bond, Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, Moxen, play 4 of each. Die to a Juggernaut that only Fireball removes when that's the card you can't find before turn 3 when you are locked out of effectively casting it.

Combo in 1994 was pretty much like combo today: hit your run and you're golden, get locked out and you're dead. No difference. Channel-Fireball was a 27% win (as I recall, might have been 23%) on turn 1 and a nasty short loss often otherwise.

Combo of today cheats. Seriously. Older combo decks were incredibly inconsistent. Necropotence, additional black rituals, Mind's Desire, Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Misdirection, Windfall, Draw4s, Street Wraith, Ponder, and Brainstorm all make for exponentially more consistent decks that can combo out early but maintain strong mid to late games through hate. Current "Long" decks can easily eclipse 30% turn 1 kills, something that modern Flash combo laughs at with at least a 40% turn 1 kill rate. Demonic Tutor allows Long to combo off more consistently by finding Will and Lotus more often and it allows both decks to play through hate better by finding solutions to lock pieces or countermagic.

[Nightmare]

1. In 1994 (and for quite a long time thereafter) you had a single mulligan, and one that you could not exercize unless you had either 7 land or no land in hand. There were people who did play all artifact mana so that they could mulligan on every draw. Those people died quickly to Nethervoid or Energy Flux for obvious reasons, both spells that were easily castable on turn 1 and certainly by turn 3.
I was 11, not that my age has anything to do with it. Aside from the fact that you're old enough to be my father, the disparity in our age doesn't prevent me from constructing an analysis of the decks around that time, nor does it mean I'm somehow incapable of knowing about the history of the game. I'm well aware of the old rules - in fact, I still use them almost everyday when I play around on Shandalar. I learned the game under Pre-sixth rules, I'm quite familiar with them.


2. Play like 36 power cards in your deck. Ancestral Recall, Timewalk, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Fast Bond, Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, Moxen, play 4 of each. Die to a Juggernaut that only Fireball removes when that's the card you can't find before turn 3 when you are locked out of effectively casting it.Like I said, the issue isn't that I don't believe you. The issue is, that comparison is totally irrelevant to any kind of discussion of relative power level today. Sure, you lose to Nether Void if you run that deck. No one runs that deck, or Nether Void. Still, I'm about 90% sure I could run a list that wins turn one greater than 60% of the time given the constraints of the format then, with the cardpool it had available. There's a big difference between the deckbuilding skills of the players then and now, based on 14 years of experience.


Combo in 1994 was pretty much like combo today: hit your run and you're golden, get locked out and you're dead. No difference. Channel-Fireball was a 27% win (as I recall, might have been 23%) on turn 1 and a nasty short loss often otherwise.Except, that's not how combo is today. Modern combo decks are phenomenally more resiliant to hate than they were then, because the hate actually exists. Aside from that, the combos are more robust, and they can be compacted into less pieces (due to the tutors that are available), leaving more room to protect the win. Also, Storm.

You're missing my point. You can't compare the world of 1994 Unrestricted Demonic Tutor with the world of 2008 Unrestricted Demonic Tutor. There are simply too many differences to be a reasonable comparison. Most of them can be boiled down to two things:

1. Storm did not exist in that format. Running 20 Moxen, 4 Lotus, 4 Sol Ring, 4 Dark Rit, and 4 Hurkyl's Recall, with access to 4 Twists, 4 Recalls, 4 Demonics, and even a SINGLE Mind's Desire into a Tendrils is an almost guaranteed turn 1 win. Sure, sometimes you whiff on your business spells. That will happen. It's a far, far better risk-reward ratio than any combo deck in Modern Magic.
2. Now pretend that you can use Yawgmoth's Will in that deck, too. See the issue?

[FoolofaTook]

You specifically insinuated that I was a liar for relating to you a game that I played in and that you obviously didn't.

Juggernaut, BTW, was the #1 killer in the meta of 1994. Nothing else was close in terms of actual wins.

And I agree that combo is more resilient today than it was back then. I also think that the very permissive mulliganing rules make both combo and the defense against it more certain to bring their effect into play.

The Mind's Desire storm deck that you posit would indeed be an amazing turn 1 killer off of the play. I can only imagine how quickly hate cards like Nethervoid would find their way back into play in that meta, as they found their way into the 1994 meta. The point is that when you restrict cards or ban them you just promote the guaranteed use of them (in the case of restriction) in many decks or you create newly dominant cards and themes to replace them. Vintage decks look like singleton decks these days because they have 17 single spells in them. The Vintage world would be much richer if people were arguing over which cards were the most broken by their choice of how many of a particular broken card to put in their deck as opposed to all playing the same broken cards in a third of their deck.

Permission Control became a dominant deck type because the meta was artificially slowed down to allow it to compete at which point it became absolutely dominant. That would never have happened in the original unrestricted format. The fact that Permission and Balance rose together is really not relevant, because the Zak Dolan deck that won at the end of 1994 after the restriction rules were put in place was already heading in the direction that ultimately lead to the Weissman deck.

[Nightmare]

You specifically insinuated that I was a liar for relating to you a game that I played in and that you obviously didn't.

Juggernaut, BTW, was the #1 killer in the meta of 1994. Nothing else was close in terms of actual wins.Relevance to this discussion - 0. I also reneged on that comment, as it wasn't the intention of the post. If you're looking for an apology, that's fine - I'm sorry. But it doesn't make you correct.

[FoolofaTook]

Combo of today cheats. Seriously. Older combo decks were incredibly inconsistent. Necropotence, additional black rituals, Mind's Desire, Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Misdirection, Windfall, Draw4s, Street Wraith, Ponder, and Brainstorm all make for exponentially more consistent decks that can combo out early but maintain strong mid to late games through hate. Current "Long" decks can easily eclipse 30% turn 1 kills, something that modern Flash combo laughs at with at least a 40% turn 1 kill rate. Demonic Tutor allows Long to combo off more consistently by finding Will and Lotus more often and it allows both decks to play through hate better by finding solutions to lock pieces or countermagic.

Pick your broken combo and deck and put 4 each of the enablers (or whatever number above 1 is what is optimal) in it. I bet you can't find 25% of the Legacy player base that will agree with you that what you have is the most broken deck. I bet Goblins and Fish and Sui Black (or the variants of these that develop in that combo-licious meta) will still show up in the top 8 of major tourneys as they did in the Philly thing.

I agree that Legacy is designed to be a slower, more interaction producing meta. I don't think it should change dramatically from where it is now. So having banned cards is a good thing. I also think the fear of excessive turn 1 wins is a disabling element in the overall Magic meta game. That fear is really about losing the die roll not losing on turn 1. That's always what it has been and always what it will be. That's what they need to fix.

BTW, just realized I had to correct something in your response: the recursion decks that were trying to Channel-Fireball or Channel-Braingeyser-Fork you to death were almost always a kill by turn 5 if you did not establish permanent hate by then or kill them yourself. By that standard they were more consistent than many of the Legacy combo decks are today.

[FoolofaTook]

Relevance to this discussion - 0. I also reneged on that comment, as it wasn't the intention of the post. If you're looking for an apology, that's fine - I'm sorry. But it doesn't make you correct.

I'm ok, I'm going to go edit my post which was made in the heat of the moment.

Your comment was that if people were losing to Juggernaut they should be ashamed of themselves. I was just pointing out the arrogance of that assumption given that you did not play in that meta with the cards that were available then and under the rules as they stood.

[emidln]

Pick your broken combo and deck and put 4 each of the enablers (or whatever number above 1 is what is optimal) in it. I bet you can't find 25% of the Legacy player base that will agree with you that what you have is the most broken deck. I bet Goblins and Fish and Sui Black (or the variants of these that develop in that combo-licious meta) will still show up in the top 8 of major tourneys as they did in the Philly thing.

BTW, just realized I had to correct something in your response: the recursion decks that were trying to Channel-Fireball or Channel-Braingeyser-Fork you to death were almost always a kill by turn 5 if you did not establish permanent hate by then or kill them yourself. By that standard they were more consistent than many of the Legacy combo decks are today.

For the record, I was talking about vintage combo decks.

However, Legacy Tendrils will kill you on turn 1-2 if you don't present relevant disruption in the form of duress effects, chant effects, or countermagic. "Land, birds, go" is a sure way to lose a game to Tendrils on the draw, even i your turn 2 play would have been thoughtseize, extirpate a card, and hold Orim's Chant backup. It is the rare exception that Tendrils can't win by turn 2 (I mean an actual win too, not casting ETW for a lot). Through significant disruption, the average kill is moved to turn 2-5. That is, the current crop of combo decks assemble the kill + chant backup or the kill + bounce for permanent hate by turn 5. TES and Fetchland Tendrils both do this. Legacy's storm decks are actually the most aggressive storm decks currently found in eternal formats, eclipsed only by Vintage Flash in speed + protection, though greatly surpassing Flash in resiliency to permanent-based hate. This is almost entirely due to the presence of superior on-color acceleration in the Legacy format compared to Vintage.

[FoolofaTook]

For the record, I was talking about vintage combo decks.

However, Legacy Tendrils will kill you on turn 1-2 if you don't present relevant disruption in the form of duress effects, chant effects, or countermagic. "Land, birds, go" is a sure way to lose a game to Tendrils on the draw, even i your turn 2 play would have been thoughtseize, extirpate a card, and hold Orim's Chant backup. It is the rare exception that Tendrils can't win by turn 2 (I mean an actual win too, not casting ETW for a lot). Through significant disruption, the average kill is moved to turn 2-5. That is, the current crop of combo decks assemble the kill + chant backup or the kill + bounce for permanent hate by turn 5. TES and Fetchland Tendrils both do this. Legacy's storm decks are actually the most aggressive storm decks currently found in eternal formats, eclipsed only by Vintage Flash in speed + protection, though greatly surpassing Flash in resiliency to permanent-based hate. This is almost entirely due to the presence of superior on-color acceleration in the Legacy format compared to Vintage.

I have a question related to the topic. You obviously know the current Legacy combo meta a lot better than I do so maybe you know the answer.

Would having 4 Demonic Tutor in Legacy Tendrils speed up the kill, make the combo more likely to come out if you missed the turn 2 current win, or essentially just replace other draw devices that perform equally well at these tasks?

[kirdape3]

They really didn't know any better (look at Dolan's deck from Worlds that year and how clunky it was) as to how to build decks.

As for the idea that Demonic Tutor would be fair as a four-of, search "The Equils A-Bomb" on classicdojo.org. Imagine that deck (from 1999) with 4 Demonics in it. Yeah, that's real fair. Even non-combo decks would bend themselves in all sorts of ways to accomodate a tutor on that level. Vampiric would be equally format-warping; play these cards or explain why you wouldn't.

[Dilettante]

I have a question related to the topic. You obviously know the current Legacy combo meta a lot better than I do so maybe you know the answer.

Would having 4 Demonic Tutor in Legacy Tendrils speed up the kill, make the combo more likely to come out if you missed the turn 2 current win, or essentially just replace other draw devices that perform equally well at these tasks?

It does not speed up the kill. Instead, it makes it safer to run and easier to fetch disruption-killers. It gives you 4 more "kill conditions" instead of draw/mana effects and you can do something like maindeck Shattering Spree for a meta. It improves consistency. It's also a more flexible card. You can IGG for 2 Demonic Tutors to try to beat out some effects in case they have something in their GY (a Force) and rush both out to get one to cast into Storm, for example... You can't do that with 2 Infernal Tutors. You have less reliance on IGG/Lion's Eye/Chrome Mox to go off as well, since you no longer have to deplete your hand to nothing.
It's still a mana-generator or storm-count generator in your hand, grabbing LED without needing one in hand like Infernal... or a singleton Cabal Ritual if you manage to figure out you can dump enough...

[FoolofaTook]

They really didn't know any better (look at Dolan's deck from Worlds that year and how clunky it was) as to how to build decks.

As for the idea that Demonic Tutor would be fair as a four-of, search "The Equils A-Bomb" on classicdojo.org. Imagine that deck (from 1999) with 4 Demonics in it. Yeah, that's real fair. Even non-combo decks would bend themselves in all sorts of ways to accomodate a tutor on that level. Vampiric would be equally format-warping; play these cards or explain why you wouldn't.

What would Demonic Tutor replace in Legacy Tendrils?

On the second point, what exactly would all of these decks remove to include four of Demonic Tutor? If you have an aggro deck that is relying on getting up a proactive hoser very early then adding 4 tutors for it at the cost of a sorcery speed turn consumer is going to hinder the first few turns as much as it promotes the next few. It's really going to come down to whether the eventual play is countered or hated out or not.

The rule of thumb in 1994 was don't counter Demonic Tutor, counter the thing it goes to get. That's still likely to be the case, although the increase in worthy uncounterables would make it riskier.

I absolutely understand the value of being able to go get the thing you need right now, whenever right now happens to be in the game, I just don't see it as making fast decks any relevantly faster. It would make slower control decks more consistent though as they could go back to playing single answers with multiple ways to get them.

In any case, I'm not arguing for unbanning Demonic Tutor, it's clearly more powerful than any tutor in the current metagame and would become a de facto inclusion in decks playing tutors and black. Kind of like Force of Will is a de facto inclusion in decks playing counters and blue and Tarmogoyf is a de facto inclusion in decks playing creatures and green.

I am, however, arguing that the unbanning of Demonic Tutor would have only marginal relevance to which decks were winning tournaments consistently. I think it would make combo stronger and dedicated control stronger and everybody else weaker by comparison.

[FoolofaTook]

It does not speed up the kill. Instead, it makes it safer to run and easier to fetch disruption-killers. It gives you 4 more "kill conditions" instead of draw/mana effects and you can do something like maindeck Shattering Spree for a meta. It improves consistency. It's also a more flexible card. You can IGG for 2 Demonic Tutors to try to beat out some effects in case they have something in their GY (a Force) and rush both out to get one to cast into Storm, for example... You can't do that with 2 Infernal Tutors. You have less reliance on IGG/Lion's Eye/Chrome Mox to go off as well, since you no longer have to deplete your hand to nothing.

I completely agree with everything you said above, with the exception that LED is going to get cracked for it's effect at some point to power the continuation of spells required to build up the necessary storm.

Realistically wouldn't the addition of Demonic Tutor just bring dedicated combo up to the strength level of aggro-control and mid-range board control now?

Again, I'm not arguing for it being unbanned, just making the point that it's only marginally more broken than some of the Legacy staples today and it's not an auto-include if it hits the format.

[Dilettante]

I completely agree with everything you said above, with the exception that LED is going to get cracked for it's effect at some point to power the continuation of spells required to build up the necessary storm.

Realistically wouldn't the addition of Demonic Tutor just bring dedicated combo up to the strength level of aggro-control and mid-range board control now?

Again, I'm not arguing for it being unbanned, just making the point that it's only marginally more broken than some of the Legacy staples today and it's not an auto-include if it hits the format.

You don't necessarily need to fetch LED. It makes Cabal Ritual much more dangerous. Demonic Tutor also allows the very dangerous play of just fetching an Orim's Chant... or Tormod's Crypt boarded in. The one mana is a huge margin that it allows for. Being very consistently able to grab an Orim's Chant turn 1 and then go off turn 2 is a format breaker. Like Lackey.

[FoolofaTook]

You don't necessarily need to fetch LED. It makes Cabal Ritual much more dangerous. Demonic Tutor also allows the very dangerous play of just fetching an Orim's Chant... or Tormod's Crypt boarded in. The one mana is a huge margin that it allows for. Being very consistently able to grab an Orim's Chant turn 1 and then go off turn 2 is a format breaker. Like Lackey.

Exactly.

I can also imagine the hands with 2 or 3 Demonic Tutors and enough land/mana to power them and the tempo hit that causes.

Balance is a totally broken spell because at 2cc it can completely change the game state and it combos with so many permanents to create a win that it just can't possibly be reasonable to include it as a 4-of.

Demonic Tutor is only as broken as what it goes to fetch and frequently it is that spell, a turn later than you'd like to cast it, that eventually effects the game state.

[kirdape3]

Which Legacy Tendrils deck are we talking about? Bryant Cook's deck (because really, he's the only one that I'd care about who plays it) upgrades his Infernal Tutors. That makes life a lot simpler because he doesn't have to worry about blowing his whole hand just to get the one card he needs. All of the Grim Tutor decks would immediately play Demonic over Grim for the obvious reasons.

What I'd be more worried about is any deck that would want to go find utility lands. I could easily see Landstill just tutoring up a land (Monastery, Dust Bowl, Wasteland, what have you) and mocking you for not counterspelling the Tutor. Demonic Tutor is a degenerate card because it costs so little mana to work - a 'fair' version costs twice as much.

[Di]

Demonic Tutor would be the next Tarmogoyf. Every damn deck that could splash black would. There'd be absolutely no reason not to. This is an absolutely rediculous discussion.

[Machinus]

They really didn't know any better (look at Dolan's deck from Worlds that year and how clunky it was) as to how to build decks.

As for the idea that Demonic Tutor would be fair as a four-of, search "The Equils A-Bomb" on classicdojo.org. Imagine that deck (from 1999) with 4 Demonics in it. Yeah, that's real fair. Even non-combo decks would bend themselves in all sorts of ways to accomodate a tutor on that level. Vampiric would be equally format-warping; play these cards or explain why you wouldn't.

I think Vamp is close to fair. DT is much stronger.

[FoolofaTook]

Demonic Tutor would be the next Tarmogoyf. Every damn deck that could splash black would. There'd be absolutely no reason not to. This is an absolutely rediculous discussion.

I don't see that as necessarily so.

Sui Black might not even play Demonic Tutor in an all black deck because of the tempo loss of having to forgo a turn doing something else disruptive.

As to the everybody splashing black for Demonic Tutor I think that's probably not even close to the case. Would decks that already splash black for Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize find a way to fit Demonic Tutor in? Probably. In order to fit Demonic Tutor in as a 4-of you need to play spells that are valuable enough to forgo a turn's play for. Are there decks that's true of? Sure. But there are a lot of decks that really want to play stuff on turn 1 and turn 2 not go tutoring for something to play on turn 2 and 3.

Kirdape3 is right though, Demonic Tutor would be very valuable in control decks that were happy to sit back for a few turns and then sweep the board. That, and combo , are the decks that would benefit the most from having Demonic Tutor available.

[Cavius The Great]

With Demonic Tutor you can run silver bullets, Fooloftook. You don't necessarily have to run four of everything. That fact alone makes it much more dangerous to the format.

[from Cairo]

My question would be, What would be the perfect comination of mana, life, speed, to pay in order to get the perfect balance between broken and downright aweful? 4 Life, 2cc (BB), more for instant speed, what?

I think 2cc is too cheap for it to be an unconditional Legacy balanced tutor. Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor are both 2cc sorcery speed and both have pretty large conditions on them, which I think works to keep them Legacy legal. I think Grim Tutor seems pretty fair as far as costs for an unconditional tutor. :1: :b: :b: makes it something that can't be splashed into any deck designs wouldn't make use of it. At the same time it works in Black Storm Combo decks as a strong tutor.

Overall I think there are some that are clearly too powerful for the format..
Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor.

Some that are just about the right power level..
Grim Tutor, Burning Wish.

Some that conditionally will find their way into niches in the format..
Mystical Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Eldamri's Call, Cunning Wish, Merchant Scroll, Infernal Tutor.

and some that are too restrictive/underpowered..
Cruel Tutor, Rhystic Tutor, Idyllic Tutor, Death Wish, Golden Wish.

[Di]

As to the everybody splashing black for Demonic Tutor I think that's probably not even close to the case. Would decks that already splash black for Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize find a way to fit Demonic Tutor in? Probably. In order to fit Demonic Tutor in as a 4-of you need to play spells that are valuable enough to forgo a turn's play for. Are there decks that's true of? Sure. But there are a lot of decks that really want to play stuff on turn 1 and turn 2 not go tutoring for something to play on turn 2 and 3.

Off the top of my head:

- All combo decks. All of them.
- Any control deck that can afford a light black splash. That happens to be all of them.
- Any deck that heavily relies on single cards. This includes all Loam decks, Survival decks, and other similar strategies.
- Any midrange aggro deck that can afford a black splash. This is moreso towards The Rock type decks.
- Deadguy Ale would run it. So would Suicide Black. Any deck that is given the opportunity to find an answer will take it. It's not like they win within the first 3 turns of the game. Odds are, they will run out of gas. Tutor will find whatever you want, not to mention sideboard cards.
- Threshold could easily run it. Given their cantrips are 1-for-1, running a 1B 1-for-whatever-the-hell-you-want is a pretty good case.
- Any deck wishing to do a silver bullet type strategy.

I could go on. Should I? The only decks I see that would not incorporate this are Goblins, who already runs a set, and decks that can't really afford to use another color, like Dragon Stompy. Otherwise, it'd be inexcusable not to run it.

[FoolofaTook]

Off the top of my head:

- All combo decks. All of them.
- Any control deck that can afford a light black splash. That happens to be all of them.
- Any deck that heavily relies on single cards. This includes all Loam decks, Survival decks, and other similar strategies.
- Any midrange aggro deck that can afford a black splash. This is moreso towards The Rock type decks.
- Deadguy Ale would run it. So would Suicide Black. Any deck that is given the opportunity to find an answer will take it. It's not like they win within the first 3 turns of the game. Odds are, they will run out of gas. Tutor will find whatever you want, not to mention sideboard cards.
- Threshold could easily run it. Given their cantrips are 1-for-1, running a 1B 1-for-whatever-the-hell-you-want is a pretty good case.
- Any deck wishing to do a silver bullet type strategy.

I could go on. Should I? The only decks I see that would not incorporate this are Goblins, who already runs a set, and decks that can't really afford to use another color, like Dragon Stompy. Otherwise, it'd be inexcusable not to run it.

In your scenario welcome to the only meta that Dragon Stompy would dominate.

And I really disagree on Sui Black. 90% of the time if they haven't effectively won by turn 4 they're not going to and they can't afford to take a turn off to tutor for whatever 1cc or 2cc bomb it replaced in the deck that would have landed on their opponent in a timely fashion if it was in the deck.

[DragoFireheart]

How about a Tutor that causes you to do the following:



Imps' Tutor

[2B]

Instant

Search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

If you can, take a card of your choice other than the one that was searched for, reveal it, and put that card on the bottom of your library. If you are unable to place a card on the bottom of your library, you lose 2 life.

[from Cairo]

How about a Tutor that causes you to do the following:



Imps' Tutor

[2B]

Instant

Search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

If you can, take a card of your choice other than the one that was searched for, reveal it, and put that card on the bottom of your library. If you are unable to place a card on the bottom of your library, you lose 2 life.

Im not sure Im reading it right, but you escentially cast the tutor pull up a card of your choice to hand, then shuffle you're library and put a card from hand at the bottom of your library or lose 2 life?

It seem very very solid, like Cruel Tutor only instead of missing a draw step to get the card, you can either move something horrible clogging your hand to the bottom of the library or just take the damage.

3 cc is some what prohibitive, but I think it might see play, like in Survival varients or something similar where there are often situational cards that would be better off as Survival or a post SB piece of hate.

[emidln]

In your scenario welcome to the only meta that Dragon Stompy would dominate.


Dragon Stompy can hardly beat the newest versions of storm combo now, let alone storm combo with Infernal Tutors that can now find Serenity, Rushing River, basic lands, or Rebuild on command. Storm combo and Landstill would dominate this meta. As much as I love storm combo, it's not something I would want to play in.

[Bovinious]

How about a Tutor that causes you to do the following:



Imps' Tutor

[2B]

Instant

Search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

If you can, take a card of your choice other than the one that was searched for, reveal it, and put that card on the bottom of your library. If you are unable to place a card on the bottom of your library, you lose 2 life.

So like a Gamble with non-random discard? Thatd be good, but because its a good idea WOTC wont do it, its just how the world works :(

[FoolofaTook]

Dragon Stompy can hardly beat the newest versions of storm combo now, let alone storm combo with Infernal Tutors that can now find Serenity, Rushing River, basic lands, or Rebuild on command. Storm combo and Landstill would dominate this meta. As much as I love storm combo, it's not something I would want to play in.

Dragon Stompy would absolutely dominate a meta where 4c was the rule because all the decks were splashing black for Demonic Tutor. Blood Moon would be the fiercest hate in that meta and would shut down more than half of the meta without a fight.

I actually went back and looked at Vintage card lists, and as recently as 2004 half the top 8 finishers in the East Coast Vintage Championships did not include Demonic Tutor. So much for it being an auto-include and something you have to splash for.

[emidln]

Dragon Stompy would absolutely dominate a meta where 4c was the rule because all the decks were splashing black for Demonic Tutor. Blood Moon would be the fiercest hate in that meta and would shut down more than half of the meta without a fight.

Why would 4c necessarily be the rule? UBx would likely be the choice to prevent not only losses to Blood Moon, but more relevantly, losses to Wastelock in the mirror. Such lists can easily accomodate 3-5 basic lands with basic islands and basics of a splash color. The lists would likely end up including maindeck Thoughtseize or Duress which further complicates Dragon Stompy's already shaky starts.

In recent memory, the only decks that don't play Demonic Tutor that could have been UR Slaver and some Flash builds. UR Slaver sans Moon effects (as it originally existed) was quickly surpassed by the power of Demonic Tutor, Duress, and Yawgmoth's Will. The decks not playing Demonic Tutor are doing so because they are necessarily mono-colored (Mono Red Stax/Mono Red Shop Aggro/TMWA (although it's not black and playing DT if memory serves), focused strategies (Ichorid, Goblins), or happen to be specific archetype builds that have versions that run DT (U/R Landstill, U/W Fish, Bomberman come to mind).

Decks from Dawn of the Dead (B/G/W Aggro-Control), UWb Fish, Slaver, Gifts, GAT, 5c Stax, Oath, Doomsday, on up through Grim Long play Demonic Tutor. Decks not playing Demonic Tutor need a very good reason to not do so, which is why even builds of TMWA, Red Shop Aggro, Red Stax, Landstill, Fish, and Bomberman have ended up incorporating DT.

[FoolofaTook]

Why would 4c necessarily be the rule? UBx would likely be the choice to prevent not only losses to Blood Moon, but more relevantly, losses to Wastelock in the mirror. Such lists can easily accomodate 3-5 basic lands with basic islands and basics of a splash color. The lists would likely end up including maindeck Thoughtseize or Duress which further complicates Dragon Stompy's already shaky starts.

I was just following Di's post above in which he posited that all control decks would put in a light splash of black for Demonic Tutor. That would make most of them 4c.


In recent memory, the only decks that don't play Demonic Tutor that could have been UR Slaver and some Flash builds. UR Slaver sans Moon effects (as it originally existed) was quickly surpassed by the power of Demonic Tutor, Duress, and Yawgmoth's Will. The decks not playing Demonic Tutor are doing so because they are necessarily mono-colored (Mono Red Stax/Mono Red Shop Aggro/TMWA (although it's not black and playing DT if memory serves), focused strategies (Ichorid, Goblins), or happen to be specific archetype builds that have versions that run DT (U/R Landstill, U/W Fish, Bomberman come to mind).

That sounds like a lot of decks that choose not to run Demonic Tutor.


Decks from Dawn of the Dead (B/G/W Aggro-Control), UWb Fish, Slaver, Gifts, GAT, 5c Stax, Oath, Doomsday, on up through Grim Long play Demonic Tutor. Decks not playing Demonic Tutor need a very good reason to not do so, which is why even builds of TMWA, Red Shop Aggro, Red Stax, Landstill, Fish, and Bomberman have ended up incorporating DT.

The Vintage card pool is strong enough that Demonic Tutor is not going to be a make or break affair in any deck. Is it a strong alternative in most decks? Sure. But there are 30+ cards that is true of in Vintage at the moment.

Demonic Tutor and Regrowth are perfect examples of cards that slide naturally into almost any deck running Black or Green and tempt many decks not running those colors to splash for them. They're not auto-includes though.

[Shion]

Except that Regrowth is very rarely an early game card. Regrowth can't fetch you answers during the most important turns in legacy, turns 1 through 4. Demonic Tutor can and will. There is just very little reason not to run demonic tutor, especially in legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

Except that Regrowth is very rarely an early game card. Regrowth can't fetch you answers during the most important turns in legacy, turns 1 through 4. Demonic Tutor can and will. There is just very little reason not to run demonic tutor, especially in legacy.

And there's very little reason not to run Brainstorm, given that it can be splashed for. And there's very little reason not to run Goyf. And there's very little reason not to run Sword to Plowshares. And there's very little reason not to run Sensei's Divining Top. And there's very little reason not to run... Well you get my point, I hope, the majority of decks in Legacy run one or more of these cards but only a handful run all of them and probably less than half run more than two of them.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I know this is heresy, but I really think that it's the restriction of cards that leads to their insane broken-ness.

I played in a meta that not only had unrestricted Demonic Tutor but also had unrestricted Channel and unrestricted Black Lotus and unrestricted moxen and unrestricted Ancestral Recall and unrestricted Timewalk and unrestricted Timetwister, etc.

Did I lose to some gross decks on turn 1? Sure. Did these decks run all of these power cards? Well do the math.

Generally speaking I beat these decks with a turn 1 Juggernaut or Sinkhole or Energy Flux unless they found their combo by turn 5 and often they didn't. Sometimes I'd drop my hand and twist them for theirs on turn 1. The average game went 7 or 8 turns, which is effectively where the majority of Legacy games have gone over by.
...
Just adding in: Demonic Tutor on turn 1 or 2 is like saying: here have an extra turn to play stuff while I go get my win condition, which you may have a counter to. I can't tell you the number of times I watched a Fastbond recursion deck go get their win card on turn 2 and say go only to watch me put up Nethervoid on turn 3 and lock them out of ever being able to win the game.

For some reason I thought of this:

http://www.magiccorporation.com/scan/unhinged/old_fogey.jpg

I was only 13 at the time, but I remember when Juggernaut was a beast and people played Nether Void. I was the one losing to them with Johnny's R/G Beatz picked out of the quarter bin.:laugh:

[mercenarybdu]

Infernal and Grim Tutor happen to be the most useful.

Grim could fetch me a card without ever showing it at 3 mana and 3 life, but still runs the risk in the desperate places of the game.

Infernal is only good if you are running so many of the same copies of a single card in one given deck. But then if you run draw too many of them in the opener then you are always bound to run the risk of losing at most games.

[ninjabear]

There are some tutor effects missing in the discusion imho. Out of my head, Diabolic Intent and Lim Dul's Vault (let's face it, IT IS a tutor).

About Demonic Tutor, I don't think it would be the new Tarmogoyf. If would mean adding black to some decks, as it's a powerful tool (everyone claims it's a tool for combo, but, come on, it's a tool con control as well!). Most non-tempo driven decks could fit that card. But most non-tempo driven can fit Burning Wish, but, for different reasons, they don't.

Juggernaut (we called him back then Lightning Rod, for its tendency of getting bolted), was a complete beast, but so was Serra Angel. Look at them now. With the new cards, creatures get stronger and stronger. Also, it's funny to see cards like Wrath of God or Armageddon, previously widely played (Wrath of God is still a format-wrapping card in Standard) that almost noone plays nowadays in Legacy (too slow).


The rule of thumb in 1994 was don't counter Demonic Tutor, counter the thing it goes to get. That's still likely to be the case, although the increase in worthy uncounterables would make it riskier.
In my humble opinion, it's not wise not to counter the tutor. It's like mana acceleration. You don't counter the win condition (as it will most probably be uncountereable), you just want them locked without being able to start their chain (no mana, no tutors). It's like a Meddling Mage against Solidarity: some people though it was wise to name "Brain Freeze" only to find that when they have 50 blue mana in their pool and 2 cunning wish they could either kill you with Stroke of Genius, or just bounce your mage and go for Brain Freeze. I think it's wiser to name either High Tide (to stop them going mad on mana) or Cunning Wish/Meditate (their card advantage / tutor effects). If Reset High Tide starts to go off, you are dead. You have to stop them from the very beginning.


Infernal is only good if you are running so many of the same copies of a single card in one given deck. But then if you run draw too many of them in the opener then you are always bound to run the risk of losing at most games
I think it's pretty strange to see Infernal tutor used to fetch a copy; I have almost always seen it used with Hellbent (with the help of Lion's Eye Diamond or Ill Gotten Gains, in the case of Iggy Pop).

[DragoFireheart]

So like a Gamble with non-random discard? Thatd be good, but because its a good idea WOTC wont do it, its just how the world works :(

Yeah, a Gamble without the randomness that will cause life loss if the only card in your hand is the one you just tutored.

[Nightmare]

And there's very little reason not to run Brainstorm, given that it can be splashed for. And there's very little reason not to run Goyf. And there's very little reason not to run Sword to Plowshares. And there's very little reason not to run Sensei's Divining Top. And there's very little reason not to run... Well you get my point, I hope, the majority of decks in Legacy run one or more of these cards but only a handful run all of them and probably less than half run more than two of them.TEC runs all of them. And if I could run Demonic Tutor, I'd run that, too. No real content here, just sayin.

[FoolofaTook]

In my humble opinion, it's not wise not to counter the tutor. It's like mana acceleration. You don't counter the win condition (as it will most probably be uncountereable), you just want them locked without being able to start their chain (no mana, no tutors). It's like a Meddling Mage against Solidarity: some people though it was wise to name "Brain Freeze" only to find that when they have 50 blue mana in their pool and 2 cunning wish they could either kill you with Stroke of Genius, or just bounce your mage and go for Brain Freeze. I think it's wiser to name either High Tide (to stop them going mad on mana) or Cunning Wish/Meditate (their card advantage / tutor effects). If Reset High Tide starts to go off, you are dead. You have to stop them from the very beginning.

I agree on this, I was thinking about it after I posted and there are too many conditionals in play to not counter the Demonic Tutor unless you have a near certainty as to what's going to be pulled and that it's counterable. Storm spells are the thing that would be tutorable where you absolutely could not let the tutor go off, maybe Academy Ruins also.



I think it's pretty strange to see Infernal tutor used to fetch a copy; I have almost always seen it used with Hellbent (with the help of Lion's Eye Diamond or Ill Gotten Gains, in the case of Iggy Pop).

I've been wondering a little bit about using Infernal Tutor to enable Sensei, Sensei. Maybe in a deck with other 1cc bombs like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize.


TEC runs all of them. And if I could run Demonic Tutor, I'd run that, too. No real content here, just sayin.

Yep, there are definitely decks in the format that run all of those and there are decks that run 4 and 3. The overall meta though does not run more than 2 of those usually and there are decks that run none of them.

I am not arguing for Demonic Tutor being unbanned because I think it would have a heavy influence on the meta, I'm just arguing that it wouldn't be an auto-include that warped the meta seriously. It would make combo and mid-range control stronger and aggro and aggro-control weaker.