[Article] Are You There, Wizards? It’s Me, Adam

[TrialByFire]

Excellent Article by our own Mr. Nightmare. Great read. I love the argument and the awesome suggestion of Island Sanctuary. I forgot how much of a beating that card was.

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15514.html)

[Muradin]

I really liked this article. Island Sanctuary actually looks quite promising, too.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Island Sanctuary? <3 How about comboing it with Sylvan Library to keep your draws coming each turn? Their mana costs are both pretty spashable too.

[Tacosnape]

Ugh. Nightmare, you know you're my hero. I've even got the Fathead of you on my wall. But I absolutely loathe every article about the B&R list ever. This one is no exception. Blargh.

[Di]

Island Sanctuary? <3 How about comboing it with Sylvan Library to keep your draws coming each turn? Their mana costs are both pretty spashable too.

Doesn't quite work. Believe me, we tried. If you skip a draw, you'll then draw 2, but since you activated Sylvan, you have to put two cards drawn this turn back, so you'll end up with no cards drawn unless you wish to pay the life.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Doesn't quite work. Believe me, we tried. If you skip a draw, you'll then draw 2, but since you activated Sylvan, you have to put two cards drawn this turn back, so you'll end up with no cards drawn unless you wish to pay the life.

I see. I was under the impression that Sylvan Library didn't count the normal card draw as one of the cards. My bad. I know this didn't work back in the day, but I was hoping maybe there was some kind of post 6th edition loophole like with Abundance.

[FoolofaTook]

Drawing cards and card advantage are pretty basic to successful Magic play in any meta. Maybe Island Sanctuary as a sideboard card against Goblins and weird creature heavy rogue decks.

Maybe in a deck with Isochron Scepters and a lot of draw instants in it also. Use the scepter to draw during your draw phase and replace a draw from it with the Island Sanctuary. Abeyance? That would shut down your opponent's actions completely until the end of your turn and by skipping the draw you gain protection from non-Islandwalking/Flying creatures during his turn. Obviously Brainstorm would be the backup plan to imprint on the scepter.

[Nihil Credo]

Kinda puzzled that a pro-unbanning article didn't mention Earthcraft and Dream Halls.

The Players' Union part was good, although it needed a few more paragraph breaks.


As for Island Sanctuary, I think it will become worth discussing when we find a solid way to fuel it that cannot also fuel Solitary Confinement.

[Elfrago]

All your cahnges to the B&R list are crazy. Well, maybe Dragon is fine.

[emidln]

Doesn't quite work. Believe me, we tried. If you skip a draw, you'll then draw 2, but since you activated Sylvan, you have to put two cards drawn this turn back, so you'll end up with no cards drawn unless you wish to pay the life.

Wrong, or at least not completely right. Island Sanctuary is a replacement effect on drawing cards during your draw step. You can do what we want here. This is how it would work.

Draw per turn happens as a game action. At this point you choose whether or not to replace the draw with Island Sanctuary. You choose not to. Now, Sylvan Library triggers and resolves and you choose to replace both card draws with Island Sanctuary's effect. Since you didn't actually "draw" cards from Sylvan Library, you don't pay life. End result is that you draw a card and have a Moat for 2WG.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Draw per turn happens as a game action. At this point you choose whether or not to replace the draw with Island Sanctuary. You choose not to. Now, Sylvan Library triggers and resolves and you choose to replace both card draws with Island Sanctuary's effect. Since you didn't actually "draw" cards from Sylvan Library, you don't pay life. End result is that you draw a card and have a Moat for 2WG.

Yeah, this is what I thought it did. Since both your Sylvan draws are replaced, you didnt actually draw anything from Sylvan, so you dont lose life, and cant put any cards back. I thought Sanctuary works the same as Abundance with replacement, like in this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8673) thread.

[Nightmare]

The difference between Sylvan + IS and Sylvan + abundance is that you replace ALL draws with abundance, which means you haven't drawn ANY cards that turn, including the normal draw for turn. Library doesn't care if you draw the cards from it or not, once you activate its ability, you must put as many cards as you've drawn this turn (up to two) back on top of your library, or pay four life for each you don't. In the case Emidln suggested, this means you put the card you did not skip drawing (your one for the turn) back on your library.

To clarify, there is no distinction as far as Sylvan can see, between the card you draw as a special action during your draw step, and the two cards you draw during the Sylvan activation.

Thanks for the comments guys! Keep 'em coming!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Island Sanctuary
If you would draw a card during your draw step, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, until your next turn, you can't be attacked except by creatures with flying and/or islandwalk.

Abundance
If you would draw a card, you may instead choose land or nonland and reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a card of the chosen kind. Put that card into your hand and put all other cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in any order.

The only difference I see is "during your draw step" for sanctuary. Is that the issue? Or is the drawing of the card before sylvan the thing that messes things up? If you replace the card draws from sylvan, you didnt actually draw anything, so the four life and putting cards back clause never plays.

[Toad]

No, that is not. With Abundance you replace all draws from Sylvan Librairy, so the "If you do" clause on it never occurs. If you do not replace all the draws, you will end up drawing 1 or more cards and the "If you do" clause will occur.

It's written entierely in Gatherer ...


9/16/2007 If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

[Nightmare]

The only difference I see is "during your draw step" for sanctuary. Is that the issue? Or is the drawing of the card before sylvan the thing that messes things up? If you replace the card draws from sylvan, you didnt actually draw anything, so the four life and putting cards back clause never plays.The difference is, you use Abundance to replace three draws during your draw step. You use Island Sanctuary to replace two. Clearer?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, then it worked up until September last year. Oh well :cry:



The difference is, you use Abundance to replace three draws during your draw step. You use Island Sanctuary to replace two. Clearer?

No. The reason it doesnt work is because of the special ruling that Toad cited, not because of the 2 vs. 3.

[Nightmare]

Toad and I are effectively saying the same thing, in different ways.

Enough on Sylvan plz. Moar on article.

[Eldariel]

Seeing that LSV played Replenish in his Enchantress-build at Worlds and that the deck hasn't been doing horribly outside that, it feels unfair to say that the card has done nothing. I mean, sure, it's a one-deck miracle and it hasn't reproduced the Replenish combo-decks of the old (gee, who woulda thought?), but seeing competitive play in one deck is way better than nothing.

I also don't know if Dragonless Reanimator really sucks as much as seems to be alluded here; it seems to finish well from time to time, but lacking in player base, it can't really make a splash as there aren't many present. The few times it did Top 8 in high-profile tournaments, there was some buzz about it, but then nobody seemed to bother playing it again. I don't really think the problem is as much in the deck as in the percieved players. This same phenomenon seems to plague Extended too: there're so many good decks in the format that some aren't simply played as they haven't had high profile finishes lately, UG Tron being the latest example of such.

[Dilettante]

Dark Confidant skirts completely around the draw step...

[Afro]

Adam, nice article. I'm glad to see someone agrees with me on the Tabernacle issue. If Wizards is gonna make a rule they should stick to it in my eyes.

[C.P.]

Generally, a fun one to read. I like the unbannings that you suggested.

However, I do not agree with the notion that a card should be banned for price reason. The borderline is very fine, and hard to define objectively. And as far as I'm aware, only cards that can possibly be argued that it was banned for the price reason is the mask, and I really don't think it really mattered where it was banned or not. If we ban cards just for the price reason, there will be a day that we ban every single old card(e.g. pre-Ice age or something) for the price reason. That would beat the purpose of playing eternal format.

Also, don't gimme a crap about Drain being banned for price reason. Drain deserves banning, hardcore.

[Nightmare]

I don't agree that cards should be banned for $, either. However, the policy was set in place that it does factor into the reasoning of the DCI, and there seems to me that if the policy exists, it should be adhered to. Whether or not the policy should be in place at all is an entirely different discussion.

[Finn]

Adam, I love your writing style. I was entertained throughout. That fact that in this case it reminds me of my own may play a part here. :wink:

I pretty solidly disagree with just about all your conclusions on the B+R list though. I think your criteria for unbanning cards like Metalworker, Frantic Search, and Grim Monolith is flawed. Why should we be actively enabling decks through the B+R list? Why do we need High Tide combo to return? Why should we help Stax, which you actually said is already gaining ground, by adding cards to its pool? I also am onboard with Eldariel about the reanimator logic. Reanimator decks are just fine in power level. I get beat by them often enough to respect them. You forget how influential this website is. The fact that they do not show up in high profile tournaments just means that they have not been perceived as powerful by, well, most the same people reading this sentence. So many decks. All of this is, of course, unnecessary disagreement if underlying all of it, you are somehow suggesting that by beefing up much of the rest of the field, Thresh would therefor be knocked down a rung or two. I think that might be pretty good since there is likely no other way to accomplish this.

As for Grim and Tabernacle going on the list, that is murky territory. I have my sets of both these cards, and I was filled with the same disgust I felt when I first learned that I was not going to be able to play my Iff-Biff, Green Ward, Spirit Link deck at my first type 2 tournament. So the cards aren't broken, just too old? Fuck that. I know you said expensive, but the sentiment is the same. You would have them kill Lands.dec - a deck that is tier 1.5 or so and popular - with a ban? I talked about this (http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html)right from the start. I do not think they can do what you are suggesting - not without it being broken. What then, about Juzam Djinn? Hell, I could make an argument for Illusionary Mask coming off the list. Perhaps it should be on the top of the heap of cards that can since nobody argues its power anymore.

And THIS is where I admit that Tacosnape is smarter than all of us.

[Nightmare]

Back to Sylvan just for a second - John Carter addressed this very issue with replacing different numbers of draws with dredge; this case is much more similar than Abundance:


Q:If I have a Sylvan Library in play and I choose to replace one or more of the draws with dredge, do I then pay 4 life for each card that I don't put back on top of my library? --Earl W.

A:If you draw any cards and use Sylvan Library, you'll have to put back or pay life. If you draw for the turn then dredge for the Sylvan and draw for the Sylvan, you'll have two cards you've drawn this turn-- put them back or pay. However, you could draw for the turn and dredge both the Sylvan draws and return or pay for only the one card. Or, if you have enough dredge in your graveyard and cards in your library, you could replace your regular draw and the Sylvan draws with three dredges and not have to pay anything.


At Finn - It's entirely possible I'm way off on the B&R change suggestions. I'm man enough to admit that. However, I'm of the attitude that the DCI should work with the banned list, and not be so overly cautious with it - there's an update every three months for a reason. If something that seems fair or even innocuous turns out to be broken, well, it's only gonna be that way for three months. In this format, that's nothing.

[Cavius The Great]

U/W Island Sanctuary control was one of the first competitive decks that I ever built. And that was eight years ago. There's really nothing new here, it's always been a decent card, but it just remained under the radar.

[Nightmare]

U/W Island Sanctuary control was one of the first competitive decks that I ever built. And that was eight years ago. There's really nothing new here, it's always been a decent card, but it just remained under the radar.Having seen it in exactly zero decks, or zero decklists since Mystic Decree made it Super Moat when that card was in STANDARD, I'd say it's safe to say this card was never really seen as a viable option in any control deck.

At best it was under the radar. The reality is, it wasn't even ON the radar. It's been a crap-rare since Alpha.

[Isamaru]

I pretty solidly disagree with just about all your conclusions on the B+R list though. I think your criteria for unbanning cards like Metalworker, Frantic Search, and Grim Monolith is flawed. Why should we be actively enabling decks through the B+R list? Why do we need High Tide combo to return? Why should we help Stax, which you actually said is already gaining ground, by adding cards to its pool?Very well said, I agree with this completely. I think Frantic Search, Monolith, and Metalworker are best left on the banned list.


All of this is, of course, unnecessary disagreement if underlying all of it, you are somehow suggesting that by beefing up much of the rest of the field, Thresh would therefor be knocked down a rung or two. I think that might be pretty good since there is likely no other way to accomplish this.For the same reason I agreed with you before, I disagree with you here: Unbanning or banning cards is not the fix-all solution for changing a metagame (exception: Hulk Flash)... almost every archetype (exception: Hulk Flash) has its foil, and I believe that Threshold (as we discussed in the other article's thread) is not impossible to get around. It is true that by beating Threshold you may lose to other decks, but not every deck has that problem. It is possible to design decks with goals in mind without using cards on the banned list... did everyone forget that?


Based on previous articles and interviews on the topic, it appears to me that any given Legacy player falls well within the scope of their definition of casual. The question is, will we see any of that money, in the form of structured support and attention from Wizards? The answer is likely "no." And really, it’s unfortunate. As I’ve said before, for a casual player walking into tournament Magic for the first time, Legacy truly is the natural starting point. For most kitchen table players making the big step up to tournament play, the ability to play with almost all of their cards far outweighs the possibility of losing to any perceived broken combo decks. Throwing some support to the format, in the form of an organized tournament structure similar to FNM for example, could go a long way toward increasing the interest in a format begging to be put in the spotlight. At the same time, giving the players of this format a genuine avenue in which to pursue Professional Magic would be a giant step for usI like this section of the article a lot - let's hope Wizards gets the message. :smile:

[Hoojo]

Great read. I enjoyed your Legacy bump when discussing casual players. Keeping your B/R discussion short was nice as you made your points clearly. A great article overall.

[Bovinious]

Also, don't gimme a crap about Drain being banned for price reason. Drain deserves banning, hardcore.

Umm...no it doesnt. The ONLY reason Drain is banned is because of its price tag, and as long as that policy is in place it should remain banned, but dont pretend its broken or otherwise banworthy...it really is not at all.

About the article...I lost a lot of respect for the author's knowledge of the format when Frantic Search was suggested to be UNbanned...this is one of the like 6-7 cards on our banned list Jack Elgin said was better than Flash while making an argument for Flashes banning...seriously that card would push High Tide decks over the top, hell it may enable some really fast Enchantress combo too.

Also, Island Sanctuary seems awful, since its basically dead without Jace or some constant draw.

In general though I agree with the message of the article, WOTC needs to stop being negligent and unabn cards, and I think even more can come off that you didnt mention. Also, they outta ban Tabernacle and Grim like suggested, or lift that price policy and unban Drain/Mask/Library (Shop and Bazaar should prolly stay for power reasons).

[Phantom]

As the biggest pusher of Moat in Legacy (at least of late) I don't see the logic on Island Sanctuary at all. You've turned a lock piece into a lock strategy that requires a more fragile combo of cards which are to some degree dead on their own. You've touted the speed over Moat, but required yourself to have a 2cc and 3cc permanant in play to use it (and it delays another turn) so i can't really see the speed advantage as I would guess that you would ramp up to 4 mana while digging for one of your three ofs (and really there is not enough dig in that list). Also, you've opened up the lockdown to all sorts of new hate since they can kill the enchantment or the walker, AND you are letting them draw into that hate (Grip, burn, Disks, counters, flyers, combo pieces, bounce) a lot faster. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you simply swapped out the Santuary's for Moats (and the Goyfs for Hoofprints or Enforcers or something), the list would be a lot stronger. At least that's what I'm seeing.

[Happy Gilmore]

Island Sanctuary + LFTL? Adding Cephelid Colliseums instead of cycling lands. Might be good.

[FoolofaTook]

Having seen it in exactly zero decks, or zero decklists since Mystic Decree made it Super Moat when that card was in STANDARD, I'd say it's safe to say this card was never really seen as a viable option in any control deck.

At best it was under the radar. The reality is, it wasn't even ON the radar. It's been a crap-rare since Alpha.

It was used in R/W decks for a period of time in the old meta when they were looking for something to handle white weenies before Pyroclasm became available. They used a similar idea to the one you want to use with Howling Mines to power it and also bring up their burn. The idea was to slap down a Island Sanctuary late and stall the creature damage just long enough for their burn, which had been ignoring critters to that point, to finish you.

The sideboard had Winter Orbs in it that got sided in against control when the Island Sanctuarys got boarded out. Black Vise was also in the deck.

[Nightmare]

Umm...no it doesnt. The ONLY reason Drain is banned is because of its price tag, and as long as that policy is in place it should remain banned, but dont pretend its broken or otherwise banworthy...it really is not at all.

About the article...I lost a lot of respect for the author's knowledge of the format when Frantic Search was suggested to be UNbanned...this is one of the like 6-7 cards on our banned list Jack Elgin said was better than Flash while making an argument for Flashes banning...seriously that card would push High Tide decks over the top, hell it may enable some really fast Enchantress combo too.

Also, Island Sanctuary seems awful, since its basically dead without Jace or some constant draw.

In general though I agree with the message of the article, WOTC needs to stop being negligent and unabn cards, and I think even more can come off that you didnt mention. Also, they outta ban Tabernacle and Grim like suggested, or lift that price policy and unban Drain/Mask/Library (Shop and Bazaar should prolly stay for power reasons).

This post is so full of wrong I don't even know where to begin.

:sigh:

Drain makes control literally the only viable archetype to play. You've obviously never tried to resolve a spell, only for it to be drained into hardcast Angel Tokens from Decree of Justice, or a Nevinyrral's Disk on turn 2, or a 3rd turn Mindslaver + activation. All of these are major reasons Mana Drain was banned. Price had very little to do with that specific card.

High tide, even with Frantic Search, still loses to Counterbalance. Enchantress and Faerie Stompy are considerations, though, which I addressed in the article. I don't believe it's so broken that we couldn't see it played, but as I said, I could be incorrect on this matter. Still, I'd rather see the format shaken for a few months than see it stagnate.

Island Sanctuary could very well be terrible. I see it as having potential.

[FoolofaTook]

Island Sanctuary could very well be terrible. I see it as having potential.

It's only going to be strong in two reasonable scenarios:

1. You find a permanent way to promote your own draw and not that of your opponent at the same time.

2. You find a locking mechanism where you do not have to draw cards to win.

The basic concept of Howling Mines + Jace Beleren to finish that is present in your deck might fit definition 2 if you dedicated the deck to quickly decking your opponent.

It might also get randomly destroyed by decks that did not depend at all on walkers.

[Nightmare]

As the biggest pusher of Moat in Legacy (at least of late) I don't see the logic on Island Sanctuary at all. You've turned a lock piece into a lock strategy that requires a more fragile combo of cards which are to some degree dead on their own. You've touted the speed over Moat, but required yourself to have a 2cc and 3cc permanant in play to use it (and it delays another turn) so i can't really see the speed advantage as I would guess that you would ramp up to 4 mana while digging for one of your three ofs (and really there is not enough dig in that list). Also, you've opened up the lockdown to all sorts of new hate since they can kill the enchantment or the walker, AND you are letting them draw into that hate (Grip, burn, Disks, counters, flyers, combo pieces, bounce) a lot faster. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you simply swapped out the Santuary's for Moats (and the Goyfs for Hoofprints or Enforcers or something), the list would be a lot stronger. At least that's what I'm seeing.I thought I addressed the benefits over Moat pretty well in the article. A) Mana cost, as no matter what point in the game you play it, it seems better to save the two mana. B) It creates an effect that stays even if they destroy it, which prevents the Grip->Alphastrike plan, and C) It still lets you attack.

[Bovinious]

This post is so full of wrong I don't even know where to begin.

:sigh:

Drain makes control literally the only viable archetype to play. You've obviously never tried to resolve a spell, only for it to be drained into hardcast Angel Tokens from Decree of Justice, or a Nevinyrral's Disk on turn 2, or a 3rd turn Mindslaver + activation. All of these are major reasons Mana Drain was banned. Price had very little to do with that specific card.

High tide, even with Frantic Search, still loses to Counterbalance. Enchantress and Faerie Stompy are considerations, though, which I addressed in the article. I don't believe it's so broken that we couldn't see it played, but as I said, I could be incorrect on this matter. Still, I'd rather see the format shaken for a few months than see it stagnate.

Island Sanctuary could very well be terrible. I see it as having potential.

What giant ass spells do you think people are casting on turn 2-3? You say that Drain will power out hardcasted (hell or even cycled...) DOJs and 10 mana slaver activations...which just isnt true at all, Hell maybe on turn 6 it will net control like 3-4 mana, but if control got that far into the game it likely was going to win anyways.

Counterbalance is still good against High Tide yes...but without Top it really would not be hard for High tide to win through a CB floating a CC that isnt 1, especially with 4 more untap and dig spells in one. Basically, the deck would be really good when your opponent doesnt have CounterTop, and we dont want an environment where everyone is forced to run it.

And yeah I appreciate you trying new things with Island Sanctuary and all, but yeah its probably just God-awful, id spring for a set of Moats if I was that worried about non-flying beats.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Why would we ban Tabernacle for price concerns, but not Goyf? Tabernacle is a legendary land that's in a small handful of decks. Goyf is an assumed playset in half the decks in the format, including what's regarded near-universally as the best deck.

So in summation, you need $200 to play with Goyf, and $200 to play with Tabernacle. But the former is necessary in many more decks; no one HAS to play 43 Lands. But your options without Goyf are few and not very appealing.

[Nightmare]

Goyf is $40. Tabernacle is $70. Grim Tutor is $125.

[DragoFireheart]

You can also buy a pack of Future Sight and pull a Goyf.

[Phantom]

I thought I addressed the benefits over Moat pretty well in the article. A) Mana cost, as no matter what point in the game you play it, it seems better to save the two mana. B) It creates an effect that stays even if they destroy it, which prevents the Grip->Alphastrike plan, and C) It still lets you attack.

I saw all that, I just completely disagree that any of these things make it worthwhile to turn a one card lock into a two card lock that also lets your opponent draw twice as many cards as you, and where one of the pieces is COMPLETE crap without the other (unlike say, CB + Top).



More in depth:

A) I'm all for cheaper cards, but not when they require other cards to be better than FoW pitches. Plus, your deck ramps to mid range mana easily and your counters don't cost any mana (except maybe to top with :1:).

B) Sanctuary does suffer from the opposite problem of not taking effect the first turn it's in play (or you draw + drop Jace). The alpha strike does happen, but having tested about a thousand Moat control games in the last month I can tell you it is not a huge concern. Using reusable flyers like Hoofprints tokens you can build up a defense for a few creatures forcing them to overextend into Wrath. There are also a ton of other ways around grip like CB, Mage, or my favorite which is 4 Moat plus a ton of filter and draw.

C) Meh. I think I'd rather win with flyers anyway. Splashing green just for Goyf seems entirely unnecessary, and winning on the ground seems a slow and tedious process, and one the opponent is not likely to scoop to since they can chump so much (oh, and they'll be drawing two cards a turn). White and blue alone offer a ton of great flying win cons (Hoof, Angel, E Dragon, Decree, Meluko, Sea Drake, Morphling, Pride). A splash can offer even more.

I might be wrong, but having tested Moat so much of late, I can guess with some confidence that I'm not. Maybe if there is a better way to supplement Sanctuary, I could get on board.

[Nightmare]

Most of what you said is correct, and I'll say with all honesty that I still don't know if Control is the correct deck to highlight IS, or at least, maybe not Blue control. I'm still working on some stuff using it, and it's entirely likely that the best use of it is in a deck that only splashes white. In such a situation, it's infinitely more splashable than the :w::w: needed for Moat. I'm simply glad that I've got people thinking about the card, since it's been dead in the water for years.

[FoolofaTook]

C) Meh. I think I'd rather win with flyers anyway. Splashing green just for Goyf seems entirely unnecessary, and winning on the ground seems a slow and tedious process, and one the opponent is not likely to scoop to since they can chump so much (oh, and they'll be drawing two cards a turn). White and blue alone offer a ton of great flying win cons (Hoof, Angel, E Dragon, Decree, Meluko, Sea Drake, Morphling, Pride). A splash can offer even more.

The other minor flaw in the reasoning behind putting value into Island Sanctuary's one-way protection against walkers is that if you need the protection you probably can't attack effectively anyway with your own walkers.

The real value, if it's there, is just in the ability to play Island Sanctuary early enough to stop mono-black or goblins in their tracks before they've obliterated you. Realistically you're not going to have the draw to fuel it at that point without a nuts draw so it pretty much balances into a meh card, which is what it looks like at first glance.

[Phantom]

Most of what you said is correct, and I'll say with all honesty that I still don't know if Control is the correct deck to highlight IS, or at least, maybe not Blue control. I'm still working on some stuff using it, and it's entirely likely that the best use of it is in a deck that only splashes white. In such a situation, it's infinitely more splashable than the :w::w: needed for Moat. I'm simply glad that I've got people thinking about the card, since it's been dead in the water for years.

I agree, and I do think the whole "flyers not being able to attack" strategy deserves a ton more attention (maybe by honoring the CaND entry that ran it...lol) since SO many decks across all archetypes are winning that way. My only issue is how difficult Sanctuary is to abuse. The only card in legacy I can think of off the top of my head that is near as narrow is Standstill, which has a huge amount of the deck dedicated and synegized with it. If there was a build like that out there with Sanctuary, I would be more inclined to give a thought.

[Nightmare]

I agree, and I do think the whole "flyers not being able to attack" strategy deserves a ton more attention (maybe by honoring the CaND entry that ran it...lol) since SO many decks across all archetypes are winning that way. My only issue is how difficult Sanctuary is to abuse. The only card in legacy I can think of off the top of my head that is near as narrow is Standstill, which has a huge amount of the deck dedicated and synegized with it. If there was a build like that out there with Sanctuary, I would be more inclined to give a thought.I'm working on it :wink:

[AnwarA101]

Goyf is $40. Tabernacle is $70. Grim Tutor is $125.

The issue of cost is an interesting one. We have no idea what Wizards standard for something that costs too much. But if cost and accessibility are a real issue then they should consider getting rid of some of the more expensive cards. The problem is that I think Goyf is very close to being on that list. Goyf costs too much especially for a card that isn't narrow. By comparison, Force of Will is a very prevalent card that was printed over 10 years ago and its only 25 dollars. Is paying 160 not too much for a playset but somehow 280 is? Maybe you only need 3 Tabernacles that is only 210? What's the line? If you are worried about cost, I think you have to consider Tarmogoyf to be a barrier to playing competitive Legacy.

[Zach Tartell]

The issue of cost is an interesting one. We have no idea what Wizards standard for something that costs too much. But if cost and accessibility are a real issue then they should consider getting rid of some of the more expensive cards. The problem is that I think Goyf is very close to being on that list. Goyf costs too much especially for a card that isn't narrow. By comparison, Force of Will is a very prevalent card that was printed over 10 years ago and its only 25 dollars. Is paying 160 not too much for a playset but somehow 280 is? Maybe you only need 3 Tabernacles that is only 210? What's the line? If you are worried about cost, I think you have to consider Tarmogoyf to be a barrier to playing competitive Legacy.

If you don't want to shell out $160 on four goyfs then pick up TES or something. That's 1) a viable deck, 2) costs, entirely, less than four Tarmogyfs, and 3) scarier to sit across from than Thresh, I think.

Or play belcher, which is even cheaper (you could probably buy the whole deck for ~ $70 bucks, which is mostly the cost of a Bayou, a Taiga, and 3 LED's. Problem is that it sucks to blue more.

In the end, you don't have to run Tarmogoyf. There are pleanty of other, slightly worse cards, and many (conditionally) better ones.

[C.P.]

What giant ass spells do you think people are casting on turn 2-3? You say that Drain will power out hardcasted (hell or even cycled...) DOJs and 10 mana slaver activations...which just isnt true at all, Hell maybe on turn 6 it will net control like 3-4 mana, but if control got that far into the game it likely was going to win anyways.

We are allowed to play 4 Fact or Fiction and 4 Gifts Ungiven, right?
Why would you bother with Mindslaver or other craps? Hell, even dropping the Shackles and activate it a turn earlier is going to be better than any of those.

EDIT:

@ goyf

This is not some obscure old card that you need to look all the way to be able to even find one. Goyf can be cracked from a pack and any serious Type 2 players have a playset. It may cost more than some of the other expensive staple, but the fact would be that the goyf is just easier to get than say, Moat or Tabernacle.

[AnwarA101]

If you don't want to shell out $160 on four goyfs then pick up TES or something. That's 1) a viable deck, 2) costs, entirely, less than four Tarmogyfs, and 3) scarier to sit across from than Thresh, I think.

Or play belcher, which is even cheaper (you could probably buy the whole deck for ~ $70 bucks, which is mostly the cost of a Bayou, a Taiga, and 3 LED's. Problem is that it sucks to blue more.

In the end, you don't have to run Tarmogoyf. There are pleanty of other, slightly worse cards, and many (conditionally) better ones.

I wasn't saying that you have to play Tarmogoyf. I was only pointing out that his cost makes him less accessible. If Wizards is worried about cost and accessibility they have to consider something like Tarmogoyf along with the other cards. I'm not really sure how much we should consider price, but it has to be some factor. If Force of Will cost 100 dollars a piece I think most of us might be playing Belcher.

[Dilettante]

If you don't want to shell out $160 on four goyfs then pick up TES or something. That's 1) a viable deck, 2) costs, entirely, less than four Tarmogyfs, and 3) scarier to sit across from than Thresh, I think.

Or play belcher, which is even cheaper (you could probably buy the whole deck for ~ $70 bucks, which is mostly the cost of a Bayou, a Taiga, and 3 LED's. Problem is that it sucks to blue more.

In the end, you don't have to run Tarmogoyf. There are pleanty of other, slightly worse cards, and many (conditionally) better ones.

I'm afraid TES has gone up a bit in cost from when it was created a year ago... Playsets of just Burning Wish ($32) + Lion's Eye Diamond ($60) + Orim's Chant ($80) will set you back as much as a playset of Tarmogoyfs.

Here's something just thrown together to look at a possibility of Island Sanctuary... Not necessarily a viable deck, just something to look at possible card interactions. Yes, I've been looking at Chains too long recently.

4x Bitterblossom
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Replenish
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize/Duress
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Leyline of the Meek
4x Island Sanctuary
4x Chains of Mephistopheles

4x Chrome Mox
4x Anvil of Bogardan

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scrubland
4x Plains
4x Swamp

[Barook]

You can also buy a pack of Future Sight and pull a Goyf.

And for this very reason, Goyf won't be banned anywhere as long as it is legal in Type 2. Jitte was far more format-warping in T2 and it was never hit by the banhammer (although it deserved it), simply because Wizards made loads of money with Betrayers Preconstructed boxes. And I read somewhere that Future Sight didn't sell that well (oh well, at that time, Goyf was still below 20$).

And I can't agree on banning cards for cost reasons. Cards should be banned if they unbalance the format too much. Neither Tabernacle nor Grim Tutor do that. Sure, they're nice cards, but I don't think that they're underused due to cost reasons, but more for being niche cards.

[etrigan]

The issue of cost is an interesting one. We have no idea what Wizards standard for something that costs too much. But if cost and accessibility are a real issue then they should consider getting rid of some of the more expensive cards. The problem is that I think Goyf is very close to being on that list. Goyf costs too much especially for a card that isn't narrow. By comparison, Force of Will is a very prevalent card that was printed over 10 years ago and its only 25 dollars. Is paying 160 not too much for a playset but somehow 280 is? Maybe you only need 3 Tabernacles that is only 210? What's the line? If you are worried about cost, I think you have to consider Tarmogoyf to be a barrier to playing competitive Legacy.


Think 5 years from now. How much will FoW be worth? How much will duals be worth? How much will fetchlands be worth?

Are we prepared to see these cards leave the format because of cost alone? What if cards essentially rotated out every few years because of price concerns? Isn't that one of the reasons we chose Legacy, because it doesn't rotate?

Banning cards based on cost = Stupid.

(That said, there are power-level reasons for keeping Mana Drain, Illusionary Mask and Bazaar of Baghdad banned. Tabernacle and Tarmogoyf dont approach this power-level. Grim Tutor might, but I dont know enough about it.)

[freakish777]

The ONLY reason Drain is banned is because of its price tag

Dear Wizards,

Please unban Mana Drain so I can Drain into Disk and FoF on turn 3. I will love you forever and ever Amen.

Signed,
- Landstill

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Think 5 years from now. How much will FoW be worth? How much will duals be worth? How much will fetchlands be worth?This is, or will be, a problem with Legacy and Vintage. There is a diminishing, finite amount of essentials. Some day there may not be any accessible Forces, power, or duals. The only way that this can be remedied is by reprinting them. This brings up other issues, as the value of existing essentials could plummet, resulting in a lot of angry collectors.

[Bryant Cook]

Dear Wizards,

Please unban Mana Drain so I can Drain into Disk and FoF on turn 3. I will love you forever and ever Amen.

Signed,
- Landstill

Forget that, Mana Drain on Force of Will, then Skeletal Scrying for 5. OMG, I'm now wet in the pants.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm afraid TES has gone up a bit in cost from when it was created a year ago... Playsets of just Burning Wish ($32) + Lion's Eye Diamond ($60) + Orim's Chant ($80) will set you back as much as a playset of Tarmogoyfs.

Here's something just thrown together to look at a possibility of Island Sanctuary... Not necessarily a viable deck, just something to look at possible card interactions. Yes, I've been looking at Chains too long recently.

4x Bitterblossom
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Replenish
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize/Duress
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Leyline of the Meek
4x Island Sanctuary
4x Chains of Mephistopheles

4x Chrome Mox
4x Anvil of Bogardan

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scrubland
4x Plains
4x Swamp

The other kind of deck that Island Sanctuary might be playable in would be something like this:

4x Hoofprints of The Stag
4x Howling Mine
3x Relic Barrier
2x Winter Orb
2x Island Sanctuary
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Counterspell
2x Echoing Truth
2x Wrath of God
4x Brainstorm
3x Jace Beleren
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
3x Plains

Sideboard

4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
2x Moat
2x Ivory Mask
2x Back to Basics
2x Engineered Explosives

You'd basically be looking to kill your opponent either by decking them or with elementals and you'd be using Howling Mine/Relic Barrier whenever you saw it and Winter Orb selectively when you ran into Landstill or somebody else with a higher mana curve than is wise. The decking mechanism of last resort, instead of Academy Ruins, would be Island Sanctuary, tap my Howling mine with Relic Barrier, decline to draw. And Jace Beleren of course.

You'd pull what you needed from the sideboard and side out the marginal cards that were ineffective against a particular deck. For instance, Winter Orb could be pulled for Back to Basics, Island Sanctuary could be pulled for Moat, just about any non-core spell could be pulled for Ivory Mask when that became important. Counterbalance/Top would come in when you felt it was going to dominate a deck in game 2.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

Wizards said, in a nutshell, that the money they are potentially saving from the elimination of a PT, the decrease in payout, and the reorganization of Club levels would be redistributed into a grassroots campaign to increase the attraction of the game to the casual market.

I really can't fault Wizards for doing this. I draw parallels to this from a company that chooses to reinvest its earnings into the company rather than pay those earnings in dividends to the stockholders. Wizards wants to grow and increase its influence gamers that operate outside of the tournament. They chose to use their own money to expand their influence rather than offer a pro tour and money to its participants.

[FoolofaTook]

I really can't fault Wizards for doing this. I draw parallels to this from a company that chooses to reinvest its earnings into the company rather than pay those earnings in dividends to the stockholders. Wizards wants to grow and increase its influence gamers that operate outside of the tournament. They chose to use their own money to expand their influence rather than offer a pro tour and money to its participants.

They never should have run a Pro Tour in the first place. Magic was doing just fine on it's own, with the DCI for rulings and very little else.

[Nightmare]

I really can't fault Wizards for doing this. I draw parallels to this from a company that chooses to reinvest its earnings into the company rather than pay those earnings in dividends to the stockholders. Wizards wants to grow and increase its influence gamers that operate outside of the tournament. They chose to use their own money to expand their influence rather than offer a pro tour and money to its participants.
I don't particularly blame them for choosing to do it, either, although I'm concerned of the ramifications of that decision. If they do it correctly, and the casual market picks up even more, then so be it, a successful campaign is run. Wizards could just as easily botch it, and that would be disastrous. Really, I'd love to see Legacy get some real support as I said, with the potential for a Legacy-based avenue to professional play. I think this would both interest more pros in the format, and make more aspiring players look to Legacy as a legitimate format. Not only that, but you'd be providing the casual player - whom I still believe is more often a Legacy player in casual garb than not - a true look at the power of the cards they know, and let them see a true correlation between their kitchen table games and the "big show."

[AnwarA101]

Think 5 years from now. How much will FoW be worth? How much will duals be worth? How much will fetchlands be worth?

Are we prepared to see these cards leave the format because of cost alone? What if cards essentially rotated out every few years because of price concerns? Isn't that one of the reasons we chose Legacy, because it doesn't rotate?

Banning cards based on cost = Stupid.

(That said, there are power-level reasons for keeping Mana Drain, Illusionary Mask and Bazaar of Baghdad banned. Tabernacle and Tarmogoyf
dont approach this power-level. Grim Tutor might, but I dont enough about it.)

Its been 12 years since Force of Will has been printed and its about 25 dollars that isn't a bad ratio. In 5 years it might be 30 dollars. Duals have been around longer than Force of Will and cost a little more but not overwhelmingly more. Fetchlands are much lower than both of these and their costs are not likely to skyrocket.

I'm not advocating using price as a primary factor, but it seems to be a consideration. Tarmogoyf costs more than Force of Will and Dual Lands and its not even 1 year old. That is pretty shocking no matter how you split it.

I think Wizards did some work in putting together the ban list together and unless something has to be done (Flash being the only example) they have no real incentive to change what they setup in the first place. Its more inertia than anything else. So while discussion of the ban list is interesting its more than likely not going to change anytime soon.

[mujadaddy]

the casual player - whom I still believe is more often a Legacy player in casual garb than notOr, depending on their "MTG age", Vintage.

[Wallace]

Great Read, nicely done Adam...I just have to point something out though, you said the Island Sanctuary would protect Jace, I think this is un-true...

Island Sanctuary reads:

If you would draw a card during your draw step, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, until your next turn, you can't be attacked except by creatures with flying and/or islandwalk.

Your opponent will still be able to attack Jace. I had the same problem playing Turbo Fog in standard. Chronomantic Escape reads the same way... Great article though, I would love to see Frantic search and Grim Monolith unbanned, I used to love playing with both of them.

[Wallace]

Here, I'll solve this Sanctuary crap now. From the FAQ:
As the declare attackers step begins, if the defending player controls a planeswalker, the active player declares who or what each attacking creature is attacking: the defending player or one of that player's planeswalkers. All the attacking creatures may attack the same thing, or they may attack different things. If the defending player controls multiple planeswalkers, any or all of them can be attacked during the same combat phase.

It says that you have to BE ABLE TO ATTACK THEM. There. Then, as we all know Island Sanctuary says "You can't be attacked...". So there. Done.

Where does it say that? I don't see "BE ABLE TO ATTACK THEM" anywhere in that FAQ...

[Wallace]

When the declare attackers step starts, you have to choose a defending player. However, he can't be attacked. Only if you are able to attack them are you given the option of attacking the planeswalker. Seems to me that's reasonably clear.

I don't see where it says that if creatures can't attack you that you still can't be chosen as the defending player? It says:

As the declare attackers step begins, if the defending player controls a planeswalker, the active player declares who or what each attacking creature is attacking, the defending player or one of that player's planeswalkers...

So I choose the walker, because the player can't be attacked. I will post this over in the Rules section and see what happens over there...

[Dilettante]

Does not look like the case at all from the comprehensive rules...

"308.1. As the declare attackers step begins, the active player declares attackers. This game action doesn’t use the stack. If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, he or she declares which player or planeswalker each creature is attacking. Effects from a creature that refer to a defending player refer only to the defending player it’s attacking (if it’s attacking a player) or the controller of the planeswalker it’s attacking (if it’s attacking a planeswalker). Then any abilities that triggered on attackers being declared go on the stack. (See rule 410, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.

308.2. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration was illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 422, “Handling Illegal Actions,” and rule 500, “Legal Attacks and Blocks”).

308.2a The active player chooses which creatures that he or she controls, if any, will attack. The chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled by the active player continuously since the beginning of the turn. For each of the chosen creatures, the active player chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent for that creature to attack. Then he or she determines whether this set of attackers is legal. (See rule 500, “Legal Attacks and Blocks.”)"

308.2a clearly states that for each creature, "the active player chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent for that creature to attack". It's like playing a game of multiplayer skirmish and the Planeswalker is just another optional player. Also, 308.1 separates 'church and state' how Planeswalkers and Players are kept separate. Therefore, Planeswalkers are not afforded protections by Island Sanctuary.

[Fred Bear]

I have to agree with the 'price'-banning discussion presented here, WOTC needs to either abandon the 'price' bannings or stick to their guns and set a price-point above which a card banned. Personally, I believe that they are leaving it open to where they will eventually split Legacy into two formats - Legacy and Legacy-lite - one with no cost-prohibitive list and one with a cost-prohibitive banned list respectively. This seems to make the most sense for them with the upcoming Extended rotation which will leave even more players with IPA, OTJ, and OLS cards which are no longer 'playable'.

To use a common example - Illusionary Mask (NM/M Unlimited = $100 @ Starcity) allows the 'infamous' MaskNought combo for 3 mana (2 card combo, no color requirement) - BANNED IN LEGACY. With the 'fixed' wording on Phyrexian Dreadnought, you can land 'Nought on turn 2 with a Stifle or Vision Charm (2 card combo, blue color requirement) - OK IN LEGACY. I would argue that this shows Illusionary Mask is probably not worthy of a ban by 'power-level' arguments (it also doesn't appear to be broken in Vintage without restriction). It is (would be) good since it doesn't give you a color restriction, but it's not obvious that it would be better than using blue (protection/draw) around it. I would have to say Mask is banned based on price tag. Grim Tutor (NM/M Starter 1999 = $150 @ Starcity) is completely legal. I believe that Grim Tutor is 'fair' for what it costs and does. With the power level of the cards it can fetch, I don't think it's 'broken' or necessarily worthy of a ban, but if $100 is too high a price tag for a playable (but probably not overpowered) card, $150 has to recieve the ban-hammer.

And just to comment on the Mana Drain discussion... What spells in Legacy are you Draining into big mana the following turn?!!? Draining 90% of the spells in the format will net you like 2 more mana the following turn. In a format without a lot of fast artifact mana (i.e. Legacy not Vintage), the only spell worth Draining for the kick is Force of Will. This would give you a Slaver play and activation on turn 5/6 at the earliest (assuming you hit your first 5 land drops and further assuming that your opponent tries to Force a spell through your counter magic the previous turn putting them most likely on some kind of a turn 4/5 combo deck I guess?). If your 'assumption' is that Drain automatically warps the format into Vintage Jr., I guess that might be reasonable, but I don't think that's necessarily a justified assumption. And without that assumption, you are talking about a counter spell that costs UU and nets you 1-3 colorless mana to play with the following turn. That's definitely solid and, of course, playable, but I don't necessarily think it's format warping, especially when a lot of the cards you want to counter can land before you'd even have Drain mana up ('Goyf, Counterbalance/Top, etc.). I'm obviously not delving into all the design space open to a Drain deck like that in the format. Gifts, FoF, etc. could all be explored, but I'm by no means convinced that you would build a format-warping deck 'relying' on a Drain-kick. You would likely wind up with a deck built with a bunch of expensive cards with no way to play them 'unfairly' most of the time. I don't argue that Drain isn't good, just that it is probably on the list more for price tag (NM/M Foreign Legends = $100 @ Starcity) than power level.

As with any discussion of the BR list, it's all personal opinion and interpretation of where someone else (WOTC) thinks the format should go. Each card on the list could come off and open up some very interesting design space, but at what cost to the format?

Fred Bear...

[Wallace]

308.2a clearly states that for each creature, "the active player chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent for that creature to attack". It's like playing a game of multiplayer skirmish and the Planeswalker is just another optional player. Also, 308.1 separates 'church and state' how Planeswalkers and Players are kept separate. Therefore, Planeswalkers are not afforded protections by Island Sanctuary.


Thank you for posting that, I though I was right...

[FoolofaTook]

I have to agree with the 'price'-banning discussion presented here, WOTC needs to either abandon the 'price' bannings or stick to their guns and set a price-point above which a card banned

Or they could just print relatively cheap hosers for the pricy power cards and control the power level in the Legacy meta that way. I never understood why they stopped reprinting dual-lands in the first place from a competitive standpoint. Blood Moon made dual-rich decks very unhappy and Back to Basics was in the pipeline. That means the only incentive for WoTC to not reprint dual-lands was so they could print a ton of crappy multi-color lands and get people to buy them. And of course the only way to do that was to rotate the main format every year or two, so...

WoTC is responsible for their own mess here.

[Dilettante]

Or they could just print relatively cheap hosers for the pricy power cards and control the power level in the Legacy meta that way.

Ex: See Chalice of the Void, Stifle, Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt...

[FoolofaTook]

Ex: See Chalice of the Void, Stifle, Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt...

Yep and Krosan Grip and Leylines of the Void and Pithing Needle.

WoTC looked at the effect of real scarcity on early Magic and the growth of Magic and then they created artificial scarcity thereafter to try to keep things booming. They'd have been better off just to recognize the early errors and cut those out (and dual-lands are not one of those errors as anybody who has been rolled by mono-black or goblins or a dual-land hoser is aware) and maintain continual periodic access to the rest of the cards in play.

There are so many people who might have been excited by the kind of Magic meta that sucked all the early adapters in (talking adults here not 11 year olds) who recognize a rigged game when they see it and won't touch Magic with a 10 foot pole. Hell, I have very little success in talking my old friends into rejoining the Legacy meta. Their eyes light up when we talk about what was and then the reality that they sold their cards settles in and that's it, another potential player locked out.

[Deep6er]

Fair enough. I should have gone digging through the comprehensive rules. Unfortunately, I only had the FAQ's to look through. Sorry about that.

[freakish777]

What spells in Legacy are you Draining into big mana the following turn?!!? Draining 90% of the spells in the format will net you like 2 more mana the following turn.

You don't really need more than 2 or maybe 3 mana off of a Mana Drain for it to be retarded.

Drain your Goyf, untap play FoF for 1U.
Drain your Counterbalance, untap play Nev's Disk for 2.
Drain your Burning Wish, untap Trinket Mage up SDT/Tormod's/Explosives for U
Drain your Survival, untap play SDT and activate it for free.
Drain first turn Ponder, untap play Standstill for U, and keep mana open for Drain/Counterspell number 2
Drain your Dark Confidant, untap play Crucible of Worlds for 1.
Drain your Goblin Piledriver, untap play Thirst of Knowledge for U.

Want to get to the truly absurd?

Drain your Sea Drake/Terravore/Magus of the Moon/Trinisphere other 3cc card...

Fact or Fiction
U
Sorcery
Reveal the top 5 cards of your library, and opponent splits them into 2 piles. You choose one pile, that pile goes to your hand, the other pile goes to your graveyard.

Crucible of Worlds
0
Artifact
You may lands from your graveyard.

Trinket Mage
U
Creature
When Trinket Mage comes into play, search your library for a 1cc artifact and put it into play.
2/2

Morphling@UU/Meloku@1U...


Yeah... Those are fair....

Let me revise my statement to the Metagame being Landstill, Mono-Blue Control, and Ichorid. Anything that relies on resolving spells will be outclassed. If Dark Ritual had a Duress attached to it, there would be no reason for anyone to not play that spell. That's essentially what Mana Drain is.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Goyf is $40. Tabernacle is $70. Grim Tutor is $125.

But you need twice as many Goyfs as you do Tabernacles, if you run it, and it appears in way fewer decks.

[hi-val]

I seem to remember a deck played in Grand Prix: Shandalar that used Millstone and Island Sanctuary. I always beat the guy since the AI was awful about when to use IS but at least someone put that combo together from the early days of Magic...

[mercenarybdu]

You have some really bad ideas on that article upon what to take off and put onto that list.

Metal Worker is on there since the release of Mirrodin to the general public, that Block has busted the hell out of it. If that were to be taken off then we could see Turn 1 of that card then turn 2 would be revealing a dozen artifact cards with Processor out complete with Voltaic Key paying a large amount of life for mammoths. Then little time to clear the board.

Gorger might not have a Bazzar to go off but it is still a bad move to take it off.

Monolith I'm iffy about that one.

Land Tax Should stay for the reasons of why it's already on there.

Frantic Search could come off as there appears to be not too much going around for it to stay.

More or less I don't want to see Gorger, Metal Worker and Land Tax to step out of that list that our resident wrote up in his view.

[C.P.]

I'm not sure why some people thinks Metalworker > Monolith

It is evident that Monolith can be used in more decks, and more durable. While Metalworker is pretty goddamn swingy card in right decks, is it more swingy than Goblin Lackey? they share few things.

1. They are essentially savage mana cheat.
2. Both are creatures, usually can be dealt with most common removals in the format.
3. Both give a turn to the opponents to deal with.
4. Your deck has to be built around with both cards.

I really don't think the worker is more broken than the Lackey, even with all the broken things that the worker can do. How scary is the Processor without the worker? Goblin Ringleader or Siege-gang Commander seems pretty scary, even by itself.

I'm not sure if I wanna advocate the unbanning of the worker, but my bottom line is that Worker is much more safe to unban than monolith. Let's not forget that we have 4 voltaic keys and 4 3shphers waiting to be abused with the monolith, and 8 2 mana lands that can pump it out on turn 1.

[Cavius The Great]

Having seen it in exactly zero decks, or zero decklists since Mystic Decree made it Super Moat when that card was in STANDARD, I'd say it's safe to say this card was never really seen as a viable option in any control deck.

At best it was under the radar. The reality is, it wasn't even ON the radar. It's been a crap-rare since Alpha.

U/W Island Sanctuary was popular back in the day. The combo was Howling Mine back then. I don't know where you're getting your information but the card has definitely seen the light of day.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I agree with Adam in regards to his stance on banning expensive cards, and I thought the specific examples were spot on. However, I give wizards or whoever is in change a little credit as there is are a few grey areas in the secondary market, that do not effect legacy, due to collectors. For example, Zodiac Dragon is an awful, awful card, but its value is relatively high in the secondary market. If there is ever a broken combo involving it then it would be banned right away for the price reasons. Same thing with Juzam Djinn but to a lesser extent. However, if they banned those cards due to price the B/R list would look asinine. Because nobody cards about ZD, and it has no business in a legacy deck, the banned list doesnt care either. In the case of Grim Tutor, perhaps they didnt feel that it effected legacy because it saw little play in the past (and it saw little play due to expense). Now that people are picking it up (Grim Iggy, Fetchland Tendrils, etc) it is now an issue and should be dealt with.

[Bardo]

I'm going to cross-reference my SCG post here, since it will generate better discussion over here.

///

I really enjoyed this article. It wasn't too deep or anything, but it was well-written and adds a nice voice to the format. Well done.

I'm pretty adverse to B&R discussion, but there are two points I need to refute here:


#1. On – The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

... At the time of the format change, it was made explicitly clear that secondary market prices were a legitimate factor in deciding if a card was to be banned or not. The classic example of this is Illusionary Mask. It was approximately $80 for an Unlimited Mask in 2004, and English Tabernacles are rapidly approaching this value. ... They probably should be banned.

#2. On - Grim Tutor

Wrong. I've said this before, but I'll be happy to bring this up wherever this discussion crops up: there is no policy on banning expensive cards in Legacy, and due solely to prohibitive cost, contrary to popular opinion on the topic. And WOTC can't violate a policy that doesn't exist.

Illusionary Mask is banned because it's powerful, has very complex rules issues (e.g. compare the Oracle wording with the text on the card) and expensive.

Most people vaguely recall this article by Forsythe in the Sept 3, 2004 B&R Update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af30)

An excerpt:


"But with the impending rotation of the Extended format next year, we felt the need to make sure there was a reasonable format available where players could use their old cards (everything from dual lands to Ice Age cards to Rebels) that was not just a toned-down version of Vintage. We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play.

...

What's on [The List]:

Ante cards and dexterity cards: ....

The Power Nine and other cards that are restricted in Vintage on their own merits: ....

Dominant cards that have been considered for restriction in Vintage: ....

Cards that are/were banned in Extended: ...."

And that's it. Nowhere does Wizards explicitly state: "we ban cards because they're expensive." Cards may be banned because they're powerful and expensive, but not just expensive. If the latter is the case, it's never been explicitly stated as policy. If I'm wrong, let me know.

Otherwise, good article. Nice work.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Nowhere does Wizards explicitly state: "we ban cards because they're expensive." Cards may be banned because they're powerful and expensive, but not just expensive. If the latter is the case, it's never been explicitly stated as policy. If I'm wrong, let me know.

This may be true and is a good point. I still agree with Adam though, in the end, because I feel that Grim Tutor and Tabernacle both fulfill the expensive and powerful (Ill loosely define powerful as good enough to see successful legacy play) parts of the equation. If those cards are a fixture of the game and are unattainable because of monetary value then it tilts the playing field (further) in the direction of those with more resources.

EDIT: I might also be for banning Rolling Earthquake. Not necessarily because of excessive expense but because I think it's dumb that you can make your Earthquakes (Alpha) hit fliers too because you spent 30 bucks more a piece. Horsemanship is the stupidest idea ever.

[Michael Keller]

I loved Adam's article and I thought he addressed some very critical issues surrounding the format. However...


...the card has definitely seen the light of day.

...it's better to wait and see how it fares in a tournament setting or a larger scale event than assuming it is that good. I, however, think it will be very good and will work just fine. Most people don't give underused cards a chance just because they collect dust in a commons bin - even when they're rares.

Island Sanctuary just became the Ron Paul of Legacy.

[Pinder]

Most people vaguely recall this article by Forsythe in the Sept 3, 2004 B&R Update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af30)


Oh man, this is totally off topic, but that article reminded me of the contest they had to name "Type 1.5". I finally found the poll, and also found it hilarious to look back at which ones made it into the top ten:



Ageless
Comprehensive
Enduring
Heritage
Legacy
Mosaic
Renaissance
Throwback
Timeless
Traditional


Dear God, I'm glad we chose Legacy. Can you imagine "The Source: Your source for Throwback?"

:laugh:

[Phantom]

Dear God, I'm glad we chose Legacy. Can you imagine "The Source: Your source for Throwback?"
:laugh:

No, but Mosaic would have been BAD ASS.

[Hightower]

Haha awesome find :)

I personally think "Traditional" would've fit good! Listen:

Limited
Standard
Extended
Traditional
Vintage <- (abit meh perhaps compared to the others)

but maybe Standard and Traditional was too similar..

/even more Off-topic

We should make a poll (and maybe exclude the name "Legacy") to see what people in here would vote for now, in 2008

[TrialByFire]

Just for reference, I am sick and tired of people's whiny bitching about Goyf. Its not going to get banned, get over it. It does not cost too much, get over it. It is in an in-print set that you can buy packs of for 3.99. Get over it. If you don't have them by now, you're a failure anyways, and you should get over it. And if you don't like playing gainst Goyf, I suggest you get over it. Or don't play Legacy. Because Goyf isn't going anywhere. Ever.

[insertnamehere]

Just for reference, I am sick and tired of people's whiny bitching about Goyf. Its not going to get banned, get over it. It does not cost too much, get over it. It is in an in-print set that you can buy packs of for 3.99. Get over it. If you don't have them by now, you're a failure anyways, and you should get over it. And if you don't like playing gainst Goyf, I suggest you get over it. Or don't play Legacy. Because Goyf isn't going anywhere. Ever.

I don't know what you are talking about, I had to pay $2.00 a piece for mine PLUS SHIPPING. Don't you just love a bargain.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't know what you are talking about, I had to pay $2.00 a piece for mine PLUS SHIPPING. Don't you just love a bargain.

Aside from buying packs/trading/winning packs in tournaments, I have never spent a dime on a Goyf.

I have gotten 6 total, kept 4 and traded the other 2 away.

[Bardo]

Dear God, I'm glad we chose Legacy. Can you imagine "The Source: Your source for Throwback?"

:laugh:

FWIW, I voted for Heritage. :)

[Wallace]

FWIW, I voted for Heritage. :)

Same here...

[Bovinious]

FWIW, I voted for Heritage. :)

I voted for Ron Paul!

But really, Traditional would have been a tight name, a bit better than Legacy prolly, the rest of those choices suck arse.

[ForceofWill]

In theory Traditional would have been a better name but I just don't like the sound of I'm going to a Traditional tournie on Saturday.

[Getsickanddie]

Island Sanctuary just became the Ron Paul of Legacy.

Wait a second.

So are you saying Island Sanctuary wants to keep Mexicans and Homosexuals out of Legacy?

This doesn't bode well for Calosso.

[etrigan]

But you need twice as many Goyfs as you do Tabernacles, if you run it, and it appears in way fewer decks.

None of which compare to running a playset of Illusionary Masks, which is going to run you around 600$.

[goobafish]

None of which compare to running a playset of Illusionary Masks, which is going to run you around 600$.

By $600 do you mean $200?

[C.P.]

Dear God, I'm glad we chose Legacy. Can you imagine "The Source: Your source for Throwback?"

:laugh:

I remember voting for legacy, thinking that was only normal name they have got. Even traditional really does not sound like a format in a card game. lol, like

'Hey, I'm a serious Traditional Player. Traditional is the best.'

Comprehensive sounds awful lot of fun, too.

[Hightower]

Like "Hey, I'm a serious Standard Player. Standard is the best.' sounds any better? :P

- what/which Standard???

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

None of which compare to running a playset of Illusionary Masks, which is going to run you around 600$.

A little under $400. But again there's the question of flexibility. Mask isn't flexible. It goes in one deck.


Just for reference, I am sick and tired of people's whiny bitching about Goyf. Its not going to get banned, get over it. It does not cost too much, get over it. It is in an in-print set that you can buy packs of for 3.99. Get over it. If you don't have them by now, you're a failure anyways, and you should get over it. And if you don't like playing gainst Goyf, I suggest you get over it. Or don't play Legacy. Because Goyf isn't going anywhere. Ever.

You reference things people care about. One idiot's vitriolic opinion is not something people care about.

These aren't arguments you're making. These are just childish repetitions of the same sentiment stretched out to make you feel like you've Saved Teh Interwebz with your l33t fl4m1ng sk1llz.

There are 60 rares in Future Sight. That means you'll get a Goyf in about 1 in every 60 packs. That means you'll get a playset in about 240 packs. That's about $600 for 7 boxes. That's not a counter-argument.

And your argument that "ushould allr eady h4v3 sum l0lz!" doesn't address the concern that accessibility raises; format growth. The people who owned Masks weren't hurt by their price, but the theory was that it created a price barrier to true competitiveness in the format, and that turned off potential players. If this theory applies to any card currently in the format, it's Goyf rather than Tabernacle.

[Finn]

I've said this before, but I'll be happy to bring this up wherever this discussion crops up: there is no policy on banning expensive cards in Legacy, and due solely to prohibitive cost, contrary to popular opinion on the topic. I thought this was the case as well. But then I just figured I had missed the part about secondary market value being a reason to ban (or perhaps not to unban) a card. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I will be very pissed if Wizards is stupid enough to go and ban something like Tabernacle when Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial are legal.


In the case of Grim Tutor, perhaps they didnt feel that it effected legacy because it saw little play in the past (and it saw little play due to expense).Well, it saw no play at all. It had never been legal in any competitive format before 2005. I am pretty sure they just made a list of the tutors from the Portal and Starer sets and drew a line. All broke-ass ones on the ban side, all slow ones on the OK side.


And your argument that "ushould allr eady h4v3 sum l0lz!" doesn't address the concern that accessibility raises; format growth. The people who owned Masks weren't hurt by their price, but the theory was that it created a price barrier to true competitiveness in the format, and that turned off potential players. If this theory applies to any card currently in the format, it's Goyf rather than Tabernacle.Since Tarmogoyf is ubiquitous throughout the formats, you could make the same argument for gasoline or even virgins. Their scarcity and high price make it harder to enjoy Legacy.

[The Wes]

Umm, a lack of virgins at mtg events has never been a problem.

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

AThere are 60 rares in Future Sight. That means you'll get a Goyf in about 1 in every 60 packs. That means you'll get a playset in about 240 packs. That's about $600 for 7 boxes. That's not a counter-argument.


Yes, it would cost, on average, $600 to open 4 goyfs by opening boxes. However, does anyone really believe that WOTC is going to say that there is too much demand for this product and therefore we will ban it? The tremendously high demand could make an argument for reprinting (ignoring other issues that go with that), but in print product is never going to be banned for cost reasons (even assuming they had a policy of banning based on cost to begin with, as Bardo has disproven).

[Hightower]

... The tremendously high demand could make an argument for reprinting (ignoring other issues that go with that), but in print product is never going to be banned for cost reasons (even assuming they had a policy of banning based on cost to begin with, as Bardo has disproven).

That reminds me, Tarmogoyf is in a "future" design frame (like many others). We saw that Boldwyr guy just got reprinted in Morningtide:

Boldwyr Intimidator

Morningtide (Uncommon)
Future Sight (Uncommon)

So Goyf will come again, it's just a matter of when.

[freakish777]

That reminds me, Tarmogoyf is in a "future" design frame (like many others). We saw that Boldwyr guy just got reprinted in Morningtide:

Boldwyr Intimidator

Morningtide (Uncommon)
Future Sight (Uncommon)

So Goyf will come again, it's just a matter of when.

Wrong. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr275)


Second, the logistics of making sure every card had a home in a future set was a daunting one. Yes, we could make sure there are homes for some cards (and there are), but forcing us to be able to reprint anything would really hamper what we could do with the cards. It's much harder to push the envelope when you don't have any outs down the road.

[FoolofaTook]

That reminds me, Tarmogoyf is in a "future" design frame (like many others). We saw that Boldwyr guy just got reprinted in Morningtide:

Boldwyr Intimidator

Morningtide (Uncommon)
Future Sight (Uncommon)

So Goyf will come again, it's just a matter of when.

Just watch the bannings. If Goyf is banned in Standard then it will be reprinted and if it's not it won't.

[C.P.]

That reminds me, Tarmogoyf is in a "future" design frame (like many others). We saw that Boldwyr guy just got reprinted in Morningtide:

Boldwyr Intimidator

Morningtide (Uncommon)
Future Sight (Uncommon)

So Goyf will come again, it's just a matter of when.

I don't know, they printed things like Steamflogger Boss as Futureshifted cards as well. Seeing that we can safely assume that not all of them will be reprinted, and the fact that goyf makes ridiculous effect on standard, I doubt if they will be printing it.

[Hightower]

Ah.. my bad, sloppy research from my side. (thought i had found the end of the rainbow)

[Bovinious]

We may or may not see Goyf again, the point of doing the Future Shifted cards was so WOTC could test potential ideas, see what we like, then put those in future sets. I guess Boldwyr probably was set in stone because it was the next block, but theres no way ALL of those shifted cards will make a return. My guess is Tarmogoyf or other cards that care about card types in graveyards could come back in the next graveyard-matters themed set, but they may not reprint Goyf because they know they fucked up with it (not necessarily the mechanic, at 1GG he woulda been fine) and wouldnt wanna ruin Standard for another 2 years.

[C.P.]

Just watch the bannings. If Goyf is banned in Standard then it will be reprinted and if it's not it won't.

Can you explain yourself? What kind of logic is this based on?

[URABAHN]

I was into the article, devouring nearly every word, then I use the mouse wheel to scroll down and



it ends.

Fun to read, but I also hate B&R discussions.

[FoolofaTook]

Can you explain yourself? What kind of logic is this based on?

Goyf is a breaker for Standard. Much more than in Legacy where there are numerous ways to deal with him, steal him, block him, shrink him, etc.

I believe that WoTC will not allow Standard to become Goyf-tard for ever. This means that if he stays legal in Standard they are probably not planning to reprint him, which would have the effect of extending his dominance of Standard beyond the point at which Future Sight rotates out.

If on the other hand they ban Goyf in Standard then there's really no impedance to reprinting him as a Magic staple. Standard will lose him when FS rotates out, as will Extended at some point, but the eternal metas will still have him.

[Wallace]

Is Goyf any more broken than Jitte was in standard? I mean Jitte could win a game by itself (Yes I know it needed a creature to be equipt to). I remember losing several games to a Jitte being dropped on the board, it was never banned? Goyf is an amazing creature at a great cost (:1::g:), but he's vanilla, I know he's on avg. 4/5 for :1::g:, vanilla dude, but still he dies to almost any removal spell, any counter spell and still has to get in there. He gets chump blocked by everything and with no trample...well he's vanilla. I really don't think you will see Goyf banned, I don't think you will see him reprinted either though.

Just my thoughts...

[TeenieBopper]

If on the other hand they ban Goyf in Standard then there's really no impedance to reprinting him as a Magic staple. Standard will lose him when FS rotates out, as will Extended at some point, but the eternal metas will still have him.

Except for the fact that they're not going to reprint cards on the standard banned list. Think of the shitty PR they'd have if people cracked a pack, "Tarmogoyf... they banned this years ago. Why the hell did they reprint it?"

[Michael Keller]

Give green a break. He'll stay because he is green - in the proverbial sense.

[Wallace]

Give green a break. He'll stay because he is green - in the proverbial sense.

Tarmogoyf's green, since when...he clearly looks blue to me...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/tarm-1.jpghttp://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/tarm-2.jpg

I kind of like the Blue Border with the green mana symbol myself...

[TeenieBopper]

Tarmogoyf's green, since when...he clearly looks blue to me...

"Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever made. They even made it green so you can't pitch it to Force of Will, which is always the wrong play."

[Wallace]

"Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever made. They even made it green so you can't pitch it to Force of Will, which is always the wrong play."


Yeah, thats a good point, doesn't he look so good with a blue border though..besides the really bad image...

[Hightower]

I thought he was a Goblin even?

[DragoFireheart]

I thought he was a Goblin even?

He's clearly a Treefolk. Look at all of the Doran Rock decks he is in.

[Phantom]

He's clearly a Treefolk. Look at all of the Doran Rock decks he is in.

He's clearly a manland. Why else would they play him in Landstill?

More on topic, I'm of the belief that we shouldn't start talking about banning cards for price reasons until WotC says that they are actually banning cards for price reasons. As for unbanning, I'm intrigued, but a tad hesitant. I really love the current meta, and would not like to see it completely unbalanced. After the Flash fiasco, I'm not sure I trust WotC to react swiftly and correctly should an unbanning become unbalanced.

Basically, I'm all for slow, well thought out unbannings with careful monitoring. Is that possible in our format? I'm not sure.

[Shion]

Not to derail the Tarmo shitstorm, but upon reading the article it occurred to me, that if you really want to improve Reanimator, that instead of unbanning a narrow, 1 deck engine card (Worldgorger Dragon). Why not instead bring back Entomb. It definitely improves Reanimator, its in the same color as most reanimation, it can be used in more decks that just one unlike Dragon, and it shouldn't be to good for legacy. Of course there may be abusive interactions that I haven't considered overall I think its a much more useful card for the meta in general.

[TeenieBopper]

Not to derail the Tarmo shitstorm, but upon reading the article it occurred to me, that if you really want to improve Reanimator, that instead of unbanning a narrow, 1 deck engine card (Worldgorger Dragon). Why not instead bring back Entomb. It definitely improves Reanimator, its in the same color as most reanimation, it can be used in more decks that just one unlike Dragon, and it shouldn't be to good for legacy. Of course there may be abusive interactions that I haven't considered overall I think its a much more useful card for the meta in general.

It's a one mana, instant spead demonic tutor. No thanks.

[Shion]

It's a one mana, instant spead demonic tutor. No thanks.

That does not add to immediate card advantage or quality and with few exceptions does nothing by itself. How again is that a demonic tutor?

[Edit] Or rather what broken interactions actually exist with this card? I'm more than reasonable to admit its a bad idea if there is a sufficient degenerate interaction with this card.

[TeenieBopper]

Land, ritual, entomb for Akroma/Simic Sky Swallower/Plated Slagworm/verdant Force, Reanimate/Exhume/Animate Dead

Land, Mox/Petal, Entomb for Protean Hulk, Necromancy at instant spead, assemble a win that doesn't involve the attack step.

This is just off the top of my head, too. I'm sure Ichorid could find a good use for it to set up a much more consistant turn two kill or something, not to mention whatever other busted combo ideas people more creative than me could come up with.

[hi-val]

Entomb also becomes a ridiculous tutor for Salvagers decks. As long as we get to play with the fantasy opening of swamp, rit/petal, then hunting down Salvagers, binning it, Reanimating it and using an LED to crank up the combo (needs a spellbomb for svgnss though) is about the best it gets. Entomb is also dangerous there because it gets literally every piece of the combo into a place where you can use it and protect it from discard.

The goyf = 7 boxes = $600 falls apart a little when you factor in that you aren't throwing away the other rares you're opening. Quite a lot of Future Sight still sells for over what the pack cost.