[Mini Article] Ruminations on our Meta

[Phantom]

Ruminations on our Meta



Versatility vs. Speed


Everyone who plays Legacy has noticed the shift since the days when Goblins were kings among men. No longer is the first deck building requirement "Stop first turn Lackey". We now have a meta which encourages versatility AND speed, not just one or the other. Here are some things I think have changed thanks to the fall of Goblins, and really just some other thoughts.



Vindicated at Last


Vindicate was always a good card in Legacy. At Goblins crowning achievement, the victory at GP: Philly, the second place deck ran four, and loved them (according to the pilot). Still, he was forced to run four Swords to Plow, and two mainboard Engineered Plagues just to compete with Goblins. Also, Vindicate served mostly two roles in that meta: creature killer and Sinkhole. The top three decks ran no enchantments mainboard, and only an artifact or two (Vial and Needle come to mind). Back then there was no comparison, Swords to Plow was a much better card than Vindicate.

Now? It's much closer. StP is still amazing, especially with Goyf running rampant and graveyard decks everywhere. This isn't an argument against Plow, this is an argument for Vindicate. I personally believe the card has never been stronger. The card is 3cc. This used to be a mark against it, now it's a bonus. Decks with Counterbalance have trouble stopping it, and decks playing CB should want to run it to shore up their 3cc slot to fight Krosan Grip and other 3cc bombs. Vindicate also got a boost from the printing of Extirpate, which works very well with the flexible nature of Vindicate. I haven't seen a ton of people take advantage of this synergy, but I ran Vindicate in a deck with a wishboard and it worked wonders. Lastly, it has never been more important in Legacy to be able to deal with non creatures. I think Eva Green said this with the inclusion of mainboard disenchant effects, and I agree with them. Look at all the juicy, high tier targets there are for Vindicate these days:

Counterbalance
Belcher
Survival
Vial
Crucible
Moat
Blood Moon (if you can cast it)
a ton of stuff in Stax
a ton of stuff in Dragon/Faerie Stompy
a ton of stuff in Enchantress
Hoofprints
Vedalken Shackles
Volrath's Stronghold
Manlands
Deeds without the mana to blow
Aluren (do they drop this before they go off?)



Dirty Deeds (starting at :1::g::b:)


Swords to Plowshares is the best targeted creature removal spell in Legacy, but Pernicious Deed is the best removal spell in Legacy. I already listed above the reasons why hitting non creatures rocks (and 3cc for that matter), but Deed also hits creature tokens, which is equally huge. Deed used to be just dead against Combo decks. Now it is dead against nothing. Almost all combo decks are winning a certain amount of their games with creature tokens whether it be from Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below, or other sources. Tokens are also on the rise thanks to quality cards like Hoofprints of the Stag and Bitterblossom. A card like Deed can take care of the source, and the token (like when you use your magic in Gauntlet). If your deck doesn't run GB, or will sweep itself with a healthy size Deed, WotC was nice enough to print us a mini Deed in the form of Engineered Explosives. I really like Explosives because it still hits tokens, but also comes with a build in way to dodge Counterbalance (pump the X with same color mana) and Daze (the cost is spread out unlike the latter side of Crime // Punishment). I really think decks that rely on non white (and maybe red) should consider dropping crappy options like Smother and Ghastly Demise for a slower but far more powerful option like Explosives.



Blood Moon is here to stay (for now)


Blood Moon is another quality card that was relegated to sideboarding at best thanks to Goblins. Then Goblins died down AND they printed one on a stick. Now they are both here to stay, so you better get used to it. There is no doubt the card is growing in popularity. Dragon Stompy was the first to utilize it, which it did to devastating and apparently eye opening results. Now the rest of the meta is catching on. Survival gets a tutorable Moonstick. Then, the very deck that Moon wrecks (Thresh) started running it in it's red builds. Now I've even seen it in Loam decks. This is a strange phenomenon because the decks that are running Moon are often very crippled by it; they are simply counting on it's effect to cripple the opponent more. This is sort of the equivalent of Thresh running Trinispheres to stop The Epic Storm. Sure, it slows Thresh, but it kills TES. Moon effects are often just too powerful not to run.

So that's how we got into a Moon meta, but how do we fight it if we can't run Moon? Well, there's the basics, which I guess is a pun. Run them and fetch them if you see red (you are probably already doing this). Or you could run red I guess. Sadly while red can deal with Magus in a snap, it struggles mightily with enchantments. There are some less obvious solutions though. Birds of Paradise are always a nice touch. Slaughter Pact is an amazing way to deal with Magus. Also, any instant enchantment or creature removal combined with untapped land is huge thanks to the beauty of floating mana. Lastly, don't underestimate removal that can be played before the Moons hit, like Deed/Explosives/Keg, but also something like the Seals.

(Note also that Moon effects are yet ANOTHER reason why CB engines need more converted cost 3 cards)



I wish I wish I hadn't killed that fish.


Wishboards have never been dominant in Legacy. The only deck I ever watched get their moneys worth out of one was Solidarity, which overcame the hassle of adding :2::u: to a spells cost by producing roughly 47 mana in a turn. Frankly, adding mana to a spells cost was suicide in a format where the best and most popular deck ran 4 wastes, 4 ports, and killed you turn 4 (ish). With the meta a little more open and a tad slower, I now declare wishboards the strongest they have ever been. Slower meta means that I can actually wish for something this turn, and not be dead before I can cast it, and a more open meta means that your deck has to be more flexible to different strategies. Another bonus is the insanely high quality of wish targets these days, especially against counter strategies. Getting a wish target countered was often an insane tempo loss. Now blue players are often countering the Wish itself or risking seeing a split second, replicated, or Storm spell cast on them. Alternate casting cost cards are also a huge boon for Wishboards since it both speeds up the delivery of the spell, and can make a counter less devastating. Look at this potential UGB landstill wishboard:

Krosan Grip
Extirpate
Slaughter Pact
FoF or Meditate
Blue Elemental Blast
Pulse of the Fields

There are a ton more options, but I'm not ever sure you have to run more than the first three or four.

Well... it does keep the black knight at bay.


I've said a lot about Moat on these boards lately, so I'll keep it short. It kicks ass. It was always a good card against Goblins, but reaching :2::w::w: against them was a pain, and then they could get rid of it or use SGC and Fanatic to finish you (now they often don't run as much land hate and run colors that can't hit enchantments). All Moat does is keep all the best creatures in the format from attacking (from the worlds I believe they were: Goyf, Mishras, Confidant, and Meddling Mage) and will almost always neutralize more spots than it takes up. Hell, it even hurts most combo decks these days thanks to those ground token wins. I have found two problems to be speed and vulnerability. Here's how to counteract them:

1) Speed. You need to get Moat down before they beat you to death. Any sort of disruption, control, or acceleration can help you with that. Clearly, fighting combo will be the toughest task as they are quick, but counters, discard, or a Stompy shell (Tombs, Cities, and Moxen) can do the trick. I've also found cantrips to be a boon, as they let you dig for a Moat, or dig for the mana to cast it. A backup reset button like Wrath of god helps a lot too.

2) Vulnerability. Namely Krosan fucking Grip. This card is a bitch, but I've found a number of ways to fight it. You can win quickly before they can find the Grip. This is risky, but can also work out if you don't draw a Moat at all. You can run pro active disruption like discard, to rip their Grips or cantrips out of their hand (then Extirpate them if you have a wishboard). Counters will sadly only work on the cantrips, but Meddling Mage out of the board can be more easily protected. Lastly, you can just attempt to draw and play more Moats than they can kill through tutors, cantrips, and card draw.

While these are both problems for the cards use, neither is insurmountable, and neither is good enough reason not to buy 4 and play them, which brings up the problem of price. I have no help on that one.




(This didn't start out as an article, more thoughts just kept popping into my head, so I went back and organized it better. Hope you liked it. Thoughts?)

[r0ckstAr]

This is a very interesting article, especially for a guy like me who started playing legacy only one year ago :)
And the cunning wishboard is a very appealing idea, i found myself finding stuff to put there while reading

Just a thought : why are people running moat over Island Sanctuary in decks with strong draw power ?
A good point for sanctuary is that it only costs 2. Another one is that even if it gets destroyed, you still have one turn to find a solution.
I found it really amazing in synergy with Meditate (another card i love, and which doesn't see much play).

[FoolofaTook]

This is a very interesting article, especially for a guy like me who started playing legacy only one year ago :)
And the cunning wishboard is a very appealing idea, i found myself finding stuff to put there while reading

Just a thought : why are people running moat over Island Sanctuary in decks with strong draw power ?
A good point for sanctuary is that it only costs 2. Another one is that even if it gets destroyed, you still have one turn to find a solution.
I found it really amazing in synergy with Meditate (another card i love, and which doesn't see much play).

People aren't running Island Sanctuary because there aren't enough permanent ways to draw extra cards to best take advantage of it. You can't drop IS turn 2 to 4, when you really need it against Goblins for instance, reliably and win off of the play. Moat on turn 3 or 4 against Goblins is usually a win.

[Pinder]

Another thing to consider is, if you have the draw power to get around Sanctuary's drawback, why aren't you just running Solitary Confinement instead? It's only 1 mana more, and if you have the draw to support Island Sanctuary, you might as well just use it to support Confinement instead and get the benefit of Shroud as well. Plus, Squee/Confinement is like cheating, whereas Squee/Sanctuary is dumb.

edit - I suppose you could make the case that Sanctuary's ability is optional, but wither way it's not as good as Confinement, IMO.

[Nihil Credo]

Confinement takes two cards per turn, Island Sanctuary only one. This puts some limitations on what you can use to fuel them.

[Pinder]

Good catch. I forgot that skipping your draw plus discarding technically is -2 CA.

[FoolofaTook]

The main thing about Island Sanctuary is that it has a significant drawback and is not a guarantee even then. There are very few cards that have those two characteristics and are still playable.

If your deck is designed to increase the number of draws that you alone get on a regular basis then IS becomes a possibility. But there's no point to building a deck that allows everybody to draw extra cards (e.g. Howling Mines) just to make IS playable.

If you have a deck that promotes that for a kill (e.g Chains of Mephistopheles lock) then IS may well be playable in limited numbers as a mechanism both for getting out from under your own lock and also as anti-aggro.

[from Cairo]

Even still I would feel alot more comfortable playing a deck the uses Moat 2 turns later, than one that uses Island Sanctuary and Howling Mine... Or if for w/e reason I didn't want to use Moat, I would look to Solitary Confinement since atleast it adds Shroud.

[Nihil Credo]

from Cairo hit close to the heart of the issue. How useful is a two mana discount if the drawback is that you need a second combo piece? You're probably breaking even in terms of total mana cost, and you're even more vulnerable to removal (Dark Confidant?). The biggest issue, of course, is assembling the combo: FoW takes twelve other blue spells to be consistently fueled, so if you don't want to get stuck with dead Sanctuaries you'd probably need at least 8-10 draw engines (Confidant, Jace, Loam+Thicket, etc.).

If Sanctuary had the Masticore drawback, then it would be a lot easier to use: you'd just filter cards looking for the draw engine. But since it makes you skip your draw...

[Volt]

.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The real problem with Island Sanctuary is that you have to wait a turn for it to be effective, making it a dead topdeck and forcing you to be crafty. Still, it's a greatly underappreciated card that has excellent syngery with Top and Foresight (Pride of the Clouds!).

[TeenieBopper]

Just a thought : why are people running moat over Island Sanctuary in decks with strong draw power ?


Because Island Sanctuary requires you to run Island freakin' Sanctuary.

Seriously, people, it's not even close to being in the same league as Moat. Or even Propaganda. Leave it alone.

[from Cairo]

Still, it's [Island Sanctuary] a greatly underappreciated card...

I really don't agree, it's not appreciated because there are cards that do it's job better.

It doesn't come online until you skip your first draw so if you went first and resolved it turn 2, than your opponent's 3rd attack step is prohibited. And you either have to have a draw mechanism in hand, win the game with what was left in your grip when you cast Island Sanctuary, or else you're going to have to sometimes take your draw step and let them attack you.

Moat can be dropped turn 4 and is effective the turn it comes into play so it shuts off you're opponents attacks from their 4th attack step on. It requires nothing else to be maintained. Drawing those cards you're otherwise missing out on from Island Sanctuary means you will have more protection in hand against attempts to remove the Moat from play.

The idea of playing symmetrical draw engines, like Howling Mine or Jace, to fuel Sanctuary is awful because at the cost of you maintaining you're Moat-effect you're opponent twice as many cards to work with to either remove it or win around it.

If you want to stay only lightly in white IE not commit to 2WW, and are willing to set up a draw mechanism to fuel your maintaining a Moat-effect as you would with Island Sanctuary, than Solitary Confinement becomes a stronger card that Island Sanctuary since it brings another dimension of protection. But this requires a real engine to maintain, either Loam or Squee/Genesis, and again seems inferior to Moat as far as investment : effect goes.

[FoolofaTook]

If Island Sanctuary does something significant for your deck other than block non-flyers from attacking you then it might be defensible as a tool. Otherwise it's just not.

That would mean having it's ability to turn off a draw for you to be significant to your success. Or having it function in some other way.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I pretty much stopped reading after the Vindicate paragraph. That card sucks ass.

Did you not notice that Krosan Grip is better (in some cases, orders of magnitude better) at answering everything in that list of targets, aside from Volrath's Stronghold?

What really bothers me, though, is the suggestion that costing three mana makes the card better than more efficient spells because it gets around Counterbalance. The answer to beating good cards is never to play bad cards.

This is a format of one- and two-mana threats. Three-mana removal spells create huge tempo problems. Yes, I play Krosan Grips in my sideboards, to answer Counterbalances, but I lose games all the time to other artifacts and enchantments because Grip costs so much to play. Vindicate, being a two-color sorcery, is even worse.

[Tacosnape]

I pretty much stopped reading after the Vindicate paragraph. That card sucks ass.

Did you not notice that Krosan Grip is better (in some cases, orders of magnitude better) at answering everything in that list of targets, aside from Volrath's Stronghold?

This just means his list sucks, not Vindicate. Vindicate is a fantastic card.

The list didn't cover the three things Vindicate kills that make it truly awesome:

1. Planeswalkers. Rare as these guys are, Vindicate takes them down when they might kill you otherwise.
2. Creatures. Krosan Grip doesn't kill Tarmogoyf. Vindicate does.
3. Manabases. It can combine with Extirpate to shut a deck off of a color, and it can kill basic lands. The only other remotely played card that does this is Sinkhole.

[xsockmonkeyx]

3. Manabases. It can combine with Extirpate to shut a deck off of a color, and it can kill basic lands. The only other remotely played card that does this is Sinkhole.

Smallpox. Oh, and Armageddon.

Three mana, sorcery speed, 1 for 1 removal that forces you to play 2 non-blue, non-goyf colors. It better be able to kill anything because otherwise Vindicate sucks.

[Belgareth]

I pretty much stopped reading after the Vindicate paragraph. That card sucks ass.


I really expected better from you, this is not the sort of attitude that helps creativity.

It was actually a really interesting read and while none of it was new, it was well thought out and a good writing style.

[Hummingbird TG]

Smallpox. Oh, and Armageddon.

Three mana, sorcery speed, 1 for 1 removal that forces you to play 2 non-blue, non-goyf colors. It better be able to kill anything because otherwise Vindicate sucks.

(emphasis mine)

Well, as a matter of fact, Vindicate *can* kill anything, so long as its targetable......

[xsockmonkeyx]

(emphasis mine)

Well, as a matter of fact, Vindicate *can* kill anything, so long as its targetable......

So we agree that it sucks.

[Peter_Rotten]

I pretty much stopped reading after the Vindicate paragraph. That card sucks ass.

Did Teeniebopper high-jack your account?

Although I agree with your general opinion about Vindicate (it's on my list of cards that I like to see played against me. I take it as a sign that I'm probably playing against a weak deck) I did, however, read the whole mini-article.

I found that the general proposal that playing a 3cc spell is stronger now to be an interesting one and would would like to encourage members to continue posting well-developed thoughts (mini-articles, articles, or whatever) that provide a solid read and a springboard for discussion.

Specifically @ Vindicate. Like OB mentioned, most of the relevant targets listed would be better handled by an instant speed, uncouterable Krosan Grip. We could all imagine very specific situations when Vindicate could be better than Grip in the Dragon Stompy match, but how frequent are those situations?

And, lastly, a random thought. Putrefy. There's a 3cc card that could be explored. Personally, I'd keep it in the uncommons bin, but (using this 3cc theory) it's a card that kills the more relevant permament types in Legacy.

[SilverGreen]

Smallpox. Oh, and Armageddon.

Three mana, sorcery speed, 1 for 1 removal that forces you to play 2 non-blue, non-goyf colors. It better be able to kill anything because otherwise Vindicate sucks.Following this line of thought, next examples will be Epicenter and Decree of Annihilation. =/

I'm happy to play Vindicate at least as a 2-of in most archetypes that are able to support it. But that's sure that if you're trying to play it in your Threshold build, it'll suck hard. Vindicate is a versatile, honest and nice card to be currently played in such a wide open meta. Specially when paired with Deeds.

And just remember, I'm buying all sucking Vindicates you want to sell for $1 apiece. ;)

[Mental]

Island Sanctuary in Enchantress? Just a thought.

[Jaynel]

In my limited knowledge of the deck, Enchantress CRANKS out mana with stuff like Utopia Sprawl, Exploration, and Serra Sanctum. It seems like paying 1W more for the better effect of Moat is both manageable and worth it.

[Mental]

In my limited knowledge of the deck, Enchantress CRANKS out mana with stuff like Utopia Sprawl, Exploration, and Serra Sanctum. It seems like paying 1W more for the better effect of Moat is both manageable and worth it.

You're probably right. It is possible, however, that in a mainly goblins meta Sanctuary would be better.

[diffy]

Island Sanctuary in Enchantress?

I've been playing a pair of them in my list and I really like them up to now especially since they are more mana efficient than Moat: you can just play them now, draw some cards and see what's next (like adressing a current threat) instead of having to spend all your mana now: if enchantress is having access to all that mana it has won anyways most of the time so I'd rather play something that is actually good when I'm not winning.
The point can be made that you need some Enchantress effect to maintain the Island Sanctuary but I still like a split of it and Moat, especially since your first and foremost goal with enchantress is to get said effect onto the table as soon as possible.
For refference, I'm playing a 1/2/3 split of Moat, Island Sanctuary and Solitary Confinement. This is mainly for testing purposes but has actually turned out to be pretty effective.

[raharu]

About Vindicate... It's a powerful card that warants further development (and is vastly better than Putrefy), but the problem that arises is that the decks that want to run it (contol, agro-control) are only splashing for white and black, so the deck has to stretch out it's manabase in order to play it. In something such as Bunnies or BWx board control decks, the card is golden because you can actually play it reliably, but in other lists, you can't always get the two splash colors to play it (on that note, Fish could play it, and benifit greatly from it, but I'm not sure that Fish is even a deck anymore...) It looks rather sexy in cunning landstill (with Extirpates in the wishboard/ MD) but you might stretch too far out of blue, which is never a good thing. Vindicate, in control decks, wants to be a three mana catch-all/ Swiss army knife. This is possible, but the deck still has to be Ubw, which causes a problem when buildind decks. You want to have more utility (which generally comes from wb), but you can't stretch FoW out too far.

[Phantom]

@ Island Sanctuary: Is there any chance we could stop talking about this card here? Go over to the article that actually mentioned it, and post on those boards about it. I'm not really interested in the card at all.


Did you not notice that Krosan Grip is better (in some cases, orders of magnitude better) at answering everything in that list of targets, aside from Volrath's Stronghold?


Yeah, I thought hitting creatures was so obvious, I didn't need to put it on the list (the list was about things that Vindicate hits now that it didn't hit or need to hit as much in the old meta). I was really pointing out all the things it could hit that Plow couldn't, but if you really want me to list all the things it can hit that Grip can't, we'll be here all fucking day. I guess I should have made it clearer that Vindicate is a creature killer like 40% of the time. Something Grip can't do at all.


What really bothers me, though, is the suggestion that costing three mana makes the card better than more efficient spells because it gets around Counterbalance. The answer to beating good cards is never to play bad cards.

I never meant that, and don't think I ever said it. What I did mean to imply and say, is that 3cc cards have never been stronger. That is all. I never said don't run Plow, and never really would.


This is a format of one- and two-mana threats. Three-mana removal spells create huge tempo problems. Yes, I play Krosan Grips in my sideboards, to answer Counterbalances, but I lose games all the time to other artifacts and enchantments because Grip costs so much to play. Vindicate, being a two-color sorcery, is even worse.

I understand that running a 3cc removal spell will occasionally cost you as the Goyf gets to swing in a time or two. However, I don't understand this point. You're saying it's ok to play Grip even though it's slow because it gets around CB, but it's NOT ok to play Vindicate (which can hit things even if they don't drop CB/Top)? And I'm even advocating a 4 Plow, X Vindicate setup so you can answer those threats quickly, and use Vindicate as backup creature removal OR anything else removal.



Specifically @ Vindicate. Like OB mentioned, most of the relevant targets listed would be better handled by an instant speed, uncouterable Krosan Grip. We could all imagine very specific situations when Vindicate could be better than Grip in the Dragon Stompy match, but how frequent are those situations?

As a Dragon Stompy player, I would have to say I'd almost always rather see the person playing Grip than Vindicate except against Blood Moon and maybe Sword of Fire and Ice. DS helps its game plan along with disruption, but it wins with creature. Nasty ones. Vindicate kills them. Grip doesn't. That doesn't even hit on the huge bonus that is destroying one of DS' mountains (we run 10 and 4 moxen, so it's not a lock we're getting another red source soon).


About Vindicate... It's a powerful card that warants further development (and is vastly better than Putrefy), but the problem that arises is that the decks that want to run it (contol, agro-control) are only splashing for white and black, so the deck has to stretch out it's manabase in order to play it. In something such as Bunnies or BWx board control decks, the card is golden because you can actually play it reliably, but in other lists, you can't always get the two splash colors to play it (on that note, Fish could play it, and benifit greatly from it, but I'm not sure that Fish is even a deck anymore...) It looks rather sexy in cunning landstill (with Extirpates in the wishboard/ MD) but you might stretch too far out of blue, which is never a good thing. Vindicate, in control decks, wants to be a three mana catch-all/ Swiss army knife. This is possible, but the deck still has to be Ubw, which causes a problem when buildind decks. You want to have more utility (which generally comes from wb), but you can't stretch FoW out too far.

This is all a good point. I'm not sure it's SUCH a good card that you shouldn't run it in decks that can't run it safely and easily to begin with.

Thanks all for the constructive criticism.

[Nihil Credo]

Maindecking Krosan Grip is 99% a bad idea. Sideboarding Vindicate is 99% a bad idea. That alone makes Vindicate vs. Krosan Grip arguments completely pointless.

[zulander]

I think you completely forgot about burning wish. I don't think I need to list all the decks that have fully utilized that card.

[mercenarybdu]

I've already advantage of the benefits from both vindacate and extirpate being in the format.

[Phantom]

I think you completely forgot about burning wish. I don't think I need to list all the decks that have fully utilized that card.

My whole point was that Wishes are stronger now than they have ever been. For most of that block, I'm speaking very generally about about all three playable wishes (I didn't mention Burning Wish by name, but when I referred to Replicate and Storm, I was really talking about Shattering Spree and EtW) so I'm not sure I forgot about it, I just didn't mention it as much, because I really don't think it has gone as unnoticed as Cunning or Living Wish.


Maindecking Krosan Grip is 99% a bad idea. Sideboarding Vindicate is 99% a bad idea. That alone makes Vindicate vs. Krosan Grip arguments completely pointless.

Completely agree and part of the reason why I compared it to StP in the article.


I've already advantage of the benefits from both vindacate and extirpate being in the format.

Huh?

[FoolofaTook]

Maindecking Krosan Grip is 99% a bad idea. Sideboarding Vindicate is 99% a bad idea. That alone makes Vindicate vs. Krosan Grip arguments completely pointless.

Just out of curiousity, and because I have no idea, what percentage of the decks in the current meta do not include at least one artifact or enchantment that can kill you if it lands on the board early and stays there?

I'm thinking Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top , Aether Vial in Goblins (although whether killing it turn 3 helps is debatable), Chalice@1 (and @2 which is harder to pull off), Crucible, Smokestack, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives played proactively as it often is these days, Moat, Blood Moon, Leylines of the Void, etc. I don't know what else is present but there are a lot of early non-creature permanents that I'd like to get rid of and very few options as good as Krosan Grip to do it with.

Which decks would 2 Krosan Grips be an amazing drag against?

[Nihil Credo]

Just out of curiousity, and because I have no idea, what percentage of the decks in the current meta do not include at least one artifact or enchantment that can kill you if it lands on the board early and stays there?

I'm thinking Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top , Aether Vial in Goblins (although whether killing it turn 3 helps is debatable), Chalice@1 (and @2 which is harder to pull off), Crucible, Smokestack, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives played proactively as it often is these days, Moat, Blood Moon, Leylines of the Void, etc. I don't know what else is present but there are a lot of early non-creature permanents that I'd like to get rid of and very few options as good as Krosan Grip to do it with.

Which decks would 2 Krosan Grips be an amazing drag against?
It is dead or mostly dead against combo, black-based disruption/aggro/mana denial, Ichorid, and burn-using aggro. But that was not the point of my post.

Vindicate isn't a dead SB slot either. It's just suboptimal, because it's highly unlikely that it will be the best card for the job - the whole point of its existence is being a jack of all trades, master at none.

Likewise, Krosan Grip may not be often a dead draw, but as a maindeck option it almost never fits within a consistent game plan. If you run maindeck "pure answer" cards at all, they should still contribute towards a focused goal (and since we're likely talking about a control deck, this goal is probably "surviving until my late-game bombs come online").

There are exceptions (Eva Green, which as a mono-black deck would stumble onto a lot of random losses; or perhaps a Mystical Tutor toolbox), but in general, Krosan Grip's effectiveness as a Disenchant effect does not come into play often enough to make it better than stuff like Engineered Explosives, Viridian Zealot, Trygon Predator, and so on.

[FoolofaTook]

It is dead or mostly dead against combo, black-based disruption/aggro/mana denial, Ichorid, and burn-using aggro. But that was not the point of my post.

Vindicate isn't a dead SB slot either. It's just suboptimal, because it's highly unlikely that it will be the best card for the job - the whole point of its existence is being a jack of all trades, master at none.

Likewise, Krosan Grip may not be often a dead draw, but as a maindeck option it almost never fits within a consistent game plan. If you run maindeck "pure answer" cards at all, they should still contribute towards a focused goal (and since we're likely talking about a control deck, this goal is probably "surviving until my late-game bombs come online").

There are exceptions (Eva Green, which as a mono-black deck would stumble onto a lot of random losses; or perhaps a Mystical Tutor toolbox), but in general, Krosan Grip's effectiveness as a Disenchant effect does not come into play often enough to make it better than stuff like Engineered Explosives, Viridian Zealot, Trygon Predator, and so on.

Just looking at Threshold, as an example, the Engineered Explosives is unlikely to take out a Moat, nor a Counterbalance since you won't be able to land it, nor Blood Moon for obvious reasons. So I don't see why Threshold wouldn't pack a couple of Krosan Grip to handle the 3 common problems that kill it most often in today's meta. There are other things that annoy Threshold but if any of those 3 things get resolved the win% goes way down.

Maybe it's just more old fogeyism here but there were no good decks in the old meta that did not pack at least a couple of all-purpose solutions against artifacts and enchantments. Engineered Explosives is very far from all-purpose in that context.

[Phantom]

Just looking at Threshold, as an example, the Engineered Explosives is unlikely to take out a Moat, nor a Counterbalance since you won't be able to land it, nor Blood Moon for obvious reasons. So I don't see why Threshold wouldn't pack a couple of Krosan Grip to handle the 3 common problems that kill it most often in today's meta. There are other things that annoy Threshold but if any of those 3 things get resolved the win% goes way down.


It's actually really easy to land an Explosives against CB. Just pump the X up to 3 or 4 with the same colored mana. That way the sunburst will be 2, but the CC will be 3 or 4.

Anyway, the Grip vs. Explosives suffers from the same logic as Grip vs. Vindicate. The one that hits creatures (and in this case token swarms) is going to win the mainboard slot almost every time.

[xsockmonkeyx]

It's actually really easy to land an Explosives against CB. Just pump the X up to 3 or 4 with the same colored mana. That way the sunburst will be 2, but the CC will be 3 or 4.

Just wanted to add that colorless mana will do the same trick.

[dahcmai]

I've been having pretty good results out of this little experimental thing I made up with Confidant, Sylvan Library, Words of Worship, and Island Sanctuary. I typically just gain a ton of life and start paying for the 8 life. Scent of jasmine makes you shoot up so fast most decks can't keep up in the early turns. It's been making goblins and TES cry so I think I'm on to something.

[FoolofaTook]

It's actually really easy to land an Explosives against CB. Just pump the X up to 3 or 4 with the same colored mana. That way the sunburst will be 2, but the CC will be 3 or 4.

Anyway, the Grip vs. Explosives suffers from the same logic as Grip vs. Vindicate. The one that hits creatures (and in this case token swarms) is going to win the mainboard slot almost every time.

If you pump it to 4, which is the safe number, don't you just re-enable Daze as the answer in most scenarios?

[Phantom]

If you pump it to 4, which is the safe number, don't you just re-enable Daze as the answer in most scenarios?

Well I guess it would depend on how much mana you have. Also, :3: is usually a safe number, and is a perfect comparison since we are talking about switching it with Grip.

[FoolofaTook]

Well I guess it would depend on how much mana you have. Also, :3: is usually a safe number, and is a perfect comparison since we are talking about switching it with Grip.

However 3 is a dangerous number, particularly against a deck running Counterbalance and that also has Krosan Grip. 4 is a much safer number to lay your explosives at if you are facing Counterbalance and trying to get rid of it.

Engineered Explosives also is noticeably deficient at getting rid of Blood Moon, while Krosan Grip just requires a Forest or Mox Diamond to go off.

All I'm saying is that I see a lot of decks making the decision these days to effectively go with poor to awful answers for artifacts and enchantments game 1 so that they can include more anti-creature stuff. That's defensible against a lot of decks, but the meta is beginning to include more and more killer enchantments and artifacts and I think in the long-term decks are going to have to take that into account.

[Nightmare]

Basic lands solve all of these problems. Just sayin.

It's a hell of a lot easier to deal with Blood Moon if you aren't stuck with a board full of Mountains. Blood Moon is a fairly simple card to work around, if you decide to.

Explosives for 2, payed for with 6 mana, and activated without passing priority, was the most fun I've ever had killing a Counterbalance.

[Phantom]

Basic lands solve all of these problems. Just sayin.

It's a hell of a lot easier to deal with Blood Moon if you aren't stuck with a board full of Mountains. Blood Moon is a fairly simple card to work around, if you decide to.


Completely true, but dangerous thinking. I mean, I can completely play around Blood Moon, Wasteland, CB, and Stifle by running nothing but forests and Craw Wurms. I will never lose to any of those cards, but I will also never win a match because I have so significantly downgraded the power of my deck just to play around a few cards.

I agree that basics are now more important, but I think the key is knowing how many you can run without hurting your natural power level of the deck. I've always wondered what this number waas for UGW thresh. I've seen them run two islands, a plains and a forest, but I wonder if they could go higher.


However 3 is a dangerous number, particularly against a deck running Counterbalance and that also has Krosan Grip. 4 is a much safer number to lay your explosives at if you are facing Counterbalance and trying to get rid of it.

I don't see how you can make this point when you are talking about replacing it with Grip which ALWAYS gets him by CB at 3. Explosives at least have the versatility to work from two mana all the way up to like 6 mana (see Nightmares example).


Engineered Explosives also is noticeably deficient at getting rid of Blood Moon, while Krosan Grip just requires a Forest or Mox Diamond to go off.

No one is saying there are not times when Grip isn't better. This is why it's a sideboard card. What I am saying is there are MANY more situations when Explosives are better, which is why it is a mainboard card. What do you see more of, Blood Moon : or Goyf? or Mongoose? or EtW tokens? or Misras Factories? or Dark Confidants? etc.


All I'm saying is that I see a lot of decks making the decision these days to effectively go with poor to awful answers for artifacts and enchantments game 1 so that they can include more anti-creature stuff. That's defensible against a lot of decks, but the meta is beginning to include more and more killer enchantments and artifacts and I think in the long-term decks are going to have to take that into account.

Good point and I guess it ties into my point above. If we started seeing a ton more Stax and Enchantress decks (and I guess TEC) that are actually winning primarly through artifacts and enchantments, then I could support a mainboard disenchant movement. Till then most decks are using creatures to win and supplementing that with artifact and enchantment disruption or card advantage (like Thresh, Survival, or Dragon Stompy). Throw in the fact that combo decks are also winning through creature tokens, and you have a meta where Explosives is a much better mainboard card than Krosan Grip.

[Nightmare]

Completely true, but dangerous thinking. I mean, I can completely play around Blood Moon, Wasteland, CB, and Stifle by running nothing but forests and Craw Wurms. I will never lose to any of those cards, but I will also never win a match because I have so significantly downgraded the power of my deck just to play around a few cards.Hyperbole is not a good way to promote discussion. There's a pretty big difference between trimming down your manabase vulnerablility and running Craw Wurm.


I agree that basics are now more important, but I think the key is knowing how many you can run without hurting your natural power level of the deck. I've always wondered what this number waas for UGW thresh. I've seen them run two islands, a plains and a forest, but I wonder if they could go higher.
I've run 17 lands with three Islands and one of each off color basic. That was about as far as I was willing to push it.

[mercenarybdu]

I knew that Vindicate would be a really big card and I made sure that Pikula's message was made clear when they were still going for $10 a copy. Suddenly it went all the way to $16 a copy and soon to be $20 a copy once everyone realizes how good the card is to kill anything in play for three mana.

Extirpate just adds onto the fire by providing hosing support which have proven to be quite useful when watching the look on an opposing player's face when it came to hosing out all of their force of wills and swords to plows in my beta runs.

Cashseize just made all of them even better with the classic three of Hippie, Hymn and Dark Ritual as it would snipe out cards without having to wait too long to power out a vindicate to netralize it.

[mercenarybdu]

Basic lands solve all of these problems. Just sayin.

It's a hell of a lot easier to deal with Blood Moon if you aren't stuck with a board full of Mountains. Blood Moon is a fairly simple card to work around, if you decide to.

Explosives for 2, payed for with 6 mana, and activated without passing priority, was the most fun I've ever had killing a Counterbalance.

I've worked around the blood moon since I figured that if I could work around all of the other nonbasic land hate in the format could I win more games without being stunted for a turn due to not having the mana ready to go by that turn to cast spells.

So basic lands do solve part of the problem as the player won't be stuck with a bunch of lands they can't use.

[Phantom]

Hyperbole is not a good way to promote discussion. There's a pretty big difference between trimming down your manabase vulnerablility and running Craw Wurm.

I just think it's a good way of showing the danger of going overboard in reaction to a few cards. Clearly no one is going to go that overboard, but if people drop all their duals or all their fetches or both, they are going to be able to beat land hate, but 0 decks. Exageration can bring the point of the tradeoff of vulnerability and objective power into starker contrast. At least, I thought it did.

The bigger question is for decks that really can't support basics. At least not easily. Do they run Birds? Do they run mainboard answers like Grip? Do they accept the loss? Do they run basics and accept way more losses elsewhere? 4c Landstill comes to mind. that deck used to crush DS, and now it's almost a coin flip.



I've run 17 lands with three Islands and one of each off color basic. That was about as far as I was willing to push it.

Seems reasonable to me.

[Jourdelune]

I pretty much stopped reading after the Vindicate paragraph. That card sucks ass.

Did you not notice that Krosan Grip is better (in some cases, orders of magnitude better) at answering everything in that list of targets, aside from Volrath's Stronghold?

What really bothers me, though, is the suggestion that costing three mana makes the card better than more efficient spells because it gets around Counterbalance. The answer to beating good cards is never to play bad cards.

This is a format of one- and two-mana threats. Three-mana removal spells create huge tempo problems. Yes, I play Krosan Grips in my sideboards, to answer Counterbalances, but I lose games all the time to other artifacts and enchantments because Grip costs so much to play. Vindicate, being a two-color sorcery, is even worse.

Krosan Grip > Vindicate against blue.

Vindicate get around CounterTop but it's the Chalice of the Void killer (like Krosan Grip).

Vindicate is a solution for B-u-w deck, while Krosan Grip is not.

So, if you play green against a none-blue deck that use Chalice of the void, then grip is better but if you get Green/White/Black Vindicate is better against no blue deck. If you don't play green against none-blue deck that use Chalice of the void, vindicate do the same.

But mind you, Krosan Grip < Vindicate against creature and land.

But Vindicate require two colors so, not a lot of people will splash for that! (K. Grip > Vindicate) (and every body with their mother play Tarmo, so Grips are more accessible color wise...)

The only Gbw deck I know of are Doran deck or some landstill built. Those pilots should try vindicate and grips. And answer you.


Actually, 40% of meta is *****, the other 25-30% packed chalice of the void (stax, stompy) and you get the rest...

The day ***** will crumble like goblins, we will get a more open meta because the need of Chalice of the Void will be over.

Oh... and don't you find it special, that Fish has not seen a lot of playing lately? Faeries, Angel and the last born, Dragon Stompy simply wreck deck with 2 or less mana curve. My guess, CotV backup with free counterspells on the play (Faeries Stompy) has give him the killing blow.

Jourdelune

[Ewokslayer]

I knew that Vindicate would be a really big card and I made sure that Pikula's message was made clear when they were still going for $10 a copy. Suddenly it went all the way to $16 a copy and soon to be $20 a copy once everyone realizes how good the card is to kill anything in play for three mana.


I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the value of Vindicate has nothing to do with its strength or weakness in Legacy.

I am sure if you were to look at when it "suddenly" went up in value it would match quite well with Extended season and since it is rotating expect it to drop alot.

[mercenarybdu]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the value of Vindicate has nothing to do with its strength or weakness in Legacy.

I am sure if you were to look at when it "suddenly" went up in value it would match quite well with Extended season and since it is rotating expect it to drop alot.

Although it had to do something with that season people are currently catching on to Pikula's demonstration.

In fact I had to turn down a deal of small trades for my spare vindicates I had in my hanger since I had them set aside to build something in the future with them.

The trades for only a few parts rounding up to $10 as I was looking for more with just 3 copies of sixth edition flash.