Type 4: Card Evaluations

[Hoojo]

Anyone have some advice on evaluating what cards go in a Type 4 stack and in what ratios? Most articles I've found are pretty old but have good information, but I wondered if anyone has had any additional insight. One peice that I have been working with is the Large Men portion; I've tried to maintain at least a 5/5, nonundercosted, noncompetative creatures only policy, but its difficult with certain cards like Protean Hulk or Chromium. Protean is on the top end while Chromium is on the very bottom.

[cdr]

You might get more responses on TMD's casual forum.

Advice:
Build sub-themes. Dragons, wizards, poison, whatever.

If there's a general consensus among the group you play with that a card is unfun, don't be shy about cutting it. I've found these to be cards that make the game end abruptly, like Biorythm and even Dark Depths.

If there's a general consensus that a card sucks, don't be shy about cutting it. Unless it's part of a cycle or theme, of course, like Chromium.

Don't focus too much on ratios and constructing the perfect stack. It's supposed to be fun.

[Nightmare]

I started with a list I got on TMD and then tweaked to my own liking from there. The only real way to tell if the stack is balanced or not is to play with it. I like a ton of counterspells, and very little "I win" effects, so that games are longer and more interactive. Then, eventually, someone can grind out advantage and win from there.

[Zach Tartell]

I started with a list I got on TMD and then tweaked to my own liking from there. The only real way to tell if the stack is balanced or not is to play with it. I like a ton of counterspells, and very little "I win" effects, so that games are longer and more interactive. Then, eventually, someone can grind out advantage and win from there.

I've seen some pretty nasty combos. For instance, one time Adam got Greater Good out, sac'd something like the "take control of your shit" Dragon, and drew into Krosan Cloudscraper and Genesis. Since his rules don't count alternate casting costs as playing a spell (such as morph) he had a "Draw 13 cards a turn" engine while it drew him into enough countermagic to keep Good alive, then combo'd us out a couple turns later with some sort of Timmy effect.

[Nightmare]

I've seen some pretty nasty combos. For instance, one time Adam got Greater Good out, sac'd something like the "take control of your shit" Dragon, and drew into Krosan Cloudscraper and Genesis. Since his rules don't count alternate casting costs as playing a spell (such as morph) he had a "Draw 13 cards a turn" engine while it drew him into enough countermagic to keep Good alive, then combo'd us out a couple turns later with some sort of Timmy effect.

But that kinda thing is pretty convoluted, and hard to pull off, which is why its so memorable when it does happen.

[Nihil Credo]

Put a Kor Haven in the stack.

[Nightmare]

Put a Kor Haven in the stack.
And make it a Plains, so you can cycle Eternal Dragon for it.

[on1y0ne]

One mistake many people make when building their Type 4 stack is that there is an inclusion on several Artifacts and Enchantments, yet the ways to get rid of them are few and far between. Make sure you have a delicate balance.

Cards people hate to play against, but love to have on their side:
Kaervek
Teferi
Blast from the Past
Vedalken Orrery
Nullstone Gargoyle
Spell Burst

I am sure there are others I can't think of.
Also, you may want or need to errata cards in your stack so that they play well and are not totally broken.

Have fun!

[Zach Tartell]

But that kinda thing is pretty convoluted, and hard to pull off, which is why its so memorable when it does happen.

Or - oh, god, remember this one?

MY FIRST EVER TYPE 4 EXTRAVAGANZA!!!
The time: wicked fucking late; The date: whatever Friday was before the second Running GAGG. You remember that tournament, right? Some asshole got second place then never stopped mouthing off on these board? Yeah, he's pretty handsome and wise, too. You're thinking of him.

Anyway, we're drafting the type 4 stack at Adam's place. Jim, Herbig, Adam, Colin (I'm pretty sure I've been misspelling that the entire time I've known him but he seems to be down with it), maybe Abold, and I were chilling before a tournament. Actually, it was probably a Mana Leak event, which means that Bryant was there too, and it wasn't before my magnificent breakout. Ow.

Well, I was still pretty shitty at Magic (assume, for the sake of argument, that I'm not that terrible right now. Haha, good jokes, assholes), and I was given the momentous task of drafting a type 4 deck. Needless to say I kept every single "draw x cards" and "counter target spell" spell that passed in front of me. Kind of mean, and not really a receipie to win, but I "cracked" an Aeon Chronicler pack 2 which was ridiculous.

Anyway, I open hand the Aeon Chronicler. YAUS!! I suspend him, then pass the turn. Turns pass slowly over to Jim, who drops Phage (or inferno or something). If it was Phage then this happened the next turn, courtesy of our own Adam Barnello. Jim swings with Phage/Inferno's EOT to wipe away Herbig's Storm Herd tokens, and Adam drops a Captain's Manuver on his ass. Peace the fuck out Jim. I told him not to worry, since the game'd go quick (or I'd make it go quick) on account of I was holding a "once more with feeling" in my hand (Eratta: the DCI has restricted this card). In order to make friends (and go sick/nasty with my bad self) when Adam targeted me with Fact or Fiction I assured him that I'd go 5-0. Herbig dropped a Draining Whelk on it, which would have sucked, but (since I'm a gentle lover) I Spelljacked the whelk and drew Adam into Teferi.

Now, let me digress shortly. It seems like every single time that somebody drops Teferi in the type 4 games bad things happen. Like, the biggest Bullseye ever goes on his head (both the player and Teferi) and he usually doesn't live through two more turns. It's like people don't like the idea of a "hey - Fuck your countermagic" guy on the table. Who'da thunk?

Anyway, a couple counterspells are traded (I use the Draining Whelk to take care of somebody's last one), and Teferi Resolves. Thank god for that last pick Flowstone Overseer who hit the table two turns ago. As predicted, Adam eats a Darksteel Colossus and Corpse Dance'd Vampiric Dragon on consecutive turns. This makes me a target, now that I have a "Hey - your guy is dead!" guy on the table as well as the ridiculous card draw from Chronicler. (he's nasty)

I end up having to Once More with Feeling (with force backup - you'll recall that alternate costs like Bringers, Paying life, morphing, and 'forceing' don't cost your 1 spell for the turn), and never regretting it. I land a Kokusho on my next turn, which dies to something terrible like blocking. That's pretty freaking awesome with two other players in the game (Herbig and.... bryant? I think we had six, orrigionally, but I know it was just the three of us when I time-twistered). Well, I end up Prophetic Bolting Bryant out of the game, then prepare to do battle with Herbig. He rips an Eternal Dragon.

Fuck.

Stupid Kor-Haven finding coming backing Eternal Dragon.

Anyway, there's a while while I take ten before I find blockers (nothing as awesome as a rainbow Efreet, though). I eventually draw into Ertai's Meddling, and cast it as he plays his Dragon. Mike arcane denials or whatever, then I play Commandeer (PITCHING TWO BLUE CARDS OH MY GOD I'M CUMMING), for the win. I then do Azurious Guild Mage beats until he submits (he had pulse for a couple turns or something before I dismissed it).

Yeah. Type 4 is awesome when you win. And wicked shitty when you lose.

[on1y0ne]

Yeah. Type 4 is awesome when you win. And wicked shitty when you lose.

When I am the first one to die in a type 4 game, I take it as a compliment, meaning I was the one who was feared the most.

[Wallace]

Type 4 can be really fun with some Un cards included.

AWOL
Strategy Schmategy
"Ach! Hans, Run!"
Once More with feeling
Blast from the Past
Uktabi Kong
Spell Counter
Yet another Aether Vortex
Infernal Spawn of Evil
Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil

Be sure to listen to the people that you play type 4 with. If they don't think a card is fun/fair then look into it. I have removed many cards from my Stack for this reason.

[Nightmare]

Be sure to listen to the people that you play type 4 with. If they don't think a card is fun/fair then look into it. I have removed many cards from my Stack for this reason.
Not enough. Your stack is still a huge random-ass pile.

[Wallace]

Not enough. Your stack is still a huge random-ass pile.


Thats how I like it, very random..I like to include some of my fav. creatures and Spells. And how would you know what my stack looks like, you haven't played with it in a long time. I am down to around 400 cards and have cut a lot of the shit out of it.

[Nightmare]

Thats how I like it, very random..I like to include some of my fav. creatures and Spells. And how would you know what my stack looks like, you haven't played with it in a long time. I am down to around 400 cards and have cut a lot of the shit out of it.400 is still a pretty huge stack. Mine is around 250-275.

[al the great]

Thats how I like it, very random..I like to include some of my fav. creatures and Spells. And how would you know what my stack looks like, you haven't played with it in a long time. I am down to around 400 cards and have cut a lot of the shit out of it.

Dang 400 is a ton. I think mine has like 150 or less and that crap's already big imo. I am also breaking some rules like I have multiples of the same card in there but they're at least useful instant/sorcery cards that respond to big stuff like Darksteel Colo or Platty.

[Wallace]

So I just did a count and I have 385 in my Type 4 stack. I know that I include a lot of cards some people don't play with in there stacks, but I like to include cycles of cards and this keeps the numbers up.

Cycles:

5 Invasion Dragons
5 Invasion Dragon Charms
5 Bringers
5 Myojin
5 Planer Chaos Dragons

I also use basic Counterspell and Cancel, I'm sure if you ask the 4 to 6 people that regularly use my stack they will say it's fine.

[freakish777]

Infernal Spawn of Evil


This is basically my favorite T4 card ever.

[Hoojo]

Thanks for the suggestions. The Un-cards are something I hadn't thought about, since I don't own any. I was aiming at creating a stack of about 300 cards for a 4 to 5 person group.

[Corg]

The way I see it, Type 4 is a home for cards that are either too expensive, too narrow, or too Un- to see play anywhere else. There's usually room for a single 'mascot' as well. (I've seen Teferi's Imp used to good effect in this slot.) That's why my Type 4 uncommons-only stack kinda crashed and burned - everything was moderately costed, moderately powerful, and very boring.

Seriously, it's bad when Jetting Glasskite is staring you down, and you hope you have Venomspout Brackus + Putrefy to deal with it. Compare that to Glarecaster + channelled Arashi for 60. It's a swingy, big format - almost like Fluxx + Magic, and if you play it that way, I'm sure it will be good times all around.

[Di]

I remember playing a game in between rounds at the UMTW in November, and I killed all 5 of my opponents. At the end of the game, I remember having in play Mind's Eye, Rimescale Dragon, Bringer of the White Dawn and Mindslaver, and a full grip with mostly good cards but mentionables were Blast from the Past and Spell Burst. I've yet to see anyone have as controlling of a game that I did.

[Ebinsugewa]

Mike arcane denials or whatever, then I play Commandeer (PITCHING TWO BLUE CARDS OH MY GOD I'M CUMMING), for the win.

Just wanted to quote that for posterity.

[Tosh]

I've got a funny T4 story. So a bunch of us were playing T4 and we were about 5-6 turns in. The game was pretty much a stale mate with each player having like 5 fatties out and one of our friends just finished with his round at the local tourney so he asked to join. He drew his hand and first he played the white Myojin and the next player's turn he used Shriveling Rot (entwined 'cuz why not) and popped the divinity counter off the myojin and we all died.

Question for you guys: How do you configure the deck? I've played that each player take a roughly equal portion of the stack and uses that as their library, players all draw from one big stack, or draft your decks (this takes a while though).

[TrialByFire]

Question for you guys: How do you configure the deck? I've played that each player take a roughly equal portion of the stack and uses that as their library, players all draw from one big stack, or draft your decks (this takes a while though).


I always play seperate libraries. As I have search, it takes less time this way

[tpnp]

...players all draw from one big stack...
This is how my local group plays our T4 stack. If we have 6+ people, I'll split the deck into two or more piles just so we don't have to pass the library around.

[Metaknight]

...draft your decks...

this is the way i prefer to do it, but you are right that it takes quite some time. But of course the stack that i use is only about 150-180 cards, so its not that bad.

[Zach Tartell]

Can we get a list of land people are playing? Other than tolarian waterpark, of course.

I was just hitting up star city for commons and uncommons to put a stack together for myself and came up with the following:

-Kor Haven (it's a plains!)
-Maze of Ith
-The one from Rav block that prevents damage from a source
-The double striek land from Rav
-This is where the list starts to suck
-Oh, that "creatures have flash" land from weatherlight

[Nihil Credo]

Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Academy Ruins
Arena
Bazaar of Baghdad?
With recursion: Glacial Chasm, Horizon Canopy
Some of the hideaway lands (the green one in particular should be almost always active)
Karakas
Miren, the Moaning Well
Urza's Factory maybe?
Oh, and the great Island of Wak-Wak!

[Bane of the Living]

We've decided that anything goes as long as it cant immediately win the game. Phage the Untouchable is in the deck so is Battle of Wits. The stack is really large so the big hits are rarely seen and counterspells if used sparingly prevent degenerate plays.

Some of my favorites include..

Future Sight
Izzet Guildmage
Azorious Guildmage
Whispers of the Muse
Wits End
Forbid
Reverse the Sands
Memnarch

We play with one deck and one graveyard to make cards like Misinformation amazing and graveyard effects more dramatic. But we take a stack off the 800 card deck to represent the lib for search/tutor cards.

DISCLAIMER

Type 4 may be fun but it does cripple your playtesting sessions!

[hi-val]

Lonely, get the Portal Counterspell and Remove Soul too.

[Zach Tartell]

Lonely, get the Portal Counterspell and Remove Soul too.

You mean starter? I'm pretty much sure that portal didn't include either of those.

Edit:
It seems to me that there are several pretty basic needs when constructing a stack:
-Countermagic
-Stupid, over-costed things like Tower of Draw 4, Aladin "The shotgun"'s ring, and other, crazy artifacts
-Broken Enchantments, like Name Dropping, Holistic Wisdom, Greater Good, and.... well, there was another
-Reset buttons, like wrath effects, and "once more with feeling" and stuff of that ilk; the sort of, "Wow - I have to deal with everything before my next turn or I lose" sort of things (deed, Ob stone, ect)
-Cute creature tricks: Morph-related shenanigans, Voidmage Husher and stuff like that, and.... well, my list maker is broken, apparently
-Removal (spot, not mass), like Krosan Grip, Dismaltling Blow, and spot creature removal like Swords, all kinds of nasty black instants
-Draw stuff (Fact, Gifts Ungiven, Opportunity, and other "draw more than 1" card cards)
-Beaters

The problem is, I can't think of creatures (that are cheap enough for me to pick up for a buck or two) that are bigger than the unfortunate 1/1 post-morph wizard guys. I mean, like, what are some good ones? Karavek the Merciless, Nivmizzet, Darksteel Colosus, Flowstone Overseer...

But four or five creatures don't really make enough beaters for a ~200 card stack

[Corg]

Big Rare Guys?

Jiwari and Arashi should be in there. Magma Giant, Tornado Elemental, and Bosh are good, too. Aboroth fills out your "what-the-hell-who-plays-with-that" slot nicely; Iname as One is nice if you want to introduce a Spirit sub-theme. The Myojin might be nice (except the black one - "lol everyone discard" will draw either a counterspell or a kick to the groin). Tomb of Urami is usually an uncounterable 5/5 flier with no drawback that doesn't use your spell for the turn. Isao, Enlightened Yamabushi can hold the ground all day...

Geez, that's a lot of Kamigawa. But if there's a home for splashy, too-expensive, I-never-thought-I'd-see-that-card-again shenanigans, it's Type 4.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm not sure about the balance here: I'm looking for suggestions

Counterspells (37):
Rewind
Cancel
Force of Will
Commandeer
Discombobulate
Burnout
Controvert
Hinder
Vex
Soulsworn Jury (this guy and the next are kind of cute)
Brine Shaman
Exclude
Envelop
Spite // Malice
Flash Counter
Thwart (I’m gonna change the alternate cost to “Return three permanents you control”)
Faerie Trickery
Voidmage Apprentice (might count as utility?)
Withering Boon
Annul
Memory Lapse
Assert Authority
Fervent Denial
Dismal Failure
Rebuff the Wicked
Confound
Foil (Alternate cost being RFG another card in your hand, making it a strictly better FOW)
Muddle the Mixture
Perplex
Induce Paranoia
Overwhelming Intellect
Dispersal Shield
Dismiss
Spell Burst
Hydromorph Gull
Intervene
Spell Counter

Charms (9):
Dawn Charm
Ebony Charm
Fury Charm
Crosis’s Charm
Darigaaz’s Charm
Dromar’s Charm
Raith’s Charm (I’m relatively sure I spelled this one wrong)
Treva’s Charm
Emerald Charm

Utility Creatures (and spells)(48):
Gorilla Shaman
Reito Lantern
Deepfire Elemental
Hallow
Azorious Ploy
Reap and Sow
Trial // Error
Izzet Guildmage
Azorius Guildmage
Shield of the Ages
Cauldron Dance
Quiet Speculation
Flaring Pain
Smokespew Invoker
Echo Tracer
Flowstone Overseer
Panacea
Reality Ripple
Eternal Witness
Ray of Command
Grinning Totem
Mourner’s Shield
Dominate
Coffin Purge
Dematerialize
Embolden
Cabal Executioner
Chain of Acid
Crowd Favorites
Riptide Shapeshifter
Nightscape Battlemage
Stormscape Battlemage
Sunscape Battlemage
Festival of the Guildpact
Clutch of the Undercity
Clone
Frontline Strategist
Descendant of Soramaro
Aven Liberator
Gaze of Adamaro
Karona’s Zealot
Capsize (I could see this being too broken)
Invulnerability
Clockspinning (I read it in a type 4 report Smennendian put up)
Coral Trickster (Too many morph creatures?)
Snapback
Voidmage Husher
Spirit Flare (Removal maybe?)(Too many flashback spells?)

Spot Removal (20):
Death Mutation
Rend Flesh
Chill to the bone
Wrecking Ball
Slaughter
Agonizing Demise
Essence Vortex (I like the idea of giving a choice)
Annihilate
Chastise
Spite // Malice
Skinthinner
Weed Strangle
Betrayal of Flesh (Changing the entwine to pay three life or something)
Cruel Revival
Death Bomb
Disembowel
Fissure
Phthisis (how do you pronounce this?)
Kill! Destroy! (this is like the coolest card ever)
Radiant’s Judgment

Disenchant Stuff (17):
Orim’s Thunder
Smash
Icefall
Shattering Pulse
Allay
Dismantling Blow
Rain of Rust
Wreak Havoc
Nantuko Vigilante
Return to Dust
Daru Sanctifier
Molder
Divine Offering
Altar’s Light
Ancient Grudge
Ray of Distortion
Seed Spark

Mass Removal:
Plague Wind
Inferno
Wrath of God
Akroma’s Vengance
Forced March
Dregs of Sorrow
Deed
Nevvy’s Disk


Beats/Fat/cool Creatures:
Jetting Glasskite
Death-Mask Duplicant
Bloodfire Colossus
Duplicant
Eternal Dragon
Beast Attack
Greater Morphling (I don’t recall if he was too broken or not)
Uktabi Kong (Counts as a disenchant effect)
Teferi

Oh Shit I’ma Drawin Cards!(stuff that promotes Card Advantage):
Heed the Mists
Grim Harvest
Fullbottom Feast
Vanish into Memory
Murmurs from Beyond
Blast from the Past (there isn’t anywhere else to put it)
Opportunity

Reset Buttons:
Sway of the Stars
Once More With Feeling

Land:
Prahv, Spires of Order
Maze of Ith
Kor Haven (it’s a plains!)
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion

Enchantments and Artifacts:
Phantasmal Terrain (this might be too much weak sauce)
Greater Good
Holistic Wisdom
Righteous Aura
Scroll Rack
Name Dropping
Tower of Draw 4

[Tosh]

Not enough dudes IMO.

Suggestions:
Meteor Storm
Stormscale Anarch
Grizzly Fate
Whispers of the Muse
Krosan Cloudscraper
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Coffin Queen
Dimir Doppleganger
(the Nephalims)
(the Invasion Dragons)
(the Planar Chaos Dragons)
(the Myojins)
Incendiary Command
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Kaervek the Merciless
Alexi, Zephyr Mage
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Vernal Equinox

[Metaknight]

so shoot me if this is just too bad, but what about Grozoth? 9/9 beater, that tutors up plague wind. seems funny/good.

[Zach Tartell]

I can't believe I forgot him. He's the coolest thign ever.