Leyline Orgies

[Tacosnape]

This is officially the weirdest thing I've ever had happen in a game.

Here's the situation. I'm playing an experimental version of Ichorid, and my opponent is playing some bizarre U/B Zombie deck. I lose game one and decide to play first in game 2.

In game 2, my opening hand consists of both a Leyline of Singularity and a Leyline of the Void. My opponent's opening hand also consists of both a Leyline of Singularity and a Leyline of the Void. And he had a Gemstone Caverns.

While I'm willing to bet this will never again happen in a game of magic, here are my questions.

1. How do we make our choices without indicating to our opponent how many Leylines / which Leylines we intend to place into play, therefore giving an opponent an advantage? Does the active player make Leyline choices first? And are these choices made public to the opponent? And what's the appropriate etiquette for communications on this front?

2. Where does each Leyline go assuming that we both start with both of our Leylines in play?

Situation 2 is what happened, but if my choices as the active player were public knowledge, my opponent could theoretically have held his Leyline of Singularity back to discard to his Gemstone Caverns.

Thanks.

[mujadaddy]

That's awesome. I've got no rules insight, but that's awesome.

[HammafistRoob]

Wait, your playing Ichorid right? Why are you running Leyline of Singularity? To pwn your own deck?

[Pinder]

Wait, your playing Ichorid right? Why are you running Leyline of Singularity? To pwn your own deck?

Actually, Leyline of Singularity is pretty good against anything that wants to have more than one of anything in play, and totally pwns the shit out of Aggro in most cases (especially Goblins, or any sort of weenie). I agree though, that it doesn't seem to fit in Ichorid very well.

But that's not the point. I don't have time to quote rules or anything, but I believe that everyone makes the decisions of what Leyline to put into play, then they all enter play at the same time (similar to how everyone chooses IGG cards, then reveal them all at the same time).

In the case of the Leyline's abilities, I think the game starts with all of them in play, and then the game checks for state-based effects and immediately puts all of them into their owner's graveyards. The Caverns is unaffected because there isn't another copy and it was already Legendary.

And I think Caverns comes into play the same time all the Leylines do, too.

[Barook]

This is one of the reasons why I love MWS - a fast way to find the right rulings: :laugh:


101.Ruling.1 - The Leyline cards from Guildpact happen after players are satisfied with their hands, but before the first player takes his or her turn. Each player chooses, in turn order, which Leylines to put into play, then they all reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously. These are put into play directly without playing them. They cannot be countered. The player who will be going first determines the timestamp order among Leylines that start the game in play.

[freakish777]

Uh, actually, Leyline of Singularity shouldn't affect the tokens? They don't actually have a name, and the Legend Rule checks names, correct? Or am I smoking crack?

Barook and Pinder are correct, basically at the start of the game, you each set aside cards face-down saying "these are cards I'm going to start the game in play with." What I'm unsure of, is whether the number of Leylines/Caverns is declared, or is hidden until both players flip them over. If it's hidden, I'm going to have to remember to bluff having a card to start the game in play with at some point.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Uh, actually, Leyline of Singularity shouldn't affect the tokens? They don't actually have a name, and the Legend Rule checks names, correct?

Echoing Truth bounces all goblin tokens. They have a name in that case.

[Barook]

Or am I smoking crack?

I guess so.

Tokens always have a name. There are special cases like Dark Depths where the token as a name on its own, but in general, the tokens have the same name like the creature type stated on the card that created the tokens.

Examples:
Empty the Warrens creates tokens named "Goblin".
Goblin Trenches creates tokens named "Goblin Soldier".

That's the ruling as far as I can remember it because I'm too lazy looking it up. It also explains how and why Echoing Truth works on multiple tokens.

[Brushwagg]

They don't actually have a name

They do have names "Zombie Token" , "Goblin Token" etc..

@Taco's question: Can we get a judge to rule on that?

[Tacosnape]

For the record, yes, I am aware of the complete dissynergy between Leyline of Singularity and Bridge From Below. I said it was a highly experimental version of Ichorid and I wasn't kidding. I largely use MWS as a method of testing really radical ideas/decks that I don't expect to work but want to try just to be sure.

[quicksilver]

Once all players have kept their opening hands, if any cards in the starting player’s hand allow that player to begin the game with those cards in play, he or she may put any or all of them into play. Then each other player, in turn order, may do the same.

The player going second would have the advantage in this situation. The first player would play out his 2 leylines, then the second player could decided if he wanted to play his leyline of sigularity too or not.


Does the active player make Leyline choices first The term active player doesn't apply here, that is only once the game starts, the correct phrasing would be the player going first decides first.




Uh, actually, Leyline of Singularity shouldn't affect the tokens? They don't actually have a name, and the Legend Rule checks names, correct? Or am I smoking crack?
Short answer: you're smoking crack
Less short answer: When a card says somehting like put a zombie token into play, the token has both the creature type zombie and the name zombie. Leyline of singularity will kill multiple tokens of the same name.

[Barook]

The player going second would have the advantage in this situation. The first player would play out his 2 leylines, then the second player could decided if he wanted to play his leyline of sigularity too or not.

Wait, what? :confused:

Can you give us the exact rule passage? Because this is NOT what the official 101.Ruling.1 says - both reveal them at the same time, so nobody has the advantage.

Anyway, here's more Leyline goodness, coming from the FAQ:


- If the game starts with more than one Leyline of Singularity in play, they will each be put into their owners' graveyards right after the upkeep of the first turn starts. If the game started with multiple copies of any other Leylines in play, they'll be put into the graveyard at the same time.

So, let's sum it up:

Both of you choose which Leylines you put in play, then both of you reveal your choices at the same time. Then they're put into play, time stamp, etc., then all multiple Leylines go into the graveyard if there is at least one Singularity in play.

So no, your opponent can't hold back his Leyline to wait for your own Leyline.

Hope this helps.

[Dilettante]

To settle this, here is the excerpt from the Comprehensive Rules:

"101.5. Once all players have kept their opening hands, if any cards in the starting player’s hand allow that player to begin the game with those cards in play, he or she may put any or all of them into play. Then each other player, in turn order, may do the same."

Second player has advantage.

[quicksilver]

Wait, what? :confused:

Can you give us the exact rule passage? Because this is NOT what the official 101.Ruling.1 says - both reveal them at the same time, so nobody has the advantage.

That IS the exact ruling. I just copied and pasted it directly out of the comprehensive rulebook (the very first quote).

I don't know where you got your information from but the comprehensive rules states most clearly that each player does it seperatly.

Again I will copy and paste the exact ruling for you from the definitive source of rules information:


101.5. Once all players have kept their opening hands, if any cards in the starting player’s hand allow that player to begin the game with those cards in play, he or she may put any or all of them into play. Then each other player, in turn order, may do the same.





This is completly wrong:

So, let's sum it up:

Both of you choose which Leylines you put in play, then both of you reveal your choices at the same time. Then they're put into play, time stamp, etc., then all multiple Leylines go into the graveyard if there is at least one Singularity in play.

So no, your opponent can't hold back his Leyline to wait for your own Leyline.

Hope this helps.

[Masticor]

http://magiccards.info/gp/en/29.html

If the game starts with more than one Leyline of Singularity in play, they will each be put into their owners' graveyards right after the upkeep of the first turn starts. If the game started with multiple copies of any other Leylines in play, they'll be put into the graveyard at the same time. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

So, in this case you start the game with all your Leylines in the Graveyard.

[quicksilver]

http://magiccards.info/gp/en/29.html

If the game starts with more than one Leyline of Singularity in play, they will each be put into their owners' graveyards right after the upkeep of the first turn starts. If the game started with multiple copies of any other Leylines in play, they'll be put into the graveyard at the same time. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

So, in this case you start the game with all your Leylines in the Graveyard.

Unless your opponent choices not to play his leyline of singularity after you play yours out.

[Dilettante]

Unless your opponent choices not to play his leyline of singularity after you play yours out.

What he was pointing out... was that the second player gets no benefit for 'Legend-ruling' your Leylines out of play and then subsequently playing Leylines to only have them in play... but does get the benefit of choice in determining whether or not to play the Leyline.

[Lego]

They do have names "Zombie Token" , "Goblin Token" etc..

Actually, they're just "Goblin" , "Zombie" , etc. Unless the effect that created them specifies a name, their name is the same as their Creature Type.

[Anusien]

Yeah, just like Quicksilver said.

Less short answer: When a card says somehting like put a zombie token into play, the token has both the creature type zombie and the name zombie. Leyline of singularity will kill multiple tokens of the same name.