Shadowmoor Info [Archive] - Page 2

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 09:25 PM

I think Lightning Storm is a better option. It seems unnecessary to rely on the grave when you don't have to. You need one more SSG, but I think the advantage is greater than the cost. And I think the instant speed is worth it as well.

If you draw your whole deck, then the extra mana isnt really going to matter at that point. The whole dies to Leyline thing makes Conflagrate worse than Lightning Storm probably. Oh yeah, and instant win is significant.

rasmus_agren@hotmail.com

03-30-2008, 09:27 PM

It's more a matter of not diluting your deck with suboptimal cards. But since you'll want acceleration anyways I guess that 3/4 SSG are ok.

Sanguine Voyeur

03-30-2008, 09:30 PM

Why not run both to avoid Extirpate? A two one split of Storms and Conflagrates.

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 09:34 PM

It's more a matter of not diluting your deck with suboptimal cards. But since you'll want acceleration anyways I guess that 3/4 SSG are ok.

Well, I was kind of assuming 4 SSG anyway. Might end up with some number of Chrome Moxes in addition.

rasmus_agren@hotmail.com

03-30-2008, 09:34 PM

Why not run both to avoid Extirpate? A two one split of Storms and Conflagrates.

Maybe, but it might also be overkill. You will most likely win without the combo kill if you draw your deck.

TeenieBopper

03-30-2008, 09:37 PM

First [IMG]

With this you could throw in 1 or two spell books to keep the forty cards in your hand and with all the counter backup you draw you dont even need to win immediately.

Stock up on your Spellbooks now. They're the next Tarmogoyf. Mark my words.

Pinder

03-30-2008, 09:38 PM

Throw in some Chrome Moxen to speed the entire combo up and this sounds actually decent.

What's the best color combination to go? U/R? Blue would give you draw/library manipulation and protection in form of FoW and Daze.

I was thinking UR, and it's probably best because you get Force/Daze/Brainstorm/Ponder, etc etc.

Another thing I though of was GWR. The reason for this is because I totally noticed that Swan's Song is a Bird Spirit, and for some reason I'm really enamoured with Spirit Stompy/Tallowisp type decks for some reason.

Since you can play it for 2WW, it fits pretty nicely into the curve alongside Phantom Centaur et al, and allows you to go Aggro if you can't combo for some reason (just go Armadillo Cloak on their ass). Also, being able to Tutor up Auras gets you Pattern of Rebirth, too. You would of course run red for Lightning Recall, Chain of Win, Conflagrate, and Simian Spirit Guide.

Best part? 4 Maindeck SSG because it's a fucking Ape Spirit. This is all probably too slow and expensive, but a Spirit Stompy/Aggro deck with an incidental combo backup win seems really fun, at least.

edit - Just read all the posts above about Lightning Storm. You could probably safely replace all instances of 'Conflagrate' in this post with 'Lightning Storm'.

raharu

03-30-2008, 09:42 PM

rasmus_agren@hotmail.com

03-30-2008, 09:43 PM

I also think that this fits better in an aggro shell than in an all-out-combo shell. There are quite a lot of things that kill the combo and Swans' Song is an awsome card on its own.

Pinder

03-30-2008, 09:45 PM

Couldn't this just be a storm combo draw engine? Draw a bunch of cards, Explorations + Moxen (chrome and the land pitch mox, and maybeh accel-lnds for Exploration, maybe even Utopia Sprawls)> play a bunch of spells, Storm for whatever.

How many Storm combo decks do you know that run creatures and burn? I fail to see how using this as a Storm enabler is better than, say, running any number of the successful storm decks in the format (TES, IGGy, Fetchland Tendrils, etc. etc.)

raharu

03-30-2008, 09:50 PM

How many Storm combo decks do you know that run creatures and burn? I fail to see how using this as a Storm enabler is better than, say, running any number of the successful storm decks in the format (TES, IGGy, Fetchland Tendrils, etc. etc.)
A midrange control deck with a plan B in the MD (agro with Swan's Song/ others) Force of Will, MD removal, Orim's Chant possibly main. I'm not sure how it would look, but the idea sounds damn sexy on paper.

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 09:50 PM

With Lightning Storm, what happens if your opponent has a bunch of lands in their hand and burns you out as well? Hell, even 1 land could kill you if they highjack your storm at the right time.

raharu

03-30-2008, 09:51 PM

rasmus_agren@hotmail.com

03-30-2008, 09:52 PM

With Lightning Storm, what happens if your opponent has a bunch of lands in their hand and burns you out as well? Hell, even 1 land could kill you if they highjack your storm at the right time.

It's not a storm spell. You just battle for control of the spell. And you will win that battle :smile:

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 09:54 PM

It's not a storm spell. You just battle for control of the spell. And you will win that battle :smile:

Ahhh, I get it now. Thanks.

Pinder

03-30-2008, 09:56 PM

A midrange control deck with a plan B in the MD (agro with Swan's Song/ others) Force of Will, MD removal, Orim's Chant possibly main. I'm not sure how it would look, but the idea sounds damn sexy on paper.

Right. I think the best way to do it is to have a deck that can win with the combo, but doesn't necessarily have to. Storm would take up too many slots, and there are better options available.

Honestly, I think that the best thing this combo has going for it is that it's Extended legal. As it stands, I'm not sure it will make that huge of an impact in Legacy.

raharu

03-30-2008, 09:58 PM

It's not a storm spell. You just battle for control of the spell. And you will win that battle :smile:
Oh yeah, with you hand consisting of (DECK) I think you'll have more lands than them. This concept is growing to stupid proportions rather rapidly. I think that CTop would be good here. Trickbind to stop the opponent from dicking with Lightinig Storm after you make it leathal?

Sanguine Voyeur

03-30-2008, 10:00 PM

Aside: Redcaps (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/Wallpaper_SHM_1280x1024.jpg) are a monster from the D&D Monster Manual III. Does this mean there will be a Mind Flayer card?

Pinder

03-30-2008, 10:02 PM

This concept is growing to stupid proportions rather rapidly.

Eh, while we're there, I might as well suggest 1 MD Overmaster. 1 SSG for the Overmaster, 3 for the Lightning Storm. Seems like a good fit.

edit - Just make sure you don't deck yourself with it :laugh:.

raharu

03-30-2008, 10:07 PM

Right. I think the best way to do it is to have a deck that can win with the combo, but doesn't necessarily have to. Storm would take up too many slots, and there are better options available.

Honestly, I think that the best thing this combo has going for it is that it's Extended legal. As it stands, I'm not sure it will make that huge of an impact in Legacy.
There are eablers that might make the combo more resilient here than in other formats (i.e. Extended, possibly Vintage, where nonsense like this is rampant). Isn't Chain Plasma set to rotate out next year? That may provide more impetus for it's development here.

On a sidenote: Hulk ne1? Aren't there ways to use certaint pieces from the yard in the combo? Brainstorm the rest back into the deck, play some acceleration (perhaps Mox Diamond?) and win off the back of Seething Song > Through the Breach > Hulk win.

It seems to me like this whole idea is "Danger of Cool Things" laden, but I think that's how combos start. I mean, "hey guise, lets play a bunch of spells in one turn, have some graveyard recursion, and do leathal, all before turn two!!". Kinda sounds like the motivation behind SI/ TES, no?

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 10:10 PM

On a sidenote: Hulk ne1? Aren't there ways to use certaint pieces from the yard in the combo? Brainstorm the rest back into the deck, play some acceleration (perhaps Mox Diamond?) and win off the back of Seething Song > Through the Breach > Hulk win.

But then you have to have all those cards + the Hulk combo in your deck. Sounds craptacular.

Barook

03-30-2008, 10:11 PM

On a sidenote: Hulk ne1? Aren't there ways to use certaint pieces from the yard in the combo? Brainstorm the rest back into the deck, play some acceleration (perhaps Mox Diamond?) and win off the back of Seething Song > Through the Breach > Hulk win.

It seems to me like this whole idea is "Danger of Cool Things" laden, but I think that's how combos start. I mean, "hey guise, lets play a bunch of spells in one turn, have some graveyard recursion, and do leathal, all before turn two!!". Kinda sounds like the motivation behind SI/ TES, no?

Why do you want to crapify the idea of the combo with wasting tons of slots for an unnecessary combo that is weak to LotV? :confused:

Jaynel

03-30-2008, 10:14 PM

I'd much rather play a Coldsnap crap rare. That just seems a whole lot more satisfying.

Edit: It's not even a rare! Even better!

raharu

03-30-2008, 10:19 PM

bigbear102

03-30-2008, 10:30 PM

Seeing as how you are going to have 2 Islands in play to cast Swan, and this is probably going to be a midrange combo that doesn't go off until turn 3-5, it could play Thwart. It's protection and also puts the land you need into your hand to make sure. It's probably over-kill, and most likely not worth it, but I figured I'd mention it.

xsockmonkeyx

03-30-2008, 10:32 PM

Yeah... I get a few too many steps in front of my self when retarded interactions like this surface. Lightning Storm is pretty sexy, considering how hard it is to stop and how easy it is to protect. At any rate, you should have 4 Forces + pitch material in hand when you combo off, so at the least, it's not going to be easy to stop by any means.

If you take the deck the combo route, then the strategy would be to Play Swan, then Chain it without passing priority, or play Swan Song and protect/pray it doesnt die for a turn until you can Chain it. So you either need to accelerate into 6-7 mana (Daze) or protect your Swan. If going for strategy #2 then Misdirection becomes another option to protect your Swan for free.

Given that you need to find two different kind of card for the combo, you might consider Lim-Dul's Vault, a-la Flash, but then it's a 3 color deck. Maybe Intuition would work.

raharu

03-30-2008, 11:02 PM

Perhaps something like the DracoExplosion shell?

Pinder

03-31-2008, 12:11 AM

Back on topic, Previews started a few minutes ago:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/SHM_19_anrm8q3.jpg

It's sort of like Trike, but not as good. Cool thing, though, is that it gets bigger every time it hits a creature. Hate the 7 cost, though.

Also,

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/451_n5z7j5l.jpg

This guy just sort of sucks, IMO.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/making/mr325_v7qljy7p.jpg

Not sure what to think about this one...it's like a walking humility (well, a flying Humility). Apparently it's part of the same cycle as Demigod of Revenge.

Cire

03-31-2008, 12:24 AM

Umm... i think my Spirit Truck Deck got a big boost, first that Swan song that makes me all excited with the chain of plasma combo, and then theres godhead of Awe

(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)
4/4 - spirit avatar
flying
all other creatures are 1/1

wow..... go spirits!

from Cairo

03-31-2008, 01:06 AM

It's like Humility only they retain all their abilities and creatures in general are much easier to kill than enchantments... ie its not that much like Humility, seems pretty bad for constructed, wouldn't mind cracking one in sealed/draft though. :laugh:

Rhys and the Scarecrow/Trike thing seem very 'meh' too.

Swan's Song seems cool though at least it seems like it has potential to shake things up a bit in Extended, maybe be a pretty fun/busted deck... the combo is sorta mana intensive though unless spread over multiple turns... 3UUR. :rolleyes:

Shion

03-31-2008, 04:18 AM

Here's the rest of the spoiled cards so far, For those that don't go to MTGS very often.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/7wzxlmxcln_EN.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/k9s54d6ll0_EN.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/9ifgp6krz6_EN.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/h3mvc4c3ze_EN.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/rpfhvpenby_EN.jpg

And here's some translated from a Japanese source.

Names are not confirmed.

Order of White-Clay :1::w::w:
Creature -- Kithkin Cleric (R)
1/4
:1::w::w:, [Q]: Return target creature card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to play. ([Q] is an untap symbol.)

Shion

03-31-2008, 04:19 AM

More from Japanese source. Double posted due to image limit, cursed smilies.

Curse of Chains :1::wu:
Enchantment -- Aura (C)
Enchant creature
At the beginning of each upkeep, tap enchanted creature.

Swan of Bryn Argoll :2::wu::wu:
Creature -- Bird Spirit (R)
4/3
Flying
If a source would deal damage to Swan of Bryn Argoll , prevent that damage. That source's controller draws cards equal to the damage prevented this way.

Morthridden Witch :1::rg:
Creature -- Goblin Shaman (U)
2/1
:r::g:: Each blocked creature gets +1/+0 and gains trample until end of turn.

Sek'Kuar

03-31-2008, 08:26 AM

I know that we're trying to stay on topic, but about the combo, wouldn't Library of Leng be better than Spellbook, because instead of losing those cards from the discard, they would feed back into the deck...

Im not sure if its significant enough, but I figured it couldn't hurt to point it out.

rasmus_agren@hotmail.com

03-31-2008, 08:33 AM

Neither Spellbook nor Library of Leng are worth playing. Either build the deck to win when you draw you deck (with for example SSG and Lightning Storm) or win by the massive card advantage/quality.

technogeek5000

03-31-2008, 08:47 AM

I really am liking the untap mechanic. Leech bonder, while not playable in legacy, looks extremely flavorful and maybe we can get something else in this set with the untap mechanic and/or -1/-1 counter thats playable in legacy.

Edit: Also persist seems like a really cool mechanic

Barook

03-31-2008, 08:56 AM

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/making/mr325_v7qljy7p.jpg

God, I hate it when Wizards recycles rejected art.

Seems to play nicely along with the -1/-1 counters-theme. And I like it how it turns Goblin Sharpshooter into John Rambo.

Maveric78f

03-31-2008, 10:42 AM

Order of White-Clay is a bomb (particularly in the isamaru's deck). I'm doubtful for the rest.

C.P.

03-31-2008, 11:20 AM

So, back to the Swan, any idea on how the mirror would play out?

Assuming you would pack stuff like Misdirection, which would be FTW.

Wallace

03-31-2008, 11:36 AM

C.P.

03-31-2008, 11:42 AM

Ashenmoor Warrior*

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manabr.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manabr.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manabr.gifCreature - Elemental Warriorhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-uncommon.gifAshenmoor Warrior can't block.4/4

Now to get away from the swan talk, I really like this guy...a 4/4 for a cc of 3 just seems nice...

He's Bad. Who plays 3 mana 4/4s when you can have Goyf?

Joke aside, BBB seems bit prohibitive. He can only be played in B/x Disruption, and even then he's probably not too great. Only spot that He can take from those decks are:

Negator (already out of favor thanks to the Goyf)
Shade
Tombstalker.

He could be better than Negator, but not better than Shade or Tombstalker.

He probably is very good in Standard and Ext, though.

Hightower

03-31-2008, 11:52 AM

Dragon Stompy! (=P)

etrigan

03-31-2008, 12:15 PM

4/4 for 3 is well above the normal curve for Red. Could see play in a theoretical RDW deck.

Nihil Credo

03-31-2008, 12:24 PM

4/4 for 3 is well above the normal curve for Red. Could see play in a theoretical RDW deck.
In that role, he'd probably be worse than Countryside Crusher.

Elfrago

03-31-2008, 02:31 PM

Honestly, I'd rather play it instead of Negator vs anything but combo.

freakish777

03-31-2008, 03:12 PM

So, back to the Swan, any idea on how the mirror would play out?

The mirror actually would come down to pushing through your own Swan first with enough back up to keep theirs off the board and possibly any Lightning Bolt attempts from them (if they Chain your Swan, you draw your library because you get to copy the Chain, and then you control all the copies... g.f.g.), and beating down or resolving a your own Chain/Bolt at some later point.

Here's a list:

//spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain of Plasma
1 Conflagerate/Lightning Storm

//protection
3 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 Wipe Away

//dudes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swan

//mana
4 Chrome Mox
8 Fetches
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

//sb
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chain Lightning (go up to as many Recalls in the mirror as possible)
1 Tormod's Crypt

So, who else is excited for the DragonStompy vs. ComboThresh vs. Ichorid metagame?

technogeek5000

03-31-2008, 04:25 PM

Do you seriously need tarmogoyf. Your combo is extremely resilient and a man plan of 4 goyfs wont win you the game when the opponent is playing 4 goyfs + the other creatures in their deck.

georgjorge

03-31-2008, 04:38 PM

Now the Swan + Chain combo is pretty sweet...but isn't there some damage source that you could play BEFORE you play Swan ? Six mana in one turn might be too much...

mercenarybdu

03-31-2008, 05:20 PM

I'll wait a bit until a full spoiler is up and running on the wizards site before ploting out what to acquire from that set in the following months after the set's launch to the general public.

But I'd have to say that as more and more of the set is being revealed, I might buy some of the cards from that set as they could fit in more than just a few prototypes by the way they have upped up the elevation of hybrid cards that I tend to like when it comes to construction.

If the set is great overall I might add more than just 5 from that set.

iOWN

03-31-2008, 06:17 PM

Swan + Sorrow's Path? Now who's the worst card ever? *looks at Great Wall*

Zilla

03-31-2008, 07:48 PM

Here's a list:

(a list)

I'd like to see a copy of Anger in that list for the potential same-turn alpha strike. Assuming your opponent has taken some damage before the combo, you can send 16 points of damage their way the same turn (attacking with Swans and two 6/7 Goyfs you cast off four Chrome Moxen after shaping your graveyard with the Chain discards).

I just don't like the idea of sitting around for a turn (or more) giving your opponent a chance to thwart your evil plans, even if you do have 7 perfect cards to protect yourself.

Goaswerfraiejen

03-31-2008, 08:14 PM

Illissius

03-31-2008, 08:16 PM

I bet they were secretly hoping to update Eater of the Dead to use {Q} when they tried changing its errata recently.

I wonder if they'll make a Vigilance creature with it, just to fuck with people. And I can't help but notice that we haven't seen any cards with both {T} and {Q} on them, which is a whole 'nother well of design space.

freakish777

03-31-2008, 08:19 PM

I'd like to see a copy of Anger in that list for the potential same-turn alpha strike. Assuming your opponent has taken some damage before the combo, you can send 16 points of damage their way the same turn (attacking with Swans and two 6/7 Goyfs you cast off four Chrome Moxen after shaping your graveyard with the Chain discards).

I just don't like the idea of sitting around for a turn (or more) giving your opponent a chance to thwart your evil plans, even if you do have 7 perfect cards to protect yourself.

The idea was to use your Chrome Moxen to cast your 1 of Conflagerate/Lightning Storm...

The gambit is that even if your opponent played a Turn 1 Duress/Thoughtseize for Lightning Storm (or Crypt/Leyline for Conflagerate), that your "Perfect Hand" should be enough for the win.

Did you miss the 1 of, or am I missing my list being mocked?

@Technogeek: Tarmogoyf is still the best beater in the format, basically the deck assumes an Aggro control role (almost like the UGR Thresh decks), except instead of more disruption (via Moon/Stifle/Wasteland), they pack an "Oops I Win" combo... "Goyf isn't going to get there when your opponents have Goyfs too..." Have you honestly not been paying attention to tournament results? UGr Thresh decks have been getting there with Goyfs and burn spells to plow through their opponent's Goyfs.

Essentially, with the list I presented you can play Aggro/Aggro Control against Control decks (With Dudes + Burn, or Dudes + Counters), Combo against Aggro Decks (assuming you can find and play the combo quick enough, if not Goyf + Burn + Counters is still an acceptable strategy), Control against Combo decks (Counterbalance + FoW + Daze) until either Goyf or the Combo get there.

Additionally, with Chrome Mox, a Turn 1 Counterbalance can end games (see Patrick Chapin's Chase Rare Control extended deck, I tried something similar at the Winter Wonderland to no success because I was too busy trying to stuff StifleNought in the deck also).

In short, hybridization is probably the way to go, especially considering neither of these cards rely on you building the deck around them, as such, dropping them into a proven shell will provide an immediate testing benchmark that all other versions of the deck will have to do better than in order to be considered.

Post edited for mild flames. Keep it cool, bro. - Zilla

Barook

03-31-2008, 08:48 PM

I just figured out that Leech Bonder + Unstable Mutation = fun times

Opposition is another interesting combo partner.

technogeek5000

03-31-2008, 09:26 PM

@Technogeek, are you like 10 or something? Tarmogoyf is still the best beater in the format, basically the deck assumes an Aggro control role (almost like the UGR Thresh decks), except instead of more disruption (via Moon/Stifle/Wasteland), they pack an "Oops I Win" combo... "Goyf isn't going to get there when your opponents have Goyfs too..." Have you honestly not been paying attention to tournament results? UGr Thresh decks have been getting there with Goyfs and burn spells to plow through their opponent's Goyfs.

Lets start with thresh. This deck wont be able to out aggro threshold due to the fact that they have more creatures and more burn. 1 or two tarmogoyfs will not beat them. Now goblins, goyf is good at stopping goblins, but not a whole swarm of them and not by itself. If you try to swing with goyf and attack to kill they will beat you before then, even if you run burn spells. Aggro loams creatures are immensely larger and they will be mana screwing you while you are trying to go aggro so that wont work there... also bolts dont realy help here at all. The Rock has goyfs... dorans, tombstalkers, witnesses, etc.. They also run TS, stp, vindicate, and hymn to tourach and they can also recur these with witness. All i was saying that 4 goyfs ALONE wont win you the game. This deck is not UGR thresh, both of them are completely decks and thresh has more creatures, more burn, and more draw to help you find these creatures which is why it wins with its goyfs. Do not insult me, I am perfectly aware that tarmogoyf wins tournaments... but it doesnt do it alone, and especially not anymore in the current meta.

Zilla

03-31-2008, 11:16 PM

Did you miss the 1 of, or am I missing my list being mocked?
The former. Conflagrate is clearly going to be a more reliable kill in most cases. My brain just skipped over it for some reason.

MattH

04-01-2008, 12:25 AM

Chain Song discussion here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9091

Pinder

04-01-2008, 12:54 AM

Two new preview cards:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/serious/tf80_nyrmew909.jpg

Hrm. You could tap a Dreadnaught to give this guy +20/+20 in response to the triggered ability, but it probably costs too much to do anything useful. It's totally immune to death, though. So that's cool. Note how it mirrors the 10 power requirement of Mosswort Bridge, which makes me think that the rest of the cycle will mirror their respective lands. I really want to see what the Spikerock Dragon does.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/SHM_18_6rh7hlo.jpg

Again, pretty nuts, but uber super expensive. Might see play in Ideal over Honden in Extended.

mercenarybdu

04-01-2008, 01:16 AM

Nightmare

04-01-2008, 08:17 AM

I want to Brainstorm with that in play SO BAD.

Willoe

04-01-2008, 08:41 AM

What about Diminishing Returns? A draw 14 for 2uu :D (hmm, plus 4UUU for the combo card)

Barook

04-01-2008, 08:58 AM

Shit sucks, just as expected from Tuesday cards. :rolleyes:

So we're not going to get anything decent before Thursday.

Anyway, both cards seem cool, but they're really waaaaaaaaay to expensive.

And Pinder is wrong: The Troll still dies to Shriekmaw, Wrath, etc.

nopausenogain

04-01-2008, 09:05 AM

.shadowmoor look sweet! Still not covinced. I also doubt we would get anything good before Thursday as well.

.Good day

Versus

04-01-2008, 09:28 AM

If that Troll is part of a cycle and the black version has something to do with emptying both hands... I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it could be interesting.

By the way Mossbridge Troll looks like Slimer.

TrialByFire

04-01-2008, 09:53 AM

Shriekmaw does not kill the Troll. Where on Shriekmaw does it say the target creature can't be regenerated?

Dilettante

04-01-2008, 10:14 AM

A shell I can see Mossbridge Troll fitting into... is a pumping Seeker Force of sorts. With Invigorate and Berserk... 10 power on a llanowar elf isn't that unreasonable when he slogs through... They gain 3 life, lose 25.

Barook

04-01-2008, 10:57 AM

Shriekmaw does not kill the Troll. Where on Shriekmaw does it say the target creature can't be regenerated?

Ok, my bad, I thought it was a sorcery speed Terror.

Arsenal

04-01-2008, 11:45 AM

Rector + Thought Reflection in some UW control deck? Meh. Thought Reflection looks tasty if you'd be able to put it into play easily/fast.

Illissius

04-01-2008, 01:41 PM

Thought Reflection + Tomorrow + eh, Brainstorm or something = hot.

That said, I doubt it will see play. Is it stronger than Future Sight?

Goaswerfraiejen

04-01-2008, 01:56 PM

Interesting possibilities for our format:

Scarscale Ritual :1: :ub:
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Scarscale Ritual, put a -1/-1 counter on a creature you control.
Draw two cards.
Illus. Richard Sardinha

Candlefang Incinerator* :2: :r: :r:
Creature - Giant Shaman
When Candlefang Incinerator comes into play, discard a card at random. If you discard a creature card this way, then Candlefang Incinerator deals to target player an amount of damage equal to the discarded creature's power.
Illus. Jeremy Enecio 5/4

Nihil Credo

04-01-2008, 02:05 PM

Scarscale Ritual is blue-black. I can think of a couple of decks where it wouldn't completely suck (Survival with its Walls of Roots?), but I'm pretty sure it won't see play.

Candlefang Incinerator's ability is no match for the extra toughness of the almighty Balduvian Barbarians.

Nightmare

04-01-2008, 02:12 PM

Nihil Credo

04-01-2008, 02:52 PM

While we're correcting people, you mean Balduvian Horde.
You're right, of course I meant the 5/5 from Legends.

This will go on FOREVER!

Ewokslayer

04-01-2008, 03:01 PM

You're right, of course I meant the 5/5 from Legends.

Alliances

freakish777

04-01-2008, 03:40 PM

Candlefang Incinerator* :2: :r: :r:
Creature - Giant Shaman
When Candlefang Incinerator comes into play, discard a card at random. If you discard a creature card this way, then Candlefang Incinerator deals to target player an amount of damage equal to the discarded creature's power.
Illus. Jeremy Enecio 5/4

It's too bad this isn't a 4/4 for 2:r:, might be worth a slot in Dragonstompy then (it still might be, who knows).

On the plus side, it's upon resolution as opposed to an additional cost (meaning playing it with no cards in hand works).

georgjorge

04-01-2008, 05:04 PM

Apart from it being possibly playable in DS, it might be abused otherwise: Four mana means it will often be the next-to-last card in your hand....so what if the last card is a Dreadnought ? Difficult to imagine the deck where they both would meet, but then 12 damage for 4 mana is decent. Discarding a Goyf would net four to five direct damage, but then the question would be why that Goyf is still in your hand...

mujadaddy

04-01-2008, 05:24 PM

Discarding a Goyf would net four to five direct damage...
*=0 anywhere but in play.

URABAHN

04-01-2008, 05:33 PM

*=0 anywhere but in play.

Really? Then how come Ceph Breakfast's Sutured Ghoul combo works with 'goyf in the yard?

Dilettante

04-01-2008, 05:37 PM

Unfortunately, Madness is not going to be an efficient outlet. No one's going to have 7 mana sitting around... and 7 mana and 2 cards for a 4/4, 5/4, and 4 damage sounds fairly par. However, it can be the last bit of damage if you couple it with Summoner's Pact and a discard outlet. As a turn 3 play, 13 to the dome might be enough...

mujadaddy

04-01-2008, 05:39 PM

Really? Then how come Ceph Breakfast's Sutured Ghoul combo works with 'goyf in the yard?

Lol. What's the bit in parentheses at the end of Sutured Ghoul say?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ju/73.jpg
Oh yeah... Lol.

Jaiminho

04-01-2008, 05:51 PM

Old rules... * is evaluated anywhere.

mujadaddy

04-01-2008, 05:53 PM

Old rules... * is evaluated anywhere.
Jeez. That's ghey.

Pinder

04-01-2008, 06:13 PM

Tyrannize*{2/g}{2/g}{2/g}
Sorcery Uncommon
({2/g} may be paid with any combination of two mana or {g}. This card's converted mana cost is 6.)
Until end of turn, target creature you control gains +4/+4, Trample, Wither and "Whenever this creature attacks, target creature must block it if possible." (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters)
Illus. Thomas Denmark

The card sort of sucks, but Wither certainly is interesting. Damage that stays around? And dodges regeneration/indestructibility/damage prevention? Nice.

raharu

04-01-2008, 06:28 PM

Meh. That looks like it's going to screw with standard, at the least. I like the Wither mechanic, and I really hope it gets put on a decent body (withering Tarmogoyf ftl).

SpatulaOfTheAges

04-01-2008, 06:40 PM

Lol. What's the bit in parentheses at the end of Sutured Ghoul say?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ju/73.jpg
Oh yeah... Lol.

I'm 99% sure that anything in parentheses is a clarification of rules, and not a card ability.

Dilettante

04-01-2008, 07:27 PM

So does that mean you can pitch Serra Avatar to Candlefang Incinerator for... a lot?

Nihil Credo

04-01-2008, 07:59 PM

So does that mean you can pitch Serra Avatar to Candlefang Incinerator for... a lot?

If you're lucky and hit the random discard...

Hightower

04-01-2008, 08:25 PM

Unless Serra Avatar is the only card in your hand!

atv

04-01-2008, 08:47 PM

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/SHM_18_6rh7hlo.jpg

Again, pretty nuts, but uber super expensive. Might see play in Ideal over Honden in Extended.

I'm not an Enduring Ideal expert but isn't the point of Honden of Seeing Winds to give you fodder for Solitary Confinement. Confinement makes you skip your draw step, so Thought Reflection wouldn't do any good.

mujadaddy

04-01-2008, 10:10 PM

So does that mean you can pitch Serra Avatar to Candlefang Incinerator for... a lot?

See, it's that kind of BULLshit that the original rule (qv Sutured Ghoul's reminder text) avoided.

Pinder

04-01-2008, 10:12 PM

I'm not an Enduring Ideal expert but isn't the point of Honden of Seeing Winds to give you fodder for Solitary Confinement. Confinement makes you skip your draw step, so Thought Reflection wouldn't do any good.

Ha! You're right. I completely forgot that you have to skip your draw with Confinement out. My bad.

Meekrab

04-01-2008, 10:43 PM

See, it's that kind of awesome combo that the original rule (qv Sutured Ghoul's reminder text) prevented.
FTFY.

This set is awesome.

freakish777

04-01-2008, 11:26 PM

Tyrannize*{2/g}{2/g}{2/g}
Sorcery Uncommon
If you have a creature in play, kill target creature an opponent controls and trample over for A LOT.

The card sort of sucks

This card will be pretty nutty in Limited. Even at 6 mana.

mujadaddy

04-01-2008, 11:47 PM

FTFY.

This set is awesome.

I don't have a problem with the new set -- whither is kinda exciting... it's the "ooh, * is like it's in PLAY, maaaaan" crap that makes me :rolleyes:

Dilettante

04-02-2008, 12:00 AM

I don't have a problem with the new set -- whither is kinda exciting... it's the "ooh, * is like it's in PLAY, maaaaan" crap that makes me :rolleyes:

However, I wouldn't be surprised if a few Timmies tried to run it in a Standard monored deck with Gathan Raiders, Nova Chaser, and a pile of elementals...

vanele

04-02-2008, 12:19 AM

Heres 2 of the cards but i'm sure if your up at this time you've seen it on Mtgsalvation.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68653&d=1207109507
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68655&d=1207109650
Dusk Urchins seems like a legacy playable card to me. 5 damage 3 cards unanswered is more than reasonable.

Pinder

04-02-2008, 12:34 AM

Wilt-Leaf Liege is hot. For serials.

mujadaddy

04-02-2008, 12:41 AM

Dusk Urchins seems like a legacy playable card to me. 5 damage 3 cards unanswered is more than reasonable.Ouphe Sighting!

Pinder-- yeh, that's a pretty good one, too...

vanele

04-02-2008, 12:44 AM

I guess wizards real joke was to preview absolutely terrible cards for 4/1, because we are back to playable cards again.

ssilver

04-02-2008, 03:20 AM

Pinder

04-02-2008, 03:23 AM

Leech Bonder + Paradise Mantle= Fun with opponets 1/1 and -1/1 counters :laugh: Does this work, or is it just because its 12 at night?

No, it works. You tap the Bonder for a blue mana, then use the mana to untap the Bonder and move a counter from something onto something else. I believe someone already mentioned Unstable Mutation as a nifty combo.

Maveric78f

04-02-2008, 05:23 AM

http://medias.jeuxonline.info/www/captures/737/8/10038.jpg
Very good in demon stompy. Probably good also in other decks.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5815/wiltleafliegepj5.jpg
Mmm, Teeg, Doran, Watchwolf, Loxodon Hierarch, itself...

But the best is that it makes you win the tarmogoyf battles.

georgjorge

04-02-2008, 05:26 AM

So does that mean you can pitch Serra Avatar to Candlefang Incinerator for... a lot?

Hey, it's Channel + Fireball except you don't actually LOSE the life !

Or, come to think of it, Sneak Attack with a bit more set-up required (but immune to creature removal...).

xsockmonkeyx

04-02-2008, 05:30 AM

I think the untap machanic is a little of balnced from a normal tap, but I guess we'll see just how much.

Leech Bonder + Paradise Mantle= Fun with opponets 1/1 and -1/1 counters :laugh: Does this work, or is it just because its 12 at night?

An active Leech Bonder + Paradise Mantle + a creature to bounce counters off of (Trinket Mage!)=Infinate mana of any/all colors :smile:

Im predicting a few more creatures with the untap symbol and no mana to activate. Any one of these hypothetical creatures would produce infinite mana with Paradise Mantle (and infinite damage with with stuff like Hermetic Study) as long as you can repeatedly fulfill the untap requirements.

Cabal-kun

04-02-2008, 07:45 AM

Mmm, Teeg, Doran, Watchwolf, Loxodon Hierarch, itself...

Not itself. Note the 'Other creatures you control' text.

Jaiminho

04-02-2008, 08:49 AM

If you have 2 of them in play, then, yeah, they are 6/6.

Barook

04-02-2008, 08:49 AM

Sanguine Voyeur

04-02-2008, 08:55 AM

I don't think the 4/3 for two black is very good. For three mana, you get a 3/2 with no other abilities, then a 2/1 with nothing, then three cards. After three turns you deal five damage and draw three cards, maybe

Dark Confidant, in three turns, swings for six and draws you three cards, doesn't kill itself, and cost one less mana.

Barook

04-02-2008, 09:04 AM

Dark Confidant, in three turns, swings for six and draws you three cards, doesn't kill itself, and cost one less mana.

Bob also dies to basically everything in combat and can cost you a some life points, depending on your draws.

However, Bob is still in another league of card drawing.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-02-2008, 09:10 AM

Bob also dies to basically everything in combat and can cost you a some life points, depending on your draws.But, so do 3/2's, sans Lackey.

The life loss is worth it, but that's known.

technogeek5000

04-02-2008, 09:11 AM

Dusk Urchins is pretty cool, but holy crap at this:

Sygg, River Cutthroat (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68682&d=1207137994) :ub: :ub:
Legendary Creature - Merfolk Rogue
At end of turn, if an opponent has lost 3 or more life this turn, you may draw a card.
1/3

This + burn = fucking awesome
WOWOWOW. Im not sure what kind of shell he would go in, but he looks really good. This would probably be played in the Trident's minion's deck and maybe this could be put into a BR Sui list revamped for the current meta. This backed by dark confidant and burn could give you a great draw engine.

Sek'Kuar

04-02-2008, 09:13 AM

Being the flavor goober that I am...
Has anyone else noticed that the blade Sygg is holding looks a lot like the Shadowmoor expansion symbol?

Maveric78f

04-02-2008, 09:21 AM

Dusk Urchins is pretty cool, but holy crap at this:

Sygg, River Cutthroat (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68682&d=1207137994) :ub: :ub:
Legendary Creature - Merfolk Rogue
At end of turn, if an opponent has lost 3 or more life this turn, you may draw a card.
1/3

This + burn = fucking awesome

What does it mean exactly ? Do I draw if :
My opponent loses 3 life then gains 3 life before the end of turn?
My opponent loses 1 life then gains 3 life then loses 2 life?

I'd say yes to both questions but I'd like to be confirmed.

Barook

04-02-2008, 10:01 AM

I don't think that life gain negates the fact that your opponent lost 3 life during the turn.

Barook

04-02-2008, 10:02 AM

I don't think that life gain negates the fact that your opponent lost 3 life during the turn.

maybe this could be put into a BR Sui list revamped for the current meta. This backed by dark confidant and burn could give you a great draw engine.
Exactly what I was thinking.

TheDrunkDwarf

04-02-2008, 10:48 AM

He also might fit in a doran shell with the BB cost...a 3/3 body for 2 is nice, and if u can get damage through consistently he's a nice engine. Profane also cantrips nicely here.

Dark Urchins + Unstable Mutation anyone?

Arsenal

04-02-2008, 10:59 AM

He's 1/3 actually, not 3/3.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-02-2008, 11:21 AM

He's 1/3 actually, not 3/3.

I suspect he meant once Doran is in play.

Arsenal

04-02-2008, 11:23 AM

^
Completely missed that. He looks interesting.

Shtriga

04-02-2008, 11:53 AM

well, the merfolk plus dark confidant do make a burn deck mildly more interesting

Cire

04-02-2008, 01:43 PM

i just have a question on the scarscale ritual...

Lets say your Dark Confidant blocks some 2/2 can you play it with damage on the stack to still kill that 2/2 and draw 2 cards?

eternaldarkness

04-02-2008, 01:44 PM

If it was an instant.

Cire

04-02-2008, 01:54 PM

shit didn't notice that. Meh then, so far though i like sygg it'll be cool to have a BR burn deck with just him and dark confidant as the black splash... the rest would be burn...lol

Shtriga

04-02-2008, 02:30 PM

on a second though, burn decks have had confidants available to them for a long time (an awesome fit, much better than sygg, and highly splashable), but they never used him. will sygg change that at all?

technogeek5000

04-02-2008, 02:42 PM

I dont think that burn decks would splash sygg, but if they do then it would seem like it would be as effective or even worse then confidant. Sygg requires to black or 2 blue which makes it alot harder to splash for... on the other hand, sygg doesnt die to everything in the format and it doesnt cost you life.

Whats realy cool about sygg is that you can draw at the end of your turn and your opponents. Thats why im excited about it

Also it seems like their redoing all the legendary creatures for each race. We got a new wort, rhys, and now a sygg. I suspect that were also going to get a new ashy (a cinder version of him would be ridiculously cool), brion stoutarm, whatever the kithkin one was called and maybe a new doran.

Sek'Kuar

04-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Being the goober that I am I would like to correct a gender issue...
Ashling is a female.

And not that anyone cares, but the kithkin's name is Brigid Baeli, Hero of Kinsbail. (She is also a female)

Hightower

04-02-2008, 06:34 PM

He's going straight into my monoU Merfolk deck atleast =P

Aggro_zombies

04-03-2008, 01:06 AM

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o226/jbrennan0512/mf192_ldsq07zl1.jpg
Wasteland on legs? Any good?

Apex

04-03-2008, 01:28 AM

Too bad this guy isn't 2{R/B} so I can just stick him in Dragon Stompy and terrorize people left and right.

But otherwise, a playset of this guy is already going up for $12.50 on ebay, and this guy was spoiled today. I think he will be very good. Though you've got to think about what deck will actually play him right now? He has a good ability, but does he have a role that he can fill (like how Countryside Crusher just slid into aggro-loam) immediately?

Aggro_zombies

04-03-2008, 01:41 AM

from Cairo

04-03-2008, 02:45 AM

That guy will likely be a beast in EXT, with fetches sticking around another season, I'd expect manabases to remain as atrocious as they were this past season.

I don't know what kind of impact he will have on Legacy.

In terms of Black, Sinkhole still seems like a better black land destruction complement to Wasteland, I guess you could add these in addition, but when you don't need a 3cc waste effect, he's a mediocre body.

I don't see him as very good in Red land disruption. Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon are just better. The fact that they are both 2R and this guy is 1RR just makes him even less likely to find his way into Red Legacy decks.

Akasha

04-03-2008, 03:24 AM

Well, he could be played in pox maybe. Then Nether Spirit would have to be cut, but Epochrasite could be played instead. For the rest, well for machine head it does seem to be ok.

georgjorge

04-03-2008, 03:59 AM

Woodfall Primus 5GGG
Creature - Treefolk Shaman
Trample
When Woodfall Primus comes into play, destroy target noncreature permanent.
Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control and put a -1/-1 counter on it)
6/6

Probably not worth the effort (has to be cheated into play somehow, and then needs something to sac it to), but Persist + CIP effects can be a deadly combination...

Maybe in the (not played anymore) Husk + Pattern of Rebirth deck, which provides both sac effect and cheating it into play ? Natural Force would also be an option (but then, I'd probably just get Hulk over this).

Maëlig

04-03-2008, 04:50 AM

Possible candidate for a reanimator too, I would guess. He provides both a solution to annoying (non-creature) permanents a bit like angel of despair, can't be chumpblocked and is difficult to get rid of (apart from the all mighty stp).

Maveric78f

04-03-2008, 05:25 AM

Natural Force would also be an option (but then, I'd probably just get Hulk over this).

Natural order you mean ?

Hightower

04-03-2008, 09:44 AM

Damn.. I'm not impressed with Sygg at all =( He shoul've been 2/3..

He doesn't fit in my version of Merfolks as it is now

freakish777

04-03-2008, 09:46 AM

Natural order you mean ?

Yeah, he mixed the card Natural Order with the deck it was in (Secret Force, because you got a Verdant Force).

Dilettante

04-03-2008, 10:00 AM

Sygg 2.0 has his synergies...

He works very well in decks that run The Rack... but not so much a Pox variant since he himself is a creature... A mid-range creature aggro/discard running Negator, Bob, Hyppie, early discard like 4x Thoughtseize and some Duress and 4x Hymm might be the fit... and The Rack puts two-way pressure with Sygg.

He also has synergy... with turning Undermine into a cantrip of sorts.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 10:02 AM

The day I see my favorite counterspell of all time become Legacy playable is the day I run through the halls of my office naked. Bet it.

godryk

04-03-2008, 10:07 AM

Fulminator Mage can be a decent tool to search with Survival, IDK, it may be used to handle things like Academy Ruins, Tabernacle, Mishra's Factory, etc.

Hightower

04-03-2008, 10:30 AM

But Avalance Riders already does that (better) for Survival

Nightmare

04-03-2008, 10:34 AM

Vexing Shusher (may have a spelling mistake in the second word) :rg::rg:

Creature- Goblin Shaman

Vexing Shusher Can't be countered by spells or abilites

:rg:: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities

2/2

A resounding MEH. Vial does it better, usually.

Barook

04-03-2008, 10:49 AM

A resounding MEH. Vial does it better, usually.

:confused:

Vial can't make your non-creature spells uncounterable. This card is damn solid imho.

About Fulminator Mage: In MonoRed, Moon effects are definitely the better solution.

Maybe he'll find a home in some Sui Black build. After all, the sac ability is instant speed which makes him to an ideal chump blocker/suicide attacker/anti-removal magnet.

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 10:59 AM

Red anti-counter? Jeez. And a Goblin, to boot? Golden age of GobBurn?

Peter_Rotten

04-03-2008, 11:05 AM

I haven't been following this thread too carefully, so if anyone has already posted this card, then stfu:

Thought Reflection (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68577&stc=1&d=1207028097)
4:u::u::u:
Enchantment
Whenever you would draw a card, draw two cards instead.

So how do you get it into play? And make it worth while? That effect is so lovely. DO you think Vintage may play it?

Nightmare

04-03-2008, 11:06 AM

:confused:

Vial can't make your non-creature spells uncounterable. This card is damn solid imho.

Good Point. I was thinking about it just from a Vial Joblins POV, not a "hey my deck is red or green" one. It's actually pretty amazing in Survival, now that I think a little harder on it. Also in Burn. It certainly kicks the shit out of Counterbalance, that's for sure.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 11:11 AM

etrigan

04-03-2008, 11:41 AM

Vexing Shusher (may have a spelling mistake in the second word)

Creature- Goblin Shaman

Vexing Shusher Can't be countered by spells or abilites

: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities

2/2

Cast Lightning Bolt. Without passing priority, activate Vexing Shusher, targeting Lightning Bolt. Pass priority, opponent casts Counterspell targeting Lightning Bolt.

Stack looks like this:

Counterspell
Vexing Shusher ability
Lightning Bolt

Counterspell resolves, countering Lightning Bolt. Vexing Shusher fizzles due to lack of target.

As printed, this card doesn't work.

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 11:44 AM

I haven't been following this thread too carefully, so if anyone has already posted this card, then stfu:

Thought Reflection (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68577&stc=1&d=1207028097)
4:u::u::u:
Enchantment
Whenever you would draw a card, draw two cards instead.

So how do you get it into play?Show and Tell? :smile:
And make it worth while?Uh... better minds than mine need to worry about that.

Nightmare

04-03-2008, 11:47 AM

Cast Lightning Bolt. Without passing priority, activate Vexing Shusher, targeting Lightning Bolt. Pass priority, opponent casts Counterspell targeting Lightning Bolt.

Stack looks like this:

Counterspell
Vexing Shusher ability
Lightning Bolt

Counterspell resolves, countering Lightning Bolt. Vexing Shusher fizzles due to lack of target.

As printed, this card doesn't work.

Cast Lightning Bolt. Pass priority, opponent casts Counterspell targeting Lightning Bolt. In response, activate Vexing Shusher targeting Lightning Bolt.

Stack looks like this:

Vexing Shusher ability
Counterspell
Lightning Bolt

Vexing Shusher resolves, countering Lightning Bolt. Counterspell resolves with no effect.

As printed, this card works. There is no accounting for poor play.

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 11:49 AM

Heh, I was editing my post to take out the redundancy. What would have been left was:

You're right that it doesn't "work" for MULTIPLE counters, though. They might want to think about that...

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 11:49 AM

lol, I'd love to play etrigan in tournies...

etrigan

04-03-2008, 12:00 PM

Trust me, you'd win.

Sek'Kuar

04-03-2008, 12:06 PM

Heh, I was editing my post to take out the redundancy. What would have been left was:

You're right that it doesn't "work" for MULTIPLE counters, though. They might want to think about that...
Why couldn't you just use the ability multiple times?

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 12:08 PM

Why couldn't you just use the ability multiple times?

The point is that you'd HAVE to use it multiple times, at instant speed, after each counterspell was announced. This might be what they intended, though.

Barook

04-03-2008, 12:11 PM

Why couldn't you just use the ability multiple times?

Why is there a need to activate it multiple times when one time in response to a counter is enough?

The more I think about it, this card should be a godsend for burn. Not only that it fights Counterbalance, it also helps against Chalice.

Elfrago

04-03-2008, 12:14 PM

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Why is there a need to activate it multiple times when one time in response to a counter is enough?Because in response, they can cast a second counter. Granted, sucking out all your opponent's counters at R/G is sexy...

The more I think about it, this card should be a godsend for burn. Not only that it fights Counterbalance, it also helps against Chalice.Certainly.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Thought Reflection looks like it might have a home somewhere in Vintage, but probably not Legacy. We do not have Lotus/Moxen/Mana Drain to help power out an early Reflection. Rector based decks died in 2003. Meh. It looks nifty though.

freakish777

04-03-2008, 12:36 PM

Vexing Shusher is clearly being printed as a potential answer to Counterbalance, in Extended where Vial isn't legal (also Krosan Grip sees far less play there).

It still dies to Bolt/Plow, but it seems like it should be good in Extended at the very least, and possibly playable here in Legacy also (I'm thinking if you run a BGw deck with Goyf, Bob, Hymn, Vindicate, Sinkhole, Swords, etc, you end up not needing the Krosan Grips in the board for Counterbalance and can run better hate for other decks, or in GoyfSligh, just wait to get to 5 mana, and then resolve this guy, and either PoP or Bolt + Fireblast for the win).

Worst case scenario, you have a bear (hence I'm not convinced it'll be playable in Legacy, you just can't play Meddling Mages, Silver Knights, or Goblin Legionaires anymore).

Peter_Rotten

04-03-2008, 12:39 PM

The more I think about it, this card should be a godsend for burn. Not only that it fights Counterbalance, it also helps against Chalice.

Hmmm... I'm not sold. His critter status makes him relatively easy for decks running CB to remove him. Thresh could bolt or StP him. He is reactive and ties up mana. Plus, he's a piss-poor beater.

I think he'll see play, but I doubt that he'll be a "godsend."

georgjorge

04-03-2008, 01:20 PM

Apex

04-03-2008, 01:31 PM

I can kind of see how you would do that, since people side out spot removal against combo. It's like how Fetchland Tendrils could side in bob 2nd game to get a better advantage. Anything that can fight through Chalice and Counterbalance is pretty damn good, especially if all it costed was just mana, and not extra cards. He even beats for 2, which is like 1 less storm copy for Tendrils every time he connects.

Peter_Rotten

04-03-2008, 01:34 PM

Wallace

04-03-2008, 01:57 PM

I think this guy will have a nice home in type 4!!!! Aside from that he may show up in reanimator...we will see...This also kills this discussion that this was a pic of a twisted /Dark Doran...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/cardsss.jpg

Dilettante

04-03-2008, 02:02 PM

That's an interesting thought - maybe he would be good for Belcher. However, TES would probably rather invest :w: to prevent counters than :1::g/r::g/r:. Also, would Iggy variants be able to support him?

Well, what's been discussed is...
1) It dances around Chalice and Counterbalance... and even Dovescape
2) It protects Pyroblast for knocking out CB
3) It protects Orim's Chant
4) It protects Tutors

You can force a counter-war over Orim's Chant while bluffing your hand and go off the following turn...

Nihil Credo

04-03-2008, 02:10 PM

Can TES/Belcher still go off with a (coloured) Sphere of Resistance in play? Because if they can't, Shusher isn't a real out to Counterbalance/Chalice.

Dilettante

04-03-2008, 02:27 PM

Can TES/Belcher still go off with a (coloured) Sphere of Resistance in play? Because if they can't, Shusher isn't a real out to Counterbalance/Chalice.

*blink* I... don't understand. When's the last time you saw Sphere with CB/Chalice? Two out of three, I've seen yes... but never those in tandem. My train of logic... does not follow...

I'm not as familiar with Belcher...

TES... Burning Wishes for Shattering Spree.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 02:29 PM

Can TES/Belcher still go off with a (coloured) Sphere of Resistance in play? Because if they can't, Shusher isn't a real out to Counterbalance/Chalice.

Well, that comparison really isn't the same because you wouldn't be paying an extra R for every spell that you play, just for the key spells that MUST resolve before you go off (Orim's Chant). Sphere of Resistance makes every spell cost an additional mana, unconditional. Susher may add an extra R here and there, but I'd gladly pay an extra R or RR during the course of my turn if it ensures my combo will go off.

Nihil Credo

04-03-2008, 02:41 PM

The problem is that Counterbalance and Chalice don't care if you resolved Orim's Chant or not. With CounterTop in play, Shusher alone only allows you to go off if you can afford the extra R for nearly every spell you play.

I suppose it does make your Pyroblast work, though. Shusher + Pyroblast or Wish->Silence is still a better anti-Counterbalance plan than the current 'somehow trick your opponent into letting you resolve Pyroblast or Wish->Silence'.

Elfrago

04-03-2008, 02:43 PM

Why is everyone talking about Burn ? This little Goblin might have a nice home in TES and Belcher (sideboards)...Chalice and CBalance are the biggest enemies of those decks as well, and they have game-winning spells to resolve instead of Bolts...this might be better than Swarm in those decks !

Chant can only be countered. This can be killed too. Also it costs :rg: :rg: plus :rg: for each one of your opponent counterspells as opposed to only :w:. Guess we will stick with chant

Dilettante

04-03-2008, 02:46 PM

The problem is that Counterbalance and Chalice don't care if you resolved Orim's Chant or not. With CounterTop in play, Shusher alone only allows you to go off if you can afford the extra R for nearly every spell you play.

I suppose it does make your Pyroblast work, though.

I was not stating it as anti-CB/Chalice... I was stating it as a way to protect your Orim's Chant if they DON'T have one in play so that you can go off relatively protected. Orim's Chant can still be FoW/CS'ed.

Illissius

04-03-2008, 02:51 PM

This is really obvious, but the difference between Shusher and all the previous anti-countermagic measures save Boseiju is that the others can themselves be countered -- Shusher can't. If you have a lot of red and/or green mana, you can basically force whatever spell of your choice to resolve, almost no matter what (exceptions off the top of my head: Misdirection effects, Time Stop, kill you in response, Sudden Shock/Death/Spoiling + Counterspell). I'm not sure where that would be useful yet, but it definitely has its niche.

Apex

04-03-2008, 02:58 PM

4 new cards from Mana Rouge (roughly translated, probably not final wording):

Speared Wasp {u/b}{u/b}{u/b}
Creature - Faerie Soldier
Flying
3/2

Stone Jaws 5r
Sorcery U
~This~deals X damage divided among any number of target creatures or players where X is the number of mountains you controlled when you played ~this~.

Rosheen the Erratic 3{r/g}
Legendary Creature - Giant Shaman
tap: add 4 to your mana pool. Use this mana only to pay for costs containing x.
4/4

Elvish Troops 3g
Creature - Elf
~This~'s power and toughness are each equal to the number of green permanents you control.
~This~ can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponnents control.
*/*

Probably all too weak for legacy.

Shtriga

04-03-2008, 03:25 PM

that elf will definitely have a spot in the few elves decks around

the others are all unimpressive

mujadaddy

04-03-2008, 03:25 PM

4 new cards from Mana Rouge (roughly translated, probably not final wording):

...

Probably all too weak for legacy.
Almost certainly.

Speared Wasp {u/b}{u/b}{u/b}
Creature - Faerie Soldier
Flying
3/2Meh. Doesn't do anything.

Stone Jaws 5r
Sorcery U
~This~deals X damage divided among any number of target creatures or players where X is the number of mountains you controlled when you played ~this~.An almost strictly worse Corrupt, with the Pyrotechnics flavor instead of lifegain.

Rosheen the Erratic 3{r/g}
Legendary Creature - Giant Shaman
tap: add 4 to your mana pool. Use this mana only to pay for costs containing x.
4/4Boy, how many Legends are they going to have in this set?! What the hell is he supposed to fit in?

Elvish Troops 3g
Creature - Elf
~This~'s power and toughness are each equal to the number of green permanents you control.
~This~ can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponnents control.
*/*
Should've been :g::g::g: or champion or something :smile:

Media314r8

04-03-2008, 03:34 PM

Boy, how many Legends are they going to have in this set?! What the hell is he supposed to fit in?

He's probably supposed to be the bizzarro-Brion Stoutarm. Same P/T, cmc.

Nihil Credo

04-03-2008, 03:48 PM

Rosheen's flavour text may as well be "PS: Demonfire you."

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 03:58 PM

Susher + Bound/Determined? I know it's RGU, but in TES, it shouldn't be that hard to get the required mana, and it 99% guarantees your combo will go through any counters.

Sek'Kuar

04-03-2008, 04:02 PM

Rosheen is Brion's sister...
See: Female

Pinder

04-03-2008, 04:20 PM

Bovinious

04-03-2008, 04:23 PM

Stone Jaws 5r
Sorcery U
~This~deals X damage divided among any number of target creatures or players where X is the number of mountains you controlled when you played ~this~.

I guess theyre doing a cycle of sorceries that cost 5 and a colored mana and that care about how many basic lands of that type you have, theyre reprinting Corrupt and Flow of Ideas, and this is the red one. I bet the green and white ones will be fucking awful, as they usually are in cycles.

Alfred

04-03-2008, 04:24 PM

I think that the neatest thing about Shusher is that he's also a green way to fight Counterbalance, of which there is little. I'll pay 1GG for a Goyf if it guarantees him resolving through CB.

Still no idea if this makes him Legacy viable, but I figured I'd point out that he's green, too.

Isn't Krosan Grip green? That is one of the best ways of dealing with Counterbalance.

I'd actually say that he's better as a red solution to Counterbalance, for which there are very few, if any.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-03-2008, 04:29 PM

I'll pay 1GG for a Goyf if it guarantees him resolving through CB.That's very strange considering Tarmogoyf's original cost.

MasterBlaster

04-03-2008, 04:31 PM

I bet the green and white ones will be fucking awful, as they usually are in cycles.

I bet you a Foil Plains one of them will be lifegain.

Pinder

04-03-2008, 04:37 PM

Isn't Krosan Grip green? That is one of the best ways of dealing with Counterbalance.

I thought of that as soon as I posted, but Grip is hardly maindeckable. Not sure if this guy is either, but we'll see.

I suppose it's far more important that it gives green an answer to traditional countermagic, essentially giving it a reusable 'Green Elemental Blast'. And I'm pretty sure there aren't any other ways get around counter spells in green.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 04:42 PM

Isn't Krosan Grip green? That is one of the best ways of dealing with Counterbalance.

I'd actually say that he's better as a red solution to Counterbalance, for which there are very few, if any.

Grip can still be countered by Counterbalance if your opponent knows what he's doing. Using Susher, Counterbalance doesn't do anything to any of your spells.

Alfred

04-03-2008, 04:48 PM

Grip can still be countered by Counterbalance if your opponent knows what he's doing. Using Susher, Counterbalance doesn't do anything to any of your spells.

If you know what you are doing, Krosan Grip is almost always going to hit Counterbalance.

I'd say the downside to Shusher (easily removable) is much worse than your opponent tricking you into wasting a Krosan Grip on his Counterbalance.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 04:53 PM

Alfred

04-03-2008, 05:02 PM

Uh, there isn't too much you can do about your opponent having a 3cc spell on top of their library... or bluffing one that you don't call him on. Again, Grip isn't Counterbalance proof, and most Thresh builds (the deck that uses Counterbalance the most) have become quite adept at fighting off Grip.

Here is what you do: If they are manipulating their deck so that a 3CC spell is always on top of it, you wait until their upkeep, where they will use Top switch it to the second card down, then Grip the Counterbalance.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 05:12 PM

Here is what you do: If they are manipulating their deck so that a 3CC spell is always on top of it, you wait until their upkeep, where they will use Top switch it to the second card down, then Grip the Counterbalance.

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.

EDIT: Im' a tool

Nihil Credo

04-03-2008, 05:33 PM

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.
You're kidding, right?

First of all, of course Top is involved. If there is no Top, you can just test it with a spell and you are then 100% guaranteed of getting rid of the Counterbalance. Or just play the odds, which are pretty good since I can't think of a Counterbalance deck running over ten 3cc spells.

This ties into my second point, i.e. there is no known universe where Thresh players run enough 3cc spells - even postboard - to consistently guarantee two out of their three top cards to cost 3. And even if they did, unless they want to draw only their 3cc spells, they're going to have to put something else on top during their upkeep. Yeah, they may 'bluff', so here's a handy guide to minimize the effectiveness of their bluffing:
If they have had Balance in play for a while and you topdeck Grip, use it straight the fuck away.
If you have had the Grip in hand for a while and then they drop Balance, use it straight the fuck away unless they Topped this turn before playing Counterbalance.
If they Topped before dropping Counterbalance, slump down when they drop it, untap, play a test spell without laughing maniacally if possible, let them rearrange with Top, then Grip the Counterbalance. Or alternatively, play the odds during the upkeep step right before they draw, which is often a good idea since they are even better than those in the 'Counterbalance sans Top' scenario above.EDIT: Now that I realise this, what the fuck is this discussion doing in the Shadowmoor spoiler thread?

Alfred

04-03-2008, 05:33 PM

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.

EDIT: Also, Top isn't the only tool Thresh uses to manipulate the library. Brainstorm and Ponder both manipulate the library and gets around your Grip (although admittedly, if you respond to my Brainstorm/Ponder, when I have Counterbalance out, with your Grip, then you should stop playing Magic.)

Threshold runs few 3CC spells, few enough that your 2CC, 3CC, 3CC spells example is quite uncommon. Besides, this argument is Krosan Grip versus Shusher.

Krosan Grip is more difficult to stop than Shusher, because it's an instant, doesn't need to stay in play for a turn before using it and permanently deals with the Counterbalance, rather than trying to force things through it.

If you're trying to deal with a Counterbalance, Grip is possibly the best solution in all of magic, because it's CC is > than almost every spell in Thresh, it can't be countered with backup countermagic and deals with it permanently. If you're in green, and trying to deal with CB, I don't see why you would choose Shusher over it.

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 05:37 PM

Threshold runs few 3CC spells, few enough that your 2CC, 3CC, 3CC spells example is quite uncommon. Besides, this argument is Krosan Grip versus Shusher.

Krosan Grip is more difficult to stop than Shusher, because it's an instant, doesn't need to stay in play for a turn before using it and permanently deals with the Counterbalance, rather than trying to force things through it.

If you're trying to deal with a Counterbalance, Grip is possibly the best solution in all of magic, because it's CC is > than almost every spell in Thresh, it can't be countered with backup countermagic and deals with it permanently. If you're in green, and trying to deal with CB, I don't see why you would choose Shusher over it.

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

I was thinking of Susher in a combo deck, where forcing things through might as well be permanently getting rid of Counterbalance; they won't see a next turn anyway because you've won. And in particular, TES, where green was basically cut.

Hightower

04-03-2008, 05:42 PM

Just a little "flash note" here..

Vexing Shushers are already going for 40$+ a playset on eBay... But on the Shadowmoor spolier [from MTGsalvation] it says Shusher is a Release Promo - which if true, would inflate the price when Shadowmoor hits right? (sorry if I'm too off-topic here)

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 05:44 PM

Eek. I guess $.99 Grip it is...

RE: Shadowmoor overall, does anyone else see that WotC is releasing more and more creatures with nifty tricks/abililties to them, and less non-creature spells with nifty effects?

Sanguine Voyeur

04-03-2008, 05:46 PM

But on the Shadowmoor spolier [from MTGsalvation] it says Shusher is a Release Promo - which if true, would inflate the price when Shadowmoor hits right?Wouldn't that reduce the price? It forced more into circulation at a fixed rate, even if for a limited time.
(sorry if I'm too off-topic here)I can't see it being too off topic, it discusses cards from the new set. However, it's not my discretion.

Hightower

04-03-2008, 05:52 PM

Hmm sorry for bad wording. What I meant to say was that it would inflate the "market", hence the price would drop if it was a Release Promo..

Arsenal

04-03-2008, 05:54 PM

I like Susher, he's the most interesting/potentially playable creature spolied so far (Sygg taking 2nd place). Shadowmoor seems really interesting, but sorta creature heavy right now.

xsockmonkeyx

04-03-2008, 09:09 PM

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

REB or Pyroblast with CB on the stack or in response to the top replacement activation.

Wallace

04-03-2008, 10:52 PM

The tokens for this set look sick!!!

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken4.jpg http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken5.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken6.jpg http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken1.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken2.jpg http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1561_SHMToken3.jpg

These are oly the first 6, there will be more later.

Pinder

04-03-2008, 11:25 PM

The Elf, the Goblin, and the Elemental look pretty sweet, but the other 3 are sort of 'meh'.

Apex

04-04-2008, 12:19 AM

2 new cards for Friday:

Beseech the Queen
2/b 2/b 2/b
(cmc is 6)
Sorcery
Uncommon
Search your library for a card with cmc less than or equal to the number of lands you control, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Knollspine Invocation
1rr
Enchantment
Rare
X, Discard a card with cmc X: Knollspine Invocation deals X damage to target creature or player.

Yay for Beseech the Queen. For scrubs like myself that can't afford Grim Tutors, this is probably as close as I can get to it without shelling out $100. BBB isn't incredibly hard to generate with Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual, and all I need it for is to tutor for an Infernal Tutor anyway.

from Cairo

04-04-2008, 12:46 AM

Beseech is pretty solid, obv the real downside being that you probably want to wait til you have 2 land in play to make use of its potential in this format, so even with a ritual turn 1 it's probably not the right play. Grim Tutor is definitely still better, but this is pretty good none the less.

Dilettante

04-04-2008, 12:54 AM

Beseech is still nice... because it tutors for, fairly easily... Burning Wish, LED, Rite of Flame, Tormod's Crypt, Engineered Explosives, Blood Moon...

As for those Tokens... all the art in this set is starting to look like WotC kidnapped American McGee.

PhanTom_lt

04-04-2008, 03:08 AM

A perfect fit for Fecthland Tendrils? Or maybe some slower combo decks, should one exist.. Oh, I know, Nefariuos Lich!!!

Sek'Kuar

04-04-2008, 08:14 AM

As for those Tokens... all the art in this set is starting to look like WotC kidnapped American McGee.

On a completely random side note, are they still coming out with the American McGee's "Alice" movie this summer?

Arsenal

04-04-2008, 09:02 AM

I definitely like the tone and darker shades to this set compared to happy-go-lucky Lorwyn, Morningtide.

freakish777

04-04-2008, 10:00 AM

Wtf? You guys actually think Beseech is playable in combo decks??

It basically can't grab Tendrils. If you're waiting until turn 4 (and hoping to drop a land each turn as well) to pull the trigger in this format, you've lost.

Arsenal

04-04-2008, 10:16 AM

^
I wholly disagree with this statement. Combo decks, while having the ability to combo out turn 1-3, do not always do so. Also, comboing out turn 4-5 is still within the acceptable time frame for most competitive combo decks.

Also, Beseech would be used as a pseudo-Grim Tutor (and cheaper too). Grim Tutors, from what I've read/seen, are used to tutor up answers (Rebuild, Wipe Away, etc) for resolved combo-stoppers (CotV, Trinisphere, Meddling Mage, etc), not necessarily used to tutor up the win condition.

Beseech shouldn't be dismissed so easily, especially for people who do not own Grim Tutors.

Peter_Rotten

04-04-2008, 10:22 AM

mujadaddy

04-04-2008, 10:43 AM

BtQ: I like it. Good for suicidy-type builds when you don't want to spare 3 life :wink:

Also, it's splashable.

On a completely random side note, are they still coming out with the American McGee's "Alice" movie this summer?
Imdb still says July 2008. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0466663/)

Arsenal

04-04-2008, 10:44 AM

BtQ will only be run in non-Confidant Sui builds. CMC6 is too much for Confidant to handle.

BreathWeapon

04-04-2008, 11:43 AM

Grim Tutor is a sub-par card in storm combo, so I have a difficult time seeing BTQ in storm combo as well. It's too conditional/slow compared to a Draw 4 to merit consideration.

Arsenal

04-04-2008, 11:50 AM

Grim Tutor vs. Draw4 is entirely meta dependant, though. And if your meta supports Grim Tutor, but you don't have $400 for the playset, BtQ would do just fine.

mujadaddy

04-04-2008, 12:05 PM

the ElementalOn that note, has there been a card spoiled that actually makes 5/5 elemental tokens?

And yeh, that looks cool :)

Pinder

04-04-2008, 12:41 PM

Why won't BtQ be a reasonable tutor for Rock, Trainwreck, or Helldozer type decks? Couldn't it be used in those types of decks that delay and control and then tutor up a win-con or silver bullet?

Maybe something like.... BURNING TOG - ROAR!

I completely agree. I think BtQ will see plenty of play in Rock-ish black control builds that can just control the game until they need to tutor up a wincon or an answer or something. I mean, I doubt BtQ will see much combo play, and it certainly isn't getting Ritual'd out on the first turn anytime soon, but I'm pretty sure that 90% of the time in control it's a Grim that doesn't cost you life (or $150).

Burning Tog, though? That's just crazy.

edit - Also, it's a spell you can play for 3 mana that has a CMC of 6, so it basically says 'Fuck you, Counterbalance'. I like that.

freakish777

04-04-2008, 01:43 PM

Also, comboing out turn 4-5 is still within the acceptable time frame for most competitive combo decks.

Also, Beseech would be used as a pseudo-Grim Tutor. Grim Tutors, from what I've read/seen, are used to tutor up answers for resolved combo-stoppers, not necessarily used to tutor up the win condition.

In a combo deck, Grim Tutor is at least twice as powerful as BtQ due to the flexibility of being able to tutor Tendrils, Ill Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens or any of your other legitimate win conditions without restriction early. I would wager that having Grim Tutor in your deck would win you 5% (or more) more games than BtQ would due to being able to "pull the trigger" when you have to.

Further, we already have a huge array of suitable tutors in Legacy for combo , even if you can't afford Grims, I think there's better options for combo decks (Burning Wish Wish immediately springs to mind). Aside from that, the most recent list of Fetchland Tendrils didn't run Grim Tutors, and even if it had wanted to, I'd run Burning Wish or Intuition long before I ran BtQ in Fetchland Tendrils.

Again, being restricted by your lands hurts even more than you seem to think since it's not, "Search for a card with CMC X where X is the turn number you're on." Manascrew happens (and sometimes your opponents force it). I mean are you really going to want to play Brainstorm and "be forced" to keep a land you'd otherwise put back just so you can "power up" BtQ??

@PR, I think Trainwreck could make use of this card quite effectively. Tutoring up a Deed/Hymn/Coffers/Skeletal Scrying/Krosan Grip/etc seems worthwhile, the only thing I don't like about it is that you can't go:

Turn 1: Innocent Blood/Duress/Thoughtseize
Turn 2: Hymn/Edict
Turn 3: BtQ -> Damnation/Haunting Echoes

Essentially, you really want to be tapping out turn 3 for Deed, and if you're tutoring on turn 3 and need to clear the board, it'll take you 2 more turns (play Deed, then activate Deed OR wait a turn to play BtQ and then grab Damnation) instead of 1 more. Basically it introduces some subtle curving issues, because you have to hold it longer to set up a Bomb like Echoes/Helldozer instead of just tapping out each turn. That said, BtQ for Deed/Skeletal Scrying in Trainwreck seems like it could be stronger than other current options (Tainted Pact, Grim Tutor, Diabolic Tutor).

CynicalSquirrel

04-04-2008, 02:19 PM

This is going back a few pages, but I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned Fulminator Mage possibly being in Deadguy Ale. It might make the 3cc slot a bit cluttered, but getting additional LD potential on a 2/2 guy seems really strong for the deck, and it's another devastating turn one play off a Ritual.

Arsenal

04-04-2008, 03:59 PM

Wasp Lancer looks nice. 3/2 Flyer for 3; might find a home in Sui decks. Not bad. Not great. But it seems commons/uncommons of today are beginning to get pretty decent when it comes to creatures.

Bovinious

04-04-2008, 04:32 PM

Wasp Lancer looks nice. 3/2 Flyer for 3; might find a home in Sui decks. Not bad. Not great. But it seems commons/uncommons of today are beginning to get pretty decent when it comes to creatures.

Its called power creep, WOTC is making creatures better, ala Goyf, but spells weaker, such as Cancel. Weaker spells is fucking up if you ask me, but some people like theyre beats...

mujadaddy

04-04-2008, 04:34 PM

CynicalSquirrel

04-04-2008, 06:59 PM

BreathWeapon

04-04-2008, 07:50 PM

The reason for common creatures being more powerful is for limited more than anything else. Limited environments now have so much depth in creatures compared to like Masques block or Urza block. It's just a way to make it more interesting, I don't think it's really power creep at all.

It's more of a marketing issue than a design issue, most CCGs revolve around creatures/character, while MTG is the least creature/character centric CCG on the market. MTG has to make creatures more powerful in order to retain the combat phase as the critical phase of the game, otherwise it risks losing Timmy to other CCGs.

Wallace

04-04-2008, 09:49 PM

Creatures SHOULD be more powerful, on balance, than spells. Spells in the general sense are more flexible. Creatures only, in the general sense, beat on you.

A 3/2 flyer for 3 isn't power creep, really; qv Skittering Skirge & Hypnotic Specter.

Very true..not only is a 3/2 Flyer for 3 ok, it's 3 colored mana (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaub.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaub.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaub.gif)...

Oh yeah and it took Bovi 475 posts to bring up Goyf, he's getting better...

raharu

04-04-2008, 11:46 PM

It's more of a marketing issue than a design issue, most CCGs revolve around creatures/character, while MTG is the least creature/character centric CCG on the market. MTG has to make creatures more powerful in order to retain the combat phase as the critical phase of the game, otherwise it risks losing Timmy to other CCGs.
The combat phase is always going to be critical. Control players have strived for win-conditions that evade it for as long as control has existed, and still fail.

You can't win without the combat phase unless you play combo (which everyone aparently hates playing against/ with, but my opinion is a different story altogether).

xsockmonkeyx

04-05-2008, 02:21 AM

edit - Also, it's a spell you can play for 3 mana that has a CMC of 6, so it basically says 'Fuck you, Counterbalance'. I like that.

Bah, they can still Counterbalance the card you tutor up. Better get something big.

raharu

04-05-2008, 02:29 AM

Is Vexing Slusher going to be a good wishboard target? I'm thinking about it because, considering that Living Wish is the same cost as Burning and Burning doesn't have anything anolouglous to Slusher to grab, perhap some more researce need to be done with Slusher + LWish... Some of the wishboards I've seen for LWish aren't all that bad, and with some work, they could be better.

Mr.C

04-05-2008, 03:01 AM

And the Interesting thing about BtQ is that it can be a tutor for {6}. Could that be useful in something that would normally ramp up mana and need tutors? Some Wake deck, maybe? :p

raharu

04-05-2008, 03:07 AM

The Rock, more likely than not, is going to be the deck to use/ abuse it. Combo can't, stack control would rather draw cards, and agro generally doesn't like tutors, much like Agro-control. That leaves The Rock and possibly deadguy, but given Deadguy's structure, I think it's going to be a no go. So The Rock fetches a Gigapeede or a Scarab and wins.

BreathWeapon

04-05-2008, 11:29 AM

The combat phase is always going to be critical. Control players have strived for win-conditions that evade it for as long as control has existed, and still fail.

You can't win without the combat phase unless you play combo (which everyone aparently hates playing against/ with, but my opinion is a different story altogether).

Control's win conditions are irrelevant, once the game is under control it can end it via Morphling or Rod of Ruin. What most games are designed around is the combat phase from start to finish, with small to large scale interactions between creatures/characters as the game progresses. Since Magic uses an arbitrary resource system via life, and it has permanents that can't be destroyed via the combat phase, the dominant strategy is usually to avoid the combat phase in favor of non-interaction.

That's why you see a disproportionate power creep between Creatures and other spells in Magic, the designers have to come up with a "bait" policy for Creatures in order to get them to be the most important feature of the game for both players.

TheCramp

04-05-2008, 01:07 PM

Safewright Quest {wg}
Sorcery (Common)
Search your library for a Forest or Plains card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

I think this card is interesting. Not sure what in, but perhaps something that otherwise does not use green. As a white card it is pretty interesting.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68903&d=1207365035

Pinder

04-05-2008, 01:20 PM

As a white card it is pretty interesting.

More interesting than, say, Eternal Dragon? For mono-white at least, I can't see a reason to run this over Dragon. In GW, though, it's ability to fetch whatever color you don't have using whatever color you do have is pretty interesting. Then again, we have Fetchlands in this format. Why pay mana for a Windswept Heath?

edgewalker

04-05-2008, 01:39 PM

Tithe?

freakish777

04-05-2008, 03:40 PM

I think this card is interesting. Not sure what in, but perhaps something that otherwise does not use green. As a white card it is pretty interesting.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68903&d=1207365035

This card is terrible, even for a Standard card. Rampant Growth is better, putting the land into play tapped as opposed to your hand outweighs the fact that you can't grab a Dryad Arbor, a Dual/Shockland, or Murmering Bosk with it. Seriously.

Nihil Credo

04-05-2008, 04:52 PM

Among a bunch of Block-level stuff, two cheap spells that have good chances of seeing play:

Guttural Response http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif
Instant
Counter target blue instant spell

Green Pyroblast - it can't destroy Counterbalance, but then, Pyroblast usually can't either. Though with Grip and Shusher already in Green, I wonder if there is a situation that will let this one make the cut.

Manamorphose http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif
Instant
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

This is an automatic four-of in Belcher, no questions asked, and possibly in other Storm decks as well. Veeery good.

from Cairo

04-05-2008, 04:54 PM

Tithe?

and Land Grant...

Yea I think there are better options in both cases. I would rather pay 0 mana for a single Forest, and I would rather pay 1 mana for 2 Plains. Safewright Quest seems just worse than both. May find use in other formats though.

BreathWeapon

04-05-2008, 05:52 PM

Guttural Response could be used over the Blasts in Belcher since it can use both R/G mana to cast it, it mana fixes with Chrome Mox and it goes off before Counterbalance is relevant.

Edit: Goblin Shusher is also conveniently terrible in Belcher for that matter.

Manamorphisis is interesting, being able to generate UU with out LED seriously impacts the viability of Diminishing Returns, and it supports Draw 4s.

This is going to be an important set for combo.

vanele

04-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Yay 44 card burn with Manamorphisis.
8 baubles 4 wraths 4 Manamorphisis, and like 26 other burnspells.

etrigan

04-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Guttural Response http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif
Instant
Counter target blue instant spell

Green Pyroblast - it can't destroy Counterbalance, but then, Pyroblast usually can't either.

Fuck destroy Counterbalance. It cant COUNTER Counterbalance. Other cards it doesn't stop: Arcane Laboratory, Meddling Mage, Propaganda.

Red decks wont play it. REB is better. Green decks might, but I honestly doubt it. Any green deck is not going to want to keep the mana open.

Peter_Rotten

04-05-2008, 07:43 PM

Manamorphose http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif
Instant
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

This is an automatic four-of in Belcher, no questions asked, and possibly in other Storm decks as well. Veeery good.

Hmmm... Interesting indeed. Would it replace Street Wraith? If you're running a list with Wild Cantor, this should replace it, no? Will this card go so far as to revitalize the Black splash? Casting a threshed Cabal Ritual off of this seems sorta sexy.

Nihil Credo

04-05-2008, 07:55 PM

Will this card go so far as to revitalize the Black splash?
Did the black splash ever go away? (http://www.deckcheck.net/dvb.php?ids=10098_10230_10506_10642_10697_10722_10821_10897_10933_10963_12149_12155_12201_12208_12313_12314_12322_12439_12533_12596_13081_13249_13648_14086_14445_14509_14685_14914_14923_14966)

Zilla

04-05-2008, 08:08 PM

Hmmm... Interesting indeed. Would it replace Street Wraith? If you're running a list with Wild Cantor, this should replace it, no? Will this card go so far as to revitalize the Black splash? Casting a threshed Cabal Ritual off of this seems sorta sexy.
Cabal Ritual is worse than Dark Ritual and the deck only really has room to play Dark Ritual in the Cantor slot. Manamorphose seems better than both, so why splash black?

BreathWeapon

04-05-2008, 09:13 PM

Cabal Ritual is worse than Dark Ritual and the deck only really has room to play Dark Ritual in the Cantor slot. Manamorphose seems better than both, so why splash black?

What about Manamorphose and Wild Cantor in the 8 open slots and then replacing Seething Song? With 8 filters, the deck can get rid of its worst accelerant for something more useful, like Dark Ritual or Slithermuse.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-05-2008, 10:10 PM

What about Manamorphose and Wild Cantor in the 8 open slots and then replacing Seething Song? With 8 filters, the deck can get rid of its worst accelerant for something more useful, like Dark Ritual or Slithermuse.Isn't Seething Song one of the most important mana rituals in the deck? Isn't Slithermuse not run at all? Aren't the black splashed versions generally weaker? I'm not a Belcher person, but I thought the answer to all of those was yes.

BreathWeapon

04-05-2008, 10:50 PM

Isn't Seething Song one of the most important mana rituals in the deck? Isn't Slithermuse not run at all? Aren't the black splashed versions generally weaker? I'm not a Belcher person, but I thought the answer to all of those was yes.

Seething Song is the worst ritual, it's 3cc puts it at the "choking point" where control is going to Force of Will the mana in order to keep you off of Empty the Warrens, after which Seething Song is worthless until the deck manages to hit the 3cc again.

R/g/b Belcher was dismissed because Dark Ritual was inconsistent and Bayou caused Belcher to misfire, with another mana fixer the option to cut Seething Song, that may not be the case any more.

No one uses Slither Muse at the moment, but it's right at the 4cc mark, which means Belcher could use it as an unrestricted Windfall that doesn't draw the opponent into disruption if it wanted to. I'm a fan of Living Wish -> Slither Muse as it stands, so additional U sources just makes the card even more potentially viable.

Manamorphose has a lot of potential applications in Storm combo, the card requires a great deal of testing.