Shadowmoor Info [Archive] - Page 4

umbowta

04-14-2008, 08:13 AM

While the whole cleansing meditation thing is cool and all, is it that much better than just playing Primeval Light? since it'll be easier to cast since its 3G instead of 1WW and besides i doubt any potential deck would be acceling into Eve --> Meditation/ Light? Instead it'll probably be a deck full of control cards, plays down some threats, then Eve passes the turn, hopefully counters and CB keep it in play and then you play meditation... even cooler would be if you play Sterling Grove, and that new sterling grove type enchantment to give all your permanents shroud. I see a deck coming, Eve/ Enchantment destruction/ shroud enchantments/ some draw search/ and counters.....mmmm fun
Yes, Cire, the U/G approach would probably be better for casual dueling as Primeval Light would most likely seal the game win. However, in multiplayer, Cleansing Meditation is waaaaay cooler. There is alot more time to set up in multiplayer and as Aggro Zombies put it, "Meditation puts the cards back into play (if I remember correctly). That allows you to trigger a whole raft of CiP abilities - I think someone mentioned Eternal Witness - as well as getting you back everything untapped." Meditation, when you have threshold, actually puts all of your cards destroyed by it back into play, while everyone else would be left permanentless. Thus Primeval Light, which says, "Destroy all enchantments target player controls" would be a nice one shot effect in a duel, Meditation is clearly the better of the two for making a table full of grown men concede at the realization of its recurring effect.

tivadar

04-14-2008, 09:22 AM

+Energy Field=no damage. Is that any good?

I actually came on here to see if anyone had posted this yet. But yes, this should work rather well. As someone mentioned before, this will most likely be a replacement effect.

Interesting that they gave W/G the graveyard hate where black had it in the past... This card is a nice replacement for leyline for decks that can't support it. Also far more castable when drawn...

Mr.C

04-14-2008, 12:51 PM

I'm not sure if anyone posted this yet:

Advanced Auramancy 1W
Enchantment
Other enchantments you control have shroud.
Enchanted creatures you control have shroud.

It's not as good as Sterling Grove in Enchantress, but it could fit into a deck that needs to protect an important enchantment.

Like this one?

http://www.puremtgo.com/userfiles/Image/prismatic_omen.jpg

I wonder if this is like Goyf's ability, that affects them when they're not in play too... hm...

Zach Tartell

04-14-2008, 01:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that they'd be Land Cards, not Lands.

Something about cintinuous effects, rule number something something something point something.

C.P.

04-14-2008, 01:08 PM

Like this one?

I wonder if this is like Goyf's ability, that affects them when they're not in play too... hm...

It says 'you control', not 'you own'. It only effects the ones in the play.

Nightmare

04-14-2008, 01:12 PM

Prismatic OmenFuck off, Blood Moon. (Note - Timestamps apply.)

TeenieBopper

04-14-2008, 01:14 PM

Aw man, if only Domain spells weren't absurdly expensive. And shitty.

Nihil Credo

04-14-2008, 01:24 PM

Fuck off, Blood Moon. (Note - Timestamps apply.)
If timestamps apply, then how is this any better than a standard Naturalize effect?

Nightmare

04-14-2008, 01:24 PM

If timestamps apply, then how is this any better than a standard Naturalize effect?Shut up.

Versus

04-14-2008, 01:43 PM

C.P.

04-14-2008, 01:51 PM

So with Prismatic Omen and Blood Moon in play an Urborg would be a Legendary basic Pains-Forest-Mountain-Swamp-Island that counts as a Swamp (again) a Mountain (again) and taps for red mana?

DCI better supply their judges with Advil.

I don't really understand timestamps. So would Price of Progress deal NO damage and would B2B allow all lands to untap with Prismatic Omen in play or no?

I believe it still is non-basic lands. Thus B2B and the Price will do its thing, regardless of timestamp.

If a non-basic land is in play with the enchantment, I believe it is Nonbasic Land - Plains Forest Mountain Swamp Island.

Oriflamme

04-14-2008, 02:46 PM

If timestamps apply, then how is this any better than a standard Naturalize effect?

Because you can't Naturalize a Magus of the Moon. I'm sure (hoping) that WOTC addresses these issues in the Shadowmoor FAQ, including timestamps etc etc...

Jak

04-14-2008, 02:51 PM

Because you can't Naturalize a Magus of the Moon. I'm sure (hoping) that WOTC addresses these issues in the Shadowmoor FAQ, including timestamps etc etc...

They were talking about Blood Moon.

AngryTroll

04-14-2008, 03:03 PM

Right, but decks that play one often play the other (See: Dragon Stompy); for every deck that plays one (Thrash or whatever it is called) there is a deck that plays the other (RGb/GBrw Survival).

It's neat, but how often is it better than Sakura Tribe Elder for the basic you need, Krosan Grip for Blood Moon, etc?

Or we could stop building decks with terrible mana bases.

Pinder

04-14-2008, 03:32 PM

You guys are all missing the point. Obviously the best use of this enchantment is Sliver Queen, followed shortly thereafter by Coalition Victory.

n00bs.

insertnamehere

04-14-2008, 03:39 PM

Prismatic Omen? Hmmm, 5c Green?

vanele

04-14-2008, 04:38 PM

You guys are all missing the point. Obviously the best use of this enchantment is Sliver Queen, followed shortly thereafter by Coalition Victory.

n00bs.

Lol Try Transguild Courier instead of sliver queen and you have yourself a deck.

8GGURBW Ftw

Aggro_zombies

04-14-2008, 06:26 PM

Lol Try Transguild Courier instead of sliver queen and you have yourself a deck.

8GGURBW Ftw
You can't Grip Queen in response to Coalition Victory. Also, Queen is a 7/7 for five in one of the best tribes in the game.

mujadaddy

04-14-2008, 07:08 PM

Or we could stop building decks with terrible mana bases.
This :laugh:

Pinder

04-14-2008, 07:37 PM

This :laugh:

But why fix your manabases (manabasi?) when you can just run shitty cards to fix your shitty manabasi?

Sanguine Voyeur

04-14-2008, 07:47 PM

You can't Grip Queen in response to Coalition Victory. Also, Queen is a 7/7 for five in one of the best tribes in the game.If you use The Reaper King, you can make it standard legal, however.
But why fix your manabases (manabasi?) when you can just run shitty cards to fix your shitty manabasi?I believe it would be mana bases, as in all of your mana bases.

On a relevant point, when does Shadowmoor become legal?

Jaynel

04-14-2008, 07:55 PM

The day that it's released, I think, under the new DCI Floor Rules or something.

Humphrey

04-14-2008, 08:25 PM

Oona + Ashnods Altar ?!

Kadaj

04-14-2008, 10:03 PM

Oona + Ashnods Altar ?!

Bad + Worse?!

Illissius

04-15-2008, 02:49 AM

Prismatic Omen

So, how about that Last Stand?

rufus

04-15-2008, 09:30 AM

Paradise Mantle + Puresight Merrow looks like something that could be pretty potent, especially combined with Shelldock Isle.

georgjorge

04-15-2008, 09:58 AM

You're right ! That combo sounds decent for three mana and no useless cards...

I think the untap ability has really broken potential...for example, consider Magus of the Coffers + Umbral Mantle...infinte P/T if you have more than two Swamps in play.

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 11:01 AM

I'm dumber for having read this page of the thread.

I hope you're all happy.

ssilver

04-15-2008, 11:37 AM

I am stuck behind a school firewall, but want to get the new shadowmoor info. MTGsalvation is blocked.... is there somewhere else that posts updates of the new cards?

Drathro

04-15-2008, 12:14 PM

This card invoked a little dialog on my head::

Who rule Barter-town?

http://mtgcast.hodgestorage.com/pictures/MTGCast_Shadowmoor_Preview_Cards__images/ddnx5ct_19qxwwkxcr_b.jpg

Master-Blaster! Master-Blaster rule Barter-Town!

Ok, so the card isn't that great, but I'll try to contribute.... how about:

Tattermunge Duo + Djinn Illuminatus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Djinn_Illuminatus) + Pact of the Titan (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pact_of_the_Titan)? Aw, heck, add Fling (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fling) for good measure.

I admit it, I posted entirely for the movie quote, but you knew that already.

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 12:24 PM

This card invoked a little dialog on my head::

Who rule Barter-town?

Master-Blaster! Master-Blaster rule Barter-Town!

Ok, so the card isn't that great, but I'll try to contribute.... how about:

Tattermunge Duo + Djinn Illuminatus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Djinn_Illuminatus) + Pact of the Titan (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pact_of_the_Titan)? Aw, heck, add Fling (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fling) for good measure.

I admit it, I posted entirely for the movie quote, but you knew that already.
Replicate doesn't trigger this guy.

Cire

04-15-2008, 12:31 PM

Here was a new Card

Fossil Find R/G
Sorcery Uncommon
Return a card at random from your graveyard to your hand, then reorder your graveyard as you choose.

It looks like it has potential, i mean it's like gamble, but it can potentially loop, since it effects the grave...

maybe it can go in some combo, get back a random ritual?

Lego

04-15-2008, 12:56 PM

Fossil Find R/G
Sorcery Uncommon
Return a card at random from your graveyard to your hand, then reorder your graveyard as you choose.

Are they bringing back graveyard order matters? Then at least we can explain to people why they have to keep their graveyard in order, instead of, "It's the rules."

LGD

04-15-2008, 01:27 PM

Are they bringing back graveyard order matters? Then at least we can explain to people why they have to keep their graveyard in order, instead of, "It's the rules."

I'm pretty sure it's just incidental to the way most people would choose to determine which card they randomly retrieved from the graveyard- means nobody gets a judge called on them for violating game rules if they use this thing in standard, etc. Graveyard orders is annoying and they've said in the past that they want to steer clear of it if at all possible. The fact that this card potentially has use in older formats that contain such cards is just a nice bonus.

quicksilver

04-15-2008, 01:43 PM

Are they bringing back graveyard order matters? Then at least we can explain to people why they have to keep their graveyard in order, instead of, "It's the rules."

No they specifically said you may rearrange the order because they don't want graveyard order to matter. They want people to be able to shuffle their gy, pick a random card, and then put the cards back without having to worry about violating graveyard order for interactions with older cards such as phyrexian furnace.

Oh and the card is terrbile. It's like gamble if gamble got you a random card from your deck. You can't play this in the same deck with fetch lands, and unlike gamble where you have a large chance of getting the card you want, with this you have a small chance of getting the card you want.

Cire

04-15-2008, 01:48 PM

what about it being a singleton in some combo decks..unless the deck runs fetches or land grant then the Fossil find will always grab you a relevant card (Disruption, Ritual, Tutor)

Nihil Credo

04-15-2008, 01:59 PM

Everlasting Torment http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manabr.gif
Enchantmenthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-rare.gif
Players can't gain life.
Damage can't be prevented.
All damage is dealt as if its source had wither. (Damage is dealt in the form of -1/-1 counters)

Coolest card I've seen in a long while. There's a Johnnygasm hidden somewhere, too.

Also:

Elsewhere Flask http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gif
Artifacthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif
When Elsewhere Flask comes into play, draw a card.
Sacrifice Elsewhere Flask: Lands you control become the basic land type of your choice in addition to their other types until end of turn.

Now this is a decent Blood Moon answer for decks with horrible manabases. It can be cast with a Moon in play, you aren't wasting a card on it, then you pop it when you draw the appropriate removal spell.

freakish777

04-15-2008, 02:04 PM

Oh and the card is terrbile. It's like gamble if gamble got you a random card from your deck. You can't play this in the same deck with fetch lands, and unlike gamble where you have a large chance of getting the card you want, with this you have a small chance of getting the card you want.

You're totally missing the fact that its an uber tutor in Burning Tog with a Tog out! Or something...

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 02:11 PM

Elsewhere Flask http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gif
Artifacthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif
When Elsewhere Flask comes into play, draw a card.
Sacrifice Elsewhere Flask: Lands you control become the basic land type of your choice in addition to their other types until end of turn.

Is anyone else reminded a little too much of Tsabo's Web? Like, this is pretty much a dedicated answer to Blood Moon effects. Not that I'm complaining, but it's pretty friggin narrow.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 02:40 PM

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 02:59 PM

Daze

04-15-2008, 03:03 PM

Pinder

04-15-2008, 03:04 PM

Jesus Fuck Christ. That card is going to be huge. Mark my words.

Marked, and /agreed. At 2{rb}, it looks like it would fit well into Dragon Stompy, but I'm not sure they have a lot of use for it.

What I wonder, is if Red Death could use it at all. I mean, does wither actually replace the damage? Because if it does, it would keep Negator from triggering. Of course, it would also make it smaller, so maybe not. This card might generate an entirely new approach to B/R Sui.

quicksilver

04-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Jesus Fuck Christ. That card is going to be huge. Mark my words.

I think it's ok. Unfortunatly it doesn't actually do anything on it's own, unlike sulfuric vortex and it is also useless against many decks (decks that do not block with larger cratures, gain life, or prevent damage). At best a side board card.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 03:08 PM

I mean, does wither actually replace the damage? Because if it does, it would keep Negator from triggering. Of course, it would also make it smaller, so maybe not. This card might generate an entirely new approach to B/R Sui.
I'm not positive...but if it worked like you say here, then burn becomes useless, as it just would attach -1/-1 counters to a player. So I'm pretty sure that's not right. Anyone have the full rules text for Wither?

Still, That+Negator = AgroOwnd

HdH_Cthulhu

04-15-2008, 03:08 PM

Jesus Fuck Christ. That card is going to be huge. Mark my words.

I dont think so! It does nothing... It is a Sb card against life.deck...

Clark Kant

04-15-2008, 03:10 PM

The card see MASSIVE play in multiplayer decks everywhere.

But in legacy, it's at best a sideboard card for random aggro decks. I mean what matchup exactly do you want this thing bad enough that you would devote card space and 3 mana to it, Life? Yeah, that deck sees a lot of play.

rufus

04-15-2008, 03:14 PM

I think the untap ability has really broken potential...for example, consider Magus of the Coffers + Umbral Mantle...infinte P/T if you have more than two Swamps in play.

Actually, you need 5 swamps for that. The combo works with any creature that taps for net 3 mana or more -- it's probably easier to work with Priest of Titania, Krosan Restorer, or Viridian Joiner. It's a good bit easier than the 5 mana required to combo out using Staff of Domination. Even then, minimum 6 mana for a finish isn't unreasonable for legacy.

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 03:19 PM

I'm not positive...but if it worked like you say here, then burn becomes useless, as it just would attach -1/-1 counters to a player. So I'm pretty sure that's not right. Anyone have the full rules text for Wither?
It doesn't work that way. Damage is assigned to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters.

Arsenal

04-15-2008, 03:20 PM

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 03:20 PM

You know how you spot the powerful magic cards?

They're the ones that do things that no other card does.

Granted, prevention of life loss, the non-prevention of damage, and wither are all on other cards, but the combination of all three in one card, for so cheap (seriously, three mana, holy christ) is entirely unique.

Mainboard? No, but it's going to fundamentally alter the sideboarding strategies of quite a few decks.

But Wither still owns Protection from "color" creatures, right? Like if I had a 2/2 Black creature with Wither, and my opponent had a Pro Black Voice of All, does the Voice of All still die? I think it does, but not sure.

No. Wither still "deals" the damage, but instead of having 2 points of damage on a creature, there would be -1/-1 counters applied instead.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 03:21 PM

It doesn't work that way. Damage is assigned to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters.
Aha, "to creatures" ... it's obvious now :wink:

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 03:24 PM

No. Wither still "deals" the damage, but instead of having 2 points of damage on a creature, there would be -1/-1 counters applied instead.
Pro: Black prevents the application of the counters in the same way it prevents the damage from black creatures.

Arsenal

04-15-2008, 03:25 PM

That sucks. I know Protection from "color" isn't too prevelant, but it's annoying to be shut down by a single Mother of Runes sometimes.

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 03:26 PM

Pro: Black prevents the application of the counters in the same way it prevents the damage from black creatures.

Right. That was my point.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 03:26 PM

But Wither still owns Protection from "color" creatures, right? Like if I had a 2/2 Black creature with Wither, and my opponent had a Pro Black Voice of All, does the Voice of All still die? I think it does, but not sure.

Probably not because Wither "deals damage"... but the "can't be prevented" might get around that!!!

Ooo, but Everlasting Torment + Pestilence or Flamebreak or whatnot = Good times :cool: Time to make DrySpell.dec! :tongue:

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 03:26 PM

Right. That was my point.I was agreeing with you, and clarifying.

Pinder

04-15-2008, 03:28 PM

Probably not because Wither "deals damage"... but the "can't be prevented" might get around that!!!

:eek:...I think the man is right. 'Damage can't be prevented' gets around prevention due to protection, right? I'd look up the relevant rule but I'm at work.

Nihil Credo

04-15-2008, 03:30 PM

That sucks. I know Protection from "color" isn't too prevelant, but it's annoying to be shut down by a single Mother of Runes sometimes.
Mother of Runes is a woefully underplayed Tier 1 card.

Nightmare

04-15-2008, 03:32 PM

Wither, in itself, does not circumvent protection from a color. However, Everlasting Torment does.

502.7e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent that has protection is prevented.

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 03:33 PM

Probably not because Wither "deals damage"... but the "can't be prevented" might get around that!!!

Correct. Wither by itself won't get around Pro:Color. The above enchantment, however, will.

Lego

04-15-2008, 03:33 PM

:eek:...I think the man is right. 'Damage can't be prevented' gets around prevention due to protection, right? I'd look up the relevant rule but I'm at work.

Yes, it does.

I remember when I used to board Flaring Pain against Moment's Peace. It was tech.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-15-2008, 03:45 PM

Everlasting Torment doesn't seem that great, it doesn't do anything on it's own for three mana. Unless I'm severely underestimating Wither.

AngryTroll

04-15-2008, 03:45 PM

Also:

Elsewhere Flask http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gif
Artifacthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif
When Elsewhere Flask comes into play, draw a card.
Sacrifice Elsewhere Flask: Lands you control become the basic land type of your choice in addition to their other types until end of turn.

Now this is a decent Blood Moon answer for decks with horrible manabases. It can be cast with a Moon in play, you aren't wasting a card on it, then you pop it when you draw the appropriate removal spell.

Or we could start building decent manabases. Just saying. Feels like I've said that a lot lately.

Nihil Credo

04-15-2008, 03:48 PM

Or we could start building decent manabases. Just saying. Feels like I've said that a lot lately.
I hold the same opinion, and it was implicit in the 'horrible' comment.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Everlasting Torment doesn't seem that great, it doesn't do anything on it's own for three mana. Unless I'm severely underestimating Wither.

Whither...

...punks Goyf, bad.

...lets direct damage (with Everlasting Torment) kill a Stuffy Doll without triggering the ability(!) (not the best Legacy example, but still, it's a neat trick).

...lets weenies meaningfully gang up on huge monsters from turn-to-turn.

...kills the new Persist mechanic (yeh, yeh).

...is just BETTER than damage with respect to critters. (Didn't WoTC say they wanted to make the combat phase meaningful again?)

Wither might not break the game wide open, but it's a nice new mechanic to have exist.

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 04:05 PM

Everlasting Torment doesn't seem that great, it doesn't do anything on it's own for three mana. Unless I'm severely underestimating Wither.

Man, that Umezawa's Jitte card is fucking trash. It doesn't do anything on it's own.

And Bridge From Below? Fucking christ, you can't even play it.

Oh, and what about Goblin Piledri... wait, nevermind.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Jeez, what an asshole :laugh: :laugh:

:wink:

Barook

04-15-2008, 04:07 PM

Sanguine Voyeur

04-15-2008, 04:14 PM

Man, that Umezawa's Jitte card is fucking trash. It doesn't do anything on it's own.

And Bridge From Below? Fucking christ, you can't even play it.

Oh, and what about Goblin Piledri... wait, nevermind.You seem to have misunderstood my conjecture. Although it does nothing on it's own, it doesn't seem worth the mana for the effects. Jitte is colourless removal, pump, and life gain. Bridge from Below creates creatures for free. Piledriver can suddenly swing for seven. Everlasting Torment prevents life gain, damage prevention, and changes the way creatures hurt each other.

Woo-hoo.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 04:14 PM

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 04:17 PM

You seem to have misunderstood my conjecture. Although it does nothing on it's own, it doesn't seem worth the mana for the effects. Jitte is colourless removal, pump, and life gain. Bridge from Below creates creatures for free. Piledriver can suddenly swing for seven. Everlasting Torment prevents life gain, damage prevention, and changes the way creatures hurt each other.

Woo-hoo.Then I guess you'll be letting other people do the legwork to make this useful? It's not like anyone uses creatures or anything...

Clark Kant

04-15-2008, 04:20 PM

Leechridden Swamp
Land - Swamp (U)

Leechridden Swamp comes into play tapped.

:b:, tap: Each opponent loses 1 life. Play this ability only if you control two or more black permanents.

Thoughts on this card?

It's solid in any black based control decks, esp if they can fetch for it.

I for one will be running a single copy or possibly two in Pox (can fetch it with fetchlands).

And I'll be playing it in MBC as well.

Arsenal

04-15-2008, 04:24 PM

Do the new CIPT cycle not actually produce mana?

Sanguine Voyeur

04-15-2008, 04:28 PM

Do the new CIPT cycle not actually produce mana?They do. If a card has a basic land type, it taps for appropriate mana.
Then I guess you'll be letting other people do the legwork to make this useful? It's not like anyone uses creatures or anything...For a control deck, when is it better then just removing the creatures outright? In red you have a multitude of burn spells to remove creatures. In black, you have Smother, Shriekmaw, and an almost uncountable number of other ways to remove creatures.

In aggro deck, how is this better then just dropping a creature? In red you have Sulpher Elemental and the oft game ending Magus of the Moon. In black you have Confidant and several other legitimate threats at two black.

etrigan

04-15-2008, 04:31 PM

Then I guess you'll be letting other people do the legwork to make this useful? It's not like anyone uses creatures or anything...

Wither is good, but so good it's worth 3 mana and a card? Things like Glorious Anthem and Orcish Oriflamme dont see a lick of play, and aren't useless when the opponent has no creatures.

mujadaddy

04-15-2008, 04:41 PM

For a control deck, when is it better then just removing the creatures outright?Persist, for one.
In red you have a multitude of burn spells to remove creatures. In black, you have Smother, Shriekmaw, and an almost uncountable number of other ways to remove creatures.A Mister T. Mongoose calling for you. He doesn't want you to block him with your Wither-creature, but he DOES invite you to attempt to burn or Terror him.

In aggro deck, how is this better then just dropping a creature? In red you have Sulpher Elemental and the oft game ending Magus of the Moon. In black you have Confidant and several other legitimate threats at two black.Magus fills a COMPLETELY different role than...wait, what was your point with that? Anyhow, with N.Torment out, your Pyroclasms become RELEVANT to creatures bigger than x/2, for just one example.

It's not a solution to anything -- but I can see it enhancing certain strategies.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-15-2008, 04:50 PM

Persist, for one.I will not lie, you got me there.
A Mister T. Mongoose calling for you. He doesn't want you to block him with your Wither-creature, but he DOES invite you to attempt to burn or Terror him.So you propose playing a three costing enchantment to deal with just Mongoose? Even when there's a new Pyroclasm that deals three in the same set?
Magus fills a COMPLETELY different role than...wait, what was your point with that? Anyhow, with N.Torment out, your Pyroclasms become RELEVANT to creatures bigger than x/2, for just one example.My point was that there are better things that an aggro or control deck can do, for the same or less mana.
It's not a solution to anything -- but I can see it enhancing certain strategies.Yes, it enhances things. However, it doesn't seem worth the mana, and I especially don't think this is true;
Jesus Fuck Christ. That card is going to be huge. Mark my words.

Nihil Credo

04-15-2008, 05:03 PM

I predict that it will see play in burn/sligh decks as an all-in-one answer to CoP: Red/Sphere of Law, Pulse of the Fields/assorted lifegain, and the Worship + Silver Knight combo (if anyone still plays that). Oh, and obviously against Karach's Energy Field/Lamejaptranslation Wheel combo once my deck absolutely dominates the format.

And that will be it.

Cire

04-15-2008, 05:13 PM

Nihil Credo

04-15-2008, 05:24 PM

I may be still the only person who cares about Fossil Find, but outside the combo potential i see, i think some one also pointed this out: combined with cards like Jotun Grunt and tog it very well can be a recollect for only R or GWhich is good, but the question is: is it a fair trade to cost 1 colourless mana less (than Regrowth) in exchange for requiring another combo piece?

Also, the 'combo' is not as easy as it looks; with Grunt, you will have to wait a few turns to clean your yard from the chaff, and you may not be able to do that at all (what if there are two cards left?). With Psychatog, you have to sacrifice all the food that one assumes you were saving up to turn Tog into a huge monster at a more appropriate time - say, when clashing against a fattie or your opponent's face.

URABAHN

04-15-2008, 05:31 PM

Paradise Mantle + Puresight Merrow looks like something that could be pretty potent, especially combined with Shelldock Isle.

You're kidding, right?

from Cairo

04-15-2008, 05:33 PM

If you are playing Green clearly Regrowth is better, coincidently Regrowth sees next to no play... this new card is bad.

Arsenal

04-15-2008, 05:34 PM

Would Fossil Find work with Boisium Strip combo decks? For fun/casuals of course.....

Cire

04-15-2008, 05:38 PM

Which is good, but the question is: is it a fair trade to cost 1 colourless mana less (than Regrowth) in exchange for requiring another combo piece?

Also, the 'combo' is not as easy as it looks; with Grunt, you will have to wait a few turns to clean your yard from the chaff, and you may not be able to do that at all (what if there are two cards left?). With Psychatog, you have to sacrifice all the food that one assumes you were saving up to turn Tog into a huge monster at a more appropriate time - say, when clashing against a fattie or your opponent's face.

I see fossil find good in two situations, the first is in combo decks. You play a bunch of rituals and tutors and then play a fossil find (1 of probably) and what do you get? another ritual or tutor for only R/G, for example in storm combo you play a Mountain + SSG then Rite of flame and Seething song. Now if you play your fossil find you'll either add +2 storm count or add +2 storm count and R mana.

With the Psychotog deck and the Jotun Grunt deck lets see what your returning. for Jotun grunt your probably playing W/R or the kind so: either Fetchlands/Burn/removal...either one would be good for you, only problem is that it'll be random, but less random then just R: draw a card. Same for the Tog you'll either be returning a counter/fetchland/removal/ or discard. none of which is bad for you, over all its better than R: Draw a card and it comes with the possibility of being a regrowth for 1.

Im not advocating to run it as a 4 of in these type of decks, on the contrary i expect it to be run as a singleton, since multiples are bad.

BreathWeapon

04-15-2008, 05:43 PM

Or we could start building decent manabases. Just saying. Feels like I've said that a lot lately.

That's kind of useful in Tomb/City mana bases, I could see a Stax esq deck running it for one reason or another.

rufus

04-15-2008, 08:56 PM

Paradise Mantle + Puresight Merrow looks like something that could be pretty potent, especially combined with Shelldock Isle.
You're kidding, right?

Not at all. Paradise Mantle+Puresight Merrow turns every draw into a Demonic Consultation -- getting the two together should basically be "I win". Maybe it's better to combine it with counterbalance, or brainstorm, or a spring tide/solidarity style finish. I guess Shelldock Isle -> whatever isn't necessarily the best way to finish.

Cire

04-15-2008, 09:00 PM

Combine that little combo with Future Sight or Magus of the future.....

Pinder

04-15-2008, 10:33 PM

Heap Doll 1
Artifact Creature - Scarecrow Uncommon
Sacrifice Heap Doll: Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.
"I know one night it won't come back. Then I'll know it's truly done its job." - Breanna, cobblesmith
Illus. John Avon #253/301

Some interesting anti-Ichorid board tech? It singlehandedly takes out all of their Bridges, as well as a Dread return (or possibly a Dread Return target). Not sure if it's better than, say Fanatic, but it's colorless and only costs 1, so it's super splashable.

KillemallCFH

04-15-2008, 10:38 PM

Some interesting anti-Ichorid board tech? It singlehandedly takes out all of their Bridges, as well as a Dread return (or possibly a Dread Return target). Not sure if it's better than, say Fanatic, but it's colorless and only costs 1, so it's super splashable.Only question I have is why would you play that over Tormod's Crypt? I suppose in Survival or other decks that have a means of finding creatures more easily than artifacts it might have a place, but I can't see it doing anything better than crypt already does.

rufus

04-15-2008, 10:47 PM

Combine that little combo with Future Sight or Magus of the future.....

Like Shelldock Isle, I think that those qualify as danger of cool things.

memnarch

04-15-2008, 11:12 PM

Loaming Shaman is prob gonna be better for survival decks. Heap Doll is a 1/1 for 1?

Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur "
You seem to have misunderstood my conjecture. Although it does nothing on it's own, it doesn't seem worth the mana for the effects. Jitte is colourless removal, pump, and life gain. Bridge from Below creates creatures for free. Piledriver can suddenly swing for seven. Everlasting Torment prevents life gain, damage prevention, and changes the way creatures hurt each other.

Woo-hoo."

All the other cards are capable of inflicting damage though. It might be interesting to see Everlasting Torment in burn's sideboard. But I feel like it would be a tempo loss that isn't getting you closer to winning. It doesn't feel like a maindeck card to me.

Bovinious

04-15-2008, 11:16 PM

Heap Doll prolly isnt as good Ichorid hate as Mogg Fanatic or Awfulsnout, it does still do bad things for it tho :frown:. This was possibly gunna be a graveyard matters set, but instead its a hybrid mana set with no chase rares, and a GY hate card. DO NOT WANT :cry:

Shawon

04-15-2008, 11:20 PM

Leechridden Swamp
Land - Swamp (U)

Leechridden Swamp comes into play tapped.

:b:, tap: Each opponent loses 1 life. Play this ability only if you control two or more black permanents.

Thoughts on this card?

While this card is probably not Legacy material (waddup wasteland), but in Extended and Standard I love this card. Lands that are capable of winning the game for you are definitely favored in my book. Especially when this card stacks, i.e. having 2 or more is good.

Here's my personal hierarchy of the CIPT basic-type lands:

Black one - Win condition, stacks

White one - Also stacks, and ability is somewhat useful. (If this was blue,
then I imagine it would be completely sick with Teachings. A little mini-eot version of Gaea's blessing, if you will.)

Green one - As long as burn's around, life gain will always have a use, so this land can be somewhat useful, since it stacks. I mean, having 2 of these is not good against a burn opponent, especially when you're buying time to topdeck that Goyf.

Blue one - Kinda pointless. Having multiple is pretty much useless (well, you can look at your lib and your opp's if you have 2) but even if you run a singleton, it doesn't even seem worth it to cut a basic Island for this.

Red one - Virtually useless. Wow, you can only shuffle your library, way to make it even worse.

SpatulaOfTheAges

04-15-2008, 11:31 PM

You know how you spot the powerful magic cards?

They're the ones that do things that no other card does.

I will sell you my Upwellings for 3 dollars a piece, especial priced for you, because I like the cut of your gib.

Thoughseize isn't unique. Not much special about Goyf. Divining Top is a Sylvan Library, basically.

The powerful spells are the ones that were printed too cheap. That's pretty much the gist of it.

Granted, prevention of life loss, the non-prevention of damage, and wither are all on other cards, but the combination of all three in one card, for so cheap (seriously, three mana, holy christ) is entirely unique.

Mainboard? No, but it's going to fundamentally alter the sideboarding strategies of quite a few decks.

If only the white and green decks running damage prevention/life gain had some way of removing enchantments. Oh well. Too bad.

Also, this card doens't answer Confinement. Not in Burn, at least.

TeenieBopper

04-15-2008, 11:40 PM

I will sell you my Upwellings for 3 dollars a piece, especial priced for you, because I like the cut of your gib.

Thoughseize isn't unique. Not much special about Goyf. Divining Top is a Sylvan Library, basically.

The powerful spells are the ones that were printed too cheap. That's pretty much the gist of it.

Depends. Can I get your Garruks, Replenishes, Humilities, Trinispheres, Bridges, Mind's Desires, Forces, LEDs, Burning Wishes, Chalices, Factories/Mutavaults, Moxen, Survivals, and Loams for three bucks a pop too?

Bardo

04-15-2008, 11:46 PM

Power is overwhelmingly a function of relative cost : effect. Novelty isn't nearly as important as breaking fundamental design elements of the game (for instance, 1 land per turn [Fastbond / Moxen / Lotus]; 1 card per turn [Ancestral]; 1 untap / attack step per turn [Time Walk]; etc.). The "best" cards are the ones that break the design core of the game for dirt cheap.

Goyf is broken for a similar reason. Using the mana / creature model, a 1G creature should cost 2/2 or 2/3 if you want to push it; 3/2 or 3/3 if you really want to push it or if they're letting power creep upwards over time. A 5/6 without any appreciable drawback is off the chart. )Not that I think the DCI should do anything about Mr. Goyf; I'm just pointing out that that really good cards are cards that really shouldn't be.)

Bovinious

04-15-2008, 11:48 PM

Depends. Can I get your Trinispheres, Mind's Desires, Factories, and Loams for three bucks a pop too?

Sure thing man, PM me :wink:

SpatulaOfTheAges

04-16-2008, 12:14 AM

Depends. Can I get your Garruks, Replenishes, Humilities, Trinispheres, Bridges, Mind's Desires, Forces, LEDs, Burning Wishes, Chalices, Factories/Mutavaults, Moxen, Survivals, and Loams for three bucks a pop too?

Only if you take all my copies of Form of the Dragon, Transendence, Living Land, Kormus Bell, (R/G/W/U/B) Myojin, (R/G/W/U/B)Bringer, Eon Hub, Shared Fate, Blood Funnel, etc.

Also, right, like Mutavault, Mox and LED are original, and not obviously modeled off earlier cards.

For every good, novel card, there are dozens of interesting but ultimately unplayable duds.

TeenieBopper

04-16-2008, 12:19 AM

For every good, novel card, there are dozens of interesting but ultimately unplayable duds.

Right, but the most powerful cards are generally fairly unique, or the best of a small set of cards (Trinisphere>Sphere of Resistance>Thorn or whatever). You don't see many Grizzly Bears running around, do you?

SpatulaOfTheAges

04-16-2008, 12:28 AM

But what's so effing special or original about Thoughtseize, Ponder, Top, Goyf?

I guess Balance is original. But originality wouldn't have cut it if it had cost one more mana.

Aggro_zombies

04-16-2008, 02:32 AM

Only question I have is why would you play that over Tormod's Crypt? I suppose in Survival or other decks that have a means of finding creatures more easily than artifacts it might have a place, but I can't see it doing anything better than crypt already does.
It attacks for one more damage than Crypt does. Also, it chumps, which Crypt can't do.

...although it's still a lame card.

So far, the only cards I've seen in this set that I'm interested in for this format are Kitchen Finks and Vexing Shusher, both of which will help Diglett.dec. This feels more like a limited set to me, with relatively few constructed bombs outside of Standard...that said, it should be fun in Casual. Oona is definitely going in my :u::b: harem deck. By the way (since this thread has degenerated into an off-topic mess) does anyone here play the harem format? I just finished this awesome deck built around Richard Garfield, Ph.D. It's like an aggro control deck, but the casting costs are such that once the pimp comes down I can combo off and "Tendrils" someone for ten storm or so. Ancestral Recall + High Tide + Turnabout + Yawgmoth's Will ftw.

georgjorge

04-16-2008, 04:32 AM

Zach Tartell

04-16-2008, 08:14 AM

Memory Plunder {u/b}{u/b}{u/b}{u/b}
Instant R
You may play target instant or sorcery card in an opponent's graveyard without paying its mana cost.

Playable in Vintage to use your opponent's restricted bombs (I know nothing of that format...) ?

I feel like this might have that sort of huge spike up to like a fifteen dollar card only to spiral out of rare binders a week or so later. Like, it looks like it has a lot of potential.

But it costs 4.

Aggro_zombies

04-16-2008, 09:46 AM

I feel like this might have that sort of huge spike up to like a fifteen dollar card only to spiral out of rare binders a week or so later. Like, it looks like it has a lot of potential.

But it costs 4.
I think the latter part of that statement is more relevant.

What would want to use it?

Lego

04-16-2008, 10:01 AM

What would want to use it?

Who would want to use it? Or who would use it?

Versus

04-16-2008, 10:10 AM

kicks_422

04-16-2008, 10:12 AM

Memory Plunder {u/b}{u/b}{u/b}{u/b}
Instant R
You may play target instant or sorcery card in an opponent's graveyard without paying its mana cost.

Playable in Vintage to use your opponent's restricted bombs (I know nothing of that format...) ?

You could just play your own restricted bombs.

I think the card is too narrow and too slow. It will get some hype as some sort of stealer-Will, but it will fade out after a while. It could see play in T2 though.

Lego

04-16-2008, 10:15 AM

...lets direct damage (with Everlasting Torment) kill a Stuffy Doll without triggering the ability(!) (not the best Legacy example, but still, it's a neat trick).

Nah, it still triggers the ability. You're still doing damage to Stuffy Doll, you're simply doing it in the form of -1/-1 counters. It does make it a much worse idea for Stuffy Doll to ping himself.

Dilettante

04-16-2008, 10:15 AM

There are very few applications with Memory Plunder. Almost every instance that you want to play your opponent's spell (i.e. in response to Storm or Orim's Chant back), Twincast does it better because you need an immediate response as opposed to post-resolution. You use Twincast to relay Tendrils back... or bounce back their Orim's Chant. Plunder can't do that... I don't see it as being that useful.

rufus

04-16-2008, 10:16 AM

It seems way too conditional. However I think T2 control could get away with making it work. Being able to play an instant speed Damnation or Profane Command (assuming your opponent already played one) cou...nah, it's jank.

Maybe as some kind of sideboard card in Solidarity? It does have some funny potential -- can you keep copying the same Memory Plunder in your opponents GY?

quicksilver

04-16-2008, 10:22 AM

It seems way too conditional. However I think T2 control could get away with making it work. Being able to play an instant speed Damnation or Profane Command (assuming your opponent already played one) cou...nah, it's jank.

This card makes no mention of allowing you to play the spell at instant speed if it's not an instant. Although we don't have the actual wording on the card, as it is now, I believe you can still only play the damnation at sorcery speed.

freakish777

04-16-2008, 12:40 PM

Playable in Vintage to use your opponent's restricted bombs (I know nothing of that format...) ?

Vintage prefers spells to be of the :3::u: casting cost for 4 mana spells (so your Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault can go to work). It won't see any play there (you'll never have quad blue/black and if you do from Rit or Academy there's much better spell to play, like your own restricted cards which you wouldn't cut to make room for this).

Illissius

04-16-2008, 12:41 PM

Lists are fun. These lists are in very roughly descending order of likelihood to see play. (Note that this is quite distinct from and orthogonal to how good or powerful a card is. Ostensibly bad cards with niche uses see more play than cards which are decent, but just barely less powerful than ten other very similar cards).

Some of the names might have changed since when I compiled the lists: eh.

Alright, so, good cards from the set so far:

- Manamorphose
- Fracturing Gust (great Cunning Wish target)
- Vexing Shusher
- Runed Halo
- Graven Cairns cycle

Cards with solid potential:

- Faerie Macabre
- Kitchen Finks
- Stupid Wheel
- Fulminator Mage
- Ashenmoor Gouger
- Beseech the Queen
- Toil to Renown (could be a decent target for Burning Wish in control decks)
- Sygg, River Cutthroat

Cards which could see play if various celestial bodies align themselves in exactly the right way:

- Firespout
- Swans of Bryn Argoll
- Tattermunge Liege
- Demigod of Revenge
- Tattermunge Maniac
- Cursecatcher
- Cragganwick Cremator
- Smash to Smithereens
- Prismatic Omen
- Oona, Queen of the Fae (note: they've actually been called that since Lorwyn)
- Puresight Merrow
- Augury Adept
- Elsewhere Flask
- Wilt-Leaf Liege
- Dusk Urchins
- Boggart Ram-Gang
- Spirit Procession
- Rite of Consumption
- Everlasting Torment
- Flame Javelin
- Gleeful Sabotage
- Rhys the Redeemed
- Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
- Elvish Hexhunter
- Cerebral Bore
- Mercy Killing
- Umbral Mantle
- Painter's Servant
- Wasp Lancer
- Heap Doll

Cards which pretty much suck, but can't be ruled out entirely (and that's using an extremely permissive interpretation of "entirely", especially towards the end):

- Cemetery Puca
- Curse of Chains
- Lurebound Scarecrow
- Guttural Response
- Inkfathom Infiltrator
- Godhead of Awe
- Order of Whiteclay
- Counsel of the Fae
- Oversoul of Dusk
- Giantbaiting
- Pyre Charger
- Dew Infusion
- Dream Salvage
- Cauldron of Souls
- Savor the Moment
- Knacksaw Clique
- Mana Reflection
- Enchanted Evening
- Mirrorweave
- Howl of the Night Pack
- Seedcradle Witch
- Devoted Druid
- Puppeteer Clique
- Rosheen Meanderer
- Wort, the Raidmother
- Thought Reflection
- Ragefanner Giant
- Manaforge Cinder
- Consign to Dream
- Memory Plunder

And lastly, potential reanimation (or cheat-into-play-via-other-means) targets, separate only because I was finding it a pain in the ass to rank them together with the rest:

(no order)
- Twilight Shepherd
- River Kelpie
- Midnight Banshee
- Windbrisk Raptor
- Mossbridge Troll
- Woodfall Primus
- Grim Poppet
- Knollspine Dragon

Go forth and bicker and debate amongst yourselves.

Lego

04-16-2008, 12:55 PM

This card makes no mention of allowing you to play the spell at instant speed if it's not an instant. Although we don't have the actual wording on the card, as it is now, I believe you can still only play the damnation at sorcery speed.

You can play it at instant speed. It works the same way as Guile or Mosswort Bridge, which allow you to play things at instant speed despite not explicitly saying so.

Willoe

04-16-2008, 01:59 PM

You could just play your own restricted bombs.

I think the card is too narrow and too slow. It will get some hype as some sort of stealer-Will, but it will fade out after a while. It could see play in T2 though.

No you can't. That makes the card even worse.

quicksilver

04-16-2008, 03:58 PM

No I think I'm wrong, I guess you can play it immediatly and only immediatly.

MattH

04-16-2008, 05:19 PM

Illisius: you really think Tattermunge Maniac is that farfetched?

Illissius

04-16-2008, 07:15 PM

Not even Goyf Sligh plays Jackal Pup, traditional Sligh doesn't see play (nor does N-land Stompy), and I doubt it'll be good enough for Goblins. That said, it's still solidly in "could find a niche" territory in my list. (I could also turn out to simply be wrong.)

freakish777

04-16-2008, 08:34 PM

Illisius: you really think Tattermunge Maniac is that farfetched?

When was the last time you got run down by Jungle Lions? It's not a bad card, and you'll certainly play against it on occasion and lose to it on occassion, it's just not Tier 1 by any stretch of the imagination. I fail to see how Tattermunge Maniac is that different from Jungle Lion (sure it's a Goblin).

Bovinious

04-16-2008, 09:01 PM

Wallace

04-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Is it just me or is anyone really dissappointed with this set? I mean I know MaRo has a hard on for hybrid, but come on, they printed a 300 card set that looks to have zero (0) chase rares, except maybe Oona...but really nothing is even on the level of Thoughtseize, Garruk, Cryptic Command, Mutavault, Crusher, Chameleon Colossus, etc. I mean the set looks like itll be fun and good in Limited, but I dont want to play Limited if the packs I win have a max value of 6-8$. Anyone else concerned here?

What? Vexing Shusher for one will be an amazing $$ Rare and Fulminater Mage won't be a $20 bill, but will be a chase rare. Swans will be money, so will the Hybrid Land cycle and Sygg, River Cut Cutthroat . This will be the first set in a while where buying a box will be worth it...

memnarch

04-16-2008, 09:12 PM

no I think this set is bringing us some great creatures.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-16-2008, 09:13 PM

This will be the first set in a while where buying a box will be worth it...Garruk? Thoughtseize? Manavault? The Commands?

Lorwyn has plently of money.

Bovinious

04-16-2008, 09:17 PM

What? Vexing Shusher for one will be an amazing $$ Rare and Fulminater Mage won't be a $20 bill, but will be a chase rare. Swans will be money and so will the Hybrid Land cycle. This will be the first set in a while where buying a box will be worth it...

I dont think Shusher is all that, it will maybe be played in goblins decks, and maybe in the SB of Combo decks. I dont see how combo can afford to keep an extra R open for every spell in plays tho...Xantid Swarm just seems better to me. I think they printed the card as an answer to Counterbalance in Extended, so Goblins/Domain Zoo can get around, which it will accomplish, but at a 6-8$ price tag I think.

Fulminator Mage wont be worth much, in Type 2 and Block it fits in no decks, and I dont see a place for it in Extended either. Even if it does see play in some Legacy Sui decks or whatever, that alone wont push its price tag above 5$. Same thing with Swans, the only time that card isnt awful is with Chain of Plasma, which again is a Legacy only combo that wont even be better than current combo. It may hit 8-10 initially and then will probably fall.

I forgot about the lands, the blue ones of those may be worth a pretty penny, and Reflecting Pool may drastically rise, but none of these will be 15-20$ chase rares like the past 3 sets had.

IDK, maybe Im just a cynic but this set looks like it just sucks sucks sucks to me.

Also, you could pretty much break even and sometimes even profit from opening Future Sight boxes when they were still in print, Hell 1 Goyf is more than half the box :wink:

Wallace

04-16-2008, 09:18 PM

Garruk? Thoughtseize? Manavault? The Commands?

Lorwyn has plently of money.

Mutavault was in Morningtide and yes Garruk, Thoughtseize and the command were $$, I forgot, sorry...

I don't think Shusher is all that, it will maybe be played in goblins decks, and maybe in the SB of Combo decks. I dont see how combo can afford to keep an extra R open for every spell in plays tho...Xantid Swarm just seems better to me. I think they printed the card as an answer to Counterbalance in Extended, so Goblins/Domain Zoo can get around, which it will accomplish, but at a 6-8$ price tag I think.

Think back to this post when Shusher is a $12-$18 rare. He single handily shuts down Counterbalance and is a house against almost any control deck. In extended he will be an auto 4 of in RDW and Burn. Look my blistering Firecat hits the board and swings for 7, look my Shrapnel Blast resolves...This card will be played in every Red based aggro deck in every format, he is going to be good!

Fulminator Mage wont be worth much, in Type 2 and Block it fits in no decks, and I dont see a place for it in Extended either. Even if it does see play in some Legacy Sui decks or whatever, that alone wont push its price tag above 5$. Same thing with Swans, the only time that card isnt awful is with Chain of Plasma, which again is a Legacy only combo that wont even be better than current combo. It may hit 8-10 initially and then will probably fall.

Have you seen the top decks in Standard and Extended lately? They all play non-basics, this guy will be played heavily in extended and Standard. He may find room in a Legacy deck but I doubt it. Mutavault is played in almost every standard deck now days and will make a splash in the next extended season.

Tell ya what, just trade or sell me all of your Ful. Mages and Shushers and I will agree with you...

Nihil Credo

04-16-2008, 09:47 PM

Garruk? Thoughtseize? Manavault? The Commands?

Lorwyn has plently of money.
I think Future Sight may still be the best set to buy packs/boxes/cases of, from a money perspective.

Of course, from a money perspective the best path is just to buy singles.

Bovinious

04-16-2008, 09:53 PM

Mutavault was in Morningtide and yes Garruk, Thoughtseize and the command were $$, I forgot, sorry...

Think back to this post when Shusher is a $12-$18 rare. He single handily shuts down Counterbalance and is a house against almost any control deck. In extended he will be an auto 4 of in RDW and Burn. Look my blistering Firecat hits the board and swings for 7, look my Shrapnel Blast resolves...This card will be played in every Red based aggro deck in every format, he is going to be good!

Have you seen the top decks in Standard and Extended lately? They all play non-basics, this guy will be played heavily in extended and Standard. He may find room in a Legacy deck but I doubt it. Mutavault is played in almost every standard deck now days and will make a splash in the next extended season.

Tell ya what, just trade or sell me all of your Ful. Mages and Shushers and I will agree with you...

Im not saying these cards wont be good and played, I just dont think theyll acheive chase-rare status of 12$+ price tags. Shusher is really a thwart to just Counterbalance, and Mage is an answer to Mutavault/colr fixers in type 2/Block, but he just doesnt really fit anywhere, no one plays elementals, he wont be played in Faeries, Elves, Reveillark, Big Mana...I just dont see his place. I think these will both be 6-8$ rares, playable, but not across a wide variety of decks and formats. I could be wrong, but Im just not seeing it. Well wait and see I guess, and yes by all means quote me on this Id love to be proven wrong so we dont have another Prophecy/Champions on our hands :wink:

BreathWeapon

04-16-2008, 10:48 PM

Vexing Shusher is going to be the $ card, he's a lynch pin card in aggro and combo, that's easily 20+. He's no Tarmogoyf, but he's still one of the most format warping cards printed in this block.

edgewalker

04-16-2008, 11:10 PM

Illisius: you really think Tattermunge Maniac is that farfetched?

I felt the same way when I saw it. I wanted it to be good so bad, but Savannah Lions is almost never played because the creatures now are either bigger, or are just better. I really wish this card was around before the list separation, I would have killed for it.

Barook

04-17-2008, 10:56 AM

New, good Merfolk:

Cursecatcher :u:
Creature- Merfolk Wizard (U)
Sacrifice Cursecatcher: Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays :1:.
1/1

Also interesting because it can copy Goyfs:

Cemetary Puca :1::ub::ub:
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may pay :1:. If you do, Cemetary Puca becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability.
1/2

Hightower

04-17-2008, 11:02 AM

Wow! Cursecatcher looks decent indeed .. I'm happy =)

Pinder

04-17-2008, 11:05 AM

New, good Merfolk:

Cursecatcher :u:
Creature- Merfolk Wizard (U)
Sacrifice Cursecatcher: Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays :1:.
1/1

A ground-pounding Spiketail Hatchling? Interesting. I would point out that Spiketail Hatchling sees no play, but the 1 mana here can make a difference. Plus it's a merfolk, so it goes in all those great merfolk tribal decks.

.....wait.

Also interesting because it can copy Goyfs:

Cemetary Puca :1::ub::ub:
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may pay :1:. If you do, Cemetary Puca becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability.
1/2

This assumes that you can kill Goyfs first, and that's pretty hard to do sometimes. I don't really think this will see much play either, to be honest.

Hightower

04-17-2008, 11:08 AM

Cursecatcher is like.... Ichorid-tech :P I'm definately gonna test him in my 'Goblins-with-FoWs.dec'

rufus

04-17-2008, 11:09 AM

Also interesting because it can copy Goyfs:

Cemetary Puca :1::ub::ub:
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may pay :1:. If you do, Cemetary Puca becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability.
1/2

At twice the cost, and conditional...I'd rather play it with Phyrexian Dreadnought.

freakish777

04-17-2008, 11:23 AM

Cursecatcher :u:
Creature- Merfolk Wizard (U)
Sacrifice Cursecatcher: Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays :1:.
1/1

It's no Lackey, but it's certainly better than any other 1 drop Merfolk at the moment (perhaps as good as Mogg Fanatic?).

mujadaddy

04-17-2008, 11:30 AM

This assumes that you can kill Goyfs first, and that's pretty hard to do sometimes. I don't really think this will see much play either, to be honest.
You're thinking like a Blue Mage. Black kills Goyfs all day long.

Barook

04-17-2008, 01:20 PM

At twice the cost, and conditional...I'd rather play it with Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Well, that works, too.

Clark Kant

04-17-2008, 01:23 PM

Sui Black runs tons of creature kill.

Cemetary Puca might be a good sideboard card against aggro decks with large creatures (Farie Stompy, Dragon Stompy etc). At worst, it can copy your own Hyppie.

iceage4life

04-17-2008, 01:41 PM

Vexing Shusher is going to be the $ card, he's a lynch pin card in aggro and combo, that's easily 20+. He's no Tarmogoyf, but he's still one of the most format warping cards printed in this block.

Umm, he is not that good. #1 he is super easy to kill #2 he adds +1 mana to all your spells.

rufus

04-17-2008, 01:53 PM

Cemetary Puca could also work OK with Vanishing (no counters means the sac is never triggered - nothing particularly strong that I see though), Echo, and some odds and ends like Ovinomancer or Sneak Attack, Magus of the Jar is a pretty big stretch.

It's hard to imagine it as a better choice than Volrath's Shapeshifter in combo though.

BreathWeapon

04-17-2008, 02:29 PM

Umm, he is not that good. #1 he is super easy to kill #2 he adds +1 mana to all your spells.

Yeah, people said the same thing about Tarmogoyf before it hit 20$.

AngryTroll

04-17-2008, 03:04 PM

Umm, he is not that good. #1 he is super easy to kill #2 he adds +1 mana to all your spells.

Well, he makes you have 1 open for all your spells, but except against Counterbalance, you can then use that mana for things like Ponder, activating Top, etc. Against Counterbalance, basically everything costs one more, but against normal countermagic, only your important spells need to have one (or a few) extra mana available.

Pinder

04-17-2008, 03:09 PM

Yeah, people said the same thing about Tarmogoyf before it hit 20$.

They said that Tarmogoyf adds 1 mana to all of your spells? When?

Look, Tarmogoyf is usually a 3/4 (or better) for 2 mana with no appreciable drawback. Shusher is a 2/2 uncounterable for 2 mana with a decent ability. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. If the oranges in this case happen to be tanks.

dahcmai

04-17-2008, 04:12 PM

Now I do like this one. Seems like a natural fit with Moat, but that may just be a little much. I can't honestly think of anything I would replace this with. Elephant Grass in Enchantress dosn't even seem like it would get replaced. Though you have to admit it's a powerful effect.

Raking Canopy

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gif Enchantmenthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-uncommon.gifWhenever a creature with flying attacks you, Raking Canopy deals 4 damage to it."Raven's Run has awoken, and ravens will no longer cry in it's branches."
-Roon Ghastbark

from Cairo

04-17-2008, 04:19 PM

New, good Merfolk:

Cursecatcher :u:
Creature- Merfolk Wizard (U)
Sacrifice Cursecatcher: Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays :1:.
1/1

This card seems quite good.

AngryTroll

04-17-2008, 04:22 PM

Raking Canopy

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gif Enchantmenthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-uncommon.gifWhenever a creature with flying attacks you, Raking Canopy deals 4 damage to it.

"Sure, I'll take away the only thing you had going for you over Thresh, Madness."
-Raking Canopy

Hightower

04-17-2008, 04:22 PM

@ Dachmai

It's good against what in Legacy? Only Faerie Stompy (which seems to be declining in top8s), it doesnt handle Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker or Exalted Angel or any cards from Dragon Stompy

from Cairo

04-17-2008, 04:25 PM

Raking Canopy
Enchantment
Whenever a creature with flying attacks you, Raking Canopy deals 4 damage to it.

"Sure, I'll take away the only thing you had going for you over Thresh, Madness."
-Raking Canopy

Only no one would ever waste space in their 75 for this card, and it wasn't as if Madness' flying guys was enough to make it playable over Thresh anyway.

BreathWeapon

04-17-2008, 04:36 PM

They said that Tarmogoyf adds 1 mana to all of your spells? When?

Look, Tarmogoyf is usually a 3/4 (or better) for 2 mana with no appreciable drawback. Shusher is a 2/2 uncounterable for 2 mana with a decent ability. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. If the oranges in this case happen to be tanks.

I meant Tarmogoyf was undervalued before people realized it's potential, and people are disregarding Vexing Shusher in the same way. It's going to be the most expensive card in the set barring some unforeseen release, you may as well not get caught buying them for twice as much a month from now.

iOWN

04-17-2008, 04:49 PM

Faerie Macabre 1bb
Faerie Rogue C
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.
2/2
66/301

georgjorge

04-17-2008, 04:51 PM

Not that good compared to Crypt, but a copy might replace Offalsnout or Yixlid Jailer in Survival, since those decks are always hurting for cheap/free cards. It can also be used before your first main phase (erm...against Hulk Flash...it comes a bit late for that :wink: ) and is uncounterable, for what it's worth.

AngryTroll

04-17-2008, 04:57 PM

Only no one would ever waste space in their 75 for this card, and it wasn't as if Madness' flying guys was enough to make it playable over Thresh anyway.

Right, no one ever plays Madness anyways. It would still be hilarious to have this against the one Madness player I have run into since Legacy Thresh was invented.

rufus

04-17-2008, 05:01 PM

I meant Tarmogoyf was undervalued before people realized it's potential, and people are disregarding Vexing Shusher in the same way. It's going to be the most expensive card in the set barring some unforeseen release, you may as well not get caught buying them for twice as much a month from now.

Except that Tarmogoyf is a generic victory condition - it splashes easily, and can win games, while Vexing Shusher's ability is slow, highly conditional, and, basically, only prevents loosing to counterbalance. Sure, it might find its way into a deck as a 1 of answer, on in a sideboard, but can you provide an example of a deck that would really want to play Shusher as a 4-of?

More generally speaking - bombs and other victory conditions can handle being slow and expensive. Answers have to be fast and cheap. Shusher's activation cost and casting cost make him impractical in legacy as an answer, his ability won't hinder the opponent, and he's not tough enough to be a beater.

BreathWeapon

04-17-2008, 05:24 PM

Except that Tarmogoyf is a generic victory condition - it splashes easily, and can win games, while Vexing Shusher's ability is slow, highly conditional, and, basically, only prevents loosing to counterbalance. Sure, it might find its way into a deck as a 1 of answer, on in a sideboard, but can you provide an example of a deck that would really want to play Shusher as a 4-of?

More generally speaking - bombs and other victory conditions can handle being slow and expensive. Answers have to be fast and cheap. Shusher's activation cost and casting cost make him impractical in legacy as an answer, his ability won't hinder the opponent, and he's not tough enough to be a beater.

Consider Vexing Shusher in Standard, Extended and Legacy, not just a single format. For aggro, being an uncounterable anti-counter and a 2/2 beater is about as cost efficient as it gets, and for combo he turns combo's role from the beat down deck to the inevitable deck against control.

Compare Vexing Shusher just to Orim's Chant, it's one dimentional and used in two formats at a price tag of 20$+, I can't see how Vexing Shusher wont hit the same mark when you take Standard into consideration.

Casting cost and activation cost make him impractical in this format? Have you even play tested with the card in TES or Zoo?

quicksilver

04-17-2008, 05:37 PM

Faerie Macabre 1bb
Faerie Rogue C
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.
2/2
66/301

Actually I think this card might be quite good in Survival. The key point being that it costs zero mana to use, is searchable with survival, and plays very nicely with witness/genesis. Personally I think this is going to replace loaming shaman.

The surprise factor of this is very nice, especially being uncounterable. For example someone might swing with a goyf, you can block, put damage on the stack, then survival for this guy and remove cards to kill the goyf.

It also seems good in the survival mirror, they use witness, in response go get this and use it for just one mana.

I don't think it's good enough for the main but I think I will be playing 1 in my SB.

Oh ya, you can also cast this as a 2/2 flyer for three mana, perhaps it is main deck worthy.

04-17-2008, 06:07 PM

That guy is pretty good, yea. Also happens to be nice against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid.

URABAHN

04-17-2008, 06:33 PM

Pre-orders for Shusher are reaching $50. I know because someone's nearly outbid me (http://cgi.ebay.com/VEXING-SHUSHER-x-4-Shadowmoor-Mtg-Magic-PREsale-x4_W0QQitemZ250237139551QQihZ015QQcategoryZ19115QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).

Wallace

04-17-2008, 06:35 PM

Pre-orders for Shusher are reaching $50. I know because someone's nearly outbid me.

QFT...same here...Just remember, Shusher is the release event promo, its the shitty "shifted" foil, but its still a shusher...

quicksilver

04-17-2008, 06:39 PM

Pre-orders for Shusher are reaching $50. [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250237139551&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=015[/url]. I know because someone's nearly outbid me.

Personally I don't think it's worth near that, imo i'd say not mroe than 10.

Wallace

04-17-2008, 06:41 PM

It looks like Shusher will be UGLY, o well...

http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/ea/0b/5e62_1.JPG

URABAHN

04-17-2008, 06:47 PM

Personally I don't think it's worth near that, imo i'd say not mroe than 10.

Someone break down uses for Shusher other than laughing at C-balance. What format is he BEST for?

Wallace

04-17-2008, 07:06 PM

Someone break down uses for Shusher other than laughing at C-balance. What format is he BEST for?

Think back to this post when Shusher is a $12-$18 rare. He single handily shuts down Counterbalance and is a house against almost any control deck. In extended he will be an auto 4 of in RDW and Burn. Look my blistering Firecat hits the board and swings for 7, look my Shrapnel Blast resolves...This card will be played in every Red based aggro deck in every format, he is going to be good!...

Like I said before, I think Shusher will make his biggest impact in Extended and he will do well in Legacy. The fact that Shusher is un-counterable is awesome, yes he can be easily killed by 95% of the removal in both formats, but the fact that he needs to be dealt with as soon as he hits the table, makes him good. I didn't want to compare Shusher to Goyf, they are two completely different creatures, but like Goyf, Shusher can swing a game in your favor very quickly...I am going to love casting this guy turn two or three in legacy and making my POP's, bolts and other burn spells un-counterable.

On another note...This card will be nice in limited and may have potential in a SB somewhere in some constructed format...What do you think?

Consign to Dream

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifInstanthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif

Return target permanent to its owner's hand. If that permanent is red or green, put it on top of its owner's library instead.

I mean nothing slows down a good aggro deck more than haveing there Goyf or other fat ie thrown on top of there deck!

This also seems like it could be good, Howling Mine and Underworld Dreams in the smae card...Sick art either way.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/spitefulvisions1.jpg

Angelfire

04-17-2008, 08:28 PM

New, good Merfolk:

Cursecatcher :u:
Creature- Merfolk Wizard (U)
Sacrifice Cursecatcher: Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays :1:.
1/1

Because it can counter instants or sorceries only this is not a 1 mana ground spiketail hatchling. I think that simple fact ruins the card for any usability.

Overall this set has a lot of legacy playable cards or at least good cards you could lose to. Most sets offer little or nothing for legacy, this set will have a good amount of impact on the format.

dahcmai

04-17-2008, 08:55 PM

@ Dachmai

It's good against what in Legacy? Only Faerie Stompy (which seems to be declining in top8s), it doesnt handle Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker or Exalted Angel or any cards from Dragon Stompy

Yeah, that's what I thought also. I just mentioned it's a powerful effect, it's just too bad there isn't much it's worth using it for.

quicksilver

04-17-2008, 10:33 PM

Because it can counter instants or sorceries only this is not a 1 mana ground spiketail hatchling. I think that simple fact ruins the card for any usability.

Overall this set has a lot of legacy playable cards or at least good cards you could lose to. Most sets offer little or nothing for legacy, this set will have a good amount of impact on the format.

I was thinking the opposet. I don't think many cards in this set will be seen in many top tier decks, maybe a one of here or there. The only card I think that has the potential to make an impact on the format is the swan, and that is if it ends up being good.

Angelfire

04-17-2008, 11:52 PM

I was thinking the opposet. I don't think many cards in this set will be seen in many top tier decks, maybe a one of here or there. The only card I think that has the potential to make an impact on the format is the swan, and that is if it ends up being good.

Cards like Fulminator Mage and Shusher make this set more relevant than almost all sets in recent years. Cards don't have to be in tier 1-2 decks to have impact. There are about a dozen solid cards that will see some play regardless. I mean, name 1 card in Betrayers (besides Jitte, without looking at a set list) that is good. This is how it is for most sets in Magic.

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2008, 12:03 AM

Cards like Fulminator Mage and Shusher make this set more relevant than almost all sets in recent years.

Its gonna be really tough to top Future Sight. I mean, compared to that set this one is crappy, and Morningtide is a pile of shit.

Cire

04-18-2008, 01:38 AM

this may just be a dumb combo, but i though it was cool. Puca's Mischief is a really interesting card and combined with Colfenor's Plans it makes it so you can steal your opponents Goyf and take away his draw step and he can only play 1 spell per turn. It's not fantastic but it is a two card combo in black/blue that basically wins you the game.

Edit: it also acts as donate as part of the trix combo, so you can put in illusions of Grandeur for redundancy

Barook

04-18-2008, 03:21 AM

Its gonna be really tough to top Future Sight. I mean, compared to that set this one is crappy, and Morningtide is a pile of shit.

There will always be at least one playable card among the set - even Champions had SDT, Betrayers Jitte and Saviors Pithing Needle.
Morningtide had Countryside Crusher and Warren Weirding as cards that matter.

I think that Shadowmoor is a disappointment. Its focus on Limited resulted in tons of absolutely overcosted jank and has Crapigawa all writen over it - which is a shame, considering the waste of awesome artwork and hybrid cards.

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2008, 03:38 AM

There will always be at least one playable card among the set - even Champions had SDT, Betrayers Jitte and Saviors Pithing Needle.
Morningtide had Countryside Crusher and Warren Weirding as cards that matter.

True, but FS had a bunch of them: The obvious, Narcomoeba, Tombstalker, Magus of the Moon, Ganthan Raiders, Bridge from Below, Street Wraith. There's also some good second tier cards like Yixlid Jailer, the Pacts and Epocrasite. It was a very good set for legacy.

Nihil Credo

04-18-2008, 03:48 AM

True, but FS had a bunch of them: The obvious, Narcomoeba, Tombstalker, Magus of the Moon, Ganthan Raiders, Bridge from Below, Street Wraith. There's also some good second tier cards like Yixlid Jailer, the Pacts and Epocrasite. It was a very good set for legacy.
Seems as good a time as any to post a list of Legacy relevant cards I had noted down some weeks ago out of boredom.

(The marks next to each card are supposed to mean something like *Staple, +Played, -Playable, .Bullet, ?Potential, but don't pay too much attention to them.)

Morningtide
* Countryside Crusher
* Warren Weirding
+ Taurean Mauler
- Mutavault
- Bitterblossom
. Murmuring Bosk
. Offalsnout

Lorwyn
* Thoughtseize
* Ponder
* Shriekmaw
+ Hoofprints of the Stag
+ Gaddock Teeg
+ Doran, the Siege Tower
+ Wort, Boggart Auntie
+ Oblivion Ring
- Garruk Wildspeaker
- Jace Beleren
- Thorn of Amethyst
. Ingot Chewer
. Wispmare
. Rings of Brighthearth

Future Sight
* Tarmogoyf
* Narcomoeba
* Magus of the Moon
* Bridge from Below
* Tombstalker
* Gathan Raiders
+ Yixlid Jailer
+ Pact of Negation
+ Summoner's Pact
- Street Wraith
- Epochrasite
- Glittering Wish
- Maelstrom Djinn
. Tolaria West
. Horizon Canopy
? Aven Mindcensor

Planar Chaos
* Extirpate
* Damnation
+ Sinew Sliver
+ Magus of the Tabernacle
+ Keldon Marauders
+ Simian Spirit Guide
+ Sulfur Elemental
- Harmonize
- Blood Knight
- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- Mana Tithe
- Seal of Primordium
- Stonecloaker
- Akroma, Angel of Fury
. Big Game Hunter
. Darkheart Sliver

Time Spiral
* Krosan Grip
* Dread Return
* Empty the Warrens
+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Smallpox
+ Serra Avenger
+ Rift Bolt
- Ancient Grudge
- Think Twice
- Trickbind
- Ancestral Vision
- Mangara of Corondor
. Harmonic Sliver
. Chromatic Star
. Gemstone Caverns
? Greater Gargadon

Coldsnap
* Counterbalance
+ Jotun Grunt
- Stromgald Crusader
- Rune Snag
- Vexing Sphinx
- Scrying Sheets
? Perilous Research
? Zur the Enchanter
? Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

Dissension
* Spell Snare
* Protean Hulk
+ Rakdos Pit Dragon
- Trygon Predator
- Condemn
- Crime//Punishment
- Simic Sky Swallower
. Indrik Stomphowler
. Dovescape
. Loaming Shaman
. Demonfire
. Ghost Quarter
. Three shocklands
? Hide//Seek

Guildpact
* Leyline of the Void
+ Burning-Tree Shaman
+ Tin-Street Hooligan
- Repeal
- Castigate
. Three shocklands
. Mizzium Transreliquat
? Hatching Plans

Ravnica
* Dark Confidant
* Life from the Loam
* Golgari Grave-Troll
* Stinkweed Imp
+ Loxodon Hierarch
+ Remand
- Bottled Cloister
- Lightning Helix
- Watchwolf
- Suppression Field
- Putrefy
- Helldozer
. Grave-Shell Scarab
. Darkblast
. Four shocklands
. Flame-Kin Zealot
? Chord of Calling

Saviours of Kamigawa
* Pithing Needle
- Hand of Cruelty
- Twincast
- Tomb of Urami
. Miren, the Moaning Well
? Thoughts of Ruin

Betrayers of Kamigawa
* Umezawa's Jitte
+ Threads of Disloyalty
- Iwamori of the Open Fist
- Hokori, Dust Drinker
- Ninja of the Deep Hours
- Disrupting Shoal
. Patron of the Akki
. Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
? Orb of Dreams

Champions of Kamigawa
* Sensei's Divining Top
+ Isamaru, Hound of Konda
+ Ghostly Prison
+ Gifts Ungiven
+ Lava Spike
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Desperate Ritual
- Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
. Dosan the Falling Leaf
. Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Fifth Dawn
* Engineered Explosives
* Eternal Witness
* Trinket Mage
* Vedalken Shackles
* Crucible of Worlds
* Serum Visions
+ Magma Jet
- Cranial Plating
- Night's Whisper
- Razormane Masticore
. Conjurer's Bauble
. Auriok Salvagers

Darksteel
* Skullclamp
* AEther Vial
* Echoing Truth
* Sword of Fire and Ice
* Trinisphere
- Arcbound Ravager
- Flamebreak
. Viridian Zealot
. Pulse of the Fields
. Darksteel Colossus

Mirrodin
* Chrome Mox
* Chalice of the Void
* Seething Song
* Thirst for Knowledge
* Arc-Slogger
+ Disciple of the Vault
+ Thirst for Knowledge
+ Troll Ascetic
+ Mindslaver
+ Sundering Titan
- Isochron Scepter
- Slith Firewalker
- Artifact lands
- Spoils of the Vault
- Rule of Law
- Frogmite
. Pyrite Spellbomb
. Duplicant
. Platinum Angel

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2008, 04:39 AM

Excellent list. I think that SSG is a staple but whatever. Also, this doesnt square:

- Arcbound Ravager
+ Disciple of the Vault

Anyway, thanks for the copypasta.

Maveric78f

04-18-2008, 04:43 AM

It's no Lackey, but it's certainly better than any other 1 drop Merfolk at the moment (perhaps as good as Mogg Fanatic?).

It's indeed a very good card for the merfolk theme since good merfolk builds run 4*waste 4* port 4*stifle and vial makes it even more powerful. I'm afraid that it be quite limited against the ichorid's bridges since it needs a target to be sacrificed, and that Ichorid can keep let their ichorid die at end of turn in order to generate zombies. As Merfolk usually plays very few (or no) instant spells that are not reactive (only stifle, fow and daze usually), you can't sacrifice it when you want (you can still stifle your rishadan, waste or fetch and counter the stifle effect, but that's quite a poor tech.

Barook

04-18-2008, 05:46 AM

Hightower

04-18-2008, 06:01 AM

Wasn't Tarmogoyf in Future Sight? Oh wait..

georgjorge

04-18-2008, 06:59 AM

Impromptu Raid 3{gr}
Enchantment
2{gr}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it isn't a creature put it in your graveyard. Otherwise, put that card in to play. That creature has haste. Sacrifice it at end of turn.

Kinda like Sneak attack...it requires some other card to set it up (Top/Worldly Tutor/Brainstorm), but then doesn't cost you a card in hand...and can be played in a better color then red.

In other news, the spoiler on MTGSal seems to be complete, and there's already a MWS patch out ! Those guys are good...

Maveric78f

04-18-2008, 07:12 AM

This set is very poor for legacy. From what I've seen, only that 4/3 flying may find itself a way to the top tiers.

georgjorge

04-18-2008, 08:04 AM

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 08:11 AM

quicksilver

04-18-2008, 08:39 AM

I dont know if any one has mentioned this card yet but it seems that the card is realy good...

Faerie Macabre :1: :b: :b:
Creature - Faerie Rogue
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.

It was mentioned although not many people are talking about it, and I think it will find a home in survival, at least as a one of in the SB.

Maveric78f

04-18-2008, 09:27 AM

Well, it's not the greatest set, but it does have some intriguing mechanics that could be breakable, or be made interesting by sets that follow. And, like Illisius' list says, at least Manamorphose, Shusher (who I think will be great) and Runed Halo WILL see play.

Manamorphose OK.

Shusher, I'm sorry but I really don't see in which deck it could see play.

Runed Halo is another 2CC solution for white against combo. It already had a lot of alternatives from the 2CC artifacts (chalice, thorns, sphere) to the 2CC creatures (true believer, gaddock teeg). The good thing about runed halo is that it's rarely (or never) a dead card. Anyway, not a lot of decks can afford to pay WW at this moment.

Faerie Macabre or the force spike merfolk are a quite good card too, but they remain cards that only a very small proportion of decks could play.

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 09:41 AM

Manamorphose OK.

Shusher, I'm sorry but I really don't see in which deck it could see play.

Runed Halo is another 2CC solution for white against combo. It already had a lot of alternatives from the 2CC artifacts (chalice, thorns, sphere) to the 2CC creatures (true believer, gaddock teeg). The good thing about runed halo is that it's rarely (or never) a dead card. Anyway, not a lot of decks can afford to pay WW at this moment.

Faerie Macabre or the force spike merfolk are a quite good card too, but they remain cards that only a very small proportion of decks could play.

Goblins, burn, survival. And theres probably many more.

Maveric78f

04-18-2008, 09:46 AM

quicksilver

04-18-2008, 10:45 AM

I highly doubt I will be playing it in survival. It's jsut too weak of a card. Agaisnt a deck without counters it's jsut a 2/2 bear, so it's too weak to play in the main. And it's only good to help resolve survival, so it has to be a 4 of in the SB, and that's too many spaces to designate.

Arsenal

04-18-2008, 10:48 AM

Shusher might find a home in TES's sideboard.

Lego

04-18-2008, 11:00 AM

I mean, name 1 card in Betrayers (besides Jitte, without looking at a set list) that is good. This is how it is for most sets in Magic.

I had posted a list of relevant cards from the past few sets, but Nihil's is almost exactly the same (slight differences here and there.) Anyway, my conclusion was:

Dark Confidant, Life from the Loam, Pithing Needle, Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, Dread Return, heck, even the Planeswalkers have all had a bigger impact on Legacy than Shadowmoor ever will.

quicksilver

04-18-2008, 01:44 PM

Don't think I saw anyone mention this yet:

Gleeful Sabotage 1G
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
Conspire

I think this will be a replacement for survial decks that run hull breach as a wish target. Advantages it has over hull breach:
No red to cast it.
I think it will hit two things more often than hull breach.
Can get around a counter by making a second copy of itself.
Can get around counterbalance since counterbalance doesn't trigger off the copy, of course they can jsut counter the copy.

Disadvantges:
Sometimes it won't be able to hit two things while hull breach can, but I still think this will hit two things more often than hull breach will.

freakish777

04-18-2008, 02:20 PM

It also seems good in the survival mirror

In the Survival mirror he takes out the perfect number of cards as well, Squee & Genesis...

Illissius

04-18-2008, 03:03 PM

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 03:24 PM

Goblins? Against which counterspells are already bad because of vial and lackey?

Burn? Sorry I don't understand.

Survival? Maybe the only one where it could see play. But once survival is out, it's often useless too because you already have a recursion engine. Before survival, it's unlikely that you have it in hand (because you're not going to play it 4*, aren't you?).

If you look into any of these threads you will see that people are testing it. In all the goblins lists in the thread there may be one that isnt playing 3-4 in the board. Shusher belongs in burn because it trumps the one card that hurts the deck the most: counterbalance. There not much else to it.

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2008, 04:02 PM

Counterbalance kinda sucks against Goblins.

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 05:42 PM

Wowowow, did I say Goblins? I said that its good at stopping counterbalance for burn. I was trying to explain why shusher belongs in burn and I did. When did I say that shusher is for stopping counterbalance against Goblins?

etrigan

04-18-2008, 06:10 PM

Illuminated Folio 5
Artifact
1,T , Reveal two cards from your hand that share a color: Draw a card.

CC of 5 might be a bit steep for Legacy, but this is going to see play somewhere.

MattH

04-18-2008, 06:24 PM

Illuminated Folio 5
Artifact
1,T , Reveal two cards from your hand that share a color: Draw a card.

CC of 5 might be a bit steep for Legacy, but this is going to see play somewhere.
Yeah - block and maybe standard. This is like Whispers of the Muse-quality card drawing. Not impressed.

raharu

04-18-2008, 06:35 PM

A draw engine for MBC, perhaps? The bad part (outside of it's atrocious mana cost) is the fact that you have to have at least two cards in hand.

Maveric78f

04-18-2008, 06:38 PM

If you look into any of these threads you will see that people are testing it. In all the goblins lists in the thread there may be one that isnt playing 3-4 in the board. Shusher belongs in burn because it trumps the one card that hurts the deck the most: counterbalance. There not much else to it.

The fact that people are dumb does not mean that you should copy their dumbness. Burn is the aggro/combo deck in those MUs. And playing this Shusher won't help.

Jak

04-18-2008, 07:00 PM

The fact that people are dumb does not mean that you should copy their dumbness. Burn is the aggro/combo deck in those MUs. And playing this Shusher won't help.

So playing Krosan Grips in RG Sligh makes you a control deck? When a card that is played all over owns your deck, it is awesome to have answers for it.

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2008, 07:09 PM

Illissius

04-18-2008, 07:20 PM

Illuminated Folio 5
Artifact
1,T , Reveal two cards from your hand that share a color: Draw a card.

CC of 5 might be a bit steep for Legacy, but this is going to see play somewhere.

Er? In limited, maybe. This is pretty significantly worse than Jayemdae Tome.

rufus

04-18-2008, 09:18 PM

Does Rofellos/Devoted Druid/Priest of Titania/Krosan Restorer/Viridian Joiner + Umbral Mantle have legs as a combo in legacy? It's relatively lean and the cards have alternative uses.

atv

04-19-2008, 02:42 AM

Right, no one ever plays Madness anyways. It would still be hilarious to have this against the one Madness player I have run into since Legacy Thresh was invented.

Well, Roland Chang won the 2006 Legacy Champs with Madness. :wink:

Race War

04-19-2008, 07:44 PM

Has anyone else noticed the interaction between Grindstone and Painter's Servant? Mill an entire library for 6 colorless mana. Unless I'm misunderstanding the way these abilities interact.

Nihil Credo

04-19-2008, 07:51 PM

Has anyone else noticed the interaction between Grindstone and Painter's Servant? Mill an entire library for 6 colorless mana. Unless I'm misunderstanding the way these abilities interact.
Nice find! Not sure it's better than Rings+Vault, but if nothing else it doesn't cost you a paycheck.

Bardo

04-19-2008, 08:28 PM

Illuminated Folio 5
Artifact
1,T , Reveal two cards from your hand that share a color: Draw a card.

CC of 5 might be a bit steep for Legacy, but this is going to see play somewhere.

If Mind's Eye (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=25954) hasn't made the cut, this definitely won't.

MattH

04-20-2008, 02:59 AM

A draw engine for MBC, perhaps? The bad part (outside of it's atrocious mana cost) is the fact that you have to have at least two cards in hand.

MBC has so many decent card drawing spells available to it already. Assuming you have Coffers, Staff of Domination comes to mind.

Illissius

04-20-2008, 05:52 AM

Hmm, seems Painter's Servant is different from what was in the MTGS spoiler (1/2 and only affected permanents). This makes it quite a bit more potentially useful. (Previously, it was just a fragile version of Shifting Sky.)

Soulles

04-20-2008, 09:54 AM

i am confused.

I played the pre release yesterday in Holland. I got the Demigod as promo.

How can other get vexer?

Sanguine Voyeur

04-20-2008, 09:57 AM

Demigod of Revenge is the pre release promo. Vexing Susher is the release promo, given away at the release events in two weeks.

Nihil Credo

04-20-2008, 11:44 AM

(Warning: Limited commentary ahead)

If what I witnessed at the prerelease is any indication, black is fucking nuts in Sealed - it was everywhere. Wither is a beating, and its -1/-1 shenanigans (from both U\B and R\B) are top-notch. White seems a close second, with ridiculously undercosted G\W beasts and efficient U\W removal and fliers.

Also, watch out for the Auras. The "+1/+1 and X if color A, +1/+1 and Y if colour B" ones are totally worth their risk. Plus there are some randomly great ones like the new Serra's Embrace.

Lego

04-20-2008, 01:15 PM

Big surprise, what I noticed is that this limited format is ruled by 7 mana creatures. Seriously, if you're playing sealed, just look for all your 7 mana dudes, and the play them all. They'll win.

Happy Gilmore

04-20-2008, 06:03 PM

Has anyone else noticed the interaction between Grindstone and Painter's Servant? Mill an entire library for 6 colorless mana. Unless I'm misunderstanding the way these abilities interact.

Did you really come up with this on your own? Thats fantastic! And the mana works out perfectly!

turn one Cast Grindstone, turn 2 Painter's Servant, and turn 3 activate. You are the man!

Barook

04-20-2008, 07:34 PM

Has anyone else noticed the interaction between Grindstone and Painter's Servant? Mill an entire library for 6 colorless mana. Unless I'm misunderstanding the way these abilities interact.

Wow, that's really sexy, especially with accel.

Plus, pitching lands to FoW is fun.

Happy Gilmore

04-20-2008, 08:10 PM

Wow, that's really sexy, especially with accel.

Plus, pitching lands to FoW is fun.

BEB your Tarmogoyf? How hot is that.

Bovinious

04-20-2008, 09:55 PM

BEB your Tarmogoyf? How hot is that.

Remove Golgari Grave-Troll to Ichorid? Yes please! :wink:

Pinder

04-20-2008, 11:15 PM

Big surprise, what I noticed is that this limited format is ruled by 7 mana creatures. Seriously, if you're playing sealed, just look for all your 7 mana dudes, and the play them all. They'll win.

"Seven mana dudes" here means 'Windbrisk Raptor'. Holy shit that guy's nuts in limited. It puts you so far ahead it's not even funny.

conboy31

04-21-2008, 12:10 AM

The one card that is intruiging to me, like Swans of Bryn Argoll was to many others, is Painter's Servant. I went ahead and bought a playset for 5.5 not because I think they will go up but because it can fundamentally change interactions. I am interested if it can be squeezed in a deck where it provides a definite advantage without including 6 playsets of jank.

Also, is there any chance we could get a legacy top ten opinion list on shadowmoor going?

memnarch

04-21-2008, 03:14 AM

Now that the full spoiler is out I would like to post my favorites. Not nessisarily for legacy but with older cards in mind and new power levels. roughly in order from best to worst. Not that anyone prob cares about my opinion.

Dusk Urchins: well this guy isn't quite as good in legacy due to STP. But does exactly what you need to do lay down early threats, and fill your hand when you’re running out of gas.
a 4/3 aint bad for 3 either.

Ashenmoor Gouger: prob higher then on anyone else’s list but this is solid. 4 is the magic number out of bolt range.

Vexing Shusher: ehh I just threw down on a MUC deck and now wizardz reeallly wants to kill blue, thanks guys.

Demigod of Revenge

Fulminator Mage

Smash to Smithereens: Lava Spike and Shatter together for 2cc. yes please.

Sygg, River Cutthroat

Savor the Moment: I can't see why taking an extra turn can be a bad thing.

Flame Javelin: wow. Best burn spell to come out in a while to bad its triple color cc.

Swans of Bryn Argoll: It does have a drawback. I have to play with this before I can truly judge it.

Kitchen Finks: this reminds me of Hierarch. Not to shabby.

Less so:

Wilt-Leaf Liege: I actually like this guy more then Hierarch.

Prison Term

Augury Adept: there are probably better options but still cool.

Godhead of Awe + Night of Souls' Betrayal

Prismatic Omen: good against blood moon perhaps

Runed Halo: combo stoper.

Puresight Merrow: may be feasible in a fish style deck, maybe

Spectral Procession: that’s not a bad deal

Wheel of Sun and Moon: sideboard for dredge

Consign to Dream: well it’s worth a test in my MUC.

and worst card by far goes to

Deepchannel Mentor: WTF? 6cc for a 2/2. Wizardz you just printed a 6/7 for 2cc. does that make sense? No it doesn't.

rleader

04-21-2008, 03:27 AM

Does River Kelpie actually interact with anything in block?

I can't figure it out. They even included in a theme deck. Yeah, it makes Think Twice pretty nice, but I'm not sure why it's even in Shadowmoor.

Elfrago

04-21-2008, 03:34 AM

Dusk Urchins: well this guy isn't quite as good in legacy due to STP. But does exactly what you need to do lay down early threats, and fill your hand when you’re running out of gas.
a 4/3 aint bad for 3 either.

On the first attack it becomes a 3/2. So, it's actually a 3/2 for 3 mana. Not that hot.

And Painter Servant + Mana Maze = The Lock?

rufus

04-21-2008, 09:11 AM

Does River Kelpie actually interact with anything in block?

Everything with persist (including itself).

And Painter Servant + Mana Maze = The Lock?

Not quite - it still only allows one spell per turn so you'd need something like Whitemane Lion to make it stick.

technogeek5000

04-21-2008, 09:13 AM

Cards im going to pick up:

Runed Halo
Wheel of sun and moon
Fulminator mage
Swans
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Smash to smithereens
Toil to Renown
Maybe the Tattermunge liege
Faerie Macabre
Cursecatcher

telcontar

04-21-2008, 01:47 PM

Mental

04-21-2008, 01:50 PM

I've heard Runed Halo mentioned as an anti-combo card, probably SB material at best. I must be missing something, because I can't see how this wouldn't be strongly considered for 4-of MD in any non-combo deck with access to WW.

Most decks with access to W play swords to plowshares, typically 4 of. Clearly Runed Halo is no plow, but i don't see how dropping it naming Tarmagoyf is a weak play. Like Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo is a permanent so of course it can be removed, but enchantment removal may well be the least played form of removal in Legacy.

Heck, with 4 swords and 4 Runed Halo and maybe a couple of Oblivion Ring, you have a pretty tasty removal set which is quite flexible and certainly very powerful, all without splashing. That's as much removal as Threshold plays creatures!

The main weakness of Runed Halo that I can see is tokens from e.g. Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below. Oh, and it's WW, which is not realistic for most Tier 1 decks.

The reason Halo won't be maindecked in WW decks is because it's a very conditional card. It's good against Threshold, alright against Goblins, alright against Combo. The trend I'm getting at is it's alright. The only match I would really want it in is the Thresh MU, and even then they bring in Grip for that and your ORings so I wouldn't count on it sticking around. Besides, Goyf can still be a wall with Halo in play.

Pinder

04-21-2008, 02:00 PM

And Painter Servant + Mana Maze = The Lock?

More like Painter's Servant + Mana Maze = Arcane Laboratory. They still get to play one spell. Unless, of course, they pass priority during upkeep and you have some spell you can play at instant speed every turn. In which case, just run Scepter-Chant.

edit- I'll give it to you that it makes all of your spells uncounterable, though (at least by other spells).

Elfrago

04-21-2008, 02:21 PM

More like Painter's Servant + Mana Maze = Arcane Laboratory. They still get to play one spell. Unless, of course, they pass priority during upkeep and you have some spell you can play at instant speed every turn. In which case, just run Scepter-Chant.

edit- I'll give it to you that it makes all of your spells uncounterable, though (at least by other spells).

Damn, I didnt notice "This turn" on mana maze.:mad:
Add a cheap buyback spell then :tongue:

Illissius

04-21-2008, 02:29 PM

The reason Halo won't be maindecked in WW decks is because it's a very conditional card. It's good against Threshold, alright against Goblins, alright against Combo. The trend I'm getting at is it's alright. The only match I would really want it in is the Thresh MU, and even then they bring in Grip for that and your ORings so I wouldn't count on it sticking around. Besides, Goyf can still be a wall with Halo in play.

It's useful everywhere, therefore, it's conditional? That word doesn't mean what you think it means -- it means the exact opposite.

A conditional card is Swords to Plowshares, which does jack shit against most forms of combo and not very much against control, but is awesome against aggro. A very weak and unpopular card, as you'll note. (But then so is Force of Will, which is about as universally useful as Swords to Plowshares isn't, so the whole argument is pretty inconsequential.)

Mental

04-21-2008, 02:35 PM

It's useful everywhere, therefore, it's conditional? That word doesn't mean what you think it means -- it means the exact opposite.

A conditional card is Swords to Plowshares, which does jack shit against most forms of combo and not very much against control, but is awesome against aggro. A very weak and unpopular card, as you'll note. (But then so is Force of Will, which is about as universally useful as Swords to Plowshares isn't, so the whole argument is pretty inconsequential.)

It's much easier to answer than swords, it doesn't do much against Goblins, and it does a little against Combo. Better? Also, it doesn't even stop Goyf, if that's what you're going to name. Goyf can just be a wall until they draw KGrip or kill you with Geese.

Illissius

04-21-2008, 03:05 PM

Mental

04-21-2008, 03:07 PM

I don't think Landstill or Enchantress or whatever will much care if the other player can block with their Tarmogoyfs. They'll draw an hillion cards and win in the air, or however the hell they want. Grip is a problem, but people still play Moat and Humility and Counterbalance and Shackles and all the rest.

I mean, sure, you're not going to play the card in White Weenie (which is only partially because you're not going to play White Weenie) or Threshold, but it's a good fit for control decks of various sorts.

Yeah, I will probably test this in the UW landstill sideboard. I guess it's not bad. The question will ultimately be if this can beat out Meddling Mage. Both cards do similar things, but this is more reactive - you can lay it down after they play Goyf, and Mage is very proactive - and more vulnerable, but it does hit more.

rufus

04-21-2008, 03:58 PM

It's much easier to answer than swords, it doesn't do much against Goblins, and it does a little against Combo. Better? Also, it doesn't even stop Goyf, if that's what you're going to name. Goyf can just be a wall until they draw KGrip or kill you with Geese.

Against Goblins it can neutralize Piledriver, and Lackey and make Seige-Gang Commander less dangerous. It can't protect against bridge or goblin tokens, but can hinder Tendrils, Brain Freeze, and Belcher.

Mental

04-21-2008, 04:02 PM

Against Goblins it can neutralize Piledriver, and Lackey and make Seige-Gang Commander less dangerous. It can't protect against bridge or goblin tokens, but can hinder Tendrils, Brain Freeze, and Belcher.

Protecting against one of those 3 against Goblins isn't going to help much. A little, yeah.

These days Tendrils runs at least 4 outs to a card like Halo, and one has Split Second. I wouldn't count on it sticking.

Jaynel

04-22-2008, 12:52 AM

I hate to be that guy, but does anyone have a good link for the Shadowmoor MWS patch?

diffy

04-22-2008, 12:20 PM

I hate to be that guy, but does anyone have a good link for the Shadowmoor MWS patch?

Here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=2681594) you go.

It is a little tricky though: the people on Salvation say that you have to download an other Theme (dead simple and described in that thread) in order for the cards to be recognized by MWS (it otherwise bugs on you and doesn't recognize the deck). However, I have just re-set my theme to the default one and it still works which is somewhat random. Another problem is that the opponent won't see the new Hybrid mana symbols (they aren't implemented into the regular MWS) and instead sees the keys for it (e.g.: D instead of {U/W}) which can create some nasty situations. I'd recommend to keep a makro (just click on the box with the [...] while in a game) with a link to the Spoiler ready to fix the people that don't know the new cards up.

Nihil Credo

04-22-2008, 03:18 PM

I'll probably keep plugging this until the day I die, but GoblinHero has just released (http://www.slightlymagic.net/base.shtml) his Shadowmoor MasterBase and theme. Get those and it will work OK, hybrid symbols and all.

iOWN

04-22-2008, 05:29 PM

This is probably a terrible idea, but could Painter's Servant have a place as a 1-of in a Tog shell? If you name blue, any card pitches to Force, and Nightscape Familiar (let's assume that this is Burning Tog) turns into a one-sided Helm of Awakening. The wishboard could include cards like Wash Out, which is a 4cc Upheaval with Servant out.

dahcmai

04-22-2008, 06:02 PM

Heh, that's almost a combo right there.

Turn to Mist some random thing (who cares what it is). Make everything blue with servant, then Wash out Blue. Back it up with Force. Really janky, but if someone comes along that actually can use that stuff, it might be worth looking into again.

quicksilver

04-23-2008, 01:49 PM

Also I don't think I saw anyone mention this combo:

Survival of the fittest + Demigod of revenge.

Essentially once survival is out, chain tutor for demigods ending up with 3 in your yard and one in your hand. Then you play the one in your hand for 20 flying hasted power.

Essentially this will be very similar to a full english breakfast or welder survival kill, but theoretically the cards are all better on their own. After all demigod is a 5/4 flying haste for 5 mana, and it gets stronger the more you cast (assuming the first ones are no longer in play).

So I'm thinking maybe some sort of agro survival with a combo kill? Or maybe jsut have some sort of r/g/b control shell with a combo kill or jsut 5/4 flier for the kill.

I think this combo might actually be good since all the cards in it are very good on their own. The only problem I see is that survival is so green instensive and demigod so red/black intensive. You'd have to run a mana base of mostly bayous and taigs. Probably birds of paradise too.