Shadowmoor Info

[Wallace]

Shadowmoor is looking like a sweet set, from the looks of it, it will be Dark Lorwyn. I hope all of this art shows up, it is all really good. Please post any more info you come across.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/11.jpg http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/10.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/9.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/8.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/7.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/6.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/5.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/3.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/4.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/1.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/2.jpg

[Wallace]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/12.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/13.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/17.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/16.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/15.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/14.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/21.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/20.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/19.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/18.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/25.jpg

[Jaynel]

The third picture down in the 2nd post looks a LOT like Wort.

[Wallace]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/24.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/23.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/22.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/26.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/27.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/28.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/29.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/33.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/34.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/31.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/30.jpg

[Wallace]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/32.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/35.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/36.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/37.jpg

[Nihil Credo]

http://xs225.xs.to/xs225/08104/1200515744438227.png

[nitewolf9]

This artwork is completely sick. Some of the best I've seen for MTG.

[legacyplayer0]

I can't wait to reanimate whatever that octopus thing is.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Looks quite cool. Definitely like it better than Lorwyn or Morningtide's art. :smile:

[Nightmare]

I can't wait to reanimate whatever that octopus thing is.

POLAR KRAKEN II

I hope this set isn't something as lame as Torment + Lorwyn. Lorwent?

[whienot]

The art is looking pretty awesome. Though, some definitely look like the Garbage Pail Kids have all grown up.

[TrialByFire]

3rd pic down in the first post looks like such a bad ass Flamekin. Can't wait to see what it is.

[Nihil Credo]

3rd pic down in the first post looks like such a bad ass Flamekin. Can't wait to see what it is.
By MTG creative conventions, it should be a black creature with flying that makes the opponent discard on dealing damage.

[Wallace]

By MTG creative conventions, it should be a black creature with flying that makes the opponent discard on dealing damage.

I was thinking more along the lines of a legendary B/R Flamkin, your idea sounds better though. Hopfully its better than Blazing Specter...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/19.jpg

This is my fav. out of all of them, I hope the card is as good as the art...

[munkie]

The third picture down in the 2nd post looks a LOT like Wort.
My guess is that it will be Grub, Boggart Auntie. They quote (her/him/she/he/it... oh, I don't know. It's a Pat situation.) in Lorwyn a bit.

[Jaiminho]

My guess is that it will be Grub, Boggart Auntie. They quote (her/him/she/he/it... oh, I don't know. It's a Pat situation.) in Lorwyn a bit.

Auntie Flint is also mentioned on flavor texts, but only two times. Grub is mentioned way more.

That octopus thing reminds me a lot of Cloudthresher.

BTW, Kev Walker owns all.

[mercenarybdu]

Dragons and Zombies nice. Unless they plan to enhance the Specter creature type which should be a even bigger grab with random discard on most of those cards.

[Solpugid]

Those two dark flamekin in the first post look AWESOME. And that bat thing coming out of the swamp...

[Pinder]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/37.jpg

I want a bunny-deer-horse-giraff-alope too!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Wow.

That's awesome. It's even better the second scroll though.

EDIT: This is at the original, not so much Pinder's.

[idraleo]

all artworks is amazing!!!

the octopus one remembers Cloudtresher yet?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This is just some speculation but;

Transfigure (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/84.html) will be in this set/eventide.

#8 will have an upkeep trigger, be it damage or a cost.

#20 will be a big sorcery.

[Nihil Credo]

If only Transfigure was playable at instant speed... as it is, they'll need to put it on very good bodies to make the mechanic any good.

[Dilettante]

Okay... I'm really oddly interested in that... scarecrow-like construct being led by the purple doll on a stick. Now I know how it feels to be a Vizzerdrix collector.

[Wallace]

Okay... I'm really oddly interested in that... scarecrow-like construct being led by the purple doll on a stick. Now I know how it feels to be a Vizzerdrix collector.

There are 3 of the "Scarecrow" looking things in those pics. I wonder what roll they will play in the game/storyline?

Here are some interesting things pointed out by a member of MTG Salvation:
That pics 8, 21, 24, and 26 look like they may come from:

8: a dragon... from spinerock knoll (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139514)?
21: a giant with rocky fists and trees on the back. Maybe mosswort bridge (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139515)?
24: a huge horror-like creature... howltooth hollow (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139513)?
26: a giant land nautilus! shelldock island (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=146178)?

[APL]

the art is amazing!

I like it how the kithkin/merfolk/giants all look corrupted etc but the art with all the elves look like they are all innocent/trying to escape the corruption

I dont usually follow any stories but I might just read this block

Also loved what looks like a goblin inside some kind of fish disguise?

[Bovinious]

At least this doesnt appear to be the plane Tarmogoyf is from, God knows the metagoyf doesnt need another of him :wink:

[Wallace]

At least this doesnt appear to be the plane Tarmogoyf is from, God knows the metagoyf doesnt need another of him :wink:

Well it took 27 posts but Tarmogoyf has finally showed up in this thread too...he's everywhere...

[insertnamehere]

This is some of the freakiest artwork I have seen in a long time. Hope the cards are as good as the artwork.

[from Cairo]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/12.jpg


^^ is badass looking hopefully the abilities on these cards are as hawt as the art, if so this could be the best expansion in a long time.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

^^ is badass looking hopefully the abilities on these cards are as hawt as the art, if so this could be the best expansion in a long time.I'm guessing it will be a 1/2 with at least two abilities, one of which taps as a cost.

[Barook]

Amazing art is amazing! :eek:

This one

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/2.jpg

and the cloud thing of Sacearuse are my favorites.

The downside? The set is going to suck. Seriously, how many epic artworks has Wizards ruined so far by tacking them onto awful cards? How many good cards are an eyesore due to fugly, old man and Tarmogoyf?

And the failure that is Transfigure is going to be mechanic in Shadowmoor? God help us!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

If Transfigure comes on a creature with a CC of one, then you could use it as a Dreadnought tutor, which would be cool.

Much as I wish Transfigure could be played at instant speed, we all know how broken it would be if that were the case.


Good call on Transfigure, by the way. Seems like a likely candidate.

[Aggro_zombies]

There are 3 of the "Scarecrow" looking things in those pics. I wonder what roll they will play in the game/storyline?

They could be "dark" treefolk. I thought at first they might be elementals, but there seem to be an awful lot of them, and they all have the same basic structure and such. Elementals tended to be pretty unique in Lorwyn.

Here's hoping there's some good faeries or treefolk. Also, the new merrow look BAD ASS.

EDIT: Especially this one:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/36.jpg

[romain7]

The seventh pic down on the third post looks like slimer, from ghostbusters, on steroids.

[raharu]

Amazing art is amazing! :eek:

This one

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/2.jpg

and the cloud thing of Sacearuse are my favorites.

The downside? The set is going to suck. Seriously, how many epic artworks has Wizards ruined so far by tacking them onto awful cards? How many good cards are an eyesore due to fugly, old man and Tarmogoyf?

This is the shit. I believe, with all my heart, that this is going to be the new bw Tarmogoyf. This in the beastie that will put every deck I have in the works over the top [/unrealistic hopes and dreams...]

But seriously, I'm going to play fucking pack draft like a mo-fo until this rotates out. You don't even have a vague inkling :] It's game time. This is the first set I am genuinely fucking stoaked for. That, and I'm in Texas and It's snowing!!!!

EDIT: now to say something relevant, outside of !!!!111one!!!!!. Is it just me, or does 90% of the artwork that we have seen for new cards look black, or at least partly black? If the entire set looks like this, I think we may have a 60-70 percent black set... I'll be happy if this entierly unrealistic conclusion is true.

[Pinder]

If Transfigure comes on a creature with a CC of one, then you could use it as a Dreadnought tutor, which would be cool.


Except that Transfigure, like Transmute, always costs 3. So it's awful. The best thing I could see is Transfigure on a decent 2-drop so you can tutor for Goyf directly into play on your third turn (or later, I suppose), with a creature already in the yard for pumping him.

But still.

And yeah, making it instant would make it more broken, but I'd rather have a really good ability on a few cards than an incredibly awful one on a lot of cards.

[raharu]

Except that Transfigure, like Transmute, always costs 3. So it's awful. The best thing I could see is Transfigure on a decent 2-drop so you can tutor for Goyf directly into play on your third turn (or later, I suppose), with a creature already in the yard for pumping him.

But still.

And yeah, making it instant would make it more broken, but I'd rather have a really good ability on a few cards than an incredibly awful one on a lot of cards.
Or no more fucking keywords, perhaps???

[AngryTroll]

You know what this means, though, right? More Merfolk.

YES.

[Nihil Credo]

Now that I think of it: why would Transfigure be in Shadowmoor? The only way it can have decent synergy with Evoke would be by putting Evoke and Transfigure on the same card, which just can't happen outside of rares because it would take up too much text. Considering that most Evoke creatures have bumped-up CMCs because of the Evoke option, there's actually a negative synergy between the two.

[hi-val]

Thoughts: Halfway between badass and computer-generated crap. The color palettes on some of them are all wrong. On many of them, they're two-tonal at the core. I'd like to see some interesting color combinations as well as triplets of colors instead of just pairs. They seem to be trafficking on a lot of Cezanne color field stuff. (http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art105/img/matisse_redroom.jpg)

This one, for example, (http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/30.jpg) annoys me. Beyond that it's elf-in-bikini, we've just got bolts of green crap coming out of the ground. It opts for high-contrast, simple things with the same monotone, night-vision look to it.

This one, by contrast, (http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/36.jpg) looks neat. We're given a sense of the form of these beings through shape and shadow and light, not by outright portraying them. They're in they're environment and they look spooky, like The Fallen. They're silent, quiet, cold and scary.

Some of the pieces have kind of a Mark Ryden tone to them. Familiarize yourself with his work, it's genuinely odd:

Numba One (http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g177/lagataaranya/RydenMark-Rose42-Retratosangriento.jpg)

Numba Twooo (http://erase-her.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/mark-ryden-1.jpg)


I'm really interested in what Rebecca Guay has made for this set. Spooky is a sense best done in watercolors, and I think she can really pull out despair (see robe of leeches).

[Jaiminho]

Now that I think of it: why would Transfigure be in Shadowmoor? The only way it can have decent synergy with Evoke would be by putting Evoke and Transfigure on the same card, which just can't happen outside of rares because it would take up too much text. Considering that most Evoke creatures have bumped-up CMCs because of the Evoke option, there's actually a negative synergy between the two.

Both on the same card? Why? Not like you can Evoke and Transfigure before it dies -- it's used only as a sorcery.

[Barook]

Evoke is not in the set. Wizards stated that there will be completely different mechanics in Shadowmoor because it will be a different block.

And Transfigure wouldn't be that bad if they don't pull of another Transmute and make every Transfigure cost 3 mana, no matter how high the CC of the creature is.

[Maveric78f]

Transmute was not that bad.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, Shadowmoor will have different mechanics, but it's supposed to play nice with Lorwyn block.

And I agree that Transmute was far from bad (heh :P). But Transfigure is weaker, in that it adds much less to a card's power level than Transmute does.

[insertnamehere]

Check this out.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/preview/shmpack
artwork with casting cost only.

[Nihil Credo]

Check out the mana cost on Beseech the Queen (the 'kid looking at cloud-person' thing). Hybrid is back, and better than ever!

[Shtriga]

the artwork looks seriously sick. I love it. no happy-happy-joy-joy lepercons, fairies (ok, some fairies looked pretty cool) and ponies like Lorwyn was

edit: demigod of revenge (the last one) has text on mouseover, unlike the others. somewhat interesting card

[Barook]

I dunno, the Demigod is kinda meh due its manacost, at least for Legacy.

And I'm excited about Beseech the Queen. Looks like it could be a cool something for :b::b::b:.

[Nightmare]

Sigh. This set is gonna be impossible to draft.

[Nihil Credo]

Five mana 5/4 flyer haste with another positive ability? Sign me up for two years of Standard play!

It might not be utterly unplayable in Legacy either. I have a more midrange-ish take on Red Death that should like this dude.

[Shtriga]

I have a more midrange-ish take on Red Death that should like this dude.

I'd love to see that, if you wouldn't mind sharing

[Bovinious]

Five mana 5/4 flyer haste with another positive ability? Sign me up for two years of Standard play!

It might not be utterly unplayable in Legacy either. I have a more midrange-ish take on Red Death that should like this dude.

This probably wouldnt be playable in any of the current metagoyfs, since Goyf is a 5/6 for 2...

If I see another post containing nothing but whining about goyf, I intend to see you banned. This is your final warning. ~ Nightmare

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I was thinking more of a Survival thing. Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge with a way to get the mana. Seething Survival?

[Shtriga]

best case scenario would probably be buried alive into 3 demigods, seething song into the 4th, swing and win. not the most resilient, reliable or fast of combos though

either that or survival in place of buried alive

my timmy side likes the card though. reminds me of 97' living death decks into 4 benthic behemoths ftw

[Nihil Credo]

I was thinking more of a Survival thing. Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge > Demigod of Revenge with a way to get the mana. Seething Survival?
http://xs225.xs.to/xs225/08105/12028343492372948.jpg


I'd love to see that, if you wouldn't mind sharing..

Disclaimer: currently, the deck is awful.

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
7 [UNH] Swamp
4 [PR] Badlands
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Threats
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [CHK] Horobi, Death's Wail
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

4 [PR] Lightning Bolt
1 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Disruption
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [u] Sinkhole
4 [PR] Hymn to Tourach (1)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

[Shtriga]

thanks. I had my own take on it but it was even more awful :P . it ran sedge slivers instead of Horobis and the moon effects were relegated to the SB, and ran 4 terminates main. I had discarded it already


edit: there's already some heavy discussion regarding demigod of revenge in the mtg website forums. if anything, it will be a great card in constructed formats. as for legacy, I'm not so sure

[Xurcks]

It would've been so nice if Demigod of Revenge ability triggered not when played,but when it came into play.
Something along the lines of Turn 1 dark ritual into buried alive,picking 3 of it/Turn 2 reanimate,3 critters in your side and 15 minus life on their side
Good times with old reanimator ^^

[insertnamehere]

Turn 1 play a swamp, lotus petal: tap swamp play dark ritual and buried alive and search for 3 Demigod of revenge sac petal and play reanimate targeting demigod lose 5 life, bring back 2 demigods and swing for 15.....pass turn

[Nightmare]

Turn 1 play a swamp, lotus petal: tap swamp play dark ritual and buried alive and search for 3 Demigod of revenge sac petal and play reanimate targeting demigod lose 5 life, bring back 2 demigods and swing for 15.....pass turnIf it worked that way. It doesn't. You have to actually play the spell. Good thing is, it triggers whether you resolve it or not.

[TrialByFire]

Turn 1 play a swamp, lotus petal: tap swamp play dark ritual and buried alive and search for 3 Demigod of revenge sac petal and play reanimate targeting demigod lose 5 life, bring back 2 demigods and swing for 15.....pass turn

Except you have to PLAY Demigod, to get the others back, not Reanimate it.

[etrigan]

Except that Transfigure, like Transmute, always costs 3.

We've only seen one Transfigure card so far. There's nothing that says it always costs 3. It could just cost Casting Cost - 1. (Unless there's a Wizards article that I missed.)

[Barook]

It would've been so nice if Demigod of Revenge ability triggered not when played,but when it came into play.
But in that case, it would be abused like hell, something Wizards wanted to prevent as it seems.

However, countering the Demigod doesn't prevent his revival ability which is definitely an upside.

[Arsenal]

This guy will fit nicely into my casual BR Machine-Head deck (Specter-Void deck from Standard 2001 days).

[Nightmare]

I know, let's all spend six posts saying all the same damn stuff.

[DragoFireheart]

Very excellent artwork. I love the dark theme for many of these cards.

Was that octopus thing a Cloudthreshers evil twin?

[Cire]

how about end of opponent's turn intuition into 3 demigods and then play a demigod for 15 attack power? and if it gets countered you still have 10 attack power out.

[Phantom]

how about end of opponent's turn intuition into 3 demigods and then play a demigod for 15 attack power? and if it gets countered you still have 10 attack power out.

Decks that run intuituion generally can't get a hold of 5 red or black mana. I do like the way he works with the Dredge mechanic of say Stinkweed Imp. Volrath's Stonghold is good times with this guy too.

Oddly enough, the one deck that can cast him fairly easily is dragon Stompy thanks to Seething Song and or Moon effects (I've hardcasted Slogger w/ 5 red plenty of times). Sadly, DS has little to no way to abuse his graveyard feature.

[Nightmare]

Decks that run intuituion generally can't get a hold of 5 red or black mana. I do like the way he works with the Dredge mechanic of say Stinkweed Imp. Volrath's Stonghold is good times with this guy too.

Oddly enough, the one deck that can cast him fairly easily is dragon Stompy thanks to Seething Song and or Moon effects (I've hardcasted Slogger w/ 5 red plenty of times). Sadly, DS has little to no way to abuse his graveyard feature.Wait, we couldn't just throw some Volcanics in a deck and run 4 of this guy? We'd have to develop a new deck concept to abuse it? Fuck it.

[Dilettante]

Decks that run intuituion generally can't get a hold of 5 red or black mana. I do like the way he works with the Dredge mechanic of say Stinkweed Imp. Volrath's Stonghold is good times with this guy too.

Oddly enough, the one deck that can cast him fairly easily is dragon Stompy thanks to Seething Song and or Moon effects (I've hardcasted Slogger w/ 5 red plenty of times). Sadly, DS has little to no way to abuse his graveyard feature.


The obvious 'out' is seething song. The less obvious one is Burnt Offering...

[Phantom]

Wait, we couldn't just throw some Volcanics in a deck and run 4 of this guy? We'd have to develop a new deck concept to abuse it? Fuck it.

I'm sorry if I thought one of the cards suggested didn't have a lot of synergy with the spoiled card. I must have been giving up on the concept completely and not making a gentle observation. Fuck it!

[Nightmare]

I'm sorry if I thought one of the cards suggested didn't have a lot of synergy with the spoiled card. I must have been giving up on the concept completely and not making a gentle observation. Fuck it!Switch Volcanic to Trop in my statement, and recognize the sarcasm. It will make more sense.

Hint - TARMOGOYF

[Ewokslayer]

Oddly enough, the one deck that can cast him fairly easily is dragon Stompy thanks to Seething Song and or Moon effects (I've hardcasted Slogger w/ 5 red plenty of times). Sadly, DS has little to no way to abuse his graveyard feature.

Do you really need to abuse his graveyard feature for him to be good?
It is still a 5/4 for 5 mana which is kinda big.
If they kill/counter it the second one brings a friend without having to contort your deck for this "combo"

[Phantom]

Do you really need to abuse his graveyard feature for him to be good?
It is still a 5/4 for 5 mana which is kinda big.
If they kill/counter it the second one brings a friend without having to contort your deck for this "combo"

I think you have to abuse him for him to be worth it. I mean, a 6/6 flyer for 4 like enforecer isn't even run a ton, and Tombstalker is usually a cheaper alternative.

Red and black both have some quality accel though, so it might be interesting.

@ Nightmare: I thought you were saying I was being too dismissive. sorry if i misunderstood.

[Dilettante]

I think you have to abuse him for him to be worth it. I mean, a 6/6 flyer for 4 like enforecer isn't even run a ton, and Tombstalker is usually a cheaper alternative.

Red and black both have some quality accel though, so it might be interesting.

@ Nightmare: I thought you were saying I was being too dismissive. sorry if i misunderstood.

It all comes down to fundamental numbers in this format... People are pulling away from looking at toughness and going for 'yes'. With the current environment, people are looking more toward casting cost as a variable in stuffing a creature save the weenies... and bolt-ish effects are still a fixture. Barely anything goes for 4+. With the higher casting cost in this day and age comes benefits. It is that much harder to Deed away, especially when you are accelerating it early, like turn 2 with Seething Song or a hodgepodge using other mana sources. It is immune to Smother, though Swords and Shriekmaw still work... Almost no one runs FTKs anymore and only very few run Psionic Blasts/Chars. A single creature setting an evasive turn 5 clock is not bad at all. Mystic Enforcer and Tomb Stalker, while good... on their own tend to be a turn 7ish clock instead. Run some SoLS and you've got a monster.

[Shtriga]

This guy will fit nicely into my casual BR Machine-Head deck (Specter-Void deck from Standard 2001 days).

yea, I loved those decks . 2001 world champion used one of those and I had a list for the longest time

and Cire had a good idea with the intuition. running mainly blue would contribute with permission, cantrips, and then intuition into demigods, into seething song giving back 2 creatures (even if the one gets countered)

and Dilettante, the demigod, being half black, can't be maw'd. swords still works though

[Arsenal]

That deck is what got me into playing competitive Magic. I still have it, mostly untouched (nostalgic purposes).

But yeah, Intuition sounds good to abuse this guys ability. A 5/4 flying haster with flexible mana requirements sounds good to me. Throw a recursion ability that still helps you if it's countered, and I'm sold.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Is Beseech the Queen's converted mana cost 3, 4, 5, and 6? What would happen if you revealed it off a Confidant?

Amusing story; Earlier today one of my friends told me there was a card called "Demigod of Revenge" that costed what it does. Based off of that I speculated its abilities, and was only off by one toughness.

[Dilettante]

and Dilettante, the demigod, being half black, can't be maw'd. swords still works though

Oopsie. This is what happens when you've been playing Dragon Stompy too long. Mind is stuck on what kills your Slogger :)

[Pinder]

Is Beseech the Queen's converted mana cost 3, 4, 5, and 6? What would happen if you revealed it off a Confidant?


At first I thought it was B/W hybrid mana, but then I looked again. Holy shit. I'm sure there's going to be some sort of rules primer, but my stab at it:

I think that the CMC while you play it will be how much mana you paid for it. So if you went 2BB or something the CMC is 4, but 4B is 5, etc. I think that if you flip it it's just 3, but don't quote me on that.

Also, another interesting question is whether or not you can use black mana to pay for the colorless cost on Beseech the Queen? Like, pay BBBB to play it for 2BB to dodge Counterbalance or something. I figure you probably can, though. Here's hoping it's a good enough card to see play.

[ParkerLewis]

I think that the CMC while you play it will be how much mana you paid for it. So if you went 2BB or something the CMC is 4, but 4B is 5, etc. I think that if you flip it it's just 3, but don't quote me on that.

Also, another interesting question is whether or not you can use black mana to pay for the colorless cost on Beseech the Queen? Like, pay BBBB to play it for 2BB to dodge Counterbalance or something. I figure you probably can, though. Here's hoping it's a good enough card to see play.

On the paying issue : I don't see why you couldn't pay BBBB if you want to. A non-colored mana cost can be payed with any color of mana - I think that's how it is actually defined.

On the Dark Confidant and cc issue :

When it's on the stack, there should be no issue : just like the "X" works, the cc should be equal to what you paid for it. Now, when it's not on the stack, let's look at the different options :

- you choose between all possibilites. probably the most straightforward way to deal with that.

- there's a rule saying it's one particular combination (for example, "the least possible", like 3 here as in BBB, or "the most possible", like 6 as in 2+2+2). I don't believe in this possibility as it would feel very arbitrary (i don't see what justification there could be to any of the possible choices).

- it gives all answers. This is not that far-fetched as this is also how dual cards work : when you reveal a dual card off of Confidant, you pay both amounts of life. Only weird thing is, with this system, this card here would give answers 3, 4, 5 and 6 - meaning you'd lose 18 life by flipping it :D wow :D Probably a little too complicated because "multiple answers" are something quite weird that does really weird things to the game, and with more than two answers, it's really starting to get a little crazy. Pus, what we have here still is a unique spell, not "two spells at once" like the dual cards.

So basically, unless somebody has another better idea, i'd say they will just let you choose (going with option 1). It's simple, feels quite natural, and doesn't end up with weird things happening all other the place.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You know what this means, though, right? More Merfolk.

YES.

Sorry, Don. You're officially kicked off the team for this statement. :tongue:

[Pinder]

So basically, unless somebody has another better idea, i'd say they will just let you choose (going with option 1). It's simple, feels quite natural, and doesn't end up with weird things happening all other the place.

I think this is probably best idea, as it's the simplest and most elegant.

Plus, it just so happens to make Beseech the Queen the utter tits with Counterbalance. Having one card counter mana costs three through six? Dear God, I hope that's how it works.

[mujadaddy]

Plus, it just so happens to make Beseech the Queen the utter tits with Counterbalance. Having one card counter mana costs three through six? Dear God, I hope that's how it works.:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Nihil Credo]

They won't let you simply choose its CMC, that would be nigh impossible to work within the rules. CMC is a copiable value - it's always there. It would be an utter nightmare to allow a card's owner to define its CMC every time it's revealed from anywhere. 1996 World Champion looks tame by comparison.

It might work like X spells, meaning that it takes on a certain CMC on the stack and has a fixed one everywhere else; but I don't think that's likely. More likely, it'll either be fixed at 3, or it will count as 3,4,5,6 at the same time; in the latter case, I expect that they'll have taken steps to make it unplayable in Counterbalance decks, if nothing for the sake of Extended.

[scrumdogg]

or it will count as 3,4,5,6 at the same time; in the latter case, I expect that they'll have taken steps to make it unplayable in Counterbalance decks, if nothing for the sake of Extended.

QFT, although it should never see play in deck with Dark Confidant at that point :cool: 'Topdeck 18 to my face? That sucked....'

[Phantom]

I'm gonna take a guess and say that the CMC of this sucker is 3, and that they sort of look at the colorless mana as an alternate way to pay black.

[Eldariel]

I'll be it'll be like split-cards and return multiple CMCs if asked for one before being played.

[Corg]

I think that it will be treated like more like an {X} in the mana cost and less like a split card.

The flavor/conceit behind the whole "Fire//Ice has CMC of 2 and 2" thing is that it's two spells on one square of cardboard. Parker covered this option well, so I won't dwell on it.

Beseech the Queen has three mana symbols that ask "Hey, how much do you want to pay for me?" when you play it.* The only other mana symbol that asks that question in today's world is {X}.** So, I'll guess that {2/B} (and friends) would be treated like {X} - whatever you chose while it's on the stack, and a default when it's not. {X}'s default is 0; {2/B}'s would be 1.


*So does The Ultimate Nightmare of Wizards of the Coast® Customer Service!
** And {Y} and {Z} - just like The Ultimate Nightmare of Wizards of the Coast® Customer Service!

[technogeek5000]

A card i found while surfing the Interblag. It was on Gamingetc.com and i didnt see any confirmation so im not entirely sure if its reliable.

The Reaper King
BGW
Legendary Creature - Treefolk Zombie
Other Zombie creatures get +1/+1.
Harvest (Remove a creature card from your graveyard from the game: ~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
2/2

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I hope that's false, that's a lame key word.

Plus, it seems too small for a treefolk.

EDIT: And it has a graveyard and tribal ability. Weren't both of those confirmed not in Shadowmoor?

[thefreakaccident]

OMG!!!! Tarmogoyf is coming back!!!

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=136142

Just look at it!

I hope the next one is white, cuz that would be bomb! (wouldn't be as broken, but still broken).

[Shtriga]

eh? if that's a bad joke, I didn't get it :P

[xsockmonkeyx]

OMG!!!! Tarmogoyf is coming back!!!

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=136142

Just look at it!

I hope the next one is white, cuz that would be bomb! (wouldn't be as broken, but still broken).

0/10. Better luck next time.

[thefreakaccident]

No need to be a total douche...

I said that, because a lot of the cards with that little claw symbol (the one in the upper left hand corner) seem to be being remade... It could just be me...

How far is whittier from SD??

[Nihil Credo]

I said that, because a lot of the cards with that little claw symbol (the one in the upper left hand corner) seem to be being remade... It could just be me...
It could just be that the claw symbol marks creatures in Future Sight frames.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It could just be that the claw symbol marks creatures in Future Sight frames.Indeed. There was an article about it (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/1490).

[Shion]

A card i found while surfing the Interblag. It was on Gamingetc.com and i didnt see any confirmation so im not entirely sure if its reliable.

The Reaper King
BGW
Legendary Creature - Treefolk Zombie
Other Zombie creatures get +1/+1.
Harvest (Remove a creature card from your graveyard from the game: ~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
2/2

Thats a Confirmed Fake. Some guy at MTGS made it up in the speculation forums and that site picked it up and posted it as a real spoiler.

The only confirmed card we have atm is the one WOTC showed us.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/SHM_booster_15_revealed.jpg
[Edit] yes, I know everyones likely already seen the card. Just posting for reference or anyone that doesn't keep up with the Rumor Mill.

[Arsenal]

I missed out on hybrid cards; are you able to mix n' match the mana cost? Like, can I pay any combination of Red and/or Black mana to cast that creature?

[Shion]

Yes, Each one of its 5 mana cost can be paid with either Red or Black. It's also considered both a red and black card.

[Jak]

I missed out on hybrid cards; are you able to mix n' match the mana cost? Like, can I pay any combination of Red and/or Black mana to cast that creature?

Yes.

I have no idea if the Demigod will see play. It has an interesting ability, but it is a little small for reanimator unless they run Buried Alive and it is on the expensive side with a non splashable mana cost. Seems neat though. If you have one in hand and a survival in play, :g: :g: :g: :b: :b: :b: :b: :b: wins you the game if there are no blockers. Can you say awesome!

[Wynk]

Wow. This artwork has some serious Lovecraft vibes going for it. That kraken on page 1 looks like a mini Cthulhu. Does anyone here know what I'm talking about?

[Shtriga]

yeh, when cloverfield was on the making, there was all sorts of speculation about how the monster would look like in Unfiction forums, and Cthulhu was one of the first that some people strongly believed would be the monster

demigod has in my opinion a good chance to be an extended bomb, with access to buried alive and seething song. the power level seems on par with Ideal decks. might not be enough for legacy (even if intuition and blue cards would make it a little better) but who knows

[enemyofarsenic]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/previewbooster/SHM_booster_2.jpg

Either this one is for Aggro Loam although it has a very high casting cost or for Reanimator...

I hope it has a very kickass ability ahehehe...

[Shtriga]

I bet it's just a junk common :P . typically, commons that cost that much are never very good (krosan tusker being the only one I can remember atm that saw play)

[enemyofarsenic]

We'll see =]

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Wow. This artwork has some serious Lovecraft vibes going for it. That kraken on page 1 looks like a mini Cthulhu. Does anyone here know what I'm talking about?

Wtf are you talking about^^:eek:

[scrumdogg]

Yes.

I have no idea if the Demigod will see play. It has an interesting ability, but it is a little small for reanimator unless they run Buried Alive and it is on the expensive side with a non splashable mana cost. Seems neat though. If you have one in hand and a survival in play, :g: :g: :g: :b: x5 wins you the game if there are no blockers. Can you say awesome!


Or :g::g::g::r::2: with a Seething Song, which is much more attainable if you're running Anger & Rofellos. Heck that's fairly early with Rofellos...now what other ways can be fit into a SotF model to take advantage of Seething Song? Other than red Akroma...and Masticore...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I suppose Tinder Wall and Orcish Lumberjack could power them out early as well.

[etrigan]

Something like Initiates of the Ebon Hand or Orochi Leafcaller could be use to filter mana from Rofellos.

[Aggro_zombies]

Something like Initiates of the Ebon Hand or Orochi Leafcaller could be use to filter mana from Rofellos.
As could Bog Initiate / Nomadic Elf.

[Krikkit]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/31.jpg

This cards art is much larger from a vertical perspective compared to the other arts, and smaller horizontally. Hopefully this heralds the return of planeswalkers back into magic, as the planeswalkers we have seen have art that take up the whole card.

And from the look of the 'pack' wizards gave us, Muraganda Petroglyphs is looking really good right now, none of those creatures have any abilities! =\

[hi-val]

I think the best combo with Demigod is just Demigod + mana. I mean srsly, do you need to combo this thing up with other stuff to make it shine? It's like making a Kokusho-Living Death deck that dramatically overshoots what it needs to do, since Koko usually just wins games by itself. Think of the card this way:

I am a ball lightning that sticks around for only two more mana.

If I resolve, I hit immediately and I have evasion.

If I don't resolve, I'll come out when my brother resolves.

Any time the card sticks is going to be painful. I seriously don't think you need to enable it with anything else, just do the "can you answer this? No? You lose." plan.

[Solpugid]

@ Krikkit

Didn't I hear somewhere that Oona is a flower? Maybe that's Oona. However, I don't think that necessarily means she's a planeswalker, as a lot of art is made these days with improper proportions for regular frames(especially Fischer's stuff).

[PhanTom_lt]

If I resolve, I hit immediately and I have evasion.

If I don't resolve, I'll come out when my brother resolves.




Actually, it's more along the lines of: If I don't resolve or you kill me, later when my brother shows up, regardless what you do to him, i'll kick your butt. Hard. And then again.

[Illissius]

Correction: "If I don't resolve, I'll come out when my brother gets played." (beaten)

I think Intuition and Fact or Fiction show the most promise in conjunction with him, that I can think of. And note that he's hybrid, not multicolored. You can put him in a B/R deck, but thanks to duals, you can also put him in a 5-color black deck, or R/x, or whatever.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@ Krikkit

Didn't I hear somewhere that Oona is a flower? Maybe that's Oona. However, I don't think that necessarily means she's a planeswalker, as a lot of art is made these days with improper proportions for regular frames(especially Fischer's stuff).

Looks more like a sea cucumber.

[Tacosnape]

Yes.

I have no idea if the Demigod will see play. It has an interesting ability, but it is a little small for reanimator unless they run Buried Alive and it is on the expensive side with a non splashable mana cost. Seems neat though. If you have one in hand and a survival in play, GGGBBBBB wins you the game if there are no blockers. Can you say awesome!

This is lame. :g::g::g::b::3: wins the game with Crypt Champion/Saffi/Caller of the Claw/Anger, and it's a shitload easier to cast.

Oh, and, if nobody learned their lesson from Full English Breakfast, Survival combos are bad because they get shut down by everything ever.

I think Hi-Val is right. The best combo for Demigod is Demigod + Mana.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think the best combo for Demigod is Intuition plus Demigod. That's just me, though...U/B decklist of course...Red splash possible, but not necessary. Fire/Ice would probably be used.

[Jak]

This is lame. :g::g::g::b::3: wins the game with Crypt Champion/Saffi/Caller of the Claw/Anger, and it's a shitload easier to cast.

Oh, and, if nobody learned their lesson from Full English Breakfast, Survival combos are bad because they get shut down by everything ever.

I think Hi-Val is right. The best combo for Demigod is Demigod + Mana.

No one got the sarcasm. I was obviously kidding.

His casting cost is very limiting, so it is hard to say if he'll see play.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Good thing is, it triggers whether you resolve it or not.

So...that's freakin' sweet. It doesn't hit the yard in time to put itself into play, right? That would be rediculous...Clearly I'm aware that it doesn't work that way, I just want to know how the stack plays with say, playing a Demigod that gets forced with 2 D-Gods in the yard. I'm building Avatar Stompy. It will happen. UBr or BRu. I can't freakin' wait. I tried out Avatar of Discord in a GRb Madness build, and got disappointed. I hope it doesn't turn out that way again...Although the 2 have a smidgen of synergy....but not enough to warrant using Discord. Damn.

[Barook]

It doesn't hit the yard in time to put itself into play, right? That would be rediculous...
It would only work if your opponent is stupid enough and counters it before resolving the trigger. Stupid stack orders...

[hi-val]

I mean if you REALLY wanted a combo, you could run Wild Mongrel to discard one if you have two in your hand so you hit for ten. That said, the guy probably isn't strong enough to play in Legacy without a combo, and the combos that involve him are too clunky. In other formats though, I'd imagine that just running him with no enablers is still pretty sick.

[enemyofarsenic]

I mean if you REALLY wanted a combo, you could run Wild Mongrel to discard one if you have two in your hand so you hit for ten. That said, the guy probably isn't strong enough to play in Legacy without a combo, and the combos that involve him are too clunky. In other formats though, I'd imagine that just running him with no enablers is still pretty sick.

You can also use putrid imp or oona's prowler...

[Pinder]

You can also use putrid imp or oona's prowler...

Still though, I think that him just being a 5/4 flying haste for 5 mana is damn sexy in and of itself. You don't really need to run crappy cards to make it better. Especially when he's in the two most efficient ritual colors in the game.

[Jak]

Still though, I think that him just being a 5/4 flying haste for 5 mana is damn sexy in and of itself. You don't really need to run crappy cards to make it better. Especially when he's in the two most efficient ritual colors in the game.

For Truth! He will probably see play along side Tombstalker in Black Aggro.

[Wallace]

@ Krikkit

Didn't I hear somewhere that Oona is a flower? Maybe that's Oona. However, I don't think that necessarily means she's a planeswalker, as a lot of art is made these days with improper proportions for regular frames(especially Fischer's stuff).

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/previewbooster/SHM_booster_12.jpg

The Figure in the clouds is Oona, I really hope they print her, but I don't think the flower looking thing is the Queen. I think it does look like it may be a Planeswalker, would be cool to get a couple more.

[Belgareth]

Oona has been hinted at being a walker so it's possibly her.
I hope that it is as the lorwyn batch were fairly good and new ones can't hurt.

[MattH]

If the hybrid cost is actually 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & everyone we know, then Erratic Explosion just got a lot better.

[Sek'Kuar]

I understand the fun in speculating what a spoiled card can do, but before anyone starts making ideas for decks, wouldn't it be better to wait for the rest of the set? something could be printed that makes Demigod amazing, or there could be something that completely shuts it down. I think it would just be best to see what else is printed. That being said, Carry on!

[Tacosnape]

Shadowmoor is starting to feel like a "Return to Oz" themed set.

[PhanTom_lt]

If the hybrid cost is actually 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & everyone we know, then Erratic Explosion just got a lot better.

I think the idea that Counterbalance would be hell of a lot better with that is much more outstanding. You might not even care for the effect as long as it is somewhat beneficial. The downside is not being able to run Bob.

[Willoe]

The downside is not being able to run Bob.

How much life do you lose when flipping Beseech the Queen over with Bob? I can't find the answer anywhere!

[Pinder]

How much life do you lose when flipping Beseech the Queen over with Bob? I can't find the answer anywhere!

What does Beseech the Queen do? I can't find the answer anywhere!

[Tosh]

Demigod of Revenge seems interesting... EOT Intuition for 3x then on your turn play one and swing for 15.

I'm glad they're bringing hybrid (sexy?) back.

[Illissius]

I don't think the best combo for Demigod is "just mana". 5/4 flying haste for five mana is pretty decent, but not amazing. You need to take advantage of his third ability somehow to make it a truly great card; and just by itself, it's not going to arrive in the graveyard very often unless you block with it -- there's not much which blocks and kills it, and most of the time, it'll be dealt with via Swords to Plowshares. (Well, and counterspells. Granted.)

At the same time, it's obvious that trying to explicitly build around and combo with it is not a good idea. I think Fact or Fiction is exactly the sort of incidental but powerful synergy we're looking for: Fact is a good card, Demigod is a good card, but together, they can occasionally be nuts. Intuition, too, if you also have other good uses for it. Or some sort of Loam deck with Genesis or Stronghold, or something. (It's too bad Stronghold makes colorless mana (even if Urborg does exist); returning effectively all of your Demigods every turn could get silly.)

[Pinder]

Spoiler's up. (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html)











Admit it, you looked.

[Belgareth]

How much life do you lose when flipping Beseech the Queen over with Bob? I can't find the answer anywhere!

There is not an official answer yet but I think it will be 6 but it could be 3 or anything in between up to 18.

[Shtriga]

Spoiler's up. (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html)
Admit it, you looked.

I thought I was going to get rick'rolled

[Arsenal]

Shadowmoor is starting to feel like a "Return to Oz" themed set.

Yes. Very dark, scary even. All we need are the Wheelies, and we're set.

Demigod looks nice. I have high hopes for this set.

[Zach Tartell]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/previewbooster/SHM_booster_12.jpg

The Figure in the clouds is Oona, I really hope they print her, but I don't think the flower looking thing is the Queen. I think it does look like it may be a Planeswalker, would be cool to get a couple more.

Uncommon Planeswalkers =/= likely.

[Pinder]

I think he was actually hoping that this art

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/31.jpg

Could possibly be the art for an Oona Planeswalker card.

[Wallace]

Uncommon Planeswalkers =/= likely.

I wasn't saying this was "the Queen", was just stating that the figure in the clouds was a pic of the queen. I know they wouldn't do an uncommon walker.


There is not an official answer yet but I think it will be 6 but it could be 3 or anything in between up to 18.

Or it could be just what it looks like, 2/:b: 2/:b: 2/:b: ....so..... I'm thinking its you can pay: :2::b::b: or :b::b::b: or :4::b: ... something like that... ya know, spend 2 colorless insted of a black, still having to spen at least 1 black mana for the spell...

[Zach Tartell]

My bad. That'd actually be pretty badass for a planeswalker. 'Specially if it's a black card. That does nasty stuff. Like... Hymn or something. and Terror.

The Hymn and Terror flower.

I'm a genius.

[ParkerLewis]

Or it could be just what it looks like, 2/:b: 2/:b: 2/:b: ....so..... I'm thinking its you can pay: :2::b::b: or :b::b::b: or :4::b: ... something like that... ya know, spend 2 colorless insted of a black, still having to spen at least 1 black mana for the spell...

That's not what the issue is about at all. The issue (and what he talked about) was basically : what happens if you reveal it thanks to Dark Confidant ?

[Bovinious]

Or it could be just what it looks like, 2/:b: 2/:b: 2/:b: ....so..... I'm thinking its you can pay: :2::b::b: or :b::b::b: or :4::b: ... something like that... ya know, spend 2 colorless insted of a black, still having to spen at least 1 black mana for the spell...

Why would you always need to pay a black? With that templating your should be able to play it for 6...I mean you dont always need to pay B for Avatar of Discord :/

[Dilettante]

For all we know, cards like Beseech the Queen might have in its Text Box a definition of its assessed casting cost, much like cards like Evermind (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=36651) and Hypergenesis (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=42513) declare its color in such.

[Wallace]

Why would you always need to pay a black? With that templating your should be able to play it for 6...I mean you dont always need to pay B for Avatar of Discord :/

Its just a guess, you may be right, i might be right, who knows until we see the text of the card or a primer...I would assume, for it to be a black spell, you would need to spend a :b: to play it.

[mujadaddy]

Its just a guess, you may be right, i might be right, who knows until we see the text of the card or a primer...I would assume, for it to be a black spell, you would need to spend a :b: to play it.

Not at all. The mana symbols say, "You're wrong."

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think it's a tutor. At two black black, it cost the same as Diabolic Tutor. All of the other costs seem to par with this. It probably has some other draw back such as life loss.
I would assume, for it to be a black spell, you would need to spend a :b: to play it.Avatar of Discord can be played with triple red.

[Pinder]

Not at all. The mana symbols say, "You're wrong."

Indeed. Even though you can pay all red mana for Avatar of Discord etc, it still counts as a black spell because there is black in the hybrid mana costs. From the rulebook:



103.4f. A hybrid mana symbol is each of its component colors.




203.2. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame.




203.2e An object with one or more hybrid mana symbols in its mana cost is each of the colors of that mana symbol, in addition to any other colors the object might be. Most cards with hybrid mana symbols in their mana costs are printed in a two-tone frame.


So in this case the spell is just black, because black is the only color in the hybrid mana symbols. But it's still black even if you pay 6 colorless mana for it (or even if you paid 6 nonblack colored mana for it).

[Wallace]

Not at all. The mana symbols say, "You're wrong."


I think it's a tutor. At two black black, it cost the same as Diabolic Tutor. All of the other costs seem to par with this. It probably has some other draw back such as life loss.Avatar of Discord can be played with triple red.

OK so maybe it can be played for :6:, I was just posting my OPINION on what I thought it would cost, sorry, I guess my OPINION was...wrong...:confused:

[mujadaddy]

OK so maybe it can be played for :6:, I was just posting my OPINION on what I thought it would cost, sorry, I guess my OPINION was...wrong...:confused:

No, you said it was an assumption, not an opinion. Unless you only assume you know your own opinions...? :laugh: :tongue:

[TheDrunkDwarf]

If it was designed so that at least B had to be spent, they wouldn't have put 3 (2/B) Hybrid Mana, they would put (2/B)(2/B)(B).

As for the converted mana cost issue, it would be simple enough to have a small italicized line at the top of the card like:

(This card's converted mana cost is 4.)

or something like that...

[xsockmonkeyx]

OK so maybe it can be played for :6:, I was just posting my OPINION on what I thought it would cost, sorry, I guess my OPINION was...wrong...:confused:

Bah. Not so much an opinion as a guess. Dont beat yourself up over it, the rules are complicated enough.

[someone_unimportant]

That's not what the issue is about at all. The issue (and what he talked about) was basically : what happens if you reveal it thanks to Dark Confidant ?

Maybe the split mana will mean "2 OR B", so it's 3x"2 OR B", which means you could take your choice of 6,5,4, or 3 damage. This would be sort of similar to how they do split cards, which have mana "X AND Y."

[Jaiminho]

And again the same guess... we could wait and see what is the hybrid's CMC, since we pretty much covered all guesses here without no official word.

[ParkerLewis]

Maybe the split mana will mean "2 OR B", so it's 3x"2 OR B", which means you could take your choice of 6,5,4, or 3 damage. This would be sort of similar to how they do split cards, which have mana "X AND Y."

yes, that's what we discussed a few pages ago, i was just reminding what the issue was since there seemed to be some confusion ;)

[dahcmai]

Well, considering any black deck gets to play Beseech the Queen for 3, I can't picture it being all that powerful. I hope it's something worthwhile, though I don't expect it since it's an uncommon.

[ParkerLewis]

Well, considering any black deck gets to play Beseech the Queen for 3, I can't picture it being all that powerful. I hope it's something worthwhile, though I don't expect it since it's an uncommon.

Any mono-black deck gets to play it on turn three. Otherwise, even you do end up paying only BBB, you'll have to wait a bit more to get those three blacks (unless you're not playing basics at all, that is. which is quite dangerous with the current number of relevant non-basic hate cards in the format).

[hi-val]

I'm gonna go on record as saying that I think Beseech will be an Ambition's Cost. Paying BBB for 3 cards and 3 life seems pretty fair (Contracts be damned!) and having to crank six mana and three life for three cards also seems fair.

[Afro]

Well, considering any black deck gets to play Beseech the Queen for 3, I can't picture it being all that powerful.

Necropotence much?

These discussions are dumb. Let us actually wait to see what the card does before we go as far as saying "i think this might be playable even though its an uncommon."

[bigbear102]

Or you can let people speculate, as this is the thread to do it in, and if you don't like it don't read the thread.

I don't think that Beseech the Queen will be Ambition's Cost, I think it will be some kind of draw spell that will change depending on how much mana or colored mana is paid for it.

[hi-val]

Or you can let people speculate, as this is the thread to do it in, and if you don't like it don't read the thread.

I don't think that Beseech the Queen will be Ambition's Cost, I think it will be some kind of draw spell that will change depending on how much mana or colored mana is paid for it.

That's an interesting concept.

I didn't want to derail it into a speculation thread about what cards do : ( Hybrid mana costs like that are really interesting to me since there's a lot of neat stuff that you can do. For example, what would a colorless Healing Salve or Lightning Bolt cost? Should all colors get something like Giant Growth? It'll make for really interesting limited games!

[Pinder]

#2 – The mana symbols on Beseech the Queen are half a 2 Mana and half a Black Mana. Yes, this is a new twist on hybrid. (And in other ways it isn't at all—but more on that during Beseech the Queen Week.) No, I'm not going to tell you how it works (although common sense should help). How does one figure out the converted mana cost of it and other cards like it (yes, there's more)? Don't worry, it's written on the card.

...Okay, okay, it's six. You can stop the email bombing now.


Awww. That means it sucks with Bob and Counterbalance.

[scrumdogg]

Thank gawd, as that stops the aggravating type of speculation, since most of the people throwing in their two cents have no clue how the process works anyway. Guessing what the card will actually do? That's a lot more harmless (and fun, as people get their Sherlock Holmes on...). Was there a Shadowmoor preview of some sort at the Grand Prixs? If so, can someone update those of us with weekend jobs that hate Extended? Thanks.

[Sek'Kuar]

I also found it interesting that Mark Rosewater also stated that the set was roughly 7/15 hybrid (all allied colors). Thats a lot of hybrid.

[Corg]

*Ahem*

Internet, I was wrong about the CMC of Beseech the Queen. Let us never speak of it again.

Now, let us all misbuild our manabases!

(Also, Shards of Alara?)

[Wallace]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/ImageSHA1.jpg[/URL]
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/ImageSHA2.jpg[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67722&stc=1&d=1205920439"] (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67721&stc=1&d=1205920439)
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/ImageSHA3.jpg

Some more card art from magictutor.com

Could that be a Contraption?

[Jaynel]

It looks more like a construct, similar to one seen in the third batch of images (on page 1).

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Could that be a Contraption?Although it's possible, it's unlikely. Shadowmoor will be hybrid based, and contains mostly coloured cards. This means that there would be little room for an ability that artifact heavy. I assume that contraptions will be in a steam punk set, if they ever appear.

[godryk]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5143/dieflynpj2.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dieflynpj2.jpg)

I've seen this in some spanish forums and didn't seen it here. Anyway it's just a crap common.

[Elficidium]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5143/dieflynpj2.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dieflynpj2.jpg)

I've seen this in some spanish forums and didn't seen it here. Anyway it's just a crap common.
I call Fake.
It's tribal and is of a creature type not yet seen in the set. It would have to be at least Elemental Spirit. No mention of it on Salvation also.

[Zach Tartell]

Aydunno, but there are some amazing "Español" Source cards there, if you care to break out your dictionary.

[Belgareth]

Actually that card was shown as fake a while back on MTGS , it's not even a good fake.

[Barook]

This forest of mine glows with an awesome powers!

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/SHM/Forest.jpg

[Wallace]

I call Fake.
It's tribal and is of a creature type not yet seen in the set. It would have to be at least Elemental Spirit. No mention of it on Salvation also.

Yeah, this was confirmed a fake a while back. I believe that Nightmare even deleted a post containing this card because it was fake.

[godryk]

Ok, I also thought it was a fake, just wanted to show and confirm.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Cool (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2299). That was my favorite one in the cycle.

[Bryant Cook]

I hope that Beseech the Queen, is a dumb card for black. I'd love another broken card for TES. Not another card that didn't make the cut, coughSlithermusecough...

[Nihil Credo]

I love a card that has "Protection from non-Legacy".

[Nightmare]

So Reflecting Pool will be in type 2 again. Should be fun, I love that card.

[Illissius]

Cool (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2299). That was my favorite one in the cycle.

Now they'll print the whole cycle. Drool. Cairns and Horizon Canopy are the only dual lands in a long time which can even be superior to the originals for some purposes, so this is pretty cool. (On the minus side, it means they aren't giving us the Axis fetches just yet.)

[Raider Bob]

Will Tarmogoyf be Printed in Shadowmoor? As it was a 'Future' Card in Futuresight.

[TrialByFire]

Will Tarmogoyf be Printed in Shadowmoor? As it was a 'Future' Card in Futuresight.

No.

[Jaiminho]

Boldwyr Intimidator or whatever was printed in Morningtide and nothing else future shifted was. There's no need to assume anything else is going to be besides what has been spoiled already. Those lands aren't necessarily a cycle from Shadowmoor.

[Bovinious]

Im guessing that God-awful 2 mana 1/1 lifelink Kithkin from FS will get reprinted, its art looks like a lot of the art from this block iirc.

[hi-val]

Will Tarmogoyf be Printed in Shadowmoor? As it was a 'Future' Card in Futuresight.

Tarmogoyf will never, ever be reprinted.

[Nightmare]

Im guessing that God-awful 2 mana 1/1 lifelink Kithkin from FS will get reprinted, its art looks like a lot of the art from this block iirc.
That, and it's already on the spoiler...

[freakish777]

Tarmogoyf will never, ever be reprinted.


Until Wizards needs to print more money that is. =P

[Bovinious]

That, and it's already on the spoiler...

Nice, I was right :wink:

[Nightmare]

Nice, I was right :wink:

Oh yeah, you suure did call that one...

jesusfuckingchrist.

[Pinder]

Nice, I was right :wink:

Also, I totally bet there are going to be Magic cards in this set. Oh man, I'm totally awesome. Did you see that?

[Bovinious]

Also, I totally bet there are going to be Magic cards in this set. Oh man, I'm totally awesome. Did you see that?

And basic lands, MIRITE? Seriously though I didnt know that card was spoiled, that was my pure internet detective skills figuring out that card was coming back :wink:

[Jaiminho]

(...) that was my pure internet detective skills (...)

Read Google.

[Hightower]

I heard about a Demigod of Revenge would be printed, guess it will be a 5/4 Flying creature with R/B hybrid cost.. hmmm and I would also guess it has haste and some graveyard associated ability.
Am I close?

[Wallace]

So the Orb for Shadowmoor is up, I threw in a few words to see what pops up:


Planeswalker = 0
Tribal = 0
Changling = 0
Oona = 1
Queen = 2 (Beseech the Queen is 1)
Land = 42
Basic = 23
Legendary = 6
Equipment = 3
Goblin = 19
Elf = 23
Kithkin = 21

Now this doesn't mean there will be 19 goblins in the set or 21 Kithkin. It just means the word appears that many times...I think I figured out there will be 20 non-basic land due to the fact we know there are 20 basics. I don't see how there could be 23...The other 3 occurrences of the word basic will probably just refer to basic land...

...and I just had to enter:

Rigger = 0
Contraption = 0

O well

[MasterBlaster]

I heard about a Demigod of Revenge would be printed, guess it will be a 5/4 Flying creature with R/B hybrid cost.. hmmm and I would also guess it has haste and some graveyard associated ability.
Am I close?

You must be some kind of a sorceror!

[KillemallCFH]

The orb of insight reveals 0 Lhurgoyfs and 0 Atogs. This set sucks.

[donaldB]

I just put -1/-1 in to the orb, 86!?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I just put -1/-1 in to the orb, 86!?I think they're doing something with -1/-1 counters. An opposite to Reinforce perhaps.

[Wallace]

I think they're doing something with -1/-1 counters. An opposite to Reinforce perhaps.

Oooohhh.....good call, I could totally see this...

[Nihil Credo]

Some people have way too much time on their hands. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=107842)

[Wallace]

Some people have way too much time on their hands. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=107842)

Ha, I was just about to post the same thing!!! (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=107842) Yeah some of the findings here are interesting...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

No planeswalkers, but there is a plainswalker.

There also appears to be a card that costs x and blue black hybrid, that should be cool.

And I think Demigod of Revenge is part of a cycle based off of mana cost.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Some people have way too much time on their hands. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=107842)

Pretty sure they just plug in a search algorithm and wait for results.

[bladewing019]

Pretty sure they just plug in a search algorithm and wait for results.

There is a captcha you have to enter on the orb of insight now, so I think its all done manually.

[Bovinious]

Pale - 1
Moon - 1 (Pale Moon?)

WE CAN HOEP!!!


Scarecrow - 38

THE FUCK???

[Wallace]

WE CAN HOEP!!!


Scarecrow - 38

THE FUCK???

Bovinious...IS THERE ANY HOEP?

[Bovinious]

Bovinious...IS THERE ANY HOEP?

I dont follow.

[Sek'Kuar]

I dont follow.

Go back to bed Bovinious...

[conboy31]

Looks like there is a small chance for a useful reanimator/show and tell target in the set:
6/4 - 2
6/6 - 4

7/5 - 1
7/6 - 2
7/7 - 1

8/8 - 1
9/9 - 1

The -1/-1 mechanic on creatures may be able to find its way into a survival based deck favored over Masticore, etc.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think they're doing something with -1/-1 counters. An opposite to Reinforce perhaps.
This might be the "wither" mechanic that was hinted at with the precon previews today.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think there will be a "converted mana cost matters" theme, as demonstrated by Mistmedow Sulk. I had more supporting evidence, but I can't recall it.

[Pinder]

The persist mechanic allows them to laugh in the face of death, or even benefit from dying.


Wasn't there a mechanic submitted in the Great Designer Search that was called persist? I'm at work right now (and I'm lazy), but someone should look that up and see what it does.


I think they're doing something with -1/-1 counters. An opposite to Reinforce perhaps.

Uncounterable removal in all colors in Limited? That would be fucking sick.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Uncounterable removal in all colors in Limited? That would be fucking sick.I wasn't thinking of anything specific, but if it was a keyword, I think it would be something along the lines of decaying your own stuff for effects.

[Pinder]

I wasn't thinking of anything specific, but if it was a keyword, I think it would be something along the lines of decaying your own stuff for effects.

You're probably right, which is unfortunate, because something like this:

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MOR/EN/Card152710.jpg

But in black with -1/-1 where all the +1/+1s are would be fantastic.

[freakish777]

Uncounterable removal in all colors in Limited? That would be fucking sick.

Uh... except not. Reinforce was on 3 White cards, one Red card, and 2 Green cards... and a land which needed White mana for the reinforce cost.

Chances are extremely good that black will see most/all of it if it's an inversion of the Reinforce mechanic.

[Pinder]

Uh... except not. Reinforce was on 3 White cards, one Red card, and 2 Green cards... and a land which needed White mana for the reinforce cost.

Chances are extremely good that black will see most/all of it if it's an inversion of the Reinforce mechanic.

Good point. Either way I really hope it happens, because it's a really interesting way to do removal. The choice between a smaller, permanent decrease versus a larger, one shot decrease is really interesting, IMO.

edit - Although it probably would be a much different choice than Reinforce was. If you have a 2/2 and you can choose to give it +3/+3 until end of turn or +1/+1 forever, there's a choice between quick gain and lasting, recurring damage. The tension there is interesting. But if they have a 2/2, and you have a choice between giving it -3/-3 until end of turn or -1/-1 forever, that's not even a choice, really.

God, I sound like Mark Rosewater.

[Media314r8]

edit - Although it probably would be a much different choice than Reinforce was. If you have a 2/2 and you can choose to give it +3/+3 until end of turn or +1/+1 forever, there's a choice between quick gain and lasting, recurring damage. The tension there is interesting. But if they have a 2/2, and you have a choice between giving it -3/-3 until end of turn or -1/-1 forever, that's not even a choice, really.

God, I sound like Mark Rosewater.

But if a faerie player has a 2/2 flyer and a 5/5 beatstick (and lands untaped) would you rather try to risk it and outright KILL the beatstick, or trade your 4/4 for it VIA the uncounterable reinforce? There ARE interesting choices, and it could be a cool mechanic, but the cards prob won't be direct mirrors.

IE: 1B
instant
target dude gets -3/-3 until EoT
Bizzaro-Reinforce 1: 1B (discard this card, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature)

>>>> Last gasp, another common from a multi set that saw constructed play.

-1/-1 counters could do interesting things, like -1/-1 'lords' that made your opponents dudes with -1/-1 counters worse, like 'opponents dudes with -1/-1s lose all abilities' or 'lose all creature types.'

It could happen.

(I really just want rustic clachan to be mirrored by a goblin land that CiP tapped unless you reveal a goblin, and Bizzarro-reinforced for 1B to uncounterably kill dark confidants, ect)

[TrialByFire]

(I really just want rustic clachan to be mirrored by a goblin land that CiP tapped unless you reveal a goblin, and Bizzarro-reinforced for 1B to uncounterably kill dark confidants, ect)

That would be epic.

[Nihil Credo]

My problem with a large use of -1/-1 counters is the same reason why they faded them out in the first place: it's a pain in the ass to tell them apart from +1/+1 counters.

The current policy of the two types cancelling each other out doesn't help very much: if you've got a 2/2 with a counter on your side, is it a +1/+1 from your Cenn's Tactician or a -1/-1 from the opponent's 'witherer'? It's even worse if your counters and your opponent's look similar - or, god forbid, the both of you use coins or dice.

[mujadaddy]

coins
Heads'n'Tails, baby :tongue:

[Nihil Credo]

Meh. I'm more afraid they'll come up with 'Official WotC-endorsed MTG +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters!'. But as much as I'd love to play the cynic, I don't think they will.

[bigbear102]

dices.

Just wanted to quote that...

I think that CMC will matter. The cards which have a CMC of 6, but can be played for 3 will probably have a couple of cool interactions with stuff in the set.

[Watcher487]

My problem with a large use of -1/-1 counters is the same reason why they faded them out in the first place: it's a pain in the ass to tell them apart from +1/+1 counters.

The current policy of the two types cancelling each other out doesn't help very much: if you've got a 2/2 with a counter on your side, is it a +1/+1 from your Cenn's Tactician or a -1/-1 from the opponent's 'witherer'? It's even worse if your counters and your opponent's look similar - or, god forbid, the both of you use coins or dice.

Wait wait wait... wasn't there like a whole list of rulings made with 'counter-active' counters (a la +1/+1 and a -1/-1 counters on the same critter) cancel each other out?

[Lego]

Wait wait wait... wasn't there like a whole list of rulings made with 'counter-active' counters (a la +1/+1 and a -1/-1 counters on the same critter) cancel each other out?

He mentioned that already. He was just saying it's hard when you have more than one creature with a counter on it to tell what each counter does.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

He mentioned that already. He was just saying it's hard when you have more than one creature with a counter on it to tell what each counter does.

And I think that Watcher meant that "counters cancelling each other" means that if you have a positive and a negative-one counter on a creature, it simply has no counters at all.

Which still leaves the issue of differentiating different creatures with counters on them. That much is still entirely up to the player. Personally, I prefer mints and paper.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

"Q" is revealed. (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2310)

Interesting, to say the least.

[Jaynel]

Holy smokes. Talk about unexplored design space.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Ellipsis.

[MasterBlaster]

I have a feeling that this untap mechanic will lead to a few combos.

[Pinder]

The big question here is, can creatures use untap abilities the turn they come into play, or do they need haste? For instance, if they came into play under Root Maze or something.

Also, holy shit.

edit- In slightly more conventional news, a 4/3 flier for 4 that turns Lightning Bolt into Recall? (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2312) Hot damn. The drawback is actually sort of heavy (it turns opponent's Bolts into Recalls too, after all), but there just has to be a deck you can build to abuse this.

[Nihil Credo]

I guess they now wish they had never printed Flame Fusillade - it requires them to pair {Q} with a mana cost, unless it's on a ridiculously overcosted card.

That aside, it's one heck of a "of course! Why didn't I think of it before?" mechanic, and hella cool.

EDIT2: Nevermind. I misread Swans' Song as if its controller drew cards, which would obviously have been utter insanity.

EDIT3: Still, it seems at least worth a second look. Since it's got evasion, it shouldn't be difficult to not get it damaged by your opponent, and your Lightning Bolts become Ancestral Recalls.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Hmm...

In response to your Bolt, I'll use my own Bolt* on it. It's still card advantage.

*More likely Psionic Blast, I doubt it will see play out side of blue or white stompy. Unless Thresh needs something better then Fledgling Mawcore or Mystic Enforcer.

[Nihil Credo]

Hmm...

In response to your Bolt, I'll use my own Bolt* on it. It's still card advantage.
Swans' Song is immune to all damage. In that scenario, you both would draw three.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Swans' Song is immune to all damage. In that scenario, you both would draw three.I missed that bit. Interesting how they made a card that's immune to damage, yet your opponent wants to play burn spells on it.

[edgewalker]

They draw 3 cards for using a bolt, it's basically a red ancestral or a 3 for 1 trade in cards.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I want a land that says Q: add a mana.:laugh: Infinate uncounterable mana with Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[Pinder]

Unless Thresh needs something better then Fledgling Mawcore or Mystic Enforcer.

I think you mean Fledgling Dragon. In any case, this could possibly be a decent finisher in UGr Thresh over Dragon, because doesn't require Thresh, is in the deck's main color, and it turns Fire/Ice and Bolt into solid draw spells and removal. You have to keep this dude out of combat though, because even a single block with something bigger than a 1/1 means instant CA for your opponent (they lose a guy, but draw 2+ cards). Overall I'm not sure what to think about this guy

Oh, and a list of some possibly relevant guys Tutor of Whiteclay (the untap guy) can bring back:

Tarmogoyf
Meddling Mage
Troll Ascetic
Serra Avenger
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness (!)

And I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

edit - Eh, it's probably just easier to post a list of every creature with CMC 3 or less in the whole game (http://magiccards.info/query/1637712.html).

[xsockmonkeyx]

Oh, and a list of some possibly relevant guys Tutor of Whiteclay (the untap guy) can bring back:

Tarmogoyf
Meddling Mage
Troll Ascetic
Serra Avenger
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness (!)

And I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245) them into the yard.

I guess you could Paradise Mantle/Multani's Harmony him for fun. Utopia Vow in T2.

[rasmus_agren@hotmail.com]

I'd say Swan's Song is pretty good with Chain of Plasma. Draw your deck for 1R instant speed.

[raharu]

Oh damn. Go Go Combo...

[Pinder]

I'd say Swan's Song is pretty good with Chain of Plasma. Draw your deck for 1R instant speed.

HAWT.

Of course, you actually have to do something with all those cards, but I'm sure there's something out there. Coolest part is that, after you're done, you still get to deal your opponent 3 damage, too!

edit - Actually, I think the best part is that it's a two-card combo where both pieces serve useful functions outside of it. Oh man.

edit2 - Just realizes it also allows you (well, forces you) to discard a third of your draws. Some sort of crazy reanimation combo?

[Barook]

I'd say Swan's Song is pretty good with Chain of Plasma. Draw your deck for 1R instant speed.

Ha ha, Wizards never thought of that one. Insane combos, here we come!

[Nihil Credo]

And Extended legal for another year, too!

So... hmmm... what is the least clunky way to win off 40 cards in hand, no matter how desperate the board state?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Simian Spirit Guide and flasback Conflagrate.

[rasmus_agren@hotmail.com]

Or maybe with Lightning Storm if you want to go for a somewhat more expensive instant win?

[Barook]

Simian Spirit Guide and flasback Conflagrate.

Throw in some Chrome Moxen to speed the entire combo up and this sounds actually decent.

What's the best color combination to go? U/R? Blue would give you draw/library manipulation and protection in form of FoW and Daze.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Simian Spirit Guide and flasback Conflagrate.

Lols, Conflagrate. I was also looking for something permanent, like Seimic Assault + 10 lands, to play off of Spirit Guides, but this is pretty good.