What is it? Gro or Thresh?

[Peter_Rotten]

I'm a bit of an organization freak and one thing that bothers me, when it comes to organizing the DTBF, is the dilema of what to consider Thresh and what to consider Gro. I starting to lean to considering Gro a Thresh deck. Take a look at these lists:

List 1
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Quirion Dryad

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Senseis Divining Top
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder

List 2
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Quirion Dryad
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

List 3
4 UW fetch
4 Waste
4 Tropical
4 Tundra
2 Island

4 Meddling Mage
4 Mongoose
4 Dryad

4 StP
4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Bstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Misdirection
2 E-Truth

Would you consider those 3 decks to be Thresh lists running Dryad?

Ultimately, I'm wondering 9 Thresh decks and 3 Gro decks in this month's update as simply a total of 12 Thresh decks. Thoughts?

[Nihil Credo]

#1 and #2 definitely. Before Goyf, lots of lists used to back Werebear with Quirion Dryads for extra beats.

#3 is a bit more odd, but I'm still betting that if the owner had had an extra $160 to blow on the list he'd have run Goyfs. So, I say put this one under NQG/Thresh too.

[Bovinious]

I would say #1 and #2 are offbeat Thresh decks, and Im not really sure what #3 is, i think with the lack of Goyf and therefore more reliance on Dryad, plus more 1CC spells I could consider this one Gro. To me, Gro is a deck that runs Quirion Dryad(4) and many 1CC spells (like 20+) in order to fully utilize Dryad as a main game plan. I dont get why Europeans call Threshold "Not Quite Gro" or whatever because the decks are way different...See Alan Comer's original Miracle Gro deck from Extended in like 1999 to see how different real Gro is.

[AnwarA101]

The difference between Thresh and Gro is pretty arbitrary. Pre-Goyf it was a difference between using Dryad over one of the Threshold creatures, but the decks play out in the very same way - cantrips, counters, cheap creatures. Post-Goyf, everyone plays Goyf and some other creatures either Dryad or Threshold creatures. But its the same deck.

[Adan]

I would say #1 and #2 are offbeat Thresh decks, and Im not really sure what #3 is, i think with the lack of Goyf and therefore more reliance on Dryad, plus more 1CC spells I could consider this one Gro. To me, Gro is a deck that runs Quirion Dryad(4) and many 1CC spells (like 20+) in order to fully utilize Dryad as a main game plan. I dont get why Europeans call Threshold "Not Quite Gro" or whatever because the decks are way different...See Alan Comer's original Miracle Gro deck from Extended in like 1999 and see what Gro really is.

Strange definition. Miracle-/SuperGrow was a deck that played Dryads, Meddling Mages, Werebears and sometimes Enforcers and Nimble Mongoose with a lot of cantrips to generate CQ and to boost the Dryad.

It was a succesful deck because it could operate on less mana and being hardly vulnerable to manadenial-effects (at that time, 4 Gush were still legal).
But in Legacy, there is too much spotremoval that handles the Dryad very fast before it can harm someone.

The Europeans call Threshold "NQG" because the creatures can only grow to a specific limit (Goose = 3/3, Bears = 4/4), but they have the advantage that they don't suck as a topdeck compared to the Dryad.

But due to the fact that the remaining things of the deck haven't been changed significantly, it's called "Not Quite Grow". Just because it lacks Dryads.

But it's obvious that - no matter whether you run Dryads or not - the concept of Threshold as an aggro-control deck is always the same. So just rank them all as Threshold and everything's fine.

/edit: Though it was less detailed, Anwar was faster than me. -.-

[Citrus-God]

If I remember correctly, the Hatfields referred to their old Thresh lists as "Gro." It was probably because they designed them with Dryads originally and later left it as Gro because of the plethora of cantrips being used at the time.

[Phantom]

All three look like Thresh to me, however offbeat. Interesting to see Aggro Control catching on to the hotness that is Hoofprints.

[zulander]

Gro and Thresh is the same thing. The difference is as small as asking "Are you playing gbr zoo or gagomy?".

[Bardo]

Ultimately, I'm wondering 9 Thresh decks and 3 Gro decks in this month's update as simply a total of 12 Thresh decks. Thoughts?

All run 18 land, Daze, cantrips + 1 & 2 cc green beaters = Thresh. The Gro part isn't a relevant distinction any more.

[Ewokslayer]

They are both Gro and Thresh.
In Legacy
Gro = Thresh.

Just like in Baseball
New York Yankees = Bronx Bombers

[AnwarA101]

All run 18 land, Daze, cantrips + 1 & 2 cc green beaters = Thresh. The Gro part isn't a relevant distinction any more.

It never was.

[Ewokslayer]

I suppose that the term "Gro" indicates the presence of Dryad somewhere in the deck, but knowing that isn't really relevant.

[Tacosnape]

Regardless of what you call it, it's all the same deck. Changing one card (Dryad) doesn't make it an entirely new deck. It functions exactly the same. Cantrips, efficient Green creatures, free counters, wins. All 12 should be the same as far as the counts go.

[Dilettante]

Let's put it this way... They're an incestuous twin love-affair. One gave birth to the other; one went off and started screwing with hot chicks to get their penis enlarged (Gro) while the other went into a tailspinning form of amnesiatic depression, (Threshold) using their forgetfulness as a tool to forget that the other one existed. Then came along a odd child (Tarmogoyf) that they both coveted because he was 'special' , made them drop their differences, adopt him, and settle down with each other. They're now one and the same. The end.

Argh... less grapefruit juice...

[Ewokslayer]

Let's put it this way... They're an incestuous twin love-affair. One gave birth to the other; one went off and started screwing with hot chicks to get their penis enlarged (Gro) while the other went into a tailspinning form of amnesiatic depression, (Threshold) using their forgetfulness as a tool to forget that the other one existed. Then came along a odd child (Tarmogoyf) that they both coveted because he was 'special' , made them drop their differences, adopt him, and settle down with each other. They're now one and the same. The end.

Argh... less grapefruit juice...

Is it surprising that the Red Sox fan immediately went to Incest to describe something?

[from Cairo]

I'm a bit of an organization freak and one thing that bothers me, when it comes to organizing the DTBF, is the dilema of what to consider Thresh and what to consider Gro.

In terms of classifying them for DTB status they are the same. Both names are outdated. Gro was the early '00s EXT deck that ran Gush and Dryad. Thresh was the port the Legacy that had Werebear and Mongoose. Now it uses Goyf, it's still the same strategy...

16-18 land, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Daze, 4 FoW, bunch of other Cantrips, undercosted green guys, disrupt your opponent long enough to bash face.dec

[scrumdogg]

Is it surprising that the Red Sox fan immediately went to Incest to describe something?

Or that the Yankees fan immediately perked up when he heard the term? The differences are historical & moot at this point, unless Tarmogoyf inconceievably gets banned at some point.

[FoolofaTook]

Functionally they're all Thresh-lite. Why the 3rd list is nerfing itself by running Dryad instead of Goyf is a separate question.

Threshold means what these days? That a Nimble Mongoose gets to attack?

In the face of graveyard hate is Nimble Mongoose still the right answer in Threshold at this point? How long until something better comes along and there are no cards that require Threshold at all in the deck?

[Machinus]

If you don't call it Xerox you're being incorrect. Just get over the stupid local nomenclature.

[frogboy]

what the hell is xerox?

[thefreakaccident]

Its' the name of the original mono-blue version of the deck that eventually evolved into miracle gro... It was the first blue based agro-control, funny, seems so long ago.

[Bardo]

what the hell is xerox?

Alan Comer's counter-heavy, land-light aggro-control Turbo Xerox preceded U/g Miracle Gro's break-out performance at GP Las Vegas (2001), which begat the whole Super Gro / GAT line of construction that we know today.

"Turbo Xerox"
Alan Comer

4 Man-o'-War
4 Suq'Ata Firewalker
4 Waterspout Djinn

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Memory Lapse
4 Power Sink
3 Dissipate

4 Portent
4 Impulse
4 Foreshadow

1 Dream Tides

17 Island

The innovation that we take for granted today, is cheap blue draw spells that replace land.

[Tacosnape]

Uh. I would argue that that deck is definitely in no way whatsoever related to modern Threshold.

Just call it Threshold.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Uh. I would argue that that deck is definitely in no way whatsoever related to modern Threshold.
You would be very wrong.

Call them whatever you like, but all of these decks should be classified together.

[Bardo]

Uh. I would argue that that deck is definitely in no way whatsoever related to modern Threshold.


Turbo Xerox is the great grandfather of Legacy Threshold. Comer's ideas were ground-breaking: heavy focus on tempo, abundance of countermagic in a deck with very little land. At the time, remember that Buehler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb63) was creating these mono-blue beasts of a control deck with 20 counterspells and 26-29 land (with more land in the board). The counter heavy decks would stop their opponent from doing anything, draw more cards than their opponent and eventually win on like turn 30.

Comer's approach was to run a shit pile of counters as well, but to use those counters to leverage tempo, cut back its land to (Comer's U/G Miracle Gro only ran 10 land), and use its disruption to win the game--not grind the game to a halt.

Xerox begat Miracle Gro which begat Super Gro (U/G/w) which is the same strategic thinking that has been used to develop Legacy Thresh decks. While the old Xerox lists look a lot different, you've got to look under the hood to see how similar they are.

[FoolofaTook]

On a related note, why is Fish still called Fish when it has no Fish?

When Threshold has no Threshold left in the deck wouldn't it make sense to call it something else that is more accurate, like Kill Filter or something?

[Bardo]

It never was.

Up until a couple of years ago, Gro always implied < 20 land, Quirion Dryad and lots of cheap blue cantrips. Threshold, in Extended anyhow, was usually straight U/G with Wonder, Wild Mongrel, Deep Analysis, 22-23 land and was overall a completely different deck than "Gro."

In Legacy, however, I agree: Gro and Threshold are the same deck; with Gro, again meaning the Dryad is in the deck.


On a related note, why is Fish still called Fish when it has no Fish?

This has been the case for at least the past four years. Fish used to run Lord of Atlantis and merfolk--however the Fish strategy is the same now as ever: cheap beaters crammed in a blue-disruption shell.


When Threshold has no Threshold left in the deck wouldn't it make sense to call it something else that is more accurate, like Kill Filter or something?

Kill Filter? :eyebrow:

[Nihil Credo]

I've always considered Gro to mean "Deck with Quirion Dryad and/or Psychatog"; in the same way that Big Mana means "Deck with Urzatron or Cloudpost". Such labels have no pure strategic meaning - I agree with the sentiment that there is no design difference in Legacy between Gro and Thresh - but at least it's unambiguous.

[Ewokslayer]

Wow, two pages of posting on what to call a deck.
I think I have the perfect solution, lets call all the decks that play Green undercosted beaters in a Blue disruption/cantrip shell regardless of any splashes Ewok Stompy.

The End.

[AnwarA101]

Up until a couple of years ago, Gro always implied < 20 land, Quirion Dryad and lots of cheap blue cantrips. Threshold, in Extended anyhow, was usually straight U/G with Wonder, Wild Mongrel, Deep Analysis, 22-23 land and was overall a completely different deck than "Gro."

In Legacy, however, I agree: Gro and Threshold are the same deck; with Gro, again meaning the Dryad is in the deck.



Whether the deck has Dryad in it or not does not change the deck's strategy in any meaningful way. So treating them or even calling them something different offers no insight and probably adds more confusion than anything else.



This has been the case for at least the past four years. Fish used to run Lord of Atlantis and merfolk--however the Fish strategy is the same now as ever: cheap beaters crammed in a blue-disruption shell.


I would disagree. Older versions of Fish relied on generating tempo by resource denial (Wasteland, Strip Mine, Null Rod). Newer versions of Fish at least in type 1 resemble more closely hate decks that try to incorporate hate cards for type 1 strategies such as Meddling Mage or even things as bizarre as Stormscape Apprentice.

[FoolofaTook]

Kill Filter? :eyebrow:

Well the essential qualities of Threshold that will be left when the little rodent bites it will be all the cantrips and a lot of undercosted threats that get filtered into the hand quickly by them.

It just bothers me somehow (and it's probably irrational) that a deck that killed with Merfolk managed to retain the name when it has nothing remotely resembling a Merfolk in it. That's partly what the original post in this thread was addressing, the divergence of common themes into separate entities that share qualities but not very many actual cards.

Man - Chimpanzee - Gorilla - Orangutan

Fish - Fish - Fish - Fish

[MattH]

Regardless of what you call it, it's all the same deck. Changing one card (Dryad) doesn't make it an entirely new deck. It functions exactly the same. Cantrips, efficient Green creatures, free counters, wins. All 12 should be the same as far as the counts go.

Well, changing one card CAN make an entirely new deck, just not in this particular case.

They're more or less synonymous these days, so w/e. Just don't leave out the first H in Threshold - I'M LOOKING AT YOU, EUROPE. It's like reading the sound of claws on a blackboard.


started screwing with hot chicks to get their penis enlarged
Isn't that putting the cart before the, uh, horse?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Up until a couple of years ago, Gro always implied < 20 land, Quirion Dryad and lots of cheap blue cantrips. Threshold, in Extended anyhow, was usually straight U/G with Wonder, Wild Mongrel, Deep Analysis, 22-23 land and was overall a completely different deck than "Gro."
Incidentally, this is why my brother and I stuck to calling our Legacy decks "Gro" long after we cut Quirion Dryad from it. Honestly, I still don't understand why everyone settled on "Threshold," when that name already belongs to a very different deck.

I think it was Toad that got so confused by this that he once referred to Legacy Threshold as "a block deck."

[Machinus]

The name Gro comes from Quirion Dryad. If you aren't "growing" a Dryad then you aren't playing Gro in any sense of the word. The name Threshold comes from playing Nimble Mongoose and Werebear along with other threshold(the mechanic)-related cards.

Threshold decks don't have Dryad in them so it makes a little more sense to call them Threshold since some of the cards are threshold-related. Neither one is really accurate, but Threshold was a little more logical. Now it's just an adaptation and the Legacy decks we are talking about have been firmly labeled "Threshold." The name is established now even if it began on shakier grounds.

[Citrus-God]

Soo.... Should we settle on calling it Thresh when it runs 4 Geese and maybe 1-3 fliers? Why don't we settle on calling it Neo Xerox with CB and Top? It emphasizes on card quality and such... that or we call it something lame, like NQG which works just as well as the bad example name I brought up.

[frogboy]

why don't you get your panties out of a knot and just make sure it's uniquely identifiable.

[Osse]

I think the first two should be classified as Next Level Blue (Go Go Chapin!) and the third as Threshold/Gro (They really are the basic same strategy). I think the BalanceTop decks are not anywhere near what the Thresh/Gro lists are. And to extend that point, I think the "Next Level Blue" lists are nowhere near optimal.

[Bryant Cook]

NQG works just fine or something retarded like Goyfbalance.

[Ewokslayer]

I think the first two should be classified as Next Level Blue (Go Go Chapin!) and the third as Threshold/Gro (They really are the basic same strategy). I think the BalanceTop decks are not anywhere near what the Thresh/Gro lists are. And to extend that point, I think the "Next Level Blue" lists are nowhere near optimal.

NQG works just fine or something retarded like Goyfbalance.

Soo.... Should we settle on calling it Thresh when it runs 4 Geese and maybe 1-3 fliers? Why don't we settle on calling it Neo Xerox with CB and Top? It emphasizes on card quality and such... that or we call it something lame, like NQG which works just as well as the bad example name I brought up.

Why would you want to rename Ewok Stompy?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm glad that this descriptive name thing is working out so well.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I'm glad that this descriptive name thing is working out so well.
On that note, I really miss SCG's Legacy section. Some interesting format discussion happened there, despite the ridiculously high level of arguing. Those discussions definately made me more interested in the game and the format.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Then they probably should have avoided banning people for stupid reasons, or possibly gotten better mods(Toad and Anusien? Seriously?).

The SCG forums took too much energy. It might be amusing that it was full of trolls for a little bit, but it loses its charm after a while.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'm glad that this descriptive name thing is working out so well.

What could be more descriptive than EwokStompy?

[etrigan]

Besides Kill Filter?

[Ewokslayer]

Besides Kill Filter?

Umm,
The next Tier 1 Legacy Deck you create, you can name Kill Filter.
Until then, leave EwokStompy alone.

[Nihil Credo]

Kill Filter is a very good name for an old-school thrash metal band, though. (Get it? Thrash? Hah.)

EwokStompy... eh, maybe a metrosexual electronica duo. Or perhaps a dodecaphonic hardcore compilation.

[Citrus-God]

Kill Filter is a very good name for an old-school thrash metal band, though. (Get it? Thrash? Hah.)

Or something awesome, like Children of Bodom.


EwokStompy... eh, maybe a metrosexual electronica duo. Or perhaps a dodecaphonic hardcore compilation.

umm... how about a crappy metrosexual electronica band called Metro Station?