[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Van Phanel]

Red has the most powerful sideboard options by far. Also Dreadstills biggest weakness is the manabase and I wouldn't want to dilute it even more.

@Mask: Seriously? I don't see it, sorry. It doesn't stop Fetchlands (and other stupid stuff like stopping merfolk from activating a manland when they could trade with your Nought, Jitte, Survival, EE, Storm and the list goes on) and it doesn't pitch to FoW. Those reasons alone are enough for me to keep Trickbind.

[Slight]

is there a solution to response to Krosan grip because it makes really bad to dreadstill?
Have you some solutions?
Slight

[Azdraël]

Foresee it and hide trinket on top. Otherwise preach.

[sdematt]

They also have to have it the turn you have Dreadnought, and they only have 4. If they mull into Grip like people do with Leyline, they'll usually keep a crap hand that includes Grip and not many other plays. You set up Countertop first, then drop the Nought. Otherwise, you race out the Nought and see how it goes. He has 4 Grips, true, you have 4 Noughts, an impressive array of counters, and 3 Trinket Mages to search for him. I'm not saying Krosan Grip isn't good against us, because it is, but we can beat it.

I played in an 8 man yesterday, and placed second (tied for second).

My list was the BoM list from Van Phanel. It's a wonderful list :D

Round 1: Ichorid
Game1: Was playing against a good friend of mine. I get Dreadnought, but somehow, he gets three mana and hardcasts the Dredger with Deathtouch, and a Tireless Tribe. He basically drops his hand to block, and I don't have enough counters to counter it. I really can't get in there, so I scoop so we can get to game 2.
In: Firespout, EE, Crypt, Relic.
Out: Daze, other randoms.
Game 2: I draw a hand with 2 lands, Firespout, and a crap-ton of counters. Seems solid. He Dredges an absolute crap ton, and Cabal Therapies me. Problem here, I counter the first one, he sacs for the second one, and I reveal my hand because I thought he called the card. Apparently he didn't. Basically, I lose the game here. He takes my Firespout, makes me hide my good stuff with Brainstorm, Dread Returns Iona. Frick.

0-1

Round 2: Merfolk
Game 1: Blow him out of the water. I use Factories to take out his Silvergills, I waste his Mutas, and I counter his Islandwalking crap. I get there with Factory and Trinket beats. Huzzah!
In: Buttrape
Out: Standstill.
Game 2: I draw Firespout, Counter, counter, counter, land, land, Factory. Seems solid. I set up Countertop, wait until he has 3-4 guys on board, then Firespout. He can't recover, so I Dreadnought in. Wewt.

1-1

Round 3: Burning Wish Tendrils combo
Game 1: He miscounts and Tendrils me for 16, leaving me at 3. I wasteland all of his 2 lands, then I get there with Dreadnoguht, and counter his relevant threats.
Game 2: I keep him off his early lands, then search for EE and set at 0. I lay Manlands with Standstill, and counter his Ponders and such. He loses, and he had Empty the Warrens combo in hand. Ouch.

2-1

Pretty happy. The Ichorid games we a combination of bad draws on my part, and seemingly wicked plays on his. Oh well. I'm happy with my prize of a can or Dr. Pepper :D

-Matt

[DuxDucis]

I'm happy with my prize of a can or Dr. Pepper :D

Impressive prize pool. Check your email btw :D

[Slight]

Ok thanx for answers !
But it is difficult to found a list between the lot there are ! I test this with grim it is wonderfull too :)
Cordially

This is the list I test and I found the most !

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ZEN] Island (2)

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast

I try to include Spellstutter Sprite it was not so bad!

[Rood]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=253564

Leyline seems pretty fun at least on paper. Respond to your spell play Counterbalance? Lol EOT play Dreadnought.

[Van Phanel]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=253564

Leyline seems pretty fun at least on paper. Respond to your spell play Counterbalance?

Doesn't work. CB only triggers when it is in play at the time a spell is being cast. Also please stop considering bad cards, at least you if nobody else in here should know better.

[GexxX]

Hey Guys.

I am quite new to Legacy but I've got most of the Deck's cards needed for it.
I'd like to show up at some Legacy Turnaments in Germany, but since the Deck is very much a control Deck, I am not sure if it's the best option.
I have literally no real Idea what the Meta looks like. This leads to a couple of questions:

1. Do you think a Legacy Rookie can pilot the Deck at a turney for actual learning process? Does it suck to learn how to defeat several matchups?
2. Is there some kind of allround sideboard for the Deck? I expect lots of Aggro, but that's still rough.

I really liked the Grim List above. It seems to offer a strong strategy, so this is propably my way to go.

thanks for answers and thoughts ;)

[dsck]

Hey Guys.

I am quite new to Legacy but I've got most of the Deck's cards needed for it.
I'd like to show up at some Legacy Turnaments in Germany, but since the Deck is very much a control Deck, I am not sure if it's the best option.
I have literally no real Idea what the Meta looks like. This leads to a couple of questions:

1. Do you think a Legacy Rookie can pilot the Deck at a turney for actual learning process? Does it suck to learn how to defeat several matchups?
2. Is there some kind of allround sideboard for the Deck? I expect lots of Aggro, but that's still rough.

I really liked the Grim List above. It seems to offer a strong strategy, so this is propably my way to go.

thanks for answers and thoughts ;)

From what I know about german meta, Dreadstill is doing well.

For an actual learning process you can pilot anything, you should not expect winning all your games in your first tournaments though :tongue: Losing always sucks but I dont think there are many bad matchups. You will learn how to SB correctly for all matchups eventually and there is good primer on page 1 for starters. Firespout/Explosives/Lightning bolts/Perishes are your main weapons from SB against aggro decks.

I myself plan on testing Grims as they help a lot vs Merfolk and Death and Taxes which I have found difficult matchups.

[Rood]

Doesn't work. CB only triggers when it is in play at the time a spell is being cast. Also please stop considering bad cards, at least you if nobody else in here should know better.

Yeah I actually did know that I just forgot to edit my post afterwards lol. Last time I checked Mask was definetally not that terrible but I agree that the Leyline is pretty poor since we can't use the triggers off of Standstill or CB in response to a spell.

[BKclassic]

I ran this build at my local Legacy tourney:

Fae Dread Still:
6 Fetch
4 Island
3 Volc
1 Trop
3 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives

SB
2 Firespout
2 Shattering Spree
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Exposives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

Basically you run Spellstutter Sprite over Spell Snare and trim some of the Dreadnought package for Lightning Bolt. I cut Perish for Shattering Spree because I thought there might be some Grim Monolith decks, which didn't pan out, I wish I had stayed with Perish. The meta ended up being really scrubby though, and the only good deck that my posse didn't bring was one guy with New Horizons. At least three people at this tournament were named 'Chris'.

Round 1: Chris with U/B Mill
Game 1: His deck isn't good. Spellstutter Sprite counters Memory Sluice. Counterbalance, Standstill and Dreadnought do him in.
-1 Daze, -1 Standstill, +2 Pyroblast
Game 2: More of the same, but Mutavault and Sprite do him in.
(1-0)

Round 2: Chris with Kilnfiend Burn
Game 1: I can't find any real gas and he slowly wears me down with Kilnfiends.
-1 Daze, -1 Standstill, +2 Hydroblast
Game 2: Turn 4 Naught win.
Game 3: I get overambitious with trying to get a two for one with EE, and lose when it turns out he's playing Fireblast.
1-1

Round 3: Some Guy with Lorwyn Block R/G
Game 1: I can't find any gas and Countryside Crusher, Chameleon Colossus and Boggart Ramgang eventually wear me down.
-1 Daze, -1 Standstill, -1 CB, -1 Top, +2 Hydroblast, +2 Firespout
Round 2: Turn 4 Dreadnought win.
Round 3: I get a Nought, it gets in there once but then it trades with 3 Imperious Perfect. Fortunantely Mutavault and Trinket Mage can close the deal easily.
2-1

Round 4: Jim with Mono W Painter Servant/Pro Black guys
Game 1: He plays some Auriok Champions and Paths and then Swords my Dreadnought, but I play Lightning Bolts, Standstills, Spellstutters and Mutavaults, which grind him down from 33.
Game 2: I dispatch Painter's Servants while he plays Pro Black guys. Eventually a Dreadnought runs him down from 27.
3-1


So, the meta stank, but Lightning Bolt was really useful against those scrubby decks. Spellstutter Sprite is okay, its ability to attack and block can be quite useful, and it did a great job countering Memory Sluice. However, against Goyfs and Counterbalances, you find yourself missing Spell Snare a bit.

Next week, I think I will try a version that eschews CB/Top in favor of Aether Vial and more Faeries.

(I am sharing the not because the report or the meta was great, but because I think this is a cool twist on Dreadstill).

[Zinch]

Why would you want to counter Memory Sluice?

[Dark Ritual]

Discussing our MU against mill decks really doesn't matter I feel since a) they blow when you bash their face in and b) Only casual scrubs play them in legacy. Countering memory sluice with sprite might be the right move if their deck has a ridiculously high curve that can't be countered with sprite so sprite has to counter their one drops that one drop being a memory sluice.

Illusionary mask would be playable if it costed one mana since we could get it with trinket mage then and go nuts with it but as is it dies to spell snare and is simply put not that good. I would max out noughts, stifles, and trickbinds before playing the card. I also find myself not wanting to spend over $100 on a card that is utter jank.

[sdematt]

The problem is, the current wording is complete crap for Illusionary Mask for most creatures. To us, it doesn't matter too much, it's just not practical. You have no way to get it, and it gets blown up just like a Dreadnought will, as it's going to sit there until you draw into combo. At least Stifle isn't a dead card if you don't draw Nought; Illusionary Mask is quite the opposite.

-Matt

[owenzzz]

Hi,

I was thinking of putting Renegade doppleganger since it is in synergy for both Stutter sprite and Dnought. You can also add a tech of using Ninja of the deep hours for extra draw. i am still experimenting my mono U Dreadstill and it is quite good against my previous play.

1 good thing that happened to me during the testplay is that i have both stiflenought and renegade in play. a quick 12 damage via doppelganger copying nought is good to seal the next turn kill by dreadnought. here is what happened.

doppelganger in play i casted stiflenought then swing doppelganger. in oponent's turn, he casted QPM and in response, i casted Stuttersprite. and doppelganger copy stutter that in effect there are 2 faeries in play.

i seal the game on next turn when the real nought did the damage. a

[Van Phanel]

in oponent's turn, he casted QPM and in response, i casted Stuttersprite. and doppelganger copy stutter that in effect there are 2 faeries in play.


Sorry to break your illusion, but Spellstutter Sprite and Renegade Doppelganger is not a combo, so you actually cheated (unknowingly of course). When Spellstutter Sprite enters the battlefield two abilities trigger. The problem is that you have to choose a target for Spellstutter Sprite's ability before Renegade Doppelganger's ability resolves. At that time you only control one Faerie, so Pridemage is an illegal target.

[jazzykat]

Has anyone tried cutting Standstill for Predict?

[ScatmanX]

Has anyone tried cutting Standstill for Predict?

or Spreading Seas ? I heard that it is quite good coupled with Wastelands and Stifles...

[P-AiR]

I like it.. we can change the deck name to "Dreadict" or Prednought" oooOo.

[F3lix]

Don't be fooled, Standstill is still great. It draws more cards and more importantly, it stalls the game. Even it if Mystical Tutor was still rampant, Predict would still not be as good.

Plus Teferi's Responce would be better in here than Predict, I think.

[sdematt]

I find myself boarding out the Standstills a lot of the time. I was thinking about changing one Standstill to one Vision Charm. Reason? Allows me another spell to counter the Dreadnought trigger, and also allows me, in a way, to more freely use my Stifles. Plus, I haven't found Standstill as good in many of the matches I'm playing (Merfolk, Goblins, etc.)


-Matt

[Rood]

What do you guys think of putting CB/Top in the sb. Against sometimes Zoo and Merfolk it isn't always too great. I've been revisiting Ugr and have been working with this list.

// Lands
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [P3] Island (2)
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [SHM] Firespout
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast

Key things to note here:
-Firespout is absolutely maindecked as a 3 of. No reason not to running Lurgoyf and with the meta being flooded with aggro.
-CB/Top moved to the SB. I'm not sure this is correct but if you're preparing to face more aggro decks like I'm thinking then it might be a correct call to move it to the SB.
-1x Krosan Grip SB: Possible 2/3?


So again I'm just trying to revisit Ugr Dreadstill. Feedback is appreciated.

[BKclassic]

I think Lightning Bolt is a better MD card than Firespout for Dreadstill. Lightning Bolt can help Turn 2 Standstills happen, win Goyf wars, is easier to resolve against Merfolk, and can finish off an opponent.

I would be wary of cutting Counterbalance for a card that doesn't counter Swords to Plowshares. I tried out Spellstutter Sprite because it can buy time against Aggro, counter Swords to Plowshares, is a threat under Standstill, and can counter bigger spells if Standstill takes you into the late game. Vendillion Clique could be cool, also.

[kiwi]

I played a ugr list with goyf and lavamancers in 140 people tournament:


// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

side :
3 firespout
3 krosan grip
4 tormods cript
3 lightning bolts
2 spell pierce

I wanted to play lavamancer because now I expect a lot of tribal decks goblins, merfolk and lavamancer is good in goyf wars moreover lavamancer has sinergy with standstill.
Matches
2-1 zoo
2-1 bant
1-2 landstill
2-0 againts ub combo deck with vampire hexmage
1-2 GW deck with vials.
2-1 againts dragon stompy
1-2 vs Trheshold and drop because I wanted to see world soccer cup :)

Impressions:
1) I missed in my sideboard some kind of card like miind harness, sower of tempation or threads,

2) Manabase is weaker than in ur , moreover I lost vs threshold because his submerge was mvp againts my dreadnought :(

Conclusions: I think that typical UR version (I preffer with a splash of black for perish in sb) is a good option still, ugr and ur are both solid choices

[DArnold131]

Would it be a bad idea to cut Daze in order to add lightning bolt if I am anticipating a lot of aggressive decks at a tournament like Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins? Here's a list for reference.

5 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Trickbind
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds

[jazzykat]

I am including a list that was excelent in my last tournament and was similar to the tournament before that that I won.

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Firespout
2 Perish
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Pithing Needle

Lavamang mows down a lot of sad little creatures. Bolt stops Nacatyl. Play slowly and caustiously quite often as the control deck, but if you have a force and the T2 Dreadnought+Stifle don't be afraid to put your nuts on the table 1st. game. Second it is much more risky. Use your board to continue sweeping hoardes. REB's own Jace, let them pay 4 for your 1 cmc answer. You probably auto lose to a resolved Tombstalker unless you can burn+lavamang or double burn. Progenits gets owned by Perish. The 4 spell snare are for goyf, counterbalance, and QP, be careful about cutting any. People are already afraid of Daze some percentage ofyour opponents will try to play around it, don't worry about that you are getting tempo out of it.

You need to play really tight and you should be in just about any game. Don't be afraid to hold back and eat your opponent's manabae for lunch with stifles+wasteland especially 3 color decks. Strategicailly toast your opponent's hierarchs and good luck.

[Rood]

I know it's an online tournament but it was seven rounds master tourny so I figure it'd be worth sharing with you guys. I ended up at 5-1-1 after getting DQ'd second round for taking back my card on oponents side of table causing MWS to crash. I faced I think 9 blue aggro/control variants overall with this as my current list. Ended up taking 2nd and receiving 30$ credit on the site.

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/62881/legacy_t15.html#Dreadstill59838

I feel like the 3 Firespouts were too many, so I'm dropping it down to 2. Also 3 Spell pierce are going down to 2. Not sure what else im going to add in though. If I can go to the GP I'll be representing Dreadstill as well.

[sdematt]

I notice some interesting changes in the decklist, some of which seem really good, and some I'm questioning.

First, I love the fact you added Tropical Island. It bluffs you have Tarmogoyf threats, allows you to EE on 3 and use Firespout more effectively, etc. I might add a Tropical and keep the Sea so I can EE on 4, though.

You cut a Top, which I'm not sure is the right play. How have you been finding having only 2 Top?

What have you been using Echoing Truth for? I use my copies for Dredge mostly, but how have you been using it?

All in all, seems very solid. I like :D

-Matt

[Rood]

Echoing Truth is one of those cards I just find extremely good in alot of scenarios. Any permanent based control deck they pretty much make all of those MUs alot easier. Yeah the Trop is pretty cool I do enjoy pretending sometimes I'm a U/G deck. Though I'm not entirely sure yet but I might be cutting it for a U-Sea and trying out a few Duress in the sb. I've always ran 2 Tops it's always been the right number for me I find them pretty frequently.

[jazzykat]

I can't tell you why, but this deck is: "like good again". Seriously though, I have been playing my version rather often on MWS, and I just feel like it's good again. Sure zoo is tough, but I feel like I am walking past merfolk post board, bombing on green creatures (perish), and violating the "landstill" decks that decided standstil and manlands are bad.

Is anyone else seeing that this deck is back, or do I just get good results from it?

EDIT: In my last 2 tournaments (which were small): I won first; FBB Badlands, and second Survival of the Fittest.

[Muradin]

Marius Hausmann, Simon Ritzka and me have been playing the deck for 2 years now and we've always had good results with various lists of Dreadstill, 2x getting into top 64 of GP Madrid, Top 2ing Annecy, winning Local 30+ participants tournaments like shit and putting up several other good finishes, like winning a 150+ participants GP trial.

This deck is very strong and a good choice in the current metagame. I could now post my most recent list which has evolved beyond what we are discussing in this thread, but some of my newer additions to the decklist has yet to prove themselves in testing. So far the deck has become a bit more stable while being less vulnerable to some specific but common hate cards. I have lost some flexibility to make the deck more linear and developed a very strong sideboard. However I am still improving my mana base and will post it here when I am happy with the changes.

Considering Grim Lavamancer I don't feel he is that strong against Bant or Zoo. Sure he rocks Merfolk (tried im in the board for some time) but in general I don't think you should be running removal, such as Bolt in your maindeck. The biggest strength of this deck is that while any other control deck in the format runs removal and those cards are often suboptimal or even dead we run 4 Dreadnoughts while the rest of our deck is a blue shell geared towards winning attrition wars, counter battles and resolving our bombs (CB + Top, Standstill)...
Moreover we have a hell of a stable manabase while being very well capable of keeping our opponent off key land drops while generating tempo quite often.

[jazzykat]

Considering Grim Lavamancer I don't feel he is that strong against Bant or Zoo. Sure he rocks Merfolk (tried im in the board for some time) but in general I don't think you should be running removal, such as Bolt in your maindeck. The biggest strength of this deck is that while any other control deck in the format runs removal and those cards are often suboptimal or even dead we run 4 Dreadnoughts while the rest of our deck is a blue shell geared towards winning attrition wars, counter battles and resolving our bombs (CB + Top, Standstill)...
Moreover we have a hell of a stable manabase while being very well capable of keeping our opponent off key land drops while generating tempo quite often.


Regarding Lavamancer:
I disagree especially on the Bant front. So, they play probably Noble Hierarch, Quasali Pridemage, maybe Vendillion Clique, Rhox Warmonk, and Tarmogoyf.

He single handedly mows down: Half their army. Not to mention kills the biggest threat to your dreadnought and combined with a bolt get's rid of Rhox and Goyf (most of the time). I'm not really sure I can agree with you here. He may not be as big a beating like vs. Merfolk but he makes quite a mess for the Bant player.

He also sneaks in before standstill on turn 1 and makes your opponent's aether vials much less relevant.

Vs. zoo he sorta lack luster but he still get's: lavamancer (if yours is first), steppe lynx, PRIDE MAGE, and other creatures that are pumped by land types if they don't have them. He also trades 1:1 with removal.

He also trashes goblins.

I play lightning bolt for 2 reasons: 1 to make a second turn standstill almost always a reality even if on the draw and 2 so I don't always have to FoW a first turn nacatl or lackey. It also get's Hierarch which falls into line with jamming Bant on mana development.

2. I look at it like a counter spell that I can play after the fact. Them first turn lackey, me on my turn play fetch. Burn out their lackey before damage...

It also gets rid of a resolved Pridemage

Also, Lightning Bolt is rarely dead. It may not be the nut high in a control deck but 3 damage to the face from a control deck really does force opponents to reconsider if they want to leave blockers or can profitably attack without getting to low on life. It is also the only pseudo out we have MD to a resolved Jace 2.0.

I'm not saying I'm doing the right thing, all that I'm saying is that I've adjusted my list so that I am seeing optimal results for me.

Please post your list as I'm fascinated that you've also been able to improve on Dreadstill in a different direction.

[Ozymandias]

So I've picked up 90% of the cards for this deck in the last 2-3 weeks, and I have the following as the rough skeleton of Dreadstill:

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Volcanic Island
6 Blue fetches
4 Island

3 SDT
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Engineered Explosives

That's 52 cards. The remaining 8, I guess, are made up of a combination of
a) enhanced Naught package with Trickbind and maybe an extra Mage
b) Enhanced Mage package with +1 Trinket, Crypt, Academy Ruins, and maybe other cogs
c) green splash for goyf and board Kgrip and the like
d) other color splashes for like SB perish and 3 EE counters
e) Anti-aggro packages containing lavamancer, bolt, more EE, and the like.
f) supplemental counters in the MD-spellstutter, snare, pierce
g) Bigger focus on abusing special lands with Crucible/4 factory etc.

Is there anything I missed from or too quickly included in the above skeleton before I start tweaking the deck for my specific meta and tastes?

[Wasteland]

+4 spell snare - no way to go with less then the complete 4 of them in this deck.

[Rood]

So I've picked up 90% of the cards for this deck in the last 2-3 weeks, and I have the following as the rough skeleton of Dreadstill:

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Volcanic Island
6 Blue fetches
4 Island

3 SDT
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Engineered Explosives

That's 52 cards. The remaining 8, I guess, are made up of a combination of
a) enhanced Naught package with Trickbind and maybe an extra Mage
b) Enhanced Mage package with +1 Trinket, Crypt, Academy Ruins, and maybe other cogs
c) green splash for goyf and board Kgrip and the like
d) other color splashes for like SB perish and 3 EE counters
e) Anti-aggro packages containing lavamancer, bolt, more EE, and the like.
f) supplemental counters in the MD-spellstutter, snare, pierce
g) Bigger focus on abusing special lands with Crucible/4 factory etc.

Is there anything I missed from or too quickly included in the above skeleton before I start tweaking the deck for my specific meta and tastes?

Remaining 8 would be
1 Island 1 Factory
3 Spell Snare
1 Dreadnought
2 Trickbind OR 1 Trickbind/1 Crucible

[sdematt]

I've actually been a fan of a one-of Vision Charm for the last little while. It makes my Islands into other stuff so I can block against Merfolk, it allows me to cheat Nought, allows Nought to dodge removal, mills 4 (in one game, it was relevant :P), and lets you phase Jitte out. Example, you can kill the Zoo/Fish/whatever player with a Nought, but he has a active Jitte with no counters to gain life. You can always phase it out so he swings with no Jitte, then you swing next turn. Again, it's proved useful more than once.

But, I must agree on a 4-of suite of either Spell Pierce or Spell Snare, or a mix of both. Snare has it's uses, countering Counterbalance/the format, whereas Spell Pierce can really be a kick in the pants as it's not expected.

-Matt

[sclabman]

Spell Snare is always my preference because of the multitude of Qasali Pridemage. Also: Goyf... the deck already has so many other counters for whatever Non-creature spell you need countering.

[Mr. Forsberg]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have a few questions about the deck.

Has anyone considered splashing white for maindeck Swords to Plowshares instead of Lightning Bolts, and for good sideboard cards? If this has been considered, what are the reasons for sticking to the red splash?

Also, how do you guys like Trinket Mage? I feel that he is very slow, and almost never cast him. Most of the time he serves as Force of Will fodder, and I seem to sideboard him out almost every game.

[Yochanan]

Also, how do you guys like Trinket Mage? I feel that he is very slow, and almost never cast him. Most of the time he serves as Force of Will fodder, and I seem to sideboard him out almost every game.

I actually don't run Trinket Mage in my dreadstill unless I can use him as a toolbox for Relic, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Divining Top etc. He's not an auto-include for me by any means. However, almost 90% of dreadstill decks I've seen run him.

[sclabman]

I was playing Dreadstill last night on MWS and got repeatedly raped by a Ugb Landstill deck with Jace. It might have been really late and I may have been really tired, but: Every card in that deck seems to completely destroy our strategy. Pernicious deed gets thrown out and just waits for any permanent to land, Jace comes out and starts fatesealing, extirpate, diabolic edict, krosan grip, EE... The matchup seemed completely hopeless unless you can get a turn two Dreadnought with double force backup.

[Van Phanel]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have a few questions about the deck.

Has anyone considered splashing white for maindeck Swords to Plowshares instead of Lightning Bolts, and for good sideboard cards? If this has been considered, what are the reasons for sticking to the red splash?


Red Elemental Blast is the best colored sideboard card in the format, closely followed by Perish. With the White-Splash you'll be losing quite some games to Jace TMS. Bolt and REB help there. Also Firespout /Rolling Earthquake is definitely necessary against Merfolk. Which would be the good sideboard cards that you suggest?



Also, how do you guys like Trinket Mage? I feel that he is very slow, and almost never cast him. Most of the time he serves as Force of Will fodder, and I seem to sideboard him out almost every game.

You're doing something wrong, sorry. Trinket Mage is an additional way to get a Top and you always want a Top in play. Also the singleton EE maindeck is amazing and wouldn't be of much good without Trinket Mage. Preboard he also functions as Dreadnought 5-7 while giving you the option to board out some Noughts without losing the ability to find one fast if you need to finish the game. Add the bonus of getting graveyardremoval and you're set.


Also I felt that whenever I lose with Dreadstill, it is to a deck that plays manadenial. In the three big tournaments I Top8ed in May, I lost to Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Merfolk and New Horizons while winning 22 other matches (one actual draw, 4 IDs). Admittedly I lost one Merfolk matchup to not finding Stifle/Trickbind in 5 or finding Bolt/REB in 10 cards and not to manaproblems, but the other three losses were to their manadenial. In those tournaments I only won one match against a deck with manadenial (New Horizons) and drew another one against lands.

I don't actually believe that the manabase is as strong against landhate as people believe because of the common misconception that Basiclands help against manadenial. In fact playing more Basics makes it morelikely to get screwed by a single Waste or Stifle. However I don't see how we could improve that, because actually playing a mountain is out of the question.

[P-AiR]

Been reading quite a bit of this thread (over 100 pages) but the amount of information retained is questionable.

My current decklist looks similar to most of yours, I'm sure of it.

But please let me know if there's anything you would recommend me changing:



Creatures
3*Trinket Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
4*Brainstorm
3*Daze
4*Force of Will
4*Spell Snare
4*Stifle
2*Trickbind

Enchantments
3*Counterbalance
4*Standstill

Artifacts
1*Engineered Explosives
3*Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
4*Island
4*Mishra's Factory
4*Scalding Tarn
1*Underground Sea
3*Volcanic Island
3*Wasteland

Sideboard
3*Lightning Bolt
3*Red Elemental Blast
2*Firespout
2*Perish
1*Crucible of Worlds
1*Engineered Explosives
2*Relic of Progenitus
1*Tormod's Crypt


Seen a variation of 4 dazes 3 spell snares vs. 3 dazes 4 spell snares on the board, which do you recommend on an aggro-fested meta?

Tried Grim Lavamancers on MWS, had mixed feelings about it. Never tried pairing the Basilisk Collar with it yet but it's definitely a deadly option that from afar looks too slow to pull off.

1 Underground sea, is it enough for 2 perishes in the side? The sea looks like a great Wasteland target. Would you recommend a 2/2 split between the volcanic and underground? Or simply just knock off an island to add an additional sea?

[Julian23]

Most deck you'd want Perish against don't run Wastelands afaik - with the notable exception of New Horizons. Also, don't fetch it if you don't need it right away.

[Elvish-Champion]

Hey guys,

last two weekends I played with a list of "Muradin" in two different tournaments and did very well.
They were both with about 20-30 players and in the first, I did the first place, and in the second I did only place three because of a bad opponent score.

The list:

Main:

Lands//20
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures//7
3 Trinket Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells//33
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Perish
2 Submerge
1 Etched Oracle(Only fun card, maybe I should have played 1 Tormod’s Crypt instead of it)


The tournament with a 4-0-1 results:

Round 1:

Against BGw Rock:
Dice: I win and start
Game 1:
Very unspectacular game, I start with Seinsei’s, second Turn Dreadnought, Stifle and he surrenders after I forced his Swords to Plowshares.
- 3 Dreadnought
+ 2 Jace
+ 1 Etched Oracle


Game 2:

He starts with land and passes. I go Sensei’s, he land again and pass again. I do Counterbalance and he seemed to be very pissed. He tried Pernicious Deed, I try Counterbalance, hit a Wasteland and let the Deed resolve. In my upkeep I play Predict on Wasteland, put land and pass. He plays land and tries a harmonize. I decided to resolve it, I anticipated a Witness anyway(I already saw a green creature on his hand because he hold it not that good :D ).
He draws and passes. I looked into seinsei’s in upkeep and saw trinket mage the second Jace(already got one in Hand) and the one Dreadnought. I decided to draw the second Jace. I put Academy Ruins and passed. He tries to kill my CB I Stifle and he put Witness as well, I revealed the Mage and he passed. I played the first Jace and brainstormed. In his Turn he did Grip and I was that good that I didn’t put Trinket on top, well Counterbalance gone and he goes for a Deed. I let it resolve it wasn’t dangerous in this situation, he recognized it as well. : )
End of his turn I top, do predict on my Dreadnought and put it on top, because I saw a stifle and a Trickbind as well.
I Put Dreadnought and pass, in his turn he tries to kill it, I Trickbind, he tries Tarmogoyf, I Spell Snare and he harmonizes. I still didn’t had a Daze, what a bother. I let it resolve, I was sure he won’t can put a Deed without getting it back with Witness. I attack, Brainstorm with Jace and pass. He draws did Witness, I let resolve, he targets Deed, he tries Deed, I Force, Game!
1-0-0 2-0

Round 2:
Spring Tide
Dice: He wins
Only to warn you, this Match didn’t lasted more than 5 minutes.
Game 1 and 2:

He started with Ponder or Brainstorm, I always did first round Senseis, second round Counterbalance with Force Backup, he always surrendered, I didn’t know why, he still could have won via Cunning wish on Wipe Away or so.
2-0-0 4-0

Round 3:
Stupid Burn with Hellspark Elemental and Sulfuric Vortex in Main.

Game 1/2:
Also not very amazing, he is both games flooded, nearly kills me with Vortex, but I race faster with Dreadnought.
3-0-0 6-0

Round 4 against Marius Hausmann with Enchantress.
Dice: I win

Game 1:
Marius is a friend of me so we didn’t take this match so serious and talked a lot of shit while playing of course :P.
I luck the second Turn Dreadnought with Force and pitchcard backup, he surrenders.
- 3 Daze
+ 2 Jace
+ 1 Engineered Explosives


Game 2:

He started with Wild Growth many hate and I only put EE on 2 and 3 and jace.
I was outtapped, he put aura of silence and forgot it to use on my EE on 3. I blast away 1 City of solitude, 2 Choke and in my turn 3 more enchantments with the other Explosives. In his next 2 Turns he tries 1 Replenish each and one resolves, Game.

Game 3:

This game was funny because Predict won the game. There were many counters on my Side (2 Force 3 Spell Snare) and many Things on his side. He only had 1 card in hand remaining, a sterling grove.
I know, I could have won against a Moat which got discarded by my Predict, but the game would have taken longer if I didn’t discard it. In my Predict there were Dreadnought and Stifle, funny draw, and funny win :D .

4-0-0 8-1


Last Round against Survival:

Dice: I Win

Game 1:

I put Island go, he tries Windswept Heath, I stifle. Second Turn Dreadnought, He puts Forest Top, I hit, he looks in Top upkeep, no land and game.

Game 2:

I was a bit pissed in this game because he draw so fucking awesome that I couldn’t win. It was like, 2 Krosan Grip for my Balances, 2 Deeds, 3 Survivals and 2 Witnesses….

Game 3:

I started with Counterbalance second turn, he Krosan Grips and did a lot of Surival Witness and so on. I countered all Survivals and got beaten by the Witnesses of about 3 life until I found an EE to blast this and 2 Deeds away. I also got an Academy which won the game. He put a new Survival from the top, and a veteran Explorer. I put EE on top and blast his survival away. He attacks with his Explorer and tries to play Witness again. I got the Force and went on 1 life. Upkeep EE on top and blasted the Explorer away. If he would find a creature I would have lost this probably, but I was lucky and he put land. I did Trinket mage and look into top, Force Jace and Predict. I take the Jace and play him. He draw some lands, I put my Jace higher, we went in time and it was a draw with one card in his library left.

4-0-1 9-2-1


All in all I was very satisfied with the deck, it did well and especially Predict is a better card in many situations than Standstill.

[Ozymandias]

So I put this deck together, basically card-for-carding Simon Ritzka's 2nd place BoM list, except I cut a volc for Wasteland 4, and let me tell you this deck is the stones. It's probably the most complicated deck I have ever seen, if only because there's so much stuff to do

. I was wondering about some of the boarding. Generally, unless Naiught is excellent in the matchup (Like Fish or combo) I shave 1-2 trickbinds and a Naiught, and then for like Zoo I cut Forces and a Standtill, for Fish Standstill, and CB, for Dredge Standstill, and I bring in all the concievably good cards-and let me tell you, REB practically crushes the format. Any comments on what cards are good and bad in various matchups?

[Ozymandias]

Oh, also, postboard, on the draw, would you keep 2x waste, 2x stifle, 3x fetchland vs. Zoo on a mull to 6?

[Wasteland]

Ähm, mulligan?^^

[sdematt]

That's a pretty risky hand. It depends if you were playing first or not. If you were playing first, I'd keep it. If I were down a game, I might throw it away. But, Zoo is land light, so if you stifle their first fetch, waste their second land and their third land, you should be fine. Plus, Wild Nacatl isn't a threat if he's a 1/1 :P

-Matt

[keys]

Is no one playing the U/g/r version anymore? Back when I played this deck, Goyf fit too perfectly with the strategy to leave out. Naught and Standstill make him a 6/7 very often, and I always found Naught to be too fragile as the only threat. Jace helps I suppose.

[J.V.]

I'm removing this post. Sorry Rich.

[keys]

As long as you're running black, try some Dark Confidants? You would have to drop the Firespouts, but then just go full on Perish. You realize you're running green for 1 card right? May as well cut the single Grip.

Possibility:

-1 Trinket Mage
-1 Nought
-1 Trickbind
-1 Standstill
-1 Trop
+1 U Sea
+4 Dark Confidant

In the SB replace Firespout and Grip with a 3rd Perish and spot removal like Bolt or Smother.

[Ozymandias]

Here's some elaborated SB plans. Please correct them if I am wrong.

So, I did some testing vs. Zoo, and the games I won, I won one of three ways:

1) Forcing their one drop or stifling their fetch and then t2 Factory->Standstill, riding the CA to a win.
2) A quick dreadnought unanswered by path or Pridemage
3) the crazy LD hand when they don't have a 1-drop.

I find that counter-top is good, but I'm not sure what turn I should be aiming to set it up. Also Knight basically demands a Force or Dreadnought as my only MD answers.

Suggested board.

-4 Force of will
-2 Trickbind
-1 Dreadnought
-1 Daze
-1 Standstill

+3 Bolt
+2 Firespout
+2 Perish
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of Worlds.

Basically, I become "Ghetto landstill," and take out my card-disadvantage for removal. Not sure on Standstill as the final cut, but I never need early multiples.

Merfolk I have not done too much testing, but it seems like g1 you need a Nought early and then you can win. If you don't it's an uphill battle. Standstill is reasonable only if you have neutralized Vial. That said, my SB looks like:

-4 Standstill
-3 Counterbalace
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Daze

+3 Pyroblast
+3 Lightning Bolt
+2 Firespout
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of Worldsgood

There's nothing really scary at 2cc, and if they vial, Standstill and CB are worthless. In this matchup, I use my superior card selection to find my SB cards, and they still lack a real answer to Nought. Crucible is for their mana denial

Goblins:

+3 Lightning Bolt
+2 Firespout
+1 EE
+1 Crucible of worlds

-3 Counterbalance
-4 Spell Snare

Here snare is only meh , and they have a good anti-CB curve but they don't have man-lands to punish Standstill, and can't ever win a counter war over Vial, so I keep in my CA engine and just burn down their guys, resolve stifle-naught, and deal with Stingscourger vial stifle or force.

Dredge:

-4 Standstill
-3 Counterbalance


+3 GY hate
+2 Firespout
+1 Bollt
+1 EE

This matchup is about stopping their engine and tempoing with Naught, which means I cut the slower stuff and keep stuff that wills top them slow-dredging me out. I considered pyroblast, but I'm not sure what do cut and it only really hits breakthough.

I have no good idea how to board vs. storm. Right now my plan is -2 trickbind -1 Naught +1 EE +2 Firespout for decks with ETW, and for combo decks without etw and with blue, -1 EE, -2 Spell Snare, +3 pyroblast. Seems like with snare, daze, force, stifle, and cbtop, the matchup is solid unless I get roshamboed by a swarm of 1/1s.

I have no idea what to do vs. opposing countertop of NO or Thoptop flavors, New Horizons, Lands, or those new decks in the t8. Any help with those??

[Torgeist]

As was mentioned a few pages back, wouldn't vision charm be much better then trickbind in this deck? Why would you play trickbind when vision charm has a lot more functions in the deck besides the obvious sneaking a nought into play? It can dodge removal for your nought and come as a nasty surprise for any merfolk player that thinks his creatures are unblockable against your islands.

[sdematt]

Yes and no. Vision charm is great for phasing random crap out (phasing Jitte out, Folk not getting past you for a turn/screwing up their manabase for a turn, phasing in your Nought) and other tricks, but Trickbind can't be countered. When you play against this deck, you always wait for the Stifle so you can 2 for 1 the Dreadstill player. Trickbind punishes that, and allows you to guarantee a Dreadnought drop (pretty much).

I play 1 copy of Vision charm for I have 7 ways to cheat Nought, and it allows me to use my Stifles that much more freely on their Fetchlands and such. Dread-Stalker uses Vision charms for Mill and cheating, so you could probably go ahead and use Vision charm, but I'm thinking most are running it for the fact that it's a stifle that stops the action for the entire turn (ex. Removing Jitte counters for pump/lifegain).

-Matt

[Torgeist]

Sdematt: While that is true, I have never managed to actually benefit from trickbind's split second because everyone knows the deck plays them. Apart from that, I am really not that scared of my nought getting countered; it's removal that I'm worried about. I play a Ur list so nought is like a removal magnet and rarely manages to swing home. Solving this problem with a card that also cheats nought, as well as having a ton of other uses, seems like a better option then having a semi-uncounterable nought. I'll have to playtest it I guess.

[The Atog Lord]

Dear Tom,

If you request a decklist, and I send it to you, and give feedback for changing the list, that does not mean that I want to see that posted for everyone to see on The Source. I have to say that I am disappointed.

Rich

I advise against cutting all of your Force of Wills against Zoo. You really can't let Choke resolve, and sometimes stopping Pridemage or Price of Progress is necessary. I keep all four in, myself.

[Ozymandias]

In that case I guess I would cut a Naught (you still have 2 real and 3 virtual ones), the two remaining Daze (really harsh tempo loss), and a spell snare (probably easier to have a blue card than a blue mana early, and later on you will get to 5 mana. Maybe also bring in a crucible so I can really crush their mana base?

[The Atog Lord]

In that case I guess I would cut a Naught (you still have 2 real and 3 virtual ones), the two remaining Daze (really harsh tempo loss), and a spell snare (probably easier to have a blue card than a blue mana early, and later on you will get to 5 mana. Maybe also bring in a crucible so I can really crush their mana base?

Nine cards might be a few too many. I would be comfortable cutting 2 Dreadnoughts and Trickbinds, and I'm not overly keen on Daze in the matchup, especially on the draw. Crucible isn't going to be too exciting, as it is only good once the board has been essentially cleared.

[sclabman]

Here's the list I played today in Culver City:

2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
4x Standstill
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus

SB:
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Firespout
3x Red ELemental Blast
2x Perish
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Blood Moon

I beat Lands 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0 but lost to three different Zoo decks, regardless of all the hate I bring in. People are really good at playing around Perish, I'd rather them have been Deathmarks -- two mana cheaper and can hit white things too. Another tough thing about the Zoo matchup is if you lose game one you're going to have to be fighting against Krosan Grips and Red Elemental Blasts for two games to take the match. Merfolk was really easy both pre and post sideboard.

[owenzzz]

In response to above, I believe that the doppelganger's ability will resolve first by prioritizing this before stutter will counter the spell. Both ability is triggered by enter to battle and you can prioritize doppelganger's ability before stutter's ability.

can anyone confirm this. thanks!

[Ozymandias]

The list I ran in Culver City today:

2x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
4x Standstill
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives

SB:
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Firespout
3x Pyroblast
2x Perish
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives

I beat zoo, jank knights, and Vengevival and lost to Goblins (seems really tough if you don't stick a Naught but quick) and Emrakul Sneak Attack (My fault, tapped for SDT at the wrong time. I noticed a few things:

1: Engineered Explosives was extremely solid all day. I am thinking of cutting a Spell Snare to get 2 Maindeck.
2: Academy ruins would have been very helpful for getting back Gripped Dreadnoughts and SDT, and I am pretty sure that I can sew up a lot of matchups with Ruins recursion. I might cut a waste for it.
3: I kind of want to run Tolaria west because it finds LD, creatures, and removal for 1UU, but it seems like it will own you a lot of the time. Anyone ever try it?

I used every card in the sideboard, and actually Trickbinded a Jitte activation for the win which was cool.

It seems to me like in the Goblins matchup you are, surprisingly, the Beatdown, and that if the game goes long it is they that will inevitable run you over. In retrospect, trying to be Landstill postboard was a bad choice, and I should have boarded out Standstill and CB for my removal package and tried to Naught them out.

[Jackehehe]

I've been running a pretty standard deck list of dreadstill now for a while and I just recently played a local tournament with 40~ players involved and had I won my last game I would have made it to the top 8s. Rest assured, I am not a very merited player and dreadstill is my first proper legacy deck that I own and have grown really fond of!

Anyway, I've been pondering a few things and after speaking to some people on the above-mentioned tournament, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to not run standstill (maybe I am just crazy or more amateur than you and me thought?). I met this guy who had played dreadstill himself and it had come to him as a sort of revelation-like experience that standstill isnt actually that good of a card in this deck. I've often found myself thinking that standstill is a liability versus many other decks (I sideboard them out frequently) and, if I'm not wrong, it doesn't really help against decks that we already have troubles with. And above all, I do think it would be a relief not having to run Mishra's (making my decklist eligable for a fourth wasteland!)

I'm running a bit short on time here, I was thinking of adding black and running confidants instead, we all know how good confidants are together with the top?!

Any thoughts on my thoughts?

[Mr. Forsberg]

I've been running a pretty standard deck list of dreadstill now for a while and I just recently played a local tournament with 40~ players involved and had I won my last game I would have made it to the top 8s. Rest assured, I am not a very merited player and dreadstill is my first proper legacy deck that I own and have grown really fond of!

Anyway, I've been pondering a few things and after speaking to some people on the above-mentioned tournament, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to not run standstill (maybe I am just crazy or more amateur than you and me thought?). I met this guy who had played dreadstill himself and it had come to him as a sort of revelation-like experience that standstill isnt actually that good of a card in this deck. I've often found myself thinking that standstill is a liability versus many other decks (I sideboard them out frequently) and, if I'm not wrong, it doesn't really help against decks that we already have troubles with. And above all, I do think it would be a relief not having to run Mishra's (making my decklist eligable for a fourth wasteland!)

I'm running a bit short on time here, I was thinking of adding black and running confidants instead, we all know how good confidants are together with the top?!

Any thoughts on my thoughts?

I have been thining the exact same thing! I replaced Standstill with Predict in the maindeck a while ago, and they have been great for me. Sure, sometimes you would prefer having a Standstill, but against most of the harder matchups Predict is so much better. Also, I have really been disappointed with Mishra's Factory lately. I feel that they just don't do enough. Having one more Wasteland (and maybe one Academy Ruins) and two more colored mana sources feels really good.

Dark Confidant might be a really nice additions to the deck, although they won't be that good in the Zoo or Goblins matchups, which I have found to be really troublesome. I am going to try playing 3 Tombstalkers in a small local tournament tomorrow, because I feel that I need more big creatures against aggro decks (especially if they play Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile and QPM maindeck).

[Shimi]

I've been running a pretty standard deck list of dreadstill now for a while and I just recently played a local tournament with 40~ players involved and had I won my last game I would have made it to the top 8s. Rest assured, I am not a very merited player and dreadstill is my first proper legacy deck that I own and have grown really fond of!

Anyway, I've been pondering a few things and after speaking to some people on the above-mentioned tournament, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to not run standstill (maybe I am just crazy or more amateur than you and me thought?). I met this guy who had played dreadstill himself and it had come to him as a sort of revelation-like experience that standstill isnt actually that good of a card in this deck. I've often found myself thinking that standstill is a liability versus many other decks (I sideboard them out frequently) and, if I'm not wrong, it doesn't really help against decks that we already have troubles with. And above all, I do think it would be a relief not having to run Mishra's (making my decklist eligable for a fourth wasteland!)

I'm running a bit short on time here, I was thinking of adding black and running confidants instead, we all know how good confidants are together with the top?!

Any thoughts on my thoughts?

Seems a good idea to test at first sight.I would like to see some test , people are playing Black for SB Perish but then you need to cut Red or Green to maintain the stable manabase if you run MD Confidents.Confidents also eat some StP and other things that goes for your nought.

[whienot]

I've played the black splash with Confidant over Standstill a few times. It was good, but I believe it was better with Mystical Tutor in the format. Dreadstill just boned Reanimator whenever I played against it. If you're playing against Zoo most rounds, it isn't so hot. Bob makes your Firespouts worse and Firespout is a necessity.

As for black removal, Smother is better than Deathmark. Dreadstill is already littered with 1 drops for CB, and being a sorcery isn't so good.

[Jackehehe]

Thanks for the quick replies!

My main concern here is really about getting rid of standstills. I do not like them, and I think it could open up some possibilities, having 3-4 more spots in the deck and 4 new land spots (academy ruins is a nice goodie i guess, as someone mentioned above). I felt that Confidant would be the logical choice, so as to not lose card-engine.

It certainly is a problem, but I am not sure of what magnitude, that Confidant makes firespout less effective (I use 2 in main, quite aggro-oriented meta here in my town - lost 2 of my matches in earlier-mentioned tournament to goblins) but I do believe you can play around it. Another alternative would perhaps be having explosives replacing firespouts. After all, explosives are more versatile and controllable.

I can't help getting the feeling that we might be unto something here. It seems to me that there hasn't been too much discussion around confidant, and too much confidence in standstill, which forces us to play a sub-par playset (that being mishra's, In my humble opinion).

having black also opens up interesting side board opportunities

p.s if I add black I will most definately still have a red splash in my MD. if I cut the mishras it should be possible

[The Atog Lord]

I have to say that Standstill has been an excellent card for me, today and in times past. It is the most skill-intensive card in the deck, and its optimal application to a game may not be apparent at first glance. But with patience and practice, I suspect you will find that Standstill will hand you games that no other card would.

For example, on the draw against Zoo in Legacy Worlds, I Mulligan to five cards. But I have a second turn Standstill to answer my opponent's empty board after using Force of Will against his threat. He cracks it with Wild Nacatyl, only to see my playing a Top, a Factory, and another Standstill on my turn. I end up winning through the large pile of card advantage created by this setup.

I have played with 3 and 4 Standstills before, and believe the fourth Standstill is a metagame call. But playing Zero will hinder the deck too much, as the ability to drop a Standstill is one of the most powerful plays the deck has. And as for Mishra's Factory, I have been nothing but impressed with the card. Even outside the context of Standstill, it enables the deck to have an efficient clock even without a Dreadnought arriving.

[Rood]

If you play Confidant you play him alongside Standstill not cut SS for him. Playing a 3/3 split between Confidants and Standstill I think is correct if you want to go down that route. You could also SB 1 Confidant for the matchups that rely on Standstill heavily and have 4 solid draw engine cards MD whereas their Standstills will be more or less useless. But I think Standstill is not up for discussion of cutting, it does way too much for this deck.

[sdematt]

@ Poster hating on Standstill:

Standstill is great in a variety of matches, but is also one of the things that needs to be sided out in others. Example, Vial-based decks happen to be great against Standstill (Goblins, Fish) so I tend to side them out in those matches.

The catch side to this is that in the matches were it shines, it usually gets you out of tough situations by filling your hand with cards. Your opponent will definitely play tighter once he's set off a Standstill, as those three cards could be counters to his key threats. It's like the whole "Once you see a Daze, you always play around it." Such is the same with Standstill. It provides massive card advantage, and most of the time, you're the one getting that advantage.

I'm a fan of 3-4 of them. 4 Is nice, but if you needed another EE or something, I wouldn't be devastated in cutting the 4th. I usually play the 4th, or a Vision Charm.

Also, you should check out the "Dreadstalker" thread if you're interested on adding Tombstalkers to the deck. It's a pretty cool design.


Regards,
-Matt

[Jackehehe]

@ Poster hating on Standstill:

Standstill is great in a variety of matches, but is also one of the things that needs to be sided out in others. Example, Vial-based decks happen to be great against Standstill (Goblins, Fish) so I tend to side them out in those matches.

The catch side to this is that in the matches were it shines, it usually gets you out of tough situations by filling your hand with cards. Your opponent will definitely play tighter once he's set off a Standstill, as those three cards could be counters to his key threats. It's like the whole "Once you see a Daze, you always play around it." Such is the same with Standstill. It provides massive card advantage, and most of the time, you're the one getting that advantage.

I'm a fan of 3-4 of them. 4 Is nice, but if you needed another EE or something, I wouldn't be devastated in cutting the 4th. I usually play the 4th, or a Vision Charm.

Also, you should check out the "Dreadstalker" thread if you're interested on adding Tombstalkers to the deck. It's a pretty cool design.


Regards,
-Matt

Thanks for the reply. I think I will try confidants in MD regardless, and ditch standstills which enables me to go for a 4th wastelands and maybe academy ruins as well.

Both confidant and standstill are somewhat unreliable draw engines (confidant dies easily, standstill is situational). I do think confidant is in favour here because if confidant is to be stopped, the opponent has to waste a removal or a counter (which then opens up for dreadnought) while standstill is often made ineffective by the virtue of the MU and not because of any specific action taken by the opponent.

In general, I see confidant as a bigger threat than standstill, which forces the opponent to deal with him. I realize I might be rambling nonsense here, what im trying to say is that I simply think, theoretically, that dark confidant is more interesting and that he is a much bigger threat than standstill and therefore, maybe a better card.

Maybe I should just have this discussion in the dreadstalker thread? :)

[keys]

The best way to run Confidant is just take Tim Hunt's gencon list from 2009 and make a few adjustments: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28699

Replace Sower with Trinket Mage, then take out the removal for Naughts and EEs.

[sdematt]

I see your point in saying that Confidant is Force-bait, but then, in a way, why not just play Tarmogoyf and have him get countered if you don't plan to use him at all? Obviously, you're trying to get all your cards to stick, so I'd say try to avoid thinking of cards as Force-bait :D

Confidant is good, especially with Top on board, because it allows you to crush your opponent with card advantage. In the end, you do get more cards out of the Confidant, but they can't actually deal with the Standstill. They can try to Stifle it (I've had people try, it's great), but mainly, it causes people to slow-play around it. Standstill is not only a draw engine, it's a stall tactic. Most people will be hesitant to break the Standstill, whereas with Dark Confidant, they can play as they please, but you get more cards. Good opponents will usually crack Standstill right away, which is fine: You've just Recalled. Hooray! If you wait, every turn they don't play something is you essentially Time Walking another turn. Usually, you have Manlands, Top, or something on board, and they won't. Obviously, don't play it with Vial onboard, but against most decks, they will crack it for you eventually.

I've cracked my own Standstill before, but I won those games anyway. It was usually my hand was so full of gas anyway, I win no matter what (and I did). I played first against I don't know what, but I ended up laying down double Dreadnought with Force, Force, Daze, Spell Pierce backup with mana to spare. Suffice to say, games were won, dreams were crushed, children cried in the streets.

I think you should give Standstill a chance, but as we've said, Confidant is a good choice as well.

-Matt

[FoolofaTook]

Is no one playing the U/g/r version anymore? Back when I played this deck, Goyf fit too perfectly with the strategy to leave out. Naught and Standstill make him a 6/7 very often, and I always found Naught to be too fragile as the only threat. Jace helps I suppose.

I'm trying a Ugr version aimed at shutting down Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk and letting some of the otherarchetypes sort themselves out against the overall versatility of the deck. I'm going just 7 counters main and relying on the sideboard for when I need more.

Lands
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island

Creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought

Counters
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Stifle

Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Firespout
2x Engineered Explosives

Card Quality
4x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3x Counterbalance
3x Standstill

Sideboard
4x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Spell Pierce
2x Krosan Grip
1x Counterbalance

I'm using the heavy main deck red splash and Tarmogoyf because I was not happy with how the deck was performing on the days when the meta is heavy Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. That's the side of the triangle that gives me the most trouble these days, lots of creatures and an effective gameplan to win early off of them. I went down to 3 Standstill because there are a bunch of matchups I don't want it in and that lead to the decision to go down to 3 Mishras. That and Zoo killing Mishra's on sight and Merfolk island-walking around them. The 4 bolts main deck are for Goblin Lackey, Wild Nacatl, Weathered Wayfarer, Cursecatcher, Birds of Paradise, Qasali Pridemage, Steppe Lynx, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Stoneforge Mystic, etc. My meta is full of little creatures that will kill you if you let them stick around a turn or two. I dropped the Trinket Mages because they just don't work all that well with Firespout main deck and with no equipment possibilities I don't like them in this meta.

[TOGITwill]

If you're playing a red splash in this deck, especially one geared against tribal aggro, IMO you're just doing it wrong if there's no Grim Lavamancer. This guy is just silly in the deck. It even gives you another early threat under standstill. It also allows you to run basilisk collar out of the board for him to deal with bigger threats in other decks like a Tombstalker. Furthermore, no Trinket Mage? It's finding you anything that you really want in the deck, artifact-wise. EE, Top, Dreadnought, or the Collar if you choose to play it.

This deck shouldn't need mindbreak trap in the board. If you aren't bending combo over a table and making it your girlfriend on a regular basis, I don't know what you're doing. Those three slots could be much better cards for your deck. You already have x4 Stifle and FoW, x3 Daze, AND the counterbalance package. And that's in the main alone. Post board you're bringing in Spell Pierce would should be more than enough. Combo should be a cakewalk with this deck.

[FoolofaTook]

If you're playing a red splash in this deck, especially one geared against tribal aggro, IMO you're just doing it wrong if there's no Grim Lavamancer. This guy is just silly in the deck. It even gives you another early threat under standstill. It also allows you to run basilisk collar out of the board for him to deal with bigger threats in other decks like a Tombstalker. Furthermore, no Trinket Mage? It's finding you anything that you really want in the deck, artifact-wise. EE, Top, Dreadnought, or the Collar if you choose to play it.

This deck shouldn't need mindbreak trap in the board. If you aren't bending combo over a table and making it your girlfriend on a regular basis, I don't know what you're doing. Those three slots could be much better cards for your deck. You already have x4 Stifle and FoW, x3 Daze, AND the counterbalance package. And that's in the main alone. Post board you're bringing in Spell Pierce would should be more than enough. Combo should be a cakewalk with this deck.

Spell Pierce is mainly for games when I'm playing second, as I don't like Daze as much in that situation and I'm playing bolts to handle early creatures. I also add it in when Standstill looks weak in the matchup, like against Aether Vial and other manlands. I'll put it in against combo because it's nice there, but as you point out the deck already has combo fairly well managed. Mindbreak trap comes in against storm combo because it's very useful there, but where it shines is against things like Aluren that aren't handled all that well by Counterbalance, since it's easy to go get stuff back out of the yard instantly at a later point, against uncounterable stuff as a hard cast later in the game and against mid-range control generally and mid-range countrol with counters in particular, hardcast again. Exiling a spell in the middle of a combo sequence is often very different than countering it.

You can make an argument for other creature layouts. This is the one I'm trying now: Firespout with no creatures that die to it in the deck.

[Muradin]

So for now I have settled on two different lists of this deck, one of them being basically the deck played by Van Phanel:


3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Perish



First of all I point out what are the advantages of the usual Dreadstill builds:

- Mishra's Factory was good in most control matchups and provided another kill condition.
- Standstill draws 1 more card than Predict and is therefore the more powerful card draw effect.
- 4 basic lands

For me the weak points of regular Dreadstill lists are the following:

- Loses against resolved big creatures, especially if paired with Wastelands (Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary)
- Loses against Aether Vial
- Manabase issues (14 blue sources, only 3 Wastelands)

I tried to solve those issues by making some changes. First of all I removed Standstill (and consequently Mishra's Factory) and afilled those 8 slots again with the following after trying several configurations:

3 Predict
2 Jace
blue lands #15 and 16
4th Wasteland

This makes the mana denial plan of the deck slightly better and gives us 16 blue sources which is pretty stable and makes you mulligan less frequently. Furthermore, by taking out Standstill the deck is less vulnerable to Aether Vial, as your draw engine still works if they get one and thus can help you to find a Nought or EE quickly. The changes simply give you the possibility to run very good cards as a 4 off, namely: Wasteland and Counterbalance.
This adds a lot of consistency to your draws.

Then I tried every kind of black and red removal and ultimately came to the conclusion that Swords to Plowshares is probably worth splashing for in the sideboard, which requires you to bring in a basic Plains however. Swords + Perish + Firespout + EE (+Jace) is actually a combination of removal that gets rid of nearly everything one could think of. I've tried several other ideas, like Etched Oracle +Academy Ruins (control matchups, tech from ITF) or running Pithing Needle but I've come to this list now that I am pretty happy with so far:

Decklist:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland
3 Island

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Jace, the mind Sculptor
3 Predict
2 Trickbind

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Jace, the mind Sculptor / 1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares


After playtesting many games I finally came to understand why Roodmistah has been playing 3 instead of 2 EE in his builds. With proper sideboarding this sideboard gives you exactly as many cards to board in as you want to take out in 90% of all matchups. So far testing (and I mean I really did quite some of it) has shown that this build has a ton of good matchups, however I still have problems with some special decks.

- Goblins as Mono R is pretty good, and VS Rb builds its roughly even, but Rg or Rbg builds featuring Krosan Grip, Warren Weirdings and some REB's, combined with their fast clock and good ability to recover after sweepers has proven to be very unfavorable. Any ideas?

- UGr / UBr Faeries and in general decks running Spellstutter Sprite, a stable manabase, landdestruction and Powerful threats (Bitterblossom, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Jace2.0) backed up with some tempo are problematic. This is because Spellstutter Sprite trumps your removal and gives them CA resulting in some pesky 1/1 flying Faeries that prevent you from dropping Jace.

- Enchantress: If you know what they are playing you basically win as you can mull into a quick nought or set up a CB + Top lock with 3 and 4 on top and Jace them to death after some time. If you don't however, your average hand gets pwned by them pretty easily.

- Landstill in general is roughly even while it becomes usually better postboard but builds featuring 3 Decree of Justice are just a pain in the ass to play against as they can manage easily to kill all of your win options by killing your jaces with soldier tokens. This is a matchup that gets trumped by Etched Oracle.

Edit: Anyone knows a good site that teaches english punctuation rules? In school I learned: "In case of doubt just leave it out", so I am not very confident about my skills regarding this.

[Rood]

Muradin while I agree Jace is definetally worth of considering to include in Dreadstill I think the main issue was that Daze holds him back greatly. To run a 4 drop and setting yourself back a turn in Lands it makes it near impossible to consistently rely on Jace. Bant Aggro can get away with it because they run Noble Heirarch to make up for the tempo loss. I think that perhaps it might be worth it to consider Spell Pierce maindeck alongside Spell Snare if you want to go the 2-3 Jace route. I still would run Standstill however, IMO there are no cards that can ever take that slot.

Something like this if you wanted Swords there.

// Lands
3 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [U] Tundra
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TSP] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [JGC] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JGC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout

Also, on another note...I think I might be running the 4th CB/3rd Top in my sb for Ur Dreadstill...there's alot of matchups where you just need to land that card. I feel postboard increasing it to 4x/3x might be the best call.

[BKclassic]

Well here is the list I am running:

3 Factory
3 Waste
6 Fetch
3 Volc
1 Trop
1 Sea
4 Island

4 Naught
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill

2 Jace

SB
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
2 Perish
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds

-Mishra's Factory is awesome. Its not too hard to get people to turn their Krosan Grips on them for some reason. Also, against control, having only 3 threats that don't 2 for 1 yourself is hopeless. Having extra blockers around is great.

-Jace maindeck is sick, since it is another threat against control and answers harder to deal with cards like Tombstalker and Knight of the Reliquary. Cutting down to 2 Daze hasn't given me any problems.

-I don't think cutting Daze for Spell Pierce is reasonable. It gives you a critically low amount of 2 drops for Counterbalance, especially for matchups where you want to board out Standstill but leave Counterbalance in.

-Splashing white for Swords to Plowshares just doesn't seem good to me, Lightning Bolt being my 1cc removal of choice. This mainly has to due with Lightning Bolt being playable with Volcanic Island. Having to set up Tundra and Volcanic Island against Merfolk leaves you wide open to Wasteland, using the same Volcanic Island to play REB, Bolt and Spout is going to win you games. Also, I don't think there are many cards that Swords is needed for. The biggest problems are Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, and Knight of the Reliquary. The games where I can't counter these cards or control them with EE, I can usually just blank them by attacking with Dreadnoughts, and Lightning Bolt can help there by being aimed at the head. Postboard, having 2 Perish, 2 EE, and 2 Jace postboard makes it easy. A 3 Tundra white splash involving Meddling Mage and Stp would intrigue me though. Maybe Rhox War Monk in the SB to combat aggro?

[sdematt]

I find my worst matchup to be against Thopters. Sometimes, I'm able to get the nuts or grind them out if I get counters first, but I can't deal with a resolved Jace (save by attacking him) or a resolved Moat. At least I can EE on 3 for Bridge, but resolved Moat makes me cry.

Just wondering what I can do about the resolved Moat dealy :P

For now, I'm playing Simon's list with a few minor alterations, and for the most part, it plays exactly how I want it to. I'm playing 4 MD spell pierce though, with no Spell Snare. It's helped too many times against non-creature threats (Jace, Moat, Fireblast, Edicts, Path, etc.). I might run a 2/3 split and take out a Daze, but I'll see how the matchups go tonight at my local Legacy.

-Matt

[FoolofaTook]

I find my worst matchup to be against Thopters. Sometimes, I'm able to get the nuts or grind them out if I get counters first, but I can't deal with a resolved Jace (save by attacking him) or a resolved Moat. At least I can EE on 3 for Bridge, but resolved Moat makes me cry.

Just wondering what I can do about the resolved Moat dealy :P

For now, I'm playing Simon's list with a few minor alterations, and for the most part, it plays exactly how I want it to. I'm playing 4 MD spell pierce though, with no Spell Snare. It's helped too many times against non-creature threats (Jace, Moat, Fireblast, Edicts, Path, etc.). I might run a 2/3 split and take out a Daze, but I'll see how the matchups go tonight at my local Legacy.

-Matt

Moat is a miserable card to have to deal with. When it lands game one it's game over. Game two we have grips in the sideboard for the green splash and that gives us a chance but it's just a chance. The Thopter matchup is highly unfavorable at this point because they play Moat, StP, CBTop and enough counters to make our 2-for-1 highly unreliable. Having a single hard to remove card shut down our entire attack is pretty devastating.

[The Atog Lord]

If Moat arrives, Jace them out. Simple.

[FoolofaTook]

If Moat arrives, Jace them out. Simple.

Thopters kill Jace easily and quickly and we have no blockers. If we have EE we can try to kill the foundry but Firespout doesn't work because they just make more Thopters in our EoT and over-run.

[sdematt]

Jace doesn't kill the turn he lands (they can also swarm him/play their own Jace, which kills ours), and I don't play Jace.

I have about a 50/50 win ratio against Thopters, but if they land the Moat it's pretty brutal. I'd love to have Echoing Truth/Wipe away. I don't splash Green, so no Grip for me. The black splash is wonderful for Perish (seems more relevant with the Bant, Zoo, and such running around) and the Red is the nuts against Folk.


-Matt

[dsck]

I have been playing with:
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

in maindeck instead of:
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare

All nasty stuff from Moat/NO/Jace2 is easier to deal with. From sb I bring vs Zoo and decks that rely PTE/STP a card called Not of this World, it has been very successful so far.

[sdematt]

I've been trying out "Not of this World" as well. The only problem is that it's very narrow, it's only for Naught protection. Is it good? Yes, it's hard to CB against, and most decks won't have an answer against it. But, like I said, it might be a good sideboard card. I'm trying it out tonight.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

Did you have Not of This World in your build, Matt? I don't think it got used at all when I "Snuffed" your Dreadnaught repeatedly :-)

It just seems...terrible. Even as a sideboard card. Better to go with Dispel.

[sdematt]

Nah, it's too narrow. Although it's super secret tech, I'd rather have a multipurpose card.

So I'll write a tournament report now. Wewt.



So, I placed 1st at my local Legacy tournament playing my list of Dreadstill. The list is as follows:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

1 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Perish
2 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus


Round 1: Aaron with teched out Enchantress.

Aaron is a good guy, I've known him for a while. But, his build of Enchantress is slightly different, running Ghostly prisons, Disenchant, and Seal of Cleansings in the 75. He knew I was coming, so to speak.

Game 1: I win the die roll, and open a hand of Island, Fetch, Standstill, Stifle, Dreadnought, Force, Spell Pierce. Keep! I go for the fast Dreadnought and counter something relevant.

Board in: 1 EE.
Board out: 1 Standstill

Game 2: A Long game where I get Counter-Top down and get rid of a bunch of his relevant threats. I lay down 2 Noughts, but he ends up drawing the nuts like Grip. I have to counter the 2 Chokes he plays, and he ends up O-ringing my Counterbalance. He gets/lands a Choke, but I EE on three. Wewt. But, as I'm tapped out after the massive counter-war, he top decks Replenish. Ouch. I didn't bring in the grave hate since I figured I wouldn't need it.

In: 2 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Tormod's Crypt
Out: 3 Counterbalance

Game 3: I go first and we play a controlling game, with a t1 Crypt on board for all that nasty stuff I've countered. He plays Enchantresses, but I keep his Wild Growths off the board and deny him mana. He kills my Dreadnought (Grip), but I get there with a Trinket Mage, and 2 Mishra's Factories. Wewt. He tries to Replenish, but I Tormod's Crypt. He tries to respond with Grip, but it doesn't matter. I had Force in hand to counter Replenish, anyway.

2-1 Games, 1-0 Matches

Round 2: Bryn with Mud Stax

Game 1: I win the roll and play an island. He turbos into Trinishpere, but I daze it. I relay the island, and pass to having a Crucible played. I Spell Pierce it. Eventually, the board position looks like:

Him: Winter Orb, Rishadan Port, Smokestack on 1, Lodestone Golem, a ton of tapped out lands, Karn.

I managed to wait and do my Stifle Nought, and I swing into Karn with Nought and Factory. I do exactly lethal (6).

In: 2 Firespout, 3 Lightning Bolt, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus.
Out: 3 Counterbalance, 4 Standstill, 1 Random.

Game 2: First turn Metalworker, I allow. I lay a land, with Top. He reveals 4 artifacts and lays out Crucible, Smokestack, and something else. I wait a turn, he ramps the Stack, I scoop.

Game 3: We get to the point where he's got multiple Chalices, a board full of artifacts etc. I've got Nought and multiple Factories, but he has Ensnaring Bridge, Lodestone Golem, the works. We go to time and he concedes to me, as I have a better record.

4-2 Games, 2-0 Matches

Round 3: Matt with Saito's Merfolk

Game 1: I win the die roll, and play Island. He plays a fetch, and passes. I lay a Fetch, and fetch. He fetches in response. He lays Standstill, and he gets Mutavault online. I waste his Muta, and proceed to lay down 2 Factories. He laughs at the fact I'm winning under Standstill, and he cracks his own Standstill for Cursecatcher. I don't counter it, and I manage to Stifle Nought him.


Board in: 2 Firespout, 3 Lightning Bolt, 3 REB, 1 Pyroblast
Board out: 4 Standstill, 3 Counterbalance, 2 Random

Game 2: He goes first, and I waste, Stifle, and plunder my way through the first few turns. He has basically nothing on board, and I'm slowly building up lands. I set an EE to 2, and he runs out a Coralhelm commander. I REB. He gets a really annoying Cursecatcher down. I let him build up, and I tap out for Firespout. He tries to Daze, I daze. So, he cracks Catcher. Fine. He lays out 2 Reejeries. I Firespout again. He cries. He puts me to one with a Lord on board, but I kill it. My hand is: Vision Charm, Trickbind, Spell Pierce. I have Nought, tapped Factory, and Tricket Mage. If he drew any Merfolk, he says he could have won by tapping my Trinket and going for lethal. I said a Lord of Atlantis works wonders, too. He doesn't draw one off the top, he draws a land. I reveal my hand and state my answers.

"Vision Charm turns Islands into Mountains, you don't Islandwalk over me. I trickbind the tap ability, then proceed to murder you with Dreadnought."

He laughed, and it was good fun. The other match was still going, so we hung out a bit. R/W goblins won at the other table, so we had to face off. But, we had more points, so we drew and I took home 15 packs of M11 for my troubles.

6-2 Games, 3-0 Matches

Goodstuffs: I love swinging with a 12/12. It brings out the inner Timmy. Also, I didn't face against Zoo, as I was slightly worried, but I figured I still could have won. I'm liking the decklists, and I'm finding I love Spell Pierce more and more. Yes, I did wish at times it was Spell Snare, or counter any spell or pay 2, but it hoses the stuff that I find most worrisome: Moat, Jace, etc. It makes those guys cost 6, which they usually don't want to wait for when I've got the Nought down.

Vision Charm has saved my ass in testing, and possibly today. I've phased the Nought out many times, whether it be during casting or when it's already in play. It allows me to use my Stifles a little more loosely, for stuff like Fetchlands, Wastelands, etc. I'm really liking the card, and it taking away Islandwalk for Merfolk has saved my ass. Even just running the one copy has been great for me. I don't I'd like more, but perhaps in a different build more would be better. Right now? 1 seems tech.

Not so good stuffs: When I played against the Goblins, I felt like maybe some BEB were needed, but it was also a weird build. Swords and Disenchants, just for me. Hooray....

I'll test against Gobbos a bit more. Enchantress seemed to be a rough matchup if they get down a Grass or something early, and I don't have the mana to get there. Choke is really good against us, as is Seal of Cleansing. I would suggest if you're playing against Enchantress, keep mana open/counters open for shenanigans like that.

The other Dreadstill player suggested Rack and Ruin and H. Recall for the board in my meta, which may be the right call, as we have 4/15 people who have Stax built. Seems like a meta call, but I may switch it up.

-------------------------

All in all, I liked playing the deck, and there were very few times were I felt totally helpless (only as a creature based deck that attacks versus a Stax deck, that hurts). Tell me what you guys think of the report, and ask any questions!

-Matt

[Muradin]

I took the exact list I posted to the German Legacy Championship with 200+ participants yesterday and finished first going 8-1 with tiebreakers and opponent score from hell.

My matchups were the following:
Staxx 2-0
Uw Merfolk 2-0
Canadian Threshold 2-0
Ub Merfolk 2-1
Canadian Threshold 1-2 (wrong sideboarding on my part and an insane amount of hate coming out of his board)
Rb Goblins 2-0
Mono U Merfolk 2-1
GW Aggro 2-0
Bant Loam/Aggro (with KotR, Jace, Loam and Explosives) 2-0

Especially this last match has shown me how strong the deck is in the current metagame:
G1: I open on Fetch->Island go. Opponent goes Tropical, Top go.
I waste his Tropical. Opponent tries to fetch, I stifle, he forces, I daze and the game is over as he doesn’t have any other lands and quickly gets trashed by a nought.
G2: Opponent now has Grip, STOP, Explosives, Maze of Ith (to be fetched with KotR) and eventually Path to Exile. I mull to 6 on the draw into: 2 Island, 2 Fetchlands, Brainstorm, Spell Snare. My opponent keeps his 7 and starts strong on top, then Goyf (Spell Snare) followed by 2 Knight of the Reliquary while I draw into 2 more lands and Brainstorm into 2 more lands and a Counterbalance which I immediately drop.(getting rid of 2 lands)
My Counterbalance blind flips on all of his cards miss, but eventually I draw a predict and predict away a Dreadnought(which I revealed via CB for his knight) getting me a Force + blue card for his 2nd knight. He beats me with his first knight, drops a Loam, untaps it with Maze of Ith after damage and searches for Academy Ruins to go with his Engineered Explosives. I get a Brainstorm of the top finally getting rid of some lands from my hand and while I am still completely flooded I can drop Jace and bounce his KotR. He drops it again and in the end I find a STOP for his Knight, get card advantage on him with Predict, find a Top to go with my CB and Jace him to Death while stifling / hitting with counterbalance his attempts to blow up my Counterbalance lock with Explosives + Academy Ruins.

I was really pleased how I could come back in a pretty difficult matchup after a mulligan to 6 and getting pretty unfortunate draws.

I was happy I had Predict instead of Standstill all day long and it worked very well whereas Standstill would have been a liability in half of my matchups. Swords to Plowshares out of the board were awesome hitting exactly what they are meant to hit (Lackey, KotR, Tombstalker, leveled Coralhelm Commander, Tarmogoyf, Vengevine and everything Bolt kills as well of course) and will definitely stay. Counterbalance and Dreadnought were MVP's all day long, doing what they are supposed to do.

Jace obviously got boarded out a lot as I played against aggro decks a lot, but won the matchups he was supposed to win on his own (Bant, Staxx). I didn't have to play against 4 color CB control, Landstill, Thopters or typical NOBant and those are the matchups where he shines.

My manabase was rock solid all day long giving me all the colors even if I faced 9/9 rounds decks with 4 Wastelands. All my Merfolk opponents got pretty strong draws and in the 9 games I played in this matchup my opponent only once didn't have a turn 1 Aether Vial.

However I have to admit that my deck was actually not as good as I expected and only worked in a disappointing way in several games. I could still win the tournament and now I know the weak points of my deck and will adjust it accordingly. Thank you all for posting your lists and especially your criticism, it helps me a lot to tweak and improve this a bit more.

I actually feel that the real strength of Dreadstill is its stronger game against aggro and tribal decks like Goblins and Merfolk compared to most other counterbalance variants where I couldn't achieve any similar matchup percentages against those archetypes in testing, no matter how many War Monks, Firespouts and Goyfs I added. Here you gotta draw Dreadnought/Trinket Mage + Stifle effect which makes it inconsistent, but when you do (and you got plenty of tools to delay them and to protect it once it resolved) you win most of the time. I have played in a lot of tournaments with Dreadstill already but especially this one has shown me again why Dreadnoughts are the way to go and not Goyfs.

Dreadstill gives you a fuck ton of random wins with:
1. Dreadnought + Stifle
2. Stifle + Waste
3. CB + Top

More importantly we achieve to play all of this while having a minimum of dead/bad cards in every matchup:
1. Control matchups: here Dreadnought is bad most of the time. This is a total of 4 cards while other counterbalance decks that are tweaked towards beating aggro got 4 STOP, 3 Firespout, +X
2. Aggro matchups: We manage to turn this matchup into a coinflip preboard by running 4 cards (Dreadnought) and the rest of the deck is simply a blue control shell and thus pretty strong in any control matchup for not having many dead cards here. Postboard everyonce has the possibility to use his splash of choice to improve those matchups till they are favorable.
3. Combo matchups: we all know that Dreadstill is one of the best decks you can play in those ones.

EDIT: Link to the top 8 decklists from the tournament: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=5551

[sdematt]

I'm assuming you took the Predict list to the tournament? Seems interesting. I'll give it a try and post my results on here. I like Swords out of the board, it seems hot.

Did you end up using the Perish very often. If so, when, and how successful was it?

-Matt

[P-AiR]

Unlike most of you who have been posting successful results with your Dreadstill or Dreadict decks. I on the other hand, went 1-4 at my local Legacy tournament of about 40 people.

I was 25th of 40.

Decklist:
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Perish
2 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Unfortunately, I didn't take down the details of the matches.

Round 1: Steven with Burn. (2-1)
Game 1: Second turn Stifle Naught seals the game
Game 2: Grips + fast burn
Game 3: Early Counter top stopped all his burns and Dreadnought finished

Round 2: David with RG Goblins. (1-2)
Game 1: Forced his first turn lackey and he scoops after I drop a Dreadnaught on my turn.
Game 2: Drops a second Lackey after I Force the first one. Pays the echo cost for his Mogg War Marhals + Goblin Chieftains = gg.
Game 3: Misplay on my part. Kept a hand with no force but a bolt in hand for the Lackey. He drops an Aether vial which seals the game with multiples of warchiefs and ringleaders.

Round 3: Tom with G/W Survival. (1-2)
Game 1: Second turn Dreadnaught and dazed his swords which then he scoops.
Game 2: Had countertop online but couldn't stop the reoccuring of Vengevine + Knight of the Reliquary
Game 3: Had firespouts in hand but even then Knights of the Reliquary were too big later in the game with fetches in his grave. Really missed regular counterspells in this game instead of spell snares or dazes.

Round 4: Wilken with GBW Rock. (0-2)
Game 1: First turn Thoughtseize followed by Hym + Hynptoc Specter hurts.
Game 2: Long drawn out battle which led to the nullification of my Dreadnaught since he kept a hand full of Paths, Grips etc.

Round 5: David with 43 Lands. (1-2)
Game 1: Second turn Dreadnaught = win.
Game 2: Relic proved to slow him down quite a bit but eventually he gets his lock of Crucible + Wasteland + Port
Game 3: Grip + Loam + Wasteland + Port lock.

Round 6: Bye

A bit disappointed because I had high hopes for this deck. But it proves that I still have much to learn about this deck. Such as when to mull, what I should keep with which opponent, and how to sideboard.

Was very bummed out I lost to some of the 1-2 matches because I felt like I had a very good chance of winning it all if I made better decisions such as mulling to better suit the competition.

[APodeschwa]

@ muradin

how is ur sideboardplan with this deck? how to board in most matchups? can u give us a more or less detailed plan?

[sdematt]

One thing I can see with splashing green instead of black is having access to "Back to Nature." Grip is good, but getting rid of Moat, Humility, and a bunch of stuff off the board at once also seems like an upside as well. It helps with the Enchantress matchup, as well. Has anyone else considered the card, if they were splashing green in their build?

-MAtt

[Razorwynd]

I took the exact list I posted to the German Legacy Championship with 200+ participants yesterday and finished first going 8-1 with tiebreakers and opponent score from hell.

Congrats on the finish... I played Van Phanel's list this past weekend (4-1-2) and was convinced that standstill is just too much of a liability.


However I have to admit that my deck was actually not as good as I expected and only worked in a disappointing way in several games. I could still win the tournament and now I know the weak points of my deck and will adjust it accordingly. Thank you all for posting your lists and especially your criticism, it helps me a lot to tweak and improve this a bit more.

Care to expand upon your thoughts? What were the perceived week points and perhaps potential fixes. I see the near future leading to more dreadstill decks without standstill. One thing I noticed was you cut a land while adding 2 Jace and a fourth color. Was this ever a problem (I guess not as you said your mana was great al day)?

Perhaps a few questions would be useful to spark a discussion:

*2 Daze vs 3?
I like daze cause it lets you get a little more aggressive with Counterbalance or Jace against other control decks

*4 Counterbalance vs 3?
Was this ever excessively cumbersome? I guess with Jace you have even more ways to rid youself of extras

* 20 lands vs 21?
Care to elaborate on how you justified cutting a land while adding a color and 2 Jace to the deck? Perhaps factories only count as partial lands?

Thanks

[Rood]

Congrats on the finish Muradin. Did you ever find yourself sad to not be able to stall the game for multiple turns via Standstill? I find that to be one of the best parts about the card is sometimes how many turns you get to sculpt a nice hand etc. How was Jace btw? I'm sold on him in Dreadstill but probally only as a 1-of silver bullet card for me. I'm not totally convinced we want to be playing multiples in the deck, despite how good he is. I think a 1/1 split between maindeck/SB will be what i'll be using.

[Jackehehe]

I'm also very interested in Muradin's decklist and the "weak points" he mentioned. It's definately very interesting to see dreadstill being played without standstill, was predict a satisfying substitute? Could Dark Confidant perhaps be another one?

[Muradin]

Sideboarding:

Zoo: -4 Dreadnought, -4 Stifle, -2 Daze, -2 Trickbind
+1 Plains, +4 StoP, +1 Explosives, +2 Perish, +3 Firespout, +1 Jace

In tournament play I am 7-2 in matches against Zoo with this sideboard plan. My testing here were 20 games preboard, where I went 12-8 preboard (slightly better than even, as expected) and 16-4 postboard (pretty good). Those results are not faked. If you are interested I can give you my Zoo testing list as well. It is a standard list with 4 Path, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 2 Sylvan Library, 2 Knight of the Reliquary maindeck. The board has 3 Grip, 2 Pyroblast, 2 StoP effects that get boarded in for Helix and Chain Lightnings.
My plan is to have them sit on their useless removal (Path, StoP), not getting 2-1ed by Grip, have them grip your Tops, get new ones via Trinket Mage (that get pathed then, which doesn’t matter and gives you either life or extra lands). Your awesome removal suite helps you to kill all of their creatures most of the time.
Jace wins this matchup in the end by being a strong win condition they can’t Grip or Path. You don’t want land destruction effects here (and thus Daze is weak), because you try to stop their guys while they assemble burn, Paths and other useless cards and slowly get flooded with lands. You keep up your card quality threatening to drop the Counterbalance hammer on them and eventually win in a controlling way.

Goblins: -4 Counterbalance, -2 Daze, -2 Jace, -1 Spell Snare
+1 Plains, +1 Explosives, +4 StoP, +3 Firespout

This matchup depends heavily on their splash color. Luckyly, most builds today are mono R or Rb. While mono red is a rather favorable matchup I consider Rb to be even preboard and slightly favorable postboard. Rg however is slightly unfavorable preboard (if they have several Tin Street Hooligan maindeck) and Rgb is abyssal. They have Sting Scourger, Warren Weirdings, Tin Street Holligan, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blasts…. The worst of all Goblin builds combined. Goblins is a very explosive and strong deck and thus can always cause problems. They can recover quickly from Firespout via Ringleaders and have a lot of strong opening plays with Vial / Lackey.
Their creatures have haste, so Jace doesn’t work very well here and in general I found myself not capable of controlling them in the long run. However all the removal you bring in helps to keep them in check for several turns and stop their initial assault until you find a Nought and can protect it.

In general the matchup depends heavily on their build, but I consider every build without Krosan Grip to be roughly even, mono red favorable.

Merfolk: -4 Counterbalance, -2 Jace, -3 Predict, -1 Top, -2 Daze(on the draw), -2 Snare (on the play)
+3 Pyroblast, +1 Explosives, +4 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Firespout, +1 Plains

Unlike Goblins you can actually control them quite some of the time postboard, as they don’t have ringleaders to refill their hand. Dreadnought is a beating here and will end the game immediately 4/5 of the time you land one. Trickbind is very strong here as well for being uncounterable. Most merfolk decks don’t have any solutions for a resolved Dreadnought at all.
The matchup is roughly even to slightly negative preboard and becomes a lot better postboard. Merfolk is a difficult matchup most of the time, but it isnt’t all that bad in general because they get crushed by a resolved Nought.

4 Color Columbus Counterbalance: -4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -2 Trickbind, -2 Daze,
+3 Pyroblast, +1 Plains, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Jace, TMS

Quite some of the time they just get blown out by your land destruction. They have so much removal, that Dreadnought is not very likely to connect here, unless you have already won. Perish is not needed as they usually just have 4 Goyfs and 2 Cliques, those get handled pretty well by 3 Swords. Those are mainly brought in, so I can focus my Spell Snares on their Counterbalances/ Predicts / Counterspells.
We are the better control deck postboard for having more real card advantage and another angle of attack with Stifle + Wasteland. Furthermore their removal is rather inefficient against us, killing only Trinket Mager after he has done his duty.
Make sure you play quickly here, as the matches tend to last very long and your win conditions are not very fast. This matchup depends heavily on how experienced you are here, but will be favorable with good play on your part.

Pro Bant: -4 Dreadnought, -4 Stifle, -2 Daze, -2 Trickbind
+1 Jace, +1 Plains, +4 StoP, +1 Explosives, +2 Perish, +3 Pyroblast

This is a good matchup. However their manabase is pretty hard to disrupt as they run Noble Hierarch with a lot of cantrips and basic lands. Postboard their removal suite includes Trygon Predator, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Qasali Pride Mage and Krosan Grip. Thus it is near impossible to win with a timely Dreadnought here.
In general I try to act as the control deck postboard, while Perish is a total beating and they will struggle to threaten you any longer once you gain some card advantage while they are still holding their removal.
Preboard you are slightly favorable and postboard it becomes very good. I am glad to play this matchup every tournament.

Canadian Threshold: -4 Dreadnought, -2 Spell Snare, -2 Daze, -2 Trickbind
+1 Perish, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Explosives, +1 Plains, +4 StoP

Roughly even, slightly favorable preboard. Becomes better post board. While Dreadnought is very strong here preboard it becomes very hard to resolve one, once they have 4 Spell Pierce and 4 REB’s after sideboarding. Watch out for Vendilion Clique and Trygon Predator as they are their most scary threats before sideboarding.
Postboard keep their creatures of the table, protect your manabase with your stifles and kill them with Jace, once they start drawing Dazes and Spell Pierce in the lategame.
I take out Spell Snare here because we already have 4 StoP to kill their Goyfs and thus don’t need that many Snares here as they become redundant if you draw too many.
I only bring in 1 Perish here, because it costs 3 mana and we only have 1 Underground Sea and I don’t want to draw any redundant copies once they managed to destroy it via Wasteland.

New Horizons: -4 Dreadnought, -2 Spell Snare, -1 Explosives, -1 Trinket Mage, -2 Trickbind
+1 Plains, +4 StoP, +1 Jace, +1 Perish, +3 Pyroblast

They have 4 StoP, 4 Krosan Grip. Dreadnought won’t work here. This plays out very similar to the Canadian Threshold matchup. However you got a slightly unfavorable matchup here, because they have StoP and bigger creatures. Postboard you must kill or counter every single creature immediately and Jace is an absolute bomb here, bouncing guys and creating card advantage. This is where StoP really shines.

Landstill: -4 Dreadnought, -2 Daze, -1 Explosives
+3 Pyroblast, +1 Jace, +1 Plains, +2 StoP

My plan is to kill them with Planeswalkers and counter theirs. Thus I blank their removal and bring in an extra Jace with REBs to force him through and some StoPs to prevent their Mishras from killing my Plainswalkers in case they get more than I get Wasteland.
The matchup depends totally on their build, but in general it is favorable, especially the new Ubg builds, as Deed is not good against 6 Stifle effects and they don’t have Elspeth. If they are running Elspeth (most do), Crucible (some do) and 2-3 Decree of Justice(nearly nobody does) however I’d leave 2-3 Noughts in however as you will lose in the long run. Try to disrupt their mana then, drop a CB and kill them with a quick 12/12. This will still be an uphill battle in case they got many of the aforementioned cards.

Most types of combo are an easy matchup as well.

If you think, that I am too optimistic considering the matchup evaluation I can only say that this came from a lot of tournament play and serious testing. I’ll now mention some of the very weak matchups however that came up in testing:

Bad Matchups: Goblins Rgb, Ichorid (not abyssal, replace the 3rd Jace with a Crypt to make it a lot better), Uw Merfolk (in general Tribal decks with Grip or StoP), some Landstill builds (Geoff Smelski wise), Bgw Deadguy Ale (Tombstalker, Confidant, Sinkhole, Grip, StoP).

In general you see a pattern here. I use Phyrexian Dreadnought to improve my matchup to a point no other card could against aggro decks and otherwise difficult matchups (Enchantress, Lands). This allows us to run the strongest, blue control shell in the format which would otherwise be dead to any kind of Zoo or tribal deck and thus get an edge in the control mirror. Dreadnought is simply the most slot effective card to win against creature based strategies of any kind.

Considering the manabase I think it is actually quite strong, probably even more reliable than the traditional manabase. At a first glance, you will notice that I run only 20 lands total in my maindeck compared to the 21 in more traditional Dreadstill builds. But you have to take into consideration, that I have 16 blue mana sources total instead of 14 in other builds. This is especially important because I am running the full 4 of Counterbalances and thus need to be able to cast them reliably early on.

By running 8 fetchlands I have good access to all of my 4 colors and the basic Plains is very important in the board, as it makes StoP the beast it is in the matchups where it matters.
Furthermore, the maindeck is still mono blue, we have Stifle effects to protect our lands from Wasteland, and finally the deck only is 4 colored against matchups that don't have wasteland at all most of the time.

Considering 2 vs 3 Daze: If you run Jace maindeck I wouldn't run too many Dazes as those two cards don't play together very well, otherwise play as many as you can fit in. Roodmistah actually runs the full play set of Dazes, which is fine. In my list however, the 4th Daze got cut for the 4th Spell Snare because this card is better in the current metagame for me. The 3rd Daze got cut alongside with the 4th Predict for 2 Jace, to supplement my draw engine and to make my sideboard plans work.

Considering 3 vs 4 Counterbalance: I wanted to run 4 of those, I really did. The same is true for Wasteland. I think the decklist can't be optimal while running only 3 of those 2 cards as they are especially strong here, and therefore should be 4-ofs. While running 4 Mishra's Factory, you can't run 4 Wasteland because otherwise your blue mana count drops too low and thus your deck becomes inconsistent and will take a lot of mulligans.

My build simply gave me the possibility to run 4 of both. In general I dropped Standstill, consequently I dropped Factory. This gave me the possibility to run more blue mana sources and the full 4 Wastelands. After I had so many blue sources I could consequently add the 4th Counterbalance and drop it early on without any problems. After having removed Standstill I needed another draw engine, this was Predict.

Predict isn't as powerful as Standstill but fits this deck perfectly because it is card advantage and card quality at the same time. Namely: It helps you to get rid of superfluous Daze, Dreadnoughts, Stifles, Lands... To compensate the loss of raw card advantage and to give me a stronger control matchup I added 2 Jace, TMS. They are very versatile and strong, but I guess you all know, that they tend to win some games.

20 VS 21 lands: I have 16 blue mana sources, which was more important to me, than having 21 lands total. Not having factory makes the mana base stronger; however they were strong in many matchups and definitely gave the deck more punch.

Previously I have seen Dreadstill as a real: aggro-control-combo deck. In my build it has become control-combo. This has its advantages and disadvantages.

@Roodmistah: I found myself happy to stall with Standstill countless times. However, quite often I had the problem that in some matchups I got to draw 3 of Standstill and still didn’t find myself in a very good position because I had to discard immediately EOT and my opponents deck had a much stronger late game, namely Landstill or Plainswalker control decks.

In this particular tournament, Jace was totally underwhelming. My matchups were:
5x Vial Aggro variants (3x Merfolk, 1x Goblins, 1x GW Death and Taxes) (obviously he isn’t that strong here)
2x Canadian Threshold (here he was a bomb for sure, but hard to resolve due to them having 4 REB, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 FoW postboard and thus he was only mildly effective). However he won some games here as well.
1x Staxx, 1x Bant: In both of those matchups he has shown his actual strength by singlehandedly winning at least 1 game in each of those matches on his own. Especially the game I described in my last post convinced me of his strength, as he allowed me to game back from a very unfavorable position and win the matchup against an abundance of hate cards.

Predict was strong all day long, especially against the 5 Vial decks I played, where Standstill wouldn't have been optimal. Dark Confidant is a strong card, but doesn't fit here as he gets killed by nearly everything and is weak against agressive strategies, which are pretty dominant all over the format at the moment.

I definitely think, that 1/1 Jace in the main and the board is fine here, as I also run another copy in the board. Considering my sideboard plans I really need 3 Jace postboard, as otherwise I am pretty low on win conditions.

Finally I have to note, that while I personally think that my build is pretty strong, I don’t say that the traditional Dreadstill build is any bad, or that my version is superior to it. It is still very close to the original decklist, as it does nearly the same in many matchups, I only tried to solve some of the problematic matchups and cards by making some changes that appear to be strong to me and have accomplished what I wanted them to do.

I will make some changes to my decklist in the near future. I will let you know eventually, when I figured out what is the correct way to strengthen some of the weaker points I found. But this will need some more matches.

Edit: This actually became pretty long

[Razorwynd]

I will make some changes to my decklist in the near future. I will let you know eventually, when I figured out what is the correct way to strengthen some of the weaker points I found. But this will need some more matches.


Thanks for the detailed report. It was greatly appreciated. My recent tournament with dreadstill was my first legacy event (and it was the most fun I have had playing magic in a long time). I look forward to seeing/helping the deck evolve in the time to come. If only I had more legacy events in my area.

[The Atog Lord]

Muradin,

Thank you. That is the best thing I have read on The Source in a long time. You have presented your reasoning well. And I plan to test your build and its sideboarding plan in the near future.

[Rico Suave]

Muradin:

I sat down with The Atog Lord last night and we tested the build you presented. In our games he was playing Dreadstill, and I was playing Zoo. We played a number of pre and post boarded games and the Dreadstill deck used the exact sideboarding you presented in your most recent post. The Zoo deck in question was fairly standard and it looked like this:

// Lands
1 [B] Forest
1 [B] Plains
1 [B] Mountain
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Savannah
3 [B] Plateau
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [WWK] Loam Lion
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle

The maindeck is about what would be expected, if a little rough around the edges. The SB, and my particular approach in SB'ing, is worth some explanation.

Previously I've used a combination of 3 REB and 3 Choke, though in this testing session I was up to 6 REB which was inspired by the Japanese "Big Zoo" list. I was testing the 6 REB approach because I thought it might be an effective approach against the Show and Tell decks where Choke isn't so hot but REB is pretty good. So while I got to REB Jace/CB more often than a normal Zoo deck would, I never got to just end the game with Choke either. Ultimately I still feel that a 3 REB and 3 Choke approach is stronger against blue control decks like Dreadstill. The Pithing Needle is not there for anything in particular; it is mostly just a test card that I wanted to throw in but it had some application in this match too.

My first post-SB game was atrocious and I lost with Zoo. I forget exactly what I boarded in and out, but it was poorly thought out and I ended up with a bunch of burn while he was at like 15 life with CB/Top or something similar and knew I made a serious mistake. In our 2nd post-SB game I tried a different approach that ended up working much better. I won most of our following post-board games with these changes:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-4 Chain Lightning
-3 Lightning Helix
+3 Krosan Grip
+3 REB
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Pithing Needle

I kept Path because of respect for the Dreadnought plan, and also because I figured it would be more representative of actual tournament games. Were I to replay this series of games, I would ditch the Paths and keep the Bolts. In previous testing sessions I have boarded out Paths in this match-up but that was also a different Zoo deck. I would be loathe to board in MORE StP effects at any point though, as Zoo really does not want them in this match and they are actually quite bad in many situations.

Regardless, this SB plan is fairly close to what I do against a stock blue-based control deck that is likely to be sitting on tons of removal after boarding. My plan is quite simple:

1) Play a single creature, no more and no less
2) Attack
3) If the single creature is removed, then replace it with another creature
4) Support the creature with utility such as REB, Sylvan Library, Grip, and Path

Essentially...the critical element for the Zoo player here is to not run into mass removal. Whether it is Firespout or Perish or EE, a good Zoo player will likely know that the blue deck is up to something and will only play one creature at a time. Why would it need to play more? A single Wild Nacatl can apply quite a strong amount of pressure all on its own. The Zoo player knows that he cannot be raced, and he can win a game of attrition provided he doesn't run into a card like Firespout that just blows him out. Without a card like Factory, there is no reason for the Zoo player to put 2 creatures on the board. This leaves all the mass removal as simple 1:1 trades.

Because most blue decks tend to board in removal of some kind, whether it is a little or a lot, boarding out creatures against these decks is very silly. And because CB decks can so easily remove early creatures and lock the game with CB (shutting off burn), the actual burn spells do not provide inevitability like they do against a classical control deck such as Landstill (which must manually counter each and every lethal burn spell). Thus, boarding out removal/burn in this match is perfectly valid. In fact, after boarding I only had 4 such spells in my entire deck and I felt very strong directly because of this.

The poard-SB match was pretty rough for Dreadstill with this plan. All of the cards that help the blue deck pull ahead, namely CB and Jace, were quickly shut down by the Zoo deck. And without a way to generate an advantage, it is an uphill struggle for the blue deck because it is the Zoo player who has inevitability here, whereas I feel that in the example where the Zoo player is boarding in things like StP it is then the Dreadstill player who has inevitability. Either way it feels pretty close and most of our games tended to be long, drawn out affairs.

At the very least, I did not feel our games played out in a manner that would suggest the Dreadstill player was favored in a 16-4 ratio, and in fact I would be hard pressed to say that Dreadstill is favored at all after boarding. Perhaps Rich can share some of his insights from the other side of the match.

[The Atog Lord]

The matchup between DreadDict and Zoo was decidedly even, pre- and post-board. While much could be said about the matches, I would like to focus on those differences between the performance of DreadDict against Zoo, and the typical performance of DreadStill against Zoo.

In the games before sideboarding, the typical difference between DreadDict (DD) and DreadStill is found in the names. DD has predict and more blue-producing land, whereas DreadStill has Standstill and Mishra's Factory. Unfortunately, this is a net negative for DreadDict when facing Zoo. In the Dreadstill on Zoo matchup, there is no card I like more than Standstill. It is quite easy to get into play against an empty or at least matched board. And from there, the Zoo player has no choice but to pop Standstill, or die to the eventual Mishra's Factory onslaught. Predict, while a fine card, does not pack quite the same punch as Standstill.

First, Standstill draws three cards while Predict draws at most two. That's the difference between Night's Whisper and Ancestral Recall. The difference between keeping a hand and Mulliganing that hand. Second, Standstill takes less setup than Predict to make work. Which is not to say that Standstill takes no setup -- but that is generally done in deck construction, rather than during a game. A second turn Standstill is much, much easier to make work than a second turn predict. And by the time Predict has been established, the game against Zoo has often been won or lost. Which is not to say that Standstill is flat-out better than Predict; that must be evaluated across several matchups. But against Zoo in particular, I would much prefer Standstill.

Then there are the sideboard games. As Brad pointed out, it became quite difficult to get value out of my mass removal; quite often, I would be forced to fire a Perish merely to kill one Nacatyl. It was that or continue taking three damage per turn for the foreseeable future. If Brad weren't playing well, I could have hoped that he would overextended into my mass-removal. But he is a first-rate player and I could hold no such hope.

I also missed Mishra's Factory in the matches. Factory successfully blocks Loam Lions and Kird Apes, and trades with Wild Nacatyls. Being able to become a 3/3 alone, or 4/4 with help from a friend, Factory is quite good against Zoo. But once Dreadnoughts are boarded out, we're left with mass-removal spells and Trinket Mages to hold off a creature-fueled onslaught. So this leads to having to throw a Firespout to remove a Loam Lion. And the mass removal runs out.

What did I like about this build? Swords to Plowshares was quite good. It hits large Goyfs, unlike Lightning Bolt or similar removal. And with the Dreadnoughts cut, giving the opponent an extra six life is perfectly fine. Overall, though, I dislike what the changes do to the Zoo matchup. That said, if they can help facilitate victory in other tough matches, they may indeed be worthwhile. But for Zoo, the changes make the matchup more difficult for the blue mage.

[Muradin]

Today I participated in a smaller local tournament (42 participants) going 5-1 with my known build with minimal changes.

My matchups were the following:

2-1 Zoo with Lynx: I lost game 1 after having resolved CB + Top against his Nacatl and Mancer, because I couldn't find a stifle for 5 turns of brainstorming, predicting, fetching and toping. Happens.
G2 +3 I managed to completely crush him as I got card advantage on him with mass removal and managed to ride the card advantage to an easy victory.

2-1 TES: Good matchup, lost to a protected 2nd round kill one game while he did nothing in the other 2 games and I overkilled him.

2-0 GW Vengevine Survival G1 I 4-1ed him with Trinket Mage->Explosives, by killing 2 Noble Hierarch, 1 Mother of Runes, 1 Aether Vial after he had kept a good 1lander with those cards and waste him out after this. G2 Counterbalance + Firespout quickly make short work of him.

1-2 Rb Goblins: G1 I win with a timely Dreadnought. G2 I manage to drop a Dreadnought and he closely wins on 1 life with a nice topdeck. G3 I mulligan to 6 and lose in a long, drawn out battle against 2 Aether Vial while he taps 2 of my 4 lands with Ports every turn. I die with 2x Firespout, 1x Dreadnought, 1x Trickbind in hand while having a Top in play,unable to find a another land.

2-0 Aggro Rock: G1 Dreadnought with FoW backup wins. G2 is a long, drawn out game, where I finally manage to win with my 3rd Jace after he destroys my 2 previous ones via Vindicate.

2-0 Natural Order Elves: G1 I get the nuts hand with 2nd turn Nought with FoW backup and he has no chance. G2 I kill a Progenitus and some elves with Perish, drop a Jace and control him out easily from there.

I won a nice dual land and the prices were very good.
The deck worked pretty well and Jace was really strong this whole tournament.

But now to the more interesting part with the Zoo matchup:

The maindeck I tested against had no Steppe Lynx and only played 2 Libraries, while featuring 4 Kird Apes, the full 4 Lavamancers and 2 KotR

Especially the board with the blasts seems to be truely effective. Usually I expect a Zoo board to look much rather like this: (what I tested against)

2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vexing Shusher

The 6 blasts plan, combined with Grips and Needles will definitely give Dreadstill headaches, by making it difficult to attain any card advantage at all. Getting card advantage is actually the whole purpose of my whole sideboard plan and if they manage to prevent me from doing so, it'll be a coin flip most of the time. Especially their strong ability to keep me from using Top, which is a total trump card here, makes me feel much less confident in this matchup.
I am already having trouble facing builds running the usual 3 blasts, as they were already very strong for them in testing. Even more so, most of my Zoo opponents in tournament play might have followed a wrong plan and consequently got fucked by mass removal after they overextended.

I will definitely revise my testing against Zoo and I truely believe, that your results are correct. But to tell the truth, I am not worried at all about real tournament play. When playing in big tournaments (Milan, GPs,GP Trials, Germanmagic, Aschaffenburg), those being the ones I go to, I've never met a Zoo deck with such an effective sideboard against me. They actually didn't even seem to know my deck at all and more than half of them were totally surprised by my abundance of removal postboard while they saw a mono blue Dreadnought deck the game before.

I am actually convinced, that most of those players I faced in larger events were above average, as I actually did pretty well in all those events and they wouldn't have come that far / made day 2 if they were bad.

Still, this doesn't influence my testing and view on the matchup. I will do some games and will see what I can do against the suggested list (and playstyle). If the Zoo matchup proves to be less than still favorable this is unacceptable for me and I will find a solution.

This solution is not a way to stop the initial assault, but much rather a card that helps you to gain card advantage on them in an untouchable way, or force them to race.

This could be:

1. A stronger white splash (also helps against Goblins and Merfolk) featuring Elspeth, knight Errant as a, "un-blastable" way of winning the game and generating card advantage against aggro decks with a lot of BeB's. Elspeth is also one of the cards I am currently testing in some of the "weaker slots", but so far I am still trying to successfully adjust my mana base to support her. I already figured out, that she is suboptimal in the maindeck (anyway, this would take a lot of our advantages away and turn us more or less into landstill). But postboard she has proven to be strong in some matchups, control as well as aggro. I will post when I come to a conclusion about her inclusion in the board and the consequently needed manabase adjustments. Her role here would be the threat card zoo has to race and thus overextend into mass removal.

Elspeth is especially strong as she is a solution for, well, Eslpeth. She is one of the last cards I fear in the control mirror (alongside Decree of Justice and Crucible of Worlds. This is my most promising solution so far. This would however force me to drop the Underground Sea and consequently Perish for mana base stability. To tell the truth, I fear Natural Order as it is pretty strong against Dreadstill and always liked the card a lot against Elves, KotR and other green guys as well. (I even killed a Troll ascetic with it in tournament play and was happy about the non-regeneration part) However I already found a replacement that might be nearly as good.

2. A sideboard plan that leaves Dreadnoughts in. To make them strong against Grip I'd add Kira, the Great Glass Spinner (savage Merfolk tech). This is however also weak to REB. A card I also already tried with some success is Quagnoth (manabase adjusted, also giving you the ability to kill otherwise devastating Serra Avengers or Vampire Nighthawk via Firespout, which can be a very strong and unexpected play)

3. Another very simple possibility is adding 1 Academy Ruins in the maindeck. Then you run the 3rd explosives in the board in one Firespout slot and add an Etched Oracle alongside a Crucible of Worlds (SB for manabase stability, Wasteland lock and inevitability) for the 3rd Jace and another card. This however goes along with several other small, but important changes and gives the deck a very strong lategame against everything without a lot of mana denial[/B] When running Academy Ruins and Trinket Mage in the maindeck it would be terrible not to run 1 Tormod's Crypt as well in the board. This single card improves the Ichorid and Lands matchup so much in the Dreadstill shell with Ruins, that is is probably worth the inclusion even if it is not very commonly needed.

4. Coming up with a different deck I consider strong enough to do better in the current metagame.

[Razorwynd]

Is Bloodmoon a good way to combat zoo? OR Perhaps it is just to slow.

In theory, it seems capable of hindering their development (and keep them off green) long enough that we can establish control with counterbalance top. I am just throwing out suggestions. We don't have factories to worry about with Bloodmoon.

Another thought I had from the past ext season is recurring executioners capsule with academy ruins. We do have trinket mage to tutor up the capsule just need a reliable way to get academy.

Thoughts?

Edit: This may be a suggestion that is too rooted in standard but calcite snapper/wall of denial block really well and force them to over commit making perish/firespout a lot better. Again, entirely untested and probably a bad idea. There is not a strong legacy following here so it is hard to get testing in for these ideas.

[Rico Suave]

This solution is not a way to stop the initial assault, but much rather a card that helps you to gain card advantage on them in an untouchable way, or force them to race.


I believe that Standstill itself qualifies as such a card in the Zoo match.

Were I to play against Zoo all day I would much prefer Standstill to Predict. However the presence of other decks, particularly Vial centered decks, does make Predict a more appealing option. I suppose the ideal goal is that Predict will help smooth all of the aggro matches at the same time, and that losing ground in the Zoo match is acceptable if the Merfolk/Goblnis matches improve significantly.

One of your reasons for playing Predict was that you described it as being good against Vial decks, where Standstill would be lackluster. But then I noticed you were SB'ing out Predict against Merfolk anyway. I am left confused. If Predict isn't worth playing against Merfolk, is it worthwhile to play it in place of Standstill?

[Muradin]

I actually don't see why Standstill is strong against a 6 basts plan. I couldn't drop Standstill during the first few turns against Zoo most of the time, but more often during the midgame. It was especially strong against the aforementioned playstyle of Zoo only playing 1 threat at once, because you could simply bolt it and drop your Standstill eot. But this also gets much weaker once your opponent gets 6 blasts.

Strategy

I actually think that against such a strong anti blue board (as well as against Canadian Threshold with a whole lot of blasts) Force of Will is not only bad, but rather a card that is disadvantageous for you. It will be hard to capitalize on the tempo gain from FoW against zoo, after having dropped all Noughts. Once I see my opponent is strong on blasts (considering I am 1-1 after g2 and lost against the blast + 1 threat plan) I would not hesitate to tell them honestly, that I boarded out all of my Noughts in fear of their removal and that I only lost because of this stupid idea. Then I will put back, not 15 as I usually do, but rather only some cards and show them a Nought in the process(dropping it on the table in a inept but not eye-catching way. Don't act as if you were a noob, they won't belive you, much rather like you "tried something new and figured out it must suck.")
After this you will have to play very quickly anyway, because games where you play the attrition war against zoo tend to take long and you won't have a hard time acting as if you were in a hurry.

You have to be good at this though.

Then proceed to pull out all but 1 Nought again, but keep the Stifle effects (as they are especially strong, once you are on the play in g3). Attack their mana base as hard as you can. This works especially well, as you didn't put any pressure on their lands in G2 and they might make a riskant keep here (possibly a 1 lander, but this is bad play on their part if it happens as they focus too much on 1 possible strategy Dreadstill can follow) because they don't want to mull fearing another attrition war.Consequently they have a hard time pressuring you while keeping up mana for blasts at the same time.Once they tap out, resolve your card advantage. Sometimes you might also manage to completely screw them and get a nice random win like that. Without FoW you will also find yourself in a stronger possition if they don't overextend, because 2-1 trades just aren't that good here (which is also why I drop my Noughts postboard)

strategy end

I managed to pull this of just in my last tournament, where my Zoo opponent had a Zoo build with a very strong lategame, featuring 3 KotR, 2 Elspeth ans 2 Sylvan Library. G3 I managed to screw him to 2 lands, resolve 2 Trinket Mage, consequently getting the 3rd Top only through his Grips and win via card quality and advatage after he had to Path both of them because he boarded out all of his burn and they threatened to put serious pressure on him after I had wasted and stifled 3 of his 5 land drops during the first few turns.

Mishra's Factory is a totally different story however. It is good, especially preboard to make them overextend. But in all those tournament games I played with Dreadstill, and those are about 10 times more than I played with the predict list (which I am not about, whether it is better or too weak) I didn't find myself capable of holding them of with Mishra's Factory very often.

They usually assemble a critical mass of useless burn in their hand and by activating Factory you give them a very good target all of a sudden. And while Standstill is definitely a trump card here when you are on the play (Hell, you can even drop it over a Nacatl with a Factory in play), I always had a lot of trouble making it work when I was on the draw, especially since a lot of Zoo lists in Germany have started to run 4 Wastelands:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37512
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37515
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32847

Postboard however, this is different. This is where Factory shines after they dropped most of their burn and will hesitate to path it, they become really strong and will eventually force them to overextend, especially once you get 2-3 of them. Elspeth + Academy Ruins / Explosives makes up for a lategame Zoo definitely can not compete with. If they don't kill you quickly you will eventually get one of those 2 or possibly both only and win. Those 2 plans are what I consider to be strong, not only because they fit pretty well in the shell as it is. And believe me, both cards were already included several times in earlier testing incarnations of the deck, but ultimately I dropped them because I figured out, my Zoo matchup was excellent as well without them.

You give me real results however, that show that I am overconfident there, given a good Zoo player following the right strategy and having a nice sideboard. A lot of my board is geared towards beating zoo. If my testing (I'll do this week) shows the same (it probably will as I consider you to be very competent), then I will make some changes and see if it works.

[FloSun]

hey muradin, congratulations on the latest results;) especially on winning the german legacy championships!


how did you sideboard against the vengevine survival deck? just like you did against new horizons or is there a difference?

[jin]

@ Kira >> Thought about this.. doesn't work. You can't stifle your dreadnaughts afterwards.

@ academy ruins >> I like academy ruins but the 12/12 goes farming more often than does it dies, so iunno about the plan. EE, I find, is very weak in this deck as anything 0 is ok, but above that, you hurt yourself more than you hurt your opponent. at 1, your own naught goes, at 2 your CB and if you can get the mana for 3, which you usually can't, then you hit your own trinket mage. I find that perish or firespout is better because although your trinket mage goes to the yard from firespout, the manalands and the 12/12 doesn't get affected. Also, if they over extend, Explosives doesn't necessarily punish them as sometimes you want to get rid of the 3 cmc knight because it is too big as well as the hordes of 3/3 and 4/5 but can't deal with both ont he saem turn. (I hope that wasn't too confusing)

@ bloodmoon against zoo >> too slow, ineffective against their creatures that have alrady resolved. It dosen't solve the problem in which zoo has a threatening board position over dreadstill

I find that removal is simply better. Then set CBT lock to lock out their removal and beat them down with a dreadnaught. Don't be worried to block with your factories as every bit of life counts. STifle/wasteland package should hurt them quite a bit already, blood moon is counter intuitive as it costs you more resources to not really deny them of that much more mana.

[dsck]

@ Kira >> Thought about this.. doesn't work. You can't stifle your dreadnaughts afterwards.


ZZzz this has been explained 10 times in this thread, you are not targeting the nought but the trigger, thus it works.

[Jackehehe]

I've been running this deck lately (similar to Muradin's I guess)

// Lands

4 Island
7 Fetch
4 wasteland
2 volcanic island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's divining top
3 Spell Snare
3 Predict
3 Daze
1 Trickbind
1 Engineered explosives
1 Crucible
2 Jace the mindsculptor

// Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage

// SB
1 Jace the mindsculptor
1 Plains
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Engineered explosives
2 Firespout
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's crypt

As you can see I've tried running white splash in the SB as well. I havent really playtested the deck extensively but I'm starting to really appreciate what I've seen from it so far; namely the possibility of reconstructing the deck to complete controll. Having Jace offers an undeniably huge utility to the deck which can be exploited in many ways.

The deck runs a reasonable amount of 3-drops (for being dreadstill, that is) so when siding out dreadnoughts vs, for instance, Zoo, this deck basically becomes a countertop deck which makes the Zoo MU easier. Oh and I suppose the same is true for MUs when countertop decks are in favour.

I'm really not missing standstill in this deck (so far hehe). Not having Mishra's opens for a 4th wasteland (is there a limit to how many matches you can win by stifling fetch > follow with waste?) and I mull less hands as well due to mana stability. I'm in love with predict as well, amazing card that can be used in so many different ways but best of all is probably that you can cantrip when YOU actually want to.

I'm not sure about running crucible, I think I have to test it some more. I'm also not sure about running only 1 explosives. Incidentally, I run 3 dazes which doesnt really synergize with Jace. Maybe cut 1 daze for another explosive?

I think removing standstills in favour for predict adds some really interesting elements to the deck and frees up some card slots. Jace is also a massive tech which can and should be utilized in many different ways. Above all, running 4 counterbalance should be mandotary I think. I realize that I've previously underestimated the power of having CBT in play, its just such a massive advantage to have and in some MUs its pretty much a must-have to be able to support a nought.

[jin]

ZZzz this has been explained 10 times in this thread, you are not targeting the nought but the trigger, thus it works.

oh like the piledriver thing.. +2/+0 thing
gotcha.
sorry I don't follow this thread enough.
I also searched kira and kira, on the thread search and nothing showed up, so you can't really blame me.

then why does dreadstill play countertop at all (ignoring the post from above due to the lack of comparison between CBT and Kira)? Kira is way faster.

[sdematt]

Counterbalance Top allows you to have a great game against Zoo, and many other decks in the format. Not only can you play "Protect the Nought," which is helpful in and of itself, you can also end the game for some decks, then lay down the Nought.

CB-Top allows you to have a decent game against Zoo if you can get it online. You can counter all their 1 drops most of the time, so they can't burn you out. Kira doesn't protect you from being burned in the face and killed. They can just go "Bolt, Chain lightning, Bolt, Price of Progress, Fireblast. Win?"

CB-Top also gives you a real edge against Combo. Most of the time, Combo either tries to take your Force of Will, or build up enough protection and play so many things you can't counter them all, then they Chant you. With CB-Top on board, you just counter their relevant spells with CB, then hard counter spells you can't touch (ex. Iggy) with real counters.

It is a bit slow, I'll be honest. I'm not as much of a fan as I am having something else, but it is very good against a variety of matchups, I still keep it in because its just SO good against so many things, it can be better than having extra Engineered Explosives or what have you.

Hope this helps!

-Matt

[jin]

Counterbalance Top allows you to have a great game against Zoo, and many other decks in the format. Not only can you play "Protect the Nought," which is helpful in and of itself, you can also end the game for some decks, then lay down the Nought.

CB-Top allows you to have a decent game against Zoo if you can get it online. You can counter all their 1 drops most of the time, so they can't burn you out. Kira doesn't protect you from being burned in the face and killed. They can just go "Bolt, Chain lightning, Bolt, Price of Progress, Fireblast. Win?"

CB-Top also gives you a real edge against Combo. Most of the time, Combo either tries to take your Force of Will, or build up enough protection and play so many things you can't counter them all, then they Chant you. With CB-Top on board, you just counter their relevant spells with CB, then hard counter spells you can't touch (ex. Iggy) with real counters.

It is a bit slow, I'll be honest. I'm not as much of a fan as I am having something else, but it is very good against a variety of matchups, I still keep it in because its just SO good against so many things, it can be better than having extra Engineered Explosives or what have you.

Hope this helps!

-Matt

Oh yes, I'm a bit more clear now on the matter. Thanks for the polite response. I always expected just a fast naught to be able to win it... Do you ever side out CBT in the non-zoo, non combo match ups then? Just to give it a more combo feeling.

[sdematt]

I don't think I've ever sided out Tops, but I do tend to side out Counterbalances in matchups where it is not as crucial: Ex. Goblins or Merfolk. In those matchups, you're trying to race them, whereas with Zoo, you'd like to CounterBalance lock them out, then combo.

Merfolk and Goblins can get around your Counterbalance via Aether Vial, and also run a more loose curse (not so much focused on CMC 1 and 2, and moreso on 2, 3). In this matchup, I usually side out Standstills and Counterbalance for Firespouts and the like.

Counterbalance is/theoretically seems terrible in the Landstill matchup, as the stuff that matters to them (Wishes, Jace, etc.) are at awkward converted mana costs. I'd take it out here.

I'm curious as to how Dreadstill handles the UBG Landstill matchup. Seems pretty difficult with 4 Deeds and 4 Innocent Blood. In a way, floating 3 on Counterbalance wouldn't be a bad thing.

Hope this clears stuff up! :D

-Matt

[Muradin]

Participated in the Ovinogeddon 5 with Dreadstill. The build was similar to my last list, -1 Jace, +1 Academy Ruins and some further manabase changes to support some different sideboard options. The deck didn't work very well and I had a hard time at this tournament. Got in at a 26th place of roughly 350 players going 6-2-1. This is a very disappointing result.
In the end I had 2 Byes there, because I am really that awesome, and still scrubbed out.

1. Bye
2. Bye
3. UGrw Bant Survival 0-2
4. Enchantress 1-1
5. Rw Goblins 2-0
6. Zoo 2-0
7. Zoo 2-1
8. Aggro Rock 0-2
9. Zoo 2-1

The Bant Survival deck was not very well tweaked (running Anger + Vengevine + Rofelos), but he absolutely devastated me in about 10 minutes 2-0. I didn't draw bad here at all, but he got the nuts here in both games. He drew more Survivals and Forces in both games than I could counter.

Game 2 He decided to completely pawn me. After I have assembled counterbalance + Top he drops 2x Jace(1x Countered), 1x Trygon Predator, 2x Vengevine, 1x Anger and I don't manage to get a 3 or 4 on top.

Against Enchantress I lost game 1 after keeping the following hand on the draw: 2 Stifle, 1 Dreadnought, 1 FoW, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Island. I never found my second mana.

G2 I mulled to 5 and somehow could grind it out with CB + Top + Jace + Academy Ruins + Explosives.

G3 we went to time after I mulled to 6 again and would have lost horribly.

For the rest of the day the deck did what it is good at and destroyed Zoo. The Goblin player was rather inexperienced and consequently doesn't tell much about the matchup which isn't that good.

While Aggro Rock (list was like the 8th place list from GP Columbus piloted by Brad Nelson) certainly isn't that good of a matchup, I couldn't win here as he got the nuts g1 while I mulliganed to 6 on the draw.

There was no G2 as I got a game loss for being too late. Postboard my chances of winning here would be greatly increased with the removal spells from the board.

In the end I was very unsatisfied with my result and several other good players from my car played the same deck and were also rather disappointed by how it performed. The tournament was really bad organized as there was 1 single toilet for 350 people and that could not be locked. People were seated so tightly, that they were playing with each other's elbows in the face and the location was an old fabric hall or garage that was much too small and dirty for that many people. While at the location one could buy some sandwiches, we were in some industrial area with no restaurant or mall anywhere in the next 5 miles.

Pairings and time were announced in Italian exclusively, even after many players asked for some English announcements. Some of my opponents and especially even some judges understood no English at all. And while I certainly played against some nice guys during the tournament about 3 of my opponents were total pricks for throwing their cards at me after having lost or insulting me with some "Puta Madre, Stronzo, Cazzo, Faccia de Merda..." without any reason (like for a blind CB reveal or getting a T2 Dreadnought). One of my Zoo opponents was heavily slow playing after having won G1. So I called a judge and he was like best friends with my opponent and didn't care at all while my opponent took like 5 minutes to figure out which land to get with a Wooded Foothills on turn 10 with roughly 5 in play already. After my opponent lost G2 of the same match he called exactly the same judge again to get some Italian rulings or wordings of cards I played as he didn't understand my english explanations. We still got no single minute of extra time, even if the whole thing took roughly 10 minutes and there were 5 minutes left for G3. (where I totally annihilated him with Top-> CB->Nought->Nought->Firespout and got called Faccia de Merda for my draw.)


I have never been to a tournament with such a bad location and atmosphere. All the people playing the deck had mediocre results and the deck seems to be pretty weak against Vengevine Survival decks and Rock of any kind. This probably makes it a very bad choice in the current metagame due to those 2 decks being rather popular right now. I am yet deciding if I will continue to run this deck after having played it for more than 2 years to great success now as all people have had rather badish results with it lately.

CB + Top seems to be unspectacular without a sufficient amount of removal, Dreadnoughts don't win that many games any more and my Wasteland + Stifle package only seems to prevent my opponents from getting totally flooded. But maybe I am just pissed at the moment about my performance and the deck is still good as it gave me 5-1 or similar results every time I played it during the last events I participated in.


@sdematt: Ubg Landstill is a fine matchup because you drop Counterbalance on them, Stifle their Deeds and they don't beat Planeswalkers + REB's postboard (especially my Elspeth in the board). You can lose this easily of course because that deck is rather strong in the control mirror, but especially their weak manabase and the weaknes of Pernicious Deed to Stifle effects makes this matchup very decent. Take out your Noughts and Dazes for some Planeswalkers, Plains, REB's and 1-2 StoP effects to protect your planeswalkers from factory.

[sdematt]

Thanks for the advice, Muradin.

I'm going to a tournament for a Moat on Saturday, and I'm thinking about running Dreadstill.

I expect to see Aggro Loam, Storm Combo, Dredge, Zoo, and possibly Vengvival but no Rock (since I'm the only guy locally who plays it) or Landstill.

Any sideboard tips? Should I splash for White or keep the Black for Perish?

-Matt

[Rood]

Muradin I recommend testing the Standstill builds again if you're having trouble against Survival-Esque decks. Literally any time I ever played any Survival MU I just wanted to see Standstill in my hand. This is definetally a MU you want to see Standstills badly.

Also don't get discouraged from a sub-par result. You will be fine with the deck just need to keep truckin. Once you've mastered this deck it's pretty damn solid right now.

[Ozymandias]

So I did some testing with the following decklist, and I was pretty impressed


2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives


I realize now that there are actually 4 (5 in some builds) indepentant strategies that mesh together, and that many games of Dreadstill, even against similar matchups, will play out differently depending on what you end up with in your opener.

1) Stifle-Wasteland mana denial, possibly augmented by crucible lock post SB
2) Stifle-Phyrexian Dreadnaught beatdown plan, with counter backup for path and the like
3) Standstill+Mishra's factory to accrue card advantage, with a possible long-game grindout via ruins/crucible recursion
4) Counterbalance-Sensei's Divining top soft lock.
5) Jace your face.

These strategies complement each other to a certain extent-for instance, if you stifle a fetch T1, you'll be in fine position to set up counter-top, jace, land-still, or stifle-naught in the near term. Jace is nice because it gives us a way to win the game that's not creature-dependant, because he gives the pre-board mono-blue dreadstill lists a reliable way to handle large creatures(e.g. Tombstalker, Emrakul, etc.), and because his card filtering blows even games wide open. To fit him in, I cut down 1 trickbind and 1 Dreadnought, and so far I am impressed.

I think that the SB probably needs reconfiguration, though.

[The Atog Lord]

If you want to see what I have been doing with Dreadstill lately, this article might be worth reading.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/20086_Whats_Peacekeeper_Do_First_Place_With_Ubw_Dreadstill.html

[pippo84]

If you want to see what I have been doing with Dreadstill lately, this article might be worth reading.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/20086_Whats_Peacekeeper_Do_First_Place_With_Ubw_Dreadstill.html

Well, the article was a good read!

With Both Bob and Standstill you probably find a way to draw cards and that's good. Unfortunately slots in this deck are really tight, I agree that Jace must be played and Peacekeeper sounds like an interesting tech!
Onyways having 2 Daze and 2 Spell Snare looks quite random.. Also from my experience the deck really benefits from a 4th Counterbalance, but as I already mentioned the slots are really tight.

Anyways congrats on the solid list and on the finish!

[Jackehehe]

If you want to see what I have been doing with Dreadstill lately, this article might be worth reading.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/20086_Whats_Peacekeeper_Do_First_Place_With_Ubw_Dreadstill.html


woah, nice and VERY interesting read! we definately need to have a discussion going around this SB plan, with the rise of emrakul decks and having no real sollution to tribal decks. Maybe this is it? also, running confidant with top is just great!

[Razorwynd]

I would imagine that the peacekeeper is a pretty strong strategy against the UG survival deck as well...

[deadlock]

One question regarding the number of Engineered Explosives, i agree that 1 EE is enough in the maindeck, but i feel a little bit uncomfortable with no further EEs in the board. Most concerning is a resolved Chalice for two, as your only additional cards against it are Spell Pierces. With the current metagame in mind it might work out okay i guess.

I will definitly test your list, it looks very well rounded and thought through - great job!

[The Atog Lord]

I'd certainly like having another Engineered Explosives. But sideboard space is hard to find. Until the metagame shifts to really mandate that second EE, I don't see how to fit it in.

[BKclassic]

All right, so Peacekeeper is obviously the future. Having one card that really sticks it to Merfolk, Show and Tell, Ichorid and U/G Madness, Reanimator and to a much lesser extent Dragon Stompy is awesome.

So Rich's deck is pretty awesome, but I have a couple of problems with it.
-I really hate running 4 Dreadnoughts with only 5 Stifle effects. Having Dreadnoughts stuck in the hand is the worst.
-Running only 2 Daze and 2 Spell Snare isn't very much countermagic. I have always liked 6 counterspells besides Force, and 5 is about the minimum I can accept.
-Only 1 EE between the MD and SB.
-Having a two color manabase would mean more basics.
-A White anti aggro card that synergized well with Peacekeeper might make cutting Perish a more reasonable possibility.
These factors left me wanting the stability Uw version over Dark Confidant. So I was thinking about something like this:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard: 15
1 Plains
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Jace
4 Perimeter Captain
3 Peacekeeper
3 Spell Pierce

The only thing I changed in the MD from a normal deck version is -1 Standstill, +1 EE, since we don't have that many answers to Counterbalance, and there wasn't much room in the SB for it. The big question for me is, what should the sideboard look like? Specifically, how is the aggro match up going to be dealt with?

Perimeter Captain seems good against Zoo and Goblins. Against Goblins, he will eat primarily Weirding but possibly other removal that would hit Dreadnoughts and Peacekeeper, all the while warding off Goblin Lackey and gaining life. Against Zoo, he will buy time and hopefully eat Path to Exile (Zoo often sides out their burn for REBs and Grips against us, so its better than you might think). I figure you don't bring The Captain in against Merfolk, since their creatures will probably be unblockable and they don't have any removal we need to deal with.

Peacekeeper makes Perimeter Captain significantly better against Goblins and Zoo since our opponent's removal will be at a premium in those match-ups, hopefully making up for the shortcomings of The Captain not being Swords to Plowshares.

Pithing Needle obviously gets Vial and other typical targets, but it also seems to me that a mixture of Needle, Crypt, Relic, Counterbalance, Jace and most importantly Peacekeeper could somehow get you there against Lands.

I really like that this deck has 3 Spell Pierce in the board. Ur Dreadstill didn't really have space for Spell Pierce in the sideboard (if you wanted Lightning Bolt, ReB and Perish, also) which made Ancient Tomb and Combo matchups tougher than I would like. However, with Peacekeeper, REB isn't needed for Merfolk so we can run Spell Pierce guilt free. Huzzah!

-Any thoughts on Perimeter Captain? Suggestions for other cards that are good against both Zoo and Goblins? Ideally something better then Swords to Plowshares, since that card isn't the best answer to the Goblins matchup.
-This deck should definitely run another non-Tundra-blue-dual, and a 1-2 card splash in the SB of that color would be acceptable, but what color? Tropical Island and Krosan Grip would be sweet since we don't have much in the board against them, however Jace would become that Krosan Grip, and I am not sure if Grip is better than Jace. Underground Sea could bring Perish. Volcanic Island would ideally be used for a card that was good against a deck that didn't run wasteland, making Firespout a somewhat suboptimal candidate (plus it isn't great with the Peacekeeper strategy), but perhaps there is something better. Maybe just Crucible of Worlds and a random dual.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Just a quick note to say i played Rich's list at a small local tourney (with only a couple of changes in the sideboard: a fourth StP and E.E. for a Relic and something else). We only played four rounds of swiss, finishing 4-0 more or less comfortably. The matchups were as follows:

R1 vs Belcher (2-0): these were basically two no-games where he mulliganed a lot and i was playing counterspells...

R2 vs Rock (2-0): turn two Dreadnought on game one and he had no answer. A turn two Bob won me game two going all the way whilst giving me stupid card advantage all the way.

R3 vs SuiBlack (2-0): Exactly the same as the previous round. Peacekeeper would have been great in this matchup since i only need to protect it from Smother but it only occured to me after presenting my deck. But Top + Dark Confidant was good enough anyway.

R4 vs Survival Madness (2-0): I sideboarded out all Dreadnoughts and went for the Peacekeeper plan with Bob as card advantage engine. My opponent didn't expect Peacekeeper and couldn't do anything about it. Then it was just a matter of resolving Jace.

Not the strongest meta but the deck was just perfect. Although the number of counterspells is too low, as BKclassic mentioned, the card advantage provided by Dark Confidant makes up for it.

[deadlock]

On second thought i really would like to see the second EE in here. Not because of Chalice, but because of CB and its versatilty against all kinds of stuff.

To make room in the board i currently see two possibilties:
- Cut Spell Pierce down to 2: I vie SP as the most cuttable card in the board. The remaining two can be swapped with either Daze or Spell Snare after boarding. Ofcourse its nice to have three but is the third stronger than an EE? As mentioned the deck is low on answers to resolved permanents (outside of creatures), therefore the EE might be better.

- Move the SB Plains to the maindeck by cutting a Mishars F.: In my opinion it is okay to run just 3 Mishras with only 3 Standstills. Only problem is that their internal synergy (the pump effect) gets weaker.


Regarding BK's post:
-I do think that the 4 FoW + 4 additional CS setup is okay. Especially with the insane amounts of draw this versions features. The total number of CS is three less compared to the first Ur build (4 Daze / 3 Snare), but there 4 more cards, which let you draw faster through your deck (+3 Bob, +2 Jace, -1 Standstill).

-Three colours is not really unstable here, the three basic Island (instead of just one or zero) are a testament of this. It also increases the power of EE as a sideeffect. Perimeter Captain does not fullfil the same role as Perish, as it doesnt stop a larger Goyf, Knight or Vore. Gaining life that way is not bad, but overall i think that the card is a little bit underpowered.

[The Atog Lord]

Good to see such a healthy discussion.

Regarding the stability of the manabase, I've not had an issue with that. Having Black means having Dark Confidant, and he does a lot to ensure that you make all your land drops. I fear that, if Black were cut, the manabase would in fact become less consistent.

BK: Your concept is to cut draw from the deck to add more of all of the non-draw types of cards. You want to have more counters, more combo pieces (Stifles), and more stable mana. But having draw in the deck lets you run smaller numbers of all of these types of cards. More draw lets you have fewer counters, fewer combo pieces, and be a bit more aggressive with the manabase. I have more more counters and more mana in the sideboard, actually. But for the maindeck, these have been sufficient.

I doubt that Perimeter Captain is the way to go. He's worse than Swords since they can just remove him. Swords has value against many decks, including decks like Merfolk which can nullify Perimeter Captain via Lord of Atlantis. And against Burn, I like the idea of being able to run out a Dreadnought, stack its self-removal ability, and then eat it for 12 life.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi guys i think i am gonnat raise Dreadstill again the next days since i like the deck a tad more than UGR Tempo i played al lot the last year. Is UR getting unatractive at the current metagame? (past GenCon etc) i think i prefer the UR build over the UGR build at the moment but i am not able/willable to put Jace in this Deck its awesome but when i tested it i rarely played it.

I like the UBW list but i am actually out of $ at the moment so i can't affort Usea/Tundra and stuck at the 3 colors above.
First list i would give a try (recently untested):

3 Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Predict
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered explosives
3 senseis divining top
3 Counterbalance
1 Trickbind

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishras factory
3 Island

Sideboard will be posted when i am sure how to set up the maindeck. I liked the idea of predict and found it as pretty usefull to this deck but i din't want to cut standstill completly as its a powerhouse for this deck so i made a 2/3 split hoping i can draw into each other.
I use Vendilion Clique at the 2 slots the other people use jace at the moment but i explained why and also clique isn't bad at all.

[Ludwitch]

I am thinking about taking Dreadstill to a local tournament. Now, I was wondering and I am asking for your opinion: What do you guys think about engineered plague in the sideboard? I never see it in a list, but it is good against merfolk and goblins.

[Rico Suave]

I'm not understanding why people feel it necessary to run multiple copies of EE. The card is quite handy as a 1-of in the instances we wish Trinket Mage to remove something on the board, but in my experience there are not a great many instances where we want to perform this action twice in one game. Certainly, I cannot remember the last time I lost a game because I had access to only one EE. I think a card like Pithing Needle goes a long way in helping the EE out, considering we can use Needle as a veritable answer to many permanents such as Survival of the Fittest or perhaps an enemy Planeswalker.

[The Atog Lord]

but it is good against merfolk and goblins.

Are you saying this because you actually tested it against Merfolk and saw that it was good? Or did you just read the card, decide that you think it would be good, and then tell us that it was be good by fiat?

Plague is bad against Merfolk. Merfolk runs about 12 cards that cost the same as Plague, counteract Plague, and can arrive free of charge via Vial.

[Tangle.Wire]

I think for this deck Earthquake and Firespout are the sweepers for the meerfolk matchup or? Even infest and pyroclasm seemed to be more than poor when i tested them.

[deadlock]

You are right, for Ur(g) builds Spout is the best..
Instead of asking this you just could have read a couple of pages back, Rich is even mentioning it in his article. Same applies to the question about a good Ur build, just read the thread.
To make my post worthwhile i comment on your list directly. Look into your blue source count, its extremly low with just 13 sources, cut a Wasteland, Mishras or add another land. Predict looks underpowered, but i havnt tested it. Clique is a good card, but i dont know if it is what the decks needs. Just thinking about it, its stronger against combo and control, both matchups were help is not as needed as against Zoo or Merfolk.

Concerning EE, i am really torn about this, but my gut feeling tells me that having only 1 answer to a resolved CB is too few, especially because it is counterable (compared to Grip). But EE is more than that, it can clear Zoo's 1 mana creatures easily and helps against Chalice - its just so versatile that i am currently thinking that it is stronger than the 3rd Spell Pierce.

[Tangle.Wire]

@deadlock thanks for the advice, for myself i said clique is just as long i don't own jace as i like him in this deck but i don't wanna compare clique to it it was just the 2nd best choice for the 2 slots i think. What would you suggest instead of explosives for the maindeck to answer permanents? i personally like echoing truth or rushing river but explosives seems to be much better.

[BKclassic]

UWb Dreadstill take 2: Dreaded Jace

3 Waste
3 Factory
3 Tundra
1 Sea
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 Island
1 Plains

4 Naught
3 Mage

4 FoW
2 Daze
3 Snare
2 TB
4 Stifle

3 Jace
3 CB
3 Top
4 BS

1 EE
3 STP

SB
3 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pierce
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

Okay, so at the cost of standstill and dark confidant from Rich's list you get:
-A great mana base
-Plains and STP aren't relegated to the sideboard/Meddling Mage is awesome in the board.
-I always wanted to see Jace more when I only ran 2. Also, let's be serious, Jace is way better when you have some STPs to protect him with.
-Deep down we all know running Standstill with no removal is a terrible idea. No more drawing Standstill when your opponent has threats, especially Aether Vial.

Some subtleties:
-Meddling Mage fits extra nicely in this deck for a few reasons. It improves our lagging game against combo since we cut standstill for removal. It is a great card to board Naughts out for against heavy control and combo. It is another exciting way to protect Peaceleeper.
-The lower then average amount of 2 drops for counterbalance is compensated for by the 3rd Spell Snare. Also, Daze and Trickbind are boarded out frequently, having Meddling Mage in the SB also prevents the 2 drop count from getting to low.
-Cutting a Factory for a Plains makes sense with Standstill cut, since you are less dependant on them.

I am not saying it is the best, but I think it is a reasonable option if you really like Jace and MD removal. Its at least better then the last one.

[Tangle.Wire]

/edit read on..

[Tangle.Wire]

I played a my first little tournament since 5 month and about 1 year since i have played dreadstill, the list i took was:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

3 S.d.top
3 counterbalance
4 stifle
4 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 predict
2 rushing river
1 engineered explosives

3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 wasteland
6 fetchlands
4 island

sideboard:

2 krosan grip
3 pyroblast
2 tormods crypt
1 engineered explosives
2 sower of temptation
2 lightning bolt
3 firespout

The deck played amasing, but we only played 4 games so i can't say that much about a meta or anything at all but i tested the deck beside the tournament too so i had about 10+ games to check the gameplay. I faced:

Dragon Stomp 1:2
BGW control 2:1
UWG control/Bant? 2:1
Goblins 2:0

The Dragon Stompy matchup was terrible as usual i lost to moon effects while countering the first one all the time followed by a second one. The BGW game was great while i had 2 firespouts on 3:1 the deck just lost to the card advantage of predicts/top. Also Sower was great for the first time i played it on a tournament in every game i saw it.The Goblin game was weird as his list included multiple korsan grip/persih but i was lucky going on with stifle/wasteland both games.

I think for the decklist i am very happy i am going to change:

- 2 Rushing River
- 3 Spell pierce

+ 2 Control Magic (don't have jace at the moment)
+ 3 Daze

And what really keeps me sleeples at night even after testing is 3 Trinket 2 Dreadnought or otherwise? i always feel like 2 noughts are more than enough as i throw stifles into fetchlands/random stuff and don't run trickbind anymore but with 2 noughts i have this psychic barrier in my had that says "don't drop dreadnought you only have 2"

Sideboard:

2 Rushing River
1 Engineered explosives
3 pyroblast
3 lightning bolt
2 sower of temptation
3 firespout
1 tormods crypt

I still have the 4 spell snares but today i didn't need any of those, lightning bolt and predicts where great, i am not sure if i keep grips as i used rushing river a lot against planeswalker or multiple creatures. Stifle/Wasteland also was the way to go on 80% of the games today reminding me a lot of people said this plan would be terrible at these days :)

For the Carddraw i really would like to have jace but i am not going to invest more than 50$ for magic in the future so i will play without (maybe i run the old ones just to kill them)
Predict was a lot better than Standstill for the UGR build, it enables #4 wasteland and is a lot more flexible as i thought before i played it by myself. I had a lot of situations where i feld like i resolved standstill with instand speed.

[ryl417]

Hi, new to The Source, love this deck. I know it's a turn 2 clock but do you think Tezzeret could be a worthy inclusion in this deck?

[jazzykat]

Hi, new to The Source, love this deck. I know it's a turn 2 clock but do you think Tezzeret could be a worthy inclusion in this deck?

Hello and welcome! I can't see a reason to use him. Care to elaborate on why you proposed it?

[sa17dk]

And what really keeps me sleeples at night even after testing is 3 Trinket 2 Dreadnought or otherwise? i always feel like 2 noughts are more than enough as i throw stifles into fetchlands/random stuff and don't run trickbind anymore but with 2 noughts i have this psychic barrier in my had that says "don't drop dreadnought you only have 2"


I personally like going 3 Dreadnought and 3 Trinket Mage. The Trinket Mage fetches your Dreadnoughts, Crypts, Relics, Tops, EE's, etc which is awesome. I always felt that 4 Dreadnoughts forced to run too many Stifle effects. I'd rather drop to 3 Dreadnoughts and run the Trinket Mages which are far more useful than the two Trickbind/Vision Charms you would have to run.

3 is good because you dont get that "oh shit I only have 2 Noughts I cant waste one" feeling.

[Jackehehe]

I'm currently looking for some info regarding standstill vs predict in aggro-heavy meta (tribal aggro, mind you, merfolk, goblin, zoo).

I was very relieved when a substitute for standstill was found - enter predict, since I never liked Mishra's in this deck. However, with the increase of tribal aggro in my meta I'm considering going back to standstill and mishras because I figured it would be a good way to handle aggro, especially goblins. Admittably, I'm not the most experienced standstill player and thus I ask for guidance in this matter; is running the standstill/mishra package a good way to handle these deck types?

I'm running the peacekeeper sideboard but its simply not enough. I always find myself at a crossroad: stabilize with CBtop to support peacekeeper/jace/nought (which often takes too long) or try to rush peacekeeper/jace/nought without support of CBtop, often resulting in removal, counter or painful burn. Its either enhancing my SB further towards aggro, that would mean 1 more STP, 1-2 path at the cost of losing either GY hate or spell pierces (I am not sure how much I need any of it), or simply go back to standstills and mishra's.

feedback appreciated!

[ryl417]

Hello and welcome! I can't see a reason to use him. Care to elaborate on why you proposed it?

Thanks for the welcome! I had initially thought he may be useful for games that run slightly a little longer than expected as he can help with untapping 2 noughts after swinging and searching out Explosives, Needle, etc but come to think about it, 4 Trinket Mages should be more than enough :)

[ryl417]

I personally like going 3 Dreadnought and 3 Trinket Mage. The Trinket Mage fetches your Dreadnoughts, Crypts, Relics, Tops, EE's, etc which is awesome. I always felt that 4 Dreadnoughts forced to run too many Stifle effects. I'd rather drop to 3 Dreadnoughts and run the Trinket Mages which are far more useful than the two Trickbind/Vision Charms you would have to run.

3 is good because you dont get that "oh shit I only have 2 Noughts I cant waste one" feeling.

Agreed, Stifles can come in pretty useful when not saving it's use for noughts, but as noughts are the kill condition, maxing them out would be wiser?

[Beware]

Honestly, I've liked 2 'Noughts with 3 Trinket Mage. That "I only have two 'Noughts" feeling goes a long way to keeping me from overextending and reduce the likelihood of needing a 'Nought without a Stifle or vice versa. A lot of the times it will be better to grab a Top or an EE anyways. With as much draw power this deck has with Mage you'd be surprised how often one can get it at the proper time.

My issue right now is what to pull to fit Jace. Jace is really good in this deck, but I don't know if cutting countermagic is a good call. For what it's worth, this is what I'm currently running:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
Creatures [5]

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
Spells [33]

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
Lands [22]

SIDEBOARD
3 Peacekeeper
1 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God

62 cards because I just can't make a decision one way or another as to what cards need to go. The deck doesn't usually have them in (it was exactly the same minus one land, plus one Crucible of Worlds), but I feel they have a place here. I'm also debating whether or not a splash of red would be desirable for REB or Firespout out of 'Board.

I'm thinking I should cut a Brainstorm and a Basic Island, but I feel that could be a mistake with an added 4 CMC card. Jace's free 'Storms can make up for that, but cutting a land seems bad.

[keys]

Played at the Knight Ware 42 man tourney yesterday and went 3-2-1 against UBG Jacestill, Reanimator, ANT, Dragon Stompy, Affinity, and Enchantress.

I used Rich Shay's Uwb list with some tweaks:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Rich's list originally had 4, but I went with the 3rd Jace)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (went with this over the 2/2 SS/Daze split)
1 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

3 Jace, the Mind Sculpter (went up to 3)

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins (instead of the 4th Factory)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Island

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Perish
3 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Plains

The list has a LOT of 3s which looks terrible on paper but it seemed to be consistent enough with the considerable amount of card draw in Confidant/Standstill/Jace, and it's usually best not to see doubles. The Spell Snares were not as good as I expected, but I never faced Survival (which in testing was a heavily favorable matchup post-board). I felt like there weren't quite enough answers in the maindeck. A Rushing River or something similar might be necessary to deal with any problematic permanents that escape counters. I was fine without creature removal game 1 since Nought is always a faster clock. That said, all of my observations can probably be attributed to the fact that I hardly played any aggro all day. The Academy would have been gold against Enchantress if not for resolved Choke every game. Hence the need for something like RR.

Round 1: 0-2 against UGB Jace-still... not a favorable matchup. Couldn't set up CBTop through his counter wall. He landed Jace first in both games. I never drew the Pierces in my SB. Pithing Needle on Jace and a Stifle on P Deed bought be some time but he drew too many cards for me to fight.

Round 2: 1-2 against Reanimator. Opponent kept a no land hand game 1 and ripped lands off the top 2 turns in a row. I mulliganed no land hands 3 times. Kept a risky 5-card Stifle Nought, no counter hand one game. He had turn 1 Duress every game and lucksacked the right color lands (he was playing budget with basics). Iona on blue both games kills me. Not happy about this round.

Round 3: 2-0 against ANT/TES (not sure which, he never got going). Early CBtop game 1, early Nought game 2.

Round 4: 2-1 against Dragon Stompy. He kills me game one with 2 of the 5/5 morphs, and locks me out before I can drop Nought. Games 2-3 I win off of Jace + Trinket Mages as blockers for his Maguses, with Blood Moon, 3 Sphere, and Chalice@1 all in play. Sometimes Jace just gets there...

Round 5: 2-0 Affinity. Early CBTop lock game 1, and I Wasteland his mana sources game 2. Spell Snare is pretty good against Cranial Plating.

Round 6: 1-1 draw against Enchantress. Game 1 I get CBTop down and protect it from Aura of Silence. Nought shows up, I FoW his Moat, and pay 2 to beat through Elephant Grass. Game 2 I keep 4 land, Stifle, Nought, Pithing Needle, while he mulls to 5. He plays Sterling Grove and I needle it. Stifle/Nought and he topdecks the Aura of Silence anyway. Balls. At one point he has an Aura of Silence in play, a Runed Halo naming Jace, and a Choke in play. I finally get 2 untapped blue/white sources and 4 colorless, to play EE for 2 and pop it. I ramp Jace up to 13, and the next turn he apparently draws Words of War off the top, so when Jace goes ultimate he doesn't deck himself and I have no way to remove it since my only EE is in my graveyard and I don't have any more colored lands in my deck to be able to recur it with Academy and play it at 3. Wow. Game 3 goes to time.

Dragon Stompy and Enchantress are played by sadists. They never put up results and only serve to ruin the day of random players.

All in all, I really like the deck, and I REALLY wanted to play against Merfolk or Survival with the Peacekeepers which were incredible in testing. Oh well... next time.

[Beware]

How has the one Trickbind been? I, honestly, wouldn't feel comfortable without 6 Stifle were I to be running 3 'Noughts. And what of the third Jace? It seems like you only need 2 with all that draw power you have (though it seems like it was a house for you at that tournament).

[keys]

How has the one Trickbind been? I, honestly, wouldn't feel comfortable without 6 Stifle were I to be running 3 'Noughts. And what of the third Jace? It seems like you only need 2 with all that draw power you have (though it seems like it was a house for you at that tournament).

Trickbind just isn't good enough to be run as a 2-of IMO. It's fantastic at catching greedy players who hold their counters for the 2-for-1, but it's too slow for most situations. I never really had trouble finding Nought or Stifle when I wanted it. 3 Nought/5 Stifle has worked for me.

You need to draw Jace when you play Peacekeeper. And it's just so good. No reason not to play 4.

[PanderAlexander]

Played at the Knight Ware 42 man tourney yesterday and went 3-2-1 against UBG Jacestill, Reanimator, ANT, Dragon Stompy, Affinity, and Enchantress.

I used Rich Shay's Uwb list with some tweaks:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Rich's list originally had 4, but I went with the 3rd Jace)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (went with this over the 2/2 SS/Daze split)
1 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

3 Jace, the Mind Sculpter (went up to 3)

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins (instead of the 4th Factory)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Island

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Perish
3 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Plains

The list has a LOT of 3s which looks terrible on paper but it seemed to be consistent enough with the considerable amount of card draw in Confidant/Standstill/Jace, and it's usually best not to see doubles. The Spell Snares were not as good as I expected, but I never faced Survival (which in testing was a heavily favorable matchup post-board). I felt like there weren't quite enough answers in the maindeck. A Rushing River or something similar might be necessary to deal with any problematic permanents that escape counters. I was fine without creature removal game 1 since Nought is always a faster clock. That said, all of my observations can probably be attributed to the fact that I hardly played any aggro all day. The Academy would have been gold against Enchantress if not for resolved Choke every game. Hence the need for something like RR.

Round 1: 0-2 against UGB Jace-still... not a favorable matchup. Couldn't set up CBTop through his counter wall. He landed Jace first in both games. I never drew the Pierces in my SB. Pithing Needle on Jace and a Stifle on P Deed bought be some time but he drew too many cards for me to fight.

Round 2: 1-2 against Reanimator. Opponent kept a no land hand game 1 and ripped lands off the top 2 turns in a row. I mulliganed no land hands 3 times. Kept a risky 5-card Stifle Nought, no counter hand one game. He had turn 1 Duress every game and lucksacked the right color lands (he was playing budget with basics). Iona on blue both games kills me. Not happy about this round.

Round 3: 2-0 against ANT/TES (not sure which, he never got going). Early CBtop game 1, early Nought game 2.

Round 4: 2-1 against Dragon Stompy. He kills me game one with 2 of the 5/5 morphs, and locks me out before I can drop Nought. Games 2-3 I win off of Jace + Trinket Mages as blockers for his Maguses, with Blood Moon, 3 Sphere, and Chalice@1 all in play. Sometimes Jace just gets there...

Round 5: 2-0 Affinity. Early CBTop lock game 1, and I Wasteland his mana sources game 2. Spell Snare is pretty good against Cranial Plating.

Round 6: 1-1 draw against Enchantress. Game 1 I get CBTop down and protect it from Aura of Silence. Nought shows up, I FoW his Moat, and pay 2 to beat through Elephant Grass. Game 2 I keep 4 land, Stifle, Nought, Pithing Needle, while he mulls to 5. He plays Sterling Grove and I needle it. Stifle/Nought and he topdecks the Aura of Silence anyway. Balls. At one point he has an Aura of Silence in play, a Runed Halo naming Jace, and a Choke in play. I finally get 2 untapped blue/white sources and 4 colorless, to play EE for 2 and pop it. I ramp Jace up to 13, and the next turn he apparently draws Words of War off the top, so when Jace goes ultimate he doesn't deck himself and I have no way to remove it since my only EE is in my graveyard and I don't have any more colored lands in my deck to be able to recur it with Academy and play it at 3. Wow. Game 3 goes to time.

Dragon Stompy and Enchantress are played by sadists. They never put up results and only serve to ruin the day of random players.

All in all, I really like the deck, and I REALLY wanted to play against Merfolk or Survival with the Peacekeepers which were incredible in testing. Oh well... next time.

Sucks man that you ran in to whacky matchups, especially that budget reanimator in round 2. It's so important to win the first and second rounds to keep getting paired with the tier decks. My friend heavily metagamed for survival/vengevine and merfolk yet he didn't run in to any either because he lost the first round and got paired against exactly the same matchups as you (I.E. affinity, dragon stompy, enchantress). Tons of survival and merfolk at the tournament, survival/vengevine and 4 merfolk (I was one of them) in the top 8.

[Sims]

Dragon Stompy and Enchantress are played by sadists. They never put up results and only serve to ruin the day of random players..

Hey, I resemble that remark. Difference is ontop of ruining players days, I've actually been tearing apart my meta left and right with that deck for a few weeks. Probably going to have to shelve it soon though, I think people are going to be sick of losing to blood moon and trinisphere and start changing decks.

On a more productive note:

How has Peacekeeper been? It's something I've wanted to test as a board option in some decks, to delay Vengevines until I can find an appropriate answer, for instance, but i've been worried about tying up mana and the like. Hasn't really been a problem for you?

[Beware]

Peacekeeper is simply the way of the future. It's excellent.

[keys]

How has Peacekeeper been? It's something I've wanted to test as a board option in some decks, to delay Vengevines until I can find an appropriate answer, for instance, but i've been worried about tying up mana and the like. Hasn't really been a problem for you?

Tying up mana isn't really the problem, it's being able to protect it. Peacekeeper won't work in decks running green, because both UG Madness and Merfolk often play Submerge. But in a deck like Uwb Dreadstill, it's solid.

It's not easy to decide which decks you want to bring it in against. Right now I would say Merfolk (but not W or R splash), UG Madness, Mono Green Survival, Goblins, and Dredge are all on the list, but lots of testing will tell for sure.

I may try to squeeze 2 Vindicate in the SB for all the random decks in my meta, because I don't know what I would take out of the maindeck for something like Rushing River.

[Rood]

Hibernation anyone? I couldn't think of running any less then 3 in this given meta SB. Also I think that everyone needs to be maindecking 4 Spell Snares at the moment. The card is wayyyy too good now with all these Survival decks running rampant.

[keys]

Hibernation anyone? I couldn't think of running any less then 3 in this given meta SB. Also I think that everyone needs to be maindecking 4 Spell Snares at the moment. The card is wayyyy too good now with all these Survival decks running rampant.

Whiplash Trap is decent too, although more narrow. It only bounces Vengevine, that way they can't just replay everything next turn (and it only costs U!). However if you're splashing black, Perish is generally more useful, especially against GW.

[lorddotm]

Whiplash Trap is decent too, although more narrow. It only bounces Vengevine, that way they can't just replay everything next turn (and it only costs U!). However if you're splashing black, Perish is generally more useful, especially against GW.

Normally I would agree with you. In this case, Hibernation also gets rid of Survival and gets their Vengevines where they really don't want them to be, their hands. Hibernation is vastly superior against Survival than Perish. Although it is worse in almost every other case. (It also would've been good again that Enchantress deck :P)

[Rood]

Yeah, Perish is complete garbage against Vengevine recursion unfortunately atm. Hibernation like lord said not only handles Vengevines back to their hand, but it also slays out their Survivals...Mongrels etc etc. It's a complete board hoser. Also clears the way for Standstill to destroy.

[Beware]

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [2]

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
Creatures [5]

3 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
Spells [31]

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
Lands [22]

SIDEBOARD
3 Peacekeeper
1 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God

So this is the list on which I think I've decided. I cut one Brainstorm for a fourth Spell Snare because it's just so good against so much of the meta and pulled Daze down to 1. I feel like Daze is generally too good to cut, but it definitely seems to be the weakest of the cards in the deck (which is seriously saying something). Also, contemplating replacing WoG in the 'Board with Hibernation, but Wrath is good in a lot of non-Survival MUs.

[keys]

Yeah, Perish is complete garbage against Vengevine recursion unfortunately atm. Hibernation like lord said not only handles Vengevines back to their hand, but it also slays out their Survivals...Mongrels etc etc. It's a complete board hoser. Also clears the way for Standstill to destroy.

True, but they don't draw Survival every game. Those other games you're going to get beat down by flying [non-green] Mongrels and Rootwallas (or Goyfs and Knights in the GW version, which is the better of the two IMO). Those are pretty easy to replay [and retrigger Vengevine].

@Beware: I like your Uw version. I'm not sure about the Wraths, either. You might benefit from +1 Nought/Trickbind. I would probably up the fetchland count and add the 4th Brainstorm as well... it's just too good.

[Beware]

I don't really see the point of more fetch lands. The deck thinning is never as relevant as people seem to think and 4 provides the right amount of fixing just fine.

Brainstorm is great, but the fourth spell snare is just better in this meta.

The thing about a third Dreadnought is I would only be comfortable with 2 more Trickbind (6 total Stifles). Then I am back at square one trying to figure out what to cut and have weakened the control element by cutting counterspells. I'd rather have a StifleNought always with counter backup instead of more of them and be forced to throw one in front of the bus.

I'm not 100% on the WoG either (haven't gotten a chance to test that), but it seems like it could be really good against Fish and Zoo in the Jace slot. Something like Hibernation is good, but it just seems too narrow.

[keys]

The extra fetchlands are wanted for SDT/Brainstorm. You could drop 2 Islands or a Tundra and an Island.

[Dark Ritual]

Like keys said fetches + brainstorm/SDTare just too good to pass up. The thinning is relevant in longer games and if you run counterbalance you NEED fetchlands to abuse it to the fullest like if CB triggers you look at the top 3 and the cmc isn't there you can shuffle it up with a fetchland, peek at the top 3 again, then maybe counter the spell because you just looked at 6 different cards probably.

The plan against VV survival is extirpate, pithing needle, and spell snare alongside FoW and daze of course. Or a super fast clock in dreadnought because they aren't like traditional survival where they pack silver bullets like uktabi orangutan to fetch up and turn 2 dreadnought against them is basically GGs most of the time.

[Beware]

I'll do some testing with some more fetches, but I don't really think I can fit another 'Nought and two Trickbinds nor can I condone the use of a fourth Brainstorm instead of a fourth Spell Snare.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

Pretty new to the boards, but have been spending time reading this thread and some others, and was wondering why not use enlightened tutor over the trinket mages in the the deck, as it gives us moat SB and other 1 of that we can more likely grap as well as it finds counterbalance.

I have been testing it in the Uwb deck that rich posted with no spell snares and use spell pierce over it (just works better for my meta) and there have been games were i have counterbalance in play and go grap my moat/jace and stick it on top to counter there 4 mana spell, or a standstill for there daze/counterspells. Is trinket mage kept in as a 3 mana top target as well as being a tutor effect?

Also been running vindicates in the SB and are simply amazing in some match ups like the vengvine deck with taking out there survival and such.

I will post a list up later but i still tweak it to much to have a main list.

[keys]

Krevvy;497484']Pretty new to the boards, but have been spending time reading this thread and some others, and was wondering why not use enlightened tutor over the trinket mages in the the deck, as it gives us moat SB and other 1 of that we can more likely grap as well as it finds counterbalance.

I have been testing it in the Uwb deck that rich posted with no spell snares and use spell pierce over it (just works better for my meta) and there have been games were i have counterbalance in play and go grap my moat/jace and stick it on top to counter there 4 mana spell, or a standstill for there daze/counterspells. Is trinket mage kept in as a 3 mana top target as well as being a tutor effect?

Also been running vindicates in the SB and are simply amazing in some match ups like the vengvine deck with taking out there survival and such.

I will post a list up later but i still tweak it to much to have a main list.

Trinket Mage is vastly superior to E tutor in this deck because it's card advantage instead of disadvantage, and our primary targets are 1cc or less anyway (Nought, Top, EE, Needle, Crypt, etc.). The extra body is helpful at protecting Jace, or circumventing edict effects. Nought costs two cards, so the extra draw is necessary to match your opponent when games draw out. Part of the philosophy of the deck is that a 12/12 trampler will normally outclass your opponent's threats, so you don't have to devote too much card space to controlling creatures (and Moat seems worse than Peacekeeper in the right build, due to the popularity of Wonder and other fliers). Essentially, E tutor slows down the deck too much to be a benefit.

As you said, additional 3cc spells are also welcome because Krosan Grip can really ruin our day.

Hope my thoughts are concise enough... and welcome to the forums :)

[sdematt]

I've been playing this deck for a while, but have taken a break lately and played Landstill and some other decks. It seems to me, at least by showings,been playing the that this deck needs some help. I've been playing the list from BoM, and its been working alright. How do we fare against Vengevine?

I'll try to get a list written up and going and post hopefully today or tomorrow with some more ideas. I'll also read through some of the more recent posts when I'm not in class :P
-Matt

[Beware]

White really helps with that MU since it gives you Peacekeeper and StP. Also, I believe spell snare should be an automatic 4-of in this meta.

[keys]

I've decided Standstill is the worst card in Uwb Dreadstill. It's useless in so many matchups. Since my last posted list, I've made the following changes:

-3 Standstill
-3 Mishra's Factory
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculpter (3 was 1 too many, Rich had this right... don't like seeing multiples)

+2 Predict (extra draw to make up for what I cut)
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Daze (up to 2 now)
+1 EE (needed another answer to resolved permanents)
+1 Wasteland
+1 Plains

Now none of my draw requires that I have a favorable board. Confidant is simply insane, the full playset was inevitable. The basic Plains moved into the maindeck from the SB, and now I'm playing a single Vindicate in that spot.

I guess the deck is CounterTop Nought now.


3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Predict
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Perish
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vindicate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

[eyeless]

I've decided Standstill is the worst card in Uwb Dreadstill. It's useless in so many matchups. Since my last posted list, I've made the following changes:

-3 Standstill
-3 Mishra's Factory


for me cuttin standstill is the right way to go.

[Rico Suave]

Standstill can sometimes be a miss, like when playing against Merfolk who resolved an Aether Vial early. Other times, it is invaluable and one of the best cards in the deck.

The problem surfaces that Predict is, quite frankly, an awful card. For all this talk about Standstill being a dead card while losing, people often fail to realize that Predict is simply not good enough to save them from losing situations either.

[Jackehehe]

I'm starting to have more and more doubts about this deck in the current meta. Basically, as soon as I see Aether vial for instance, I cant help but to think "gg". Goblins, merfolks, white weenie are all frequently played decks and I seriously feel I have no chance vs these decks unless I am very lucky pre-board. Post-board odds are considerably better than pre-board but that means we have to win 2 games in a row, all the time. Sure, we can use peacekeeper pre-board but that means countertop lock must be established or the keeper will get plowed by removals otherwise reserved for nought.

I'm considering just going back to normal countertop deck for a while...

[keys]

I'm considering just going back to normal countertop deck for a while...

To what... Goyf? Goyf means you have to play green... which means Peacekeeper/Perish sucks... which means your merfolk and Survival matchups suck. And if you don't play with Goyf, you won't be able to win fast enough with just Jace + Clique.

Nought is good in this meta. Tribal often plays without creature removal. It's a quick clock against a lot of decks that will try to win faster or otherwise grind you out.

@ Rico Suave: Is Predict really worse than Standstill when it comes to drawing cards? My friends and I have discussed this a lot. What we've realized is that one of the cards you get from Standstill is usually dead, so the net draw is about the same, and Predict's conditional requirement is less demanding on the deck. Landstill (with 4-6 manlands) and tribal aggro strategies (with Vial) are just far better at exploiting Standstill.

In any case, Confidant is better than both-- that's why I'm playing 4 of them and 2 Predict.

[Rico Suave]

@ Rico Suave: Is Predict really worse than Standstill when it comes to drawing cards? My friends and I have discussed this a lot. What we've realized is that one of the cards you get from Standstill is usually dead, so the net draw is about the same, and Predict's conditional requirement is less demanding on the deck. Landstill (with 4-6 manlands) and tribal aggro strategies (with Vial) are just far better at exploiting Standstill.

Standstill draws 50% more cards than Predict. 50 is a large percent. Imagine if your income were to increase by 50%, or if your dick were to grow 50% in length and you'll have a better understanding of what I mean.

[keys]

is your dick 3 inches?

But seriously you're only gonna cast predict when u have a top or a brainstorm and in that case you'll just dump the one bad card.

Small sacrifice for instant speed and no board requirement.

[lorddotm]

My friends and I have discussed this a lot. What we've realized is that one of the cards you get from Standstill is usually dead, so the net draw is about the same, and Predict's conditional requirement is less demanding on the deck.


I do not endorse this comment. Drawing three is a LOT better than drawing two. Imagine if Thoughtcast draw 3. It would be the most played deck in the format (Affinity), or at least some sort of deck to abuse it.

[keys]

Again, the difference between 2 cards and one bad card and two cards is negligible.

[Hopo]

Again, the difference between 2 cards and one bad card and two cards is negligible.
Where do you get this "one card is useless" argument? It makes no sense.
By saying that one of the cards drawn from Standstill is useless, is stupid. As well a card from Predict can be useless.

[jazzykat]

Think of it another way. You can force the early threat to drop a Standstill on a clean board. So your transaction looks like this:

+1 Threat of the opponents
-1 FoW
-1 Blue Card (and 1 life but irrelevant for this math)
-1 Standstill
+3 Top Cards

Result: +1 Card

With Predict if you set it up:

+1 Threat of the opponents
-1 FoW
-1 Blue Card (and 1 life but irrelevant for this math)
-1 Predict
+2 Top Cards

Result: 0 Cards with the worst card in the bin, so you dug just as far as Standstill

IF you had a use for getting the card in the bin (E.g. it's LftL, Bloodghast, attaining Threshold, etc.) then Predict would be better. Unfortunately, for Dreadstill raw cards matter when you are a control deck that easily gets 2 for 1ed on its main win condition.

[keys]

I'm using predict as a supplement to Confidant and Jace, not as the only draw engine. Predict already fits naturally with the game plan. Standstill forces you to run mishras.

[lorddotm]

I'm using predict as a supplement to Confidant and Jace, not as the only draw engine. Predict already fits naturally with the game plan. Standstill forces you to run mishras.

Standstill is in fact a terrible card, but recognize that the 1 card difference is pretty big.

PS.

Want to go to Knight Ware today?

[keys]

Where do you get this "one card is useless" argument? It makes no sense.
By saying that one of the cards drawn from Standstill is useless, is stupid. As well a card from Predict can be useless.

Ok maybe that was worded poorly. I just meant that although every card serves a purpose and is inherently valuable, there is always one card that is relatively worse than the others given the current state of the game (unless of course all three cards are identical) and it is often the case that one is not useful at that moment. Both Standstill and Predict refresh the top 3.

I'd also like to point out that Standstill does not interact very well with Spell Snare and Stifle.

[eyeless]

...
I'd also like to point out that Standstill does not interact very well with Spell Snare and Stifle.

thats ture.

[Rico Suave]

Again, the difference between 2 cards and one bad card and two cards is negligible.

The first 8 cards in the deck are 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will. Even if the "bad" card does nothing except pitch to Force or get filtered with Brainstorm, it is very useful. I do not understand how you can draw this conclusion that the difference between 2 and 3 is negligible.

[Hopo]

I'd also like to point out that Standstill does not interact very well with Spell Snare and Stifle.

For Stifle that is true, but what do you mean by addressing Spell Snare? By that logic Force of Will is bad with Standstil, which we all know not to be the case.

If you want to persuade people to try Predict instead of Standstill by arguments, by all means, but please be logical in your argumentation. Now you're just being confusing.

[lorddotm]

Standstill is a terrible card. It will never pull you out of a losing position, it will never save your ass from that one card, and it will never be good against a lot of decks. That being said, drawing three cards is very powerful.

Standstill is only good on a neutral or positive board position, which is not a good thing. Plus, if they have Wastelands and manlands (like Landstill or Merfolk), you will feel very awkward when they answer all your threats and just keep playing them, forcing you to break your own Standstill. Also, if you play Standstill without a threat or a Top out, the EOT break just makes it a waste of a card. The number of times I've seen Standstill be dead is insane, Predict is never dead, ever.

This deck already runs a lot of situational cards (Stifle, Trickbind, and Dreadnought), adding more, in the form of Standstill, seems like a mistake. Predict is a strong card with all of the card filtering that is in this deck. When you cast a Brainstorm or have a Top in play, Predict makes a very good draw 3 impression, which is what I think keys was trying to say (sometimes you get dead cards with Standstill, so not drawing that card doesn't make a huge difference), but it is almost strictly worse than drawing three cards.

In conclusion, Predict is a better card because it can help pull you out of a shitty situation. It also lets you run a less shitty mana base (aka, more basics main, no Mishra's...). Although, because of the loss of Factory, Swords to Plowshares might have to find a way to the main deck.

P.S.


The first 8 cards in the deck are 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will. Even if the "bad" card does nothing except pitch to Force or get filtered with Brainstorm, it is very useful.

This is horrible logic. Following this logic, Levitation is good. IT PITCHES TO FORCE OF WILL, GETS PUT BACK BY BRAINSTORM, AND IS USELESS WHEN YOU'RE LOSING! Running a card solely to not play it is a horrible idea.

P.P.S.


For Stifle that is true, but what do you mean by addressing Spell Snare? By that logic Force of Will is bad with Standstil, which we all know not to be the case.

Is this entire thread completely lacking in logic? Force of Will if good when you drop a Standstill because you don't have to pay mana to counter their card, it is typically a challenge to cast a Spell Snare with no lands untapped. This is only relevant when you have no mana untapped (like when you cast Standstill on turn 2).

Predict lets you cast it at their endstep, meaning you do not have to tap out while they can drop Survival, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, or other, similar cards.

P.P.P.S.

One thing I do want to tell people, Dark Confidant is not the clutch in the Counterbalance mirror. Counterbalance is the best card in that match., I watched someone fight over their Dark Confidant, and then be forced to watch as they cast a Counterbalance and blanked all the extra cards that they drew.

[Rico Suave]

This is horrible logic. Following this logic, Levitation is good. IT PITCHES TO FORCE OF WILL, GETS PUT BACK BY BRAINSTORM, AND IS USELESS WHEN YOU'RE LOSING! Running a card solely to not play it is a horrible idea.


Of course, it is frustrating to try and contribute to this website only to be attacked in such a manner, particularly by someone who has yet to demonstrate an understanding of the logic he is critiquing.

I was not arguing to run sub-optimal cards, I was arguing that drawing 3 cards is better than drawing 2. In this light, the logic is quite simple and is akin to the 2nd grade lesson "3 is greater than 2." Perhaps some references to alligator mouths eating the larger number will help illuminate the idea I am trying to express.

No, what I'm saying is that having a free Levitation in hand is better than not having one at all.

You'll have to understand if I don't care enough right now to go into details about why much of your post is inaccurate.

[lorddotm]

Its all a matter of opinion, I think I'm right and you think I'm not. No worries, you don't have to play Predict, Standstill has been dead for me far too many times.

[affinitypimp]

standstill is why this deck is called Dreastill... so if you want to play predict, maybe you can make a new thread... dont mean to be a dick and all but this is the DREADSTILL thread and stand still is why the deck is called Dreadstill. Im sure Predict is nice and all but it would change the name of the deck to Predictnought or dreadpredict.... no not trying to be funny... sure it sounds funny but its not a joke. This deck is named Dreadstill and should remain Dreadstill

[keys]

Force of Will if good when you drop a Standstill because you don't have to pay mana to counter their card, it is typically a challenge to cast a Spell Snare with no lands untapped. This is only relevant when you have no mana untapped (like when you cast Standstill on turn 2).

Predict lets you cast it at their endstep, meaning you do not have to tap out while they can drop Survival, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, or other, similar cards.
This.


I was arguing that drawing 3 cards is better than drawing 2. In this light, the logic is quite simple and is akin to the 2nd grade lesson "3 is greater than 2." Perhaps some references to alligator mouths eating the larger number will help illuminate the idea I am trying to express.

No, what I'm saying is that having a free Levitation in hand is better than not having one at all.



Thank you Mr. Obvious, but we're trying to determine whether or not the +1 card drawn from Standstill is enough of an advantage over Predict to justify it's drawbacks. I'm arguing that it does not outweigh the drawbacks, and simultaneously that Predict is an underrated substitute. If you followed my reasoning and tested the card, you might come to the same conclusion.


standstill is why this deck is called Dreastill... so if you want to play predict, maybe you can make a new thread... dont mean to be a dick and all but this is the DREADSTILL thread and stand still is why the deck is called Dreadstill. Im sure Predict is nice and all but it would change the name of the deck to Predictnought or dreadpredict.... no not trying to be funny... sure it sounds funny but its not a joke. This deck is named Dreadstill and should remain Dreadstill

This is entirely relevant to Dreadstill discussion. If you read through the thread you would see that it has been for a long time now.


Why don't we create a visual representation of the advantages and disadvantages of Standstill vs. Predict:

Standstill
Advantages:
1. Draws three cards instead of two
2. Refreshes the top three for SDT/Brainstorm
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a board that is in your favor or neutral
2. Weakness against decks with fast creatures (Zoo, Survival), Vial (Goblins, Merfolk, D&T), or more man-lands/Wastelands (Landstill)
3. Pumps Goyf (assuming you're not playing Goyf)
4. Flash creatures can blow you out
5. Sorcery speed
6. Allows opponent to regain tempo lost from Stifle/Wasteland

Predict
Advantages:
1. Refreshes the top three
2. Instant speed
3. Can be used on your opponent to mill SDT, a card tutored with E Tutor/Sterling Grove, or Doomsday piles
4. Can be cycled if conditions aren't met
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a way to manipulate the top 3 (SDT, Jace, Brainstorm)
2. Draws 2 cards instead of 3

Am I missing anything?

[affinitypimp]

This is entirely relevant to Dreadstill discussion. If you read through the thread you would see that it has been for a long time now.

yeah, which is why im saying now that we should keep this organized... i was on here with another name a pretty long time ago and if dreadstill sucks now in any meta... then it should be completely deleted from established decks... but its still an established deck in its own right so we should allow Standstill to be a card that sticks with the deck and not say stupid things like "awwww qq more, predict is better..." "standstill sucks cause its conditional... yeah" IMO, sure play Predeict, its a good card too, but it shouldnt be replacing standstill cause the deck is based on Standstill being the soul of the deck (the draw engine that if u dont know how to use with the deck then u shouldnt be playign this deck).

But seriously, saying that Standstill is conditional is like saying.... Dreadnought is conditional... so we should run another creature that is huge with little to no conditions having to be met (goyf??)

[bowvamp]

This is kind of a ridiculous debate that's going on here. Personally, I'm on the Standstill side of this debate.
Here's the reasons running Standstill is good:
a) +2 CA in a 2 mana spell. This means that you have a significant CA advantage (hopefully) after they break it and therefore have a greater opportunity value (more options = better).
b) while they haven't broken it, you increase opportunity value further by digging for useful cards. The game state is generally not going to change much while it's up (unless they run vial).
Here's why Predict is bad:
a) it digs poorly; the chance that you'll gain CA is incredibly low w/o depending on other mana sinks (card quality).
b) we have no way to use the gy.

What we lose when we run Standstill:
a) instant speed card draw (it's not like brainstorm vs. ponder, this is a very slight difference because it's not card filtering)
b) need to be in a slightly better position to cast it (this actually is a slightly good point if it weren't for the fact that spending 3 mana to draw two cards pretty much = you're winning if you aren't spending it on business) (basically, think of standstill as a win-con/protector of win-con)

When you look at how conditional predict is, I can't really see a reason you'd run it in this deck (1 card is much < 3 cards).

EDIT: woah, two people posted while I was typing this up. need to increase wpm XD

[keys]

This is kind of a ridiculous debate that's going on here. Personally, I'm on the Standstill side of this debate.
Here's the reasons running Standstill is good:

snip

I counted 2 advantages and 6 disadvantages for Standstill, versus 4 advantages and 2 disadvantages for Predict. See my list above.


yeah, which is why im saying now that we should keep this organized... i was on here with another name a pretty long time ago and if dreadstill sucks now in any meta... then it should be completely deleted from established decks... but its still an established deck in its own right so we should allow Standstill to be a card that sticks with the deck and not say stupid things like "awwww qq more, predict is better..." "standstill sucks cause its conditional... yeah" IMO, sure play Predeict, its a good card too, but it shouldnt be replacing standstill cause the deck is based on Standstill being the soul of the deck (the draw engine that if u dont know how to use with the deck then u shouldnt be playign this deck).

But seriously, saying that Standstill is conditional is like saying.... Dreadnought is conditional... so we should run another creature that is huge with little to no conditions having to be met (goyf??)

1. Threads are not removed from Established if they start performing poorly.
2. Standstill is not "the soul of the deck"... closed off thinking like this will guarantee that the deck never evolves.
3. Dreadnought is not conditional in the same way that Standstill is conditional. This is the definition of a weak analogy:
(1) A and B are similar.
(2) A has a certain characteristic.
Therefore:
(3) B must have that characteristic too.


Finally, I just want to reiterate that Dark Confidant is a better draw engine that both, and I advocate running 4. However, I believe that Predict is a better supplement than Standstill is.

[The Atog Lord]

I have tested both Predict and Standstill. Standstill is better. But it is also more difficult to play properly. If played correctly, Standstill will generate better results.

[Dark Ritual]

Standstill can get pitched to FoW if the board state is bad. Or shuffled away with brainstorm if its a dead card. It's a hard card to play optimally but I advocate its inclusion because drawing 3 cards is a lot better than drawing 2 cards and you know what predict needs to be useful? A brainstorm or sensei's divining top which you will not always have in hand so you'll have to wait until you get one of those cards to be able to utilize predict to draw 2. Forcing a turn one threat then dropping standstill is a huge tempo gain or you can stifle their first fetch then drop standstill due to them not being able to play any spells without that one mana. Also of note if they drop nothing turn 1 then try to drop a two drop turn 2 and it gets spell snared then you can drop standstill this being an on the draw case of standstill being a bomb. And I like ancestral recall in legacy.

[bowvamp]

@keys:
Wait, did you literally just count the advantages vs. disadvantages? My point was not meant to be that each of the advantages were equally advantageous, and each of the dis-advantages were equally dis-advantageous. My point was not to pitch one card over the other, rather it was to have a concise list of advantages and disadvantages for each card followed by a description of why I choose standstill.

EDIT: since you were counting the advantages vs. disadvanteges in your (biased) post I will comment on them below:

Advantages:
1. Draws three cards instead of two
2. Refreshes the top three for SDT/Brainstorm
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a board that is in your favor or neutral (not necessarily, just a prospective board position, if standstill buys you the time to stabilize the board with manlands/wastelock/other in the future, it has done its job)
2. Weakness against decks with fast creatures (Zoo, Survival), Vial (Goblins, Merfolk, D&T), or more man-lands/Wastelands (Landstill) (true)
3. Pumps Goyf (assuming you're not playing Goyf) (how much does this actually matter vs. the card advantage difference)
4. Flash creatures can blow you out (I understand where you're getting that, but who plays flash creatures? and clique costs 1 more mana, it's pretty obvious when they're tempo thresh and they've left three mana open after you've done stuff like popped a fetch, basically if you get into this situation make sure you've got stp)
5. Sorcery speed (doesn't matter, at all, why would you consider not casting your draw? if you need more options during their turn, you'd still cast standstill)
6. Allows opponent to regain tempo lost from Stifle/Wasteland (umm actually I'd call this neutral because every turn of tempo that they're gaining, you also will be hitting your land drops and with wastelock down you pretty much make it an advantage) (not to mention it'll refill your hands which will be better for the dreadstill player)

Predict
Advantages:
1. Refreshes the top three
2. Instant speed (doesn't matter, it's draw therefore the only difference would be vs. discard) (if it were about filtering it would be different)
3. Can be used on your opponent to mill SDT, a card tutored with E Tutor/Sterling Grove, or Doomsday piles (honestly, didn't think of that, but how will they cast those cards if you've got a standstill up)
4. Can be cycled if conditions aren't met (this is a disadvantage, when it's cycled that means it is no longer better than... any cantrip... to this deck) (also, it can get countered, although idk why anyone would do that)
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a way to manipulate the top 3 (SDT, Jace, Brainstorm)
2. Draws 2 cards instead of 3

[keys]

My responses in red:


@keys:
Wait, did you literally just count the advantages vs. disadvantages? My point was not meant to be that each of the advantages were equally advantageous, and each of the dis-advantages were equally dis-advantageous. I'm not assuming every advantage or disadvantage is weighted equally. My point was not to pitch one card over the other, rather it was to have a concise list of advantages and disadvantages for each card followed by a description of why I choose standstill. My list is just like your list, except more exhaustive.

EDIT: since you were counting the advantages vs. disadvanteges in your (biased) post I will comment on them below: How am I biased?I am not personally invested in either of these cards, and these are not just my observations.

Advantages:
1. Draws three cards instead of two
2. Refreshes the top three for SDT/Brainstorm
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a board that is in your favor or neutral (not necessarily, just a prospective board position, if standstill buys you the time to stabilize the board with manlands/wastelock/other in the future, it has done its job) - I'm not sure what you're getting at with a "prospective board position". Do you have any examples of when you would play Standstill when the board position is not presently neutral or in your favor, but is likely be favorable in the future? I think what you're referring to is a neutral board position (which, given the construction of your deck, is often easier to abuse, but not always).
2. Weakness against decks with fast creatures (Zoo, Survival), Vial (Goblins, Merfolk, D&T), or more man-lands/Wastelands (Landstill) (true)
3. Pumps Goyf (assuming you're not playing Goyf) (how much does this actually matter vs. the card advantage difference) - I'm not weighting advantages and disadvantages at this point, just listing.
4. Flash creatures can blow you out (I understand where you're getting that, but who plays flash creatures? and clique costs 1 more mana, it's pretty obvious when they're tempo thresh and they've left three mana open after you've done stuff like popped a fetch, basically if you get into this situation make sure you've got stp) - Clique is the 2nd most popular creature in CounterTop, and Spellstutter is played in a variety of decks as well. It's worth mentioning, because it has the potential to ruin you.
5. Sorcery speed (doesn't matter, at all, why would you consider not casting your draw? if you need more options during their turn, you'd still cast standstill) - No because you have to tap out to play it in your main phase, so if your opponent runs out a Survival the next turn, your only outs are FoW and Daze. If it was instant speed, you could leave mana open for Spell Snare.
6. Allows opponent to regain tempo lost from Stifle/Wasteland (umm actually I'd call this neutral because every turn of tempo that they're gaining, you also will be hitting your land drops and with wastelock down you pretty much make it an advantage) (not to mention it'll refill your hands which will be better for the dreadstill player). (Why do you keep saying "wastelock"? This term is generally used to describe Waste + Loam/Crucible.) The deck has a strong land destruction plan in Stifle/Waste, but playing Standstill right afterwards gives up that Tempo gain by allowing your opponent to draw/play more lands. A full hand is not necessarily better for the Dreadstill player (combo players, for example, gain considerably from being able to sculpt their hand). Unless you're applying pressure with a Mishra's (and sometimes even then), a smart player will just let you draw until you have 7, and then Brainstorm/Bolt you/etc. in your end step.

Predict
Advantages:
1. Refreshes the top three
2. Instant speed (doesn't matter, it's draw therefore the only difference would be vs. discard) (if it were about filtering it would be different) - Really?? Maybe you should post in format discussion asking why instant speed draw is superior to sorcery speed, because I don't have the time and space to explain here.
3. Can be used on your opponent to mill SDT, a card tutored with E Tutor/Sterling Grove, or Doomsday piles (honestly, didn't think of that, but how will they cast those cards if you've got a standstill up) - Standstill doesn't prevent anyone from casting anything! You're assuming Standstill will give you a counter.
4. Can be cycled if conditions aren't met (this is a disadvantage, when it's cycled that means it is no longer better than... any cantrip... to this deck) (also, it can get countered, although idk why anyone would do that) - How is the option a disadvantage? If Standstill had "1U: discard *this*, mill the top card of your library, draw a card" it would certainly be better.
Disadvantages:
1. Requires a way to manipulate the top 3 (SDT, Jace, Brainstorm)
2. Draws 2 cards instead of 3

[sdematt]

A friend of mine was playing this deck, but very differently from the style we're going. He was playing it in a 3C Counterbalance list with Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants, and a bunch of other stuff. It wasn't as oriented on getting Dreadnought, it was playing more like a Counterbalance based deck, with the Dreadnought-Stifle combo in it. It played rather well against the majority of the field, as with most Counterbalance decks, and he said it was nice having other threats and answers rather than riding Dreadnought to victory (hopefully).

I'll try to get the list from him and post it, just to show another direction that he's gone.

-Matt

[Jackehehe]

A friend of mine was playing this deck, but very differently from the style we're going. He was playing it in a 3C Counterbalance list with Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants, and a bunch of other stuff. It wasn't as oriented on getting Dreadnought, it was playing more like a Counterbalance based deck, with the Dreadnought-Stifle combo in it. It played rather well against the majority of the field, as with most Counterbalance decks, and he said it was nice having other threats and answers rather than riding Dreadnought to victory (hopefully).

I'll try to get the list from him and post it, just to show another direction that he's gone.

-Matt

Feed us with this information! Arnold says naoUWW!

[keys]

A friend of mine was playing this deck, but very differently from the style we're going. He was playing it in a 3C Counterbalance list with Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants, and a bunch of other stuff. It wasn't as oriented on getting Dreadnought, it was playing more like a Counterbalance based deck, with the Dreadnought-Stifle combo in it. It played rather well against the majority of the field, as with most Counterbalance decks, and he said it was nice having other threats and answers rather than riding Dreadnought to victory (hopefully).

I'll try to get the list from him and post it, just to show another direction that he's gone.

-Matt

Goyf can be really good in a UGR version with Firespout, for the reasons you mentioned.

However, I don't agree with adding green to the deck if you're already playing black and/or white. It makes Perish worse and gives your opponent free Submerges, which is a problem against mono blue Merfolk and UG Madness when you're trying to protect Nought or Peacekeeper.

[sclabman]

As someone who would play the Ur version with the occasional black splash strictly for Perish, and also someone who is not all that fond of the deck objectively/competitively (rather it nourishes the inner timmy in me)... I see this thread and it's bullshit. I wish people would stop talking about Predict vs. Standstill.

After some testing, I like both. I ran Predict as a supplement to Dark Confidant and makes the deck much more tempo-oriented and plays a "Draw, Go" fashion a lot while chipping away with Bob and answering everything the opponent plays. The Standstill version will always be classic but it's definitely a different deck style. I wish people would stop bickering and just playtest both versions rather than speculating.

This thread is getting NOWHERE. Both are valid options. As of now I prefer Predict because it's novel to me but tomorrow it's damn likely I'll throw my Standstills back in.

[keys]

The Predict versus Standstill discussion needs to take place every few months. Don't get put off by it; it's just part of the evolution of the deck.

You're right that both are valid options. I think Predict is better with Confidant in a 3 color shell, whereas Standstill is strong in a UR(g) build with full sets of Mishra's/Wastelands.

[Tangle.Wire]

Since i posted some pages ago without getting any notification i thought predict would be awful too, but had great results playing it in the UGR Goofy Dreadstill.

[randomly_anonymous]

Standstill can get pitched to FoW if the board state is bad. Or shuffled away with brainstorm if its a dead card. It's a hard card to play optimally but I advocate its inclusion because drawing 3 cards is a lot better than drawing 2 cards and you know what predict needs to be useful? A brainstorm or sensei's divining top which you will not always have in hand so you'll have to wait until you get one of those cards to be able to utilize predict to draw 2. Forcing a turn one threat then dropping standstill is a huge tempo gain or you can stifle their first fetch then drop standstill due to them not being able to play any spells without that one mana. Also of note if they drop nothing turn 1 then try to drop a two drop turn 2 and it gets spell snared then you can drop standstill this being an on the draw case of standstill being a bomb. And I like ancestral recall in legacy.

Predict is easier to play optimally and can still pitch to Force or get shuffled away with Brainstorm/Jace. This entire argument for the side of Standstill is based on the fact that "drawing 3 cards is better than drawing 2 cards". Without prejudice against all Standstill-lovers in any way, this is why I think it's a poor argument.

1. In the context of Stifle-Nought, card advantage isn't necessarily as important as tempo gains or retarding the opponent's board development. Like many people have said before, dropping Standstill gives the opponent time to rebuild and forces you to spend mana during your main phase.

2. Unless they're REALLY in a pinch, they can just wait until you have atleast five and pop it EOT. In this case, it seems more like you casted Recall with 7 cards in hand and then passed the turn. Even if you had five cards, popping the Standstill then is about the same as Predict (draw 2 and throw away one).

3. Think about the situations that would warrant the optimal playing of Standstill. You would only drop Standstill when you have a better board position, or if you're holding onto man lands, or if you have top. Playing standstill also means that either you're assuming you will draw countermagic or you already have countermagic in hand (for, as an example, if they play Survival). In addition, your opponent can't have Vial, wasteland, manlands, library manipulation, or some other way of cheating things into play. On the other hand, optimal playing of Predict requires your having Jace, Brainstorm, or Top, or somehow knowing the top card of either player's libraries. I think it is quite obvious that the situations which consititute optimal play for Predict are more likely to occur than those which warrant the optimal playing of Standstill. Most important is the fact that Standstill REQUIRES a good board position to work in your favour while Predict can be played even if the optimal conditions aren't met.

4. This point has also been brought up previously. Standstill is sorcery speed and Predict is instant speed. The *only* argument for playing Standstill over Predict from this point of view is that Standstill draws 1 more card. But as I have already mentioned before, in a deck which values tempo over card advantage AND has can situationally handle Predict better than Standstill, this gain of one card can be considered negligible.

To all those out there playing Standstill over Predict, I don't mean to offend or to deride. This is a forum meant to develop this deck, and if you feel that playing Predict over Standstill makes the deck worse, then by all means don't play it. Those of us who are advocating playing Predict over Standstill obviously have our reasons for doing so (no one would knowingly play a card that makes the deck worse).

I just feel that if you look at Standstill vs Predict NOT in a vaccuum but in the context of Stifle-Nought, Predict seems to be a better card.

[lorddotm]

I have tested both Predict and Standstill. Standstill is better. But it is also more difficult to play properly. If played correctly, Standstill will generate better results.

Standstill is not a hard card to play. If they have threats, don't play Standstill. If they don't have anything going on, play Standstill.

How is that a challenging card to play?

[keys]

Standstill is not a hard card to play. If they have threats, don't play Standstill. If they don't have anything going on, play Standstill.


How is that a challenging card to play?

He means the conditions for playing and triggering Standstill favorably are more challenging than the conditions for Predict, not that the decision making process is any more difficult.

[bowvamp]

"I counted 2 advantages and 6 disadvantages for Standstill, versus 4 advantages and 2 disadvantages for Predict. See my list above." - keys
"I'm not assuming every advantage or disadvantage is weighted equally." - keys
Do you not understand that your logic doesn't work if they aren't weighted equally?

Prospective board position:

Turn 3:
You -> Standstill, Goyf, no cards in hand (Standstill was your last)
Opponent -> Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Piledriver

It was the right play to put standstill on the board. Your current board position favors your opponents, but dropping Standstill, it will get progressively better because they will be walled out and you can develop your manabase. Currently the only way the opponent can save his board position (get it where he wants it to be is by playing spells, therefore making standstill non-situational)

I understand the difference between instant and sorcery speed draw. It's just that, well, the times you'd see the difference doesn't deserve a full two (not sure if they're equally weighted) points off of standstill using your metric. It would be a little like making the stifle/wasteland argument be "doesn't allow your opponent to gain tempo" as a pro for predict in addition to standstill.

"How is the option a disadvantage? If Standstill had "1U: discard *this*, mill the top card of your library, draw a card" it would certainly be better." - keys
It certainly would be better if this were the case, however, predict as I see it would make standstill read the following way:
1U
Standstill
Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a spell, that player flips two coins.
If both of them are heads, that player draws four cards.
Otherwise, that player draws one.

This is clearly the effect Predict + Standstill would have.
Predict is possibly one of the worst cantrips (yes, not actual draw) in the game for this deck. It's not like MUC where you run 23+ islands to begin with, in this deck you actually have to be even more situational to guarantee the number of cards you draw even goes so far as to net you an advantage.
I'd suggest that we run Mulldrifter before Predict because then, at least Spell Pierce doesn't hit it, and it doesn't require card filtering to be of use.

[sclabman]

"I counted 2 advantages and 6 disadvantages for Standstill, versus 4 advantages and 2 disadvantages for Predict. See my list above." - keys
"I'm not assuming every advantage or disadvantage is weighted equally." - keys
Do you not understand that your logic doesn't work if they aren't weighted equally?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

I'd suggest that we run Scyscribing before predict because then the guaranteed +1 CA is always there and extras can be FOW'd. Not to mention, it's uncounterable. It also has extra versatility for the super-duper late game. This doesn't mean I'm suggesting Scyscribing.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=skyscribing&v=card&s=cname

Are you serious? Posts like this are the reason why this debate is so tired and pointless. What kind of personal affront did Predict commit to you? Likewise to keys regarding standstill. Seriously people just use what works for you, it's resembling a religious or political debate up in here.

In an effort to steer the thread away from this stupidity: How many 'noughts are people running nowadays? I've been going with 3 but I'm thinking about going back up to 4 so the t2 12/12 threat option happens more often, especially with decks like Vengevival and Merfolk running around that can't deal with it easily. I have run as few as two with a Goyf-ed version of the deck, but then it didn't really feel like Dreadstill anymore.

[Antonius]

Predict is like Standstill but for CB decks. If you can't get there with your lock, you can still try to blow them out with CA + efficient removal. Maybe it's not the right fit for dreadstill but in UWr CBtop, it's amazing.

[kingsey]

Would you guys say in the current meta u/b/w dreadstill is a better choice then pro-bant?

I enjoying playing counterbalance and nopro has been good to me so far. I do like the fact tho that this deck can take out shakey mana bases with wasteland and stifle.

[keys]

"I counted 2 advantages and 6 disadvantages for Standstill, versus 4 advantages and 2 disadvantages for Predict. See my list above." - keys
"I'm not assuming every advantage or disadvantage is weighted equally." - keys
Do you not understand that your logic doesn't work if they aren't weighted equally?

No, you keep assuming I mean things I don't. To assume makes an Ass out of U and Me. I can list things AND not have them be weighted. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts! I did not mean to imply that because I've listed more advantages for Predict that it is objectively the better card. I have many points to consider and I thought it was prudent to list them in an organized fashion.



Prospective board position:

Turn 3:
You -> Standstill, Goyf, no cards in hand (Standstill was your last)
Opponent -> Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Piledriver

It was the right play to put standstill on the board. Your current board position favors your opponents, but dropping Standstill, it will get progressively better because they will be walled out and you can develop your manabase. Currently the only way the opponent can save his board position (get it where he wants it to be is by playing spells, therefore making standstill non-situational)

This is not an unfavorable position. It could be described as neutral.



I understand the difference between instant and sorcery speed draw. It's just that, well, the times you'd see the difference doesn't deserve a full two (not sure if they're equally weighted) points off of standstill using your metric. It would be a little like making the stifle/wasteland argument be "doesn't allow your opponent to gain tempo" as a pro for predict in addition to standstill.

I don't have a "metric" so I don't have a clue what you're talking about. It's not a game where each card scores a certain number of points. These concepts are subjective.



"How is the option a disadvantage? If Standstill had "1U: discard *this*, mill the top card of your library, draw a card" it would certainly be better." - keys
It certainly would be better if this were the case, however, predict as I see it would make standstill read the following way:
1U
Standstill
Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a spell, that player flips two coins.
If both of them are heads, that player draws four cards.
Otherwise, that player draws one.

This is clearly the effect Predict + Standstill would have.
Predict is possibly one of the worst cantrips (yes, not actual draw) in the game for this deck. It's not like MUC where you run 23+ islands to begin with, in this deck you actually have to be even more situational to guarantee the number of cards you draw even goes so far as to net you an advantage.
I'd suggest that we run Mulldrifter before Predict because then, at least Spell Pierce doesn't hit it, and it doesn't require card filtering to be of use.

WTF? I don't want to flame you but this is completely nonsensical. Evoked Mulldrifter costs 1 more, is horrible with Confidant and Counterbalance, doesn't refresh the top three, and is not instant speed, so ...no.

Sigh.

@sclabman: I don't have anything against Standstill! I just think Predict is better with Confidant in the Uwb shell. It's also a much more interesting debate topic than the optimal number of Noughts to run in the deck.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

So this is the list i am running right now and since my meta is mostly merfolk, survival, goblins, and then some storm this is the list i am running.

Also to add to the predict to standstill i think its a meta call more then anything.

So here is the list:
--Lands--
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
-- Creatures--
2 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
-- Spells --
4 Stifle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
3 Predict

-- Sideboard--
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Peacekeeper
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Perish
2 Vindicate
3 Spell Pierce

I have also been looking at dropping the counterbalances from the list and going more counter type control or something else, thoughts?

[Rood]

Predict or Standstill can both generate pretty decent card advantage. I mean I can see why some would want to play Predict over Standstill since it's instant speed and requires less to generate off of. Standstill warps the game down to the game speed that this deck wants to play at times which is incredible slow. A resolved Standstill is going to make your oponent play alot more passively granting you extra turns to hit land drops and spin with Top in alot of situations. Predict while being instant speed cannot slow the game speed of a game down which is problematic when you need the game to slow down a bit.

[kicks_422]

But if you want to slow the game down a bit, that means you're having trouble with the speed of the game, right? Which means you're losing? Then why would you want to drop a Standstill?

[The Atog Lord]

Kicks: Why would the game being slowed down be bad for us? Part of the strength of Dreadstill is its ability to transition between quick combo deck, and grinding control deck. It is quite comfortable in both roles. One of the primary misconceptions about this deck that I have seen is that too many people are distracted by the Dreadnoughts. Yes, they are big and yes they can finish the game very quickly. But the rest of the deck is quite capable of functioning like a long-term control deck.

Now, for Predict vs Standstill. I don't think there is much left to say. My own recommendation is that Standstill is much stronger -- but that is a function of quite a bit of testing. You can make a logical argument for either card, and neither card is really wrong. There's no point in debating it much further; why not just sleeve up both cards one at a time and try them both?

[sclabman]

I minorly disagree with Atog Lord. The deck usually lacks any kind of removal outside of EE, meaning a single resolved threat shifts the deck into stall-mode and we're looking to seek out the combo quickly. A control deck that's looking to grind out the game usually contains at the very least four StP and some number of sweepers.

[Rico Suave]

There are a variety of reasons why Standstill is preferable to Predict.

For starters, Predict demands that we have Brainstorm or Top in place before we cast Predict. Standstill does not. In many ways Predict is more difficult to utilize effectively because if we don't have one of those set-up cards, or worse if our opponent interferes with the casting of one, then our Predict becomes exceptionally weak. This provides a compounding series of problems which I will outline below.

1) A turn 2 Predict is uncommon while a turn 2 Standstill is frequent. Even if we have Top, and successfully resolve it turn 1, we are not going to be casting Predict turn 2. Standstill is a play that is going to happen consistently earlier than Predict despite having the same mana cost.

2) Disruption of some sort can easily interfere with our combo. Suppose a black-based deck like the ones seen in recent SCG top 8's casts a Thoughtseize. They see Top and Predict. They were going to take Top anyway...

3) Brainstorm. When we want to cast Predict, we need to Brainstorm first. For any of us with decent Brainstorm etiquette, we know this is a terrible line of play. On the other hand, casting a Brainstorm after a Standstill is nearly unmatched in digging power. Compare these two simple scenarios:

BS -> Predict
See 3 cards
Net 1
Filter 1

Standstill -> BS
See 6 cards
Net 2
Filter 2

Brainstorm is a great card. But Playing it effectively is an art. When Predict forces us to Brainstorm at the wrong time, it is a crime and will severely hurt our ability to draw cards, dig for cards, fix our cards, and ultimately win games.

[keys]

I agree with basically everything you're saying, Rico. Playing Brainstorm suboptimally in order to use Predict is bad; in that scenario I would probably just hold my Predict. You're also right that Predict + library manipulation often costs a total of 3 mana unless you have Jace out, so a turn 2 Predict (barring an E Tutor from your opponent) is rarely possible.

I think the root of our disagreement may be the fact that Predict and Standstill do not fill exactly the same role, even though they are both draw spells that cost 1U. Pigeonholing Predict into the role that Standstill used to play is not going to convince anyone of its power.

Like you said, it is often the best play to cast Standstill on turn 2, whereas Predict shines in the late game when board positions have already developed (i.e your opponent has creatures and you have a Top) and you need that extra card advantage to take control of the game.

If we're talking specifically about a replacement for Standstill, I think everyone should have their eyes on Dark Confidant. Like Standstill, running out Confidant on turn 2 is often the correct play, and both cards provide a huge early advantage.

In the current Uwb Dreadstill list I play, I am using 4 Confidants for the early advantage, and 2 Predict for the late game boost, and it is very fluid.

[Jackehehe]

I agree with basically everything you're saying, Rico. Playing Brainstorm suboptimally in order to use Predict is bad; in that scenario I would probably just hold my Predict. You're also right that Predict + library manipulation often costs a total of 3 mana unless you have Jace out, so a turn 2 Predict (barring an E Tutor from your opponent) is rarely possible.

I think the root of our disagreement may be the fact that Predict and Standstill do not fill exactly the same role, even though they are both draw spells that cost 1U. Pigeonholing Predict into the role that Standstill used to play is not going to convince anyone of its power.

Like you said, it is often the best play to cast Standstill on turn 2, whereas Predict shines in the late game when board positions have already developed (i.e your opponent has creatures and you have a Top) and you need that extra card advantage to take control of the game.

If we're talking specifically about a replacement for Standstill, I think everyone should have their eyes on Dark Confidant. Like Standstill, running out Confidant on turn 2 is often the correct play, and both cards provide a huge early advantage.

In the current Uwb Dreadstill list I play, I am using 4 Confidants for the early advantage, and 2 Predict for the late game boost, and it is very fluid.

Would you like to post this list of yours?

I am currently having some thoughts whether or not its worth running 4 dreadnoughts, i.e cutting some and replacing with other creatures. I know how incredulous this must sound to some but with the current meta that is basically SPRAWLING with creature and above all, artifact and enchantment hate as a consequence of the abundance of survival decks, I just find myself boarding out the noughts regardless of what match up. Hence, I alter my deck completely with peacekeeper instead of noughts, turning it into some jacestill/CBtop hybrid... lol

[GGoober]

3) Brainstorm. When we want to cast Predict, we need to Brainstorm first. For any of us with decent Brainstorm etiquette, we know this is a terrible line of play. On the other hand, casting a Brainstorm after a Standstill is nearly unmatched in digging power. Compare these two simple scenarios:

BS -> Predict
See 3 cards
Net 1
Filter 1

Standstill -> BS
See 6 cards
Net 2
Filter 2



This, not to mention setting up Standstill is easier with the deck's strong early permission suite + factory. If you really wanted to Predict with Top/Brainstorm, it boils down to a total of {3U}/{1UU} mana spent respectively, which only nets 1 cards (sometimes 'scrying' is suboptimal). Now imagine the same situation Standstill + either Top/Brainstorm, you will net 2 cards and dig another 3 cards, for a total of {3U}/{1UU} respectively. Not to mention Standstill allows the Dreadstill player to develop his manabase IF opponents refused to crack it early. Now, imagine both situations WITHOUT secondary cards.

As far as I'm concerned, Predict's instant speed + not pumping opposing goyfs +1/+1 does not outweigh the raw card advantage and super-digging synergy with Top/Brainstorm that Standstill provides. What if you HAD to counter a spell and had no mana to predict? Then you wasted both tempo and resource management. When I play Standstill, I KNOW That the situation si going to benefit me regardless if they cracked it immediately or not, i.e. I have full knowledge that my tapped-out resource management is still beneficial when I made the decision to play Standstill. And if they don't crack it, I will have mana open to win any permission war with the raw cards I draw from Standstill. At least, I want MORE cards, to either control the game, or protect my Dreadnought. Standstill + Top/Brainstorm to me already seems stronger than Predict + Top/Brainstorm, and Standstill has another added synergy with Factories, so the nature of Standstill fits better in the deck than Predict. And I've tested Predict due to displeasure with Standstill, I thought it was strong until I realized that I was convincing myself it was better than standstill due to my bad experiences with Standstill. The mind games you can play with yourself heh.

[keys]

Would you like to post this list of yours?

I am currently having some thoughts whether or not its worth running 4 dreadnoughts, i.e cutting some and replacing with other creatures. I know how incredulous this must sound to some but with the current meta that is basically SPRAWLING with creature and above all, artifact and enchantment hate as a consequence of the abundance of survival decks, I just find myself boarding out the noughts regardless of what match up. Hence, I alter my deck completely with peacekeeper instead of noughts, turning it into some jacestill/CBtop hybrid... lol

I posted it a few pages back, but I'll copy it again. [PMP]Krevvy shared a list that was very similar as well.


4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Predict
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vindicate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus


The 3 Nought, 2 Mage, 4 Stifle, 1 Trickbind combo works very well, and Confidants fill your hand with them fast. Bobby also acts as a lightning rod, sucking up removal that would otherwise target your Nought. Of course if I have a counter I will definitely protect Confidant, because a few turns of his upkeep will put you ahead very fast.

Sometimes your opponent will answer all your threats, leaving you with just a Top and a stale board, and then Predict really speeds up the topdeck. I'm playing 3 Spell Snare/2 Daze because of the popularity of Survival (although I played the same formation back in the days of UGR Dreadstill and it was just as good then). I'm considering some Counterspells, but I haven't tried them out yet.

I'm currently running 4 Wasteland to capitalize on the mana denial option with Stifles, and it's really good to have against opposing Mishra's/Mutavaults as well as Maze of Ith. Academy Ruins is there for the EE lock which is the deck's only maindeck removal, but it can also dig up a Nought if you need it, and recurring Crypt is game over for Dredge.

[deadlock]

I secon Rich, this discussion is unecessary: Standstill is proven and powerful, the correct metagame response has already been taken by going down to 3 Still and adding other ways to gain card advantage. Just (extensively) test Predict and tell us your results.
Two notes which hasnt been mentioned till now:
- Predict is basically a two card combo with SDT to gain a little card advantage. Blind Predicts are bad as they are with BS (see Metalwalkers) post. Personallyi would hate to use BS in combination with Predict as i either want to shuffle bad cards away or configure my top cards for CB. I would consider Predict a strong option in decks starting with 4 SDT and at least a couple of Ponders, but not in Dreadstill.

- They are some matchups were Standstill is above average powerful, far better than Bob in some cases. Black aggro control or board control with comes to my mind, basically decks with lots of removal, but not that many threats of none-blue nature.
Also I value Standstill quite high against Countertop, especially against recent lists which sometimes just play Goyf and Clique as beaters. As a sidenote a few pages back someone mentioned that he thinks that the best strategy against Zoo is to try to chain Standstills... given this was a different version of the deck, but it should state the value of the card imo.

[keys]

I secon Rich, this discussion is unecessary: Standstill is proven and powerful, the correct metagame response has already been taken by going down to 3 Still and adding other ways to gain card advantage. Just (extensively) test Predict and tell us your results.
Two notes which hasnt been mentioned till now:

Well, I went down to 3 Standstill about a year ago when Zoo became the DTB. Now that Zoo has been supplanted by Vengevine Survival, and partially due to the printing of Spell Pierce and Coralhelm, Merfolk has become a huge force. It's a new metagame now that is not friendly to Standstill.


- Predict is basically a two card combo with SDT to gain a little card advantage. Blind Predicts are bad as they are with BS (see Metalwalkers) post. Personallyi would hate to use BS in combination with Predict as i either want to shuffle bad cards away or configure my top cards for CB. I would consider Predict a strong option in decks starting with 4 SDT and at least a couple of Ponders, but not in Dreadstill.

3 SDT, 2 Trinket Mage (to get SDT), 4 Brainstorm, 2 Jace. That's 11 methods to set up Predict, and that doesn't count the ways in which your opponent can reveal his top card. It is much more than a two card combo; it flows very naturally with the game plan.


- They are some matchups were Standstill is above average powerful, far better than Bob in some cases. Black aggro control or board control with comes to my mind, basically decks with lots of removal, but not that many threats of none-blue nature.
Also I value Standstill quite high against Countertop, especially against recent lists which sometimes just play Goyf and Clique as beaters. As a sidenote a few pages back someone mentioned that he thinks that the best strategy against Zoo is to try to chain Standstills... given this was a different version of the deck, but it should state the value of the card imo.

Is mono black control that popular in your meta? I see a healthy number of Landstill decks in my meta, and Standstill is pretty poor in that matchup, considering that they play more man lands, Wastelands, and potentially DoJ. Besides, Bob is insane versus most things black because Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise can't touch him.

Predict also has its uses against CounterTop, such as milling a flipped Top. Funny you mention Clique, because he has a way of turning a Standstill into a 4-for-0 in your opponent's favor. I remember when it was mentioned, but I still find it hard to believe that "chaining Standstills" is even a legitimate strategy.

Anyway, it does seem like time to move on, since I'm seeing many of the same arguments rehashed. I'll let you know how things go at the next tournament I attend.

[The Atog Lord]

Well, I went down to 3 Standstill about a year ago when Zoo became the DTB...I still find it hard to believe that "chaining Standstills" is even a legitimate strategy.

I've found that this is the best way to defeat Zoo with Dreadstill. You can often land a Standstill in the first few turns, in a position that Zoo can't break through. Using either Top or drawing into a Factory, you will force Zoo to break that Standstill. Then you can establish a Dreadnought with counter backup, a Counterbalance, or another Standstill to continue. In any case, you're quite often in a favorable position. I'm not saying that Zoo is a great matchup, but Counterbalance does help a lot.

On the matter of Merfolk. Sure, Standstill is bad here. But so is Predict. You'll either resolve a quite Dreadnought and win, or you'll lose. You don't have time Game I to set up a worthwhile Predict. And game II, you'd board out Standstill or Predict anyway.

And do you really want to count Jace for setting up Predict? Making your tiny draw spell better when you've already landed Jace and are not needing to bounce something right away is very much win-more.

[keys]

You can often land a Standstill in the first few turns, in a position that Zoo can't break through.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Even when you're on the play, how do you expect to consistently land a Standstill early against a deck that plays at least 10 1-drops?

I agree that Counterbalance is key.

[Dark Ritual]

You counter zoo's second turn threat or if it's a nacatl you can go turn 1 island per se turn 2 they try to drop goyf you snare it then that's followed up by standstill on turn 2 with you at 17 life they have a 3/3 nacatl presumably and you have an island and factory. This is where standstill shines; you trade your factory for their nacatl then you wait until they either break the standstill or you draw into another factory to put pressure on them to break the standstill. The above scenario will happen often because spell snare can be any non daze counterspell like FoW works to counter the goyf. The only problem with this scenario is if the opponent drops a steppe lynx turn 1 then it will eat your factory alive but that's the only one drop that gives us problems loam lion, nactal, and kird ape have nothing on a 3/3 factory. If they bolt the factory that's fine because they just broke standstill and you can likely protect the factory with the cards you drew.

[keys]

Or they just wait until you have a full hand and bolt you in your end step? Honestly, I think Standstill's greatest strength is that people still do not how to properly play against it.

[GGoober]

At least my personal experience with Predict was even with its synergy with Brainstorm/Top, if I don't have Top, Predict just simply isn't worth playing. Playing a Brainstorm following up with a Top results in 2 cards being used simply to net 1 card (you can value the benefit of scrying a irrelevant card' but most tight lists seldom have irrelevant cards, you have fetches for 'scrying' purposes with Brainstorm/Top).

The Predicts without Top are very weak, even with conjunction with Brainstorm, because in setting this up, it's 1UU net 1 card. Standstill when being cast, will always net you 2 cards, and if not cracked immediately, will net you 2 cards with mana open for responses aka, huge tempo loss for opponents when you have mana open to counter their spells when they crack Standstills. When you resolve a standstill and they crack immediately, you net 2 cards for 1U, still seems good for me.

The ONLY argument that Predict has over Standstill is: Standstill is sometimes a dead card, but Predict never is. This I fully agree. But in arguing which is more powerful in drawing in GENERAL and over the course of the game, there is really nothing else in the format that outdraws Standstill (Bob doesn't count since it's just as situational if not more protecting Bob). Bob doesn't take the slots of Standstill, so there's no point in discussion Bob v.s. Standstill. For the people who are still convinced Predict > Standstill, I can personally say that this is true in a Merfolk/Goblin dominant meta, otherwise Standstill is simply better against any other deck without exception. I can always confidently drop a Standstill against Zoo and know that I'll take at most 10 damage before I draw my 3 cards. Assuming the WORST scenario where I never drew my manlands against Zoo's Wild Nacatl, then Standstill has still bought me the 4-6 turns to sculpt my hand, where I'll EOT crack my STandstill, drop my Counterbalance engine, and deal with the board to which they will be in a bad position unless they have Grip. Standstill is all about building up to a good position, it's not about resolving it in a favorable position, but it also serves as BOTH a card draw and the establisher of a good board position given the scenarios your opponent has to react to it.

I currently play 3 in Landstill (don't really play Dreadstill although I've piloted it before and probably will pick it up once in awhile in my meta now that it's shifting towards heavy combo, the stifles and counterbalance >>> LAndstill against combo).

[Rico Suave]

On the topic of Merfolk, it bears repeating a few key points that have been previously mentioned.

Standstill isn't too hot here, but neither is Predict. It is correct to board out Standstill in this match, but we came to the conclusion that boarding out Predict is also correct. So I find it difficult to believe that Merfolk is a reason to play Predict over Standstill.

Furthermore, what strategies are successful against Merfolk? Well, there seem to be 2 lines of attack Dreadstill can execute which have an advantage over what Merfolk is doing:
-Present a 12/12 early and outrace the opponent
-Secure a Peacekeeper and protect it

For the purpose of playing an early 12/12, it is imperative to play 4 Dreadnoughts. In fact, I would wager that somewhere around 95%+ of Dreadstill's game 1 wins against Merfolk revolve around this line of play.

[GGoober]

Rico I understand what you mean, and I think I didn't phrase/argue correctly but what I'm saying that Standstills ain't hot against Merfolks, which we all know, so an alternative e.g. Predict maybe considered running over it, and since the meta has quite a number of Merfolk decks, it should replace Standstill.

But I am fully agreeing with you here, the Standstills the Standstill SLOTS should be boarded out because you cannot afford to board out anything else against Merfolks. You need to keep your permission, sweepers, Dreadnought unchanged while bringing in the hate cards.

EDIT: So Predict would be bad too since it is technically a Standstill SLOT, and these slots need to be boarded out for answers while the other MD (Permissions/Noughts) cannot be touched since they are relevant to winning the game against Merfolks.

[The Atog Lord]

And Brad and I are both saying that while Standstill is not good against Merfolk, Predict is also bad. If you're spending your first three turns setting up and using Predict, you're probably losing anyway.

[sdematt]

This is the list my friend was using the other night, and placed second, only losing to Goblins:

This is taken straight out of the email he sent, and I don't feel like editing for capitals and grammatical errors:

*Quote*

x3 Nought
x4 Stifle
x2 Trickbind
x4 FoW
x4 Daze
x4 Brainstorm
x2 EE
x3 Counterbalance
x3 S. top
x4 Dark confidant
x4 Tarmogoyf
x2 Trinket mage

x3 U sea
x3 Trop
x2 island
x1 forest
x3 wasteland
x3 mishras factory
x4 misty rainforest
x2 polluted delta

i would like to put a 2-3 spell snares back in but cant find room, and i would also like to put in a 4th wasteland because right now i'm playing this as a tempo deck with goyf/confidant that has an oops smash with the nought. i try to stifle all fetches, waste non basics and then daze/fow important stuff.

SB still in the works
x2 BeB
x2 trygon predator
x3 krosan grip
x3 smother
x1 pithing needle
x3 tormods crypt
x1 ??


*End quote*

He did really well with the deck, and it looks like it was a blast to play. Critique it at your leisure.

-Matt

[Blitzbold]

Looks similar to the deck which placed 4th (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdy8N4oI) at GP: Bochum's sideevent.

-1 Nought, -4 Snare, -2 Jace 2.0 => 3 CB, + 3 Top, +1 land all the while adding Factories.

As I am considering trying UBG Thresh at the moment, I am a bit attracted to both of the lists. UGB Tempo contains targeted removal, though, and Spell Snare is too important and strong to pass in my opinion.

I am also not sure about those Factories - are they needed? I am currently playing NLT and am growing to dislike them - not doing much, providing colorless mana for a colorhungry deck and merely synergising at all with the rest of the deck. Cutting the Factories and adding a 4th Wasteland and 1 or 2 fetchlands might be better without Standstill or CoW. On the other hand, thex provide cheap blockers and are nearly immune to opposing planeswalkers.

[HAVE HEART]

It would seem Rodney (Roodmistah, I am pretty sure) made top 8 at this weekend's Boston $5K. I am assuming he played this deck.

[J.V.]

It would seem Rodney (Roodmistah, I am pretty sure) made top 8 at this weekend's Boston $5K. I am assuming he played this deck.
He did indeed:
Lands:21
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2-3 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4-6 Island

Creatures:7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Trickbind

Sideboard:15
3 Hibernation
3 Spell Pierce
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Firespout

[Rood]

Hey guys split top 4 at the SCG Boston 5k tourney taking 3rd overall. I'll probably post a mini report tomorrow but for a reference I ended up losing to Vengevine Survival in T4 piloted by Gerry Thompson. The deck flowed wonderfully all day for me I could not have asked for any better.

Above list if a little off, I'll post the updated one later as well.

[J.V.]

*Gerry Thompson...
Well I tried, you said "my normal list with the above board..."

[sdematt]

I'm glad someone got there with this deck. Nice job! Noticed you weren't running the Peacekeeper or Perish tech. Did you miss it?

-Matt

[Rood]

I'll post a mini report for you guys just a brief description I didn't really take any notes so I can't really go too much into detail.

Rounds

Affinity 2-0
Doomsday 2-0
AnT 2-0
Belcher 2-0
Dragonstompy 2-1
U/g Madness 2-1
U/g Madness 0-2
U/w Threshold/control 2-0

Top 8 match:
BGW Rock-style deck 2-1

T4:
U/b Survival Ooze Combo 1-2(mana screw g3)

So not bad we ended up splitting top 4 and each taking home around 850$. Since I now have enough money to buy this deck again, hopefully I can make it out to some more tournaments in the future.

For reference, he's the list I ran

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Tropical Island
5 [TSP] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [DD2] Daze
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [7E] Hibernation
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

I don't think I'd change anything in either MD or SB. Hibernation from the SB was amazing for me in the Survival match which is all I really cared about.

Props to Chuck for lending me the deck to play and Beastman for getting me an energy drink to keep up with my poor 4 hours of sleep on 10+ hours of magic. Also the judge who helped me jump start my dead battery car!

[AngryTroll]

I've been looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the list you played. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning on a few of the choices you made:

How'd you end up with 2 Tops and 2 Explosives? It looks a lot more natural to go 3 and 1, but it looks like it worked for you.

Was 3 Counterbalance the right number to run, or were you one short all day? With the matchups you played, it looks like they probably pulled their weight.

How'd you end up with 1 Firespout in the board; can you beat Merfolk with that list with only 1 Firespout and the 3 Red Blasts / Pyroblasts?

I like that you're running so many land. The consensus seemed to be 18 or 19 a year ago, but I always went with one over the consensus. Was 21 the right number, or would you go down ( or even up ) one?

Nice work on the placement!

[DCTopTeam]

I'll post a mini report for you guys just a brief description I didn't really take any notes so I can't really go too much into detail.

Rounds

Affinity 2-0
Doomsday 2-0
AnT 2-0
Belcher 2-0
Dragonstompy 2-1
U/g Madness 2-1
U/g Madness 0-2
U/w Threshold/control 2-0

Top 8 match:
BGW Rock-style deck 2-1

T4:
U/b Survival Ooze Combo 1-2(mana screw g3)

So not bad we ended up splitting top 4 and each taking home around 850$. Since I now have enough money to buy this deck again, hopefully I can make it out to some more tournaments in the future.

For reference, he's the list I ran

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Tropical Island
5 [TSP] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [DD2] Daze
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [7E] Hibernation
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

I don't think I'd change anything in either MD or SB. Hibernation from the SB was amazing for me in the Survival match which is all I really cared about.

Props to Chuck for lending me the deck to play and Beastman for getting me an energy drink to keep up with my poor 4 hours of sleep on 10+ hours of magic. Also the judge who helped me jump start my dead battery car!

Congratulations on the finish! My friend runs Dreadstill URb and I have observed that you had no Zoo or Merfolk matchups. In your playtesting, how does this list fare against the two match ups? He runs 3 MD Firespout btw. Thanks and again congrats and its high time u buy that deck :cool:

[Rood]

Here's the thing about me and 3 Tops. For whatever reason, even if it's simple better..I always draw at least 2 when I'm playing three. Or I'll top into another top. 2 ensures me this is pretty rare to see happen and we still have T-mages obv. to fetch them when we need them. 2 EEs might actually get changed I'm not sure but 1 Needle/1 EE main atm definitely is not incorrect way to go. 3 Counterbalances were right, Generally since I don't run the 3 tops I'm not going to commit to the full playset due to not guaranteeing to always be able to support CB. I wasn't actually expecting to see too much Merfolk, so I meta-gamed my sideboard for this reason. If you're expecting to see lots of it, might not be bad to run an extra Firespout in the board.

In terms of match ups I would say Zoo is moderately even to slightly favorable for us. Merfolk on the other side is not a very good matchup. It's definitely one I was glad not to see, but if I came across it I was ready to go into a battle.

[Shimi]

@Rood
Why did you not played 1 or 2 Jace , TMS did you think it is not worth?
What are your SB plans against VV Survival?
How many games did you win with Nought and with Mishra's?

Thx and congratulations on your finish , unfortunately could not see you playing at ggslive.

[J.V.]

@Rood
Why did you not played 1 or 2 Jace , TMS did you think it is not worth?
What are your SB plans against VV Survival?
How many games did you win with Nought and with Mishra's?

Thx and congratulations on your finish , unfortunately could not see you playing at ggslive.

Rodney and I talked about this this the other day, He didn't run Jace because he expected a metric shitton of VV Survival and he felt it was simply too slow in the matchup.

I'm not sure what his sb plan was Rodney always kind just sides on the fly with no real "plan" although I'd guess some number of Hibernations, Crypts, Pierces, and REBs came in.

He won most of his matches with Dreadnoughts.

[Beware]

I, also, am curious as to the logic behind some of your choices.

Why no Jace, TMS? He seems really good here, so what was your logic for not including him? I'm not saying it seems like a bad idea, I'm just wondering to what, exactly, your reasoning was. In fact, what was your reasoning in going with regular Dreadstill and not Jacestill?

EDIT: J.V. answered this before I posted.

Why no White? It would be simple to add a Tundra and/or a Plains to the MD for Swords to Plowshares and it would also give you Peacekeeper out of 'board which seems like a MUST if you dread (*snicker*) the Merfolk MU. It's also great against Zoo and Vengevival.

Against what, exactly, do you bring Crucible from the 'board? I used to run one MD, but there is a fairly small amount of LD running around these days, it seems.

How has 4 'Noughts worked for you? With only 6 Stifles it, initially, seems like you'd end up with them in hand pretty often without a Stifle. That impression is exacerbated the 3 Trinket Mage you are also running. 4 'Nought also strengthens an argument for White since you can StP a non-Stifled 'Nought when you are in a real pinch.

How has Standstill, generally, been for you? It was obviously pretty good against the decks you saw at the Open, but it seems like this meta may not be the best place for Standstill. Survival's rise in popularity makes it a better play, but the sheer amount of Aether Vials running around severely diminishes its value. I know the deck is Dreadstill, but I'm iffy as to how good Standstill can be these days.

[Rood]

Here's my problem with Jace right now. When I was going to this tournament I actually had 2 Jaces I sold to SCG to kick off my tournament. All I was expecting to encounter was VV Survival, random aggro decks, possible Merfolk...etc. I just don't see Jace very good right now in this meta call me crazy but I don't think he's all that great in Dreadstill either like he is in other Countertop variant decks. Jace is also pretty bad against combo which I saw alot of. The decks he's truly amazing against are other control decks, which were very scarce in this meta. That being said, Jace is an incredible card but I don't see gaining alot from him in Dreadstill at the moment.

GGslive, man I got featured TWICE and never got to be on livestream haha. He said I had to make it to finals to finally be on screen :(. I think the whole tournament I won all but 4 of my games with Dreadnought. Sideboarding strategies change depending on which VV Survival matchup you're going into. Pierces need to go in against B/G Vengevival and Hibernations should be in against all of them. I didn't however board in a Crypt, which I'm not sure if it was right or not but I just felt the deck can play around it too well. Needle also went in as a 1-of which means one will be taken out of my side now that the tournaments over. White is okay but again if you go that route just play Rich Shay's list, I prefer a different style and I've never really been too big a fan of white in Dreadstill.

4 Noughts were amazing I can't begin to say how good T2 Dreadnought w/ Daze or FoW backup is still. I never really ran into the problem of Dead Noughts in hand, only once whole tournament. Standstill is still the best card we have in the deck for card advantage...and the meta is ripe now for it to feed ;].

Also, this deck is still tier 1 you people should start picking it back up again :P.

[sdematt]

I never got off the bandwagon, I was just waiting for a good build to try again.

I'm assuming you don't have pictures of you dreamcrushing opponents, do you? Or video?

-Matt

[Shimi]

Thx for Rood , I could see your point and I find it was the correct choice, may be it is just Jace fever so people cannot see blue without it.I'm sad cause I sold my 4 Noughts but I'm anxious to get them back and play some tournament with it again.Just another question , did you play T2 Standstill against UG Survival? I seem a bit risky let them solve a Survival with daze backup or just draw , go , discard vines at end of turn and them start brings 2 vines two or three times in a row.

Also thx J.V for answering.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

What about a U/W dreadstill deck guys? that focus more on the long game and can some times act as landstill. SB allows for the ability to change from dreadnaught into a i win with jace deck. I am going to test it out but it looks interesting to me.

// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [B] Plains (2)
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [JGC] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [SOM] Trinket Mage
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [JGC] Stifle
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DD2] Daze
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [A] Disenchant
SB: 2 [7E] Hibernation

[Beware]

Thanks for those answers, RoodMistah. I'm still interested in your logic when you decided to not splash White, though.

[Cenarius]

I'm thinking about playing an UWB Dreadstill list for the Dutch Championship this weekend. There are several things I would like to know before deciding whether I want to play the deck or not. Before posting these questions, I would like to give you my look on Dreadstill 2010.

Dreadstill 2010

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

2 Ponder

3 Standstill

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding tarn

There are several things to be seen in this list. First of all, the list doesnt play Cb/top! Nor does it play Trinket Mages! Holy crap.
This might not be a good start, but let me give some arguments.

1. Cb/top is too slow for this metagame.
2. Cb/top is not good enough any more in this metagame due to Vial, Goblins and Vengevival (since it says cast and not when comes into play)

These might be some harsh statements, but I believe these are facts. Straight facts to be honest. Therefore I do not want to play Counterbalance/top anymore. - Please do not reply on these statements, I prefer reply's on the actual list and its matchups -

Trinket mage didn't make the cut for some reasons aswell:

1. Trinket mage is too slow for this metagame
2. Trinket mage is a chumper and I don't like chumpers!!!! No, really I don't like chumpers at all.
3. Since I don't play Top anymore, there is no way that this man is in my list.

I know that Trinket mage offers you more sideboard slots and gets you either one of the two combo's. I perfectly get that, it's just that I don't like a 3cc tutor + chumper in one.

So what else does this list offer?

It gives you more cheap counters, it gives you ponder and that's about it. One of the other reasons for me, redesigning this deck to my play preferences is because I play Tempo Threshold. Having blue cards + cheap counters in hand is awesome! I believe this deck is faster in achieving its goals, that's all.

So let me show you my idea of a sideboard (pretty much copied from various lists):

3 Peacekeeper
3 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Perish/Hibernation
1 Relic of Progenitus/metagame slot

This shows exactly what I expect of the metagame in the Nederlands at the Dutch Championships. I expect a lot of Merfolk, Goblins, Vengevival, some old Landstill list from guys that normally don't play legacy anymore, some countertop, some Zoo and random.
The reason for me to consider this deck is the lack of Plow in my metagame and therefore making Dreadnought more powerful than normally. I play Dreadnought in the sideboard of Tempo Threshold (see thread) and I boarded them in against Merfolk and Goblins , winning me a lot of games just by its own.

So, we came to the part where I discussed my visions of the deck. I now mainly want advise.

- Is perish good against Vengevival? Or is Hibernation better?
- Is Hibernation good against Zoo?
- Is it better to have Perish in the board because of Zoo?
- What do you think about the deck? Do you think it's strong, or do you think that I miss something vitally? Please do mention this.
- What do you think about the matchups of this deck? This may seem speculative since this list is pretty new, yet the sideboard is pretty much identical from anyone else.

I don't think I have any more questions. I hope that I receive answers to my questions, instead of remarks about my Mainboard. So let the discussion begin.

[GGoober]

- Is perish good against Vengevival? Or is Hibernation better?
- Is Hibernation good against Zoo?
- Is it better to have Perish in the board because of Zoo?
- What do you think about the deck? Do you think it's strong, or do you think that I miss something vitally? Please do mention this.
- What do you think about the matchups of this deck? This may seem speculative since this list is pretty new, yet the sideboard is pretty much identical from anyone else.


Perish isn't good against Vengevival, and not good if they aren't dumb players that overextend. Still doesn't solve VV, which is the problem that the deck creates. Hibernation is better against VV, it gives you 1-1.5 turns of tempo, enough for a Nought to eat in when you can protect it

Perish is good against Zoo, but without Countertop, you can't protect Nought effectively against both Path/Pridemage/Grips not to mention burn range that kills you. Hibernation is strong against Zoo as wel, but in this case Perish is just better since it kills the creatures whereas against VV, Hibernation aint great but it definitely is better than Perish.

I think that cutting all of CBTop is bad if you're playing Dreadstill. You seem to be playing Tempo Dreadnought which is fine on paper but in practice weak because a tempo deck cannot really afford cute synergies (2 card dreadnought stifle combo) while expecting to maintain a game state, that is why CBTop is important for Dreadstill. Yet your version of a more Tempo/'faster' Dreadstill is a little flawed. Standstill is inherently a non-tempo control card i.e. you cannot tempo with Standstill since people will just wait out when it's in play. If I were to play CBTopless Dreadnoughts, I'll go without Standstill, and more tempo cards and beaters like Goyfs.

With the decline of Zoo, I'd say Dreadstill (various forms, as long as it packs Snares, Stifles, FoW, Daze) is a decent deck to pick up, especailly UBx builds with excess to Perish/Extirpate in the SB against Vengevivals. But in the meta you posted, I think CBTopless Dreadstill would do fine as long as it isn't Zoo heavy. Merfolks is won by Peacekeeper/Dreadnought protection, CBTop does nothing against Goblins, CBTop is important against Zoo/combo but Dreadstill has an inherently good combo matchup, so depending on how zoo-dense your meta is.

[jazzykat]

Play 4 spell snare in this meta when playing non-combo blue.