[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[kiblast]

Congrats and cool list, I've been running almost the same lately, with the following differences:

-1 Island + 1 Volcanic
-2 Sensei's +2 Repeal <--so far I love them, enables Standstill in early game and let you get rid of problematic permanents in very late game.

[Rood]

How was your maverick matchup? Did you play against it?

I didn't get to play against maverick this tournament because there were hardly any players playing it. But last month I played against it twice and went 1-0-1. The matchup becomes extremely favorable postboard with 10 pieces of removal.

@kiiblast: If I were to cut the tops I think I'd put in another cantrip or something along the lines of ponder, preordain, or up the count of Gitaxian Probe to 4.

[kiblast]

I didn't get to play against maverick this tournament because there were hardly any players playing it. But last month I played against it twice and went 1-0-1. The matchup becomes extremely favorable postboard with 10 pieces of removal.

Even pre board I think is a decent matchup, if you menage to stick an early Grim and force his big threats (Kotr, Scavenging, GSZ for Kotr and Scavenging) or if you stick an early nought-obviously.



@kiiblast: If I were to cut the tops I think I'd put in another cantrip or something along the lines of ponder, preordain, or up the count of Gitaxian Probe to 4.

Yeah I thought about upping the Probes, since I've been really satisfied with the information that the card gives, but I also thought that seeing 2 in an opening hand makes mull decision more difficult. By the way, Repeal has proven decent in testing. Bouncing the Germ token, or a flipped delver before casting Standstill is really nice.

[Rood]

Repeal is a fine card and I know people who have had success with it in the past so do whatever you feel is best. I know Top is still really good and should be at least considered, though.


I updated the primer to include some of the more popular matchups you are going to see now in tournament play and the current list I had on there.

[Reagens]

Repeal is a fine card and I know people who have had success with it in the past so do whatever you feel is best. I know Top is still really good and should be at least considered, though.


I updated the primer to include some of the more popular matchups you are going to see now in tournament play and the current list I had on there.

Thanks Roodmistah.
Seeing you did so well with the deck makes me think to pick it up again as well. Dreadstill has been dead for a long time in my meta and perhaps it's time for a comeback :).
Your primer was interesting as well although I have one more favor to ask. Would you also post which cards you cut in what match-up? I find would find that very interesting as well.
Thanks and congrats!

[Hopo]

Your sideboard seems solid as well. I'd still like to discuss the Tormod's Crypts instead of Surgical Extractions. I think that due to being free and instant, it has perfect synergy with Standstill. You up the number of outs to a Reanimate you can draw from Standstill by 3 cards, as a Crypt drawn from Standstill could as well be a land in the terms of effectiveness.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Your sideboard seems solid as well. I'd still like to discuss the Tormod's Crypts instead of Surgical Extractions. I think that due to being free and instant, it has perfect synergy with Standstill. You up the number of outs to a Reanimate you can draw from Standstill by 3 cards, as a Crypt drawn from Standstill could as well be a land in the terms of effectiveness.

It looks like a close call. Surgical Extraction also flips your Delvers whereas Crypt doesn't,. On the other hand, Crypt is much better graveyard hate all around. In any case, i think Extraction deserves consideration in Roodmistah's deck since it is very tempo-oriented.

Also, well done Roodmistah! I was genuinely happy when i saw Dreadstill on the top 8.

[Rood]

Your sideboard seems solid as well. I'd still like to discuss the Tormod's Crypts instead of Surgical Extractions. I think that due to being free and instant, it has perfect synergy with Standstill. You up the number of outs to a Reanimate you can draw from Standstill by 3 cards, as a Crypt drawn from Standstill could as well be a land in the terms of effectiveness.

I thought about this too actually. Seeing as we don't have Mage anymore it may make perfect sense to just play with Surgical in that slot. I haven't tested it so I can't really say but I know in the Ichorid matchup you'd rather have Crypts. In other GY-based matchups however, Extraction is probally stronger.

One of the main reasons Dreadstill is much stronger now then it has been lately is due to alot of the same reasons RUG is now a DTB.
-Delver
-Dismembers
-Probe

We get that alternate win condition that we never really had before. And cards like KoTF, Tombstalker, and Goyf just don't affect us anymore because of Dismember.

EDIT: Matchups were as followed

2-1 Affinity
2-0 Burn/Sligh
2-0 Stoneblade
2-0 RUG
2-0 Belcher
2-0 High Tide
0-2 RUG
2-1 Combo Elves
ID

T8: 1-2 Reanimator (really bad beatz the 3rd game).

[Mandalay]

Congrats on the finish Mr Hannigan! Dreadstill all through out these years!

[sdematt]

I'm running this and liking it:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
1 Deathmark
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Top
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

--BOARD--

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
3 Duress
2 Perish
2 Dread of Night
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle

-Matt

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Ugr Dreadstill- In Progress

Go on... :eek:

[Hopo]

Following Roodmistah's example I switched Dark Confidants once more to Standstils to go to solid two colors. Good decision, as it got me 3 byes to Ghent today in Helsinki.

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Trickbind
1 Boomerang

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
1 Gilded Drake

The list was a blast to play and as far as I can think, able to beat basically anything. Only three dreadnoughts means I can use Stifles aggressively throughout the game and the format is now full of excellent targets. Basically all the cards were relevant. Even Trickkbind and Boomerang won games out of nowhere.

[Viridia]

So i've been looking for another deck for my Standstills after going 0-3 or 0-4 drop the last 4 tournaments with BUG Landstill and this seems to be the coolest aswell as good performing.

I'm just wondering a few things, mainly if the counter package is sufficient?
And my second question why are the bolts sideboard and not mainboard? And against what do you actually board them in?

[Rood]

So i've been looking for another deck for my Standstills after going 0-3 or 0-4 drop the last 4 tournaments with BUG Landstill and this seems to be the coolest aswell as good performing.

I'm just wondering a few things, mainly if the counter package is sufficient?
And my second question why are the bolts sideboard and not mainboard? And against what do you actually board them in?

The counter package is actually quite intense you have preboard

4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3-4 Snare, and 5 Stifles -postboard-

4 Fow, 2-4 Daze, 3 Snare, 3 Pierce, 3 REB, and 5 Stifles

To address the bolt issue...the main reason I at least do not play them mainboard is because if you were going to you'd want Snapcasters in the maindeck as well over Grim Lavamancer. Simple put, playing with Bolts main and not Snapcasters as well seems suboptimal IMO. Bolts are a nice board luxury to have because against really aggressive aggro decks (Mono Red, green) etc. they give you an extra boost. I personally just prefer Lavamancers over them basically for that reason. It also makes you less reliant if you did run Bolts/Grims to not have to rely on your duals as much.

@Hopo: Good job! 4 Volcs are way too many play with 3 at most, 2 prefered :P. How'd you like Gitaxian Probe?

[Hopo]

@Hopo: Good job! 4 Volcs are way too many play with 3 at most, 2 prefered :P. How'd you like Gitaxian Probe?

My reasoning is that you need red mana in basically all the matchups where you see Wastelands as well. This goes back to when merfolk and maverick were the premier decks and not much has changed in this regard. Had I played with two Volcanics only, I would have straight lost two matches yesterday. I was able to win through Counterbalance lock when opponent also had Crucible of Worlds and Wastelands, but I basically needed a new red source for each Lavamancer activation, Bolt or Blast I played. One might think it's a good idea to play a basic mountain there, but it's effectively a colorless land in your starting hand and I have enough of those already. I also mulliganed a lot yesterday but many times my starting 5 was enough to win the game. This deck mulligans really well and you can have absolute nuts with even five cards, like I did (Delver, Island, Factory, Standstill, Daze)

Probes were nice. They didn't once do the thing I wanted them to do, which is to let me know whether to begin with Delver or Stifle, but it really comes in handy when you are trying to solve the puzzle of dealing 20 and countering just enough spells to make it happen. Definitely a solid card and depending on matchup, can be just what you need to help to deal the last points of damage through removal and counters. At worst it digs for one.

Regarding bolts: I felt a bit awkward by not having any removal in maindeck besides Lavamancers, hence the Boomerang. In practice, dreadnought just let's you ignore vast majority of the creatures anyone might play by being of unfair size and colorless. Only Qasali Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary need responses, and sometimes even those don't matter. Dreadnought is so huge that even Griselbrand had to play defense and that's the position where I just win.

I have played the last 9 months with 4 Bolts and 4 Fire/Ice and no Snapcasters. I find the mage too slow to my liking. My opinion is that Snapcaster helps in creature matchups, but I also find that dreadnoughts don't need any help in those.

[Rood]

My previous few tournaments I was playing with 1 basic mountain in my sideboard more or less like you are saying to deter the wasteland decks. I never found the colorless to be a problem but I rarely ever needed it to the put where I actually cut it from my most recent list. It's strange but I hate drawing a dual in my opening hand I guess. I'm also thinking of the possibility of putting Crucible back in the board to help against the likes of RUG and control.

[oRen]

Hey ... if you do not mind I got a question on the side. While I still love stomping peoples' faces with a 12 power creature because it was my first legacy deck I do not really like the more recent lists. Instead of an incredible flexible aggro control deck the deck evolved into a tempo deck which tries to drop standstill on a positive board. There have always been such lists which were formerly usually played which Confidant. It is not like I think this generally bad it is more that I dislike the general game plan of the deck and feel that it is not really suitable for me.

What specifically made the deck not viable anymore and why is this very tempo orientated game plan better than a more controlling one? I was unfaithful at this time and played original Team America and missed a lot of the evolution. Thanks a lot in advance :smile:

[Hopo]

My previous few tournaments I was playing with 1 basic mountain in my sideboard more or less like you are saying to deter the wasteland decks. I never found the colorless to be a problem but I rarely ever needed it to the put where I actually cut it from my most recent list. It's strange but I hate drawing a dual in my opening hand I guess. I'm also thinking of the possibility of putting Crucible back in the board to help against the likes of RUG and control.

With Stifle in hand, passing the turn with Volcanic on board to have it attempted to be Wasted is as good as Stifling a fetch in my opinion.

Crucible might not be the worst, but my style is to usually use the window they give me by durdling with their mana denial to push through my 1-cc treaths and protect them. Getting wastelanded doesn't matter much if you have a dude in play, and 3 basic islands and 4 Dazes make the mana denial quite ineffective in the end.

Still, I will think of the basic mountain a bit further. It would go to maindeck, though, as sb space is tight, as usual.

[kiblast]

I normally play with 4 Volcs as well, maybe it's too greedy, but I feel confortable with my mana base config (which is Hopo's one, btw. Maybe -1 fetch +1 Island, can't remember correctly, but that's it).

Probes are amazing when facing RUG Delver and Control matchups. Knowing if they are holding a fow/Daze/Pierce or a brainstorm or if UW control is holding a StP, or if it's possible to mana screw them is AMAZING.

[Hopo]

What specifically made the deck not viable anymore and why is this very tempo orientated game plan better than a more controlling one?



I don't know what you mean exactly, but I stopped succeeding when GW started to be played heavily. Green Sun's Zenith made Countertop look silly and you couldn't even Spell Snare their Pridemages anymore. Plus they had lot's of removal.

Tempo plan is good because of Delver. Back in the days you could just save the removal spell for dreadnought. Now there's also Delver who will win the game if not removed. Roodmistah just explained this a few posts above, you should perhaps read the page before asking further questions.

[oRen]

I don't know what you mean exactly, but I stopped succeeding when GW started to be played heavily. Green Sun's Zenith made Countertop look silly and you couldn't even Spell Snare their Pridemages anymore. Plus they had lot's of removal.

Tempo plan is good because of Delver. Back in the days you could just save the removal spell for dreadnought. Now there's also Delver who will win the game if not removed. Roodmistah just explained this a few posts above, you should perhaps read the page before asking further questions.
I talk about times when Grip was a relevant factor which was like 2 years ago. The deck got dropped WAY before the printing of Zenith and after the banning of Survival - which means there was close to 0 GW in the format. If GWx would have been generally a problem you would have never been able to play the deck for as long as it is possible to stifle the Dreadnought trigger.

I read the last pages and I can obviously see how Delver can be a decent call to the metagame by being a threat by itself yet it limits you in building the deck in a way I do not like. I can see the old strategy still working with close to no grips and not that much Maverik in the metagame - and therefore I am asking Rood if and why he thinks that this line of building the deck is outdated and not viable anymore.

[Hopo]

This is pretty ridicules. I talk about times when Grip was a relevant factor which was like 2 years ago.

Then why didn't you say so, little princess? Making people guess what you have in mind is not the best discussion.


If GWx Survival was your problem you would have never been able to play the deck as long as I play Legacy

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Where did that survival come from?

I started playing with dreadnoughts because Survival of the Fittest was banned so I can tell you nothing about playing this during the survival times.

[Rood]

To answer oRen basically what happened is Mental Misstep really killed this deck for the most part a while back before it was banned then once it became banned Delver of Secrets became printed along with new colorless spot removal (Dismember). So now we gained an additional threat that could end the game in just a few short turns as well as not get run over by Tombstalkers/KoTR/Goyf, and such. Before it was a nightmare to face large creatures resolving with this deck, you basically had to have the counter for it on the spot or just be prepared to get run over by it if you didn't have the Nought to trump.

If you're more comfortable playing with Counterbalance then by all means I wouldn't stop you. I think with the resurgence of Reanimator and such you'd be fine if you opted to go for a more controlling list focused around CB/Top. But I think Griselbrand is going to be banned in a couple of days at least hopefully if Wizards is paying any attention to legacy.

[iPhael]

@Rood: Just wanted to pop in and say grats on the finish, keep strong! This was my first legacy deck and I'm super pumped to see it back in action :) And I'll completely agree on misstep killing the deck for the most part. The addition, and subsequent absence of Trinket Mage, of Delver really got this archetype back on its feet. Plus the meta full of 2/2's makes good ole' Grim an absolute all star. Losing Trinket Mage kind of makes CBT unplayable, as now the entire deck basically costs 1 haha. Which leads me to my next point:

@Survival: To be honest that wasn't a really terrible match in my short experience with the CBT URg Dreadstill deck. If you found the hibernation (or hell, even firespout) out the board on time, it was actually pretty manageable.

[oRen]

Fair enough. Thanks a lot. Some fuzzy memories came back ...

It just feels very weird really wanting to play a deck out of mainly nostalgia reasons and card availability (no noughts/standstills though) and the "fear" that the deck you want to play might be generally bad positioned in the evolving metagame (especially because of the powercreep of creatures) and strategy wise outdated. I will try to really ponder my options and what to do with my craving to stomp with Dreadnoughts again ...
Cavern of Souls in MUD, Goblins, elsewhere looks like a serious to unbeatable issue for the older lists though ...

@Hopo: I sure did not express myself perfectly which is generally bad and I wrote my second post in a bit of rage but rewrote it a least a bit better. Rood got what I meant in the first place and I am satisfied for now. I hope everything is fine now.

[Hopo]

Cavern of Souls looks like a serious issue for the older lists though ...

This, and to some extent Aether Vial as well, especially if GW starts to play that again. The existence of Cavern of Souls actually was the thing that made me a bit suspicious regarding playing without maindeck removal.

[oRen]

You are completely right ... also even GW can play Cavern which makes it look even scarier than it already does. Jace and/or Bolts/Lavamancers in the maindeck in some numbers would be reasonable I guess but the more I think of it I was extremely nostalgia driven and wanted it to make it work. I will see ...

[Hopo]

You are completely right ... also even GW can play Cavern which makes it look even scarier than it already does. Jace and/or Bolts/Lavamancers in the maindeck in some numbers would be reasonable I guess but the more I think of it I was extremely nostalgia driven and wanted it to make it work. I will see ...

Roodmistah's sideboard removal should be enough for GW. I also always advise against Jace when playing with Daze.

[HammafistRoob]

Ive been working on a more controllish version which opts to drop red completely for the better removal options white has to offer. Unfortunately I dont own any cards at the moment so I have only been testing with mws. Heres the main 60
4 wasteland
3 mishras factory
3 tundra
2 underground sea
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 island

4 delver of secrets
3 dark confidant
3 phyrexian dreadnaught

3 standstill
3 counterbalance
3 senseis divining top

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
2 daze

The sideboard obviously varies depending on meta and such, but something like this seems viable.

2 jace, the mindsculptor
2 vedalken shackles
1 vindicate
3 surgical extraction
2 relic of progenitus
4 spell pierce
1 standstill

I really dont like gitaxian probe at all, i think its a waste of 2 slots, I would run two trickbinds(never) before probe. Really all the arguements for it are irrelevant. You should know your line of play simply by what deck your opponent is playing. If they only pack 18 lands you obviously stifle fetches aggressively, and if they only have 4 swords maindeck then you obvously just drop dreadnaught. I think thoughtseize would be 10 times better in that slot but I havent tried it out so im not sure. Also Peacekeeper is a really sweet board option white gives.

[Waikiki]

Does delver still work with that many permanents ?

[oRen]

My exact first thought. Delver is limiting you from a deck design point of view if you are really trying to exploit it. Blind flipping delver as often as possible and starting the beats is incredibly important.

Did you try a list without SS/CB/Top for +1 Nought/Confidant and more instants and sorceries?

[Hopo]

I had severe problems flipping delvers with Roodmistah's build so I eventually added 3 flippers and cut a dreadnought and the tops. Still I was having hard time flipping it. It never seemed to matter, though. I think my record was 6 non-succesful flips in a row.

[HammafistRoob]

With 20 instants and sorceries theres a decent chance delver flips blindly. I also have 7 cards to help set up a flip. But its not as important to get him flipped on turn 2 as it is if you were playing RUG. If you drop standstill turn 2 it doesnt matter very much if your delver takes a few turns to flip because SS effectively keeps the heat off your life total.

I would never cut standstill, its the decks namesake. If you cut standstills then you effectively have zero card advantage (unless you use confidant or cb/top). The reason this deck fell off is because people were cutting standstill and trying to make it a pure tempo deck. The problem there is you lose tons of tempo when you 2for1 yourself all day (dreadnaught dying, or casting FoW). Standstill is more or less the best card in the deck I would never go to less than 3.

Also its quite obvious you guys are just shouting out critique without actually trying out the deck. I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

[Hopo]

I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

When the most performing combo deck in the format is Show and Tell, countertop doesn't look so appealing to me right now but I feel you. It also doesn't address miracle control much, which is one of the more drastic matchups. their wincon and Terminus are both immune to Counterbalance. It is of course effective against the low-cc delver tempo decks and whatnot. I would say it's up to you to figure out what you want to beat. Roodmistah's build is quite good at having a chance against basically anything. And you shouldn't have any real problems with combo decks in general, with or without countertop.

[iPhael]

With 20 instants and sorceries theres a decent chance delver flips blindly. I also have 7 cards to help set up a flip. But its not as important to get him flipped on turn 2 as it is if you were playing RUG. If you drop standstill turn 2 it doesnt matter very much if your delver takes a few turns to flip because SS effectively keeps the heat off your life total.

I would never cut standstill, its the decks namesake. If you cut standstills then you effectively have zero card advantage (unless you use confidant or cb/top). The reason this deck fell off is because people were cutting standstill and trying to make it a pure tempo deck. The problem there is you lose tons of tempo when you 2for1 yourself all day (dreadnaught dying, or casting FoW). Standstill is more or less the best card in the deck I would never go to less than 3.

Also its quite obvious you guys are just shouting out critique without actually trying out the deck. I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

This x1000. It's the name of the deck for crying out loud lol. You NEED more CA then just Top or Bob. Too many 241's in your deck to warrant it's omission.

[Rood]

Standstill should be an auto-include in pretty much all lists. Card is way too brutalizing at what it does to not warrant at least 3 copies between the MD/SB. Not to mention have to ever played a Bob then dropped a Standstill? No better then that :D.

[sdematt]

Actually, I dropped a Bob, then my opponent dropped Standstill. Then, I Wastelanded him. Thrice. I lived the dream that day.

-Matt

[Arew]

I played Roodmistah's 75 last weekend at SCG Indy Open, ended up 5-4 overall, the deck was absolutely insane though.

Quick Overview:

R1: Beat Metalworker MUD 2-1, lost G1 to no removal for his Metalworkers, won G2-3 by killing his dudes and countering his relevant spells. This matchup doesn't seem too bad if they aren't running Welder.

R2: Beat UR Delver 2-0, G1 I got him into pointless counter-wars and dropped a Dreadnought, G2 I wasted first Volc, and he kept a one-lander so I countered all his cantrips and just beat him with Delver/Mishra's.

R3: I beat RUG Delver 2-1, I won G1 by dropping a Dreadnought after making him fight over a Goyf. Don't remember how I lost G2, but I won G3 fairly easily after he couldn't find his Grudge for my Dreadnought.

R4: I lose an incredibly close match to Sneak and Show 1-2. G1 I don't have enough counter-magic to stop him, G2 I resolve two Standstills, stifle an Annihilator trigger going to 1 and winning, G3 it comes down to me finding a Bolt or him not finding a Force for my Stifle.

Important to note, that I had about seven missed Delver flips in this match, with a T1 Delver each game.

R5: I beat Matt Costa on RUG Delver 2-1, it went basically the same as my R3 match, except he's playing a single Vapor Snag I have to play around. I win G1, lost G2 to him finding Grudge, win G3 by forcing him to Vapor Snag his Delver and dropping a Dreadnought and he couldn't beat it.

R6: I beat Death and Taxes 2-1. Lose G1 to him going T1 and 2 Aether Vial with two Moms and two Serra Avengers, he topdecks the Mangara for the Nought and I lose. G2 and 3, Lavamancer with Dismembers and Bolts keeps him off all his dudes while I beat him down.

R7: This is where the wheels start falling off. I lose to Josh Glantzman on Maverick after he had a Swords and Pridemage for my Dreadnought, G2 I mull to five and he has a T2 Choke. I manage to put down a Dreadnought at some point and but he has the Pridemage and I can't do much off just a Wasteland and he takes me out after awhile.

R8: I lose 0-2. I keep something like Volc/Volc/Standstill/Standstill/Factory/Daze/Brainstorm, but he's on the play with Belcher and T1 Puts out a bunch of Goblins. G2 my inexperience against Belcher and with this deck shows and I keep a shaky hand of Volc/Nought/Nought/Nought/Force/Daze/Top but don't Daze his first mana-ritual and he has REB for anything after that.

R9: I lose 0-2 to BUG Control. I'm tilting slightly after losing the last two, and my heart isn't really in it. I lose G1 to Clique/Liliana after he manages to stop my Dreadnought. G2 I mull to five on the play again, drop a T2 Standstill with a Factory and then he drops a Creeping Tar Pit that I didn't see G1. I try to race it and find a Waste or another Factory to help but can't and end up breaking my own Standstill but I'm one turn off being able to win my Dreadnought so I scoop it up and see that none of my friends made T8, with the closest coming in 9th and we head home.


Overall the deck is absurdly good, though Delver blind-flips a little less than I would have liked. None of the matches I lost did I feel there was no realistic way to win, and mostly lost to a combination of bad mulligans, sloppy play the last two rounds because I couldn't recover my focus after tilting.

I want to add two Cliques, and another Volc or Fetch, but I'm not sure what to cut. Was thinking -2 Probe -1 Snare, but Probe is really good in the blue matchup and more likely to resolve against them, though cutting spells hurts Delver.

Thanks to Roodmistah for making the deck, was a blast and I'm definitely going to keep practicing with it in the future.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys...

I ran the following list at a small 25 man tourney at our local shop.

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Lavamancer

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Trickbind

5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic
2 Flooded Strand

3 REB
3 Crypt
3 Extraction
3 Dismember
3 Pierce

These are the matchups I faced

2-1 UR Delver
2-1 Mono Black Aggro
2-1 UW Tempo
2-0 Hypergenesis
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Goblins

Deck was great...I wish I had a mountain tho cuz Lavamancer could have dominated a few gms but vol was killed...here's the list I'm prob gonna in ATL

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Lavamancer

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Fire / Ice
3 Spell Pierce
2 Trickbind

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain

3 REB
3 Crypt
3 Dismember
2 Explosives
2 Extraction
2 Clique

[Rood]

Pretty nice list I might have to try out Lightning Bolts in the main. You're playing it at GP ATL? Goodluck man! 6 SB GY hate options is probally too many, I'd run a 2/2 split freeing up slots for 2 Crucible of Worlds or just a 1/1 split between Bolt and Crucible. For Mountain, I absolutely hate running it in the maindeck but go for it if you feel the 2 volcs aren't safe. I know kiiblast runs the full set of Volcs to negate this.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys...

Just got done in ATL...I finished 6-3 and just missed Day 2

Here is the list that I ran.


4 Island
4 Factory
4 Tarn
3 Waste
3 Volcanic
2 Strand

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Lavamancer

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Spell Pierce
2 Fire/Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Trickbind

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Here were my matchups

2-0 Death and Taxes
1-2 UR Delver - Mull to 5 gm 3
2-0 Mono White Vial
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-1 UR Delver
1-2 UW Stoneforge with Giest - Lost to Jitte on Factory gm 3
2-0 RUG
2-0 Merfolk
1-2 Reanimator - Lost to Blazing Archon

I thought the deck was great but in the future I would make a few changes

1. Made a bad call playing Pierce over Snare in the main
2. Standstill is the nuts, I don't think I lost a gm where I resolved it in the first 4 turns.
3. I'm never gonna play less than 4 Nought...guy just steals wins outa nowhere.

Here's the list I'll be working on over the next few months.


4 Island
4 Factory
4 Tarn
3 Waste
3 Volcanic
2 Strand

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Gilded Drake

[Tenbin]

Heya, just came out of a local tournament finishing 4-0 (8-2-0) with this deck.

My list is:


4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Standstill

3 Lightning Bolt

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
2 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Pierce


Round 1 was against a newcomer and I felt pretty dirty playing this deck, his deck was casual, mostly invasion block (all in chinese though) and I scored an easy 2-0

Round 2 Was against Nic Fit and game 1 I won with a turn two Dreadnought with double force for edicts/deed. Game 2 I kept a hand with a turn 2 dreadnought and got therapied for both the stifle and 2 noughts, lost that one. Game 3 I came in again with a dreadnought that proved to be too heavy beats for him. 2-1 and 2-0 in matches

Round 3 was against reanimator. Round 1 we both durdled a bit, him not getting his pieces together, me bolting him twice. I manage to land a dreadnought with him on 12 life, he tries to force and I force back. On his turn he manages to scramble his resources and entombs a Blazing Archon and subsequently goes down to two when reanimating (he fetched on his turn). I'm starting to feel like I'm in the deep end of the pool since I'd already used 2 of my bolts but I manage to rip a Lavamancer off the top and he concedes the game.

Game 2 I mull a shitty hand and he keeps his hand. I played like a true noob this game and forced his turn 1 Thoughtsieze, pitching a delver and prompting a force from his end, causing him to take the Standstill from my hand of 2 Misty Rainforest, Wasteland and Standstill... However, I rip a delver from the top, flip him on my next turn and all in all manage to keep the big scary things away, luck is also a factor I guess. 2-0 and 3-0 in matches

Round 4 I faced Dredge: winning the die roll I decide to go first, opening with an island and a round 2 dreadnought. He tries to go off but fails due to shitty dredges. Game 2 he finds an Ancient Grudge for my nought and I get beat up by flying jellyfish.

Game 3 was a close one, he had me on the ropes with an 8/8 Grave-Troll and 6 Zombie Tokens, I Ice his land and draw a Tormod's crypt (he had 1 Ichorid, 3 Bridges and 2 Ancient Grudges) and on my next turn I remove his graveyard, play double dreadnought and then won the race.

All in all I'm happy with the deck, it was a blast to play and really felt like it had good game against the decks I faced, especially considering this was the first time I played it. I don't really like the Spell Snares though, I barely faced a single 2 CC spell all night, would've prefered them to be Spell Pierces and I often sideboarded that way as well.

[Rood]

Basically Reanimator and Ichorid are two of Dreadstill's matchups I'm least excited to see...so props on handling both very well. I see you run 5 GY hate in the sb it's almost come down to this for me too. I think that GY-based strategies are starting to become a polarizing theme in legacy sadly with Griselbrand running rampant.

Here's my stand on Snare: The matchups you faced Snare is going to be absolutely garbage. But against alot of decks it's still very powerful. I think it's still worth running even though it didn't help you maybe against those specific matchups it will come through for you in others you did not see.

[Atog]

Tenbin:

Did that basic mountain ever screw your mana up? And how was 4th nought & 5 stifle efects? Were those enought or did you wish you had run 2nd trickbind?

HaShugz7:

How has your new list working? Has snapcasters been good? Stifling opponents fetch, and using that later by snapcaster to stone rain them again or use that for nought seems good, but little mana intensive. Have md lightning bolts been good for you?

[HaShugz7]

HaShugz7:

How has your new list working? Has snapcasters been good? Stifling opponents fetch, and using that later by snapcaster to stone rain them again or use that for nought seems good, but little mana intensive. Have md lightning bolts been good for you?

I havent had much time to test yet but I have used the 3 bolt main plenty and I've liked it a lot. I want 2 more CA cards so I figured with bolt and all the other cards that snap would naturally fit in...I will be trying it in a few weeks and let u know.

[Piceli89]

So, I decided to smash my head around this deck again for the 100th time and I have a couple of things to say. For reference, this is what I came up with these days:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vendilion Clique (I need a decent 12th critter against combo)

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Lightning Bolt

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
(playing only with 2 Volcs maindeck to me is impossible, given Lavamancer needs basic mountain.)


I like how the deck is structured. Grim Lavamancer and Delvers are good enablers to Standstill, which leads to getting ahead if seen early enough. There is only one thing I can't seem to swallow (or understand enough):

How much does Dreadnought suck?
(keep reading, reasons below)

I mean, I read here people going "uh, so powerful, unexpected wins..".
That card doesn't nothing, on its own. And by nothing, I mean NOTHING. It stucks in your hand waiting for a Stifle to come, or a Brainstorm. What's worse, it sometimes forces you to play unnaturally saving the Stifle when a target that may be crucial is on the stack, just because "maybe I draw Dreadnought". And when you burn that Stifle, Dreadnought is obviously the card you drew immediately after.
The deck is solid enough, barring those 4 cards (3, in my case) that are absolutely dead:
-A virtual mulligan on 6 if you open with it (or them, I can't even imagine).
-A virtual drawstep skipped.
-Doesn't pitch to Force.
-Dead against combo, where you'd save Stifle for something else or you don't want to burn 2 cards.
-Feeds enemy's goyf with the only type of card-artifact- that tempo decks don't run, if discarded or countered or binned.
[By the way: this deck runs 12 critters, among which 8 are weak to dead against Storm combo and Sneak-Show. I feel at least 2 Cliques between main and side are a necessity.]

The only valid argument I see for running Dreadnought is that it gives UR the possibility to win a matchup that would be otherwise unwinnable, which is Threshold, because of Mongoose and Goyf being unmanageable by the small x/1 critters- given you see it in time. In every other matchup, is a risky 2x1 that I'm not so eager to run if I sit across a deck that plays Jace, Deed, Plows, EE, Snapcasters, Spell Pierces, Counterspells, Terminus, combo-kills. Notice I named half of the current decks right now.

On a deeper, less nerdrage-y analysis: the Dreadnought plan only works if you manage to make the rest of the deck go around. I.e., getting card advantage with Standstill. Otherwise, is a 2x1 which happens to get you in trouble if it goes bad. Furthermore, there are times when you are trading 1 for 1s with your opponent (aggro and control), and it happens you draw Dreadnought. That's why I'm so skeptical about it, and I seriously question myself whether would I be ready to run that risk during a tournament. It feels to me like running Canadian Threshold with a less-shaky manabase, a form of gaining cards lost to Force of Will, but some other poor slots. Which translates into total dependancy of those cards by the CA engine. Which- unfortunately- happens to be extremely situational, and oftentime lackluster on the draw (take Maverick).
Midrange Stiflenought lists used to lower the risk of having a Dreadnought stopped by either running 1 or accomodating Jace (Dark Confidant was also a choice), which is a costy but safe way to ensure both more cards, and the right cards. Given those won't work that well because the format has gotten faster and Daze+Delver is very good, it all becomes a sort of fragile decks with clunky parts on their own that happen to win you the game only if the rest of the other cards ensure you to get on.
This is my impression from this deck; I may be wrong or this concept ma be flawed because of poor play (it could be), but I doubt so. I can recognize losses from my own play mistakes and those that occur when I'm in a tight spot, on the verge of gaining the edge, and I draw a 12/12 "look, I'm a dead card". I was testing against a competent pilot and I drew three of them in a row. Ok, bad luck doesn't make a rule, but in general this liability makes things just too shaky and unreliable. I am not doubting Roodmistah's results, nor the others. I just ask how much a deck that runs 4 blanks could end up losing to itself and its bad draws on a lengthy scale of matches. Would you feel comfortable picking this over Canadian Threshold or Esperblade and have these inconsistences showing up potentially every round?

Impressions? Feel free to disagree or to contest my argument.


A card, instead, that never ceases to amaze me is Gitaxian Probe. That one seriously wins games, and it's necessary in a combo-esque deck like this. I can't see it being cut before the 4th daze, the trickbind, and the ponders.

EDIT: please note that I'm trying to figure things out from a competitive perspective. Which means I'm doubting Dreadnought's power against players that are really good at the game and against which is always a tight game of attrition where even a whiffed moment means losing the grip. I could get a positive feeling because I carry on smashing face with it against the Cockatrice scrubs I meet almost always when I end the game with 7 cards in hand because I chained 3 Standstills and even a Calcite Snapper would have won there, but that would be deceiving. I hope I don't sound too borious and that you understand what I'm trying to explain.

[sdematt]

Your concerns are exactly how I feel many times. EXACTLY.

A few things I disagree with, however:

1) Gitaxian Probe not being an instant sucks ass. It really does.

2) The UR version lacks some of the awesomeness I loved in the UB version.

3) I love Standstill, but sometimes, if they already have Delver online, it can be super awkward.

4) This deck needs Torpor Orbs.

The reason I loved the Russian version of this deck was being able to Stifle everyone, and leave Torpor Orb online until I draw a Dreadnought. Dreadnought is this deck's biggest strength and liability. How many times I've been Spell Pierced, Dazed, Forced, etc. out of the game. Sometimes, they just have more counters.

-Matt

[Hopo]

Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament. Being a 2-card combo, it of course has the tendency to sometimes suck and there's not much you can do about it. But you can tweak your consistency by adjusting the numbers, as that's what this game is for. The good thing is that it is essentially blue, like Delver. That gives you two effective blue win conditions making you almost a mono blue deck.

The lack of Stifle is a problem, but it works both ways: you have something productive to do with your Stifles after the first turns as well. To go around the problem of nought being a dead draw, I suggest to start adding Trickbinds. The format is swarming with Stifle targets and for example miracle control is a real deck now. Trickbind could be your single best card against them.

The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore.

[Atog]

Have anyone played recently with http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20TarnNot of This World? (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Not%20of%20This%20World)? Or is it just unnecessary? That being free to cast is huge advantage but have you felt that you needed that? It just feels that Forcing opponents StoP isn't what you want to do. There's that you can let it resolve, but if you can protect your nought two turns you just win if they don't have another StoP. I know sideboard is choked right now, but i was thinking if you put lightning bolts in main, and NoTW in that slot you could fit them in. Opinions?

[dsck]

Have anyone played recently with http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20TarnNot of This World? (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Not%20of%20This%20World)? Or is it just unnecessary? That being free to cast is huge advantage but have you felt that you needed that? It just feels that Forcing opponents StoP isn't what you want to do. There's that you can let it resolve, but if you can protect your nought two turns you just win if they don't have another StoP. I know sideboard is choked right now, but i was thinking if you put lightning bolts in main, and NoTW in that slot you could fit them in. Opinions?

I used to play some of those (2 years ago?) but it being VERY situational is negative enough not to run it.

[Hopo]

Not of this world is even more situational than dreadnought itself. You need nought, Stifle and NOTW. You cannot protect your delvers or factories with it. I played it also around 2 years ago in a dreadstill list with countertop and cunning wish and remember never wishing for it. It's a card that looks a lot better than it actually is. The thing is that Force of Will counters anything, including Terminus.

Vision Charm is a lot better card if you absolutely want more protection. It counters a removal spell (even Qasali Pridemage's activation) and enables dreadnought. I would still play Trickbind over Charm all day in current metagame.

[Atog]

Not of this world is even more situational than dreadnought itself. You need nought, Stifle and NOTW. You cannot protect your delvers or factories with it. I played it also around 2 years ago in a dreadstill list with countertop and cunning wish and remember never wishing for it. It's a card that looks a lot better than it actually is. The thing is that Force of Will counters anything, including Terminus.

Vision Charm is a lot better card if you absolutely want more protection. It counters a removal spell (even Qasali Pridemage's activation) and enables dreadnought. I would still play Trickbind over Charm all day in current metagame.

That might be true yes. I just play in removal heavy metagame where i thought that could shine. Before anybody says "you should then play different deck" i disagree.

[sdematt]

If you're in a removal heavy meta Atog, try 1-2 Kira in the board.

Also, Vision Charm is super sweet High Tide hate.

"Time Spiral, floating 5 blue mana"

"Vision Charm, Islands are Assembly Workers/Deserts/whatever"

"5 blue mana floating to finish combo'ing...not going to happen"

-Matt

[HaShugz7]

Is anyone else worried about the soon to be rise of Merfolk with the extra Lord of Atlantis? I think that it's going to destroy 3 of the top decks now
(reanimator, RUG, UWx control).

Because of the rise of Merfolk I'm wondering which color is going to be the best moving forward.

UR - Gives us access to Bolt and Lavamancer but if they get double lord it's really bad. I've also thought about Spinal Villain for that matchup.
UB - gives us access to GFTT and Inquisition and Thoughtseize as well as massacre for the maverick and esper matches.
UW - Gives us access to swords and path as well as stoneforge, in testing I've noticed that a Batterskull is almost as good gm 1 at stealing wins as much as dreadnought is. I would also say peacekeeper would be good but I'm sure Merfolk will be packing dismember for that and for llawan.

Also, I'm really liking Torpor Orb right now

[Atog]

Is anyone else worried about the soon to be rise of Merfolk with the extra Lord of Atlantis? I think that it's going to destroy 3 of the top decks now
(reanimator, RUG, UWx control).

Because of the rise of Merfolk I'm wondering which color is going to be the best moving forward.

UR - Gives us access to Bolt and Lavamancer but if they get double lord it's really bad. I've also thought about Spinal Villain for that matchup.
UB - gives us access to GFTT and Inquisition and Thoughtseize as well as massacre for the maverick and esper matches.
UW - Gives us access to swords and path as well as stoneforge, in testing I've noticed that a Batterskull is almost as good gm 1 at stealing wins as much as dreadnought is. I would also say peacekeeper would be good but I'm sure Merfolk will be packing dismember for that and for llawan.

Also, I'm really liking Torpor Orb right now

I really don't agree that merfolk is going to destroy rug or reanimator. RUG still has bolts and sideboard red blasts to destroy Lords, and reanimator gets online blazing archon ja merfolks is just death to that g1.

Also, double lord does nothing vs. Bolt. Also if they get double lord online you bolt one, and lavamancer other ideally.

Have you tested Torpor Orb now? In what's place you run it?

[HaShugz7]

I really don't agree that merfolk is going to destroy rug or reanimator. RUG still has bolts and sideboard red blasts to destroy Lords, and reanimator gets online blazing archon ja merfolks is just death to that g1.

Also, double lord does nothing vs. Bolt. Also if they get double lord online you bolt one, and lavamancer other ideally.

Have you tested Torpor Orb now? In what's place you run it?

I was meaning if they get double lord vs a Lavamancer

I've been testing 2 Orb in place of 2 Trick...both have their pros and cons but I like how orb stops a lot of popular creatures right now.

I still love Trickbind and it's overall versatility is prob best

[Piceli89]

Long post to come.


Your concerns are exactly how I feel many times. EXACTLY.

A few things I disagree with, however:

1) Gitaxian Probe not being an instant sucks ass. It really does.

2) The UR version lacks some of the awesomeness I loved in the UB version.

3) I love Standstill, but sometimes, if they already have Delver online, it can be super awkward.

4) This deck needs Torpor Orbs.

The reason I loved the Russian version of this deck was being able to Stifle everyone, and leave Torpor Orb online until I draw a Dreadnought. Dreadnought is this deck's biggest strength and liability. How many times I've been Spell Pierced, Dazed, Forced, etc. out of the game. Sometimes, they just have more counters.

-Matt

1) I wouldn't define free hand information that saves tempo and allows you to plan the entire course of your future plays "sucking ass", especially for a deck that aims half of the time to mana-screw the opponent before estabilishing its race. Sometimes it's pretty hilarious to attempt at Stiflewasting an opponent that has kept a 5 lander.
If Probe was an instant it would be broken and as played as Brainstorm, perhaps even by non-blue decks too, since it comboes with Surgical Extraction and the likes. I'd also like to remind how crucial hand information is when you face across an unknown opponent and not at your local store, and you don't have the remotest clue about what are you facing. Not to mention to understand what the other is holding and which line of play he's carrying on *in every stage of the game*, which is very valuable against skilled players. And, as you yourself mentioned, knowing when Dreadnoughting would end up make you losing and shuffling it away with Brainstorm is something I wouldn't dismiss at all.
Perhaps Peek is the card you're looking for, even if I'm confident enough you can understand the differences by yourself. After all, this format is dominated by zero-cc spells.
2) "Awesomeness" is a vague term, and I don't know what means for you. I want to play decks that are strong and consistent enough to make me win as much as possible, I don't care for deck with a sheer coolness factor, otherwise I'd be playing Pitch World every tournament.
While we're at it, I think red better fits the aggressive philosophy of a tempoed Stiflenought version, while having Pyroblast which is the best sideboard card in this metagame. Black, otoh, offers the tools to skullfuck that silly concoction of dorks that is Maverick, both in Perish and Massacre, as well as an important source of protection in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek. But I guess this is something you already knew very well.

3) Talking about avoiding playing glass cannons, I won't ever understand how one may hope that he will be able to shoot down a power 1 drops without Bolts maindeck for an entire tournament. Mother in herself may not be a problem, but Mother protecting Thalia would. Same for Delver; same on the play for bolting a Hierarch and then putting Standstill instead of losing a turn. Lavamancer is a removal that folds to removal, not completely reliable.

4) Torpor Orb shuts down Snapcaster recycling Plow and Clique as well as Mystic, but doesn't synergize with Delver, doesn't pitch to Force,sicks it to every counter of the format and post-board against Threshold may wind up giving you (further) blowouts with Dreadnought on stack if Ancient Grudge is around. Trickbind is better.


Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament. Being a 2-card combo, it of course has the tendency to sometimes suck and there's not much you can do about it. But you can tweak your consistency by adjusting the numbers, as that's what this game is for. The good thing is that it is essentially blue, like Delver. That gives you two effective blue win conditions making you almost a mono blue deck.

The lack of Stifle is a problem, but it works both ways: you have something productive to do with your Stifles after the first turns as well. To go around the problem of nought being a dead draw, I suggest to start adding Trickbinds. The format is swarming with Stifle targets and for example miracle control is a real deck now. Trickbind could be your single best card against them.

The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore.

Look, I respect your experience with Dreadnought decks because I've read that you got byes for Ghent with this list and you're playing them since 2 years, but I think you pretty much circumvented my objections with short, general statements.


Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament.
To be honest, I'm counting the times I've lost because of a dead Dreadnought and times I've won because of it, and I'm on something like 85 to 15. It's also valuable to notice that it gets there with a total degree of success just against Threshold and Burn; in the other matchups I almost always tend to side it out, because I don't want to run the risk of drawing into it in a crucial state of the game and cleaning my ass with a card that does NOTHING. Or getting 2x1ed by a topdeck. I don't always have the perfect 6 cards to make it through, opponents happen to disrupt me as well. Neither I want to warp the way I play my Stifles, because losing one second with such a deck means you're getting behind very quickly. It also happens that it sometimes does not pop up in time in those few matchups where it would shine, while I'm being ravaged by Mongese and Goyfs. Dreadnought is a card that require a very dedicated setup and an all-around strategy, at least here. It's like a Show and Tell deck more often than not: two card-combo with a handful of counters as backup. You also have parallel plans in the form of Delver, but let's be honest:


My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore

As much as Delver of Secrets is a busted 1-drop, it is manegeable by the majority of good decks. It's not that it is another big cow that resists the more common removals, as Tombstalker would be; it can churn 4 to 6 points of damage, but eventually will eat it to Forked Bolt, Bolt, Swords to Plowshares. Delver's greatest power stays in the fact that it's busted in the first 3 turns if it flips immediately, but it will eventually die.
Not to mention that it drawn mid-game means having a weak 1/1 that has to wait a full turn to (perhaps) become being relevant on a board that, meanwhile, has been filled with threats that can handle it very well. From Reliquary to Maze of Ith to Jitte, to enemy flipped Delvers. More time means more cantrips, which mens higher chances for your opponent to find a removal. Also, I want you to notice how poorly it works with only 23 to 25 i/s in this deck, compared to Threshold where it's fully optimized.
All this is to say: I recognize Delver adds another good tool to the beatdown section of the deck. I just don't want you to use it as a sort of pretext to justify Dreadnought, because they quite don't overlap in terms of cards that hose them (except Swords and Terminus and Jace), and both are bad in certain parts of the game or situations. It's not like Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster, which, although costy, are all-around good and will always provide *immediate* utility in a form or another. In mid-game, this deck lacks creatures like that: good immediately, as soon as they touch ground. Except Dreadnought, which suffers the opposite problem.
Ah, the fact that both are blue is a bonus as well as a weakness, given Pyroblast is the card that will be first sided against this deck. They also both die to Explosives.



The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

This is true, but Standstill still remains the most situational CA engine around. And how are you sure you will be able to exploit it if left in certain matchups, like Maverick, where you could find yourself craving for answers from a moment to another, and you draw Standstill? Are you so confident you can leave it such a card, trusting that eventually you'll be able to gain momentum and board?
On the other hand, if you side it out, you may run into your deck becoming that tempo-deck thingie you were talking about previously that tries to either screw or dying. A sort of Canadian Threshold deck. With the exception that you run 3/4 horrible, sucky creatures on a grand total of 11/12.
You see my point? For instance, I'd like to share this:

Midrange Stiflenought UB (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7389&iddeck=53764)

This list is able to support Dreadnought, because it runs TEN pieces of *constant* card advantage (Confidant, Snapcasters, Jace) that make up for the full number of 12/12. It also has a better protection in the form of Counterbalance, and doesn't rely exclusively on Nought as a win condition because it can also win by burying the opponent in CA so that Jace can become to ramp. In the way I see it, this sort of configuration is way better suited to adapt such a card, and also works cutting it in the matchups where it sucks. What are you left with if you cut Dreadnought in the matchups where it's risky? A tempo deck with 8 1/1s as beaters? So you're basically forced to let it in almost always. And this implies the problems I wrote about before: if a part happens to not show up or being weak in a certain matchup, everything else is seriously hampered too. It's like a broken lamp held together with tape, if you get the metaphor. You touch a part, and the rest folds or becomes unglued. Threshold sometimes suffers from this, but Mongoose is such a threat that it is able to get it done on its own with the help of a couple of disruptions here and there. Delver is not; Dreadnought is IF you find the Stifle, IF it resolves and IF it sticks, and the answers to it have increased exponentially. It's not 2009 anymore.

If someone wants to collect these "taunts" and talk about the deck with me, please PM me. Or play with me on Cockatrice, nickname is Space Dye Vest.
Show me I'm wrong.

[Hopo]

piceli, I don't mean to oppose you. I didn't even quote you. I just wrote how I feel about dreadnoughts at the moment. Your analysis looks quite spot on to me. I see this as a metagame deck, not something you could play for years at high level. Dreadnoughts are good when Stifle is good.

Dreadnought by definition sometimes lacks. I just see it as a risk vs. reward thing. The inconsistencies come with great power, and it's up to you to decide if that is the position where you want to be. I can only try to mitigate the issues by playing with a higher Stifle/nought ratio (6/4 or even 6/3).

The card advantage issue is always there when you play this deck. I used to approach this by playing not direct draw but creatures that generate card advantage, like Confidant, Lavamancer and Kira. Then lightning bolt took over the format and confidant became somewhat unreliable, while Kira was one to two turns too slow. Standstill works great with powerful 1-drops, as well as can be a dead card in certain situations. Still, delver into standstill is really powerful and as long as it serves me, I just dig this.

[sdematt]

I think you misunderstood. I said Probe not being an instant sucked. I was under the impression and very excited about the card until I was stopped by a friend reminding me it was a sorcery. Maybe that's why I'm not a huge fan is the let down, but I'm just saying.

Yes, awesomeness is vague. I wasn't looking to make a huge compare and contrast essay between the two version for your critical analysis. I was just making a general comment. I can go into detail about what I like and what I miss, however.

You needn't run Bolts to have removal. Black also has removal in the form of Ghastly Demise, Vendetta, Dismember, etc. If I had Black, I'd also Thoughtseize that out of his hand. Lightning Bolt is able to apply pressure as well as serve as removal for most creatures, so that's one of the main things I would miss if I were to go back to the UB version.

How does Torpor Orb not have synergy with Delver? Are you just referring to the fact it's not an instant or sorcery? Fine, that's fair, but you've got many, many other Instants and Sorceries.

Not pitching to Force? In a deck with almost 30 blue cards? Really?

Trickbind is better in that, yes, it does pitch to Force of Will. Yes, it will counter a Jace bounce, or a Fetchland, etc. But, having a constant ability on the board to not only enable you, but disable other cards in your opponents' decks is also very good. It lets you not keep both pieces in hand to avoid disruption, and saves on mana in that critical turn. I think both have their uses, but I've liked Torpor Orb. I'll try Trickbind again, and maybe I'll even run a split of these.

-Matt

[Vandalize]

Torpor Orb is very fine in the main deck. It enables double Dreadnought casting in the same turn, WHILE shutting of ETB triggers from Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Goblins.dec, etc.

Pitching to Force of Will isn't really an argument for a deck that plays 20+ blue spells.

Dreadnought, as a 3~4-of in this deck, you'll very often have two in your hand, and sometimes you don't have Brainstorm to shuffle it away. So why not just play a card that enables you to play them both?

I've been tinkering something for the UB build:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Standstill
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Echoing Truth
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus

I don't think UR and UB lists play the same way, both have their pros and cons. But in the UB shell, you can protect Dreadnought better by using proactive discard + Bob's natural removal magnet. Still, UR has Grim Lavamancer to work under Standstill and a little burn to gain some reach (I don't even need to mention Pyroblasts post-board).

I'd like to fit a basic Swamp somewhere in the maindeck, but cutting basic Islands weakens Daze. What should I cut?

EDIT: I'll probably go for -1 Island, -1 Daze, +1 Swamp, +1 Ponder.

[Piceli89]

I didn't mean to bash neither of you, guys. I was trying to put out my doubts in a constructive way, sorry if my tone was a bit too harsh.

As for "don't pitching to Force": there are times when you have a dead Force of Will in hand, and you draw Dreadnought. You may also like to keep the other blue cards if you hade them in hand, since they're likely to be relevant (counters or Delver). It's not really about the blue count issue, it is about Dreadnought being able potentially to have other uses, and it doesn't.

I will try out Torpor Orb, but for the moment I'm focusing on something more consistent and less risky.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys...been having good success with this list

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind

4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Factory
3 Misty
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic

SB:

3 REB
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Gilded Drake
2 Dismember
2 Engineered Explosives

Snapcaster has been great and I don't miss Lavamancer at all...also gives you 24 spells for delver which has been blind flipping just a bit more for me lately.

[SupREME-10]

Hey guys, I am new to this thread and just adapting to the deck still, but I do like what I have been reading so here is my take on a few things.

1 - I really like the deck above: but I would get 2x grim lavamancer into it by removing a snapcaster mage and possibly a daze. I agree that you want plenty of potential to blind flip Delver of Secrets but have found that 22+ is generally enough, especially with fetches and brainstorms when needed.

2 - I am not a huge fan of Dissmember even in the board. I think that tormod's crypt or relic of progenitus might help more vs dregde and reanimator and they are more common for me to see.

3 - torper orb is solid tech but I don't know what I would cut to fit it into the deck - so seriously guys I am wide open to suggestions in this department.

Thanks for sharing guys and hope to see you hitting top 8's soon.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Roodmistah...

How's that RUG version coming?

[HaShugz7]

Played at a small 20 man tourney Sunday, finished top 4

Here's the list I played..

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Grim

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Bolt
3 Snare
2 Trickbind

4 Factory
4 island
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding tarn

4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
3 REB
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm

Rd 1 vs Dredge

Yea the 1 matchup I was hoping to dodge since I gambled with no graveyard hate.

gm 1 I daze his putrid imp and get a turn 2 nought and force his looting.

gm 2 I needle his imp and REB his narcomoeba at end of his draw step to keep him from comboing out with dread return

I was very surprised to have won this match but i think it goes to show that even without GY hate that we can still interact with them...dont get me wrong it's still a horrible matchup but I dont think it's unwinnable

Rd 2 vs Stompy

gm 1 I wasn't sure what he was playing so I kept a bolt delver hand and he led with inkmoth and went for the turn 2 kill but bolt saved the day and delver went the distance.

gm 2 I kept a 3 submerge hand...does anything else really need to be said???

Rd 3 vs Maverick

gm 1 I mull to 5 but fight back on the back of lavamancer and standstill...have a lethal nought on board but he tops a GSZ to get the pridemage to kill and swing in with Knight.

gm 2 I get him down to 4 but he gets a scryb ranger and as soon as I find the lavamancer he answers with scavenging ooze while having a cradle in play.

does anyone else find Maverick to be annoying? It's just so hard to deal with knight in the mid late game and they have so many answers to nought...submerge was good I just couldnt find a burn to take down his ranger to swing in for the win.

rd 4 vs Esper Stoneblade

gm 1 I stifle his fetch and then play delver and stifle his fetch again...he never saw another land

gm 2 I get triple sworded and he stabalized with souls tokens and jitte.

gm 3 he mulled to 5 while I kept a nut 7 hand with delver into standstill with daze and force backup

rd 5 - ID

quarters vs UR Delver

gm 1 he has a good start and I couldn't get enought burn to stabalize with the 2 standstills in hand...could have played nought but wouldn't have saved me so I decided not to show info.

gm 2 I was glad I didn't show info...he went delver delver while I went nought turn 2 and he scooped

gm 3 I had a lot of removal and just waited for the 3rd land to play nought with trickbind...he didn't see that...spell snare also saved the day vs smash to smithereens

semis vs esper stoneblade (from rd 4)

gm 1 after a long gm i'm at 3 life while he's at 3 life...he has a spirt token on field with 1 jitte counter on it...I just swung with nought so anyone else would just scoop knowing it was over...but he was a new legacy player so I thought i'd go ahead and play it out to see if he would make a mistake...I played delver and then a standstill with no cards left in hand...on his turn instead of just swinging and winning he played a brainstorm which drew me into bolt...once he pumped his token I bolted him for the win...just goes to show never give up until you've lost.

gm 2 he rips my hand with 4 IOK and kills me with jitte on spirit tokens

gm 3 was long and drawn out...I had a needle on his batterskull and jitte...but he got the jace and beat me down with tokens...i really wished I had played sulfur elemental

Overall I was pleased with the deck and will def play it going forward...I like the main a lot but could see a few changes but I mainly want to focus on figuring out a good plan vs maverick so if any of you guys have a good idea let me know..

here's the list I'm testing going forward

4 Naught
4 Delver
3 Grim
2 Snapcaster

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 trickbind

Any comments or SB ideas would be great

[SupREME-10]

Nice report and well done. I am considering 2x fire/ice in the mainboard as it is so versatile and helps vs maverick. I also think that the Snapcasters will help you, hell I would even go with 3 of them as they can be that good. Trickbind also has me thinking though as stifle gives us turn 2 dreadnought plays but trickbind stalls us a full turn, so has anyone considered Vision Charm in this slot. Yes I know that it limits some options that trickbind grants, but it also open other options and allows the Dreadnought play on turn 2 still.

Going back to your report I must say that stealth play vs delver was great, and winning on a game that you seriously should have lost to an inexperiened player is funny, but don't ever bank on that happening again - nicely done once again, and I hope you scored some good loot for your efforts.

Cheers

[HaShugz7]

Even though Trickbind slows us down a turn I love it because of the split second...a lot of people will force the stifle instead of the nought and u can blow em out with Trickbind. I've also won vs 4 maze of ith because of the split second and them not being able to activate the others...Trickbind is def awsome and i will always play 1 and sometimes 2...especially with all the miracle triggers running around.

[Anen]

I've also won vs 4 maze of ith because of the split second and them not being able to activate the others..


If a permanent's ability is countered this way, activated abilities of that permanent can't be activated this turn.

You can't do that. Even if they have the same name, they are different permanents so your opponent could have still activate its 3 remaining mazes.

[Hopo]

I've also won vs 4 maze of ith because of the split second and them not being able to activate the others...

Yeah, this is pretty sloppy play from both of you as that is not how the card works. But otherwise I agree regarding Trickbind being awesome. And it is invaluable against miracles.

[SupREME-10]

Thanks for the response in regard to Trickbind as that was what I was thinking but sometimes some outside thoughts and angles help.

Anyway here is where I am taking my Deck.

Deck List

4 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 x Delver of Secrets
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Grim Lavamancer

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Daze
2 x Fire/Ice
2 x Ponder
3 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Stifle
2 x Trickbind

3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
4 x Mishra's Factory


Sideboard

2 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
1 x Gilded Drake
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Pyroblast


Comments and thoughts welcome but so far it has been pretty decent for me, and last night I ran it like Delver for as long as I could vs each opponent and man some Jaws hit the table when I did cast the Dreadnought games 2 or 3; but surprisingly I was able to race many game 1's on the back of Delver and Grim's.

[HaShugz7]

Yeah, this is pretty sloppy play from both of you as that is not how the card works. But otherwise I agree regarding Trickbind being awesome. And it is invaluable against miracles.

Hmm...even the judge allowed it...but I'm glad I know now thx

[Rood]

Dismember is key towards beating Maverick. Lavamancers/Bolts clear the way for the enablers (Heirarch, etc). Dismembers for killing all the beefy dudes (Knight, etc)

[HaShugz7]

Anyone else excited about the new Izzet Charm?

UR

Choose 1

Counter non creature spell unless they pay 2
2 damage to a creature
Draw 2 and discard 2

I love the flexibility

[SupREME-10]

I like the new Izzet Charm; but due to it's Casting Cost I think it will be more of a Casual card than something that I would run in a true Legacy deck.

Here is a comparison for you.
Vision Charm for use in Merfolk decks, it looks cool but it is just not as good as something else that you need to remove to fit it into the deck

Cheers

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

This thread's the closest. Here's what I have:

20 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

12 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember

15 Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

[SupREME-10]

This thread's the closest. Here's what I have:

20 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

12 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember

15 Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

Were you looking for the RUG Delver or Canadian Thresh thread, you might want to look here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-%28a.k.a.-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh%29) instead.


Back on topic

I was considering dumping the Standstill from my deck and going more like this.

Deck List

4 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 x Delver of Secrets
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Grim Lavamancer

4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Daze
2 x Fire/Ice
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Stifle
2 x Trickbind

3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
4 x Mishra's Factory

Sideboard

2 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
1 x Gilded Drake
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Pyroblast

Any thoughts on adding more Dig, more Burn, and more Trickbind by removing the Stanstill's would be appreciated. I think the Standstill's are ok in a Meta full of Aggro; but otherwise they are a liability.

[whienot]

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS, your list is closer Next Level Threshold (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18865-Deck-Next-Level-Threshold/page1) than Dreadstill or Canadian Thresh.

[Vandalize]

Geez, this is the funniest deck I've played since Flash Hulk and Angry Tradewind Survival. Thanks god something is fun in magic again, with all these Show and Tell boringness laying arround.

This is my latest list, and I'd appreciate some advice from pros here:

[20]
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain

[13]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

[27]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trickbind

[15]
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

I added the 20th land to support Snapcaster Mage, which is a mana hungry bitch. If I went back to 4 Grim Lavamancer, I'd take out a Misty Rainforest for another Spell Pierce.

I'm favoring Spell Pierce over Spell Snare because it protects Dreadnought, and that's pretty good and useful.

Sideboard is geared to beat Show and Tell and Maverick, which are really boring matchups. RUG Delver is fine, because Stifle and Standstill are awesome against them.

I just skept graveyard hate because it's worthless. I won't ever win against Reanimator and Dredge if I'm not packing Leyline of the Void + something, so I just try to ingore it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I just skept graveyard hate because it's worthless. I won't ever win against Reanimator and Dredge if I'm not packing Leyline of the Void + something, so I just try to ingore it.

Surgical Extraction drawn off Standstill is pretty fun.

[Squirrel]

Surgical Extraction drawn off Standstill is pretty fun.

Dredging 3 times off your opponents two-mana-investment too

[kiblast]

Dredging 3 times off your opponents two-mana-investment too

Actually Standstill is the first thing that comes out g2 and g3 vs Dredge.

[Squirrel]

Actually Standstill is the first thing that comes out g2 and g3 vs Dredge.

I know, but if he draws Surgical Extraction off it, i don't think he boardet it out.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Dredging 3 times off your opponents two-mana-investment too

Obviously versus Reanimator.

[Rood]

Geez, this is the funniest deck I've played since Flash Hulk and Angry Tradewind Survival. Thanks god something is fun in magic again, with all these Show and Tell boringness laying arround.


I'm favoring Spell Pierce over Spell Snare because it protects Dreadnought, and that's pretty good and useful.


I actually like your list Vandal...the only thing I'm skeptical of is the lack of library manipulation you have :(. Do you ever find yourself wanting say a Top/extra ponder..or even preordain?. Pretty cool board, I still favor Pierce over Flusterstorm in almost every situation since it hits relevant permanents Fluster can't. Do you like Submerge over Dismember? I'm a huge advocator of Crucible...maybe it could work with your list?

Just some ideas to help. I love Echoing Truth btw.

[Grizzly_Bear]

Has anyone tried to merge dreadstill with the "russian" lists, i.e tombstalker/delver/nought-lists discussed in the new and developmental thread?

The problem as I see it is the lack of cardadvantage in the russian lists, while all black lists in this thread relies on the very fragile enginge in dark confidant.

What I want to achieve is a deck with relevant creatures besides nought, that still uses manlands and standstill to make up for the stifle/nought cardloss. Using Vandalize's list as a starting point, substitutions to black could be made as indicated:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn -> P. DELTA
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island -> UG SEA
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain -> SWAMP

[13]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer -> TOMBSTALKER
2 Snapcaster Mage -> additional pierce/trickbind?

[27]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt -> SNUFF OUT
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trickbind

[15]
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast -> additional counters? counterbalance, if tops are incorporated maindeck?
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble -> MASSACRE
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

Pros:
- More creatures that are not easily killed, i.e the awesomeness of tombstalker.
- Increased ability to remove problematic creatures MD.

Cons:
- No reach, win based entirely on attack phase
- The loss of Pyro/REB

[Vandalize]

I actually like your list Vandal...the only thing I'm skeptical of is the lack of library manipulation you have :(. Do you ever find yourself wanting say a Top/extra ponder..or even preordain?. Pretty cool board, I still favor Pierce over Flusterstorm in almost every situation since it hits relevant permanents Fluster can't. Do you like Submerge over Dismember? I'm a huge advocator of Crucible...maybe it could work with your list?

Just some ideas to help. I love Echoing Truth btw.

Sometimes I do, yes. Snapcaster Mage into Brainstorm gives a little card selection in the late game, but sometimes I brick on lands (usually color screw), or can't find a Brainstorm in time.

So -2 Snapcaster Mage, -1 Misty Rainforest -1 Trickbind +2 Ponder +1 Spell Pierce +1 Torpor Orb.

This deck can operate with 2 lands, and Torpor Orb does a great job against Legacy in general (except RUG). I've found Torpor Orb to be a house when we have multiple Dreadnought stuck in hand, and against random bounce (like Stingscourger, for example).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What do you think is the correct fetch count for the new version of this deck.

8, 6, 5?

[SupREME-10]

Here is how I run my mana


3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
4 x Mishra's Factory


I have found 6 fetches to be enough as I do need to get the Basic often enough as well.

I hope that helps

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Here is how I run my mana


3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
4 x Mishra's Factory


I have found 6 fetches to be enough as I do need to get the Basic often enough as well.

I hope that helps

Sorry to nit-pit, I'm a bit OCD, would be it better to just run 4/2 between tarn and two other blue fetches to max your opportunity to get basic island and mountain?

[Grizzly_Bear]

Vandalize, could you give some pointers on how to use the sideboard with your deck.
In and out against the top dogs at least?
-RUG
-Maverick
-UW Miracles

Feel free to extend the list.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Took the following list to a 3-0-1 finish at my LGS tonight. Placed second on tie breaks.

21 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

5 Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

34 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Daze
1 Fire/Ice
1 Trickbind
1 Torpor Orb

15 Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Envelop
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Gilded Drake
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt

2-1, Maverick
2-1, Elves
2-1, Affinity
1-1-1, 12-Post

Yep. Liked the main deck. Torpor Orb was sick. It straight won me two games and never was a win-more.

Envelops were useless (against those matches). I wanted the fourth Spell Snare all night. Fire/Ice did it's job as a miser's slot.

Edit: Here's what I'll be testing going forward.

21 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

5 Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

34 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Daze
1 Fire/Ice
1 Trickbind
1 Torpor Orb

15 Sideboard
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Rood]

Strait old school list right there...love it. Are Evelopes strickly for the UW Miracle matchup? I often thought about this as an answer to for Terminus, since it's so hard to counter normally.

[HaShugz7]

Myself and my Friend Dustin (Scrum) played the same 75 this weekend and split top 4.

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Grim

4 Standstill
4 Force
4 BS
4 Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
1 Orb

4 Factory
4 Tarn
4 Volcanic
3 Waste
2 Island
2 Misty

4 Submerge
4 REB
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 BEB
2 Vendilion Clique

1-2 vs uw delver (4 path 4 swords 4 snag 4 Gut Shot...tough)
2-0 vs deadguy ale
2-0 vs Faerie Stompy
2-0 vs Dredge
ID

List was great

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Strait old school list right there...love it. Are Evelopes strickly for the UW Miracle matchup? I often thought about this as an answer to for Terminus, since it's so hard to counter normally.

Envelops aren't strictly for UW Miracles, but they're a huge reason I'm playing them. They also hit Show and Tell, GSZ and other random Sorceries I care about for a hard counter.

Spell Pierce is my least favorite card in Legacy right now. People can and will always play around it. Most cards I want to pierce are answered with Counterbalance anyway.

I can't Envelop a Jace, but that's why I run four red blasts. They're also good againt Show and Tell and Merfolk.

I don't see a good reason to play Spell Pierce right now. Sure storm combo is out there, but we have a pretty solid 60 to handle them anyway.

P.S. Tried the Delver list for a while, but it felt too durdly against Goblins and other heavy creature decks.

[Rood]

I am preparing for SCG this weekend, was wondering if anyone has seen alot of Abrubt Decay as of late. Was contemplating if Apostle's Blessing should be considered as a SB option for us?
Seems incredible good in Rock/BUG matchups, as well as being useful against UW with the 8 swords/path plan. Also against RUG, it can shut down Grudge, REB on Delver, Bolts, Fork bolt o.O.
Edit: Also gives us cool combat tricks postboard.

Also prevents Shatter. I know, someone had to say it.

[HaShugz7]

How'd u do Rodney? any updates to ur list?

[Yan]

Played a 29-player event yesterday. Went 3-1-1 with an ID. 4th place in the swiss and lost in the semifinals. I don't remind the games well enough to put up a decent report but something anyway:

1. round: Infect stompy (2-0), killed his guys and mana base, Dreadnought for the win.
2. round: MUD (2-1), I knew what he was playing so I mulliganed in to chalice hate.
3. round: Reanimator (1-2), got the nuts in the second game, but in the third he Show and Telled through my blast and Angel of Despair to destroy my cage, the proceeded to entomb and animate a Sphinx. My next turn 'nought couldn't race that.
4. round: Merfolk (2-0 or 2-1), Lavamancer beat him twice.
5. round: Reanimator (ID)

Quarters: Reanimator (2-0), the same player that I lost to. This time I drew better.
Semifinals: RUG Delver (1-2), first game mulligan to 4, got back to the game with Standstill but was unable to draw coloured lands after he wasted my volcanic. 4 Factorys got him to 4 but after he beat me anyways. Second game I mulligan to 4 again and keep a hand of delver, volcanic, lavamancer and 'nought. On the draw phase of my opponents 4th turn, he scoops to my board of lavamancer, delver, dreadnought and two lands, while he had 0 permanents :) Satisfying. Third game we both keep 7 (as he did in every game), but apparently his 7 seven was better than mine.

Tested Apostle's Blessing for fun. I sided it in only against RUG. Drew it once, but it got countered. I wanted to play it against some Abrupt Decay decks, but no luck. This deck just fails to fail me :) Top8-ing almost every event that I play with it.

edit. ooops, the list :) :

3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze

SB:
3 Graffdigger's Cage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
2 Apostle's Blessing

[kingsey]

How'd u do Rodney? any updates to ur list?

I'm curious myself how you did I've always loved beating face with a 12/12:tongue:

[jtos84]

Has anyone tried to merge dreadstill with the "russian" lists, i.e tombstalker/delver/nought-lists discussed in the new and developmental thread?

The problem as I see it is the lack of cardadvantage in the russian lists, while all black lists in this thread relies on the very fragile enginge in dark confidant.

What I want to achieve is a deck with relevant creatures besides nought, that still uses manlands and standstill to make up for the stifle/nought cardloss. Using Vandalize's list as a starting point, substitutions to black could be made as indicated:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn -> P. DELTA
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island -> UG SEA
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain -> SWAMP

[13]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer -> TOMBSTALKER
2 Snapcaster Mage -> additional pierce/trickbind?

[27]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt -> SNUFF OUT
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trickbind

[15]
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast -> additional counters? counterbalance, if tops are incorporated maindeck?
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble -> MASSACRE
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

Pros:
- More creatures that are not easily killed, i.e the awesomeness of tombstalker.
- Increased ability to remove problematic creatures MD.

Cons:
- No reach, win based entirely on attack phase
- The loss of Pyro/REB

I recently made a dreadnaught list while I was messing around with Team America Lists. I used sinkhole and stifle as well as dreadnauhts. I had tombstalkers and tarmogoys also. I went 4-0 in my playtesing, but I just scrapped the deck for various reasons. I used to play dreadstill quite a bit five years ago wth mixed results. In today's metagame torpor orb seems to be very important. I was not very fond of using dreadnaught in a metagame where tokens show up often because people start using engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, and pernicious deed. I was wondering if you guys ever use pithing needle in the s/b for this reason?

[dsck]

because people start using engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, and pernicious deed. I was wondering if you guys ever use pithing needle in the s/b for this reason?

All those eat stifle. I'd be more worried about abrupt decay and swords to plowshares.

[SupREME-10]

I use pithing needle; but as mentioned stifle owns most of them already.

[jtos84]

I use pithing needle; but as mentioned stifle owns most of them already.

I know that having enough stifles, or having the dreadnaught in hand becomes an issue. Using a stifle on engineered explosives would mean you lready have the dreadnaught in play, and having another stifle in hand is not always the case. I would think running discard would be good.

[Henrik]

I had some good experiences with the deck yesterday and thought I would share them. Went 4-0 in the local weekly tournament. I'll start off with the list and comment on the matches below.

4 delver
4 dreadnought
3 lavamancer

4 standstill
2 torpor orb

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 lightning bolt
4 stifle
3 spell pierce
3 daze

1 faerie conclave
4 mishra
4 wasteland
4 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 mountatin

SB:
3 pyroblast
2 vendilion clique
2 sulfuric vortex
2 jace beleren
2 engineered explosives
1 rough/tumble
2 relic of progenitus
1 grafdigger's cage


Round 1 vs Maverick, 2-1
G1 is a blow-out from me due to land-destruction. Bolt an Arbor, Waste a dual, and he was unfortunate enough not to draw more mana. Faerie Conclave and mishra finish the work. Random fun-fact; His only permanent in play when the game ended was a Sylvan Safekeeper, and my opponent was in fact Olle Råde. Ironic. G2 I land a nought 1-2 turns too late, as I am unable to race Thrun with an equiped batterskull. G3 I restraint his recources with an early 2for1 EE, nought end the game with Fow on removal. Olle mulled to 5. Lucky me.
Key spells: Delver (although he was hardly involved in this match) Bolt, EE, stifle/wasteland

Round 2 vs EsperBlade, 2-0
Details are fussy, but both games were similar in that his lack of counters made it easy for me to resolve evil stuff, while I could choose to ignore random spells and counter what mattered. Dreadnought took G1 against spirit-tokens + equipment. G2 I played standstill-mode and ended it with mishra and grim lavamancer.
Key spells: Torpor Orb. Dreadnought. Tokens are nothing to us, while UR and RUG actually have to struggle with that. Bolt and lavamancer can control all his dudes. Note that this list did not feature counterbalance, I can imagine UW/Esper-blade with countertop playing out entirely differently.

Round 3 vs TES, 2-0
I had a perfect starting hand G1, with just 1 land, delver and permission. Cheers. G2 I bring in Clique and blasts, but open stifle and triple wasteland, which is enough to deny him any mana at all long enough for a slow-flipped delver to get there. Pyroblasts on cantripps once he found the lands was icing on the cake.
Key spells: All counters. Delver and clique.

Round 4 vs Sneak & Show, 2-1.
G1 he has the nuts. Turn 1 S&T Emrakul with Fow-backup. I tilted a little bit, which I am ashamed of now. Sorry mate. That happens. G2 I manage to play a strong enough control game under a standstill, with stable land-drops while he discards at each EOT. When he finally breaks the standstill I draw up to 9 in my next draw phase, giving me a dreadnought and passing the turn with 7 cards of permission. Felt good. G3 was a thriller. Slow action from both players, with me starting to apply pathetic beats with mishra and an unflipped delver for 3-4 turns. He is still at 10-isch when he drops sneak attack. Even though he has 3 mana open, I play both my dazes to save my lands from annihilator. Sure enough, Emrakul swings in and wipe my board and drop me to 4. He is now in topdeck mode while I have 5 cards. land land lavamancer blast blast. I drop the man and start shooting. He fails to find a fatty to sneak, and I can save my ass by blasting his cantrips. I finish it in 3 more turns with the man and a mishra.
Key spells: I have no idea. Close your eyes and hope for the best. Blasts helps I guess.


Overall impression of the deck:
I had a real blast playing, it was the most fun I've had with a deck in while. It feels powerful, even though it's hard to describe exactly why, as it feels kinda swingy as well. I was entirely content with the maindeck, will do no changes there. However, large parts of the SB was left unused. I had geared it towards big three; Miracles, RUG and Maverick. Still, I believe it's worth putting some more effort on the Maverick-MU, my win there was mostly due to luck. With 10+ removal postboard, I feel Kira deserves a spot. Alternatively, boarding out dreadnoughts and bringing in a different strategy is an option. Inputs are most welcome.

[Lord Seth]

A bit of a random question, but how does this deck handle Lands? I've only just started playing it, and sometimes someone in my local meta plays Lands, so I'd like to be prepared for the matchup and I'm wondering how the deck handles it. It seems like it's favorable for them as they can bypass Standstill without too much trouble and blunt your aggression with the usual Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm mischief.

[Hopo]

A bit of a random question, but how does this deck handle Lands? I've only just started playing it, and sometimes someone in my local meta plays Lands, so I'd like to be prepared for the matchup and I'm wondering how the deck handles it. It seems like it's favorable for them as they can bypass Standstill without too much trouble and blunt your aggression with the usual Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm mischief.

If you absolutely need to prepare for it, just play Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon in sideboard.

[kingsey]

If you absolutely need to prepare for it, just play Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon in sideboard.

this, blood moon owns them.

[Vandalize]

After working and reworking the manabase, I've finally found one that makes me a little bit confortable (this deck mulligans a lot for lands). I was trying to squeeze basics, and tried them in various numbers and colors, but what's need to be said: Only one of each can suffice. 19 lands with 6 cantrips and topcurve = 2 is enough, we can work under 2~3 lands, anyways.

This is my latest deck, and I'd like to hear some of your opinion.

Lands [19]
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures [11]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer

Spells [30]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Torpor Orb
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

Sideboard [15]
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Spellskite

I've also been testing Spellskite as some form of removal magnet. Works good with artifact hate and sword-effects. Protecting Dreadnought once is enough for him to make a big damage, and that's good. The rest seems very fine for the rest of the metagame. Some aggro/combo control should suffice, since we do have a nice clock agaist combo.

[kiblast]

I like that manabase- I was playing with 4 Volcs last time I was playing UR Dreadstill (months ago).

Anyway, what's exactly stopping us from going BUG now that we have Deathrite Shaman? The guy is a freaking Lavamancer that fixes your mana, nets you life while hating on your opponent's graveyard g1 and blocks lackey and survives... I was thinking about something like:

4 Noughts
4 Delver
4 Dark Confidant (kind of replacement for Standstill as going BUG you can't afford Factory anymore)
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Usea
3 Tropicals
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland


Obviously is a very rough list, also, we don't have a thread for UBx non Still-Stiflenought here on the source I think. Otherwise I would write there.

[kingsey]

I like that manabase- I was playing with 4 Volcs last time I was playing UR Dreadstill (months ago).

Anyway, what's exactly stopping us from going BUG now that we have Deathrite Shaman? The guy is a freaking Lavamancer that fixes your mana, nets you life while hating on your opponent's graveyard g1 and blocks lackey and survives... I was thinking about something like:

4 Noughts
4 Delver
4 Dark Confidant (kind of replacement for Standstill as going BUG you can't afford Factory anymore)
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Usea
3 Tropicals
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland


Obviously is a very rough list, also, we don't have a thread for UBx non Still-Stiflenought here on the source I think. Otherwise I would write there.Very


Interesting....I like the idea with shaman, I think he is better then Grim as well... Is counterbalance playable to stop the swords to plowshares that constantly pwn our dreadnoughts?

[Hopo]

Is counterbalance playable to stop the swords to plowshares that constantly pwn our dreadnoughts?

Of course it's playable, but it takes 7-8 slots in the maindeck. You can't just put it in there.

Abrupt Decay is a problem for dreadnought and counterbalance. It even resolves through Kira, which is sad since it used to be a nice piece of protection here.

[Grizzly_Bear]

Perhaps, Spellskite > Kira ?

[kiblast]

Perhaps, Spellskite > Kira ?

Kira was a good protection tool. Because it's a creature with evasion and attacks for 2. But Spellskite doesn't seem a solid choice, as tapping 2 mana for a Wall it's not a good investment in legacy. I'd probably consider it if your meta is full of Canadian Threshold, since eats Bolt like a pro.

[Lord Seth]

I like Misdirection myself. It can protect the Dreadnought from things like Abrupt Decay, and has a lot of other uses besides.

[kingsey]

I like Misdirection myself. It can protect the Dreadnought from things like Abrupt Decay, and has a lot of other uses besides.

Makes playing bob much tougher with fow and misdirection maindeck.

[Lord Seth]

Most versions of the deck I see are running Spell Snare. Is there any particular reason for it? I tried out the deck at two local tournaments (at different stores) and only found them decent when I was facing Enchantress, and that was pretty much just because of Sterling Grove.

That said, gotta say I really like the deck, even though I have to play a semi-budget version with Steam Vents (Steam Vents instead of Volcanic Islands and a Trickbind instead of the fourth Stifle).

[Hopo]

Just stating the obvious: if you play in a meta where you are facing significant amounts of relevant, counterable 2-drops, Spell Snare is probably good to have. It's up to you to figure out if you need it.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys, just top 8d the SCG LA open

Here's the list I ran.

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Grim

4 FOW
4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Misdirection
1 Vision Charm
1 Top

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Misty

SB:

4 REB
4 Submerge
4 Envelop
3 Electrickery

Rd 1 - Junk

Mull to 4 gm 3 and get crushed

Rd 2 - BUG Delver

Gm 3 get turn 2 dreadnought and misdirect his abrupt decay to his goyf

Rd 3 - Belcher

Gm 1 he goes off turn 1 and first card he flips was the land...lol I was so shocked.

Gm 2 I kept double force and a stifle hand with delver

Rd 4 - Zombies

Gm 1 I thought he was just RB zombies and rolled the turn 2 nought but he was RGB and he decayed it.

Gm 2 I had double delver and misdirected his decay to his shaman

Gm 3 blew up his board with Electrickery and won with delvers

Rd 5 - Goblins

Gm 1 I had turn 2 nought which I vision charmed so he couldn't use stingscourger and then stifled the stun on his next turn

Gm 2 he had all caverns and couldn't play his smash so nought wins again

Rd 6 - RUG

Gm 1 turn 2 nought with double daze, they can't beat nought gm 1

Gm 2 mull to 5 vs his double delver

Gm 3 grim takes out his 2 delvers and get the nought out with double snare to stop grudge

Rd 7 - Nic Fit

Gm 1 had turn 2 nought and he didn't have answer

Gm 2 got him to 1 before sigara killed me

Gm 3 had delver into delver grim into standstill which blew him out

Rd 8 - BUG Delver

Gm 1 I'm at 3 vs his mongoose holding a nought and topdeck the stifle and then top a bolt to win it

Gm 2 lose to 3 decays and mull to 5

Gm 3 grim kills 4 shamans and 3 goyfs and 3 standstill a let me grind it out for the win

Rd 9 - RUG Caleb Durward

Gm 1 searched 4 turns and find stifle and got nought out the turn before I would have died.

Gm 2 I slow rolled the nought and he didn't have any answers to it.

Qtrs - BUG control

Gm 1 he mulled to 5 and I had turn 1 delver into turn 2 nought and blew him out

Gm 2 I kept a greedy 7 with island delver BS and 4 red spells and get punished by not getting red until turn 8

Gm 3 mull to 6 and keep 3 fetch 1 nought 1 misdirection 1 BS...drew 5 str8 land and couldn't misdirect his vision to myself and fall too far behind.

Overall I loved the deck and thought it was great...misdirection was amazing all day and I'm thinking about doing a 3/2 split between it FOW and misdirect...grim was and MVP all day.

I was extremely proud to finish 1st in the Swiss after losing round 1 and fought all the way back with a deck they say can't be played.

I have and always will play with nought and knowing the deck inside and out I'm sure helped along the way

[MTG Junkie]

I to have and will always have a special place in my heart for Nought.
Like the Misdirection tech.
Iv never used Vision Charm,how does that work?

Congratulations on you're finish :)

[Yan]

I played DreadStill too, in the Finnish Legacy Champs. The list was basically the same as posted a page or two a go.

Started the tournament with a nice 4-0 (Beat Goblins, OmniShow, TES and some funky mono white MUD/D&T hybrid, all of them 2-1)

Then hit the wall against EsperBlade (1-1-1), UW MiracleBlade (0-2) and finally White Staxx (1-2). Against that staxx, I lost game one to Chalice on first turn (he went first). Then destroyed him in the second game. We drew our hands for the third game and from his impressions, I figured out he has the turn 1 Chalice. I don't see a single FoW on my way to mulliganing to 3. He starts with a turn one Chalice and I concede.

Good tournament again and I was a bit unlucky to miss the top 8. Against that EsperBlade I could have stole the win with a little better play...maybe. Anyway, nice to see that this deck can still put up results even on the field of Abrupt Decays. After the tournament, I changed my sideboard to this:

3 Dismember
3 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

(md still the same)

No more grave hate, as I think this deck can fight graveyard deck just fine without. Engineered Explosives just to fight Chalice and maybe some tokens and random things. It has been great in testing at least. Others are pretty much obvious choices. I've also been pondering to replace Spell Pierces with Diverts, but at the moment I don't think it's worth it. Standstills and Factories win the Abrupt Decay decks anyway. :)

[HammafistRoob]

Grats on the finish shugz. I've been tinkering around a bit trying to get a Ubg list to run smoothly. So far it seems pretty powerful.Here's the list I have at the moment.

4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Standstill
2 Ponder


I'm not sold on the ponders but I'm not sure what else they could be. I think Abrupt Decay is really worth the awkward manabase. Thoughts?

[Hopo]

Hey Guys, just top 8d the SCG LA open

Here's the list I ran.

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Grim

4 FOW
4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Misdirection
1 Vision Charm
1 Top

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Misty

SB:

4 REB
4 Submerge
4 Envelop
3 Electrickery


Good job and solid looking list. Did you miss Trickbind? I have to say Vision Charm looks good now that Abrupt Decay and Terminus are everywhere.

[HaShugz7]

Good job and solid looking list. Did you miss Trickbind? I have to say Vision Charm looks good now that Abrupt Decay and Terminus are everywhere.

Not really, I would change a few things in the board and maybe 1 or 2 cards in the main but it was really good all day...def going to be playing 2 misdirection from now on tho.

[HaShugz7]

am I insane for thinking Porcelain Legionaire could be a possible sideboard card?

seems good vs nimble mongoose who's annoying as hell and the first strike is relevant in a lot of the creature decks...sure it can be bolted or swords but so can any other creature...just seems like mongoose is a problem if u can't get a dreadnought and they have the cheap removal for ur creatures.

[SupREME-10]

Congrats HaShugz7:

Thanks for sharing the list, Very Very solid IMHO; I would love to hear what you sided in/out vs the various opponents.

Also good call on Misdirection, I hav never used that card (in this deck) but I do like the potential.... Sweet.

I have seen a number of lists using Torper Orb but is it just me or does that guy take slots away from other more usefull card ideas such as the Vision Charm I see in HaShugz7 list.

[HaShugz7]

Congrats HaShugz7:

Thanks for sharing the list, Very Very solid IMHO; I would love to hear what you sided in/out vs the various opponents.

Also good call on Misdirection, I hav never used that card (in this deck) but I do like the potential.... Sweet.

I have seen a number of lists using Torper Orb but is it just me or does that guy take slots away from other more usefull card ideas such as the Vision Charm I see in HaShugz7 list.

Thx man, I've been so close before but finally came though this time...

My good friend scrum who top 8d new orleans and I always play the same list. Torpor Orb is great especially with esper around but we wanted to try out Vision Charm since it was blue and flips delvers and protected nought. I could see playing it in the future but right now with AD running around I think charm is slightly better. I also used it to fill up my yard to burn a guy out with lavamancer and in other tourney's I turned islands to mountains vs high tide.

I'm really thinking about playing 3 force and 2 misdirection going forward. I feel with daze's stifle's and early pressure were still fine against combo naturally but misdirection really impressed me all day. Most of the time it acted as a 5th force since were usually the ones on the aggression and u can use it to misdirect their force...but the real value is against all of the BUG list...misdirecting an AD or Vision can be game breaking...decks that it's weaker against it can obviously come out and I would def play the 4th force in the board

My sideboard strategy was really weird most of the day...I would side mostly on feel and depending on the play or the draw...I don't think I ever sided out standstill on the play.

Envelop was fine but I'd prob go down to 1 or 2 since it was prob overkill playing that much combo hate and I think it needs another creature vs the BUG decks

here's the list i'm testing right now...

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Grim

4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Bolt
3 FOW
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection
2 Ponder
1 Vision Charm

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Factory
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
2 Misty
2 Island

4 Submerge
3 REB
3 Forked Bolt
2 Porcelain Legionaire
2 Envelop
1 FOW

[Johanovich]

Hi guys,

I was thinking about making a stiflenought deck and I would like to go UB with it because of the power of confidant in the deck.
Maybe something along these lines:

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Torpor Orb

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
2 Vision Charm

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 ??

SB is still a very rough version so any help here is appreciated

I would like to fit standstill in there somewhere but I don't really know what to cut for it. Any hints on this?
Before anyone suggests going UR or BUG, this is a test for a UB version.

[Rood]

grats man on an impressive performance with the deck. I too feel like some form of Misdirections/Vision Charms are probably necessary now to fight the Decays floating around everywhere.

To the above poster regarding Standstill: Standstill is generally stronger then Ponder in this deck so probally starting there would be a good start.
Ub lists normally run a 3/3 split between SS and Bobs.

-2 Ponder
-1 Charm

+3 SS

[Teluin]

Here's my list guys.


Noughty Mother

Lands

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland

Total: 20

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage

Total: 15

Spells

4 Aether Vial
2 Torpor Orb
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Total: 25

Some of my choices...

Mother of Runes - 1-mana Planeswalker. She can protect creatures so we can use our counterspells defensively. Can also be used offensively to attack for the full 12. Heck, if their board is clear she can also be used to attack.

Aether Vial - almost all of the creatures cost 1 CMC so we can get them in fast and during opponent's EoT. Can also help if we just have 1 land.

Torpor Orb - somewhat self-explanatory but I chose these instead of Trickbind because there are a lot of EtB creatures in Legacy and these hurt them much more than they do us. Also good for when we don't have a Stifle in hand but got a Dreadnought.

I admit my land choices are because I don't own more Tundras or any Flooded Strands.

Finally...
I'm not normally a combo player but I like this deck because it doesn't JUST rely on the combo to win. I know most people play UR, and I considered splashing the third for Bolt but overall I like this build. This deck is mostly based on theory at this point though, but I plan on testing it out soon.

Thoughts?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

am I insane for thinking Porcelain Legionaire could be a possible sideboard card?

Quite possibly but there's only one way of finding out for sure. I have used Spellskite in the sideboard to stop early hits and protect Dreadnought.

[HaShugz7]

I actually think that right now is a good metagame for Dreadnought. There are a lot of fair decks right now which is causing a lot more people to play combo which we all love to play against. Misdirection is the stone cold nuts right now and standstill and factory do work vs the BUG decks. Really just working on some ideas to grind the games out more. I've actually thought of playing 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 4 Punishing Fire in the SB to grind out a lot of these Jund and BUG decks. Anyone have any other ideas?

[Megadeus]

Ruling question. If Dreadnought phases back in his ability doesnt trigger?

[kingsey]

Ruling question. If Dreadnought phases back in his ability doesnt trigger?

Correct. It does not trigger.

[coraz86]

I actually think that right now is a good metagame for Dreadnought. There are a lot of fair decks right now which is causing a lot more people to play combo which we all love to play against. Misdirection is the stone cold nuts right now and standstill and factory do work vs the BUG decks. Really just working on some ideas to grind the games out more. I've actually thought of playing 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 4 Punishing Fire in the SB to grind out a lot of these Jund and BUG decks. Anyone have any other ideas?

Eli Kassis ran DreadStill like a year ago with one md Cursed Scroll and one or two in the board, iirc. I love Scroll and think it has a place in the format--most of the creatures in the format have small asses and it doesn't burn resources to use like Lavamancer does. (I can't find his list atm, but he made the top eight at a Star City Open with it; I think it was Esper?)

[festeringGAB]

Here's my list guys.


Noughty Mother

Lands

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland

Total: 20

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage

Total: 15

Spells

4 Aether Vial
2 Torpor Orb
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Total: 25

Some of my choices...

Mother of Runes - 1-mana Planeswalker. She can protect creatures so we can use our counterspells defensively. Can also be used offensively to attack for the full 12. Heck, if their board is clear she can also be used to attack.

Aether Vial - almost all of the creatures cost 1 CMC so we can get them in fast and during opponent's EoT. Can also help if we just have 1 land.

Torpor Orb - somewhat self-explanatory but I chose these instead of Trickbind because there are a lot of EtB creatures in Legacy and these hurt them much more than they do us. Also good for when we don't have a Stifle in hand but got a Dreadnought.

I admit my land choices are because I don't own more Tundras or any Flooded Strands.

Finally...
I'm not normally a combo player but I like this deck because it doesn't JUST rely on the combo to win. I know most people play UR, and I considered splashing the third for Bolt but overall I like this build. This deck is mostly based on theory at this point though, but I plan on testing it out soon.

Thoughts?

I like your list,but...snapcaster + orb is not a good idea :/
Aether Vial + mishra + wasteland without standstill??
mmm...I think -3 snap + 3 stand is a good choice :)

[Nooner]

With the format slowing down Dreadnought seems like a great choice with 4 Stifle. Overall I feel a more tempo based version is probably better than a more controlling build. In the past Counterbalance has been paired with success although, with Abrupt Decay in the format, Counterbalance isn't so hot.

With Deathrite Shaman/Dark Confidant UB becomes another possibility. I think it's safe to say UR has found a relatively solid shell with different card selections for different metagames. With that being said, UB does not seem to have a solid base as what is optimal. The advantage of UB over UR I'd say would be a stronger combo/control matchup yet a weaker aggro matchup with less reach.

Here's a list of some of the many cards available to the deck when black is the second color.

Vendetta - A cheap kill spell although the life loss could be too detrimental.
Snuff Out - Similar to Vendetta but it's free and still can be casted late game.
Ghastly Demise - With the draw/counter magic/fetchlands, this becomes a great cheap removal spell when not in high numbers.
Dismember - Not quite free yet can kill turn 1, and black can mitigate more life loss. But since we are black there are many other options available.
Thoughtseize - an excellent catch all discard, although combined with Confidant it may become a liability.
Inquisition of Kozilek- A great discard spell for a tempo deck although not so synergistic with Spell Snare.
Dark Confidant - One of the best reasons to run black.
Deathrite Shaman - A possible inclusions as it increases strong turn 1 drops although, there's some issues. One of the best reasons to run black is Perish in the sideboard which is devastating to RUG( kills Tarmogoyf and Mongoose which is hard to deal with usually), Elves, Maverick and Jund. Unfortunately, Deathrite is green and it's inability to kill creatures is no substitute for Grim Lavamancer. He's essentially a Birds of Paradise with "B: +2/+0, play this ability only once each turn". Ramp for a tempo deck doesn't seem to fit very well.
Extirpate - Better than Surgical Extraction against certain decks.
Perish - One of the best reasons to run black as one of the sideboard options. Dodges Spell Snare which is played more than Spell Pierce atm)
Duress - An excellent proactive answer to combo/control without the life loss from Thoughtseize.
Massacre - A fantastic free spell against Maverick and random white decks.
Diabolic Edict - Another possible answer to Nimble Mongoose (although, Perish does it better) and Emrakul.
Liliana of the Veil - Gives you the dream of pairing Lily with Standstill. I'm not sure if she's great, mediocre of bad here. Could be play tested.
Go For the Throat - Just a reliable cheap kill spell.


With some of the options discussed, black has access to some great spells so Snapcaster Mage seems like a great addition. Especially after board vs certain decks flashing back Perish, Extirpate, Duress etc. Snapcaster is better in UB than UR I think due to more CA and Lightning Bolts being less effective at killing creatures late game (tarmogoyf, Jitte/batterskull equipped etc) and they usually would rather chuck it to the face.

Here's a starting build I think would work quite well.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Misdirecton
3 Standstill
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Smother
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

Sb:
3 Perish
1 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
3 Duress
1 Darkblast
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Envelop
1 Pithing Needle

Snuff Out as a one of is great since multiples tend to hurt, especially with Confidant. I really like Misdirection effects in this meta now as misdirecting a Thoughtseize/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay seems quite good. You can live the dream of misdirecting an Ancestral Vision. Not too mention it functions as the 5th Force of Will. I would like a second although, having 6 5cc with Confidant seems too much of a liability so i substituted Divert in its place. Snapcaster works quite well in this build and adds late game. He also allows more aggressive Stifle plays.

You might want a 4th standstill over the 4th confidant. Most of the deck is pretty self explanatory. I like the one miser Sensei since it works well with confidant. As far as the manabase; With three Standstill, 3 Mishra's Factory seems best and if I had 4, I'd up the number on the other. The number of Wastelands/factories etc is always your call and this is a rough build. As far as the sideboard goes its once again quite self explanatory and always changes.


This is really an attempt to explore the possibilities of running UB Dreadstill. Comments and thoughts welcome!

EDIT: Disfigure and Smother may be better choices over Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat since the first can kill turn 1 while the second hits black creatures and opposing Dreadnoughts.
EDIT: It seems I forgot the Stifles lol, so I updated the list.

[Vandalize]

With the format slowing down Dreadnought seems like a great choice with 4 Stifle. Overall I feel a more tempo based version is probably better than a more controlling build. In the past Counterbalance has been paired with success although, with Abrupt Decay in the format, Counterbalance isn't so hot.

With Deathrite Shaman/Dark Confidant UB becomes another possibility. I think it's safe to say UR has found a relatively solid shell with different card selections for different metagames. With that being said, UB does not seem to have a solid base as what is optimal. The advantage of UB over UR I'd say would be a stronger combo/control matchup yet a weaker aggro matchup with less reach.

Here's a list of some of the many cards available to the deck when black is the second color.

Vendetta - A cheap kill spell although the life loss could be too detrimental.
Snuff Out - Similar to Vendetta but it's free and still can be casted late game.
Ghastly Demise - With the draw/counter magic/fetchlands, this becomes a great cheap removal spell when not in high numbers.
Dismember - Not quite free yet can kill turn 1, and black can mitigate more life loss. But since we are black there are many other options available.
Thoughtseize - an excellent catch all discard, although combined with Confidant it may become a liability.
Inquisition of Kozilek- A great discard spell for a tempo deck although not so synergistic with Spell Snare.
Dark Confidant - One of the best reasons to run black.
Deathrite Shaman - A possible inclusions as it increases strong turn 1 drops although, there's some issues. One of the best reasons to run black is Perish in the sideboard which is devastating to RUG( kills Tarmogoyf and Mongoose which is hard to deal with usually), Elves, Maverick and Jund. Unfortunately, Deathrite is green and it's inability to kill creatures is no substitute for Grim Lavamancer. He's essentially a Birds of Paradise with "B: +2/+0, play this ability only once each turn". Ramp for a tempo deck doesn't seem to fit very well.
Extirpate - Better than Surgical Extraction against certain decks.
Perish - One of the best reasons to run black as one of the sideboard options. Dodges Spell Snare which is played more than Spell Pierce atm)
Duress - An excellent proactive answer to combo/control without the life loss from Thoughtseize.
Massacre - A fantastic free spell against Maverick and random white decks.
Diabolic Edict - Another possible answer to Nimble Mongoose (although, Perish does it better) and Emrakul.
Liliana of the Veil - Gives you the dream of pairing Lily with Standstill. I'm not sure if she's great, mediocre of bad here. Could be play tested.
Go For the Throat - Just a reliable cheap kill spell.


With some of the options discussed, black has access to some great spells so Snapcaster Mage seems like a great addition. Especially after board vs certain decks flashing back Perish, Extirpate, Duress etc. Snapcaster is better in UB than UR I think due to more CA and Lightning Bolts being less effective at killing creatures late game (tarmogoyf, Jitte/batterskull equipped etc) and they usually would rather chuck it to the face.

Here's a starting build I think would work quite well.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Misdirecton
1 Divert
3 Standstill
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Go for the Throat
1 Snuff Out
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

Sb:
3 Perish
1 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
3 Duress
1 Standstill
1 Go for the Throat
1 Pithing Needle

Snuff Out as a one of is great since multiples tend to hurt, especially with Confidant. I really like Misdirection effects in this meta now as misdirecting a Thoughtseize/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay seems quite good. You can live the dream of misdirecting an Ancestral Vision. Not too mention it functions as the 5th Force of Will. I would like a second although, having 6 5cc with Confidant seems too much of a liability so i substituted Divert in its place. Snapcaster works quite well in this build and adds late game. He also allows more aggressive Stifle plays.

You might want a 4th standstill over the 4th confidant. Most of the deck is pretty self explanatory. I like the one miser Sensei since it works well with confidant. As far as the manabase; With three Standstill, 3 Mishra's Factory seems best and if I had 4, I'd up the number on the other. The number of Wastelands/factories etc is always your call and this is a rough build. As far as the sideboard goes its once again quite self explanatory and always changes.


This is really an attempt to explore the possibilities of running UB Dreadstill. Comments and thoughts welcome!

EDIT: Disfigure and Smother may be better choices over Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat since the first can kill turn 1 while the second hits black creatures and opposing Dreadnoughts.

Smother is way better than Go for the Throat. You also want to be able to kill Bob somtimes. You have 5 5CMC spells (FoW, MisD) that flips to Bob for a fucking ton of damage. 4 Brainstorms and 1 Sensei's might not be enough card selection. I've killed myself plenty of times in the UB version.

[Nooner]

Smother is way better than Go for the Throat. You also want to be able to kill Bob somtimes. You have 5 5CMC spells (FoW, MisD) that flips to Bob for a fucking ton of damage. 4 Brainstorms and 1 Sensei's might not be enough card selection. I've killed myself plenty of times in the UB version.

You're right about Go for the Throat. Smother is probably the best removal spell for the deck since it kills pretty much all the important creatures minus Bloodbraid Elf. Disfigure is a great answer if any turn 1 needs to be killed.

As far as a ton of damage for Dark Confidant and the 5cc seems a bit dramatic. The overall CC of the deck is 1.25 and absolute worst case scenario where you draw and have neither Force of Will or Misdirection in hand and have no library manipulation, the chances of hitting them with Confidant is 10%.

[Megadeus]

For the UR version, is blood moon a good SB card? I understamd that we have man lands and wastes, but we can run with a few basics to accomodate it.

[Korvo]

What do you think of 2 Divert MB?

Think it could be pretty good to protect your Nought?!

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Grim

4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Bolt
3 FOW
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection
2 Divert
1 Vision Charm

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Factory
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
2 Misty
2 Island

[Vandalize]

Hooray! Small tournament report time. I've taken UR Dreadnought to my local stores, just because I own 95% of the cards in the deck (I was missing Torpor Orb and Vision Charm). But my buddy was kind enough to lend me the missing cards, and I went to a massive killing spree.

The list:

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Standstill
3 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Torpor Orb
1 Vision Charm
SB: 3 Rough/Tumble
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Force of Will

Round 1) Merfolks (2-0) !!!
G1: I keep a good grip on the play (Grim Lavamancer, Misty, Volcanic, Daze, Stifle, Brainstorm, Misdirection, Standstill). I start out with Grim Lavamancer, which meets a Force of Will. He drops AEther Vial, and passes. I brainstorm into Phyrexian Dreadnought and Lightning Bolt, putting back Misdirection and Standstill, play Misty Rainforest. He ticks Vial, plays Coralhelm Commander and passes. I draw Standstill, play Dreadnought + Stifle, he Dazes the stifle, I Daze back, resolves. He draws and scoops.

Sideboard: -2 Misdirection -2 Spell Pierce -1 Torpor Orb +3 Rough/Tumble +2 Pyroblast

G2: I keep an average hand with Delver (Island, Wasteland, Delver, Lightning Bolt, Standstill, Stifle, Stifle). He starts with Mutavault, go. I start with Delver, resolves. He plays Silvergill Adept showing a Lord of Atlantis, pass. My Delver flips revealing Pyroblast, and I beat for 3. He plays the Lord of Atlantis off his second Island, and beats for 3. I draw Scalding Tarn, fetch into Volcanic, Bolt the Lord, and play Standstill. Everything resolves, good. He draws, and forces my Standstill with Merrow Rejeerey, which I Force of Will after Standstill draw. He beats with Silvergill, and passes. I Waste his Mutavault, and hit again. He tries to play Master of the Pearl Trident, but I Pyroblast it. He tanks, draws and concede.

Round 2) Jund (2-1)
G1: I mulligan into a solid six (Misty, Tarn, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Grim Lavamancer, Vision Charm). He starts with Thoughtseize, taking my Grim Lavamancer. I play Misty, go. He plays Hymn to Tourach, I Brainstorm in response, and draw Misdirection, and promptly kill his hand (taking Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf). I play fetch, crack it, play Brainstorm into Delver and Wasteland, play Delver. He plays Grove of the Burnwillows and tap it to cast Tarmogoyf (misplay). I Waste his Grove, and Delver goes the distance.

Sideboard: -4 Daze -1 Torpor Orb +2 Divert +2 Mind Harness +1 Force of Will

G2: I can't remember much of this game, but he started with Deathrite Shaman into Liliana of the Veil, while my lone Grim Lavamancer meets Lightning Bolt. He chains Bloodbraif Elf and cascade into Pernicious Deed. Nice draw, bro.

Sideboard: -4 Force of Will +4 Daze

G3: I keep the nuts (Volcanic, Mishra's Factory, Delver of Secrets, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle, Brainstorm, Misdirection). I start with Delver, he starts with Deathrite Shaman. Delver flips with Lightning Bolt, I play Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle it, beat with Delver. He Bolts my Delver, resolves. He Abrupt Decay my Dreadnought, I Misdirect it to his Deathrite Shaman, he tanks. I draw Wasteland and destroy his Bayou, beat with Nought and Mishra. He draws and concedes (he could kill my Dreadnought, but was in Bolt range).

Round 3) T.E.S (2-0)
G1: I'm on the draw, and he begins with Chrome Mox (imprint Burning Wish), Rite of Flame, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. I Force the Ad Nauseam, and he concedes, lol.

Sideboard: -2 Misdirection -1 Torpor Orb -3 Grim Lavamancer +1 Force of Will +2 Tormod's Crypt +3 Rough/Tumble

G2: I keep a solid hand (Island, Mishra, Delver, Standstill, Spell Pierce, Daze, Tormod's Crypt. He starts with Duress, taking my Spell Pierce. I play Tormod's Crypt and Delver, pass. He plays Ponder, and miss his second land drop, pass. My Delver doesn't flip, and I play Mishra -> Standstill. He topdecks another land, pass. Finally my Delver flips with Stifle, hit with it, pass. He plays Brainstorm, I draw off Standstill, resolves. He tries to Duress, but I Daze it. I draw Misty Rainforest for the turn, hit with Mishra + Delver and pass (he's at 12). He plays Lion's Eye Diamond 2x, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor, breaking the LEDs, pick Ad Nauseam. His Ad Nauseam gives him a lot of good cards, and he stops at 2, but can't find a Duress or Silence for my Stifle, and Past in Flames wasn't an option because of Tormod's Crypt. He concedes.

Round 4) Goblins (2-0)
G1: I keep the best hand ever against Goblins (Volcanic Island, Scalding Tarn, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Vision Charm, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt). I'm on the play, and start with Grim. He plays Lackey. I play Phyrexian Dreadnought and Charm it. He draws and concedes.

Sideboard: -1 Force of Will -2 Spell Pierce -2 Misdirection +3 Rough/Tumble +2 Mind Harness

G2: I mulligan twice into an average 5 (Misty, Island, Rough/Tumble, Delver, Stifle). He starts with Vial, I draw Brainstorm, and play Delver off Island. He ticks Vial, play Cavern of Souls and play Goblin Piledriver. I Brainstorm in my upkeep to flip Delver, revealing another Brainstorm. I play Misty Rainforest, beat with Delver, pass. He EOT taps AEther Vial, I decide not to stifle it and he brings Lackey (crap). He ticks Vial, plays another land, cast Goblin Warchief, tap Vial to cast another Piledriver, and hits with everything for 17, and Lackey brings in Goblin Chieftain (misplay, he should have played the Chieftain first). Lucky me, I play Rough/Tumble, and wipe his board, beat with Delver. He plays another Lackey, pass. I brainstorm into Phyrexian Dreadnought and cast and Stifle it. He Vials in Matron and searches for TukTuk Scrapper, but can't cast it with only 3 lands, and concedes.

Yay! 4-0 in very good day. I end up 1st from 15 players, getting 150$ in store credit, and buying my last two foil Abrupt Decays.

Suggestions and criticism are always welcome. Thanks for the reading.

[Asthereal]

That's a lot of grave hate in your board. Not meeting Dredge or Reanimator makes that part of the board rather weak. I'd recommend cutting one of two. An additional Spell Pierce or Red Elemental Blast is always nice to have.

[Vandalize]

That's a lot of grave hate in your board. Not meeting Dredge or Reanimator makes that part of the board rather weak. I'd recommend cutting one of two. An additional Spell Pierce or Red Elemental Blast is always nice to have.

There were two Dredge and one 43 Lands in the tournament, as well. My pairings just dodged them. Still, I think I'll -1 Crypt +1 Pyroblast. I heard Sneak and Show is pretty good now.

[Megadeus]

That Jund game. Misdirecting Hymn. What a blowout. I just love all of the tricky spells this deck plays like Stifle. I know we need stifle for our noughts, but if I dont have a nought in hand, is it okay to stifle fetchland triggers and keep them off of their mana?

[lordofthepit]

I'm not very familiar with this deck, but how can you feel comfortable running Dreadnought when Abrupt Decay is such an ubiquitous card?

[Megadeus]

I'm not very familiar with this deck, but how can you feel comfortable running Dreadnought when Abrupt Decay is such an ubiquitous card?

Misdirection, Vision CHarm. Some run Divert as well. Plus its not like you NEED Nought to win.

[lordofthepit]

Misdirection, Vision CHarm. Some run Divert as well. Plus its not like you NEED Nought to win.

I'm looking for a deck that will smash combo without losing to fair decks like Jund. I love the tempo elements of this deck, including Misdirection, but banking on having Misdirection and/or Divert is a bit too risky for my liking. Vision Charm seems great too, but it's also your 5th combo piece.

Indeed, you can rely on your other win conditions to beat most decks, but they're super fragile against a deck with Punishing Fires. Do you have any advice for the Jund matchup, or is this a slight negative (unless you can mess up their manabase and/or misdirect a Hymn)?

[Artlee]

Im not sure if I am posting in the ringht thread, but I noticed a player on modo who has been doing well with this :


Creature [4]
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instant [25]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Artifact [2]
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantment [3]
3 Standstill

Land [25]
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Planeswalker [1]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Volcanic Fallout
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Relic of Progenitus

I have been playing it some time and it seems very strong. My main problems are Maverick and Nic Fit, as they can land creatures too big for EE and Pyroclasm, but the as long as I can keep them from generating tons of mana I tend to be able to grind them out by having more cards from standstill.

[GexxX]

Im not sure if I am posting in the ringht thread, but I noticed a player on modo who has been doing well with this :


Creature [4]
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instant [25]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Artifact [2]
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantment [3]
3 Standstill

Land [25]
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Planeswalker [1]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Volcanic Fallout
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Relic of Progenitus

I have been playing it some time and it seems very strong. My main problems are Maverick and Nic Fit, as they can land creatures too big for EE and Pyroclasm, but the as long as I can keep them from generating tons of mana I tend to be able to grind them out by having more cards from standstill.

Well it doesn't play noughts so it's basically landstill, isn't it? Used to be UW, but yet it's the same gameplan I guess. Can I suggest you play Firespout instead of the Pyrocalsms? It's a mana more expensive, but if it solves your problems, why not? Other than that I can only think of Dismember to kill things efficiently, although it's single target. I'm certain you've thought about Day of Judgement or Wrath of God already so won't suggest them. Then again there aren't many cards you play in red. Why is it you play the whole four volcs and not splash into a third color to help fighting NicFit and/or Maverick? It's not like your manabase is exactly stable, right? Just my two cents ;)

[whienot]

Non-Dreadstill post

This is the thread you're looking for. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25439-UR-StifleStill)

[Artlee]

This is the thread you're looking for. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25439-UR-StifleStill)

It sure is. Thank you.

[Megadeus]

I'm looking for a deck that will smash combo without losing to fair decks like Jund. I love the tempo elements of this deck, including Misdirection, but banking on having Misdirection and/or Divert is a bit too risky for my liking. Vision Charm seems great too, but it's also your 5th combo piece.

Indeed, you can rely on your other win conditions to beat most decks, but they're super fragile against a deck with Punishing Fires. Do you have any advice for the Jund matchup, or is this a slight negative (unless you can mess up their manabase and/or misdirect a Hymn)?

I havent played the MU yet, but you do have a decent resource denial gameplan. They arw a very color intensove deck so it is quote possible to keep them off of their colors

[Vandalize]

Jund isn't that bad. Grim Lavamancer kills everything except Tarmogoyf, you can Bolt their Deathrite Shamana and Stifle + Waste their lands. Daze is also very good in this deck (mainly against Liliana). If Dreadnought hits once is enough, you can finish them with Lavamancer/Bolts or Mishra's Factory.

However, the ideal draw against this deck is: turn 1 Delver, followed by turn 2 Mishra + Standstill. They'll have to break the symmetry really fast, and even Hymn doesn't get you far behind in CA. Misdirection Hymn and Abrupt Decay when you can, and if you can save Vision Charm to protect Dreadnought, you're in a good shape.

Also, I'm playing 1 Torpor Orb and 1 Vision Charm as Stifle #5 and #6, so we can use our Stifles aggresively in the early game. Rough/Tumble also goes a long way wiping their board (they usually play 4 Bob, 4 DRS, 4 Goyf, 3 BBE). More on, you can save your FoWs to scary things (like Liliana, Pernicious Deed), we don't really care if Bob comes online, as this deck usually powers out early enough for Bob to matter.

By the way, this is my new list:

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Standstill
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Torpor Orb
1 Vision Charm
SB: 3 Rough/Tumble
SB: 3 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Divert (or Echoing Truth)
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Force of Will

I'm playing Mind Harness over Submerge, because we run very few threats, and stealing a Tarmogoyf for a couple turns is really good, especially if you're opponent is willing block. If your meta is full of Goblins, Elves and Stoneblade, you can probably fit another Torpor Orb in the sideboard, since they pretty much depend on Enter the Battlefield effects.

Divert comes and goes from my board, depending on the quantity of BGx decks I'm expecting. Otherwise, I just play Echoing Truth, which is a nice catch all.

[Megadeus]

The Divert's seem good. Though it seems easy for a BUG deck running DRS to be able to pay for it...

[Nooner]

The Divert's seem good. Though it seems easy for a BUG deck running DRS to be able to pay for it...

That same logic can be applied to Daze, Spell Pierce etc.

Divert is very underrated. It's essentially a 2 for 1 for one blue, a Dispel for counters and even better vs Hymn. People definitely try to play around it once they get Diverted once so, so running only 1 or 2 will always make them play around it even if you don't have it.
Misdirection effects are great right now, and Divert offers better CA than misdirection although, it is more narrow. Run them both!

Just find what works for you in play testing and roll with it.

[.dk]

That same logic can be applied to Daze, Spell Pierce etc.

Divert is very underrated. It's essentially a 2 for 1 for one blue, a Dispel for counters and even better vs Hymn. People definitely try to play around it once they get Diverted once so, so running only 1 or 2 will always make them play around it even if you don't have it.
Misdirection effects are great right now, and Divert offers better CA than misdirection although, it is more narrow. Run them both!

Just find what works for you in play testing and roll with it.

Haven't actually played this deck, but in those decks where I wanted a redirect effect (combo usually), Divert has usually been pretty insane. It's a better spell pierce when you want it (seize, Hymn, decay, etc). I can't really speak to it's uses in this deck with intelligence or experience, but it seems at first glance that it would be better maindeck than Misdirection due to card disadvantage. You're already 2-for-1-ing yourself with Dreadnought and Force (and yes Standstill can make up for some of that), so having a good answer that doesn't require a bunch of cards seems pretty decent to me anyway.

But of course I could be totally wrong since I've never played Dreadstill. :)

[HaShugz7]

The reason I prefer misdirection over divert is because we tap out so much in this deck that you want all your counter magic to be free...I don't mind pitching 2 cards to save my dreadnought since 1 attack is usually good enough...if you have to wait to hold up mana for a divert it slows you down and gives them more opp to draw answers.

[Vandalize]

Haven't actually played this deck, but in those decks where I wanted a redirect effect (combo usually), Divert has usually been pretty insane. It's a better spell pierce when you want it (seize, Hymn, decay, etc). I can't really speak to it's uses in this deck with intelligence or experience, but it seems at first glance that it would be better maindeck than Misdirection due to card disadvantage. You're already 2-for-1-ing yourself with Dreadnought and Force (and yes Standstill can make up for some of that), so having a good answer that doesn't require a bunch of cards seems pretty decent to me anyway.

But of course I could be totally wrong since I've never played Dreadstill. :)

Why would you want a redirect effect against combo? Redirect one Tendrils copy? If you're paired against any storm based combo, Misdirection is the worst card you can have in the maindeck (it has some utilities against Sneak and Show). It's usually the first card to come out of the mainboard, giving space for Pyroblast/Spell Pierce, which is a lot better.

[Korvo]

@Vandalize: dont you miss Trickbind? I mean against any counter deck its much more safer than vision charm?!

[kiblast]

@Vandalize: dont you miss Trickbind? I mean against any counter deck its much more safer than vision charm?!

Visio Charm is not here only to dodge Nought's etb trigger but also to dodge removal specially Decay.

[whienot]

Play Vision Charm against High Tide or Miracles. It's fun, I swear.

[.dk]

Why would you want a redirect effect against combo? Redirect one Tendrils copy? If you're paired against any storm based combo, Misdirection is the worst card you can have in the maindeck (it has some utilities against Sneak and Show). It's usually the first card to come out of the mainboard, giving space for Pyroblast/Spell Pierce, which is a lot better.

I think I typed that wrong. I meant this as in, "i'm playing combo, therefore I might want a redirect effect," not "i'm playing against combo, therefore I might want a redirect effect."

Agreed - they are terrible vs. combo. In combo, however, they can be pretty great defensive measures against discard.

[Megadeus]

Question. Why spell pierce over snare? Ive seen lists with pierce and some with snare. Snare seems really good right now. Why play pierce?

[Vandalize]

Question. Why spell pierce over snare? Ive seen lists with pierce and some with snare. Snare seems really good right now. Why play pierce?

Well, I prefer Spell Pierce because it protects an early Dreadnought better (and is awesome against Liliana too). Spell Snare counters Stoneforge Mystic/Hymn to Tourach/Counterbalance, and that's pretty much it. I don't care much about Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants.

That's me, tho. I always feel like Dreadnought is going to die before swinging, and Spell Pierce makes me feel more confortable.

[Jayman]

Well, I prefer Spell Pierce because it protects an early Dreadnought better (and is awesome against Liliana too). Spell Snare counters Stoneforge Mystic/Hymn to Tourach/Counterbalance, and that's pretty much it. I don't care much about Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants.

That's me, tho. I always feel like Dreadnought is going to die before swinging, and Spell Pierce makes me feel more confortable.

I think your assessment of the cards is correct. Pierce is just much more versatile. Snare is only good against midrange decks and even yet its still much more important to make sure Dreadnought gets to swing and also stop combo/planeswalkers from going off.

[Rood]

Really happy to see all of the adaptions to the lists to combat all these rediculous Jund decks and whatnot. Divert should be in most everyone, if not everyone's SBs at least as a 2-of. I think I would still run Snare right now over Pierce to deal with the amount of Dark Confidants.

[Megadeus]

Im thinking of doing a 2-1 split, or maybe go to 3 Daze and a 2-2 split of pierce and Daze. My current meta is full of Junk and Tribal so Pierce is very meh against them...

[Megadeus]

Stiflenought on Cam! Winning!!!!

[kiblast]

Stiflenought on Cam! Winning!!!!

Edit: On SCG Live.

Seems like the UB Russian Tempo version right?

Edit: Yep it is. Seems like he's playing a fairly stock list with Disfigure to fight Deathrites. He just missed a Delver flip btw.

[Megadeus]

Was he actually missing the trigger? I did see that he never got to flip his delvers at all. And I heard something about him missing a trigger of some kind. Still. Tombstaker version seems good right now. Wonder if his list played misdirection at all?

[Korvo]

Sorry, but do you have a link?! I cant find it! THX!

[kiblast]

Was he actually missing the trigger? I did see that he never got to flip his delvers at all. And I heard something about him missing a trigger of some kind. Still. Tombstaker version seems good right now. Wonder if his list played misdirection at all?

When he had 2 Delvers on the table, he checks the top card, then fetches, then doesn't check the fresh new topdeck for the other Delver. And on cam you can clearly see it was a Stifle.

[Megadeus]

When he had 2 Delvers on the table, he checks the top card, then fetches, then doesn't check the fresh new topdeck for the other Delver. And on cam you can clearly see it was a Stifle.

Thats a bit rough. Luckily RUG delver cant beat a 5/5 flier lol. He did make a few mis plays that I saw, but its gotta be nerve wracking to be on cam. Im a fan of the UR version just because I like the color combo, but the UB one does seem well positioned right now. I didnt see him playing Standstill.

[kiblast]

Thats a bit rough. Luckily RUG delver cant beat a 5/5 flier lol. He did make a few mis plays that I saw, but its gotta be nerve wracking to be on cam. Im a fan of the UR version just because I like the color combo, but the UB one does seem well positioned right now. I didnt see him playing Standstill.

Yeah for sure playing on cam after 7 turns of swiss is hard.
I love the overall appearance and playstyle of the UR version but UB seems just better as it proposes better threats and disruption. Ub doesn't run any Standstill or any other form of card advantage (unless you cut Stalkers for Bob, which I would not do right now as you loose an excellent win con), but plays 4 Bs and 3-4 Ponders for card quality and 1-2 Torpor Orb to increase virtual CA vs. Stoneblade decks and Goblins, and lets you play any number of Dreadnoughts without Stifle available.

Personally I'm a huge fan of Dreadnought itself and any deck that plays it. :)
I used to run a URg Singleton Dreadnought tempo deck a couple of years ago when Misstep was legal and that was probably my favourite Dreadnought list ever (here (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6799&iddeck=49350) )

[Megadeus]

<3 Trinket Mage Package. Seems bad in a format where every deck has a free counter for 1 drops lol

[Seiklos]

Hello, a have browsed these forums for a long time without ever posting, but thought that this discussion was a good place to start. I was the one with the UB Stiflenought list in SCG Cinn and I have to say it played awesome all day (especially disfigure). I haven't had a chance to see commentary yet so I don't know if they reported any other "misplays" besides not checking for the second delver trigger, but yeah I was nervous and that sucked.

If anyone would like a full report or anything like that I would be happy to give it. Also, if anyone has any suggestions for the deck or anything like that, that would be cool to.

EDIT: Also, if you want to see my deck list, it is labelled as BUG Delver on SCG.

[Nooner]

Hello, a have browsed these forums for a long time without ever posting, but thought that this discussion was a good place to start. I was the one with the UB Stiflenought list in SCG Cinn and I have to say it played awesome all day (especially disfigure). I haven't had a chance to see commentary yet so I don't know if they reported any other "misplays" besides not checking for the second delver trigger, but yeah I was nervous and that sucked.

If anyone would like a full report or anything like that I would be happy to give it. Also, if anyone has any suggestions for the deck or anything like that, that would be cool to.

EDIT: Also, if you want to see my deck list, it is labelled as BUG Delver on SCG.

Great job and misplays happen all the time, don't sweat it. The cool thing about the commentary and rewatching things is you can get a more broad sense of what was the right play and how to approach things.
I'm a big fan of the UB version since it has a better combo matchup by attacking both angles with proactive and reactive disruption.

I'd say Smother and Disfigure are the best removal spells for the black shell.
What did you like most about the deck and what would you change? It seemed you had a hard time flipping a delver so maybe more instants/sorceries for just bad luck?

[Seiklos]

Well I had 28 instants and sorceries and so I do believe that the scene on camera was bad luck (and the one failed trigger). I don't know if you could see what I was seeing each time it failed, but it was usually another creature which I wanted because I needed chump blockers. Also, I have a history of delvers not flipping on camera as I got beat out of top 8 in the standard portion of SCG Madison last year when 3 delvers just refused to flip in a timely fashion.

What I like most about the deck in generally is that it attacks from a whole number a different angles and simply eats other blue decks. Decks like Show and Tell are a joke for the most part because you have a lot of disruption and usually an insane clock in the form of a turn 2 dreadnought. What was seen on camera was the third RUG I defeated in a row, pretty much always due to tombstalker. It is true that the deck is soft to abrupt decay decks and my first loss of the day was to Jund. The disfigures really help in creature matchups, which are usually pretty tough for the UB version. I beat Death and Taxes early on and my only other loss besides jund that day was to the Maverick that got into the top 8.

May favorite part of the UB version is that every starting hand is like a puzzle you have to solve. Sometimes you are on the straight dreadnought plan, sometimes Delver and mana denial, and sometimes grind until tombstalker. The best part is that because of the different possible plans and the roguish nature of the deck, your opponent frequently has a hard time keeping the appropriate hand for what you are going to be doing. Like I said earlier, stuff like Jund is pretty miserable, but for metas full of RUG and combo, like it is here in the Midwest, its a pretty fun deck to register.

I will try to work on a report for the whole tourney so as to illustrate what went right and what went wrong.

[Megadeus]

I would love to see a tourney report. Watching Tombstalker wreck face was sweet. Disappointed in not quite making top 8 though :/ One question, why the split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize?

[Seiklos]

Watching Tombstalker dominate is awesome indeed. Reasons for the split: There is a long version involving the origins of my choice to play the deck and its original conception (which was, believe it or not, before the Russian Champs), however, the shorter version is that a number of the games can be rather grindy and after a lot of experimentation I found the life loss to be pretty relevant. I would say that if one was on a more all-in dreadnought plan, more thoughtsiezes would be used because of the ability to take force of will. For my personal play style I prefer a higher inquisition count simply because I tend to rely on Daze for taking care of >3cmc spells. I also rely on my creatures doing a lot of work and so most of what I aim to take with discard is actually removal or aggressive creatures like tarmogoyf. In my experience early aggression is the most threatening thing your opponent can be doing and because of the limited amount of quality removal I think that preserving your life total can really matter, mostly because there is no way to get it back.

What are your thoughts on the discard suite? Do you think 3 Thoughtsieze and 1 Inq is better? 2 and 2? I am definitely interested in discussing it because I have found myself pleased and disappointed with all sorts of configurations.

[Nooner]

Watching Tombstalker dominate is awesome indeed. Reasons for the split: There is a long version involving the origins of my choice to play the deck and its original conception (which was, believe it or not, before the Russian Champs), however, the shorter version is that a number of the games can be rather grindy and after a lot of experimentation I found the life loss to be pretty relevant. I would say that if one was on a more all-in dreadnought plan, more thoughtsiezes would be used because of the ability to take force of will. For my personal play style I prefer a higher inquisition count simply because I tend to rely on Daze for taking care of >3cmc spells. I also rely on my creatures doing a lot of work and so most of what I aim to take with discard is actually removal or aggressive creatures like tarmogoyf. In my experience early aggression is the most threatening thing your opponent can be doing and because of the limited amount of quality removal I think that preserving your life total can really matter, mostly because there is no way to get it back.

What are your thoughts on the discard suite? Do you think 3 Thoughtsieze and 1 Inq is better? 2 and 2? I am definitely interested in discussing it because I have found myself pleased and disappointed with all sorts of configurations.


I think no matter what configuration you use, the results largely depend on the matchup a you face. Against aggro decks Thoughtseize would appear mediocre while inquisition would seem a lot better and vice versa.
As for Jund, Abrupt Decay is a problem since its uncounterable but, the best solution to that are misdirection effects. Since the deck is full of card advantage, (Hymn, Confidant, Bloodbrain Elf, Punishing Fire etc) Divert is usually always a 2 for 1. While Misdirection is free, it costs 2 cards and Jund wants to be a grindy deck. Being able to Divert an Abrupt Decay to a Deathrite, Confidant or using Divert on Hymn is usually game.

[mackaber]

@Seiklos: Really like the list. Feels a lot like Team America just with a smoother manabase. Is there anything you'd want to change based on your experiences? Also I'd be interested in your thoughts on sideboarding. If Jund is such a tough MU would a few more diverts be in order?

[Seiklos]

Sorry, I didn't get this finished yesterday, had a lot of work to do.

First of all, I just wanted to say that going into this, I didn't expect to do well because I thought Abrupt Decay was going to be just everywhere. I guess other players maybe thought the same thing and combo showed up in force along with a bunch of RUG, so it didn't go as bad as I had feared.

Round 1: Charbelcher
I lose the roll and mull to a pretty bad 5 by objective standards. He Gitaxian Probes me 3 times on his first turn and I just assume I am dead, fortunately that's not the case and he ends by playing two LEDs! I have a stifle in my hand but decide to Inquisition anyways because he has played any other mana sources to get going. I see charbelcher and take pyretic ritual and pass. He cant go off next turn either so I proceed to jsut hold up stifle until I can finally cast Tombstalker and end the game. Game 2 I have to mull to 6 and its another hand with no counterspells! However, it does contain stifle and V clique and game 2 goes kind of like game 1. 2-0

Round 2: Jund
I find out that I got paired down into the draw bracket and that's kind of frustrating, but anyways, he has a hand full of removal but I am able to put up a good fight by drawing a bunch of Wastelands and Disfiguring his DRS to keep him off mana. Eventually, he lands a Bob and then another after killing off my Delver with Punishing Fire, I get buried under CA and the Bobs beat me down. I proceed to board in all the stuff I came with for this matchup: Spellsnares and Misdirections. Game 2 my hand dictates that Tombstalker ought to be my plan and when I cast Inq I see Lighting Bolt, Decay, and Liliana. I take Liliana and eventually cast stalker, but by that time he had drawn another and I didn't have a stifle for her -2. It's a tough matchup for a ton of reasons and I'll explain some of my ideas later. 0-2

Round 3: Show and Tell
Game 1 he doesn't do much early and I resolve a T2 Dreadnought. Then he show and tells and I can't stop it. I put in V Clique in case its Omni but its Emrakul himself and I just assume I'm dead. Fortunately, I have a stifle in my hand and stifle the annihilator trigger when he attacks, I take the 15 and go to 4. I attack him with both the Nought and the Clique and take him to 5. I did so because I have a stalker in hand and want to be able to hit for lethal if he decides to block. I knew I wouldn't get that chance though if I had to sac all my permanents so I brainstorm looking for a stifle, instead I see two Delvers. I have three lands untapped at this point so I cast a delver and cast the stalker, pass. He attacks and I sac all four lands, Clique and Delver and block with stalker, and then attack with dreadnought, my last permanent, for the win. Game 2 he snap keeps a hand but I'm not overly concerned: my hand is Clique, Inq, and tons of countermagic. T1 I Inq and discard show and tell, leaving him with Emrakul, Griselbrand, and lands. Eventually I cast Clique and kill him with it while Dazing the Sneak Attack he ends up drawing. It's always fun to survive two back to back Emrakul attacks :) 2-0

Round 4: Death and Taxes
Game 1 was really back and forth as I disfigure a Mother of Runes and then the Thalia that follows. He obviously doesn't know what I am playing so he casts Revoker and sets it to Liliana and I put on a show writing it down etc. In the end I have a Delver facing down a Serra Avenger and I know he has Batterskull in his hand. Fortunately, I am able to stifle the germ trigger and next turn draw Tombstalker. He is at 2 so I attack with Delver, forcing him to block. He doesn't draw StP and I win at 1 life. He never saw Dreadnought or anything so I keep them in and my opening hand is Nought, Stifle, Force, Brainstorm, and lands. T2 I land the nought and Force his Swords. He doesn't draw another in the next two turns and dies. After the game he lamented not knowing what I was playing because he had sided out Flickerwisp! He was a great opponent and ended up 6-3, his final loss being to Adam Prosak playing for to 16. 2-0

Round 5: RUG
I keep a land light hand full of Disfigures and counterspells. I blast his first delver but am wastelanded in the process. We sit for a while, me drawing no lands and he drawing no threats. Eventually I am able to resolve an Inq and take his Goyf and then am able to Disfigure two more delvers. I finally resolve Tombstalker and that seals the deal. I thought it was a fun game (because I like the grindy ones), but he did not and was convinced a nimble mongoose would have won it for him. Game 2 I, again, don't side out any Noughts because he never saw them. T1 he plays a delver and on my turn I disfigure it hoping to draw out counter magic. T2 I cast ponder or brainstorm or something and find the pieces to assemble Dreadnought. I pass and he plays another delver and a mongoose. T3 I proceed to cast some form of discard, see that the coast is clear, and cast the Nought. I looks despairingly and then proceeds to reveal Force with his delver trigger, I respond by submerging the Delver and he scoops. 2-0

Round 6: RUG
Game 1 I get buried under threats despite disfiguring his first Delver. I debate scooping so as not to reveal Dreadnought but I play it anyways to put him on defense. I have a second one and if I draw stifle it was very reasonable that I could have won with an alpha strike. Unfortunately, he draws like 2 goyfs in a row and I die. Game 2 I play a delver and so does he. On my turn 2 I disfigure it and he Forces the disfig! I take that to mean his hand is threat light and daze the force. I then proceed to Wasteland his Volcanic. He fails to draw another land for a while and when he does its another Volcanic and I daze his bolt. I play a Tombstalker and he scoops. Game 3 plays out surprisingly similar with me destroying his lands after he plays his initial delver. I eventually cast stalker to stem the bleeding and start racing. Eventually I cast Clique which tips the balance and I win. 2-1

Round 7: RUG(again!) against Ben under the camera.
Game 1 is straight forward as I strip his hand and then cast an unanswerable Dreadnought (with Vision Charm!) with FoW backup, and despite Glenn Jones thinking it was a race, not even a resolved Goyf would have saved him. Game 2 was a bit more grindy and there was a mistake or two but I really want to clear up some of the things Mr. Jones thought were errors but were absolutely not. The first is playing Brainstorm into Spell Pierce. Anyone who has played Tombstalker against RUG knows that he is what defines the matchup. He simply must resolve or you die. My entire plan, therefore, was getting all the countermagic out of his hand so as to resolve the stalker. This is also the reason I didn't cast Submerge, I needed it to pitch to FoW. Anyways, Tombstalker resolves and the board stands still. I proceed to keep saying Delvers on my Delver trigger but draw them instead of shuffling because either they end up chumps (like they did) or they flip and I go on offense. At one point I have two in play and crack a fetch in response to the first trigger, I fail to resolve the second trigger due to nerves and being so focused on casting my second stalker. Mr. Jones also criticizes casting Clique on Ben's turn into a possible counterspell or something like that. Again, all I am trying to do is resolve that second stalker, if Clique eats a FoW so be it, if not I either get to cycle the FoW or cycle a threat. In the end I am basically playing around Fire//Ice or Forked Bolt or something like that and wanted to be able to block and eat goyf if I had to, and the outcome would have been the same regardless, either attack with both stalkers the first time and he chumps or do it the second time and he chumps. In any case, he has no Fire//Ice nor Dismember so Tombstalker carries the field! 2-0

Round 8: Evan Wagstaff w/ Maverick
Initially I am paired against the High Tide player who went to the finals, but due to a computer mistake we are re-paired and I end up against Maverick. Its another tough matchup and I lost the roll. I am forced to Disfigure his Mom, but I fail to draw threats or answers at the rate he does. Eventually, I am killed by a Mindcensor with a bunch of exalted triggers. He doesn't see Dreadnought and so I keep them in because I have so far appeared to be a control deck. Later I find out he did indeed board out 1 or 2 pridemages, but unfortunately I never see the Nought. I cast a Delver which gets so close, but eventually a Mindcensor is resolved which stops my attack and a KotR is resolved which destroys my mana. I almost pull it out because of the basics in the deck, but his resolved Mom pushes the 11/11 Knight through for the win. After the match I showed him the Noughts and he was quite surprised and had no idea there was anything like that going on in the background. I knew the matchup was tough and have lost to it before so I wasn't overly disappointed. 0-2

Round 9: High Tide
Not much to say really. Game 1 I killed him with a quick Dreadnought. Game 2 he does a bunch of High Tide stuff and I end up dead. Game 3 we end up going to time, but I have immense pressure with a flipped Delver and a Tombstalker. He tries to go off at some point but fails to draw the cantrips to keep going. 2-1

So there it is, that's how my day went. Going into it I had debated Standstill over Ponder but delver is important and I like to be able to shuffle, even though they didn't flip under the camera (it's a curse). Overall, I think the maindeck is pretty tuned, but the board is a lot harder to figure out. As you can see from the report it cuts right through other blue decks. Generally in one of three ways: tons of disruption for combo type stuff, the ability to grind games out and then land Tombstalker as a massive trump to decks like RUG, and Dreadnought for the occasional free win, but also it gives you a really fast clock against other combo decks.

Side notes: I can't emphasize how awesome disfigure was. On Sunday I killed all of the following: Delvers, Deathrites, Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mindcensor, and Scavenging Ooze. Previously, I debated splashing red for Lightning Bolt, but having basics is really sweet and is often times the difference between playing and not playing. Decks like Jund are a problem and I will post my thoughts on it later today, but for now, back to work!

EDIT: fixing typos, I'm sure there are tons

[mackaber]

Nice report. Thanks for the writup. Concerning the Jund MU, do you think it could be helped by running Sinkholes? They're the best strategy Team America can muster and together with Stifle might be able to mana hose them.

[Seiklos]

It's funny you mention that because I did also think of sinkholes and in my one game against Jund I noticed that their manabase was the easiest thing to attack. I never even thought of Divert but its probably just straight up better than misdirection. Misdirection I suppose is more for straight combo decks, but against Jund we don't want to have to pay with two cards too often, I sided out both my Dazes and my FoWs.

One thought I had was bringing in Bitterblossom and taking out Noughts in that matchup. When I first played this deck to a 17th place finish in Indianapolis last summer/fall, it had two maindeck bitterblossoms because miracles were big at the time. Its just a thought but some number in the board could be helpful as Jund's only way of dealing with him is Liliana and Faerie tokens could help fight it. I realize BB dies to decay but we gotta do something. In a similar vein I had also considered Jitte for the board because, but its pretty hard to cast an equip at once, not to mention if your opponent has artifact hate they most likely brought it in if they saw a Nought. Other ways of dealing with creature decks could include stuff like Massacre and Damnation as well.

I recall at one open someone was playing a UB deck that was labelled as stiflenought though it had only one nought in it (ironically so did this deck the first time I played it). I saw he had a Desecration Demon or two in his main or board and I thought that was pretty sweet tech for the decay decks. Idk how much we would want that because we play stalker, which is pretty much just better for us and I don't think he was playing it.

I did once try to splash white for lingering souls and Jitte, but I prefer the two color manabase. Has anyone else experimented with BB or am I crazy?

[Megadeus]

BB seems alright (havent tested) but it is a tad grindy, and like you said it still dies to Abrupt Decay. I think Divert or something is probably a better answer. Plus your Tombstalkers are already pretty sick vs them.

[Rood]

The black tempo version with Tombstalkers used to be formally known as Dreadstalker back in the day...but yeah it's pretty good. I was working on a UB Tempo variant feat bobs, smothers, and such. It was working really well for me in testing. Since you dont get access to bolts you run disfigure's in the board.

[mackaber]

The biggest weakness of Jund appears to be it's manabase, especially if you can consistently remove their deathrites and more so if they run grove of burnwillows. By running basics they mitigate the possibility of tempo loss through Wasteland early in the game but if they have fetched up 2 basics and you sink one and waste/Stifle another land they are often unable to cast a large part of their hand and especially those spells that matter most (Lillian and decay).

A possible SB plan could be +4 Sinkholes +3 Submerge +1 Spell Snare - force and dazes, although I still like daze on the play.

Also I think it's either Divert or Sinkholes, both won't work together too well. Divert is a very high variance card. Some games you leave blue up and they go hymn or thoughtseize which is often GG, othertimes the'll go deathrire into goyf or llilian and you're boned. Sinkholes on the other hand are way better on the play and don't synergize too well with Stifle.

I had been thinking about bitterblossom as well and I really liked the idea. I feel it would work well in a game plan where you are bringing in more removal and counters and set yourself up to be the control deck with Stalker and BB being your trump cards. However consider that this strategy would be soft to the Punishing fire versions of Jund.

[KidA]

@Seiklos

Decklist?

[Megadeus]

@Seiklos

Decklist?

It should be up on SCG in the top 16

[Seiklos]

I am going to test the sinkhole plan for sure in the coming weeks. There is another Open near here in March so I will be able to test out any changes. Right now I kind of like sinkhole over divert because sinkhole could be brought in for other matches, like Stoneblade. The other thing about divert is that it doesn't always solve the Abrupt Decay problem because there isn't always something else to target.

I do agree that Tombstalker is pretty good against Jund, but only if you have a way of dealing with Liliana. Maybe stifle is enough? Maybe pressuring their manabase while keeping in some number of Dazes in is enough? I would suggest Pithing Needle because it has proven so useful against Stoneblade in the past, like Kira, but it dies to Decay (also like Kira). It was for the decay decks that I made the last minute decision to add Tar Pit to the deck, but that was more for BUG control. Truth be told it's a rough matchup no matter what, I wonder if there is any chance Deathrites of our own in the board could be of any use?

Someone once also suggested to me more Vision Charms in the board, but I don't really like that plan. For one you need extra mana open to hold it up the turn you stifle the nought and for another it doesn't protect other threats. On paper I think sinkhole and discard look the most powerful right now.

EDIT: @Roodmistah did/does it play both Tombstalker and Bob? Idk if I would be comfortable doing that, but it never killed anyone to test.

[mackaber]

@Seiklos: I've been testing the Jund MU some and it seems playing first is really big. Otherwise I'd say Jund is slightly favored but just wastelands and stifles can put some games out of they're reach. My list differs from your slightly I run - 2 Cliques -1 Tar Pit +2 Spell Pierce +1 Vision Charm, I just hate the Tar Pit in the deck and don't want to run 3 mana spells in a 18 land deck so I'm keeping it pure tempo. Those spell pierces are pretty good against Jund as they hit Hymns and Lilly's both of which can screw you as well as bolts and seizes.

[Megadeus]

Playing a pretty standard UR list right now, but I have tuned the SB to my Meta which is full of Tribal (Goblins), D&T, Combo (Tin Fins, belcher) and blue decks along with sprinkled in Chalice decks:

2x Sulfur Elemental
2x Shattering Spree (this one is kinda meh)
3x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
2x Divert

Any thoughts or suggestions? The Sulfur Elementals are kinda different from what Ive seen, but I kind of took a book out of RUG's book for dealing with Thalia decks. Shattering Sprees are so I can kill the random MUD/Chalice decks I usually face at least once. Submerges seems kind of meh.

[Vandalize]

Playing a pretty standard UR list right now, but I have tuned the SB to my Meta which is full of Tribal (Goblins), D&T, Combo (Tin Fins, belcher) and blue decks along with sprinkled in Chalice decks:

2x Sulfur Elemental
2x Shattering Spree (this one is kinda meh)
3x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
2x Divert

Any thoughts or suggestions? The Sulfur Elementals are kinda different from what Ive seen, but I kind of took a book out of RUG's book for dealing with Thalia decks. Shattering Sprees are so I can kill the random MUD/Chalice decks I usually face at least once. Submerges seems kind of meh.

Play Mind Harness instead of Submerge. We usually have 12~14 threats, that's really low compared to other decks. Stealing a Tarmogoyf off Mind Harness and keeping it for 2 turns is priceless. You'll force your opponent to trade or you'll stall the board (they won't make profitable attacks). In this deck, it works much better than Submerge.

Moreover, Mind Harness can also steal red critters. It can save you some turns by stealing a Goblin Piledriver or Goblin Warchief. These are important creatures that, usually, the owner is not willing to trade for, so they might not attack.

[Aetherick]

Play Mind Harness instead of Submerge. We usually have 12~14 threats, that's really low compared to other decks. Stealing a Tarmogoyf off Mind Harness and keeping it for 2 turns is priceless. You'll force your opponent to trade or you'll stall the board (they won't make profitable attacks). In this deck, it works much better than Submerge.

Moreover, Mind Harness can also steal red critters. It can save you some turns by stealing a Goblin Piledriver or Goblin Warchief. These are important creatures that, usually, the owner is not willing to trade for, so they might not attack.

Although I agree Mind Harness seems like it would be better in a meta with lots of goblins, piledriver has pro blue so you can't steal him with it.

[Vandalize]

Although I agree Mind Harness seems like it would be better in a meta with lots of goblins, piledriver has pro blue so you can't steal him with it.

That's true, my bad. Still, taking one Warchief or Siege-Gang Commander can buy you some time.

[Seiklos]

In a similar vein to Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation might be a decent SB card. It's kind of matchup specific for sure, pretty much SnT and BUG tempo, but it can't be decayed! Really don't need the extra hate for Show and Tell and it's kind of sub par in the RUG matchup.

Maybe mind harness is all you need to stall the board those couple of turns. If you bring in mind harness over something like submerge just be sure to keep an eye on the number of instants and sorcs for you delvers otherwise you will be down another threat.

[lordofthepit]

This is probably a super narrow application, but have you ever had a situation where you couldn't pay for Mind Harness's increasing cumulative upkeep, but used an otherwise dead Dreadnougt to sacrifice itself and the stolen creature?

[aznepyon7]

In a similar vein to Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation might be a decent SB card. It's kind of matchup specific for sure, pretty much SnT and BUG tempo, but it can't be decayed! Really don't need the extra hate for Show and Tell and it's kind of sub par in the RUG matchup.

Maybe mind harness is all you need to stall the board those couple of turns. If you bring in mind harness over something like submerge just be sure to keep an eye on the number of instants and sorcs for you delvers otherwise you will be down another threat.

I don't see how getting to 4 lands in BUG tempo is going to be easy....

And I certainly wouldn't use Sowers against Jund while Mind Harness is totally possible.

[Seiklos]

No, I would definitely not use Sowers against Jund (I don't think I mentioned Jund in the above post), but I probably wouldn't use mind harness either because it don't know what problems it solves in that matchup. Getting to 4 mana against BUG tempo isn't too difficult, that matchup, in my experience, just kind of grinds until someone sticks the first tombstalker and if you both get one then you just die to Deathrite. We could be thinking of different builds though. The one I have in mind is the one without stifle and does not maindeck sinkholes, basically BUG Delver is what I am thinking of.

Have you tested mind harness against Jund? How did it test and were you playing UR or UB?

@lordofthepit: I have never done that, but I have cast and sac'd Noughts to grow my yard for Tombstalker.

[Megadeus]

I think the best is playing a nought vs Bridge from Below...

[Grizzly_Bear]

Thought I'd share some results I've had with a dreadstill/RUG-brew I've been testing for a while. Went 4-0 in a weekly local yesterday (25 players) with this pile:

4 dreadnought
4 delver
3 grim lavamancer
2 vendilion clique

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
1 preordain

4 stifle
4 lightning bolt
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell snare
2 vision charm

4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
2 tropical island
1 island
8 blue fetch

SB
4 nimble mongoose
3 REB/pyro
2 forked bolt
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge
1 engineered explosives
1 gilded drake
1 grafdigger's cage
1 rough // tumble

The maindeck is straight up UR Stiflenought, with Ponder over Standstill and thus no manlands. I like standstill a lot, but sometimes it really just sits dead on my hand, and the fact is that the dedicated dreadnought-plan fits poorly with not being able to cantrip for enablers (or vice versa if you have an enabler with no dreadnought), so I went for a big fat 9 quality cantrips. The other big similarity you will note is to that of Eric Prem's list. The few red spells (lavamancer and bolts) could easily be exchanged for tombstalkers and black removal/discard, and you'd still have a percectly good maindeck. My preference to red is due to the reach, lavamancer's superior standing in the current meta, and sideboard options.

Now, the thing that really sticks out are the 4 mongoose in the SB. I feel very exposed dropping any of the easily killed creatures against any UW-based deck. UW miracles in particluar, but the GP Denver winning EsperBlade as well. On the other hand, when I play RUG I feel I can't lose to any of those decks. Just drop one (1!) mongoose and counter everything relevant. Which explains my SB and tropical islands.

My matches yesterday were

R1, against Death and taxes, 2-0. Dreadnought with Fow no later than turn 3 in both games. Glad I was not on regular RUG in this game, as colored creatures would get chumped all day by mother of runes.

R2, Jund, 2-1. He got the first one, but by substituting Fows for all my additional removal postboard I got there, primarily by denying him mana and killing Bob and deahtrite shamans, ignoring everything else due to my creatures evasion.

R3, Esperblade, 2-0. Again, manasrew him won me G1. G2 I substituted dreadnoughts, charm and lavamancer for mongoose, REBs and artifact removal. Worked like a charm.

R4, UR Painter, 2-1. My wins was due to delvers alone, and him taking damage from his Ancient tombs. I fought well for the game I lost, but could not play all my answers (charm, stifle, bolt) in response to a grindstone activation due to only having seen one land...

It's probably not the next big thing, but if you like playing tempo-decks (which, of course, you do! =)) and agree with me that tarmogoyf is the worst card in RUG, then I recommend you try this deck out. It's pretty fun.

[Megadeus]

I love the bible mongeese in the board. Awesome G2 when they bring in stuff to try and take down the dreadnought!

[Grizzly_Bear]

I scored another 4-0 again this week in the local legacy tournament (~30 ppl). The maindeck was the same as last week (above), and I just performed minor tweaks to the sideboard.

R1, ANT, 2-1. MVP Delver and counters
R2, Team America, 2-1. MVP grim lavamancer, stifle, wasteland, daze
R3, Esper Blade, 2-1. Nimble mongoose once again proves its worth!
R4, Rogue WBR Token deck. MVP Dreadnought!

I'm starting to believe in this deck...

[HaShugz7]

I scored another 4-0 again this week in the local legacy tournament (~30 ppl). The maindeck was the same as last week (above), and I just performed minor tweaks to the sideboard.

R1, ANT, 2-1. MVP Delver and counters
R2, Team America, 2-1. MVP grim lavamancer, stifle, wasteland, daze
R3, Esper Blade, 2-1. Nimble mongoose once again proves its worth!
R4, Rogue WBR Token deck. MVP Dreadnought!

I'm starting to believe in this deck...

What sideboard changes did u make?

[Megadeus]

That RUG version looks dope. Might have to try to get some Trops to try that list out sometime.

[Grizzly_Bear]

What sideboard changes did u make?

-EE, gilded drake and grafdigger's cage
+ 4th REB/Pyro, 2nd ancient grudge and a sulfur elemental

The gilded drake and grafdigger's cage has proven rather irrelevant, as I believe we should have at least a fair chance against S&T with just blasts, and dredge could be raced with dreadnoughts and correctly used counters. However, the new additions were not stellar either, and as I really like EE due to its versatility, it will probably come back in. I suppose the sideboard is pretty open depending on meta, the only cards I won't leave home without are the mongeese, 3-4 blasts and at least one weenie-sweeper of choice. One grudge is probably wise to include as well.

[Megadeus]

I have been testing this deck for a couple of weeks now. Ill be playing a small local for the first time tonight. Here is my current list Ill be playing tonight:

4x Delver
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Dreadnought

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
3x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Daze
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
1x Vision Charm
4x Standstill

4x Mishras Factory
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland (May not be able to get the third. If not Im playing a basic Mountain Probably)
2x Island

SB:
2x Divert
2x Sulfur Elemental
3x Rough//Tumble
2x REB
1x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
3x Submerge

Ill let everyone know how I do. Some of the board choices do seem to be a bit wonky I know. Im doing submerge over Mind Harness because it flips delver and its an instant speed removal. Sulfur Elemental is due to the large number of D&T players here. Flusterstorm due to a lot of combo. Rough//Tumble because of Tribal.

Ill just edit this post. Anyway finished 3-0-1 in the swiss but lost in the top 8. The deck is insane.

Round 1: MUD

I lose the roll and he doesnt do anything T1. I play a volcanic and pass. He goes T2 Grim monolith which I force of Will over daze which may have been wrong. But I wanted to Stifle Nought T2 which I did. Then he plays Lightning Greaves, then goes for a metalworker which I then Daze. He Scoops.

G2 He goes T1 City of Traitors, Monolith, Trinisphere. Well shit. I go Volcanic pass. He plays Factory Voltaic Key. I waste his factory hoping to mana screw him. He doesnt have another land. Next turn I play Mishras factory then the turn after that I standstill. I begin the attacks until he breaks the still with a Lodestone Golem. I then on my turn bolt the golem. Next turn nothing and I go Dreadnought with Stifle (I somehow hit 6 lands!). He plays a ratchet bomb, ticks it up, and keys it to kill my nought, but in the process he has been killing himself with 3 Ancient tombs. I play Delver and Lavamancer with him at 7 and he cant do anything and Dies.

1-0

Round 2: Death and Taxes

He goes Flagstones pass. I play delver and pass. He goes to STP and I force. My delver flips and I keep him off of blockers/ways to kill delver and it gets there.

G2 Same start except I have a lavamancer which gets STP'd. I get 2 Delvers flipped a few turns later and bolt things out of the way.

2-0

Round 3: Dream Halls OmniShow Infi Tell AKA Toy Story

Ive been testing against this guy for a week and a half now so we know the MU well. G1 My clock is a bit slow, but his mull to 6 is short on lands. Standstill comes down and I am able to win the counter war on the turn he plays SnT. The turn before I killed him I only had one mana open and on his upkeep I Vision Charmed All Islands into Plains... LOL Timewalk!

G2 Same situation, I get 2 Factories and standstill. I am able to attack for 3 and keep a mana open for either a REB or Flusterstorm. He breaks the standstill. I then Daze his SNT when he has a fetch open. He pays. Then I force, he forces back. I misdirection, he misdirects. Then since I pitched Flusterstorm I REB which gets Dazed... :( I punted. If I hadnt have dazed like an idiot I couldve flusterstormed and won.

G3 I have a Lavamancer. I play standstill even though he has a Pithing Needle Naming Mishras Factory. I beat for 1 and shock a few times until he is down to 7. He EoT Brainstorms forcing me to go to 9 cards and I have to discard. My hand is 2x Force, 1x Misdirection, 3 Blue Cards, Flusterstorm and REB. I discard REB. The counter war ensues next turn which I win thanks to infinite counters.

Round 4: ID Into top 8.

Top 8: Maverick

It really wasnt much of a game. I was exhausted and punted but Im not sure it would have mattered. I missed a delver flip as well as missed making a land drop. I also Played ponder as a brainstorm (luckily the guy was one of my friends who I drove with). Basically Maze of Ith, Quasali Pridemage plus Scryb Ranger is stupid Godd vs us. FWIW if I had drawn a Stifle to stop pridemage I wouldve won. G2 was about the same. I flip 2 delvers but he has Scryb Ranger. He also Gets Ulvenwald Tracker down which destroys us. I also have 2 dreadnoughts stranded in hand while he has a pridemage on board despite boarding one out. Its a rough MU and I dont think it is very winnable. Also I think I countered one spell the entire match. Hardcasting Force of Will on a late game irrelevant Stoneforge FTW!

Overall the deck was great. Hopefully next week I get to play with the full 3 Wastelands next week instead of the basic Mountain! (which the basic mountain actually was decent considering postboard I have a fair number of red cards).

The SB was very good all night which is something I am not used to. Flusterstorm was an All Star and Sulfur Elemental was Sweet vs my D&T opponent who went to equip a Jitte to his Judges Familiar. Only ones I didnt use were Submerge and Divert. My Meta tonight was full of a bunch of Delver decks and 3(!) Tin Fins players though I didnt face any of them.

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

I'm new in this Forum.
I'm from Switzerland and play Legacy since 2 years now.
Normally i do play Combo Decks like High Tide or ANT, but be a great fan of dreadnought too.
Well my first Post in this Forum should be here in the Dreadstill Threat. ;)

Now i've been testing this UR Dreadstill list:

1 Sensei's Divining Top (I think its a have to play 1-2 off in UR list, virtuel cards, better in Top deck Mode.)

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer ( 3 are definitly enough only you have a very Aggro Meta)
4 Dreadnoughts
1 Vendillion Clique (1off Main very good, can own Combo or is a 5th 3/1 flyer)

4 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt (Many list play only 3 Bolts, but i dont understand that, i mean its for me the best Removal in Legacy)
1 Misdirection (5th FoW, more Protection for Nought etc , very good when you draw it with Standstill)
3 Spell Snare (Better then Spell Pierce in this Slot, then hymn and Tarmo can us make some Problems)
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind ( Why not the Charm in the Meta right now? maybe 5th Stifle, Charm is a lot of the Time a death card

2 Island
1 Mountain (I think we have some Mana problems with 7 colourless Mana,fixing mana for Lavamancer
3 Mishra's Factory( Cut the 4th Mishra for the Mountain=Manafixing, a lot of g2 or g3, i do side out mishra)
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle (Very Good against UW/x Miracle, Deathrite Shaman or some other Hate!)
2 Relic of Progenitus ( Give us a card.Not only hate for Dredge or Reanimate, or for Bolt a Tarmogoyf.
1 Clique (Against Combo, sometimes against Controll like Esper or Miracle)
1 Misdirection (6th FoW or against Discard or to chance the target from a Abrupt Decay)
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Jace TMS (Jace TMS is good against Controll like the harder Miracle Match up;)

So well this is my List right now that i'm playing and it plays very well.
I hope your enjoy this List:P
and sry for my Bad English.^^

Greets from Switzerland

Pdingo

[Megadeus]

Charm is very good. Protecting a Nought from a liliana acrivation or something is awesome. That fact that it doubles as a stifle and a counter kill spell is so sick.

[Pdingo]

Yes, Maybe its a Meta Choice. But i make better expirience with Trickbind.

[tride]

Charm is very good. Protecting a Nought from a liliana acrivation or something is awesome. That fact that it doubles as a stifle and a counter kill spell is so sick.

I find it funny you came out with one example (Liliana) and it can be dealt with both: Trickbind and Charm. :P The good thing about Trickbind is, it isn't as useless as Charm when you don't have a Dreadnought. Stifle effect is seldom dead. Trickbind's split second is also very good if you are playing in meta where blue is played a lot.

[Megadeus]

What I meant was that if you nought on turn 2 and you charm and they play Liliana it is safe. Also it protects fRom abrupt decay. And you get to randomly beat a high tide player :p. And meeting a brainstorm our something. I've had charm be great in all sorts of odd situations

[Asthereal]

I think Vision Charm is especially nice to save your Nought from Abrupt Decay. It's about the only main deck card that does that. But I agree Trickbind is more widely useable.

I'm testing a Bant list now, and I play Trickbinds over Charms. The Charms are really nice in the UB list though, to fill the yard up for a Tombstalker delve.

[Megadeus]

Eh I only play the charm as a one of. Mostly as a 5th Nought Stifle/Anti Abrupt Decay card which has mostly been fine. Trickbind costing 2 is just me in my opinion. It is kind of nice to have it be Split Second though. I have had annoying times when they have a way to counter my Stifle and I get 2 for 1'd. I don't know. It is just such a tough split. The Flexibility of Vision Charm has been very sweet, as I have said I got a mono blue dream halls player with upkeep change islands to plains. Maybe Ill test the charm as if it were trickbind for a few games and see how it is, but protection wise charm is better for our nought.

[Megadeus]

So I have cut down on a Mishras Factory and added a basic mountain. I do not know if that is right, but I have wanted a basic mountain a few times.

[Amazing Larry]

So, I've been running a U/B Stiflenought list, and been very, very happy with the results. Vision Charm is very cool tech. It's either essentially a 5-mana ritual for Stalker, an enabler for Dreadnought, or protection against removal for Dreadnought. A turn 2 Tombstalker is a lot of fun, and with all that disruption you generally don't have much of a problem protecting your huge threats. Abrupt Decay is typically tough to deal with, but SB Misdirections and Charm's phasing help out a great deal. Disfigures are in there mostly for Deathrite Shaman. Perish does a great job out of the board as well nuking Goyfs, Shamans, Elves, Knights, Oozes, and Progenitus.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Disfigure

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Submerge
2 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Perish
2 Duress

[Pdingo]

@Megadeus I play the same you have a lot the situation where a mountain is a better choice than a volcanic. And i mean with 4 mishra and 3 wasteland you have 7 colourless mana sources. And in some match up mishra doesnt make anything.
i think 6 colourless and 1 off mountain are very good;)

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys,

This is the list me n xxscrumxx have been working on for the invitational in ATL.

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Lavamancer
1 Clique

4 Standstill
2 Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 Daze
2 Snare
1 Trickbind
1 Misdirection

4 Tarn
3 Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Island
2 Misty
1 Mountain

SB:

3 Dismember
3 Flusterstorm
3 CB
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Clique
1 Crucible

It's been testing about 50/50 with jund and solid as always vs combo.

Is y'all have any insight or Sudgestions please feel free to share.

[HammafistRoob]

Your maindeck looks very strong. However your sideboard NEEDS graveyard hate. I would recommend 5 pieces at least if you want to beat any graveyard deck consistently. I mean graveyard decks generally have so much inevitability that countering 2 or 3 of their threats only wins you the game if you also have a quick Dreadnought to finish with. Hitting them for two or four a turn often gives them too much time to recover. My suggestions for your sideboard would be as follows.
-3 Counterbalance( I don't like these much without 4 tops. Also what matchups are you using them for mainly?)
-1 Crucible (I'm not a fan of this in dreadstill... it doesn't do enough IMO)
-2 Sulfuric Vortex(Also not a fan of this one)
+3 Relic of Progenitus
+3 Surgical Extraction

[Pdingo]

@ gy hate

I think +3 relic of Progenitus are enough, in the meta now you have not a lot gy bases deck (maybe ant or beat a tarmo)
i would cut the same in the SB and + 3 Submerge and + 3 Relic.

[Stavanger]

@ gy hate

I think +3 relic of Progenitus are enough, in the meta now you have not a lot gy bases deck (maybe ant or beat a tarmo)
i would cut the same in the SB and + 3 Submerge and + 3 Relic.

I prepare alot against Tin Fins when testing for GP Stras (should be more our less your meta). And you have goyf, snappy, deathrite, punishing fire, dredge, nimble, time spiral, lingering souls and kotr amongst others.

[kombatkiwi]

Would there be a reason to play a non-delver dreadnought deck (In the vein of the old UR / URg controlling builds) or is the delver version pretty much strictly better now?

[HammafistRoob]

I could see a list with CBTop, a few Trinket Mages and Engineered Explosives doing fine. The reason I say this is because if you take Delvers out, you heavily increase your reliance on Dreadnought. So you would either need to desperately protect Dreadnought for two turns or have sone way to keep the opposing board clear of creatures so your Factories and Lavamancers can get the job done.
Would there be a reason to play a non-delver dreadnought deck (In the vein of the old UR / URg controlling builds) or is the delver version pretty much strictly better now?

[Scrum]

Here is an example list that does not include Delver, and is a throwback to the old school Dreadstill lists. What are you guys thinking of this?

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Misdirection

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Dismember
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

[HaShugz7]

What yall think of this for an old school list?

4 Nought
4 Lavamancer
2 Trinket Mage

4 Standstill
3 Top
3 CB
1 Explosives
1 Collar

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Stifle
3 Snare
2 Misdirection
1 Mask

4 Tarn
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
2 Misty
2 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins

SB:

3 Flusterstorm
3 REB
2 Dismember
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Perish
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Spellbomb
1 Needle

[alphastryk]

Here is an example list that does not include Delver, and is a throwback to the old school Dreadstill lists. What are you guys thinking of this?

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Misdirection

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Dismember
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

I'm a big fan of Vision Charm over trickbind, as it can protect your dreadnaught from Abrupt Decay, but it seems reasonable otherwise. I want to play Pyroclasm here over Rough / Tumble, as we don't have any cliques or anything to save and I want to kill flipped Delvers. Maybe Forked Bolt? I'm not sure how needed Dismember is, or what matchups it is for?

[Scrum]

I'm a big fan of Vision Charm over trickbind, as it can protect your dreadnaught from Abrupt Decay, but it seems reasonable otherwise. I want to play Pyroclasm here over Rough / Tumble, as we don't have any cliques or anything to save and I want to kill flipped Delvers. Maybe Forked Bolt? I'm not sure how needed Dismember is, or what matchups it is for?

I agree with the Pyroclasm. Dismember is for Goyf, he is a problem. I am playing two Misdirection and Counterbalance to protect Dreadnought. Vision charm can be sweet though. I am open to suggestions for other sideboard configurations. Thanks for the reply.

[Rood]

You can run old school Dreadstill sure but why? Might as well be brushing off your Werebears for Threshold too.

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [JGC] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
5 [10E] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [A] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

It would be the same as all our other old school lists. Lacks removal but more protection for Dreadnought.

[HaShugz7]

Wish me luck...here's my final list for the invitational.

4 Delver
4 Nought
4 Lavamancer

4 Standstill
2 Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
4 Daze
2 Misdirection
1 Vision Charm

4 Tarn
3 Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Island
2 Misty
1 Mountain

SB:

3 REB
3 Spell Pierce
3 Relic
2 Envelop
2 Forked Bolt
2 Rough/Tumble

[Mortox]

You can run old school Dreadstill sure but why? Might as well be brushing off your Werebears for Threshold too.

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [JGC] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
5 [10E] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [A] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

It would be the same as all our other old school lists. Lacks removal but more protection for Dreadnought.

I really like the toolbox aspect of this list, I haven't been a huge fan of lavamancer lately anyway, I mean he has his uses for dealing with a few of the annoying creatures (delver, DRS, thalia, bob, etc) but I feel the added control/utility of a list like this might be more valuable against a broader field.

Considering the additional artifacts in your list though, I would definitely try to fit in either some Vision Charms, Misdirects, or even Diverts to deal with the abundance of Abrupt Decay. Maybe -3 Spell Snare (most narrow) -1 Trickbind, +3 Vision Charm, +1 Daze/Misdirect or something like that? Having additional Dreadnought enablers (vision charms) allows you to use your Stifles much more aggressively as well since you're very likely to find an enabler with 7+ effects in the deck.

Anyway nice to see more discussion/development here, this is far and away my favorite Legacy deck.

[SupREME-10]

I have found spell snare and vision charm to both be MD worthy and very very good vs the current decks being run. The Rock, JUND, and other decks are using so many 2 cmc cards that spell snare is appropriate and as mentioned earlier, the addition of a couple vision charm in a deck allows for more aggressive play. I tried the old school trinket mage package but it makes the deck more mid-range which can be god but which can also allow opponents too much time to establish. I prefer faster games that play like an izzet delver deck only packing a massive dread punch.

PS -- and although I have several legacy decks built, I have really loved playing this one; especially when you land a turn 2 dread and get to swing with it.

[HammafistRoob]

Its even better to land Dread turn2 after you stifled their fetchland.

[Seiklos]

Very interesting, I also tried phantasms and more visions charms in my UB list, but they seem better on mono blue. Foil is a neat idea for sure because you are actually running 20 lands and don't really ever need more than 2 out. Also, props on solid 4 ofs!

As a side note, are there going to be any other Dreadnought players in Milwaukee this weekend?

[HaShugz7]

I'm sorry but I just can't get on board with foil...3 for 1 is not what we want to be doing in a deck that is already 2 for 1ing itself

I would cut wasteland before I cut factory

Try dismember over pongify

20 lands is a lot with no top

[Lord Seth]

Picked up this deck again after a while and found out it's still doing pretty well at my local gameshop. Wish there was a bigger tournament somewhere so I could give it a shot there.

[Niggurath]

Hey guys, was going to try a UR build, but haven't been able to get grim lavamancers on time for a tourney.

Reading the UB lists in the last 10 pages, I've built this:

Lands
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Island

Creatures
4 Delver Of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Disfigure
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
4 Standstill

Sideboard
3 Divert
1 Massacre
3 Perish
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Spell Pierce
4 Leyline Of The Void

I've seen that UB lists don't usually run standstills, but I feel that it's necessary because the eight 2x1 the deck runs, and mostly because I love that card :smile:

I absolutely love the 8 cantrips, but I'm not totally sure about splashing black but not running thoughtseizes, not even on sideboard. This is because, in my opinion, deck has to be reactive over proactive, and that matches my playstyle. Against combo I can add spell pierces and mindbreak trap, and against green aggro can add perish, so thoughtseizes could be not a need, but I might be wrong.

Note that I don't have 4 underground seas, so I added a 7th fetch. I tried running 1 swamp but I didn't like it.

Thoughts?:smile:

[Claymore]

This deck got 9th last weekend at the SCG Open. Not strictly just a Stiflenought or Dreadstill list, but thought you people might like it:

Creatures (21)

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

Lands (19)

1 Bayou
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave

Spells (20)

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam

[Megadeus]

I really like that.bug list. watching.it.in action was cool. I would definitely play it if I had all of the cards for it

[Koby]

One card I find really odd in here is Tarmogoyf.
Another, is the lack of Force of Will; barring that, lack of Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce which are both stronger than Inquisition of Kozilek IMO.

[Megadeus]

giyf is. big solid beater who works well with scavenge. no force or fluster storm is somewhat odd though

[Koby]

Goyf is big enough on its own, and doesn't need a 2 card combo with Varolz/Dreadnought/Shadow to make him big. Adding more removal and counters could help insure that Goyf gets to 4/5 easily (which in most matchups is large enough).

The Varolz/scavenge is pretty neat, but seems overplayed considering it requires 4 mana to get a big boost. Not trying to shoot it down, but looking at the realistic cost to make something "big".

[kingtk3]

I would like to build a deck around Varolz and Dreadnought too, but I don't have enough time right now.
However I think I understand why Gage Bunting choose to run tarmogoyf: if you play Varolz you need a decent amount of creatures because you need at least two to profit from his ability (one in a grave and one in play).

My first thought is that you really want to scavenge on something like invisible stalker or Silhana Ledgewalker because they are hard to remove. However they are also awful without varolz on the field. So in order to avoid too many dead cards (remember that dreadnought and death shadow are also dead without, respectively, stifle and some self inflicted damage) he has resolved to play goyf which is good on his own.
However goyf seems that doesn't need Varolz which then become a win more card.

I look at Varolz as a sort of card advantage machine: if a creature is killed it will come back (kind of) on the "back" of another, which is it's good in grindy matches. It can enable nice tricks with 'nought/shadow, but i think it's more than a pump effect.

If I were to build a Varolz deck I would like to play torpor orb and a full set of dreadnought instead of shadow (I would play a couple of them maybe) because I think it's easier to play. Torpor orb has also some nice interaction with some problematic creatures opponent's may play: SCM (no more double swords), vendilion, stoneforge and emrakul (LOL).

[Jay_Gatz]

Emrakul's trigger is on casting, torpor orb won't stop it.

[HammafistRoob]

This is a list I just came up with, it's more focused on the mid-late game.

-LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

-CREATURES-10
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Trinket Mage

-PERMANENTS-7
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Standstill

-SPELLS-22
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

-SIDEBOARD-15
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Dark Confidant
3 Vision Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives


The sideboard hasn't been used yet since I'm still trying to tweak the maindeck. The Vision Charms seem good since they double as an enabler for the Dreadnought and protection from Abrupt Decay.

[Megadeus]

I look at Varolz as a sort of card advantage machine: if a creature is killed it will come back (kind of) on the "back" of another, which is it's good in grindy matches. It can enable nice tricks with 'nought/shadow, but i think it's more than a pump effect.


Right. It essentially gives all of your dudes flashback in some sense.

[TraxDaMax]

One card I find really odd in here is Tarmogoyf.
Another, is the lack of Force of Will; barring that, lack of Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce which are both stronger than Inquisition of Kozilek IMO.



I've been pondering how to jam force in the list too and get those silly goyfs out. FoW does make playing dark confidant pretty risky.

[scottpou]

I am going to the SCG Open in Worcester, MA this Sunday. I have not gone to an official MTG tournament since 2005, so I am quite nervous and excited. Even back then when I used to attend weekly tournaments, there was never more than 20 people who participated. Does anyone have any advice for one of these SCG Opens? Here is my current deck list after several weeks of tweaking and testing with my play group:

//Creatures (12):
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Jace's Phantasm

// Instants (20):
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Rapid Hybridization
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm

// Sorcery (8):
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

// Lands (20):
14 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard (15):
3 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
3 Rapid Hybridization
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Trickbind

[Megadeus]

What do Jaces Phantasm and Rapid Hybridization do.here? I think V Clique would be solid in.mono U.

also I assume you dont have access to blue fetches so you can be playing brainstorm?

[scottpou]

phantasm is a cheap 5/5 flyer. same as tombstalker in the UB Dreadnought. along the same lines with the UB versions, rapid hybridization is creature removal. dismember can't take out a Grisselbrand.

I actually do have the blue fetches and the brainstorms, but during testing thresh's (which I'm expecting a lot of) stifle was a pain one too many times. honestly i haven't missed it that much. sure hiding cards from the thoughtseize and hymn is nice but that's why I put two Flusterstorm into the main.

does anyone have any useful tips or suggestions for attending one of these opens? :smile: my teammate and I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks

[HammafistRoob]

Jace's Phantasm seems terrible with Deathrite Shaman everywhere. Do stifles really scare you out of playing fetches and Brainstorms? Brainstorm is THE best card in the format. It is extremely relevant to be able to get rid of unwanted Dreadnoughts sitting in your hand. I just don't see a reason to not play Brainstorm and Fetches.

Also, the lack of Standstill is a mistake. I hate seeing this card cut since it plays a massive role in 75% of the matchups out there. Another key strength of the deck is its flexible manabase. Please play to the decks strength's.

I would definitely play URx with Grim Lavamancer, Brainstorm, and Standstill.