[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Yan]

So, 5-2 in the Finnish Legacy Champs ending up 16th on the breakers and just on the money. List was the same from pages ago, no need for any changes.

R1, Burn. I know the guy from our previous encounters and remember that he's pretty much always playing burn, so I assume nothing has changed. I win the roll and keep an unfair hand with turn one Delver and turn 2 Dreadnought. He manages to get one Lavamancer on board before scooping in my second end phase. Second game I try to play around Smash to Smithereens, which opens up a window for him to resolve Ensnaring Bridge. I get a Delver and two Lavamancers to apply some beats, before he empties his hand. He tries to get rid of my first 'mancer, but Misdirect the bolt back to him. Dreadnought saccing itself and the Delver provides the last cards that I need to shoot lethal with Lavamancers. 1-0 (2-0)

R2, Jund Loam. Jani (syfilisx) told me had lost to this guy on the first round, so I went to the table ready to accept the loss. I loose the roll but manage to counter his Chalice. I get a Lavamancer going, and he seems to be stumbling on mana. Brainstorm gives me pretty much the nuts and I go for the Dreadnought. He has a Decay, but Misdirection makes sure that Lavamancer takes one for the team (he didn't have any non-land permanents). I attack and pass the turn with only Brainstorm in my hand. He draws, finally plays his 3rd land and plays Liliana, I Brainstorm and find Daze. Second game he destroys me completely, as he should. Third game I start with a two Wasteland + Crucible hand, and decide to go all on it. I waste his two first lands and try to find more lands in time to drop Crucible. He seems to be stumbling again, so I get the waste lock going and the game ends few turns after with him having 0 permanents on board. Fatality, go home Jund! 2-0 (4-1)

R3, Miracles. The first game is really grindy but I win eventually after drawing cards from 2 Standstills. This involved me countering all his win conditions and counterbalances and burning him out. Second game I scoop to Baneslayer, which sneaks past my counterwall. Third game is again very grindy (he took at least 2-3 mulligans but I kept a sketchy 1-lander), at some point he has 1 card in hand, nothing on the board, so I go for Standstill. His card is Snapcaster, so I'm forced to Daze my own Standstill. Later I find just enough gas to finish him on extra turns. 3-0 (6-2)

R4, BUG Landstill. We are both pretty upset that we didn't get featured on this round, as Standstill mirrors are the only real Magic there is. Game one I counter his Standstill and after that, deploy 3 creatures and follow up with my own Standstill. This is pretty much enough already and I burn him out few turns later. Next game I loose to Tarmogoyf, which I clearly wasn't expecting for some reason. I change my boarding plan on the fly, but can't really come up with a good one, so second game goes pretty much the same way. After some time, I figured out some changes, that might have had an effect on the outcome of the game, but well, that's too late and mistakes were made. 3-1 (7-4)

R5, RUG Delver (feature match). Even if this was featured on camera, there is really nothing much to tell about this. I still believe the matchup is favorable, even if I lost. Loosing the die roll is one thing, mulliganing to 5 is another. That was game 1. Second game he is flooding and Crucible takes over with unlimited factories to block his Mongoose. Game 3 I mulligan to 6, keep a pretty bad hand thinking it's still probably better than going to 5, but it's just never enough. 3-2 (8-5)
I'm out of top 8 and pretty pissed but decide to finish on the money anyway.

R6, Infect. First game I mulligan and never find any kind of removal, so he just slowly makes me very sick. Second and third are pretty much copies of each other. I can't find lavamancers, but bolts and wastelands do enough to defend. All the time I have the feeling, that I should be dead on the next turn. I have nothing relevant in my hand and he would need 1 pump spell to finish me off. He never has it in both games, so I win. Very weird games, as it seems both of our decks didn't really perform as they were supposed. 4-2 (10-6)

R7, OmniTell. This time my deck decides to love me back a little. Both games are exactly the same. I start with turn 1 Delver, never drew more than 3 lands, never drew any other threats either, which means all the cards that I drew, were counters or draw spells. Had at least 3 defensive spells in my hand all the time, so both times that he went for the desperate Show and Tell, I just defended. Didn't feel like a fair game. 5-2 (12-6)

To make top8 in a 100+ player tournament still remains very hard. I believe both of my losses could have been avoided with a little bit more luck, so I can't be too disappointed. It's probably time to archive this build, I have been very happy with it and will probably keep it as my go to solution for bigger events. I've played the heck out of it, so I feel very comfortable with all the decisions it brings. Many will call it a piece of crap just by looking at the list, but I'm always happy to prove them wrong :) From now on, I'll be working on a different version, maybe even without Dreadnoughts. But we'll see how that turns out. Good luck to you all and I'll keep posting if I have any input regarding this deck. ...and sorry for any mistakes I made, late night, long post and all.

[FoolofaTook]

@Yan

Could you please repost the list? I went back to April in the thread and couldn't find the one you referenced. Curious about CA and what your build does.

Semi-related topic: Is Trinket Mage just too slow at this point? I miss the toolkit it offered.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Since I own an (almost) foiled version of Vintage Urb Landstill, I thought I would convert it to a Legacy Landstill deck and pimp it up at last night's local. Here's what I brought:

Urb DreadStill

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamander

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
1 Misdirection

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Misdirection
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Grim Lavamancer

Thanks, Yan, for the list and the sideboard guide!

Here is Yan's original list, I didn't see a specific list posted but this guy references it in his post.

[Yan]

Here is Yan's original list, I didn't see a specific list posted but this guy references it in his post.

That, except
- ug sea
- divert
+ fetch
+ trickbind

I'll edit other stuff to this post in a moment, when I have more time.


Edit. Going in to that tournament, I felt like misdirection might be a wasted slot, but it was probably the single best card in the deck in the end, so I can definitely say that it overperformed. On the other hand, I felt lavamancers would be the MVP, but then they got sided out many times and even when they were in, they mostly just absorbed some removal. That made me think of a more blue build to try out without them. It might be that l have to abandon also standstill at that point. The deck that I have been running, was specifically designed to take as much advantage as l could from Standstill. This was mostly achieved through a powerfull one drop that would dominate the board, followed up by Standstill. This kind of tempo plan worked very well with the package of wasteland and stifle, so Dreadnought was more of a natural synergistic addition, than the plan itself. Other usual stuff just wrapped the deck together, making it very easy to switch gears between being an aggressive delver burn, controlling standstill deck or a comboish "eat this 12/12 worm". To master the deck, you would first have to learn which role you want to take in each matchup, or more like, which combination of two of these plans.

Regarding Trinket Mage and Counterbalance. Having tested all kinds of builds during last 4 or so years, I would have to say that pretty much anything in legacy will work to some extent. It is just my opinion, that the tempo version of the deck, featuring delvers, is probably the best. It is not the best delver deck (I mean best deck for delver considering every aspect), but it beats other delver decks fairly consistently. Delver might not be the MVP here, because the flip rate is sometimes infernal, but it does it's job. Then again, a more controlling version with trinket mages, or even counterbalances might work really well too. I'll actually might go back to trying some of those just for fun. Now that I have pretty much finished every tournament 5-2 or something similar inside the last 2 years, I feel the tempo build that I have, is pretty much proven. I need to just have that one more lucky pairing to hit a great result.


edit2.
So to be exact, here is the list that I played, again every card in german ;)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamander

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Misdirection
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Crucible of Worlds

[Deckerator]

Have you already tested Young Pyromancer?
I think it would be a good addition to that. And what about forked bolt?
How often have you good problems that stifle get countered and you lose 2vs1 ?

[Yan]

Have you already tested Young Pyromancer?
I think it would be a good addition to that. And what about forked bolt?
How often have you good problems that stifle get countered and you lose 2vs1 ?

I don't think pyromancer is the thing you want. Or I don't really know where to play it. Instead of dreadnought? I'm quite cautious with my dreadnoughts actually, so I don't remember when my stifle got countered last time. The problem is mostly with removal of course. Also, trickbind is just great if you want to be sure to resolve it. Mostly I just wait that they tap out though, so that it's safe, and I don't go just blindly into a trap with it. If I'm not sure that it survives, it's usually the last threat that I deploy actually.

Edit. Ah, forked bolt is one of the cards that is competing with lavamancer, but lavaman is better with standstill and it is also a threat by itself, so it wins the slot for me.

[FoolofaTook]

2-1 with the list I posted above tonight. The only changes were 2 Rough//Tumble in the SB for 2 of the Pyroclasms after I realized they were a one-sided board wipe against most tribal lists.

Lost 2-1 to UR Delver round 1 with consistently bad hands that I had to mull. Beat UG Infect 2-1 round 2 with consistently bad hands that I had to mull and a hand that I flipped a coin over and finally said "oh what the f!". Lost the first game on a mull to 5 and won 2nd on a mull to 6. Kept a 1-lander full of gas game 3 and got lucky when he didn't have 1 of his 2 wastelands in the opening hand. What was the overall problem in the first 2 rounds? No colored lands. I think I had 1 or 2 Mishra's in every hand I opened tonight. When I had a fetch or Volcanic Island in the hand alongside it I won.

Had 2 great hands in round 3 against RW Stax and swept him out of both games before he could get setup. He lost with Smokestack on the table game 1 to a rampaging dreadnought and he had Magus of the Moon on the board game 2 while 2 delvers flew overhead and a bolt finished him. He cast the magus turn 2 off a City of Traitors and a Plateau and I just watched it go by with 2 FoW and 2 other blue cards in hand. I already had an island on the board and a delver I knew was flipping that turn because I wasn't going to wait for the natural flip against a Stax list. All I had to do was protect the delver and he was done and 2 FoW looked awfully good at that point. He did take my Mishra's Factory out of play but it wasn't needed anyway.

Standstill is still an all-star in the list. Every time I cast it I won and nobody waited more than a turn to break it. I cast it 4 times in 8 games and it drew me 3 cards each time by the end of the opponent's turn. One of the games was win-more, that being the middle game against UR Delver when I cast Stiflenought and then Standstill all on turn 5 or 6 and he broke it with a Shattering Spree we both knew he had courtesy of his flipped delver. I already had the FoW and blue card in hand and he had only 1 red source thanks to wasteland and the dreadnought beat him next turn with no help from the 2 lands and a Brainstorm that Standstill found for me.

Treasure Cruise drew some cards on the night also but it wasn't as good as Standstill overall. I resolved both Treasure Cruises game 1 against UR Delver and still couldn't quite catch up to him after the bad opening. The Mishra's were holding off his Monastery Swiftspears in the mid-game but he was resolving TC also and he eventually burned me out.

Fire//Ice won me 1 game but was a non-factor the rest of the night. It took out a Blighted Agent and a Noble Heirarch in game 3 against UG Infect. Other than that I had it in hand a fair amount and wasn't really excited about it, 2cc is a lot to pay for creature removal when you're facing Daze early on. Echoing Truth was another blah card although I would have used it against the Smokestack if the dreadnought and a Mishra's weren't winning the game the next turn. I did Echoing Truth 2 flipped delvers in game 3 against UR Delver but he just put them back down and flipped them the next turn and beat me anyway. Note to self: Echoing Truth isn't really an ace without CounterTop to stop them from putting stuff right back on the board against you. It was a timewalk for me in a loss and not much more than that all night.

I had forgotten how mull intensive Dreadstill is. No tops in this version is making me wonder if 23 lands isn't a better place to be.

I'm thinking about trying this next week:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Standstill
1 Treasure Cruise

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice

1 Engineered Explosives

3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction

[Yan]

My quest for a perfect 75 was kind of in a standstill until now. I knew the deck was really good, but I had the feeling that some microscopical change might just unlock something even better. I went deep in to my brainstorming, tried to figure out different configurations and eventually found it…and came back to almost where I was. Just as I thought I would.

My deck building philosophy always starts from the fact that it is not just a 60 card deck plus a 15 card sideboard, but a 75 card unit that has in it, exactly 60 cards for ’each’ matchup. No less and preferably no more either. This is sometimes a big challenge to actually achieve, so decks that can’t acomplish that, usually leave me unsatisfied.

I think I might have found, if not perfect, at least a very solid core for this deck, so I try to cut my thought process in to smaller pieces, so that it might be easier to understand.

Let’s start with the lands. For years, I was fixed with the idea that this deck runs with 20 lands and that’s it. A tempo deck with Mishra’s Factories AND Wastelands couldn’t possibly run with less for sure. I was also pretty sure that you would have to choose which one of those two was your 4-off, and the other one would then get 2-3 slots. Just judging by my own experience, 13 coloured sources felt most of the time enough. It has been actually more often, that I have to mulligan a 0-lander, than that I have to mulligan a hand with, lets say 2 colorless sources. So what actually unlocked my thinking, was the realization that adding another colorless land wouldn’t actually hurt the manabase on the sense that most of the time a hand without a colored source, would still be mulligan, as it always had been. Playing with 21 land on the other hand, gives you quite the genius boarding options (I come to that a bit later), and overal just make the deck flow in a better way in most of the game ones, where you are trying to figure out, which of the many possible plans is the right one for each matchup.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
7 Fetch lands
6 Fetchable lands
From now on, this will be my manabase. Depending on the flex slots, the fetchable lands would be either 4 Volcanics + 2 Islands, or my classical 3-2-1 (Volcanic-Island-Mountain).

Then comes the no-brainer selections. These are the ones that I would never cut from the list, unless I’m brewing something totally new for fun.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
The consistency is the key here. I understand the logic behind cutting maybe one Dreadnought or one Standstill, but then again, you will see them that much less often, which can be crucial at times. After all, you are playing f*cking DreadStill, so you anyway need to have some balls to begin with.

After those, you will probably need 2 additional cards to cheat the mighty 12/12 on the battlefield. My choice in here has always been Trickbind, and I obviously feel that it is superior to anything else. Here’s a fact: For years, the metagame has been filled with blue. Trickbind is great against blue, hence my selection.

The main deck is now missing 9 cards, but let me start by talking about 8 of them. These are, what I would probably call the flex slots. You will most likely need 4 or 6 Soft counters, 2 pieces of additional creature removal and 2 or 0 utilily cards or additional draw spells. Preferably at least 6 of these 8 should be instants or sorceries, to maintain at least a decent Delver flip ratio. Soft counters of choice are Daze and Spell Pierce, naturally. You could go with just 4 Daze, have 4-2 split, or my oldschool version of 3-3 split. I think any of those would be okay, if you keep in mind to fix the holes that you leave here, by adding something of similar role to your sideboard. Additional removal could be anything from Lavamancers to Forked Bolt or even Sudden Shock. Adding two Snapcaster Mages to utility slots, opens up some interesting sideboard options, but to be honest with you all, I would just go with the 6 counters and 2 removal spells. In those 2 utility slots, you dirty delve lovers should also find the place for your Treasure Cruises, but I just simply don’t feel the need for that myself.

So, one slot remains, and let me just take a moment to advocate, how great that 1-off Misdirection is. It’s versatile in almost any matchup and it comes always as surprise. I can’t possibly understand why you wouldn’t want to play it. It also gets even better against all those random stuff, that people will just keep playing in tournaments, because they want to have fun. I played it before Decay came and loved it, and even if Decay is now underplayed, I still think it is just too good to pass.

So, let’s build the bridge in the storyline to the sideboard and start of by saying, if Misdirection is so great, why not put another one on the sideboard. And that is exactly what I would always do. This is also an easy place to explain my new found philosophy in boarding. Most of the matches you’ll play, you’ll probably be fine with just 20 lands in the deck. So in all of these matchups, I’ll start by examining which of the two colorless lands is good and which one is less good. Then I ask myself, is Misdirection great in this matchup? If the answer is yes, Misdirection will simply replace the land. If the answer is no, then you’ll take out both the land and the Misdirection, and replace them with other cards. (There are some exceptions of matchups, where you could want to keep 21 lands after boarding, mostly when you don’t have a streamlined plan that you are trying to execute. In those matches, just cutting one of the less good cards will have to do, or then just leaving in the 1 Misdirection for funsies.)

By having a deck full of 4-offs and 2-offs, it becomes very tempting to fill your sideboard with different 2-offs too. And it is actually a very good idea too. You can be versatile and have answers to many different things, and boarding becomes extremely easy. The deck wil by absolute have an even number of useless cards (discounting this Misdirection-Land swap plan), and your sideboard will by definition, if you have built it correctly, have the same amount of good cards to bring in. This is my goal in a nutshell. To have 75 cards, of which I can create a 60 cards deck for each matchup. In a way, post board games with this deck are usually quite a streamlined and you have clear plan of what you need to do to win. There is not much of card selection, so I very much don’t like the way of sideboarding where you shave some copies of each card to make room for your better cards. If a card is good, it should earn it’s full potential for the consistency reasons. If it’s bad or probably even mediocre, 0 copies are needed.

This same method works the same way with asideboard, that put in numbers would look like this: 3-3-3-3-2-Misdirection. For example, if I put it in context, my old sideboard would now look like this:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Misdirection
This configuration is solid too, but it becomes harder to choose the right cards and you will probably be missing some kind of hate, like me for example in here, am totally missing gravehate.

But well, I’m not yet at the place, where I could say that I have found the perfect sideboard, but I think I’m getting there. (Okay, there is no such thing as perfect, but I’m aiming to get close and have versatile sideboard for a developed metagame) And maybe opening the thought process behind the core of the deck, might be helpful for some new players too. Or maybe I just had to open it up for myself too, it’s Christmas anyways so I thought I might share a lengthly post.

I remind everyone, that this is my way of doing things with this deck and while they have proven to work with me and with some others, other ways of building the deck might be as correct as this one is.

Also, I'm perfectly fine with playing with a preboarded deck in an event that I know is full of certain kind of decks, but for the easier reading, I will exclude those. The same concept would still apply though, having a 75, not a 60.

Happy holidays to you all!



Edit. I realized it might be helpful to have my current list as reference.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Trickbind
1 Misdirection

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

SB:
1 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grim Lavamancer

[FoolofaTook]

This archetype is just so well positioned against the current meta. If you keep to the basic shell you have answers for almost everything alongside really nasty threats that people have trouble managing as a spread.

Its Tempo Landstill with a really nasty combo prospect in the offing to end games fast when you hit the inflection point.

[FoolofaTook]

I put this up in the BUG Delver thread as a possible variation. Anybody see major flaws in it aside from the vulnerability to moon and wasteland?

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Mishra's Factory

Selection/Advantage

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Treasure Cruise

Disruption

4 Stifle
3 Wasteland
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Somebody already suggested dropping the Bayou for the 4th Wasteland and I think that's a good idea. Anybody see other improvements or things I missed in the main list?

[Howishotgun]

Man I am excited to try out U/W especially with the spoil of the new ability manifest

[FoolofaTook]

Tricolor Balls to the Wall build - RUG Tempo style

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

SB

3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rough // Tumble

Full Tempo plan with 14 cards that can disrupt opponents mana development and 12 threats that have to be answered fast. 8 red burn including 4 mini-sweepers for things like Elves, D&T and Infect. Sideboard allows for transform to heavy permission control with the noughts siding out for additional counters. 2 more sweepers in the SB for when sweeping is a necessity early on. Counterbalance is handled by 2 REB's/2 Krosan Grip. Opposing Wastelands are naturally handled by Stifle/Trickbind and there is a Surgical Extraction for the rare Wastelock attempts.

Thoughts?

[hobart]

Tricolor Balls to the Wall build - RUG Tempo style

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

SB

3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rough // Tumble

Full Tempo plan with 14 cards that can disrupt opponents mana development and 12 threats that have to be answered fast. 8 red burn including 4 mini-sweepers for things like Elves, D&T and Infect. Sideboard allows for transform to heavy permission control with the noughts siding out for additional counters. 2 more sweepers in the SB for when sweeping is a necessity early on. Counterbalance is handled by 2 REB's/2 Krosan Grip. Opposing Wastelands are naturally handled by Stifle/Trickbind and there is a Surgical Extraction for the rare Wastelock attempts.

Thoughts?

Dreadnought is not a thing without card advantage in the list. Without Standstills or Treasure Cruises you will be carded right out of the game. Occasionally your mana denial will hold the opponent off until you can kill with a fast goyf or dreadnought. But a STP or Abrupt Decay on your noughts is a 2 for 1 that you probably won't be able to come back from.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

The deck performs better of you keep it to 1-2 colors.

[Hopo]

Tricolor Balls to the Wall build - RUG Tempo style

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island


To me, the most succesful dreadnought builds outside dreadstill lists always were just like this: Canadian thresh-like tempo piles, but you absolutely need some card advantage to go with stiflenought. I have used Dark Confidant/Standstill/Counterbalance/Kira the Great Glass-spinner to fight the self-inflicted 2-for-1's. Nowadays Treasure Cruise or more likely Dig Through Time would be very good.

Fire/Ice is a powerful card I'd like to see in more UR lists of any kind. It makes Daze much better later or forces the opponent to play into it in early turns. A very solid card, perhaps my favorite in all M:tG. The problem in your list is that this would probably be the slot to use for actual card draw. If you want to max out F/I, try replacing goyfs with confidants. This keeps the threat count in 12 and still draws you cards.

[sawatarix]

Is there a possibility to build a deck around dreadnought in a more controlish way?
Snapcaster Mage comes in my mind as it flashbbacks stifle if needed and other sweet stuff because we always need counterbackup the turn we 'go off'.
What about a hardcore snapcaster-controldeck with a quick dreadnought finish?
I know that this approach is completely different than the rug tempoish list above, but in my opinion there are many ways to construct a nice arrangement around dreadnought.

What about something like this? (Untested so far but i will the next few days)

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory

Sb:

x
x
x
x
x
x
x
2x Krosan Grip

Looks a it like Lam Phans UR Standstilldeck featuring dreadnought as an altrnative and fast killcondition.

[Lemnear]

Is there a possibility to build a deck around dreadnought in a more controlish way?
Snapcaster Mage comes in my mind as it flashbbacks stifle if needed and other sweet stuff because we always need counterbackup the turn we 'go off'.
What about a hardcore snapcaster-controldeck with a quick dreadnought finish?
I know that this approach is completely different than the rug tempoish list above, but in my opinion there are many ways to construct a nice arrangement around dreadnought.

What about something like this? (Untested so far but i will the next few days)

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory

Sb:

x
x
x
x
x
x
x
2x Krosan Grip

Looks a it like Lam Phans UR Standstilldeck featuring dreadnought as an altrnative and fast killcondition.

Cloudform + Dreadnaught + Delver + CounterTop should be miles better than trying to cheat in a Dreadnaught with Stifle just to see it die to Decay

[death]

Cloudform + Dreadnaught + Delver + CounterTop should be miles better than trying to cheat in a Dreadnaught with Stifle just to see it die to Decay

And what do you propose to do will all the drawn Phyrexian Dreadnoughts sitting in your hand when there's no Brainstorm to shuffle them back? It's never bad to have that option to put a Dreadnought into play, or to Stifle fetches and stop removal spells from being cast.

Stifle has a wide application in the deck, and if ANT/TES is played in your area, it's even counterintuitive to cut it.

[Hopo]

Cloudform + Dreadnaught + Delver + CounterTop should be miles better than trying to cheat in a Dreadnaught with Stifle just to see it die to Decay

The main idea should be not to play dreadnoughts when Abrupt Decay is big in the metagame. I cannot be sure if Cloudform is better than Vision Charm or Mother of Runes against Decay but maybe we get some feedback from the brewers soon.

[Lemnear]

The main idea should be not to play dreadnoughts when Abrupt Decay is big in the metagame. I cannot be sure if Cloudform is better than Vision Charm or Mother of Runes against Decay but maybe we get some feedback from the brewers soon.

The Cloudform is a Stifle and a Mother in a single card. I consider this very relevant


Stifle has a wide application in the deck, and if ANT/TES is played in your area, it's even counterintuitive to cut it.

Has a Stifle EVER snatched a Storm trigger unless you played against an idiot or totally new player? I doubt that.

[FoolofaTook]

The Cloudform is a Stifle and a Mother in a single card. I consider this very relevant



Has a Stifle EVER snatched a Storm trigger unless you played against an idiot or totally new player? I doubt that.

Stifle stops their fetches. Storm has real trouble playing against anything with Stifle + Wasteland + counters. That's what happens when you play very few lands and no basics in your build.

I don't believe that I've ever lost to a Storm list when playing RUG Canadian or Dreadstill. Might be a loss in the mid-rounds of a tourney I was sucking in somewhere there but it doesn't come to mind right now.

[Hopo]

The Cloudform is a Stifle and a Mother in a single card. I consider this very relevant

Combining Stifle and mother into a single card requires actually Cloudform, Dreadnought and a way to put dreadnought on top of your library. Cloudform would be so much better if you could play it as a regular aura also.




Has a Stifle EVER snatched a Storm trigger unless you played against an idiot or totally new player? I doubt that.

Stifle is a card that storm cannot play through without finding discard. Fow is similar. Seems relevant. Stifle is bad only when they Ad Nauseam as it pretty much guarantees the disruption and kill.

Stifle became more relevant after people started to ditch Silence/Chant. It's another counterspell.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Sometimes the Storm player HAS to go for it without complete information.

[FoolofaTook]

I decided to do some Rood things in my adaptation last night at FNM. We had a decent turnout for Legacy with 16 players and they went 4 rounds for a change. I think they were trying to keep players around for the pre-release and figured running 4 guaranteed rounds would help with that.

I was playing the Landstill/Tempo mix Ive been running but I cut 2 lands for probes last night to see how things would shake out with a 58/21 mix instead of 60/23. My main inspiration for doing that was Rood's GP NJ list that went 58/20 with 2 probes. The math says that 58/21 gives you the same 59.7% chance of hitting the 2 to 3 land sweet spot and only an 8.6% chance of hitting the 0,5,6,7 death valley. Rood's 58/20 improves the chances of avoiding death valley to 8.3%. I spent the afternoon brewing to try to get the mix right. Finally I went 58/21 because I wanted more blue sources to play through disruption. 58/13 has a 15.1% chance of having no blue sources in the opening draw. 58/14 has a 12.7% chances at the auto-mull and 58/15 has a 10.7% chance. When you throw 1 blue source hands into consideration 58/13 has a 50.3% chance at having less than 2 blue sources in the opening hand, 58/14 is at 45.6% and 58/15 is at 41.1%.

I decided to cut 1 of the Mishra's alongside an Island from my 23 land build and went with 3 Mishra's Factory, 2 Faerie Conclave and 3 Wastelands alongside 8 fetches, 3 Volcanic Islands and 2 Islands. This gave me the best chances to both avoid a mulligan and survive an early wasteland or fetch being stifled.

The other change was to main list Spell Snares for their synergy with Standstill. I haven't played more than 1 Spell Snare main list since CounterTop went out of style in everything but Miracles and I was skeptical but again, I decided to bow to the guy who had played Ur Dreadstill to the best finishes in diverse metas. I put 2 Spell Snares main to give it a shot. I replaced the REB's to make that happen.

Here's what I played:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Treasure Cruise

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

SB

2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 vs Mono-Red Burn (no fetches) 2-1

A fairly tight match was won by a ton of counters fueled by Standstill and Treasure Cruise. He won game 1 at 4 life, I won game 2 at 4 life and game 3 at 2 life. He drew lands his last two draws in game 3 with me beating him down with a Mishra's and a Faerie Conclave and sitting dead with no counters in hand. No Dreadnought in this match at all. I had the nought in hand all 3 games but couldn't draw a Stifle for my life despite resolving ALL of my Standstills and Treasure Cruises in game 2. I actually don't want to see Stifle against Mono-Red Burn unless I have a nought but I was staring at the big beasty all 3 games thinking that resolving him would make things much easier. Spell Snare was a big deal in the match, stopping an Eidolon of the Great Revel that probably kills me in game 2 and a Price of Progress that definitely would have done the trick in game 3. He beat me game 1 by resolving a PoP after I had Forced one in the same turn. Just held both of them until he had 4 lands and I had only 3 cards in hand and went for it. He did it main phase on his turn to keep me from seeing another card.

Round 2 vs Death and Taxes 0-2

Nothing tight about this one. He had Vial in his opening hand both games and I couldn't bring myself to mull the game 2 hand even though I didn't have Force of Will or Daze. It was beautiful, with a bolt, a sweeper, a Brainstorm, Delver and a Mishra's and a fetch. The vial killed me, and I should have known that was going to happen after getting run over in a battle of attrition in game 1. I made the mistake of assuming the Brainstorm would help me find one of the 2 Pithing Needles or 2 Engineered Explosives I had in the list if he played turn 1 vial again. If he had Mother of Runes as his opening play both games I win the match going away and if he had vial I lose it the same way. Live and learn and hope to get luckier and make better mull decisions next time.

I didn't tune in Spell Pierce game 2 on the play because vial and Swords to Plowshares were the only thing it was going to stop and I wanted the Pithing Needles, Engineered Explosives and 2 sweepers. I decided just to roll with the Dazes since I was on the play and they stopped Mother of Runes and vial. I probably should have tuned dreadnought out game 2 alongside at least 2 of the Stifles but I took out 3 Standstill and 2 Gitaxian Probes instead. I was worried about durdling around too much against him when I really should have been trying to get a Landstill top position and grind him down. Next time I face D&T on the play game 2 it is going to be -3 Dreadnought, -3 Stifle, -2 Probe, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Rough // Tumble, +1 Pyroclasm (didn't tune this against him because I saw both Serra Avenger and Brimaz game 1), +2 Pithing Needle and +1 Engineered Explosives.

Round 3 vs Burn with fetches 2-0

Game 1 I had a turn 2 dreadnought that he couldn't answer and game 2 I countered every other spell he cast and he just couldn't get there before a succession of Delvers and Mishra's wore him down. I finished him with a Fire // Ice and a bolt along about turn 7 and it was a satisfying way to beat the list. He played off of 1 land for the entire game 2 when I stifled his 2nd turn fetch. I had another stifle in hand plus a wasteland from about turn 4 on and I knew he wasn't going to resolve anything unless he drew one of his basic mountains of which I think he didn't run a whole lot.

Round 4 vs Ur Delver 2-1

I knew he was playing something aggro because he had matched up against my round 3 opponent in the opening round and I looked up to see the two of them concluding their match after about 15 minutes. Somebody else asked them how it had gone and they said 2-1. I assumed I was facing my 3rd Burn list of the night but he won the roll, fetched a Volcanic Island and played Monastery Swiftspear. It was close but he was on the play and he won it without seeing anything from me that suggested anything but Ur Landstill. Game 2 I dropped a fetch and then fetched after his opening Delver play, tap for red, bolt the delver, Stiflenought on my turn and over. He mentioned that he hadn't seen Stiflenought since 2011 at an SCG. I took that as a sign that he probably didn't have much against artifacts in his SB.

Game 3 was a back and forth where he kept dropping threats and I kept answering them. Finally it came down to dreadnought makes swiftspear look puny. The last turn of the game I had a tapped out dreadnought with him at 7 and he dropped a swiftspear and started counting, finally telling me that he could do 11 of the 16 damage he needed and conceding. I was holding Fire // Ice and he wasn't going to win that turn unless he had an REB or Pyroblast for the icing of his swiftspear.

The list played really well I think. The loss to D&T was part luck and part weak decisions on sideboarding and mulling for game 2. I didn't feel like I got a lot of bang for the buck out of the probes but the spell snares were great. Not sure what I'm going to do with the lands and probes distribution but I am definitely keeping 2 snares main list for now.

[Tea]

What's the general reasoning for running Faerie Conclave over Mutavault?

[FoolofaTook]

What's the general reasoning for running Faerie Conclave over Mutavault?

Taps for blue and trades with Delver, Vendilion Clique and Flickerwisp. Mishra's Factory is just better than Mutavault and Faerie Conclave is better in a list running majority blue spells. I would play Mutavault over Mishra's in Ub Faerie Landstill, probably not any other Landstill list.

[HammafistRoob]

Is there a possibility to build a deck around dreadnought in a more controlish way?
Snapcaster Mage comes in my mind as it flashbbacks stifle if needed and other sweet stuff because we always need counterbackup the turn we 'go off'.
What about a hardcore snapcaster-controldeck with a quick dreadnought finish?
I know that this approach is completely different than the rug tempoish list above, but in my opinion there are many ways to construct a nice arrangement around dreadnought.

What about something like this? (Untested so far but i will the next few days)

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory

Sb:

x
x
x
x
x
x
x
2x Krosan Grip

Looks a it like Lam Phans UR Standstilldeck featuring dreadnought as an altrnative and fast killcondition.
Needs less Dreadnought and more Trinket Mage.

[FoolofaTook]

Dreadstill is primed for a reboot with Manifest as an option and Standstill returning to it's position as best draw 3. Is this thread primarily for the U[g][r] variants or can any list be posted? Not sure whether splitting the Dreadstill community into multiple threads is better or not. It makes sense to have all lists with Stiflenought/Standstill package in the same place I think.

[EunB]

Dreadstill is primed for a reboot with Manifest as an option and Standstill returning to it's position as best draw 3. Is this thread primarily for the U[g][r] variants or can any list be posted? Not sure whether splitting the Dreadstill community into multiple threads is better or not. It makes sense to have all lists with Stiflenought/Standstill package in the same place I think.

On the contrary now that Miracles is strengthened and Shardless / BUG Delver have returned abrupt decay is going to again be a huge pain in the butt. A meta full of Lightning and Forked Bolts was perfect for a 12/12 trampler. Now? Not so much unfortunately.

[FoolofaTook]

On the contrary now that Miracles is strengthened and Shardless / BUG Delver have returned abrupt decay is going to again be a huge pain in the butt. A meta full of Lightning and Forked Bolts was perfect for a 12/12 trampler. Now? Not so much unfortunately.

Dreadstill should be able to manage the Miracles matchup as well as anybody. BUG Delver could be problematic but we also gained a good option in Mastery of the Unseen. I think there's a really good Uwx Dreadstill build out there right now. It's just a question of finding the right mix.

[FoolofaTook]

First brew with Mastery of the Unseen with some undecideds and questions.

[Creatures]

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Misthollow Griffin
4 Mishra's Factory

[Other Combo Permanents]

2 Mastery of the Unseen
0-2 Cloudform
0-1 Academy Ruins

[Counters/Disruption]

3-4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

[Removal]

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

[Selection/Draw]

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
0-2 Sensei's Divining Top

[Mana Lands]

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

I'm looking at a 15/8 split between Mana Lands and Lands that have a significant other effect. The 4 Mishra's Factory are ironclad, the other 4 non-colored could be 3 Wastelands and an Academy Ruins or 4 Wastelands. The Academy Ruins would be to exploit the synergy with Engineered Explosives. Other synergies it has in the list are basically magical Christmas-land. I have an Underground Sea in the list to make explosives at 3 a real possibility. This is assuming maybe a black splash in the sideboard also for Engineered Plague or Cabal Therapy. The Underground Sea could easily become a Tropical Island and the black fetches green fetches if something else, like Krosan Grip, turned out to be a better small splash in this meta.

I've got 2 Misdirection main list because Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares are both going to be problematic and countering them isn't going to be possible most of the time. The 2 Misdirection will also be Force 5 and 6 for counter wars in the heavily blue meta. I have 1 Misthollow Griffin in the list because it thwarts both Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares and it can be easily pitched to Force of Will or Misdirection. It's still card disadvantage in the short-term but you get another extended card in your arsenal for the rest of the game, just not one that you can again pitch.

On the split numbers I just haven't decided yet.

Is Cloudform good enough to see play at 3cc? Flying, hexproof 2/2 seems like a decent mid-game asset even if it's not a nought that can flip for 1. Good enough?

Is Sensei's Divining Top a good play for the synergy with Mastery of the Unseen? It's really good with Standstill also but is it good enough in this list?

Those two are probably one or the other and I don't know which although I'm leaning top because it's top.

4th Wasteland vs Academy Ruins? I can see arguments both directions.

The 3 card suite in 2 Misdirection and 1 Misthollow Griffin is experimental. It could be 1 Misdirection and 2 Misthollow Griffins or it could be get the heck out of the list and put in more traditional counters instead. Not sure at all how that is going to go, although I've already seen Misthollow Griffin make Miracles a bit unhappy and I'm hoping it does the same to Stoneblade. I also once, just once, want to Misdirect a hymn back to it's owner, have him Force the Misdirect and then Daze the Force. I can die happy if that happens just one in my life. Magical Christmas-land...

[Rood]

The only reason I'd go UW is for Hushwing Griffon. Flash, good with standstill and enables noughts quick.

[FoolofaTook]

The only reason I'd go UW is for Hushwing Griffon. Flash, good with standstill and enables noughts quick.

You don't like Mastery of the Unseen as an enabler? It just seems so good given that it spits outs 2/2's and also enables broken plays with dreadnought. I can see Hushwing Griff as more disruption for SFM and Elves, so I guess I could see it. The testing I've done against Miracles has Mastery of the Unseen as a card they don't like to see. It makes them go get it with Council's Judgement or try to get a Venser through Daze. Once MoS is in play you just hold your Stifles for Miracle triggers and it makes their game entirely different. They rely on StP and Terminus to manage creatures for them and neither card manages Mastery of the Unseen.

I guess I'm more focused on Miracles at this point than is healthy given that Miracles is played every week in my meta. It's the list you have to beat alongside Stoneblade.

[hurlman81]

You don't like Mastery of the Unseen as an enabler? It just seems so good given that it spits outs 2/2's and also enables broken plays with dreadnought. I can see Hushwing Griff as more disruption for SFM and Elves, so I guess I could see it. The testing I've done against Miracles has Mastery of the Unseen as a card they don't like to see. It makes them go get it with Council's Judgement or try to get a Venser through Daze. Once MoS is in play you just hold your Stifles for Miracle triggers and it makes their game entirely different. They rely on StP and Terminus to manage creatures for them and neither card manages Mastery of the Unseen.

I guess I'm more focused on Miracles at this point than is healthy given that Miracles is played every week in my meta. It's the list you have to beat alongside Stoneblade.

So I was looking at Athreos, God of Passage and cloudform in my deck I would love a UWG with a black splash for athreos.

[btm10]

You don't like Mastery of the Unseen as an enabler? It just seems so good given that it spits outs 2/2's and also enables broken plays with dreadnought. I can see Hushwing Griff as more disruption for SFM and Elves, so I guess I could see it. The testing I've done against Miracles has Mastery of the Unseen as a card they don't like to see. It makes them go get it with Council's Judgement or try to get a Venser through Daze. Once MoS is in play you just hold your Stifles for Miracle triggers and it makes their game entirely different. They rely on StP and Terminus to manage creatures for them and neither card manages Mastery of the Unseen.

I guess I'm more focused on Miracles at this point than is healthy given that Miracles is played every week in my meta. It's the list you have to beat alongside Stoneblade.

I feel like you'd probably want Reality Shift more than the other Manifest enablers because it does more than just manifest cards. Almost any creature you're going to be using Shift on is going to fit into one of three categories:

1. Is bigger or harder to answer than a vanilla 2/2
2. Has a relevant ability that gets in your way and keeping it the same size or growing it is irrelevant (Thalia, Deathrite Shaman)
3. Is your own creature, giving you a partial answer to things like Swords or Abrupt Decay or as an enabler for Dreadnought.

[pandaman]

My quest for a perfect 75 was kind of in a standstill until now. I knew the deck was really good, but I had the feeling that some microscopical change might just unlock something even better. I went deep in to my brainstorming, tried to figure out different configurations and eventually found it…and came back to almost where I was. Just as I thought I would.

My deck building philosophy always starts from the fact that it is not just a 60 card deck plus a 15 card sideboard, but a 75 card unit that has in it, exactly 60 cards for ’each’ matchup. No less and preferably no more either. This is sometimes a big challenge to actually achieve, so decks that can’t acomplish that, usually leave me unsatisfied.

I think I might have found, if not perfect, at least a very solid core for this deck, so I try to cut my thought process in to smaller pieces, so that it might be easier to understand.

Let’s start with the lands. For years, I was fixed with the idea that this deck runs with 20 lands and that’s it. A tempo deck with Mishra’s Factories AND Wastelands couldn’t possibly run with less for sure. I was also pretty sure that you would have to choose which one of those two was your 4-off, and the other one would then get 2-3 slots. Just judging by my own experience, 13 coloured sources felt most of the time enough. It has been actually more often, that I have to mulligan a 0-lander, than that I have to mulligan a hand with, lets say 2 colorless sources. So what actually unlocked my thinking, was the realization that adding another colorless land wouldn’t actually hurt the manabase on the sense that most of the time a hand without a colored source, would still be mulligan, as it always had been. Playing with 21 land on the other hand, gives you quite the genius boarding options (I come to that a bit later), and overal just make the deck flow in a better way in most of the game ones, where you are trying to figure out, which of the many possible plans is the right one for each matchup.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
7 Fetch lands
6 Fetchable lands
From now on, this will be my manabase. Depending on the flex slots, the fetchable lands would be either 4 Volcanics + 2 Islands, or my classical 3-2-1 (Volcanic-Island-Mountain).

Then comes the no-brainer selections. These are the ones that I would never cut from the list, unless I’m brewing something totally new for fun.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
The consistency is the key here. I understand the logic behind cutting maybe one Dreadnought or one Standstill, but then again, you will see them that much less often, which can be crucial at times. After all, you are playing f*cking DreadStill, so you anyway need to have some balls to begin with.

After those, you will probably need 2 additional cards to cheat the mighty 12/12 on the battlefield. My choice in here has always been Trickbind, and I obviously feel that it is superior to anything else. Here’s a fact: For years, the metagame has been filled with blue. Trickbind is great against blue, hence my selection.

The main deck is now missing 9 cards, but let me start by talking about 8 of them. These are, what I would probably call the flex slots. You will most likely need 4 or 6 Soft counters, 2 pieces of additional creature removal and 2 or 0 utilily cards or additional draw spells. Preferably at least 6 of these 8 should be instants or sorceries, to maintain at least a decent Delver flip ratio. Soft counters of choice are Daze and Spell Pierce, naturally. You could go with just 4 Daze, have 4-2 split, or my oldschool version of 3-3 split. I think any of those would be okay, if you keep in mind to fix the holes that you leave here, by adding something of similar role to your sideboard. Additional removal could be anything from Lavamancers to Forked Bolt or even Sudden Shock. Adding two Snapcaster Mages to utility slots, opens up some interesting sideboard options, but to be honest with you all, I would just go with the 6 counters and 2 removal spells. In those 2 utility slots, you dirty delve lovers should also find the place for your Treasure Cruises, but I just simply don’t feel the need for that myself.

So, one slot remains, and let me just take a moment to advocate, how great that 1-off Misdirection is. It’s versatile in almost any matchup and it comes always as surprise. I can’t possibly understand why you wouldn’t want to play it. It also gets even better against all those random stuff, that people will just keep playing in tournaments, because they want to have fun. I played it before Decay came and loved it, and even if Decay is now underplayed, I still think it is just too good to pass.

So, let’s build the bridge in the storyline to the sideboard and start of by saying, if Misdirection is so great, why not put another one on the sideboard. And that is exactly what I would always do. This is also an easy place to explain my new found philosophy in boarding. Most of the matches you’ll play, you’ll probably be fine with just 20 lands in the deck. So in all of these matchups, I’ll start by examining which of the two colorless lands is good and which one is less good. Then I ask myself, is Misdirection great in this matchup? If the answer is yes, Misdirection will simply replace the land. If the answer is no, then you’ll take out both the land and the Misdirection, and replace them with other cards. (There are some exceptions of matchups, where you could want to keep 21 lands after boarding, mostly when you don’t have a streamlined plan that you are trying to execute. In those matches, just cutting one of the less good cards will have to do, or then just leaving in the 1 Misdirection for funsies.)

By having a deck full of 4-offs and 2-offs, it becomes very tempting to fill your sideboard with different 2-offs too. And it is actually a very good idea too. You can be versatile and have answers to many different things, and boarding becomes extremely easy. The deck wil by absolute have an even number of useless cards (discounting this Misdirection-Land swap plan), and your sideboard will by definition, if you have built it correctly, have the same amount of good cards to bring in. This is my goal in a nutshell. To have 75 cards, of which I can create a 60 cards deck for each matchup. In a way, post board games with this deck are usually quite a streamlined and you have clear plan of what you need to do to win. There is not much of card selection, so I very much don’t like the way of sideboarding where you shave some copies of each card to make room for your better cards. If a card is good, it should earn it’s full potential for the consistency reasons. If it’s bad or probably even mediocre, 0 copies are needed.

This same method works the same way with asideboard, that put in numbers would look like this: 3-3-3-3-2-Misdirection. For example, if I put it in context, my old sideboard would now look like this:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Misdirection
This configuration is solid too, but it becomes harder to choose the right cards and you will probably be missing some kind of hate, like me for example in here, am totally missing gravehate.

But well, I’m not yet at the place, where I could say that I have found the perfect sideboard, but I think I’m getting there. (Okay, there is no such thing as perfect, but I’m aiming to get close and have versatile sideboard for a developed metagame) And maybe opening the thought process behind the core of the deck, might be helpful for some new players too. Or maybe I just had to open it up for myself too, it’s Christmas anyways so I thought I might share a lengthly post.

I remind everyone, that this is my way of doing things with this deck and while they have proven to work with me and with some others, other ways of building the deck might be as correct as this one is.

Also, I'm perfectly fine with playing with a preboarded deck in an event that I know is full of certain kind of decks, but for the easier reading, I will exclude those. The same concept would still apply though, having a 75, not a 60.

Happy holidays to you all!



Edit. I realized it might be helpful to have my current list as reference.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Trickbind
1 Misdirection

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

SB:
1 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grim Lavamancer
Great post Yan. I like your theorising. You've rekindled my interest. I'm going to test Dreadstill some more. Australian Eternal Masters is coming up and I'm looking for a deck. This could be it!

[Yan]

Great post Yan. I like your theorising. You've rekindled my interest. I'm going to test Dreadstill some more. Australian Eternal Masters is coming up and I'm looking for a deck. This could be it!

Thanks! I'm glad that someone got something out of it :). I tried a lot more controlling version of the Standstill spectrum last Sunday and top 8ed, you might want to check up my mini report on the Ur Landstill thread (new and development decks section). I applied pretty much the same theories in deck building and sideboarding, except this time there was no need for Misdirection so my "land-swap-slot" was a Crucible (swapping the land out only in grindy matchups, where I would want that Crucible). I'm not quite sure if that deck is as good as this, but it was a fun choice for a change.

[pandaman]

Yan, the only concern I have is that you don't have access to Explosives for three in your list. I find that immensely useful. I usually split my lands 2 Island 1 Mountain 3 Volcanic Island 1 Tropical Island for that purpose. What do you think?

[Yan]

Yan, the only concern I have is that you don't have access to Explosives for three in your list. I find that immensely useful. I usually split my lands 2 Island 1 Mountain 3 Volcanic Island 1 Tropical Island for that purpose. What do you think?

Doable I guess. I don't usually feel the need for the 3rd color though, as there is not really anything at 3 mana that you can't answer with some other means. Five mana in total is also a lot to use for a single removal. On the other hand, that off color dual can sometimes mean that you get wasted out of red. Are we now talking about DreadStill or Landstill though? And what 3 drops are you having problems against? In my experience, the third color brings more inconsistencies and mana skrews (with the help from opponent) than usefulness. But sure, all this is kind of micro managing and the profits of either sides come up very rarely, so I wouldn't judge anyone for running the off color dual.

[pandaman]

The only thing that deals with TNN maindeck are FoW and Misdirection (StP or Decay onto it). Leaving aside just trampling over it, of course. Sideboard only REB deals with it, and that's on the stack. If they sneak it through you can be in trouble. 3CMC EE is nice there and in other situations too.

[Yan]

The only thing that deals with TNN maindeck are FoW and Misdirection (StP or Decay onto it). Leaving aside just trampling over it, of course. Sideboard only REB deals with it, and that's on the stack. If they sneak it through you can be in trouble. 3CMC EE is nice there and in other situations too.

So that's already 9 cards main deck that "deals" with it (13 if you count Dazes too!). I think it sounds like plenty. Not to mention that all of our creatures just totally ignore it, Delver flying, Dreadnought trampling and Lavamancer shooting face. TNN is absolutely NOT the problem. It only becomes a problem when equipped with something, which makes the equipments problematic, not TNN itself. I was really trying to figure out other 3-drops that would cause an actual problem but there just aren't any. Usually it feels just too slow to use EE against 3-drops and you will pretty much never gain any card advantage from it. I think the hardest part of this deck is to asses your role in each matchup. G1 you are usually the tempo deck, but after boarding you really have to have a clear idea what you are trying to do and what you actually can do. Some decks, like Jund for example, you just can't try to control, so it's better to push all in and try to get a bit lucky. Then there are decks like Miracles, where it is fairly easy to just control the game and play it safely.

[pandaman]

I guess I just like that 3CMC option. And I forgot about Daze, sorry. I don't find it gets you into trouble that often, but I'll keep a note from now on when the Trop pops up and see what ends up happening.

[Yan]

I guess I just like that 3CMC option. And I forgot about Daze, sorry. I don't find it gets you into trouble that often, but I'll keep a note from now on when the Trop pops up and see what ends up happening.

Good idea :) I've been basically doing that in reverse, but I can't recall a moment in recent history where I wished I had that Tropical to go with EE. Tropical does open up an option for boarding Ancient Grudge, which does sound tempting. However, I do remember those times when Maverick was very popular and against double Knights, EE at 3 is very good.

[pandaman]

How's your sideboarding document been developing lately, Yan? I can see with your new list there would need to be some slight changes.

[Yan]

Let's just say that it has changed :D I can send the updated one to you.

edit. should be in your mail box, if your e-mail hasn't changed since the last time :)

[pandaman]

Also, I'm sad there hasn't been more DreadStill in Top 8's for recent months. I think we should get back to restoring the deck to glory!

[pandaman]

We had a "Big Legacy" tournament in Brisbane today and I put my mate on my UR Dreadstill deck because he we couldn't get the cards for Sneak 'n Show (his preferred deck) together in time.

2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Standstill
1 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm

4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard (15)

1 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grim Lavamancer

He ran 3-1-1 making Top 8, but lost to a misplay in the first elimination round. Talking to him about it, he felt that if he knew how to play it better he would have won both the matches he lost (i.e. he made many misplays). But that just goes to show the power of the deck. He said the standout cards were Misdirection and Pithing Needle, and commented that he could have used the ability to cast Engineered Explosives for three colours a few times (Lili and TNN).

Who else is still playing the deck?

[FoolofaTook]

It's a heavy white meta where I play these days and so Dreadstill is on the bench. I think you have to look at UB(x) these days as a possibility. You have to be able to get Swords to Plowshares and Council's Judgement out of the opponent's hand before resolving Dreadnought. Some UW lists are playing Detention Sphere as a removal option also and it's very good against dreadnought.

I'd also be reluctant to go to just 13 blue sources these days. There's a lot of BUG and D&T in the meta and wastelands are back in vogue.

[LarsLeif]

I think that the most viable Dreadnought decks right now are the ones playing CB/Top and Cloudform. Such decks are a lot stronger vs removal and can grind better etc. I don't have an exact list but I think that the shell for those decks is pretty interesting to brew with.

[FoolofaTook]

I think that the most viable Dreadnought decks right now are the ones playing CB/Top and Cloudform. Such decks are a lot stronger vs removal and can grind better etc. I don't have an exact list but I think that the shell for those decks is pretty interesting to brew with.

That's how Dreadstill used to run in its heyday in 2008. CounterTop to stop StP. It might be the way to go now but that means no Delver.

[LarsLeif]

Well it's not really about stopping StP, Cloudform does that already, it's more about stopping decay actually, as that card really made the old CB/Dreadnought decks pretty obsolete. A cloudformed dreadnought is a much more difficult threat to deal with for decay decks. But yes, that CB is very good versus tundra decks is also a nice thing.


I've seen some interesting builds of Cloudform decks that I think has potential, I have no clue wether they are good enough honestly, but I think it's worth brining up for consideration.

[FoolofaTook]

I think the real problem with running CounterTop in this is that in 2008 4 Brainstorms and 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top was excellent consistency for the format. In 2015 it's mediocre. Not bad but definitely not as good as some of the consistency options available. The blue shell even cannibalizes itself in some ways.

[Hopo]

I think the real problem with running CounterTop in this is that in 2008 4 Brainstorms and 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top was excellent consistency for the format. In 2015 it's mediocre. Not bad but definitely not as good as some of the consistency options available. The blue shell even cannibalizes itself in some ways.

The real problem is Abrupt Decay, no questions. Dreadstill started to stumble once Krosan Grip got printed and Abrupt Decay only made things worse.

By playing Stiflenought and Force of Will you are very much behind in cards by default. This requires some form of card advantage. Your realistic options are pretty much Standstill, Dig Through Time, Countertop and Dark Confidant. I even did great with Kira before Decay but it's less impressive nowadays.

[pandaman]

Thing is, the deck crushes Miracles. Which is more the pity.

[LarsLeif]

I think that the deck could be built to be very consistent, so I don't really follow the 2008-reference, but I think that the traditional Stifle version is too weak vs decay. Standstill is nice though.

I sincerely doubt that anyone has done excessive testing with this deck vs a good miracle pilot with a good build in order to have sufficient data to say that this deck crushes miracles for sure, but I could of course be wrong about that.

[FoolofaTook]

Thing is, the deck crushes Miracles. Which is more the pity.

Miracles is an ok matchup not a great one in my experience. Once we resolve Dreadnought they still have the same removal suite and the odds are against us having another Stifle in hand to stop the Miracle trigger on Terminus. Stopping them from spinning the top endlessly with fetches is a great thing but then we're using action to do that since noughts become dead in hand without Stifle and Trickbind in the lists that play it.

Probably the way to crush Miracles, really be dominant against it, is to use the Dreadstill shell rotated to BUG with Tarmogoyf replacing Phyrexian Dreadnought and Abrupt Decay replacing Lightning Bolt. That's within a half dozen cards of BUG Delver which has a pretty good Miracles matchup.

[pandaman]

In the Miracles match, you board out Dreadnought and Lavamancer. You become the control deck, pinging for damage with only one creature per turn (either Delver or Factory). You have Pithing Needle for Top and EE for CB or Angels. You have more counterspells than they do. You have a card advantage engine where they don't (be careful of their Flash creatures in response to Standstill). If you look back over the reports in this thread I don't believe there is a single loss to Miracles.

[Yan]

Good to hear positive results, even more when it's someone who isn't necessarily familiar with the deck. It just means that there really is power behind it. I haven't put Dreadstill together in a while because I'm testing other things for GP Lille. Pandaman's list looks very familiar ;) I would still want that basic mountain though, but that's just a preference and I can totally understand the desire for an off color dual land.

Miracles is definitely a good match up, if you know how to board and how it needs to be played out (exactly how pandaman described). I have done very excessive testing and faced it many times in tournaments too (0 tournament play losses) and I believe syfilisix has done even more testing than me and would describe the match as "what a joke." (The Joe Losset Miracles build with legends is a bit harder actually, but the more popular euro build is the one I'm talking about) I don't even think that BUG delver have such a good match against Miracles, as they lack the exact tools that are good for Dreadstill in that match, so I don't understand the point in trying to make the deck more like BUG Delver. ...well, I also don't understand why we have to bring #BlueShell in to the deck discussion :P So I just remain puzzled and amused :)

Cloudform is something I haven't honestly tested, so I can't say if it's good enough. My gut feeling says that it would require too much set up. So I would stay with the more versatile Misdirection, but I also probably just have an unhealthy amount of love towards that card :D But I should probably just get a set of those Cloudforms and test it out. With them and Counterbalance, you would probably have to move away from the delver/manlands and Standstill though, there is just not enough space for all that.

[pandaman]

Pandaman's list is actually Yan's list, all 75 cards of it. My mate said he loved it so much he's buying it!

I played the same list tonight, but only went 2-2.

R1 v Storm: Win 2-1

G1 I start on the draw and opp. takes a mull to 6. I manage to get him to 8 before he's able to Past in Flames loop a Tendrils kill.

G2 I start on the play and do a lot of countering of cantrips, Stifling of lands, and Wastelanding of lands, all the while beating with a Delver. A Lightning Bolt finishes it.

G3 I'm back on the draw and opp. again takes a mull to 6. This time, I get a T3 Dreadnought, swing for 12 putting him on next turn lethal, and Wastelanding one his three lands, leaving him with Petal, Volc, Island. On his turn he casts Dark Ritual off Lotus Petal. I Daze, he pays, then I Flusterstorm the Ritual creating two copies he can't pay for. But he Flusterstorms back, saying that he creates THREE copies and targets... waaaaaaait, I say, put your Storm trigger on the stack so I can Stifle it. Which I do, and 'Nought finishes the job the next turn with him unable to continue to combo due to lack of mana.

Note: I MISBOARDED here. I should have taken out 2 Lavamancer, 4 Bolt, a Misdirection, and a Factory for 2 Flusterstorm, 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Engineered Explosives, but instead I left Bolts in. EE would have been useful at 0 for his Lotus Petals/LEDs.

R2 v Infect: Win 1-0

G1 is very grindy. I open Volcanic into Lavamancer then a Mishra's Factory into Standstill, which is an amazing start against Infect. He is soon forced to crack my Standstill when I Lavamancer his Inkmoth Nexus, and from then on the constant cycle of forcing him to defend his creatures against Lavamancer/Bolt begins, with me cracking in for a few points of damage here and there. Eventually, that's the way it finishes, me grinding it out a point or two at a time.

G2 I open a TRIPLE Lavamancer hand. I let the first one get Dazed but resolve the second and third. However, he's also drawing all his Inkmoth Nexus, which are the only creature in the deck that really gives me trouble. However, the grind begins again, and he's pinging for the occasional poison damage and me the occasional damage. I'm winning the race when time is called, giving him three turns to kill me. He does nothing his first two turns, but neither do I because I won the first game and am sitting on double active Lavamancer in play and Trickbind, Stifle, FoW, Pierce, and Misdirection in hand. I Trickbind one of his Inkmoths on his last turn and he realises he can't kill me.

R2 v RUG Delver: Loss 1-2.

G1 I'm on the play with a double Spell Pierce Standstill hand. I Spell Pierce a Ponder off a Volcanic Island on T1 because I think he's on Storm. Daze. Nope, not storm. I misplay by not ramming a Standstill on T2 and making him let me draw three cards for his Mongoose, which he gets through and which ultimately gets there.

G2 I'm again on the play, but have the option of T2 Nought with Force protection or waiting until T3 for another Volc to have T3 Nought with Force and Pyroblast protection. I opt for the latter, and he resolves a couple of Geese I don't care about because I'm about to get a 12/12 trampler. I go for it, he Brainstorms, but I Pyroblast it, figuring he's probably got nothing. He hasn't, it resolves, and it turns out he didn't realise that Nought tramples... Game over man, game over.

G3 I'm on the draw, and although we battle back and forward he eventually gets on the offensive with a Mongoose while using Ancient Grudge, flashback Ancient Grudge, and Stifle to stymie my attempts to chump block the thing with one of my THREE Mishra's Factories. I eventually kill it, but he has drawn a Tarmogoyf and I haven't drawn anything.

Note: I MISBOARDED here. I left Bolt in, but I should have taken it out, it's useless. You just need creatures to chump block his Delvers and Gooses and so I should have gone -2 Lavamancer -4 Bolt -1 Misdirection -1 Factory for +4 REB effects +2 Flusterstorm +2 EE. EE would have been incredible useful at 1 on Goose or 2 on Goyf.

I think the misboarding probably lost me the game. I would much rather have been looking at EEs or Flusterstorms than Bolts in G3, which I was.

Round 4 v Mono U OmniTell: Loss 1-2

G1 I get it on with a Turn 1 Delver blind flipped on T3. He goes for a Show and Tell which I counter (using my Misdirection to redirect the top copy of his Flusterstorm on the stack onto his own Show and Tell), but he manages a second that I can't stop. He's on 1 life. He puts in Emrakul, I put in Standstill (I thought that I might as well because if he puts in Omniscience I get to draw three cards when he tries to cast something and I might find a Bolt). My turn, I draw a Brainstorm. I Brainstorm, cracking my own Standstill, to find a Bolt for the win. He has a FoW but can't use it because he's at 1.'

Note: I tried to be tricky and didn't flip Delver to the Spell Pierce I saw on T2. I should have flipped it. Then all the garbage about him being on one life and resolving his second SnT would have been irrelevant because he'd have been dead.

-2 Lavamancer -4 Bolt -1 Wasteland +4 REB effects +2 Flusterstorm +1 Misdirection

G2 He gets Boseiju into Show and Tell with one mana open on Turn 3. He puts in Omniscience, while I put in a second Delver. He goes for Dig Through Time. "Good!" I think, he hasn't got the combo yet. I Pierce the Dig. He plays a second Dig. I Force the second Dig. He plays Flusterstorm all over my counterspells and wins...

G3 I open a very disruptive hand but with no pressure. I keep it, countering his cantrips, but end up exhausted and he resolves a SnT for Emrakul and wins.

Note: I think I played G3 incorrectly. I think I should have shipped my 7 to look for an opening hand with: (1) Delver; (2) Nought with the possibility to find a Stifle; or (3) Mishra's Factory. Just any pressure, really. I'm not sure keeping a heavy controlling hand relying on drawing into pressure is a good idea.

I feel like both the matchups I lost are very winnable, and had I played and boarded better I would have given myself a much better chance. Will continue to playtest.

[pandaman]

Yan, about boarding for Infect. I know you like to leave Pithing Needle out, but to me it seemed as if it would have been incredibly useful on Inkmoth Nexus. It's their best card against us (Lavamancer and Bolt keep the other creatures in check). Of course, you need to figure out two more cards to take out, which is difficult.

I boarded like this:

-2 Dreadnought
-4 Delver
-1 Factory
+4 REB effects
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Misdirection

I went much more controlling than I know you like to. I got away with it because of the triple Lavamancer opener in G2, but I'm wondering if my boarding out Delver may have cost me in the long run by leaving me unable to block Inkmoth. The counter-argument is, of course, that if I had found a Pithing Needle on Inkmoth then they only have 8 creatures you need to worry about. I probably overboarded on blasts, although their unblockable infect guy is Blue and they do pack a lot of permission post-board.

[Yan]

Pandaman's list is actually Yan's list, all 75 cards of it. My mate said he loved it so much he's buying it!



Round 4 v Mono U OmniTell: Loss 1-2

G1 I get it on with a Turn 1 Delver blind flipped on T3. He goes for a Show and Tell which I counter (using my Misdirection to redirect the top copy of his Flusterstorm on the stack onto his own Show and Tell), but he manages a second that I can't stop. He's on 1 life. He puts in Emrakul, I put in Standstill (I thought that I might as well because if he puts in Omniscience I get to draw three cards when he tries to cast something and I might find a Bolt). My turn, I draw a Brainstorm. I Brainstorm, cracking my own Standstill, to find a Bolt for the win. He has a FoW but can't use it because he's at 1.'

Note: I tried to be tricky and didn't flip Delver to the Spell Pierce I saw on T2. I should have flipped it. Then all the garbage about him being on one life and resolving his second SnT would have been irrelevant because he'd have been dead.

-2 Lavamancer -4 Bolt -1 Wasteland +4 REB effects +2 Flusterstorm +1 Misdirection

G2 He gets Boseiju into Show and Tell with one mana open on Turn 3. He puts in Omniscience, while I put in a second Delver. He goes for Dig Through Time. "Good!" I think, he hasn't got the combo yet. I Pierce the Dig. He plays a second Dig. I Force the second Dig. He plays Flusterstorm all over my counterspells and wins...

G3 I open a very disruptive hand but with no pressure. I keep it, countering his cantrips, but end up exhausted and he resolves a SnT for Emrakul and wins.

Note: I think I played G3 incorrectly. I think I should have shipped my 7 to look for an opening hand with: (1) Delver; (2) Nought with the possibility to find a Stifle; or (3) Mishra's Factory. Just any pressure, really. I'm not sure keeping a heavy controlling hand relying on drawing into pressure is a good idea.

I feel like both the matchups I lost are very winnable, and had I played and boarded better I would have given myself a much better chance. Will continue to playtest.


Heh, I guess that's true :)

The Infect match is a bit tricky. I usually like to be on the tempo side against most of the combo decks, so I really like the clock you get from Delver. Pithing Needle is the card I'm very undecided in this match. I agree that it's great, but I just can't figure out where to fit it and still be pressuring the Infect player. Now the removal is in parity with their threads; 12 removal against their 12 threats. So in theory it should be fine by filling the gaps with counterspells, but this is really a close call and sometimes your way is definitely the right way to go. But for your idea, I would probably take out also Trickbinds and make room for the Needles, 4 Stifle is enough to support 2 Dreadnoughts.

For the OmniTell matchup, I would probably switch the 4th Mishra to SB and put Wasteland in. Now that they run 2-3 Boseiju, it's pretty much a necessity to find a Wasteland in time.

Man, just reading this thread after a while, makes me want to go back to slinging some 12/12's! :D Every piece of good luck to your friend too in his future battles!

EDIT. Your other notes about misboarding are all just spot on and I'm not all that surprised that you saw already how they affected the outcome of the game play already in one match.

[bryanzoll]

Glad to see all the activity on this thread again!

I still have a person in my local meta that begs me to play this deck again so he can try and get revenge with MUDpost when I blew him out G1 and G2 with double force of wills on chalice = 1.

[pandaman]

Heh, I guess that's true :)

The Infect match is a bit tricky. I usually like to be on the tempo side against most of the combo decks, so I really like the clock you get from Delver. Pithing Needle is the card I'm very undecided in this match. I agree that it's great, but I just can't figure out where to fit it and still be pressuring the Infect player. Now the removal is in parity with their threads; 12 removal against their 12 threats. So in theory it should be fine by filling the gaps with counterspells, but this is really a close call and sometimes your way is definitely the right way to go. But for your idea, I would probably take out also Trickbinds and make room for the Needles, 4 Stifle is enough to support 2 Dreadnoughts.

For the OmniTell matchup, I would probably switch the 4th Mishra to SB and put Wasteland in. Now that they run 2-3 Boseiju, it's pretty much a necessity to find a Wasteland in time.

Man, just reading this thread after a while, makes me want to go back to slinging some 12/12's! :D Every piece of good luck to your friend too in his future battles!

EDIT. Your other notes about misboarding are all just spot on and I'm not all that surprised that you saw already how they affected the outcome of the game play already in one match.

I definitely agree that we should be tempo against combo decks. But Infect is such a strange combo deck that I decided to go the way I did. And it worked, but I'm sure it was only because I opened that insane triple Lavamancer hand. Next time I'm boarding to keep myself more tempo to see how that goes. I just think that Pithing Needle totally wrecks their best plan against us, which is Inkmoth. Also, Pendlehaven can be a real problem if you're trying to interact with Lavamancers, so that could do with a Needling. Inkmoth? That's a Needlin'. Pendlehaven? That's a Needlin'. Etc.

[Yan]

I definitely agree that we should be tempo against combo decks. But Infect is such a strange combo deck that I decided to go the way I did. And it worked, but I'm sure it was only because I opened that insane triple Lavamancer hand. Next time I'm boarding to keep myself more tempo to see how that goes. I just think that Pithing Needle totally wrecks their best plan against us, which is Inkmoth. Also, Pendlehaven can be a real problem if you're trying to interact with Lavamancers, so that could do with a Needling. Inkmoth? That's a Needlin'. Pendlehaven? That's a Needlin'. Etc.

Originally I boarded like this: (for those not familiar with my guide, this is the 15 cards in my sideboard after sideboarding for game 2/3.)
2 Sulfur
2 Needle
2 EE
2 Trickbind
2 Dreadnought
4 Blast
1 Factory

But I could see putting Needles in, replacing them with the Pierces, that's probably the least useful of the counters. Not that I don't want Pierces, but it might just be that you are right and Needle is needed more.

[pandaman]

The problem is, that with 4 Waste 4 Stifle and the opp. having to pay mana into activating Inkmoth, Pierce is amazing and you don't want to take it out! Just like Flusterstorm and Daze. It's a real bind. Ultimately, though, Needle doesn't deal with anything your removal and counterspells can't deal with, so they should probably stay out. It's not like Miracles (Top), Cloudpost (Candelabra), or Sneak 'n Show (Sneak Attack) where Needle is just the straight up nuts and throws a huge spanner in the works.

[pandaman]

Did a lot of testing against BUG, and the deck needs the basic Mountain in a Wasteland meta (and there are a great many Wasteland decks around). I am going to drop a Volc for a Mountain and keep the fetch config the same.

However, the matchup gets much better after sideboard. I was playing against a BUG Control list though, with no DRS, but no Visions either, so I treated it like BUG control and boarded as such. I won most of the post-board games, if I recall, putting him on the play all the time because I couldn't be bothered swapping in Daze for Force all the time. Lavamancer is an all-star, killing Shamans and Strix and Tar-Pit and allowing you to Bolt Goyf most of the time.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Dreadnought has been creeping in price, makes me happy.

[pandaman]

Wow, I hadn't noticed that. I better get a hurry-on for my foils!

[Fox]

@ pandaman, I don't know that dreadnought is necessarily tempo versus infect. Infect is one of those decks where they took modern creatures and added FoW/brainstorm/ponder package and legacy-level pump spells [invigorate/berserk], and never really stopped to ask "why am I doing all this instead of just casting berserk or tainted strike on a dreadnought." I think the more correct way to play vs infect with classic dreadstill is resolve a 12/12 wall [that costs them 3 pump spells to climb before facing your counterspells] and killing them with delvers or factories in the meantime. Infect in its current form isn't going to win many games where it has to fire pump spells on an opponent's turn due to burn spells, wastelands, nor constant damage it can't block.

I don't play dreadstill with my dreadnoughts however - given the prevalence of miracles, swords, abrupt decay, and the occasional council's judgement/liliana [aka sorc speed removal] I've had much more success reaching into the bag of old tricks with phasing. Vision Charm is definitely a harder card to master than stifle/trickbind, but I think any stiflenought list needs to thoroughly consider completing a playset of these charms before adding a copy of stifle or trickbind. Not only does it cheat dreadnoughts into play, it fizzles any attempt to interact with them once they're resolved, and gives you an untap phase before they can interact with dreadnought in your upkeep.
Past dreadnoughts Vision Charm counters any attempt to wasteland a dual/shock, time walks 12-post lands [locus land = plains until EoT], makes a stoneforge/batterskull opening irrelevant until turn 5, stops high tide [you have no islands until EoT], removes ensnaring bridge/prison artifact for a turn, and puts doomsday combo as close to zero chance to win as possible. I don't think it's the correct use, but Vision Charm [mill self] + turn 1 fetch is the only 100% reliable way to cast Dig Through Time on turn 2 in legacy I know of.

I cut the red entirely, which makes this decklist a somewhat radical departure from previous lists in this thread, but here's what I run:
Lands [16]
x1 Academy Ruins [could just as easily be Volrath's Stronghold]
x6 Island
x3 Misty Rainforest
x3 Polluted Delta
x1 Underground Sea
x2 Watery Grave [monetary reasons]

Artifacts [4]
x4 Lotus Petal

Creatures [6]
x4 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts
x1 Gurmag Angler
x1 meta-hate call [generally Notion Thief or Yixlid Jailer]

Enchantments [3]
x3 Cloudform [12/12 flying, trample, hexproof + indirect phasing. Also clears Brainstorm lock.]

Spells [31]
x4 Brainstorm
x4 FoW
x4 Stubborn Denial [hard to justify spell pierce over easy ferocious hard counters, as red was dropped]
x4 Portent [I care more about opponents next 3 cards when no-hexproof dreadnought resolved]
x4 Vision Charm
x3 Stifle
x2 Lim-Duls Vault [manifest, see Cloudform]
x1 Not of this World [5th FoW]
x3 Dig Through Time
x2 Surgical Extraction [meta-call; incentivizes turn-zero Force against Sensei's Top - for those of us who really don't like miracles]

Sideboard:
x1 Mystic Remora
x1 Pithing Needle
x1 Null Rod
x1 Reality Ripple
x2 Teferi's Realm
x2 Steady Progress [chalice hate]
x1 Mindbreak Trap
x1 Uba Mask [omniscience hate]
x1 Take Possession [show and tell hate]
x1 Virulent Plague [mentor, pyro, dredge hate]
x1 Grafdigger's Cage
x2 Dark Confidant

I face very little BUG delver/shardless BUG in my meta, but cutting a black source, Academy Ruins, and perhaps another card to go up to three wastelands is not a bad modification. Cloudform is a very tricky card; and one you would need to play with to understand why you're not seeing daze in this build. Not having Daze also has the added benefit of being almost entirely unaffected by a proliferated chalice on 2 [or any even number within reason]. Cards that occasionally make it into the sideboard are Commandeer [much better card now that you can hijack Digs], Flusterstorm, and Tainted Strike. Were I to have Trops, we might see a Varolz sneak into the main.
I look forward to getting other dreadnaught variants' thoughts on this list.

Edit: Back to Basics is a regular sideboard consideration as well.

[Yan]

@Fox
Your list looks at least interesting. Obviously it's not DreadStill, but more like "all-in Dreadnought". DreadStill, at least the way I have built it, is supposed to be able to assume a different role in each game, depending on which kind of strategy your opponent is playing. Many people seem to bring it up that "in the world of miracles/decay/stop/liliana/whatever Dreadnought is no longer playable etc." The thing here is that in those matchups, you don't have to just go for the Dreadnought and cry after. The UR version plays very much like UR Landstill, if you just cut the Dreadnoughts, and that deck has ridiculously good matchup against those decks that people bring up. It's not actually transformational sideboard, as you are basically just removing few cards. I can't stress it more, how people see the UR DreadStill as just a Dreadnought deck, and are so wrong about it. Dreadnought for me is not the main plan of the deck, it just sometimes happens and wins the game for you and people will remember the deck from that. But actually it is just another Delver Tempo deck that has a better lategame (Standstill) and a two-card-uups-I-win-combo built in it.

Your deck does look interesting though, just not my cup of tea, as I like having some secondary plans. I also think your thread count is rather low, which will probably make you use your cantrips to find a thread but also leaving you unable to defend it after.

Against Infect, I do not think using Dreadnought as "12/12 wall" is a very good idea, as 1/3 of their creatures have flying and 1/3 are unblockable. The exact correct way to play this matchup is to control their creatures on your turn, when ever you can and just deny them the ability of ever having a thread in play and at the same time beating their face few points at a time, when ever you can. And when the opportunity presents itself, you can just end the game with single Dreadnought hit.

EDIT: Steady Progress as a Chalice hate sounds cute, but feels quite a lot inferior and more narrow than Engineered Explosives (only 2 mana).

[Fox]

@Yan In the infect matchup I'm not implying you never attack with one, simply that a dreadnought on defense means that their entire deck only has 10 cards you'll ever have to fight over in the worst-case scenario [berserk, blighted, inkmoth]. If you need it [i.e. can't out-race], defense buys you time and their chance to win decreases with said time.

I was looking around before posting for stiflenought threads before posting here, since my list probably more related to delver decks [in cmc] and infect [in large single attacks]; but I saw some posts about cloudform a few pages back and thought I'd chime in with ways to incorporate it, and its hidden costs [can't really run daze]. On threat density it's important to remember that no matter what cloudform hits, it's a 2/2 flying, hexproof creature - and when it follows any spell that lets you know top of library, opponents must seriously consider wasting counterspells and resigning themselves to fighting a normal dreadnought.

Sadly EE is not the best in my deck, as it's mostly mono-blue - while it kills all 0 cost permanents for 2 mana, it doesn't play well with manifests and I have reasonable options for token removal from black [important to remember that vision charm means almost all opponents have a plains for massacre]. The other aspect of proliferate I like is that an opponent will never again get to cast a chalice on 1, and two-drops are fairly meaningless to me. I find that most decks that run chalice cannot recover from x=2, so while proliferate is more narrow than EE, it's potentially backbreaking.

[Yan]

In the infect matchup I'm not implying you never attack with one, simply that a dreadnought on defense means that their entire deck only has 10 cards you'll ever have to fight over in the worst-case scenario [berserk, blighted, inkmoth]. If you need it [i.e. can't out-race], defense buys you time and their chance to win decreases with said time.


My point about infect was, that anyway the best plan is to fight their creatures, as they only run 12 and they absolutely need at least 1 to win with. In this plan, mentioning Dreadnought as a good defense sounds weird, when it only answers 4 of those said creatures, and even then there is that occasional Berserk. Your build definitely seeks to race them with Dreadnought, as you lack the removal. This will be very difficult though, as their clock is usually way faster than yours. The traditional build can play the control game and just remove all of their creatures. Which is in my opinion the superior plan here.

Even if your deck isn't necessarily DreadStill, I doubt people will condemn it because of that. Anyway, there is not many Dreadnought decks played at the moment, so this was your best bet to get comments. There was that DreadStalker deck or something like that at some point though, but I believe the conversation there ended quite a long time ago.

[Fox]

Well, well...not sure how fun Origins will be in limited/standard but there's quite a bit of legacy spice.
For U/R dreadnaughts:
Molten Vortex plays well with daze.
Psychic Rebuttal decent way to 2 for 1 burn decks (especially eidolan)
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Jace, Telepath Unbound can take place of a snapcaster or two [budget option until reprint]
Mizzium Meddler abrupt decay, 'nuff said.
Pyromancer's Goggles drop this through show and tell, use the mana ability and you have double pyroblast. You're still stone dead to flusterstorm if tapped out however; but you'd get style points by turning off cunning wish naming trickbind.
For U/B dreadnaughts like me:
Liliana, Heretical Healer Liliana, Defiant Necromancer if only there was a 12/12 trampler for 1 mana that could flip her...Sadly standard players think this card is supposed to see play outside legacy [buy them sooner rather than later]. Will be experimenting with this as a 1x sideboard slot for the more grindy matches.
Infinite Obliteration less good in decks without dark ritual, but decent sideboard emrakul hate. Also for the mirrormatch you'll never encounter.

[B88]

hi there!
after this good Ban (imho) i've started to thoght that dreadstill could be an interesting deck right now, not a tier i guess, but an option.

the list i'm trying right now is something like:

3 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

1 Trickbind
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Misdirection

3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
Artifacts [4]

3 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands [21]

2 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Tundra

the side is a working progress are but i have: Priest and Rip for sure.

my problem is to figure out if the White splash is necesary or i could play the Ur variant with Bolt instead of Swords and othere spicy cards in sb like B. Moon.
any advices? thx.
:tongue:

[Hopo]

my problem is to figure out if the White splash is necesary or i could play the Ur variant with Bolt instead of Swords and othere spicy cards in sb like B. Moon.
any advices? thx.


There are pretty much one or two cards that you would want from white and you are not playing either of those: Mother of Runes and maybe Hushwing Gryff. Swords has never been the card you want here since you just run over whatever they got with naught and bolt kills all annoying utility critters. Without Mother you will have miserable time against the uprising of BUG and their Abrupt Decays.

[B88]

There are pretty much one or two cards that you would want from white and you are not playing either of those: Mother of Runes and maybe Hushwing Gryff. Swords has never been the card you want here since you just run over whatever they got with naught and bolt kills all annoying utility critters. Without Mother you will have miserable time against the uprising of BUG and their Abrupt Decays.

for BG decks i have Misdirection wich is cool enough against decay. mother and the Pigeon seems worst than all others cards in the deck.
about swords and bolt you could be right :smile: the best choice could be the Simon Ritzka's list with Moon maybe.

[Hopo]

for BG decks i have Misdirection wich is cool enough against decay. mother and the Pigeon seems worst than all others cards in the deck.
about swords and bolt you could be right :smile: the best choice could be the Simon Ritzka's list with Moon maybe.

I'm not saying white is the way to go, I have never felt the white splash needed myself. But if I would, the reason would be Mother. It's a one mana card that handles removal either by shutting it down or making them spend it on itself. Also back in the days it didn't matter, but now it might be relevant to attack through Marit Lage with Mom's help. Gryff is more like Torpor orb #5-8 than anything else and probably not good enough to see play.

Of course, all this is related mostly to BGx matchups. You still have Counterbalance for the rest of the field.

[Jay_Gatz]

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Jace, Telepath Unbound can take place of a snapcaster or two [budget option until reprint]


Well that sure changed quickly!

[Fox]

The list seems pretty threat-light; you have 5 ways to get dreadnought into play and effectively 6 copies of the nought itself. There is a pretty strong card advantage suite, but the deck would seem to have a very hard time winning through a chalice or countermagic-protected meddling mage naming dreadnought - in either scenario, I don't know if 7x2/2s is going to win the game.

Mother of the Runes kind of feeds right back into the problem of not helping if you can't resolve the dreadnought in the first place. Definitely like it as a sideboard card, and having no white critters in the main means you won't see a game 2 Dread of Night - this can steal games with things like a game 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The other issue with Mom is that you'd be taking yourself off of turn 2 standstill play if that is your opener [this is why delver shows up in so many dreadstill lists as threat 5-8, forcing them to break standstill].

I agree with Hopo about running Torpor Orb over Gryff - about the only scenarios where I would choose gryff over it would be in the presence of opponent's Aluren or with your Aether Vial. Vial having the added benefit of using the instant-speed dreadnought to eat a just-resolved dreadnought, whose trigger is still on the stack; this not only represents a turn 2 dreadnought, but also means that with a nought in hand and vial on one makes K-grip the only effective targeted removal spell/ability to a dreadnought on the field. Probably doesn't need to be stated but Vial is also a trinket mage target and puts threats down through standstill.

The threat I think your deck really wants however, is Monastery Mentor. I can see -1 StP, -1 Trinket Mage, and -1 Snare to get up to a 3x in the main. I'd also think you'd be remiss to forego Karakas.

Edit: don't run "no ETB effects" with Trinket Mage or Snapcasters for that matter.

[B88]

the only card i have afraid is decay! if i play Mothers i couldn't play Sulfur wich is such a good card right now, even more i can't play Moon wich still one of the best card against Jund and Shardless bug. :frown:

[Fox]

the only card i have afraid is decay! if i play Mothers i couldn't play Sulfur wich is such a good card right now, even more i can't play Moon wich still one of the best card against Jund and Shardless bug. :frown:
Decay is probably the easiest answer to deal with; the list not only maindecks Misdirection, but also has wastelands and stifle to keep them off rather disparate mana. If you really need more levels of protection, I'd suggest focusing on cards that also get dreadnought into play like Vision Charm - phasing is too hard a counter for decay to deal with.

[B88]

but vision is bad in all others mu where trickbind is good :tongue:

anyway i'll try the Ur version (maybe with one sea in md for perish in sb) and i'll let you know how it works!

[Fox]

but vision is bad in all others mu where trickbind is good :tongue:
You'd actually be hard-pressed to find a single MU where it is irrelevant - and that's overlooking the fact that it cheats a dreadnought into play or protects it when resolved. The only one that comes to mind [if we ignore primary uses] is vs dredge - in any case it's more likely to be meaningfully cast than a Swords, and still pitches to FoW/Misdirection. Vision Charm also is a free win against Doomsday and High Tide.

[B88]

You'd actually be hard-pressed to find a single MU where it is irrelevant - and that's overlooking the fact that it cheats a dreadnought into play or protects it when resolved. The only one that comes to mind [if we ignore primary uses] is vs dredge - in any case it's more likely to be meaningfully cast than a Swords, and still pitches to FoW/Misdirection. Vision Charm also is a free win against Doomsday and High Tide.

i respect your opinion but for me trickbind is better than vision for the primary reason...denial!

[Fox]

i respect your opinion but for me trickbind is better than vision for the primary reason...denial!
If by denial you mean mana denial via fetch stifling, I'd highly suggest Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to hit them on the way in [fetches] and then on the way out [stiflenought] without needing 2 mana in the same turn for snapcaster.

[B88]

my score right now is:
4-2 vs infect
2-0 vs miracle
0-2 vs lands
0-2 vs grixis pyromancer (quite unlucky)
4-2 vs sneak
2-3 vs Det
2-0 vs 4c delver
2-1 vs team america

this is the list :tongue:

4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Counterbalance
3 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Standstill
1 Trickbind
3 Trinket Mage
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Underground Sea
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

i would like find a room for jace 2.0 in MD or in sb but i don't know what i should cut!

[Fox]

Bolt and Snare are the most situational, I'd begin there. Can also see an argument for cutting out one Trinket Mage.

[B88]

Bolt and Snare are the most situational, I'd begin there. Can also see an argument for cutting out one Trinket Mage.

but snare takes care of tarmo and cb wich are both played in this time! :rolleyes:

[Rood]

I'm curious what lists you guys are running currently....I see some people are still running Delver-less lists..
I'm not so sure I'm confortable ever doing that as I believe Delver to be the most powerful creature in the game atm.

[jredelstein]

Has anyone explored the interaction between Eldrazi Mimic and Phyrexian Dreadnought?

[Fox]

Eldrazi Mimic is certainly decent, but the 2 mana cost may be too slow for us...lest we digress into the land of MUD (sol lands). In theory though, I love the idea of the 2/1 body that's really just another way to cheat dreadnoughts into play - often times you're looking at a situation where "I've got 4 dreads and 4 delvers [or DRS] in my list, and can't figure out what the 4x 2-drop is supposed to look like," so this creature is certainly a good way to bring us to that 12-15 critter mark. Chucking dreads to make this Mimic a 12/12 non-trampler seems suboptimal (without the terribly slow [but stylish] super value game of Mimic + Volrath's Shapeshifter)...so realistically we are looking at turn 2 mimic -> turn 3 attack for 2 [maybe] + stack triggers for [real] dreadnought into play with +1 mana up -> turn 4 attack with dreadnought into JTMS mana? It seems like a great meta call if you want to use a different counter suite (swap out 3-4x Daze since we're deferring dreadnought into our next untap step). Otherwise, I think you'll find it competing for very high-impact slots like Torpor Orb and Illusionary Mask, while simultaneously not being an artifact itself (harder to interact with phasing, harder to pull off through lodestone golem). The other very powerful thing you can do with this card though is run Aether Vial on x=1 and blow out any opponent who ever tries to proactively remove this 2/1, having to resign themselves to the continuous possibility of flashed-in dreadnoughts.

The Mimic has pretty broad implications, even out to the point of Thran Lens (depending on how much spice you want to bring to your meta); so it'll be important to know what color shell you are planning on running it in. In the unfocused abstract, you're changing the speed of your deck by 1 turn and losing percentage points vs prison (specifically tezzerator and MUD).

There are a couple of other cards that stick out in this new set for us:
-Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - budget Diamond Valley shenanigans with less focus vs combo. Specific attention paid to "sacrifice" in the activation cost, and not the resolution.
-Call the Gatewatch - superfriends approach, but probably bad...style points for plainswalker toolbox I guess :laugh:
-Matter Reshaper - plays well with the cantrip cartel +/- SDT
-Stormchaser Mage - the monastery swiftspear that kills delvers.
-Warping Wail - if you did go sol land variant.
-Dread Defiler - honorable mention on the path to WotC printing a card that makes dreadnought a 1-mana quad-bolt/quad-ancestral/quad-dark ritual.

[pandaman]

I'm curious what lists you guys are running currently....I see some people are still running Delver-less lists..
I'm not so sure I'm confortable ever doing that as I believe Delver to be the most powerful creature in the game atm.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

20 lands

Sideboard (15)

1 Misdirection
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Lightning Bolt

[Fox]

Your list is a bit overloaded with countermagic (13+7) - this represents an opportunity to add in Stormchaser Mage and drop the REBs a bit. Also seeing a lot of Goyf hate (3x snare main + 2 dismember sideboard), which tells us a bit about your meta. Don't understand the 3x Tormnod's given that dreadnought kills bridge from below, and surgical extraction is a much cleaner answer to graveyard strategies (no loss of info when you swap out git. probes and it is also a mana denial card).

I definitely think your 75 needs at least 3 slots to deal with prison pieces - especially chalice, as in all 3 need to address this in some capacity. Things to think about include:
-Removal: Ancient Grudge
-Taxes: Energy Flux
-Disbelief: Teferi's Realm
-Bounce: Hurkyl's Recall
-Old school: Illusionary Mask ~change the CMC
-Actual hate: Viashino Heretic or Pulverize
-Attacking the underlying mechanic: Vampire Hexmage, which you can't cast. Steady Progress which is the smartest approach.

Of those options I generally prefer ones that let you ignore and play through their hate, rather than simply blowing it up like a standard player would. The other thing the main deck feels like it needs is either snapcaster or flip-jace, the latter being best. The main reason to play stiflenought is that stifling fetches is only half of what we're trying to do, this deck is all about flashing it back to resolve the 12/12.

[Rocco111]

Hey

First thing first, it's great to see some activity on this thread. Dreadstill is a great deck, only a shame cards like Counterbalance and Abrupt Decay are too present to make it a real contender. But Hell it is fun to play with! :)

Personally, Pandaman's list does not feel particularly wrong to me. Spell Snare is probably one of the best answer to CB (since CB+top is a nightmare for the deck).
Misdirection is a great card (see comment about Decay, same applies to StP) but I prefer Divert to avoid ruining my hand.

However, I think that maybe cutting 1 Grim and 1 Snare to make space for 2 Snapcaster or Flip-Jace might be better.
Cutting 1 land to raise the number of Trickbind to 2 would eventually secure more Dreadnought landings too.

This being said, with the rise of Eldrazi-stompy/aggro decks, what about maindecking Torpor Orb (and then ditching Snapcaster in favor of flip-Jace)?
The idea is to prevent Thought-Knot Seer from triggering, as well as Eldrazi Mimic (along with blocking the usual shenanigans like Stoneforge, opposing Snapcaster, Reclamation Sage, etc), thus keeping our hand safe from Clique-like effect.

M2c

[Fox]

Hey

First thing first, it's great to see some activity on this thread. Dreadstill is a great deck, only a shame cards like Counterbalance and Abrupt Decay are too present to make it a real contender. But Hell it is fun to play with! :)

Personally, Pandaman's list does not feel particularly wrong to me. Spell Snare is probably one of the best answer to CB (since CB+top is a nightmare for the deck).
Counterbalance is miserable to play against, because of the sheer amount of weird hate you'd need - and that's the hidden strength of miracles: you need pretty specific [aka cloudpost and/or sol lands] deck construction, or the ability to side into unreasonably high CMC silver bullets, to beat counterbalance specifically. At some point you have to choose if fighting something so ban-able is really worth your time. The power level of counterbalance [in a format without the power 9] is such that a wasteland deck is honestly more likely to beat miracles by pursuing a policy of LD vs anything that makes white mana [including basics], than destroying its own mana base to be able to cast abrupt decay or boseju'd answers. Anyways counterbalance rant over, moving to decay.
A key point about abrupt decay is that you can pretty well rely on those decks to put out misdirection targets (DRS) the turn before they can cast decay; and when they cast decay it won't be off of two basics, and they'll need fetchlands more than likely - all of this is less than optimal vs an opponent using wasteland/stifle playsets. In these matchups stiflenought isn't losing to decay so much as losing to the fact that goyf is a 4/5 - if pandaman's deck is tuned for a meta, I have to imagine it has a lot of goyfs, enemy delvers, dredge, and an acute lack of turn 0 chalice (did you mull to force?), ok go.
Getting to the 800-pound gorilla of pandaman's list, prefaced in the last sentence, is that it has 4x Mishra's Factories as its only threats in the face of chalice on 1 - it really doesn't matter how much you draw off of standstill if a game ever gets to the point of resolved chalice, because there is no answer to draw into pre- or post-board.
Misdirection/Divert/Torpor Orb are all great; and ours is an archetype with rather unparalleled freedom to eviscerate new cards, as we can operate care-free under Cursed Totem, Null Rod, and Torpor Orb at the same time if we so chose. It can actually be about the most regressive, yet competitive, legacy deck which forces people to play in a pretty hostile 1995-1996 shell. That said, classic UR Dreadstill opts out of nightmarish old mechanics, and is generally more streamlined towards burn-delver (that is deliberately able to go over the top of batterskull and jitte) than pandaman's list.
His list is entirely solid cards to be sure (excluding tormnod's x3), but it is a little clunky (too many counters), and needs to be able to work its way out of a few gamestates. I definitely like brewing UR Dreadstill's burn aspect out of the maindeck, and look forward to hearing about that experience. Coming from a UB stiflenought background, I'm looking at his colors and I *really* want to be able to do things like: tutor pulverize into the graveyard, target it with flip-jace, sac 2 mountains, and blow up all the artifacts - because it's powerful, hilarious, and fun. While our color selections are totally different, I think most stiflenought players are similar in that we want those those competitive yet facepalm/chuckling moments where both parties are like "is this real life right now" that you can only really get in eternal magic, and hopefully we'll see more of this egregious ridiculousness out of our UR brethren...and on that note, where the hell are my Sultai Emissarys and Obnoxious Revivals!?! :laugh:

[Rood]

Eldrazi Mimic seems insane, just saying. I like the fact he can permanently put Dreadnought into play or assassinate for 12 damage. Pretty cool card

[Ice1590]

Hey all! finally someone on this thread! so let me show my actually list:

4 Force of Will
3 Standstill
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Spell Snare
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
3 Punishing Fire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misdirection
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Devastation Tide
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction



i'm tryin the cb lock + pfire and it's look fine maybe wanna try to add daze but need more slots xD

[Fox]

@ice1590 I'd be cautious about picking up lands with Daze and running 3x Trinket Mages - also quad grove + daze is tough. I understand that your list is kinda like punishing miracles list (your miracles are 12/12s and a Tide) + standstill. Moving forward from that understanding here are some issues I see:
-v. clique is a card I've never wanted to cast in a dreadnought list (your list wants to play like miracles, so maybe)
-you can't play blood moon/back to basics effects as you have too many groves
-missing 4x wastelands (unless you're not really using stifle for mana denial)
-missing mentor [cut the sulfur elemental].
-EE moves to sideboard, but eventually cut making room for karakas
-dreadnought decks don't really need cage; RiP is fine, surgical is better (you see their hand).
-snapcaster should be flip-jace (torpor orb is your friend).

Lots of little critiques in there, but the main thing is something has to change or the groves/p-fire have to go. If the groves stay, you'll want to stay away from daze and also use them to cast more than one sideboard copy of ancient grudge. There are some really great options in red and green, but I think you want to move towards being a dreadnought/mentor/counterbalance+top deck - should look a lot like miracles (or esper mentor lists), but with 20 lands max (4x wastelands included). Excess lands and terminusx4 become dreadnought/stifle package, any cliques from miracles list can be easily changed to 'gotcha' Hushwing Gryffs and Torpor Orb.
--------------
On a totally unrelated note I almost missed the most meaningful piece of dread-tech released in Oath of the Gatewatch: Holdout Settlement! This one took some reverse engineering, but it's busted wide open for BUG/UG/UB stiflenoughts - it's kinda horrifying how unintentionally good this common is.

Ok so we look at it in a vacuum like R&D did, they made Springleaf Drum a land; why all the fuss??? Two words Illusionary Mask.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Wizards! You didn't just make unmorphing a mask'd critter free (read the becomes tapped clause)...you gave us +1 rainbow mana when we do it...on a land...as a MANA ABILITY, hahahahaha! We just beat the Split Second mechanic - oh, and morphed cheapies like Willbender, Stratus Dancer, Fathom Seer, and Ainok Survivalist to name a few, are actually legacy playable now. Who knows if it'll be good, but they just turned-on a whole new way to have fun with Dreadnoughts - and I want to be the first to willbender an enemy K-grip right at their top, and let the opponent know they can't do anything about it, because they invoked split second. :laugh: I mean, I guess I'd settle for flipping a stratus dancer to counter a tutor, after storm turned xantid sideways.

Obscuring Aethers anyone?

[square_two]

Obscuring Aethers anyone?

Does Obscuring Aether work with Illusionary Mask like I very much want it to?? The Johnny in me is getting excited. Too bad Illusionary Mask is a $200 card.

[Fox]

Does Obscuring Aether work with Illusionary Mask like I very much want it to?? The Johnny in me is getting excited. Too bad Illusionary Mask is a $200 card.
Cut and edit for correct rulings:
-Mask is activated, it can be stifled/revoked/null rod'd.
-Obscuring Aether's cost reduction doesn't apply to activation, but it does fight Sphere effects.
-Power Artifact/Helm of Awakening-type effects don't work, whereas Soldevi Machinist types do.
-the cmc on the stack is 0, no matter what was paid into the mask.

Sadly the silly morph critters will have to wait for their day in the sun. Obscuring Aethers are out (unless you really hate miracles), something like DRS would have to go in. At the end of the day though, you still get to play faster than split second with relative ease now thanks to the holdout/mask interaction. It is certainly a lot of work, but on-board counters/misdirections/gushes due to better-than-free unmorphing are uniquely well-suited to fitting seamlessly into dreadnought gameplay. All new sets should be inspected from this angle as well.

[sampi]

Here's What i'm starting with, what do you guys think?

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 REB/Pyroblast (Or is swords just better?)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

9 Blue Fetches
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

[monovfox]

4 REB Maindeck seems a bit excessive. I would run 1 max, and then play some removal/utility spells.

I have been working with the following list (it's been quite promising!). I like dropping rabblemaster in the late game, solid card that does solid stuff, though the black version with tombstalker might be better. My philosophy of the deck is that we should play cards that are strong when dropped right before or right after a standstill. My personal jury is still out on whether rabblemaster is better than tombstalker. It has been pretty decent.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
1 Trickbind
3 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm

[Megadeus]

Since this deck kind of revolves around resolving a huge threat and protecting it, any thoughts on the new Thing in Ice? Just kind of a thought:
4 Delver
3 Dreadnought
3 Thing in Ice
2 Tombstalker

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Misdirectionu
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
2 Murderous Cut
3 Disfigure

18 land

[Fox]

@megadeus
The dreadnought is how the deck goes over the top, but it is just as content to play (and win) like delver. The main difference is how we choose to fight equipment, and that we're one of the only decks that should be using stifle. A 1-mana stone rain isn't good enough, which is why we use flip-jace to recast, resulting in a 12/12 trampler. It should be noted that "this deck kind" is being applied to a family of decks whose similarity can end as low as 16/75 cards [brainstorm, FoW, dreadnought, stifle]. It is generally true though that most want it to live and turn sideways.

As far as Thing in the Ice goes, it probably belongs in a dreadnought list before any other legacy deck; but even here it seems lackluster. It's especially awkward with standstill and doesn't win a game through a chalice, for example...if I'm spamming spells into a chalice, I want Stormchaser Mage's prowess or young pyro tokens, not a turn of 8-power unblockability. There's certainly fun to be had with counter removal, but Hex Parasite has a cmc issue, leaving you with the black thalia (Vampire Hexmage) - at which point we're thawing the wrong card.

Looking at the rest of the list, you probably want 6 slots between ponder and standstill, at most. Non-modal maindeck removal is one of the worst things you can do in eternal formats; it has to be something you'd want to use on yourself (such as StP to gain 12) or able to kill opponent (such as bolt). There's not a lot of great black bi-modal removal...about the best is Lose Hope + Sultai Emissary, or something like Dimir Charm. As far as blue bi-modal removal goes, you're looking at things like the Reality Shift plan. Assume all removal [that you don't want to use on your own guys] to be dead draws vs each new opponent.

[Yan]

It's especially awkward with standstill ...

I'd say it's pretty absurd to wipe the board with Ponder/Brainstorm as your 4th spell for TITI and drop Standstill after that. Not to say that I would slot TITI to the same deck with Dreadnought, but I could definitely see it played with Standstill.

Your other points, I'm having difficulties to follow, as to me you are listing a bunch unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy. :)

But if someone wants to build a deck with TITI, I would start with Snapcasters and the basic Factory+Standstill package. The deck could actually look quite similar to DreadStill, just not as aggressive.

[Fox]

I'd say it's pretty absurd to wipe the board with Ponder/Brainstorm as your 4th spell for TITI and drop Standstill after that. Not to say that I would slot TITI to the same deck with Dreadnought, but I could definitely see it played with Standstill.

Your other points, I'm having difficulties to follow, as to me you are listing a bunch unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy. :)

But if someone wants to build a deck with TITI, I would start with Snapcasters and the basic Factory+Standstill package. The deck could actually look quite similar to DreadStill, just not as aggressive.
If Thing in the Ice is dropped turn 2, it's not flipping for another 2 turns. With Standstill you want to cast it right after a threat resolves; the longer you wait, the worse it becomes. The board wipe into standstill seems great, but a ton of creatures in legacy have ETB effects you don't necessarily want to re-up. I'm much more in favor of dropping flip-jace into standstill the next turn, his +1 ability is quite oppressive there.

The "unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy" have everything to do with non-UR lists. The point here is not the cards themselves, so much as the lessons you can take from those that play at the edge of the mechanics of the game - namely that maindeck removal (that only is there to remove enemy creatures...that might not even exist) is really bad idea. Spending those slots on bi-modal removal or controlling the stack, while relying on dreadnought to lock up the ground war, should be considered higher yield slot investments.

In Megadeus' list with TITI, all the non-factory creatures are terrible vs JTMS. Add to this the lack of ways to realistically win through x=1 chalice, and those 5 removal slots are much better off as a mixture of hex parasites and vampire hexmages. While those synergize with TITI, why aren't you just using Dark Depths? Alternatively, why aren't they just 5 counterspells?

The issue with playing dreadnought from the delver mindset, is that you're reading TITI and not seeing what it is really being used for. Sure, you can potentially board wipe into a standstill...but TITI is much more about finesse and holding an instant in hand. The board state you are manufacturing is one where TITI has 2 counters remaining, then this happens:
-cast dreadnought
-stifle (1 ice counter remains)
-they counter stifle
-you brainstorm (no ice counters remain) -> wipe the board returning dreadnought to hand, resolve brainstorm.

[Megadeus]

Why the fuck would I play my dreadnought when I'm about to transform and board wipe into a 7/8

[Fox]

Why the fuck would I play my dreadnought when I'm about to transform and board wipe into a 7/8
Dreadnought decks are not about reading cards, we're in the business of understanding them. You're playing dreadnought in that scenario b/c you don't actually care if it resolves and is stifled into play - but your opponent does, and that's what matters. If they let you have the 12/12 trampler protected at all points from all (non-kgrip) removal, they won't win. If they cash in their counterspell on stifle, dreadnought comes right back to hand and you're bashing for 7 with TITI - that and you have an extra card in hand to shuffle away with brainstorm if you so choose. If they leave the dreadnought alone, maybe next turn we slam standstill (which doesn't remove ice counters)...maybe they try to kill dreadnought here with standstill on the stack, maybe we'll just fire off brainstorm here and have our 7/8 under standstill anyways.

We don't play simple magic, none of this "you cast card A so I cast card B to kill it."

[cartoonist]

I'm taking the plunge into this deck. Dreadnought has fascinated ever since I started playing, and Stifle is one of my all-time favorite cards. However, cost is an issue, and even though I'm liquidated a bunch of Modern staples to get back into Legacy, it isn't nearly enough to get blue duals. So the plan is to go mono-blue. I'd like some feedback on this idea, and the tentative maindeck list I'm working on. If anyone else has experience with a Monoblue build, I'd be very open to advice.

Monoblue Dreadstill

Lands-22
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
16 Islands

Creatures - 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets

Artifacts - 3
2 Vedalkin Shackles

Other -
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Void Snare

Total - 60 cards

I figure Shackles might be a great card under a Standstill, since it offers the chance to build up the island count. I lose Lavamancer, but it does give me the ability to swipe threats, which potentially helps keep Abrupt Decay off my Dreadnoughts, or at least gives me another wincon if the Dreadnought gets Decay'd.

[Fox]

I'm taking the plunge into this deck. Dreadnought has fascinated ever since I started playing, and Stifle is one of my all-time favorite cards. However, cost is an issue, and even though I'm liquidated a bunch of Modern staples to get back into Legacy, it isn't nearly enough to get blue duals. So the plan is to go mono-blue. I'd like some feedback on this idea, and the tentative maindeck list I'm working on. If anyone else has experience with a Monoblue build, I'd be very open to advice.

I figure Shackles might be a great card under a Standstill, since it offers the chance to build up the island count. I lose Lavamancer, but it does give me the ability to swipe threats, which potentially helps keep Abrupt Decay off my Dreadnoughts, or at least gives me another wincon if the Dreadnought gets Decay'd.
First things first Artifacts = 3, but only 2x shackles listed (is there a second artifact)?
Easiest way to splash competitive colors is Polluted Delta + Misty Rainforest -> Bayou. If possible go to 7-8 Fetch (4 delta, 3-4 rainforest) and bump Wasteland and Factory to 4x. Tentatively 20 lands:
-4x Mishra's Factory (it's important to note that you don't have to play factory or standstill, and 16-18 lands is more than enough)
-4x Wasteland
-4x Polluted Delta
-3x Misty Rainforest
-2x Island
-1x Swamp
-2x Bayou

Shackles coming out, Void Snare out, Counterspell out, Gitaxian Probe down to a 2x (or removed). Assuming Gitaxian down to a 2x we have: 2 (lands) + 3 (shackles) + 5 (from others category) = 10x slots. I'd consider:
-6x Creature Slots, things like: 4x DRS + 2x Flip-Jace, 3x DRS + 3x Confidant. Consider a 1x Tasigur or Angler
-1x Torpor Orb
-3x Meta-Game slots like countermagic, misdirection effects, phasing effects

-Don't run decay main.
-I wouldn't go below 7 ways to get a dreadnought into play when running the playset.

I don't know what your price point is but Bayou will be the most accessible good dual, and even stopping at 1 is probably fine (in that case island ->3 or misty ->4). Regardless of going outside of mono-U or not, you're going to want the 7-8 fetches named above - otherwise you can't really afford to play brainstorm over a card like Preordain. With Delver/Dreadnought, your next best creature in mono-U is probably waiting for Thing in the Ice (and I really doubt this card settles above $10). Continuing with mono-U, in the 6 slots for creatures, this would become 4x ponder + 2x flip-jace or 2x additional meta-game slots.

[cartoonist]

First things first Artifacts = 3, but only 2x shackles listed (is there a second artifact)?
Easiest way to splash competitive colors is Polluted Delta + Misty Rainforest -> Bayou. If possible go to 7-8 Fetch (4 delta, 3-4 rainforest) and bump Wasteland and Factory to 4x. Tentatively 20 lands:
-4x Mishra's Factory (it's important to note that you don't have to play factory or standstill, and 16-18 lands is more than enough)
-4x Wasteland
-4x Polluted Delta
-3x Misty Rainforest
-2x Island
-1x Swamp
-2x Bayou

Shackles coming out, Void Snare out, Counterspell out, Gitaxian Probe down to a 2x (or removed). Assuming Gitaxian down to a 2x we have: 2 (lands) + 3 (shackles) + 5 (from others category) = 10x slots. I'd consider:
-6x Creature Slots, things like: 4x DRS + 2x Flip-Jace, 3x DRS + 3x Confidant. Consider a 1x Tasigur or Angler
-1x Torpor Orb
-3x Meta-Game slots like countermagic, misdirection effects, phasing effects

-Don't run decay main.
-I wouldn't go below 7 ways to get a dreadnought into play when running the playset.

I don't know what your price point is but Bayou will be the most accessible good dual, and even stopping at 1 is probably fine (in that case island ->3 or misty ->4). Regardless of going outside of mono-U or not, you're going to want the 7-8 fetches named above - otherwise you can't really afford to play brainstorm over a card like Preordain. With Delver/Dreadnought, your next best creature in mono-U is probably waiting for Thing in the Ice (and I really doubt this card settles above $10). Continuing with mono-U, in the 6 slots for creatures, this would become 4x ponder + 2x flip-jace or 2x additional meta-game slots.

I do have sets of Strands and Deltas, and a pair of Mistys, so I'll tweak the land base to include some of them. I can't believe I overlooked that. Damn, I've got Legacy-rust.

I honestly hadn't thought about a BUG build before. I might be able to swing a Bayou. The only duals I currently have are sets of Scrubs and Plateaus, and I just can't see those kinds of build working, especially since I don't have Tarns. But I'd definitely proxy to test that idea, and see if it's something I'd like to pursue.

Budget-wise, it's basically Forces/Wastelands. I wouldn't be able to afford new fetches/duals until much later, so I'm pretty committed to mono-blue.

I had considered TITI, but it just works against Standstill so much. I might consider a pair, to try to take advantage of broken Standstills, but not a set.

[Fox]

I do have sets of Strands and Deltas, and a pair of Mistys, so I'll tweak the land base to include some of them. I can't believe I overlooked that. Damn, I've got Legacy-rust.

I honestly hadn't thought about a BUG build before. I might be able to swing a Bayou. The only duals I currently have are sets of Scrubs and Plateaus, and I just can't see those kinds of build working.
Strand and Delta + Scrubland is workable at least. You're wheeling around black so in previous suggestion move all Misty to Strand and Bayou to Scrub x2. Now you're looking at Esper Dreadstill, and that's still fine. You've preserved black which is all you need for DRS (green mode doesn't really matter), and in white you get some insta-win sideboard cards (RiP, Thalia, Karakas, Stony Silence). As far as mainboard white cards you get Monastery Mentor and Hushwing Gryf.

There is certainly nothing wrong with moving from Dreadstill to something looking more like Esper Mentor or Dread n' Taxes (EoT tap vial on 1, hold priority, cast Hushwing Gryf, if they don't counter put down dreadnought and swing 14. this build does work better with karakas though). You'll have some strange hands every so often given the need to access basic island first, but as long as you max out around 4x DRS and 2-3 white cards it should be fine. Moving to 8 fetches that can all grab basic island and scrubland, and half that can find basic swamp seems manageable. DRS and/or Confidant are very good in dreadnought decks that don't use red, generally best to stretch colors for them.

Definitely don't let lack of blue duals stop you from experimenting, the deck is quite competitive and a ton of fun. Additionally playing non-UR versions will give you a much better mastery of mechanics and the nuances of priority. If you're going to be a dedicated dreadnought player, you'll find the lens through which we view magic to be very beneficial to determining what new cards you should invest in - and dreadnought can span a ton of archetypes.

[B88]

I'm taking the plunge into this deck. Dreadnought has fascinated ever since I started playing, and Stifle is one of my all-time favorite cards. However, cost is an issue, and even though I'm liquidated a bunch of Modern staples to get back into Legacy, it isn't nearly enough to get blue duals. So the plan is to go mono-blue. I'd like some feedback on this idea, and the tentative maindeck list I'm working on. If anyone else has experience with a Monoblue build, I'd be very open to advice.

Monoblue Dreadstill

Lands-22
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
16 Islands

Creatures - 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets

Artifacts - 3
2 Vedalkin Shackles

Other -
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Void Snare

Total - 60 cards

I figure Shackles might be a great card under a Standstill, since it offers the chance to build up the island count. I lose Lavamancer, but it does give me the ability to swipe threats, which potentially helps keep Abrupt Decay off my Dreadnoughts, or at least gives me another wincon if the Dreadnought gets Decay'd.

is hard play only U but i see your points!
you should play Repeal instead of Void snare and you shouldn't play delver since is so easy to beat, instead you should play Vendilion wich help you to protect you dreadnought!
one last thing...play Spell Snare because help you against too many problems, like: tarmo, tourach, balance, Young pyromancer and so on...

all the best, and good luck!

[pandaman]

Ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas Dreadnought lovers!

Decided to go old school in honour of my first weekly Legacy tournament in six months and last one before Christmas. Of course I played Dreadstill and had a ball.

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard (15)

2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer

R1 v Elves Win 2-1

On the draw to start, and I don't see a single counterspell before getting NO'd out.

G2 I bring in Needles, Lavamancer, EE's and start with a T1 Lavamancer, which is good enough to go all the way.

G3 back on the draw, I open Double Lavamancer so the Decay'd one is soon replaced and starts doing work to keep the Elves at bay. He's able to jam a fair few little critters, though, and starts pressuring my life total, forcing me to start doming him with Lavamancer while swinging with Delver. He swings me to one then activates DRS to kill me. Fortunately, I have a Stifle to scupper his plans and manage to swing and Lavamancer over for lethal the next turn. Phew!

R2 v Shardless BUG Win 2-1

On the draw again, and get BUG'd by double Shardless into double Decay on my Delver and Lavamancer. I Brainstorm into StifleNought a turn too late.

G2 on the play, I use my Lavamancer to keep his little creatures at bay and counter his Tarmogoyfs. Eventually I get StifleNought while his Liliana is at one counter and force him to block with Strix, DRSx2, and Shardlessx2. He goes to three, but I have a bolt to finish him.

G3 on the draw, he starts with double Visions, which play great into the double Standstill hand I have. I see a third Standstill and draw nine cards while he draws none thanks to Stifle, Stifle, and FoW. He graciously concedes during turns with an empty hand to my five cards and Mishra's Factory.

R3 v Dredge Loss 0-2

I have no Dredge hate and he has really good hands. G2 I could have dealt with double discard but he has TRIPLE discard spell in his opener and a dredger to get going. I can't recover.

R4 v UBr Tezz Win 2-0

My unfortunate opponent mulligans to five both games, which isn't good against a Stifle deck. I hit all his fetchlands and Delver kills him.

Dreadstill is still bloody fun! But I still think my changes are suboptimal and my good friend Yan's list and sideboard plan is the best. MVP was Grim Lavamancer, that thing did so much work for me. I am still slowly pimping this deck, but after picking it up again I think I want to get foiling a little quicker. Only all the expensive stuff to go :(

[RobNC]

...
R2 v Shardless BUG Win 2-1

On the draw again, and get BUG'd by double Shardless into double Decay on my Delver and Lavamancer. I Brainstorm into StifleNought a turn too late.

G2 on the play, I use my Lavamancer to keep his little creatures at bay and counter his Tarmogoyfs. Eventually I get StifleNought while his Liliana is at one counter and force him to block with Strix, DRSx2, and Shardlessx2. He goes to three, but I have a bolt to finish him.

G3 on the draw, he starts with double Visions, which play great into the double Standstill hand I have. I see a third Standstill and draw nine cards while he draws none thanks to Stifle, Stifle, and FoW. He graciously concedes during turns with an empty hand to my five cards and Mishra's Factory.

...

I'm not sure I follow how you're Stifling his Visions but he's triggering your Standstill. Can you elaborate a little better? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding how the triggers may stack.

[btm10]

If it was 3 Vision I'd understand. This had to be spread out over multiple turns, since you can't play a Standstill under Standstill.

[RobNC]

Well it's the using Stifle to prevent the opponent drawing while drawing your 3 off Standstill's trigger, unless I'm reading that wrong.

[H]

Well it's the using Stifle to prevent the opponent drawing while drawing your 3 off Standstill's trigger, unless I'm reading that wrong.

The issue is that if you allow the trigger to resolve, so that the Visions triggers the Standstill, you are past the point that you can Stifle it.

[RobNC]

The issue is that if you allow the trigger to resolve, so that the Visions triggers the Standstill, you are past the point that you can Stifle it.

Hence why I am confused. If you're Stifling the Visions suspend trigger then you're just triggering your own Standstill.

[pandaman]

Sorry, my reporting sucked. Thanks go out to lots of whisky for that one. I FoW'd the one I had a Standstill down for and Stifled the ones I didn't. So it was FoW (when Standstill was down), Stifle (when Standstill wasn't down), Stifle (again when Standstill wasn't down), then play some more Standstills.

[chaosjace]

What's a good direction to go with this deck?

Some rambling thoughts I am going through.

I am done with grixis delver but I like the tempo aspect, I wouldn't mind running wastelands. trinket mage seems good but slow, but that toolbox.
Splashing red gives access to some good removal and pyroblast.
White doesn't really add anything I am interested in that blue and red doesn't cover (vapor for Marit Lage if it's a problem).
Black offers DRS which is just a strong card also makes casting trinket mage more feasible, from there I could go with cabal therapy + git probe, and black has some good anti D&T tools.
I don't think green offers anything I remotely care about. MAYBE Goyf and sylvan library?
Would torpor orb be terrible? maybe as a 2 of, if I were to use my stifles on fetchlands?
I also like the appeal of countertop because legacy.
Split of grindstone painter servant as maybe a transformation sideboard? Both decks hate abrupt decay, paints everything blue for Force and Misdirection. (or white for sulfur elemental if i go red splash, but there probably isn't enough room for all these shenanigans)

[sco0ter]

What's a good direction to go with this deck?

Some rambling thoughts I am going through.

I am done with grixis delver but I like the tempo aspect, I wouldn't mind running wastelands. trinket mage seems good but slow, but that toolbox.
Splashing red gives access to some good removal and pyroblast.
White doesn't really add anything I am interested in that blue and red doesn't cover (vapor for Marit Lage if it's a problem).
Black offers DRS which is just a strong card also makes casting trinket mage more feasible, from there I could go with cabal therapy + git probe, and black has some good anti D&T tools.
I don't think green offers anything I remotely care about. MAYBE Goyf and sylvan library?
Would torpor orb be terrible? maybe as a 2 of, if I were to use my stifles on fetchlands?
I also like the appeal of countertop because legacy.
Split of grindstone painter servant as maybe a transformation sideboard? Both decks hate abrupt decay, paints everything blue for Force and Misdirection. (or white for sulfur elemental if i go red splash, but there probably isn't enough room for all these shenanigans)

White offers Enlightened Tutor, Hushwing Gryff and Mother of Runes.

I think Torpor Orb is actually pretty strong, because it doesn't produce card disadvantage like Stifle (on Dreadnought) and stops some opposing creatures.

[bizdoin]

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard (15)

2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer

Where are the remaining 9 cards?

[pandaman]

Where are the remaining 9 cards?

Far out, I am terrible. Another Ux fetchland, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Mishra's Factory.

[pandaman]

What's a good direction to go with this deck?

Some rambling thoughts I am going through.

I am done with grixis delver but I like the tempo aspect, I wouldn't mind running wastelands. trinket mage seems good but slow, but that toolbox.
Splashing red gives access to some good removal and pyroblast.
White doesn't really add anything I am interested in that blue and red doesn't cover (vapor for Marit Lage if it's a problem).
Black offers DRS which is just a strong card also makes casting trinket mage more feasible, from there I could go with cabal therapy + git probe, and black has some good anti D&T tools.
I don't think green offers anything I remotely care about. MAYBE Goyf and sylvan library?
Would torpor orb be terrible? maybe as a 2 of, if I were to use my stifles on fetchlands?
I also like the appeal of countertop because legacy.
Split of grindstone painter servant as maybe a transformation sideboard? Both decks hate abrupt decay, paints everything blue for Force and Misdirection. (or white for sulfur elemental if i go red splash, but there probably isn't enough room for all these shenanigans)

I don't know if I would want to be in any other colour except Red. The reach from Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer and the strength of Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast against the Blue meta are winners in my book.

[Fox]

First off, nice work vs Tezz without any phasing cards; I don't think that can be considered a good matchup without them. Against Dredge though you have both the ability to race and the best Bridge killer in legacy in one card: Dreadnought. Running red cards + Standstill isn't helping with speed vs yard-centric linear combo, but I've never found yard hate to be a worthwhile use of sideboard space. In theory the best yard hate would be Relic of Progenitus but this is primarily because of its anti-Goyf implications...still not really a healthy use of deck space as both Noxious Revival and Surgical Extraction feed more directly into the mana denial/stack dominance which Stiflenought relies upon.

Looking at the maindeck I don't understand a U-Sea (just for EE's 3rd color??), and your threats (outside Factory) are all 1-drops...and I'm not seeing CMC diversification vis a vis Illusionary Mask. Spell Pierce is fine, but you probably care more about a card like Spell Snare tagging CB/Goyf/Chalice. With your list you're using 23 lands (tallying initial omissions), which is probably about 2 more than you want to be without cards like 3-4 cmc walkers.

The sideboard is halfway confused, there are the 7 pieces of counter-magic (which are great) and then there's 4x sub-optimal cards addressing problems that don't really exist (the creatures), and then the 4 slots that don't really accomplish much (the artifacts). The fourth Lavamancer is fine against non-white (i.e. DRS decks), you're overloaded on countermagic such that Clique is a bit egregious, and Dreadnought decks are already in a uniquely great position to dismantle decks like DnT on the ETB axis as opposed to Sulfur Elemental (which fixes a problem that 12/12 colorless trampling already did). Your list is almost entirely 1-drop threats so it's really only trying to resolve EE on 2 or 0 (for 1+ colorless mana)? There's all kinds of things you can Pithing Needle, but it seems like you'd be better served by JTMS or Dack here.

There's plenty of finesse cards, but being that you're on red I'd suggest cards like Crash/Shattering Spree/Ancient Grudge (U-Sea to Trop)/Smash to Smithereens, Slice and Dice, Submerge, Surgical Extraction, and value creatures (flip-Jace or SCM). If you want to really send a message Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex, Set Adrift, Sapphire Charm, Grip of Phyresis, Crucible, or Blood Moon would all be fun options. I would also again heavily consider Illusionary Mask and Torpor Orb in the 75.

@chaosjace Dreadnought decks generally want to select away from slow cards and beneficial ETB. We really get ahead by evincing the very old mindset of stand behind your creatures (no evasion in the form of ETB value, moreso with this hilariously suspect Recruiter of the Guard from our perspective). We also play like a Delver deck, but attack the pseudo-mirror (real Delver decks) with the mana-screw asymmetry from our basic lands. U/W Dreadnought does a lot of unique things but it's probably the weakest variant (although it's also the most randomly hateful and flash-based variant). U/B (i.e. DRS) Dreadnought variants are the most competitive in my experience and are heavily favored versus DnT without any hate cards. U/G Dreadnought will generally revert to U/Bg; a heavier green strat with the current card pool is probably better served by using Thing in the Ice + DRS....if R&D screws up though U/G core with black is the best poised to exploit mechanics in the most unfair ways. CounterTopDreadnought is fine, but just like StoneBlade your playing a strictly worse control deck than miracles as measured by overall win %. Legacy Two-Card Monty, while fun, isn't competitive. If you're using Welder, I would stay far away from Dreadnought and Intuition and instead opt of Entomb and new Daretti (though even this is probably just a more disruptable Tezz-flavored deck).

@Sco0ter I would count Hushwing Gryff and maybe E-Tutor. The other cards are Karakas, Vial, StP (anti-Tendrils that doubles as removal, in the same way Bolt attacks life total but doubles as removal if you have to), Ethersworn Canonist, and Mentor. There are others, but these are most likely to make a maindeck difference played like Dread'n'Taxes. Alternatively U/W is a CounterTopMentor-ish featuring Dreadnoughts. As with U/G, if R&D screw up there are legacy-costed U/W shenanigans to be had, but not with the current card pool and they would not be as unfair as U/G.

[pandaman]

@Fox.

USea is for EE @ 3 and nothing else. I'm not convinced it's great. Yan doesn't like it, and I'm beginning to agree with him. It screwed me in a couple of games because I opened with it and therefore didn't have access to Red mana.

I am rusty versus Dredge, I think I could have played better and perhaps taken the first game. But I agree that the deck can do a lot v. Dredge even without GY hate.

I'm not sure what you mean about threat diversification. Could you explain?

Spell Pierce is very strong. It hits CB and CotV early game, which is when you want to counter them. Goyf is, admittedly, a problem if you don't have a FoW or a Dreadnought to trample over it, but I feel that Pierce strengthens you against a lot more high-impact cards than Snare.

I should only be on 21 lands, I agree, I put the list together at the last minute and didn't count them properly.

I agree about Clique, it shouldn't be in there. In its place should be the third Lavamancer from the main deck, making the maindeck and sideboard as follows:

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard (15)

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Misdirection

I disagree about the artifacts not accomplishing much. Needle and EE are versatile cards and are relevant in a large amount of matchups. I board them in and use them all the time. I would sorely miss them if I didn't have them and can't really think of anything that I could replace them with that would have their impact across all matchups.

I also disagree about this deck being able to dismantle D&T on the stack. From playing the matchup many times, your stack-based disruption alone is not sufficient to win. You need cards like Sulfur Elemental, Grim Lavamancer, and Engineered Explosives to interact on the battlefield and gain value.

The predominance of CMC1 threats doesn't affect your ability to EE as much as you would think. As you say, I most often EE for 0 (CotV, tokens) or 2 (CB, Goyf). If I am wanting to EE for 1 I am not usually playing my Delvers/Noughts/Mancers out until after I've done so.

[Fox]

The off-color dual is probably wrong by itself, but in terms of what you can represent with it, I think Trop is probably better. With Black it could mean Massacre, Snuff Out, or more absurd things like Outbreak, Fire Covenant...and I guess hard-cast Surgical. Trop can mean Ancient Grudge, Reverent Silence, I'm sure there's a couple more...importantly though if opponent sees Forest and has Submerge in sideboard, they will bring it in, and you'd be siding out Trop vs any deck that would potentially have that in sideboard (almost all Submerge users should be Delver). Are you looking for an effect (or the representation of an effect) which can turn StP life into a powerful response or are you looking to pick up the ability to attack enchantments? To go back to the off-dual only for EE, what 3 drop are realistically looking to combat, given that you don't care about Blood Moon? Is being able to kill a 3-drop worth jeopardizing how you get ahead in the pseudo-mirrors (basic land asymmetry ensuring you reach the 2 mana mark)?

I'm not talking so much about threat diversification but rather about cmc manipulation. You have 4x Factory and around 10x 1-drop threats; Illusionary Mask costs 2 itself and changes their cmc to 0 allowing you to ignore Chalice on 1. This card is only currently playable if you run Dreadnought as it is an engine piece. I guess you could also look at a 1x Cavern of Souls given the 8x human count of your 75 (potentially more if you wanted SCM or flip-Jace) and past that only one other creature type (dreadnought) and the mostly uncounterable 2cmc Trickbind to accompany it.

As far as Spell Pierce goes, you're naming 3 cards Snare hits all game long. Of course Pierce hits other cmcs, but Snare will more decisively answer the main reasons your deck can lose games. The debate over these two options really comes down to what you expect in a given meta; just keep in mind though that under Standstill they will be making land drops and drawing Pierce at any point isn't necessarily going to be effective.

What I see as most concerning with sideboard space on Sulfur Elemental is that a large part of why we play a Delver-style deck with Dreadnoughts is to invalidate decks trying to grind out little advantages with equipment over time and to avoid build-order losses due to Stifle use without goldfishing application. Unless you really need to address Monastery Mentor, you can just drop a Torpor Orb and a deck like DnT pretty much stops working - suddenly their deck is 4x StP vs your counter wall and deck manipulation. Yes Sulfur Elemental will kill up to 15 of their creatures (4x Mother, 4x Thalia, 4x Flicker, 3x Recruiter) but those cards aren't all that problematic outside Flickerwisp...but if they have to tap lands to cast them (i.e. if you dealt with Vial or they didn't have it), they're quite unlikely to win. Sulfur Elemental tries to fix a board state that is unlikely to happen, and still probably loses if they have that board state and an attached equipment (which is likely if they have gotten to that point). Consider also that many times in that matchup that you will actively want Thalia on the field.

You can play the value game, drawing cards that are mostly reactive, but Dreadnought is best when it's ignoring problems while advancing its path to victory. Decks like this [self 2-for-1] can't sustain that much removal for the sake of removal as it creates dead hands. Cards like EE and Needle can alleviate tempo, but they don't create it; and that's not a good combination when you definitely don't have planeswalkers, but the opponent presumably does.

[Rood]

Fatal Push is a very interesting card...I can see the U/B variant making a comeback with
Dark Confidant/Push. Also Grixis Dreadstill might be worth looking into again. Push is insane I think
we might want to visit this option. Wasteland, Fetches, and Dreadnought empty cast all trigger it.
I also like the Eldrazi mimic with Dreadnought even though nobody probably will lol. He can smash for
12 or enable us a Dreadnought like stifle does. Just some thoughts I had...

-Rood

[Fox]

There are a couple of issues with Fatal Push here, but the most important is that it doesn't do anything (unless opponent changes that fact by playing a target). Much of the strength of U/R Dreadnought is that one hit is generally game over with Bolt/recast (SCM or Flip-Jace). Now supposing we're cutting back on Bolts for Push, we're definitely picking up percentage points vs Goyf...but I think you get into a scenario of your deck running DRS and probably Grim Lavamancer too (no Delver). Given that, now you're running 1-2x Badlands with Daze in the 75? There is the need to power out basic Island early on (you'd be running Island and Swamp x1 each, but never Mountain) so a plan of Volcs and Seas only is antagonistic to how the deck wins (i.e ensuring two correctly colored mana early). You also lose a sideboard slot to Tropical Island (DRS) presumably.

Alternatively you go with U/B core and it's not really excusable to omit a DRS and Delver mix, so why are we using red duals over Trop (especially if we've replaced/trimmed Bolt)? There are other issues, but confounding the color identity in three directions is a build-order issue for a DreadStill deck. Picking up points vs Goyf (i.e. Fatal Push) doesn't count for much if you're simultaneously playing into the Wasteland plan pretty much all Goyf decks run. It's probably also important to note here that if you run Dreadnought in a deck with say 4x Bolt + 4x Push (or 4x Decay + 4x Push), you're just not going to win games through such dead hand potential.

Now you could really go all-in on U/B where there are no Trops or just 1x solely for DRS activations, but you're never beating miracles and you lost access to Pyroblast. There's a deck there, but I don't know that it's necessarily using Standstill anymore. I think it's some Badlands with DRS/Grim as the direction you're going in (moreso if you're considering Dark Confidant which eats into Delver's total spell count), without losing Dreadnought or Standstill...but even this feels like really finely tuning a deck that wanted to stay with the old U/R plan.

Mimic is a card that mostly goes with Ancient Tomb (meaning Chalice for sheer win percentage, thus no Dreadnoughts); without Tomb you're using Trickbind. Now the new vehicle Consulate Dreadnought would have been worth talking about if it had 12 power, alas it was only a near miss. R&D missed an opportunity there given that they're already willing to print the 12 power trick on a 2-drop, because Consulate with 12 power means a non-sol land piece of tech - and a much safer thing to print than Mimic ever was.

Doing a rough draft of your Grixis Dreadstill you're talking about 21 lands, 3-4 Standstill, and between 16-18 actual creatures (let's say up to 2 are blue), and now you have 20 slots left over at best. Given that you run FoW, pretty much all the rest of these have to be blue, but maybe it's ok to squeeze in 3-4 Fatal Push? The color restrictions are pretty tight, and only 20 spells to flip Delver largely precludes its inclusion.

[pandaman]

Hit up another weekly with UR DreadStill. 3-1.

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

4 LIghtning Bolt

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Misdirection

R1 v Merfolk, L 0-2

G1 I mull to 5 on the draw and opp. goes T1 Island Vial T2 Island Standstill. I don't win that one. G2 I he lands a standstill but I have Grim Lavamancer to keep at his creatures. Unfortunately, he gets a TNN I can't counter and I don't find a Dreadnought in time to race.

R2 v Miracles. Win 2-0.

G1 he mulls to five and does nothing much. G2 my Pyroblasts show up to protect my Delver and I overwhelm him.

R3 v RUG Delver. Win 2-0.

G1 on the play I drop a Delver and protect the living shit out of it for the win. G2 My REBs show up to take out his Delver after a mammoth counter war involving a Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, and two Dazes from him and a Spell Pierce and Force of Will from me (I had more mana). He gets a Goyf down after Bolting my Delver and things look grim, but I Brainstorm into a hand of Nought, Nought, Stifle, Trickbind. I use Stifle when he is tapped out from casting a second Goyf the next turn, which is just as well as he has double Spell Pierce in hand when I cast Trickbind on the second Nought. He has to read Trickbind... Double Nought was amazing! He didn't see Nought in G1 so I didn't have to deal with those damned Ancient Grudges they invariably board in. Fortunate.

R4 v Miracles. Win 2-1.

G1 I grind with a unbuffed Mishra's Factory (couldn't keep the Delvers around) but he stabilises at two life and has JTMS, CB, and Top to my nothing. I scoop. G2 I bring in the business and get busy protecting a Delver by Stifling and Trickbinding his attempts to miracle Terminus and EtA. REB and Pyroblast show up to assist with keeping CB off the table. It succeeds. G3, although he opens with Top (like he did in G1 AND G2) he appears to be stuck on lands so my Stifles go after all his fetches. I take care of a few Terminus and attempted Snapcaster Mages with my countermagic and get there.

Not bad, beating Miracles twice and RUG Delver. Losing to Merfolk is understandable after my mull. I think that matchup is unfavourable for us unless you open Nought, which I didn't.

REB and Pyroblast are the shit against Miracles. Flusterstorm, EE, and Pithing Needle are also normally fantastic, but I didn't draw them.

The deck is getting foiler. Got a Scourge foil Stifle last night and hopefully will pick up my third Scourge foil Grim Lavamancer at prerelease this weekend. A playset of foil Delvers is also floating around Brisbane so I'm on the hunt for those too. Traded up my Rev Volcs for UL Volcs two weeks ago, too!

[sco0ter]

Fatal Push is a very interesting card...I can see the U/B variant making a comeback with
Dark Confidant/Push. Also Grixis Dreadstill might be worth looking into again. Push is insane I think
we might want to visit this option. Wasteland, Fetches, and Dreadnought empty cast all trigger it.
I also like the Eldrazi mimic with Dreadnought even though nobody probably will lol. He can smash for
12 or enable us a Dreadnought like stifle does. Just some thoughts I had...

-Rood


Isn't Fatal Push bad news for Dreadnought decks? Do you we really want to play removal like that (or removal in general)? Most often Dreadnought just tramples over their creatures anyway.
I am more concerned that Push harms us, rather than we can benefit from it.

[sdematt]

Isn't Fatal Push bad news for Dreadnought decks? Do you we really want to play removal like that (or removal in general)? Most often Dreadnought just tramples over their creatures anyway.
I am more concerned that Push harms us, rather than we can benefit from it.

Push replaces Disfigures in BUG boards since most of the time, Decay is all around better in the meta.

It shines the most in Grixis lists, since they had worse removal (but still generally splashed green to Decay anyway), so maybe now they have Bolts and a couple of Pushes, but they still need to break Counterbalances and kill Equipment, so Decay still will see play.

Removal count is upped or gets a little more effective, but again, We also have a shit-ton of counters.

-Matt

[pandaman]

Isn't Fatal Push bad news for Dreadnought decks? Do you we really want to play removal like that (or removal in general)? Most often Dreadnought just tramples over their creatures anyway.
I am more concerned that Push harms us, rather than we can benefit from it.

Fatal push is pretty bad news for Dreadnought, particularly with Grixis now having on-colour removal that isn't damage based. At least it can be countered, unlike Decay. The reach Bolt provides, and the sideboard options Red provides, is, on balance, probably more valuable.

[claulis]

So with Top being banned, I was thinking about how to possibly improve this deck. I see its a Red splash now. But what if we made BUGStill. And utilized the new Plainswalker Nissa, Steward of Elements. She 'draws' lands and Dreadnaught and other creatures you may have with low CC.

Here is a VERY rough list I was putting together yesterday. I included a new fun card to help the replacement of Top (trickery charm) instant speed reorder the top 4 of your deck.

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 DRS

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Trickery Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Jace TMS

Lands(22)
5 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

7 Fetch

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

I don't know if the mana base is right, there were 4 wastelands in there before (changed them to the duals). I don't know if maybe you want to shave some of the 4 of's and get some more permission or draw (like ponder or spell pierce). And I don't know if trickey charm is what I would put in there but it gives you a look at top 4 for counterbalance vs 3 or less.

Here was a list of other possible instant speed Scry-ish effects that possibly could be in this deck for some utility as well as synergy with counterbalance:

Opt
Lose Hope
Condescend
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Natural Selection
Telling Time
Trickery Charm

Just Brewin and Deadstill is one of my favorite decks and looking to update it without top.

[MrFrowny_]

So with Top being banned, I was thinking about how to possibly improve this deck. I see its a Red splash now. But what if we made BUGStill. And utilized the new Plainswalker Nissa, Steward of Elements. She 'draws' lands and Dreadnaught and other creatures you may have with low CC.

Here is a VERY rough list I was putting together yesterday. I included a new fun card to help the replacement of Top (trickery charm) instant speed reorder the top 4 of your deck.

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 DRS

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Trickery Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Jace TMS

Lands(22)
5 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

7 Fetch

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

I don't know if the mana base is right, there were 4 wastelands in there before (changed them to the duals). I don't know if maybe you want to shave some of the 4 of's and get some more permission or draw (like ponder or spell pierce). And I don't know if trickey charm is what I would put in there but it gives you a look at top 4 for counterbalance vs 3 or less.

Here was a list of other possible instant speed Scry-ish effects that possibly could be in this deck for some utility as well as synergy with counterbalance:

Opt
Lose Hope
Condescend
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Natural Selection
Telling Time
Trickery Charm

Just Brewin and Deadstill is one of my favorite decks and looking to update it without top.

Honestly, with top getting banned I don't see any reason to play counterbalance anymore. I'd just recommend regular counterspells; spell pierce, spell snare, fow, counterspell.

[sdematt]

Honestly, with top getting banned I don't see any reason to play counterbalance anymore. I'd just recommend regular counterspells; spell pierce, spell snare, fow, counterspell.

I agree; I'll be posting my Grixis list shortly.

[Fox]

To add on to what @MrFrowny_ said, there are more powerful top-of-deck manipulation effects specifically pertaining to Dreadnoughts. An attractively-costed Call of the Wild has never really been the tool we're looking for.

Some loose general rules for Dreadnought decks are:
-any Charm must be immediately preceded by the word Vision (possibly Sapphire, but that's some next level strategy involving swaps in controller)
-for every Dreadnought you plan to run, you need 2-2.5 cheating effects
-we're a blue, mana denial deck [meaning Daze/Wasteland] and will generally avoid running a double off-color spell [Decay] particularly now that CB has been reduced to the same problem card it always was, but is back to looking for enablers .

22 lands, particularly [I]without any copies of Wasteland (+/- Factory) is far too high even with Standstill. U/B lists generally select towards 18-19 land and play the Delver-style game. We're ideally looking for 7-8x turn 1 threats, and certainly wouldn't trim DRS down to 3 copies in your list.

If you're using Nissa, you've already hit the three mana mark; using her +0 ability is certainly card advantage but the real issue has always been more about having mana to cast, cheat, and preferably protect a Dreadnought. In your list you only have 3x 1/2s and 4x 2/1s which might be around to protect Nissa with a chump block while she goes +2 to set up a +0 for a free Dreadnought...that still needs to have the trigger voided...and you have exactly 4 copies of Stifle and no potential to recast these.

Looking at your current list's non-dedication to Dreadnought, we're probably looking more at a deck that wants Death's Shadow and some Thoughtseize/Git Probe if we're truly intent on using Nissa + CB. I'm not really touching on Nissa + CB viability (I think @MrFrowny_ has put up some good alternatives), but generally I'd assume it's best to be either a Standstill deck or a CB deck.

What's odd/interesting in your list is the 11x creature total. Right now in Dreadnought decks it's becoming increasingly harder to run Delver as we're generally finding ourselves wanting 16x (and perhaps as much as 18x) creature spells. What's really nice about Nissa is she's the opposite of Delver of Secrets, rewarding us for higher creature counts; focus more on that novel aspect moving forward in your brew. Also perhaps look at cards that use the manifest mechanic if you want to go more in-depth on Nissa topdeck manipulation.

[pandaman]

Disclaimer: these comments relate to UR lists.

I don't know if you need two to two-and-a-half cheating cards for each Dreadnought. I've run successfully in the past with 4 Stifle and 2 Trickbind, as have a few others.

I agree, however, that 22 land is too much. I generally run 21, as follows:

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ux fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

and then board out one Waste or one Factory depending on the matchup to go to 20 lands post board.

I think that perhaps with Counterbalance getting banned people will switch from Abrupt Decay to Fatal Push, although perhaps not for a month or so. I don't see why you would want to keep running Decay if you can get the same effect for one less mana. If that happens, Dreadstill gets pushed back into the spotlight as a solid deck choice because Fatal Push is removal we can actually counter and are not forced to Divert or Misdirect. Looking forward to seeing how the meta pans out.

[Fox]

I don't know if you need two to two-and-a-half cheating cards for each Dreadnought. I've run successfully in the past with 4 Stifle and 2 Trickbind, as have a few others.
But did you run Snapcasters or flip-jace alongside those; they add to the virtual count.

[pandaman]

But did you run Snapcasters or flip-jace alongside those; they add to the virtual count.

Indeed. They also incentivise your opponent to burn removal on them clearing the way for Nought.

[Fox]

Anyways for the fun of it let's say we actually want to have Nissa/CB list. We're going to need slots, so it's to be an aggressive mana base of 18, maybe 19 lands. We have some amount of Nissa that we're doubling down on, so we're shooting for a higher creature count. In the spirit of @claulis' list:
--17 creature:
4x DRS
4x Mongoose (since the list can't run Delver or Lavaman that well)
4x Dreadnought
3x Confidant
2x JvP (SCM would generally require higher land counts and/or cheaper, non-engine, BUG-colored cards)

--18 land:
4x Wasteland
8x Fetch (maybe -1 Fetch for basic #2)
1x Island
3x Trop
2x USea

--21 Spells:
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Stifle
4x other cantrip, probably Ponder (maybe we're running Opt for the whole CB plan...seems suspect)
3x Daze
2x Trickbind or equivalent 2cmc cheat artifact or Vision Charm (probably want this on for the self mill option for the Geese)

--4 other:
2x CB
2x Nissa

The slots in such a list would be exceedingly tight, which isn't going to be apparent if the inspirational starting point is somewhere between "they are running Nissa/CB in modern, let's port it to legacy" and "having 4 copies of Dreadnought [read Felidar Guardian] and 4 copies of Stifle [read Saheeli Rai] with no other real support for the combo aspect is legacy viable." When you abandon the red in Dreadnought list, you don't really have the luxury of playing removal because you generally have to hit twice. In this way the life total reach of Bolt makes it an engine card which Fatal Push and Decay can never be (StP gain 12 mode probably makes it the next best, albeit strange, engine card that doubles as straight removal). When you are in the BUG colors of Dreadnought you really need to combine and layer very eccentric mechanics and synergistic interactions. To that point it's somewhat unfortunate here that Mongoose comes out as the best 1-drop option to pair with DRS as we are dragged away from our UB core. Also its shroud keyword discourages the self-targeting degeneracy that only a Dreadnought deck could want.

I will say congrats though to @claulis; you have correctly, if accidentally, identified that the new Nissa is a Dreadnought card. She is however an extremely specific tool for a trigger-nullifying approach, turn-ending approach, or more likely a manifest specialty approach. These are all interesting directions, as is your CB approach, but likely to be more fun than reliably consistent/good. It's also important to point out that CB is a simplistic card; you won't be picking up wins by undermining and exploiting mechanics to their fullest.

[sdematt]

Why not something like:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage (I know Snapcaster is a large investment to rebuy a Stifle, but I feel like I always want Stifles)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dreadnought
14

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Vision Charm
3 Fatal Push
4 Bolt
4 Standstill


20 Lands

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroclasm
1 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Red Elemental Blast

Obviously too many cards, but that's where I would want to be if I had the slots. Need to figure out where exactly I want to be.

-Matt

[Hopo]

I have had this idea for years but never publicly stood up for it or even tried it myself, but it just feels so good that maybe I finally have to: How about you focus on the best 1-drops of the game and complement them with Aether Vial? The theory is that you can lead with Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Vial or Lavamancer and follow up with plentiful control elements until you win. Dreadnought is bigger than anything they can slip through so that's how you go over the top if you have to.

Vial also gives you another way to save your Stifles as you can use double dreadnought to land one. Not to mention those spicy end of turn -dreadnoughts.

Any obvious issues with this? Matt?

[Poron]

you're going to suffer a lot Chalice@1

Unless you can't slip in an early Vial.

[Hopo]

you're going to suffer a lot Chalice@1

Better not let that resolve then. I also have this principle of not playing Standstill without bounce spells.

But that is not the type of problem I had in mind. Every deck has issues with specific cards and those you can handle with proper deckbuilding and sideboard. But is there something fundamentally wrong with the strategy? Something like if I have the setup of vials and 12-16 creatures, do I have enough slots left to cover the "control the sh*t out of the game" part of the plan? Or should I concentrate more on card advantage via creatures and ditch Delver which is essentially a vanilla beater?

EDIT: actually delver doesn't seem that hot since more creatures, vials, standstills and slightly higher land count contribute towards delver not flipping.
I just started drafting this.

[Fox]

A problem with the best 1-drop creatures in the game + Vial is that already you can't run Delver in a creature-heavy approach. The remaining best 1-drops are Goose, DRS, and Lavamancer...and none of that is blue, and two require continual sources of non-blue mana. If you're using 7-8 slots on Dreadnoughts and Vials, you're going to need pretty extensive access to hand correction regardless of what colors you're going with. The best sources of that are generally going to be at the 3cmc mark (Dack, TFK, maybe even a prison element like Leovold/Geier Reach Sanitarium) which means you need 19-21 lands (~3 basic lands in that which are preferentially fetched early) to reliably reach. Now let's revisit Lavamancer and DRS and note that they aren't going to play all that nicely with the idea of T1 fetch -> Island. It's a fairly odd place for your deck to be, 20+ lands encourages you to play Standstill while a focus on 1-drop creatures tells you to run only 18 lands (in a list choosing to forego Standstill). The combination of higher land counts with greater inconsistency [i.e. Vial is a bad topdeck] is generally the first mistake seen in brew lists here.

Vial isn't entirely unplayable, but at that point you're probably trying to attack the game from a U/W axis. The rule break you'd be trying to exploit is Hushwing Gryff cast EoT holding priority on an x=1 Vial activation (Dreadnought in hand). The 3-4 Hushwing approach will at least severely cripple a number of decks as it's quite good against like every DnT creature, SFM, Strix, Clique, and SCM (all seeing higher play right now). You get all the white SB cards, hatebears, maindeck StP (if included) reads gain 12 vs burn, Karakas, etc... but you'll still need to find hand correction and an engine type card which can deal with resolved Chalice [which is pretty challenging, if not impossible with white]. Honorable mention though to Sundering Growth in the Chalice killer/engine category; it's *really* close to working like a Stifle with keyword populate. With Vial deferring mana costs you'd also be able to brew around the 18 land mark, and that makes it friendlier to a 2cmc TFK type hand corrector (Perilous Research).

@sdematt lots of competition for slots in your list. Kinda need to ask if you want to be the 20-21 land Standstill deck or if you want to stick to the 18 land or even turbo approach (15-16 land, Petal x4) with playsets of Delver, DRS, Dreadnought, and 5-6 slots of Confidant [3-4x] and Flip-Jace [2x]. I will say though that Fatal Push is a bad card, it's a Bolt that won't take you from needing only 1 Dreadnought hit (down from 2). If you really want to dabble with Push + Dreadnought, you probably need to seriously consider Reanimate to play their deck too.

For either @sdematt's list or @Hopo's ideas, keep tabs on your creature types - are you ever going to reach a point where 1-2 Cavern of Souls is the right call?

[chaosjace]

I was just talking to my buddy about making a dreadstill list again, we were thinking torpor orb, and maybe eater of days for more pressure and dodges decay. also stifle-able

[Fox]

I was just talking to my buddy about making a dreadstill list again, we were thinking torpor orb, and maybe eater of days for more pressure and dodges decay. also stifle-able
Decay is on the downswing and Fatal Push is on the uptick. Standstill builds have the land count to deploy SCM and recast countermagic, specifically after a Standstill gets cracked so not really playing nicely with Torpor Orb. To use Torpor, you're going to be more interested in flip-Jace and lower land counts.

If you want the 2-drop artifact, it's probably Illusionary Mask. At this point Thing in the Ice is half the cost of Eater of Days, it's blue, and if you ever place ice counters on Thing in the Ice or let keyword defender stop you from declaring an attack, you're being unimaginative.

[MrFrowny_]

I think the correct way to play Dreadstill now-a-days is to not fully lean on Phyrexian Dreadnought to win the game. With Dreadnought being so easy to kill now (Push, Swords, Decay, Strix), you need another way to win the game if you don't find your Stifles or if your Dreadnought gets killed. I think Mishra's Factory is still a good secondary win condition in the deck but we need something else that can either put a fast clock on your opponent or has evasion. That's why people play Delver in Standstill decks because you can deploy a turn-1 delver then follow it up with a Standstill or Dreadnought.

I just personally think going all in on Dreadnought is a bad way to play the deck now. We need other win conditions that can keep up with what's being played now.

[Fox]

Went 3-1 last night with U/R version.
-R1 loss to RUG Lands 0-2 (heavily due to drawing Delta both games, which is supposed to be a Tarn able to find basic Mountain), pretty fun games though. Opponent brought the spice with Nissa (VF) and Chandra (ToD).
-R2 win vs Food Chain 2-0. Mana denial + Delver both games; after Decays a Dreadnought would come down.
-R3 win vs ANT 2-1, winning both post-board games. We had a real game one, and then played 'mulligan: the gathering.' G2 featured a mull to 5 before I saw a single land, Factory into Wasteland, 8 life later (2 Probe, 2 Fetches, 2x attacks) opponent kills himself with Ad Naus. G3 ANT mulls down to 5 and I'm on a mull to 6, Factory and Delver beats to 9 life and then he kills himself with AdNaus again.
-R4 win vs Infect 2-0. G1 trades with Glistener with Delver and can't beat T2 Dreadnought protected by double Daze. G2 he has to mull to 6, his opener is Fetch basic Forest -> Noble and Probe me, I deploy Delver. Next turn he plays Trop + Glistener, I BS on upkeep to flip Delver and swing in. Turn 3 plays Blighted Agent (Pyroblasted), attacked for 2 infect, I play land #3 and drop Standstill and win the 1-drop counterspell war and attack with Delver. T4 he forces me to draw 3 and goes for the kill with 2 pump spells, the second one meets FoW (8 infect); the game goes on but Factory x2 on defense and Delver on offense ends game ~3 turns later.

Even losing all 4 die rolls, these all seem like fine matchups for me. Aside from the suboptimal stuff (running at half Tarns and Flip-Jace over SCM), the SB should probably be looking for more of a plan vs SCM/Push/K-Comm, so maybe it's time to sleeve up some sideboard Dispels and/or Teferi's Response? Top decks (I think we were somewhere around 17-20 players) were Grixis Delver (4-0) and in the (3-0) bracket it was Elves, RUG Delver, and the old Twelve'r of Secrets. Other decks in the room not previously mentioned were Blade x2, Eldrazi, Elves #2, Aluren x2, Maverick, BUG Delver x2...so that is the 17, including my own, I can name.

The maindeck is pretty stock, 21 lands, 4x Delver/2xBig Grimmz (Lavamancer)/4x Dreads/2x SCM equivalents. On top of the 2x Lavamancer there are 5 other slots of burn: 3x Bolt/2x Izzet Charm.

Have a GPT later today, but won't be able to borrow Tarns so I'll probably just throw together a UB list, which is more fun anyways, even though I'll miss out on blackmailing opponents into letting me draw 3. :laugh:

@MrFrowny U/R might run 4x Dreads but it's hardly all-in, it's just another burn spell. The main reason you should be running Dreadnought is to always have a reason to use Stifle while ignoring large swaths of cards like Goyf/Gurmag/Equip/TNN/insert combo deck/P-Fire/fog blocking (Symbiote, Quirion, Scryb, Karakas). If there's an issue with the U/R version, it's that you're not as focused on undermining the rules of the game, and you're almost fair enough that you have to waste SB slots on yard hate.

[Megadeus]

This is probably terrible, but I really enjoy Dreadnoughts. Any thought to a UG list?

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Berserk
3 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Blue Fetch
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

[Fox]

I understand the inclination to run Tarmo, b/c these colors don't really have a clean answer; but the more correct creature is more likely Nimble Mongoose. There is still a problem here though, we're in some of the worst [reasonable] colors for straight-up Dreadnought play...and any time we're trying to play fair you can't justify passing up black to run the playset of DRS.

Nothing is really going to go all that wrong with 21 lands (4 Factory, 4 Wasteland), playsets of Delver/Goose/Dreadnought, and at most 6 other cards that aren't able to flip Delver (4 being Standstill). The problem is you're saying Dreadnought kinda has to hit 2x for me to win and there's really just not enough slots left to adequately protect one, and you can forget about any non-stack removal. There are integral problems, but it'll break even in a local meta because the cards around it are generically good. It has a pretty low plateau for edging out wins based on player skill or mechanics subversion, but again generically fine.

In terms of what U/G Dreadnought can do when they really push the mechanics envelope, you're probably talking about some of the most fundamentally unfair exploits possible in magic - but luckily for everyone else in the format a few key effects do not yet exist at the right cmcs. So outside of the truly abusive "I untap, you can't" meeting "I use phasing, and let's skip all the untap steps" there are simpler combos which require less mechanical mastery and attention to layers of redundancy. One of the least difficult using your Goyf approach would be to build your own 7/8 Goyfs and have a deck built around alt-casting that playset of Not of this World; I doubt this all that good though. In general the level of power you have to beat in U/G for as few pieces as possible are:
-resolve Greater Good, cast colorless quad-Ancestral, draw 12, discard 3. (this is a BUG build, there's no way you are passing up DRS)
-play Mosswort Bridge, respond with Worldly Tutor, put Emrakul on top. Next turn cast Dreadnought with trigger on stack cast Emmy for :g:

I'm just going to assume that you don't want to delve into the world of face-down casting or madness, so I'll suggest this:
-add black, play DRS.
-add a playset of Quirion Ranger.
-play 18 land Standstill with ~12 color producing lands/fetches cutting a Factory and Wasteland.
-go for the ideal turn 1 of Trop -> Quirion. T2 float U, bounce Trop, replay Trop, Standstill.
-draw your cards and burn them out with DRS on Quirion steroids or drop in the Dreadnought.

[Rood]

To the Grixis idea...I like it. I think Gurmag Anglers and Pushes could be just what this deck needs.

// Lands
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [MM] Island (3)
2 [EXP] Scalding Tarn
4 [JGC] Polluted Delta
3 [JGC] Wasteland (2010)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [JGC] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FRF] Gurmag Angler

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [C15] Brainstorm
4 [DD3] Daze
4 [MPS] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AER] Fatal Push
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MM3] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [JGC] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [DDK] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C13] Rough/Tumble

Probably could use some Probes somewhere in the 75, but I think that with the success grixis tempo
is having with Gurmag...we have to at least entertain the notion of possibly using him too.

[Michael Keller]

You may want to explore Vision Charm. I was playing it locally and it was incredible. It not only helps power out - and - protect Phyrexian Dreadnought, it mills four cards and allows for turn-two Gurmag Anglers.

[Hopo]

To the Grixis idea...I like it. I think Gurmag Anglers and Pushes could be just what this deck needs.

// Lands
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [MM] Island (3)
2 [EXP] Scalding Tarn
4 [JGC] Polluted Delta
3 [JGC] Wasteland (2010)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [JGC] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FRF] Gurmag Angler

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [C15] Brainstorm
4 [DD3] Daze
4 [MPS] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AER] Fatal Push
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt




This is starting to look a lot like powered-up version of modern's grixis shadow and I like it. Which leads to Kolaghan's Command. I have nowadays problems imagining about any BRx deck without it and dreadnought decks needs efficient cards as the main wincon is both fragile and card intensive.

[Rood]

You may want to explore Vision Charm. I was playing it locally and it was incredible. It not only helps power out - and - protect Phyrexian Dreadnought, it mills four cards and allows for turn-two Gurmag Anglers.

You couldn't be more right. The mill 4 is pretty crazy with Gurmag. I wonder if playing a build with 2 charms
and 4 Gurmag might be correct. It seems pretty crazy.

[Megadeus]

I guess charm + gurmag is like a second version of stifle + dreadnought in that it takes multiple cards to make a huge fatty?

[Hopo]

I guess charm + gurmag is like a second version of stifle + dreadnought in that it takes multiple cards to make a huge fatty?

Charm is more like a super ritual before casting Angler.

[Fox]

There are probably some suboptimal card choices in that list. I think that any time you're looking at above 18 lands in a deck with Wasteland and Stifle (for Karakas), you really have to start asking why we're using Gurmag over Tasigur. That extra point of power matters against ~1 in 10 paper matchups where you'd want Angler to answer an Angler, but you're probably losing overall win % against the field by skipping out on Tasigur activations in a deck that clearly has the mana to do so.

As a very minor point when we're talking about Vision Charm, we at least have to acknowledge the nuances of priority; Vision Charm puts exactly 5 cards into your yard while maintaining priority into your delve creature - there's an axis of interaction here for opposing DRS especially to time walk you. When you're really going on the anti-value delve creature plan you're probably moving away from Standstill, and towards Petal because now you're talking about pretty reliable T1 Anglers (non-Fetch -> cast Petal -> cast Vision Charm off land -> 5 in yard, priority not* passed, announce Angler, pay black component with Petal and then delve it away [yes, it does work like you want it to] with the other 5 cards in yard and not even Extirpate could have stopped you). Potentially 8 shots at the turbo T1 fatty (Angler or Dreadnought) isn't exactly great deck design, but it's probably mechanically more sound than Vision Charm/Standstill & not-Tasigur in the sense that it's better positioned to creatively abuse the delve mechanic...and let's be honest, who doesn't want to see a deck have 3 cards in the yard, only a Petal on board, and legally cast Rite of Undoing.

This list is playing a pretty straight-up game, so Vision Charm probably isn't a good fit - any slots you're making for it are coming right out of those 7x removal slots. If you are cutting removal for Vision Charm, you probably just get rid of red entirely even though Fatal Push is a vastly worse card when it comes to making a single Dreadnought hit lethal. Alternatively you could stay on 3 colors, bring Bolt up to a 4x, Fatal Push to a 0x, Vision Charm 2x, and then take that last free slot and cut into your Spell Snares to bring Thoughtseize up to 2-3x....but,

...Other problems still exist in this list, largely centered around Standstill being in many ways unsupported. This list only runs 8x threats which can be deployed before or during a Standstill, and that number should probably be closer to 10-12x. Where is the DRS in all of this? That seems like the 1-drop threat you can protect with Daze, replay your land, and still cast a turn-2 Standstill. At lower threat density, you will have to protect that creature [with Daze or a fairly aggressive FoW]....so we're on a turn 3 Standstill plan...and that plan isn't conflicting with resolving the huge payoff creature? The timing windows this deck is trying to hit seem confused with Standstill in the mix. The other issue, not related to Standstill as much, is that we should probably see at least 2 slots dedicated to SCM or flip-Jace.

Staying on the normal gameplan I'd probably go more in this direction:
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x USea
2x Volc
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest [20]

4x Delver
3x DRS
3x Dreadnought
2x SCM
2x Tasigur [14]

4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Bolt
2x Thoughtseize
4x Standstill [26]

The sideboard presented has 1-2 more red blasts than it needs, 3 indefensible Spell Pierce (your list had 15 other counters in the 75), some pretty questionable Sulfur Elementals (Izzet Staticaster has wider implications, Dread of Night harder to remove, etc), and two Cages when yard hate outside of Surgical is probably overkill. Lavaman and the small board-wipes seem fine, but the list is really lacking any way to deal with Chalice.

[Fox]

So I decided it was time to Enter the Fist at GP Vegas, and while it was good fun the run was less than optimal. I played the full 9 rounds, but it stopped mattering after round 7 when my record went to 3-4. As all good Stifle/Wasteland/Daze stories begin, I lost all 7 die rolls.

--Round 1 vs Jund Lands (2-1). Kind of at a loss for words as to how winning this is possible, but apparently it is. Game 1 goes horribly as expected. Game 2 is won on the back of Teferi's Response, Snapcaster -> Teferi's Response. Game 3 is a pretty long grind getting opponent down to 7, with Chasm in play opponent declines to block SCM with his 3/2 Tireless Tracker, I phase Chasm out, SCM connects followed by double Bolt. I'm gonna chalk this uncharacteristic win up to it being 9am(ish) and not enough coffee for either of us.

--Round 2 vs old DnT list badly in need of updating (0-2). Game 1 opponent is pretty much on one land the entire game, and having gone first the Vial dodged Daze. Game 2 I probably could have won even with opponent seeing 5 of the only 8 cards in that deck that really matter to us (StP and Flickerwisp). There's quite a bit of variance here, but this DnT was running 3-4 Revoker and an amount of Serra Avenger still and while that's pretty suboptimal, a large part of the outcome is due to always having Revokers for Grim Lavamancer at the right time (after proactively putting blind Revoker on JTMS). Of note: in both games he yolo'd a 2/1 Thalia into active blocking Factories.

--Round 3 vs Belcher (1-2). Game 1 opening hand of Daze/Stifle does nothing on the draw vs turn 1 Empty. Game 2 he loses to FoW, but again had a turn 1 hand. Game 3 I mull a 7 of 4x lands, 1x Standstill, and 2x cards not named FoW. Hand of 6 is Daze, Stifle, Delver, Fluster, FoW, Standstill so I keep (pretty sure that's correct with scry and 12 draws that result in blue mana, 3 draws of FoW, and 1 draw of Commandeer). Again he goes for the turn 1 with Land Grant -> Tinder Wall -> Pyretic Ritual -> Seething Song, which is FoW'd. Other cards in his hand are LED, REB, and Burning Wish (otherwise I could have waited to FoW the Wish). There are something like 7 draw steps following that, but I only find a basic Mountain and end up dying to 6 gobbos. Interested to hear thoughts though - would you guys mull to 5?

--Round 4 vs Burn, Searing Blaze subtype (0-2). Both games are close, every card burn has must matter and they do down to the last. She is especially fortunate in game 2 to avoid all of the three misdirecting spells I board in as any one of these is game-losing. I'm quite happy with this matchup in general, and don't feel the need to deviate from how the deck is built to win most of the time vs Burn.

--Round 5 vs OmniSneak (2-0). Game 1 he goes Volc -> Ponder, shuffle. Wasteland targeting Volc ends the game. Game 2 I prioritize basic Island over a Volc -> Lavamancer -> T2 Standstill opener that would lose to Blood Moon. Cantrips from the opponent on his turn 3 rather than SnT, so Standstill comes down on my turn 3. Turn 4 is Sneak Attack backed up by FoW losing to FoW + Divert. Opponent can't beat 2nd Standstill creating 3 layers of countermagic

--Round 6 vs Elves (2-0). Game 1 he mulls to 5 (or maybe 4), leads with Dryad Arbor. Wasteland targeting Arbor results in a long slow death to Lavamancer lock. Game 2 I'm pretty confused by the opponent's fairly erratic behaviour of picking elves up for no value and never pursuing the mediocre beats vs a Standstill deck...regardless, I play Illusionary Mask turn 2, play 2 Dreadnoughts face down turn 3, play Standstill turn 4 just in case they have a hand with removal, and swing for 24 trample. I'm pretty sure that even if he had Natural Order for Hoof, I just choose to block rather than stop if from resolving.

--Round 7 vs UWR Delver (1-2). Game 1 is the pretty typical Delver game where they go first, they win. Game 2 is actually the first time in the GP that I can actually Stifle a fetch (like 95% sure on that)! It's a pretty normal Delver game until Dack steals Jitte. Game 3 is a long fun game, Wastelands and Stifles abound and his deck is limping along on 2 basic lands and I nearly stabilize on 1 life. I was thoroughly confused by his deck having 20 lands, no SCM, and a SB plan of RiP and Cage against my 2x SCM. :eyebrow: This opponent was an absolute joy to play against with quick & clean actions, tight play, and keen understanding of when priority is passed at meaningful junctures.

All in all a very strange day of legacy, really in every regard. The deck itself felt fine, and against that list of decks I think an expected result would generally be between 5-2 and 6-1. Never seeing Grixis anything, Reanimator, Gurmag/Goyf, Leovold, nor Chalice/TurboMoon made the day feel quite a bit different than I expected it would be. There's a lot of mentioning Grim Lavamancer above, but I only ran 2x main and the number felt correct - the skewed creature sets I faced make it seem like there should be more. Round 1 and 2 put me at a predicted record of 1-1, but that highly atypical Belcher outcome in Round 3 put me on a strange course.

Anyways here's what Dreadstill looked like in the hands of a UB-prefering pilot :tongue:

Lands (21)
Volcanic Island x3
Island x2
Mountain x1
Mishra's Factory x4
Wasteland x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Polluted Delta x3

Creatures (12)
Delver of Secrets x4
Grim Lavamancer x2
Phyrexian Dreadnought x4 (aka Twelver of Secrets)
Snapcaster Mage x2

Enchantment/Artifact (5)
Standstill x4
Illusionary Mask x1

Spells (22)
Brainstorm x4
Force of Will x4
Stifle x4
Daze x4
Izzet Charm x2
Lightning Bolt x2
Trickbind x1
Wild Slash x1

SB (15)
Flusterstorm x2
Pyroblast x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Invasive Surgery x1
Teferi's Response x1
Teferi's Realm x1
Reality Ripple x1
Dack Fayden x1
Volt Charge x1
Commandeer x1
Divert x1
Misdirection x1

[Fox]

Went 3-0 tonight in weekly legacy, 19 players was a pretty good showing for Thursday night. Re-sleeved UR Dreadstill, pretty much the same list as last post. Meta was:
-Lands x1
-DnT x2
-Elves x2
-EsperBlade x1
-Infect x1
-Shardless x1
-Grixis (+ Decay) PWs and big spells pile x1
-OmniSneak x1
-Grisel'Lands x1 (this is a strictly better name for Reanimator Depths)
-NicFit x2 (rough estimate on number of copies)
-Dead Guy Ale x1
-Portent Miracles x1
-U/R Delver or Grixis Delver x1?? (hard to imagine I was the only Delver deck in the room)
-Unknown on other two decks, but don't think there was any Storm there.

Anyways was lucky to win three die rolls playing vs OmniSneak, DnT, and Elves in that order. Other top table at the end was R/G Lands winning vs Elves.

OmniSneak 2-1: pretty sure we each mull to 6 in each game. Game 1 opponent eventually resolves Sneak Attack and puts in Emrakul, I have Stifle for the trigger but topdecked one too many Fetchlands and die at 15 life. Games 2&3 are fairly similar where opponent finds Boseju but never hits SnT (or finds it after his own Blood Moon), likewise I never hit any Wastelands but will find Commandeer twice and I get to play SneakStill which is always a treat. Game 2 I got to EoT Sneak in Delver, flip to Brainstorm, hit for 3, Stifle sac trigger. Game 3 I live the dream and haste'y Sneak Dreadnought backed up by Trickbind for the win.

DnT 2-0: Game 1 opponent has no Vial, the 2 drop triggers a Standstill and meets Daze, and Mother of Runes will prove ineffective vs 12/12 colorless trample. Game 2 the turn 1 Vial runs into a Shattering Spree before it can get to x=2, the game is a relatively long land fight (opponent will present Waste for my Volc, and 2x Port for my basic Island. Eventually I hit Wastelands for either Port), followed by running Dreadnoughts for the win vs board of Mother, Thalia w/ SoWP equipped, and Gideon of the 2/2s.

Elves 2-0: Game 1 Stifle the fetch, play turn 2 Illusionary Mask, and Dreadnought gets there with second Stifle for Rec Sage. Game 2 opponent opens with GSZ for Arbor which will meet a Wild Slash. The turn 2 is DRS + Thoughtseize (seeing hand of Dreadnought, Stifle, Izzet Charm, Standstill, FoW, Island), takes Stifle and is punished by topdeck factory into Standstill [losing the race due to life loss]. Thoughtseize #2 is played cracking Standstill and sees another hand that can't really be disrupted, chooses to discard a Grim Lavamancer. Other elves are being played as well as a mini-Glimpse, but 2 turns of consecutive Dreadnoughts vs only one Decay takes opponent from 13 to 1 and dead to Bolt with DRS activation on stack.

Playing against SnT is always fun even when I'm not on a UB build, but the real fun in Dreadnought comes from games like I had in round 2 and 3 where each time you see a "must deal with" card like Glimpse or Mother, you have to correctly decide whether or not it matters; because of that every game is different. Sadly there was no fourth round vs R/G Lands, so no lethal Wild Slash attacks through Maze/Chasm nor any phasing out of Marit Lage tokens.

In terms of the new set, the Embalm and Eternalize mechanics are worth looking at in a Standstill shell. Bontu's Last Reckoning is terribly unimaginative, but powerful (especially vs TNN); I expect a few decks will use it as Toxic #2, particularly if they run phyrexian mana on top of all that. Claim // Fame is a card where Shallow Grave or Unearth are simply better; I wouldn't invest in that unless you think it's going to be a thing in modern (I guess it's a pretty easy 1x in any Grixis Shadow deck). Refuse // Cooperate could probably be played in Dreadstill, if for no other reason than to ruin someone's day (which makes it an awesome card for any cube). Driven // Despair is a pretty questionable 5th Glimpse of Nature, again unsure if modern will make this card valuable at all. Dunes of the Dead has obvious applications. Fraying Sanity has no use outside milling out Miracles. Hollow One is a fine honest wincon in any Faithless Looting deck. Leave // Chance seems like a Bomberman-ish type of card. Liliana's Defeat is probably a pretty safe investment, but I think Fatal Push will always be ~2 or 3x more expensive; just a great SB card even though it can't exile a Marit Lage. Oketra's Last Mercy seems like a great SB card for white Vial decks that just hate burn. Ramunap Excavator is cheaper than the $80 artifact version; expect pricing differential to settle around JVP vs SCM ratio. Rhonas's Last Stand is >100 dollars cheaper than Goyf and still not good vs Fatal Push; still probably a reasonable card to speculate on. Desert of Progenitus probably worth owning two of. High marks for Striped Riverwinder for Reanimator strategies looking to kill control. The Scarab God - thanks R&D, I really wanted to play legacy against a 4/4 zombi'fied Veteran Explorer.

For us specifically:
Nimble Obstructionist is better than Clique in a deck running Torpor Orb, and I wouldn't spend more than 3-4 dollars on it. Survivors' Encampment is a bigger mistake than Holdout Settlement as it picks up a named nonbasic type (anyone who knows Dreadnoughts knows how to alt-cast Daze with a Desert). We are still however waiting for better "Desertcycling" than Shefet Monitor...when this is legacy-costed, we will simply be waiting for high cost disparity morph creatures (low cmc, high unmorph cost) with broken enough "when turned face up" text. Tragic Lesson seems great, but I don't see this being better than SB Teferi's Response in UR Dreadstill; maindeck use seems legacy/vintage viable, but I don't think that's still a Dreadnought deck. Expect Tragic Lesson to be in better decks than As Foretold; it should replace any copies of Pieces of the Puzzle in an OmniTell deck. Abrade is going to be pretty good for Dreadnought in general. Within a few weeks we should expect to see SB Ancient Grudge numbers get decimated. Moreover, this is a card that UR Dreadstill should be looking at seriously for maindeck play in a Bolt slot (way more reliable than Smash to Smithereens), and second copy sitting in sideboard. Unlike other decks, you can really make the case for Abrade maindeck (21 lands and a quick look at the cmc of our threats) especially if you expect any amount of Chalice in a local meta. Mirage Mirror isn't a real card, but when it drops to ~50 cents I may pick one up for the lulz.

--------

Well hopefully you guys got your Abrade playset when they were ~75 cents apiece. :tongue: On the plus side there is some game day thing that is happening soon with the full-art version that hasn't been released yet.

Haven't been able to play legacy as much as I'd like, but did make it to another weekly legacy 3-rounder on 7/27. Went 3-0 again, winning the first two die rolls, and losing the last. Meta breakdown:
Portent Miracles x2 (one was U/W Karakas B2B and the other had more of a Blade plan)
Sneak and Show x2 (both without Omni)
B/R Reanimator x1 (first round bye)
DnT x1
Elves x1
Belcher x1
Infect x1
Food Chain x1
Maverick x1
AggroLoam x1
LED Dredge x1
Czech Pile x1
Grixis PWs x1
U/R Delver x1
and me on U/R Dreadstill

Top tables were Infect vs me and Belcher vs ??? (DnT maybe). Belcher got there through miracles and SnS, but don't know if they won or lost in round 3.

R1 vs Grixis PWs (2-0): Turn 1 Delver, opponent plays DRS. Delver flips to FoW and Standstill deployed. Game devolves into opponent having to crack 3 Standstill with cards like Ensnaring Bridge, LotV, and JTMS. Game 2 some mana denial, Standstill draws the countermagic and Dreadnought protected ends game. Learned more about the deck; it seems to be 11 counters maindeck (split of FoW, Pierce, Cspell, and Fluster), 6 (?) walker slots, 6 board wipes (Damnation & Deluge), 4 DRS, 2(?) Leovold, 2(?) E-Bridge, and some unknowns.

R2 vs Food Chain (2-0): Turn 1 Delver, kill your DRS, swing for 1, Delver eats Decay. This opener is followed by Stifle -> SCM Stifle destabilizing his mana, and SCM beats getting enough damage in to end the game with a pair of Bolts. Game 2 has slower openings, there’s some silly things in this game like Delver played and dying to an x=1 Ballista, but the game is really dominated by keeping him off basic Island. A Standstill is cracked which enables running Dreadnoughts, while there are two Decays out of the opponent, the first is Commandeer’d and turned on his Baleful Strix. The closest he will get to combo in either game is resolving a Manipulate Fate – unlike most blue decks in the format, this isn’t a must counter spell. If they want to dump 12 cast from exile power (assume Food Chain in play) into the yard as they gang block a Dreadnought they will need a Gurmag to re-exile them; any time they cast this spell you'll need to analyze whether or not it actually matters versus speed of game. I haven't checked much lately, but there's a good chance that Trinket Mage/EE/Pithing Needle rules out both Fierce Empath and Gurmag - this can infer that DRS is the only way to get cast from exile out of their yard.

R3 vs Infect (2-0): Game 1 they are facing a nightmare hand of burn spells and Wasteland for Inkmoth. After going all-in on their last infect creature and losing the fight they concede hellbent to empty board and 3 cards in hand. Game 2 I have to mull an amazing hand featuring Wasteland, permission, and Big Grimms [Lavamancer] due to no colored mana. Mull to 6 is a pretty terrible hand (2x Dreadnought, 1x Standstill) but it has perfect mana and a Fluster so I keep, scry a land to the bottom. Opponent opens with Git. Probe, Trop, but no threat. I topdeck a Wasteland and decide to take out the Trop – there’s definitely merit to rolling the dice on Blighted Agent and laying down some long term plans for Standstill with an answer for Nexus, but I go for the play that delays a Blighted by one more turn and forces them to prove they can alt-cast an Invig. Infect fetches out a Trop and plays Hierarch, leading to one of those games where Blighted will be chipping in for 2 infect a turn and me joining the intricate race that is matchup once I can play an eventual Dreadnought. After I go up to 6 infect, I swing in forcing a block and leave opponent with only enough Infect threats to deliver 3 damage. Usually a pretty fun matchup since both decks are pretty much doing the same thing with different cards; one card you will really miss if you don't run it is Vision Charm, this card is amazing for phasing out a pumped Inkmoth or even stripping them off Forests to force Invig casting before combat.

I think it'll be another two weeks before I can play again, but will be able to make it to 3-round and the 4-round weekly events.

-------

Recap of 8/10 (3 rounds, 2-1) and 8/12 (4 rounds, 3-1)

No information on complete meta of 8/10, won first and last die rolls.

R1 vs Maverick (2-1?): memory is a little fuzzy on this one, but cracking Standstills and outpacing removal led to an eventual loss to burn spells.

R2 vs Grisel'lands (Reani'depths) (1-2): Game 1 opponent's opening hand has Stage and Urborg and some other cards that die to a FoW, they topdeck Depths before I can find Wasteland. Game 2 opponent can't get their game plan started through Stifle targeting Marsh Flats, turn 3 Dreadnought answered by Marit Lage which is promptly targeted by Reality Ripple and heads off to exile. Game 3 pretty sure ended with a Grave Titan. Being on the play has so far always determined winner in a sample size of 6 matches and 2 post-board games for fun.

R3 vs Elves (2-0): Both games had opening burn spell for their first guy; in second game I think opponent was on mull to 5. I recall being able to execute some Standstill and quick clock which allows my countermagic to ignore Glimpse.

Complete meta breakdown of 8/12:
Portent Miracles (U/W) x1
B/R Reanimator x1
Elves x1
Shardless x2
Czech Pile x1
Pyro-focused Czech Pile x1
Abzan Blade w/ blue for Ponder/BS x1
Bant Deathblade x1
EsperBlade x1
Maverick x1
Burn x1
Infect x1

Pretty ugly field but I luck out and get B/R, Infect and Elves. Sadly did not get to dodge the fair soup entirely and had to play vs Abzan Blade w/ blue (I'd rather have faced Miracles or Burn).

R1 vs B/R (2-1): Lose coin flip, opponent mulls to 6, reveals Chancellor to my hand of Standstill stuff and FoW/blue cards. Turn 1 Thoughtseize self, Chancellor to yard. Island and Delver pass. His turn Exhume is FoW'd. Delver flips, beats commence, and Factory & Standstill deployed. Opponent resolves Reanimate on Chancellor, but is now losing the race. Suicide attack comes in maybe 2 turns later with 3 attackers, followed by Bolt. Game 2 Iona on blue comes down before I can do much, concede 2 turns later. Game 3 is a crazy game, I manage to get a Delver and Factory down before opponent cant turn 2 Sire. Delver won't flip, and we get into a race for 2 turns, once I get down to 6 life I have to double block 1/1 Delver + 3/3 Factory to kill Sire. I manage to find a Standstill and deploy it (first Sire trigger knocked out 2 other Factory from hand) and we play draw go. Life totals are ~12 to 6 (and then 11 to 5 as we each fetch once) as I get up to seventh card in hand, I do some math then decide to crack own Standstill, resolve and cheat in Dreadnought, then deploy a new Standstill. In response two Entombs come out grabbing Tidespout and Grisel. Opponent cracks Standstill and I've got a hand of Commandeer, FoW, Misdirection, SCM, Delver x2 vs their hand of Thoughtseize x2, Reanimate, Animate Dead, and Fetchland. There wasn't any way to play through my hand (Delver in my yard to if I want to Misdirect Reanimate), and I end up with stolen Animate Dead and Tidespout; opponent chooses to end game by resolving Reanimate for life loss equal to current life.

R2 vs Infect (2-0): Both games are a pretty fun dance and Standstill is getting in the mix to slow game down to manlands/Delver vs manlands/exalted Blighted Agent. Never got to resolve a Grim Lavamancer, but other burn spells give me an edge overall. Last game comes down to an attack with 2x Inkmoth, 1x Blighted (I'm at 7 infect); I block with Delver and opponent uses last mana to Crop Rotate with no mana floating. I let it resolve through Daze (don't want to die to a pump spell) and he puts down Pendlehaven whose activation is Stifled. The counterattack is lethal.

R3 vs Abzan Blade w/ blue (0-2): un-linked value cards played in no specific order wins when you can't deny mana as there is nothing to disrupt.

R4 vs Elves (2-0): read any of the other write-ups of this matchup; if you have the luxury of ignoring Glimpse due to your own clock, then there's few cards we need to care about.

On a pretty nice streak atm winning 11 of my last 13 matches, the deck is pretty fun to play. Almost want another copy of Big Grimmz somewhere in the 75, but any copy that I'd put in the sideboard is likely better as another copy of Abrade.

[Fox]

So let's take a look at Ixalan in decreasing order of relevance:
-Tocatli Honor Guard is the non-flash cheaper Hushwing Gryff. It opens up different U/W variations which would avoid use of Aether Vial; still there's a dearth of 1 mana openers in those colors after Delver so Aether Vial probably still best (in the worst color presentation of Dreadnought). I guess there's maybe this idea of Vial/Delver opener, Standstill, and liberated 3-drop slot (Gryff -> Honor Guard) to Nimble Obstructionist. Cavern of Souls implications: note that this is a human as are Delver, SCM/JVP, Grim Lavamancer, and Dark Confidant.
-Chart a Course can be used for a non-Standstill approach without sacrificing the raw CA, there's technically some madness play to this card.
-Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin Standstill #5 kinda card.

Sideboard stuff:
-Perilous Voyage virtual CA version of Echoing Truth
-Ashes of the Abhorrent does everything that Yixlid Jailer should have done.
-Entrancing Melody quite good vs tokens, particularly ones wearing Batterskull.
-Rampaging Ferocidon doesn't die to P-Fire hatebear that kills P-Fire.
-Sentinel Totem sometimes you can't find your Relic and can't be bothered to buy another. More a card for Welder decks.
-There are two flip-legendary lands that undermine Counterbalance by either dealing 3 or forking spells. The deal 3 land is still probably worse than the highly unplayed Shivan Gorge.

Honorable mentions:
-Arguel's Blood Fast // Temple of Aclazotz: this is fine, we're always a bit interested in Diamond Valley effects. Certainly worse that just Dark Confidant, but such effects are engine cards on the path to gaining the best part of playing red (burn; the idea of 1 Dread hit is lethal) in a color that is fundamentally more broken (black). The most important effects in this transition don't really exist yet as we're still waiting for "when we gain X, opponent loses X" on cards that are actually usable. For now we just file this card in the "Death's Shadow is actually a Dreadnought archetype" folder and wait, joining cards like Orzhov Charm, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Diamond Valley, Grisel, and of course Swords to Plowshares.
-Deadeye Tracker card was kinda close to working in a highly tech'd out manifest approach. Definitely not played before 4x DRS, and there's zero interest in +1/+1 counters vs say a keyword like Deathtouch. Pretty great troll card with Vengeful Pharoah, but as it is just an awful Mirri's Guile.

Set seems to lack any anti-Chalice play at a glance.

[mextremartini]

Hey Fox ! I've seen you're a long time dreadstill player. Could you please share your UR list??
I'm revisiting this archtype, looks awesome

[rlesko]

Why do lists typically play standstill? Just to recover from the card disadvantage of stifling your own trigger?

[Hopo]

Why do lists typically play standstill? Just to recover from the card disadvantage of stifling your own trigger?

Yes. When you play a deck with Force of Will and Stiflenought, you desperately need something to fill your hand or lose the game in topdeck mode. Other options have historically been Dark Confidant, Treasure Cruise and -- that's about it.

There were even times when both Confidant and Standstill were played together. I loved those times.

[Fox]

Hey Fox ! I've seen you're a long time dreadstill player. Could you please share your UR list??
I'm revisiting this archtype, looks awesome
Lands (21)
-Factory x4
-Wasteland x4
-Scalding Tarn x4
-other blue fetches x3
-Volc x3
-Island x2
-Mountain x1

Creatures (12)
-Delver x4
-Dreadnought x4
-Grim Lavamancer x2
-Snapcaster x2

Spells (27)
-Standstill x4
-Stifle x4
-FoW x4
-Daze x4
-Brainstorm x4
-Izzet Charm x2
-Bolt x2
-Wild Slash x1 (I like having access to 'no damage prevention' clause)
-Illusionary Mask x1
-Trickbind x1

SB:
-Flusterstorm x2
-Surgical Extraction x2
-Pyroblast x2
-Abrade x2
So far these are SB cards that should pretty much always show up in any U/R list, regardless of archetype. The rest of the cards are heavily influenced by personal preference, and for me that means favoring polarizing effects rather than generic applicability.
-Divert x2
-Commandeer x1
-Misdirection x1
-Dack Fayden x1
-Teferi's Realm x1
-Teferi's Response x1

There's room to change some things around, but among the better options are +1 Trickbind main, making room for a Dack in the main, SB Torpor Orb (in spite of SCM), and honestly Nimble Obstructionist would probably be a good addition to the 75 (particularly vs Storm). Also note that all of these suggestions are also geared at attacking U/W in particular.

Unfortunately red is a pretty boring, straightforward color so you don't have the creative space to effectively use a card like Vision Charm. On the plus side, all that Dreadnought is with these colors is a really good burn spell. Access to the tempo swing the threat of 12 damage provides [i.e. not having to have a reactive kills 5 toughness plan and being able to race combo, if necessary] in conjunction with Standstill allows for unconventional lines of play, which are not native to other U/R archetypes.

[Mastikor]

Hi Dreadnought lovers,
yesterday I took down a small local tourney with the following list:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Charm
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Smash To Smithereens
1 Divert

I ended being 5-1, beating Dark Depths, Soldier stompy, Elves, Grixis Delver, Deathblade and loosing to Jund. It was very fun to play, Dreadnougts were dreadful and noughty and were kicking butt! A true christmas deck:) cheers

[Ninjastill]

Hi Dreadnought lovers,
yesterday I took down a small local tourney with the following list:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Charm
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Smash To Smithereens
1 Divert

I ended being 5-1, beating Dark Depths, Soldier stompy, Elves, Grixis Delver, Deathblade and loosing to Jund. It was very fun to play, Dreadnougts were dreadful and noughty and were kicking butt! A true christmas deck:) cheers

Love the list, any more updates on it? very tempted to build it as Dreadnought is bae :)

[Fox]

Looks like Rivals of Ixalan is spoiled, time to see if any are playable...
-Silent Gravestone is quite reasonable yard hate that plays nicely with Grim Lavamancer while impeding Loam, DRS, and SCM.
-Blood Sun is going to see legacy play, and the pricetag is probably fine. The real winner with this card is City of Traitors since you'd untap with one more mana than you'd get from resolving a Blood Moon. Not really a card we'd run, but not a bad card to own.
-Blazing Hope is probably worth speculating on (as much as a StP analog can be worth doing so). This card is actually playable, and should definitely be considered by any deck that was previously trying to use Delver + StP. Expecting to see modern Death's Shadow move towards Esper with a card like this.
-Release to the Wind seems like a fine card to mess up removal or to EoT, against say a Gurmag, to allow a Standstill to come down. A bit overpriced at the moment though.
-Reckless Rage is fairly awful but I guess in some backwards way it deals 4 damage to a player via trample. Probably never running this card, but it does some things with Illusionary Mask.
-Warkite Marauder is funny with Grim Lavamancer; maybe in modern. :tongue:

Bad cards b/c bad cards beat Counterbalance:
-Nezahal, Primal Tide, 'nuff said
-Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison is Sol-land playable with Dreadnought-type strategies.
-Timestream Navigator potentially represents a 1-card combo (with 6 mana) that forces an opponent to concede the game or accept a draw post-JTMS ult.

One of the more interesting things with the enrage mechanic is Desert keeps looking better and better...there isn't a deck yet, but it is becoming more playable.

-Siegehorn Ceratops is a card we're never running, but it's way better than Longtusk Cub for that standard energy deck - there is nothing worse than having burn spells that can only target creatures vs an opponent who isn't using creatures. This card makes all those terrible standard burn spells playable, in the same way that Dreadnought gives Stifle a goldfishing application. This feels like the most underpriced rare at this time, but Fleecemane Lion 2.0 might not be a supported color pair at this time in standard.

This is a pretty poor set so far in terms of legacy application, but looks fun to draft.

[Fox]

The Dominaria update:
So Dreadnoughts are now historic, but very little is gained by this at this time.

Adventurous Impulse certainly interesting in a Delver-less approach heavy on green; an ideal cantrip for a face-down centric strategy.
Broken Bond reasonable green Disenchant with upside, particularly interesting with a variant that may run Quirion Ranger - this is only a support card but moves us closer to an idea of building Dreadnought around Stasis (allows for a phasing prison angle). The cards to support this idea don't exist yet at competitive costs.
Damping Sphere interesting symmetry breaker, but primarily a vintage only idea if you want to jam Dreadnoughts there with/without incorporating Workshop. There is this interesting idea of ramping out enablers with Workshop then turning artifact-only mana into conditionless [???] colorless later. Waste of a sideboard slot in legacy.
Divest fringe playable if you're maxed on Thoughtseize, but likely far worse than Annul which see little to no play.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria I guess if you don't want to buy JTMS this does things? The ult is certainly more oppressive as it hits lands, and the -3 can answer problems in a way JTMS can't. I'd love it if legacy was in a place where they crack Standstill on our EoT nuking 3 lands and then we cast the no value Brainstorms just to dump on more triple Stone Rain, but it's a 5 mana card.
Tempest Djinn playable in a budget mono-U build.

Honorable mentions:
Zhalfirin Void if there was some way to bounce this land reliably...and, if Mishra's Factory and Wasteland didn't exist. :tongue:
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle almost an idiotic way to cheat in a Dreadnought....almost. Ignoring the overcosting for a moment, this is at least interesting within the context of a Torpor Orb as it puts a trigger on cast.
Shalai, Voice of Plenty we don't run cards with effects like Guardian Beast nor Padeem, Consul of Innovation, but this one certainly has the best body and Karakas implications. Unplayable, but interesting.
Lingering Phantom too cute and useless vs DRS, but interesting draw/discard CA engine with Dreadnought in the mix. Had it cost 3 or less, there would have been a casual tiny leaders niche in a Silas Renn, Seeker Adept deck.
Healing Grace unplayable but hilarious vs deathtouch mechanic.
Garna, the Bloodflame move over Kolaghan and Flayer, manaless and vintage dredge has a new toy...except they go to hand, so it's worthless to Dread Return. :laugh:

So the UG variants got better on the dude-centric periphery while that color scheme remains unplayable. The theoretical UG approach is still failing to offer up an imbalanced angle of attack which can preclude the use of black [DRS]. The UW approach is already ridiculous and this set just offers up even more degenerate, uplayable spice. None of this spice really complements a competitive UW build as it doesn't really complement an E-Tutor build, but if you ever wanted to incorporate Auriok Salvagers, you'd have different graveyard-independent options at 4cmc. Very little black and even less red implications coming from Dominaria; particularly saddened by no competitive way to incorporate the outrageous flavor of Phyrexian Scriptures with Dreadnought (as printed it's a trashy Abyss).

Anyways at GP Seattle I ran UW Dreadnought which is easiest to understand with the title of Dread Monastery of the Unseen, but mostly referred to as Manifest Destiny. Got knocked out of day 2 contention in round seven, but went 5-3. In order the GP went:
r1: 0-2 vs miracles.
r2: 2-1 vs R/G Lands.
r3: 2-1 vs Rabble/Moon stompy.
r4: 2-0 vs maverick.
r5: 1-2 vs maverick.
r6: 2-1 vs B/R Reanimator.
r7: 1-2 vs grixis thieves. (no Dack -2 were allowed)
r8: 2-1 vs TES.

Aside from the loss in r5 to maverick, these match wins/losses are expected. Miracles/bad miracles (meaning UWx Blade), Delver (generally grixis), and czech pile/czech petty criminals (thieves) are generally unfavorable matchups. Opposing decks that have to "do something" are highly likely to lose, particularly vs a Dreadnought variant that can tutor up skill-less white cards. Despite not ending the day x-2, the vast majority of matchups made that day of legacy really quite enjoyable as the deck would really prefer to exist in a legacy format where SCM, Delver, DRS, and Counterbalance are all banned (which of couse will never happen, but damn the torpedoes). Definitely a good showing for a deck with exactly one designer. :cool:

[Rood]

Does anyone have any Young Pyromancer or Eldrazi Mimic
Testing? Im officially back playing Legacy again so ill let you guys know if I hit up any tournaments

[Fox]

Relying on Young Pyromancer creates a problem where you've got too many 2 mana threats and too few 1 mana threats. Playing UR with Delver, Grim Lavamancer, and SCM alongside Factory/Standstill generally provides a better gameplan rather than a Dreadnought deck somewhere between UR Delver/Grixis Delver and Blue Moon (except slower, and still wanting to run Daze). Not only does Grim Lavamancer get deployed before the idea of a turn 2 Standstill, but it is also exceptionally dangerous for DRS decks - forcing them to discard removal or even the old Grim to Tourach as they have to burn the FoW. As a quick note about sideboard cards, Lavamancer works incredibly well with Silent Gravestone...so while while you certainly could run Gravestone and YP, you're not breaking symmetry in any unified, anti-DRS direction (except perhaps backwards, as Gravestone doesn't generate YP triggers).

Eldrazi Mimic can certainly cheat in a Dreadnought, but that card doesn't win games when it isn't paired with Chalice/Sol Land. At 2cmc your Dreadnought enabler shouldn't be rewarding opponents for playing creature hate; there are much more disruptive or specialized cards which can accomplish this (and some of these like Trickbind still pitch to FoW). As far as colorless 2 mana enablers go, a Dreadnought deck should be more interested in changing the rules and cards like Torpor Orb, Ill. Mask, and even Sundial of the Infinite will accomplish this in more fundamentally unfair ways.

Legacy is getting clogged with DRS into value scum (Strix, SCM) at the moment. This isn't the best environment to introduce a 2-mana sorcery speed 2/1 and hope for the best. That stat line is meaningless against every creature they run, and that translates to: they will have removal sitting in their hand waiting for you to play a Dreadnought, because they don't have to care about whatever you're doing at 2 mana. Play Lavamancer and some Izzet Charms (even a Dack Fayden or two if you really want), and save your Bolts for Leovold/PWs/opponent's life total. I think even Walking Ballista would outperform either of your 2-drops @Rood.

[Yan]

Not sure if this still qualifies under this thread, but I'd like to think that it does. So, I used to play a lot DreadStill back in the days (even after it was no longer considered good anymore). I got tired of fighting against every deck having a suitable removal for my 12/12, so I dropped the deck and moved to a regular Landstill. Nothing wrong with that deck but I 've still been trying to configure a Dreadstill list that I actually like, but haven't been able to. But then it hit me. What if I've been blindly forcing a Dreadnought deck, when the core of the deck works just fine without it? I quickly threw a list together, tweaked a bit from here and there and started to think about the sideboard. Then it hit me again, I could still run Dreadnoughts and have them be even better than before, because they could surprise people out of the sideboard.

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Other blue fetches

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 True Name Nemesis

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrade

SB:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrade
2 Vendilion Clique

Some cards that didn't make it but I considered were Snapcasters in the main (I dislike it with Daze). EE, needle and relic were all valid considerations for the sideboard and might still make it in, but at the moment they didn't feel necessary.

Feel free to comment on the deck. I'll definitely test more with it and hopefully this will light up the deck for me again.

[Rood]

I'm running a similiar list to yours Yan but I don't maindeck Lavamancer I still play with the
dreadnought maindeck. My creature base is

4x Delver
4x Nought
3x True-Name

I also play the 4th copy of the true name in the board just to deal with really removal heavy lists.
Tested out Thing In the Ice and the conclusion was...it wasn't good enough in this deck. I DO however
play with Gitaxian Probe as a 3 of. I think the cards nuts in this shell.

[Rood]

I've been doing alot of testing with my new list and have been having alot of success
Here's what I've been using

4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Gitaxian Probe

1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dismember
2 Misdirection
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth

True Name is a workhorse in this deck. Literally gives you free outs to otherwise difficult matchups (Decay decks)
The board is a work in progress but it's coming along nicely. I've been having alot of sucess with the Dismembers and
Misdirections so far. Pierce/REB is for combo or tempo. The Extra TNN helps for our hard matchups postboard.

Tell me what you guys think?

[Michael Keller]

I've been doing alot of testing with my new list and have been having alot of success
Here's what I've been using

4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Gitaxian Probe

1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dismember
2 Misdirection
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth

True Name is a workhorse in this deck. Literally gives you free outs to otherwise difficult matchups (Decay decks)
The board is a work in progress but it's coming along nicely. I've been having alot of sucess with the Dismembers and
Misdirections so far. Pierce/REB is for combo or tempo. The Extra TNN helps for our hard matchups postboard.

Tell me what you guys think?

I like the deck, but I don't like two Volcanic Islands. I know they can be protected with Stifle, but those should be saved at all costs for your Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. I would add a third in the main, as such so that you're not cut off (especially in games two and three) from your Blasts and Bolts if you get Wasted out and are left with dead cards in hand.

Four TNN in the seventy-five seems like complete overkill. Two in the main is a reasonable number; you don't want to be tapping down three mana during your main phase with all those reactive cards in your hand. I would play two, and then a single Clique main for a follow-up Standstill.

I've been playing a ton of Standstill lately, and shifted away from Probe. It just hasn't impressed me in these particular types of decks, because I want a better card in that slot that does something.

[Fox]

Izzet Charm is a card you should be looking into over Spell Snare and Dismember (unless you're playing in an extremely Goyf-heavy meta); this card is also nice against cards like Prelate on 1. Bring Fetches up to 7-8 (cutting 1-2 basic island) and swap one basic Island into a basic Mountain. Having TNN over Snapcaster is interesting; keep tabs on that during your games by asking what happens in this game if it was an SCM. Grim Lavamancer should be in the main as a 2x, but that means you're probably cutting Probe - you don't need to see a fair deck's hand to know this card ruins their plans unless they remove it asap.

For sideboard you should have 2x Abrade (Spell Pierce seems like the worst card in there). Your deck isn't providing answering problems which prison pieces can impose; you're on this rather linear merfolk'y strategy where an assumption seems to have been made that people won't interfere with your plan of turning creatures sideways. There's not really a problem with that approach, but it's a bit unclear as to why you locked yourself into the relentless 1-for-1'ing (Pierce, Dismember, and to a lesser extent Echoing) over disruptive elements which also advance the Dreadnought plan.

One last thing is that you should have about 2-2.5 cards that cheat Dreadnought into play per Dreadnought; your current list can only reasonably support two.

[Xod]

Went top 4 on a 25 person tournament. Went 3-1-1 in the Swiss, losing and drawing to DnT (bad variance, mana screw/mulls) but my wins were also lucky, against lands (!), Miracles and Dragon Stompy. Won against the number one seed on DnT. And lost in the semi-finals 1-2 against enchantress. If I had a commandeer I would have won :cool:

Went with a standard list of Fox with the TNN from Rood (didn't have snappy's and was quite fond of playing TNN)
Will post the exact list later (and maybe a small report)
Short version, I think I lost every game where I started with a one lander, or had to mull because of colorless lands. Won the games easily where I had 4 or even 5 lands in opening hands. My luck was really swingy.

[Xod]

As promised, the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
1 Vision Charm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

4 Standstill

1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factories
3 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
2 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Teferi's Response
1 Reality Ripple
1 True-Name Nemesis

Couldn't find the Trickbind before the tournament, but Vision Charm did more than expected.
Will be changing 1 misdirection by a commandeer, and probably the Charm with a trickbind.

I put the TNN last minute in the last slot against Miracles, game 1: Miracles, turns out if they can't find plow, and I keep drawing al my factories, it's a good matchup :-)

[Rood]

Good work Xod! Enchantress is a pretty not good matchup for us...you Really need a ton of
Counterspells to make that matchup work. Spell Snare/Pierce are pretty good at slowing them down. You basically
need to pray for a turn 2 Nought with 1-2 Counterspells in hand. Also they run stuff like Moat so TNN isn't exceptional
either vs them. Some Suggestions for destroying that matchup

-Pierces/Snares
-EE (Explosives) Echoing Truth

Standstill is the key towards beating that deck. It's our bread and butter here.

[Fox]

Nicely done, too bad about Enchantress though it's actually one of our better matchups (though any game loss will feel bad since it's generally to Emrakul or the 4/4 angels enchantment). How did the mana base, Izzet Charm, and Grim Lavamancers work out?

@Rood notice the Vision Charm in the maindeck, and how Enchantress plays Utopia Sprawl - so even in game one, they can just lose to having 2+ Enchant Forest in their opener. There is also the enchantment to beat all enchantments in the board: Teferi's Realm - if this ever resolves (preferably protected with Stifle on their next turn) and makes it to your next upkeep, your Enchantress opponent is never going to have any global enchantments on your turn (and they'll never have a sorcery speed window of interaction with Realm again, so they better be playing Cast Out). Also in this matchup they only run about 3 wincons, two of which are counterable and the other is Emmy - an inexperienced pilot who ever discards Emmy to handsize generally auto-loses to Stifle vs the shuffle trigger; in a postboard game you still have the ability to hit Serra Sanctum with Surgical and it can be rather impossible for them to assemble 15 mana before decking out (you enter a competition of GSZ vs countermagic which terminates in "oh your deck is only 4 GSZ? Vision Charm, mill 4 -> Standstill, and uh I'll crack it." Double Standstill would also deck them out.)

UR is a bit more boring and straightforward that UB versions, but pillow fort decks are a large reason for why I choose to run Wild Slash over a Bolt (this allows combat damage through Maze/Chasm/Solitary/Energy Field/blocking TNNs and Mother of Runes). UB gets DRS (there we'd use Teferi's Realm to stock a graveyard through active RiP), and in these strategies I'm much happier to run a card like Mind Bend and attack a strategy of fetching around Wasteland, and break their back if they were ever foolish enough to cast Choke.

This is a rather large point of differentiation between your list (@Rood) and @Xod's. Your deck plays more like a cross between mono-U Delver (with Standstill) and Blue Moon (no Moon of course, but certainly the normal red cards of these lists), then you have added 4x Stifle and 4x Dreadnought...and it doesn't make a lot of sense how the moment you Stifle a fetch, a copy of Dreadnought will lose any ability to be put into play. Your deck's playstyle must be congruent with mono-U Delver/Blue Moon, and we see that in the 1-for-1 nature of the decklist, and even your last post you're talking about how you have to have all this 1-for-1 removal-based interaction vs Enchantress. That all makes sense for your deck, but dedicated Dreadnought decks don't answer problems [ideally], we ignore and invalidate them while warping the rules until the only text on Dreadnought is "casting cost :1:. Trample. 12/12." - bending those rules generally cripples opposing decks as their cards stop doing what they say they do. Enchantress is a deck that has to do something, and it's pretty easy to disrupt, because the Dreadnought deck has the freedom to let cards like Enchantress effects resolve and stick around because it can invalidate their overarching game plan they want to draw into. The same can be said of Elves, where one of the rarest plays is to counter a Glimpse, because we just don't have to care.

[Xod]

Yeah I absolutely got the Wild Slash Idea. That Mind Bend is awesome.

Must admit that against the Enchantress I was countering the early growths and such, to keep him from ramping and buying time for me. Which of course is horribly wrong (I get that now), and I just need to get those enchantments that exile Noughty countered. (also misplayed the misdirection in that game, again, the commandeer would be awesome) Btw, lost the game with him having 4 cards left in his deck and my topcard was the vision charm, dammit :-)

Any ways, it's a cool deck, used to play UB as well, with 4 stifles and 3 charms, and 3 Tombstalkers, charm is amazing in that deck, or you enable protect your Nought, or you have fuel for Stalker.

2 small points:
- I saw in some earlier posts about phasing a Marit Lage out, actually with the rules from last year August, phasing a token out, doesn't take it out of exisistence. *sad face*
- If the opponent has a CotV on 1 and you have an Illusionary Mask out, if I read the rulings correctly, do you need to pay 2 mana to cast that dreadnought (or another creature) face down? Because it does actually gets cast and can be countered. So in this case of X as 1, it get's countered by CotV on 1?

[Fox]

2 small points:
- I saw in some earlier posts about phasing a Marit Lage out, actually with the rules from last year August, phasing a token out, doesn't take it out of exisistence. *sad face*
- If the opponent has a CotV on 1 and you have an Illusionary Mask out, if I read the rulings correctly, do you need to pay 2 mana to cast that dreadnought (or another creature) face down? Because it does actually gets cast and can be countered. So in this case of X as 1, it get's countered by CotV on 1?

Yeah they really screwed up with the phasing rule change to make it token friendly (which makes no sense as these strategies are not meant to be played together)...Nothing got easier to understand in terms of Batterskull/Germ as you now have to go deep into the comprehensive rules to figure out what happens when Teferi's Protection tells both objects to phase out directly; if both did the equip would be broken, but if an object would phase out both directly and indirectly, it phases out indirectly instead - see didn't they make the rules easier....They actually increased the amount of times people have to navigate direct vs indirect phasing, instead of "just exile the token." :laugh:

The net effect of the change can best be summed up as "we're buffing the Marit Lage token" which is idiotic on a card that got banned out of a format [modern] before ever being legal, and doesn't need the help anyways. There's a litany of other problems with this change, but there's an entire thread on it somewhere. Probably not a productive use of time though since one side argues phasing is a status effect just like tapping/untapping [which is full of holes] versus the game mechanics dictating that it's a zone change in everything but formal name.

The cmc of a face-down card is always 0, regardless of how much mana you've dumped into the Mask. There is also a difference between mana activating the Mask and the actual casting, which is why it doesn't play well with cards like Obscuring Aether.

[Mr. Safety]

Hi all, just making a quick foray into a Dreadstill deck. I am 4x Force of Will short of having a really decent list, working on it. My question to the folks in the thread: is a splash color necessary? I know red offers a lot of great options but the core of the deck is mono-blue. I'm trying to keep the core the same but use Dismember instead of Lightning Bolts.

My starting list:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Nimble Obstructionist
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Standstill
3x Dismember
2x Spell Pierce
3x Counterspell
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
9x Island

Sideboard
4x Misdirection
2x Echoing Truth
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Winter Orb
1x Vendilion Clique


So the Counterspells are there until I can get Forces. As you are probably thinking, yes, it's because I don't have blue duals that I want to make it mono-blue. I don't think the tradeoff is that severe for only Islands. This is definitely in the 'work-in-progress' stage. Curious what you think could be done, short of splashing a 2nd color, to make it better.

[Yan]

Curious what you think could be done, short of splashing a 2nd color, to make it better.
True-Name Nemesis and more fetch lands for starters. Engineered Explosives for chalice and other things, Vapor Snag for marit lage. Maybe Vendilion Clique too. 3 Dismembers seems like a lot, I would start cutting from there and those Ponders (as you can see, other decks listed in this thread don’t play ponders at all).

[Fox]

True-Name Nemesis and more fetch lands for starters. Engineered Explosives for chalice and other things, Vapor Snag for marit lage. Maybe Vendilion Clique too. 3 Dismembers seems like a lot, I would start cutting from there and those Ponders (as you can see, other decks listed in this thread don’t play ponders at all).

To follow up on that first point, no deck in legacy should use Brainstorm without a minimum of ~8 shuffle effects which push a game plan forward. This is most often fetching a land, but can include less intuitive interactions like Brainstorm -> Entomb. While Ponder does shuffle, the sequence of Bstorm into Ponder is tempo negative [on same turn] - so you're either playing Bstorm as a sorcery or you're only going to flush away one card; just be careful about counting Ponder as a key component of 8 shuffle effects. The eight, let's call them, "hard" shuffle effects isn't an official rule but looking across blue decks that perform well with cantrip cartel, but it's definitely a common theme one can quantify.

As far as TNN + Delver in the same deck goes, look at what works in Delver decks and try to stay around 12-14 creatures total particularly because, unlike Delver decks, you're running more lands and Standstills which are antagonistic to flipping Delver. Engineered Explosives seems highly questionable in 2 color decks, and pointless in a 1 color deck. This list is already playing from behind so the blowout potential of Nimble Obstructionist, particularly under Standstill is far superior to Clique. As far as combo goes, there is only one card Storm decks use that can strip creatures: Cabal Therapy - they cannot win a game through Obstructionist in hand [with mana] as they will never resolve a storm trigger. I agree with @Yan on the Dismembers; you're not getting ahead by casting this card. The presence of Ponder should be looked at, but the more pressing issue is picking up lands [Daze] in a deck with Counterspell; those really have to be FoW.

If you go U/R Grim Lavamancer will outperform Dismember, but you still have to solve the creature amount vs Delver issue. Izzet Charm is so much better than Pierce as you really can't stop in a Dreadnought deck to have kill spells that exist only to kill things; Lightning Bolt is playable in the U/R shell because it also hits players in a deck that is very much designed to count to 20, sometimes in chunks of 12. If you don't want to go red, look at a spell like Reality Shift which functions as removal, protection, and sometimes as a Stifle-effect - always choose hybrid engine/removal before dead cards like Vapor Snag. That slot was previously Reality Ripple, but due to poor rules update this spell no longer kills Marit Lage.

In the board the total of four Misdirection effects, single Clique, and 2x Ratchet Bomb is perfectly reasonable. I'm not sure what Cage and Tormnod's are doing in there since a deck that can turn two a 12/12 with interfering countermagic. This strategy is more than enough to dismantle yard combos of any variety; Surgical is the card you want here. Echoing Truth is fairly useless [conventionally good cards do not perform well in unconventional decks]; Teferi's Realm solves more problems, Teferi's Response creates bigger blowouts, and if U/R just play Abrade. Winter Orb is as self-crippling as Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

[Mr. Safety]

Awesome responses, thanks! I will up fetch count, cut ponders, acquire forces, try vapor snag, etc.

[Rood]

If i played mono blue Id have 4 snags and 2 dismembers with the 3rd dismember in the SB.
Back to Basics is also very good...id try at least 2 SB. Counterspell is bad in this deck...too many colorless sources
And hard to cast to negate their 2 drop. Replace with Spell Snare or something else.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for that! I'm at 3/3 Dismember/Vapor Snag ATM; once again, without Force of Will I have to be creative on how I patch that hole. Spell Snare seems quite good, I was also thinking about Dispel, but I haven't seen Dispel anywhere, which I'm taking as a sign to avoid it.

Some further questions:

1) Is 7 fetchlands enough with Brainstorm? I have 7 blue fetches, it seems ok to me. How much do I lose without the 8th fetch?
2) In the absence of Force of Will is Misdirection a better substitute maindeck than Spell Snare/Counterspell/etc?
3) Is Mana Leak just plain bad? It seems fine in a format as low-to-the-ground as legacy is, and especially with mana denial. Easier to cast with colorless lands.
4) Stubborn Denial and Not of this World seem a little too niche to me, but both work very well at protecting Dreadnought (minus Abrupt Decay.) Thoughts on those?

For reference, I'm definitely working towards a set of Forces, I just need to convert other staples (extra Tarmogoyfs etc) to hopefully avoid actually dropping money on them.

[Fox]

7 fetches should be fine. Mixing Misdirection and cards like Divert won't help that much vs storm, SnT, or JTMS but they generally blow out other strategies. If you use these effects you'll have access to alternative lines like turn 1 suicide Dreadnought -> redirect Reanimate/Animate Dead to Dreadnought. I would suggest either of those or Flusterstorm/Commandeer before Mana Leak...I'd even prefer Psychic Rebuttal (this one actually bounces back a Duress or K-Comm) or something off the wall like Sundial/Pact of Negation/Arcane Denial. Without FoW, I'd advise against trying to catch up with cards like Pierce/Snare; use cards that go for the win.

Strategies and cards like Stubborn Denial and NotW, are generally opposed to non-UB approaches; mono-U and UR are not creative enough colors to get away with strategies like this in large part because they don't have undercosted ferocious creatures (beyond Dreadnought), nor do these colors have ideas of incorporating Dark Confidant...nor do other colors have the option to do the Stifle trick with a card like Hecatomb. Technically UG would also work, but the green cards do not yet exist which could provide adequate specialization [also DRS exists and forces UG to be BUG, destroying creative space].

You'll probably find more wins by letting opponents beat themselves with their own unimaginative interactive spells, rather than creating an environment that undercosts stack interaction (those days mostly passed when they banned DTT and allowed fair, grindy nonsense back into the format).

[Mr. Safety]

7 fetches should be fine. Mixing Misdirection and cards like Divert won't help that much vs storm, SnT, or JTMS but they generally blow out other strategies. If you use these effects you'll have access to alternative lines like turn 1 suicide Dreadnought -> redirect Reanimate/Animate Dead to Dreadnought. I would suggest either of those or Flusterstorm/Commandeer before Mana Leak...I'd even prefer Psychic Rebuttal (this one actually bounces back a Duress or K-Comm) or something off the wall like Sundial/Pact of Negation/Arcane Denial. Without FoW, I'd advise against trying to catch up with cards like Pierce/Snare; use cards that go for the win.

Strategies and cards like Stubborn Denial and NotW, are generally opposed to non-UB approaches; mono-U and UR are not creative enough colors to get away with strategies like this in large part because they don't have undercosted ferocious creatures (beyond Dreadnought), nor do these colors have ideas of incorporating Dark Confidant...nor do other colors have the option to do the Stifle trick with a card like Hecatomb. Technically UG would also work, but the green cards do not yet exist which could provide adequate specialization [also DRS exists and forces UG to be BUG, destroying creative space].

You'll probably find more wins by letting opponents beat themselves with their own unimaginative interactive spells, rather than creating an environment that undercosts stack interaction (those days mostly passed when they banned DTT and allowed fair, grindy nonsense back into the format).

If going UB, has anyone attempted a Death's Shadow build? With fetches and shocklands it seems ridiculously easy to get him into big threat range, and with 8x big threats, Not of this World and Stubborn Denial get a lot better. It actually seems like a valid budget option if Death's Shadow becomes a legitimate legacy card.

[Xod]

Fox, I don't see how Wild Slash is any good against TNN or Mother (because of trample going through).

Also how does teferi's realm protect you from sorcery speed interaction?

As a sidenote, would Devastation Tide be a good 1 off in this deck? In the side or main. It is a answer to everything. You don't need to cast it if you draw it, you can brainstorm it back, and if draw of an standstill it you can still remove troublesome permanent. I think it's the best with 4 mana open. Cast the tide for miracle trigger, and then play a standstill or Noughty + Stifle.

If you want to add green, I played a mossnought deck a while back, that is also an option.

[Mr. Safety]

Fox, I don't see how Wild Slash is any good against TNN or Mother (because of trample going through).

Also how does teferi's realm protect you from sorcery speed interaction?

As a sidenote, would Devastation Tide be a good 1 off in this deck? In the side or main. It is a answer to everything. You don't need to cast it if you draw it, you can brainstorm it back, and if draw of an standstill it you can still remove troublesome permanent. I think it's the best with 4 mana open. Cast the tide for miracle trigger, and then play a standstill or Noughty + Stifle.

If you want to add green, I played a mossnought deck a while back, that is also an option.

What were you hiding under Mosswort Bridge? Emrakul? Was there a Show and Tell backup plan?

[Fox]

Fox, I don't see how Wild Slash is any good against TNN or Mother (because of trample going through).

Also how does teferi's realm protect you from sorcery speed interaction?

As a sidenote, would Devastation Tide be a good 1 off in this deck? In the side or main. It is a answer to everything. You don't need to cast it if you draw it, you can brainstorm it back, and if draw of an standstill it you can still remove troublesome permanent. I think it's the best with 4 mana open. Cast the tide for miracle trigger, and then play a standstill or Noughty + Stifle.

If you want to add green, I played a mossnought deck a while back, that is also an option.

Wild Slash is more there for a heavy Factory presence being fogged by TNN. That rarely happens and this card is more about ignoring pillow fort cards like Glacial Chasm, Energy Field, Solitary Confinement, and Maze of Ith. One damage lost by swapping a single Bolt for Wild Slash only costs win %age overall if you're facing non-stop Leovold; it's an easy way to make almost no sacrifice to access a novel way to win games. There is also the fringe option to go Dreadnought -> trigger on stack, Wild Slash -> sac, and attack with creatures already on board (Bolt can't create pseudo-Stifle lines of Dreadnought play).

Realm gives opponent [discussing opponent on Enchantress] one turn to interact, then every upkeep you break symmetry and name enchantments - meaning they never get to see it at sorcery speed again. It protects itself, not you the player; it also obliterates any chance for opponents to protect themselves with stupid enchantment effects. Realm also turns nonsense like Humility and Overwhelming Splendor into Stifle effects for cheating in Dreadnoughts.

Rather than Dev. Tide, I'd almost rather side in Parallax Tide, nuke 5 of their basics and Stifle the single return to play trigger. Dev. Tide isn't an instant so it doesn't really solve problems and allow you to Standstill right after. If I'm running green in Dreadnought, I'd rather play Greater Good; really what we're waiting for here is Momentous Fall [instant] to arrive at Life's Legacy cost. Mosswort Bridge tricks seem easier to pull off with SnT or Doomsday -> Shelldock, and none of that seems more powerful than turning Dreadnought into quad-Ancestral. Other options in UG are viable, but need more cards that don't exist yet so phasing/stasis prison and face-down centric strategies aren't playable yet. Technically phasing prison would be worth building with Sands of Time if they brought back mana burn.

@Mr. Safety having played Shadow alongside Dreadnought, it doesn't really work as well as either Shadow [by itself] or UB Dreadnought/Confidant. There are definitely possibilities that can be built around; but as with UG strategies above, we're waiting on cards that don't exist yet. The concept is the same as Greater Good where for 1 mana you have a window with the number "12" on the table and you ask "how do I translate this P/T to 4x casting of Healing Salve/Dark Ritual/Lightning Bolt/Ancestral Recall" (multiplying Wild Growth is fairly pointless ~ see also Varolz). In the case of Shadow and life shenanigans we have seen two cards in magic [unplayable] which pair "when you gain x, opponent loses x" (within the context of sacrificing a Dreadnought to gain 12 at instant speed) and that's probably what you'd want to be able to build around. The nice thing about that concept is that they just printed Diamond Valley on the backside of a card that does something: Arguel's Blood Fast - this strategy is one that clearly favors Dreadnought + Shadow.

edit: one more thing about Devastation Tide, I'd rather cast Reins of Power take their board and sac everything to a Dreadnought regardless of any amount of indestructibility or protection if we're living in christmasland. The main problem here isn't so much than mana-cost [let's be honest, you're probably stealing a Deathrite], but that you kind of need to be able to deploy Dreadnought at instant speed to murder Marit Lage/Elves/Entreat angels as they try to go to combat.

[Xod]

Realm gives opponent [discussing opponent on Enchantress] one turn to interact, then every upkeep you break symmetry and name enchantments - meaning they never get to see it at sorcery speed again. It protects itself, not you the player; it also obliterates any chance for opponents to protect themselves with stupid enchantment effects. Realm also turns nonsense like Humility and Overwhelming Splendor into Stifle effects for cheating in Dreadnoughts.

Fox, I completely forgot that the Realm was only coming back in my untap step, sorry, brain fart :-)

@Mr. Safety, this is the list I played:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Devastation Tide
1 Reality Ripple
1 Vision Charm

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault

1 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 Mosswort Bridge
2 Island
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
4 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Teferi's Realm

With an end of the turn Lim Dul vault, you set up the kill and otherwise, blindly playing the bridge still gives you a very good chance of getting what you want (no in consideration that you can brainstorm something that you want there), since a Emmy or a Stifle/Ripple/Charm/Dreadnought is good enough. Play Dreadnought, in response to the trigger, activate Bridge and you either get Nought or Emrakul. And Emrakul counts as being casted.

[Xod]

Btw, against what decks do you use Commandeer against?
Sure against the decks where a misdirection won't work because the card states 'target opponent' or 'X an opponent controls'.

But do you also use it as FoW number 5 against permanent based decks like Food Chain or Show and Tell (stealing the Foodchain or Sneak Attack). If I read the ruling, it's also brilliant against PW's like Jace or Lily.

[Fox]

Commandeer is mostly for use against decks which are doing something too powerful that they can't control the damage when you turn their card against them. For example letting Reanimator go off, and then take control of [non-Exhume] reanimation effect to steal a Grisel. There are a number of linear combo decks which can't combat their own strategy, and because of that card quantity and value stops mattering. It's not just the Belchers of the format, but also any time you see someone trying to pull off things like hardcast Ugin, Counterbalance combo, decks that mind twist themselves and play Decay (Aggro Loam), decks using the card Sneak Attack (it's also just plain fun to activate Sneak knowing you can Stifle the sac trigger), and others.

Some other scenarios:
-This is a card you would bring in against Shardless, but not against Czech (they don't run draw 3's that are notorious for cracking Standstill, JTMS, and Decay).
-Would bring in vs TES, but not against ANT (ANT has much more discard, cards that dig into discard, and is much less likely to go all-in on cards like AdNaus or tutors/wishes). The only exception I make for ANT is if the pilot clearly hasn't mastered their deck or is prone to overboarding.
-Would not bring in vs Food Chain; the only way they can really win vs UR Dreadstill is Strix heavy openers which also dodge mana denial. They can certainly combo kill with Ballista, but their grindy plan of Manipulate Fate doesn't matter - like what are they going to do, put 12 toughness on the board, block a 12/12 and exile their guys so they can recast them and then take 12 trample to the face? Don't blow countermagic on cards that don't matter and you should have plenty of permission for the rest of what they're doing.
-Would bring this in vs decks that try to lock you out with non-creature enchantments and artifacts. Decks like these are notorious for gifting you ways to kill them through their lock; red prison decks for example can't stop playing Chandra-ToD, bridgewalker decks notoriously run Tezz.

Legacy is in a somewhat frustrating state right now where DRS + the value scum (Strix, Snapcaster, SFM) create environments hostile to decks that want to do neat things [that Dreadnought can exploit]. Then you have Delver, particularly variants with Probe/Therapy/Gurmag, also pushing out those same decks because they're dropping game enders on turn 1 instead of setup cards for a comprehensive strategy. The previous two strategies are naturally weak to Tundra (SCM/StP), and they mostly play infinite value Counterbalance which then really pushes out strategies Dreadnought decks want to play against. The current lack of creativity in legacy [Czech Pile's use of Hymn, Snap Hymn is particularly responsible] for cutting Commandeer for either another Divert or Misdirection in my sideboards of late.

[Xod]

so 2 Misdirection + 1 divert or the other way around would be better than 1 commandeer, 1 misdirection, 1 divert (in the current meta)

[Mr. Safety]

So with feedback from the fantastic folks here, this is my new list until I get Forces:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Vapor Snag
2x Dismember
2x Counterspell
2x Misdirection

4x Wasteland
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
7x Island

Sideboard
2x Misdirection
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Dismember
5x open


So I cut ponder, added 3 more fetches, added 2x Mishra's Factory (can't believe I missed this one...), maindecked Misdirection x2, cut to only 2 counterspells (still good late game), and used Spell Snare to round out the counterspell suite. The sideboard is just a guess, and I took the advice of cutting cages for Surgicals. I didn't put in Vision Charm/Trickbind simply because I'm trying to use Obstructionist as Stifle 5+6 (and as additional threats.) This is also why only 2 factories instead of 4. I'm still iffy on TNN; it's not a budget issue, I just despise the card in general. Again, I know it needs FoW's, but any other advice, especially on the sideboard, would be greatly appreciated. What are people's thoughts on Snapcaster Mage in this style of deck?

EDIT: Pact of Negation? Submerge? Invasive Surgery? Are any of these cards any good?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So please explain how Nimble Obstructionist furthers your plan. Phyrexian Dreadnought has a triggered ability that you control, I don't understand how this works in your favor.

Also, I was reading rulings and it sounded like Planeswalker abilities can't be stifled? That can't be correct, can it?

[colo]

Afaiui: Nimble Obstructionist counters opponents' abilities without breaking Standstill.

Walkers' abilities are merely activated abilities. You can counter their effect, but not their cost being paid (i. e. loyalty counters being placed on/removed from them).

[Fox]

So please explain how Nimble Obstructionist furthers your plan. Phyrexian Dreadnought has a triggered ability that you control, I don't understand how this works in your favor.

Also, I was reading rulings and it sounded like Planeswalker abilities can't be stifled? That can't be correct, can it?

Still a flash 3/1 if you want it, without needing :u::u:. Stifles enemy Wasteland activation under Standstill. Can hit fetches as well if you are on the mana denial plan. Clique has a beneficial ETB in a deck that would rather have Torpor Orb in play at all times. Clique doesn't offer the ability win games outright, it has a generically good effect (in a Dreadnought shell, particularly a non-optimized list, you'll go from losing to losing less hard, but still losing). In terms of winning outright, Obstructionist can do things like: prevent PW ults and hit storm triggers (Therapy is the only card they run that can get this out of hand).

When you're making Dreadnought decks, there is a much higher need for every card to interconnect, but also remain interchangeable towards a plan that wins games [protected by countermagic]. One of the more deceptive things about UR Dreadstill is Bolt - that's not actually removal [sure, it can be], that's 3 points towards 20 damage. The deck is actually very similar to UR Delver, except that we can manipulate tempo by combining mana denial, Standstill plans, and threatening chunks of 12 damage. Unless you're up against linear combo, making 12/12s is just a thing you can do, not a requirement. Nimble Obstructionist doesn't have to be able to 'do the thing' with Dreadnought, it fits in to all the other plans and in doing so it indirectly promotes the Dreadnought agenda. Unless I'm running Karakas and recursively targeting self with trigger or adding in some Leovold nonsense, I'd have very little interest in Clique; it's not reliable enough to act as double duress - and what's the point, draw the opponent into mana I've been denying?

[Xod]

Alpine Moon looks promising. Shutting of opponents Maze/Waste/Chasm/... Could be a good sideboard card against, but then again, they could crop into something else. (we have counters for that)

Anyways, with the DRS ban, I think I will replace that one off Izzet Charm by another Spell Pierce. Don't know yet, it has been good, but 2 mana, against 1 mana, for that extra flexibility is still a lot. I use Izzet charm as a spell pierce 85% of the time. 10% as a shock for creatures and 5% as a faithless looting.

Although I like that instant speed looting effect

[Mr. Safety]

With the format changing, will u/r players try to speed up their clock? I'm thinking Fling, chain lightning, etc, so it's more likely you can win in one turn?

[Xod]

Mmmm, fling is a very nice idea, you don't need a stifle to shoot 12 damage in their face.

What do you think Fox? 3 mana for 12 damage, or just as a protective spell against removal

I will try a one off.

[Mr. Safety]

Mmmm, fling is a very nice idea, you don't need a stifle to shoot 12 damage in their face.

What do you think Fox? 3 mana for 12 damage, or just as a protective spell against removal

I will try a one off.

It even makes me want to jam my steam vents and go red. I think in the absence if forces going more combo could be a reasonable direction. I was already dinging myself in groups of 4 life with dismember, why not steam vents instead? It also makes me want to play blood moon, but it kills my wastelands and factories.

[Fox]

Fling is fine, but you're a soft permission deck tapping down 3 mana and telling opponent to interact on the stack or take 12. It's hard to beat opponent soft permission (Fluster/Pierce/Daze) like this. The other idea of make the Dreadnought, holding up Fling until opponent goes to remove it or using it to deny lifelink is janky, but yes, it works here. The other noteworthy function is [regardless of resolving] putting a Factory in the bin rather than letting it be exiled or hit by Terminus; but this is kind of pointless without something like Crucible in play.

Mainboard Fling represents something you can do, but doesn't really push the deck's plans forward (mana denial, Standstill). I don't see a bad matchup [mainboard] getting that much better, and it's just another card that has to travel with Dreadnoughts to the sideboard. If Fling is in the board, there's very few matchups where I want this extra burn threat to come join the Dreadnoughts I'm leaving in - we're describing an opponent on a deck without countermagic or much discard (or an opponent who nukes their own life totals), and those should already be pretty good matchups. If you want more red cards, I'd stick with ones that primarily get you on the Standstill plan and then get turned on opponent life totals (like Bolt). Also at the 3 mana point, Fling is competing directly with a card like Dack Fayden/Snapcaster Mage/Search for Azcanta and indirectly competing with a JTMS or Chandra-ToD...honestly you might actually add Hazoret or Keranos to that list. I don't think going all-in on a card that wants to win on the spot is all that necessary in a Standstill shell, and with DRS freshly banned I'm definitely looking at mana denial as the most important focal point to generate higher win percentage; Trickbind as the fifth Stifle has never looked better.

@Mr. Safety, Blood Moon is so pointless for us, we can operate under enemy Blood Moon rather easily and have tech to phase it out on our turn postboard. Let opponents be the ones diluting their decks and time walking themselves by putting cards without clock on board. If you're trying to add in mana disruption bombs, the most important thing is that they kill basic lands: Ghost Quarter/Shadow of Doubt, Parallax Tide, Flashfires, Mana Vortex. It's certainly powerful, and funny, but I don't think things like this really pull their weight in the sideboard.

Edit in response to question below by @Mr. Safety: I generally prefer JVP over SCM due to no ETB and getting an untap step before going to recast a spell, except in variants either without Daze or with a lot of lands. SCM fits in UR with Standstill (despite Daze) and helps this deck get to 5 damage (SCM block/Bolt recast) which is important vs Goyf and Gurmag.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the reply. Snapcaster Mage? Good or no?

[Xod]

Edit in response to question below by @Mr. Safety: I generally prefer JVP over SCM due to no ETB and getting an untap step before going to recast a spell, except in variants either without Daze or with a lot of lands. SCM fits in UR with Standstill (despite Daze) and helps this deck get to 5 damage (SCM block/Bolt recast) which is important vs Goyf and Gurmag.

That, and you can buyback stifle effects for Nought or further manadenial/or protecting a factory against waste.

I play 2 TNN in it's spot, and it provides a similar function against Goyfs and Gurmag (although not destroying it immediatly). They are definitely all-stars in certain matchups, Eldrazi, DnT, Miracles, ... just to name a few. I filled my 15th slot in the sideboard by a 3rd copy, and so far I have never looked back.

My current list below (normally my mask is in the mail today, yay!)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Lightning Bolt
1 Wild Slash
1 Izzet Charm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

1 Illusionary Mask

4 Standstill

1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factories
3 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Commandeer
1 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Teferi's Response
1 Reality Ripple
1 True-Name Nemesis

I'm not sure about 2 things for now:

Reality Ripple, it's not what I want currently, but it helps disabling CotV on 1 (although only for a turn to get your Nougth through) can get a Bridge away, helps against Chasm/Maze, can get a Marit Lage away for a turn. It definitly has it merits, but you remove the lock/threat temporarely, so the turn you cast it (opponents turn) in your turn after, you need to do something game changing. So I might change it by another Abrade (CotV stings) or by an echoing truth.
Where to put that Trickbind? In what spot would I put it in? In the spot of the Spell Pierce or the Izzet Charm?

[JanoschEausH]

Does this deck really work out? I assume going Stifle + Naught and then being blown out by Fatal Push hast to suck :/

[Xod]

I haven't seen a push in the last 9 months or so. And that's why you have counter magic. Decay is more of an issue.

[Fox]

Does this deck really work out? I assume going Stifle + Naught and then being blown out by Fatal Push hast to suck :/

Yes it works out. Swords to Plowshares has existed since the game began, it is also incredibly rare to play unprotected Dreadnoughts into removal. Beyond two Surgical, we don't run yard hate because we race it - the more offensive/linear the combo, the better. DRS is banned and opponents have to expose mana-producing lands to see our hand, so the Stifle/Wasteland plan got a major boost. The most annoying thing for the deck is that Planeswalkers are a legal card type in this format.

@Xod I'd cut Pierce before Izzet Charm to make room for Trickbind. Going down to three Dreadnoughts is also fine since you're not able to recur Stifle. In the board Reality Ripple can come out, and Flusterstorm is probably a card we can consider dropping to a 1-of. When opting for TNN over SCM, there should definitely be a Torpor Orb in the board. If you cut Fluster, see what's in your local meta and choose between a Blast or Divert/Misdirection probably; good time to experiment though, so you could try any number of value-oriented cards (PW, Azcanta, etc) or hate (Sulfur Elemental, Sudden Demise, Mind Harness, Alpine Moon) in the other slot.

TNN should be fine if RUG Delver goes back to tier 1, which it probably should. I prefer SCM, but this is just choosing between two great cards.

[Xod]

I would rather not cut pierce due to it being an extra card to stop a CotV. On the other hand, I do get the added value of izzet charm. But sometimes, if you only have 3 mana, creating that Nought with one mana open for the pierce does wonders. But I'm guessing you are right. Especially since Trickbind has more applications and protects you from counters.

I think I will rather play a Sudden Demise, as a solide sweeper against many decks, and/or Alpine Moon, against our trouble matches. (is Mind Harness that good? only see uses against a small number of decks or Goyf decks)

A Torpor Orb in the board is interesting, against what decks would you bring it in? I assume Elves ofcourse, DnT, Goblins, maybe Eldrazi (TKS & Endless One), are there other decks that I'm missing?

[Fox]

Pierce is only going to stop a Chalice if you're on the play or opponent inexplicably keeps a hand that can't produce 2 mana on turn 1. You already have FoW, and then Daze goes live once you have a main phase. Even if the opponent resolves Chalice on x=1 you still have Illus. Mask, to change the cmc to zero, and Factories; add in Trickbind and you can knock out the Chalice trigger one time to let a 1-drop resolve.

Torpor Orb doesn't stop Endless One, nor any creature with "as it enters" or "enters the battlefield with." The first thing you're looking for with Torpor Orb is: I want more ways to cheat in Dreadnoughts, including completely colorless mechanisms. The second thing you're looking for is just a bonus: I want to punish opponents for relying on beneficial ETBs. In very fringe cases you might run across a deck with an integral wincon that folds to Torpor Orb, but exists in a shell that is good vs Dreadnought - these decks don't really exist, but they'd need to have heavy removal + SCM + something like Thopter/Sword. You've named a lot of specific decks where we win via Dreadnought, and the opponent also happens to lean on ETB value, but others exist. Dredge of all varieties would draw out Torpor Orb, to include LED Dredge which hardly relies on ETB triggers, simply because the best strategy is to disrupt and hit them with 12/12s. Torpor would outperform a copy of Standstill vs Lands. It would be a high variance choice against decks that can steal Dreadnoughts (Reanimator) or happen to actually also run Dreadnoughts (I have never seen a mirror occur by random chance). There are examples of decks may run Strix + SCM + SFM, but if Dreadnoughts aren't going to be a strategy you'd leave in, then you don't add defensive-only Torpor Orb. Just have a reason to subvert rules towards Dreadnought and Torpor Orb-style cards generally work; the Dreadnought engine is generally disruptive to any differing strategy.

[Xod]

Which matchups would you leave out the Dreadnoughts completely?

I understand that Goyf decks, or decks that play BG (and contain abrupt decay) the big meanie is probably hard to protect. (in the past with UB Dreadstill, I won those matches with tombstalker or the factories) Now I have TNN to help me there. So any B(U)G deck and maybe a couple against Canadian Threshold. I removed 1 Nought against Miracles (together with Dazes). But I could remove more.

Are there other decks?

[Fox]

Which matchups would you leave out the Dreadnoughts completely?

I understand that Goyf decks, or decks that play BG (and contain abrupt decay) the big meanie is probably hard to protect. (in the past with UB Dreadstill, I won those matches with tombstalker or the factories) Now I have TNN to help me there. So any B(U)G deck and maybe a couple against Canadian Threshold. I removed 1 Nought against Miracles (together with Dazes). But I could remove more.

Are there other decks?

Depends how many cards you have coming in, but miracles is the about only deck I usually board out all Dreadnoughts without thinking twice. The only dependable wincon against Counterbalance for any decks that play interactive magic (no CB, Decay, Chalice, Cavern, Vial, Boseju, K-Grip/E. Firecraft) is put CB in the graveyard and ban it out of the game with Surgical (otherwise you have to do something idiotic like mill them out with 4x sideboard Brain Freeze or play a terrible deck with ridiculously high CMCs). Assuming you are able to stop Counterbalance from entering the game [which is unlikely], your next target is Surgical targeting StP (or you play TNNs) - after this point their entire deck (outside of Mentor and Entreat, the only spells left you fight over) is outclassed by your non-Dreadnought threats, especially if you can get two Factory on board to blank SCM flash blocking and trading. Miracles is like any other combo deck, your preferred wincon is invalidating their entire strategy (much like Enchantress which we discussed earlier).

Outside of miracles, because Stifle and a few other Dreadnought enablers are in the maindeck, you're fine boarding down to 1 or 2 Dreadnought (you still might want a way for these cards to be relevant via goldfishing) - SCM/Plow or discard spam/removal-based strategies generally follow this trend. There is no absolute right or wrong answers here as your boarding strategy should be to predict and undermine the boarding strategy of the opponent; this is where knowing the entire format and being able to see about 3 turns out of an opponent in game 1 and knowing with pretty accurate certainty ~70-73 cards in their list really pays off. Unlike normal decks, a Dreadnought deck is able to revert to totally normal magic or pile on the strange with absolute fluidity. Outside of Counterbalance, the specific enemy deck doesn't matter when asking where do the Dreadnoughts go post-board - know their lists, don't help them out by playing into their preferred interaction & sideboarding strategy, and ask yourself if you're winning via Dreadnought attacks or using Dreadnought just like any other creature to duress removal from hand, putting them in a position that loses to Standstill's CA (done vs decks like maverick which have lower removal counts and no recursion of that removal). If you want a more concrete rule, Dreadnoughts don't move unless you see SCM (or other recursive removal) from opponents.

[Mr. Safety]

I played mono-blue Dreadstill tonight at FNM to a 3-1 finish, good for $20 store credit. It was absurdly powerful on the play, but struggled on the draw. It's likely because I didn't have forces. I lost to Death and Taxes, close games and it went to 3. I beat another D&T player, aggro loam, and arena rector nic fit.

Here was my list:

4x delver
4x dreadnought
2x snapcaster
2x nimble obstructionist
4x brainstorm
4x standstill
4x daze
4x stifle
4x vapor snag
2x dismember
3x spell pierce
1x spell snare
2x Counterspell
3x scalding tarn
3x flooded strand
7x island
4x wasteland
3x mishra's factory

Sideboard
4x misdirection
2x echoing truth
2x ratchet bomb
2x pithing needle
2x gragdiggers cage
2x sower of temptation
1x dismember

Fun deck, delver into standstill felt so good. Snapcaster was great, obstructionist was ok. Sideboard needs work. I nabbed a trickbind to include.

[Fallen_Empire]

I played mono-blue Dreadstill tonight at FNM to a 3-1 finish, good for $20 store credit. It was absurdly powerful on the play, but struggled on the draw. It's likely because I didn't have forces. I lost to Death and Taxes, close games and it went to 3. I beat another D&T player, aggro loam, and arena rector nic fit.

Here was my list:

4x delver
4x dreadnought
2x snapcaster
2x nimble obstructionist
4x brainstorm
4x standstill
4x daze
4x stifle
4x vapor snag
2x dismember
3x spell pierce
1x spell snare
2x Counterspell
3x scalding tarn
3x flooded strand
7x island
4x wasteland
3x mishra's factory

Sideboard
4x misdirection
2x echoing truth
2x ratchet bomb
2x pithing needle
2x gragdiggers cage
2x sower of temptation
1x dismember

Fun deck, delver into standstill felt so good. Snapcaster was great, obstructionist was ok. Sideboard needs work. I nabbed a trickbind to include.

I wonder if back to basics would be good in a mono-blue build, maybe not if mishra's factory puts in too much work. I'm working on a blue/white build with Whir of Invention

[Rood]

Congrats man...without force you need like 4 Snares on the draw to disrupt a Thalia vs them. I would strait cut The Counterspells they are so lackluster if you lose the die roll. My recommended change would be

-2 CSpell
-1 Pierce

3 Snares

-2 Nimble
+2 True Name Nemesis

[Mr. Safety]

Factory was incredible, not going to use btb. Counterspell was ok, it was always relevant and always castable. I feel like without forces I need some sort of unconditional counterspell. Two felt correct. I do agree on more spell snares, will definitely cut a pierce for a snare.

Tnn I'm thinking about. Obstructionist stifles things while under standstill and has flash. I will probably cut to only 1 copy. That slot will be taken up by trickbind. Then I'm thinking I might cut a vapor snag for a piracy charm. Islandwalk seems very good and it can kill small creatures without costing me 4 life. Giving a small amount of reach with delver/dread/factory is relevant. Also, cage was lackluster. It did nothing against cabal therapy or life from the loam. Straight out for surgicals.

An all-star out of the board was sower of temptation. Super hot tech.

So:
-1 spell pierce
+1 spell snare

-1 nimble obstructionist
+1 trickbind

-1 vapor snag
+1 piracy charm

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone messed with fast mana? Like Lotus Petals or Chrome Mox?

[Yan]

Has anyone messed with fast mana? Like Lotus Petals or Chrome Mox?

I havent’t, but I’d say there is already so much card disadvantage in the deck that it can’t really handle more; standstill can only recover so much. Maybe your version without FoW can make use of it, as it kind of works like FoW, giving mana for your other counter spells? This card advantage thing is exactly what made me relegate Noughts to the sideboard pretty much permanently. They are still excellent in combo matchups, but aside few exceptions, in other matches I like having more cards that do things rather than go all in on dreadnought and lose because of that.

[Mr. Safety]

I havent’t, but I’d say there is already so much card disadvantage in the deck that it can’t really handle more; standstill can only recover so much. Maybe your version without FoW can make use of it, as it kind of works like FoW, giving mana for your other counter spells? This card advantage thing is exactly what made me relegate Noughts to the sideboard pretty much permanently. They are still excellent in combo matchups, but aside few exceptions, in other matches I like having more cards that do things rather than go all in on dreadnought and lose because of that.

Against d&t, they literally couldn't beat a t2 dreadnought. The idea is to have something to accelerate into a t1-2 dread and still have 1 mana open for something relevant.

Also, this is more or less a combo-tempo deck. Fast mana seems pretty decent as an avenue to take.

Also, anyone tried Academy Ruins? Seems a little too slow and only getting dreadnought back main and a few sideboard cards (ratchet bomb, relic/tormods).

Is trinket mage just too slow in the format now?

[Rood]

Against d&t, they literally couldn't beat a t2 dreadnought.

Is trinket mage just too slow in the format now?

Ill list some matchups Dreadnought shines too

Most Chalice decks if you are on the play
Goblins/Elves/Merfolk/Death/Taxes
Ichorid/Show and Tell/Storm/Reanimator
Burn
RUG Delver
Lands
Affinity

Kinda bad vs

Miracles
BUG
Stoneblade

Its not trinket mage is too slow typically the old creature base ran
Them. Now you have cards like True Name Nemesis that exist plus we dont Have to be as all in anymore having delvers and stuff. If you run him the best part is getting to run Crypts with them postboard. Really useful.

[Mr. Safety]

Trinket Mage x2 + 2-3 silver bullets in the sideboard is something I'd love to do, but I'm not sure I have the room. Is Dispel worth including in the 75? It seems pretty good in blue matchups.

[Fox]

Dreadnought with Petals is something that only really works in UB. It's nice that DRS isn't around anymore, in that total creature counts can drop again which helps Delver flip. This was the first color set I played with Dreadnought getting me into legacy one dual at a time. My creature set there was Delver, Dreadnought, Dark Confidant, and Tasigur (this one was a 2x). The creature set varied a bit once JVP was printed and I'd try to fit in 2x by cutting a Confidant and a Tasigur. Lands were at 16-17 and Petals at 3-4 to cap out around 20 mana sources. I moved on to different variants by the time had both Trops and Seas so I never added in DRS. Permission count was between 13-14 with Thoughtseize and Stubborn Denial occupying around 6-7 slots (played 2-3 Daze). The deck wasn't great but it had enough 2-1 and 3-1 finishes to sustain entry costs, despite being unable to play removal (overloading with Vision Charm was just a million times better back when DTT was legal). The deck is still probably fine, and turbo-Bob/JVP is always a fun time. Lots of win %age came from ignoring removal with Vision Charm and the fun combo where Dreadnought on board (trigger on stack) let's you cheat it in with fercious Stubborn backup.

I had much more success with UB Dreadnought/Petals when I mashed it up with Reanimator because Entomb/Darkblast is a helluva play in a deck that pretty much can't run removal unless it does something (like mill over Grisel, finds anything for JVP to re-cast). Creatures there were DRS x3, Dreadnought x3, Grisel x2, JVP x2, Leovold x1. Needs some work now with DRS gone, but this deck had the tools to completely dismantle decks that do things (Lands, Enchantress, DnT, 12-Post, etc...) while ignoring SB hate cards. Among the most effective SB cards was Liliana, the Last Hope x2; these probably go maindeck now which means you'd have to evaluate Dark Rit vs Petal. The deck could also just throw in Death's Shadow without much downside (it's quite fun having them on board at the same time as Grisel), and there's the option to cut green entirely now (just a single Trop). The creature count is low enough to run Delver, but this isn't a high value reanimation target, and unlike DRS it can't edit yard order to optimize cards like Shallow Grave (note how this deck draws into Stifle for the EoT trigger). Deck was hard to pilot and fun to play, and against the boring, zero-synergy fair decks you sometimes got to Grisel-derp them out which was always nice. Very different deckbuilding than UR, which doesn't really have synergy outside of all cards pointing at a life total.

There's perhaps some creative space for UB artifact stuff with Petals between cards like Baleful Strix, Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, Transmute Artifact, the improvise mechanic (Torpor Orb/Ill. Mask work well here, also potentially very abusive with Winter Orb)...so it's like Tezz but maybe without Chalice, doing the Dreadnought thing because you can. Card draw options abound with Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer, Paradoxical Outcome, Thirst for Knowledge, specialized PWs...you could even run Arcane Denial as double duty permission/ancestral. Mono-U w/ Sol Lands also probably fine playing this style as well since the printing of Walking Ballista and Bastion Inventor as additional wincons.

UR is too normal for Petal unless you really wanted to go running with scissors (Ensoul Artifact). UW can't afford to pick up lands so you'd get some ridiculous Auriok Salvagers or Paradoxical deck; either way that's a Mentor deck*. UG is missing pieces, but will care more about specializing around Illusionary Mask or Quirion Ranger than running Petals.

*UW is better positioned to be a Dreadnought deck that combines E-Tutor and redefining value via the manifest mechanic (still, not a strategy where you can pick up lands at any point).

One final note: don't play Trinket Mage, particularly with Petals - you're almost certainly running Torpor Orb, and you don't have time to sit back tapping down 3 mana to get a 2/2 and play into discard. If you really want that effect you use Transmute Artifact or Whir of Invention. If you're using cards at 3-4cmc in a Dreadnought deck they need to have an entirely different plan than make more Dreadnoughts to hit opponents with; you're competing with PWs, Greater Good (draw 12s), and nonsense like Arcum Dagsson or personal Howling Mines or effects like Phyrexian Processor.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response, I'll stay away from Trinket Mage. I'm still curious what 2-4 sources of fast mana might do for the deck. I can think of at least 2 really good t1 plays that could make for quick victories:

1) Island/Fetch + Petal + Stifle-Dreadnought
2) Factory + Petal + Standstill

The other thing is that having Wasteland + Factory in opening hand, but no blue sources of mana, is pretty much auto-mulligan. With Petal it can at least be functional if there is something reasonable to go with it, like Brainstorm or Standstill (standstill being the obviously better choice because it doesn't lock you out if you don't draw a fetch.)

My only real reservation is that Petal takes up slots, and I don't feel I can cut lands to fit them in; far from it, I want to ensure as much as possible having 2 mana on t1. Sol Lands are too painful I think, although I could see an argument for 1-2 Ancient Tombs. Chrome Mox is interesting, but the deck runs so lean already, it really needs all of its cards. There isn't a 'gotcha' card beyond Standstill, which is ok, but what do I imprint? A counterspell? Delver? Brainstorm? Standstill? I suppose an extra vapor snag would be ok to imprint, but that would be wildly conditional on what deck I was facing.

EDIT: Academy Ruins? Yes/no? Too cute?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Has anyone messed with fast mana? Like Lotus Petals or Chrome Mox?

I have, in general it's not needed because there's nothing you need to race where you'd rather have a card that does something.

[Mr. Safety]

I have, in general it's not needed because there's nothing you need to race where you'd rather have a card that does something.

Others have said (or at least implied) the same. I am going to squeeze in 1x Chrome Mox, just to offset the potential for an opening hand with multiple colorless sources but no blue source of mana. Testing will show whether it's a wasted slot or not.

What are people's feelings on Spell Snare? Definitely overperforming for me, in a big way.

EDIT: Without Force of Will, I am looking to alternative strategies to make the deck more versatile. One of the things that comes to mind is Grove/Fires, which I think could add a really good removal element to the deck. I would have to cut Counterspell, which is fine with me, and a couple other slots (probably 2x Vapor Snag), but I know I can find room. The big worry is the mana-base. I would have to play *only* groves as my red source. I can't cut fetchlands or the utility lands at all. So it would look ugly like this:

3x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
5x Island
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Wasteland
2x Mishra's Factory

This seems super dangerous in regards to having reliable ways of casting Daze for free. I'm not sure it's very good, honestly. Alternatively I could do this:

3x Strand
4x Tarn
5x Island
1x Grove
1x Steam Vents
4x wasteland
1x Factory
1x Tolaria West

I would love to play Grove/Fires in the deck, but It ends up seeming really awkward. Does everyone agree with that? I mean if I wanted red, Volcanics and other cards seem to be a little better (Bolts etc.) but I've been chomping at the bit to include Grove/Fires in a fringe deck for a long time.

[Fox]

There's not a huge benefit to dropping a turn zero Standstill since you'd be down at 4 cards, so opponent should just cast their first spell into it. It would be better as a board plan against linear combo, though 2-of is probably about as high as you could go. Assuming you're UR Dreadstill, you'd want SSG in this case to have access to turn 0 monkey blast and also to pitch from hand to cancel a Chancellor trigger. I don't think this is a particularly good use of a few SB slots, but will help sometimes.

The turbo Standstill play has a couple of other problems including:
-these decks have 21-26 lands already, so you'd be drawing even more mana
-doesn't trade well vs FoW
-the loose idea of chipping away opponent life totals while warping tempo [with Standstill] isn't helped by having fast mana; you end up with fewer cards that help bounce between tempo options

You have to play the 2+ colorless land hands from time to time and trust you'll eventually draw the colored source. Usable topdecks include ~13 colored lands, 4 FoW, 3-4 Factory, and potentially two colorless Dreadnought enablers (I have Mask main and usually Torpor in SB). With two colorless lands in hand you also have 3 draw steps to dig towards colored mana without going behind on mana, so you really have to look at what your opponent's deck does and how much that interferes with a plan to draw towards mana that can enact a later Standstill plan. Evaluation is more complex when it's post-board and you might have powerful hate cards in hand.

There are very few artifacts you need or want to get back with Academy in this deck; you're not interested in ever getting back a Dreadnought unless you have the onboard enabler for instance. If you ever want to buyback a card to top of deck, the best option is probably Noxious Revival due to it's offensive/defensive hybrid nature as well as being an SCM flashback target. Playing Noxious also allows you to drop a colorless land since it can buyback a Fetch or Wasteland'd Dual if absolutely necessary, without needing mana.

Maindeck fast mana is always fine with Dreadnoughts, but it should generally go with an aggressive mana base and other turn one plays that really ramp up pressure on opponents while also fixing card disadvantage (Grisel, Confidant, etc).

Edit: if you're playing Grove, you're a Dack Fayden deck first. After that point, it's just easier to run Chandra-ToD than Dreadnoughts and all the cards you'd need to support it.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks again for piping in, much appreciated. As for fast mana, the most I would do is include 1x Chrome Mox (not cutting any lands.) This should help offset the lack of blue mana and also enable the occasional potential for a fast t1 (depending on matchup.) I'll stick with mono-blue, it's done alright so far.

Noxious Revival is an interesting plan, but worse than Snapcaster Mage. Torpor Orb is definitely a consideration for me, but I would have to cut the Snaps. Being mono-blue, and with my primary removal spell being Vapor Snag, I think I need the Snaps more than the torpor orb.

EDIT: Remand? Easier to cast, protects *my spells* while drawing an extra card, easier to cast than Counterspell.

[Fox]

Thanks again for piping in, much appreciated. As for fast mana, the most I would do is include 1x Chrome Mox (not cutting any lands.) This should help offset the lack of blue mana and also enable the occasional potential for a fast t1 (depending on matchup.) I'll stick with mono-blue, it's done alright so far.

Noxious Revival is an interesting plan, but worse than Snapcaster Mage. Torpor Orb is definitely a consideration for me, but I would have to cut the Snaps. Being mono-blue, and with my primary removal spell being Vapor Snag, I think I need the Snaps more than the torpor orb.

EDIT: Remand? Easier to cast, protects *my spells* while drawing an extra card, easier to cast than Counterspell.

Just be aware that Mox/imprint, land, Standstill leaves you at a card less than Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG so you're potentially going into opponent's first turn at 3 cards [+3 from Standstill crack] vs 8 or 3 cards vs 6 if they used FoW vs Standstill. This puts a lot of pressure on a followup Standstill and a board state still favorable to casting it. I'd still leave the fast mana in the board for combo matchups, if you're committed to running it. Noxious generally complements SCM because you get to keep looping things SCM wouldn't give access to (Factory, Wasteland, Standstill, on-board Dreadnought enabler, PW, creature); this provides an amount of resilience to discard-based strategies.

It's hard to comment on SCM vs Torpor Orb in a Vapor Snag shell, as I don't consider bouncing cards you probably couldn't answer in the first place to be a winning strategy - especially when these drawing cards like Snag actively impede a Dreadnought plan. I would think Reality Shift would generally be better since scenarios exist where it acts like a Stifle (they target your guy, Bstorm Dreadnought to top, respond by exiling own guy). The more likely scenario is that you're using it as removal, in which case you want to attack 2 power, or 2 toughness, and/or 0 cmc (i.e. JVP +1, Grim Lavamancer activation/Factory on defense, or Ratchet Bomb-style tactics respectively). The lack of complexity, part of which is completely independent of what opponent's deck is doing, is why I never choose to run cards like Snag and Dismember. Coming back to SCM vs Torpor Orb specifically, there would be 3 cards which are potentially at odds with eachother; note how decks with RiP don't ever side out their SCMs because they brought in a copy or two of RiP. Torpor Orb in play is so much worse for them than it'll ever be for you, if they want to contest it, then let them...and unlock your two SCM in the process (even if they don't it's a 2/1 with flash that forces them to crack a followup Standstill).

I don't think I'd play Remand over Arcane Denial (counter their thing, or use it to turn a Dreadnought into a draw 3) or something like Swan Song. Swan Song makes more sense if we were already thematically planning on dealing with hostile 2/2 creatures with 0cmc (discussed previously). It's quite easy to plan vs an opponent who has Snag/Remand in deck versus one who has Reality Shift/Swan Song where you have no idea how they plan on using these effects (but you know their deck came ready to deal with a 2/2 stat line). You don't really gain win % with Dreadnought without interlocking as many parallel pieces while avoiding vertical interactions (A+B) or having cards that are completely askew/skewed to only one strategy which end up increasing susceptibility to loss by variance. If we carry this idea of being equipped to deal with 2/2s and running cards like Reality Shift, we'd be much more inclined to pick a card like Set Adrift over Echoing Truth in the sideboard.

If you want to keep the more straight-up theme going (SCM over JVP and use of cards like Snag), you probably need to get into red asap where each point of burn and attack for damage is a real, albeit hidden, focal point.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response. I will be avoiding Mox and petals for now, I'm convinced it wasn't a great idea. If the combo was more likely to connect, or had built in protection I would mana-up for sure, but as it stands it not only needs to resolve but hit twice to win. That's too much risk when a single Swords to Plowshares could blow me out of the water.

My thought on Remand was that people will naturally target the Stifle, not the Dreadnought, to get the 2-for-1. If I remand my own Stifle, I will likely have enough mana to re-cast it in the mid-game, all the while drawing an extra card. Arcane Denial does get me more cards, but it doesn't get me back the one card I really want (Stifle.) Remand is much better at countering something an opponent does as well, because if they can't re-cast it due to mana-denial (huh, who would do that?:smile:) it is essentially a Time Walk. Maybe too cute, but the theory is sound even if the application might fall flat IRL. Also, weren't you also against Vendilion Clique because it could draw them into mana you were already denying? Arcane Denial does that but instead gives them 2 free draws, all the while not threatening 3 life a turn like Clique.

Regarding Vapor Snag: it may not be as effective at dealing with threats as Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares, but it puts it back into their hand where I can have an opportunity to counter it. The time-walk effect can be very good as well, considering I should be denying them mana. It still does the most important thing as well: get things out of the way for Delver/Snap/Factory to beat face. I really see this as my best option considering I don't have Volcanics, or any other blue dual. You can make an argument for shocklands, especially with a fast clock and I'm already using Dismember, but do I gain enough to outweigh the risk?Another way to build it would be to play Mutavault/Spellstutter Sprite. It's not terribly fast, but it's definitely relevant in a fast format like legacy for countering things.

I still have a ton of open-ended questions:

1) Would Ratchet Bomb be ok maindeck? Solves the Chalice@1-turn-1-game-1 problem.
2) Should I play Misdirection maindeck when I don't have Forces? Doesn't counter things but is excellent against discard.
3) Is Dispel good enough to indlude in the 75? Fights counter wars like a champ, but so does Pierce.
4) Jace the Mind Sculptor? Main/side/no? Seems very good as an alternative win-condition and a 5th card advantage engine to supplement Standstill.
5) Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker sideboard? I want the effect, is Revoker better? Needle can shut off fetches, but that wasn't why I boarded it in usually. It was for Aether Vial, PW's, Pernicious Deed, equipment. Revoker does the same, but also attacks for 2, however doesn't get in under Standstill t1 like Needle. Needle is a liability against Chalice decks, and Chalice decks from my experience have tons of activated abilities.

Sorry for inundating the thread with my ramblings. This is quickly becoming my favorite deck to play in legacy, and if I trade into Forces may become my primary legacy deck. Nic Fit can wait until the metagame gets soft to it again.

[Rood]

I've played with 3-4 Spell Snares since the decks creation and I've never looked away.
Being able to counter a Goyf, Chalice, Counterbalance..and relevent 2 drop then drop a SS On your turn is huge. Very awesome answer on the draw.

[Fallen_Empire]

U/W Brew:
I know at first glance Smuggler's Copter seems pretty jank in legacy, but trust me the card puts in work in shortcake. This deck wants to be as explosive as possible, and Copter also lets us draw a card and filter- a 3/3 flyer is no joke. There is also the sweet interaction of Smuggler's Copter and Mishra's Factory which is epic. We can also tap a non-flipped delver, or even TNN facing down an empty board if we need card draw. Curious what Fox and crew think about it? I play paper and will probably replace a Torpor Orb with a Mask shortly.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Smuggler's Copter

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Whir of Invention
1 Echoing Truth
1 Torpor Orb
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Lotus Petal
4 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

//Sideboard
1 Torpor Orb
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rest in Peace
2 Meddling Mage
1 Unstable Mutation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Whir of Invention

[pandaman]

I'm revisiting some of my favourite decks I've let slip by the wayside during Deathrite Shaman's dominance of the Legacy metagame, so of course I'm back thinking about DreadStill. Loving the discussion going on, it's been very interesting reading.

I am pro-Snare: like Rood and Mr. Safety, I love the card and it's always performed well for me. Fallen_Empire, I'm unsure about Copter but I could be convinced. In a UR list particularly, cards that slip in chip damage are great because they increase the chances of only needing one Dreadnought swing, and Copter seems as if it would do that quite well. But does TNN just do that better?

The thing I'm torn about myself is the inclusion of Ponder. It improves consistency but if we're planning to operate at instant speed from under a Standstill most of the time it doesn't quite seem to fit. What do you all think? Do you have Ponders in your lists? I can see many don't. Is that for the same reasons as me?

[Mr. Safety]

My thinking is that if something is going to conflict with Standstill (sorcery speed card action) it needs to be at least as powerful as Standstill, or be a threat. I don't think Ponder does that. I could see Jace being that option, but I can't think of anything else. Speaking for myself, I have found Brainstorm and Standstill to be enough to fuel the deck. I may try and squeeze in a Jace, though.

@Fallen_Empire: I liked the idea of Smuggler's Copter. I essentially have 2-4 slots I play around with (Nimble Obstructionist, Piracy Charm, Counterspell.) Copter could definitely go in for Obstructionist, but so far I think N-Ob has pulled enough weight to justify it's slot in the deck. Maybe I'll cut a Counterspell for it, just to try it out. Then I re-read your list and didn't see Daze or Standstill. I'm not sure that's correct. Then I saw a white splash, but the only card splashing white for is ETutor. I would think a minimum of StP would be included main as well. It gives life, but you have the ability to swing in chunks of 12. It shouldn't be an issue. Your list is much more aggressive and proactive, which I guess is fine, but I don't see it playing the same as a typical Standstill deck. It's much closer to a tempo deck than Standstill + fast combo. One thing I am definitely interested to hear from you is whether you feel Lotus Petals justify their inclusion. I spent a lot of time discussing this and I ended up leaving them out. I am curious what you think it adds to your deck, and whether it creates tension and too much card disadvantage.

EDIT: I know Landstill decks have been messing with Myth Realized. Seems really good, honestly.

[Rood]

I'll be taking a vintage variant of this deck to a tournament Sat.. Probably going UB for tutor effects considering red splash
Seems rather weak in vintage outside of REB. Thinking of a counterbase of 4 FoW, 4 Mental Misstep, 4 Spell Pierce? Maybe 2 Snares 2 Pierce. Being able to play with Recall, 4SS, and Cruise plus tutor effects seems sweet though.

[whienot]

Good luck. If anyone can navigate a hailstorm of Missteps, it'll be you. http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt45/whienot_mtg/DfDwf69VAAEQNtI.jpeg (http://s596.photobucket.com/user/whienot_mtg/media/DfDwf69VAAEQNtI.jpeg.html)

[Fox]

My thought on Remand was that people will naturally target the Stifle, not the Dreadnought, to get the 2-for-1. If I remand my own Stifle, I will likely have enough mana to re-cast it in the mid-game, all the while drawing an extra card. Arcane Denial does get me more cards, but it doesn't get me back the one card I really want (Stifle.) Remand is much better at countering something an opponent does as well, because if they can't re-cast it due to mana-denial (huh, who would do that?:smile:) it is essentially a Time Walk. Maybe too cute, but the theory is sound even if the application might fall flat IRL. Also, weren't you also against Vendilion Clique because it could draw them into mana you were already denying? Arcane Denial does that but instead gives them 2 free draws, all the while not threatening 3 life a turn like Clique.

Regarding Vapor Snag: it may not be as effective at dealing with threats as Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares, but it puts it back into their hand where I can have an opportunity to counter it. The time-walk effect can be very good as well, considering I should be denying them mana. It still does the most important thing as well: get things out of the way for Delver/Snap/Factory to beat face. I really see this as my best option considering I don't have Volcanics, or any other blue dual. You can make an argument for shocklands, especially with a fast clock and I'm already using Dismember, but do I gain enough to outweigh the risk?Another way to build it would be to play Mutavault/Spellstutter Sprite. It's not terribly fast, but it's definitely relevant in a fast format like legacy for countering things.

I still have a ton of open-ended questions:

1) Would Ratchet Bomb be ok maindeck? Solves the Chalice@1-turn-1-game-1 problem.
2) Should I play Misdirection maindeck when I don't have Forces? Doesn't counter things but is excellent against discard.
3) Is Dispel good enough to indlude in the 75? Fights counter wars like a champ, but so does Pierce.
4) Jace the Mind Sculptor? Main/side/no? Seems very good as an alternative win-condition and a 5th card advantage engine to supplement Standstill.
5) Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker sideboard? I want the effect, is Revoker better? Needle can shut off fetches, but that wasn't why I boarded it in usually. It was for Aether Vial, PW's, Pernicious Deed, equipment. Revoker does the same, but also attacks for 2, however doesn't get in under Standstill t1 like Needle. Needle is a liability against Chalice decks, and Chalice decks from my experience have tons of activated abilities.

So with Arcane Denial (since we're talking about mono-blue) Standstill is the most powerful effect that can win non-combo games, and with SCM in your list we're going longer which puts the emphasis on card advantage down the stretch. Denial is a lot closer to functioning like a 5th pseudo-copy of Standstill, and you get the option to do things like cast Standstill -> they counter -> counter own Standstill, still draw 3 (more likely though to cast own Dreadnought, hold priority and target it with Denial). The interactive mode of Denial also needs to be looked at as :1::u: counter target card advantage engine, next upkeep trigger-trigger, draw your card -> Stifle their draw 2. So it's basically slow-cycling for :1::u: + get an untap step + then Stifle/SCM-Stifle is now a hard counter. Worst case you're saying "I'll slow-cycle this card, and I'd rather you took 2 blind draws rather than have a card like JTMS." Unlike Clique, you aren't trying to draw them into mana; casting this as an unsupported counter [that would draw them into lands] should generally mean the opponent is casting an intolerable 3+ cmc card, which means the Stifle/Wasteland plan has probably passed.

Remand is able to be fired off liberally, but it only delays problems and it doesn't really have the ability to get you back into a game (not without 5+ lands on the table, which is what you'd need for card advantage via stack baiting). I think Snare probably does a better job of keeping something off the table into drop Standstill if that's the other thing you were going for with Remand.

Vapor Snag is one of those cards where you probably have to combo off of the life loss to get away with it (red cards), certainly when running so many copies of Snag. I don't see a mono-blue deck as being able to mount enough pressure to take advantage of that bounce window, but on the flip side it makes it really hard for opponents to remove your Factories and deny Standstill opportunities. The card probably has a net negative effect on ability to win games compared to effects like Set Adrift/Submerge which return to top of deck; you're the one actually playing it though so you'd have to test out comparative efficacy.

1) I don't see enough reason to maindeck Ratchet Bomb without a synergy-based list using cards like Reality Shift, because Bomb doesn't help win games. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that win % goes up if that slot isn't Ill. Mask or Torpor Orb. Mask is a much better way to defeat Chalice, because those decks generally don't beat resolved 12/12s.
2) Misdirection is fine, it'll be either amazing or terrible. It becomes more important to play more proactively to bait opponent countermagic so that Misd. functions like FoW. The most severe change in playstyle pattern will occur when facing Reanimate/Animate Dead decks, lines become very unintuitive.
3) Dispel is reasonable...I'd probably rather have Snare if we're talking about maindeck or Divert if we're talking about SB. Given your list is mono-blue you also have to look at cards like Annul, Invasive Surgery, Hydroblast/Flash Flood, or ramp up the mana denial plan with Mind Bend (this would be on top of the usual Flusters and Surgicals). I think Dispel is probably best against a deck trying to bring in Pyroblast, in which case I might want Hydroblast/Flash Flood (and as a bonus you get better win % vs red decks).
4) I'm not a huge fan of JTMS, but the card is fine. I'd be a little concerned as a mono-blue player about artifacts like Needle/Revoker though. If you were UR, I think you absolutely take Chandra-ToD over JTMS any day.
5) I really dislike Pithing Needle; you're already a Factory deck which should be naturally good vs PWs so I'd rather have Teferi's Response if that's what I'm concerned about. It doesn't deal with Vial, but that card also hoses DnT, especially with SCM. Dead draws like Needle will always be high risk/high reward. Revoker is pretty bad, but if you have a Dreadnought coming out it still provides pressure when followed up by Standstill.

----

@Fallen Empire your list has some pretty significant card disadvantage problems between E. Tutor, Dreadnought, and Petal. We play 12/12s so that we don't need to play equipment (otherwise we'd be cutting Dreads for SFM). While white removal is garbage compared to Bolt vs opponent life total, there is this very fringe idea that Dreadnought + StP = 4x Healing Salve and somehow that is ok enough....maybe. You definitely picked up on the most important thing with those colors: you can't win games of legacy by picking up Tundra [Daze].

The UW Dreadnought deck is playable (I went 6-3 at Seattle GP, having played it extensively for the better half of a year), but the key to white cards is capitalizing on no-skill "derp I win b/c you can't anymore." For me deck construction began with Enlightened Tutor, because it finds the biggest cheese-a-win artifacts/enchantments out of the board (RiP/Canonist) and the best one-card wincon in 2x Mentor. The reason you can run Mentor is you no longer have to play Hushwing Gryff because they printed Tocatli Honor Guard, which not only freed up the 3-drop slot, but it also gave us a playable, proactive 2-drop (these don't exist in UW if you're not playing SFM or Thalia; neither of which help Dreadnoughts).

So Mentor, Tocatli [thus Dreadnoughts], E. Tutor main, and SB cheese in a Tundra deck that can't play Daze, and a deck that's automatically not playing Delver (too many lands and artifact/echantments). Without Delver, there's no playable 1-drops (Mother of Runes is awful), so you're playing Factory. Finish the deck from there is the challenge.

My emphasis was complete synergy around a premise that tutoring to top of deck either wins or isn't card disadvantage (this was more important pre-ban with Czech Pile spamming Hymns and being quite poor vs enchantments). My list looked like this:

Lands (20)
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Island x2
Plains x1
Tundra x2
Karakas x1
Wasteland x4
Factory x3

Creatures (11)
Dreadnought x4
Tocatli Honor Guard x2
JVP x2
Mentor x2
Jeskai Infiltrator x1

Spells (22)
FoW x4
BS x4
Stifle x4
Plow x4
E. Tutor x3
Reality Shift x2
Noxious Revival x1

Other
Standstill x1
Search for Azcanta x1
Aether Vial x1
Illusionary Mask x1
Powder Keg x1
Cursed Scroll x1
Mastery of the Unseen x1


SB
Surgical x1
C. Priest x2
Teferi's Realm x1
Canonist x1
RiP x1
Cursed Totem x1
Torpor Orb x1
Disempower x1
Sacred Ground x1
Divert x2
Misd x2
Isochron Scepter x1 (white is a dumb color, and it needed a card to reflect that) - and yes it was foil FTV.

Aside from boring old Swords to Plowshares, which you have to run since you don't have Daze, everything in this deck works together in highly convoluted ways. The end product is actually pretty low variance if the pilot can assess the implications of all the possible interactions, identify when to abandon Wasteland for a get to 4 mana plan, and generally avoid using Stifle to put Dreadnought into play. I don't think Dreadnought really competes in legacy by playing normal magic (exception for UR due to burn spells); there's a lot of pressure to identify and exploit rules in the most disruptive way possible to those playing normal legacy, without going A+B vertical combo.

[Mr. Safety]

Needle/revoker are not for pws, they are for depths/stage, vial, equips, knight of the reliquary, maze of ith, lion's eye diamond, griselbrand. There is some overlap, and I wouldn't hesitate to stop jace or liliana, but the argument is to further stifle non-land mana sources or activated abilities of resolved creatures. Without hard removal it seems necessary. Needle can hit lands and most things, but is 1 and doesn't work with chalice. Revoker hits non-land mana and creatures, dodges chalice, and attacks for 2. Pros and cons of both.

[Fallen_Empire]

In a long grindy match I can see the utility of stp, but what creatures are we worried about stp'ing if we have a turn 1 or 2 12/12 trample?
My thought process is that we jam delver, TNN, Copter's, Factories etc to put immediate pressure on our opponents life total and overload the removal threats against us (thus the inclusion of the 4x petals, a tutorable jitte, and if need be unstable mutation). Is there a consensus on how many instants a deck with brainstorm should have that runs delver? I've intrigued by mentor and Tocatli and plan on studying your list.. Thanks for the input

[Fox]

Needle/revoker are not for pws, they are for depths/stage, vial, equips, knight of the reliquary, maze of ith, lion's eye diamond, griselbrand. There is some overlap, and I wouldn't hesitate to stop jace or liliana, but the argument is to further stifle non-land mana sources or activated abilities of resolved creatures. Without hard removal it seems necessary. Needle can hit lands and most things, but is 1 and doesn't work with chalice. Revoker hits non-land mana and creatures, dodges chalice, and attacks for 2. Pros and cons of both.

So really quickly, Needle doesn't stop LED; that's a mana ability.

We run Wasteland/Stifle for Depth/Stage/Maze. KotR costs 3 mana (Daze it), is smaller than Dreadnought, doesn't trample, and is run in decks that will kill their own guys (assumes you have Misdirection effects). Decks with Grisel should have pretty unfavorable matchups against us b/c they can be disrupted; I'd focus on not letting it get into play or combination of Stifle draw 7 or throw a 12 power attacker at them while they're probably at <12 life.

Vial is certainly annoying, but those decks don't really do anything in the face of Torpor Orb. While you run Factory and Mask, Null Rod is probably more likely to win a game than Needle. I don't see Needle naming Vial as a winning card against a deck that has Flickerwisp. DnT isn't really a deck you want to have a grindy/interactive game with, you get Dreadnought down and have to beat 4x StP and 3-4x Flickerwisp; Torpor Orb them and you only care about 4 cards in their deck. This is one of those matchups where you get ahead by sticking to your plan in the most punishing way possible via Torpor Orb and Teferi's Response while boarding out 2-3 Standstills.

---
@Fallen_Empire in general with Delver, the best numbers are around 27 cards that flip it. UR Dreadstill is under that number, but it doesn't really matter because they got a threat down under a Standstill; otherwise Delver is just :u: opponent either discards target removal spell or will eventually lose 3-6 life, at which point they're in 1-shot Dreadnought territory. If you're playing UW, you're not really killing people with aggro damage so much as doing a thing that generates card advantage which eventually becomes the cause of death. If you're trying to buff creatures, you either need more creatures [Delver gets worse] to power Copters or to attach effects to, or you play SFM/Bskull/Jitte.

[Mr. Safety]

Torpor orb makes sense; but I can use revoker on lion's eye diamond. That is a reason to consider it.

Regardless, you have me convinced. I'll board a torpor orb.

[Rood]

Has anyone considered the new Blue Merfolk for Show/Tell and Reanimator hate? Mistcaller. Seems awesome especially followed by t2 standstill

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I'm interested in hearing more about the UW version - I like the UR version's aggression, but the UW seems to have more flexibility with the E-tutor toolbox...

Couple questions -
1. why only 1 standstill?
2. why so many MD tutor targets - some seem very niche. cursed scroll, for example. i can see the uses of each, but maybe more general consistency might be better?
3. it seems like this list has a lot less countermagic - no daze, no pierce, etc. is there room for more? what is the thinking behind leaving it out?

Thanks for your help and work on such an interesting deck!

[Fox]

Couple questions -
1. why only 1 standstill?
2. why so many MD tutor targets - some seem very niche. cursed scroll, for example. i can see the uses of each, but maybe more general consistency might be better?
3. it seems like this list has a lot less countermagic - no daze, no pierce, etc. is there room for more? what is the thinking behind leaving it out?

1.This isn't really a Standstill deck, it runs Factory b/c it can't run Delver and there are no other 1 drops worth playing. So we hide a 1 drop creature in a colorless-producing land, which is going to drive deckbuilding decisions.

The more in-depth answer:

While Dreadnought decks are powerful enough to win games of legacy, they suffer from consistency; you play these decks b/c you like Dreadnought and it's an entirely different deck. I would classify all tier 2 decks as "bad" (powerful, but inconsistent), but there's a big difference between playing a "bad" deck and making a crappy decision to play an arbitrarily worse deck. So if I wanted more Standstills I'd play UW Standstill (a deck I'm currently testing since Teferi came out)...but let's be honest, if you're playing [normal legacy] Tundra without Counterbalance (i.e. Blade, Standstill, Helmerator) you're playing a garbage deck because you're choosing to play Tundra in a manner that doesn't generate the highest win % (also these can't beat CB in a Tundra mirror). I wouldn't consider another copy of Standstill with UW Dreadnought unless Counterbalance got banned. You could add a copy of Counterbalance to this list and try to cheese people out of games, but it would make you a scumbag. :tongue:

2a. Cursed Scroll hits 2 toughness, Powder Keg hits zero cmc (different category but JVP hits 2 power, Factory blocks as a 3/3). This deck plays Reality Shift. These cards do other important things (kill tokens, murder Mother of Runes, troll certain strategies and PWs, create on-board value where discard would attempt to take it away, etc). You have a lot of freedom with E. Tutor, but the key is that running it needs to either cheese an immediate win (Helmerator) or not actually be card disadvantage. Dreadnoughts don't usually interact favorably with 'derp I win' cards, so alternative targets have to involve cards with fairly specific implications like Sundial of the Infinite and Parallax Tide. You're post is really open-ended @aslidsiksoraksi on a very specific subset of cards I chose to combine with the 'solved' aspects of the UW Dreadnought shell [my previous post]...card choices not directly required to justify the premise of the shell, like Cursed Scroll, are a subset of many cards that generate multiple desired effects. Maybe this analogy will work: Cursed Scroll is part of a protein rather than a free-floating amino acid, whereas in say RUG Delver Pierce vs Forked Bolt are just random amino acids floating around by themselves.

2b. Mastery of the Unseen is an unforgivably terrible card to build around, but if it gets going it's insanely hard to beat. The only way you can justify it is E. Tutor giving consistent access to the singleton when needed. The upside on this card is pretty much the entire reason white is even worth considering with Dreadnought.
2c. Azcanta is good when Standstill is bad. When you Wasteland Azcanta under a Sacred Ground, the enchantment comes back to play. Azcanta is most often left unflipped to see what's on top before we draw it as we move into the decision tree of mill/self-Shift/activate Mastery.
2d. Aether Vial is a busted and uninteractive magic card by itself, it does the Dreadnought trick, it creates impossible scenarios to tag a Dreadnought without removal (it's a colorless Hymn targeting blue cards), it beats Chalice (I mean it can, and it's usually left on one), we have a dearth of 1-drop threats, and so on.
2e. Illusionary Mask is too complex to be discussed succinctly, sufficed to say it's extremely important and we have a very easy time finding it.
2f. Standstill is low opportunity cost value. Also (in conjunction with JVP), we randomly get to ignore nonsense like Ensnaring Bridge between Mentor and face-down casting. The more you have of this card the worse your Loam and Vial matchups get; these are decks you actively want to play against.

It's important to understand the high degree to which every card in this list is meant to interact with every other card that could be drawn. The deck is made of lines of play due to the sheer variety of complementary and distinct interactions and workarounds which is only done because the premise is you like Dreadnoughts, enjoy piloting a competitive deck with them, and just really love helping people lose games of legacy in ways they never thought were possible. I don't think you can play normal legacy (increase consistency with Ponder for example) and be effective with Dreadnought; you lose creative space for solution and engine variety. At this point your deck stops winning b/c you tried to play exactly like a normal legacy deck but handicapped yourself with 2-for-1s.

3. StP is a necessary evil that buys more time than other countermagic. What the deck is doing is recreating the cascade-esque mechanic in a very backwards manner; rules are being subverted such that the classification of what constitutes a must-counter spell shifts rapidly. Plow tells opponents to waste their next turn casting another guy while we're off doing something nefarious or murdering PWs with Factories; time walking opponents is an effect we can always count on wanting (this is true of any UW deck). These are the slots where permission would have to go, but Plow gives more win % here. Some of that win% comes from option to gain 12 life.

[Xod]

Went 4-0 on Friday with my usual decklist and this side:
1 Alpine Moon
1 Sudden Demise
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Commandeer
1 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Teferi's Response
1 Torpor Orb
1 True-Name Nemesis

2-0 Steel Stompy
2-0 Aggro Loam
2-0 Miracles
2-1 Steel Stompy

Must admit that my openingshands where way better than the couple of events before, where I went twice 2-2, punting 2 games due to bad decissions, bad (played) stand stills and a lot of mulligans. Mostly by playing badly.

Still feel good about the deck, and it's very similar to RUG Delver in the way that when you make 1 mistake, it will probably cost you the game.

[Fox]

Surprised by the miracles 2-0; did they just not find or resolve Counterbalance? Other than that, I'd say that the other two archetypes seen represent fairly favorable matchups. How many Standstills did you cut vs Steel Stompy? I usually go down to 1-2 iirc.