[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[H]

So it enters and the clause where you pick a player still happens? I misunderstood that interaction.


Correct. TNN has no triggered ability ("When", "Whenever"), but a static (?) ability ("As"), which doesn't use the stack. You also cannot Stifle TNN for that reason.
Same on other cards like Pithing Needle or Meddling Mage.

Indeed, things phrased "As..." are actually replacement effects that modify how they will enter the Battlefield. The only "weird case" here is how the rules were changed with regards to Blood Moon, or Humility, but that is kind of besides the point here, which is that anything that is "As..." is specifically not a trigger.

[Michael Keller]

Fueling delve like this turns these creatures into another self-2 for 1. A more powerful use in UB is combinations of Vision Charm and Darkblast to tutor targets to the yard for JVP while simultaneously flipping him into a the form that can cast a tutored card.

With DRS banned, symmetry is less critical; but the key delve amount with uninteruptable priority is 5 (Charm + 4 mills), which favors Tasigur. It's not possible to get to 6 cards in yard without passing priority; again, no longer as relevant b/c of a ban.

When discussing UB, Petal is notable as a better source of turbo delve mana. Additionally, Petal allows a card like Rite of Undoing to become much more playable with mechanically precise play: announce target Petal + opponent target, move to pay tapping Petal for color, move to delve getting second mana from Petal.

The tldr: milling with V Charm solely for delve mana is a generally losing line. Note that UB does not have reach, translating to multiple turns for an opponent to punish this play pattern.

If you're playing with Phyrexian Dreadnought, you're already living in a two-for-one world anyhow. Angler is intrinsically easier to cast on it's own merit, so fueling it turn two is much less of a losing proposition than hoping to hit a one-of DB. Gurmag Angler in a UB build is probably the best alternate win condition next to Dreadnought.

And with Petal, T1 Angler is very possible with four off the Charm, the Charm itself and a Petal for black mana.

[Mr. Safety]

Correct. TNN has no triggered ability ("When", "Whenever"), but a static (?) ability ("As"), which doesn't use the stack. You also cannot Stifle TNN for that reason.
Same on other cards like Pithing Needle or Meddling Mage.


Indeed, things phrased "As..." are actually replacement effects that modify how they will enter the Battlefield. The only "weird case" here is how the rules were changed with regards to Blood Moon, or Humility, but that is kind of besides the point here, which is that anything that is "As..." is specifically not a trigger.

Thanks for the notes, gentlemen. I was playing around an interaction that didn't exist, lol.

[H]

Thanks for the notes, gentlemen. I was playing around an interaction that didn't exist, lol.

It happens. The rules are confusing and the confusing ones are even more so.

I once beat Chris Pikula in a Vintage tournament specifically because of that interaction with respect to Iona (in that case), so anyone could misinterpret it. (He didn't believe me, but the Judge made it clear that I was not misinforming him, :laugh:.)

On Scroll of Fate, how has anyone else's testing been going? I know Rood's been trying it, anyone jamming it with Standstill? Or is it just not worth it?

[Rood]

Scroll of Fate’s busted. I’ve been jamming it in my Standstill build as a 4x. Cards just pure gas.

[H]

Scroll of Fate’s busted. I’ve been jamming it in my Standstill build as a 4x. Cards just pure gas.

Mono-Blue? Playing any other creatures like Stratus Dancer or just Delver still?

[Rood]

Mono-Blue? Playing any other creatures like Stratus Dancer or just Delver still?

UR with Delvers and Dreadnoughts. The card is really good at closing out alot of fair decks and destroys people relying on chalice based strats.

[Tobitzki]

So, playing tempo Delvernought (no Standstills, 3 Scrolls, near-mono-blue splashing black for Thoughtseizes).

And boy, is it getting tight in the tertiary threat / utility department: I have exactly 3 open slots between the following options: JVP, Brazen Borrower, Stratus Dancer, Fathom Seer and the new Gargoyle (ruling out Angler and Tasigur for nonbo-ing with Scroll). I'm tending toward 1 JVP (another in the side), 1 Brazen Bouncer, aaand ... I don't know ... I guess ... the Gargoyle?? I hate playing the morph dudes as long as I don't run the full playset of Scrolls and the Gargoyle is another formidable threat that helps justify 1-2 Vision Charms. I can also see the argument for Seer over JVP (reloading for vial-morphed 2/2s), I'm just having trouble letting go of my beloved Baby Jace.

Any thoughts & input appreciated. I'll only get to playtest this myself starting next week.

I'd also be interested in hearing from @Rood whether it's been awkward trying to get 3cmc Scrolls under Standstills. I'm still hesitant to go back to the classic Dreadstill as long as Tundra is less than oppressive.

[sco0ter]

I am newbie to this archetype, so let me ask a few questions:

Why is the "Dreadnought" archetype so focused on Standstill?
Why no Dark Confidant, Loam Engine, Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral Vision, any other established card draw or even draw engines like Tax Rack?

Why is Stifle preferred over Torpor Orb (and Hushbringer, Hushwing Gryff, Tocatli Honor Guard) despite being card disadvantage with Nought?

You know, if I built a Dreadnought deck from scratch, I'd rather start it in the colors BW with Hunted Horror, Confidant, Vial, Discard, Torpor Orb effects, Scroll and Mother of Runes.

[Mr. Safety]

It happens. The rules are confusing and the confusing ones are even more so.

I once beat Chris Pikula in a Vintage tournament specifically because of that interaction with respect to Iona (in that case), so anyone could misinterpret it. (He didn't believe me, but the Judge made it clear that I was not misinforming him, :laugh:.)

On Scroll of Fate, how has anyone else's testing been going? I know Rood's been trying it, anyone jamming it with Standstill? Or is it just not worth it?

I have been testing 2 copies in mono-blue, no standstills (playing Ponder instead.) I am combo-ing more often this way, which I feel is better than sitting behind Standstill. It allows me to play Winter Orb in my sideboard, which I absolutely love (no Factories main.)

I like the new Gargoyle quite a bit, it may push me towards something like Thought Scour to enable it. I think it's absolutely hilarious that it can protect itself from Terminus provided it isn't summoning sick.

@sco0ter: The original idea of Dreadstill was to Stifle a Fetch, Wasteland a dual, land a Dreadnought or Standstill. If you could accomplish that with Daze/Force backup you were absurdly favored in a lot of matchups. I look at Stifle/Dreadnought as the most efficient way to get a 2-turn clock onto an opponent, outside of something like Death's Shadow. I actually think a Dreadnought/Shadow build might be pretty cool.

[Fox]

@sco0ter:
-Confidant is fine, better with Petal, but somewhat worse with Daze/Scroll (SDT banned). High risk card to play against Wrenn and Six.
-Loam doesn't make Dreadnoughts, so you pick 1 thing to be doing: making Lage or making Dreadnoughts. A better card than Loam is Wrenn and Six.
-TFK is either too slow, or requires Sol Lands which means you should be on Chalice (not as great when Dreadnought is 1cmc, but Scroll helps some here).
-Ancestral Vision makes you worse vs combo, and you have to be able to remove Narset and Teferi.
-Tax Rack takes quite a bit to set up, and requires lots of basics (making Brainstorm worse). You also will likely run out of slots to support a Dreadnought package.

-Stifle hits lands, making both Wasteland and Daze better.
-Torpor Orb doesn't die to removal; for the others to be reliable you would kind of need to be playing Vial as well. All of these are less reliable than Scroll of Fate.

Dreadnought is a primarily blue card; there are some exceptions but not many. So in your proposed build you're already losing to Wrenn and Six and Plague Engineer (x/1s), and you're also playing multiple cards to the board which ensures you overextend into wrath effects. Your list lacks counter-magic, and while it would have discard this isn't enough to stop combo. Your list is too linear/too predictable, which takes away win %. Some examples of how not-blue decks have to be constructed to compete (though I don't know why Dreadnought is their preferred threat): https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23107&d=358760&f=LE & https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22118&d=349569&f=LE.

[colo]

I found some time for Legacy today, and participated in our weekly no-entry-fee tournament, with around 20 people attending. I piloted these 76 to a 3-0-1 finish in first place:


4 Scroll of Fate
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Preordain
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
8 Island
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Repeal
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Back to Basics


The sideboard is going to get updated; it's just a rag-tag gang of assorted "common picks" of SB cards I found resting in a box on my desk at home.

I beat 4c W&6 Control 2-0, then BUG Snow Control 2-0, then drew 1-1 against another 4c Walker Control, and beat Turbo Depths 2-0 in the finals. I don't have any experience with the archetype and came into the tournament totally unprepared (except maybe half an hour of goldfishing two weeks ago), but the deck got into gear really, really well really quickly and consistently. I think I'll be keeping it at this for the next few tournaments (but I did get my playset of Reality Shift today, which is going to stir up things :))

[Rood]

The Mono Blue lists should be using a creature base of

4x Gargoyle
4x Dreadnought
4x Scroll

With 4x Vision charms. The whole idea is you can use charm to power on Dreadnought...faze out to protect all your threats.. Or mill your opponent 4 cards to turn on Gargoyle. It pulls triple duty. @colo how was Counterbalance?

Edit: colo’s list without Stratus and with Gargoyle

[colo]

@colo how was Counterbalance?

Awesome! It did loads of work, mostly on its own (without cantrip support) :) It was also one of the "oh, shit!" cards that made people get themselves into thermonuclear counter wars, and quite understandably so. Good card is good.

[Rood]

I’ve been wanting to use the card again just so tight on slots. Its a sweet idea tho

[crispymelee]

The Mono Blue lists should be using a creature base of

4x Gargoyle
4x Dreadnought
4x Scroll

With 4x Vision charms. The whole idea is you can use charm to power on Dreadnought...faze out to protect all your threats.. Or mill your opponent 4 cards to turn on Gargoyle. It pulls triple duty. @colo how was Counterbalance?

Edit: colo’s list without Stratus and with Gargoyle

This is more of a rules question than anything since I don't have any experience running this deck. But just making sure... you can use Vision Charm targeting Phyrexian Dreadnought in response to its ETB triggered ability, causing it to phase out. Then next turn you don't have to play Stifle or anything bc of rule 702.25d?

Stiflenought/Dreadstill has always been a neat deck I've wanted to pilot, but I just haven't brewed up a list to take somewhere. Now that I'm getting back into MtG, I'm checking out all my old favorites.

[Fox]

This is more of a rules question than anything since I don't have any experience running this deck. But just making sure... you can use Vision Charm targeting Phyrexian Dreadnought in response to its ETB triggered ability, causing it to phase out. Then next turn you don't have to play Stifle or anything bc of rule 702.25d?

Stiflenought/Dreadstill has always been a neat deck I've wanted to pilot, but I just haven't brewed up a list to take somewhere. Now that I'm getting back into MtG, I'm checking out all my old favorites.



The battlefield is best conceptualized as two half-zones [phased-in half and phased-out half], added together called the "battlefield zone." When you phase-out zone-change'y things happen (remove from combat, all continuous effects end). Previously this exiled tokens - this makes sense b/c they effectively made a half-zone change (so just like a token ceases to exist~is exiled when it attempts to change zones, so too did it happen here).

Bringing it back to Dreadnought, it entered the [phased-in] battlefield and triggers -> you Vision Charm it to the [phased-out] battlefield -> the trigger will resolve but do nothing (default choice = I choose to sac the thing that made the trigger, which I cannot sac, the trigger is now resolved).

The first part of every untap step begins with phasing-in, and then untapping*. You will then move to upkeep checking SBAs. Note that the Dreadnought was continuously in the overall battlefield zone, so logically it cannot re-enter and trigger, as it never left. Note also the Dreadnought never left the battlefield zone - it never became a new object - so just like a creature that never phased-out it doesn't gain haste, it's been under your control from the start of the turn so it is no longer affected by summoning sickness.

*note that the 'controller' of the untap step phases in the things they controlled at the time which it was phased out. The simple version is Dreadnought comes back on your next untap. A more complex rule set is generated by phasing something out which you were supposed to lose control of after the turn ended (think Ray of Command type cards).

[optml]

Can I ask about a card choice.
Why Stratus Dancer over Voidmage Apprentice?

I think the main reason to play Stratus is the interaction with the Scroll of Fate. If main use is with Scroll, it's better to use Voidmage. Of course, it's better if Scroll doesn't come in, or gets destroyed. But if that's the case, there are better cards than Stratus to counter instants and sorceries.

Or is it the extra 3/1 body + flying that helps sway it?

Any thoughts?

[Rood]

Since people have been asking about my Scroll lists I will post it with an update...I went 3-1 at my weekly today with this list. Since Scrolls inclusion I will say the card has done more then put in work for the deck.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Scroll of Fate
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare (Possibly considering reverting this to Pierce in this hostile control meta.)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Force of Negation
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Negation
2 Snap
2 Misdirection


My rounds tonight were

1-2 Blood moon chalice (Seriously should never lose this MU I misplayed a Standstill when he had Pyromancer in the GY to flashback)
2-1 D&T (Sanctum Prelate at 1 gets trumped all day by Scroll of Fate. He also could not swords my Dreadnought under it)
2-0 Depths. Postboard we just get stronger against them. Misdirections and snaps are very good here.
2-1 Grixis Control. Scroll won my both games in this set...He wasn't able to find a way to destroy it quick enough.

Out of my 7 wins Scroll contributed to 5 victories. Out of my losses Scroll was also very useful. I recommend people running Dreadnought to be on 4 of these at the moment.

[colo]

Why Stratus Dancer over Voidmage Apprentice?
[...]
Or is it the extra 3/1 body + flying that helps sway it?

Yes! (Although it's 3/2 after being flipped.) Even a 2/1 flyer can be what you need sometimes - and if it's just to stop the bleeding from a resolved Delver of Secrets... - while a vanilla 1/1 rarely is. I've previously played Stratus Dancer in Sea Drake Stompy, and was very happy with it there. I'm actually doubtful that the spoiled Vantress Gargoyle provides enough of an upside (strategically speaking) to warrant a 1:1 exchange with Dancer.

[crispymelee]

/"education"

@Fox: Awesome answer, thanks for the clarification. It's cool to see that the deck has evolved far beyond the 4x Stifle + 1-2x Trickbind package to cheat 'Nought into play, from lists I remember. I'm just a fan of anything running Standstill tbh.

@Rood: I remember your lists from waaay back in the day, awesome to see you still piloting and managing the deck here. Wish MTGS had people as dedicated. Thanks for letting us have a look at your most recent list.

Having not read the whole thread yet, what's the theory behind the R splash vs W or B? I can see R being far more beneficial in U-heavy/non-basic heavy metas and for a bit more reach with Bolts. Do W and B not offer enough to support/protect throwing down 'Nought vs combo/gy-based decks? Appreciate any insight you'd have, look forward to catching up in the thread.

[Rood]

I like white splash for Teferi and Swords. I haven’t tested it yet but I know Fox plays a UW build that doesnt have Delver and runs Teferi and Karn

[Tobitzki]

great to see so much renewed interest in the Twelvers and all this activity in this forum. I've been on Stiflenought for about a year and would strongly advise new players to work their way back through the whole thread, it's such a deep well of knowledge & information. (also major props to @Rood, @Yan, @Fox & the rest for not defecting to Discord yet).

@Rood: List looks tight, thanks for sharing. (Alright, I'll try 4 Scrolls.) One question: When do you bring in the Dismembers? I'm assuming that it's pretty play/draw dependent and mostly against particular problem creatures like Thalia? Having access to black, I can't for the life of me decide on the correct number (0-3) of Pushes / Murderous Cut / Tyrant's Scorn in the side.

[Rood]

Matchups I tend to bring in Dismember against

Eldrazi
Midrange Rock (GRB, GRW)
RUG Delver (blows up Goyf)
Death's Shadow
Goblins
Elves
Death and Taxes
BUG Delver or midrange
Blood Moon chalice
Grixis control if on Gurmags w/ Baleful Strix (many builds have since cut Gurmags)

(Alot of the time some of these MUs it's okay to shave in just 2 Dismembers if you are on the play. But on the draw I like having all the extra removal)

[Tobitzki]

ok, yea that makes sense. And have you tried Magmatic Sinkhole in that spot (or a split w/ Dismembers)? Kills PWs and easier on the life but might not be on right away. My other very modest suggestion for your list would be going with a mix of off-color fetches?

[Rood]

ok, yea that makes sense. And have you tried Magmatic Sinkhole in that spot (or a split w/ Dismembers)? Kills PWs and easier on the life but might not be on right away. My other very modest suggestion for your list would be going with a mix of off-color fetches?

Blue fetches don’t matter in my list you can go 2/2/2/1 if you wanted. I dont run basic mountain. I’ve been wanting to test Sinkhole but i dont like the fact you cant clear a T1 threat with it off a turn 2 Standstill. Also being able to fetch basic island and not be vulnerable to wasteland is nice.

[crispymelee]

great to see so much renewed interest in the Twelvers and all this activity in this forum. I've been on Stiflenought for about a year and would strongly advise new players to work their way back through the whole thread, it's such a deep well of knowledge & information. (also major props to @Rood, @Yan, @Fox & the rest for not defecting to Discord yet).


Having recently found a box with my competitive "1.5" decks from almost a decade ago, my curiosity got the better of me and I came back to checking out the Source and MTGS. While I'm bummed that major development in Salvation seems to have stalled, it's awesome to see players like Fox and Rood carrying the torch here on the Source, particularly in Landstill which was my poison of choice.

Looking at prices these days...I'll just say I'm glad I acquired my manabase 10 years ago, along with my set of judge Noughts :tongue:

Bringing the post to being on topic; If I go Dreadstill instead of Landstill next month at Knight-Ware, it'll probably be something close to this, unless my look at the meta at the LGS favors R > W:


Lands - 20
4x Flooded Strand
4x Prismatic Vista
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Tundra
4x Island
1x Plains
Creatures - 10
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Snapcaster Mage
Instants - 22
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
3x Vision Charm
Other - 7
4x Standstill
3x Scroll of Fate
1x [open slot]?


Couple questions/observations:
- Seems that 20 lands seems to be the optimized number for Dreadstill. I've taken a cue from Fox in the LS thread and went for a manabase that I hope will be resilient against non-basic hate.
- Scroll of Fate is essentially the fixed/new Aether Vial, right? What I like is that Scroll can turn "dead" cards into a Bear at least, so I guess drawing them late isn't as bad as drawing the old Vial. It reminds me of Top and Vial in that I want Scroll every game, but I don't want them clogging up my hand, so I'm thinking 3. Could easily be 4 though....
- which brings me to the singleton question. Is the 4th Vision Charm a better card than some one-off finisher, bomb, or utility (ala Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Academy Ruins, E-Tutor, or even Karn, the Great Creator with Crucible + other artifacts in the SB)? I'm sure this will be meta dependent, but I've always favored a toolboxy approach to things.
- SB TBD

EDIT:
- forgot to add: I felt safe with the cutting back of the 4th Vision Charm and the 4th Scroll, due to addition of SCM in their place.

[Tobitzki]

Lands - 20
4x Flooded Strand
4x Prismatic Vista
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Tundra
4x Island
1x Plains
Creatures - 10
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Snapcaster Mage
Instants - 22
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
3x Vision Charm
Other - 7
4x Standstill
3x Scroll of Fate
1x [open slot]?




Don't forget to pack your Swords! :P Alas, these lists are too tight to run more than 1-2 Vision Charms. I'd go -1 Snare -2 Charms +3 StP here. For that final slot consider Swords #4, Scroll #4 (see @Rood's comments above) or little Teferi, that guy is a house.

[Rood]

I would def run Gargoyle in that Vision Charm shell. Gargoyle and Vision charm are made for one another because of the mil effect. Id strait cut Snaps for him

[Fox]

@crispymelee
I've seen no positive correlation between UW winning and picking up lands with Daze in legacy in any archetype. For the time being, let's just say these are StP. I feel like your list is supposed to have white cards in it, but I don't see any??

Assuming you're trying to make a white list, the main thing you're gaining access to with white is not actually having to try and proactively win the game. It's pretty easy to sit behind Plow and spam Verdicts, and likely to be a more winning approach than playing Delver with only 22 cards to flip it. White cards are pretty linear and unimaginative, and why that matters is that they are rather antagonistic to pressuring a life total [ex. StP], so Delver is not really at home here. As a side note, SCM should never be in a list with Delver (especially if trying to Wasteland and Daze aggressively).

Gargoyle is fine, but as with Delver you're kinda saying you want to beat down in a color that doesn't like this plan (there is also a non-harmonious sideboard RiP issue with Gargoyle). Maybe some other color combo wants to use him, but I get the sneaking suspicion this guy is Pterimander 2.0. The idea of discarding a Vision Charm to ramp a Snapcaster opponent 4 cards towards a removal spell seems like a poor play pattern, as does growing a Goyf you're trying to race. Vision Charm is probably my favourite card in the game (not that one can separate it from Nought), but I've never been able to justify it in UW; for me this is a UB card. To play Charm you are assuming an offensive role; so again, the color mismatch with white comes back to the forefront. I think the 2x of a value dude is fine [order of increasing risk: SCM~JVP, Fathom Seer, Dancer, Hannah~Emry]. Regardless of build choice would cut 1x Vista for a Karakas.

Whether or not you're going to try and force tempo out of UW is a pretty big choice, but I think that ship sailed when they printed Teferi. This card is just too stupid with manlands to not play like ~3x in UW builds. The importance of totally free attacks for murdering PWs like Narset really can't be understated. Note the significant issues with trying to cast Teferi and picking up lands - even if the Teferi can be resolved in this situation, you'll want to have Verdict over Daze in your list. The upside of staying on the tempo side of things is that you're playing in one month, and a tempo build does not really require non-stop role evaluation; there will be fewer ways to make mistakes at the cost of really unlocking white's potential. If you have the cards, I think UR is still the most-winning tempo shell for Delver/Dreadnought - and this color is about to get a non-Duress'able bounce spell for Lage: Brazen Borrower (apparently creature in all zones except on stack as instant).

---

Concerning your question about R vs W vs B splash:
-Red has Bolt which is part of a count to 20 unifying strategy; the backup plan is removal. Red blasts in the board, option of maindeck Lavamancer (another card that counts to 20 and doubles as removal).
-White has Plow, Karakas, and Teferi so optimally you're sitting back and playing a control deck that can make 12/12s, but doesn't really have to (most similar to original Dreadstill playstyles, whereas current UR is counter-burn abbreviated by Standstills)
-Black is the most skill intensive competitive color combo (UG is higher skill, but lacks tools to compete at this time), but is also the most glass-cannon'y.

[crispymelee]

Don't forget to pack your Swords! :P Alas, these lists are too tight to run more than 1-2 Vision Charms. I'd go -1 Snare -2 Charms +3 StP here. For that final slot consider Swords #4, Scroll #4 (see @Rood's comments above) or little Teferi, that guy is a house.

Whoops. I slapped that list together while at work. Your recommendation is exactly what was on my brain, but just didn't make it onto the post ("free" slow being 4th StP. I knew something looked "off".

+4 StP
-2 Vision Charms
-1 Spell Snare

I'd love to fit either Teferi or even JtMS in, but Rood's right, slots DO seem pretty tight for Dreadstill lists.


I would def run Gargoyle in that Vision Charm shell. Gargoyle and Vision charm are made for one another because of the mil effect. Id strait cut Snaps for him

Makes sense. If I actually was running that many VC, it'd totally make sense to run what I assume to be Vantress Gargoyle. As it is, that was definitely a typo. :P


@crispymelee
/snip for length


First off, thank you for the thoughtful response; this goes for Rood and Tobi as well. You've given me a lot to think about. Regarding the "Don't pair Delver and SCM" statement, I came up with this: SCM likes to have mana around to fully take advantage of Flashback. Tempo decks (esp those with Delver) tend to have very limited access to mana between Daze costs, Wasteland, etc. In short, the archetypes Delver and SCM support individually, tend to not play nicely together. Am I on the right track here?

Some more silly questions while I'm getting back up to speed
- I've seen "RiP" get mentioned several times, in this thread and elsewhere. What is this?

For a summarized version if anyone happens to be following, this is what I've gleaned:
- Vision Charm is versatile; if you run more than 2, it plays nicely with Vantress Gargoyle. Downside is that you could play into gy.dek/Goyf/SCM for "just" a 5/4.
- UR, UW, UB are certainly all viable
- UR is the most "straightforward" version of the deck. Bolts for some extra reach, removal of a critical target, etc.
- UW lends itself to a more "read and react" version; definitely more similar to Landstill. UW should be seen as a control that happens to be able to drop a 12/12 beater, as opposed to a tempo-deck with control elements.
- UB; not gonna consider at the moment, since I don't have the relevant cards to support it anyways haha.

[Tylert]

[color=purple]Some more silly questions while I'm getting back up to speed
- I've seen "RiP" get mentioned several times, in this thread and elsewhere. What is this?


RiP = Rest in piece (Anti grave enchantement).

[crispymelee]

RiP = Rest in piece (Anti grave enchantement).

...I hate when the obvious answer is the right one. Makes me paranoid :laugh:

Thanks for the response, didn't know this existed. Tormod's and Faerie Macabre were my previous gy-hate of choice.

[colo]

I cannot imagine that playing fewer than a full playset Scoll of Fate is correct while this card is legal. It just fixes to many problems, and even enables a grindy backup-plan to win on the back of an endless stream of 2/2s. The only game that I lost decisively so far was when my opponent Pithing Needled my Scroll and I had no means of dealing with that (and no alternative win condition came up in time).

[Fox]

Actually had some extra time so I got to play legacy, 10 people showed up so 4 rounds! Ended up 3-1 today. Decks in the room were:
-UW-OmniTell
-Jessica Mentor
-Hootie and the ProFish
-UR value-ish Delver/Arcanist (had Stifle, which kind of turns it directly into worse than UR Dreadstill - never play Arcanist with Stifle)
-Wrenn and Strix (4c Snow Jammy Jams)
-Elves!
-Maverick w/ Depths/Mox (kinda like AggroLoam except no Loam or Chalice)
-Moon Stompy (may not have had any Goblin token makers)
-B/R Reanimator
-and myself on Manifest Destiny

R1 vs UW-OmniTell (0-2). This is a pretty good matchup, just didn't have land drops, followed by Standstills whiffing on lands and permission. Of note, they don't lose quite as hard to Humility with Teferi.

R2 vs Moon Stompy (2-0). They lose both games to Karn lockout (Chrome Moxen dead, no lands in play) and 2/2 beats from Factory and Scroll.

R3 vs Maverick w/ Depths (2-1). They win game one after a pretty clutch Azcanta ramp into Verdict, responding with Crop Rot for the 20/20; no Plow so I couldn't take any different lines. Game 2 they die to fast Nought, all their resources [hand] went into 2x Needles which did nothing. Game 3 is another 2 Needle game, but 2x uncracked Vista on board vindicated Needle #1; I played other lands and opponent eventually died to Teferi into Teeg dies into Karn tutors Powder Keg. They also Path'd me into blue mana while dropping Needle #2 onto Scroll of Fate (this is what really unlocked the losing to Teferi spiral -> Karn wishes back Path'd Nought, etc...). Teferi really butchers their deck's power sources [Crop Rot and Veil of Summer], adding on Scroll and all their removal dies too.
To illustrate how this one went with life totals: they lost maybe 1-2 life on Fetches in game 3, then a hit for 3 from an animated Scroll, and on their last turn they played KotR and EoT I dump Dreadnought into play face-down (Needle had died the turn before) -> untap, Teferi bounce KotR and it's a swing for 17 (Dread + Scroll as 3/3 + Factory), and they can't cast any spells.

R4 vs B/R Reanimator (2-0). Game 1 they're on a mull to 5 and run into a Noxious Revival; this is a long game where I can't get any mana; they will eventually get a Grisel and draw 14, lose Grisel to Plow then lose Tidespout to Plow as well, then Grisel #2 loses the race to Factory + 12/12 b/c I have 15 life. Game 2 I mull to 6 vs an opener of on-the-play discard to handsize plan from oppo; they run into Crypt and Noxious and timely Dreadnought x2 duress both Decays from their hand so they can never get rid of the yard hate which has become Ashiok. Time is bought for Karn to come out and wish up Nought #3 [from the board] and they concede. Of note here, I have zero dudes they can steal - this is critically relevant in this matchup.

@colo sort of on the Scroll, for UW the optimal is closer to 1x main, 1x SB. The best way to maximize the Scroll is to be doing something else with your deck which takes pressure off Scroll (and Dreadnought) to perform. That's the issue with mono-U (I assume you're on), it's kind of impossible to move towards winning without directly answering cards that antagonize Scroll, and while phasing out Needle for a turn (or bouncing once Borrower is legal) does something, it's pretty all-in as you probably needed 2 connections.

[colo]

@Fox: I don't feel that mono U is as reliant on Scroll as you seem to paint the picture here - my list still has 7 pieces to enable "hardcast" Phyrexian Dreadnought, and with enough counter(balance) backup, that often seems to be enough. I would appreciate another avenue towards winning (apart from beating down with Stratus Dancer ;)), but I feel like the deck has the necessary tools to make one of the existing and included strategies work well enough in most cases. Maybe Brazen Borrower can fill that role, albeit probably not as decisively as I'd want to.

[Fox]

I haven't seen much success from hardcast Dreadnought since DTT was legal. You can have all the cantrips you want, but when you keep using them to find a self 2-for-1 (which mono-U is really reliant on) you do run out of cards, ending up with a hand without a plan. You definitely have to keep in cards Dancer in mono-U to try and virtually increase the size of your hand.

I assume your list has Vision Charm so Needle should be the least of your worries. I'd be much more concerned about too many cantrips + too much reliance on Scroll vs C. Priest, Narset, and non-artifact Null Rod effects. There's a lot you need to be able to answer which was traded for Stratus Dancer doing things like countering K-Grips for days.

[Tobitzki]

just dropping my quick take on what an updated Mono-U list might look like from ELD forward (piggybacking on @Rood's remark on the new threat suite from a few days ago).

12 Dreadnought | Gargoyle | Scroll
2 Dancer
1 Borrower

24 BS | Ponder | Force | Daze | Stifle | V Charm
1 Misdirection

1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
7 Fetches
7 Islands

I'll be holding on to UB with discard & JVPs for the time being, but the pure fire power here looks pretty scary.

EDIT: I also very much like the Counterbalance version, which gets a huge upgrade in Mystic Sanctuary (so strong with Daze!), although I'd probably splash red (2 Volcs, no mountain) for Bolts over Vision Charms there.

[maharis]

I’ve been tooling around with the mono U list, and I just have to say that Fathom Seer is insane. Still trying to figure out the Delver MU though, I tried red splash for magmatic sinkhole and Abrade and it was ok, but still a lot to manage in that matchup


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[Rood]

just dropping my quick take on what an updated Mono-U list might look like from ELD forward (piggybacking on @Rood's remark on the new threat suite from a few days ago).

12 Dreadnought | Gargoyle | Scroll


This may just be the threat of the future for this deck. Delver might just be worse then Gargoyle in the Vision charm builds. I wanna test him for sure. Blinking him in off Scroll seems totally busted as well

@Brazen Borrower: This card is bananas but I strictly like it in the Standstill builds and for the ponder builds in the board. I think it just plays so well blink into Standstill

[colo]

I’ve been tooling around with the mono U list, and I just have to say that Fathom Seer is insane.

I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?

[Fox]

I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?
Mishra‘s Workshop for face-down: Scroll of Fate. The deck you referenced was a creature-feature deck (or a Blade deck, near the end of thread), we‘re much closer to a spells-matter, combo deck. Those lands a Seer would return to hand are coming back as EoT PW-killin‘ 2/2s.

Dreadnought is the anathema of dude decks and zero-strategy tap-out-and-jam value ETB nonsense. We are a mixture of:
-Standstill
-Elves who don‘t need an untap step, Stasis who would deny the untap step, and we who would exploit the controlled absence of an untap step. It should not be surprising that Elves also has a strategy of turning their dudes into Dreadnoughts for a single turn
-pseudo-Delver ~ combo control: UB Reanimator, Infect, Shadow
-UB Tezz and MUD who are the prisons, and we are the prison breaker

With the exception of prison vs prison breaker, any of the above matchups is basically a mirror match.

[Mr. Safety]

If I can get the cards in time, this is what I'll be piloting at my local October 26th 1K:

4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique


Sideboard is a little loose, but serviceable. My local metagame never matches the overall meta. One of the more difficult matchups, at least that I've experienced, for Stifle-Nought is Miracles. Vision Charm can be used in response to the Terminus miracle trigger. Gargoyle seems very good, and has been noted Scroll is the nuts.

[Fox]

Don‘t cast Vision Charm until they resolve a Terminus trigger, pay the :w: and put it on the stack @Mr. Safety

[Mr. Safety]

Don‘t cast Vision Charm until they resolve a Terminus trigger, pay the :w: and put it on the stack @Mr. Safety

I was thinking of milling them for 4 not phasing my dude. Milling them for 4 mills Terminus into their graveyard in {EDIT} if I suspect they have it on top. Phasing is the better option if I only have one creature because my creature will phase back in.

EDIT: Vision Charm is a surprisingly complicated card against miracle triggers. I clarified my statement a bit.

[filln]

I was thinking of milling them for 4 not phasing my dude. Milling them for 4 mills Terminus into their graveyard in response to the trigger. I think there are 2 interactions possible here, lol. I think yours is the better option with only one creature because my creature will phase back in, but if I have more than one creature out then milling them for 4 seems better.

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

[crispymelee]

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

Piggybacking off the "army of 2/2s" idea, it's worth mentioning that answers such as Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse will only remove 1 manifested card at a time; as they have "no name", they don't share names with any other permanents and therefore can't be removed en masse with "same name as other permanents" removal. Just a little fun aside.

[Mr. Safety]

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

I was thinking I would likely be able to 'smell' a Terminus coming, but I worded it wrong. Doing it in response to the trigger only works for phasing my artifact out, if I want to mill them I would have to do it in response to their Brainstorm (likely scenario during my turn) or the upkeep on the following turn after they cast a Ponder.

I got my situations mixed a little, thanks for the clarification.

Is Fathom Seer better than Standstill with Scroll of Fate? It seems bonkers by turning extra Islands on the battlefield into 2/2's in the mid-late game.

[PirateKing]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

[Mr. Safety]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

I was only able to nab 2 of them from Troll&Toad, looks like they are out of stock again. :(

[H]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

TCGPlayer has several sellers with 4+ copies. I got my 3 "extra" copies off TCGPlayer on release day.

[Fox]

I buy from Card Kingdom b/c they keep legacy 1ks alive on west coast.

[Rood]

I think the Brazen Borrower should be replacing all bounce going forward. Its a dual threat and just as good against most matchups. I like your list Safety good luck.

Because this has come up...if you guys are concerned with control (Grixis, Miracles) Dispel is an extremely good sideboard option. Counters Fow, Brainstorm, Swords, Push, Kolagan’s Command, Bolt, Edict etc. i also love Misdirection effects. Pierce just isnt reliable at stopping control because they can always pay for a swords or push.

[Mr. Safety]

I nabbed everything, looks like i'm slinging dreadnoughts in October.

Is Academy Ruins something i should jam in there? All my threats are artifacts now, so it makes sense. Not sure where to cut, likely the Pierce/Snare. I could also cut a Daze, but not sure.

[Fox]

I can't imagine a Stronghold land is ever going to perform better than Noxious Revival (offensive mode = counter Reanimate + time walk). Like maybe you can make some argument if you have zero ways to recur Noxious, but even then I think Noxious is still better. Past that, you'd also have to get to the point of saying that a card that requires 3 lands to activate is better than a Karn, which actually puts a card in hand (to include a Dreadnought in exile). On some level you're also competing with Hieroglyphic Illumination + Mystic Sanctuary or Bone Harvest (which was printed at :1::b: in this new set)...I think I'd also have to be convinced as to why we're playing Stronghold over Drafna's Restoration (which I would guess has been reprinted at some point as a :u:-colored Argivian Find).

[Tobitzki]

4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique




list looks solid, couple nitpicks: I'd add a 19th, possibly even a 20th, land, probably over the 3rd Dismember and the MD T Orb. Without Delvers the threat curve looks 8x2cmc (incl. 4x PhD+Stifle/Charm) plus 4x3cmc. A while back I was defending my 18 land count against the same argument put forth by @Fox and pointed out that we're the rare tempo deck that taps Wastelands for mana while being WL-proof ourselves. But your curve w/o 1drop threats is considerably higher.

Enter Academy Ruins: I hear the argument on Noxious Revival (especially in a Delver build), but the cost of including Ruins here is practically nonexistent: It's serviceable (i.e. untapped) mana with an uncounterable mid-late-game tutor attached. (bonus jank play: Vision-mill yourself to dig for a threat or SB artifact.) The only downside really is giving opps a WL target. In my draft I added Ghost Quarter as my 20th land (& 5th WL), which depending on your meta (RUG & Depth much?) could be v strong I think.

The inclusion of AR would also be a fun way of turning a couple of Counterbalances out of the side into a silly/pseudo Countertop softlock in some games.

Final comment, @Mr Safety: All this artifact overload really calls for at least 1-2 Misdirection effects out of the board, no?

Good luck!

[Rood]

I updated the primer to include the newest UW and UR builds. I was going to make a new thread all together...but I think i'll slowly update this one for you guys. (Used mine and Fox's lists). I might post a mono blue list as well tough to tell which is optimal yet.

If we can give a clear consensus as to which build is optimal I will post it.

[Mr. Safety]

list looks solid, couple nitpicks: I'd add a 19th, possibly even a 20th, land, probably over the 3rd Dismember and the MD T Orb. Without Delvers the threat curve looks 8x2cmc (incl. 4x PhD+Stifle/Charm) plus 4x3cmc. A while back I was defending my 18 land count against the same argument put forth by @Fox and pointed out that we're the rare tempo deck that taps Wastelands for mana while being WL-proof ourselves. But your curve w/o 1drop threats is considerably higher.

Enter Academy Ruins: I hear the argument on Noxious Revival (especially in a Delver build), but the cost of including Ruins here is practically nonexistent: It's serviceable (i.e. untapped) mana with an uncounterable mid-late-game tutor attached. (bonus jank play: Vision-mill yourself to dig for a threat or SB artifact.) The only downside really is giving opps a WL target. In my draft I added Ghost Quarter as my 20th land (& 5th WL), which depending on your meta (RUG & Depth much?) could be v strong I think.

The inclusion of AR would also be a fun way of turning a couple of Counterbalances out of the side into a silly/pseudo Countertop softlock in some games.

Final comment, @Mr Safety: All this artifact overload really calls for at least 1-2 Misdirection effects out of the board, no?

Good luck!

Good thoughts, thanks. I will do this:
-1 Torpor Orb
+1 Academy Ruins

For the sideboard:
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Winter Orb
+2 Misdirection
+1 Torpor Orb

I like Misdirection against mid-range decks like Maverick/Jund and Grixis/4C Control, basically anything that looks to sling 2-for-1's like Hymn to Tourach and KCommand. I also like the Academy Ruins over Torpor Orb maindeck, with the Torpor Orb in the board. It's got a ton of value against Death and Taxes, a popular local choice.


I updated the primer to include the newest UW and UR builds. I was going to make a new thread all together...but I think i'll slowly update this one for you guys. (Used mine and Fox's lists). I might post a mono blue list as well tough to tell which is optimal yet.

If we can give a clear consensus as to which build is optimal I will post it.

I'll get a report up after the 10/26 local 1K. I was really intriqued with the suggestion you made of a threat suite of 4x Dread/Gargoyle/Scroll along with 4x Vision Charm. My gut tells me 4x Vision Charm is too many, but I don't know right now. I might cut 1 for a singleton Vapor Snag (very good against a few specific decks, most notably Dark Depths and Death's Shadow.)

[Rood]

Good thoughts, thanks. I will do this:
-1 Torpor Orb
+1 Academy Ruins

For the sideboard:
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Winter Orb
+2 Misdirection
+1 Torpor Orb

I like Misdirection against mid-range decks like Maverick/Jund and Grixis/4C Control, basically anything that looks to sling 2-for-1's like Hymn to Tourach and KCommand. I also like the Academy Ruins over Torpor Orb maindeck, with the Torpor Orb in the board. It's got a ton of value against Death and Taxes, a popular local choice.

Where's the Brazen Borrowers at? I feel like the card is so good as a sideboard option for us.

[Mr. Safety]

Where's the Brazen Borrowers at? I feel like the card is so good as a sideboard option for us.

I'm having a hard time acquiring them. As far as Eldraine goes, Gargoyles were cheap and available, but I haven't been able to snag the BB's yet. If I get them they will replace the ETruths in the sideboard.

[Rood]

Let me know how Gargoyle testing goes. I am hesitant to cut Delver for him but if he proves to be the truth I might consider it.

[Mr. Safety]

I am skeptical as well, especially since t1 Delver is really strong. I might end up cutting 2x Gargoyle/2x Charm to get the Delvers back in. It makes the deck a little more heavy on threats (14), which should be fine. That still gives me 24 instants/sorceries to feed delver synergies. It might be correct to just play 4 Delver/4 Dread/4 Scroll. That gives me a threat on each point of the curve. (I'm counting Dreadnougt as a 2 drop.)

[H]

One thing that is interesting about Gargoyle, in itself, is that it has 5 power. Which means, in the magical christmas-land of convenient math, 12 ('naught) + 5 (Gargoyle) + 3 (Bolt) has your opponent dead. Of course, that is a great deal of contingent things, two of which "need" Scroll to pull off, but it's not impossible, per se.

[Michael Keller]

If I can get the cards in time, this is what I'll be piloting at my local October 26th 1K:

4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique


Sideboard is a little loose, but serviceable. My local metagame never matches the overall meta. One of the more difficult matchups, at least that I've experienced, for Stifle-Nought is Miracles. Vision Charm can be used in response to the Terminus miracle trigger. Gargoyle seems very good, and has been noted Scroll is the nuts.

Isn’t Illusionary Mask almost strictly better than the Torpor Orb to bypass Chalice game one?

[Fox]

Isn’t Illusionary Mask almost strictly better than the Torpor Orb to bypass Chalice game one?

Already have 4x Scroll in that list to beat Chalice. Torpor Orb is a better additional effect (if one is desired) as it both disrupts and enables.

[maharis]

I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?

This thread has been moving a lot faster than I expected but it’s basically as Fox said. Once you get Scroll in play you don’t need as many lands. We are mostly free/1-2 cmc besides It, and you also need juice for it. So you make lands into 2/2s as much as you can and use the gas from the draw to apply more pressure or interact. (I play 4 force will 2 force negation 4 daze as my disruption suite)


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[colo]

Once you get Scroll in play you don’t need as many lands.

I acknowledge this is true, but what does Fathom Seer leave on the table when your Scroll of Fate isn't there, or has been dealt with? Stifle-Nought is a strong enough combo to stand on its own, and even Stratus Dancer doesn't suck after flipping, but Seer... I can't really see it.

[sco0ter]

Isn’t Illusionary Mask almost strictly better than the Torpor Orb to bypass Chalice game one?

This hint now makes me think, if playing Chalice on our own is a good idea. What do you think about a core like this:


4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Myr Superion
X Trinket Mage

4 Scroll of Fate
4 Illusionary Mask

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


The benefits of Mask are: plays well with Chalice and does not disturb Trinket Mage (unlike Orb).

[Fox]

I think Trinket Mage has been too slow for legacy since late 2011. The thing about stompy shells is that they really can't handle their own variance, and this will become a more pressing problem if you're running 4x Mask on top of 4x Scroll. When we start reaching for cards like Myr Superion (which could also have been Lupine Prototype), it's best to remember that playing Goyf alongside Dreadnought disappeared in late 2011 as well. Power without protection (Sol Lands) and power without a plan (Goyf) are not the best launching point for Dreadnought.

[Michael Keller]

My list runs green for Sylvan Safekeeper, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library and a small Crop Rotation package in the sideboard.

[sco0ter]

I think Trinket Mage has been too slow for legacy since late 2011. The thing about stompy shells is that they really can't handle their own variance, and this will become a more pressing problem if you're running 4x Mask on top of 4x Scroll. When we start reaching for cards like Myr Superion (which could also have been Lupine Prototype), it's best to remember that playing Goyf alongside Dreadnought disappeared in late 2011 as well. Power without protection (Sol Lands) and power without a plan (Goyf) are not the best launching point for Dreadnought.

Thanks for your insights. Myr Superion was just an idea, because it can be "cast" off Mask and Scroll and is colorless (for Stompy shell). Lupine Prototype still suffers the same problem (can't attack/block most of the time).

I am sorry, I am not too deep into the metagame in order to know, when and why certain cards (here Goyf and Trinket Mage) have disappeared from consideration.

I also know that blue Standstill variants are discussed here, but just wanted to provide some thoughts for a Stompy shell.

Also, I don't understand your last sentence. :frown: Power = Naught, protection = Sol lands (???), plan = Goyf?

The protection should come from the usual lock pieces (Spheres, Chalice).
I really have no clue if this is feasible or if it suffers from even more variance than other stompy shells, but I probably give it try.

[Michael Keller]

Already have 4x Scroll in that list to beat Chalice. Torpor Orb is a better additional effect (if one is desired) as it both disrupts and enables.

It should run Mask main instead with Orb out of the board to augment help against aggro decks like Goblins, Elves, etc. Chalice decks are far more ubiquitous in the format. It has a wider range of what it hits, but it also depends on your entire build.

[Tylert]

Also, I don't understand your last sentence. :frown: Power = Naught, protection = Sol lands (???), plan = Goyf?

Power without protection (Sol Lands) = You can play big things thanks to sol lands but have no protection
and power without a plan (Goyf) = You play a powerfull card that won't go anywhere because you did not build around it.

That's how i interpret Fox statement.

[Fox]

With Sol Lands you can't really react to what your opponent is doing, you're just putting stuff on table and hoping it's good enough. When this is your game plan, we have to ask why we don't take 16 slots (Mask/Scroll/Nought/Myr) and make it 8x slots of Rabblemaster/Warboss + 8x "must-counter" cards. Dreadnought in this shell isn't enabling a novel axis of interaction, but you would have chosen a build order loss vs Null Rod effects. This is a significant problem with Null Rod on a GSZ bear and other Chalice decks (already fairly immune to your Chalice) having 4x Karn. The Sol Lands, and cards they enable, have a very hard time protecting themselves from problems like these.

Goyf builds have a 2cmc sorc-speed guy that you kinda can't ever play into open mana ~ removal (moreso if they're on SCM). Goyf is also really bad against Storm; you're just asking to die to a turn 1 discard spell if you then tap out into them. This is the "no plan" aspect of Goyf: congrats on having an efficient threat that isn't going to work and doesn't become better in the setting of Dreadnought tech. This isn't just a Goyf issue, it's any card that looks like it. We'll see if Gargoyle can play differently in the setting of Vision Charm, but I think we've got the same problem of it being a dubious 2 mana play, and waiting for 3 mana (Vision Charm to protect) has a conflict with wanting to use 3 mana on Scroll. Reversing the play pattern [i.e. no play on turn 2, Scroll in Gargoyle face-down on turn 3] is pretty risky, going all-in on combat damage in the PW-phase of the game while Daze and Wasteland are dying in your hand, but can at least be turned into 2/2s.

The no-text efficient beater really only performs in legacy if you can forego playing it because you have a Standstill-type card in your hand (ignore removal Snap-removal) - for most generic beater [Goyf] decks that Standstill-type card is Wrenn and Six.

[sco0ter]

Great analysis on the Null Rod effects issue.

However it's hard for me to follow why a Goyf-like beater is only good if you play Standstill or Wrenn & Six instead in order to ignore removal.
You want to say it's better to first stabilize the board (Standstill or recurring Wastelands) before throwing out the finishers?
Then, it doesn't explain why Goyf is bad in this deck, because you play Standstill... and it doesn't even require Vision Charm to do anything.

[Rood]

Goyf builds were always 3 color because going UG is suspect. The reason he fell out of favor is 3c mana bases are very suspect because of our mana base of 7 colorless lands. Its explosive but the manabase ran like 18-19 nonbasics (similiar to RUG) but only 13 colored sources. So its alot easier to get mana restricted.


I do think Goyf and Scroll could be fun tho. You would have to go something probably like (3 Factory 3 Waste 7 fetch 5 duals 2 islands.) if you run Goyf over Gargoyle and go 3c you also have zero need for vision charms

[Fox]

Ways that Goyf works are:
1- Goyf, opponent loses turn killing it. Next Arcanist, opponent loses turn killing it. Then JTMS or Wrenn, opponent loses the game. (you can change the card names to Strix/SCM/SFM/etc, but this is the idea behind every tap out and jam value pile that has ever existed).
2- Goyf is highest cmc threat in a low mana environment (this stopped working for RUG Delver ~5 years ago).
3- Goyf is in the deck, but the power resides in a different not-creature 2 drop payoff.

When you start stacking up 2-drop sorc-speed threats, you're not just stranding Delver/Wasteland/Daze, but you're also very likely actively reducing Delver's flip-rate. Goyf ends up pricing you into a really questionable zero-tempo quagmire, and when your fix is making 12/12s [with cards that don't really have text for of from Goyf] you're not actually getting yourself out of that situation. You'd be using Goyf to make a non-harmonious bad deck [bad = tier 2ish trading consistency for power], but the real problem is that the deck would be *worse* than existing tier 1-1.5 decks. Playing bad decks is fine, playing worse decks not so much.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm getting familiarized with the comp rules on phasing and manifest to prepare, but I have a question on phasing I can't seem to find the answer to (should it ever come up):

Can I phase out my Winter Orb with Vision Charm during my untap step so I can untap my lands? As I understand it, phasing happens before the untap step but Vision Charm lets me phase an artifact out at instant speed. I'm not sure if these abilities 'stack' like normal and I can phase out Winter Orb before Orb prevents my lands from untapping.

[sco0ter]

I'm getting familiarized with the comp rules on phasing and manifest to prepare, but I have a question on phasing I can't seem to find the answer to (should it ever come up):

Can I phase out my Winter Orb with Vision Charm during my untap step so I can untap my lands? As I understand it, phasing happens before the untap step but Vision Charm lets me phase an artifact out at instant speed. I'm not sure if these abilities 'stack' like normal and I can phase out Winter Orb before Orb prevents my lands from untapping.

I don't think it works, because you are not allowed to cast spells during your untap step.
The earliest is the upkeep step, after all triggered abilities went on stack.

[Fox]

I'm getting familiarized with the comp rules on phasing and manifest to prepare, but I have a question on phasing I can't seem to find the answer to (should it ever come up):

Can I phase out my Winter Orb with Vision Charm during my untap step so I can untap my lands? As I understand it, phasing happens before the untap step but Vision Charm lets me phase an artifact out at instant speed. I'm not sure if these abilities 'stack' like normal and I can phase out Winter Orb before Orb prevents my lands from untapping.

The first part of every untap step is phasing in your things, then you move to the untapping (which means Winter Orb is on again, so only 1 land untaps). Doing the Winter Orb trick while advancing a gameplan largely falls under Metallic Rebuke. There is no priority to cast Vision Charm during the untap step.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks gentlemen, that's what I suspected. I have never used phasing in a comp-REL event so I wanted to be sure of any potential interactions.

[colo]

Quick report: Went 3-1 today with my already-posted list (only change: swapping all copies of Dismember for copies of Reality Shift), beating Uw Merfolk 2-0, losing to UWr Snow Mentor Walker Control (0-2), and then winning against Hexdrinker RUG (2-0) and UR Delver (2-0). I won three games off of a "natural" turn two Phyrexian Dreadnought (with either Vision Charm or Stifle).

I believe to have kept suboptimal hands against the Mentor list in both games and effectively lost to an unhandled Teferi, Time Raveler in game one, and an avalanche of walkers in game 2, after a Wear // Tear took care of both my Counterbalance and a Scroll of Fate after an exhaustive counter war over these resources.

Edit: Thanks, H, for digging up my list!

[sdematt]

Colo, want to repost your list so we're all not scrolling forever?

-Matt

[H]

Colo, want to repost your list so we're all not scrolling forever?

-Matt

I believe it was this:

4 Scroll of Fate
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Preordain
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
8 Island
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Repeal
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Back to Basics

[Mr. Safety]

Colo, want to repost your list so we can scroll of fate forever?

-Matt

Fixed that for you.

[crispymelee]

Quick report: Went 3-1 today with my already-posted list (only change: swapping all copies of Dismember for copies of Reality Shift), beating Uw Merfolk 2-0, losing to UWr Snow Mentor Walker Control (0-2), and then winning against Hexdrinker RUG (2-0) and UR Delver (2-0). I won three games off of a "natural" turn two Phyrexian Dreadnought (with either Vision Charm or Stifle).

I believe to have kept suboptimal hands against the Mentor list in both games and effectively lost to an unhandled Teferi, Time Raveler in game one, and an avalanche of walkers in game 2, after a Wear // Tear took care of both my Counterbalance and a Scroll of Fate after an exhaustive counter war over these resources.

Edit: Thanks, H, for digging up my list!

Congrats on the result. I'll be happy to take even one match on the 13th if I'm perfectly honest. Looks like I'll be taking something very close to the following, where I'm expecting the meta to broadly look like 40/40/20 in terms of Midrange, Combo, Straight Aggro/Control. Gonna go with a UW build along the philosophy that the UW version is essentially a control deck that happens to pack Dreadnoughts as an option.

Set Cards
20
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
3x Prismatic Vista
4x Flooded Strand
1x Tundra
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Karakas
6
3x Dreadnought
3x Snapcaster Mage
22
4x Brainstorm
4x StP (I remembered this time)
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
9
4x Standstill
2x Teferi, Time Raveler
3x Scroll of Fate

Daze feels less great in a UW shell compared to UR, though CS could easily be some other kind of permission. That gives me 3 slots that I'm still undecided on among this pool:

Karn, the Great Creator
Small Teferi #3
Vision Charm
Scroll #4
Dreadnought #4
JtMS
Big Teferi
Azcanta???
"Land"

I'm feeling solid about +1 Karn, but undecided on the last two, leaning towards +1 Charm and +1 JtMS. Even considering a land since I'm trying to get to 3 or 4. SB to follow later.

[Fox]

You're gonna need some Verdicts in there, likely at the cost of 2x Cspell slots. This is a pretty crucial aspect in non-Delver variants. Remaining Cspell slot + one of the Snare spots can become FoN x2. (There's no reason to skip easy wins vs recursive spells like P-Fire and Loam)

I would try and get Teferi up to a 3x (likely cuts into Standstill numbers). Any Karn you'd want to add would come out of Scroll numbers. Dreadnought #4 would come from SCM #3 slot.

[Rood]

I will be updating the primer. If some of you guys wanna update the matchups you feel are good/Poor PM me. I will compile the MU based off everyones findings

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

I picked up a set of Scroll of Fates and now brewing, so many options!

a) A bit curious why we're not playing some amount of Voidmage Apprentice. If the plan is to sneak guys into play with Scroll, Apprentice manifests for 1U just like Stratus Dancer.

b) Looking at Astral Drift. With Scroll, will sneak any permanent into play without casting. Cycling (even Cycling Astral Drift itself) is Standstill friendly and cannot be countered by normal countermagic. Also Sevinne's Reclamation has good targets including Scroll, Drift and Standstill.

c) Perhaps Rule of Law in main or sideboard?

d) Looking at green splash for Veils and Force of Vigors.

e) Fathom Seer's body is poor but with the Scroll plan, it's pay 1U to draw 2 (or Gush).

[Fox]

a) Discussed a few pages back. Main takeaway is that a 2cmc 2/1 flying trades with Delver and they have to spend a card (or Wrenn -1) to deal with it ~ i.e. it is better by itself. Voidmage is not useful without Scroll. If you wanted A then B (Scroll then dude) construction, Willbender is more power/able to create a blowout.
b) Astral Drift has to answer "why isn't this a Teferi?" You can't really stack the box at cmc 3 and be fast enough for legacy; those 3-drops really need to be creating velocity ~ advancing a gameplan.
c) Rule of Law is...well not Deafening Silence
d) I mean you could do green, but the interaction is pretty bad. It's also possible that the best thing you could be doing there is Stifle vs Lotus Field trigger, then drop Nissa of the 5/5s into play and make your own 5/5 hexproof. Veil would be fine, but green count for Vigor likely a problem.
e) Fathom Seer is more like draw 2 and put other 2 cards [lands bounced] back down as 2/2s.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Ha! New cards, nice. So, what about Deafening Silence?

Looking at the options for Astral Drift, is cheating in Archon of Valor's Reach a good answer for "Why not Teferi?"

[Rood]

X-1 today. Lost in the finals to RB Hogaak stitcher. (This MU felt bad). I beat Storm and the new jeskai mentor deck. Hogaak and Dredge continue to be not great. I have a monthly today (Saturday) will update when I finish.

I like Surgical but I wonder if Crypt isnt just better. I like it more vs Dredge and Hogaak.

[Fox]

Looking at the options for Astral Drift, is cheating in Archon of Valor's Reach a good answer for "Why not Teferi?"

The thing is that Astral Drift is unhelpful by itself, in the sense that it doesn't get you closer to winning. That it can do the whole 'build your own' Show and Tell with other moving pieces (A then B then C) doesn't really help its case. This is an effect we could hide in the mana base with Endless Sands or Safe Hollow + Scroll. Alternatively we could do the Mosswort Bridge thing or dump Ugin into play off of Planebound Accomplice (and Stifle the exile at EoT suggestion). The more strategies/contingencies you stack up on Scroll, the more you have to defend it; this kind of deckbuilding is fragile, and it's also being done around a 3 cmc card - this can't be effectively defended by Daze nor Delver ideas.

Going back to the Nissa/Field example, you could cheat in the land with Stifle. Nissa the next turn, bash for 5 hexproof (or defend). Next turn float 3 white, +1 Nissa untap, and add 3 green and hardcast Archon. I don't think Archon really helps anything in that sequence, but you could do it. Astral Drift just doesn't advance gameplans while also providing new ways to 'go off' with cards that were already going to be in the list.

[sco0ter]

b) Astral Drift has to answer "why isn't this a Teferi?" You can't really stack the box at cmc 3 and be fast enough for legacy; those 3-drops really need to be creating velocity ~ advancing a gameplan.


The thing is that Astral Drift is unhelpful by itself, in the sense that it doesn't get you closer to winning. That it can do the whole 'build your own' Show and Tell with other moving pieces (A then B then C) doesn't really help its case. This is an effect we could hide in the mana base with Endless Sands or Safe Hollow + Scroll. Alternatively we could do the Mosswort Bridge thing or dump Ugin into play off of Planebound Accomplice (and Stifle the exile at EoT suggestion).

Astral Drift just doesn't advance gameplans while also providing new ways to 'go off' with cards that were already going to be in the list.

I really appreciate your theoretical thoughts on deckbuilding. But aren't multiple ways to victory and redundancy a good thing?
Concretely speaking, why not drop some Counterspells, Spell Snares, Vision Charms and Teferis (generally focus on protecting Dreadnought) for more pressure / alternative win conditions? (I mean if the Dreadnoughts get Extirpated, you are pretty helpless).
Astral Drift might not be the best example, but is it wrong to think about dropping Countermagic for Vexing Devil, Eater of Days (both work with Scroll), Fling, Shapeshifter shenanigans and follow a more aggressive gameplan? Because theoretically it feels positive, if you can use your Scrolls for more cards than just Dreadnought.

[Fox]

I really appreciate your theoretical thoughts on deckbuilding. But aren't multiple ways to victory and redundancy a good thing?
Concretely speaking, why not drop some Counterspells, Spell Snares, Vision Charms and Teferis (generally focus on protecting Dreadnought) for more pressure / alternative win conditions? (I mean if the Dreadnoughts get Extirpated, you are pretty helpless).
Astral Drift might not be the best example, but is it wrong to think about dropping Countermagic for Vexing Devil, Eater of Days (both work with Scroll), Fling, Shapeshifter shenanigans and follow a more aggressive gameplan? Because theoretically it feels positive, if you can use your Scrolls for more cards than just Dreadnought.

If opponents want to remove the option of topdecking Nought from my deck, I'm quite happy. It doesn't stop Scroll of Fate or Factory, and now they made Dreadnought wish targets for Karn. The Noughts really aren't that important when it comes to how my deck wins games, they're just there. The same is true of UR Dreadstill, they're a counterburn deck and won't care if you thin their deck towards 1-card-combo damage sources by removing Nought. If your Dreadnought deck cares about Surgical effects on Nought, this points to deckbuilding error ~ high variance construction.

I could certainly reward my opponents for playing an unimaginative pile of kill spells and Snapcasters and value cards by providing targets; but I'd rather they die with 7 of them in hand while I'm nuking their lands with Karn/Coating/Crucible and they can't cast a single interaction versus an EoT Scroll'd threat or Factory past Teferi. There's just something poetic beating people down with Factory and Dreadnought when there's nothing they can do about it. You really hope they get locked out by a Chalice deck in the next round, such that the idea of playing to win may blossom in their soul.

Playing Merfolk (which on some level is how mono-U Nought operates, i.e. a hammer that can only hit nails) won't supplement other combo & prison decks in a local meta as we battle every week on our most holy crusade to push all boring do-nothing/value-duder decks to the bottom tables. Only then do we get to play what we will define as "real" legacy on the dimes of the apostates. :tongue:

Let the Phrexian Scriptures fill you, join the Great Work, and be initiated into the church of combo. :b::b::b::b: :cool:
Coming back to reality for a moment, using Scroll to blink-cheat threats into play is too slow and janky. You definitely get style points, but it's sadly just worse than Show and Tell and a somewhere around 2 turns [estimate] too slow to compete in legacy. Sadly we have to take cool ideas in legacy and admit when "dies to Goyf" applies.
----

Went 2-1 today, just playing round robin with the other three that showed up. Meta was Wrenn and Strix, 4x Wrenn Delver, Moon Stompy, and myself on Manifest Destiny.

-R1 vs Wrenn and Strix (1-2): win game 1 with ease b/c they try to kill Teferi #2 with flashback Decay [Stifle, can't respond] into Karn [can't respond] wish Crypt. Games 2 and 3 are fun and close, but they get there on mediocre beats as they were hit by RiP. Pretty dangerous matchup for them as they are potentially fetching basics and relying on Astrolabe vs a deck with Karn. It's nice that Strix is mostly gone from legacy while we wait for a playable desertcycling or Desert Fetchland to be printed; until then Mastery of the Unseen is the first card you reach for vs this style of deck. Both game 2 or 3 are likely winnable with a topdeck Verdict.
-R2 vs Moon Stompy (2-0): with Teferi, Karn, and Scroll in deck they have very few cards that matter so precise countermagic is lethal. Game 2 opponent should have won after I missed maybe 5-ish land drops in a row, but they missed two of their Scan Clan triggers. Both games were mull to 6 for me, and game 2 hand was Karakas, Plow, Astrolabe, Teferi, FoW, FoN [Cursed Scroll to bottom of deck]; high risk keep but I was up a game on the draw [I would still keep this hand over mull to 5 against prison in future].
-R3 vs 4c Wrenn Delver (2-1): lose the die roll and decide not to FoW a turn 1 Delver as I don't want to lose to Daze, Delver gets there (this might have been a mull to 6 hand for me, one of these 3 games was). Game 2 is a delightful cripple fight where we're both on 1 Fetch and can't topdeck lands forever (opponent won't Fetch into my Stifle, very well played by them), after 5 discards to hand size [2 by them, 2 by me] I find the combo...a basic Plains! I pass and they discard their to handsize for the third time [this is the 5th discard from previous sentence]. I choose to Brainstorm, giving them their land and things happen but they die to hardcast Dreadnought with Trop/Volc in play and a Decay in hand. Game 3 they have less severe mana issues, but a Wasteland on their Badlands [only tapped Volc left] will result with loss to Scroll'd 2/2 and a followup Standstill.

These non-Titanic [i.e. NBC-RUG] decks with the RUG+B Wrenn core have pretty shaky mana bases in the face of their color reqs & sleeving up Wastelands; particularly if they're leaning on Astro against Karn/mana denial + attacking their yard. All 6 games felt fairly coin-flippy but quite manageable; no need to change the list as the matchup odds seemed reasonable*. JVP did nothing by himself, but he did devour a 4c Wrenn and Strix counterspell as Karakas was in play. Against 4c Wrenn Delver he did duress a Bolt, which was plenty acceptable when he wasn't a pitch card.

*I doubt there is such thing as a better than 50:50 matchup vs tap-out-and-jam value piles, certainly not without making a deck that folds hard to sibeboard cards.

[Mr. Safety]

Looking at recent activity in t8's I think Stifle is going to be fairly good. I don't think there is any matchup where Stifle is an actually dead card, especially considering it can always feed Dreadnought. Storm seems to be getting some traction, which makes Stifle even better. I'm feeling really good about mono-blue right now, especially as I have an unhealthy amount of Moon Stompy and Lands in my metagame.

[Michael Keller]

Looking at recent activity in t8's I think Stifle is going to be fairly good. I don't think there is any matchup where Stifle is an actually dead card, especially considering it can always feed Dreadnought. Storm seems to be getting some traction, which makes Stifle even better. I'm feeling really good about mono-blue right now, especially as I have an unhealthy amount of Moon Stompy and Lands in my metagame.

I'm actually not a fan of Mono Blue at the moment. The format is currently very aggressive, and having no answers to resolved threats (or minimal answers out of necessity because it'd be Mono Blue) just doesn't seem good. I think a splash for either red, green or black is a good idea. It doesn't overly destabilize the mana base and it gives you different avenues to explore with a wider swath of potent sideboard options.

I'm not saying Mono Blue can't be good, I'm sure it's fine. But in playing it you're kind of pigeon-holing yourself into a limited space of sideboard cards that could be better in a wider meta situation.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm actually not a fan of Mono Blue at the moment. The format is currently very aggressive, and having no answers to resolved threats (or minimal answers out of necessity because it'd be Mono Blue) just doesn't seem good. I think a splash for either red, green or black is a good idea. It doesn't overly destabilize the mana base and it gives you different avenues to explore with a wider swath of potent sideboard options.

I'm not saying Mono Blue can't be good, I'm sure it's fine. But in playing it you're kind of pigeon-holing yourself into a limited space of sideboard cards that could be better in a wider meta situation.

I don't disagree; I also don't have blue duals, lol. I'm all-in on blue.

[crispymelee]

I don't disagree; I also don't have blue duals, lol. I'm all-in on blue.

If budget is the biggest barrier to splashing a color, a playset of Prismatic Vista + whichever U/x fetch will fit your build is attainable for the cost of a dual, more or less. (Why ARE the enemy fetches so much more than the classic ally fetches anyways?).

A trend I've noticed, at least for slower/control-oriented decks, is the cutting of duals for Vistas for a more resilient base. While even a light splash will never be as "safe" as a mono-X deck, I think the options it will give you coming out of the sideboard may well be worth it.

EDIT: If you're just committed to mono-U though, more power to you!

[Mr. Safety]

If budget is the biggest barrier to splashing a color, a playset of Prismatic Vista + whichever U/x fetch will fit your build is attainable for the cost of a dual, more or less. (Why ARE the enemy fetches so much more than the classic ally fetches anyways?).

A trend I've noticed, at least for slower/control-oriented decks, is the cutting of duals for Vistas for a more resilient base. While even a light splash will never be as "safe" as a mono-X deck, I think the options it will give you coming out of the sideboard may well be worth it.

EDIT: If you're just committed to mono-U though, more power to you!



I have Scalding Tarns, Flooded Strands, and Misty Rainforests. Fetches aren't the issue, it's that I don't know if its worth making a sub-par mana-base to accommodate a splash color. With Volcanics? Sure, the splash is worth it. Without them, I don't know if it's better to just play Dismember (which I am doing currently.) Dismember does everything Bolt does other than deal 3 to the face, and even deals with bigger threats. The drawback of 4 life is significant if games go long, but I'm not intending them to go long. I play a more tempo-oriented version that is looking for a Dreadnought/Gargoyle to finish games quickly. Scroll spams the battlefield with 2/2's or enables Dreadnoughts. Also of note is that I am not playing Standstills currently, but rather Ponder based on my mediocre results with Standstill at the LGS.

[Mr. Safety]

My list runs green for Sylvan Safekeeper, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library and a small Crop Rotation package in the sideboard.

Is Dismember your removal of choice?

[Rood]

Standstill is somewhat mediocre in mono blue cause of the lack of hard removal. I could see you wanting to cut it for Ponders

[Mr. Safety]

Standstill is somewhat mediocre in mono blue cause of the lack of hard removal. I could see you wanting to cut it for Ponders

Considering your exhaustive amount of experience with this deck, do you feel playing fetches + basics is enough or are the dual lands a true lynchpin to success?

[Rood]

Considering your exhaustive amount of experience with this deck, do you feel playing fetches + basics is enough or are the dual lands a true lynchpin to success?

Swords/Fatal Push/Lightning bolt imo are what make Standstill good. Being able to clear a huge threat for 1 mana then deploy Standstill is very good. All mono blue has really is Dismember which you cant really run as a 4-of. So its tough to justify running SS without true hard dedicated removal

[Michael Keller]

Off topic: the cards that are manifested with Scroll go to the graveyard when they die, correct?

[Rood]

Correct. May I see your list?

[crispymelee]

I have Scalding Tarns, Flooded Strands, and Misty Rainforests. Fetches aren't the issue, it's that I don't know if its worth making a sub-par mana-base to accommodate a splash color. With Volcanics? Sure, the splash is worth it. Without them, I don't know if it's better to just play Dismember (which I am doing currently.) Dismember does everything Bolt does other than deal 3 to the face, and even deals with bigger threats. The drawback of 4 life is significant if games go long, but I'm not intending them to go long. I play a more tempo-oriented version that is looking for a Dreadnought/Gargoyle to finish games quickly. Scroll spams the battlefield with 2/2's or enables Dreadnoughts. Also of note is that I am not playing Standstills currently, but rather Ponder based on my mediocre results with Standstill at the LGS.

Totally understand wanting to be safe with a mana base, esp with the amount of non-basic hate that seems to be running around. That being said, I think that stated goal of wanting to end games quickly more often than not plays better with what Fox called a "unified strategy", and Bolt fits the "win faster" plan better than Dismember. Someone even posted a few pages ago that the best-case-scenario math plays nicely with what you want to do; Nought + Gargoyle + Bolt = 20.

The biggest thing you lose out on without the Volcanic Island is Daze protection which admittedly fits nicely with your tempo-oriented list. But chances are you're going to be holding back your Bolts anyways and wouldn't be fetching that dual as an early drop, unless something comes up that absolutely needs to be answered and you need to force through an answer. Between your Brainstorms and Ponders, I don't think it should be too difficult to hit the single R by the time you'll need to finish off an opponent who's already taken a Nought and some 2/2's to the face.

(I haven't played much of this deck, but Landstill had a similar concept where we would hide a R source until we wanted to drop a Firespout or Engineered Explosives to punish over extending.)

[Mr. Safety]

Totally understand wanting to be safe with a mana base, esp with the amount of non-basic hate that seems to be running around. That being said, I think that stated goal of wanting to end games quickly more often than not plays better with what Fox called a "unified strategy", and Bolt fits the "win faster" plan better than Dismember. Someone even posted a few pages ago that the best-case-scenario math plays nicely with what you want to do; Nought + Gargoyle + Bolt = 20.

The biggest thing you lose out on without the Volcanic Island is Daze protection which admittedly fits nicely with your tempo-oriented list. But chances are you're going to be holding back your Bolts anyways and wouldn't be fetching that dual as an early drop, unless something comes up that absolutely needs to be answered and you need to force through an answer. Between your Brainstorms and Ponders, I don't think it should be too difficult to hit the single R by the time you'll need to finish off an opponent who's already taken a Nought and some 2/2's to the face.

(I haven't played much of this deck, but Landstill had a similar concept where we would hide a R source until we wanted to drop a Firespout or Engineered Explosives to punish over extending.)


Thanks for the feedback! I have played into the 'burn them out' strategy before in Urx decks (I do it often in Modern), I just don't feel that 4 Bolts is enough. I would want at least 6-8 burn spells or other sources of direct damage (like Lavaman) to reliably turn them into a finisher. Once I go past 4 Bolts I don't think a set of Scalding Tarn + Mountain would reliably get me there. I think it would be a 'bad' version of UR delver. I also am guaranteed, almost 100% confidence, that I will face at least 1 Moon Stompy list at the 1K. It's a very popular deck and hits top8 often. This actually plays into the red splash fine but doesn't address Chalice. Add a few Eldrazi decks to the Moon lists, a half dozen D&T, and 2+ on Lands, S&T, Storm, Depths, Stoneblade, RUG Delver, and you have my local metagame. Most of the mix relies on some sort of land-based interaction. Budget is the major concern, but if an all-Island mana-base doesn't work in the current metagame I'll just play a different deck (I also have Turbo Depths, which is doing well but has it's own challenges.)

[KobeBryan]

I hope this deck takes off...i got 2 playsets of the dreadnoughts, knowing they are on the list.

[Fox]

I hope this deck takes off...i got 2 playsets of the dreadnoughts, knowing they are on the list.

Hopefully you got them at $10-15 apiece b/c that‘s honestly what they should cost. This $60 pricetag we‘re starting to see is a bit over the top.

[Tobitzki]

I have Scalding Tarns, Flooded Strands, and Misty Rainforests. Fetches aren't the issue, it's that I don't know if its worth making a sub-par mana-base to accommodate a splash color. With Volcanics? Sure, the splash is worth it. Without them, I don't know if it's better to just play Dismember (which I am doing currently.) Dismember does everything Bolt does other than deal 3 to the face, and even deals with bigger threats. The drawback of 4 life is significant if games go long, but I'm not intending them to go long.

@Mr. Safety: You seem to be a pretty dedicated Legacy player, in it for the long haul, etc. (I'm assuming this based on you're activity on this forum here.) So honestly, if I were you I'd just find a way to get that 1st Volc somehow. It's really all you need: Dual #2 in most 2-color fetch mana bases can be replaced with a Shock, #3 can often just be a basic (see some UR Delver builds). I don't have access to unlimited Duals, but I really don't like playing subpar decks either, so weighing out worthwhile investments vs. not getting sucked into spending bizarre sums on fricken wizard-game cards is to strike a tricky balance. But tbh, best thing I ever did is buylist off a bunch of semi-valuable RL/apparently Commander-playable cards I had lying around (incl. a bunch of commons and uncommons), then threw in a few remaining dollars for my first Volc. As soon as you're there, you have so many new options for building.

As for the decks at hand: One might venture that mono-U with 4life-per-removal (dismember) isn't even really much easier on your life total than splash red for Bolts (+ Blasts & Abrades) with 2 Shocks straight up, no basics. (you're right in that including a basic for a very light splash is a real downside, even when we're using more colorless mana than most xerox decks.)

Just my 2 cents. If the BLing or other ways to obtain that dual are not an option atm, that's cool. But perhaps something to consider for the future..

And good luck at that upcoming tourney!!

[KobeBryan]

Hopefully you got them at $10-15 apiece b/c that‘s honestly what they should cost. This $60 pricetag we‘re starting to see is a bit over the top.


25 a piece

[Rood]

A budget manabase of

4x Tarn
2x Vista
2x Delta
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Volcanic
4x Factory
3x Waste

Is what I would start with if I were you Safety. That manabase can work if you are pressed on volcanics as you can essentially function with just 1.

[Mr. Safety]

@Mr. Safety: You seem to be a pretty dedicated Legacy player, in it for the long haul, etc. (I'm assuming this based on you're activity on this forum here.) So honestly, if I were you I'd just find a way to get that 1st Volc somehow. It's really all you need: Dual #2 in most 2-color fetch mana bases can be replaced with a Shock, #3 can often just be a basic (see some UR Delver builds). I don't have access to unlimited Duals, but I really don't like playing subpar decks either, so weighing out worthwhile investments vs. not getting sucked into spending bizarre sums on fricken wizard-game cards is to strike a tricky balance. But tbh, best thing I ever did is buylist off a bunch of semi-valuable RL/apparently Commander-playable cards I had lying around (incl. a bunch of commons and uncommons), then threw in a few remaining dollars for my first Volc. As soon as you're there, you have so many new options for building.

As for the decks at hand: One might venture that mono-U with 4life-per-removal (dismember) isn't even really much easier on your life total than splash red for Bolts (+ Blasts & Abrades) with 2 Shocks straight up, no basics. (you're right in that including a basic for a very light splash is a real downside, even when we're using more colorless mana than most xerox decks.)

Just my 2 cents. If the BLing or other ways to obtain that dual are not an option atm, that's cool. But perhaps something to consider for the future..

And good luck at that upcoming tourney!!

Thanks! Yes, getting a Volcanic is a high priority, lol.

[Fallen_Empire]

Fox,

Come to the legacy 3k at Mox Bellevue this weekend. Spike dreadnought to $100.00 :tongue:

[Fox]

@Fallen_Empire
Too busy to drive so many hours this weekend. If it were two weekends from now I might have been able to go; after that the weather will start to get too questionable. :frown:
You‘ll have to bring the UW beats for both of us.
—

For those on Vision Charm, don‘t forget that while land change option can turn off a line of Fetching a hostile Sanctuary, you‘re likely better off going with the mill mode after its trigger. If it‘s a removal spell they necro, probably let them draw it and then blank it with a phase out of target. There is a minor finesse possible with Scroll (whether or not oppo is on Sanctuary) with land change option to Stripmine away colors of their removal for the duration of their turn. This may allow unopposed 2/2 deployment with a guaranteed untap to defend it.

Sanctuary is one of those cards people are going to try and force in Snapcaster decks, despite being unable to support bounce. Consider Silent Gravestone in your SBs, and count Islands if you‘ve got a Wasteland for a blue dual.

[KobeBryan]

Fox,

Come to the legacy 3k at Mox Bellevue this weekend. Spike dreadnought to $100.00 :tongue:


Yes please

[Michael Keller]

Correct. May I see your list?

I honestly don't even have one close to finalized. I am, for sure, playing Dreadnoughts at Eternal Weekend. It feels good slinging them again; did it for years in 1.5 when Mask was a big thing.

[Rood]

You on Scrolls? What kinda shell you on

[Fox]

To paraphrase the Rick and Morty cartoon: SHOW ROOD WHAT YOU GOOOOOOOOOOOOT. :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

You on Scrolls? What kinda shell you on

Working multiple lists. One I'm interested in is Sultai Dreadstill with Scrolls.

[Mr. Safety]

Lazav and Abrupt Decay both seem like pretty good inclusions in Sultai, and you already mentioned Crop Rotation and Library. I totally understand if you don't want to spoil the list, but if you want to post it after the event, I would love to see it.

[Michael Keller]

I seriously have no idea what's in it. I'm just looking at various color combinations and how this thing plays out. There's a lot of ways you can go with it, but it's tough.

That being said, I think one of the most underrated cards in the format right now is, in fact, Abrupt Decay. It's such a clean answer to so many things.

[Mr. Safety]

That being said, I think one of the most underrated cards in the format right now is, in fact, Abrupt Decay. It's such a clean answer to so many things.

I've squeezed 2 in my Turbo Depths maindeck, would love to be able to get 3 in there but space is tight. I 100% agree with you on this, and it's another reason I like Vision Charm in the mono-blue list because it 'counters' Abrupt Decay alongside feeding Gargoyle and phasing Dreadnoughts.

[PirateKing]

Fox is the list attributed to you on page 1 still accurate?
What is Mastery of the Unseen for? Unless I'm missing an interaction it doesn't seem like the lifegain will trigger often or for a whole lot, and the Manifest seems expensive as well.
I'm generally okay at figuring out most corner cases, but this one I'm lost.

[Rood]

I wouldnt use Lazav. In testing it was too hard to reliably cast. Scroll, Torpor Orb and mimic are better options

[KobeBryan]

Fox is the list attributed to you on page 1 still accurate?
What is Mastery of the Unseen for? Unless I'm missing an interaction it doesn't seem like the lifegain will trigger often or for a whole lot, and the Manifest seems expensive as well.
I'm generally okay at figuring out most corner cases, but this one I'm lost.

forget it...that card can't do anythinb better than scroll of fate

[Fox]

It was the card that was first responsible for unlocking UW as a playable colorset (i.e. turning top of deck into zone of value, see also E Tutor). Scroll is mostly better, except when you need CA in a grindy matchup. The card coming in face-down off Mastery is not from your hand, and that's the key difference.

Against slower decks, I value a different card name and permanent type. The value upside makes it a stronger E-Tutor target than Scroll, and I still get to leave a Scroll in the board for Karn. The card also puts a swift stop fateseal from JTMS.

Having 2x Scroll on board is redundant, having Scroll + Mastery is synergistic.

[Tobitzki]

I wouldnt use Lazav. In testing it was too hard to reliably cast. Scroll, Torpor Orb and mimic are better options

@Rood: Speaking for classic builds with Standstills + Factories here (duh! this is the Dreadstill thread after all.)

But so if I may (since Standstill-less lists have been discussed here recently and there is no other Dreadnought thread): In the UB tempo version with Ponders Lazav actually works fine--not great--as a 1 or 2 of and secondary/tertiary enabler. I have ditched him in my current build, since he exacerbates our weakness to Tundra/Plow and creates a graveyard dependency that I'd rather not lean into too hard; but Lazav is also the only other reasonable way other than the classic "hard cast" (Stifle/V Charm self-2for1) to be attacking with a 12/12 on T3. T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Lazav with Daze backup is nothing to sneeze at and happens more often than one might expect. And of all possible color configurations, BUG is probably the one where Lazav makes the most sense, on the back of his synergy with Goyf alone. (Might want to cut Delvers there, tho.)

@Michael Keller: I feel you: the Dreadnought options are multifarious indeed (ho ho) and far from solved. I personally love the untouchable mana bases of the 2-color builds. Then it essentially comes down to your preference between the power of Standstill vs. the consistency of Ponder as well as Bolts vs. Swords vs. Thoughtseize/Fatal Push.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty excited atm about perfect new utility toys for UB in Brazen Bouncer and Drown in the Loch.

[crispymelee]

Yes please

I get the distinct feeling it'd be a pleasure to watch Fox or Rood mop up a room with an "outside" deck.

On a more serious topic: sideboarding! I'm more or less settled on my initial 60 here, so now the question becomes what to do with the other 15. (60 here (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/?cb=1570659948). The 3x CS could be any mix of Spell Snare, Pierce, CS, or some other permission. I could be persuaded to go down to 8 counters (+1 Scroll? +1 land?), but the Landstill player in me is already nervous about having "only" 9, and I'm playing more along the lines of control than tempo.)

I'm expecting a room with about a 40/40/20 split of Midrange, Combo, Aggro/Control, and want to take advantage of 2x Karn in the main.

Have this so far based on looking around other lists:
1x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liquimetal Coating (thx Fox!)
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x RiP
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Containment Priest
1x Pithing Needle
2x Flusterstorm

Now for the fun questions that show my rust and age:
- What is CPriest used for? Anti-Reanimator tech (but not Bridge from Below)? What is Priest's interaction with Manifested cards from Scroll vs creatures Vial'd in?
- any obvious includes or gaps that I'm missing? I wanted to focus on Storm.dek and gy.dek. Would love to fit in a Humility as well.

Thanks for getting me back into the game, guys.

[Fox]

C. Priest is for Ichorid, Narco, Reanimator, and Show and Tell. While in play, it will push any attempted manifest directly to exile. Other cards hit will be Vial, GSZ/NO, Flickerwisp returns, and quite hilariously Dryad Arbor (this should be most of the relevant interactions). Not much of a downside for you with Teferi to return it at any time.

I think you probably have enough anti-yard slots.

Edit, answer to below: yes Nodes is mostly there for TNN/Goose/Hexdrinker. It's also fine vs Reanimator and Mother of Runes/hatebear types.

[crispymelee]

C. Priest is for Ichorid, Narco, Reanimator, and Show and Tell. While in play, it will push any attempted manifest directly to exile. Other cards hit will be Vial, GSZ/NO, Flickerwisp returns, and quite hilariously Dryad Arbor (this should be most of the relevant interactions). Not much of a downside for you with Teferi to return it at any time.

I think you probably have enough anti-yard slots.

Something I hadn't considered. Thanks for the rundown on CPriest!

I noticed you ran PNodes in your list. Is that to just deal with swarms/TNN?

[frustanani]

I get the distinct feeling it'd be a pleasure to watch Fox or Rood mop up a room with an "outside" deck.

On a more serious topic: sideboarding! I'm more or less settled on my initial 60 here, so now the question becomes what to do with the other 15. (60 here (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/?cb=1570659948). The 3x CS could be any mix of Spell Snare, Pierce, CS, or some other permission. I could be persuaded to go down to 8 counters (+1 Scroll? +1 land?), but the Landstill player in me is already nervous about having "only" 9, and I'm playing more along the lines of control than tempo.)

I'm expecting a room with about a 40/40/20 split of Midrange, Combo, Aggro/Control, and want to take advantage of 2x Karn in the main.

Have this so far based on looking around other lists:
1x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liquimetal Coating (thx Fox!)
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x RiP
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Containment Priest
1x Pithing Needle
2x Flusterstorm

Now for the fun questions that show my rust and age:
- What is CPriest used for? Anti-Reanimator tech (but not Bridge from Below)? What is Priest's interaction with Manifested cards from Scroll vs creatures Vial'd in?
- any obvious includes or gaps that I'm missing? I wanted to focus on Storm.dek and gy.dek. Would love to fit in a Humility as well.

Thanks for getting me back into the game, guys.


Crispymelee I see some weekness in your list, starting from the choice of the counterspell package.
- Counterspell is ok, but 11 blue mana sources risk to make it not a turn 2 solid spell
- Force of Negation can't protect your turn 2 Standstill and can't protect you bombs, sorcery bombs. Misdirection does it better and also hits Abrupt Decay targetting one of your super slow bombs.

And to my view there are two other weeknesses
- The first is that you have 15 spells you don't play without 3 lands (and you have 20), which are way too much (3 teferi 3 dreadnought 2 scroll 2 karn 2 verdict 3 snapcaster) and you opponents' play Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben etc to slow you down. In the other cards you have 3 counterspell wich is not well supported by your manabase and 4 standstill which is not playable turn 2 against everyone. I suggest you to reduce the number of "bombs" and (maybe cut the super slow Karn which is like riding the bike with deflated tires in this deck).
- The second is that your list is extremely week to
a) Dark Depth which is a real deck and can win under your Standstill (and Thespian's Stage is not easy to hit with Wasteland because they can copy a basic land making it invunerable to it. They allways do it as soon as they can. Ghost Quarter to my view should be in 1 or 2 copies because it hits Thespian's Stage anyway.)
b) Turn 2 Wrenn and Six make Standstill useless (Wasteland recursion) and you have few ways to kill it.
c) Burn spells. You are slow and you don't have lifegain. I suggest you a couple of Baneslayer Angel in the 75 which is even not vulnerable to Spell Pierce, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay. Against Chalice of the Void Decks, RUG Delver, Burn, Goblin, BUG he is so good (and he is protected from Griselbrand which is a Demon). As a landstill player you should remember Exalted Angel against Burn, Canadian Threshold and Goblins.

You probabely played Forbid back in the days. Try fetchable 1 Mystic Sanctuary + 1 Deprive, could be fun lategame.

A suggestion for a landstill player: Mutavault + Retrofitter Foundry (Mutavault is a Thopter) + Crucible of Worlds.

[Fox]

@frustanani
The mana needs some work, mostly it's the Verdict + only 1x basic Plains. Not sure if the 1x Plains thing is fixable in this build without moving Karakas to the board. Misdirection is interesting, but FoN is a much safer choice (also, we play Teferi); important to remember that Snare can't exactly be hit by Misdirection. There's a lot of tap-out-and-jam going on in legacy atm, and a lot of the things they're tapping out for die to white cards. There's also more options when you can defer a Standstill to a later turn with Wasteland/Stifle [to remove all remaining mana from a partial tap-out]. Every card that overshoots Standstill in this list comes back to making that Standstill usable. Scroll will re-purpose it, Teferi will drain their countermagic, Karn can go after lands, and Verdict can reset the board for Standstill. Just like any deck with Standstill, its inclusion begets power & asymmetry at the cost of variance (sometimes uncastable); Dreadnought just happens to play more cards that support it better, in less conventional ways.

Stage has to expose itself to Wasteland to do the thing with Dark Depths. Wrenn doesn't do that much in a timely manner, but yes casting a Standstill into it would usually not be a great idea. On lifegain: 1 mana 12/12 + StP (you can also just outrace Burn with Nought). Karn is doing too much this list wants, so not getting cut.

You made some reasonable points, but your advice to fix things was a little off. Baneslayer is not a playable magic card; it costs 5 mana and two are white. The 5 mana, dies to removal dude isn't the most solvent idea in the format (you just play a PW), but the leading candidates in white are probably Archangel Avacyn (flip-flash Serra) and Dragonlord Ojutai. Mystic Sanctuary (with or without Deprive) is a deck registration error, resulting in loss to manabase. Mutavault/Retrofitter/Crucible is a set of cards that aren't great individually, and the grand idea can mostly be found on one PW (Oko most recently).

With the UW builds you have to step back and look at the sum of effects and ask yourself what the deck is trying to do. This deck isn't about locking itself into one plan of winning, which would have to be proactive. For that to work, you'd need more threats, more Scroll, and probably also need to be on UR for Bolt. You do something like taking out Karn, and you're losing most of your lines of play/reasons for choosing certain lines; the leftover play patterns would be simpler, but not competitive.

[frustanani]

@frustanani
The mana needs some work, mostly it's the Verdict + only 1x basic Plains. Not sure if the 1x Plains thing is fixable in this build without moving Karakas to the board. Misdirection is interesting, but FoN is a much safer choice (also, we play Teferi); important to remember that Snare can't exactly be hit by Misdirection. There's a lot of tap-out-and-jam going on in legacy atm, and a lot of the things they're tapping out for die to white cards. There's also more options when you can defer a Standstill to a later turn with Wasteland/Stifle [to remove all remaining mana from a partial tap-out]. Every card that overshoots Standstill in this list comes back to making that Standstill usable. Scroll will re-purpose it, Teferi will drain their countermagic, Karn can go after lands, and Verdict can reset the board for Standstill. Just like any deck with Standstill, its inclusion begets power & asymmetry at the cost of variance (sometimes uncastable); Dreadnought just happens to play more cards that support it better, in less conventional ways.

Stage has to expose itself to Wasteland to do the thing with Dark Depths. Wrenn doesn't do that much in a timely manner, but yes casting a Standstill into it would usually not be a great idea. On lifegain: 1 mana 12/12 + StP (you can also just outrace Burn with Nought). Karn is doing too much this list wants, so not getting cut.

You made some reasonable points, but your advice to fix things was a little off. Baneslayer is not a playable magic card; it costs 5 mana and two are white. The 5 mana, dies to removal dude isn't the most solvent idea in the format (you just play a PW), but the leading candidates in white are probably Archangel Avacyn (flip-flash Serra) and Dragonlord Ojutai. Mystic Sanctuary (with or without Deprive) is a deck registration error, resulting in loss to manabase. Mutavault/Retrofitter/Crucible is a set of cards that aren't great individually, and the grand idea can mostly be found on one PW (Oko most recently).

With the UW builds you have to step back and look at the sum of effects and ask yourself what the deck is trying to do. This deck isn't about locking itself into one plan of winning, which would have to be proactive. For that to work, you'd need more threats, more Scroll, and probably also need to be on UR for Bolt. You do something like taking out Karn, and you're losing most of your lines of play/reasons for choosing certain lines; the leftover play patterns would be simpler, but not competitive.

If you read more carefully, I wrote that Baneslayer could be a solution for lifegain, Dragonlord Ojutai or Archangel Avacyn no, U or W planeswalker maybe but I don't remember any. Also Timely Reinforcements can do that job or Kitchen Finks or the UUW counterspell ... no matter what. I was pointing out that against some aggressive decks, a so slow list should have something to take lifes back. (By the Way .. Baneslayer in the 75 that is to say in the side, is faster than the clunky Karn and sometimes even cheeper ... spell pierce). Playing Swords to Plowshares on your own Phyrexian Dreadnought is like cutting your balls to make angry your girlfriend ... not a smart strategy.

I was not questioning on the strategy and the build on the idea, but on the fact that half of the deck is not playable before having 3 lands and (not in goldfish mode) even after. That list needs to be more agile, athletic.


Crucible is a set of cards that aren't great individually Seriously ? Tier decks are RUG Delver which has no basic land and Dark Depth based decks. Control decks are the one who should adapt themself to the meta.

[crispymelee]

Crispymelee I see some weekness in your list, starting from the choice of the counterspell package.
- Counterspell is ok, but 11 blue mana sources risk to make it not a turn 2 solid spell
- Force of Negation can't protect your turn 2 Standstill and can't protect you bombs, sorcery bombs. Misdirection does it better and also hits Abrupt Decay targetting one of your super slow bombs.

And to my view there are two other weeknesses
- The first is that you have 15 spells you don't play without 3 lands (and you have 20), which are way too much (3 teferi 3 dreadnought 2 scroll 2 karn 2 verdict 3 snapcaster) and you opponents' play Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben etc to slow you down. In the other cards you have 3 counterspell wich is not well supported by your manabase and 4 standstill which is not playable turn 2 against everyone. I suggest you to reduce the number of "bombs" and (maybe cut the super slow Karn which is like riding the bike with deflated tires in this deck).
- The second is that your list is extremely week to
a) Dark Depth which is a real deck and can win under your Standstill (and Thespian's Stage is not easy to hit with Wasteland because they can copy a basic land making it invunerable to it. They allways do it as soon as they can. Ghost Quarter to my view should be in 1 or 2 copies because it hits Thespian's Stage anyway.)
b) Turn 2 Wrenn and Six make Standstill useless (Wasteland recursion) and you have few ways to kill it.
c) Burn spells. You are slow and you don't have lifegain. I suggest you a couple of Baneslayer Angel in the 75 which is even not vulnerable to Spell Pierce, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay. Against Chalice of the Void Decks, RUG Delver, Burn, Goblin, BUG he is so good (and he is protected from Griselbrand which is a Demon). As a landstill player you should remember Exalted Angel against Burn, Canadian Threshold and Goblins.

You probabely played Forbid back in the days. Try fetchable 1 Mystic Sanctuary + 1 Deprive, could be fun lategame.

A suggestion for a landstill player: Mutavault + Retrofitter Foundry (Mutavault is a Thopter) + Crucible of Worlds.

Thank you for the feedback! Could use a lot of it after such a long hiatus. I'll go through your points 1 by 1.

- @ CS: Yea, I'm not happy with these 3 slots. I made note that those 3 slots will be some mix of of Pierce, Snare, Mana Leak, etc., for the very reason you said - UU will be tricky to hit. It's why I'm considering cutting one of these slots for "land", probably an Island or a Tundra. Interestingly, Fox's UW list has fewer counters than Rood's UR list, even though they're playing broadly along the lines of control and tempo respectively.

- @ FoN: I haven't run this card personally. But my understanding is that it isn't meant to protect your own spells; it's a Cancel that happens to be able to be played for free on your opponent's turn. Verdicts can't be countered (just exiled), and I'm thinking more along the lines of using FoW + Pierce/Snare/etc. to protect my later bombs. With Teferi on the board, that concern is more or less muted. Misdirection is an interesting card that I would run out of the side at most, but looking at my LGS's meta over the past 6 months, there just isn't a lot of Hymn stuff going on to make me really want to consider it, which leads to...

- @ Matchups: I last played competitively 2009-2010, and Landstill suffered from rolling over to Burn and trying to keep up with the infestation of Big Zoo, Fish and Goblins at the time. Burn has showed up in 3 lists over the past 6 months at the LGS. I'd have a harder time than UR versions racing Burn, but I'm sure it's still FAR better than anything LS could do (Dread + StP is effectively "discard 4 Bolts"). More concerning to me is Depths which I have no experience against and has ranged from 10-30% of the meta over the same period. When is the correct window to hit them with the Waste, if Thespian's is a "Basic Land" copy when it attempts to copy Depths?

- @ Standstill: Yea, jamming Standstill recklessly is going to be far from ideal in a lot of matchups; the number of times I could confidently drop one on t2, g1, is actually pretty small. But being able to keep the board (relatively) clear and then playing it later is something I'm comfortable doing, esp. when I'm fairly sure I can abuse the "symmetric" board state better than they can. Even late, I'm not going to be unhappy to see it as it still as interactions with a lot of relevant cards (FoW, FoN, Scroll).

- @ mana: I could have sworn I put a second Plains in my 60, which would make 11 sources for both U and W (previously was only one Plains, which necessitated Plains + Karakas for Verdict. Scary.). I do have 4 Tundra available, but wanted to minimize the impact of the number of Stompy/Moon/non-basic-hate.dek that I'm predicting will show up on Sunday. One of the above CS slots may well be Tundra or Vista#4, but 4 Will, 2 Negation, 2 (pierce/snare/whatever) feels light for the lines I'm looking to play.

- that combo looks fun, but given the issues you've raised with my lists speed, it hardly looks like I'd be able to pull it off. I def remember testing a Thopter/Sword package into LS lists way back when, and that feels like it'd be faster/more consistent :tongue:


EDIT: re CoW: I think that what Fox was saying in regards to Crucible is that on it's own, Crucible doesn't proactively do a lot. It hits the board, then enables another zone to be a resource. Karn on the other hand turns off multiple relevant artifacts the turn he hits play, can kill problem artifacts (Chalice, Moxes, Zuran Orb), and still enables CoW shenanigans if you really want by having it out of the side. Is Karn slower? Yes. But with UW lists trying to slow the game down anyways, this is something we expect, so we might as well get something online with bigger bang for the buck.

[Fox]

So we're failing to understand that Burn just dies to Dreadnought, cause it always has. It doesn't matter what colors the Dreadnought is using, it's quicker than Burn *when* you have it (this takes 2 mana). Playing a 5 mana summoning sick angel is not a real thing against Burn. I'm also never going to rely on a 5-drop vs Reanimator - especially since the card is not randomly immune to being stolen if discarded.

Now *if* Burn gets the drop on you, gaining 12 life out of nowhere is highly effective; it's also a crushing blowout for them if this is in response to Smash to Smithereens. The correct reading of the situation is that when you gain 12 against Burn, that's a minimum of -4 draws for them and only -2 for you.

Getting to 3 mana isn't especially hard with 20 lands; we can talk about 20 vs 21 land, but I'm not interested in talking about the finer points of 3 mana with someone advocating for a 5-drop angel. On the other part you quoted, playing Mutavault + Retrofitter + Crucible together; you can find the meat and potatoes of that combo on a single PW which takes a single slot. By itself Crucible is one of the least defensible maindeck cards in legacy since the printing of Karn. There's no such thing as being pro-Crucible and anti-Karn (unless you're on Vintage Fastbond). Karn gives you Crucible without having to draw it, and you get access to killing basic lands or changing any problem permanent into a Plow target.

The cards you are advocating for cannot be played in Dreadnought because they're not part of the plan. You have some valid points, but most of the cards you say the deck needs would actively impede it (they're also often outdated). The key to this deck is de-railing other strategies, and Karn is too good at this to pass up. Without those lines of play, you have to account for things like Surgical and add threats, which reduces the deck to a strategy as simple as mono-U...and the greatest weakness there is that they're basically playing Merfolk [only one solution, no matter the obstacle].

Look at your suggested cards and tell me how exactly we're gaining access to lines like "your turn zero Chalice resolves, b/c I no longer care," instead of having to assess and answer problems in the same way as every other blue deck in legacy (which isn't playing a self 2-for-1). Any Dreadnought list should be picking up virtual CA by ignoring common format problems, not by stopping to directly answer them. The foundations of the deck have to be there before adding extraneous 1-offs that don't play nicely with the machine.

[Fox]

@crispymelee Stage can be whatever it wants. The opponent puts copy Depths on the stack [this is when you would Stifle, if that was your play] -> resolves, legend rule sac the Depths, check SBAs they put state-based trigger on stack -> Wasteland Stage [currently a Depths] -> resolve state-based trigger, fizzles. Check the weather outside, it's Rain of Salt.

[crispymelee]

@crispymelee Stage can be whatever it wants. The opponent puts copy Depths on the stack [this is when you would Stifle, if that was your play] -> resolves, legend rule sac the Depths, check SBAs they put state-based trigger on stack -> Wasteland Stage [currently a Depths] -> resolve state-based trigger, fizzles. Check the weather outside, it's Rain of Salt.

On the MTGS primer for lands (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands), they're claiming that the triggered ability on Depths is essentially "continuous" for lack of a better term and that Stifle only stops the initial trigger. i.e, We Stifle the first trigger > resolves > Depths once again sees it has 0 counters...

Is that accurate?

EDIT: errata on Oracle (https://scryfall.com/card/uma/241/dark-depths) seems to suggest the same, as it's apparently a "state trigger". :(

Double EDIT @ below: I misread your original answer. I see what you're getting at now. In short, Waste the Thespian-turned-Depths AFTER the original Depths is sac'd to Legend rule, but before the Doomsday trigger resolves.

[Fox]

if you're trying to use Stifle, you have to target the Stage activation to copy . You can't Stifle a Depths sac trigger to any effect (it will show back up once Stifle resolves). You [I]can Wasteland a Stage-gone-Depths with trigger on the stack, and after the land dies you resolve a Depths trigger that has nothing to sac, so it fizzles.

[frustanani]

[color=purple]When is the correct window to hit them with the Waste, if Thespian's is a "Basic Land" copy when it attempts to copy Depths?


https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31820&iddeck=274586
The thing is that dark depth decks use wasteland too.
Their gameplan is to play Thespian's Stage and make it unwastable as soon as they can copying Swamp, Forest or one of your basics. They also have mana acceleration to do it (like Mox Diamond). Yes, you can hit dark depth in response to the Thespian's Stage activation. But if you are a deck non giving them a fast clock, they can
- wait to find a Wasteland to get rid of your Wasteland before playing Dark depth
- or if they have also Vampire Hexmage on the field they sacrifice in response to your wastelanding in response to their activation
- they crop rotation in response and find another Dark Depth and not loosing the Stage
- some play 4 pithing needle, some even maindeck https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31934&iddeck=275947
For these reasons I suggested a split between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter.
NOTE: Thespian's Stage after copying a basic land, is a basic land (unwastable) with still the ability to copy somthing.

Myself, I stopped playing magic in 2012 and started again this year. Last decks I was playing were these
(miracle with counter-top, canadian threshold and maverik metagames)
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8557&iddeck=62434
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8185&iddeck=59700
but now, most of those cards are not playable anymore (except maybe for the angel but the side)

Some cards that COULD be interesting in your deck can be
- Brazen Borrower because of its versatility
- Psionic Blast kills planeswalker istant speed, most creatures and can kill opponent 1 turn faster
- Ponder is a card your list need to be more agile and set up your plays and find lands (not to draw dreadnought when you don't want it for example of to hide 2 from the top a bomb you don't want to be discarded by thoughtseize ...)
- Arcum's Astrolabe solves you the mana color problems
- Mystic Sanctuary to fetch when you want a Stifle back (maybe you have a Nought) or a Swords to Plowshares back (if the manabase gets ok).

(I would cut at least Verdicts and put them in the side)

This is what I'll test next turnament, a modified versione of the deck I made 4-0 last month in a Turin turnament
(was 4th time in a row I win the local weekly turnament with mono U even with different lists, sometimes with Standstill and Mishra, Bolas, or with Trinket)
But I haven't found a build so far I like with the 12/12. But now there are new interesting cards.

2 Mystic Sanctuary
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Augur of Bolas this card works
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Misdirection

4 Stifle
2 Vapor Snag
2 Dismember

Sideboard

2 Ghost Quarter
2 Psionic Blast
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Walking Ballista
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas

[filln]

Yes, you can hit dark depth in response to the Thespian's Stage activation. But if you are a deck non giving them a fast clock, they can
- or if they have also Vampire Hexmage on the field they sacrifice in response to your wastelanding in response to their activation


Few clarifying points here from a Lands/Depths player... as noted earlier, you shouldn't Wasteland the Dark Depths in response to a Thespian's Stage activation because then all you're doing is destroying the Dark Depths and your opponent keeps their Thespian's Stage. You should Wasteland after the Stage copy resolves while the trigger is on the stack to create the Marit Lage with their new Depths copy. That way you destroy both the Stage and the Depths.

There is another bonus of doing it this way as well. Imagine like in your Vampire Hexmage scenario that your opponent has both Stage and Hexmage in play. If your opponent decides to first use their Stage to copy Dark Depths and you decide to Wasteland their Depths in response then yes, they are able to activate Hexmage and make a token. However, let's say that you wait and let the Stage ability resolve. Now they have a copied Depths with zero counters and so the trigger to make a Marit Lage goes on the stack. If you Wasteland at this point then your opponent's Hexmage is useless. They are allowed to sacrifice their Hexmage and target the Depths but it does not cause it to re-trigger since there is already an instance of it on the stack.

[Fox]

There's a lot going on vs Depths, and a good amount of subgame openers. It might be a mana denial opener, might be a Standstill game, might be a Dreadnought game, or it might be a PW game. They might play Needle, but they have to care about Wasteland, Karakas, Teferi (even just the static), and Karn. On top of all this they have to care about Stifle and Plow while both sides are playing the discard vs permission & Brainstorm in response lottery.

The quicker their deck goes, the higher the variance. The slower they go, the more likely they are to have Crop Rot ravaged by Teferi static or start getting Strip Mine'd by Karn. There is an incredible amount of pressure on their hand to have a lot of things, and that's just for them to go off. They still have to play defense while all of this is happening, as we're also a combo deck. They can only withstand so many of their own 2-for-1 self (Mox, Hexmage, Stage/Depths, Crop Rot - that's around a third of their deck. If they start activating Reclaimer into Stifle we can bring that number up to around 24). All those Decays they're playing, well they can keep time walking themselves by drawing them - if I need them to tap out and use all their mana casting them, I'll give them a target.

In your analysis of UW, you're putting too much importance on making a Dreadnought. The deck is built to never need to actually deploy one. If we're making Dreadnoughts vs Depths, it's primarily meant to dictate to an opponent how they will use their Decay. If we get into a Scroll game, it's bad for them; if we get to Scroll + Teferi (or Standstill) it's basically unwinnable, b/c Decay quickly turns into a completely dead card (to add to a growing pile of dead cards).

When you advocate cutting Karn out of this picture, you suddenly have to try to win proactively. Forcing yourself into that situation [playing hard into Decay and Surgical], at the point of deck construction, is a far worse strategy than having a deck built to let Depths walk into all their 2-for-1's while we're sitting back drawing cards.

On the other cards:
-Brazen Borrower is fine. Probably not needed in UW, but it's fine.
-Psy Blast is okay, but I'm not putting that in a maindeck and it's not really getting the most out of a SB slot.
-Astrolabe is better in an E-Tutor build. There aren't enough slots to play 3-4x as the Dreadnought package is slot-intensive.
-You can't afford to lose games b/c Mystic Sanctuary was in your opening hand. A single Tundra in hand is bad enough already.
-Ponder means no Standstill, which means no Factory, which means Teferi is no longer playable, which means you're on UR Nought now. If I'm looking to play Standstill, I'm going to go from UR Dreadstill to just UW Standstill, and this gets us back to UW Dreadstill being the best user of Teferi (it covers the problems UW Standstill ran into). Yes, Ponder is good at finding lands, but it also means the deck doesn't have play to it, having bled off too many slots. The most important thing to understand about Ponder in Dreadnought is that it's going to pigeon-hole you towards playing a Dreadnought, which isn't exactly a winning plan. Consistency doesn't really help when the plan is underpowered.

[frustanani]

-Ponder means no Standstill, which means no Factory, which means Teferi is no longer playable, which means you're on UR Nought now.

What's wrong in playing all ?
I try to show you what I'm thinking about UW control with Dreadstill so that we understand better.
Not these exactly 75 but something like this:

1 Brazen Borrower
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Ponder (indeed with standstill)
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Scroll of Fate
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Psionic Blast
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Negation

3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Snow-Covered Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains

Sideboard funny example:

4 Delver of Secrets
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Negation
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Reins of Power
1 Teferi's Response

No more cc4 spells, No more WW mana Spells, but more blue lands, more istant spells, more manipulation
More free counterspells to be more sure your spells resolve (which are stronger than avarage opponents' cards: Standstill, Scroll and Teferi).
The only thing that is actually cutted is karn.
It might be not top competitive (Dreadnought is ?!) but at least you can play the cards in your hand, which becomes an active hand.
Playing spells and sharing them with the opponent is more fun than keeping cc4 bombs in your hand.

[Fox]

Verdict is an important effect which was allows us to sit around biding our time. Without it, you have forced yourself into being the beatdown and increased your reliance on Dreadnought connecting (especially since you're handing opponent life points with Plow). Your list isolates Dreadnought as absolutely integral to winning, which is a bad place to be - the opponent's wincon is killing 4 Noughts to the exclusion of all else (the rest of the creatures should be manageable).

If this is your gameplan you immediately lose 2 slots as you have to go up to 4x Scroll due to the profound reliance on the Nought. You now have to pick cards that ensure sure Scroll can't ever be turned off. If we're stacking up your list against Depths, a turn 1 Needle on Scroll is either game over or -2 cards (FoW). You can make a Dreadnought with Stifle, but you're doing that into the 4x Decay deck now; so this is just a loss by default. Against a known entity, that can't change b/c of the nature of its construction, you just handed them the control role to the point that they are barely required to combo. This deck accounts for ~10% of the meta, and that 10% chunk of the meta is responsible for roughly 2 out of every 3 decks which has Decay (and it's the only significant competitor packing 3+ copies of Decay).

There is nothing there to Ponder into that can play you out of a build-order loss to Depths. This is crucial to understanding the cost of Ponder - you can't use it to consistently assemble an underpowered plan and still succeed (see also Blade decks who are consistent, but more importantly consistently wrecked by comprehensively playing into Kcomm, Plague, and REB).

This is where, despite the power of Teferi + Scoll, we recognize the structural flaws. Then we revert to UR, whose combo is counting to 20, with or without Dreadnought (b/c it can support aggressive creatures, like Delver, better - note that Delver is hurt by giving opponents life, because that is a resource that turns into draw steps). If you're not playing a wrath, your removal needs to be part of the count to 20 combo (Bolt) - if it isn't Bolt, you are losing games you shouldn't be.

Now we've come full circle where UR Dreadstill is however good it is, but the walker that was made for us is in white. UW Standstill can't make forward progress with 3cmc Teferi until Terminus & Vial are combo-banned [this won't happen], or until they print a Port-proof [i.e. instant speed] wrath. It doesn't have much to do with which one is better (UW vs UR Dreadstill), because the game plans are fundamentally different. From the UW side it's about Dreadnought being the best Teferi shell. Your list moves away from that UW-colored assertion with every copy of Ponder it runs; every slot you lose to Ponder is a move away from manlands, which is a move away from Teferi's passive (conversely, we could also say this every copy is a move towards manlands and Teferi, but a move away from Dreadnought).

In terms of what is fun in legacy, rewarding people for playing the lowest form of magic [value duders and kill spells] decidedly isn't. I'd rather they have 7 kill spells in their hand, an ever-dwindling land count that can't cast them, and EoT Dreadnoughts they can't do anything about b/c of a Teferi passive. Maybe next time they'll use a strategy that plays to win.

---
Edit: on the Depths analysis the lack of Karn is more important than the Verdict. I can go into more detail about the build order loss your list has there, but the main thing to take away is that if the Depths player is competent they won't ever try to make a 20/20. They will win by default with 2/1 first strike and 3/4s. They win even harder if you ever put a Factory on board for them to copy. Your list's entire strategy against them would be to hope they fail to evaluate the situation and keep trying to make Lage.

[colo]

I've got some more reps in with my mono-U, Scroll/Nought-reliant list, and began to suffer a series of crushing defeats the last few tries, amongst others from 3c Snow Control, UW Miracles, and Infect. The latter was probably due to my lack of experience with the matchup with a deck that is bad at being able to blocking early. All things considered, I can't shake the feeling that the Goddes of Luck is out to punish me a bit (last Friday, I had no less than six 7-card hands with zero lands during all my frantic mulliganing, and countered a whopping single Brainstorm off of a blind-flipped Counterbalance out of maybe ten such opportunities ;)) for whatever she thinks I deserve it for. I tested both Vantress Gargoyle (and quickly reached the conclusion that it's a trap card) and Brazen Borrower (a card that, afaict, it is absolutely justified getting excited about!). I don't think it's time for Stratus Dancer to be replaced, but for Brazen Borrower to be included. Not really sure what to cut yet (right now, I have two in the main over one Peordain and one Stratus Dancer).

[Fox]

2-2 today. Decks in room were Food Chain, Goblins, UW Vial stuff, 4c Delver, UR Delver, Grixis Delver, Moon Stompy, UB Shadow, and an unknown.

-R1 vs Moon Stompy (2-0): game 1 on the draw, had a FoW for their Chalice and made a turn 2 Nought. Game 2 opponent mulls to 5, but gets their turn 1 Chalice to resolve followed by their turn 2 Chandra; I build to Karn and they are unable to ult Chandra sitting on 7 loyalty (Coating), they start losing lands and go on to concede. Game 2 Karn knocked out 3x Chalice x=1.
-R2 vs 4c Delver (2-0): ran them out of resources, they died to something. Unless something interesting is happening in games of Delver, I'm mostly going to post the record. Both wins on the draw.
-R3 vs Grixis Delver (1-2): lost die roll, won game 2. Opponent on Stifle, but their list doesn't have Wrenn. Their land-go play patterns negate any advantage they were trying to accrue by being on the play (I have no issue playing land-go), and they are able to win 2x on the play games which were navigated to topdeck wars - a statistically poor place for a Delver to be against my deck. While they didn't draw them, Arcanist is poorly positioned vs a Teferi-centric deck.
-R4 vs UB Shadow (0-2): won the die roll, but variance happens sometimes; not concerned about this matchup. Pilot is solid player, no mistakes seen.

Of note, both round 3 & 4 opponents were running Bitterblossom. Perhaps associate underpowered [no-Wrenn] Delver shells with this card again, despite Plague Engineer being a card. No changes at this time seem needed. JVP did fine today, forcing opponents into forced play patterns. I cut him down to 1x in post-board games vs Delver.

Round 3 opponent didn't much like seeing my Karn at first. When I asked him to guess what I was tutoring (vs his on-board Delver) he had the disgusted retort of Lattice, but we both got a chuckle out of the Cursed Scroll I went for. Sadly they had exactly FoN (instead of FoW) in hand with <5 lands. :laugh:

[crispymelee]

Excited to finally post up results and contribute some data and impressions. Here 's the list and SB I took to the event (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/?cb=1571031135)


Went 2-3-1 today in my first tournament in a literal decade. All things considered, that's 1 more win than I was hoping to earn so I'm pleased with how I did. The losses I took I felt were fair and the opponents were obviously skilled and experienced with their lists. Areas that need the most improvement:
- Sideboarding. It felt like I wasn't using enough of my SB to make a significant impact on a given matchup.
- Rules familiarity. Rust was a factor, but as they say in Melee, "no johns". Thankfully, the group at the LGS was a great group a guys and were more than helpful in bringing me up to speed.
- Meta/Matchup knowledge. Obviously things change in 10 years. Got a lot to read up on but I'm sure the games will get easier and I'll have a more concrete plan against more matchups moving forward.

Round 1 vs Bomberman (0-2), 0-1 overall: I'm on the draw, and I have no idea what my opponent was playing. Island -> go. Was happy to see him run out Ancient Tomb -> LED t1; had a FoW waiting for it. Didn't expect a second LED to follow immediately after. He goes Chalice on 1 t1, drops a second Ancient Tomb for Chalice on 2 t2, and I'm effectively locked out until he goes nuts with Salvager, LED, and Ballista with.

+1 Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives; -1 Karn, -1 Supreme Verdict - in hindsight, I could have put in RiP and E.Tutor to stop the combo shenanigans, -2(?) Standstill

I felt safe taking out a Verdict not having really seen any critters G1, and G2 is a bit slower. Unfortunately he gets Cavern of Souls naming Humans, and I'm unable to stop his Mentor hitting the table and running me over with Monks.

Round 2 vs Jund Midrange (2-0), 1-1 overall: G1 I get an incredible hand on the play. By t3, I've wasted one of his Bayous, and a Dreadnought gets in for the win swiftly.

I faked sideboarding for the match, putting in 3 and taking out the same 3. The game ended too quickly for me to really see anything, but I didn't see anything that concerned me enough to change out the MB.

G2 looks really shakey. All both of us hit are lands until the 5th turn or so. Early disruption took a Scroll and while I Mana Leaked the first Veil Lilliana, I had nothing for the second and the W6 that followed. StP answers his Plague Engineer and leave both his PWs open to Factory beats, keeping them off their ults. I'm able to buy enough time to land Karn. A Scroll fetch and a couple turns later, Dreadnought and a Manifested Scroll carry the day.

Round 3 vs Red Stompy (2-0), 2-1 overall: The fastest match of my day. I have a Force for his t1 Chrome Mox attempt, and while he manages to stick a second, his t3 Blood Moon also meets a Force. A "hardcasted" Nought is enough to carry the game.

same as Rd2, I simply took out the 4 cards I "sided" in

G2 is unfortunate for him; he keeps a risky one-lander, and is unable to find land for 4 consecutive turns; Moxes are unable to resolve. By the time he starts to build a mana base, Karn and Scroll are active and he falls to a Manifested Nought.

Round 4/5 vs Ichorid (1-2 and 0-2), 2-3 overall: Gonna group games 4/5 together since they went very similarly. I'm completely unversed in this matchup. That being said, I was able to take g2 from the first Ichorid player. Ashiok, EE, and CPriest were critical for slowing him down enough for my Nought to get in. G1 was within reach (he took himself down to 2 life between Cephalid Colosseum, City of Brass, and Mana Confluence and I had a Factory with activation mana), but I was unable to find either a Karn -> EE or a Verdict to clear his board. Rd 5 is a complete blowout.

+ 1 RiP, +1 Grafdigger's, +1 Tormod's, +1 Ashiok's, +1 Containment Priest, +1 E.Tutor; -1 Karn, -3 Standstill, -2 Spell Snare

Round 6 vs Jeskai Control (1-1 on time), 2-3-1 overall: G1 is taken by me on the play, winning a counter spell war over an early Stifle targeting my Nought. He's unable to find StP in time.

+1 E.Tutor, -1 Standstill

We finish up G2, but with only 8 minutes left on the clock. Both of us played Land-> go for 4 turns straight, and my Factory beats on him to whole time. With him at 2 life left he hits draw first, and uses Accumulated Knowledge + Mystic Sanctuary to pull ahead (didn't realize it had Island typing). I don't have enough counters to deal with Narset, Small Teferi, AND JtMS.

Highlights & Lowlights:
+ everyone loved to watch the deck. Looking at the results posted here over the past 6 months, no one ran anything close to this list so everyone got a kick out of seeing Noughts hit the board via Manifest.
+ Mana Leak. I took the feedback to heart; with the manabase being what it is, I went with a 1U permission instead of UU. It made a difference, and there was never a situation where I looked at it and wanted/needed a CS, except vs the Jeskai Control list.
matchup and indecision/lack of a plan led to a lot of unforced errors.
+ Scroll of Fate. As good as advertised if not better. That being said, I was happy with 2x MB and the 3rd in the Side. It's an incredible tool to diversify and deepen threats we can play; UR versions should certainly run 3x minimum in the main.
+ Dreadstill as an archetype. Having finally gotten to play this list live, I can honestly say I love it. Being able to play a control role while still having meaningful, game-ending threats was fantastic. No game felt completely out of reach for me which wasn't something I could say when I piloted Landstill.
+ paper Magic. I'd forgotten how much fun it is to swing cardboard at other players. Looking forward to my next tournament.
- First time playing vs Ichorid x2; not salty in the least. My opponents played well and were cool guys. Just a bummer not really being sure how to approach the matchup.
- Spell Snare. Total times used: 0. Mana Leak ended up being more useful as it stopped a Liliana from hitting the table and a Trinisphere the game after. Everytime I had one, I ended up wishing it was a Pierce

[Fox]

Not too bad for first time with the deck. On your 3x non-FoW counters, I wouldn't run Pierce over Snare. I quite like FoN x2 + Snare in this shell.

Against Bomberman: don't cut Karn or Verdict. Forcing LED is best reserved vs Storm and Dredge. Try to avoid FoW on Chalice (depends on your hand; i.e. do you have Karn or Teferi + do you have Plow or Dreadnought/Stifle). Their only outlets to win are 4x Karn (highest priority to FoW), Salvagers, and Mentor (try and deal with these with Nought race or white cards). If you have a Karn line, you can pretty much let any Mytsic Forge resolve; also can be fine to let it resolve into a followup Teferi -3 (this will force them into predicted play pattern of -4 mana next turn). With your SB I like +1 EE, beyond that I'd mostly be looking at Crypt/Needle/E Tutor. I don't think the yard hate really matters that much (Karn can wish for all of it back), so an approach of +1 Nought, +1 Scroll, +1 EE also works. In terms of what to cut, I'd take out any Spell Snare for sure, and probably all counterspells not called FoW/FoN. Remaining cuts can come out of trimming SCM and Standstill. This is one of those matchups where you'd really want Humility registered in SB (this is where you could swap out a Verdict).

Against Jund: minimal boarding seems fine. Just remember that they're a P-Fire deck (at least historically), so I'd bring in an Ashiok. Bringing in Crucible is probably fine. One thing to remember with Ashiok is that -1 self cannot be countered by Veil of Summer (they still lose GY). I would trim a Standstill and FoW.

Against Moon Stompy: probably avoid FoW vs Chrome Mox (you have Teferi and Karn), remember that you can also Stifle the imprint. There's no hard and fast rules beyond this, you have to weigh every lock piece/creature/Blood Moon against your plan. For SB I'd bring in E-Tutor and EE, trim an SCM and a Standstill.

Against Dredge: boarding looks correct, but you need to bring in E-Tutor as well. I like the cuts. Remember to Stifle the Narcomoeba & Cephalid when not threatening Nought. Trimming Teferi seems fine if you're not seeing more green cards than Golgari Grave Troll (Teferi stops Force of Vigor ideas from the board).

Against UWx: Ashiok Ashiok Ashiok. Fluster is fine to bring in (cuts likely come from FoW), and RiP should pretty much come in every time you see SCM + REB. Side out 1x Plow and can trim a Standstill or 2nd copy of Plow (depends on their creature set). AK or not, UWx should be treated like a GY combo deck. Don't bring in bad cards (Grafdigger's), but do prioritize Karn -> wish Tormod's, which should generally be high on the list of plays you want to make. Kill red mana and keep them off of WW as best you can.

Edit: really important to point out that any legacy deck that runs Karn almost certainly has a garbage matchup against an opposing Karn. Other Karn decks are turbo-linear and failed [at the point of deck construction] to have any reliable way to deal with an opposing Karn.

[crispymelee]

/snip

Thank you for all the pointers; they will definitely be helpful. Unsurprisingly, the decks I did the best against were the ones I had experience playing with.

Of note was significant shift in the expected meta; it had been stable over the past 3 months in a roughly 40/40/20 split of Combo/Midrange/Linear Aggro & Control, yesterday saw a doubling of the of decks I'm broadly labeling "control" from September to October (17% -> 36%), taken almost entirely from the Midrange population. (~34% -> 15%).

In the past, redundant & linear decks like Burn and Goblins gave Control fits; with CB/Top essentially a non-factor, I'm thinking I want to aim for a UR list to take to the next event.

[Mr. Safety]

I've got some more reps in with my mono-U, Scroll/Nought-reliant list, and began to suffer a series of crushing defeats the last few tries, amongst others from 3c Snow Control, UW Miracles, and Infect. The latter was probably due to my lack of experience with the matchup with a deck that is bad at being able to blocking early. All things considered, I can't shake the feeling that the Goddes of Luck is out to punish me a bit (last Friday, I had no less than six 7-card hands with zero lands during all my frantic mulliganing, and countered a whopping single Brainstorm off of a blind-flipped Counterbalance out of maybe ten such opportunities ;)) for whatever she thinks I deserve it for. I tested both Vantress Gargoyle (and quickly reached the conclusion that it's a trap card) and Brazen Borrower (a card that, afaict, it is absolutely justified getting excited about!). I don't think it's time for Stratus Dancer to be replaced, but for Brazen Borrower to be included. Not really sure what to cut yet (right now, I have two in the main over one Peordain and one Stratus Dancer).

How many Gargoyles were you playing? I am trying to figure out how many to play, as I see it as a good threat but not necessarily a build around. What about it makes do you think its a trap card?

[colo]

I had two in the mainboard, and kept drawing those two copies ALL. THE. TIME. It was so annoying that I, at one point, publicly and jokingly complained to spectators of our round about its magically magentic nature ("wie Hundescheiße am Schuh"), and they would get amused whenever I drew, ponder-shuffle-drew, or mulliganed into yet another copy of Vantress Gargoyle.

Most of the time, it was a 5/4 Artifact susceptible to critter removal, and just sat there as a symmetrical, poor Millstone knock-off. I attacked exactly once with it all night, and that was due to a Vision Charm conditional mode that's a pretty deperate move in itself in my book. I think it's pretty clear that Gargoyle is a high variance card, but the bottom of its potential range of effectiveness is way too low.

[Mr. Safety]

I had two in the mainboard, and kept drawing those two copies ALL. THE. TIME. It was so annoying that I, at one point, publicly and jokingly complained to spectators of our round about its magically magentic nature ("wie Hundescheiße am Schuh"), and they would get amused whenever I drew, ponder-shuffle-drew, or mulliganed into yet another copy of Vantress Gargoyle.

Most of the time, it was a 5/4 Artifact susceptible to critter removal, and just sat there as a symmetrical, poor Millstone knock-off. I attacked exactly once with it all night, and that was due to a Vision Charm conditional mode that's a pretty deperate move in itself in my book. I think it's pretty clear that Gargoyle is a high variance card, but the bottom of its potential range of effectiveness is way too low.

Thanks for the insight, because I've been retooling my deck to get Standstill back in (to synergize with Scroll) and I was really wondering if Vision Charm was worth any slots. I was also thinking that I would want only 2 copies of Gargoyle, but in order to make Standstill work I would need the Factories again. Adding a bad card (Vision Charm) to make a mediocre card better (Gargoyle) doesn't seem like a recipe for success. However, with only Brainstorm as the cantrip Delver doesn't flip nearly as often as when playing a Ponder shell. I think the Scrolls are fantastic with Standstill and ok with Delver/Ponder (no extra cards from Standstill to feed it.)

So my thoughts are these:

1) Play Delver + Ponder, no Standstill, don't cap out on Scroll (2-3) because you won't have extra cards to feed it. Delver needs Ponder to flip consistently. With Delver, Vantress Gargoyle isn't needed because you have Delver/Dreadnought/Scroll/Factory for threats.

2) Play full set of Scroll + Standstill to feed it. Factories are a must, Gargoyle becomes a little better as a late game threat because the pressure doesn't come from Delver but rather from Standstill + Scroll/Factory.

I am thinking of going with the 2nd option, which is contradictory to my other list (Ponder, 18 lands, no Standstills/Factories) but I feel like in order to really make Scroll busted it needs Standstill.

Here is my new list that I think has a lot more potential, because it takes full advantage of Scroll.

2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
1x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Misdirection
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Echoing Truth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


No Winter Orbs (factories are too important) and 22 lands lets me play PW's (Narset/Jace). Vapor Snag is to have a turn 1 play that can bounce a creature into a t2 Standstill. I always flooded a ton with 4 Standstills, but with Scroll that flood turns directly into threats.

[crispymelee]

Thanks for the insight, because I've been retooling my deck to get Standstill back in (to synergize with Scroll) and I was really wondering if Vision Charm was worth any slots. I was also thinking that I would want only 2 copies of Gargoyle, but in order to make Standstill work I would need the Factories again. Adding a bad card (Vision Charm) to make a mediocre card better (Gargoyle) doesn't seem like a recipe for success. However, with only Brainstorm as the cantrip Delver doesn't flip nearly as often as when playing a Ponder shell. I think the Scrolls are fantastic with Standstill and ok with Delver/Ponder (no extra cards from Standstill to feed it.)

So my thoughts are these:

1) Play Delver + Ponder, no Standstill, don't cap out on Scroll (2-3) because you won't have extra cards to feed it. Delver needs Ponder to flip consistently. With Delver, Vantress Gargoyle isn't needed because you have Delver/Dreadnought/Scroll/Factory for threats.

2) Play full set of Scroll + Standstill to feed it. Factories are a must, Gargoyle becomes a little better as a late game threat because the pressure doesn't come from Delver but rather from Standstill + Scroll/Factory.

I am thinking of going with the 2nd option, which is contradictory to my other list (Ponder, 18 lands, no Standstills/Factories) but I feel like in order to really make Scroll busted it needs Standstill.

Here is my new list that I think has a lot more potential, because it takes full advantage of Scroll.

2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
1x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Misdirection
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Echoing Truth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


No Winter Orbs (factories are too important) and 22 lands lets me play PW's (Narset/Jace). Vapor Snag is to have a turn 1 play that can bounce a creature into a t2 Standstill. I always flooded a ton with 4 Standstills, but with Scroll that flood turns directly into threats.

- Re: Vision Charm; I think if you're running at least 2-3 Scrolls, it may be redundant. Between 4 Stifles, a Scroll Karn could wish for in the SB, and 2 scrolls MB, I never found myself wishing for more Dreadnought enablers. If my experience on Sunday was anything to go by, you'd be saving a Factory in the red zone more often with Charm, than blinking/enabling our big boy.

- I think you're totally right in wanting to get Standstills back in to pair with Scroll. Of the 6 games I won, in 4 I got to drop Scroll -> Standstill. Even when I wasn't Manifesting Dreadnoughts, a steady stream of Bears is no joke.

- On Lands: I think you could safely cut down to 21 lands and use that slot for a singleton utility/bomb? Something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, since you got Gargoyles going on? I'd probably cut a Wasteland. With 20, there was only a single game all day where I experienced any sort of mana issue that kept me from playing the game, and that's because I kept a very risky 1-lander with Brainstorm (read: my own fault).

[Rood]

Snap may actually be better then Vapor Snag. Since we have no way to abuse it can turn 2 bounce and deploy a SS.

[Mr. Safety]

Snap may actually be better then Vapor Snag. Since we have no way to abuse it can turn 2 bounce and deploy a SS.

Snap would only be good if followed by a Standstill, otherwise it's an overcosted Unsummon. I don't have a lot of instant speed ways to take advantage of the spare 2 mana, maybe a timely Daze without bouncing lands. I think in most situations Vapor Snag's lower cost will be relevant. It doesn't come up very often, but that last point of life loss from Snag has actually won me some games.

You've definitely got me thinking hard about these disruption slots, lol.

[Mr. Safety]

- Re: Vision Charm; I think if you're running at least 2-3 Scrolls, it may be redundant. Between 4 Stifles, a Scroll Karn could wish for in the SB, and 2 scrolls MB, I never found myself wishing for more Dreadnought enablers. If my experience on Sunday was anything to go by, you'd be saving a Factory in the red zone more often with Charm, than blinking/enabling our big boy.

- I think you're totally right in wanting to get Standstills back in to pair with Scroll. Of the 6 games I won, in 4 I got to drop Scroll -> Standstill. Even when I wasn't Manifesting Dreadnoughts, a steady stream of Bears is no joke.

- On Lands: I think you could safely cut down to 21 lands and use that slot for a singleton utility/bomb? Something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, since you got Gargoyles going on? I'd probably cut a Wasteland. With 20, there was only a single game all day where I experienced any sort of mana issue that kept me from playing the game, and that's because I kept a very risky 1-lander with Brainstorm (read: my own fault).




-I have the full set of Scrolls, they are too good to play less an 4. So I have 8 dreadnought enablers, which is penty.
-I think Scroll makes Standstill playable, otherwise I don't think it's as good as Ponder. Just my small sample size of experience.
-21 Lands is ok in most cases, and I wouldn't hesitate to even go to 20 with Ponder included. With Scroll, extra lands are actually great as 2/2's. I want 22 to feed Scroll and to help cast PW's/Sower out of the sideboard.

[crispymelee]

So, my focus as UR is to count to 20 as fast and consistently as possible. Compared to UW, this suggests to me:

1. Bigger emphasis on creatures and Noughts --> more enablers
2. Need direct non-creature sources of damage. --> reach, ideally repeatable
3. Need ways to force through #1 and #2. --> counters, redundancy

So, using Rood's list as a starting point, came up with this (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-dread-1/?cb=1571338768).

The biggest changes being in the manabase and the addition of The Royal Scions. What do you guys think of him as a supporting card in UR builds?
+ High initial Loyalty
+ He loots(ala Merfolk Looter)
+ Grants a neutered Sword of Vengeance (no Haste or Vigilance) to Factories and Delvers
+ Relevant Ult
+ Pitches to Force
- Does nothing to control the board the turn he comes down.
- takes up Scroll Slots/Ponder/Utility slots
- Worst case scenario, 3 mana to loot or be a really bad thunder strike

Given that I'm "only" running Brainstorm and Standstill, some other source of card draw/filtering seems nice. If he's ignored, he builds up to a nice ultimate. Possibly buys a turn or two of damage away from your face. His looting potentially fuels Lavaman, though I don't run have him in this current build since he feels like he ONLY provides reach with such a fragile body, which brings me to...

Delver. Only 23 Instants seems low (Rood's base list has 24). At what point should I drop him and go for Lavaman or a different low-cost beater?

As always, looking forward to hearing all you guys' thoughts on this.

[Rood]

For 3 mana planeswalkers on UR im much higher on Narset and Mu Yanling for legacy. Scions imo is worse then baby Jace.

[frustanani]

So, my focus as UR is to count to 20 as fast and consistently as possible. Compared to UW, this suggests to me:

1. Bigger emphasis on creatures and Noughts --> more enablers
2. Need direct non-creature sources of damage. --> reach, ideally repeatable



1 slot for Fling ?

[Mr. Safety]

I've been jamming/goldfishing this list and I really like it. It took a few practice games to find out where the tweaks needed to happen, and it is likely still not optimal (but I won't know that until after the 1K/real experience.)

2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
3x Standstill
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Misdirection
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Tormod’s Crypt/Surgical Extraction (not sure yet, leaning towards Crypt)
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Echoing Truth
3x OPEN

Potential Cards for the open slots:

Crucible of Worlds
Pithing Needle
Dismember
Misdirection
Dispel
Vendilion Clique
Torpor Orb


I was on 3 Dismember, but I was flooding out on them. Same with Standstill at 4 copies, so I just jammed a maindeck Jace, which has been great. Gargoyle is fine as a 2-of; it helps to stabilize early against faster threats and can close games quickly once opponents have threshold.

A quick note about closing out games: I have noticed often it's a 1-2 turn swing. Often game wins come out of nowhere where I combine Dreagnought + Factory + 2/2 manifested card for lethal. I upped the countermagic count to the full 12 with a split of Pierce/Snare and I'm very happy with that.

[Fox]

@crispymelee - Royal Scions doesn‘t seem like a great financial investment. First two abilities feel like a mode you‘d expect on a 1 mana charm. Not a PW that will succeed that well at diverting an opponent‘s attention, also a Pyroblast target. Chandra ToD is the perfect example of what UR wants, it‘s just a large mana investment. Perhaps a better comparison for Scions is simply “why isn‘t this just a Grim Lavamancer?“ You have more hits to get under your own Standstill, ability to shrink a Goyf, able to kill most things which would block a Delver. You‘ve already got Scroll to pseudo-loot away dead cards, then you‘ve Lavamancer to add in 2 points of burn (which is like giving Delver trample, if you‘re killing a potential blocker), and you are transmuting cards in yard into shock (which is like building your own Scion ult). I just don‘t see how tapping down for Scion adds anything you didn‘t already have (or have access to), and that‘s the difference with Chandra; immediate [count to 20 engine] value towards a game-winning ult. Opponents have to react immediately to a ‘value Vortex‘ [Chandra] when you‘re actively counting to 20, whereas Scions can largely be ignored.

My pre-Scroll UR lists always ran 4x Delver and 2x Lavaman, and the only thing you have to do to support that is have a basic mountain (which you‘d kinda need anyways if you were ever considering Scions). I think Lavamancer has also remained a much stronger choice than Gargoyle. When it comes to going big with UR, I don‘t like how much Hydroblast is in the format now (don‘t like idea of putting 4 mana into Chandra to die to 1 mana), so I‘d be looking at Karn. It‘s a fine maindeck choice (randomly hateful, Chalice killer, access to wish-Crypt/Coating/etc...) and goes into the same slots as extra copies of Scroll would.

[Rood]

Couple of matches on stream for you guys to check out. First is Miracle control vs me (Dreadstill) second is BR reanimator

https://youtu.be/UeARgXexIgc
https://youtu.be/3JXl3s7IajA
https://youtu.be/fKkBN165jyc
https://youtu.be/hpUE0G6VoQ0

[Fox]

3-0 today, 8 decks in room were Tezz+Antiquities War, Gobbos, Merfolk, UWr Mentor, 4c Delver, Bomberman, ANT, and manifest destiny.

R1 vs UWr Mentor (2-1): game 1 draw 4 Dreadnoughts, which was fairly comical. Game 2 my 2x Scoll wears opponent's interaction down until they're forced to play a Jace; this play results in a -14 life penalty putting the opponent at 1 and they concede. Game 3 the opponent buckles under the weight of Cursed Scroll early and Scroll of Fate + Mastery later; they ran out of gas after about their 8th removal. Both games 2 and 3 were won against on-board Teferi. Their deck had zero Counterbalance so this isn't an unexpected result.

R2 vs Tezz (2-1): game 1 they have Chalice but it runs into FoW, I make a turn 2 Dreadnought and FoN their E-Bridge. Game 2 they resolve Chalice on 1 and I can't draw anything relevant (have something like 10 live draws possible). Game 3 they don't have Chalice in their opener (or they just lacked a sol land) and they respond to turn 2 Nought with a Strix; this runs into Plow and game ends.

R3 vs Bomberman (2-1): game 1 their Chalice is hit by FoW and they die to turn 2 Nought. Game 2 their turn 1 Chalice x=1 buys some time but it's the second Chalice x=3 that buys them enough time; they had to go for a desperation Karn -> Lattice against Factory beats but even with Standstill I can't draw a single FoW (if Lattice died on the stack, so would they). Game 3 has an interesting opening where opponent is able to get down C. Priest and Salvagers, and draw about 5 cards off Bauble recursion before my turn 2 Ratchet takes care of it. After a StP on CP the Factory and Scroll beats begin and even though they find Auriok #2, it runs into a Humility. Their first 3x Karns were countered and the 4th came too late for them (unable to tap Tomb).

All 3 matches were lost die rolls and there were 2x mull to 6 and 1x mull to 5 today. Strange sets of hands where I actually had reasons to FoW turn 0 Chalices and saw only 1x Teferi today.

@Rood that was some loose Fetching by miracles not scrambling for Plains when they had the chance. Also the whole Fetch a Dual with the Vista. :laugh: Also siiiiiick FoN pitch FoW vs BR. :cool: Only things I saw were missed Standstill trigger vs miracles g2 and against BR game 3 I think it was worth considering leaving 3x Grisel in deck after Surgical given the board state. How many Scroll were you on today?

[Mr. Safety]

Couple of matches on stream for you guys to check out. First is Miracle control vs me (Dreadstill) second is BR reanimator

https://youtu.be/UeARgXexIgc
https://youtu.be/3JXl3s7IajA

Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?

[Fox]

Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?

Wasteland corrected the error anyhow, based on their 2 Strand punt in an earlier game (failing to understand Stifle) it was likely an honest mistake. Note that Counterbalance reinforces poor play b/c it bails players out of savage punts rather than handing them out well-deserved losses (from which they could learn to improve).

[Rood]

Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?

I know Dean he’s a good dude. Honest mistake. Couple more videos going up (Total of 4)

My matches definitely showcase Standstills power as to why I think its irreplacable in the deck.

[crispymelee]

Couple of matches on stream for you guys to check out. First is Miracle control vs me (Dreadstill) second is BR reanimator

https://youtu.be/UeARgXexIgc
https://youtu.be/3JXl3s7IajA
https://youtu.be/fKkBN165jyc
https://youtu.be/hpUE0G6VoQ0

Absolute gold, looking forward to reviewing these.




3-0 today, 8 decks in room were Tezz+Antiquities War, Gobbos, Merfolk, UWr Mentor, 4c Delver, Bomberman, ANT, and manifest destiny.

/snip breakdown

Congrats on the result! Cursed Scroll is neat; is that mostly for some extra reach in UW since we lack the direct damage R traditionally provides?

[Fox]

Congrats on the result! Cursed Scroll is neat; is that mostly for some extra reach in UW since we lack the direct damage R traditionally provides?


Cursed Scroll gets rid of annoyances like Mother of Runes + Revoker and any flash ambushers vs Factory (or trying to be fancy with C. Priest). It also Trolls walkers and pressures life totals. Decks that sit back and do nothing are quite easily able to kill Dreadnoughts, but they are quite poorly equipped to deal with non-stop Cursed Scroll pressure, especially if you combo it with a stream of 2/2s from Scroll of Fate maintaining low hand size. Also important to point out that Teferi + Scroll insta-kills enemy Mentor.

[frustanani]

Couple of matches on stream for you guys to check out. First is Miracle control vs me (Dreadstill) second is BR reanimator

https://youtu.be/UeARgXexIgc
https://youtu.be/3JXl3s7IajA
https://youtu.be/fKkBN165jyc
https://youtu.be/hpUE0G6VoQ0

Where you playing this ?

7 fetchlands
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Scroll of Fate
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Brazen Borrower
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection

[Mr. Safety]

I know Dean he’s a good dude. Honest mistake. Couple more videos going up (Total of 4)

My matches definitely showcase Standstills power as to why I think its irreplacable in the deck.

I've watched 3/4 of the videos so far and I have to agree, Standstill seemed AMAZING. One thing I did notice was that Delver quite often had a hard time flipping; I've noticed that in my games as well. What are your thoughts on Delver?

[AngryBacon]

One thing I did notice was that Delver quite often had a hard time flipping; I've noticed that in my games as well.

The deck lists about as many instants than a typical Delver list, but has only half its cantrips. If flipping Delver was an actual issue, I would look at replacing a Spell Snare and a Scroll of Fate for 2 copies of Ponder.

About the deck itself, I think it's pretty good to give it some exposure with what ELD uploads on YouTube. Having watched some of them where the deck is showcased, I think you (Rood?) had a number of those wins thanks to clueless opponents. Which is why I only play "rogue" decks anyway I suppose :-)

Here is what I will sleeve next when I receive my Brazen Borrower and Magmatic Sinkhole:

4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Scroll of Fate
2 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 True-Name Nemesis
Sideboard:
2 Abrade
2 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
2 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction

Here's the link where I'll keep the up to date 75: https://deckbox.org/sets/2494824

[Fox]

I don't think anyone at Rood's gamestore gets to blame rogue deck against Dreadstill. :tongue:

Your colored land count isn't high enough @AngryBacon, it's 2 fewer colored lands than Delver and you're playing a basic Mountain. You can maybe get away with 13 colored sources, but that's the first land total at which I'd consider basic Mountain over Volc (also swapping out Vista to U Fetch). The more color-unstable your manabase is, the more you need to be able to play colorless hands (increase Scroll amount).

[Rood]

I have actually cut TNN from my list for more copies of Scroll of fate... but its fine i guess to 2/2 split. These videos were right before commander 2019. I outplayed a few of my opponents in the matches.. but thats half the battle in magic. People at my store definitely know Dreadstill and what im on.

[H]

I outplayed a few of my opponents in the matches.. but thats half the battle in magic. People at my store definitely know Dreadstill and what im on.

Reminds me of when Tom Ross was just wrecking people while he was jamming Infect all the time. He was just so good at executing his plan, even through people knowing exactly what his plan was. Which is probably part of the plan, using your opponent's plan against them.

[AngryBacon]

Your colored land count isn't high enough @AngryBacon, it's 2 fewer colored lands than Delver and you're playing a basic Mountain. You can maybe get away with 13 colored sources, but that's the first land total at which I'd consider basic Mountain over Volc (also swapping out Vista to U Fetch).

Yeah, this is what I think as well, but haven't had issues when testing so I got greedy and included the 4 Wasteland as a test I suppose. The Mountain should be a Volcanic Island, but there are a lot of Wasteland and Assassin's Trophy where I play so will see with proper testing.


The more color-unstable your manabase is, the more you need to be able to play colorless hands (increase Scroll amount).

Do you mean less TNN and more Scroll of Fate?

[Fox]

@AngryBacon Yes Scroll would be easier to cast than TNN [i.e. good substitution given same cmc].

@H the skillsets are somewhat similar to Infect. I think Infect plays a bit closer to Depths. Outside of the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland randomly occurring states [where we have ~2+ land advantage] we don‘t really pick spots to ‘go for it‘ based on opponents‘ turn 2-3 land drop/untapped mana states. Playing Dreadnought is more positionally used for something like duress‘ing removal away from a Delver (this also serves to drain their mana into our next line of play, ideally Standstill). If they fail to answer “duress-Noughts“ then they just die, but the purpose was always to drag them into a subgame of magic where normal legacy rules don‘t work as damage is piling up.

[H]

@H the skillsets are somewhat similar to Infect. I think Infect plays a bit closer to Depths. Outside of the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland randomly occurring states [where we have ~2+ land advantage] we don‘t really pick spots to ‘go for it‘ based on opponents‘ turn 2-3 land drop/untapped mana states. Playing Dreadnought is more positionally used for something like duress‘ing removal away from a Delver (this also serves to drain their mana into our next line of play, ideally Standstill). If they fail to answer “duress-Noughts“ then they just die, but the purpose was always to drag them into a subgame of magic where normal legacy rules don‘t work as damage is piling up.

Well, I didn't really mean that Infect and Dreastill are comparable decks, per se, only that your opponent knowing what you are on might not help them when you are a skilled pilot. In fact, it could be just the opposite. Ross' opponents knowing he was on Infect might have helped him and Rood's opponents knowing he is on Dreadnaught might help him too, because they are both so skilled at executing their plan or get the game to states where they can execute their plan far better than their opponent can execute theirs.

Depths operates a similar way, but I was more talking about playstyle rather than actual deck choice.

[AngryBacon]

@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.

On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)

On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?

[crispymelee]

@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.

On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)

On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?

@ discord:
Call me old, but I just prefer the forum format:
+ information is tracked over time and is "stationary"; you can literally witness this deck's evolution through the years
+ posts can cover multiple responses and link to older material.

That being said, I do have a discord and have tried out a couple different Legacy servers. My issues:
- responses can be very quickly buried into irrelevance.
- searching for specific things feels very difficult (could just be a user issue, I'm new to discord)
- while I'm not aware of any size limit on a discord post, posts relating to legitimate discussion "feel" shorter to me. This has been true in discord groups I've tried for other games I'm active in such as Street Fighter and Smash.

I have no issues with lots of text that detail interactions or lines of play and I enjoy comprehensive answers behind certain lines of play or card selections. I feel like it makes me and other readers of the thread better players.

@ Hushbringer: Someone (Fox?) highlighted it's potential use (and atrocious art) when it was spoiled a few pages ago. Not sure if anyone's actively tested Hush, but Scroll of Fate seems to have become the enabler of choice for cheating in Noughts. My gut reaction is that I could see it being run out of the side as hate versus decks that are heavily reliant on triggers (ala Ichorid), as opposed to enabling our 12/12s. I think I'd rather see Vision Charm or Trickbind in my UW list before Hush.

[AngryBacon]

+ information is tracked over time and is "stationary"; you can literally witness this deck's evolution through the years
- while I'm not aware of any size limit on a discord post, posts relating to legitimate discussion "feel" shorter to me.


The exact same content can be provided on something like Discord. Except you would pin a post or posts and if content is more easily contributed to that way, with a Google Document or similar for reports and an actual primer. That post could very well link directly here actually. Discord is also much more accessible and available than mtgthesource.com (eg. no HTTPS here, not mobile-friendly, mentioning people is actually difficult, so is linking cards).

Though Discord is not exaclty meant to hold long posts like you mentioned, but rather links to a more adapted support eg. spreadsheets for data and statistics, plain documents for reports.



+ posts can cover multiple responses and link to older material.
- responses can be very quickly buried into irrelevance.


Yeah this can be an issue when no policing. Though across all IM tools I've been using both for hobbies and work, the rooms are supposedly self-corrected and on-topic trumps all off-topic. It gets pretty easy to keep relevant information easy to find when channels are created and reserved accordingly.


searching for specific things feels very difficult (could just be a user issue, I'm new to discord)

Yeah could be, I find it much easier to search on Discord myself ^^ Keywords do help when searching for instance.


I have no issues with lots of text that detail interactions or lines of play and I enjoy comprehensive answers behind certain lines of play or card selections. I feel like it makes me and other readers of the thread better players.

Wall of texts are fine, especially when the author takes the time to properly indent or present with the rich text available here :-) I wasn't exactly offering Discord as a way of replacing the work done here. But more as a complementary way of contributing, more approchable possibly. Easier to find help etc.



@ Hushbringer: Someone (Fox?) highlighted it's potential use (and atrocious art) when it was spoiled a few pages ago. Not sure if anyone's actively tested Hush, but Scroll of Fate seems to have become the enabler of choice for cheating in Noughts. My gut reaction is that I could see it being run out of the side as hate versus decks that are heavily reliant on triggers (ala Ichorid), as opposed to enabling our 12/12s. I think I'd rather see Vision Charm or Trickbind in my UW list before Hush.

I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.

[Rood]

@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.

On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)

On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?

I think I was trying to prevent a K command blowout. I figured he had snap or k command and i had no answer

[Fox]

Hushbringer isn't very good as it offers opponents windows of interaction. Before Scroll my deck used Tocatli and that was only b/c I had 1x Aether Vial (and E-Tutors) to create the uninteractive window that Scroll more easily replicates. If Hushbringer were hexproof (or a noncreature enchantment) I would have considered it, but even in the board it's worse than Torpor Orb (Karn wish target). I would rate Hushbringer under Jeskai Infiltrator in terms of positively advancing the engine in a reasonably reliable way. The other issue with Torpor Orb effects, in the maindeck, is that in a small subset of matches it enables opponents to steal Dreadnoughts from our top of deck [Helm] and graveyard [Reanimate].

What we're really waiting to see is a not-creature Torpor Orb that nullifies triggers from creature ETB + casting spell triggers + creature abilities cannot be activated. The leaving the battlefield trigger prevention doesn't really matter. Alternatively a Torpor Orb land would also be acceptable.

[crispymelee]

/snip discord advantages

If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.



I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.

I think if we wanted something maindeck to stop those shenanigans, Torpor Orb is probably still the go to, being the "hardest" to remove. I'm sure more experienced pilots have better answers though.

EDIT: Fox covered it already. The other things that stop ETBs are creatures, exclusively W:

Hushbringer
Hushwing Gryff
Tocatli Honor Guard

or costly: Humility

[crispymelee]

2-2 at the local tonight. Don't know exact attendance, but close to 25 people I think. Ran the same list (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/?cb=1571671624) that I did two weeks ago.

Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade (W, 2-1):
G1: On the play, we both mull to 6. Though he StP's my early Nought, a flood of 2/2s and an accompanying SCM is too much to handle, and his SFMs eat my own StP's.

+1 Pithing Needle, +1 ETutor. -1 Supreme Verdict, -1 Standstill [i](in hindsight should have added Ashiok, maybe for one of the Small Teferis)

G2: An absurd game. Early turns are land -> go, until we get into a counter war over my small Teferi. He wins out on the back of Flusterstorm, and is eventually able to control the game. He manages to stick TNN and it wields both Batterskull and Jitte, and I scoop.

G3: An early Nought once again proves to be the deciding factor, forcing an early FoW out of him. He has no counter for the Scroll, and I ride the 12/12 to victory.

Round 2 vs Mystic Forge Combo (?) (L, 0-2):
A match where knowledge was sorely lacking; I literally had never even heard of this. I lose G1, despite forcing him to break 3 Standstills. I can't find Karn to shut off his artifacts, and he's eventually able to pump out Karn first, fetching Lattice to lock me out.


+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Etutor, +2 Flusterstorm +1 EE. -2 Standstill, -2 Supreme Verdict, -1 StP [i](given all the moxes and mana ramp I saw, I thought I was playing against some kind of Storm Combo. I was very mistaken, and Grafdiggers Cage, no Flusterstorms, would have been far better).

G2: There's is an early attempt to set Chalice @ 1 that I'm able to snare, and Wasteland takes care of one of his Sol Lands. He's stuck on mana for awhile, but I can't find anything to pressure with him with; no Karn, no Teferi's, no sideboarded cards. Eventually he's able to stick Mystic Forge and find the cards he needs behind a resolved Defense Grid.

Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
G1: I'm on the play, and he answers my land -> go leads with Goblin Welder. I stick a T2 Nought. My attempt to counter his Blood Moon on T3 eats a REB (!). I get in once with Nought, but I have no answer for his Karn -> Ensnaring Bridge. We play land -> go for awhile, and no Factories or Scrolls show up. He's able to assemble Painter and Grindstone, and I'm done for.

+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare


G2: On the play once again, and it goes similarly to G1. My early Nought is stopped cold by Bridge, but this time, I'm able to find Scroll and pump out 2/2's that are able to walk over it.

G3: A wild game. I keep a hand with no counters but two StPs. I thought I baited out enough REBs from him to safely "hardcast" Nought, but he had another REB for the Stifle. He gets stuck on 2 lands, and his Welder does a whopping 9 damage to me, before I finally find an EE the turn he drops a second one. They both get blown away and when he tries to drop Painter, I'm ready for it with StP. He sneaks in Grindstone after I stick a Scroll, but can't keep Painter alive long enough to activate it. Once again, a beatdown of Bears takes the day.

Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.

+ Scroll is awesome
+ flipping 12/12s off of Manifest is awesome
+ Watching opponents sweat over which Manifest to remove is hilarious
+ Finding a place to play Legacy <20 minutes away
+ Legacy weirdness. Doomsday and Mystic Forge in one night is hilarious.
+ Paper Legacy
- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.
- Play mistakes. Today I felt I played better, but little mistakes eventually ended up being extremely costly (forgetting Batterskull has vigilance, forgetting PW abilities can be Stifled)

[AngryBacon]

If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.


I didn't create any server no, that privilege would be yours plural. I can definitely agree that familiarity is an argument though ;-) My job makes me value practicality and progress a little more I suppose ^^.

About Hushbringer, Torpor Orb is also fine. But Deafening Silence isn't automatically better than Ethersworn Canonist in Death and Taxes for instance. Because of the clock it provides. If I were playing white, I'd at least split between the 2 if I had the room for them plural. Hushbringer forces you to play around Massacre though, which is added stress.

[AngryBacon]

Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare


I wouldn't side out Spell Snare, it stops Goblin Engineer, Painter's Servant, Goblin Cratermaker, Ethersworn Canonist and the copter as well if they play it.


Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.


From what you say (Liliana, Jace) it doesn't look like a typical list but more of a slower approach. Closer to how it used to be long ago. Now the better list is UBR with Experimental Frenzy with either Tendrils of Agony or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. If you look at my post history you might find a (very old and janky) Doomstill list ;-) But if you want more information on the deck and how to play it/against it, I can provide a link to the Doomsday Discord.

With your list I think I would have sided in

+1 Ashiok, Dream Render (stops fetchlands, prevents Doomsday from searching the library, prevents Doomsday to reuse cards that may have been played pre-combo)
+1 Engineered Explosives (handles his anti-hate and goblins if they play Empty the Warrens)
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Flusterstorm (for the discard mostly)
-2 Supreme Verdict
-4 Swords to Plowshares

I'm also assuming they don't win off Tasigur or Laboratory Maniac.


- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.

It also stops Doomsday ;-)

[Fox]

Against Stoneblade, Needle isn't really a card your deck needs to bring in. I think I'd be fine with just 1x Ashiok in (wiping their yard is usually necessary). Definitely would not cut any Teferi vs them, as you need option to knock out walkers with Factory & EoT Scroll activations; also need to be able to put them on sorcery speed C. Priests.

When you say Mystic Forge combo you do mean the turbo deck with Monolith + Voltaic Key, and no wincons in the deck right? Assuming it is, I like the boarding after you correct the Flusters. Leaving in an amount of Plow is fine (maybe 2). Their deck should pretty much die on the spot to Dreadnought early, and completely locked out by a Karn; sounds like you got unlucky.

Boarding looks fine vs Painter, but Ashiok should come in here as well to stop all the graveyard stuff. Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.

Lots of good matchups for you today, 3/4 opponents' decks playing loses to Karn tribal (on top of being weak to Nought).

[Mr. Safety]

I'm debating a Narset, Parter of Veils in my 75. Does anyone have any experience for how good she is? (Disclaimer: I'm on mono-blue.)

[AngryBacon]

Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.


That's the thing, I don't think that's DDFT nor DDEF. Cage will only be useful against Experimental Frenzy. Difficult to know without their list I suppose. Spell Snare hits Burning Wish, Wishclaw Talisman, Lim-Dul's Vault depending on the version but also the removal they might side against your hate.

[Fox]

Eh, you can leave in Snare but you’ve already got 12 counters DDFT has to get through (and then the SCMs his build plays). If they’re not on Frenzy, then you’d want Snare over Cage yes.

[crispymelee]

Thanks everyone (Bacon, Fox) for the feedback. Yea, I feel like I missed a golden opportunity to at least go 3-1 at a meta where I had 0 clue what to expect.

@ Fox: It was the turbo variant. I always try to avoid saying "bad luck" since it gets me away from more practical thinking like, "what should I have countered instead?"...but yea, it was awful luck :laugh:

@ DD: He won both games off of Shelldock resolving a Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. G1 he caught me with my pants down not having a counter for Doomsday. G2, was an interesting end. He managed to play around a Standstill with only two cards left in his library, while I couldn't find anything to break my own Standstill with.

These L's hurt, but it's also teaching me a lot about how to pilot the UW variant. I'm starting to see that when games go long or draws are "unlucky", something like Azcanta seriously reduces variance and finds answers. Next week, I'll probably cut the Mana Leak for Azcanta (even though it shined once again this week), and get a Serenity in the sideboard.

[Rood]

Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD

[Mr. Safety]

Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD

Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.

2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory

[Rood]

Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.

2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory

Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better could shave an Island or snag.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better

It sometimes takes a couple turns to make him active against some decks. Others, like RUG Delver for example, hit threshold on their own pretty quickly. That's why I cut down to 2 copies. You're echoing a thought that has been rattling around in my head for weeks though: it's probably wrong to cut Delver in any version of Dreadstill, even mono-blue, until a better option comes along.

Delver list:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory

I cut the Gargoyles and shaved a Pierce and an Island (21 lands) to get the 4 delvers in there. There's 23 cards in there to flip Delver, which feels low. I want to cut a Standstill for a Ponder, but I saw how good they were in your test games!

Edit: I could cut a Scroll as well for the Ponder. I feel like it has to be a non-instant/sorcery card to help flip Delver naturally.

[Rood]

Thats pretty close to what im on but with lightning bolts and no 21 land or narset. I have Leylines in the board RN cuz there’s 4 Hogaak at my local meta.

[Mr. Safety]

That's what I'll plan on using then, it seems solid.

Now while I have your attention...what do you think of this spicy curry?

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Expedition Map
3x Dismember

4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Dark Depths
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
3x Wasteland


This deck can make a 20/20 while under a Standstill and still play a disruptive game plan. It foregoes Delver for Expedition Map, cuts Dazes (can't afford to get behind in land drops) and does a pretty good impression of Dreadstill. Why bother with a 3/2 flyer when you can have a 20/20 flyer?

[sco0ter]

Expedition Map

Isn't Tolaria West more flexible, while it also works under Standstill and is uncounterable? Could also find Engineered Explosives or other X spells.

[Michael Keller]

That's what I'll plan on using then, it seems solid.

Now while I have your attention...what do you think of this spicy curry?

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Expedition Map
3x Dismember

4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Dark Depths
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
3x Wasteland


This deck can make a 20/20 while under a Standstill and still play a disruptive game plan. It foregoes Delver for Expedition Map, cuts Dazes (can't afford to get behind in land drops) and does a pretty good impression of Dreadstill. Why bother with a 3/2 flyer when you can have a 20/20 flyer?

No. You’re all over the place. Stuffing that package in doesn’t seem good.

[Mr. Safety]

No. You’re all over the place. Stuffing that package in doesn’t seem good.

I was thinking it was pretty straightforward. Make a 12/12 and protect it or make a 20/20 and protect it. I think you're right, it just seems like so much fun!

[crispymelee]

Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for.

Blessed by Roodgod himself. Going 4-0 next local confirmed :cool:

@ DD, the more relevant one: That's an interesting idea. However. I feel like it pushes Dreadstill away from its greatest strength, which is its redundancy and commitment to a unified game plan; ideally everything in the list synergizes or at least supports everything else, either directly (Bolts on top of Nought which flip Delver) or indirectly (Small Teferi slowing the game down or enabling 1-way Standstills and additional draw, or Karn disabling problem artifacts and wishing for silver bullets).

The DD package takes away either:
- Factories which make Standstill asymmetrical in our favor or
- Wastelands which help tempo do its thing and control restrict opponent's resources.
- Increases our vulnerability to non-basic hate, which is something the deck is relatively good at handling I feel.

While also pushing us towards cards that really don't do much to help everything else on the list, like ExMap.

That being said, test it and let us know how it goes, cause it IS a pretty cool idea.

EDIT:
I was thinking it was pretty straightforward. Make a 12/12 and protect it or make a 20/20 and protect it. I think you're right, it just seems like so much fun!

I think the issue may be that statement right there. It splits our gameplan and then when we commit to one or the other, the cards related to the other strategy become less helpful. But I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong on this. :smile:

[Fox]

The issue is that you're going off in two completely different directions with tools that don't interact favorably. Both of your threats would each require 2-for-1s to create, and this isn't sustainable. Even if your threats were 1-card combos, we kind of already know that this doesn't work in legacy. Just look back at RUG Delver before Wrenn; the plan was dude into completely-unrelated dude into another unrelated dude. The only unifying thing between Delver, Goose, and Goyf is that they were efficient, but these were all essentially random 1-card combos (most creatures are, and are selected solely for an efficient rate or value). This hasn't worked for a number of years, until they were able to abandon the dude plan [if it wasn't working] and move all their eggs into the Wrenn basket.

So Dreadnought + Depths is certainly very different, but they both die to the same thing. You've got piece A + B and then C + D, and you're never going to overcome the variance of drawing piece A *or* B + C *or* D when both are trading off into a 1 mana kill spell. While all that is going on, you still have to be able to create boardstates where you can actually play Standstill. None of your tech is uniting these plans with interchangeable pieces outside of the very loose idea that you can make a 20/20 while Standstill is in play.

@crispymelee it's bad luck in the sense that those three decks can auto-lose, on the spot, to your strategy. They will always be behind the 8-ball, while your job is just to keep them behind that 8-ball, as they have to proactively have to try and aggro you out with whatever their deck's strategy is. What you counter definitely matters, particularly since you have multiple paths to victory against them. There's no easy answer, you have to look at your hand's plan, odds of drawing X plan off the top, how their deck works, and how modifying your sequence of forward velocity generation will cripple their strategy the most. The largest mistakes generally made in Dreadnought decks are misreading a situation and then wasting cards (making a Nought, SCM flashing back a meaningless Brainstorm, countering a pointless cantrip or another card that doesn't really matter, etc...). Against TurboKarn you ask whether or not [depends on hand] you can avoid countering any x=1 Chalice. The only card they have that matters is Karn b/c it's their only wincon; sometimes though Bridge will matter or Forge will matter. Even with Forge the only thing I really care about is the speed at which they can either find more Karns than I have counters, or can drop a Chalice x=5 to resolve a Karn. These decisions get easier once you have the tools to accurately assess and up-regulate their rate of life loss. After all that, there are still some games your hand is supposed to go after their mana rocks.

On Doomsday, your opponent is fairly suicidal if they're trying to win with an ETB-tapped Wasteland target which also needs to resolve the whole trigger that looks for something to hide. If they get through all that, then they have to resolve the activated ability. It gets worse for them: I don't even think they can even cast a spell off a hideaway land vs a Teferi onboard.

[crispymelee]

@crispymelee /analysis

On Doomsday, your opponent is fairly suicidal if they're trying to win with an ETB-tapped Wasteland target which also needs to resolve the whole trigger that looks for something to hide. If they get through all that, then they have to resolve the activated ability. It gets worse for them: I don't even think they can even cast a spell off a hideaway land vs a Teferi onboard.

Totally agree with the analysis and thanks for the insight. Each of these games has been a lot of learning. It's like I tell my students/players, "you should learn more from losses than wins". My tools to asses the game state are still rusty :tongue:

I hadn't considered that interaction. Just checked via " chat.magicjudges.org ", and yea, my opponent shouldn't have been able to cast the Jace in the 3rd game. :( #themoreyouknow

[Mr. Safety]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory

One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.

[sco0ter]

The issue is that you're going off in two completely different directions with tools that don't interact favorably. Both of your threats would each require 2-for-1s to create, and this isn't sustainable. Even if your threats were 1-card combos, we kind of already know that this doesn't work in legacy. Just look back at RUG Delver before Wrenn; the plan was dude into completely-unrelated dude into another unrelated dude. The only unifying thing between Delver, Goose, and Goyf is that they were efficient, but these were all essentially random 1-card combos (most creatures are, and are selected solely for an efficient rate or value). This hasn't worked for a number of years, until they were able to abandon the dude plan [if it wasn't working] and move all their eggs into the Wrenn basket.


hm, but there have been such hybrid combo decks before:
Like
Bomberman + Painter/Grindstone hybrid (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1121&d=209760&f=LE).
Reanimator Depths (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23251&d=359993&f=LE)
Tinfins Depths (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20237&d=332083&f=LE)

Granted, at least the Tinfins variant attacks with completely different strategies.

And you are saying that the Delver, Goose, Goyf plan in Canadia Threshold hasn't work for years? :eyebrow:
I remember this deck being viable with this strategy even 10 years ago.

[AngryBacon]

Bomberman + Painter/Grindstone hybrid (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1121&d=209760&f=LE).
Reanimator Depths (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23251&d=359993&f=LE)
Tinfins Depths
(https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20237&d=332083&f=LE)


They can Entomb for Vampire and have high redundancy with the reanimation spells ie. Cast Vampire, countered. Exhume it back, or Shallow Grave it back at instant speed. Living Wish glues both halves together as well. Exactly like how Karn glues both Bomberman and Painter halves together. Both combo don't die to the same hate either. For instance Bomberman dies to Chalice (granted solved with Karn) but Grindstone ignores it. Both halves might die to StP though, but Karn can get a servant back.

I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.

[Mr. Safety]

They can Entomb for Vampire and have high redundancy with the reanimation spells ie. Cast Vampire, countered. Exhume it back, or Shallow Grave it back at instant speed. Living Wish glues both halves together as well. Exactly like how Karn glues both Bomberman and Painter halves together. Both combo don't die to the same hate either. For instance Bomberman dies to Chalice (granted solved with Karn) but Grindstone ignores it. Both halves might die to StP though, but Karn can get a servant back.

I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.

I tend to agree; there isn't any real overlap with the cards that support Dreadnought/Depths. Cards have only one use rather than supporting both plans.

[H]

I tend to agree; there isn't any real overlap with the cards that support Dreadnought/Depths. Cards have only one use rather than supporting both plans.

Not only that, but another reason to put Depths and ReAnimator together, for example, is that Graveyard hate does nothing to stop the Depths plan and the same in the Bomberman case, where Gravehate does nothing to stop Grindstone.

Here, if you make a 12/12 or a 20/20, StP defeats either. The only "advantage" is see here is the fact that Scroll could give you Edict-protection, but that is hardly a big thing.

[AngryBacon]

On the other hand, Dark Depths makes a go-big impression of Mishra's Factory under Standstill. It's definitely 3 cards I've considered together as a way of forcing a reaction from the opponent (possibly drawing permission off Standstill) but I didn't initially thought of Dreadstill as a shell for it. Not of this World is permission for both plans. Sadly, Vision Charm does not protect lands from Wasteland.

[sco0ter]

I think this is the kind of interactions that we should look for when brewing a Two-card Monte type of deck.

Oh, I'd love to see the old Dreadnought + Pandemonium deck again :-D

[crispymelee]

One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.

I like how that looks for a MonoU list. Best of luck on your event!

Also, keep the ideas coming. "Innovation" and "radical" ideas are just "bad" ideas that ended up working out.

@ Canadian thresh: i think that list an example of deck design that's opposite of what we're are trying to do. We're trying to win based on a list that has an effect greater than the sum of its parts. Individually, a lot of our cards aren't "great" (Standstill, Dreadnought), but we run stuff that has incredible synergy with them (Scroll, Factory, Wastelands, Stifle). Thresh (Mongoose + Goyf + Delver + spells) on the other hand tries to win based on the sheer quality of individual cards, that had very limited synergy.

Both can work. One is just a lot less elegant than the other :tongue:

[Tobitzki]

One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol.

List looks clean & classy, @Mr. Safety. ¡Best of luck this weekend!

I've been reunited with my Legacy cards after the summer & back on UB Stiflenought this month (Ponders no Standstills/Factories, 2 Baby Jaces & 3 MD Thoughtseize; all creature removal in the SB except for 1 Drown in the Loch and 1 Brazen Bouncer). Been doing alright after some rusty punting the first night back in action. Deck still feels legit, my play/focus can be improved. And this is the first time I get to play with Scrolls, finally: What a game changer! Weird play patterns that take some getting used to, though. W6 Delver MU feels pretty decent and as long as there's a good amount of combo around, I'm happy. If Miracles & 4CC should make some kind of comeback with Okos & Mystic Sanctuary I might well switch to Rood's Dreadstill list. (@Rood: Also great seeing you shine on the Brainstorm MtG videos: It's been hard to find good footage of recent Dreadnought action and those are just golden.)

Loving all the traffic on this thread, and it's good to see new folks coming to the archetype and engaging. (Please don't move this to Discord, level of convo here is so much better.)

[Fox]

And you are saying that the Delver, Goose, Goyf plan in Canadia Threshold hasn't work for years? :eyebrow:
I remember this deck being viable with this strategy even 10 years ago.

Their strategy has largely been unplayable since Strix/DRS [Shardless] existed at the same time as CB/SDT in UWr [miracles]. You could add on their rather questionable matchup against Grixis Delver, plus the fact that Grixis Delver had better matchups vs the rest of the field. RUG Delver is, by virtue of its strategy, a dead deck - it can only improve by WotC printing 1-card combos that are upgrades compared to what it was running. Their deck got nothing since 2012 (until Wrenn came along), and the rest of the format got better; this is what I mean by their deck being less than competitive during that time span. Playing dude into dude into dude is a recipe for failure, particularly when your 1-card combos are getting outclassed.

@Mr. Safety just get that Volc and get some Bolts in there; it's so close to complete! :cool:

[Rood]

One scroll cut to get the spell count to 24 to naturally flip Delver easier (Pierce #2 back in.) Otherwise, this is where I finally landed. Event is in 2 days, I think I'm done making changes for now, lol. Depths was just a kooky idea I wanted to feel out. Level heads here have satisfied my curiosity that it's not a good idea.

Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.

[crispymelee]

Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.

I know Misdirection can be a pseudo-counter vs other counters and have only recently noticed that Willbender can redirect Grindstone hilariously. Are there any other matchups where they would be particularly helpful? High Tide perhaps or some other combo?

[Rood]

I know Misdirection can be a pseudo-counter vs other counters and have only recently noticed that Willbender can redirect Grindstone hilariously. Are there any other matchups where they would be particularly helpful? High Tide perhaps or some other combo?

Burn is a blowout. Death Shadow they are pretty good (Fatal Push, Thoughtseize counters).

[Xod]

Care to share your UR Dreadnought build Rood?

EDIT: nvm, looked at the first page :-)

[Mr. Safety]

Looks very close to what I'm on without the bolts. GL my dude, let us know how you make out. I am on 3 Misdirection sideboard for the Depths matchups (Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn) I suggest it to you as well. It's also pretty good vs the 4c control and grixis lists.

I'm on 2 Misdirection for Depths/discard strategies sideboard along with maindeck 2x Vapor Snag and 2x sideboard Echoing Truth for Depths. You bring up a great point: what should the sideboard look like?

Here it is currently:

2x Ratchet Bomb (Death and Taxes, Goblins, Elves, basically Engineered Explosives replacement because mono-blue)
2x Sower of Temptation (Show and Tell, Eldrazi Post, Lands, Depths, mid-range Tarmogoyf decks)
2x Misdirection (Depths, Burn, Grixis/4C control, anything with discard really)
2x Blue Elemental Blast (RUG Delver, Moon Stompy, Burn, Sneak/Show)
2x Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Depths, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
2x Echoing Truth (Depths, Lands, Reanimator, Storm, Death and Taxes, Moon Stompy, Ensnaring Bridge decks, utility bounce for odd decks)
2x Pithing Needle (Depths, RUG Delver, Miracles, Lands, Reanimator, Show and Tell)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Miracles, Grixis/4C Control, Lands, grindy decks. This could be where Misdirection #3 goes, its a flex spot

@Fox: Volcanic is priority #1 for me atm. I don't have the cash for it, but I'm hoping to trade for it if possible or if I spike the event (fingers crossed) I should be well on my way to buying one.

[Rood]

I'm on 2 Misdirection for Depths/discard strategies sideboard along with maindeck 2x Vapor Snag and 2x sideboard Echoing Truth for Depths. You bring up a great point: what should the sideboard look like?

Here it is currently:

2x Ratchet Bomb (Death and Taxes, Goblins, Elves, basically Engineered Explosives replacement because mono-blue)
2x Sower of Temptation (Show and Tell, Eldrazi Post, Lands, Depths, mid-range Tarmogoyf decks)
2x Misdirection (Depths, Burn, Grixis/4C control, anything with discard really)
2x Blue Elemental Blast (RUG Delver, Moon Stompy, Burn, Sneak/Show)
2x Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Depths, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
2x Echoing Truth (Depths, Lands, Reanimator, Storm, Death and Taxes, Moon Stompy, Ensnaring Bridge decks, utility bounce for odd decks)
2x Pithing Needle (Depths, RUG Delver, Miracles, Lands, Reanimator, Show and Tell)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Miracles, Grixis/4C Control, Lands, grindy decks. This could be where Misdirection #3 goes, its a flex spot

@Fox: Volcanic is priority #1 for me atm. I don't have the cash for it, but I'm hoping to trade for it if possible or if I spike the event (fingers crossed) I should be well on my way to buying one.

I'd shave a needle and a blue blast for the 3rd Misdirection effect and an extra copy of Surgical or Cage (Matchups are kinda hard.)

[Mr. Safety]

I'd shave a needle and a blue blast for the 3rd Misdirection effect and an extra copy of Surgical or Cage (Matchups are kinda hard.)

I ended up cutting the Jace for the 3rd Misdirection, will cut a Needle for Cage.

Also: i've been watching your older games with Steam Vents...do you think the bolts are worth the lifeless? I could play a list with 2x vents and switch over to Scalding Tarns, if you think its worth the risk. I have the red cards for the sideboard (pyroblast, abrade.)

[KobeBryan]

fuck the needle....this is a combo deck, stop being slow and drop both needles. What are you scared of anyways? Griselbrand? Jace? teferi?

Just counter and blast those things.

[Mr. Safety]

fuck the needle....this is a combo deck, stop being slow and drop both needles. What are you scared of anyways? Griselbrand? Jace? teferi?

Just counter and blast those things.

Lol, ok. A resolved Jace/teferi is brutal against Dreadnought, especially if i spent a stifle to do it. I think Needle is worth its slot. If needle deals with the pw my countermagic can be used elsewhwere.

What would you suggest to replace the needles?

[Fox]

Lol, ok. A resolved Jace/teferi is brutal against Dreadnought, especially if i spent a stifle to do it. I think Needle is worth its slot. If needle deals with the pw my countermagic can be used elsewhwere.

What would you suggest to replace the needles?

Solve the problem with your fists: Cursed Scroll! :cool:

[KobeBryan]

Solve the problem with your fists: Cursed Scroll! :cool:

Yup. Pound his face in

[colo]

Three rounds of Legacy for me yesterday; I went 2-1: BG Turbo Depths (2-0), Mono-R Goblins (1-2 - third game was very close, with a Mulligan to 5 for both of us, and him drawing the better mix of Ringleaders and Piledrivers, which my Scroll of Fate couldn't keep up with sans Dreadnoughts), Dredge (2-1). I dropped Vantress Gargoyles for Brazen Borrowers, which is the shit - and I mean in a good way 8)

[crispymelee]

Three rounds of Legacy for me yesterday; I went 2-1: BG Turbo Depths (2-0), Mono-R Goblins (1-2 - third game was very close, with a Mulligan to 5 for both of us, and him drawing the better mix of Ringleaders and Piledrivers, which my Scroll of Fate couldn't keep up with sans Dreadnoughts), Dredge (2-1). I dropped Vantress Gargoyles for Brazen Borrowers, which is the shit - and I mean in a good way 8)

Nice work! Was this with the list that had Counterbalance in it?

Also, nice win vs. Dredge. Any particular things to note for that match?

[Fox]

Also, nice win vs. Dredge. Any particular things to note for that match?

On the mechanical finesse side:
-Stifle is fairly backbreaking for them against Cephalid and Narco
-Suicide Noughts murder Bridges
-If on Factory, self-Waste can exile bridges
-If playing Surgical, hold up Stifle for Wraith cycling
-Surgical target optimization is usually one of three things. 1) hit single dredger. 2) Hit Ichorid +/- Narco as well. 3) hit Bridge.

As a very loose rule, it is generally better to counter LED than non-Breakthrough looting spells. That rule will change fairly significantly based on your hand's plan, and whether or not you have FoN for Faithless. I myself rarely counter draw 2 discard 2 effects. If you opt to let LED resolve (and don't have FoN), you're likely better off countering the back end of Looting if they've left LED uncracked. There's not really hard and fast rules vs Dredge b/c you're weighing two decks tempo statuses to decide on how to spend resources.

[colo]

Nice work! Was this with the list that had Counterbalance in it?

Also, nice win vs. Dredge. Any particular things to note for that match?

Yes, that is my otherwise unchanged list with 4x Counterbalance. I only had it on board twice yesterday, and it wasn't game-deciding then.

Dredge wasn't very exciting - opponent won game one on turn 1 (I was on the play and conceded with an Island on board). He had Gemstone Mine, LED, LED, Grave Troll, another Dredger, and a Breakthrough in their starting hand, which was too much for my single Daze to handle. Post-sideboard, I won by countering his key spells and interacting with Surgical Extraction, whilst in G3, I also had a Grafdigger's Cage on board. He never managed to get himself in a threatening position in either game, and Pyhrexian Dreadnoughts (one Scrolled in, once "hard-cast") walked it home quickly.

[Mr. Safety]

Not going well...5 rounds i'm 1-3 going into round 5. My losses were to Food Chain, Bomberman, and Burn (close games that ended with double fireblast in both losses.)

Ended up 1-4, lost r5 to Rug delver. Frustrating, but enlightening, day of magic.

[KobeBryan]

Not going well...5 rounds i'm 1-3 going into round 5. My losses were to Food Chain, Bomberman, and Burn (close games that ended with double fireblast in both losses.)

Ended up 1-4, lost r5 to Rug delver. Frustrating, but enlightening, day of magic.

Just luck man...counter magic and control play should have beat those 2 first decks. You just race the third deck and rug is beatable

[Fox]

2-1 today, 8 decks in the room: BUG Delver, 4c snow Wrenn & Strix, 4c snow Wrenn Oko, B/R Reanimator, Abzan NicFit (Carnage Tyrant, Archon, Meren), UW Taxes, Punishing/Blood Sun/Eldrazi, and myself on manifest destiny.

Round 1 vs BUG Delver (1-2): Game 1 lock him out with Karn; opponent concedes to Coating on Blossom -> animate Blossom -> Verdict to kill Bitterblossom + Gurmag + faerie rogue token. Game 2 navigate opponent down to 2 cards in hand and make a Nought; their hand was Goyf and Pierce, they topdeck Decay after a Nought hit, and have Pierce for Teferi preventing death to own Blossom (they win at 1 life). Game 3, just run into land issues.

Round 2 vs NicFit (2-0): Game 1 keep them on low lands (Stifle + Wasteland) into a Karn. Coating discards the Decay they have in hand, and followup Crucible locks them down onto 2 basic Forest, they concede in next few turns. Game 2 the first few turns are silent so I begin the process of wearing them down: Teferi = lose your next turn and discard Decay, Ashiok = discard Decay, Stifle a Nought in, Stifle E-Wit target Decay, and lastly Stifle Deed.

Round 3 vs B/R Reanimator (2-0): Game 1 their opening hand has Daze Angel + Looting and discard, but needs to draw into a Reanimation effect. I open with Wasteland target Badlands, and by the time they get a Grisel I have Scroll in play, which makes a 12/12; they end up dying to Karakas + 12 dmg. Game 2 they have another slower hand end up playing draw-go (with some discard) into a turn 3 Ashiok (discards Decay) into a turn 4 Karn. Karn grabs Ethersworn (Ashiok hit a Massacre), but opponent has found Massacre #2. Second wish is for Liquimetal, and through it opponent is able to bin an Ashen Rider with Therapy, but runs out of mana (Karn vs Petal, Karn vs Coating'd Bayou). I'm going to stop here and tell you the situation to see if you can find the winning line:

Opponent life: 14
Opponent hand: Reanimate, Animate Dead, Lotus Petal, Elesh Norn
Opponent board: Swamp, Bayou, Petal
Opponent yard: no Looting, 1x Ashen Rider (no other duders), 1x Therapy

Edit: above is what opponent is passing with. below is what you've drawn & untapped with. It's your turn now, find the win.

My life: doesn't matter (probably around 18)
My hand: Plow x3, Dreadnought, Snare
My board: 5 lands (2 of these are not summoning sick Factory, other lands are Plains, Island, and Tundra), Karn (2 Loyalty), Coating
SB wish targets: Torpor Orb, Ratchet & Keg, Cursed Scroll, Crucible (no Waste in yard)

I really enjoy the thinking UW makes you do; as the record implies, the opponent conceded the next turn.

Side note: in case you were wondering - yes, the BUG Delver pilot did run into Plague Engineer at the top table; and yes, TNN and Blossom are Rogues.

[crispymelee]

Not going well...5 rounds i'm 1-3 going into round 5. My losses were to Food Chain, Bomberman, and Burn (close games that ended with double fireblast in both losses.)

Ended up 1-4, lost r5 to Rug delver. Frustrating, but enlightening, day of magic.

Bummer man. Always next time.


/puzzle

Assuming this puzzle starts after your draw, and I didn't know what my Reanimator opponent's hand of 4 was, I'd probably go:
1. Let Karn die, fetching Torpor Orb
2. Play Orb, nullifying the Rider I know about and enabling Nought.
3. Play Nought, leaving up Plains and Tundra.

My reasoning:
- I have Snare + 3x Swords. If they Reanimate Rider (14 -> 6 life), I don't care bc I can run him over with trample for 7 and he dies.
- If they go for Reanimate Dead to avoid paying life, I have Snare.
- They have four mana next turn, but I feel confidant with 3 swords. Even Entomb -> Iona on W, they go down to 5 and Nought still runs them over.

EDIT: 4 mana up, worse-case scenario. This is based on old knowledge of Reanimator so I'm not really up to date on popular targets/supporting cards they run.

No idea how sound or poor my logic is, just what I would do.

[Fox]

Some things to consider is that you have 3 Plow and they have Therapy in yard; but an Ashen Rider would make a trigger giving you a window to Plow. If all this happens you would lose Karn to the trigger, which would unlock their Petal in play and in hand. Also, Karn would also have killed himself to going -2 at 2 loyalty. :tongue:

The winning line has more to do with turning every card in their deck into a dead draw. The issue with Torpor Orb is that they could topdeck a kill spell for Nought, then steal it for 1 life. You do have Plows and you should be fine, but you would have given them much more time. If you know their maindeck and allow for them to draw any sideboard card they might regularly run (or draw any card of their maindeck) - there is a line there that beats anything they could realistically draw.

Their dead topdecks include: Dark Rit, artifacts, any card with a color req not green or black, any land, Entomb, any Reanimate effect (1 or 2 mana), any fatty, and any discard [so like, their entire maindeck]. Among SB cards, they could draw, cast *& resolve* include: Decay or Rev Silence, Coffin Purge, Surgical, Massacre [which means they'd be playing 3 in the board, highly unlikely]...and that's pretty much the entire list of possible. The best line doesn't care about any of these off the top.

[Mr. Safety]

Just luck man...counter magic and control play should have beat those 2 first decks. You just race the third deck and rug is beatable

I was unfamiliar with Food Chain, which likely led to my losses. He was playing Astrolabe and mostly basics, which left my Wastelands stranded. He was also a great player, putting me in spots where i coudn't counter all the key spells and i didn't have enough pressure.

Bomberman was for real a tough deck. It had both Cavern of Souls and Chalice. I squeeked out one game due to Force-ing a Chalice and getting a t2 Dreadnought. The other games ended with an uncounterable Salvagers and a win on the spot with LED.

Burn games were close. I won one game easily, the other two were super close. I made a big mistake by not blocking a Goblin Guide while i was on 12 life. I had Dreadnought, a win on the following turn, and an unflipped delver that i really didn't need. Bolts would have really shined in this matchup to relieve creature pressure in case i can't combo.

Fun day, learned a ton (i'm not usually a blue player, and it showed lol), and i'll work towards getting the Volcanic.

My list changed at the last minute: i dropped Echoing Truth for Brazen Borrower in the board (very good card, possibly maindeckable in mono-blue.) Then i dropped the Needle for Jace. Scroll of Fate was incredible, easily the best enabler for dreadnought and added pressure.

[Tobitzki]

Opponent life: 14
Opponent hand: Reanimate, Animate Dead, Lotus Petal, Elesh Norn
Opponent board: Swamp, Bayou, Petal
Opponent yard: no Looting, 1x Ashen Rider (no other duders), 1x Therapy

My life: doesn't matter (probably around 18)
My hand: Plow x3, Dreadnought, Snare
My board: 5 lands (2 of these are not summoning sick Factory, other lands are Plains, Island, and Tundra), Karn (2 Loyalty), Coating
SB wish targets: Torpor Orb, Ratchet & Keg, Cursed Scroll, Crucible (no Waste in yard)



I'd probably turn Karn into a 4/4 here (Coating & +1 on himself) and swing for 8 w/ Karn & the Factories, turning off Reanimate while holding up Snare for any other reanimation spell. They'd need both access to a second Animate Dead/Exhume AND 4 mana to cast them to avoid dying to my next attack. If they draw Abrupt Decay they can kill only the Coating and get to live for another round, still with no outs (I could Wish for Cursed Scroll instead of attacking with Karn in that case, but it doesn't even matter)

[Fox]

I'd probably turn Karn into a 4/4 here (Coating & +1 on himself) and swing for 8 w/ Karn & the Factories, turning off Reanimate while holding up Snare for any other reanimation spell. They'd need both access to a second Animate Dead/Exhume AND 4 mana to cast them to avoid dying to my next attack. If they draw Abrupt Decay they can kill only the Coating and get to live for another round, still with no outs (I could Wish for Cursed Scroll instead of attacking with Karn in that case, but it doesn't even matter)

Well done! :cool:

The most important things in that scenario are their life total, the cmc of Ashen Rider [Reanimate], and Karn shutting them off mana.

[crispymelee]

I'd probably turn Karn into a 4/4 here (Coating & +1 on himself) and swing for 8 w/ Karn & the Factories, turning off Reanimate while holding up Snare for any other reanimation spell. They'd need both access to a second Animate Dead/Exhume AND 4 mana to cast them to avoid dying to my next attack. If they draw Abrupt Decay they can kill only the Coating and get to live for another round, still with no outs (I could Wish for Cursed Scroll instead of attacking with Karn in that case, but it doesn't even matter)

Dang, nice. Was hoping no one else would have answered and I just pm'd Fox before checking here in case someone did. My PM had me swinging in for 6 with double Factory and Coating; I didn't take into account I could Coat Karn and get a 4/4 instead of another 2/2 with Liquimetal.

That being said against Miracles last week, I DID use Coating on an opposing JtMS to shut him down with my Karn in play and that was pretty funny.



EDIT:

I was unfamiliar with Food Chain, which likely led to my losses. He was playing Astrolabe and mostly basics, which left my Wastelands stranded. He was also a great player, putting me in spots where i coudn't counter all the key spells and i didn't have enough pressure.

Bomberman was for real a tough deck. It had both Cavern of Souls and Chalice. I squeeked out one game due to Force-ing a Chalice and getting a t2 Dreadnought. The other games ended with an uncounterable Salvagers and a win on the spot with LED.

Burn games were close. I won one game easily, the other two were super close. I made a big mistake by not blocking a Goblin Guide while i was on 12 life. I had Dreadnought, a win on the following turn, and an unflipped delver that i really didn't need. Bolts would have really shined in this matchup to relieve creature pressure in case i can't combo.

Fun day, learned a ton (i'm not usually a blue player, and it showed lol), and i'll work towards getting the Volcanic.

My list changed at the last minute: i dropped Echoing Truth for Brazen Borrower in the board (very good card, possibly maindeckable in mono-blue.) Then i dropped the Needle for Jace. Scroll of Fate was incredible, easily the best enabler for dreadnought and added pressure.


- Haven't played against Food Chain, so I can't comment much on that. Feels like Doomsday in the sense that if they can't get FC going, it doesn't seem like they can get much going but that's just my gut reaction. Borrower looks like it'd be nice here to bounce FC, as would Spell Snare for Manipulate Fate/Return to Nature.
- vs. Bomberman, Fox had some great advice on how to play around their shenanigans here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8964-Deck-Dreadstill-Enter-the-Fist&p=1076656&viewfull=1#post1076656), though from the perspective of UW. Wasting their Caverns, Engineered Explosives for Chalice, Needle on Ballista, and Negation on LED all look strong here.
- vs. Burn, it feels like you want to mull for a "hardcast" Nought if you're on MonoU since you have no Bolts or StP on Nought to slow them down. They'll more or less need the nuts to race your T2 Nought, and that's without you countering critical Fireblasts and such.

Glad you're able to view all the matches as learning experience :)

[Mr. Safety]

Thats all great advice, but variance can really mess that up. I can't have everything all the time. I think Ponder maindeck, Standstill sideboard might be the correct path for mono-blue. The hate is much more specific so i need cheap ways to find it.

In a lot of games i was thinking: my kingdom for a Brainstorm! Playing only 4 cantrips just seems incorrect.

[Fox]

In a lot of games i was thinking: my kingdom for a Brainstorm! Playing only 4 cantrips just seems incorrect.

When every card combos with every other card in your deck, you have less need for Ponder. The issue with mono-U remains that it's not a functioning deck if the opponent can either lock-out Scroll or remove Dreadnought (either from the deck or from being relevant); building up <<< building sideways. Cantripping deliberately towards either of those two opens up loss to Narset/Leo, and there is no compensation in terms of alternate play patterns unlocked.

[Mr. Safety]

When every card combos with every other card in your deck, you have less need for Ponder. The issue with mono-U remains that it's not a functioning deck if the opponent can either lock-out Scroll or remove Dreadnought (either from the deck or from being relevant); building up <<< building sideways. Cantripping deliberately towards either of those two opens up loss to Narset/Leo, and there is no compensation in terms of alternate play patterns unlocked.

Isn't building up Standstill and Ponder sideways? I don't understand your point.

Also, i think relying too much on synergy opens you up to bigger variance. Ponder would go a long ways towards reducing variance.

I'm not worried about Narser or Leovold, and Standstill suffers the same problem but with even more conditions.

[Fox]

With mono-U it's about realizing the wincon is Scroll then Dreadnought; in some games the 'hardcast' and protect the queen plan is fine ofc. You're never really accounting for not having Scroll into they dealt with the hardcast Nought, and now you're down on cards which you can't recover. Ponder lets you double down re-finding this plan, but it's probably not going to work the second time if it didn't work the first time; with every following Nought, the hand shrinks and it becomes quite easy for the opponent to predict what you're capable of, and more importantly, what your tempo is.

In my build Teferi works by himself, he makes Scroll/Nought better, he makes manlands [and by extension, Standstill] better. Standstill changes the tempo rules of the game and it covers the card disadvantage of Nought. Nought injects absurd amounts of tempo-warping into this shell and maximizes ability to exploit moments of weakness (which are potentially massive windows if Teferi is around). None of these things have to come together in a set sequence, nor is there only one endgame. All these gears grind in the same direction: destabilizing a game of legacy away from normal legacy tempo until the opponent's deck breaks, lacking the tools to operate at non-linear speed. Stifle and Wasteland dump more fuel on the tempo fire, you get the wrath reset button, and then Karn comes in to redefine the rules of the game and warp card evaluation. Now I could play Ponder, but everything is already doing the same thing, and I don't really care about linearly pursuing a proactive plan so much as derailing the opponent's plan in the most damaging sequence.

Ponder definitely helps set mana up early on, but it doesn't threaten to increase power - the only way it really pays off is if you find a PW or a card that can end the game (like SnT). Your mono-U list has plenty of mana security already, so given how all-in you are on Dreadnought connections, something like Portent target them burying Decay is a far more potent effect than Ponder can grant (and it draws through Narset/Leo). Without Bolt/Standstill it is much more difficult to dictate how opponents must play at points in the game of your choosing.

[Mr. Safety]

With mono-U it's about realizing the wincon is Scroll then Dreadnought; in some games the 'hardcast' and protect the queen plan is fine ofc. You're never really accounting for not having Scroll into they dealt with the hardcast Nought, and now you're down on cards which you can't recover. Ponder lets you double down re-finding this plan, but it's probably not going to work the second time if it didn't work the first time; with every following Nought, the hand shrinks and it becomes quite easy for the opponent to predict what you're capable of, and more importantly, what your tempo is.

In my build Teferi works by himself, he makes Scroll/Nought better, he makes manlands [and by extension, Standstill] better. Standstill changes the tempo rules of the game and it covers the card disadvantage of Nought. Nought injects absurd amounts of tempo-warping into this shell and maximizes ability to exploit moments of weakness (which are potentially massive windows if Teferi is around). None of these things have to come together in a set sequence, nor is there only one endgame. All these gears grind in the same direction: destabilizing a game of legacy away from normal legacy tempo until the opponent's deck breaks, lacking the tools to operate at non-linear speed. Stifle and Wasteland dump more fuel on the tempo fire, you get the wrath reset button, and then Karn comes in to redefine the rules of the game and warp card evaluation. Now I could play Ponder, but everything is already doing the same thing, and I don't really care about linearly pursuing a proactive plan so much as derailing the opponent's plan in the most damaging sequence.

Ponder definitely helps set mana up early on, but it doesn't threaten to increase power - the only way it really pays off is if you find a PW or a card that can end the game (like SnT). Your mono-U list has plenty of mana security already, so given how all-in you are on Dreadnought connections, something like Portent target them burying Decay is a far more potent effect than Ponder can grant (and it draws through Narset/Leo). Without Bolt/Standstill it is much more difficult to dictate how opponents must play at points in the game of your choosing.

I was looking at Ponder from the other side of the coin. I'm not using it as a way to 're-find' the combo, I would be using it as a way to craft the correct hand to play + protect a threat (Scroll, Dreadnought, Delver) just like any other tempo deck. In games I had the nuts, well, I had the nuts. Those are easy games to pilot. Games where variance was a big issue could have been made significantly better, percentage-wise, with Ponder.

I'm not all-in on Dreadnought connecting, although that is certainly the fastest way to win. I would rather start with a t1 Delver and a fistful of counterspells, honestly. What I really missed, truly, was hard removal that didn't cost me life (Bolt, Fatal Push, StP, etc. instead of Dismember.) I also ran into card shortages (as you say) that weren't recovered by Standstill (which is lousy when behind.)

Also, don't forget, I certainly made misplays that I didn't recognize as such. Ponder is a less skill-testing card than Standstill, which may help me learn how to play blue before diving into the deep end of this unique deck. I also read comments like 'just pound their face in, you're a combo deck' which supports the idea of just playing Ponder to craft threat + protection. Others, like Rood, have said that Standstill without hard removal gets significantly worse.

So long story short, I'm going to try Ponder for a little while with 3x Standstill in the sideboard. Standstill breaks open the blue matchups but tends to be a distraction from threat + protect plan.

4x Delver
4x Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
2x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Force of Negation
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
2x Vapor Snag
2x Dismember
7x Fetch
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Standstill
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Misdirection

[Tobitzki]

4x Delver
4x Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
2x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Force of Negation
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
2x Vapor Snag
2x Dismember
7x Fetch
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Standstill
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Misdirection

@Mr. Safety I totally feel you re: Ponder. This was basically my experience earlier this year when I made the switch from U(b) Stiflenought to Rood's classic list (give or take a few cards). I had just gotten comfortable playing the blue tempo shell (and make no mistake: BS and Ponder are by no means easy cards to play optimally) and swapping Ponders for Standstills felt like kicking off the training wheels but then blindfolding yourself on top of it. I also felt that Standstill exacerbated the already-egregious play/draw dependence in a tempo-heavy format. I think by now I'd be more confident piloting Dreadstill, but I just have a ton of respect for its extremely variable role-assignment between tempo/control/combo. So if you're still just learning how to play blue, starting out with Standstill is ambitious to say the least. (but by all means, go for it if you're cool with losing a lot at first. It's a steep learning curve.)

Meanwhile, a couple of notes on your updated list:

Quick one: threat curve 4 | 4 | 6 (Delver; hardcast PDs; Scrolls + Bounce Faerie) calls for a 19th land.

The other thing is that I can't help feeling that Mono-U is a slightly yet strictly worse Ponder list than a red or especially black splash would offer. My own UB list is really close to yours at this point, just that I have access to better removal (currently 2 F Push & 1 T Scorn out of the side, plus the super-flexible Drown in the Loch as a 1-of in the main [@Fox is right: we can't really afford potentially dead cards G1]; Plague Engineer would be another consideration) and MD discard, which is amazing for the information; while remaining fully Wasteland-proof. (Think of the evolution of Mono-U Omniscience decks that all started splashing a secondary color at some point cuz it essentially comes at no drawback)

So if I wanted to stick with mono-U and Ponder, I'd look for different avenues towards leveraging that as an advantage. First thing comes to mind would be a Counterbalance + Mystic Sanctuary Package, for example. The other route would be leaning heavier on Scroll shenanigans with Stratus Dancers, Vision Charms, Vantress Gargoyles, but I'm unsure what the right mix would be there.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response, I also agree that play/draw is a huge factor. As far as Ub Stifle-Nought, I'm tinkering with Death's Shadow. It's another big beater (which is what I want!) but also has access to discard and good removal. Standstill wouldn't be part of that equation, it would have to be BStorm/Ponder/Street Wraith for draw spells. I essentially shaved a few slots down to 3 to fit in the set of Stifle and replaced Gurmag/Tombstalker with 3x Dreadnought. Is it good? Probably not, but I can't help but tinker. I've been formulating a plan Shadow/Dreadnought, and it might be just bad. In theory it should be great due to having 7-8 free counterspells, 3-4 targeted discard, and a ton of cantrips/draw to smooth it out. I wouldn't be opposed to playing Standstill in the sideboard of a deck like that to shore up Grixis Control/Miracles/4C control matchups, but that remains to be seen.

Bad decks are my crack.

[Fox]

Only six decks in the room today: UW[x?] miracles, Styrfo pile~4c WrennOko [no Delver, no white, has Grove/Pfire], Gobbos, RGw Lumberjack (basically Punishing Maverick w/ Depths combo and Wrenn), another Oko-soupy deck (unsure of colors), and manifest destiny.

R1 vs Gobbos (2-1): Game 1 they have two Vials and on the draw I can't quite get Karn down followed by Verdict; could only cast 1 and no sequence was winning (meaningless to wrath into 2x Vial on 3 & 4). Game 2 I think I countered their Vial, anyways they use REBs to defend a Fetch and counter a Teferi, but Scroll comes down and Dreadnoughts overrun. Game 3 they don't have Vial and run into 3 Plows early, this is enough time to get Teferi and Karn online. A Dreadnought got a hit in before they kill it, and I follow up with Factory aggro and a Karn wish for Cursed Scroll is too much pressure on their life total to beat from behind.

R2 vs StryfoPile (1-1): Game 1 they're on the play and get a Wrenn on turn 2, and it takes them like 30 minutes to kill me as I was able to check Wrenn with Factory/Standstill and some Karn wish Cursed Scroll. Game 2 opens with 5 turns of land-go and the game quickly develops into their Oko vs Mastery of the Unseen. They turn a JVP into an elk and try to Drown in the Loch him on a later turn, but Karakas says no. After this they will get a Dack and I manifest a Dreadnought, they spam like 3 cantrips and a Dack +1 (can't steal a face-down Nought) and last-ditch Oko +1 runs into Stifle. Opponent passes with an Oko with like 8 loyalty, a Dack with 4 loyalty and 17 life. They die to a 1-shot (Dreadnought + Factory x2 + pump from Factory #3). No time for game 3 and it's only a 3-rounder so I scoop him into the 2-0 bracket. This matchup seems fine between the mana denial, their softness to yard hate, and ability to take over the game with the mix of Azcanta, Standstill, Karn, Ashiok, Teferi/Factory and Mastery. Their deck runs into issues as it taps out into a strategy that has little problem assassinating PWs; just keep Snapcaster in check and you'll be fine. Playing against 4c stuff is just tedious, but [at first glance] their mutually-assured-destruction losing 2-3x slots to Oko isn't helping out too much vs our strategy (cost them at least 1x SCM and 1x Kcomm, and this doesn't do them many favors against Karn). The printing of Oko though does really put UW Dreadstill way ahead of UW Standstill, which can't really afford to change construction vs Wrenn (Snare main, Hydro SB) and also deal with Oko.

R3 vs Lumberjack (1-2): Game 1 they do the Lumberjack into Titania thing and get 2x 5/3s in response to Plow Titania; I take a hit for 11 and then Verdict them. They never recover and Dreadnought kills them. Game 2 I think this was quite winnable but I got impatient with a Wasteland on their 1x Maze. Game 3 I get stuck on no white mana a turn too long and can't recover.

Lost all 3 die rolls again today, but 1-1-1 record is fine. Twice today opponents fired off Wasteland into Azcanta and weren't punished by finding a Stifle [had the 5th mana], which was kinda funny. JVP did better today and even took over a game, but was still often being sided. For the UR players, keep track of Oko in your meta; the more you see of him, the less you should see of Hydro which maybe makes Chandra ToD a reasonable SB option again.

[Xod]

Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.

[crispymelee]

/snip tourney report

Nice work, sounds like they were hard games.

@ UR: Do you feel that Lavaman is just the safer option to run MB as a 2x in UR builds over Chandra TOD? I like the idea of being able to build resources into bigger and bigger threats over time but that could just be the UW player in me; planning on trying out my UR list (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-dread-1/?cb=1572845707) this Tuesday since I couldn't play last week.


Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.

Great work! Love seeing the number of people picking up the archetype and trying it out.

[Rood]

Played UR Dreadstill today with 4 scroll of faith.

Went 4-1 in the Swiss, beating UB Omnitell, TES, Canadian Threshold and Mono Red Stompy and losing against an UR build. In the top4 I lost against the same Canadian Thres player where I won against in the Swiss.

Deck went great, but the losses where mostly because in those games I had to close it with a Nought, but couldn't find any and couldn't protect my delvers long enough. Fun to play, will definitely play it again.

Were u on a list close to mine? Threshold is kinda a tricky matchup...it's definitely not a slam dunk

[Fox]

@crispymelee I‘d defer to Rood on what‘s best at this time in UR. I personally prefer to run Lavamancer, but I can see why you wouldn‘t if your meta has Plague Engineer overuse (Delver/Snap/Grim all human wizard). Chandra is a card that isn‘t really a maindeck option as you‘d be too slow with Scrolls (she comes in when Dreadnoughts are worse). If you‘re looking at a maindeck walker in UR, I would think it would have to be Karn taking slots from Scroll due to its maindeck applications against LED, Astro, Vial, and Chalice.

—

A quick guide for how to assess WrennOko:
-as a loose rule there are 4 linear Gears/speeds at which they can be played. Gear 1 = RUG Delver (6x 1-drop threat, Stifle probable). Gear 2 = Grixis Delver/NBC RUG (think Dreadhorde). Gear 3 = 4c Snow WrennOko (Snapcasters). Gear 4 = Stryfo Pile (P. Fire).
-Wrenn/Oko numbers will loosely be 5, 6, 7, or 8. These numbers correlate to the Gear (i.e. Gear 1 runs 5, Gear 4 runs 8). At Gears 3 and 4 some of those 7-8 slots will be JTMS (Gear 3), or JTMS/Dack (Gear 4).

Once you have identified the Gear, you should know everything their deck will have around Wrenn/Oko. For example Gear 1 being the fastest is the only one which will have Stifle/Wasteland/Daze. Gear 2 will have Dreadhorde and no Stifle; discard x4 and at least 1x Plague Engi [if Grixis]. Gear 3 will have Wasteland [2x], Astro, Snap, roughly 1x Kcomm + 2x Decay (though it should be 1x Decay, 2x Trophy given how bad their Depths matchup is), 2x Plague Engi. If Gear 4 expect Dack, 1x Decay, 2x Trophy, no Wasteland, and basically the same stuff as Gear 3 [minus Astro]. Expect 1-2x Drown in the Loch from Gears 3 and 4.

Having reduced the opponent‘s strategy to the correct Gear, you also know they‘re basically powerless to play any cards that are off-Gear (because netdecking) - correctly assessing their Gear allows you to mostly remove player skill* from their equation. All you really need to know at that point is they have the generically good [Gear-appropriate] cards which are going to be played conventionally [aka predictably]. No matter the gear, their main objective is to win off the back of a 1-card combo of Wrenn or Oko, punctuated by the occasional Goyf.

*if you know what they can draw, how they have to play their cards, and identify the linear speed their deck is trying to operate at, then everything they do becomes a forced move + luck of the topdeck. The opportunity for them to augment raw power win % with win % from skill (beyond the point of not punting) is fairly low. This is not commentary such a pilot‘s skill level, rather that past a set point [competent] it doesn‘t count for much.

Knowing the ‘rule of Gears‘ won‘t change that you still have to brew/play in such a way that doesn‘t “die to Goyf,“ nor does it address the baseline power level of Wrenn/Oko; but understanding it will help make the best tempo-varying, multi-turn lines more obvious. With access to manlands and Scroll, we‘re much better set up to exploit opponents who are tapping out more often for cards we have the tools to 1-shot (assuming you can‘t ignore them and 1-shot the player).