[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist [Archive] - Page 18

Tobitzki

11-06-2019, 04:07 PM

3:1 last night at the local weekly with UB Stiflenought:

current list:

4 Delver
4 PhD
1 JVP
1 Brazen Bouncer
4 Scroll of Fate

20 Tempo, Stifles
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pierce
1 Vision Charm
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Ghost Quarter

4 WL
4 Delta
3 Strand
1 Vista
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Islands

1 Narset
1 Torpor Orb
1 Inquisition of K
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Dispute
1 Snare
1 E. E.
1 E Truth
1 Tyrant's Scorn
2 Fatal Push
1 Mind Harness
1 Surgical
1 Extirpate
1 Cage

The deck's been feeling decent over the past weeks, been hovering around 50:50 with several of the losses coming down identifiable punts and misplays on my part (In October I went 1-1-2, 2-1-1 and 1-2-1. Over this period I beat Bomberman, 4C Loam, BANT Miracles, Mono B Reanimator, plus 4C Delver in a bonus match; lost to 4C Control, Turbo Depths, Mono Red Stompy, and NBC RUG; with draws vs. 4C Delver, Grixis Midrange / Worldgorger, Stax, and ANT). Consistently interesting and tight matches, I feel especially confident about combo and, to a lesser degree, Delver MUs. Chalice also doesn't scare me anymore since Scroll of Fate.

On to last night (bear with me, I've never tried writing one of these before):

R1: 2:1 (LWW) on the draw vs. Sneak & Show (on Dazes & full Artisan SB plan)
Some justice in this match, as I lose G1 to a lucky topdeck but then don't get punished for a misplay G3.
G1 He keeps 7, goes T1 cantrip (no shuffle), then winces when I Thoughtseize him, casts Daze, I Daze back, take his S&T leaving his Grisel stranded. Next turn I Ponder into set-to-flip Delver, tapping out with Pierce in hand, and he gets me with S&T on the next turn.
G2 He mulls to 6, I think. I have double Delver with some permission. He Pyroblasts Delver #1, but the second one sticks and gets there eventually. Early Thoughtseize again and I Drown in the Loch an Artisan at some point (great card in the MU).
G3 I have Delver, double TS and Extirpate, and here's the punt: T2 I discard his Emrakul and blink, realizing too late that I could Surgical her away with the graveyard trigger on the stack. He eventually resolves SA under Delver beats, while I stare at my Extirpate and his 1, then 2, then 3 Ponders in the graveyard. When I finally cast it just for hand info, I see Grisel, then punt again by attacking Delver into it, but he whiffs again on the draw 7 (!) and can't close it out before I kill him with Scroll Morphs or Brazen Bouncer (I forget which).

R2: 2:1 (LWW) on the play vs. Jund Phoenix (KyFly list)
G1 He Bolts my Delver, then grinds me out and even has the Abrade for my Hail-Mary Dreadnought at the end.
G2 Mana denial & discard + Delver, GG
G3 Both on a mull to 6. This one was fun. I keep 2 WL, Cage, FoW, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, and end up getting rewarded. He quickly gets 2 Mountains into play and proceeds to cast 3 Pyromancers in a row. I draw a land in time, cantrip into Stiflenought and then Echoing Truth to ensure the kill in 2 DN hits (he was going to Bolt my DN, block it dead and survive on 1 life.).

R3: 2:1 (LWW) on the draw vs. Elves (Once Upon a Time, otherwise pretty old school)
G1 I Force a T2 Glimpse (would've been the absolute nuts for him), but he gets me with quick beatdowns.
G2: I board in all my removal, Inquisition, Torpor Orb, Cage and Surgical (the latter probably incorrect). Mull to 6 with Push, 2x discard, a land, Ponder and Daze or Stifle. T1 Inquisition (I take GSZ, he has Wirewood, BLR, Quirion, Pendelhaven & 2 Cradles and take the GSZ); T2 I Push his dude and TS another, soon Ponder or draw into Stiflenought. GG, although he's assembled a pretty formidable Army at this point already.
G3: He mulls to 6 (tells me later that he bottomed his Decay for fear of discard) I boarded our all discard on the draw, together with the remaining 2 Dazes for Misdirection and bring back all FoWs. T2 Force-protected Dreadnought. He crowds the board fast enough for me to need an extra hit; I keep digging in vain for Misdirection or Vision Charm, but don't need it)

R4: 0:2 on the draw vs. GW(b) Dark Maverick (now that's a scary deck)
I mull to barely keepable 6s both games and never really stand a chance.
G1 he goes Thalia into SFM, then another Thalia another SFM, and Reclaimer and I hold out pretty well (JVP & Drown in the Loch), but it's an uphill battle that never feels winnable.
G2 I at least have a Delver, then a second one, but Jitte on Dryad Arbor, then more creatures overwhelm me. I had horrible hands and draws, but this MU does not feel good at all. I'm not sure they run StPs in the main, so I guess I'm supposed to mulligan aggressively into a quick Dreadnought.

Super happy doing so well on the draw, especially postboard. I finally went with the full playset of Scrolls last night and tried out Ghostly Quarter, but it wasn't the night for those (faced only 1 blue deck out of 4, where hardcast DNs are a liability and never drew the GQ when it would've been relevant, e.g. taking S&S off of red with SA in play). So jury's still out on the flex slots: Scroll#4, JVP, and GQ.

I have more thoughts on individual card choices, but am going to leave it at this for now.

PS: Play Mind Harness!

Fox

11-06-2019, 06:04 PM

Nice work, I used to put Mind Harness in my UB boards; that card is pretty fun. On the list, GQ without ability to recur is maybe a bit ambitious, but it's still a mana source. In terms of the SB I don't love Echoing, Dispute, nor Tyrant's Scorn. I'm thinking a second copy of Brazen should probably be there. I prefer Ashiok to Narset in a SB, but looking at Narset in those matchups I think I'd have brought her in vs the first three definitely, and possibly the fourth. Limiting Grisel, ignoring Glimpse/Visionary, cracking down on Looting, and stopping Library all sound good on a card that is advancing your gameplan.

Versus Arcane Artisan be sure to read the last part of that text box. SnT players are notoriously loose with when they activate without provocation. Even if they don't punt, it can often be correct to let them have it and lose another three mana activating before going to remove (or let them untap with it and then kill spell on their second main). The one timing you want to stay away from is activation during your end step.

11-06-2019, 06:15 PM

PS: Play Mind Harness!

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Mind Harness, used to run one in a Zur EDH deck to screw Uril players back in the day.

In this case though, what exactly are we aiming it at? 'Goyfs?

Tobitzki

11-06-2019, 06:34 PM

I like Narset out of the board to dig for specific SB one-ofs or a missing combo piece (I often board out a Scroll or 2) and it's rare CA in this deck. Hasn't made an impact one way or other last night though, though I did board her in a few times, especially otd.

I've been considering the 2nd Brazen, but E Truth is just better vs Storm. I'll stick with the GQ for now--it's strong vs the 3 Tier1 decks (RUG, ANT, DD) and it allows me to run 3-4 Scrolls w/o mana worries.

I was running T Scorn MD before Drown was printed: I think it's great, but I could see putting Plague Engineer in that slot--I've just refused to get one so far because it's such an unbelievably dumb, abominable card.

Other contenders for the 3 above-mentioned flex slots are: Vantress Gargoyle, Tasigur, Gurmag, JVP#2, Brazen#2 (perhaps even Stratus Dancer or Fathom Seer); and Preordain, Portent, Academy Ruins.

Tobitzki

11-06-2019, 06:43 PM

what exactly are we aiming it at? 'Goyfs?

Great question. Goyfs and Hexdrinkers and Monkeys, KotRs (and Reclaimers and Ravunap Excavators), Hogaaks (and Vengevine), Arcanists (and Swiftspears), Rabblemasters & any other Goblin or Elf, a Scavenging Ooze. Hell, how about a Leo? Mostly started running it for Goyf and the recent upswing of Knight of the Reliquary, tho.

EDIT: Counting Dark Depths, that's almost 40% of the meta as per mtgtop8, and that's not counting Burn, Elves, Aluren, and a bunch of other 1%-and-under decks.

Mr. Safety

11-06-2019, 08:07 PM

crispymelee

11-06-2019, 08:12 PM

Rough night out for the Dreadnought team. Went 0-3 before dropping, with 0 experience versus 2 of the 3 decks I played. Went into the rounds with an eye to test my UR list (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-dread-1/?cb=1573062416), so there was definitely not as much confidence in my list as I normally would have running UW. Sideboard was far from ideal. I didn't take the time to rearrange my list at home and made up a sideboard from scratch. The current iteration of my list has what I had planned to take as the "Maybeboard".

Round 1 vs UG Fish (L, 0-2)
Whole match was a blowout. G1 was a quick loss due to a resolved Vial, with him on the play. Despite a T2 Dreadnought making it down, he was able to drop Lord -> Lord -> Lord and just outraced me. Opponent was being super technical about how I worded my timings, so when I claimed "Bolt on this Lord, with the other Lord on the Stack" when he Vialed it in, he claimed that "The Lord's not on the stack because I Vialed it in. You didn't respond to the Vial trigger being on the stack so the Lord you're targeting is too big to die to Bolt". All of which is technically true, but whatever. If it were a monthly, I'd probably call for a Judge. I was more concerned with building experience and it's just a reminder that some players will look for the smallest vagueries to gain an advantage.

- 2 Standstill, -1 Vision Charm ; +2 EE, +1 Pithing Needle (for Vial). Standstills vs Vials are the classic no-no, particularly versus Fish. At least that's what old knowledge told me. I knew EE @ 2 was particularly harsh on Fish and was hoping that was still the case.

G2 started brightly. On the play, I kept a hand with Standstill, Dreadnought, Stifle, Factory, Volc. Island, and 2 Daze. After a land go, I'm able to Daze his attempt to cast Vial. Replay the Volc, pass again. He passes back, and I go for Standstill. It resolves, but on his next turn a Wasteland eats my Island (didn't see Waste at all G1). He breaks Standstill, which gives me nothing relevant and more importantly, no lands. I'm on single digit life by the time I find a second land and it's over. Saw no boarded cards.

Round 2 vs UG Infect (L, 1-2)
A much more "relaxed" match in the sense that we weren't trying to rules lawyer each other into oblivion. G1 is hilarious as he gets the nuts, and is able to kill me T2 with 11 Infect damage off an innocent looking 1/1 that suddenly became The Incredible Hulk.

- 1 Standstill, -1 Vision Charm; +2 Engineered Explosives. Having only the faintest idea that his game plan was probably cheap dudes + manlands (Saw Inkmoth Nexus) into pumps, I boarded in EE with the idea of setting them around 0, 1, and 2.

G2, I'm on the play and have the advantage that he basically saw nothing from my list. It's a bit nervy at first as he lets a Delver resolve and I let a 1 drop Infector resolve. Delver flips naturally on T3 (I forget the trigger on T2), and after a few poison counters, my Factory trades with his Infector and we're both screwed out of necessary lands to do more than draw-go while my Delver gets in. I get the land I need first, a second Island, and immediately go for the hardcast Nought. He has a chuckle as he did NOT expect that, and I'm able to run him over.

G3, another tight game. Factory and 1/1 Delver beats are too slow to race him. Fortune was not on my side, as no Bolts showed up to take out his Inkmoth Nexus and when they did finally show up off a broken Standstill, I didn't have the R available to cast it, having tapped my one R source (Volc. Island) to cast that same Standstill the turn before.

Round 3 vs High Tide (L, 0-2)
Not sure what to say about this one. He played solitaire for both G1 and G2. REB's x3 and Narset would have been nice but I didn't have them sleeved up due to poor preparation. Spell Pierces and Tormods came in, Daze's went out. Wasn't sure if it was better to use permission on his hand shaping tools (Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm), or his engine/finishers (High Tide, [draw x cards card], etc.). The one opportunity I had to counter Candelabra, he had his own FoW waiting. G2 I got a little bit of traction, by going after his hand shaping spells, but I couldn't kill him in the few turns that bought. Narset (everything) and Ashiok (merchant scroll) would have been lovely, but didn't see Ashiok, and no Narset.

Was pretty turned off by him literally playing a game on his phone and turning around to talk with his buddies during the few turns I had. More or less the equivalent of having a sidebar during a tourney match in SSBM or SFV, at least in my mind. It's whatever.

Impressions:
+ Overall, still had a good time. Don't feel like I had anywhere near enough of games or experience to really make a statement on UR, other than the list is still a blast to play.
+ Creatures: besides Dreadnought and Factories, I really don't have much experience running creatures. It's fun.
- Rules lawyers: I get it. I consider myself one in areas that I understand (Humility). Just not impressed by people who try to play around the intent of what you're doing.
- Found myself thinking up answers to situation on the board as if I were running UW. Need to develop flexibility.

EDIT:
/snip tournament report

Awesome job man. Nice write-up too. Good to see people exploring other possibilities within this archetype, and glad someone had a good night to counteract my rough one. Everything in balance :)

Fox

11-06-2019, 09:23 PM

@crispymelee You hit 3 matchups where Vision Charm has quite a bit of text:
-Against Merfolk, I'd probably value Vis. Charm over Stifle. They generally lack Fetches, but the land mode on Vis. Charm can turn off islandwalk and lead to some pretty bad attacks for them.
-Versus infect, their best threat is generally Inkmoth which is notably an artifact, so phasing it out after a few pump spells is a high priority play to be aware of. Cutting Standstill #2 is probably better here. With EE (and Ratchet as well), this is one of those matchups where we remember the issues with not running Powder Keg which does kill lands with type creature or artifact.
-Vision Charm crushes High Tide. You can even let them combo off a bit and then "it sure would be a shame if the card High Tide only allowed tapping Islands for extra mana and you didn't have Islands for the rest of the turn..." Unless they were doing something graveyard'y, I don't think bringing in Tormod's Crypt accomplishes anything? Cutting Dazes seems fine. I rarely fight them on cantrips, just counter the business spells or let them walk into a Vision Charm with counter backup. Also remember that Stifle can target Flusterstorm's trigger, so post-High Tide you tap 1 land and you pay for Stifle and use the other mana [from their High Tide] to pay Fluster.

It would be hard to find two decks that get rolled harder by Vision Charm than High Tide and Doomsday (I see you've got a 5 card library sir, sure would be a shame if someone kicked over your pile...). Also keep in mind that Vision Charm can attack named nonbasics - emphasis here is on named. There is ofc the legacy achievement of all Desert become Island -> Daze my Desert back to hand, but the more relevant interaction to keep in mind is that Locus is a named land type. You're on UR and an opponent who plays Glimmerpost makes a cute trigger to gain life - funny thing about Vision Charm is all the Locus are now Plains, you gain zero life. In a pinch you can also nuke all their Locus in their upkeep to cut their mana down for a turn.

The other line you really want to look for with Vision Charm is vindicating Pithing Needle effects by "forgetting" to crack Fetches in response. Really look to play hands with 2x Fetch of the same name + a differently named Fetch (or a blue source) with turn 1 and 2 same-named Fetchland, pass. Let them squander the Needle, deploy your blue source, phase Needle out, and crack your Fetches. Let your opponent know when Needle will phase back in, and let them sit there for like 30 seconds after it phases back in thinking about what to name; after they decide, let them know it never left the battlefield and it's still on the two Fetches you just cracked.

crispymelee

11-08-2019, 12:56 PM

/snip strats

The Tormod's was for the Time Spiral shenanigans that were going on. I understand he can just Wish his way (cunning, the new Fae wish) out of it, but with the amount of cantrips, shapers, and permission he was putting into the graveyard, I thought it'd be an okay attempt at disruption.

Thanks for the analysis once again, I had come up exactly 0 of those VCharm interactions before your post. For the next local on Tuesday, gonna be going back to the old faithful UW list.

I always forget about just how much I lean on the inherent strengths of W in Legacy, until I don't play it :tongue: (Canonist, RiP, disenchant).

Rood

11-08-2019, 05:13 PM

I think Goyf and Veil of Summer might make green splash a viable option. The fact it blanks counter and abrupt decay is so good.

crispymelee

11-08-2019, 06:43 PM

I think Goyf and Veil of Summer might make green splash a viable option. The fact it blanks counter and abrupt decay is so good.

Wow - does this mean my playset of Rainforests and Trops might see the light of day? Do I need to get 3 more Goys? :P

On a serious note though, did you have more of the classic Tempo game in mind? Running a pair of Goyfs alongside Delvers, and Veil coming in from the side?

I was under the impression that G doesn't push the idea of controlling the board (W) or pushing damage quickly (R) as well as other splashes. Would love to know what other supporting cards you had in mind for G .

colo

11-09-2019, 07:52 AM

Managed to squeeze in a Legacy FNM last night (list unchanged), went 3-1: Oko Reanimator feat. Veil of Summer (2-0), Sneak and Show (2-0), UR Delver (1-2), RUG Delver (2-0). Of those 7 wins, 6 were due to "natural" Dreadnoughts.

The UR Delver match felt very winnable, but I punted badly in G2 (rushed out Dreadnouht + Stifle too early with too little blue mana on the board, so my second Daze and only Flusterstorm could not contribute to the ensuing counter-war that I lost), and saw nothing but reactive answers in G3, where a single Delver of Secrets was enough to make it for my opponent.

I'm considering adding a third Brazen Borrower to the main, it's just so good.

Fox

11-09-2019, 08:25 AM

What colors were you on @colo. Nice work btw!

colo

11-11-2019, 03:38 AM

Thanks 8)

My list (still mono U) as of last Friday:

4 Scroll of Fate
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
2 Brazen Borrower

4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
8 Island
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

I'm not 100% sure what I ran in the SB, but it's largely unchanged from my previous iterations.

Seymour_Asses

11-11-2019, 05:18 AM

Wow - does this mean my playset of Rainforests and Trops might see the light of day? Do I need to get 3 more Goys? :P

On a serious note though, did you have more of the classic Tempo game in mind? Running a pair of Goyfs alongside Delvers, and Veil coming in from the side?

I was under the impression that G doesn't push the idea of controlling the board (W) or pushing damage quickly (R) as well as other splashes. Would love to know what other supporting cards you had in mind for G .
Second this! I'm planning on putting together the UR version but UG sounds really interesting.

colo

11-11-2019, 09:50 AM

frustanani

11-11-2019, 11:15 AM

Based on the input considerng spalshing G: To those of you considering "light splashes" of other colours, what are the cards you expect to be most impactful in the current meta? To me, the most obvious that I can think of are the following:

Red:
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Abrade

Green:
Veil of Summer
Tarmogoyf
Oko, Thief of Crowns

White:
Swords to Plowshares
Teferi, Time Raveler

Black:
Fatal Push
Drown in the Loch

How would you extend (or correct) these lists?

Gurmag Angler too for black, they are not easy to kill
also Ice-Fang Coatl and Baleful Strix are a nice cards for a 2 cards "combo" deck.

colo

11-11-2019, 11:46 AM

Thanks for your contribution, frustanani - I updated the list with your suggestions :) Of course; Strix and Angler are kinda no-brainers; I wonder why I hadn't thought about them! :) Ice-Fang Coatl would require a snow sub-theme to really pull it off (and kinda nonbos with Scroll of Fate, just like Strix), but it's still a strong enough card to consider, I'd say.

Tobitzki

11-11-2019, 12:13 PM

@Colo

main reason for running black is Thoughseize imo. Drown and Push are also good of course, but the information from TS in a deck that wants to 2-for-1s itself is super strong.

We can start debating the merits vs the antisynergy of Strix in a Scroll deck if and when W6 gets banned; right now that card is unplayable outside of hard control. On the other hand: Plague Engineer, while obnoxious design and also a nonbo with Scroll, is a SB allstar.

Rood

11-11-2019, 01:27 PM

Veil to protect Scroll, Dreadnoughts, Delvers seems really good. I will be trying out a green splash list with some # of Goyfs and 4 Veil of summer sb

Fox

11-11-2019, 03:52 PM

I think Goyf is one of those cards that doesn't really help. If you're dying to Delver you can block with your own Delver (or Stratus). Under no circumstance can you afford to block enemy Goyf with a Goyf (those ones from opponents come with Bolt + Wrenn + Oko, all of which blow you out postcombat). Historically Goyf was run with Dreadnought b/c [in a format where SCM wasn't printed yet] you had to run Goyf in response to opponents having Goyf (he wasn't ever going to die to a Firespouts). This is a pretty bad place to be where opponents who have Goyf + at least 8 more 'trick' cards than you which effortlessly hand them the Goyf war victory. Probably the easiest way to see this style fail is to run your UG idea vs pre-Czech Shardless BUG - this should rapidly show you the issue with doing the same thing less effectively (and they don't have Bolt, and wouldn't have Wrenn or Oko in that timeframe).

You reach for that 3rd color and you can kiss your dreams of casting our best card [Scroll of Fate]/opening on Fetch for basic goodbye. When it comes to Oko, there's no shortage of removal that gifted opponents a 2/2 or a 3/3 - and this has been the primary deficit of UG for many years: there isn't a card that fixes what you gave them in a velocity positive way. If the maybeGoyf [Gargoyle] wasn't working, then actual Goyf isn't going to work either. Goyf can win games of legacy by itself b/c it's a poorly-designed card, but you really don't want to play this against other decks that use it better. Every Goyf you add is going to cripple your ability to be an effective Dreadnought-enabling deck. This is a very quick way to discover that UG + Oko/Goyf = should be playing red for Bolt/Wrenn = and now I'm dropping Dreadnought and I'm RUG Delver now.

A very important skill is differentiating a legacy staple from advancing a Dreadnought plan. You're going one step beyond this if you're advocating playing Strix into Wrenn the Gathering. While Ice-Fang can at least vindicate an opposing Goyf (whether or not they have a Wrenn), you're saying that you're on 2c [needing snow basics] and if we add Goyf and Dreadnought, you've already removed Delver from your list (too many Delver non-flipping cards). Now you're durdling around against combo (your best matchup) and only producing real threats [at sorcery speed] after turn 1...then this is a downward spiral. The reason you could play Dreadnought in the first place is b/c you chose cards to enable/justify a 12/12 tempo reservoir. The more normal magic you play, the worse that tempo reservoir will get; i.e. unable to leverage asymmetry.

You're rather restricted to two reliable paths forward: combo them out (UR's count to 20 theme) or ramp up the tempo weirdness (UW's ability to sit back playing subgames enabled by reset buttons, like Verdict, and manland superiority under Teferi). If you really want to test Goyf and try and exploit this time in legacy where deathtouching ETB-value scum have been mostly hated out by Wrenn, go ahead....just don't be surprised when you're running into better Goyf shells or Snapcasters.

In terms of card analysis, I'd agree with Veil being strong; but I'd put Lotus Field/Crop Rot above Oko which is a good ways above Goyf. When it comes to the black cards, you're naming 2 effects that can't take over a game when behind; that's a bit of a problem since you're deferring power to a tempo reservoir which is optimally being enabled by a 3-drop. As far as black goes right now, I think you'd really struggle to say a UB Dreadnought build is better than UB Standstill since they just got Blacklance Paragon and Murderous Rider which solve the three largest problems they had [opposing PWs, dies to Goyf, dies to Burn].

crispymelee

11-11-2019, 07:48 PM

(Edit: I'll update this list with community suggestions.)

Red:
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Abrade

Green:
Veil of Summer
Tarmogoyf
Ice-Fang Coatl
Oko, Thief of Crowns

White:
Swords to Plowshares
Teferi, Time Raveler

Black:
Fatal Push
Gurmag Angler
Baleful Strix
Drown in the Loch

If by "light splash" you mean "doesn't have WW or RR" in the casting cost":

White:
Celestial Purge
- Hits W6, Liliana, [insert random bothersome R or B permanent here]
Acid Rain
- Not white, but if you were to run an effect as expensive as this (3U), it'd likely be in a more traditional control-style list splashing W anyways. Does not care about basic typing. Idk if it's even worth considering since I don't know how badly it would actually hurt G-focused decks and a resolved W6 does not care that much about it.

Also, congrats on your result! It's so interesting seeing a list with CB and no Top, or even a Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library.

frustanani

11-12-2019, 01:46 AM

Based on the input considerng spalshing G: To those of you considering "light splashes" of other colours, what are the cards you expect to be most impactful in the current meta? To me, the most obvious that I can think of are the following:

(Edit: I'll update this list with community suggestions.)

Red:
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Abrade

Green:
Veil of Summer
Tarmogoyf
Ice-Fang Coatl
Oko, Thief of Crowns

White:
Swords to Plowshares
Teferi, Time Raveler

Black:
Fatal Push
Gurmag Angler
Baleful Strix
Drown in the Loch

How would you extend (or correct) these lists?

For reference, I'm using 3 Vantress Gargoyle in a mono blue list without 12/12 and it is a super creature against delver decks
I'm using them with 4 thought Scour 1 Set Adrift, 1 Tribute Mage, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 True-Name Nemesis, 4 Delver of Secrets & 1 Brazen Borrower.

Actually I don't think that the second colour for Phyrexian Dreadnought decks should be chosen according to creatures. Or at least in a second step. Blue has already a nice and sufficient tool. Spells and Planeswalker are to my view more important in that choice.

I'm refering to
Red: Lightning Bolt, Abrade, Fire Ice, Red Elemental Blast, Magmatic Sinkhole
Green: Veil of Summer, Oko, Thief of Crowns, Crop Rotation, Sylvan Library
Black: Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Drown in the Loch
White: Swords to Plowshares, Teferi, Time Raveler, Rest in Peace

Fox and Tobitzki are right, 1/1 Creatures are not a nice choice now cause of Wreen and Plague

Than, in second time creatures:
Red: Bonecrusher Giant
White: ?
Green: Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills, Elvish Reclaimer
Black: Gurmag Angler
Blue: Vantress Gargoyle, True-Name Nemesis, Delver of Secrets, Brazen Borrower, Snapcaster Mage, Stratus Dancer, Trinket Mage.

Fox

11-12-2019, 09:52 AM

I would take Trinket Mage off that list, that card hasn‘t been playable since early 2012 [when we stopped being a CB/SDT deck]. Too slow for legacy, and at 3+ mana we have to compare it directly to a PW.

Mr. Safety

11-12-2019, 10:07 AM

Rood

11-12-2019, 11:00 AM

Mage got phased out by TNN which got fazed out by scroll of Fate. But even before then it got cut its way too slow for its impact

Mr. Safety

11-12-2019, 11:59 AM

Mage got phased out by TNN which got fazed out by scroll of Fate. But even before then it got cut its way too slow for its impact

BTW, I've been catching you on ELD games YouTube videos lately. Pretty cool how you dismantled a storm player 2-0 recently, really displaying the power level of Scroll of Fate even without Dreadnought. You closed games super fast.

Fox

11-12-2019, 10:06 PM

Scouring over the EW decklists. Some things of note as I scrolled through:
-pretty good amount of Painters, Food Chains, Enchantress, Pox, and Gaak
-a lot of RG lands, Moon Stompy, Bomberman, and Dredge
-at least 2 decks with Ill-Gotten Gains (both Painters iirc); that's just good, clean livin' :cool:

In terms of Dreadnought:
-one severely underpowered mono-U list with 2x Renegade Doppelganger and no Scrolls. Other creature was Delver (and Dreadnought ofc). Pretty sure this was a direct netdeck from ewlandon's 5-0.
-Didn't really scrutinize SBs too much, but that's all the Dreads I saw - maybe one of the many RUG Delver decks had one sitting in there.

Team Tundra stacked the box real hard and only got 6 slots of the top 70. These decks clearly were not stopping RUG's Wrenn/Oko, and probably ultimately boosting RUG's performance to no small degree. It's somewhat humorous watching the whole "CB is bad right now" when that's the only card in their deck that has ever mattered. The Hogaak decks likely ran into profound trouble with Oko Elk'ifying their 8/8s. Reanimator apparently got massacred (Dredge as well, but much lower in overall number); their spell-based yard combo brethren [ANT] blew them out of the water. Honestly not surprised to see DnT finding good matchups near the RUG-shaped apex, and having a fairly strong showing.

In terms of general trends, the Karn decks were playing super hard into enemy Karns. Probably a lot of completely variance-based self-kills in these mirror matches, but likely predictable that the Karn stompy deck with the best attacks [Mentor] seemed to do the best. Lots of weird Teferi [mis]use going on. Most of the UW guys figured out the whole "play this card with Astrolabe" trick, but Teferi is clearly not addressing the problems they are having (especially against Oko). Rather humorously, lots of combo decks were throwing in some Teferi (Infect, OmniTell, UW Helmerator, and like every Food Chain deck)...and it kinda seems egregious - like what are you bouncing to generate velocity [when opponent's don't have a worthwhile target]? I'm sure it's fine for them, but it's kind of being used like a 3 mana discard spell vs enemy countermagic. I don't recall seeing a single deck using him correctly [with manlands].

I wish I could have made it out there; RUG is a pretty boring coin flip to play against, but most of the rest of that meta seems pretty reasonable for us.

Tobitzki

11-13-2019, 12:17 PM

2:2 last night at the weekly with UB Stiflenought.

Ran a single Gurmag over Scroll #4, which felt great every time I saw it. Otherwise not a lot of new information on flex slots; list felt decent as usual.

0:2 vs Painter. Very cool, intricate and tight games here. I still like this MU a lot, but sometimes they just draw into that final piece they need. I made some sideboarding mistakes, thinking they had Chalice for some reason, and also shaved a Stifle, which has so many good targets here. But it wasn't what lost me G2.

0:2 vs UB Vantress Delver. I just put this deck together myself and almost tried it out last night. The kind of Delver deck we don't want to see: basic lands, stack interaction, discard and removal that actually hits DN. Got overwhelmed both times; the Gargoyle is just gas in the Delver mirror: first stonewalling Aberrations, later Goyfing you in the air. I actually think this is a very reasonable meta deck right now (for the same reasons that DS is decently positioned and why I feel good about my own list)

2:0 vs BUG Stiflenought (4 Bobs, 4 Goyfs, 4 Decays/Trophies; no Scrolls or Wasteland). My draws consistently lined up well here. At some point I opted to Stifle his only fetch with DN in hand after Pondering into Gurmag and guaranteed-to-flip Delver. We had a good conversation about the Noughty business afterwards, where I sold him hard on Scrolls & WLs. If W6 gets the ban hammer though, there won't be a good excuse not to play Bobs in UB anymore. I could also see a light G splash for just SB Decay and Veil of Summer. Might have to get a couple extra duals, eventually...

2:0 vs BUG Hogaak. G1 otd: T1 Delver into T2 DN, GG. G2 he mulls to 4, bummer.

I'll hold on to the 1 remaining copy of JVP for now, but it is on notice. (it's super flexible as a Scrollable pseudo cantrip, pseudo removal/life gain, pseudo discard, but it's just so fucking meh at 2cmc and I usually board it out, so it might eventually have to move for another Brazen B, the 4th Scroll or just an actual cantrip.)

Fallen_Empire

11-15-2019, 02:49 AM

0:2 vs UB Vantress Delver. I just put this deck together myself and almost tried it out last night. The kind of Delver deck we don't want to see: basic lands, stack interaction, discard and removal that actually hits DN. Got overwhelmed both times; the Gargoyle is just gas in the Delver mirror: first stonewalling Aberrations, later Goyfing you in the air. I actually think this is a very reasonable meta deck right now (for the same reasons that DS is decently positioned and why I feel good about my own list)

How crazy would it be to run a UB dreadnought list that runs Vantress instead of delver. Main deck hedron crab & surgical?

Rocco111

11-15-2019, 05:33 AM

Fox

11-15-2019, 07:05 AM

Vantress has a lot of conditions, and the card doesn't work all that well with Dreadnought tech. You can put it in face-down to ignore the attack/block clause one time, and it's a Vision Charm target. Outside of that it has a symmetrical mill ability, mostly against CB...but I guess there is a world where you can win by mill. Not sure how this creature is ever blocking between Dreadnought, FoW, and Scroll downward-regulating hand size; but even if you could, enemy Goyf is going to be at least a 5/6 by turn 3-4 quite reliably against you. You can do the whole Thought Scour reverse-engine stuff, but that's pretty high variance against Gurmag/Mandrils, Goyf, Cabal Rit, Snapcaster, Brainstorm in response, yard combo, etc... There's not a great reason to ever Scour yourself blindly, certainly not in a way that advances a Dreadnought plan.

If you want to play mill, you can't really play Dreadnought with it - there's not enough slots. Vantress also runs into some issues with Ashiok being about the best PW mill could ask for, since every [-1] exiles their yard. At that point you have to look at a stack of Gargoyle vs half as many slots of Dead of Winter/Toxic Deluge (you just wish these up with Scheming Symmetry) and choose the one that is the most likely to win a game (it's going to be the wrath that doesn't have a downside for you rather than the creature most opponents' have maindeck removal for).

There's a pretty significant need for plans to come together with a Dreadnought-advancing purpose. Random milling (that isn't going to win a game) plus a 5/4 maybe-Goyf in the air isn't a coherent enough strategy to create windows of opportunity for Dreadnought. Forget threats for a moment, you don't even have blockers until turn 2, and you still need 3 mana to play the one card that might bail you out (Scroll). Everything being done is a bit too sluggish for legacy, and that's assuming you hit your first 3 land-drops. Let's also take a moment to watch the trajectory of a game when you have to play lands (shrinking hand) with a payoff that kinda needs you to be staying at 4+ cards in hand.

@Rocco111 I would say that too much variance already exists between Gargoyle and Dreadnought timing windows. I don't think Gargoyle is good in Shadow, but we can at least see this [high variance] idea of Shadow's trajectory towards hellbent topdecking + being unable to block with Gargoyle = bigger DS topdecks. Shifting back to Dreadnought...You really can't afford to play Hymn on top of this; the card has nothing to do with how Dreadnoughts get put into play. You are going to get behind on board, and you're gonna lose b/c every not-Dreadnought-making card is not only going to fail to fix the board/preserve life total, such cards will also strand Dreadnoughts in hand (costing you draw steps/turns you don't have). What you're suggesting is playing pretty slow offense with zero defense. Your deck idea would not reliably force opponents to interact so much as forcing you to interact with ineffective tools.

Mr. Safety

11-15-2019, 08:05 AM

Vantress in a UB Dread shell is working fine. Just add some more discard effect (i.e. Tourach), Tought Scour (esp great vs Miracle), keep the counter package, eventually let go of the Standstill... And you are off to some fun. :)
Most people actually do not know how to interact with Vantress, especially the "condition" for it to block. Making it a virtually bigger threat than it actually is.

I have been trying to make Vantress Gargoyle work, and it works fine when paired with Ponder instead of Standstill (which I think you agree with based on this statement.) However...counting on your opponents to be 'bad' isn't a winning strategy. Bad players don't make cards playable. Also, without Standstill keeping your hand full, how are you going to block? Most cantrip-cartel decks don't have a fistful of cards once you hit the mid-game, maybe 2-3 max. So even if you 'bluff' blocking when you can't, you can't cheat. It can't block and you're going to lose to better threats. If at the same time you can't attack (no threshold) now you are really boned. I'm not saying Vantress Gargoyle is unplayable, but I don't think Dreadstill is the deck for it. This deck pivots from control to agro with specific interactions, of which Gargoyle adds an unnecessary (read: risky) level of complexity.

EDIT: I just read Fox's post directly above, and I agree with it. Gargoyle doesn't allow you to take advantage of gamestate opportunities unless the stars align perfectly; that means it's probably not optimal.

Fox

11-16-2019, 08:01 PM

Play some round robin games since we only had 4 decks in house. Room was Stryfo Pile, Meathooks, Elves, and manifest destiny. All three die rolls lost.

Round 1 vs Elves (1-2): Game 1 I StP their turn 1 mana elf; their next turn they miss on land and have to GSZ for Arbor. My hand here is Factory + Standstill, Plow and maybe a Stifle (I was on a mull to 5), so I choose to Plow the Arbor and go for Standstill on the next turn to better undo the mull to 5. Their next play is Magus of the Crop Rot that turns into a 3/4 conditionally, so I can't really Standstill any more. The game goes on another 6 or so turns (getting hit by small dudes) and I think I had around 20 topdecks that would have let me Standstill and stabilize, but I just draw lands and counterspells. Game 2 gets to a point where Teferi allows an instant speed Verdict, and they don't recover before Karn starts killing lands. Game 3 is a weird game where I chose lines of play to around stopping Cradle from hardcasting a big guy from hand, but it turns out they're on the NO plan. I could have held up CP on their turn, but it didn't seem like it was going to fix the board so I diverted mana into a Karn/Crucible + recur Wasteland plan. I didn't sit there and do the math and Wasteland Arbor into a Quirion, which would have bought a turn [maybe], but they had a pretty full hand and I don't think Karn was going to have time to do his thing; the second Wasteland activation was a punt though. I think the 2-turn plan prioritizing Karn was probably better than delaying for a Priest into vast amounts of mana. All 3 games were close and fun, lots of decision points.

Round 2 vs Stryfo Pile (1-0): Loooong game 1, I think they had 6 turns of Dack vs 2 failed attempts to steal Scroll...8+ turns of JTMS bstorms...a second Dack that stole Scroll into a Teferi bounce [on Scroll] into you lose Dack to Factory under the almighty Teferi...about 4 turns of Oko...and a Wrenn that got up to 7 loyalty. So to illustrate their board at the end: JTMS on [5], Oko on [9], and Wrenn on [7]. I guess this is supposed to be scary, but Azcanta activations into exile your P-Fire with FoN turned every attack into lose cards, or else. With opponent on 1 life, I cast StP on Engineer [naming Assembly Worker], attacked with 2x Elk [Crucible and Dreadnought] + 3x Factory, and uh yeah, you just kill the player. Difficult to understand all the fuss about Wrenn/Oko when you have games like these.

Round 3 vs Meathooks (1-2): Game 1 they fall to a turn 2 Nought, but they did learn that flanking does not work on blocks (except vs flanking). Game 2 is one of those draw all 4 Dreadnought in a row games, which is pretty humorous. Game 3 was quite close as they paid 8 to dodge a Verdict with few lands and no Vial; they were 1 life from dying to 2/2 manifest + Factory animate + Karn animating Scroll. The flying got them there though, a turn before they would have died about 2x over. Regardless of this deck being quite rare, there's no excuse for not knowing Harmonic Sliver is a 3x in their board - this is one of those reasons you still play Torpor Orb. I enjoy running across decks like this, because you come in being able to name ~55 cards of their maindeck and at least 10 of their sideboard with high fidelity if you play enough legacy.

Reducing opponents' strategies to knowable, and thus predictable (no matter how rare), entities is a key skill in Dreadnought, and this UW build is just a blast to play. It's just lines upon lines of truly horrifying effects for opposing decks slog through, and at the end of it all you still get to bash with 12/12s. These were some fun matchups today. It's unfortunate that this environment has to come at the cost of RUG Delver nonsense, but everything else going on in this meta is just delightful to play against.

Mr. Safety

11-18-2019, 12:34 PM

Bob is playable again, I'm super excited to start playing my UB Death-Nought list.

KobeBryan

11-18-2019, 05:46 PM

Bob is playable again, I'm super excited to start playing my UB Death-Nought list.

Thank god...w6 is oppressive.

Fox

11-18-2019, 06:05 PM

Thank god...w6 is oppressive.

Naw, he was just more dumb than anything. Have to remember that RUG Delver is a dead deck in that they can only change by getting strict upgrades. There was a sequence of banning DRS into printing 3 upgrades directly into their deck and 2 toolbox upgrades [Wrenn/Hexdrinker/Oko and Cindervines/Borrower respectively]. Oppressive for a time, sure - but completely unable to change whilst everything else is power crept up around them as they look on helplessly. I mean just unbanning DRS would have reduced their whole deck back to irrelevance.

We did not care about what W&6 was doing to the meta over in Dreadnoughtland, outside of Dark Confidant. They just let DnT and Mother of Runes back in to the format, and that means you need to be able to deal with Revoker through that. This is not a great change for us in terms of demands on deck construction. While DnT is merely an annoyance, you need to understand that you're about to get Hymn'd to oblivion - if you build for that too, you're going to have zero space to deal with CB. This is every legacy decks' problem again.

Fox

11-23-2019, 07:37 PM

Had some spare time to play legacy; pretty light crowd before the holiday. Six decks: UWr Blade, 2x BUG Delver, Echo Cannon, DeTH*, manifest destiny. As expected Hymn spam is coming back, it appears none of the Blade or BUG Delver players have been blown out by Hymn/Snapcaster or CB yet, so I doubt it'll be much time before they realize their decks can't really hang with strategies that exploit Hymn better while they ram their SFMs into KComm or their Delvers/Gurmags into Strix.
*Depths/Stage/Hexmage, Karn, Painter combo, Helm/Leyline, Tendrils/IT/Rit/LED all in one.

-R1 vs UWr Blade (0-2): they drew well and won the Snapcaster vs nuke your yard subgame both times.
-R2 vs DeTH (2-0): they got to Tendrils me down to 2 after I hit them with a Dreadnought; they then went up to 28 life (or as Dreadnought + Factory calls it: "2-turn clock"). Game 2 they concede to mill win on board: Karn, Coating + Teferi (note how this resets Ashiok), and Ashiok.
-R2 vs Echo Cannon (2-1): Game 1 they eventually are staring down my Karn with their own and Factories take over (Emry only a 1/2). Game 2 they are able to stabilize from a turn 2 Dreadnought after ~5 Echoes and an Ensaring Bridge. Game 3 I respond to their turn 1 Chalice with Canonist on turn 2; I have FoN/blue card in hand so the only cards I'm ever countering are Karn and maybe Echo so they are given ~3 Narsets and a Grid that have no meaning to me. They showed me Mystical Dispute game 2 off an LED activation so I play around it the whole game and leverage their Grid against them by never casting the Karn they saw off Bauble. Instead I beat down with Factories and Ethersworn into an Emry that can't ever do Bauble value tricks b/c their mana in mostly Tombs. Once we get to time they use the last of their mana to cast a Bridge (down to 1 life; this is where we credit opponent for turns-long foresight avoiding risks of Bauble spamming). On turn 1 (overtime) I cast a Karn they can't do anything about with the Dispute in hand and they lose all their non-Tomb mana (Opal, 2x Synod), I use [+1] to kill Chalice and pass as the Bridge says no to attacks. Turn 2 of overtime opponent is able to get hand back down to 1 card. I untap, animate 2 Factory *then* play Humility and rumble across the finish line with 3x 1/1s. Layers for the win.

Really interesting play and decision making against the combo decks today, in the sense that I'm the prison role. It's a nice change of pace to mostly ignore winning and focus everything into breaking down their deck, effect by effect, with card evaluation/wincon-based magic. While certainly fun and interesting on my side, those two lists have literally no outs once I have even a few pieces set; and just by himself, Karn is basically game over for them. Hopefully people keep playing these types of 'loses-to Dreadnought tribal' decks and doing well against Hymn/CB (though I doubt they will sadly).

Edit: one interesting rules interaction of Karn animate -> JVP shrink your animated guy -> their turn re-animate same object (has been noncreature since the beginning of their turn) = now a creature with -2/-0 still on it. Pretty sure the judge got the ruling right, b/c there is a special set of rules governing the setting of power and toughness (kinda like layers have their own group of bylaws, and this is one of them). Just checked with judge chat, Karn is a 7b effect, JVP is in 7c (applied after) so while this looks like sequential layering (i.e. C then B, where B now overrides) the rules dictate B is implemented before C regardless of timestamp.

KobeBryan

11-27-2019, 04:23 PM

Anyone have a standard list with bob?

Tobitzki

11-29-2019, 06:46 AM

Anyone have a standard list with bob?

check a few pages back for my last list. With Bobs “unbanned” now I would take out Baby Jace & Gurmag, put Brazen Borrower in the side & add 3 Bobs along with a second USea. (ie 4 Delver / 4 Dreadnoughts / 3 Bobs / 3 Scrolls) Otherwise, JPA93 had a random 5:0 around summer with a 4 Bob list, see if you can find that on Goldfish or Mtgtop8

Mr. Safety

11-29-2019, 01:44 PM

This is what i've been playing, and i love it:

4x death's shadow
3x phyrexian dreadnought
3x dark confidant
2x brazen borrower
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x stifle
4x force of will
1x force of negation
2x spell pierce
4x thoughtseize
2x hymn to tourach
1x lim-duls vault
2x fatal push
1x dismember
1x Toxic Deluge
4x wasteland
4x delta
3x misty
1x marsh flats
3x watery grave
1x darkslick shores
1x island
1x swamp

EDIT: Added Toxic Deluge as card #60

Seymour_Asses

11-29-2019, 11:33 PM

This is what i've been playing, and i love it:

4x death's shadow
3x phyrexian dreadnought
3x dark confidant
2x brazen borrower
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x stifle
4x force of will
1x force of negation
2x spell pierce
4x thoughtseize
2x hymn to tourach
1x lim-duls vault
2x fatal push
1x dismember
4x wasteland
4x delta
3x misty
1x marsh flats
3x watery grave
1x darkslick shores
1x island
1x swamp

Damn that list looks like a blast! How has it been performing?

EDIT: Oh and it looks like you've only got 59 cards in your main.

Mr. Safety

11-30-2019, 01:00 PM

The 60th card is a Toxic Deluge (trying that over Dismember #2.) {EDIT: Post fixed to reflect that} I am really drifting towards midrange with Hymn, Shadow, and Deluge. Without USea I opted for Spell Pierce and Force of Negation, and the consideration that without Delver i really can't afford to play Daze. My mana development has thanked me for that, lol. The 3 drops out of the sideboard are much more reasonable (Liliana LH, Narset PoV.) Honestly, i could play some PW's main as well. Its an avenue i might explore.

Its quite fun! Brazen Borrower is absolutely awesome, giving outs to a lot of problematic situations. The fun-of LDV has clinched some games as well.

Seymour_Asses

11-30-2019, 04:08 PM

Nice! What PW's would you run mainboard? Lili? Could you afford the 4 mana for Jace?

Mr. Safety

11-30-2019, 09:46 PM

Nice! What PW's would you run mainboard? Lili? Could you afford the 4 mana for Jace?

Liliana the Last Hope and Narset, parter of veils. Jace is so tempting but i think it would need 19 lands. Creeping-Tar Pit could be land 19, curious about that as well.

I want to get some good experience in serious games before i tweak too much. So far it has been sound in testing, but some competitive play will really help find holes.

Fox

12-01-2019, 01:52 PM

GP Bologna lists are up, didn't see any Dreadnought. Closest thing was a UW Standstill list which *almost* used Teferi correctly, but likely got in too much trouble running only 2 Wraths which are mostly uncastable vs DnT. The manabase was pretty suspect w/ 20 land total, including 4 Plains and Heliod's (enchant Stronghold). Could get more into it and the problems with Myth Realized it ran, but at the end of the day they didn't play any copies of Factory... :laugh:

-U/R Delver embarrassed itself pretty badly; while it got #6 and #13, that was their entire presence in the top 64. There were 112 copies of that deck, it was 7% of the room.
-BUG Delver did quite well with 67 copies resulting in 6 top64 appearances (2 were top 8). Hymn inclusion was sparse.
-Miracles did fine with 4/81 in top64. There is something humorous stuff going on there where they're pretty much all picking up Oko and largely not playing CB. The rest of the slots are going to Astrolabe (makes sense with Oko), and seems to explain the move away from CB and towards Teferi ([-3] pick up Astro).
-Grixis Control had 31 copies and did nothing, while diet Grixis (Grixis Delver) clustered around the low end of the top64 with 5/73. I really don't understand their morose fascination with playing Grixis Delver, it really isn't that good having Delver all alone at 1cmc. Both decks seem to suffer massive problems with Oko, looking at their placement. Grixis Control is probably running into more issues with fractal 3/3s and Plague Engineer naming Strix.
-Death and Taxes apparently has profound problems with both Oko+Astro and Oko+Engi decks with 1/89 copies in the top64 (they did get #65 slot though).
-Depths did quite well with 10/93 in the top64; this makes sense given how easy it was to dodge their hardest matchup (DnT) at higher tables. It also makes this deck one of the worst decks to ever lose with early as you'd get mobbed by DnT apparently.

That was most of the meta you need to care about (546 of ~1600 decks). Lands did fine with its 50 copies, and Bomberman using Mentor to demonstrate that it's about the best Chalice deck right now (3/16 in top64). Blade clustered heavily around [rough average] place 200 and 1000, proving what we already know about the deck just being a worse version of decks that exist. Burn wasn't heavily played, but it makes sense that it has a difficult time with a high loyalty maindeck, lifegain PW. Sneak and Show still outperforms Omni (roughly 100 copies combined), but just like Depths you kinda need to escape DnT's orbit in the middle.

I don't really think Oko is good enough to keep Hymn and CB in check, but we're in pretty good shape if it does. Oko is uh yeah, he's getting banned...especially if he really is good enough to keep Hymn/CB from dominating top tables. I doubt they'll ban Astrolabe, as this would simply re-entrench Delver decks (and reversing that was kind of the only reason Wrenn got hit).

Still liking the UW Dreadnought shell I'm running since it doesn't really care about Oko, and it also stomps Dreadhorde which was heavily represented by UR Delver. On the UR Dreadstill side of things, you need Snare for Goyf and I imagine Daze vs Oko is going to be exceptionally easy. It may be a good time to think about moving Abrade over to Smash to Smithereens with all the targets opponents are playing [Astrolabe]. Also consider bigger cards like Shattering Spree/Meltdown/Hammer Mage/Karn (need Null Rod to be 1-sided)/By Force/etc. Just keep in mind that ANT is still doing well (4/76 in top64) when selecting anti-artifact cards. I'd consider Karn really heavily in UB builds since that color combo needs all the help it can get vs artifacts. I agree with Last Hope there from recent discussion.

Boris0r

12-01-2019, 04:44 PM

Your knowledge of the format and information processing always amazes me fox.
Thanks for the insights

Sounds like my UR delver might be more fun with dreadnoughts in it at the moment :)

Mr. Safety

12-02-2019, 08:27 AM

Damn that list looks like a blast! How has it been performing?

EDIT: Oh and it looks like you've only got 59 cards in your main.

I started a thread to discuss the deck in New & Developmental. If you're interested in digging deeper I would welcome your thoughts! Link below:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33178-Death-Nought

colo

12-05-2019, 04:01 AM

Made it to four rounds of Legacy yesterday, piloting my unchanged list to a 2-2 finish: Grixis Control (2-0), Eldrazi Blood Sun Stompy (1-2), UB Death's Shadow with r splashed for Grim Lavamancer and The Royal Scions (0-2; both rounds rather unlucky on my part), UWg Oko Snow Control (2-1). "Hardcast" Phyrexian Dreadnought accounted for three wins, Counterbalance (effectively) for one. People still underestimate the power of Scroll of Fate.

kurenski

12-06-2019, 05:08 AM

I see many lists running counterbalance. Is there some interaction I am missing or are people just slamming and hoping to hit every brainstorm/ponder opponent tries to cast cause we kinda have low cost cards?

colo

12-06-2019, 06:28 AM

Yes, that is my "strategy" behind running it. Cantrips and CMC 1 removal is significantly less likely to resolve, esp. if you can Brainstorm in response. Also, it's a popular target for opp's counter spells that provides incremental value with zero additional investment, is difficult to handle once resolved, and/but doesn't absolutely HAVE to live to make a game.

Fox

12-07-2019, 08:40 PM

Not enough players showed up today so just a pickup game vs Bomberman. Since it's only 1 match I'll reconstruct as best I remember:
Game 1: opponent wins die roll

Turn 0: land, Petal x2, Mox, Chalice x=1. (my opening hand is land x4 and Snare, BS, and Azcanta)
Turn 1: I topdeck JVP, play Factory and pass.
Turn 2: Opponent plays land + x=2 Ballista. I play land, Azcanta.
Turn 3: pump Ballista, attack for 3. I play land and JVP.
Turn 4: pump Ballista, attack for 4, remove 2 counters to kill JVP postcombat. I play land and Karn and [+1] to remove Chalice.
Turn 5: they attack Karn for 2, and play their own Karn and [-2] wishing for Ballista. I attack their Karn for with Factory down to 1 Loyalty (my Karn kills a Mox with [+1]).
Turn 6: they play x=2 Ballista, don't attack, and +1 Karn no targets. I get up to 6 mana (Azcanta), cast Verdict, animate Factory and kill their Karn (my Karn kills a Petal iirc).
Turn 7: from this point all paths lead to my victory.

Game 2: -1 StP, -1 Noxious, -1 Dreadnought, -1 Snare. +1 Keg, +1 Humility, +1 Ashiok, +1 Torpor.
Turn 0: Tomb pass.
Turn 1: I Wasteland Tomb and pass. The rest of my hand is Dreadnought x2, Ashiok, Strand, Factory, Karn, and something I topdecked.
Turn 2: Plains, pass. Land, pass.
Turn 3: Plains, pass. Land, Standstill, pass.
Turn 4: Land, Mentor (crack Standstill) -> FoW. Land, Ashiok [-1] target them, pass.
Turn 5: Sol Land, Karn [-2] wish Liquimetal, play Petal, sac Petal and cast Liquimetal. Upkeep they Coat Ashiok; I play land #4 and Karn [+1] no targets.
Turn 6: They Karn [+1] on Coating and hit my Karn down to [4] loyalty. I play Dreadnought/Stifle and Standstill, and Karn [+1] no targets.
Turn 7: They Karn [-2] wish Bridge and cast it (crack Standstill) -> I choose to let Bridge resolve. I play Teferi and [-3] to bounce Bridge and kill their Karn with Dreadnought. (my Karn and Ashiok are doing things, but don't really matter for this turn)
Turn 8: They re-deploy Bridge, play LED, and Nature's Claim my Dreadnought -> I choose to let Claim resolve. I Karn [-2] wish Scroll, play Scroll, pass.
Turn 9: They play Karn -> I counter; on their EoT I activate Scroll and put in Dread #2 face-down...
Turn 10 and beyond: from this point all paths lead to my victory.

crispymelee

12-09-2019, 12:50 AM

2-3 --> Drop, out of 6 rounds tonight at the Knightware tonight. 62 players. Very disappointed in general by how I played in general. List for the night here (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/?cb=1575870665).

Round 1 (L, 0-2) vs. UR PainterStone
G1: I mull to 5 on the draw, he mulls to 6. I have no permission in hand for his explosive opening of Ancient Tomb --> Petal --> Emry. Thought I'd have a chance to get back into the game after a T2 Standstill, but don't draw any relevant answers when he breaks it with Grindstone. Soon he accelerates into a Karn and I'm able to Stifle the first attempt to activate Grindstone, but don't have anything to stop or otherwise slow him down from going off.

Sideboarding: + Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, E. Tutor; - Supreme Verdict x2, Search for Azcanta.

G2: On the play and I keep a hand with Nought, Scroll, Factory, and Standstill. He goes T1 Goblin Welder, T2 Servant which eats a FoW, but I end up with nothing for his T3 Grindstone. With no STP or permission, he's able to combo off via Petals and Tomb, Welding the Grindstone in response to activating its ability, bringing Painter back into play before Grindstone resolves.

Round 2 (L, 0-2) vs. BUG Oko stuff
G1: In what ends up being a theme for the night, I mull to 5 on the play after consecutive no-landers. Despite the rough start, T2 Nought sticks and runs over a Plague Engineer, putting him at 11. I'm okay with trading the Nought for damage, because I have a Standstill in hand and Factory on the board. Once again though, I draw nothing relevant when it breaks, and he's eventually able to recover through Oko and GSZ grabbing a Leovold. He eventually runs me over with a mob of assorted beaters.

Sideboarding: + Humility, Pithing Needle, E.Tutor; - Search for Azcanta, Spell Snare, Karn, the Great Creator

G2: The game was a complete punt on my part. I'm able to keep his development in check, with the exception of his T1 Carpet of Flowers. Broken Standstills finally draw me permission and removal when I need them. An early Teferi attempt discards a FoW from him, letting me stick a Scroll. I'm able to Manifest (Wasteland) when he Decays the Scroll, but the Manifest gets Elk'd by Oko while I'm tapped out. I draw Needle the turn after and it silences Oko. At this point, Carpet of Flowers takes over the game, allowing him to drop multiple Noble Hiearchs and a Dryad Arbor. I stupidly drop Humility onto the field with no Factory in play, and while I'm able to drop three Noughts onto the board, I don't get another Teferi to bounce my Humility back (Disenchant stayed in the SB).

Round 3 (W, 2-0) vs. WB Land Tax/Rack
G1: He's on the play and opens the game with Leyline of Sanctity, and drops Land Tax T1. I keep a slower hand with Karn and Standstill, and just bide my time; he doesn't really appear to have any active threats though RiP hits the Table T2; I make sure to hold my FoW and Stifle for Helm. He breaks my Standstill on T3 with a Suppression Field, but has no answer for Karn. Scroll Rack comes too late for him, and his Petal gets killed by Karn. Next turn I wish for Scroll, and eventually am able to Manifest Dreadnought through the Supression Field.

Sideboarding: + Pithing Needle, EE; - Supreme Verdict x2

G2: I mull to 5 on the draw, but the 5 are an ideal Island, Factory, Standstill, Stifle, Nought. It's over quickly as Nought gets "hardcasted" .

Round 4 (W, 2-0) vs. Show n Tell
G1: By far the luckiest win I've had in some time. I keep a risky hand of Plains, Karakas, Scroll, Dreadnought, Teferi, Standstill, Karn, under the premise that any non-Plains land draw within two turns opens up my options tremendously. He goes Ancient Tomb --> Petal --> Ponder --> Petal --> (18) Show and Tell. We both reveal, and he shows a Griselbrand while I reveal the Scroll. End of turn, I manifest Nought. Draw, Karakas --> bounce targeting Griselbrand, he pays the 7 life (11) before it returns to hand. I swing with the Manifest, paying W to "morph" it. GG.

Sideboarding: + Humility, C.Priest; - Search for Azcanta, Supreme Verdict

G2: On the draw and I get another decent hand. An early waste slows down his development, and unfortunately, he's unable to find the mana he needs. Teferi into Karn into wishing for Liquimetal, silencing his Petals while nuking his already slow manabase is too much and he concedes.

Round 5 (L, 1-2) vs. WGU Oko
G1: A very difficult game, mulling to 5 once again. I'm unable to develop a board of much consequence, while his Oko and Knight of the Reliquary simply overwhelm me. GSZ into a Qasali Pridemage for the Scroll I do manage to stick ends any hope of putting up a fight.

Sideboarding: + Humility, E. Tutor, Pithing Needle, Ashiok, Dream Render x2; - Spell Snare x2, Search for Azcanta, Standstill, Karn, the Great Creator

G2: The T2 Nought once again makes an appearance, and Standstills once again shine in protecting it. He didn't see much G1, so was unprepared for the Nought G2.

G3: Another game I punted pretty severely. A very tight early game of me countering his Hierarch and StPing his Mother of Runes, goes into each of us trying to land our respective PW's. Oko sticks, and I'm quickly behind as my Scroll and Needle get Elk'd and then Qasali Pridemage'd respectively, and I can't find any StP's or my Verdicts. He swings with a 3/3 Elk and when I try to block it with an activated Factory, I literally forget to declare blockers before tapping it to buff itself. It ends up being costly as I could have lived an extra turn were it not for that.

+ Paper magic will always be fun
+ 12/12's will always be fun
+ Qualified for a random prize draw by playing out 5 rounds
- Oko feels problematic. Based on the eye-test, it felt like somewhere between 10-30% of the room was on UG for him; can't wait to see what the actual numbers were. Aside from Needles and trying to reach him with Factories and SCM, not sure how to answer him. He can very quickly take over a game if not answered and makes playing Scrolls or Noughts feel bad. Generous Gift or Noxious Grasp maybe?
- Questing Beast is a novel and a nuisance rolled up in one.
- I can accept being punished for taking risky lines of play, but losing on the back of simple play mistakes/outright poor decision making & evaluation is very disappointing.

Things I learned/observations:
- Humility does not help vs. Oko; Just as our Factories are 2/2's on activation, his +1 keeps whatever he transforms at 3/3. Any 3/3's that were present BEFORE Humility was played will be 1/1's with no abilities, however.
- With Humility in play, Dryad Arbor is a 1/1 Land Creature that cannot tap for mana.
- If Dreadnought is revealed as a result of Show and Tell, it's triggered ability will trigger.
- With Suppression Field in play, you will NOT have to pay an additional 2 on top of its CMC to turn a Manifest face up (It is a special action, not an activated ability).
- Disappointed I didn't really get to play with Search for Azcanta much. When it came to sideboarding, it was one of the first cards I wanted to drop almost every time. Chalking it up to simply not enough experience with the card to really evaluate when/where I should keep it.
- Engineered Explosives/Ratchet Bomb @ 1 for Carpet of Flowers seems like a must; saw these being run in G2 in every G (and by extension, Oko) deck I saw being played today.

Fox

12-09-2019, 08:13 AM

Painter is a pretty favorable matchup for us, but game 1 it doesn't sound like variance could be overcome. For SB I would be bringing in RiP, and would consider Disenchant. Cuts would be -1 SCM, -1 Mana Leak. Your list needs to get rid of Fluster or Needle for a Tormod's in the SB at some point; with your list here I'd be much happier attacking the yard [and hitting potential Goblin Engineer] with Ashiok than Needle.
Game 2 if you had FoW for Welder, that probably should have been your target; FoW vs Painter accomplishes very little. There's only so much you can do if you don't find the interaction like Plow, but in matchups like these I rarely invest resources to challenge their combo pieces early. Given how all-in and mana-intensive their combo is, I prefer letting them go off before moving to disrupt it.

Never cut Search or Karn vs Oko (they get food, you [+1] and food dies). I think Needle is among the most suspect cards as a baseline, but I definitely dislike it vs Oko; like, if you're winning you can Karn [-2] and grab it, but you're playing from behind if you're in a Needle vs Oko fight (if Needle had flash, I'd be okay with it vs Oko as they'd end up wasting a turn).
Game 1 sounds like you should have not attacked with Dreadnought -> play Standstill and run Factory into Engineer until your opponent blocks. If you're playing UR Dreadstill, perhaps we attack with Nought first, but damage isn't really that relevant for other color combinations unless they are going to zero life.
For SB vs them (given what I can say about their list from your post): +2 Ashiok, +1 C. Priest, +1 Cursed Scroll; -1 Mana Leak, -1 Nought, -1 other (I'd cut either a Scroll or Plow).

Game 3 everything seems good. I'm fine with Needle here b/c of how slow/janky their deck is (Needle buys time against a deck with very limited ability to pressure).

Game 4 sounds good as well, but for SB you should always look straight at Spell Snare coming out. The 6 cards I want to take out are Snare x2, Verdict x2, StP x2. I want to bring in Ethersworn, Fluster, Needle (Grisel), C. Priest, Humility, E. Tutor. I'm still looking at 2x Ashiok as a function of attacking mana as a legitimate strategy, if you wanted to do that.

Game 5 I don't like Humility (you nailed the reason why in your post) and I dislike Needle. E Tutor is fine, but we should be seeing RiP. They play GSZ, so C. Priest is coming in, Cursed Scroll for Mother of Runes and others. So that's 4 cards coming in, so I'd take out something like -1 Standstill, -1 Snare, -1 Mana Leak, -1 FoN.

Concerning Carpet of Flowers, this deck doesn't really need two blue mana on board all that much so you should be fighting Carpet on this axis. While EE is fine, you don't ever bring it in to fight a card like Carpet specifically. The thought process should be more along the lines of "Foody Elks have cmc 0, Hierarch and Mother have cmc 1, Oko has cmc 3..." ~ what you really want to be doing is asking whether or not you want a StP to come out for EE as a StP-like card with bonus effects.

crispymelee

12-09-2019, 08:50 PM

Match review/snip

Thank you as always for your insight and advice. Makes me wanna re-evaluate when I think about jumping off the UW train. It's funny what you say about Tormod's since it was actually due to a list error that I didn't run it - I realized my registered list didn't match what I was playing, so I had to take out the Tormod's and put back Flusterstorm (I expected to run into more Storm)

Yea, for that second game against Painter, the FoW was what I drew into on my own T2, so had nothing to answer the Wlder. I'm also gonna remember that G1 vs Show and Tell for a long, long time.

I'm getting more comfortable just playing the game and managing the mechanics relevant to the list which I think is the biggest thing. It's a question now of optimizing the time I do have to practice for best results.

The field can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33203-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Real-Estate-Sunday-12-08-2019-20-25-trop-tundra). I'm mistakenly listed as "UW Standstill". I'll run the numbers on it and edit this post later.

@colo: way to go on breaking even man. That's not sarcasm either aha.

Fox

12-14-2019, 07:27 PM

Three rounder today w/ 9 decks (odd man out on colorless Eldrazi decided to sit out, so only 8 decks): Gobbos, B/R Reanimator, TES, 4c SnowOko, 4c mir'Oko'les, UWr Blade, Bomberman, and manifest destiny. All 3 die rolls lost.

R1 vs B/R Reanimonster (2-1): In all games he has no Chancellor in opener, in all games I let Looting resolve. Game 1 I'm able to make a Dreadnought and force him to go all in on Ashen Rider (exile Nought), and opponent ends up losing as I topdeck a Plow (Factory gets there). Game 2 he has a perfect 6 to barely make a Grisel with an Reanimate and restocks to 7 card hand. This game goes on pretty long, but I think I was supposed to let him hit me 1x with Grisel (he Entomb'd a second) and go for a Stifle on the draw 7 as this would allow an E-Tutor for Crypt followed by Plow Grisel. It's a relatively long game but he's able to get there by nuking 2x lands with Ashen + Therapy (otherwise I'd have stabilized with Teferi or Verdict). Game 3 he can't keep pace with my counterspells and Factory gets there.

R2 vs UWr Blade (1-0-1): Game 1 their hand lined up just a little better and they found both of their 2x CJ to keep Karn from taking over. Game 2 they get massacred by Wasteland/PWs/Azcanta and they're 100% dead but I'm 1 dmg short of killing them on turn 4 of turns. Counting this one as a tie.

R3 vs UWgr mir'Oko'les (2-0): Game 1 their Oko gets made into a dude (Karn + Coating) into a Verdict, so they bounce to hand to protect [Karakas]; their next turn they use all mana on Entreat x=3. I untap and wish Ratchet and nuke 3 angels and a food out of the game; they will never get back to green for Oko and scoop (their 2x Astrolabe on board were cute however). Game 2 we're on mull to 6 [them] vs mull to 5 [me], but again they run into vs Karn/Coating and are forced to scoop. In game 2 I prioritized killing white mana first b/c Oko has no text vs Karn when no Astro are on the table.

It's really tedious to play against Blade with the whole locking their yard off before advancing a gameplan, but the matchup is fine. Oko decks require much less mental energy to deal with, and I've not been impressed by the card against us so far (with and without Wrenn). Karn is particularly brutal for them, particularly when they lack Bolt. The Teferi alongside Oko they play also looks pretty embarrassing against manlands [or Karn +1 on an artifact + attack Teferi]. It's unfortunate that there is no profitable way to put a damper on Astrolabe stuff profitably before Karn, but really do consider playing him in any presentation of Dreadnought at this time. Shenanigans should also probably be in your SB at this time, if you're red.

crispymelee

01-04-2020, 12:46 PM

Hope all the Noughty boys had a great New Year's and holiday season!

Looking forward at the local on Tuesday, gonna be switching to a UR build to see how it feels with Okos running around (Red Elemental Blast). Other than that development, not really changing too many things from my last UR build other than messing with the sideboard to try and integrate Karn into UR. That being said, SB still feels like a mess; felt like I had to run at least 2x Karn to justify the artifacts in the board, though I'd love to have a second TNN instead. I also saw that non-UW builds were running a Dismember or two; where does that card come into play for us? As always, any and all feedback is appreciated.

MD
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Prismatic Vista
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Mountain

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Delver of Secrets
1x True-name Nemesis

4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm

3x Scroll of Fate
3x Standstill
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Karn, the Great Creator

SB
1x Liquimetal Coating
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
2x Spell Pierce
2x Shenanigans

Fox

01-04-2020, 01:28 PM

Prefer 2x Volc, 1x Mountain; 2x Mountain will generate too many dead hands without Astrolabe (which you don‘t have room for). If you lack Volc #2 I‘d advise experimenting with either Steam Vents or some other UR dual. The lack of continuous red commitment (i.e. no Lavamancer) makes 3x Volc (Vista to blue Fetches, -1 Island) likely most ideal build.

TNN as a 1x is unlikely to be a big difference maker, would prefer TNN x2 SB and 1x Borrower main (if staying slot neutral). In SB split Tormods and Surgical. If you‘re looking for another maindeck slot, Karn allows 1 Dreadnought to the SB. In SB it looks like extra slots are second copies of Spell Pierce, Ashiok, and Shenanigans (option to move down to 1x yard hate if you just want Tormods). With Karn around, you don‘t need to care that much about artifact destruction.

Other SB ideas include Izzet Staticaster, Sulfur Elemental, Meekstone/E-Bridge, Ballista/Cursed Scroll, Torpor Orb, Alpine Moon, Crucible. On Dismember, the card is quite bad against too many decks to run mainboard; there are better SB options (particularly with wish options).

Rood

01-05-2020, 12:11 AM

Tournament report: Today we had the ELD Legacy Open 1/4/20 with a rather lower turnout of 18 players. Still 5 rounds to cut to top 8. Before I go any further I actually have morphed into black splash dreadstill over the recent weeks. The Surge of Goyf, Abrupt Decay, and Oko has made bolt and red in general feel extremely lackluster. My new list

3 Scroll of Fate
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bitterblossom

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Dismember
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Divert
1 Bitterblossom
3 Mystical Dispute

I was finding misdirection to be a liability in this new BUG infested meta specifically delver so I opted to switch back to Divert for a less taxing answer for now. Bitterblossom was sweet for me all day..The Mystical Disputes are mostly for Show and Tell but also can come in vs Oko snow control or 4c. My matchups

R1: BUG Control w/astrolabe:1-1-1 (Draw)- Match was extremely tight it is worth noting that in g3 I had him dead on board but couldn't close it out in the time needed to finish. Still overall, felt pretty great about this new deck list to combat BUG meta.

R2: Humans 2-1- Matchup was a grind. At one point in g3 I blew up 4 of his creatures with EE. Card was MVP in this matchup

R3: BUG Aluren 2-1- His list is just an absolutely attrition warhouse of Strixes, Therapies, etc. We grind him out g3 on the back of Bitterblossom and Delvers. Divert was also very good at redirecting an abrupt decay

R4: BUG Delver 2-0- This matchup is very good for me as postboard I get 7 1 mana spot removals to deal with Goyf and friends. Scroll of Fate won me every game in this round

R5 Show and Tell ID- I'm already sitting comfortable undefeated at 3-0-1 so I elect to ID in and save my mind for the T8.

TOP 8 UB Show and Tell 2-0- Two very quick games. He had a transformational sideboard that I was aware of consisting of a Delver package so I brought in Dismembers. G1 I kill him turn 3 with Scroll.

TOP 4 UGB Hogaak 0-2- I wasn't on Leylines in my board so this matchup was rough. He has an absolutely nuts hand in g1 and kills me on turn 3 with a quick Alter combo. G2 was extremely close came down to a situational play where I misjudged forcing a Vengevine thinking he was going to sacrifice it to Altar. Overall this matchup has never been good and I think you really need Leyline to efficiently stop this MU well.

So overall 3rd place and 140$ Store credit. This list is absolutely insane. I would recommend it to try out for you guys. -Rood

Seymour_Asses

01-05-2020, 07:06 AM

Tournament report

Damn, that list looks great! Do you think you might want some more grave hate in the side though?

Fox

01-05-2020, 08:38 AM

Nice work @Rood. How did the Spell Pierces work vs Thoughteize? Looks like your list might need a bit more vs Depths and Chalice in the SB.

@Seymour_Asses 3x Surgical puts this list pretty far past what most other decks run, and like @Rood pointed out, swapping to Leylines (one of the few ways to really up the ante) is a bit on the overkill side. A card to consider however would be Nihil Spellbomb. Anti-Fetch Ashiok is also pretty good. Most GY-centric combo will do something worse than a Dreadnought + disruption/protection when it comes to racing, which is effectively yard hate.

Seymour_Asses

01-05-2020, 09:07 AM

Rood

01-05-2020, 12:29 PM

I wasnt expecting any Hogaak if i was id of been on 4 Leyline. Surgical just doesnt do enough. Swapping out Snares for Pierces is correct now because of the need to counter hand disruption and Oko. We arent needing to counter Goyf w snare having access to push now. I do want some # of Plague Engineer. Probably will try to fit 2 in.

@Fox- It's a meta call really. I wasnt expecting any lands or Depths. The meta has basically morphed into like BUG everything then randomly I face a few other stuff. Oko and Veil have totally changed the entire landscape right now. I will say Thoughtseize feels rather bad right now with how many people are maindecking Veils. Also sitting under a standstill and drawing it is even worse. I did test it a little bit though.

@crispy- Right now Red blast is fine against Oko postboard but it's the problem of everyone being on Veil and Goyf that's making Mountain feel REAL bad. That's why I ultimately opted to switch to black. Not being able to deal with a 3/4 Lurgoyf feels real bad man. Also im totally off off Force of Negation now. The amount of card disadvantage has been feeling real bad. I haven't missed it once since I dropped it. I'm learning towards the card is severely crippling in the resource department.

Seymour_Asses

01-05-2020, 02:39 PM

Is Reanimator not a problem?

crispymelee

01-05-2020, 04:05 PM

Is Reanimator not a problem?

On my typical UW build (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/), Reanimator hasn't felt too bad. Between the extensive permission list and 4x StP/3x SCM, it wasn't often that I felt like I had no answers to early attempts to go off.

That being said, the archetype as a whole does struggle against Dredge because we don't have a lot of interaction with their main engines pre-board, and post-board, it becomes a race of "who goes off first/do we find hate if we dont". I've recently gotten my hands on some Surgical Extractions, so that'll certainly take the place of the Needle in the SB.

It comes down to "What's in your meta?". If you have large percentages of the player pool running Dredge/Reanimate, then something like Leyline of the Void may make more sense, compared to my meta where its population (<10%) doesn't justify the niche (but very strong) hate, and more flexible hate like Tormods/Relic/Ashiok/Nihil/C.Priest are better uses of the sideboard slots.

@Rood:Thanks for the input! UW/UR the only realistic options for me since I don't have any USeas unfortunately. Cool use of BBlossom; always wanted to find an excuse to sling one around somewhere. Never thought I'd see one in a Dreadstill list.
- Seems like a low investment engine/threat to further your Delvers and Noughts getting in.
- Feels similar to CB, where ppl may (unnecessarily) burn resources on it
- Left on it's own, will take over a game, make life hell for enemy PW's.
- Have you had any issues with life between BB's, Dismember, and Surgicals? Or are opponents just dead before it matters?

EDIT: fixed grammar.

Seymour_Asses

01-05-2020, 04:39 PM

On my typical UW build (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/), Reanimator hasn't felt too bad. Between the extensive permission list and 4x StP/3x SCM, it wasn't often that I felt like I had no answers to early attempts to go off.

That being said, the archetype as a whole does struggle against Dredge because we don't have a lot of interaction with their main engines pre-board, and post-board, it becomes a race of "who goes off first/do we find hate if we dont". I've recently gotten my hands on some Surgical Extractions, so that'll certainly take the place of the Needle in the SB.

It comes down to "What's in your meta?". If you have large percentages of the player pool running Dredge/Reanimate, then something like Leyline of the Void may make more sense, compared to my meta where its population (<10%) doesn't justify the niche (but very strong) hate, and more flexible hate like Tormods/Relic/Ashiok/Nihil/C.Priest

Thanks! I was thinking about UR/UB so the removal is different, but yeah I don't see as much Reanimator or Dredge these days either so Leyline might not be the best option. I was wondering what pushed them out.

KobeBryan

01-05-2020, 04:47 PM

Thanks! I was thinking about UR/UB so the removal is different, but yeah I don't see as much Reanimator or Dredge these days either so Leyline might not be the best option. I was wondering what pushed them out.

I think they should be strong in this meta. No one is play gy hate

Rood

01-05-2020, 06:19 PM

Fatal Push is a perfect card with Standstill. Destroying huge bodies for B is pretty key. I think Bolts worse then its ever been right now.

jiazhouhuaqiao

01-11-2020, 03:43 PM

crispymelee

01-11-2020, 06:56 PM

My deck is coming together, going uw for now

What are your thoughts about these cards (in 75) ~
Grand Abolisher - is the ww casting cost a major problem? Otherwise gives many of the advantages of T3feri.
Hushbringer
Unsettled Mariner

WW will always be difficult to pull. A resilient and reliable manabase is one the strengths of Dreadstill, and trying to pull off WW for an effect that Small Teferi can do seems lacklustre; you'll inevitably need to expose yourself to Wasteland to stick him. He just fits better in a Prison or DnT-style deck.

Hushbringer was discussed (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8964-Deck-Dreadstill-Enter-the-Fist&p=1075875&viewfull=1#post1075875) when it was spoiled a few pages back. It has a nice effect, but is easier to remove than Torpor Orb.

Not sure if Mariner really fits in what were trying to do as UW. Might make things inconvenient for Oko decks, but it seems more like a speedbump than a real answer. Mind posting the rest of your list? Might give more insight on how some of those selections may synergize with your plan.

UW as a whole plays a lot like Landstill, in that we're trying to manage and control the game, until we can dictate the pace of the game and lock our opponent into an unwinnable situation. The Stifle/Dread combo gives us the flexibility to "accidentally" win and a speedy clock once we do seize control of the game.

Fox

01-11-2020, 08:23 PM

My deck is coming together, going uw for now

What are your thoughts about these cards (in 75) ~
Grand Abolisher - is the ww casting cost a major problem? Otherwise gives many of the advantages of T3feri.
Hushbringer
Unsettled Mariner

Grand Abolisher is easy to kill, not blue, able to be elk'd, plays into Wrath, and doesn't answer things like Chalice. Teferi is a card you need to buy if you're on UW. There are more interactions which Teferi can do, but those are among the most important.
Hushbringer/Tocatli/Hushwing all play into Wrath and removal, and are just less powerful than Scroll of Fate. You can also get their effect by Karn [-2] for Torpor Orb (so you don't have to draw a potentially dead card).
Unsettled Mariner is played in heavy creature count decks (Cavern/Vial).
^this all is based on my build; like @crispymelee says, we'd need to see your list. All the cards you're naming make it sound like you're really trying hard to make Dreadnoughts, and if you fail to do that, you lose. The luxury of UW is that you don't need to care about making them to win games. One of the main dangers of the cards you're listing off is that they all really put you behind vs Goyf, and the 'dies to Goyf' test is really important to pass at the point of deck construction.
---
On Theros Beyond Death:
Almost no cards are really standing out, but I've only gone over the rares and mythics. The only one of interest is Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, but it's wildly overpriced, certainly as long as Oko is legal, so expect that price to crash from the ~$30 it's at now. Elspeth is like a thing you could do, and it's recursive, but uh...seems pretty dubious.

In terms of UG Dreadnought, we're getting closer to playable. The main problem is the lack of defensible 1cmc removal (so no Standstill), and the spin-off problem is that Oko can't be played b/c UG doesn't have a way to deal with Elks given to opponents (and Factory isn't playing well vs 3/3 either). You could play Dismember and try Standstill, but that's too much life loss.

Your creature package would be Dreadnoughts, Ice-Fang (best removal possible), and Uro. You would get to play maindeck Veil of Summers, but likely would not be able to play Daze. There would still be holes in the deck, but Lotus Field looks a whole lot better once Uro arrives. Spam Uro into play (it's basically uncounterable in 3 mana form), dump Lotus Field into play, sac 2 lands = 2 cards closer to escape...and this is when you're not using Stifle of Sundial for Lotus Field. This is close to where I'd start:

Misty x4
Vista x4
Wasteland x4
Snow-covered Island x3
Snow-covered Forest x2
Tropical Island x1
Lotus Field x2

Dreadnought x4
Ice-Fang x4
Uro x3

Karn, the Great Creator x2
Nissa, Vital Force x2 (this does stupid things with Lotus Field)

Brainstorm x4
FoW x4
Stifle x4
Veil of Summer x3
FoN x2
Noxious Revival x1
Crop Rotation x1

Azcanta x1
Sylvan x1
Sundial x1
Scroll of Fate x2
EE-type card x1

SB to include:
Tormods
Crucible
Scroll of Fate
Liquimetal Coating
EE-type card
Karakas
Force of Vigor

I don't think you can really get away with Astrolabe playsets + Dreadnought unless you're doing something with Welder. I think the deck is pretty close to playable. There's technically an option to play Thing in the Ice, but so much of legacy is playing ETB value scummers already so probably not the best idea.

jiazhouhuaqiao

01-12-2020, 01:55 PM

My thoughtline with Abolisher is it's about the only case that really abuses the fact that unmorphing doesn't use the stack. So if you start your turn with a Manifested Abolisher on the board, your opponent has zero window to interact on your turn since they can't respond to you unmorphing the Abolisher. So whatever interaction they held in their hand, like flashing in Coatl, or Terminus on your turn, stays stuck.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to leverage the Settler's Changeling powers. What I like is that he makes your opponent's Wastelands cost 1 to activate, and he also really pushes Daze's usefulness.

Not sure when I'll get some real playing in, since next week is going to be hijacked by TBD prerelease. My deck is pretty standard except I'm trying Ancient Tombs instead of Wastelands (Wastelands are kind of frowned upon in my meta). Should be able to drop T3feri on T2 consistently, we'll see.

Interesting take on ug. I have my eye on Uros but more as a Cascade target in Modern.

Fox

01-12-2020, 05:15 PM

crispymelee

01-12-2020, 05:58 PM

/snip

VERY interesting that your meta has something against what is a pretty long-established card in Wasteland. I understand that people don't like being able to play their fun and shiny spells, but this is Legacy, where Factories, Duals, Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, and a myriad of utility lands (Karakas, Thespians Stage, Dark Depths, Maze of Ith, etc.etc.) would run rampant without some kind of check.

Also, I think I'm missing something here - how does a Tomb power out small Teferi on T2? Unless we're in Bant and have Noble Hierarchs running about, or using Petals/some artifact filter (Chromatic Sphere/Star? Mana Cylix?), I'm not seeing how we're ramping into early Teferi.

jiazhouhuaqiao

01-12-2020, 07:14 PM

crispymelee

01-16-2020, 07:13 PM

1) Astrolabe
2) Skycloud Expanse or possibly Interplanar Beacon although that's doubtful

I am in Bant for Once Upon a Time to help dig for Ancient Tomb or whatever land.

Just found this deck that has basically the land base I'm using, except with a snow Forest instead of the 2nd snow Plain, and I have 2 Factories: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-azorius-mentor#paper

My mind missed the most obvious answer. :tongue: By the way, post that list! Would help everyone here give insight on options you could try.

Got to play several rounds against a Miracles deck last night using my UR build. Felt pretty close to even, but would have preferred playing against him on UW. Two things felt like I absolutely could not let them resolve; CB and Mentor. With only Karn'd EE pre-board & REB/Brazen Borrower post-board to deal with the former, and Bolts (didnt side in Dismember) for the latter, either of those permanents sticking became a huge issue. Mentor just got out of hand, and the clustering of low-cmc spells in UR didn't help if a CB landed; having a hand of Delver x2, Nought, Stifle x2 vs CB felt awful.

Conversely, Manifests and Scroll in general felt amazing, as did Factory; despite that, I found myself wishing for UW as Small Teferi + Factory/Scroll still seems like the optimal way to abuse Scroll and manlands. I'm thinking instead of 2x Ashiok from the side, I might go for an even split of Narset/Ashiok if I run UR in the future. Overall, got some good practice with UR. Definitely starting to understand better why Fox relates UWx.deks with graveyard decks; between SCM, AK, and Mystic Sanctuary, there's a lot they lose out on with access to that resource.

Rood

01-16-2020, 09:58 PM

With the rise in Show/Tell and snow control ive been maindecking 2 Mystical Dispute. Cards pretty gas.. also hits the UG Strix and UB.

Seymour_Asses

01-17-2020, 12:02 AM

With the rise in Show/Tell and snow control ive been maindecking 2 Mystical Dispute. Cards pretty gas.. also hits the UG Strix and UB.

Are you still running UB? If so, how's it going?

Rood

01-20-2020, 04:51 AM

We did it boys. First 5-0 on MTGO League. Trophy time! Was on UR for this specific league and the deck felt really sweet. Quick analysis report...I've been on UB Dreadstill on MTGO for the past week or two and I've loved the deck (Top 3 at ELDs) online I have missed True-Name nemesis and specifically abrade in the sideboard. So I made the swap back to UR Dreadstill and my results so far have been excellent.

MUs were

2-1 Belcher
2-0 Infect
2-1 MUD Ramp w/ Karn and Mystic Forge 2-1
2-0 Esper Mentor
2-0 Storm

Decklist will be posted on their site in due time. Back on top :D

4x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x FOW
4x Bolt
3x TNN
1x Scroll of Fate
4x Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x REB
2x Abrade
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x EE
2x Back to Basics
2x Dismember
2x Agent of Treachery

Now before you ask...yes my list is warped towards the hostile online meta a tad bit...alot of Show and Tell and chalice.

KobeBryan

01-20-2020, 12:23 PM

Tobitzki

01-20-2020, 01:10 PM

4x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x FOW
4x Bolt
3x TNN
1x Scroll of Fate
4x Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x REB
2x Abrade
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x EE
2x Back to Basics
2x Dismember
2x Agent of Treachery

Great job Rood, congrats!! I've been off of Dreadnoughts myself since the W6 ban and have joined the vanilla UR Delver horde for the time being--I don't trust Standstill in a local meta full of tempo decks, with Pushes, Swords, and Decay all having gone up in %. Gonna try some Phoenix lists next, but before long I'll get back to the beloved 12/12s.

Some unexpected choices in your list: What made you fall out of love with the Scroll? Just too slow for combo MUs? Is it not still one of our best responses to Chalice/Trinisphere, especially since Moon Stompy has started replacing MD Abrades with the Stomp Giant? And what's the reasoning behind running Snares over Pierces + Force#5 (especially since you mention S&S), TNN over Brazen Bouncer (since you mention Chalice)? Has Oko been hated out of the MtgO meta for the time being?

Seymour_Asses

01-20-2020, 02:33 PM

Agent of Treachery...?

Rood

01-20-2020, 03:29 PM

Do you really need 4 spell snares?

I think black has a better matchup against a general field, but black can't kill artifacts

Black cant beat a resolved ensnaring bridge. Possibly 2-3 Brazen Borrowers can fix this

Agents are for online meta of like 30% Show and Tell

crispymelee

01-20-2020, 04:03 PM

@Rood: congrats man! Always putting up the results with the big boys. I'm also really interested in the move down to 1x Scroll in the main; does the online meta really demand that? Cool call on the Agent inclusion.

Do you really need 4 spell snares?

I think black has a better matchup against a general field, but black can't kill artifacts

@Kobe: it's this very reason why I think a UB build with Karn is worth looking into. On that note, managed to get my hands on my first Underground Sea :)

Also, Oko, hated out? Please let me know how haha (Display of Dominance, CJudgment, REB?).

Seymour_Asses

01-20-2020, 04:11 PM

Agents are for online meta of like 30% Show and Tell

Oh shit, nice tech!

Rood

01-20-2020, 04:56 PM

I had gotten a few 4-1 finishes with the UB build but couldnt get over the hump. TNN just beats 80% of fair strategies whereas Scroll is good but i found it hard in fair MUs to have the resources to pitch (Delver). I also want to point out I only like TNN in bolt decks

KobeBryan

01-20-2020, 08:17 PM

Oh shit, nice tech!

You should use gilded drake instead. At least you can cast it

Rood

01-20-2020, 08:20 PM

The problem is most of these builds are Omnishow. So Drake wont work

Fox

01-20-2020, 08:42 PM

You should use gilded drake instead. At least you can cast it
That doesn't steal Omniscience though.

Lava Snacks

01-20-2020, 09:27 PM

Agents are for online meta of like 30% Show and Tell

It's funny how much matchup variance comes into play in leagues. I've only played in a handful of leagues the last couple of months, but I haven't played Show & Tell once.

Someone needs to do an analysis of when certain types of players play. There really might be something to do, like if Europe has a different meta, or if combo players are morning or night people. I'd totally use that info to dodge things :cool:

crispymelee

01-20-2020, 10:55 PM

It's funny how much matchup variance comes into play in leagues. I've only played in a handful of leagues the last couple of months, but I haven't played Show & Tell once.

Someone needs to do an analysis of when certain types of players play. There really might be something to do, like if Europe has a different meta, or if combo players are morning or night people. I'd totally use that info to dodge things :cool:

I feel fairly certain that if MtG follows the same metagame conventions that SSBM, SFV, and OW do, their meta will certainly differ. Different format (standard), but I remember it was mentioned in a quote with a European (German?) MtG player that one tended to see higher land counts in their lists because "We like playing our spells more". :laugh:

That being said, I can't imagine their metas being significantly different from what we have going on here.

Rood

01-24-2020, 12:35 AM

Just finished my 2nd 5-0 MTGO league back on the Scroll build...Been trying both the TNN and Scroll build...both seem excellent right now. This was the list I tested for the league.

4x Dreadnought
4x Delver
4x Stifle
4x Spell Pierce
4x Daze
4x FOW
4x Brainstorm
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Standstill
4x Polluted delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island

SB:
1x Blood Moon
3x Agent of Treachery
2x Dismember
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Abrade
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Tormod's Crypt

GY decks seem to be very uncommon...though I did face one reanimator player on this specific league. Matchups were

2-0 UWx Snow Control
2-0 UGR Chalice Lands
2-1 BR reanimator
2-0 Elves!
2-0 UG Snow Oko control

Overall definitely a successful campaign for the Dreadnought crew. Got the 2nd Trophy...Near the top of the fresh leaderboard season with Dreadstill. LFG

Fox

01-24-2020, 08:57 AM

Nice work! How many times did Oko come down and +1 Scroll into a 3/3 and insta-rip to 5-7 power (7 if Factory as well as 2/2)? :cool:

frustanani

01-24-2020, 02:33 PM

KobeBryan

01-24-2020, 02:46 PM

Nice work! How many times did Oko come down and +1 Scroll into a 3/3 and insta-rip to 5-7 power (7 if Factory as well as 2/2)? :cool:

I don't get this line

Fox

01-24-2020, 03:10 PM

I don't get this line

Tap out for Oko, [+1] on Scroll, response make a 2/2. Hit Oko for 5, option for 7 with Factory, option for 17 dmg one shot if face-down Dreadnought and Factory.

KobeBryan

01-24-2020, 03:38 PM

Tap out for Oko, [+1] on Scroll, response make a 2/2. Hit Oko for 5, option for 7 with Factory, option for 17 dmg one shot if face-down Dreadnought and Factory.

I see...with 3 different creatures.

Fox

01-24-2020, 03:56 PM

I see...with 3 different creatures.
Yeah, that’s kinda the reason we don’t care too much about Oko; we can go from 0 power on board [sort of, when it comes to Factory] to Oko dies immediately afterwards (happening on the turn they cast him). Everywhere else in legacy people are playing cowardly/anemic ETB value nonsense or threats which, while big enough, are generally coming off too slow of a delivery mechanism (i.e. sorc speed with summoning sickness) to outpace an Oko, so he just wins all by himself.

Rood

01-24-2020, 04:03 PM

I one shot two Oko players by blinking in Dread when he tried to zap my scroll into a 3/3.

Tobitzki

01-25-2020, 11:57 AM

@Rood: Since you've been doing well in short succession with maxing out on Spell Snares and then Pierces. What's been the verdict for you so far?

Fox

01-25-2020, 12:09 PM

@Rood: Since you've been doing well in short succession with maxing out on Spell Snares and then Pierces. What's been the verdict for you so far?

A big part of that answer is “what is your combo?” If you’re on UR, everything is pointed at count to 20 [Dreadnought as quad-Bolt = 1-hit Dreadnought]. If you look at his UB build, there is no reach so games are going longer [2-shot Dreadnought]. If you’re on UR, it’s way more important to kill SCM and Strix/Ice-Fang on the stack to make sure you can push damage through.

It is much more important to stop an Oko from coming down (Pierce to protect Scroll) when you are trying to grind out wins on position rather than life total.

Rood

01-25-2020, 12:27 PM

Both are fine cards...I really like Snare vs Snow alot which I see alot now. I switched to Pierce because Snare is really bad against S&T which I was seeing alot.

Fox

01-25-2020, 08:44 PM

Went 3-1 today. Decks in room were SnT, Elves!, 4c SnowOko, DETH, KassariPost, UR Delver, B/R Reanimator, BUG Dreadnought, and manifest destiny.

Round 1 it finally happened, my first ever [not intentional] Dreadnought mirror! Game 1 I'm on the play and opponent opens with Gemstone Caverns, and I'm already putting them on the 12/12 or Merfolk; sure enough Dreadnought gets exiled for the luck counter. I play Island pass, opponent will go on to turn 1 a Dreadnought. My turn is Fetch -> basic Plains into make my own 12/12. Opponent topdecks Decay and hits for 12. I deploy land #3 and use Teferi to bounce. Game goes on for about 15 turns, and I eventually deploy another Dreadnought and win. Game 2 we both leave our Torpor Orbs in the SB :laugh: and we go on to play a fairly ridiculous amount of draw-go, but I'm eventually sitting behind superior manlands (Factory vs occasional Mutavault), Powder Keg (counters=0), and a JVP that I'm only tapping in response to a removal spell. Eventually a Scroll comes along under a Teferi and that's game.

Their deck was not really the best shell for Dreadnought; most of it was 16 slots of Dreadnought/Stifle/Trickbind/Tale's End, but the other half was a bit of a mismatch with discard (Seize and Duress), Smallpox, and Decay. If you took out the Smallpox for Hunted Horror and 4 Stifle effects for Scroll, the deck might fare a little better. The black-green core (no FoW, no Bstorm, no Standstill) had no issue going towards hellbent, but there was no card advantage engine/benefit for doing so (Uro there would have been a decent fit). The Smallpox stuff is kinda okay, but I think if you're doing this kinda stuff you just try to win off PWs full of Murderous Riders rather that Stifle and Nought. Pretty silly games though, with a very different tempo than normal legacy games; we had many multi-turn cycles both going draw-pass.

Round 2 vs SnT (0-2): game 1 they SnT Emmy into play and my cantrips fail to find Teferi or Karakas or Verdict and they're a little too high on life to win with a Dreadnought attacking back. Game 2 we're both on a mull to 6 and they manage to go off turn 2 through a Wasteland and put Emmy into play again (no blue card for FoW). Plenty of backbreaking answers, just didn't find them.

Round 3 vs KassariPost (2-1): game 1 they die to turn 2 Dreadnought and FoW their Crop Rot [for Maze]. Game 2 they're able to assemble 15 mana for Emmy through 2 Wastelands by around turn 8 or so, but it was fun to bounce Golos with Teferi and have them recast it into an Ashiok. Game 3 I Wasteland their turn 1 Cloudpost and go on to Karn/Coating them out of the game.

Round 4 vs DETH (2-0): game 1 an early Dreadnought gets there. Game 2 they get Karn/Coating locked, but did manage to get Helm/Leyline on board at same time. [DETH = Depths, Tendrils, Helm. Also Painter/Grindstone and Karn and LED/Echo.]

Rood

01-27-2020, 05:03 AM

Great work Fox...movin on up rank #5 on MTGO the fresh leaderboard right now on Dreadstill (Got my 3rd 5-0 MTGO league.) Pretty heavy combo MUs

Storm 2-0
S&T 2-0
Dredge 2-1
Dredge 2-0
S&T 2-0

List hasnt changed much from the last time i posted. I'm preparing for a huge 2k tournament so I'm super happy with the list. I beat both Dredge players g1 so im beginning to think that our new list with Scroll makes us able to be able to race alot easier then we used to. It's not a matchup I've faced often but both times this league it felt pretty good for us. I am back on 3 Surgicals in the board now mostly to deal with Dark Depths. Right now Lands and BUG delver tend to be my hardest matchups. I'm thinking of trying a couple Brazen Borrowers to help.

https://ibb.co/1880ZJp

List

https://ibb.co/Tr1WPq4

I am going to work on a sideboard guide as well because I've had a couple people message me about how to side properly. The deck can be a bit tricky to figure out what to take out.

Mr. Safety

01-27-2020, 06:48 AM

Right now Lands and BUG delver tend to be my hardest matchups. I'm thinking of trying a couple Brazen Borrowers to help.

I definitely encourage you to play Borrowers, at least in the sideboard. I've been playing a 1/1 split between main/side in UB Shadow and it's a game changer for that deck, which is similar to this one. If you ever go with UB again, and you work in Thoughtseize, Borrower gets even better. It is disruption that puts threats back onto the stack, where you have favorable odds of dealing with it. It also gets your threat density higher for grindy decks like Miracles/Grixis/4C Piles.

davide

01-27-2020, 10:26 AM

The best option is to have two different bounce effect, for example I used to play 1 brazen borrower and 1 wipe/away (split second often makes difference )

Fox

01-27-2020, 10:59 AM

The best option is to have two different bounce effect, for example I used to play 1 brazen borrower and 1 wipe/away (split second often makes difference )

Wipe Away hasn’t been played in a number of years; mostly a High Tide and DTT OmniTell wish target. Brazen Borrower is more correct.

Rood

01-27-2020, 01:33 PM

Yeah, I'm going to seriously give Brazen a hard look at. Being able to bounce a 20/20 is pretty relevant.

davide

01-27-2020, 02:14 PM

Wipe Away hasn’t been played in a number of years; mostly a High Tide and DTT OmniTell wish target. Brazen Borrower is more correct.

With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion

Mr. Safety

01-27-2020, 02:21 PM

With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion

I've playtested a ton against Turbo Depths (and I've played the deck myself a ton, it's one of my favorite decks) and the main way for them getting Sejiri Steppe to protect Marit lage is Crop Rotation. With so few spells that count in the matchup, this is definitely the one you counter. If they play Steppe main phase to get Marit Lage past a Delver blocker you play Petty Theft in response. Also, you can Stifle the Steppe trigger or just stifle Hexmage/Stage to buy a turn or more. Wipe Away isn't a worthwhile card anymore, it's just too narrow. EDIT: I meant to say it's too narrow, where Borrower has applications across several matchups.

Fox

01-27-2020, 04:19 PM

With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion

It costs 3 mana, and two of that has a color requirement (we play Wasteland and Factory). When you play Stifle and Brazen, you can let your opponent go all-in with Crop Rot (losing a real land, and losing access to re-upping the combo) for the same :1::u: + :u: and then turn that bounce spell into a blocker or clock, all while being immune to Duress. With Brazen, you're also able to contest a 20/20 on just 2 lands, needing only one blue mana (important in a Daze deck).

In a worst case scenario that you're thinking of, Wipe Away might be the only card that can help...but you actively want your opponent to be sinking more resources into failing to protect a Lage on a routine basis. The only 3 mana card I'd really want to use against Lage is Teferi, because it crushes them (and is proactive).

It's fine to have personal preferences, but Brazen is showing up in decks [across the format] that are winning on a regular basis. They are playing it due to the maindeck playability of an anti-Depths card. They are finding success against Depths, most without also having Stifle. To call Wipe Away more correct than Borrower, the rest of the format should be backing that up.

Here's Wipe Away since Jan.1 2019:
70 SB appearances.
8x Storm
1x Tezz
1x Stax
1x UB Reanimator
59x SnT decks

I will grant you that UB Reanimator is very close to the same thing as Dreadnought, and that Tezz-MUD-Dreadnought are in their own prison vs prison-breaker subformat. Let's note how incredibly unlikely any of these 70 decks are to use Borrower with Wipe Away, as they don't *really* use creature combat. Brazen wasn't a card in January, but it doesn't change that Wipe Away isn't really a Dreadnought card, and we aren't the only deck in legacy that could use Brazen + Wipe Away (if it were a correct thing to be doing).

Edit: 59 SnT, 1x Stax

Rood

01-27-2020, 04:41 PM

Id much rather have Echoing Truth for TES. Brazen is great cuz its a kill factor too

I think wipe is a very narrow option. I even like Snap more

crispymelee

01-30-2020, 07:05 PM

Another grind session against a friend on UW Miracles. Ran both my UR list (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-dread-1/?cb=1580422013) and my UW list (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-dreadstill-3/), regular Bo3 each time. Some observations:
- Brazen Borrower main feels like a must if not on UW; life feels much harder vs a CB or JtMS that sticks, and I imagine there's other permanents that we hate too (EBridge, cheated in fatties)
- 6x "free" counters that are also sources of card disadvantage is a lot; I liked FoN as a 1x a lot more, since exiling something like a CJ so it couldn't be snapped back was nice.
- Locking away their graveyard is a must; between AK, Predict, SCM, and Mystic Sanct., that part of the field was not an insignificant resource to them (thanks Fox)
- I'm unsure what to do with FoWs G2 and 3 in this matchup. More generally, how do you guys approach boarding out "free" counterspells? It was nice to be able to jam Scroll/Teferi/Karn behind Force, but the 1-for-2s really felt like they added up vs all their cantrips, esp. when the games went long.

I recall colo running 4x CB in his mono-U list, and next i practice UR, I'll experiment with it. I'd probably go something like:
- 4 Standstill
- 4 Daze
+ 4 Ponder
+ 4 Counterbalance

If I go that route, makes me feel like I'd want JtMS > Karn, but we'll see. Also will be looking to try Isochron Scepter as part of the karnboard, likely in UW more than UR.

Rood

01-30-2020, 11:26 PM

I never board FOW out vs decks playing Oko. Generally on red splash 3-4 REBs come in and 1-2 Brazens. On white splash maybe Mystical Disputes take that slot. Cards pure gas in that MU

Fox

02-01-2020, 06:57 PM

10 people showed up today for 4 rounds. Decks in the room were Elves!, Eldrazi Stompy (aggro), UR OmniTell, UG SnowOko OmniTell, Ug Stasis, TurboDepths, Grixis Delver, Storm (pretty sure, but definitely don't remember if ANT or TES), DETH, and manifest destiny.

Round 1 vs UR OmniTell (2-0): game 1 he gets locked out by Teferi and a hand with enough countermagic. Game 2 he gets Stifled out of game.

Round 2 vs Eldrazi (2-1): I win the die roll, but ~1 white card short of stabilizing. Game 2 an early Dreadnought gets there. Game 3 Torpor Orb and 2x Dreadnoughts get there. Was able to dodge the Blast Zones in the last games.

Round 3 vs UG SnowOko OmniTell (2-0): game 1 has a slower opening into Scroll, play Dreadnought face-down. In response to attack and flip, opponent casts Cunning Wish and I respond with Brainstorm, they go on top of stack with Veil, and they will eventually get Force of Vigor (exile Veil #2). While Dreadnought and Scroll go down, I still get to make a 2/2, and that clock is enough to win. Game 2 they have an Ice-Fang, I follow up with JVP, and they untap and Oko [+1] my guy. This is the beginning of the end for them, as my Elk vindicates their blocker and is followed up by Scroll of Fate. Oko ends up falling 2 turns later (Teferi bounce Food-Elk) to 2x 2/2s and Factory. They use their last turn to Cunning Wish for Through the Breach at 19 life, and I put Dreadnought in face-down. Topdeck Factory, swing for 19.

Round 4 vs TurboDepths (2-0): game 1 a few Teferi's and an Azcanta vindicate too many Decays from their hand and they die to a Dreadnought, unable to ever go for it vs Wastelands and Stifles in hand. Game 2 they're on a mull to 5 and have to burn too many resources finding new lands (ESG exile, cast Once Upon a Time) vs double Wasteland; over a few turns they die to Mastery of the Unseen putting 4 power on board before they could burn a Petal to Decay Mastery.

On the UG stuff, round 3 pretty well demonstrates why playing Oko without a 3rd color's removal really doesn't work, as you can't really deal with the 3/3 you give an opponent. It's rough though b/c the moment you add a 3rd color, you immediately stop everything you were thinking of doing, and change directly into 4c SnowOko. Staying on 2c is where Uro is the card that kinda has to be looked at, but he only works well with Dreadnought ideas. I still think UG is too weak (being forced to rely on Ice-Fangs), but it's probably not that far off playable.

Rood

02-02-2020, 05:07 AM

Nice work! There are alot of S&T lately. How many scrolls were u on?

Fox

02-02-2020, 07:50 AM

Nice work! There are alot of S&T lately. How many scrolls were u on?
1x main, 1x SB....but I have 2x E Tutor and 2x Karn, so 6. :tongue:

Tobitzki

02-02-2020, 08:19 AM

Fox

02-02-2020, 09:06 AM

@Tobitzki
Looking at Rood's list on pg.1 for a few matchups, here's what I'd be doing:
-DnT: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Dismember, 2x Abrade. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 3x Snare/Daze (could also get behind a -4/-2 split).
-Lands: cut 5 cards for 2x EE, 3x Surgical. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 2x Daze.
-Depths: cut 4 cards for 2x Abrade, 2x EE. Cuts to include 2x Bolt, 2x Standstill.
-Delver: cut 7 cards for 2x Dismember, 2x EE, 3x REB (could add Abrade too, but seems unnecessary). Cuts to include 2x Dreadnought, 2x Scroll, 1x Standstill, 1x FoW, 1x Snare (depending on their build). Good amount of flexibility on this one, but I'd generally be keep Standstill closer to 3x postboard. Kill their dudes, force them to give you 3 cards is too much for them.
-Post: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Abrade (Golos/Map/Chalice), 2x Surgical. Cuts to include 4x Bolt, 2x Standstill. There's a lot of bad cards here, like I kinda want to cut all the Snares too, and Daze isn't amazing either, so maybe 1x Snare out for Surgical #3. Honestly, maybe even Agent of Treachery comes in. Need to be especially careful with Factory deployment sequence vs any deck with Stage.

Not a huge amount of playstyle similarities between UB and UR; the UB builds rely on Dreadnought surviving, while UR will hold Dreadnought in hand longer and be more likely to use it to discard removal away from Delver or Factory. There's a lot more "going for it" with UB, but the printing of Scroll really takes a lot of the risk out. One of the bigger differences is that UB has to be more proactive, but also can't refill its hand. While Ponder is a good card, it's not like there is any mystery behind what you're digging for when Scroll is out and you can't grow hand by >1 card per turn (exception here for Daze returning land). Both builds require perfect recognition of Daze/Wasteland vs Fetch scenarios.

Tobitzki

02-02-2020, 01:27 PM

thanks @Fox, this is super helpful. In all of these MUs I'd feel inclined to take out 1 or 2 extra copies of Standstill otd--or am I too focused on starting hands and the first few turns?

You're generally not wrong about UR vs. UB. But I think you underestimate what an absolute house Thoughtseize was pretty much since the DRS/Probe bans and until the printing of Veil. Especially during the W6 meta, Swords, Push and Decay were at a very manageable level. RUG had very few outs to a resolved 12/12 (and even the 4C-greed builds had a hard time finding one of their 2 Decays while on a 2T clock). Not that much risk involved if you Peek & discard their removal before hardcasting the 12/12. But yea, I've always considered that deck's plan to be turbo-Tempo with Dreadnoughts acting as some kind of Goyf on steriods. Now it's probably unplayable at least until Veil is gone.

Fox

02-02-2020, 02:00 PM

Seize is fine, it's just that you can't really play it with Confidant. The only real CA engine it pairs with is Griselbrand, pulling double duty as Entomb targeting opponent -> play their deck.

On opening hands in UR, you're doing something fundamentally more powerful than most decks so you shouldn't be feeling the need to have amazing opening hands nor try to mulligan to a 'great' six. You also have to let the Factories do their thing with Standstill's support, since they're not really a movable part of your mana base. Undercutting them adds in a good deal more variance to each draw step. Just keep all your cards comboing towards counting to 20 while managing interaction decisions; they all work together towards this goal in the setting of Standstill.

Edit: Confidant also has some lifeloss issues being played alongside Scroll as well.

Tobitzki

02-02-2020, 03:31 PM

Seize is fine, it's just that you can't really play it with Confidant.

Never did play Bobs (first availability then due to W6) & kept the black splash to a minimum. I think we've been through this on this thread, but I tried several things in those 2-drop/Bob-slots: Pre-Scroll it was TNN, I tried Lazav, then liked JVP for a long time, then took up 1 or 2 Brazen Boys, even considered the Gargoyle or just adding a Preordain. It's a tricky spot in the deck, but tbh I don't think it matters too much what you go for, a couple of Bobs would be fine now, too. The perfect information Thoughtseize gives you makes it that you don't really care about balancing out the inherent Dreadnought card disadvantage: usually we just don't care about 80% of their cards and ideally they'll be dead before they draw into one of their answers. In fact, there's a whole list of decks that simply can't handle a Dreadnought at all pre-board (e.g. Eldrazi, UR Delver, combo). But so if this is indeed riskier than UR's flexible control/tempo plan, in the meantime the Delver/Daze/Wasteland plan here (plan A2 rather than plan B) runs a lot more efficiently thanks to Ponder, the full 4 WLs, and 28+ Delver flips. What I'm trying to say is that it never seemed to me on par in degree of difficulty compared with UR's shapeshifting roleplay. It's tempo. Get the info. Go for it. Make them live & die by their topdecks. If they kill the 12/12, drop TNN or Scroll. It's much more linear than Dreadstill.

Tobitzki

02-02-2020, 03:32 PM

On opening hands in UR, you're doing something fundamentally more powerful than most decks so you shouldn't be feeling the need to have amazing opening hands nor try to mulligan to a 'great' six. You also have to let the Factories do their thing with Standstill's support, since they're not really a movable part of your mana base. Undercutting them adds in a good deal more variance to each draw step. Just keep all your cards comboing towards counting to 20 while managing interaction decisions; they all work together towards this goal in the setting of Standstill.

This is great advice, much appreciated.

Rood

02-02-2020, 05:34 PM

@Rood. Killing it lately! you got a big shout out by the LaL guys this week, too. Funny how folks only start recognizing once MTGO results come in. I'm excited to get back on Dreadstill myself after tinkering around with some janky Phoenix brews. (unfortunately too much RiP & Leyline for that atm)

So can I pick your brain about a couple of things? In particular: Where and when do you board out some number of Standstills, if ever? I'd be guessing against Delver & Vial decks, at least on the draw? And how do you approach & feel about our Delver MUs in general; BUG looks to be the toughest, followed by Grixis, then UR, but even that does not look super favorable, or is it? (I always thought that vs. tempo my old UB Ponder/Thoughtseize build had a slight advantage over classic Dreadstill). Any advice on common play patterns here?

@Fox. Happy to hear your take, too, as an old UR vet. And keep up the good work!

Thanks. I have 5 5-0 Trophies the past cpl weeks, 4th place on MTGO w dreadstill. Generally SS i never board out more then 1 unless against Depths Lands or Dredge. I often board out Bolts, Stifles, 1 scroll, sometimes 1 Dreadnought. Ive been fluctuating between 4 Snares and 4 Pierce I will say against Loam and stoneblade snare has been amazing. I think the real boost this deck gains over other delver decks is the ability to thrash snow control. Standstill and Scroll are such beatings for them.

UB is alot better vs delver and gY decks. UR is alot better vs the majority of the field tho.

Rood

02-02-2020, 08:19 PM

Also BUG delver, grixis, UGR, UR are delver MUs difficulty w bug being the hardest. Dismember is a key card here and if you expect alot of delver Snare > Pierce. Snare helps ALOT vs taxes which is a relatively hard MU

Tobitzki

02-03-2020, 12:49 PM

I think I like 2 Pierces 1 Snare 1 FoN for now.

And here's another question, regarding the mana base: How often does it become an issue that we're on 2 Volcs only? Beyond the 4 Bolts, there are critical red SB cards that we want against WL decks (Abrades for D&T and Delver, 1-2 Red Blasts for Delver, too). I remember reading back here how you (I think @Rood) came to the 4/3 split between Factories and Wastelands and that was all v convincing. But what about a 3/3 Island-Volc split or else a Fiery Islet as 3rd red source?

Fox

02-03-2020, 01:28 PM

Rood's list is overwhelmingly blue, and you have Daze/Stifle to protect those Volcs; but yes, the change to defense-predominant Stifle gameplay is a turns-long prioritization change. You have to be smart with Fetch decisions against Delver and DnT, but you should generally be okay. A 3/3 split is fine [if you own 3x Volc], but I wouldn't run Islet. Even if all your red mana is denied, you still have Scroll to repurpose them as 2/2s. Leading with nonbasics is a great way to lose in any Dreadnought deck, and you definitely pick up win % when your first land is basic Island (#4) instead of Volc (#3) auto-loss. If we're really splitting hairs on 3/3 vs 4/2 split, I think 3/3 goes with Pierce (anti-combo skew) while 4/2 goes with Snare (anti-Goyf). Remember that 3+ color decks are usually trying to scum wins off of Oko, so using Wasteland like that against a Daze deck is a lot harder when we lead basic Island -> Snare your Goyf -> I dare you to Waste my second land (Volc). A BUG Delver deck would much prefer a turn 1 play, Waste our first land Volc (no lands on board) and then try for Goyf into Oko, without losing a land drop in-between. The lost land drop between Oko and Goyf ends up playing a lot harder into Snare and Daze topdecking windows.

If you move towards cards like Lavamancer or Chandra ToD, you start working in basic Mountain. There's also something to be said for Noxious Revival as a 1x maindeck choice which adds quite a bit of finesse play, and can easily cover 2x Volcs; that said, Noxious is best played in the 4th Factory slot.

Just a random aside on SB ideas:
If you're looking for something like Painful Truths, there is something to be said for Tragic Lesson and Mystic Sanctuary. Probably better in Factory builds, but UB could use this engine to power up a Scroll down the stretch.

Mr. Safety

02-03-2020, 03:07 PM

@Rood. Killing it lately! you got a big shout out by the LaL guys this week, too.

I heard the name-drop during the podcast as well. :wink:

Tobitzki

02-03-2020, 03:38 PM

@Fox Makes sense; I already figured that we need to be super judicious with our fetching decisions and sometimes just sandbag a Volc, too. The mana base is just calibrated on razor-thin margins (see: history of this thread). 13, rather than the usual minimum 14, blue sources with only 4 cantrips is ballsy. Which is also why I don't like basic mountain here. But so, somewhat against my own better judgment, I was gonna run Academy Ruins over the 4th Scroll as land #21 and then Fiery Islet (only own 2 Volcs.). I know it's not correct, but I just wanna jam that beautiful John Avon land for a little while. Beyond that my logic was that offering more WL targets facilitates the odds of keeping a red source around, not sure if that computes.

Otherwise, my UR build is basically Rood's MD, SB as such:

1 T Orb
2 Brazen Bouncer
1 Dismember
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
1 Pithing Needle
3 Red Blast
2 Abrade
1 E.E.
1 Crypt
1 Cage
1 Surgical

Now, the low red mana-source count made me dither between 2 and 3 blasts (when we really do want 3) and second-guess any further red inclusions, like Sinkhole. (on 2 Volcs I'd run a 2nd Snare or Hydroblast over REB#3 and 2nd Dismember over Sinkhole.) Also considering a 4th piece of GY hate over the Needle (I only have 1 Surgical and we probably need another instant-interaction: might end up being a Faerie Mac. In a related note, criminally underplayed card atm: Extirpate. Total blow out vs. all those Breach decks).

I love the Tragic Lesson/Sanctuary idea. I was thinking about TL's viability for Legacy just the other day when I updated my Pauper Delver decks, but I hadn't thought of save-a-Factory mode. You can just run a single USea for the Painful Truth/Sanctuary package in the side, but this does put an additional if slight strain on our mana. And Lesson actually seems... strangely playable here? What would you cut in the SB, tho? The reason it might not make the cut in the end is simply that we need those slots elsewhere. We're not struggling vs. Snow Cntrl as much as, say, Delver.

Fox

02-03-2020, 04:07 PM

Now, the low red mana-source count made me dither between 2 and 3 blasts (when we really do want 3) and second-guess any further red inclusions, like Sinkhole. (on 2 Volcs I'd run a 2nd Snare or Hydroblast over REB#3 and 2nd Dismember over Sinkhole.) Also considering a 4th piece of GY hate (only own 1 Surgical and we probably need another instant-interaction: might be a Faerie Mac--in a related note, I think Extirpate is criminally underplayed atm: that's totally lights out vs. all those Breach decks).

I love the Tragic Lesson/Sanctuary idea. I was thinking about TL's viability for Legacy just the other day when I updated my Pauper Delver decks, but I hadn't thought of save-a-Factory mode. You can just run a single USea for the Painful Truth/Sanctuary package in the side, but this does put an additional if slight strain on our mana. And Lesson actually seems... strangely playable here? What would you cut in the SB, tho? The reason it might not make the cut in the end is simply that we need those slots elsewhere. We're not struggling vs. Snow Cntrl as much as, say, Delver.

You don't run Sea and Painful Truths; what I'm saying is that if you were ever considering something in the board like a Painful Truths-style grinding card you just use Tragic Lesson (staying on 2c) and keep picking up Mystic Sanctuary instead. Loop this nonsense over and over on opponent's EoT. Actual Painful Truths encourages pretty sloppy play combining sorcery speed with poor mana decisions and life loss - the moment DRS got banned this card became pretty suspect.

I wouldn't play Hydroblast right now since there's nothing worth hitting (particularly when we consider that Snare hits 2-drops). Game actions and permanents make for good yard hate. Consider Macabre and Damping Sphere (not so much yard hate here, but good at stopping plenty of play patterns used by combo). If you are on UB, Planar Void is a castable Leyline-analogue.

I don't think Delver is that bad of a matchup since most versions aren't really equipped to fight on quite the same mana denial axis. BUG Delver is the most annoying, but that's all b/c of Goyf. If you're looking for SB space, Brazen is perfectly reasonable as 1x main/1x SB (also note the play pattern of bounce Goyf later in game, especially if you just drew Snare). Don't go below 3x REB effects (Oko).

Rood

02-03-2020, 05:40 PM

I’ve been on 4 Tarns 3 Delta side basic mountain at least 2 weeks now. Its just proper to win the delver and loam MUs

You also want some # of dispels in your Sb. Veil is a volatile magic card

crispymelee

02-03-2020, 08:38 PM

Haven't yet had the chance to play it out, but the thought of CB in a UR build is becoming less appealing to me on paper. Using this as reference:

8x Scalding Tarn/Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Volcanic Island/Steam Vents (only own 1 proper UR dual)
4x Island

4x Dreadnought
4x Delver
2x Borrower

4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
2x Daze
4x Force of Will

3x Counterbalance
3x Scroll of Fate
2x Jace tMS

4x open (Ponder vs Standstill)

CB appeals to me since as colo said, it's a great way to discard permission from opponents, and is a low-cost investment into an engine that can randomly force opponents to discard cards with minimal further investment (BS, early, potentially JtMS later on). The issue I'm predicting (without testing yet) is that CB demands more library manipulation than typical Standstill builds have; I definitely want Ponder > Standstill if I'm running CB. However, that choice not only trashes the curve (only five 2cmc spells as built), it also pushes me away from manlands as additional reliable threats -> increases reliance on Noughts in general. Not a great look. We'll see how it goes tomorrow/Wednesday. On the flipside, Teferi's Response out of the SB seems hilarious, however narrow that'd be.:tongue:

SB Idea
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Abrade
3x Surgical Extraction
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Pierce
1x Ashiok
1x Narset

Will give an update after tomorrow's weekly.

KobeBryan

02-03-2020, 08:57 PM

crispymelee

02-03-2020, 09:42 PM

What's the point of 2 dazes...you may as well go 4 or 0

I don't disagree. It's more of a question of having some semblance of a curve to support CB + having a "free" counter available. Was considering cutting Scroll to allow +2 Dazes with an extra slot left over, but that loops back into the issue mentioned before of an increased reliance on Dreadnoughts and the loss of Scroll def doesn't help the situation. Makes me think CB in a two-color shell is...poor, to put it kindly.

Fox

02-03-2020, 09:50 PM

What's the point of 2 dazes...you may as well go 4 or 0

Not necessarily true, I used to run 3. It's one of the most sided-out cards in Standstill vs anything grindy.

Tobitzki

02-04-2020, 11:12 AM

So Mystic Sanctuary got me thinking: Can we crack a Fetch in response to opponent triggering Standstill, before we draw three? (is that the whole point? pretty sweet if it works)

colo

02-04-2020, 11:41 AM

So Mystic Sanctuary got me thinking: Can we crack a Fetch in response to opponent triggering Standstill, before we draw three? (is that the whole point? pretty sweet if it works)

Yes. That's also what makes it sweet with Counterbalance - but only in theory. I've had that fucking miser land end up in my starting seven or as an early topdeck regularly, no matter what I did :>

Tobitzki

02-05-2020, 09:26 AM

Rough night back on UR Dreadstill. 0:3, plus a bye, but added a couple of bonus games vs. Eureka Tell (lost both of those, too.).

The room: 2x Loam, D&T, Grixis Delver, Grixis Breach, ANT, Bant Miracles, Hogaak, Painter, Eureka Tell, Dreadstill.
Not really worth doing a full write-up, but the matchups were:

vs. Grixis Breach (1:2; v. close games, opp. went off twice while dead on board to a 12/12 & Just barely got there; between Dreadnought clock, interaction & Stifle, this feels like a fine MU)

vs. 4C Loam (0:2; took a beating. He had strong draws getting Punishing Fire & Grove online early and our threats & disruption just never lined up. G2 I think he cracked a Standstill & went on to still kill me with Loam, Knight, Lily/Veil. Did not play this optimally by a long shot but the MU seems daunting. I countered every Chalice, but Knight, Abrupt Decay, P Fire all F us up so hard..)

vs. RW Painter (1:2; losses were close, win a blowout; punted away G3 when I mistimed Petty Theft on Grindstone, which otherwise would have bought me the turn to find red mana for Abrade. This one's on me; MU seems ok.)

vs. Eureka Tell (2 pre-board losses; strange & clunky games; neither deck finds any business for a long time, and when we do, his obviously overpowers ours. Overall, he broke 2 Standstills eot-ing Ice-Fang; after a big counterfight over S&T, he takes a Dreadnought hit only to Wish for E Truth, gives me 1 Turn to deal 3 damage that'd kill him dead--I have 3 ways that each need an extra turn: Mystic Sanctuary for Bolt, play 1 of 2 Factories, recast Dreadnought--and he goes off again next turn.)

My list:

4 Delver
4 PhD
3 Scroll of Fate
4 Standstill

4 BS
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Force of Negation
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Mystic Sanctuary
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
7 Strand & Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island

SB

1 Torpor Orb
2 Tragic Lesson
2 Brazen Bouncer
3 Red Blast
1 Dismember
2 Abrade
1 Explosives
1 Surgical
1 Cage
1 Crypt

Small sample size, obviously, but a few take-aways:

Cracked Standstill ≠ victory. Each of my opp. played correctly vs. Standstill and I definitely drew into air a couple of times. Discarding to handsize is a little science unto itself.

There's a real chance of drawing the wrong side of the deck here: Standstills without pressure; Dreadnoughts after just Stifling stuff. I didn't see nearly enough Delvers all night (they only showed up big to the Punishing Fire party). I never drew one of those Delver-into-Standstill hands otp.

@Rood I see why you'd go for super narrow Show&Tell hate bombs (Agent of Treachery); they can play right through a Standstill, and Veil & Snake are formidable cards against us.

Even though (naturally) I ended up with Mystic Sanctuary in my starting hand what felt like half the time, I actually liked the inclusion a lot, not least as blue source #14 & for guaranteeing Standstill cracks to hit what we need. Of all the Daze decks this might be the one that best capitalizes the utility of MS. Unfortunately, I never got to cast Tragic Lesson.

The counter package of 2 Pierce, 1 Snare, 1 FoN seemed good against a diverse field. (of course still couldn't find that FoN when my life literally depended on it vs. Loam...) Might considering sticking a 2nd Snare in the side.

Instead of basic mountain out of the side (as long as I stick with Sanctuary), I'm thinking of adding an 8th fetch over the 4th Island.

Overall, while I know this to be a well-constructed if challenging deck that can do beautiful things, nights like these are frustrating enough to make we wanna go back & just cruise around in my Honda Civic for a bit. Standstill, Factories, and Dreadnought/Scroll vs. Ponder, Arcanist, and Pyromancer/TNN/Brazen B just seems so lopsided in both sheer power level & synergies.

Tobitzki

02-05-2020, 09:31 AM

Meanwhile, to cheer everyone up, here's the always entertaining Rich Shay running @Rood's list through a league. Highly recommended:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/542317232?filter=archives&sort=time

(League starts roughly around 00:30:00)

Fox

02-05-2020, 09:38 AM

What was your boarding in these matches?

Tobitzki

02-05-2020, 11:21 AM

From memory, something like:

vs. Grixis Breach:
IN: 3 Blasts, 3 GY Hate
OUT: 2 Scroll, 3 Bolts (I half expected him to pivot to Delver plan post-board, so left one in), 1 Dreadnought

vs. Loam: (this was super tough)
IN: Dismember; 2 Abrade, 2 Brazen B, E.E.; 1 Tragic Lesson (didn't wanna go all in on the grind plan on the play); Crypt; Surgical
OUT: 2 Pierce; Snare; 4 Daze; 2 Dreadnoughts

Basically I feel pulled into 2 directions here: grind with Sanctuary/Tragic Lesson & play to the board with removal OR go all in on Tempo & hope to Delver/Daze/WL them out of the game. Thing is that other than a super tight starting hand, Daze seems to be the weakest spell here.

vs. Painter:
IN: T Orb; 2 Abrade, E.E., 1 Brazen B, Surgical
OUT: 2 Scrolls, 1 PhD, 1 Bolt, 1 Standstill (?), 1 Stifle (?) --not sure exactly, basically shaved a few things.

Left in most of the Bolts for Painter, Goblins and because he showed me Smuggler's Copter. Perhaps leaving them all in would've been justified.

Any advice & feedback appreciated.

EDIT: final point: I missed Null Rod, then saw one in @Rood's list & realized that it's fine cuz with the exception of Stoneblade & D&T we board out Scrolls in the MUs where Rod shines.

crispymelee

02-05-2020, 04:28 PM

Most successful night thus far running the big boys; went 2-1-1 to earn a bit of store credit, drawing the last game (vs. Burn) due to the late hour. We played out a G1, and I'm fairly certain I could have taken it for a 3-1 based on what I saw (lots of higher CMC burn spells).

Round 1: Turbo Depths, L 1-2 (0-1 overall) -
G1: An almost ideal opener of T1 Island -> Delver, T2 Fetchland with BS in hand means that I'm able to to deliver early pressure on his life total. A second Delver in hand keeps up the pressure after the first eats a Decay, and I make sure to keep my Borrower in hand when I see the Thespian's comes down. Bob can't stop the beatdown, and he's close to death when he goes attempts to combo out with Dark Depths on my end step, and I let it resolve. I show him the Petty Theft on his upkeep and we go to G2.

In: 3x Surgical Extract, 1x Pithing Needle, 2x EE, Narset
Out: 3x CB, 2x Bolt, 1x Force of Will

G2: He opens up with a Thoughtseize and I lose my Stifle. This time, my early Delver refuses to flip, and though I manage to stick a Dreadnought, it immediately eats a Decay. I use my Extraction on the Decay and am able to buy a turn by Stifling his first attempt to Stage -> Depths, I can't find either EE or Borrower to take care of the 20/20.

G3: A very tight, technical game. I can't find early pressure, but I setup his Stage in the yard by attempting to Waste his Thespian's. This gets a Crop Rot in response, which I let resolve, fetching another Stage. This is when I realize I should have countered it since I would have gotten the Stage in the yard anyways. Now, I'm hoping to draw into another Extraction, Waste, or Stifle. Unfortunately, the Ponder and Brainstorm in hand don't dig me anything interactive, and I'm left helpless as he is able to get Marit Lage and he stomps me.

Round 2: 4c Loam, W 2-1, (1-1 overall)
G1: Once again, Delvers are the heroes of the day. I get greedy and overextend, going for a T2 Delver after the first one fails to flip, but am rewarded when on T3, they both flip on a blind Bolt reveal. All I'm seeing is a pile of dual lands stacking up on his side and have no clue what he's on until a land gets cycled. A Decay takes a Delver, but he has no answer for the second as I stick a Scroll. I Bolt his Bob to stop his alternative engine, and ironically, he scoops before I have the chance to flip my Manifested Deadnought, so he's still unaware of what's lurking behind the Delvers.

In: 2x Spell Pierce, 3x Surgical Extraction, 1x Ashiok, 1x Narset, 2x TNN
Out: 3x Counterbalance, 3x Daze, 1x JtMS, 2x Brazen Borrower

G2: We both keep unwieldy hands, but Ponder manages to smooth out my draws. We drop lands back and forth, And I drop the first real threat of TNN. Nemesis gets to beat in for a couple turns, but Plague Engineer on Rogue ends him. I do manage to stick an Ashiok, and she manages to get rid of some cycle lands, but she meets a swift end to Bob and Engineer. Delver and Dread hit the board the turn after, but the Dread eats a Decay and Delver refuses to flip. Eventually, he goes wild with a Knight of the Reliquary, Maze of Ith, and Loam, and I get run over by a giant Knight.

G3: I keep another aggressive (read: risky) 1-lander that has an Island, Ponder, 2x Brainstorm, and Delver. He keeps a risky hand as well, but luck favors me, and ponder gets me some early gas and resources (2nd delver + fetch). By the time he finds a second land for Chalice on 1, I have two flipped Delvers bearing down on him and he doesn't find any removal in time and concedes after I drop TNN. He showed me has hand after, and it was a potentially lethal mix of Oko, Liliana, another Chalice, and Loam.

Round 3: Omnitell, W 2-0 (2-1 overall)

G1: Continuing the theme of riding my luck tonight, I get another Ponder opener which lets me chip away at him by finding a Delver and setting up a flip. An early Stifle on a fetch sets him back a turn, and when he finally is able to cast LimDuls Vault, hes unlucky and pays 4 life for his piles. A CB discards force from him, and by the time he tries to drop Show and Tell, multiple Ponders and BS have given me a Daze and 2x FoW, with some extra Delvers to pitch. I win the FoW war over the SnT, and a few turns later, I have him within lethal range of Bolt; he concedes G1 after I show him the second Bolt with Steam Vents up.

In: 3x REB, 3x Surgical Extraction, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Narset
Out: 3x CB, 3x Bolt, 2x Daze, 1x JtMS

G2: Having seen the SnT, I'm disappointed with an opening hand of 2x Delver, 2x Land, JtMS, Scroll, and Ponder. I roll with it though, under the premise that a T1 Ponder can essentially dig me permission; after I shuffle away 3 non-interactive cards, it doesn't. He unfortunately seems unluckier with his draws, and once again, by the time he finds relevant pieces to put down, Delvers are flying in on him and put him within lethal range of a Dreadnought; he saw the Scroll G1, and this time didn't let it resolve, effectively winning me the counterwar when I hardcasted Nought.

Overall impressions:
+ 4x Daze was the right call. I cut a Scroll#3 and Ponder#4 to fit them in.
+ Ponder in general was incredible. The ability to shuffle away irrelevant cards and cantrip felt very critical to keeping up pressure or digging for answers.
+ Brazen Borrower main feels like a must; being able to bounce any non-land perm into a line of them playing it out against permission felt amazing, and it sealed the game I took against Lands.
+ Mystic Sanct: ironically, the one time it mattered was the one time I had it in an opening hand. It gave me a bit of extra reach vs the Loam player
= Undecided on CB; it never really got to affect any of my games, but it DID have the desired effect of discarding permission when I tried to cast it. That being said, I boarded them all out in every match, and frankly don't know when I should/Shouldn't keep them in. I felt good about taking them out in the matches i played, and would have kept them in for the Burn player if I played out R4.

SB for the night:
3x REB
2x Spell Pierce
3x S. Extraction
1x Ashiok
1x Narset
2x Engineered Explosives
2x TNN
1x PNeedle

Keep rocking them Noughts!

Fox

02-05-2020, 05:44 PM

Watched the Rich Shay replay. The mechanics and long-term planning is done with proficiency, but the list is consistently undercut by improper card/role evaluation. If it were a normal legacy deck (like UR Delver) he would have been spot on, but he consistently jammed cards in such a way that future topdecks were getting stranded. You see more of this lost win % surrounding premature aggro-Dreadnoughts than with Standstill. If it was UR Standstill I'd rate his play/game-sense as expert (few to no egregious mistakes), but the Dreadnought tempo reservoir was too often misused.

The sideboarding I disagreed with in pretty much every instance, but I don't play yolo-Dreadnought/normal legacy. Some thoughts as I watched the League:
-Rood's list: I've never cared much for Pierce. The reasoning being when you're on Standstill, you're letting opponents get land drops and it's really hard to overcome having Daze and Pierce in your deck outnumbering pitch outlets 2:1. I get why Rood likes it, but ya I can't stand Pierce as a card. :tongue: The lack of anti-SnT cards in board is ofc why we're seeing Pierce over Snare.
In the board I'm never running Blood Moon; Alpine Moon yes. Kinda like Pierce vs Snare, I also dislike Narset compared to Ashiok. SB Karn is a card I will always reach for before Null Rod when above 18 land.

-Round 1 vs BUG scoopzilla:
Game 1 I would have waited for 1 more land drop before making post-Standstill Factory attack. Opponent scoops to Daze on Oko. There's quite a bit to be learned from this game; imagine the opponent hits land #4 and Oko resolves through the Daze corner Rich played himself into - it becomes a convincing loss very quickly. A withheld Factory attack results in auto-win.

Sideboarding: dislike Blood Moon; Factory is a huge check on Oko. SBing otherwise looks okay, but I'd leave Stifle at 4x and cut Scroll x2 when going down 2x Nought. Adding Mountain is equivocal, but would like to see Daze trimmed [especially on the draw]; these games will skew longer and Daze is going to fall off. This can be inferred from Drown in the Loch into Oko. My Boarding here would be +4 REB, +1 Mag. Sinkhole, +1 Borrower, +1 Surgical, +1 Narset. -4 Daze, -2 Nought, -2 Bolt.

Game 2 opponent scoops to Wasteland. Very lucky since that Blood Moon is something we were never interested in casting. When Standstill is good in a matchup, you can't really afford to bring in Moon and lose access to slamming Standstill while topdecking towards Factory.

-Round 2 vs KassariPost:
Game 1 with Stifle in hand on the play you lead Volc to vindicate any enemy Wasteland in the blind (had basic Island in hand to beat a turbo-Moon also). Agree with Rich's use of Scroll and Standstill. Disagree heavily with FoW vs Primetime Titan when we have Nought to attack next turn (off Scroll), Stifle for the Primetime trigger, and even Brazen to disappear it. Correct sequence after Stifle is attack with face-down Nought *only* and murder 6/6 tiny dude when it blocks (or they take 12) -> pass turn -> bounce Titan in enter combat step (if it's still alive), or even just threaten to block with 6 power [Factory + 2/2 + active Scroll] and say "your 2 tapped lands won't get you out of this." Rich's aggro-FoW on titan stranded Wasteland by itself (to kill a Cloudpost) instead of backing up Nought vs utility land (Chasm/Maze etc...). This is a good example of how a game falls apart when you don't leverage the tempo reservoir.

Sideboarding: Moon is fine, but Alpine Moon name Cloudpost would have been better. My boarding would be +1 Moon, +2 Abrade, +2 Surgical. -3 Daze, -2 Standstill (if you had Snare, all 4 would have to come out first). Don't really like Surgical, but it can tag Cloudpost and plenty of dead cards. Narset is equivocal, but Ashiok I couldn't bring in fast enough.

Game 2 I agree with FoW pitch Narset vs Needle. Wasteland into Stifle trap on Map was correct. In terms of manifesting Bolt or Stifle, I'd have kept Stifle in hand; both paths lead to victory due to earlier sequences.

Game 3 don't ever keep that hand without Scroll. This should have been an easy match win.

-Round 3 vs R/G Lands:
Game 1 has no way to win (maindeck Needle on WL). Opponent commits Crop Rot for Stage on their turn vs Nought #1 which makes the next decision easy (to deploy Nought #2). The only other decision fork was to force through 12 dmg (Stifle the Maze) and hope to topdeck red source and another Bolt. Going for 2nd Nought is generally going to be the better line (particularly since Needle wasn't in the mix yet).

Sideboarding: Do not like Rich's cutting Dreadnought at all in this m/u. The board plan should be close to auto-losing. For me it's +2 Abrade, +1 Moon (Alpine Moon name Stage would have been far superior, keeping them off Factory mimicry and combo), +1 Borrower, +3 Surgical, +1 Mountain. Bringing out as many Pierce and Daze and Standstill as I can. I don't even like Bolt much, but it allows Factory dominance vs Stage. I would 100% bring in Ashiok here, but we only have Narset.

Game 2: I agree with the turn 2 Nought. While I understand the timing of Wasteland/Surgical Depths, after losing the Nought I'm fine leaving Wasteland "up" [they had Port] and forcing them to 'have it all' or hemorrhage cards and tempo into a Surgical trap. While this match is won with some fine time-out cheese, there are significant problems which arise from the perfect storm of cutting Noughts, going aggro on Depths, and not being able to challenge P-fire with Surgical (stranding Scroll). Rich demonstrates correct multi-turn planning theory, discussing the only out of manifest Nought, flip response to P-Fire, Stifle saved for Blast Zone. This is a good game to watch to understand the tempo reservoir; imagine if Blast Zone was not an onboard trick, Nought was in hand, and Scroll wasn't in play - there is no benefit to playing into things when you can wait for your hand to discover contingencies and/or other plans. The opponent really threw this game [and also the match] by siding out their best card: Field of the Dead. Let's be real, we know what that Choke got exchanged for.

-Round 4 vs Chase [aka Stryfo]
Game 1 both players exhibit excellent Stifle discipline for a few turns. There's a lot to be learned in the first 4 turns of this game. Going into turn 4 Rich kinda throws this game by chucking Wasteland at the Sea, particularly on Chase's end step. There are two best lines here. A) you draw up to 8 and discard Nought to hand size, then Wasteland Sea in their upkeep. B) cast Nought off Wasteland, and then choose a path as you Stifle. Either you murder countermagic with 2nd +/- 3rd Stifle on Nought trigger or use the situation to tag a Fetch and FoW or 2x Fetch. Given that this is Chase Hansen, the Dack Fayden guy, I'm never dumping a Nought into play without a way to stop a Dack cast and [-2]. Chase untaps and concedes; that Rich's sequence didn't backfire horribly is so incredibly lucky. :cool:

Sideboarding (suspect Stryfo Pile): I'm never bringing in Moon vs a deck where I suspect Oko (thus Astro), and certainly not unless I'm 100% sure they don't have a single basic Island and Brazen Borrower (so like never against a 4-5c deck, which is why I'd never have it in the 75). Rich's SBing right here is night and day vs what I'd be doing. For me it's either -4 Nought/-1 Stifle/-2 Scroll/-1 Stifle/-1 FoW for +1 Narset/+1 Brazen/+4 REB/+2 Surgical/+1 Mag. Sinkhole *or* it's -2 Nought/-1 Scroll/-4 Bolt for +4 REB/+2 Surgical/+1 Narset.

Game 2 Chase is on UB Reanimonster! Back to the board! :laugh:

SB: I'd do +3 Surgical/+1 Brazen/+1 Narset for -4 Bolt/-1 Delver. Option to add 1-2x REB would change cuts to -2/3 Standstill (Delver back in).

Game 3 Jamming Scroll is optimal - that was a tough decision point, but Standstill in hand requires it. Now imagine Standstill isn't in hand; still correct to play Scroll b/c you can topdeck Standstill or Nought. This deck is all about managing the game such that all topdecks feed into the plan, and Rich's decision here is master level. Unfortunately, right afterwards Daze isn't used on Entomb, followed by an irrecoverable mistake to not let Exhume resolve granting Niv Mizzet vs REB in hand. This is the trap of playing normal legacy after that missed Daze, it really doesn't matter if Chase has Niv-Mizzet in play and draws some cards, you untap and it dies, and then Standstill comes down while Scroll takes over the game. That Daze on Entomb has to happen though, b/c any non-Pyroblastable [even Elesh Norn] would not be tolerable at that point in the game. That game should have ended with Surgical still in hand.

-Round 5 vs UR CB/Delver/Dreadhorde/Portent
There's a noticeable uptick in short-sighted plays, but I'd attribute that to fatigue. It's a good set of games to watch to see how not to use countermagic early and what happens when you aggro-Dreadnoughts without purpose. While an Abrade is never cast, just note how his countermagic use early could easily terminate in loss to Abrade later.
---
In hindsight a 4-1 was likely achievable. With mastery of the deck a 5-0 perhaps was possible, but would have been difficult if first opponent wasn't on scoopzilla and the R/G player didn't board out Fields. More than anything, the confused sideboarding is what really led to the 2-3 finish. There's other ways to SB ofc, but the boarding needs to match the role the deck will assume. That was an adept league by Rich; interacting with stream on top of playing Dreadstill for the first time in a few years is no easy feat. Was fun to watch and analyze, thanks for taking Rood's sweet list out for a spin!

Fox

02-05-2020, 06:36 PM

@Tobitzki
Looks pretty good. I think I'd do something like:
-Breach: +1 Torpor, +3 REB, +3 yard hate. -4 Bolt, -2 Scroll, -1 Nought. If Brazen was wanted, I'd be looking at a Standstill and a Factory.
-Loam: +1 Surgical, +1 EE, +2 Abrade, +2 Brazen. -2 Bolt, -2 Pierce, -1 Nought, -1 FoW. Don't really feel the need to bring in Crypt. Dismember coming in is fine, and don't mind experimenting with Tragic Lesson.
-Painter: +1 Torpor, +2 Brazen, +2 Abrade, +1 Tragic Lesson. -1 Snare, -1 Scroll, -3 Daze, -1 Nought.
-EurekaTell: +3 REB, +2 Borrower. -4 Bolt, -1 Snare.

I feel fine leaving in all the Standstills vs those decks. Cutting down to 3x Standstill to try a new card is always going to be fine. The Loam sideboarding comes down to what you want to do with the Bolts; but the more you lay off their yard, the higher your Dreadnoughts count needs to be to take out Knight in combat. I generally like Daze against their nonstop 3 drops.

@Crispymelee game rules dictate you have to reveal morph/manifest/Mask'd creatures at end of game. You don't have to tell an inattentive opponent to look at the card you flipped, but I'd leave it face up for a few seconds as you grab SB from deckbox.

crispymelee

02-05-2020, 07:00 PM

@Crispymelee game rules dictate you have to reveal morph/manifest/Mask'd creatures at end of game. You don't have to tell an inattentive opponent to look at the card you flipped, but I'd leave it face up for a few seconds as you grab SB from deckbox.

I was totally unaware of this, thanks for the heads up!

Hoping colo will chime in on the use of CB and your feedback as always is much appreciated. :)

Rood

02-05-2020, 08:04 PM

My stream for anyone interested is @roodslay on twitch. gonna actually stream a league here right now and see what happens

crispymelee

02-05-2020, 08:22 PM

My stream for anyone interested is @roodslay on twitch. gonna actually stream a league here right now and see what happens

Someone clip/record this! I'm still at work :( Would love to hear your decision making and thought process as you play it out Rood-man!

KobeBryan

02-05-2020, 10:18 PM

Bryant cook got that damn god draw on you

KobeBryan

02-05-2020, 11:24 PM

i played a few rounds of UB on cockatrice. This deck has some problems with lands.

Mr. Safety

02-06-2020, 08:52 AM

I’ve been on 4 Tarns 3 Delta side basic mountain at least 2 weeks now. Its just proper to win the delver and loam MUs

You also want some # of dispels in your Sb. Veil is a volatile magic card

Do you mean literal Dispels or dispel-like cards (Pyroblast/Hydroblast/etc.)? I've been playing a Dispel in my Shadow sideboard and love it, but a lot of people shit on it for being too narrow. I think it's overall very good in all the matchups where you want to win stack wars.

02-06-2020, 09:02 AM

Do you mean literal Dispels or dispel-like cards (Pyroblast/Hydroblast/etc.)? I've been playing a Dispel in my Shadow sideboard and love it, but a lot of people shit on it for being too narrow. I think it's overall very good in all the matchups where you want to win stack wars.

Yeah, he ws literally playing two copies of Dispel in the sideboard, when I was able to tune into the stream last night. Unfortunately I missed most of it and seems VODs are not available for some reason (I don't really know how that works on Twitch).

Tobitzki

02-06-2020, 10:28 AM

I think Dispel over Flusterstorm is uniquely playable with Standstill, since they can make land drops and then calmly play their Swords, Ritual, Veil and other countermagic around stuff like Pierce &, to a lesser extent, F.storm.

@Rood: managed to catch the final 2 matches of the 1st league & a bit of the deck tech talk after. Much appreciated. It would be amazing if you'd do more of these in the future and possibly put up the videos, too (I'm in Europe & won't be able to watch much live at that hour..).

crispymelee

02-06-2020, 01:32 PM

i played a few rounds of UB on cockatrice. This deck has some problems with lands.

Mind posting the list? :)

KobeBryan

02-06-2020, 01:43 PM

Mind posting the list? :)

3 Scroll of Fate
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Wasteland
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Bitterblossom

2 Plague Engineer
2 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Mystical Dispute
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Divert
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Bitterblossom

Rood

02-06-2020, 04:33 PM

Ive been extremely underwhelmed by brazen borrower. Im on 2 bob main 1 board for UB. Also want planar void or Leyline over surgical for black splash.

KobeBryan

02-06-2020, 05:05 PM

Ive been extremely underwhelmed by brazen borrower. Im on 2 bob main 1 board for UB. Also want planar void or Leyline over surgical for black splash.

That's a good point. but brazen gets ride of the card we cannot handle, which is depths

Rood

02-06-2020, 06:45 PM

Ill be streaming tonight around 10 for anyone interested

crispymelee

02-06-2020, 07:32 PM

That's a good point. but brazen gets ride of the card we cannot handle, which is depths

This is the exact reason I have 2x main on non-UW.

When you mentioned your list had issues with lands, what did you mean? Flooded out or couldnt get the colors you need? 7 non-colored mana sources seems like a lot.

Your UB main looks exactly like mine, except the land distribution is different (3/3 factory/waste, 2/3/1 USea/Island/Swamp, 8 fetches) and instead of 2x Pierce I have 2x Karn, since I'm expecting games to be grindier compared to UR.

I have Murderous Rider out of the side on mine, but given its casting cost, I'm considering Noxious Grasp in its place.

Rood

02-06-2020, 07:34 PM

Lands and depths are borderline 40/60 MUs they are played so little on paper im becoming less concerned (tabernacle).

Fox

02-08-2020, 09:13 PM

10 decks in the room: Stryfo Pile, R/G OkoLands, Maverick-Depths, Stasis (think UW miracles with 2x Teferi, HDom and 2x Stasis), Elves!, Eldrazi Aggro, DnT, BUG Dreadnought/Horror/Torpor, Antiquities War (Tezz variant), and manifest destiny.

Round 1 vs DnT (2-0): I'm on the play vs 1-land 2x Vial keep, I bounce Vial #1 before it gets to two (opponent replays). I untap, get to 4th mana and Karn, game over. Game 2 opponent doesn't have a Vial, but begins to pull ahead with Thalia/Revoker on Teferi/Tomik; I play Porphyry Nodes killing Thalia and am able to hold up Karn + Stifle. Opponent has hard decision on CJ, and chooses to hit Nodes, but falls to Plow on Revoker and Teferi [-3] on Tomik into Karn wish Coating. There was a Dreadnought off Scroll somewhere in game 2 which got a hit in and gained me 12 life, but it was Karn's LD that ended this one.

Round 2 vs Maverick-Depths (2-1): Game 1 I win the die roll and lead Fetch, opponent plays Stage, I untap play Wasteland and make a Nought, opponent plays Bayou and concedes (never getting to Decay). Game 2 and 3 are really strange and it's mostly Cursed Scroll vs Choke; I end up winning game 3 by activating Mastery of the Unseen 2x while opponent topdecks lands. Of note in these games, remember that Giver of Runes cannot protect itself - I was only focusing on the protection from colorless aspect Mother of Runes doesn't have, and forgot this one couldn't protect itself from Scroll.

Round 3 vs StryfoPile (2-0): I'm on the play leading Fetch, pass. Opponent plays Fetch and pass, I play second Fetch and they play second Fetch. On their EoT I Fetch once and Brainstorm, untap and crack other Fetch; opponent responds with Fetch Volc and crack second Fetch (Stifle) and I Waste Volc. The game ended once Karn wished Crucible and their Dack [-2] was Stifled and Factory took him out (Wasteland lock took over, no more 3 mana for them). Game 2 they lead basic Island into Grove (Wastelanded), crack a Fetch (Stifle), I then get RiP and Teferi down and they concede as their first Snapcaster eats a Plow and the second will never get through Factory. Their lands at the end were basic Island and Forest.

Round 4 vs Elves! (Intentional Draw, but we played for fun and I went 1-2)

Many, many lands died today. Take away points are always nuke StyrfoPile's yard and exile their P-Fires with FoN, Astrolabe + Azcanta is pretty good at ignoring Choke, and stopping DnT's mana-cheating Vials with Karn is an effective strategy. The only SB card I didn't board in or wish for today was Scroll of Fate. :cool:

The only other card I've been contemplating lately is Warping Wail, which has some text against Veil. Bonus points for hitting Xantid Swarm and Arcane Artisan, getting around Mother of Runes, and taking out all the ETB value duders. Let's be honest though, it's all about making that 1/1 on their end step and untapping into Standstill.

Rood

02-10-2020, 02:04 AM

I have a new list you should all be very excited about. I took this to the ELD monthly on saturday and got 5th place. Losing in the top 8 to a topdecked lightning bolt with opponent at lethal dmg on board.

Also just hit trophy #6 first attempt with the new list on MTGO!!

4x FOW
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Dreadnought
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Scroll of Fate
3x Lightning Bolt
2x True-Name Nemesis
4x Standstill
4x Spell Pierce
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Polluted Delta
4x Island
1x Mountain
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Volcanic Island'

SB:
2x True Name Nemesis
2x EE
3x REB
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Abrade
2x Dismember
2x Agent of Treachery

So the new old friend back is of course the mighty TNN. I cant even begin to tell you guys how incredible he's been back in the list. Having the ability to totally disregard opponents removal is something we were sorely missing. I've found a way to incorporate him into the deck while keeping scrolls as well. 2 main 2 SB. Also the 5 basics in the list and the 3 factory has been great. Allows us to just absolutely hose and crush the Delver and harder matchups we once had. So since the list has been put together this has been my results..

4-1-2 at ELDs monthly (Taking 5th place overall 32 players)

5-0 MTGO league. Hope to hear some feedback on the new list.

Updated the primer with the current list. Fox can we keep your most recent list for the primer as well?

Fox

02-10-2020, 05:38 AM

That list is still current, no changes from list on first page. What were your opponents on in your last 5-0?

Rood

02-10-2020, 05:43 AM

That list is still current, no changes from list on first page. What were your opponents on in your last 5-0?

BUG astro
Elves
UR Delver
UWG Helm/RIP/Energy field control
URW Breach

TNN put in work especially in the first 3 matches

crispymelee

02-10-2020, 03:00 PM

Worst performance I've had since returning to Legacy; went 0-3 -> drop at the latest Knight-Ware. I think a lack of confidence in my list, along with poor in-game decisions really did me in.

Rd 1: UWR Breach - L, 1-2 (0-1 overall)
Completely unprepared for the deck.
G1: I'm able to murder his Teferi with Delver and Factories. Permission keeps Dack down and Sevinne's Reclamation from going off. A Dreadnought beats him down before I can see what the deck does.
G2/G3: Both games, I drew neither the permission nor the GY-hate necessary to keep him from Brainfreezing me to death. G3 he sided in Mentors, and I'm quickly overwhelmed by a swarm of Monks.

Rd 2: Dredge - L, 0-2 (0-2 overall)
Really wished I packed Leylines > Surgical Extractions
G1: Delver is the only threat I draw, and he refuses to flip. I'm actually milled out of the game with Altar of Dementia fuelled by Zombie tokens, Hogaak, and Vengevine. Smartly uses it to thoroughly examine my deck.
G2: Cabal Therapies do their work, and I'm stripped of the Dreadnought and Stifle I have in hand. I find none of my GY-hate, and unflipped Delvers only delay the inevitable beatdown from Hogaak (why does he have trample), Bloodghast, and Vengevines

Rd 3: UR Delver - L, 0-2 (0-3 overall)
Best shot at taking a match; also the match I played with the most mistakes.
G1: On the draw, we each open up with Island -> Delver -> Go. I think the mistake here was to try and jam Standstill T2 instead of waiting to Stifle his T2 fetch that he left up in an attempt to either attack his mana or discard permission. Standstill resolves, but the three cards don't draw me anything relevant. I'm drowning in lands and my T3 Nought "hardcast" and T4 JtMS each eat permission. I stick Scroll as a result, but can't find a 2nd Nought in time to Manifest.
G2: On the play, and I manage an early Factory under Standstill. Factory beats for a few turns, and he wisely waits until I have a full grip to Bolt the Factory on my endstep. Incredibly, I drew nothing to protect the Factory. Once again, I drown in lands and by the time a Scroll shows up to Manifest a Nought, I'm too low on life to make the comeback.

Gonna go back to UW and keep tinkering with UG/Bant ideas. Dropping Noughts are still fun, but unfamiliarity and rough matchups are difficult to overcome. As always, my greatest opponent continues to be myself.

Fox

02-10-2020, 06:12 PM

@crispymelee
It sounds like your Breach opponent wasn't really all-in on the combo if they were playing Dack and Sevinne, so one of the more important things to determine (as best you can) is how far they've deviated from a stock list [i.e. does maindeck have StP, Mentor/Snapcaster? Are you seeing any Petals with LED? Do they have Orim's Chant, E. Tutor? etc...]. The use of Dack and Sevinne's is highly aberrant, and automatically makes them less likely to go off early. When they show jank like that, you likely don't need more yard hate than Surgical provides. Between 3 and 4x REBs are also coming in. You'll also want Abrade [Dack user], and Sulfur Elemental (if you have it). Leave most-to-all Stifle in (their deck folds to mana denial, and it hits Dack and storm trigger). It's unlikely that you have to Nought them out, so I'd be looking at -2 Nought -2 Scroll, -1 basic Mountain*. I'd be happy with a Bolt out for every Abrade, and -2 Daze on the draw**.
*If you're on Vista and Tarn, better to leave Mountain in.
**if you're seeing Silence effects, Pierce will remain favored over Daze on the play. If you're on Snare, they're the first countermagic cuts (especially if they're on Silence effects).

Some general rules for this m/u:
-If no Petals -> Surgical LED kills combo. That's a key point about Petal and Grinding Station; this combination makes Petal perform exactly like LED
-Surgical Breach is usually best use.
-If they're self-milling stop at two points and assess. Point 1 - trigger on the stack weigh Stifle the storm trigger versus countering Brain Freeze [trigger on stack] -> Surgical Freeze (they need to be out of mana or extra cards in yard to recast). Point 2 - as cards are being milled 3 at a time [with at least one spell on the stack], check if their countermagic is down (they can't alt-cast FoW b/c escape is the alternate cost), then ask yourself "if they milled a Mentor, can you beat it or do I need to Surgical it."
-If they're trying to play Breach like Elvish Visionary (as in Breach, replay Teferi, bounce Breach, repeat), you can surgical Teferi.
-If you have things like Narset/Ashiok/BEB, bring those in.
-There should be no TNNs in a post-board deck.
-Teferi on 3 loyalty using [-3] ability can be Stifled (he's in the yard now with ability on stack).
-If you do play Noxious Revival and have it in hand, you refill your library in your upkeep (or their end step, after Breach is sacrificed if you have or are playing around FoN) and let your opponent deck out.
-If you run Karn and wish for Crypt they die, this endgame goal will dominate your play patterns.

^Hopefully Rood can get the twitch streams to record, we had a pretty good discussion of lines, tactics, and SB strategies vs Breach. Their deck was consistently losing Rood when I was watching. Maybe @Rood remembers some of the specifics of opening hand appraisal and SB strat?
---
Your R2 opponent wasn't Dredge (LED/Ichorid/Cephalid/dredgers), but rather Hogaak (Bloodghast/Stitcher's Supplier). I would not want Pierce nor Snare in my deck postboard against Hogaak, and I'd also be cutting ~3x Standstill. In either of these matches, it's important to keep tabs on Dreadnought and Wasteland + animated Factory as vindicate Bridge from Below on command. Stifle vs first Altar trigger post-Gaak is often a point of weakness for them. Remember that Bloodghast, Carrion Feeder, and Gravecrawler can't block. Keep opponent's honest with Vengevine, it will only trigger at the time of the second creature cast (not the 3rd and beyond).

Rood

02-10-2020, 08:33 PM

Tobitzki

02-11-2020, 08:46 AM

@Rood: really digging your move towards streaming, and from what I've seen you're a natural in talking through decision points clearly and intelligently. So I just want to encourage you to keep going and, if at all possible, record and put up those leagues before they get lost in the aether. Another great place to advertise your streams in real time (better than posting a heads-up in this thread?) would be the LaL FB group; there seems to be a bit of interest in the deck currently, thanks to the 5-0's, and who better to watch than the original Dreadstill creator?

Also, if you ever get around to updating the primer here and adding that SB guide, it'd be much appreciated.

Fox

02-15-2020, 07:47 PM

Decks in the room: 4c SnowOko miracles, Stryfo Pile, Jeskai Mentor [Snow, from the Wrenn days], Elves!, UR Standstill [think Dreadstill without any Noughts], Jund, Painter [mono red?? w/ Recruiter], R/Gu Lands [+Oko], UR Delver, TES, unknown, and manifest destiny.

Round 1 vs Painter (2-0): Game 1 play Dreadnought, Force their Karn, dead. Game 2 I keep 4 land + Karn hand, get to Karn mana and shut off Welder with Humility (concedes). Interesting point in game 2, opponent opens City, Hope of Ghirapur + Grindstone + LED. I have the option with my 3rd land drop to Wasteland them, but I choose to build to Karn mana instead - this is an interesting point in the game. It's probably safer to Wasteland, but I didn't mind making them draw exactly Painter.

Round 2 vs UR Delver (2-1): Game 1 opponent is on the draw and opens Volc, Ponder. I Wasteland them and they are unable to find lands until they're already facing down active Azcanta, Teferi, and Standstill - at this point they concede, thinking they know what my deck is. Game 2 is pretty close but Pyromancer is able to get enough on board to out-pace my being on one white mana. Game 3 they keep a 7 with Tarn as only land and get Stifled out of the game, they never find land.

Round 3 vs Jeskai Mentor (2-0): Game 1 opponent is struggling to get to 4 mana and Stifle x2 are eating all their blue cards. They lose Teferi on the stack, and then lose JTMS on the stack on the next turn; They concede to Karn resolving. Game 2 Stifle again is eating all their blue cards, but this time I have two Factory in play and I'm letting them resolve Teferi into Teferi into JTMS. Teferi #1 dies to 2x Factory animate and Karn +1 on Astrolabe. Teferi #2 dies to dies to same attack after going [-3] after resolving. JTMS bstorms and dies in pretty much the same way. Opponent's REB sat in hand with nothing to target while I slowly assembled Crypt and worked towards Liquimetal to permanently remove red mana from their tableau; opponent concedes before Karn starts murdering basics.

Round 4 vs StryfoPile (ID, no match played).

The UR Delver player was new to legacy and ran into both Standstill/Stifle decks and uh...it was a pretty nasty into to legacy.

pandaman

02-19-2020, 10:25 PM

Breach is a tough MU i typically lose game 1. You have to try to restrict the first few turns i often will counter a brainstorm and try to hold up stifles on fetch. This is one MU where dispel truly shines. Hitting Veil FOW and chant is pretty large.

Dreadstill streams going live at 10 PM!

Hey Rood, when do you usually stream? I would love to tune in and watch you. Currently seeking Scroll of Fate to finish your version of the deck.

pandaman

02-22-2020, 07:02 AM

Playing through my first league on MODO. Scoop count to Dreadnought off Scroll of Fate is two so far.

Also, I'm not sure if this has been posted previously (I can't find it), but ELD's Time Vault Games has a bunch of videos of Rood playing Dreadstill against a number of decks. Link is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCibjRiauVZ0ZB7qwduUtB1A/videos.s

Fox

02-22-2020, 07:10 AM

You considered streaming or recording and putting on youtube @pandaman?

Rood also has a youtube channel (Rood Slayer), but right now the only mtgo video is B/R Worldgorger-Reanimator.

pandaman

02-23-2020, 03:57 AM

You considered streaming or recording and putting on youtube @pandaman?

Rood also has a youtube channel (Rood Slayer), but right now the only mtgo video is B/R Worldgorger-Reanimator.

I hadn't considered it. But one of my friends (DougesOnTwitch) streams, so I'll ask him how to do it.

First league was 3-2 and I made heaps of misplays and misclicks (was definitely good for 4-1 without those), but today I played another league and went 4-1. Beat Storm 2-1, Breach with Infernal Tutors 2-1, URx Breach 2-1, and Burn 2-0 (gotta love natural T2 Dreadnought in both games) but lost 1-2 in the final round to a spicy Mono Black brew with Hymns, Sinkholes, Cursed Scroll, LotV, Murderous Rider, etc.

crispymelee

02-23-2020, 11:29 AM

I hadn't considered it. But one of my friends (DougesOnTwitch) streams, so I'll ask him how to do it.

First league was 3-2 and I made heaps of misplays and misclicks (was definitely good for 4-1 without those), but today I played another league and went 4-1. Beat Storm 2-1, Breach with Infernal Tutors 2-1, URx Breach 2-1, and Burn 2-0 (gotta love natural T2 Dreadnought in both games) but lost 1-2 in the final round to a spicy Mono Black brew with Hymns, Sinkholes, Cursed Scroll, LotV, Murderous Rider, etc.

Nice results man. Mind posting your list? Wondering what splash you're running.

pandaman

02-23-2020, 05:50 PM

Red splash. I just took Rood's list from the first page. No changes at all. Shameless netdecking.

pandaman

02-23-2020, 07:07 PM

I'm thinking about sideboarding with Rood's list. A couple of things:

I don't know when you should bring in Dismember. I initially thought it was for Eldrazi (particularly Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer) but after watching some of Rood's videos it seems he brings it in for other matchups (I just watched him bring it in vs. Grixis Control, for example). I'm pretty sure Agent of Treachery is for Show and Tell decks. Extra True-Name Nemesis seems to be for control matchups (Miracles, Stryfo pile, 4C control, etc.) but I'm not sure whether I should also bring it in vs. Grixis Delver and UR Delver. Engineered Explosives. When should you bring them in? I thought in against Miracles (Counterbalance and Monk and Angel tokens). But I also considered bringing it in against Breach and Storm to combat a potential Empty the Warrens win. Or is Stifle enough insurance against that?

Also, Spell Snare seemed to be really good in Rood's matches that I watched. It counters a lot of important cards that we are seeing in the top decks: Counterbalance, Snapcaster Mage, Dreadhoard Archanist, Young Pyromancer, little Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, Baleful Strix, Daze, Underworld Breach, Predict. I might try a 2/2 split between Snare and Pierce. Thoughts?

Rood

02-24-2020, 12:40 AM

Sorry im bAck... good to see ya again Panda. TNN are to hose control and delver actually. Cards disgusting in all those matchups as well as D&T and lands. Dismembers come in vs a wide variety of decks its very good vs delver too actually and stoneblade/eldrazi. Agents are for show/tell. EE comes in in alot of MUs primary ones being chalice decks. I like it against TES and belcher too. Miracles w CB is fine or RIp/energy control (yes it exists on MTGO.) i have brought in EE vs delver its ok. Best vs death shadow. I wasnt playing true names but I added them back in and wouldnt consider playing less then 4. Gives us better outs vs the abrupt decay control decks.

Snare vs Pierce: I have a few 5-0s with both variants. The Snare version is superior vs plains (D&T, stoneblade) which can be tough MUs. Pierce is way better vs combo tho. Snare is bad vs the breach decks cuz they revolve around orims chant. Snare is wayyy better against control and delver also.

The deck in round 5 you faced sounds like a pox variant. That MU is tough cause they run factories/wastes for standstill

DKK

02-24-2020, 02:16 AM

Do you have an updated sideboard guide. What comes out is just as important as what goes in :)

Rood

02-24-2020, 03:23 AM

Do you have an updated sideboard guide. What comes out is just as important as what goes in :)

I finally updated the primer with a few of the metas popular decks at the moment. Will update slowly but please request a specific matchup if you are curious.

Red splash. I just took Rood's list from the first page. No changes at all. Shameless netdecking.

That's the way.

DKK

02-24-2020, 07:14 AM

I finally updated the primer with a few of the metas popular decks at the moment. Will update slowly but please request a specific matchup if you are curious.

Thanks! I would be interested in Eldrazi and Lands (decks with Chalice).

Playtested the list recently and feels like a house. Keep up the good work!

Fox

02-24-2020, 09:40 AM

For the UW version...
vs. Eldrazi Aggro: +1 Torpor Orb, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Porphyry Nodes, +1 Humility, +1 Scroll of Fate. -1 FoN, -1 JVP, -1 Snare, -1 Noxious, -1 Stfle.

vs. Lands (lands doesn’t have Chalice?): +1 Crypt, +1 RiP, +1 Ashiok, +1 Ratchet. Option to bring in +1 Crucible and +1 Humility. -1 Snare, -2 Verdict, -1 Standstill, then optional -1 Nought, -1 more Standstill).

vs. Loam (lands with Chalice and dudes): +1 Ashiok, +1 Scroll of Fate, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Mastery of the Unseen. Option for +1 Humility, +1 Crucible, +1 RiP. -1 Nought. -1 Noxious, -1 Stifle, -1 JVP (on the play)/-1 Snare (on the draw). Optional cuts can include -1 additional Nought, -1 FoW, -1 Standstill. Adapt strategy as necessary once variant is identified - classic vs 5c Oko vs 4c Oko w/o P-fire.

pandaman

02-25-2020, 11:55 PM

Took Rood's standard list for another spin on MODO. Went terribly, ending up with a 1-4 record.

R1 v Grixis Delver. G1 He had Daze for my Delver, Daze for my Standstill with Factory on the Board, and Force for my TNN. He then followed up with a Young Pyromancer and I don't draw anything to interact with it and die. G2 my T1 Delver flips natuarlly and gets there because opp can't find removal and I have enough countermagic to prevent him from putting down a faster clock. G3 hinges on my Standstill with my unflipped Delver on the Board, in response to the Standstill he flashes in Brazen Borrower. Or course, my Delver doesn't flip for another five turns so I can't chump block and I don't draw any Factories, so I lose.

R2 v 4-colour Snow Control with that Uro Titan thing. L0-2. G1 I have a Delver but he has a Plague Engineer naming Human before it flips. After Bolting the Engineer I had a Dreadnought and two Lightning Bolts with him at 18 life, and I swing with Dreadnought and Elk against his Elk for the win, but unfortunately he has Abrupt Decay for my Nought. After this he has all four Ice Fang Coatls to put a very effective wall up. Then Uro comes down to ruin my day. G2 I resolve a TNN but Force of Will an Oko, after which he plays a Plague Engineers naming Merfolk. Dreadnought is terrible v Oko so I lose this game in short order. The Force on Oko was a mistake. I should have identified that my path to winning the game was TNN and Plague Engineer was the only card the opponent had to disrupt that, so Force should have been reserved for Plague Engineer.

R3 v UWr Breach. W 2-0. G1 I disrupt his cantrips and that is enough for a Delver to crack in for the win. G2 I had an interesting situation where I had a Standstill and Stifle in hand and opp had a fetch and a basic. I had Delver on the board, and cast the Standstill. He then could crack his fetch without worrying about it being Stifled. I am not sure Standstill was the right play there. I think holding up Stifle with Delver pressure might have been correct. Also, is Scroll of Fate too slow against combo? Could it be correct to board it out? Or is in fact Standstill that you should be boarding out against combo? Anyway, he makes some land drops under Standstill and eventually cracks it for Underworld Breach, which I can't counter. G3 I slow him down with Pyroblast and Spell Pierce on his early cantrips. I eventually get and flip a Delver to start pressuring his life total. He casts Underworld Breach, I Spell Pierce, forcing him to crack his LED and go hellbent. With the Spell Pierce still on the stack I use Surgical Extraction on his LEDs and he concedes.

R4 v BUr Breach or Storm, I don't really know which (it had both Breach and Tendrils, but he killed me with Tendrils both times so maybe Bridge was just a one-of) - L 1-2. G1 permission disrupted him enough for a Delver and Stifled Nought to get there. G2 I mulled to six and bottomed a Factory without any other creature in hand. I definitely think this was a mistake. The game ran way longer than it probably needed to. I did eventually draw a Delver after many turns, but by then he'd drawn heaps of cards and could use them to force through a lethal Tendrils. G3 I have double Stifle and Nought, which I get down on T3 holding up Stifle. I used Stifle on a fetchland, which I don't think was correct. Against Storm, Stifle essentially reads "counter Tendrils of Agony" so I'm wondering if you shouldn't use your Stifles on fetches against Storm and should just make them have the discard for the Stifle if they want to win.

R5 v UW Miracles. L 0-2. Both games he has Terminus for my TNNs and Factories and outgrinds me with Predicts and Jace and Counterbalance and lots of counterspells, while I draw no Standstills or other relevant action.

So, pretty terrible third outing with the deck. But I'm learning and identifying misplays, so there is a positive. Still really unsure on correct boarding choices as I said above, whether Scrolls and Standstills should come out vs Combo. I tried taking out Wasteland against Miracles but I don't know if that was correct. Maybe it's also correct to take Wasteland out against Snoko because of Astrolabe and lots of basics.

Rocco111

02-26-2020, 02:35 PM

That is actually a very interesting post you made here, pandaman. Thanks. People (too) often write stuff when they win so readers can get the wrong idea that the deck just steam-rolls by itself. It is not. I love the deck and have being playing it regularly on cocka for quite some times now and always found that this deck is a Damocles sword: it either crushes opponents when cards comes the right way or just looses and leaves you with quite a bitter aftertaste. So yes, it defo is a "harder than you think" deck to play.

I too believe that Oko is just a freakin pain in the rear for this deck. Sure, REB or Pyroblast can deal with it but the card is still really troublesome. Decay has also been a massive annoyance which led me to main deck at least 1 Misdirection (instead of Force of Negation). Admittedly it is not always optimal (especially if opponent has nothing on his side to redirect to) but it still gives a shimmer of hope with a Standstill on the board.
Boarding out Wasteland vs Snoko.deck still sounds like a bad idea. After all, you still need your land drops and you can always nuke a dual every now and then.

Lowering the count of Scroll vs Combo seems right. But I would not cut all of them. Should the game drag for too long, it still converts otherwise useless cards into additional threats. Cutting Standstill is quite a tough call, also because normally they will tend to Duress us before the take off so drawing an extra 3 cards might just give us the answer(s) we need to prevent the loss caused by the Duress.

Another deck I found to be pretty tricky to play against is Lands. G1, Standstill often turns out to be more a dead card (if not a free Thrall for the opponent) than anything else. They can easily disrupt our manabase (especially Mishra). And most of our counters are plain useless. Post-side, depending on what we play, the sole "real" options are bouncing spells and Needle. The rest is just jank. So am more and more tempted by cutting the 3rd REB to make room for a Blood Moon. Downside is obviously that it hurts our Mishras (the Wastelands too but the card is just suboptimal here anyways). Upside would be that we can simply focus on protecting the Moon, land a threat a ride from then on. But frankly, am all ears to suggestion for this specific MU.

Tobitzki

02-26-2020, 08:17 PM

oh my, the naughty Hong Kong spice:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24746&d=373157&f=LE

Has Mirage Mirror been discussed here before?

crispymelee

02-27-2020, 02:14 AM

@ pandaman: No worries. Practically all my tourney reports thus far are L's. It's just a bunch of me learning, and given the time I actually have to practice, a lot of it is learning on the fly.

oh my, the naughty Hong Kong spice:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24746&d=373157&f=LE

Has Mirage Mirror been discussed here before?

Neat list. Don't recall seeing Mirage Mirror come up, at least in what I've read. This list seems to be geared more towards comboing off as opposed to a steady beatdown or slow grind. Looks like a blast, but I'd say it's pretty distinct than your traditional Dreadstill list. ("Turbo Depths" that happens to have a Nought package).

ScottW

02-27-2020, 09:39 AM

Took Rood's standard list for another spin on MODO. Went terribly, ending up with a 1-4 record.

R4 v BUr Breach or Storm, I don't really know which (it had both Breach and Tendrils, but he killed me with Tendrils both times so maybe Bridge was just a one-of) - L 1-2. G1 permission disrupted him enough for a Delver and Stifled Nought to get there. G2 I mulled to six and bottomed a Factory without any other creature in hand. I definitely think this was a mistake. The game ran way longer than it probably needed to. I did eventually draw a Delver after many turns, but by then he'd drawn heaps of cards and could use them to force through a lethal Tendrils. G3 I have double Stifle and Nought, which I get down on T3 holding up Stifle. I used Stifle on a fetchland, which I don't think was correct. Against Storm, Stifle essentially reads "counter Tendrils of Agony" so I'm wondering if you shouldn't use your Stifles on fetches against Storm and should just make them have the discard for the Stifle if they want to win.

I was your R4 opponent. I wanted to comment to you after g2 how much I enjoyed our match regardless of the W/L since it seemed so interactive from my point of view but maybe you disagree. I tend to go long in games... I think stifle on fetch can be good most often since I'll likely have discard or go through pif to check for the stifle before casting a storm card but there are the times when I have a flood of lands and I use them to duress you. G3 was well played I think and I was lucky to have it that turn. I can't recall exactly (modo replay is not working for me) but I think I remember knowing the coast was clear so I had discard or something. Your play makes more sense too since you had a 12/12 in play and I had only 2 turns. It's circumstantial and not always so clear.

pandaman

02-27-2020, 08:23 PM

I was your R4 opponent. I wanted to comment to you after g2 how much I enjoyed our match regardless of the W/L since it seemed so interactive from my point of view but maybe you disagree. I tend to go long in games... I think stifle on fetch can be good most often since I'll likely have discard or go through pif to check for the stifle before casting a storm card but there are the times when I have a flood of lands and I use them to duress you. G3 was well played I think and I was lucky to have it that turn. I can't recall exactly (modo replay is not working for me) but I think I remember knowing the coast was clear so I had discard or something. Your play makes more sense too since you had a 12/12 in play and I had only 2 turns. It's circumstantial and not always so clear.

Thanks, it was indeed a good set of games! Playing against Storm is always nerve-wracking but enjoyable. That's a good point you make, that if you have PiF you'll most likely check for Stifle with a discard spell from your GY. My replay for that match isn't working either, or I'd watch it back to make sure I'm remembering it correctly.

Fox

02-29-2020, 04:46 PM

@pandaman on some of SBing you saw in Rood’s UR play: when it comes to Dismember and EE, it is generally best to view this as the “Standstill [w/o Nought] is enough” to grind out a win. As hard as a lot of the SBing can be, always do a post-mortem on Factory use and make sure manland decisions complemented the post-board vision. The manland play patterns should be looking different. Some of the higher yield scenarios are:
3-4 land + Standstill onboard
only 1 blue mana on board (usually Fetch Mountain board states)

What resource are you trying to trade, what was the objective (i.e. if you’re boarding to grind, why did 2 points matter right at that time), how important is playing around future soft permission, are you letting opponent back into the game with a future Wasteland by exposing a land to a spell, etc...

It’s not the most specific advice, but a lot of SB choices come down to how you plan on winning/how you want opponent to trade resources.

@Tobitzki yes, Mirage Mirror was discussed when it was spoiled. The issue is that you’ve got a 2+ mana enabler that still loses to Chalice and doesn’t offer any meaningful resistance/disruption to opposing strategies. While Mirror works with Dreadnought and Depths, these strategies do little to help each other. Draw the correct half of the deck and maybe you somehow beat (or avoid) SCM/Plow-type strategies. At the end of the day though, you’re still trying to bash everything in [effectively] the same way without sidestepping potential issues nor offering different puzzles. The deck can be reduced to mono-U Dreadnought with another color used solely to offer more of the same (either Depths or Hunted Horrors being the most common).

davide

03-01-2020, 12:02 PM

@fox are u still on the same list ? (Page one) I will start to test your version vs ur Delver, sneak and show

Fox

03-01-2020, 12:14 PM

Yep, same list. Keep Brazen Borrower in mind when playing Standstill (vs. UR Delver) and cut the Snare vs SnT.

pandaman

03-04-2020, 05:27 AM

D&T seems an awful matchup. They have four Wasteland and four Rishadan Port for our Factories, a load of must counter grindy cards like Aether Vial (nullifies Standstill) and Stoneforge Mystic (gets equipment that is great against Delver and Manifested cards), and eight ways to deal with Dreadnought (Plow and Flickerwisp). Not to mention maindeck Revoker on Scroll of Fate. What's the strategy? Is it to resolve an early Nought and just hope to ride it to the win by countering Plow and Wisp? Or are we trying to go long with Scroll of Fate?

Fox

03-04-2020, 07:14 AM

DnT isn’t so bad, and SBing begins with -3 or -4 Standstill. I lean towards cutting Daze down to ~2x copies (you’re trying to win with TNN and Scroll). Looking at Rood’s list on first page, TNNs come in, Abrade comes in, EE in, and a Dismember in. Pierce is not amazing vs DnT, but SB lacks more than the second copy of Dismember to replace them with.

In terms of beating DnT, you can either abuse TNN or construct differently with maindeck Grim Lavamancers, SB 2x Sulfur Elemental (or 1/1 split with Staticaster), 2x Abrade, Torpor Orb.

Mr. Safety

03-04-2020, 08:21 AM

In my limited experience against D&T, the most impactful cards were Grim Lavamancer and Torpor Orb. Torpor Orb t2 on the play is back-breaking. Quick Dreadnought can usually get there, t2-3 usually means you can race. I don't recommend going long, it just gives them time to spam tons of little dudes onto the battlefield. Pyroclasm is another decent card against them. Spell Snare is surprisingly good against their deck if you can keep them off an early Aether Vial.

pandaman

03-07-2020, 01:23 AM

Took Rood’s list with some sideboard changes to local Win A Dual. 3-2 10th place. Manifested a couple of Noughts. Manifesting cards with Scroll of Fate is surprisingly good, won me two games. One was Chalice on 1, which meant I was just manifesting all my Brainstorms and Stifles and beating down! Had fun.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Fox

03-07-2020, 08:35 PM

Only had 7 decks in the room but everyone agreed to 4 rounds, so some strange pairings in the last round. RUG Delver (Hootie and the ProFish), UR Landstill (~Dreadstill w/o Nought), StryfoPile, Goblins, Eldrazi Aggro, Jund, and manifest destiny.

Round 1 vs Hootie and the ProFish (2-1): game 1 opponent keeps a 1-lander (Fetch), but wins the die roll and so I don't auto-win off the Stifle and FoW in my hand. Game 2 I am able to get my mana establised and end up winning with a Nought off Scroll. Game 3 my mana is okay and opponent ends up running into a few Teferi to bounce his Delver (only threat), which ends up also eating 2x Bolt from his hand. A followup JVP duresses another Bolt, and after exhanges like these opponent has too little in hand to prevent Scroll from coming down. Scroll goes on to gobble up a pair of Stifles before deploying a Nought, which ends the game. In all 3 games opponent was the only one able to aggressively use Stifle and Wasteland, but my defensive Stifles were enough to duress blue cards from hand (they don't really have a choice b/c if I get lands, all their soft permission become dead cards).

Round 2 vs UR Landstill (2-0): game 1 I'm able to get to a mid-game where I resolve a Dreadnought on 11 life vs a Delver and win the race. Game 2 the opponent is a little stuck on lands and ends up staring down a Karn which wished up the Cursed Scroll machine gun and a Crucible before dying to 2x SCM (so gained 4 life as well). With the Factory/Wasteland dominance of Crucible and control of the Scroll, I end up getting there. This isn't a great matchup, but it's aided by being the reactive party in a Factory mirror (they have to expose Factory and try to get damage in early).

Round 3 vs Jund (2-0): game 1 they're spamming discard into Hymn, and are hitting my payoff cards, but their followup of Confidant -> BBE flip Goyf ends up dying to a Verdict and they can't recover. Game 2 they have the same discard-heavy opening but stumble on lands. I'm able to resolve Ashiok and [-1] which mills over 3 lands and a BBE, and they are forced to Decay (-1 turn due to lost card and tap out). The next turn I cast Crucible (boarded in) and my Factories bleed them out of resources for no gain; I think I recurred 4 Factory before Crucible duressed their next Decay.

Round 4 vs Goblins (2-0): game 1 I hit a Fetch with Stifle and that tempo leads to creating a window for a Dreadnought to get a hit in and then get protected from Cratermaker (Stifle). Game 2 I'm able to bounce their Vial with a Teferi and counter it on the back end; this leads to a grindy game where Scroll is able to stall them out with 2/2s after a brief period of racing (their 3/3 Chainwhirler vs my 2x2/2s swinging back). I topdeck Porphyry Nodes, which is picking off their 1/1 and 2/2 army, and have 2x Stifle for their 2x Ringleader triggers, and the 1-sided abyss [Nodes always chooses their 2/2s before mine] is able to end the game by default.

It was a big day for JVP surprisingly. It's been a couple years since I've gone [-3] on FoW in yard to enable alt-cast, followed by making a Nought. Also had a number of interesting spots where I'd put a Brainstorm on the stack and hold priority for Cursed Scroll activation (temporarily putting hand size to 1).

crispymelee

03-12-2020, 04:23 PM

Underworld Breach has been banned, but Oko remains. Looks like we're living in an Oko world for a while yet.

On the dev side of things, not too much going on except for planning to take an UG list out this upcoming week. Will let you guys know how it goes!

Fox

03-12-2020, 10:42 PM

@crispymelee what's the decklist you're gonna run?

pandaman

03-14-2020, 11:08 PM

Ran Rood's list through another league, going 3-2.

R1 v Mono Black win 2-1. G1 I fight through a Liliana with a Bolt after losing my Delver to its sacrifice ability, and then draw Scroll to manifest a Nought which gets there in one turn thanks to some Mishra's Factory beats earlier in the game. G2 he has T1 Unmask into Bob, which gets him all the cards he needs to frustrate my attempts to get a board, and I die to Bob and Regisaur. G3 he again has a T1 Bob, but I manage to get a Nought down with Stifle that, amazingly, doesn't die to anything, and I follow up with a Standstill the next turn. He flips Liliana's Triumph and casts it, but my Standstill draws me a Daze and I can Daze because his Chrome Mox is shut off by the Null Rod he boarded in for Scroll. Dreadnought wins the race easily from there.

R2 v Mon G Cloudpost win 2-0. Both games I have early StifleNought. In G2 he casts Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm but he's already on 4 life so he can't keep it going for long enough to draw into anything relevant.

R3 v Burn w 2-1. G1 I have a T2 StifleNought and race him successfully. G2 I have a T3 Scroll into Nought but on the draw it's not quick enough and he burns me out with Exquisite Firecraft, which I can't counter. G3 I keep a hand with no threats but double Stifle, FoW, Spell Pierce, Standstill, and two Islands. His first land is a fetch,which I stifle, and he proceeds to draw and discard for four turns while I draw lands and build up my mana. His second land is also a fetch, which also meets Stifle, followed by another four or so turns of draw discard. He finally draws a Mountain but I FoW his Goblin Guide and draw Phyrexian Dreadnought which I cast with my third Stifle, and which is good enough to race again.

R4 v Rg Painter. L 1-2. Mulligan to 5 first two games. Punted G2 by missing an attack with Factory which would have given me 1 turn lethal with Delver and TNN, but fortunately he tapped Ancient Tomb and gave me lethal anyway. G3 my Delver wouldn't flip so no pressure and he used Bomat Courier to cycle through his deck and drew the combo and I had no way to stop it.

R5 v Doomsday. L 1-2. Decent pressure G1 got me there, but G2 my FoW on his Doomsday got Veil'd and G3 I had lethal damage if he had a pass the turn Doomday pile (Nought off Scroll after his Doomsday took him to 9 life) but he had a pile that could win the same turn.

I think I might have sideboarded wrong for Painter. Do you leave Spell Pierce in or take it out?

Fox

03-15-2020, 05:05 PM

@pandaman when it comes to Painter, it's going to depend on what you're trying to counter. Keeping in Pierce is going to keep Karn off the table, but it's not always going to be the best vs their REBs. The proactive Pierce can be dead rather quickly, and the reactive Pierce isn't really going to go live until they've already committed 3 mana to Grindstone. Even against SSG I like Daze more since it might hit a Welder or Magus, and will blank REBs turned on your lands. Since Karn is your best Pierce target (can't be recurred by Welder), you should have more than enough time to get a few draw steps into the game. Since you're probably not caring about the noncreature spells of the first three turns, I think it's fine to cut down to ~2x.
---
Looks like CalebDMTG did a UG Dreadnought league (recorded on twitch, 2 day old video, from time of my post); the list was highly questionable. Pretty much unable to operate below 3 mana, still played Daze, and with all the structural problems it played 4 Ponder, 1 Preordain, and 4x Astro to....draw into the construction flaws quicker. It also built rather heavily into loss to yard hate. It's a pretty good example of how not to build the deck. I didn't watch the league, but I imagine it's going to highlight timing issues and lack of synergy quite well with this style of build.

crispymelee

03-16-2020, 02:45 AM

@crispymelee what's the decklist you're gonna run?

Pretty much card for card what you had posted before (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8964-Deck-Dreadstill-Enter-the-Fist&p=1079859&viewfull=1#post1079859). Differences are:

-1 Noxious
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Wasteland
+2 Astrolabe
+1 Academy Ruins

SB:
1x CoW
1x Cursed Scroll
1x EE
1x Liquimetal
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Tormod's
1x RiP
1x Karakas
3x Display of Dominance
2x Force of Vigor
2x Spell Pierce
///
Surgical
E.Tutor
Leyline/Void
Dreadnought

Tested the list in a Bant form (wack manabase, dropping Coatls for StP, Mirri's Guile in over Library bc I didn't have one at the time, some other minor tweaks I can't recall), and there just wasn't much to gain for such a varied manabase. Karakas out of the side and the Astrolabes just made more sense. The one time StP would have been relevant (vs Depths), never saw one after a few turns with Guile up and a Brainstorm + fetches . C'est la vie. The Ruins in place of Wasteland #4 was mostly just bc I lack a 4th Waste, but it was nice to have the option to recur artifacts. With Lotus Field in the list, the Astrolabes felt important since without them, we can't flip a Manifested Uro with Field on its own; felt bad to lose out on 1 mana trying to flip him with no Astrolabes (UUU or GGG + the missing color with no Astrolabe).

SB, I'd love to have more gy-hate. At the moment, it's a generic Karn-board with green options.

Looks like CalebDMTG did a UG Dreadnought league (recorded on twitch, 2 day old video, from time of my post); the list was highly questionable. Pretty much unable to operate below 3 mana, still played Daze, and with all the structural problems it played 4 Ponder, 1 Preordain, and 4x Astro to....draw into the construction flaws quicker. It also built rather heavily into loss to yard hate. It's a pretty good example of how not to build the deck. I didn't watch the league, but I imagine it's going to highlight timing issues and lack of synergy quite well with this style of build.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/566748583?t=02h20m33s - start of the DreadUro construction and discussion. 1st match at 2h45 The list it looked like he ended up taking:

1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Snow Island
1x Snow Forest
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

3x Mishra's Bauble
3x Scroll of Fate
3x Torpor Orb
4x Astrolabe

3x Dreadnought
3x Uro
3x Emry

3x Daze
4x FoW
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Rood

03-16-2020, 09:38 PM

pandaman

03-19-2020, 03:10 AM

The goal is the either get down a DN or postboard use delvers and 4 TNN to punish. True name is very decent against them they have 1 or 2 councils judgement.

So you're saying sideboard Dreadnought out for G2 and 3?

KobeBryan

03-19-2020, 11:12 AM

So you're saying sideboard Dreadnought out for G2 and 3?

If you hate them so much. Play the black version for plague engineer

Fox

03-19-2020, 02:49 PM

If you hate them so much. Play the black version for plague engineer
Bending over backwards to beat DnT isn‘t a broadly viable strategy in legacy. There‘s no need to play non-engine answers to DnT, given how one-dimensional Cavern/Vial makes a deck. If you really want to get DnT, you have maindeck Grim Lavamancers and SB Torpor Orb. If you want to take out Mentor at the same time, you add SB Sulfur Elementals.

Plague Engineer takes you into UB, which begins to lack a plan for winning outside of 2x Dreadnought hits. You can look at UB Shadow and see this idea of using Plague Engineer [vs DnT] not really pan out, because the plan behind it still doesn‘t line up that well. You also are now in colors that just kinda lose to Oko, and Plague on Elk isn‘t exactly a great place to be. The inability to contest artifacts in UB is also problematic, so the DnT matchup isn‘t really improving.

@pandaman is using UR Nought with Standstill; there is no [competitive] black version. Black is a color that lets you play off-the-table to maximize board wipes, so it‘s highly unlikely that UB Dreadstill can outperform UB Standstill (since the Dreadnought version kinda has to play into its own wraths...and you don‘t really get to play wraths if you‘re picking up lands with Daze). You can play Delver/Confidant + no Standstill as UB Nought, but it‘s not as winning as UR or UW Dreadstill (and these are more-winning presentations than non-Dreadnought Standstill in those colors). Also a UB tempo version would have a really hard time getting to 20dmg through something as simple as Surgical target Dreadnought.

crispymelee

03-19-2020, 03:20 PM

So you're saying sideboard Dreadnought out for G2 and 3?

Against DnT (or any deck abusing Vials), you're probably going to want to look at boarding out some number of Standstills first. They just abuse it better than us.

G2, FoW (and FoN if you run it) and Daze can stay in if you're on the play; on the draw, you'll likely cut the Dazes for some secondary counter (Pierce, Mystical Dispute, Spell Snare) and keep in your Forces to stop the T1 Vial. I like to keep in the Dreads if only because theyre a magnet for removal and help clear the way for Delvers and TNN. EE if you have them in the board is a nice option for Moms, Givers, and Vials. Rood's right in that we just have to get in a threat early, and try to protect and ride it.

Mr. Safety

03-20-2020, 08:41 AM

If you hate them so much. Play the black version for plague engineer

Plague Engineer takes you into UB, which begins to lack a plan for winning outside of 2x Dreadnought hits. You can look at UB Shadow and see this idea of using Plague Engineer [vs DnT] not really pan out, because the plan behind it still doesn‘t line up that well. You also are now in colors that just kinda lose to Oko, and Plague on Elk isn‘t exactly a great place to be. The inability to contest artifacts in UB is also problematic, so the DnT matchup isn‘t really improving.

A few observations I have made trying UB Dreadnought:

1) I liked Dark Confidant over Standstill, which is much better against D&T and provides another threat/blocker.
2) Brazen Borrower is a fantastic card against D&T and most matchups in general. I like them maindeck as disruption, outs to Marit Lage, and pure tempo by bouncing something and then being a 3/1 flyer.
3) Oko is tough, but there are some interactions that UR and UW don't have access to: Thoughtseize, Toxic Deluge, and Shadow + Stubborn Denial. You are weak to Oko if you don't plan for it, but the rest of their deck (meaning Miracles, 4C Piles) aren't unmanageable.
4) I highly recommend playing Force of Negation in the maindeck, probably x2, in any version of Dreadstill. It's additional interaction t0 for Vials and lets you get your Force count up for Oko.
5) You can combo finish with Rite of Consumption (which I am testing ATM now that I have gone bust on Bazaar Trademage testing in other decks.) One hit from a 9/9 or 10/10 shadow (or Dreadnought) and finish with Rite of Consumption. It's similar to the Berserk plan that BUG Shadow was doing but allows you to stay in UB. It can also make it so you don't lose to your own Confidants (something I have done more times than I care to admit.)
6) Somehow, everyone always forgets about Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle as answers to Oko. No they aren't ideal, but honestly, what is ideal against a PW that powerful? Some decks can just ignore it (TES, Eldrazi) and others can just answer it with Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment. The rest of us need something less than perfect to deal with it, but that doesn't mean you'll always auto-lose to Oko.

There isn't a known list that has been putting up results, but I'll be damned if it isn't a fun deck to pilot. Once you let go of Standstill a lot of other options open up that might be less powerful in certain situations but are better overall against a broad metagame.

Rood

03-20-2020, 10:36 AM

So you're saying sideboard Dreadnought out for G2 and 3?

I board out 1 dreadnought 2 standstills 2-3 stifles 1 daze on the draw. On the play i leave in 3 standstills because the threat of t1 delver into standstill. 2 TNN, 2 dismember, 2 EE 1 abrade come in.

Tobitzki

04-05-2020, 01:14 AM

They did it, fam: Looks like we finally got that mythical 2-drop we always wished for.

Heavenly Whale
(look it up; I don't know how to post images here)

card advantage + beatdown in one. Bye bye JVP; bye for now, Bob.

I could not be happier with this. Not least because imo a floating Whale juuust dodges the undignified goofiness of a Sharknado or the new Troll Dolltm Pet Dragon. This is a huge boost for a pure tempo build w/ neither Standstills nor Scrolls. This is my starting point:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2896227#paper

It's just Stifle Delver with Dreadnought as the top-end threat. The Nivmagus / Flusterstorm package is not essential; mainboard the TNNs otherwise. Depending on meta & preference, the Bolts could just as well be Swords (with T3feri & Disenchant out of the board), Thoughtseize/Push/Drown (w SB Engineered Explosives, Bitterblossom) or even Dismembers with some # of Veil & Oko in the side.

Fox

04-05-2020, 01:55 AM

I don’t know how effective this Heavenly Whale will be, it’s sorcery speed (so you’re getting nothing vs Oko) and probably not better than Dreadhorde...like it’s better with Stifle, but a lot more preconditions for casting. I think I’d still run Snapcaster over either of them in the value department (though you’d need more lands). You’re still dying to Goyf with this card, and you’ve got substantial questions vs Oko and Uro. I don’t see having no Scroll as resulting in a more winning deck, the card is just absurdly powerful. You give the Whale haste or flash and maybe I’d change assessment.

I think the cycling-turtle and shark’nado are closer to hits, though probably not going to work in a Dreadnought shell due to lack of slots (like 1x Shark’nado would be playable). Nesting Grounds is quite good as a novel anti-Chalice/anti-Vial card (though we’d need charge counter cards). Boon of the Wish-Giver is playable, but pointless. Call of the Death-Dweller can cheat in a Dreadnought with 2 in the yard (But worse than a PW or Scroll at cmc3). Keep Safe is not entirely unreasonable.

Nothing really there for Dreadnought yet, but I’d pick up cycle-Turtle if below $5, 2x Shark’nado if $1, 2x Nesting Grounds $2 or less. Heavenly Whale is better than complete whiffs like Pteramander and Vantress, but I think it lives in the Tasigur/JVP/Stratus Dancer/Fathom Seer/Thing in the Ice/etc. bracket; like it’s fine, but you need to have a whole bunch of other things going on b/c these cards don’t answer questions posed by the legacy format.

As far as the rest of the format goes, due to the effortlessness of using Dreadhorde I think this Whale will probably be a flop; which is at least fitting for a fish.

Tobitzki

04-05-2020, 03:37 AM

I don’t know how effective this Heavenly Whale will be.

To clarify, I'm not excited because it's exactly super busted but rather because I consider it highly playable, interesting and well-balanced play design. Having said that, I think you're overly pessimistic since you're looking through the Standstill lens. If Standstill's (extremely play/draw-dependent) ceiling is 1U: draw 3, Whale's is UU: draw 4 spells, get a 3/3 flyer. I get that, realistically, it'll be more like 2-3 spells and it won't often come down before T3. (even tho T1 fetch > Stifle, Force their Force, T2 fetch > Whale is a line that can happen).

Arcanist is a stronger card in general but, as Rich Cali has been pointing out, it comes with the very real deck building cost of filling yr deck with air (2-3 Preordains) and it disincentivizes holding up mana. The Whale synergizes perfectly with Stifle at a much higher power level than JVP. (This is not close: it's a 3/3 flying JVP that doesn't loot once or twice). Buying back an early Daze or a mid-game FoN is huge, not to mention reusing Stifle for hardcasting 12/12. All of these value creatures (except for Snap, who is for a different deck as you pointed out) need to untap to do their thing, and you could honestly do worse than having your 2-drop 3/3 Elked.

You know I've been jamming Scrolls in a UB tempo list with no Standstills, so for me the question is whether this turns out to be better than that, and I think that's a very open question.

Fox

04-05-2020, 04:07 AM

The sorcery speed, wait a turn for maybe-value cards are always a tough sell. Confidant scores some points b/c you have this built-in mechanism that punishes opponents for giving you life with Plow. You look at the Whale and those Plows are going to slow down your delving, and you’re going to get into a prolonged game where you’re trying to beat Uro with a delayed 3/3. There’s other things in the format, but half-ish of the Oko/Uro decks will be StP-users ~ may as well plan around worst case scenario.

This card should should probably just be an Uro (which would screw up your colors, so you can’t really do that), or at least match up well against it. It feels like the speed of this card signs you up for a long game your deck isn’t meant to play (Probably not casting this reliably until turn 4). Coming down so late is going to walk into Daze-proof Snapcasters & Ice-Fangs instead of pressuring early removal sources (like Confidant does). I suspect this card leads to a mismatch of timings where it hurts the Daze/Wasteland/Stifle plan, and then comes down solo (no support from the mana denial package). For the rest of legacy I can’t really think of a deck playing at the slower speeds which would choose this over a PW/Uro.

Tobitzki

04-05-2020, 04:51 AM

I suspect this card leads to a mismatch of timings where it hurts the Daze/Wasteland/Stifle plan, and then comes down solo (no support from the mana denial package). For the rest of legacy I can’t really think of a deck playing at the slower speeds which would choose this over a PW/Uro.

Um, that deck is tempo / Delver? Look at the whale as a weird chimera of Delver, Arcanist and Hooting Mandrills. I respectfully disagree that it doesn't gel with our mana denial. I was coming at the card from the UR Delver angle, where the 3/3 evasive body is a real asset among all those 2/1s, 1/3s, and 3/1s, and then I realized that buying back Stifles allows us up to include a couple or more Dreadnoughts. Again: buying back reactive spells is a big upgrade over what Bob and Arcanist do. It's what made JVP borderline playable in the first place. For Uro and Oko there are other answers: red blasts, Submerges, etc.

Let's just try it out and see.

Mr. Safety

04-05-2020, 10:02 AM

I don't think Heavenly Whale is playable, because it's a 3/3. I think it falls into the category of Pteramander and Cryptic Serpent: close, but not reliable enough to make it long term in legacy. People will try it, it will win some games, but I don't think it's enough. Arcanist and Confidant are both still better than this. All die to bolt, some have significantly more potential if protected.

At 4/4 its playable, maybe even as a 3/4. Delver is more efficient, True Name has better text. I feel the wisdom of Admiral Ackbar is appropriate here.

Fox

04-05-2020, 12:39 PM

The issue with comparing Whale to Mandrils and other [RUG] Delver staples is that their deck gets ahead in a very aggressive way, to the point that it lacks a comeback mechanism. Dreadnought steps back on the aggression and says “I can create this tempo bubble wherein atypical magic can happen, and this can be done b/c a 1 mana 12/12 is a tempo reservoir.” This Whale exists outside that bubble, meaning you’re not really going to reliably be able to do the mana denial/count to 20 combo, having Whale come in on time and then bridging the transition to Dreadnought (rebuying Stifle). It’s more likely that you’re forcing yourself to play sorc-speed Dreadnoughts before you can play the Whale, and you’re left with a 3/3 on turn 4 just isn’t gonna get there (Oko and Uro are already gaining 3 per turn, so now you can’t even get bailed out by following Dreadnoughts).

Delver isn’t winning games by playing 6-8 wincon cards they can’t deploy from hand early. It’s fine to test things, but I don’t think this Whale will lead to advantageous timing windows/threat sequencing. It’s a card I wouldn’t buy if it cost over $2. It feels a little too much like playing Dreadnought and Strix, then justifying the value trigger by using Soul Flayer (4/4 flying deathtouch trample).

Edit: the other thing about RUG Delver is that their answer to dying to Goyf is the nuclear option (Goyf + Bolt, to win the mirror fight). Whale still has significant "I'm dying to Goyf" issues it hasn't answered.

Tobitzki

04-05-2020, 10:13 PM

Look, folks: It's a new toy. Sultai Scavenger with inbuilt CA. Most people's immediate reference point seems to be Arcanist, the single most impactful addition to Delver in the past few years and now widely regarded to be the best creature in those decks. (The latest RUG renaissance is only a couple of weeks old at this point, and @Fox your points about Delver don't really apply to UR and Grixis with Arcanist and Bedlam.) Whale is not quite on par with DHA, but synergizes with Stifle. Basic math also shows that the it's more powerful/less situational than Pteramander, Gargoyle, JVP, Cryptic Serpent. My estimation is that if we have any early plays at all, it can come down T3 more often than T4. (just think of any of those Delver openings involving Daze, Wasteland, Bolt/Stifle/cantrip/Force.) But as complex and contingent as this game is, play patterns / sequencing / etc. is all just hypothetical at this point. Based on that kind of thinking Arcanist was slept on at first too. Then he just transformed those patterns and here we are.

Rood

04-07-2020, 06:13 PM

Thoughts of Yidaro, Wandering Monster in this deck? It gives us another way to abuse people trying to sit under a Standstill by just cantripping this guy and letting him shuffle back in. I could see this card being very good for us here.

Fox

04-07-2020, 07:56 PM

Yidaro has some issues with timing which Standstill can‘t overcome, namely that you need the ability to race an otherwise poor matchup. It is technically fine in UR, but you need the tempo plan to be online, otherwise by the time you make him opponents will have a hand full of removal (Delvers need to be discarding removal spells). The real issue is that you have to keep the Dreadnought stuff going, or you‘re going to lose to Standstill‘s traditionally bad matchups (Vial, yard combos, Post, Burn/counterburn). So knowing that you need the tempo slots for Delver, and you still need the Dreadnought side, you won‘t have room for enough copies of this guy to hit the battlefield (very hard to draw a 1-2x copies four times in a game).

The fix to all this is playing UWr for Teferi, Karakas, and better removal (StP and true Wrath-effects). Once you have Teferi, you no longer care how many removal spells an opponent has in hand b/c they can‘t ever cast them (Teferi passive), and you can bounce him back to hand to repeat attacks with Teferi [-3] or Karakas. Now that you don‘t care about them having removal you don‘t need Delver as Duress...which now leads to not needing Daze (and not wanting to cast Daze b/c you‘re trying to cast a 3-dop) <- this is convenient b/c we already dropped Bolt for Plow and are interested in Wrath.

Running 3c is highly dubious with any Dreadnought strategy, and we‘re putting a high quality wincon [cycle-turtle] on a minority color. Can‘t really afford to run a basic Mountain, and Volc is gonna be a significant source of losing to Wasteland. Now it‘s possible to work around having Volc with Astrolabe singleton w/ E-Tutor trick (playing 3-4x Astrolabe without Oko will never compete in legacy; loss of slots is too high). You get 2x E-Tutor and it can give you the Astrolabe (with a 1x being effective 3x) while staying slot-neutral; as you‘re able to trim artifact/enchants without noticing much of a difference.

So we know the colors, how to secure the mana, and assembled a coherent & high quality late-game wincon. The issue is still the bit about getting to that point. I‘ve played a ton of UW Standstill, and the things that deck can‘t overcome are Oko and Burn/counterburn. Budget Delver (UR) is not a good Delver deck compared to Delver decks that had DRS, and it‘s that banning which lets them exist as more than a meme. The extra Bolts they have are a real problem b/c sitting behind a Standstill can‘t beat draw/discarding into a hand full of burn. Between UR Delver and Oko, the no-Dreadnought UW Standstill deck cannot be considered competitive at this time; adding some red for the cycle-turle doesn‘t fix this fundamental structural flaw.

Whether UWr or UR, both strategies still need the Dreadnought stuff, so we don‘t really have the time nor slots to engage in cycling for an 8/8. In a match where we could get away with that, we could just have brought in a 1x from the SB: 13/13 Emrakul, 6cmc Ugin, 6cmc Chandra, etc.

The UWr cycle-turtle is really close to being a finished list, but it needs to see Oko banned and DRS unbanned (DRS would never be able to pressure under a Standstill b/c tapping down would result in a response 8/8). Barring that, it needs cards that don‘t exist yet.

Fallen_Empire

04-07-2020, 11:16 PM

frustanani

04-08-2020, 05:18 AM

I agree with Tobitzki
I think the new Whale is extremely good. She makes fast pressure, as Delver does too.
The Whale could be a MUST KILL creature for our opponent to provide us from making card advantage.
Having 8 of those creatures could clear the way for Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Also this creature could be a "must kill"

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/kspCJuVt3Ma3NPjrNDOeCFi6kmPIQWM1odEiCHwWy39uCaYINeOeoKAppiqt-Na8QF6VT3HKUE8QzBBcyX26S8qJZcl2P4Fova04ULN8e4p7Y0h9XsH2J55sv0Gm7Af536jBFKdC14jpIg4H7ebiG5ptmV0mI2JhN-t0sfRo6sSifhh3

That's my idea

8 Fetchlands
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Fiery Islet
4 Wasteland

2 Brazen Borrower
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Heavenly Whale
2 Sea-Dasher Octopus
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

1 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Stifle
1 Vision Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt

KobeBryan

04-08-2020, 02:25 PM

The whale isn't that good compared to that Cycling guy that Rood suggested that plays around standstill

Now you have 8 cards to burn standstill with

Fox

04-08-2020, 09:41 PM

How crazy would it be to run UB? I've been having fun running black on mtgo.
I don’t know that UB really gains much by running Dreadnought. They aren’t really winning with combat damage, and it’s already in their interest to run Karn (the only profitable way for them to kill a Chalice). At most they’d have 1x Scroll main and a 1x Dreadnought in the board, b/c that’s all they’d really need.

Having access to Drown in the Loch relieves a lot of pressure on their life total, and Murderous Rider fixes any PW problem while also offering life gain. Stay off board and spam some Innocent Blood and they should be doing just fine.

Tobitzki

04-09-2020, 07:57 AM

@Fox All that matters is that UB (like UW) gets access to Sideboard Cat. This whole mechanic is incredibly dumb, overpowered and unfortunate. I anticipate a looming meta of Cat Storm; Cat Grixis Delver, Fox Bomber variants plus the Oko piles. But in any case, they printed it, so... the cat fits better into UW (losing MD PWs and Scroll) and UR (losing TNN & Scroll) here, right? It's not clear that these exchanges will turn out to be worth it, but they should be tested. Cat buys back all the things, incl. Standstill, buys time, and in itself helps offset Dreadnought's card disadvantage.

As for (non-Standstill) UB Stiflenought, I'm looking at a threat suit of 4 Delver | 4 Dreadnoughts | 2-3 Bobs | 1-3 Bitterblossom/Lazav/JVP to accompany the stupid cat.

One way of looking at it is you're starting every game with a Brazen Borrower-type dude out on an adventure. I really hope that I'm wrong here, but it's a free extra card every fucking game. There's a reason Brazen Boi turned Disperse into a MD Legacy staple: It's free.

I stand by my love for the flying Whale, btw, but whether or not it's this much better or worse than Arcanist, Mandrills, JVP, etc. doesn't really matter as long as other decks get to start with 8 cards in hand.

Glass House

04-09-2020, 09:11 AM

This whole mechanic is incredibly dumb, overpowered and unfortunate.

I don't have anything to add to discussing the deck, just want to say that this is how I feel about Companion too. It sets an awful precedent. But unfortunately, as you say, this is where things are now, so... :rolleyes:

Rood

04-09-2020, 12:32 PM

Companion either needs to be re-looked at or revisited somehow. I can't see them not addressing this mechanic going forward (seems terrible constructed and horridly balanced). Lets all hope they figure it out.

Fox

04-09-2020, 08:14 PM

@Tobitzki companion cat not the best in UW. We can‘t run it from SB since we‘d lose our best cards (PWs/Scroll). Even though I have Karakas, it would eat removal if it was in the maindeck (there is nothing else to clear that out of their hand). As far as white decks go, the cat should be a maindeck DnT staple (Karakas, tutors, Mother, Vial, etc...).

Probably better in UB, but I think you‘re probably playing Petal + Delver/Confidant. If you‘re running it as a companion, you‘re going to have a hard time vs Chalice and will have to rely on Torpor Orb and/or Mask in the main (possibly 1x LDV to find them). The cat would be fine in such a maindeck as a 1-2x. It‘s the same idea as Tasigur, but less life loss of Confidant flips and the lifelink to go up on life. Not a huge amount of things to buy back if your guys are getting exiled, which kinda pushes you to Petal. The deck won‘t have room for Standstill. Petals will push Confidant up to either a 3x or 4x.

Tobitzki

04-09-2020, 10:48 PM

Probably better in UB, but I think you‘re probably playing Petal + Delver/Confidant.

I never really thought Petals were playable in a Dreadnought deck, that happened way before my time (and before Push and Decay). I mostly played UB from 2018 and throughout the W&6 meta, without Bobs. (fwiw, I've also never liked Standstill in UB.) With the Cat I think you're right, tho, Petals become a viable option again (but do not ever maindeck the companion!)

Couple more things: Not worried about Chalice, not adding any 1drops here. And yeam Mask is back on the menu (if I only owned one), as is Lazav.

EDIT: correction: Torpor Orb obviously does work here, too

Fox

04-10-2020, 09:58 AM

Pretty sure Torpor Orb works just fine with the companion cat since it‘s cmc=2.

Can‘t link from twitch with tablet, but Card Kingdom had a stream last night of BUG Dreadnought. Lots of structural flaws in construction though: Daze w/o Wasteland in a deck trying to spam 3-drops, Oko and Standstill without removal, and Delver stranded by himself and struggling to flip. Pilot was able to dodge Delver, 4c Oko, Vial, Goyf, and Hymn/CB; ended up 4-1 vs RW Painter, Aluren (this was a loss, except that oppo ran out of clock), OkoLands (loss), Belcher, SnT. All pretty favourable matchups which failed to pressure early to exploit construction errors, so at 4-1 to 5-0 result is what we‘d expect vs that lineup. Despite the parade of good matchups and lack of punishing the construction, it‘s a good series to watch as a number of different/better lines of play often present. The series also begins by reinforcing one of the most important rules: get basic Island first. This opening game is the highest yield as you get to see how things fall apart when you open with incorrect land sequencing and follow up with an incorrect FoW pitch. The pilot ends up winning that game iirc, but it‘s way more of a struggle than it had to be. The pilot understands the format, but often gets a little lost in sideboarding. Looking at what is in the sideboard and asking yourself what you‘d add/cut in these matches is also worthwhile (get to see 5 different decks rather than the single 4c Oko fair soup deck).

Tobitzki

04-10-2020, 10:36 AM

Pretty sure Torpor Orb works just fine with the companion cat since it‘s cmc=2.

my apologies, of course you're right. I was too deep into Fox brewing mode...

crispymelee

05-05-2020, 07:38 PM

No idea how accurate a predictor of the paper meta online events are, but given recent trends (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/gcgd8d/may_1_legacy_super_qualifier_top_32_in_photo_form/), are we in a position to effectively combat Companions?

If you guys have experience playing online (I'm pretty much exclusively paper), how have you done running the Noughts? Any old or new pieces of tech that we should look to pick up?

Fox

05-05-2020, 08:54 PM

Nothing too much has changed, every Fox deck is trying to combo into auto-loss to what UW Nought already does. Most Lurrus decks just say “I can’t play Oko, Uro, or TNN, and this is my only value spell...so when you kill it I kinda die on the spot.” The Kraken deck is a meme that can’t beat combo-control. Yorion decks were nice enough to spike their decks full of variance so that they could exile multiple value permanents and try to return them to play off a single trigger (if only there were some card that could punish this)...after sorc-speed tapping out of 5 mana; so I’m not taking that one seriously. :laugh:

The Lurrus stuff is the only one really worth taking seriously, but they’re also glacially slow when it comes to casting him (lost land drops on Daze and Wasteland activations), usually needing somewhere around 6 turns. The recent morose fascination with Counterbalance spamming will be annoying and tedious for however long that lasts; but on the bright side they’re down about 5 PWs and 2 Mentors which you no longer have to fight over. They’ve dropped to ~3 not-CB relevant cards: 2xEntreat (exile these with FoN if possible, b/c Sanctuary) and 1x Lurrus (which isn’t a problem if they don’t have a CB to recur). The CB-Lurrus stuff should die off soon enough, and you’ll be left with some of the slowest Delver decks legacy has ever had (Stifle should excel at shredding their hand).

In terms of new cards, Sevinne’s is probably fine as a 1x in UW. If you want to try another card in either UW or UR, a Shark’nado is probably fine. The cycle-turtle has some issues. Speaking just of UR, I doubt Lurrus is going to give you any trouble at all, but Oko/Uro/Coatl is going to be annoying b/c of lifegain. You will want to think about sideboard plans vs GY and artifacts. As it stands you’d be waiting on a card that doesn’t exist yet: :r: instant deal 3 to any target, if it would die exile instead* or even Incendiary Flow were it to exist at instant speed. Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor has obvious problems when it comes to attacking life totals. Instant speed is needed to exile Uro (particularly on first cast), the exile still happens when sac trigger kills him. Getting to 3 dmg is a currently required b/c of Dreadhorde. The inability of red to cleanly interfere with the recursion looping going on right now is a bit rough, so you probably need to get creative.

*I would expect a card like this to have to say deal 3 to creature or deal 2 to player/PW; otherwise it’s just strictly better Bolt.

Rood

05-26-2020, 02:00 PM

Shark Typhoon is actually gross..Being able to cycle under a Standstill and trade with a Delver is pretty nuts. I cant see ur not wanting at least 3-4 copies in a deck like this. Unfortunately...cannot be run unless we cut either Dreadnought or Delver. This is what a non Dreadnought list would look like.

4x Standstill
4x FOW
4x Daze
4x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Delver
4x Shark Typhoon
4x TNN
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Volcanic Island
3x Polluted Delta
4x Island
1x Mountain

What do you guys think?

Fox

05-26-2020, 07:16 PM

Once you start cutting Dreadnoughts you start losing to combo, and loss of Stifle undercuts Daze. If you cut Delvers you collapse the usefulness of Daze and Bolt (which means you’re now on UW). Ramp up Sharks and you’re no longer playing Delver (too many enchants and lands), so again the move is to UW. The loss of reach [12/12] and all the maindeck lifegain [opponent] will cripple your list; also Stifle isn’t a card you want to be dropping while Veil and Yorion are being played.

Once you’re on UW, Teferi up to 3x. No need to spam Sharks since you can find them with E-Tutor (turn 1 tutor Shark, turn 2 untap Standstill), and E-Tutor gives you more keepable hands (cycle it for the 1x Astrolabe). Problems with straight UW-Standstill are:
1) loses to burn spells (Plow Dreadnought fixes)
2) has to play Terminus and Portent (loss of slots vs Verdict)
3) loses to Oko (easier to fight with Scroll of Fate; splashing for 3x REB does not work well)

Dreadstill moves to...
Set pieces (29):
Plow x4
Stifle x4 (needed to play Verdict, better vs Delver than Terminus)
FoW x4
Brainstorm x4
Teferi x3
Karn x2
Verdict x2
FoN x2
Search for Azcanta x1
Astrolabe x1
Scroll of Fate x1
Sevinne’s x1 (replaces Noxious; not as interactive, but it’s fine)

Mana (20):
Strand x4
Vista x3
Snow-Island x3
Snow-Plains x2
Tundra x1
Karakas x1
Wasteland x3
Factory x3

Unset slots (last 11):
Dreadnought 3-4x
E Tutor 1-2x
Sharks 1-2x
JVP 0-1x
Standstill 2-3x
Snare 1-2x (doesn’t hit Oko or SnT)

About the only sideways (slot-neutral) move is cutting Factory altogether for Vista #4 an Island, and something else. I don’t think this is progress though, since it’s a big part of how you control Oko (they can’t [+1] on your things b/c 3/3 + 2/2 Factory = dead Oko). It also comes up quite frequently vs Oko decks that they [+1] on Scroll, respond with face-down 12/12, and 1-shot them for 17 with Elk-Scroll/Factory/Nought.

KobeBryan

05-27-2020, 02:29 PM

Wait...so dreadstill no longer runs dreadnought?

Fox

05-29-2020, 10:40 AM

Wait...so dreadstill no longer runs dreadnought?
UR Landstill, UR cards I own, and UR Moon are still not competitive. They also fell even further behind the curve with the printing of Uro and Oko (too much maindeck lifegain). Picking up lands with Daze while relying on Sharks still has some significant timing problems by itself, while also reinforcing the too slow vs combo that plagues those decks. UR still lacks the reset buttons (wrath and obnoxious white effects), and ramping up the speed with a 12/12 is still the best compensatory mechanism. The banning of Wrenn did not help Spell Snare’s position in the meta either; the main problem for the deck (Oko) is only really casting Strix/Ice-Fang on 2, and the occasional Library; they also have no problem waiting to play around Daze.

Fox

06-16-2020, 06:14 PM

Okay so the new cards for Dreadnought:
-Discontinuity: exiles spells cast on our turn (includes Decay), exiles Nought trigger, 1 fewer card to discard if opponent breaks Standstill on EoT (also they lose their spell); achievement mode nukes opponent’s turn. True worth somewhere around $3. Worth experimenting up to 1-2 slots where Trickbind would have been. Don’t like the ~$7 pricetag, but it’s unlikely you’d ever need more than 2x.
-See the Truth: showing current price around $3, worth a playset at least (says draw 3, and modern overuses Snapcaster heavily). Lots of potential on this card, perhaps good enough to build around.
-Thieve’s Guild Enforcer: turns on Drown in the Loch in UB if you’re trying to build around heavier interaction. Price is correct at $1.50.
-Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose: overpriced at ~$4, worth about $1; but you only need 1x with some Entomb and Sevinne’s/Reanimate/JVP. Diamond Valley was put on Arguel’s Blood Fast, so this is a pretty easy one to figure out. Provides meaningful goldfish use of Plow (gain 12, drain 12; turns Plow into a pseudo-Stifle). Other cards of interest are Grisel, Death’s Shadow, and Orzhov Charm. This card costing only 2B [Sevinne’s sees it] and having that passive is all that matters, ignore the activated ability.
-Fungal Rebirth: nice regrowth effect, instant speed, makes dudes. UG builds still lack removal, but this would be a pretty easy include if they were viable. Pretty stupid with Uro.

For Karn SB:
-Sparkhunter Masticore: currently around $2.50; only need 1x but reasonable price to complete a playset. Also reasonable in a madness shell, discussed below.
-Mazemind Tome: correcly priced at ~75 cents, decent wish target if you think Karn will die on arrival.
-Isochron Scepter + See the Truth: worth consideration.

Almost cards:
-Sanctum of Stone Fangs: worthless money-wise, and poor to build around (legendary). Not an unreasonable SB card vs control (about as close to Klothys as you can get with UB base); reasonable interactions with and against Bitterblossom...or as budget Bitterblossom.
-Silversmote Ghoul: also worthless money-wise, but a pretty effortless value engine with Cling to Dust. No real synergy with Dreadnought at this time, but the groundwork for madness/discard is laid with Collective Brutality, Rootwalla, Asylum Visitor, and Cling/Ghoul.
-Sporeweb Weaver: combo with Desert, but not good enough even though Desert would be great with Standstill.

SB options:
Run Afoul 1 mana Flyabolic Edict.

crispymelee

06-16-2020, 08:42 PM

Thanks Fox for the highlights on upcoming cards in the new sets. Run Afoul in particular got me thinking about the rise of Worldgorger Dragon combo, since that card came up in a group for its development I joined, while my Noughts are off to get signed by Mr. Venters.

If you haven't encountered it online or exclusively play paper, the WGD lists use the interaction between WGD and Animate Dead, to recur draw-effects (Ice-Fang Coatl/Arcum's Astrolabe) and generate "inifinite" mana, finishing with Fae of Wishes -> Torment of Hailfire for the kill. Assuming you're in UW, we're uniquely positioned to fight them on multiple axes between our regular suite of permission, Stifle, StP, and small Tef. The real trick is attacking them at the right time: either exile WGD with it's "exile all other permanents" trigger on the stack, or Stifle the "return all permanents" trigger when WGD is sacrificed. In both scenarios, your opponent's permanents are exiled permanently. You could also exile the WGD from the yard after it gets sacrificed which will break the loop, but will allow their permanents to return.

G2 and 3, it gets interesting as most lists run a SB that lets them transition to a (weaker) traditional BUG midrange list abusing Oko and Uro, sometimes eschewing the combo completely. If you're in UW, you have your traditional GY-hate plan of E.Tutor/RiP/Tormod's/etc.

Anyways, it seems to be putting up enough results and gaining enough steam that I think there will be a decent chance of it showing up as a "rogue" list once paper events are live again. Stay safe everyone!

EDIT: I originally said Strix was one of their draw effects; more common is Ice-Fang Coatl

FistaCuffSmith

06-18-2020, 07:44 PM

Just wanted to jump in and say “hi.” I’m new to the deck and I’m trying to learn as much as I can. I have a U/R version put together on MTGO (thanks Fox and Crispy for your help today).

Mr. Safety

06-19-2020, 07:13 AM

-Isochron Scepter + See the Truth: worth consideration.

FYI, this doesn't work, instants only for Scepter imprints.

In order for See the Truth to be viable as a draw engine it needs to have more value than the Standstill sub-game. The deck-building restrictions are also fairly significant. At a minimum you need 3-4x Snapcaster Mage and enough ways to reliably hit 4 lands on turn 4. It won't necessarily be played on-curve, but you will need to hit 3-4 lands by turn 4 to do the first half and still have enough mana to do something else (necessary due to it's poor effect on the front side.) The other option is Mission Briefing, which has seen some fringe play. The upside of Briefing is that you can play alternative costs from the graveyard (Force of Will/Negation and Daze.) The UU cost, in a deck with 7-8 colorless lands, will be tricky outside of mono-blue. Wasteland is seeing less play due to Astrolabe, but Snapcaster Mage does it easier and provides a body, just no alternative costs.

Fox

06-19-2020, 09:03 AM

Nice catch on the Isochron. There are probably a few artifacts that do the trick which you just wish for with Karn. Most that I can think of are around 4-5 mana to do the thing: Uba Mask, Bosium Strip.

Another reliable mechanic (i.e. not cascade) would be giving it rebound with the UW Narset from a few sets back or Outpost Siege-type cards (Vance's Blasting Cannons, Chandra ToD). Snapcaster is the easiest way though, and having to play it isn't really a downside.

Tobitzki

06-19-2020, 10:34 AM

@FistaCuffSmith Welcome to the Dreadtribe & welcome to Legacy. I highly recommend a deep dive into this thread; it's such a rich well of knowledge.
@Fox: Didn't you do a kind of round-up of the first few hundred pages a couple of years back? That'd be pretty useful to somehow bookmark on the primer page.

on See the Truth: If we found a way to loot it in the bin, I like JVP over SCM or Mission Briefing here, because of the hefty mana cost Mr. Safety mentions. I probably won't go as far as suggesting Faithless Looting per se, but in a more control-orienteed shell, cards to consider would be Dack, The Royal Scions and the new Teferi (who btw broke my heart for not enabling Dreadnought with his phasing ability); maybe Tragic Lesson too.

Meanwhile, I've dusted off good old UB Stiflenought to try out the new Whale:

14
4 Delver
3 Ethereal Forager | Dreadnought
2 Bob | Brazen Bouncer

28
4 BS | Ponder | Daze | Force | Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Push
1 Drown | Pierce | Misdirection

18
4 WL | Delta | Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

SB:
3 TNN
1 Back to Basics
1 Winter Orb
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snare
1 Plague Engineer
1 Mind Harness
1 EE
1 Null Rod
1 Cage
1 Surgical
1 Cling

Option of turning into a more conventional Delver deck post-board with TNNs blanking boarded-in spot removal. There's an argument for shaving the 3rd Whale for a Preordain, not sure.

I actually had another version with the full playset of 12/12s, alongside Reality Shift, which seems pretty neat against Uro rn.

There's some flexibility in the sideboard (especially # of W Orb and B2B), as I'm not sure about the current/near-future paper meta. It's very possible that we'll start running up the Plague Engineer count to combat the incoming hordes of Goblin Snoops and uncounterable Elves soon enough.

Fox

06-19-2020, 10:58 AM

Given that we generally don’t play Ponder, we should be casting See the Truth. If the card is only good with some backdoor flashback/Yawg Will wording from yard, it wouldn’t be considered. Cast it and assemble the plan to draw 3 off the cantrip side.

I’ll dig up the post sometime and see if Rood is around to post it to pg.1

FistaCuffSmith

06-19-2020, 01:18 PM

Got my first victory today against some sort of 4-color control list. Had like Hymm, snapcaster and K-Command. Pretty stoked.

KobeBryan

06-19-2020, 01:42 PM

We need a new primer.

There's so many new cards that need to be settled on. Sharknado, scroll, whale.

FistaCuffSmith

06-19-2020, 02:34 PM

For reference here is my list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Scroll of Fate
2 Shark Typhoon
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Standstill
1 Steam Vents
4 Stifle
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Wasteland

1 Abrade
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shenanigans
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction

FistaCuffSmith

06-19-2020, 04:25 PM

We need a new primer.

There's so many new cards that need to be settled on. Sharknado, scroll, whale.

I would love to have an idea how to sideboard from you all that have played this more and know the format better than I.

Fox

06-21-2020, 02:26 AM

@Tobitzki the best answer to Uro in UB is Cling to Dust; you probably need to be thinking of 2x in the main or 1x with a small 1-2x Entomb package (Darkblast + something else). Cut at least 3x Strand for Vista if you have them. Your list has almost no game against Chalice (Ponder stole slots), and should be looking at Scroll and/or Karn. If nothing changes maindeck, 2-3 SB slots need to be Teferi’s Realm or have proliferate. I’d also suggest cards that kill Oko in SB before Snare/Fluster/FoN (cut Pierce, play FoN main).

@KobeBryan we’ve gotten playables with pretty much every set for a few years now. A few copies of Sharknado and Scroll of Fate doesn’t really change how UR Dreadstill is built. The main thing is that we’re at a point where Delver is moving towards support from only 20-22 cards that can flip it. It’s only going to take a few more cards to say Delvers (and Daze, since picking up Islands is not great with Shark’nado) are out, and we’re doing something entirely new with UR. One of the things we’d need is a reliable wrath and an early damage source to augment the Bolt to the face backup mode (since power creep diminishes its viability as a kill spell as time goes on). UR is still in the count-to-20 holding pattern, waiting for enough help to morph into the kind of stuff my UW list does. On the flip side, my UW list is waiting for printing a playable that turns Plow own Dreadnought into quad-Bolt (Vito was close), to play a game more similar to current UR.

The new printings don’t really matter all that much outside of Teferi, which made UW’s unified gameplan distinctly different from UR. Scroll is just a hilariously upgraded enabler, and 1-2x Sharks in the mix lets you cast Standstills at resolved enemy Delvers. You still need to hide ~3x wincons in the manabase, and no land-based threat has allowed us to look at dropping to 2x (moving away from Factory). UB has Creeping Tarpit to go to 2x, but they should be playing no-Dreadnought Standstill (bigger priority for them is to get white for Teferi and Sevinne’s). Thing in the Ice = Cryptic Serpent = Pteramander = Vantress = Whale; same thing, creatures that need too much work, die to REB, and turn into Elk before you get anything out of them. Of all of them TITI still has the most synergy with Scroll. UB isn’t really competitive right now, but they keep printing must-plays (Scroll, FoN) at 3cmc, making Confidant more suspect. This is the hole they’re trying to plug with Whale, and it doesn’t look promising (not castable on turn 2). Mono-U is not worth playing since Vista came out, but they also dabble in Whales.

I’ll try and get in contact with @Rood to update some of the matchups, but both lists are pretty current. The issue is that, especially for UR, there is no one right way to attack the meta (very few best cards for the job in UR). I think the best we can do is put up loose rules for what can be boarded out, and the concept of cards being sided in [ex. yard hate, pseudo-wrath, etc].
—
I have a small Standstill Discord set up, which is probably the best way to get targeted advice on boarding [since we can see the specific list and SB choices]. PM me Discord name and I can send an invite.