[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Fox]

Without enough 1-drop threats, you can’t really afford to play Daze. The way [non-12/12] Delver/Daze/Wasteland decks work is 8/4/2 structure (8x 1-drop, 4x 2-drop, 2x payoff dudes); if you don’t have enough 1-drops to reliably open games with a threat you’re going to start dying b/c you drew Daze in a game that will go long b/c of the lack of early clock. After DRS was banned, pretty much every Delver pilot forgot the basics of deck construction (particularly Grixis) and continued to play Daze while tanking 1-drop threats to 4x Delver only. On top of this, their mana curves have drifted up to the 2-3cmc cost point (Dreadhorde/Goyf, Oko/Klothys) and now they’re also ramping up SB Winter Orb use which is increasingly self-crippling.

The moment you concentrate on 2-drop threats (we’ll call Brazen a 2-drop), you’re saying [insert 2-drop] has a great matchup vs Ice-Fang/Strix and their turn 3+ followups of SCM/Uro/PWs (this is unlikely to be the case). You’re also shunting mana away from casting Standstill on that turn 2, when we’re not talking about Shadow. The most important thing about Delver is that it’s a turn 1 threat that, regardless of flipping quickly or not, allows us to profitably alt-cast Daze or add pressure to a followup Standstill. When Delver doesn’t flip, any Fetches will add card selection through pseudo-scrying, which is a more powerful effect than flooding out on Lavamancers or any other U or R 1-drop. As a block though, I agree that Delver and Daze, as a package, are on the chopping block in the Dreadstill’s future.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, that all makes sense. In UB Shadow there are other 1-drop options (Gurmag, Reanimate>Street Wraith) that can pressure opponents. Gurmags don't land on turn 1, but playing a turn 1 Thoughtseize is perfectly fine for that deck.

The other alternative is to just jam a split of Force of Negation and Spell Snare/Spell Pierce. It isn't 'free' like Daze, but without the t1 Delver to split decision making, leaving up a Snare/Pierce is fine. I think the plan of early permission and bouncing their threat with Borrower into a Standstill seems very, very good. This is what I meant by leaning more into Standstill/mid-game rather than early pressure. The idea isn't to replace Delver with Borrower as a less efficient threat, but rather a way to leverage Standstill better.

EDIT: I'm really surprised to see a lack of Spell Snare in your list. It's always been a very good inclusion in Dreadstill.

[Fox]

There isn’t really room for those as long as we’re testing Shark’nado. The only other ways to make space would be -1 Daze and/or -1 Scroll. As far as Scroll goes, I’d prefer to replace that with Karn. This would warp the SB strategy however, including the re-introduction of the cut Scroll to the SB.

Spell Snare lost playability when Wrenn and Breach got banned. It doesn’t do enough vs Veil, Oko, or SnT. If you’re freeing up 2 slots, FoN’s exile clause is more likely to result in a win. When Oko is banned Hymn/Snapcaster and CB/Snapcaster decks will reoccupy the ~20-30% meta share this nonsense generally occupies, barring the printing of velocity-positive cards that entirely invalidate their playability (Breach, Wrenn, Oko). If this were to happen, I might value heavier dedication to Snare.

[Tobitzki]

Agree that Delver/Daze seem to be on the edge of playability with Standstill, as Sharknado bring so much more flexibility and synergy for that plan.

As for my tempo list:

latest tweaks:
cut the 3rd Whale for blue fetch #9 to up the land count to 19 (14 blue sources).
cut SB Flusterstorm for Pierce #2
(close call, but we don't need the extra help vs. spellbased combo and Pierce hopefully works well enough vs. red blasts and Veils.)
cut SB Null Rod for Winter Orb #2



... Cling to Dust ... Entomb ... Vista ... Chalice ... Scroll and/or Karn... Teferi’s Realm ... Snare/Fluster/FoN

Always appreciate your feedback @Fox, but you're off the mark a couple times here I think. Try to approach my deck from the Ponder/Tempo mindset.

The maindeck Dreadnought plan is built to a) offset card DA (4-5 slots Bobs & Whales), b) protect our 7 fragile must-kills (Misdirection), and c) maximize flexibility (2 Drown, 2 Brazen). The list tucks a number of perfectly maindeckable cards in the SB: FoN, Cling, Snare, Pierce#2, Push#2, and E.E.. Depending on local meta, any of them could move to the MD at some point.

FoN is the closest one and implies a pretty intricate pro/con assessment. It's one of our best Whale buybacks, but it can't protect a Stiflenought and brings more card DA. I'd much rather have the Brazen Bois for Chalice, followed next turn either by discard or a 12/12 (and many Chalice decks can't beat that G1 since Abrade/Cratermaker fell out of favor and Karn-->Bridge is slow and gives us time to interact.) Approaching this from a tempo player's perspective, preboard we're not that much softer to Chalice than UR Delver (uncastable Dreadnought only slightly worse than shut-off Arcanist): The 75 has 3 outs to a resolved Chalice, along the 5 Forces plus Snare, Pierce, and Thoughtseizes (otD). I love Teferi's Realm as much as anyone, but sadly as long as the 2019 PWs are a thing in Legacy I just can't spare a slot for it. fwiw I'd rather add a 2nd E.E. as it doubles as creature removal in a removal-light deck.

Similarly, I'm a sucker for a mini Entomb package (been doing that in Jund Phoenix), but there just isn't enough synergy with the rest of the plan here to make it viable. Again: Petty Theft is an ok-enough answer to Uro if I'm also applying pressure, and I'm not aiming to warp into some kind of anti-Snow machine preboard.

Karn is too slot- and mana-intensive, and just not my style.

postboard vs. Snow I can run:
4 Delver
2 Bob
2 Whale
1 P Engineer
3 TNN (3rd one might become a Bitterblossom)
2 Winter Orb

20 Tempo, Stifle (-1or2 Daze/Stifle OTD)
3 TS
2 Drown
1 Push / E.E.?
1 FoN
2 Pierce
1 Snare
1 Mind Harness --> gonna be the new Eliminate
1 Cling
1 Surgical

1-2 WL
9 Fetches
3 Island
2 USea

on Vista: Swamp is the worst card in the deck and I'll try to cut it whenever possible vs. control and combo. So no Vistas.

This plan leans on Orbs and requires tight play, but between Stifle, Daze, Pierce, Drown, and TS I like our chances to trip them on mana & clunky spells enough to get under. Reference point is, again, UR Delver's SB plan, with Bob/Whale mimicking Arcanist's chance of snowballing.

Considerations/close cuts: 1 Scroll/JVP/Bob#3/Whale#3; 1 Tale's End/Reality Shift; Hydroblast (for open metas); MD E.E./2nd SB E.E.; SB/MD allocation of the counter package of 2 Pierce/1Snare/1FoN/1Misdirection.

Final consideration is still always splashing 1-2 Volcs for 3 red blasts and 2 Abrades.

[Rood]

For reference here is my list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Scroll of Fate
2 Shark Typhoon
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Standstill
1 Steam Vents
4 Stifle
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Wasteland

1 Abrade
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shenanigans
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction

Looks pretty good. I think 3-4 Shark Typhoon is probably correct. We just have so many ways to go over the top or sit under a Standstill now. I like the list. Not really sure how we supported the Delver plan with only 20 instants and sorceries now. Probably will have to shave the Dreadnought package potentially or draw the line in the sand and cut the Delvers. I personally would rather cut DN before I cut Delver but that's just me.

4 Delver 4 Shark 4 True Name 4 Standstill leaves room for 24 Instants/Sorceries and since we dont have Dreadnought anymore we get to run the mighty Ponder which I know many of you have already tried fitting in this deck (OVER Stifles.) If you cut Delver I'm not sure where this deck really goes. But either way...this deck will undergo a big transformation with Shark I can forsee. The Wasteland count would have to be 4 with this change as well.

[KobeBryan]

Looks pretty good. I think 3-4 Shark Typhoon is probably correct. We just have so many ways to go over the top or sit under a Standstill now. I like the list. Not really sure how we supported the Delver plan with only 20 instants and sorceries now. Probably will have to shave the Dreadnought package potentially or draw the line in the sand and cut the Delvers. I personally would rather cut DN before I cut Delver but that's just me.

4 Delver 4 Shark 4 True Name 4 Standstill leaves room for 24 Instants/Sorceries and since we dont have Dreadnought anymore we get to run the mighty Ponder which I know many of you have already tried fitting in this deck (OVER Stifles.) If you cut Delver I'm not sure where this deck really goes. But either way...this deck will undergo a big transformation with Shark I can forsee. The Wasteland count would have to be 4 with this change as well.

Dreadstill without dreadnought. I like it

[Fox]

Semiotician and me on the call ran back same UR list to another 4-1. Match 1 vs Astrid’s sorc speed copying the Edict Enchantment & Omen of the Sea (2-0). Match 2 UR Delver (2-0). Match 3 ANT (2-0). Match 4 Loam (2-1). Match 5 UBR Welder tribal with Thopter Sword (1-2).

Boarding was something like:
-Astrid: I think it was something like 3 REB in, 2 Chandra ToD in. -2 Daze, -1 Standstill, -2 Bolt.
-UR Delver: +2 Abrade, +2 REB. -2 Daze, -2 Standstill.
-ANT: +2 Surgical, +2 Ashiok, +1 Izzet Staticaster. -3 Bolt, -2 Daze. Might have brought in some REB effects and EE, can’t remember.
-Loam: +2 Surgical, +2 Ashiok, +2 Chandra ToD, +1 uncounterable Chandra, +2 Abrade. -4 Daze, -2 Standstill, -1 Delver, -2 Bolt.
-Welder tribal: +2 Abrade, +2 Ashiok, +2 Surgical, +2 Chandra ToD, +1 Staticaster. -4 Daze, -1 Shark’Nado, -2 TNN, -1 Stifle, -1 Standstill.

Astrid stuff lacked enough intent to win a game of legacy (too much durdle) and didn’t pack necessary legacy effects (unable to interact with EoT dudes, and it kinda needs TNN to be widely played to farm wins from). UR Delver fell to Standstill allowing us to play the same strat, except bigger. ANT got Wasted out in G1 and dismantled by Ashiok in G2. Loam got burned out by Lavamancer/TNN/Dreadnought, and Ashiok severely crippled them. In the last game of this match Oko and Uro were stamped out by uncounterable Chandra [+2] emblems, cast through a Thalia. Welder Tribal games were interesting, interactive, and close; sadly from 1 card in hand they topdecked 2nd Foundry in a 1 turn window and got the win in game 3. Lots of ways to SB vs them, but I was pretty happy with not bringing in REB effects (only blue cards were Brainstorm, Foundry, and maybe Ponder). I don’t think their list had any 1BR Daretti, which felt like a card they should have in deck (this was Leaving a Legacy crew piloting iirc, maybe their podcast has some discussion of their sweet decklist!).

Really fun games, well-played by all opponents, and a more diverse field than the previous 4-1. You can watch the game vs Loam on Anzidmtg’s VoD.

[serendib]

Looks pretty good. I think 3-4 Shark Typhoon is probably correct. We just have so many ways to go over the top or sit under a Standstill now. I like the list. Not really sure how we supported the Delver plan with only 20 instants and sorceries now. Probably will have to shave the Dreadnought package potentially or draw the line in the sand and cut the Delvers. I personally would rather cut DN before I cut Delver but that's just me.

4 Delver 4 Shark 4 True Name 4 Standstill leaves room for 24 Instants/Sorceries and since we dont have Dreadnought anymore we get to run the mighty Ponder which I know many of you have already tried fitting in this deck (OVER Stifles.) If you cut Delver I'm not sure where this deck really goes. But either way...this deck will undergo a big transformation with Shark I can forsee. The Wasteland count would have to be 4 with this change as well.

I like the idea. Stifles and Standstills are good together only with Phyrexian Dreadnought to my view.


3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

2 Brazen Borrower
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Shark Typhoon

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Vapor Snag
1 Pyroblast

4 Standstill


I like Brazen Borrower a lot, especially with Standstill.
When you draw 3 with in the opponent's turn, Petty Thefting their permanent and them playing another Standstill in your turn is very good.
And I like having 6 cc2 strong drops (4 Standstill 2 Arcanist) even I know you cannot play Arcanists' spells under Standstill.
Arcanist is such a strong card and can give you card advantage even in the matchs you side out Standstills on g2/g3 (against Dark Depth for example).

What do you think Rood ?

[Fox]

@serendib the manabase has some issues that will cause statistically significant losses by itself. You’re heavy on Sharks (need 4 mana to kill a Delver), so push total up to 21:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
3x Wasteland
3x Factory
2x Volc
4x Island
1x Mountain
You can’t afford to expose Wasteland’able red lands early (this will ruin your transition to mid-late game).

You have 22 cards that can flip a Delver, and not enough reliable Dreadhorde fodder. You’re flooded on creatures (a card type that hurts Delver and Dreadhorde) that don’t really solve a problem as simple as one enemy Goyf, outside of stalling with TNN. Dreadhorde is pretty terrible under a Standstill, while Snare would help with the dying to Goyf problem...so Dreadhorde gets axed. Your list went overboard with Brazen Borrower x2 maindeck, so you really don’t need Vapor Snag. Pyroblast main is more edgy than reliable, but it’s probably fine.

If you’ve addressed the Goyf problem, you now need a plan for the Uro/Oko lifegain engines - they gain 3 life per turn, which matches your max damage output per card per turn. Every time they gain 3 life you effectively lose a card or lose an attack. Deck manipulation with Ponder can’t assemble a plan to beat those levels of lifegain which also leave behind overpowered, hard to deal with permanents (remember, Oko is the most broadly played wincon in the format). The UR color set does not have reliable* tools hard-counter Uro/Oko, so you have to attack on a completely different angle, while Ponder can only find more attacks from the same angles (the same angles being the ones that lose to Oko/Uro).

*remember Veil counters REB on the stack so you have to let it resolve before Blasting, and then deal with an Elk or another Uro trigger.

There’s no suggestion for cards that just autowin vs Uro/Oko in UR because such cards don’t exist; the best help is don’t lose to your own manabase and have a plan vs Goyf.

[serendib]

@serendib the manabase has some issues that will cause statistically significant losses by itself. You’re heavy on Sharks (need 4 mana to kill a Delver), so push total up to 21:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
3x Wasteland
3x Factory
2x Volc
4x Island
1x Mountain
You can’t afford to expose Wasteland’able red lands early (this will ruin your transition to mid-late game).

Against non Wasteland Decks , basics mountain would always to the side. Vista don't get Volcanic. So no Vistas.
But more important, you consistently want to be able to play turn 1 bolt turn 2 standstill if needed.
With your manabase, there is not that consistency and you lose important timing options.
You don't want to have [ Vista + Colorless Land + Bolt + Standstill ] and being forced to chose between Island and Mountain.

One more note on manabase. With 4 Daze I would never go more than 20 lands.
You don't want to play daze and find yourself with 3/4 lands in hand. It would be a virtual card disadvantage.

Vapor Snag is just another way you can set a turn 2 Standstill, which is THE key card of the deck
(the Shark thing by its own is no more than a funny draft card in 2020, same as Scroll, Karn used as a cc4 sorcery tutor etc.).

On Deadhorne you might be wright. It could possibily go to the side. -But you anyway need to find a smooth way to have card advantage regardless Standstill which is not good against some decks. Anyway, If you get Arcanist online, you are happy (14 cc1 spells is ok).
If you stick Standstill in a nice board position, you are happy. It's a win-win option I would not be afraid of.

Sure in the side 2 Submerge would enter.
Against a resolved Oko, attacking it with Nemesis and Bolt it is the most obvious way to get rid of it. Otherwise Blast it or bounce it.
Yes they get 3 lifes anyway. The key against those decks is not to have the perfect solution and think about "if... if..." but resolving Standstill and play aggressively.

[Fox]

I’ve played years on Standstill and Dreadstill, and I can safely tell you that the most reliable way to lose a game is having a dual land in your opening hand or aggressively Fetching a dual. When they printed Vista, win % jumped significantly. You’re also playing 3x Shark’nado, so you need to hit your land drops b/c your 4th turn [assuming you’ve cast no Daze yet] will be the first time you can challenge an opponent’s Delver with a 2/2 Shark. This Daze vs Shark tension is not insignificant, and getting hit by opponent Wasteland [even 1x] can easily put your deck into a death spiral. One of the most important things to recognize about the combination of Vista and Shark’nado is that it’s even harder to punish you for grabbing basic Island early (even with red cards in hand), because now you can spam Standstills into pretty much any 1-drop creature (and decks that play 1-drop creatures reliably play Wasteland). When that Standstill is cracked, you’ve got a pretty good chance of finding your red mana, and the red card in your hand [should you have 8+ cards in the end step] can be cast to avoid discarding.

Now the issue with UR cards I own (UR Standstill, UR Moon, etc) is that, even with Bolt, there is very little to fear or play around in the 10-15 life range. Your deck’s speed is set at 3 dmg per card/per attack. This lack of forcing opponents to react gives them time to deploy cards/effects which you will need to react to, like: Uro or Oko, before that Lurrus, before that Breach, before that Wrenn in RUG Delver, before that Hymn/Snapcaster or Counterbalance, before that SDT/CB or Shardless/Hymn or Probe/Sea/Therapy from Grixis Delver [DTT/TC show up in this era for a bit], and before all of that just the card Goyf (which still has to be respected and built against today).

^This is an unbroken chain of the most insufferable exploits that warp the format - and if you understand legacy as this series of exploits, you understand deck construction priorities in legacy. These fundamental problems in legacy are exploited in two flavors: Delver/Daze or “control.” The reason for Daze in Dreadstill is to say “I don’t care what card Delver/Daze is exploiting, I’m going to impede their ability to resolve them through an all-out attack on their mana backed up by my own Daze and basic land asymmetry.” Now that we’re free from Delver we can turn all of our attention to attacking the “control” exploits. Spell Snare is traditionally the card for the job, but right now it’s the three drops you have to care about. It’s not just the cmc, the recursiveness, nor the general overpowered’ness - they gain 3 life per turn per card (Uro/Oko) and they’re all hiding behind cards like Strix/Ice-Fang/Snapcaster. This problem is not solvable by UR Standstill without access to Dreadnought tech, and even then it’s still a creature-based angle of attack (this is the worst way to attack the cards they’re exploiting now, especially TNN without the reach of a 12/12 or fractal 2/2s off a Scroll of Fate).

Now you can say Standstill will be good enough all you want, but even if you draw 3 cards, you’re in the wrong colors to threaten something truly horrific like wraths and Teferi [3cmc] giving you the free-est Factory beatdown legacy has ever seen, all in a color that can Plow Goyf all day long. In terms of your argument about 21 lands and Daze not being okay, you have to recognize that you’re relying on an entire playset of Delvers that barely have enough cards to flip them in a timely manner...and you still have to build up Wasteland-proof mana (through your own alt-cast Dazes) to get that Shark plan online. It’s going to be very difficult to accomplish all these goals with 4x Volcs, and without that basic Mountain you’re going to find yourself in a world of hurt vs Delver/Daze decks when you’re siding in REBs without promise of static access to red mana (with all 8 Fetches pointed at it).

[Fox]

3-2 in leagues with same list and setup (Semiotician piloting and myself on call). Hootie and the ProFish [Stifle RUG Delver] 2-0, on the draw both games. 5c Okopile 2-1. Eldrazi 0-2. JundGaak 0-2. TES 2-1. Eldrazi and Gaak aren’t especially difficult matchups but just had some back luck with ~4 Brainstorm/Fetches and topdecks with multiple reasonable keeps in a row. Probably should have been a 4-1, but what can you do. :tongue:

RUG Delver pilot tried to play the hold up Stifle game in a disadvantageous mana denial mirror; their mana curve to is too high to not play into our Dazes, and their soft permission betrayed them. Crushed their Goyfs and Hooties with a mix of Bolt + Lavamancer, TNN fog, and Dreadnought abyss.
-SB was something like -2 Daze, -2 Standstill, -2 Bolt. +1 EE, +2 Abrade, +3 REB.

5c Oko game 1 they tapped out and jammed their Oko, probably felt all proud of themselves, and took ~15 to the dome resulting in a life total of less than 1. Game 2 we couldn’t find the Ashioks, but the game might have been winnable despite that with different FoW pitch choice in opening turns. Game 3 they got ground out by Standstills and Scroll through Oko and Uro in play for multiple turns, even though we again did not find any of our Ashioks or Chandra. This is the kind of game you’ll never win on UR Standstill (or normal Delver for that matter) without Dreadnought tech; the opponent was consistently forced by pressure into a corner where they couldn’t cast Veil, and were browbeaten into interacting fairly with FoW. It was the repetitive obliterating of their own GY (eating Snapcaster targets) to represent panic Uro many times and being unable to abuse Veil (b/c of the escape mana cost) that broke their back.
-SB was -4 Daze, -2 Delver, -2 Bolt, -1 Nought. +2 Chandra ToD, +1 uncounterable Chandra, +2 Ashiok, +3 REB, +1 Surgical.

-Eldrazi SB was something like +2 Abrade, +1 EE, +2 Chandra ToD. -2 Bolt, -2 Daze, -1 Standstill.
-Jund Gaak was same as before, -2 Standstill, -2 Daze, -1 FoW. +2 Ashiok, +2 Surgical, +1 Staticaster.


TES pilot couldn’t stop themselves from yolo’ing into Stifle once Veil resolved, but I don’t think their deck had enough discard to do otherwise. In game 3 they pretty much killed themselves with desperation AdNaus behind a Defense Grid on their turn 4 (flipped over Echo for 6 to the dome). To be fair, if we untapped they were turbodead to Ashiok in our hand.
-SB was -2 TNN, -1 Lavamancer, -3 Bolt, -1 Scroll. +2 Abrade, +2 Ashiok, +1 Staticaster, +1 EE, +1 Brazen. Might have cut a Shark’nado for a Surgical.

[DarkConfidant]

New to Dreadstill, but wanted to ask about the viability of Misdirection in the maindeck. Given that it can be effective both as a free pitch counter but also as a good means to protect Dreadnought from removal (sans Oko), is it worth consideration for one or two slots in the maindeck?

[Fox]

Misdirection doesn’t accomplish as much as FoN usually can. You can run 3x FoW and 4th as a Misdirection though. You’d probably need to see a lot of Veil or AggroLoam (to kill their Chalice with Decay) in a local meta for this to be optimal. Misd isn’t the best vs Oko or Vial, and it’s about neutral vs discard.

[Rood]

New to Dreadstill, but wanted to ask about the viability of Misdirection in the maindeck. Given that it can be effective both as a free pitch counter but also as a good means to protect Dreadnought from removal (sans Oko), is it worth consideration for one or two slots in the maindeck?

Mis-D is fine...if you are worried about Abrupt decay decks play with Divert. I've run it before and it hoses the BUG style strats.

[Fox]

As paper magic comes back, don't forget to wear your mask at your LGS. I suggest the N93 and N94 models.
https://i.imgur.com/N5wZhn2.jpg?1

[Fallen_Empire]

As paper magic comes back, don't forget to wear your mask at your LGS. I suggest the N93 and N94 models.
https://i.imgur.com/N5wZhn2.jpg?1

My guy ;)

[Fox]

200 player legacy showcase or w/e it's called, Semi and myself on the call. Went with UW Dreadstill (the best UW deck with Standstill). 7-1 in the swiss, starting out 7-0 and 14-0 in games.

R1 vs Elves: this is basically a mirrormatch of actual Dreadnought vs turn my team into Dreadnoughts for 1x turn. Game 1 they get opening Fetch hit by Stifle, thus locking them into a forced line that loses to Stifle on Rec Sage. G2 they lose to Torpor Orb with some countermagic.

R2 vs RUG Delver: pretty easy win in either game, even waiting for ~10 draws to hit a white source in g2 (once we did, they died on the spot). They ended up conceding to Standstill #3 (Sevinne's) in g2. Apparently people think Dreadhorde flashing back 4 cantrips [in a game where you're on the play with Delver] counts for anything in this format - I dunno, seems suspect.

R3 vs Big EldraziPost: "good matchup vs Tundra." This is a bye round for Dreadstill.

R4 vs MonoRed Painter: G1 Scoop to Karn. Game 2 lock themselves out of REB [over like 5 turns] with their own Moon and Thorn, died to a Stifle while Mastery of the Unseen shredded them. There is an MTGO bug where Painter can't paint manifests, but this would not have kept opponent alive; still kind of a big coding problem, I hope they got re-imbursed. Their deck was sweet, but Moon and Thorn don't belong in a post-board submission.

R5 vs RUG Delver: opponent tried to cheese clock win with Oko on board but getting deterministically locked-out by Karn + Teferi over ~10 turns; they lost g1 with nothing on board. G2 I don't think they offered any resistance; pretty sure they mulled. A truly just end for a clock exploiting Oko abuser.

R6 vs DDFT: Stifle/Wasteland'd out of g1, and g2 resolved DDay without enough to go off while staring down a 12/12 (there wasn't a better line due to lack of mana). Well played by opponent, but their hands didn't have the cards necessary vs Dreadstill I think. Opponent just happened to be on one of the four worst decks to run afoul of Dreadnought (High Tide, DDFT, Tezzerator, MUD being the four).

R7 vs 4c not-red SnowOko: reduced to white mana only in g1, the 2-for-1 deck got handled by self 2-for-1 Dreadnought. G2 they conceded to something like Teferi, Karn, and Shark'nado [the permanent] on board.

R8 vs EurekaTell (1-2): pretty favorable matchup (E Tutor main and Humility comes in, plus other goodies), particularly postboard, but opponent was able to produce double Emrakul triggers (or double protection for the trigger). Big props to opponent for choosing to hardcast FoW using Boseju, with Omni onboard, in g3. While it did not matter vs our hand, it was absolutely the best line. This opponent deserved the 8-0. As much as people hate on Show and Tell, these were the most thought-provoking games of the day.

Top8 vs RUG Delver (1-2): two missed micro-decisions (one priority hold, the other a mistap) in g3 cost the match. I think it was a pretty easy top4 [assuming they don't have exactly Bolt in their deck g3, and draw it]; alas a long day and a little discord lag. Big thanks to @TheSemiotician for jamming my deck; glad to help him take down 50 chests and 3 free leagues of play points! :cool:
---

The next week or so of podcasts ought to be fun. The main lesson is that UW Dreadstill is the best UW Standstill shell at this time (as it has been since Scroll of Fate was printed), and don't play JTMS in Standstill (card is $90 loses-to-Oko trashers). Here's the list:

4x Vista
4x Strand
1x Karakas
1x Tundra
3x Snow-Island
2x Snow-Plains
3x Wasteland
3x Factory

3x Dreadnought
1x JVP

4x FoW
4x Plow
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
3x Teferi (3cmc)
2x Karn
2x Standstill
2x Shark'nado
2x FoN* (double-posted Standstill originally)
2x Verdict
1x Azcanta
1x E-Tutor
1x Sevinne's
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Astrolabe
1x Spell Snare

SB all 1-of:
Ashiok
Mastery of the Unseen
RiP
Porphyry Nodes
Humility
Containment Priest
Torpor Orb
Scroll of Fate
Cursed Scroll
Tormod's
Crucible
Powder Keg
Ethersworn
Liquimetal Coating
Sparkhunter Masticore - This Bud's for you Oko.

As always: ban Oko, ban Counterbalance, ban Hymn. Veil doesn't matter, Astrolabe doesn't matter. There's a difference between stupid mistakes and format-ruining.

[Fox]

I imagine they will use the wrong name for the deck, so here are the approved names:
-Dread Monastery of the Unseen [defunct]
-Manifest Destiny
-12:12 (pronounced Twelve Minutes past Midnight)
-Dreadstill and/or Enter the Fist

The real name however is Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster [as long as it has Crucible]. The alcoholic equivalent of a mugging – expensive and bad for the head.
Take the juice from one bottle of that Ol' Janx Spirit.
Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V
Allow three cubes of Arcturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzene is lost).
Allow four litres of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it (in memory of all those happy Hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia).
Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odours of the dark Qualactin Zones.
Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian suns deep into the heart of the drink.
Sprinkle Zamphuor.
Add an olive.
Drink...but very carefully.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-showcase-challenge-2020-07-13

[DarkConfidant]

200 player legacy showcase or w/e it's called, Semi and myself on the call. Went with UW Dreadstill (the best UW deck with Standstill). 7-1 in the swiss, starting out 7-0 and 14-0 in games.

Congrats on the finish - that's quite an accomplishment. Also, thanks for the write-up.


The next week or so of podcasts ought to be fun. The main lesson is that UW Dreadstill is the best UW Standstill shell at this time (as it has been since Scroll of Fate was printed), and don't play JTMS in Standstill (card is $90 loses-to-Oko trashers).

On the white splash, just curious what is it about the white splash that makes it preferable? I'm putting together Dreadstill in paper and was planning to build it as Ur, but maybe Uw or Uwr might be better. I was leaning toward red because of REB/Pyroblast and Bolt.

Also, would you make any changes to the list moving forward?

[Fox]

The combo in UR Dreadstill is counting to 20, whereas UW is more of a prison. UR sets out to out-Delver the Delver decks, while UW deletes Delver from the server with Plows into Verdict. Teferi passive is the single biggest driver of what you’re doing with Dreadnought. If you’re in UR, the PW you count to 20 with is Chandra, ToD and alongside things like TNN at the top end. Red cards are efficient, white cards skew towards absolute. No reason at this time to update the UW Dreadstill list, it has already adapted to the most recent set printings and no format-changing bans [Oko] have taken place. At most I’d change one SB slot, but that would have to outweigh testing Sparkhunter.

The nice thing about stable decks with all old-bordered history (Dreadstill, Standstill, Goblins, and to a lesser degree Elves) is that we have a much higher bar for what qualifies as a change to the format. There is generally little need to go out of our way to react to the specifics of other strategies. Oko hits Standstill and Goblins harder, but even something as pushed as Dreadhorde Arcanist really only affects Goblins detrimentally (possibly Elves too???). As far as Dreadstill goes, the existence of Oko/Wrenn/Veil helped us indirectly, and Dreadhorde/Lurrus/Breach use directly increase our win%.

I wouldn’t touch a third color in Dreadstill without incredible reassurances (like DRS). Playing dual lands at the wrong time is absolutely lethal to any deck with Standstill - this is by far the most reliable way to punt away a win. Even with Vista allowing UW builds to play only 1x Tundra, that single dual is only barely able to win more games than it loses by being in the deck. In non-Dreadnought UW Standstill, you sometimes need REBs to patch the holes [previously plugged by Dreadnought], but it comes at a pretty horrific cost. UB Standstill can splash for white [Teferi, Sevinne’s] as a third color, only b/c of Creeping Tar Pit and cheaper wrath spells.

—

On direction of UW vs UR:

They’re drastically different approaches to legacy, so it really comes down to what style you like. The skill sets are not really interchangeable, but the way in which they view legacy and appraise cards does translate. The playstyle of the UR version is much more straightforward & quicker to learn & generally more forgiving, so that’s probably the one to start with. It will still take a few hundred hours on the deck to blend comprehensive format knowledge [twisted through the lens of Dreadnought] with appropriate sideboarding, technically precise play spanning turns-long plans, and never losing sight of life point trajectories. If you come in knowing the Stifle subgame [Wasteland vs Fetch vs Daze mastery, shared by Delver decks], you’ve got a great head start; this skill is worth somewhere around 50 hours by itself. If you’re trying to get into legacy financially, UR Dreadstill is a great starting point which will build directly into normal Delver decks and passively impart mastery.

The UW build is incredibly unforgiving and difficult, but so much more powerful and rewarding. The learning curve, and especially the re-learning curve if you’re used to normal legacy, are going to be brutal and long. You really have to love the archetype to want to put the work in on this one. The good news is that you’re going to be within $100-200 of straight-up UW Standstill, which is a far simpler deck to take a break with.

If you want to master Dreadstill and/or Standstill in paper, you really want to strive for 5-10 paper matches per week as speed of assessment and play require honing and upkeep. There’s all the COVID stuff making this impossible right now, but parsing everything the format can throw at you [online is fairly inbred] is the best way to learn.

[MoxHuman]

Hi all, i am new here and just built U/R Dreadstill in paper (relatively) and i have a few questions for the more experienced players here.
So i usually play Omnisneak and figured the manabase would be similar enough to be able to switch between that and dreadstill, i have 3 volcs from a while ago but for budget reasons i am using 4 flooded strands and 4 polluted deltas instead of scalding tarns because Omnisneak doesn't use a basic mountain they are just misc blue fetches for the islands and volcs.
I really dont want to pick up scalding tarns right now because they are expensive and will hopefully be reprinted and drop down to a more reasonable price, so would i be too weak to wasteland if i used the same fetches i have and a 3rd volc instead of the mountain? thanks and sorry if it was too much info.

Also i was wondering if this is the best spot to check for the most current agreed upon Dreadstill lists? Every time i do some googling for the deck everything is really outdated or i just end up here. lol

For sideboarding are the Agent of Treachery's there for playing against SnT? The only other thing i can think of is after a long standstill stalemate you might have enough lands in play to cast it but that seems like not correct at all idk?

Forgive me if some of this has been covered in this thread i have been trying to go through it but there is a lot, and again i really appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

[crispymelee]

first post

Welcome to the humble Dreadstill thread! First things first, we (or at least I) like info; the more we know about your question and its context, the better answers we're usually able to provide.

Manabase: while 4x Scalding Tarn + 3-4x Prismatic Vista would be ideal for running UR, you could probably get away with running 8x "U-fetch" and do okay. 3x Volcanic Island is just fine; the basic Mountain appears in lists that have more intense or repeated R requirements (such as running Grim Lavamancer or perhaps Chandra, Torch of Defiance). In your "generic" UR list, the only R spells you're likely to run in your main 60 will be Lightning Bolts in the main, and REB/Pyroblast or Shenigans out of the side.

Current Lists: we do have a Discord, where some of the more experienced pilots (Fox, Rood, among others) will livestream their test lists and do play-by-plays. Fox posts here fairly regularly or when there is some new breakthrough or tech to consider, but very broadly speaking, UR Dreadstill is in a spot where there are not too many slots in flux. The "ideal" cards for the majority are pretty set and is Rood's specialty; it is the UW and UB and even UBw builds that have received the most tweaking as of late, mostly on the Discord.

Agent of Treachery: this was a SB plan that Rood came up with to combat the excessive amounts of SnT he was running into on MTGO. Actual paper meta is quite different from MTGO, and Agent isn't something I would really consider unless you knew for sure to expect a lot of SnT.

Current UR Dreadstill "Shell":
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

3-4x Scroll of Fate
4x Standstill or 3x Standstill/1x Search for Azcanta

4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

20x Lands:
4x Scalding Tarn
3-4x Vista
6x Colorless (Wasteland, Mishra's Factory)
3x Volcanic Island
3-4x Basic Lands

The above shell is 55 cards. The options you can pick to fill it out will depend on what you expect to face in your meta; the below have all been discussed as options for different reasons. The list is not exhaustive and we'd love to have your input as well.
- Creatures: True-Name Nemesis, Brazen Borrower, Grim Lavamancer, Stratus Dancer
- Planeswalkers: JtMS*, Karn, the Great Creator, Chandra ToD, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer, Narset, Parter of Veils
- Interaction: Force of Negation, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare

*in the current meta, Big Jace is in a spot where he's not simply an auto-include when you have slots available, especially in UR.

Hope this helps!

[Fox]

Lacking Tarn is going to cost quite a bit of win%, but Prismatic Vista can cover some of that, but not all. Make sure you are running 4x Vista.

@crispyMelee has the mana base right for classical 3 Volc builds, but Vista changed quite a bit. I think the more ideal build is:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
4x Island
2x Volc
1x Mountain
6x Waste/Factory

The 21 land build is more stable, and better suited to playing Shark'nado (run at 2-3x most often). This is a really important anti-combo to look for in lists where people cut lands to fit in more Sharks, which is self-defeating.

Without Tarn, it's going to be really awkward whether or not you use 8x U-Fetch and 3x Volc, or 4x Vista and a basic Mountain. Both have strengths and weaknesses. 3x Volc is easier to learn, but 4x Vista wins more games (you get to choose your destiny, rather than always deferring to enemy Wasteland).

Echoing the above post, I would stay away from RR cards (Chandra) and Grim Lavamancer without Vista/Mountain. Choosing a no-Tarn mana base can be as simple as whether or not you want to run either of these threats.

The threat numbers are made strange by Shark Typhoon. There's a lot of non-Delver flippers between 21x land, 6x enchant, 2-3x artifacts. I think the most recent threat base we used was 3x Delver, 3x Nought, 2x Lavamancer, 2x TNN, 3x Factory, and iirc we were testing at 3x Shark 2x Scroll. This build requires optimal manabase, and quite a bit of experience [card appraisal].

The simpler build would be 4x Delver, 3x Nought (4th one is a Shark), 2x TNN, 3x Factory, 2x Shark, 2x Scroll. This puts you at 21 land, 13 threats. Rest of deck would be:
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Bolt
2x flex (Snare or FoN)

[Mr. Safety]

What does red really offer? Bolts and Pyroblasts? I don't know if those are worth the splash right now. I've always liked mono-blue and a card I'd like to try out is Ashiok,Dream Render. Wasteland, Stifle, and Ashiok could really put a lot of pressure on mana-bases. The graveyard hate isn't amazing, but it's also not useless much of the time, especially with Dredge doing so well lately. Dropping Delver means the spell counts can be manipulated better, especially considering this is one of the hardest decks to naturally flip a delver. Factory, Scroll, and Borrower do the heavy lifting for threats. I could easily see putting True Name back into a list like this, especially at 23 lands.

Rough list, if I were to take Dreadstill to a tournament tomorrow:

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Brazen Borrower

4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
3x Dismember
4x Standstill
1x Search for Azcanta
3x Scroll of Fate
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Narset, Parter of Veils

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
7x Island

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Spell Pierce
3x Ashiok, Dream Render
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Echoing Truth

[Fox]

Any idea that a [non-Vial] mono-color deck could be better than 2c died the day Vista got printed. This is an idea that was already in its death throes when Tarn was printed.

UR Dreadstill is a combo deck where everything counts to 20, which is why it works. The benefit of building this way is that it needs 0-1x Dreadnought hits to win. Every mono-U build needs 2x Dreadnought hits - this is not a winning strategy. Hitting with Dreadnought is not the main point of a successful build (too easy to beat).

Dismember is a bad card, as it not only requires opponents to play targets, it also is highly likely to fail at killing Goyf. Both Narset and JTMS auto-lose to Oko; there is no reason to even consider playing either of them un7less you're hiding behind Astro/Oko/Uro/Ice-Fang (which means you don't have room to be Dreadnought).

The list of playable PWs you can play against Oko (when you don't have Oko) remains: Karn, either Ugin, Nissa of the 5/5s, uncounterable Chandra, 5cmc Teferi.

[Fallen_Empire]

I haven't picked up a legacy deck since March. Thinking about sleeving up the new U/R sharknought to do some paper play testing. Are there any recorded matches still online? Any hot SB tech?

[Fox]

Pg.225 for some SB ideas @Fallen_Empire. Ashiok should be heavily considered as 1-2x.

[Kevftw]

Hey all,

How is U/R Dreadstill faring meta-wise currently?

I remember seeing a bunch of results a while back in the 5-0 and legacy challenge threads on the mtglegacy subreddit, but nothing of late, though I guess it might just be not many playing the deck.

I'm interested in playing the simplified build /w Shark that Fox posted below, however I don't have any Volcs or Tarns.

I was planning on splashing out and buying my first dual land (can get away with just the one for now?) and I could pick up the Tarns as well, however I already have the UB + UW fetches, so dithering on whether to go for an Underground Sea instead and build ninjas which has been putting up results lately. Dreadnought is what I'd like to play but it's quite the investment if it's struggling a lot.

[Fox]

The most important thing is having 8x perfect Fetches, so for UR it’s Tarns and Vista. The inability to Fetch basic Mountain is the #1 source of completely avoidable losses. This is more important than the Volc, since you can get by on 4x Tarn/4x Vista/5x Island/1x Steam Vents/1x Mountain/3x Waste/3x Factory. Upgrading the Vents to a Volc is definitely an improvement, but you’re still not allowed to play RR spells - this addition only comes with Volc #2 (-1 basic Island).

Any build without 2x Volc will be suboptimal...but as long as you’re not using wrong Fetches (Misty/Delta/Strand), your list won’t be crippled. The suboptimal maindeck with Steam Vents comes in at ~$1,125 and I don’t think there is anything particularly close to competing with this against the format in that price neighborhood. Even if you found a deck with comparable price and winrate, it is highly unlikely that such a deck can build rather directly into tier decks (either UR Delver* or SnT in the case of UR Dreadstill) with minimal financial waste.

*UR Delver is a joke budget deck when DRS is legal, and legacy has been hijacked by cards like Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus, Uro, Dreadhorde, Klothys, etc in DRS’ absence. On some level every legacy player understands that DRS needs to come back, and when that happens UR Delver will be re-exposed as the joke it always has been. The deck has a highly conditional tier status.

Dreadstill is the best financial approach for getting into the Volc family from scratch, but there are only 3 ways to play the UR family seriously (Dreadstill, UR Delver, and SnT) - make sure you enjoy playing at least one of these styles (and beware of what DRS unban means to UR Delver). Breaking out of this family and into a 3rd color will cost somewhere in the $1-1.5k range just for the mana to do so.

In terms of the meta position, there are very few people who play the deck online. Fewer still are the people that know how to build and play the deck. Just note that a lot of those 5-0s have self-defeating mana bases, not enough cards to support Delver flipping, going below 21 lands while going up on Shark’nado, and sometimes even Ponder...but they still got a 5-0. There’s a lot of things making it a great meta for Dreadstill.

For the UR version in particular, every real Delver deck forgot how to build their deck: 8x 1cmc threats, 4x 2cmc, 4x flex threats [TNN, Gurmag, Brazen, a PW]. Dreadstill maintains 8x 1cmc threats when we count Factory. Right now we’re in a time where pseudo-Delver [Dreadstill, also Shadow and Infect] structurally out-Delver the real Delver decks. We become the better Daze deck, and [for those with basics] the better Wasteland deck. These effects are multiplied Stifle (which isn’t why we play the card, it’s just a bonus backup mode). The real Delver decks are getting so slow and topheavy that we don’t even get called on dropping a Wasteland for better fixing, and that mana security unlocks the late game tools Scroll and Shark’nado vs not-Delver decks. UR Dreadstill ofc has its bad matchups, and it’s worse than UW Dreadstill at the novel prison game, but it’s a particularly nasty wakeup call to those who think hiding behind Uro/Oko lifegain matters in this format.

[Mauriby]

Howdy, folks. I've been perusing this thread for a bit, and I've been playing with the UW list a few pages back for a few days now. I guess I'm finally starting to feel like the deck makes a bit more intuitive sense now that I've played with it for a few days, although I've never played with a wishboard before, so that aspect at the very least has been quite confusing for me. Is there anyone here who has a link to some posts on the UW variation? I've skipped around a bit, and most of the discussion I see is on the UR lists. Also, I've heard there's a discord, and I'd like to get an invite to that if it's an open one.

[Fox]

For discord add GrossNuggligence#5645 and I will send invite. On the UW version, there’s not a huge amount of discussion since I’m the sole designer and for a long time the only player. Look up the release date of Scroll of Fate and backtrack a week or so (to when it was spoiled) is going to be the highest density of posts.

The timeline of UW Dreadstill discussion begins in the Czech Pile era (Tocatli Honor Guard spoiler), stops with the spoiler of Teferi 5cmc (discussion moves to UWx Landstill, no Noughts), and UW Dreadstill resumes within 5 minutes of seeing Scroll of Fate spoiler.

If you have any specific questions it’s fine to post them here. As far as I know there are only 3-5 serious players of the UW variant to date; between that and covid killing paper magic since ~march, there hasn’t been much time for people to identify this as a deck they want to sleeve up and discuss.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I asked myself if this deck was better with uro and oko and this is what I came up with:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dread-snowko/
Went 3-2 online in a league (donation to a better player to steam it) and I think the standstill parts were there worst parts of the deck. I think there's an uro/dreadnought/stifle deck out there and I don't know if dreadstill is it

[Fox]

The core of Dreadnought and Uro is Lotus Field which allows comboing Stifle in all directions, not to mention dumping honest Field off Uro trigger to ramp escape fodder. The payoff is Nissa of the 5/5s, with an intentional ramp plan under it and access to a hexproof Oko-killin land.

Once you start adding Oko and Astrolabe you've run out of space to be an effective Standstill, Dreadnought, and Dreadstill deck - cease and desist, and sleeve up 4c SnowKo; you're doing the same thing with worse tools.

On Oko in Dreadnought decks, it doesn’t offer anything unless it stays on board long enough to 1-card combo (2 activations per cycle). You don’t have the slots to deal with the 3/3s you’d give opponents (and these are bigger than 2/2s like Factory and manifests)....so all you really gain is a way to knock out a Chalice, which was already solved in a better way by Scroll.

—
To scrutinize the list you posted, first it has Flooded Strand and shame island (Sanctuary) without anything meaningful to recur. It has no 1-mana removal and no 1-drops or manlands to get under it’s own Standstill...and to compound all these issues of starting too slow, it’s Daze’ing land drops back to hand.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The core of Dreadnought and Uro is Lotus Field which allows comboing Stifle in all directions, not to mention dumping honest Field off Uro trigger to ramp escape fodder. The payoff is Nissa of the 5/5s, with an intentional ramp plan under it and access to a hexproof Oko-killin land.


Is this an actual deck somewhere?

[Fox]

Is this an actual deck somewhere?

Look back in this thread to time between Uro spoiler and Uro release date and you'll find the ideas behind it, and the problems that plague it. The list is a rough draft of what the deck would look like without Standstill. The list could be re-arranged into a much more unstable [loses to Goyf] configuration by stacking the 1-drop box with Delver and/or Crop Rot Magus/Hexdrinker trying to use Standstill and Daze.

[Fox]

Zendikar Rising review:
Lots of tools for budget manabases, especially for UR. Okay'ish support for not-Standstill CA (See the Truth and Confidant). Don't care about 3rd iteration of black enchant killer. Option-lands are ofc fine to test with Standstill. Check your decks for party status applications; 2 of 4 is pretty easy to get currently [Delver, TNN].

generic :u:
-Thieving Skydiver: Interesting effects on this card, but SFM is at an all time low. If this is an effect you're looking for, you can also consider Magus of the Unseen. There are plenty of things to steal in legacy right now [Astrolabe] and this card forces Delver to discard a card or trade in combat. Reasonable price for 1-2x experimentation under $5 each, but hard to say where such a card would settle when a card like Stratus Dancer dropped all the way down to ~50 cents. Pretty much the only interesting card in this section.
-Glasspool Mimic//Glasspool Shore: this seems like too much work to clone a Factory, but you could do it. Current price $2, worth around less than $1.
-Sea Gate Stormcaller: more of a UW card than UR, as Snapcaster's flash is more important with a card like Pyroblast. In UW there is less Daze'ing happening and it's not all that hard to get to the kicker mode, particularly with addition of Sevinne's necro'ing Fetches. Current price showing up at $12-15 for a card that is barely justifiable; maybe pick them up when their price drops around $3.
-Forsaken Monument & Lithoform Engine: Karn targets that would see competition for SB flex slots from effects like an Isochron Scepter. Monument bumps up manifests to 4/4s. More silly than playable, both are wildly overpriced. Monument ($10) is worth maybe $1 and Lithoform Engine ($20) type cards are known to settle at under $5.
:u::r:
-Magmatic Channeler: plays nicely with Goblin Welder, Reanimator, and See the Truth. Pretty decent price at $3.
-Roiling Vortex: SB option that does things; most useful vs Omniscience. Wouldn't spend much more than $1 on a copy.
-Concerted Defense: just note that UR plays wizards and rogues, so this is the closest UR has been to a Stubborn Denial option.
:u::w:
-Felidar Retreat: not currently playable; would need to see a playable way to wish this Field of the Dead effect out of the SB. Even at $1.50 it's wildly overpriced.
:u::b:
-Bloodchief's Thirst: alternative to Innocent Blood; quite playable despite sorc speed. Sitting around 35 cents, so pretty easy to get a playset.
-Inscription of Ruin: mana cost is pretty high, even without kicker, but this perhaps could operate like a color-warped Sevinne's Reclamation. I doubt you'd want to run more than 1-of, but this has interesting side modes when you're not using it to recur a Nought from GY (meaning you're probably running Karn and a SB Torpor). Getting 2x for $1 apiece is quite reasonable.
-Nullpriest of Oblivion: good at buying time vs Delver/Goyf, reasonable vs slow strategies like 4c SnowOko with the kicker. Currently priced at $2, so maybe get a playset if they drop down to $1. If you're going to turn Standstill into Confidant, this is a reasonable card to tinker with.
-Skyclave Shade: clear synergy with Standstill, but it can't block or gain life. Closer to playable than cards with keyword eternalize.

Budget:
-UR and UB duals: reasonable alternatives to Fiery Islet and River of Tears in budget builds. While more funny than good, it would be entertaining to be a blue deck with Boil in your SB. Price around $5 is reasonable.
-Valakut Awakening//Valakut Stoneforge: extra red source for budget build, reasonable spell effect when a Standstill is cracked (protection from death by land-cestral). Dislike the $4 price tag, feels like a $1 card you can play 1-2x at most.
-Spikefield Hazard//Spikefield Cave: instant, exiles Uro into his sac trigger, gets budget mana access to a little more red.
-Cleansing Wildfire: cantripping mana fixing for budget red mana base, backup mode GQ your opponent.
-can't bring myself to care about Fling, even if it has a land option.

Spec??:
-Spoils of Adventure: Feels like draw 3, gain 3 instant is going to have higher demand than $0.35 in standard. Reasonable card to spec on as it's rather Expansion//Explosion'y ($2.50).

[kombatkiwi]

-Skyclave Shade: clear synergy with Standstill,


The ability is "landfall - you can cast this from your graveyard" so it's not synergistic with standstill unlike the other versions of this effect (bloodghast or nether spirit etc that just put the creature onto the battlefield without casting it)

[Fox]

The ability is "landfall - you can cast this from your graveyard" so it's not synergistic with standstill unlike the other versions of this effect (bloodghast or nether spirit etc that just put the creature onto the battlefield without casting it)

It’s a fine card to discard to hand size without losing CA from a draw 3. The hardcast modes are better, including access to counters which make for 5/5 elks and it can reach Gurmag-killing size on it’s own. It doesn’t come back without being cast, but this card won’t stop being a credible problem until it’s exiled, and excess mana can be funneled into it. The no blocking bit is the part that tanks the playability, but still a better card than those with eternalize. The creatures you’re listing have too much black in the cost, and too little effect later in a game. While their triggered nature does work with Standstill, we’re looking for a yard-recursive effect as close to Uro as possible in UB.

[Fox]

Commander Legends stuff, not too exciting.
Opposition Agent $19 seems a bit egregious; not really interested in experimenting with this card till it costs $5 per copy. About the only thing that makes this interesting is that Scroll of Fate costs :3: so you've got some decent stuff to power out with Dark Rit. Not super amazing, but it's fine. You get to be UB, and that means you'll have access to Drown in the Loch.

mildly interesting:
Alena, Kessig Trapper beyond unplayable but ability ticks the box of turning Dreadnought into quad-Rit.
Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh I mean, it's free....Too bad it's not an Assembly Worker. Card doesn't need much help to push it to unreasonable.

So uh, ya, that's kinda it. Hullbreacher is real bad, save your money.

[Mr. Safety]

Discuss.

https://i.redd.it/dc31qg0mu4b61.png

[PirateKing]

Discuss.

https://i.redd.it/dc31qg0mu4b61.png

Discuss what?
Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?

[KobeBryan]

Discuss what?
Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?

This deck doesn't play enough lame creatures for the other side to turn their oko into.

If this was used in merfolk over phantasmal image, then maybe. But i rather have another phantasmal image than this. At least with image, I can copy a silvergill. This one i'm hoping to get a silvergill

[Fox]

Card is overpriced, currently around $8.50, when it should be worth about $1. It should be added to UW build over Snare, and trialed at 1-2x in UR (I'd probably start with SB here).

The backup mode: mangle dude or PW spells through Veil and Leyline of Sanctity.
The Stifle mode: target enemy dude, turn Dreadnought (or any card with Scroll) into said dude. Of note cycle Shark for 0 will create a clone. This also can be used to turn whatever into Factory.
The defense mode: they target Nought with removal, response target Nought, activate Scroll (or cycle Shark or flip JVP), get copy-Nought -> sac OG Dreadnought.
Anti-discard: hides in face down exile vs Duress/Seize. [anti-Depths]
Pro-Standstill: dump to exile at instant speed on our turn; so 8 card hand size with Standstill.

@KobeBryan incorrect. We play plenty of creatures with Factory and Scroll. Unlike other decks that would misuse this card, we can turn enemy spells suicidal or into Wasteland targets [or just ignore since Factory can't attack into Factory] or into 2/2's they can't unmanifest. We can also go Karn -> Liquimetal -> animate enemy PWs and start copying those. It's doing all this while being a 5th Stifle, albeit atypical. It is very much in line with Depths hate, the Standstill plan, and being able to neuter Oko. We also have the tools to pick these fights including Teferi passive if UW and a large number of instant speed creature generation to keep Ice-Fang from interrupting a sequence (JVP is another card that can go over Ice-Fang).

@PirateKing the point of Dreadnought decks is not to make a 12/12, but rather for this to be a thing we can do. There is no need to play a multi-token-at-once do-nothing card (which is already requiring a 2-3 mana setup cost, likely in the same turn). No need to bend over backwards to make more Dreadnoughts; going all-in isn't the plan. We combo sideways, preferring cards that advance every plan the deck has, rather than piling up on one.

[Mr. Safety]

Discuss what?
Is the aim to snipe an opposing Oko by turning it into a Dreadnought?
Or are you going to try and do some token storm thing and get half rounded down Dreadnoughts for yourself?

The big implication, at least for my approach as a mono-blue player, is to synergize it with Scroll of Fate and Dreadnought. It forces a sacrifice trigger for opponents when they play Uro/Oko so it basically 'counters' those creatures. With Scroll of Fate you can target a manifest token and opponents don't get their Uro/Arcanist/Oko/Emrakul/Griselbrand/Hullbreacher and instead get a creature that is easy to trade with your own manifest tokens. I think the biggest allure is that it's a trick that can be 'hidden' under a standstill: once opponent's are ready to crack a standstill with a decent threat you can still respond with this to make the threat useless.

I'm not saying it's great, but it has potential. Dreadstill is known for trying obscure cards, just look at Vision Charm, Illusionary Mask, and Torpor Orb. What I like about this card is:

1) It's blue 'removal' that *doesn't target*, useful for Emrakul, Marit Lage, and other problematic creatures. It even works on Progenitus. Big implications with Natural Order and any other creature-based combo decks.
2) It has a potential upside with the possibility of copying a Dreadnought/Borrower
3) It has the ability to hid under a Standstill so it limits your opponent's plays even further with Standstill on the battlefield.

It may not be good enough, but I like to see new cards slotted into this deck. It's a pet deck that I'm always evaluating for improvements.

EDIT: I want to make note of Fox's post above as well - you can activate a Factory and make a creature enter as a factory, then wasteland it, without targeting. I think this could be really useful.

[Reeplcheep]

Card is overpriced, currently around $8.50, when it should be worth about $1. It should be added to UW build over Snare, and trialed at 1-2x in UR (I'd probably start with SB here).

The backup mode: mangle dude or PW spells through Veil and Leyline of Sanctity.
The Stifle mode: target enemy dude, turn Dreadnought (or any card with Scroll) into said dude. Of note cycle Shark for 0 will create a clone. This also can be used to turn whatever into Factory.
The defense mode: they target Nought with removal, response target Nought, activate Scroll (or cycle Shark or flip JVP), get copy-Nought -> sac OG Dreadnought.
Anti-discard: hides in face down exile vs Duress/Seize. [anti-Depths]
Pro-Standstill: dump to exile at instant speed on our turn; so 8 card hand size with Standstill.

@KobeBryan incorrect. We play plenty of creatures with Factory and Scroll. Unlike other decks that would misuse this card, we can turn enemy spells suicidal or into Wasteland targets [or just ignore since Factory can't attack into Factory] or into 2/2's they can't unmanifest. We can also go Karn -> Liquimetal -> animate enemy PWs and start copying those. It's doing all this while being a 5th Stifle, albeit atypical. It is very much in line with Depths hate, the Standstill plan, and being able to neuter Oko. We also have the tools to pick these fights including Teferi passive if UW and a large number of instant speed creature generation to keep Ice-Fang from interrupting a sequence (JVP is another card that can go over Ice-Fang).


Backup mode: how often do we have a dreadnought in play and aren’t winning? It does seem decent with factory/scroll.
Stifle mode: paying 4 mana and 2 cards for a spark double that can easily be blown out seems pretty bad. Opportunity cost would be something like stifle bird which is not dazeable or card disadvantage.
Defense mode: this seems great as a decay answer but requires a decent mana investment.
Discard/standstill: no argument there, this is great.
Manifest: if you turn a (non-token) creature into a manifest why can’t they unmanifest? It should copy the manifest ability right? Can’t they just pay the mana cost to get it back? I need a judge to explain what happens with a Marit Lage token though.

[Mr. Safety]

Backup mode: how often do we have a dreadnought in play and aren’t winning? It does seem decent with factory/scroll.

If you haven't gotten a lot of time in with Dreadstill, its certainly possible to lose with a Dreadnought in play. It's actually pretty fragile against most of Legacy's removal. It's niche, but sniping a Snapcaster Mage that would flashback a Swords to Plowshares is nice. Having a way to recover from a removal by copying a Dreadnought (and sacrificing the original) seems like a really good way to overpower removal.


Defense mode: this seems great as a decay answer but requires a decent mana investment.
It's 2 mana, which is the same as Trickbind, which has gone in/out of the deck over time. The deck plays in the ballpark of 21-24 lands, it's not hard making land drops and making it happen. Hiding it under a standstill is fine, the deck plays a lot of draw/go and most of our counterspells don't cost mana. If you have it already in exile due to the foretold cost, I find it hard to believe a player would waste an Abrupt Decay when known information tells them it would be risky.


Manifest: if you turn a (non-token) creature into a manifest why can’t they unmanifest? It should copy the manifest ability right? Can’t they just pay the mana cost to get it back? I need a judge to explain what happens with a Marit Lage token though.


Yes, they can then flip it over if it is an actual creature card for its mana cost. Marit Lage doesn't work and PW's wouldn't work. One of the common uses for Scroll of Fate is turning dead Daze's and extra lands into 2/2 tokens; non-creature cards can't be flipped. For creatures like Arcanist they will still get their dude, unless you deal with it additionally (Wasteland/Factory trick) but what are the odds a Reanimator player will be able to hardcast Griselbrand or a Show and Tell player able to hardcast Emrakul? Marit lage is a non-bo because it's a token.

[Fox]

@Reeplcheep
-A classic response to Dreadnought is specifically a PW (JTMS, Teferi, Lilly, Oko, etc); we are very interested in Stubborn Denial-types that punish egregiously high-cmc sorcery speed answers.
-This card by definition can't be blown-out. You use this card upfront, and they have to do something about it. If they don't it gets real bad real quick with uncounterable options (Scroll, Shark'nado, JVP flip). All of this is assuming an opponent can even respond [Teferi passive]. Understand that spamming this card on EoT + cycle for 0 is incredibly abusive as it's risk free. The idea of target a thing, then turn a hardcast Dreadnought into that thing is not a primary plan.
-You can't unmanifest PWs, and if a creature enters face-down it cannot use ETB clause nor "as it enters" clauses.

Rules get real messy when you turn a token into a manifest. My gut feeling is that a token "ceases to exist" since it's not a legitimate game object; so it's just a 2/2 that will have no template to un-manifest to. Now none of this token-manifest theory matters unless some card attempts to turn it face-up...but even these effects will say "turn a face-down card." The rule you care about is "Put that card onto the battlefield face down as a 2/2 creature. Turn it face up any time for its mana cost if it's a creature card.

[Reeplcheep]

I am coming around to the card. However the “This turn” clause means you can certainly get blown out.

Say your t3 is this into sharkstill EOT to copy an arcanist. If they daze this you just got set back 3 (arguably 5!) mana.
Alternatively if you this into activate scroll and scroll activation gets stifled you just got double time walked.

Thanks for explaining the token interaction since most of the morph rules refer to permanents not cards.

Edit: this card is not 2 mana. This is the Wishclaw/demonic tutor/grim tutor thing all over again. TES (and uro) has shown us that 2 mana upfront then 1 mana on the critical turn is much better than 3 mana. However vintage shows us that it’s still not better than 2 mana on the critical turn.

[Fox]

Face-down stuff goes back to OG phasing rules, where the battlefield acts like a coin (one half phased in, one half phased out, still the same zone; and this idea of doing a zone change in every sense, with the understanding that you're staying in the same zone). This is why tokens did, and still should, be exiled on phase-out. The face-down side of cards originally "lived" in the phased-out zone, operating on this same concept that the battlefield is two half-zones. Sufficed to say, it gets messy quick, and I doubt face-down rules account for this scenario since the phased-out zone was disappeared by a wall of rules. The tldr would be that OG rules dictate a token ceases to exist as a template to be turned face-up; so even if an effect says "turn face-down creature face-up," it would just stay as a 2/2 nothing.

On the 'blowout' scenario, you're describing a 1-for-1, which is still winning as our deck did not 2-for-1 itself. If we cast this card and they discard Stifle on Scroll they're down a mana and a card. If they Daze, we let it go, untap and no longer play around Daze. If we cast the card, then cycle Shark for 0 and they Stifle the 0/0, we still draw a card; it's still a 1-for-1.

Edit: there is also this question of if Marit Lage ceases to exist face-down...can we even make a 2/2 manifest token...or does it have to be a card...so they can only try make a Lage into manifest, but fail and they get nothing at all. Rules unclear here. The closest we've ever come to this is Ixidron, but notice the non-token wording.

[FTW]

Is Face Down even a copiable attribute? Would the opponent's creature enter as a facedown 2/2 or just as a 2/2? Ixidron is different. It takes creature cards on the battlefield (nontoken) and turns them face down, instead of turning things into copies of an existing 2/2 face down creature.

Either way, I do agree this card looks very appealing with Scroll of Fate, opening up many different interactive lines of play.

Edit: Comp rules confirm that Face Down status is not a copiable attribute. The other creatures enter as a copy of the Manifested token, but they are Face Up 2/2s. Marit Lage will not be face down.

[Fox]

Is Face Down even a copiable attribute? Would the opponent's creature enter as a facedown 2/2 or just as a 2/2? Ixidron is different. It takes creature cards on the battlefield (nontoken) and turns them face down, instead of turning things into copies of an existing 2/2 face down creature.

Either way, I do agree this card looks very appealing with Scroll of Fate, opening up many different interactive lines of play.

I mean that's the question right. We have a legal target, and we know you can't copy unknown information (the face-down thing). So at best you get a 2/2 with no text if a token is being hit....but given that phased-out zone hated hard on tokens, and OG morph had face-down sides living in phased-out zone...the token should cease to exist, and it probably takes the vanilla 2/2 body with it. While you can take away the zone, nothing ever changed with all the rules of the zone.

There's also a foggy rules question where if a creature enters as a face-up manifest, meaning there is nothing face-down to flip into, are you again stuck with a vanilla 2/2 with no text?

[FTW]

See edit above. Face Down is not copiable.
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Face_down
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr706/

This interaction already would have come up in the past with any cards that create token copies of other creatures, e.g. Cackling Counterpart on a Morph or Manifest. The interaction is the same. The copy is a Face Up vanilla 2/2 with no text. It is already Face Up, so it cannot be morphed or otherwise turned face up, even if the original card had a morph cost.

So yes, this + Scroll of Fate is pretty much a non-targetting Frogify vs Marit Lage, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Progenitus, Oko, Karn, Uro...


Relevant Rules
706.2 When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics [...]. The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty).

Face down, tapped, exerted, and some other card statuses are beyond the text printed on the object and not copiable values.

707.2a If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability that doesn’t list any characteristics for that object, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost. A permanent that enters the battlefield face down also has these characteristics unless otherwise specified by the effect that put it onto the battlefield face down or allowed it to be cast face down. These values are the copiable values of that object’s characteristics.

If you manifest a card with Scroll of Fate, the copiable values of that creature are just "2/2", "0 cmc", "no text", "no creature types", "no name". Face down is not among them. Marit Lage enters with the copiable values: it becomes a Face Up 0 cmc colorless 2/2 creature with no abilities, no text, no name, and no creature types.

[Mr. Safety]

This makes the card even better. I think I'll nab some copies, if only to tool around with.

[Fox]

I think maybe today was last day of spoilers, so here's what I'm seeing:
Dreadstill
-Mystic Reflection: discussed in above posts, now down to $3.99 which is a reasonable price for the 2x we will try.
StifleNought
-Tales of the Ancestors more of a card for StifleNought since they can only dump hand and lack CA. Easy to see how this dodges discard with foretell and then turns into a draw 2+
-Ascendant Spirit almost good enough to drop Delver in Dreadstill. MonoU really shouldn't be played, but this card is quite a bit better than whatever the next best thing is after Delver. Would never play Pteramander anyways, and this card drives that point home.
Near misses for Karn
-Maskwood Nexus: this card is almost a good enough 1x in SB for Karn (assembly worker generator); never paying more than 50 cents for this lol.
-Cosmos Elixir: again the Karn wish stuff, pretty easy to get over 20 with Plow in deck. Not good enough for a slot, but again it was close.
---
On the not-legacy spec stuff...
-Cosmic Intervention for legacy it's a bad Sevinne's, but seems like a card modern might use. Price looks to be around $4, happier at picking them up for $1-2 in case modern ramps price.
-Rise of the Dread Marn: I feel like costing 1 mana after you ante up the foretell cost leads to pretty easy line of wrath -> make an army. It's at $1, so it's the card I'll spec a bit on.
-Frost Augur: listed at 25 cents, Scrying Sheets listed at $27. Seems like a pretty low risk spec.
-Invasion of the Giants: so it Preordains, then you get a free shock trigger with Stomp/Bonecrusher Giant reveal from hand, then you get a 4/3 for :r:. Feels like something modern would do taking a 25 cent card to like $3.
-Kaya, the Inexorable technically UBw Landstill could run a copy, but you read the ult and can see how it this could easily overwhelm standard. Probably a reasonable spec around $10 for ~2-4 copies. Probably fine to wait a week or so after release to see if it drops further.
-Sarulf, Realm Eater currently under $2, wouldn't really spec on it, but it's a good price to pick it the only 1-2 you'd ever want.

[Mr. Safety]

Mono-blue also gets Bind the Monster, which is at least an upgrade from Vapor Snag. After getting Scroll of Fate and Brazen Borrower the deck gets much closer to U/Colorless with every new card rather than U/X/Colorless. Mono-blue already plays like a 2-color deck because of so many colorless lands, which has always been my reasoning for avoiding a splash color (other than I can't afford Volcanic Islands, lol.)

The card that actually seems pretty good is Dream Devourer. The potential with Standstill seems really good. Once black is splashed it also gives decent removal with Fatal Push/Eliminate and opens up cards like Dark Confidant and Death's Shadow (which would be the delver sub.) Deathnought wasn't ever truly as good as I wanted it to be, but I'll be damned if I don't try it again some time soon.

[Fox]

The problem with Bind the Monster is that you're still taking damage, just like you would with Dismember. You also pick up losing to Chalice, losing to Pyroblast, and losing to FoV. Also, Dismember gets HullyB passive off the field.

[Reeplcheep]

The problem with Bind the Monster is that you're still taking damage, just like you would with Dismember. You also pick up losing to Chalice, losing to Pyroblast, and losing to FoV. Also, Dismember gets HullyB passive off the field.

You take a lot less damage dealing with the normal threats of legacy though. Delver, noble, swift spear, goblin lackey, arcanist, dryad arbor, elvish reclaimer...

It is also considerably better vs things dismember would rather not or can’t kill. Uro, Hogaak, stitcher’s supplier, vet explorer, goyf, big kotr, etc.

[Fox]

Look at those threats again @Reeplcheep. You're putting a blue enchant on board and giving it a free attack's worth of damage. They all play Pyroblast or FoV or Decay.

I can't stress this enough though: you cannot play this card vs untappers, even the single Scryb Ranger of Maverick. Just take the loss on Dismember, and be happy with killing TKS and HullyB through Chalice.

[Reeplcheep]

Look at those threats again @Reeplcheep. You're putting a blue enchant on board and giving it a free attack's worth of damage. They all play Pyroblast or FoV or Decay.

I can't stress this enough though: you cannot play this card vs untappers, even the single Scryb Ranger of Maverick. Just take the loss on Dismember, and be happy with killing TKS and HullyB through Chalice.

Maverick isn’t playing that anyways; elves sure. Complaining about decay/fow/pyro in your monoU dreadnought deck seems silly. Uro is the most played creature in the format which should be reason enough to play it. Not to mention game 1 bolt to the face is more common than pyro.

[Fox]

Maverick isn’t playing that anyways; elves sure. Complaining about decay/fow/pyro in your monoU dreadnought deck seems silly. Uro is the most played creature in the format which should be reason enough to play it. Not to mention game 1 bolt to the face is more common than pyro.

Maverick is playing Scryb Ranger and GSZ. You dump this nonsense on KotR and it free-attacks you on your turn, then they untap it using Scryb Ranger and you just got double striked. The game ends, and you have cards in hand you never got to roll out in the correct sequence because your "removal" just stole your time to use life as a resource. You don't get to spend life without reliably knowing what your life total is going to be moving into your next untap step.

So when we think about KotR, we know a 1cmc permanent is going to get countered by Chalice and killed by Decay [AggroLoam], and you know that Scryb will untap it +/- Maze sustaining that untap [Maverick]. Without ever playing a single game vs KotR, you definitively know that you now need 1 SB slot for every mainboard copy of Bind the Monster you can't side out fast enough - so what's that removal spell you're willing to give up ~20% of your SB slots to?

^This is why you still play Dismember main, and if you want a 1 mana local enchant, you have the option to reach for just 2x SB slots of Mind Harness (which re-ups summoning sickness if it's removed).

Edit: you're also gonna feel real bad when you realize tapping down a Collector Ouphe means you still can't use Scroll of Fate.

[Mr. Safety]

Comparing a new card to niche matchups isn't really that productive; there will always be decks that can work around new cards. You aren't beating Maverick with your removal anyways, they have way more threats than you have answers, in any version. You win with playing early Delver backed up with countermagic or combo-ing a Dreadnought with countermagic. In that context, just tapping down a blocker so Dreadnought gets in for more damage is still viable. Your argument about RUG/Snowko matchups makes more sense...except the key cards that you want to stop are Arcanist and Uro. You have a mana-advantage by forcing them to use Force of Negation or Abrupt Decay on your U enchantment, which leaves you the option to commit more resources to fighting on the stack or taking attention away from Dreadnought. I'm not saying this is a perfect card, but it could be a good one. If you can deal with their best threats (Arcanist, Uro, Oko) and you can land a Standstill I think that's how you beat Snowko.

Objectively, before testing, we know that Bind the Monster isn't the next best removal for blue. However, it's efficient enough to be tested to see if it's worth any slots. I am guessing this would only ever be 1-2 copies in a list regardless of what version you're playing. It gives more options to mono-blue. Is it as easily incorporated as Brazen Borrower was? No, not by a long shot. Is it better than Vapor Snag and Echoing Truth? Maybe.

[Fox]

The problem is it's every matchup that is suspect for Bind the Monster. I don't want to cast it anywhere near Elves/Maverick [untappers], DnT/Esper Vial [blinkers], any deck with Chalice, any deck with Marit Lage, any deck with Delver or Dreadhorde or Uro + Red blasts, postboard vs any Reclaimer deck [FoV], any deck with Grisel [draws your opponent 7 cards with the lifelink hit]. It's actually incredibly challenging to find any deck that I'd want this against; like maybe Shadow I guess...and, uh...I'm kinda blanking on any other deck where this would be good.

The thing about discussing fringe scenarios is that it's the only thing left to discuss. This is the only place to find any reason to ever play this card.

[Fox]

With Oko banned we've been able to drop the worst card in our deck: Daze. Winrates up about 5% with UR's move to Karn, FoN, and Mystic Reflection. Currently testing Ascendant Spirit, which is showing more promise than Delver (net loss of instant/sorc dropped delver to a 1-2x). It has also been nice to get off creature type human.

List is experimental at this time, but is shredding most things people are trying. Most of the work is being done on the SB. Smaller sample size, but we're clocking in a little north of 75% winrate. Eventually the format will devolve into Hymn vs Echo vs CB; maybe at that point I'll look at moving some things around.

2x Ascendant Spirit
3x Lavamancer
2x TNN
2x Dreadnought

4x Standstill
3x Shark'nado
2x Scroll of Fate
2x Karn

4x Bolt
4x BStorm
4x Fow
4x Stifle
2x FoN
1x Mystic Reflection

21x standard land kit.

SB in flux atm figuring out balance of wish/red blasts/yard hates/shatter suite. In terms of maindeck, mostly waiting for a manland that doesn't exist yet, or a Desert Fetchland; either one would make it easier to get in the second copy of Reflection. No interest in the U or R spell lands at this time, though the red one is quite close to being played.

On the more humorous side of things someone tried to play UR artifact lands/PainterGrindstone/Liquimetal maindeck. The Liquimetal maindeck stuff is not acceptable, and as these things go, they jammed a Viashino Heretic, only to get responded to by our SB Gorilla Shaman. They conceded to 3 mana Rain of Salt. As silly as ye olde Gorilla is, it's been making a strong case for its SB slot.

Edit: unfortunately they banned Dreadhorde, which was supposed to keep Delver losing to us. The price of that will unfortunately be the unavoidable race to the bottom, as Delver decks are completely unable to hate down Hymn and CB (whilst we turn to address Echo, until it is inevitably banned). Maybe there will be a few months until total hand destruction goes back to 25% of the meta, but I think it'll be sooner than this.

[Jackehehe]

Hey dreadstillers!

I'm considering picking up legacy after a long abscence, and thinking about ventering unto MTGO (which ive never tried before). Before I rush headlong I'd like to watch some streams to see how MTGO works in general and how dreadstill fares in particular. I heard Rood and Fox streams sometimes? Would you/anyone mind sharing their streams? anyone else's too for that matter?

Incidentally, anyone cares to share some general remarks on MTGO. Is it alright to play on or is it super buggy / not enough players etc?

Thanks!

[Fox]

Check inbox for instructions on joining Dreadstill discord.

On the mtgo interface, it's pretty miserable, but the bugs are generally addressed in a timely manner. I know of no bugs affecting us at this time. There are pretty significant questions about the shuffler's programming. It's a little too high on the rate of sending back a card you put on top post-cantrip/shuffle. Other than the shuffler annoyance, the 25 minute chess clock doesn't really account for the time lost for clicking through things we would shortcut in paper. Any time left over from sideboarding should probably be refunded to clock (especially as the format descends into the sheer stupidity and time-wasting that is the Hymn and CB meta).

There are a few videos up on Piproberts' youtube, though these are pre-Oko ban, and the deck has changed considerably.

[Mr. Safety]

Check out ELD's Time Vault games on YouTube, there are a handful of matches where Rood is playing his signature Ur Dreadstill list. Pretty good insight on how to play the deck, Rodney has been involved with the deck for a long time with good results.

Edit: DOH! I wasn't paying attention; you specficially asked about MTGO content. Sorry!

[Jackehehe]

Thanks both of you (stream of IRL plays are also interesting!)! I remember Rood from when I used to lurk this thread about eight years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you around here also, Fox? I guess it might make sense to wait a bit with "buying in" on MTGO now that Oko has been banned. But I heard there are sites from where you can rent cards? Might be a nice idea in the interim, I guess. Although my "entertainment budget" is anyhow nowhere near spent since there was pretty much nothing to spend it on last year!

[Reeplcheep]

MTGO is horrible for anything involving loops (rip food chain/bomber man) and the ui can be unintuitive. The community is small enough you do recognize people but it’s definitely less social than irl. For most decks the timed saved shuffling vastly outweighs the losses of clicking through things.


MTGO is absolutely worth it if you want to become a better player. Being able to take any brew and play against some of the best in the world whenever you want is great. It’s very clear about priority, phases and other rules qwerks you would miss in paper. Chess clocks rewards tight play instead of having to hound your opponent for slow play.

[bomberman32]

I know most people go either mono U or UR for dreadstill deck. Is there a viable option in UW? Kinda like miracles/standstill, but with an actual win con. Could run shark typhoon as well

[KobeBryan]

I know most people go either mono U or UR for dreadstill deck. Is there a viable option in UW? Kinda like miracles/standstill, but with an actual win con. Could run shark typhoon as well

Yes. That white enchantment that becomes a creature. Then you also have factories and sharks. You don't need any more than that.

[Fox]

I know most people go either mono U or UR for dreadstill deck. Is there a viable option in UW? Kinda like miracles/standstill, but with an actual win con. Could run shark typhoon as well

The primary deficit in UW Standstill/Landstill is lifegain; and the best lifegain in white is still StP your own Dreadnought. There is also a cluster of problems that arise from trying to cast Verdict against Port/Vial for Standstill/Landstill. The issue with Terminus is that they would need 4x Portent, 3x Terminus instead of what is more often 2x Ponder, 2x Verdict. So the overall answer with card Standstill is that the optimal configurations are UW Dreadstill, UR Dreadstill, or UBw Landstill.

While UW/r Standstill/Landstill is playable, it is generally less reliable; it also suffers from not having access to any playable (if you're serious about winning) mana-requiring counterspells. It is getting to the point that maindeck REB or Tale's End are the best possible things to be doing, while Snare/Dovin's/Cspell/Pierce all just oscillate between losing to boardstate or losing harder to Veil or losing harder to Thassa - this clustering is unacceptable for hard control to absorb at deckbuilding. The one thing UWr Standstill has going for it is Spikefield Hazard as a hidden 2x land, and 2x SB Nahiri +1x Mind Slaver Emmy.

To be clear on a few cards: when Standstill is mentioned, Shark'nado is there; if it isn't there the deck isn't built correctly. Myth Realized which @KobeBryan referenced is not a playable magic card in Dreadstill. I would argue that it's not even playable in UW/r Standstill anymore.

On UW Dreadstill, the banning of our 1x Astrolabe has messed up structure of the deck. To compensate the manabase has been moved around to:
4x Vista
4x Strand
2x Plains (split snow)
4x Island (split snow)
1x Tundra
1x Karakas
3x Wasteland
1x Field of the Dead
1x flex slot (we have tried Desert, Hostile Desert, Oboro, and Island thus far).

Previously we had 3x Factory and were much better able to use the Teferi passive. The extra slots in the main have gone to a 3rd Shark'nado and Standstill. With Oko banned, Masticore removed from SB. With Factory moving out, Mystic Reflection currently for UR Dreadstill only. The test card in Spell Snare's slot is Cosmic Intervention at this time. With the loss of Astrolabe (and its E-Tutor), we have shifted a Stifle to a second Scroll. Rest of deck looks like:

3x Nought
1x JVP
3x Shark'nado

3x Teferi 3cmc
2x Karn (a PW shared by UBw Landstill)

4x Bstorm
4x FoW
4x Plow
2x FoN
3x Stifle
3x Standstill
2x Scroll
2x Verdict
1x Azcanta
1x Sevinne's
1x Cosmic

SB can be found on pg.1 of this thread. C-Priest can be changed to 2nd Ashiok [Omniscience, Uro]. RiP and Ratchet Bomb are flex slots.

I've talked about it before in this thread (probably in last 10 pages) about the gameplay of UW; just understand that the deck has a very steep learning curve, and it will be a little steeper with Astrolabe ban destabilizing the construction. UR is far more forgiving and quicker to learn.

If you would like to learn Dreadstill, you can pm me to get access to the discord. A sample league can be seen on Piprobert's YouTube channel, and I'll try to work with him to create a video of the 4-1 league we played together.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes. That white enchantment that becomes a creature. Then you also have factories and sharks. You don't need any more than that.

Myth Realized

[Reeplcheep]

I know most people go either mono U or UR for dreadstill deck. Is there a viable option in UW? Kinda like miracles/standstill, but with an actual win con. Could run shark typhoon as well

Pure standstill is boshNrolls pet deck. I am not sure if fox is talking about UW dreadstill but UW standstill is a solid deck.

Hall of heliod plus shark typhoon is an incredible and uncounterable grind engine vs other blue decks, and lets you just jam that t2 standstill into most board states. Overall the wincon has many advantages over dreadnought. Field of the dead doesn’t turn on easily, etbs tapped, and is awkward with moat.

[Fox]

Moat really should not be in Standstill. Oko is banned, play Humility and stop losing to SnT, Skyclave, shatter-bears.

I was talking about UW Standstill and Dreadstill. The problem with Standstill is that white is the third worst color for lifegain; this is a primary deficit.

[Reeplcheep]

Moat really should not be in Standstill. Oko is banned, play Humility and stop losing to SnT, Skyclave, shatter-bears.

I was talking about UW Standstill and Dreadstill. The problem with Standstill is that white is the third worst color for lifegain; this is a primary deficit.

None of your lists in the last several pages have any lifegain whatsoever...

[Fox]

None of your lists in the last several pages have any lifegain whatsoever...

Dreadnought is a 1 mana 12/12, please read Swords to Plowshares. All removal in a list with Dreadnought needs to have multi-modal application; while gain 12 isn't as good as 3 to the dome of Lightning Bolt, it solves the biggest problem the card Standstill has when played with UW or UWr.

[Reeplcheep]

Dreadnought is a 1 mana 12/12, please read Swords to Plowshares. All removal in a list with Dreadnought needs to have multi-modal application; while gain 12 isn't as good as 3 to the dome of Lightning Bolt, it solves the biggest problem the card Standstill has when played with UW or UWr.

I think Poe’s Law applies here. Are you honestly saying 3 cards and 3 mana for 12 life is a viable line in legacy vs not-burn?

[Fox]

I think Poe’s Law applies here. Are you honestly saying 3 cards and 3 mana for 12 life is a viable line in legacy vs not-burn?

Against Burn it is -2 cards so Burn loses 4 cards/draws, yes. Against Delver we go a step further than UW Standstill, where we don't just kill their guys with white cards and turn Daze into -1 card penalty, we can also turn off all the Bolts in their deck too (in multiple ways, Wasteland or gain 12)

This function of deleting Delver's red cards from relevance means our blue cards are freed up to function as instant speed discard on the stack, and this leads to inevitability over time [that time bought by +12 life]. It should also be noted that we have a 12/12 on board which may also be in a position to block or attack [and it kills Library users real quick].

Lifegain is the primary deficit causing losses in UW Standstill decks without Dreadnought. It used to be the second Tundra and the god-awful inability to grab basic white from half of our Fetches, but Vista solved this problem.

[sdematt]

New card got spoiled: Strict Proctor

1W, Flying, 1/3

Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a trigger, counter that ability unless it's controller pays 2.


So....thoughts for Dreadnought?

[KobeBryan]

New card got spoiled: Strict Proctor

1W, Flying, 1/3

Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a trigger, counter that ability unless it's controller pays 2.


So....thoughts for Dreadnought?

Better to just use husbringer since this deck doesn't really play ETB except for Dreadnought.

[Fox]

New card got spoiled: Strict Proctor

1W, Flying, 1/3

Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a trigger, counter that ability unless it's controller pays 2.

So....thoughts for Dreadnought?

Prefer Tocatli (blocks Confidant, Thalia, etc) b/c I can actually make plans that go beyond "this card does nothing to stop triggers after turn 4."

Torpor Orb that also hits cast triggers or Torpor Orb on a land [preferably common to clean up pauper] and we'll have something to talk about. Bonus points if super Torpor Orb is also a Cursed Totem + stopping cast triggers.

[Fox]

Looked over Strixhaven, not much there:
Test of Talents not really needed with FoN, and Khans had Psychic Rebuttal. The card is playable however. Costs around $0.5 which is appropriate.
Tend the Pests wrong colors for Dreadnought, but instant allows it to mimic Empty the Warrens. Costs around $0.5 which is appropriate.
Quandrix Command anti-Lage, anti-Thassa, anti-Grindstone. Protects own permanents. Costs around 80 cents, so worth it to pick up 1-2x.
Hall of Oracles pretty decent with Mishra's Factory. Costs around 50 cents, worth spec'ing on a couple since it's better than Gavony Township ($1.5-2.5 depending on version).

Learn stuff:
Divide by Zero can find Confront the Past and little else is worth tutoring. mechanic currently irrelevant.
---
Commander has less:
Cunning Rhetoric anti-Hymn spam, as these decks hide behind SCM and Strix. Currently overpriced a $5.
---
Of note there were two reprints of life gained = life drained in Commander, and Strixhaven had BG dude who almost had the right text but it only says "when you gain, drain 1." Getting closer to combining Shadow and Dreadnought + Arguel's Blood Fast. Eventually they will screw up and print something more playable than Vito. On the topic of WB, now is a good time to pick up 1-2x Kaya 3cmc for $4 each.

[Clark Kant]

Really loving this video, I think this might be the best way to abuse Dreadnought...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZNWa8_KaE

[Fox]

Stacking 9x Topor Orb effects that don't get better in multiples is most certainly not the best way to play Dreadnought. That deck is dead to the variance of half its cards having no text: Lands and Torpor effects. It also has red for absolutely no reason.

Tomb, City, and Stompy pieces do not go with Dreadnought. Save your money, that deck has horrific amounts of financial waste without competitive progress.

[KobeBryan]

Stacking 9x Topor Orb effects that don't get better in multiples is most certainly not the best way to play Dreadnought. That deck is dead to the variance of half its cards having no text: Lands and Torpor effects. It also has red for absolutely no reason.

Tomb, City, and Stompy pieces do not go with Dreadnought. Save your money, that deck has horrific amounts of financial waste without competitive progress.

Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.

[Fox]

Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.
Yeah, the nice thing about his Standstill and Dreadnought VoDs is that despite the deckbuild issues, BoshNRoll is better able to identify cards that matter and to recognize when deckbuild errors lead to futile board states turns in advance. The sideboard is generally higher quality, and BoshNRoll is proficient at understanding the context of cards in a matchup, and this leads to more correct than incorrect sideboarding. When summing up the deck at the end, his assessments are more correct than incorrect.

In comparison ThrabenU's Standstill and Dreadnought VoDs often have oversimplified maindecks, with more profound flaws, and self-defeating sideboard strategies. In his defense these are largely unaltered donation lists, and they generally come up short in predictable ways. As he plays these out, there is a heavy skew towards living off the topdeck, rather than looking turns in advance. This type of loose play leads to death by topdecking cards like Standstill; but it's also not surprising when one is conditioned by getting handed effortless value that can be jammed into any boardstate [i.e. outside of staring down a Plague Engineer or the threat of one, DnT's play experience doesn't really lend itself to taking one's time]. If you look past the tendency he has to stay in lost games far too long and the often questionable card evaluation at sideboarding, you have generally reasonable plays with a decklist that is more or less destined to fail. Unfortunately he routinely goes the extra step to make woefully misguided hot takes on the entire archetype based upon these donation leagues.

Regardless of which of their lists we're talking about, dual lands are heavily overutilized and give a false idea of the cost of entry to the format, during one of the more ridiculous periods of price spikes. More than this, manabases this unstable miss the point of Dreadstill and Standstill/Landstill: to pursue a coherent strategy of consistent mana progression - i.e. just use Prismatic Vista. Those who play mono-U Dreadnought are guilty of something similar; there is nothing stopping them from playing 4x Tarn 4x Vista and 1x Mountain either as land #19 or Wasteland #4; WotC literally handed them Bolt and SB Blasts on a silver platter when they made Vista.

[n3d]

Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.

I really liked that video. Wondering if anyone is playing that deck with lazav the multifarious. Attacking as Uro then switch to dreadnought looked amazing.

[Fox]

I really liked that video. Wondering if anyone is playing that deck with lazav the multifarious. Attacking as Uro then switch to dreadnought looked amazing.

You can find some games with a deck like that on 90sMTG videos.

Be aware though that the deck isn't stable; it falls into the trap of not only being weak to Surgical target Dreadnought, but by playing Uro it guarantees opponents will bring in the Surgicals. Also there is no world where you can play that deck without Wastelands b/c Surgical Dreadnought, have a Karakas puts the deck on the only out of Scroll of Fate making 2/2s.

In BoshNRolls SB'ing be aware that boarding out Dreadnoughts and submitting a deck with just Lazav and Uro is pretty much a deterministic loss to yard hate, with the *only* out being to find a Scroll of Fate [of which the deck played too few].

The greater problem is that you could just play BUG value and cut the Dreadnought stuff for Living Wish boarding out 1 Uro, and have achieved the same thing: an Uro deck that has a non-GY path to winning. Again be very aware that siding out Dreadnoughts [your most numerous non-GY path to victory] is wildly incorrect.

[n3d]

Be aware though that the deck isn't stable; it falls into the trap of not only being weak to Surgical target Dreadnought, but by playing Uro it guarantees opponents will bring in the Surgicals.

Ohh I agree, but with playing lower tier decks there is always this kind of trade off.

Also, was reading through this thread and say a deck list from a month ago. Has anything changed with Strathaven for this deck?

[Fox]

On the trade-off, there's always the tier 2 trade-off of increased power with increased variance; but you don't have the luxury of deckbuilding and sideboarding into losses to cards known to be in meta-deck sideboards. The stock Dreadstill list hasn't changed, though there are two approaches of Daze vs no-Daze. I would lean towards no-Daze in this meta. Strixhaven and commander breakdown can be found a few posts above; nothing has changed with these sets.

[Clark Kant]

I have not found standstill necessary, Uro fills a similar role that standstill did of buying time by gaining life, drawing cards and allowing you to build up your manabases.

I agree with the people who say Hushbringer is far superior to Torpor Orb/Proctor/Mask etc.

People are sleeping on Hushbringer and Dreadnought. Hushbringer is incidental hate against so much of the format (goblins, death and taxes, veteran explorer, academy rector, stitcher's supplier, thought-knot seer, doomsday/thassa's oracle, Snapcaster Mage etc). Torpor Orb doesn't hit Veteran Explorer/Academy Rector, doesn't beat for 1 to block a turn one goblin lackey when on the play or have life link to slow burn.

Hushbringer and Stifle pair incredibly well with Dreadnought and Uro in the Xerox shell, alongside Daze and Wasteland to give you another angle with which to abuse Stifle (the cantrips are fantastic at finding counterbackup and missing parts of the combo). The below maindeck has been performing incredibly well for me.

//Core Cards

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Hushbringer

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

2 Preordain

4 Force of Will

4 Stifle

4 Daze



//Flex Slots

2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Teferi, Time Raveler

1 Mother of Runes

1 Spell Snare

1 Spell Pierce



//Mana

1 Noble Hierarch

4 Wasteland

2 Tropical Island

1 Snow-Covered Island

2 Windswept Heath

1 Island

2 Tundra

1 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Karakas

4 Flooded Strand



It plays a lot like Delver if Delver only had to get 2 swings in to kill the opponent.


//Sideboard (Built using only cards that I already had so has significant room for improvement)

2 Swords to Plowshares

2 Deafening Silence

1 Ravenous Trap

4 Veil of Summer

2 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Pithing Needle

1 Mother of Runes

2 Containment Priest



I came very close to 5-0ing with this list. I won game 1 every time but seem to be having difficulty in my postboard games. I know that my sideboard needs work, as I'm very new to Legacy MTGO and built the sideboard mostly using cards that I already happened to have from playing Modern and Pauper on MTGO.

Here is a video showing the first draft of the Mardu Vaka Nought list in action though the current build replaces Eater of Days with Kroxa...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3BwELMIBI&t=1s

[Fox]

It's fairly pointless to play Teferi just to make sorcery speed, summoning sick, phased-in Noughts and pass to the opponent's mainphase.

On Hushbringer: useless in multiples. Scroll of Fate can transmute extra copies of itself into 2/2s - something you need, since Uro is a lightning rod for Surgical [and your list does nothing with Nought and Uro hit by Surgical].

The thing you've forgotten about Torpor Orb is that it can sit in the SB, which means it's still part of the maindeck b/c of Karn [except we don't have to risk drawing it]. Karn also wishes for Noughts in exile or SB. The combination of Karn and Scroll of Fate dumpsters Chalice.

Veteran Explorer is not a card we need to answer - all that card does is ramp us into Shark Typhoon. The main cards you need to beat in legacy are: Goyf, Counterbalance, Hymn, Echo, and Uro. Outside of that there is really only Thassa, Chalice, GY-using combo pieces [includes Loam], E-Bridge, SnT, Dark Depths, Vial, and if you have the tools Allosaurus Shepherd and Veil.

Other than Thassa, Vial, and Depths your deck isn't really convincing vs the rest, particularly if they run Surgical postboard. A key point about attacking those cards: your strategy isn't allowed to just die to removal and flying deathtouch cantrip walls. You are all-in on Uro for this, and that's incredibly fragile - both by itself and with a super suspect mana base behind it.

If you have to play UG, take the loss and play those colors, also drop Daze. Dreadnought, Uro, Lotus Field all seen by Stifle. All of these work with the top end of Nissa of the 5/5s and Karn. Have Reclaimers [note how this finds Lotus Field], Ice-Fangs, and GSZ. Have some utility lands like Field of the Dead and Blast Zone. Have perfect mana: 4x Misty, 4x Vista, 1x Trop. If you need to you can add Verdict to the 75 and either cast it off Lotus or pitch it to one of the 6 pitch-counters.

The video you posted is his most recent BW version that perfectly demonstrates how doing the Dreadnought thing as hard as you can isn't an effective way to play legacy. Like at least play Opposition Agent if you have Dark Rit in not-Storm. The mana was also atrocious, including totally unforced 3x Scrubland. I don't understand his fascination with losing to Wasteland for no reason. It just can't be that hard to play 4x BW Fetch and 4x Vista with 5x Swamp 1x Plains 1x Scrub....

[Mr. Safety]

The video you posted is his most recent BW version that perfectly demonstrates how doing the Dreadnought thing as hard as you can isn't an effective way to play legacy. Like at least play Opposition Agent if you have Dark Rit in not-Storm. The mana was also atrocious, including totally unforced 3x Scrubland. I don't understand his fascination with losing to Wasteland for no reason. It just can't be that hard to play 4x BW Fetch and 4x Vista with 5x Swamp 1x Plains 1x Scrub....

People pay him to play their decklists, you could argue because they like to explore fun, even if bad, deck ideas. He's very honest about how good/bad the deck performs as well; he gives it a small moment on the most recent Eternal Glory podcast.

For the life of me I don't know why you continue to maintain such a high emphasis on Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance. At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best.

[Fox]

People pay him to play their decklists, you could argue because they like to explore fun, even if bad, deck ideas. He's very honest about how good/bad the deck performs as well; he gives it a small moment on the most recent Eternal Glory podcast.

For the life of me I don't know why you continue to maintain such a high emphasis on Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance. At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best.

You should fast forward to his breakdown of the deck, the worse it performs the more he lauds it. The deck went 2-3 and picked up at least one if its wins from DnT, which is one of that build's few free wins. He is at least right that the deck consistently did it's thing, but he missed the next part: the thing isn't good enough by itself. In addition to making big things consistenly, the deck consistently: mulligan'd, got wasted, got 2 for 1'd by killing the Torpor effect, and sat there drawing the wrong half of the deck, and failed to untap & attack with the big things.

On Hymn and CB, the way this works is CB is less offensively reliable since the banning of SDT....but the moment people start spamming Hymn, all the Tundra mages run to CB and roll the luck dice. The only thing that can break this cycle is a 1-card combo that ignores Hymn spam [currently Uro; previously Oko, DHA, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn, DTT, TC].

When a 1-card combo invalidates Hymn, all the spammers have to play it and all the would-be CB exploiters hilariously end up on the exact same jammy jam midrange pile as the Hymn spammers. It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone; they're just waiting for the last proactive anti-Hymn card to be banned.

[kombatkiwi]

On Hymn and CB, the way this works is CB is less offensively reliable since the banning of SDT....but the moment people start spamming Hymn, all the Tundra mages run to CB and roll the luck dice. The only thing that can break this cycle is a 1-card combo that ignores Hymn spam [currently Uro; previously Oko, DHA, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn, DTT, TC].

When a 1-card combo invalidates Hymn, all the spammers have to play it and all the would-be CB exploiters hilariously end up on the exact same jammy jam midrange pile as the Hymn spammers. It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone; they're just waiting for the last proactive anti-Hymn card to be banned.

"It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone, Hymn would come back if the format was different"

It sounds like Hymn is in fact gone then? You arent even disagreeing with Mr safety comment that "At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best"

[Fox]

"It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone, Hymn would come back if the format was different"

It sounds like Hymn is in fact gone then? You arent even disagreeing with Mr safety comment that "At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best"

You missed the part about Hymn being the most protected card by bans. Given that history it would not be surprising to see Uro banned. Ask yourself where all the Hymn spammers are - hint: on Uro.

[Mr. Safety]

You missed the part about Hymn being the most protected card by bans. Given that history it would not be surprising to see Uro banned. Ask yourself where all the Hymn spammers are - hint: on Uro.

That's ridiculous; you're the only person that I've ever read about Hymn being a ban-worthy card. The most protected card by bans is Brainstorm, I don't think there is a reasonable debate about it, and you could argue that there are other cards that are more protected than Hymn (Delver of Secrets comes to mind.) I wouldn't ask myself where all the Hymn spammers are, because Hymn isn't a powerful enough card in the current legacy metagame. Do you genuinely think that if Uro gets banned Hymn will make a miraculous reappearance? It has certainly played a role in legacy, and may do that again, but it hasn't in a long time. Bringing it up, alongside another fringe card like Counterbalance, doesn't make any sense. If those cards are barely played, why would we build with them in mind? It seems to me that once legacy makes a shift, such as with Arcanistn, Oko, Uro, etc, it doesn't ever really go back to a previous status quo. Each year more cards slip away from the metagame. Hymn is likely going to be one of those cards. EDIT: are you speaking specifically of Veil of Summer? That's been relegated to a sideboard card, and one that rarely appears in quantities more than 2.

I'm pretty sure the Hymn-spammers are a fantasy...Hymn to Tourach according to mtgtop8 is the 130th most played card, beaten out by legacy powerhouse format-warpers Birds of Paradise, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Mishra's Factory. None of the decks to beat, in any forum, plays Hymn to Tourach.

[Fox]

Not banned does not equal protected by bans.

Bans in legacy do not correlate with keeping Brainstorm or Delver of Secrets relevant. Hard stop.
Bans in legacy do correlate with keeping Hymn relevant.

Increased hand size in zone you can't discard - banned [SDT].
Reverse the discards - banned [DTT]
Competing double discard - banned [Probe, into Therapy. specifically Grixis Delver]
Pick up the discards, machine gun flying deathouch cantrip walls - banned [Wrenn]
One card combo using the discards - banned [Breach, Lurrus, DHA]
One card combo that invalidates every single one of Hymn's onboard value engines - banned [Oko]

One card combo, immune to discard b/c of recursion - not yet banned [Uro]
One card combo that can't be maindecked profitably outside of TES or SnT - irrelevant/narrow [Veil]


Do you genuinely think that if Uro gets banned Hymn will make a miraculous reappearance?
Of freaking course I do, b/c Shardless, Blade, Czech, Grixis, not-Delver Wrenn, not-Delver Oko, not-Delver Uro is the same deck with the same pilots. They are playing Uro b/c its dumpsters Hymn, the very card they would otherwise revert to within minutes of an Uro ban. On the Counterbalance side, it's not proactively reliable anymore. That's why they're on the anti-Hymn card [Uro] - that's the joke. There isn't actually a difference between a Hymn spammer or a Counterbalance exploiter.

Legacy is a very simple format: Goyf -> total hand destruction (Hymn/SCM, CB, Probe, Echo/LED) -> 1 card combos that don't care if you destroy their hand or play Goyf [Uro, Oko, Wrenn, DHA, Lurrus, Breach]. Now sure, there are some minor cards/effects to care about outside this like Vial, Loam, Chalice, SnT, Thassa, Ensnaring Bridge, [insert combo card that uses GY], etc...But at the end of the day it's just total hand destruction currently held at bay by Uro.

Insofar as we don't have to play the farce that was the CB/SDT, Czech, or Grixis era, it's technically progress. At the same time, it's not like the cards that opt-out of dying to Goyf are healthy (Strix, Ice-Fang, SFM, SCM, Uro]. Neither are the cards that opt-out of dying to CB or Hymn healthy (Post, Cavern, Vial, Boseju, Uro, Klothys, 6cmc Chandra-types, Echo-derping, Thassa, Field of the Dead). It's easy to get lost in all the things going on in legacy, but players should still be able to spot the 800 pound gorilla: total hand destruction.

[Mr. Safety]

You are alone in this sentiment, I think. For myself, I will not operate under the assumption that I need to build my decks with Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance in mind. That just isn't reality. I find your statements amusing, but ultimately unconvincing.

[Reeplcheep]

They could have easily banned veil instead of labe if hymn (instead of wasteland) was a sacred cow.

If hymn was so good and only held back by veil/uro, Grixis and pox would have great elves/d&t/ur delver matchups... but they don’t.

[H]

If hymn was so good and only held back by veil/uro, Grixis and pox would have great elves/d&t/ur delver matchups... but they don’t.

This is "company standard" Fox though, as we've seen thoughout the years (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation&p=1078343). The idea is that Hymn and Couterbalance are horribly broken, but somehow there is always something that mitigates and results in Hymn/Counterbalance not actually dominating anything really. It's almost as if Hymn/Counterbalance really aren't all that broken, just fairly good cards that often see play, sometimes are really good, but rarely, if ever, are actually broken. But maybe it just depends on what ideology you are going to subscribe yourself to.

The long and short is most probably the following: Fox really doesn't like Hymn and Counterbalance.

[Clark Kant]

Does anyone have an updated list that they’re having success with?

I am having pretty great results with the below list but I feel like its doing a bit better with Dark Confidant in the Standstill slot...

Vaka Nought 2.0

16 Lands
4 Wasteland
0 Volrath’s Stronghold

4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
3-4 FoW
3-4 Daze
3-4 Thoughtseize
0-2 Dark Ritual

4 Stifle
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Kroxa
2-3 Torpor Orb
2-3 Lazav, the Multifarious
0-2 Scroll of Fate

3-4 Standstill or Dark Confidant or Delver of Secrets (Delver has worked better for me in this slot)

The key to winning with the above list is to know when to press the gas and when to press the brake. Against combo and control decks, you’re usually better off going slower keeping your mana open your early turns to disrupt your opponents mana development and game plan. Turn 1 Thoughtseize to map out the rest of the game is key. But against fast aggro and burn, speed is the key. Your threats will clock hard and will go the distance, you just have to mulligan aggressively and drop them down asap.

The sideboard is in flux but game one always seems to go well. The deck plays so much disruption and pairs it with an incredibly fast clock. Lazav is an MVP.

Every card in the deck is very powerful on its own and synergies perfectly with the rest of the deck. Theres so many fantastic cards that I wish this deck had room for...
Dark Ritual
Hymn to Tourach
Divert
Lightning Bolt
Fatal Push
Misdirection
Spell Pierce
Pyroblast
Preordain
Reanimate
Hunted Horror
Scroll of Fate
Jace Vyrn’s Prodigy

All are reasonable albeit spicy options.

Once available, some of the Wastelands will be swapped out with Urza’s Saga.

[Fox]

Confidant is played with Petal, and we only play TurboBob + Dreadnought in combo renaissances (Dig Through Time, Breach). Your list has no turn 1 plays [DRS is banned, and Delver isn't there] and you're playing Daze vs an opponent who has time to make land drops and pay the Daze tax on their removal spell. Kroxa's trigger is not only completely invalidated by Uro, but Uro has escape cost 4 (the card it draws ends up in the GY), so you're playing from behind vs the rest of the format. While playing from behind vs Uro, you're also getting wrecked by Wasteland. As with an Uro build, you're asking to get dismantled by yard hate/Surgical.

As a general rule Seize competes with Daze for slots, particularly after the printing of FoN. There are already 10 slots of countermagic accounted for by 6 Force effects and 4 flex slots; so at most you're playing 2 more pieces [this will be Drown in the Loch] for a total of 12 slots. Drown plays nicer with Thoughtseize openers than Daze, but no matter what direction you choose [Daze or Seize], we note that Confidant is getting more and more painful to trigger - so you don't really get the luxury of making 4 lands drops for Kroxa; you have to be close to closing out the game at that point. This isn't the part of the game where you want to try and cash in your value loop, particularly against the card Lightning Bolt.

Here again we run into the problem of the 3rd color in Dreadnought not helping at all - it just locks you into predictably bad situations/play patterns. This problem is compounded by the card Ponder, which can only ever do [insert play pattern] harder. You have to back off this idea of dead'ing your opponent harder with 12/12s, it's not how Dreadnought wins. When it comes to UB Dreadnought [without heavy combo presence] you just play UB Landstill and you add 4 white cards [2x Teferi 3cmc, 1x Sevinnes, 1x Kaya 3cmc], and win more games.

[Clark Kant]

You are correct. Delver is a must play in this list. I swapped the Dark Confidants with Delvers and played 2 test matches and the Delvers were clutch both times at holding back opposing threats or drawing removal or clocking them quickly where as Confidant would have just lost me a ton of life and taken up twice as much mana to achieve the same result.

The deck plays a very low curve so it can shave lands.

Thoughtseize and daze actually supplement each other incredibly well in my experience.

Turn 1 fetch for Underground Sea, Thoughtseize and then Daze their next play is fantastic and actually works here since our curve is so much lower than the Uro/Scroll of Fate/Lazav build which is far more mana intensive.

[FTW]

Here again we run into the problem of the 3rd color in Dreadnought not helping at all - it just locks you into predictably bad situations/play patterns. This problem is compounded by the card Ponder, which can only ever do [insert play pattern] harder. You have to back off this idea of dead'ing your opponent harder with 12/12s, it's not how Dreadnought wins. When it comes to UB Dreadnought [without heavy combo presence] you just play UB Landstill and you add 4 white cards [2x Teferi 3cmc, 1x Sevinnes, 1x Kaya 3cmc], and win more games.

Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?

[Mr. Safety]

Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?

I think you're probably better off playing Shadow if you want a tempo UB list; it doesn't need any extra cards like Stifle to make a big dude, just high velocity and synergy with the mana-base.

[Fox]

Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?

UBw Landstill is better; to the point that using Karn to wish out a Scroll and Dreadnought [just to call the deck Dreadstill] would be an improvement over UB Dreadstill.

The only other conventional CA engine is Confidant, but again this requires heavy combo and Lotus Petals. Mashing up with Reanimator [Grisel being the CA engine], also works...however it uses Petal as well, so again it requires a warped meta.

[Clark Kant]

So are you saying dreadstill is a dead deck and there is no point to trying to make it work any further?

I do not believe that to be the case.

I'm having great results with this list...

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Snow-covered Island
1 Snow-covered Swamp

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Kroxa

2 Standstill/Dark Confidant
2 Standstill/Bonecrusher Giant

4 Stifle
3 Lazav, the Multifarious
2 Torpor Orb
1 Scroll of Fate

Sideboard (work in progress)
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Spell Snare
1 Pithing Needle
1 Misdirection/Divert
2 Plague Engineer
4 Leyline of the Void

Sure it's not a traditional list but it's super low curve and has a plan of attack vs every matchup. It's extremely similar to UR Delver but has a much faster clock that is well protected by Thoughtseize, Daze and FoW and can recoup even if the Dreadnought gets Decayed, thanks to Lazav.

[Fox]

I am saying UB Dreadstill is not competitive as compared to UB-based Landstill currently; it's just a way to win less games. The circumstances are not right for StifleNought, UB or otherwise.

When the goal is to compete using asymmetry [i.e. game actions & Standstill]:
If making UB -> play UBx Landstill
If making UR -> play UR Dreadstill
If making UW -> play UW Dreadstill
If making UW or UWr -> play UW/r Landstill/Standstill only if you're willing to accept the glaring flaw [lack of playable lifegain]

^While these rules can change with new cards, these shifts require multiple new pieces to both be printed and work together. The speed of change is generally measured in years.

[Fox]

On your list you have a lot of cards that can easily fail in series. Your only threat that can stay out of the GY is Dreadnought. With very few kill spells and some yard hate, your opponent can deal with some 12/12s and then reduce you to Kroxa and Lazav (which easily dies to a single Surgical). So when Dreadnought can't get there [or worse, if it is also Surgical'd], Kroxa/Lazav are easy to topple together, and then we're looking at some Torpor Orbs that aren't really doing anything. It's really easy to topple these cards like dominos, using cards that dependably show up in legacy 75s. You're constructing into known interaction.

^So when you run into this wall, Ponder is not going to find you a way out - you don't have the tools to draw into. At this point you're all-in on a 1x Scroll of Fate as your only remaining wincon. This is the classic problem with Ponder: when the plan isn't working, doing the plan harder won't work either.

4x Fetch is not adequate, you need 7-8. Maybe Steam Vents is supposed to be Tarn? When playing cards like Uro/Kroxa, you really can't cut into this pool. Brainstorm is also a poor idea with only 4x Fetch.

Your list can't really count to 20, so direct damage like Bolt or Stomp Giant actively impedes your path to victory. Your list counts to 2, as in it needs two attacks.

Your list lacks ways to ensure Standstill can reliably be cast. You also lack game actions that force opponents to break Standstill. The card you would need is Shark Typhoon (I'm looking real hard at the card Ponder). Even if you swapped into Typhoon, you have so many slots doing the Stifle/Torpor thing, that there really isn't any kill spell that can help both the Standstill half and the Torpor half. In the background, the mana is also unreliable [too soft to Wasteland].

Confidant doesn't have enough distractions to survive, and obviously can't be played with Standstill b/c Shark'nado is 6cmc.

In the board Spell Snare is a waste of a slot. BEB is not good; there is no red card that you should have to kill (Wrenn and DHA are banned). Leyline is pointless; a properly built Dreadnought deck does not need to run to cards like this - we can just race their combo.

So if we take your list and say we want Standstill + Shark'nado, then we need Bolt. If we add Bolt we need to be able to count to 20. Derping with Torpor/big dudes does not count to 20. You need 1-drop threats like Grim Lavamancer, Delver, or even a couple of Ascendant Spirit (these also get into play before a Standstill). Fix up the mana by dropping the black -> you're now UR Dreadstill.

[Tobitzki]

Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?

Hey folks,

I consistently played UB Tempo Stiflenought between DRS ban and Oko takeover. It was totally viable even though I was a relative Legacy newbie. You just have to watch the Swords % in your meta. The deck has very similar strengths and weaknesses as Shadow that way: combo killer, dog to Tundra. One of the major difference being a much stronger UR Delver MU, since you won't get burned out as easily. This new post-Oko/Arcanist meta seems to resemble that period in many ways, and I'm looking forward to sleeving up the good old 12/12s in Legacy again soon (especially as UR is becoming the premier Delver deck again and many lists seem to be cutting MD Borrowers for some reason)

Sidenote: Fox brings a lot of deep and unconventional knowledge to this forum, and I have profited a lot from studying the back pages of "his" Source thread here, but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts. One of them holds that Ponder becomes a bad card as soon as you register a Dreadnought (the flipside of this notion is the automatic pairing of DN with Standstill). I like to think there's more than one legitimate way of playing PhDs (just as Goyf fits both Canadian Thresh and BUG midrange), and for my liking Standstill is too much of a hit-or-miss card and increases the # of potential dead topdecks in a deck that by necessity already runs 4 Stifles and 4 DNs. And Ponder is obviously fantastic here.

Here's my current iteration of UB:

4 Delver
4 Dreadnought
2 Bob
1 Whale
2 Brazen Boi
2 Scroll

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle

3 Thoughtseize
2 Push
1 Drown / Pierce / Divert

4 Wasteland
2 Vista
4 Delta
3 blue fetch
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 U Sea


SB:
1 Torpor Orb
2 Back to Basics
3 TNN
1 Force of Negation
1 Dismember
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
2 Plague Engineer
2 Cage
1 Surgical


PS: Where I agree with Fox is: 3 colors probably not worth it; Scroll is the best permanent enabler out there; Lazav is barely playable (was in and out of my list as a 1-of).

[Clark Kant]

Fox, you are correct that the Steam Vents is meant to be Scalding Tarn. I didnt have any Tarn so I utilize Flooded Strand on mtgo, but my list is otherwise identical. It was typo that I typed in Steam Vents instead of Scalding Tarn. Red is a very light splash, blue and black mana are more important for the deck.

I have honestly never run into the issue that you’re worried about. Yes on occasion my opponent Surgicals my Dreadnought and I am not able to counter the Surgical, but thats a very niche scenario and Kroxa and Bonecrusher are still plenty capable of getting there. They both clock much harder and faster than Delver does. The deck is very fast and aggressive, the game is won or lost long before you have to worry that all your threats get removed.

All 10 cards that combo with the Kroxa and Dreadnought are fantastic in their own way, and I am having difficulty settling on how many of each card I want to play (4 Stifle is set in stone but the distribution of the other 6 slots is still up in the air).

1-2 Scroll of Fate - Slow but great midgame at turning extra lands and Dazes into 2/2s.

1-3 Torpor Orb - Beats a ton of decks on its own, requires the least mana to combo, plop it down once and its useful all game.

2-3 Lazav - Not only enables the combo but reanimates any Dreadnoughts or Kroxas that your opponent managed to kill earlier. Its essentially a one card combo midgame as you usually already have a Dreadnoght or Kroxa in your yard by then. Its even solid when used to copy a Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant in your yard. Even just as a 1/3 it has value at stopping Goblin Lackeys, Confidants, Young Pyromancers, Snapcasters, Thalias and similar threats from being able to attack you.

4 Stifle - Super versatile, amazing against storm, I use them as 1cc sinkhole on turn one/two whenever I get the opportunity since the deck has 9 other cards that enable the combo and plenty of cantrips to find them.

[FTW]

Scroll of Fate and Stifle are already known quantities in Dreadstill, the best enablers.

Lazav: what does it do the rest of the time, when you don't have a fatty in the GY or they exiled your fatty with GY hate (which will always come in vs an Escape Uro or Kroxa deck)? Lazav is a 1/3 a lot of the time. Sure it can enable Dreadnought or Kroxa in the perfect scenario. The question is would any other enabler (e.g. Vision Charm, more Scroll of Fate, Illusionary Mask, Karn, the Great Creator) also be able to do the same thing? The big difference with the other enablers is that Scroll and Karn don't suck when you don't have the other combo piece ready, while Lazav and some other enablers do.

Lazav + activate = 2UB + 1 card to make a Kroxa (without the ETB trigger). Is that better than paying RRBB and 0 cards to make a Kroxa with the ETB trigger? Lazav does let you both and get 2 Kroxas, but that seems win-more.

With Lazav + Uro it's even worse.
Lazav + activate = 3UB + 1 card (Lazav) to copy the Uro in your graveyard without the ETB trigger (missed draw and lifegain).
Escaping Uro is just UUGG and you get the ETB trigger
Escaping is better: you're ahead +2 cards +3 life +1 mana
Lazav does let you do both and have 2 Uros for 9 mana (-1 ETB trigger) without having to escape as many cards, but again is that win-more?

If they have StP or Surgical/Faerie/Leyline you're never getting Uro or Kroxa to the graveyard for Lazav to use. If they have Karakas, it stops the escaped ones and Lazav too. If they just have regular removal, just escaping Uro is enough to win the game without needing the Lazav copy.

What scenarios does it help you win that aren't win-more? How bad is it compared to another Scroll of Fate or Karn when you don't have a fatty in the GY?

[Mr. Safety]

My personal opinion is that Lazav is a commander card for fun combos, not a legacy playable threat. Scroll of Fate is just a much better card, period.

If anyone is interested, I'm trying to develop a mono-blue list that cuts Delver. Flipping Delver in Dreadstill has always been a challenge, to the point where it isn't a reliable early-pressure threat. I would rather focus on controlling turns 1-2 and slamming a Standstill. Daze/Wasteland are counterproductive to hitting 2 mana on turn 2, as we all know already, so I'm trying to find a way to mitigate that. One way is Lotus Petal, another is to cut Daze. I'm not exactly sure how to tackle it, but this is my first attempt.

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Brazen Borrower
4x Scroll of Fate

3x Lotus Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Dismember
4x Standstill
2x Spell Snare

3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
6x Island
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Urza's Saga (when it becomes available)

Sideboard
2x Force of Negation
2x Spell Pierce
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Torpor Orb
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Surgical Extraction

[kombatkiwi]

I consistently played UB Tempo Stiflenought between DRS ban and Oko takeover. It was totally viable even though I was a relative Legacy newbie. You just have to watch the Swords % in your meta. The deck has very similar strengths and weaknesses as Shadow that way: combo killer, dog to Tundra. One of the major difference being a much stronger UR Delver MU, since you won't get burned out as easily. This new post-Oko/Arcanist meta seems to resemble that period in many ways, and I'm looking forward to sleeving up the good old 12/12s in Legacy again soon (especially as UR is becoming the premier Delver deck again and many lists seem to be cutting MD Borrowers for some reason)

Sidenote: Fox brings a lot of deep and unconventional knowledge to this forum, and I have profited a lot from studying the back pages of "his" Source thread here, but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts. One of them holds that Ponder becomes a bad card as soon as you register a Dreadnought (the flipside of this notion is the automatic pairing of DN with Standstill). I like to think there's more than one legitimate way of playing PhDs (just as Goyf fits both Canadian Thresh and BUG midrange), and for my liking Standstill is too much of a hit-or-miss card and increases the # of potential dead topdecks in a deck that by necessity already runs 4 Stifles and 4 DNs. And Ponder is obviously fantastic here.


This is a good post I think

The part in bold is something that I have always been really curious about

Like if Dreadnought was a good card by itself as a big threat in a deck with stifle then why would it not be successful in a more generic kind of delver/tempo deck without standstill?
If standstill was a good card by itself in a kind of stifle/tempo deck (with e.g. Factory, presumably, but not necessarily), why do we not see people having success with this kind of strategy without dreadnought?
What is the perfect confluence of factors that makes these cards necessarily pair with each other, in 2021?

At this point the most realistic explanation is that those cards were simply the best options available at the time in terms of cheap threats and cheap card draw (this is like pre-delver, mind, years and years and years ago) and a post-hoc rationalization was made to justify that the deck was built with some kind of special synergy.

Like, there is obviously some kind of sensible idea that "If my big threat effectively makes me discard a card when it ETB then I want to have some kind of extra card advantage source in the deck" but in so many years of printings is Standstill really the best option? Why not try expressive iteration or etc etc

But ultimately I think Dreadnought is just not a playable card (it's basically blue pox in the sense that people get a nostalgia buzz out of doing something old/cool that mostly sucks)
Your assessment of the deck as "worse shadow" is basically in line with my assessment, I don't even think the Shadow matchup vs UR is bad


but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts.

To me what it looks like is his analysis is founded on a densely interlocked web of rigid heuristics

Some of them are correct, and admittedly not trivial either, but a lot of them seem to be misguided and/or wrong, and when every new idea has to be filtered through this web of half-nonsense it's mostly a crapshoot whether his take on things is going to actually be useful or not. (Also the posts are near-inscrutable which doesn't help either)

[Fox]

So your list has some problems @Mr.Safety. Cards like Dismember and other black removal have this issue with not advancing Dreadnought's plans. At 2cmc you get some options (Easy Prey and Drown in the Loch), but these have some early game tension with Standstill, as well as being susceptible to Daze and poor vs a go-wide deck like Elves.

I've never seen a convincing argument from the mono-U camp as to why what they are doing is better than 4x Tarn, 4x Vista, 1x Mountain + 4x Bolt and 3x SB Blasts. Even if you don't own a dual, this has to be a straight-up improvement; particularly if you're adding Standstill.

In terms of Standstill in your list, you're missing 3x Shark'nado. We can change the numbers a little, down to 2x Shark'nado, but it has to be there.

I'd suggest going with UR Dreadstill, especially b/c the mana is getting a huge boost:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
5x Island
1x Volc
2x Mountain
3x Wasteland
2x Saga

Finally we have a 2x manland that can replace Factory, so we're going to be doing that. In terms of the second Mountain [previously a Factory], it could also be a dual, a Fling-land, or copy #1 of 2 of Spikefield Hazard.

I'm terms of the fixed slots:
4x BS
4x FoW
4x Bolt
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
3x Nought
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Scroll of Fate
2-3x Shark'nado
2x TNN

There's a decision fork at this point where we say 4x Daze or non-Daze build. Either path may use Delver, but in general we want to replace this card entirely b/c it's harder to flip, and it hurts itself [i.e. Delver reveal Delver = no transform]. If Daze build, Delver is getting 3x slots at most. In non-Daze the Delver slots are going down to 2x, so the card in those slots has to have a better late game; the Ascendant Spirit has performed pretty well here (just be sure lands are swapped to snow).

The biggest difference between the two directions is whether or not 2x FoN are in the list. I prefer the non-Daze build since Oko has been banned, as FoN is a far better card vs Loam, Sol lands, Vial, and combo.

When going non-Daze, non-Delver the Shark'nado goes to 3x. I also prefer 2x Karn in the non-Daze build, which manipulates the 3rd copy of Scroll and Nought to the board.

Brazen Borrower should pretty much always be swapped to Mystic Reflection at this point. It's just a better card offensively and defensively. This is even more true with Urza's Saga being printed [pull out a Dreadnought as the best non-legend dude on board or even pull out Nought and turn a 0/0 cycle Shark into a Dreadnought token that eats the one we just tutored].

[FTW]

The part in bold is something that I have always been really curious about

Like if Dreadnought was a good card by itself as a big threat in a deck with stifle then why would it not be successful in a more generic kind of delver/tempo deck without standstill?
If standstill was a good card by itself in a kind of stifle/tempo deck (with e.g. Factory, presumably, but not necessarily), why do we not see people having success with this kind of strategy without dreadnought?
What is the perfect confluence of factors that makes these cards necessarily pair with each other, in 2021?

At this point the most realistic explanation is that those cards were simply the best options available at the time in terms of cheap threats and cheap card draw (this is like pre-delver, mind, years and years and years ago) and a post-hoc rationalization was made to justify that the deck was built with some kind of special synergy.

Like, there is obviously some kind of sensible idea that "If my big threat effectively makes me discard a card when it ETB then I want to have some kind of extra card advantage source in the deck" but in so many years of printings is Standstill really the best option? Why not try expressive iteration or etc etc

I have very little experience playing this archetype, playing UWx Landstill more back in the day, but my understanding of this from 10ish years ago was that Dreadnought + Standstill fit together well. One part is that you need card draw to compensate for the card disadvantage spending 2 cards to trade with Plow. But playing aggressive Standstill also demands curving out a cheap threat into early Standstill. Dreadnought is card disadvantage but extreme mana efficiency. What faster clock could you produce while still landing an early Standstill? Legacy still has yet to produce anything bigger for 2 mana (not including Reanimate strategies). Curving early threat into Standstill leads to wins. It forces the opponent to break Standstill immediately or lose. This was a strategic shift from Landstill, which would drop an early Standstill but could still lose from lack of pressure, letting the opponent topdeck for 8 turns until they sculpt a hand good enough to win after breaking Standstill. The way UW Landstill lost was by playing T2 Standstill with no threat but Mishra's Factory, getting Factory wasted, then topdecking 15 turns desperately looking for Decree of Justice so you aren't forced to break your own Standstill (-4 cards).

Granted Landstill has shored up that weakness with newer cards: T3feri makes it harder for the opponent to crack Standstill and win, because you still control the stack, while Sharknado is a much better cycling threat.

[kombatkiwi]

I have very little experience playing this archetype, playing UWx Landstill more back in the day, but my understanding of this from 10ish years ago was that Dreadnought + Standstill fit together well. One part is that you need card draw to compensate for the card disadvantage spending 2 cards to trade with Plow. But playing aggressive Standstill also demands curving out a cheap threat into early Standstill. Dreadnought is card disadvantage but extreme mana efficiency. What faster clock could you produce while still landing an early Standstill? Legacy still has yet to produce anything bigger for 2 mana (not including Reanimate strategies). Curving early threat into Standstill leads to wins. It forces the opponent to break Standstill immediately or lose. This was a strategic shift from Landstill, which would drop an early Standstill but could still lose from lack of pressure, letting the opponent topdeck for 8 turns until they sculpt a hand good enough to win after breaking Standstill. The way UW Landstill lost was by playing T2 Standstill with no threat but Mishra's Factory, getting Factory wasted, then topdecking 15 turns desperately looking for Decree of Justice so you aren't forced to break your own Standstill (-4 cards).

Granted Landstill has shored up that weakness with newer cards: T3feri makes it harder for the opponent to crack Standstill and win, because you still control the stack, while Sharknado is a much better cycling threat.

This makes sense but surely there are better 1drop threats now right
You can't even play early dreadnought + stifle that reliably compared to just casting Delver of Secrets or whatever other standalone card and you cant do the curve of turn1 threat turn2 standstill with nought either.
I ~suppose~ you could make the argument that dreadnought is the only creature that's large and cheap enough to be meaningfully threatening both on turn 2 and also when your opponent cracks your standstill on an empty-ish board on like turn 6 but I don't find that entirely convincing

[Mr. Safety]

So your list has some problems @Mr.Safety. Cards like Dismember and other black removal have this issue with not advancing Dreadnought's plans. At 2cmc you get some options (Easy Prey and Drown in the Loch), but these have some early game tension with Standstill, as well as being susceptible to Daze and poor vs a go-wide deck like Elves.

I've never seen a convincing argument from the mono-U camp as to why what they are doing is better than 4x Tarn, 4x Vista, 1x Mountain + 4x Bolt and 3x SB Blasts. Even if you don't own a dual, this has to be a straight-up improvement; particularly if you're adding Standstill.

In terms of Standstill in your list, you're missing 3x Shark'nado. We can change the numbers a little, down to 2x Shark'nado, but it has to be there.

I'd suggest going with UR Dreadstill, especially b/c the mana is getting a huge boost:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
5x Island
1x Volc
2x Mountain
3x Wasteland
2x Saga

Finally we have a 2x manland that can replace Factory, so we're going to be doing that. In terms of the second Mountain [previously a Factory], it could also be a dual, a Fling-land, or copy #1 of 2 of Spikefield Hazard.

I'm terms of the fixed slots:
4x BS
4x FoW
4x Bolt
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
3x Nought
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Scroll of Fate
2-3x Shark'nado
2x TNN

There's a decision fork at this point where we say 4x Daze or non-Daze build. Either path may use Delver, but in general we want to replace this card entirely b/c it's harder to flip, and it hurts itself [i.e. Delver reveal Delver = no transform]. If Daze build, Delver is getting 3x slots at most. In non-Daze the Delver slots are going down to 2x, so the card in those slots has to have a better late game; the Ascendant Spirit has performed pretty well here (just be sure lands are swapped to snow).

The biggest difference between the two directions is whether or not 2x FoN are in the list. I prefer the non-Daze build since Oko has been banned, as FoN is a far better card vs Loam, Sol lands, Vial, and combo.

When going non-Daze, non-Delver the Shark'nado goes to 3x. I also prefer 2x Karn in the non-Daze build, which manipulates the 3rd copy of Scroll and Nought to the board.

Brazen Borrower should pretty much always be swapped to Mystic Reflection at this point. It's just a better card offensively and defensively. This is even more true with Urza's Saga being printed [pull out a Dreadnought as the best non-legend dude on board or even pull out Nought and turn a 0/0 cycle Shark into a Dreadnought token that eats the one we just tutored].

Mystic Reflection has some problems of its own, especially that it only works alongside Dreadnought to be truly valuable. I think it's a trap card that gives a high ceiling but a low enough floor that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'd rather jam Spell Pierce/Divert, or honestly, just play Brazen Borrowers. Without Delver the deck needs some amount of secondary threats. Borrower provides card advantage + tempo and fills the threat slots the deck needs. The next possible threat would be TNN, which I'm not discounting. Brazen Borrower will likely never leave my Dreadstill list, regardless of color configurations, as a catch-all answer + threat. The primary reasons it is good are 1) it puts threats back to hand where countermagic can deal with them, especially important without hard removal options like Swords to Plowshares, and 2) it answers Marit Lage in the cleanest possible way for any iteration of Dreadstill.

Dismember dodges Chalice of the Void and is a hard removal for 1 mana, at the obvious coast of 4 life. It hits all of the fair threats being played in the format currently. I don't understand the tension with Standstill; in order for Standstill to be good we have to clear the board and resolve it, we can't play Standstill while behind. Cracking Standstill into free countermagic or cheap removal is the name of the game, no? As far as not advancing Dreadstill's plans...this I don't understand. I've heard the arguments a hundred times about 'you need bolt to count to 20'. Well if this is the case, there can really be no discussion about anything besides UR Dreadstill.

My plan is to:
1) Disrupt early, land Standstill with neutral board or ahead on board
2) Disrupt early, get a Dreadnought onto the board, protect it for 2 hits
3) Play to a mid-game where I can leverage Scroll of Fate to turn extra cards into manifest tokens

Whether I play a Lightning Bolt to deal with the first threat and then jam Standstill or a Dismember to deal with the first threat, then jam Standstill, makes little difference in my opinion. The lifeloss is definitely a consideration in a burn-heavy metagame, but beyond that the hard removal is necessary without Swords to Plowshares or Fatal Push. My experience with Standstill is you have to deal with the first threat on board as a necessity, then play out Standstill. In my limited experience the worst card to see for a Standstill deck is a resolved Aether Vial.

Elves I haven't played against with Dreadstill yet...I imagine the uphill battled against Allosaurus Shepherd is significant. At this point, any sort of removal is absolutely crucial. In this sense Dismember has the nice text, for supporting Dreadstill's plans, of 'don't die.' Bouncing a Shepherd so I can counter Natural Order seems pretty decent to me as well, another point in favor of Borrower.

What's the tradeoff for mono-blue? Budgetary reasons and resistance to Wasteland and Blood Moon. If I had Volcanic Islands I'm pretty sure the play is just go deep into UR Delver, which overall is just a more reliable deck. At the end of the day, we're talking about a tier 2.5-3 deck regardless of which setup we are playing. If I want to play Dreadnought, it's 90%+ a blue deck, so why mess around with options that give me a slight edge when I know the main parts of the deck are going to be either good or bad regardless of the splash color? Does a red splash *truly* take the deck from 2.5 to 2.0+ with a better percentage against the metagame? I'm skeptical.

To sum up, kombatkiwi does it nicely:


But ultimately I think Dreadnought is just not a playable card (it's basically blue pox in the sense that people get a nostalgia buzz out of doing something old/cool that mostly sucks)

I'm definitely in the camp of 'this is my blue pox deck that I play because I think it's fun'.

[Fox]

Like if Dreadnought was a good card by itself as a big threat in a deck with stifle then why would it not be successful in a more generic kind of delver/tempo deck without standstill?
If standstill was a good card by itself in a kind of stifle/tempo deck (with e.g. Factory, presumably, but not necessarily), why do we not see people having success with this kind of strategy without dreadnought?
UR Standstill/Landstill can't beat combo [particularly GY-based] to save its life. It also really struggles to count to 20; which is a problem when you run Bolt. So while you could play some kind of UR Delver w/ Standstill, you have some significant problems with Chalice, and just like UR Delver the deck is completely unplayable vs DRS/Oko/Uro/Klothys/Cling-levels of lifegain. Standstill might feel cool in such a list, but Delver and Daze don't exactly play nicely with 7 enchantments (Standstill + Shark'nado), and you can't slow down b/c you're on the crappiest color combo vs Goyf. You just can't afford to play a card that will extend a game [Standstill] when you don't have a solution to the Goyf problem, and are sitting on Bolts you can't reliably pressure with...and also sit there drawing dead soft permission [Daze]...and also have >20 lands to further boost dead draws. This gameplan has too many holes to overcome. This Blue Moon-style of deck just isn't competitive - just play UR Delver or SnS or Dreadstill and take the higher win %.

On the flip side [Delver + Dreadnought, no Standstill], you don't get to pick a spot; if Nought is in your hand and you can make it, you have to - you don't have a late game. If you want to play linear without any comeback mechanism or inevitability, play DS and stop 2-for-1'ing yourself. Also accept DS's complete inability to handle Chalice, and like I dunno...tell yourself you have game vs it b/c of Brazen Borrower. Also accept your unavoidable losses to Vial, Plow, Counterbalance, and Delver decks with Bolt.

Both paths have either no meaningful asymmetry [StifleNought] or no effective asymmetry [UR Standstill/Landstill]. This is something of a problem since effective asymmetry is the wincon. If you had to choose one of those, you should recognize that Scroll of Fate by itself is more likely to win through dubious construction. In Dreadstill we have the tools to race combo and still have late game inevitability. If you only have one tempo reservoir [Dreadnought or Standstill], you have locked yourself into one speed of play. No matter how skilled a pilot is, they can't turn skill into win % outside of that speed the deck is locked into.


What is the perfect confluence of factors that makes these cards necessarily pair with each other, in 2021?
The difference is Standstill and Dreadstill have a strategy - most legacy decks don't. One way to tell if your deck doesn't really have a strategy is if a 1-card combo [power creep] invalidates your deck. If cards like DTT, DRS, Breach, Lurrus, DHA, Plague Engi, DRS, Shepherd, Muxus, and Uro are sending you to frown-town, it generally means you're playing mono 1-card combos yourself...so when they print a better one card combo, there's nothing really hiding behind your pile that insures continued relevance.

So unlike your typical legacy deck, Standstill and Dreadstill are much less affected by change. Sometimes cards are ridiculous enough to affect our color selections or force us towards Dreadstill or Standstill/Landstill [ex. Oko, Wrenn], but these cards don't send our winrate below losses, and these cards get themselves banned. This is to be expected from decks that existed in entirely old-border and have maintained relevance while doing basically the same things as always [Standstill/Landstill, Dreadstill, Goblins, Elves].


At this point the most realistic explanation is that those cards were simply the best options available at the time in terms of cheap threats and cheap card draw (this is like pre-delver, mind, years and years and years ago) and a post-hoc rationalization was made to justify that the deck was built with some kind of special synergy.
So these decks average 70-75% winrates in competent hands. That's why we play them. We also get more tools more frequently, and that makes us the best Teferi [3 and/or 5cmc], TNN, Azcanta, manland, and/or Shark'nado users in the format, depending on our build.


Why not try expressive iteration or etc etc
Card is trash. Here today, gone tomorrow...like AK, Predict, Night's Whisper, Ancestral Visions, JTMS, Painful Truths. If I'm spending 2+ mana to cantrip, I'm going to enforce asymmetry [Standstill] or have lategame [Shark'nado, Azcanta] or react/control [SCM]; I'm going to get on-board and push a gameplan/enact a strategy. Blind value obviously works in magic, I just don't find it interesting or skill-intensive. I also don't like the tendency of blind value strats find themselves spinning their wheels trying to draw effects they don't have access to because they failed to enact a strategy b/c they wanted tap out and jammy jam Uro-types.


But ultimately I think Dreadnought is just not a playable card (it's basically blue pox in the sense that people get a nostalgia buzz out of doing something old/cool that mostly sucks)
People can keep thinking that all they want b/c they still lose to Dreadstill and Standstill/Landstill - especially if they're on tier 2 (that's like 85% or higher losing to Dreadstill). The main thing is that decks with Standstill lack dedicated pilots. Every so often we have more tourists than usual, but very few of them stick with the deck. They aren't leaving b/c they're bleeding money.


Your assessment of the deck as "worse shadow" is basically in line with my assessment, I don't even think the Shadow matchup vs UR is bad
When it comes to StifleNought, yes. A pilot is better off playing Infect or Shadow; these are the exact same thing as StifleNought with less 2-for-1s, and a slightly different weak-to-X profile. I would however never want to be playing Infect or Shadow or StifleNought vs Dreadstill; this is a mirror these decks didn't come ready to play.

[FTW]

This makes sense but surely there are better 1drop threats now right
You can't even play early dreadnought + stifle that reliably compared to just casting Delver of Secrets or whatever other standalone card and you cant do the curve of turn1 threat turn2 standstill with nought either.
I ~suppose~ you could make the argument that dreadnought is the only creature that's large and cheap enough to be meaningfully threatening both on turn 2 and also when your opponent cracks your standstill on an empty-ish board on like turn 6 but I don't find that entirely convincing

Are there actually better threats that synergize this much with this plan?

Dreadnought is a 2-turn clock. What other 1-drop or 2-drop comes close?
Delver is a 7-turn clock if it even flips right away. (and you can't use cantrips to flip it if you curve T1 Delver T2 Standstill)
Goblin Guide is a 10-turn clock.
The difference between 2 turns and 7-10 turns is huge.

With a 2-turn clock the opponent is forced to desperately crack Standstill immediately, even with just a cantrip, in an attempt to not die. That creates a game state where either Dreadnought wins (they whiff, or Standstill draws you answers) or they kill it but leave you ahead in cards, which sets you up to eventually deploy further threats from a more winning position.

If you give them 7 turns, there is no imminent pressure to crack Standstill. They have more time to draw out of it and sculpt a better position to break Standstill. With a Standstill in play, there is a huge difference between "this 2/2 or 3/3 might kill me someday" vs "I am dead next turn if I do nothing".

There are other clocks that could threaten a quick kill, but they typically involve more investment. Relatively speaking Dreadnought is very small investment for a 2-turn clock (2 mana + 2 cards), which allows the deck to rebound and establish subsequent threats even if the first one or two are removed, unlike more all-in decks that will run out gas if disrupted. A 2nd wind of 12/12 is relevant at any stage of the game. Most other "turn 1 creatures" look bad on turn 8.


UR Standstill/Landstill can't beat combo [particularly GY-based] to save its life. It also really struggles to count to 20; which is a problem when you run Bolt.

Even more simply, Landstill is control and red cards don't help that plan. Red cards do help count from 12 to 20.

[kombatkiwi]

The difference is Standstill and Dreadstill have a strategy - most legacy decks don't

I think everything you said prior to this sentence mostly made sense and everything afterwards mostly didn't, but I respect the effort


Relatively speaking Dreadnought is very small investment for a 2-turn clock (2 mana + 2 cards), which allows the deck to rebound and establish subsequent threats even if the first one or two are removed, unlike more all-in decks that will run out gas if disrupted.

It's very hard for me to get on board in legacy with the idea of playing a Drekavac that requires you to discard a card with a specific name, even if it is very large

[FTW]

It's very hard for me to get on board in legacy with the idea of playing a Drekavac that requires you to discard a card with a specific name, even if it is very large

See above about 7-turn clock vs 2-turn clock with Standstill.

In a vacuum the Drekavac is not great no matter the size (which I assume is why Stiflenought is not a Tier deck without Standstill).

[Mr. Safety]

See above about 7-turn clock vs 2-turn clock with Standstill.

Often I have heard the criticism for mono-blue being that it isn't fast enough because you can't get there with one PD hit, you need a Bolt + Delver hit as well. I am convinced the difference between how viable UR Dreadstill and U-Dreadstill are in the metagame is negligible. Of course there is Pyroblast, etc, but that is metagame dependant (I am thinking mostly of your comments about go-wide strategies like Elves.)

[Fox]

Mystic Reflection has some problems of its own, especially that it only works alongside Dreadnought to be truly valuable.
Oh no, this is the backup mode. All this turning things like Dreadnought and 0/0 Sharks into things like an army of TNNs, acting like a pseudo-Stifle for Dreadnought, copying Dreadnoughts with Scroll [there are mechanics at work here], and having text with Urza's Saga stage 3 trigger - this is all bonus.


[Brazen Borrower] answers Marit Lage in the cleanest possible way for any iteration of Dreadstill.
To understand why we play Reflection, we look at Brazen Borrower and note that the only reason it sees play in legacy is that it is a maindeck card vs Depths. Now I'm sure you can find the V. Clique-style opinion that Brazen is a good enough card to see such widespread play on its own...but it's the anti-Depths card in the decks whose pilots would make such claims. We note that Brazen Borrower loses to discard [Duress became IoK], Veil, Olle Rade, NotW, and Sejiri Steppe...so really not a very reliable answer to Depths, since you're playing into all of their protections. For many decks Brazen may be the best answer they have to Depths - but that does not mean it's reliable (well, other than reliably able to be countered by cards in Depths). Meanwhile, every single one of those protections in Depths can't stop Marit Lage from entering as a meaningless 1/1 or 2/2 when we're targeting our own guy; they also can't discard face-down exiles. Depths can't adapt to an attack on this axis, which makes Reflection the cleanest possible answer.


Bouncing a Shepherd so I can counter Natural Order seems pretty decent to me as well, another point in favor of Borrower.
You have named 2 spells that are not allowed to do what they say. Both however are allowed to duplicate a 1/1 currently on board. There will be none of this letting Elves cast a Shepherd and turning their team into 5/5s while killing ourselves b/c Brazen Borrower was not called Mystic Reflection. We also take the hard pass on NO/GSZ or Hoof-from-hand happening and leaving ourselves with a bounce effect that will never change the fact that we're dead b/c we let something enter as not a harmless 1/1.

We will also take the hard pass on letting PWs or Uros entering the battlefield as printed...but we will definitely let them enter as a self-killing 12/12 or an unflippable textless 2/2. Also hard pass on bouncing Thassa; not allowed to enter as printed.


in order for Standstill to be good we have to clear the board and resolve it, we can't play Standstill while behind...My experience with Standstill is you have to deal with the first threat on board as a necessity, then play out Standstill.
It is routinely correct to slam Standstills into opposing creatures from behind. See also: Shark'nado.


I've heard the arguments a hundred times about 'you need bolt to count to 20'. Well if this is the case, there can really be no discussion about anything besides UR Dreadstill.
You must have a strategy that everything works towards, yes. In the case of UR Dreadstill the combo is everything working together for counting to 20 (while having the tools to enforce a speed of the game most favorable to this counting to 20).
UW Dreadstill has a different combo, where it adapts its play patterns to the opponent's decks. It finds weak points of construction and unravels the opponent's deck until they can't play magic - we play total mana denial, win by mill, and total stack control. Sometimes we even kill people with 12/12s. It's an overarching combo, but it plays very differently than UR Dreadstill. UR kills people dead, UW is more about methodically shutting opponents out of the game.
UW/r Standstill/Landstill is about pursuing an endgame of outdrawing opponents 7 to 1 while exiling opponent's mana base. UBw Landstill is about playing like UW/r, except fixing the lifegain problem.


In my limited experience the worst card to see for a Standstill deck is a resolved Aether Vial.
These are tedious matchups, but pretty easily winnable. We got Vista vs Port/Waste, FoN x2, PWs that stop Vial, and opponents playing Trix Magus (i.e. no longer able to generate CA with Flickerwisp b/c they're too busy dealing with donated illusions).


If I want to play Dreadnought, it's 90%+ a blue deck, so why mess around with options that give me a slight edge when I know the main parts of the deck are going to be either good or bad regardless of the splash color?
The cost has never been lower, you have 8 perfect Fetches, and optimal dual amount is going down to 1x once Urza's Saga is out. You can play a unified combo (count to 20), rather than going all-in on 2 Dreadnought hits/not getting Surgical'd/hoping Scroll gets there. It's also important to recognize the Delver and Daze don't exactly play nicely with Standstill + Shark'nado + Scroll of Fate; lots of not-flipping there, and the increased incentive to stop picking up lands.

[Mr. Safety]

To understand why we play Reflection, we look at Brazen Borrower and note that the only reason it sees play in legacy is that it is a maindeck card vs Depths. Now I'm sure you can find the V. Clique-style opinion that Brazen is a good enough card to see such widespread play on its own...but it's the anti-Depths card in the decks whose pilots would make such claims. We note that Brazen Borrower loses to discard [Duress became IoK], Veil, Olle Rade, NotW, and Sejiri Steppe...so really not a very reliable answer to Depths, since you're playing into all of their protections. For many decks Brazen may be the best answer they have to Depths - but that does not mean it's reliable (well, other than reliably able to be countered by cards in Depths). Meanwhile, every single one of those protections in Depths can't stop Marit Lage from entering as a meaningless 1/1 or 2/2 when we're targeting our own guy; they also can't discard face-down exiles. Depths can't adapt to an attack on this axis, which makes Reflection the cleanest possible answer.

First off, I haven't seen any lists with Mystic Reflection. I see decks playing Brazen Borrower main/side all the time, it's a legacy staple at this point. Regardless of the specific reason we play it (Depths) there are general reasons (tempo, card advantage.) As far as I can tell, all your points about MR are theoretical, because I don't see anyone playing the card at all. I get where you are coming from, if you get it down with Foretell t1 it can be a very clean answer...provided you have a creature to target. As a longtime Depths player, the only creatures that typically enter the battlefield are Vampire Hexmage and Marit Lage, and Hexmage is maybe 50% of the time at that. So you have a narrow window where you can make Marit Lage into a Vampire Hexmage. Sylvan Safekeeper is seen in sideboards, but that isn't a clean answer because it can give itself shroud. Most Depths lists play *1* copy of the elf-tutor, so that is your only other target. So you have to have a creature on your side of the board to target, which means Delver if you want to do it in enough time to count. Overall, I think this is an unreliable plan. With a Depths player's perspective, I would rather just play Brazen Borrower for the extended utility in other matchups and cross my fingers against Depths. It won't ever be a good matchup, but Mystic Reflection doesn't solve that, not by a long shot. If your plan is to make a Scroll of Fate token turn 4 to use Mystic Reflection to beat depths, I give you a hearty 'good luck with that'. You can skip all of the above text if you want and just read this: Brazen Borrower isn't a perfect answer to Marit Lage, but it's better than Mystic Reflection. It's a minimum of a two-card combo or relies on magical christmasland. Brazen Borrower is a one-card combo of bounce spell + flying blocker (aren't you always using that term?)


You have named 2 spells that are not allowed to do what they say. Both however are allowed to duplicate a 1/1 currently on board. There will be none of this letting Elves cast a Shepherd and turning their team into 5/5s while killing ourselves b/c Brazen Borrower was not called Mystic Reflection. We also take the hard pass on NO/GSZ or Hoof-from-hand happening and leaving ourselves with a bounce effect that will never change the fact that we're dead b/c we let something enter as not a harmless 1/1.

Well, Borrower is a reasonable plan during an Elves players' combo turn. Having Mystic Reflection available t1-2, without doing anything else (like Daze, Wasteland on Cradle) to fight a Shepherd seems like magical christmasland again to me. If I have a Borrower in hand, I will 100% keep my lands untapped and avoid using Daze so I can have Force of Will/Negation/Daze available to counter NO/Hoof from hand. I might even bounce it to Force a Glimpse of Nature. I haven't played Elves in a long time, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I don't think Mystic Reflection is very good in that matchup.


Regarding the viability of mono-blue Dreadstill, to be honest, other than janky lists like a mono-black list or the BW list ThrabenU did a league with, mono blue is the only other Dreadnought deck to make any results in the past 6 months (edit: I used mtgtop8 data, which doesn't count all events. I'll look further.) If you go back a little further Rood Hannigan has a result with UR Dreadstill (and he's playing Dismember in his sideboard...curious why he would do that, Dismember doesn't work towards the Dreadstill plan...sorry, I couldn't resist, just bad attempt at a joke.)

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27663&d=419733&f=LE


https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=29113&d=429315&f=LE

And we even have the illustrious Rood playing UR Dreadstill, however it's from August of 2020. Splashing red for only 3 maindeck Bolts and 4 sideboard cards. The cost is low, yes, but the gain is also negligible (IMHO.) Oh, and what is that in the sideboard? Dismember? Get outta here!

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24789&d=373481&f=LE

The bigger issue for me, and worth discussing, is whether Standstill is better than Delver. All of those lists are Delver lists that play Stifle-Nought, not really Dreadstill.

[Fox]

The ceiling on linear StifleNought is lower than Dreadstill. So while it's harder to punt, the trade-off is that you can't get out of a bad situation or change the gameplan. The only solution to a problem becomes throwing more bodies at the opponent and hoping they run out of the answers you know their list has.

The mono-U StifleNought stuff literally can't beat an Ensnaring Bridge, and when you pair that with combat step + dudes is the only wincon, you end up saying "Brazen is the card for me." If you're on that mono-U stuff, you have deckbuilt yourself into this corner, and there is no escape.

Decks with Standstill are playing a fundamentally different game. We do not care about the same cards/disaster scenarios as mono-U. We move around problems, b/c we pick fights on different and more numerous axes. When it comes to Dreadstill, this is a concept people really struggle with: we don't actually need to make Dreadnoughts.

Here's the decision-making tree for Brazen in decks with Standstill: if Depths-type [multiple card sequence] leave in -> if I would bring in flash bear [i.e. C Priest vs a deck that isn't hurt by the passive] leave in -> if anything else board out.

On Rood's Dismember use, I always give him a hard time about that. At the end of the day though, Goyf is a huge problem for UR color set. It takes 6 damage to kill it, and 7 damage if you want to be sure it dies. This is why DHA saw success in Dever decks; it passed the Goyf test [Bolt, recast Bolt]. With Oko gone, it's harder to get Goyf up to 6 toughness. Obviously you need to get enchants and artifacts out of your yard to keep Goyf below 6, which means Lavamancer is there, which then means Lavaman + Bolt & ability to make 12/12s & TNN & Reflection [change or copy duty] represents enough anti-Goyf tools. Urza's Saga and Relic will add additional anti-Goyf to postboard games. Note that Dismember does one thing, whereas the anti-Goyf build direction has more ways to be played. You also really don't want to invest Dismember's lose 4 life to Goyf when it's primarily played with Bolt.

In terms of why we see more mono-U than Dreadstill, it's because it's a harder deck to play. There are not a lot of Standstill pilots, and even fewer whose range includes Dreadstill. There's like 10 people that have enough hours on UR Dreadstill to play at expert level and above, and we're mostly paper players. Of these Dreadstill players, exactly 5 have enough hours on UW Dreadstill to use the deck effectively.

The majority of people playing mono-U StifleNought are mostly just passing through, playing the deck like normal legacy, and hitting some good matchups [leagues skew towards combo]. If a player isn't going to put in the hours, this is a good way to go....but even if they omit Standstills, they really need to be playing 4 Tarn, 4 Vista, 1 Mountain, 4 Bolt, and SB REBS. That's like 5-10% free winrate; just take it. Make decks that don't care about removal discard their blue cards to a kill spell that can be pointed at them. Also note that decks which don't care about Daze and Dismember are mostly decks weak to Pyroblast.
--
Edit: let's really pin down Dismember...
-How many decks don't care that you topdeck'd Dismember: most...and if you forgot a list with Counterbalance or Hymn/SCM -> that went to Wrenn -> that moved to Oko -> that now has Uro, add it to the list.
-How many decks that don't care about Dismember also don't care about Daze: again most.
-How many of this slice of legacy care about direct damage [Bolt to the dome, rather than Dismember]: basically all of them.
-Now Daze is still bad vs this slice, so how many of them care that you have Bolt and can swap Daze 1-for-1 with REB: the majority of this slice.

-What are the names of the decks in legacy don't care about Daze, Dismember, and SB Blasts: Lands, Maverick, Loam, anything with Depths, Elves, Vial, and Post
-What does every single one of these decks do: search their library.
-What SB card do most of them have: FoV.
-Now that you've forced them to care about Bolt, but Daze and Blasts still don't matter, and they mostly play FoV...what is the SB card you are adding to your deck: Ashiok (which also wins by mill, mills Emrakul out of the game, stops the Loaming)
-Do we us Ashiok vs Vial: eh, not really; this is why we have access to cards like Torpor Orb and Humility [remember Moat is trash, that needs to be Humility - pretend like you want to beat Skyclave and SnT]

Dismember is a cascading failure of a card - and we don't need to play a single game to know how it's going to end poorly. So yes, there's a huge difference between Bolt and Dismember

[Clark Kant]

Any feedback on my current Dreadstill list?

1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Waterlogged Grove
2 Tropical Island
8 Fetchlands

3-4 Standstill
4 Delver of the Secrets
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Brazen Borrower

2 Torpor Orb
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
2 Daze
1 Flusterstorm

Sideboard:
13 Other Sideboard Cards
2 Scroll of Fate - Add to Torpor Orb against matchups where Dreadnought combo or Uro is the only way to race them or against control decks that play creatures with ETB effects. Swap in place of Torpor Orb vs slow controllish decks that either play Uro or do not play cards like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic or Skyclave Apparition.

The deck's three best plays are either Turn 1 creature (Delver/Noble) into Turn 2 Standstill. Or Turn 2 StifleNought. Or Turn 2 Torpor Orb into Turn 3 Uro/Dreadnought. Torpor Orb is very fast and is incidental hate against 80% of the format

I am going back and forth between the above list and my Kroxa based list (similar but plays Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Kroxa, Bonecrusher Giant and Lazav in place of Standstill, Delver, Uro, Noble Hierach and Brazen B respectively).

[Fox]

UG has some significant problems with keeping Standstill castable off the top due to a lack of interactive cards. Any build has to start with 8x perfect Fetches and a lot of snow-lands for 3-4x Ice-Fang. This is your Delver-killing card, such that you don't need to play your own Delver to threaten to trade on blocks. Uro triggers also counter opposing Delver attacks. Ice-Fang and Uro both kill Goyf. The Delvers do need to go in favor of Reclaimer; and we note that we'll be playing at least 2x GSZ.

For as many problems as we just solved with Ice-Fang and Uro, we don't have a deck that has begun to support Standstill or Dreadnought. One thing to be aware of with Ice-Fang is that there are better lands to sleeve up (and tutor with Reclaimer) than Factory, which isn't good enough compensation for losing a snow-land. You already have the CA on Uro, and you're not getting tools from the Standstill side to cover the removal problem; this is where we move away from Standstill and specialize towards Nought. Also let's take a moment and recognize Uro gives life, Library turns life into cards, and unlike Standstill you can jam Library into any board state.

We have the best on-color removal we can, we have this Uro ramping and GY use with escape, and the ability to tutor up Reclaimer which then tutors up any land, and we have this knowledge that throwing away snow-lands will undercut our removal ideas.

Here you can play a normal legacy Uro pile [likely dropping the GSZ and Reclaimer ideas], or you can take everything that is happening and do something a generic Uro pile can't.

The thing generic Uro piles can't do is justify Stifle targeting Lotus Field -> use Lotus Field to cast Nissa of the 5/5s -> send that Lotus Field as a hexproof 5/5 to the dome or opposing PW. If a deck fights over Stifle of Lotus, you can just sac 2 lands and have that much more Uro escape food. Beginning on land drop #3 you can cast Uro and choose to dump in Lotus off the trigger,, effectively ignoring the ETB tapped clause; and Reclaimer was going to bring it into play tapped anyways.

You haven't really offered any sequence this far where an opponent can 2-for-1 you. Though variance is up, so is the power. Keep following the philosophy as you add in the Nought stuff:
-Scroll main, not Torpor.
-Karn main; no more turning on opposing Surgical any more than you have to.
-Arbor is the only mana dork; recall the 2x GSZ.
-FoN x2 main; these will be slower games, so no killing yourself by topdecking Daze.
-We're not playing Ponder; that secondary cantrip almost certainly lacks 4 slots, and is definitely worse than going up cards with Library (Plow Nought = +3 cards. No way Ponder is anywhere near adequate compensation in this spot).
-Lots of tutoring, recursive loops, and synergy going on here; we need slots not things like Uro #3 and 4 or Dreadnought #4.

The list can be found buried in this thread and also in the thread @Clark Kant started in R&D section. The main problem is that casting Verdict off of Lotus is still the best removal you can get in otherwise straight-UG.
---
You have to stop giving opponents ways back into the game. Topdecking Daze, Delver in a deck not counting to 20, playing into wrath with Noble - every single one of these are trashy topdecks after turn 2. No putting Noughts on the stack and letting people brazenly bounce your enabler [Torpor]. No playing Ponder after gifting all this interactive weakness to the opponent - you dont need selection, you need to go up cards...and Uro is getting hit by Surgical so you better have a backup CA source [that you can actually cast into whatever board state].

[Mr. Safety]

Any feedback on my current Dreadstill list?

1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Waterlogged Grove
2 Tropical Island
8 Fetchlands

3-4 Standstill
4 Delver of the Secrets
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Brazen Borrower

2 Torpor Orb
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
2 Daze
1 Flusterstorm

Sideboard:
13 Other Sideboard Cards
2 Scroll of Fate - Add to Torpor Orb against matchups where Dreadnought combo or Uro is the only way to race them or against control decks that play creatures with ETB effects. Swap in place of Torpor Orb vs slow controllish decks that either play Uro or do not play cards like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic or Skyclave Apparition.

The deck's three best plays are either Turn 1 creature (Delver/Noble) into Turn 2 Standstill. Or Turn 2 StifleNought. Or Turn 2 Torpor Orb into Turn 3 Uro/Dreadnought. Torpor Orb is very fast and is incidental hate against 80% of the format

I am going back and forth between the above list and my Kroxa based list (similar but plays Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Kroxa, Bonecrusher Giant and Lazav in place of Standstill, Delver, Uro, Noble Hierach and Brazen B respectively).

I don't think it's necessary to play Standstill if you're playing Uro and Ice-Fangs. Both of those are fine ways of recouping cards lost to Dreadnought and give velocity. Ponder doesn't play very well with Standstill either, but I think Ponder plays a lot better with IceFangs and Uros. I would straight up cut the Standstills and replace with Ice fangs. I would also cut 1 Torpor Orb and 1 Delver of Secrets (more on that below) for the other 2 Noble Hierarchs. They help you play Uros, play around Daze, help with getting a combat edge, and overall just advance your game plan really nicely. You could even look into playing something a little higher on the curve like Jace, the Mind Sculptor if you wanted to as well, although I don't think Jace is what he used to be in Legacy.

Regardless of what you do, you have a serious Delver-flipping problem. You don't have nearly enough spells to flip it reliably. Even with Uro stealing graveyard cards, maybe Tarmogoyf or Hooting Mandrils would be better suited in the Delver slots. I also agree with Fox that Scroll of Fate is a very important card, for any version of Stiflenought. I think it's worth the Delver slots as well.

Without Standstill, if you go that route, Mishra's Factory gets a little less important, too. More Snow-Covered basics, maybe even another Waterlogged Grove, would be good at establishing a base for Ice Fangs. Maybe even a Mystic Sanctuary or 2 would be ok.

[Fox]

Hierarch is a trap card; messes up Stifle early, marginally better midgame, and super suspect late game. It is also going to fail to incentivize an opponent to discard their removal [so you just killed your own Dreadnoughts, and maybe even played into a 2-for-1 wrath]. It's also fairly important that the deck can kill Karn with its dudes (Ice-Fang already took this space of dude that can't kill Karn). Hierarch creates more problems than it solves, so just play an Arbor and 2x GSZ...or play an Uro/Ice-Fang/Hierarch deck without Nought or Stifle.

Mystic Sanctuary is a bad card. The only reason to include is if a deck can necro a value card or 2-for-1. It gets even worse if your U source can't cast Stifle. When you discard a card to the board to lose a draw [necro a 1-for-1], you are generating negative velocity. If the card you necro is a cantrip, you just janked up your manabase to create 1 turn of Mirri's Guile.

[Clark Kant]

Excellent feedback Fox and Mr. Safety. Okay, I will play multiple maindeck Scrolls of Fate and sideboard the Torpor Orbs in against any matchups where they are effective hate or where the velocity of a Turn 3 Dreadnoughts or Uro is critically important.

I really do want to get Dreadstill working again though, and this is the Dreadstill thread afterall. So I would prefer not to drop Standstill for Ice Fang. Besides, as far as card draw goes, I prefer Dark Confidant to Ice Fang. Confidant immediately draws out any removal your opponent is holding thus making it far more likely that your Dreadnought will stick around for 2 turns. And if Confidant sticks around, it deals a lot more damage and draws a lot more cards than Ice Fang. Between the lifegain from Uro and the size of Uro and Dreadnought, your guys are going to be bigger than anything your opponent has.

Turn 1 threats (Delver+Noble) are essential alongside the Factories to making a turn 2 Standstill playable. It doesn't much matter if Delver takes multiple turns to flip, you can spend as long pinging your opponent for 1 damage with a Noble or Delver as they will let you, since this deck has excellent late game thanks to Uro, and each ping gets them one step closer to a single Dreadnought swing finishing them off. But perhaps MoM is better than Delver as a turn 1 threat that also protects our Dreadnoughts and Uros.

[Fox]

UG does not play Standstill b/c it can't get ahead, stay ahead, nor keep Standstill live off the top. This is a spot removal and Wrath problem. You also need to be able to deal with known problems like Leo/Narset/Chains/Hullbreacher and Karn and the idea of uncounterability; otherwise the deck does nothing.

Standstill and Dreadnought aren't about doing a linear thing and ignoring that huge problems exist which stop you flat. You begin construction against worst case scenarios, build around them, and tick each one off the list until you come out with a deck. Build backwards, not forward. Forward construction is for modern.

Have a plan for the stuff listed above and as many of these as possible: Goyf, Counterbalance, Hymn/SCM, Echo/LED, Uro, Thassa, E-Bridge, Vial, Shepherd, Depths, Chalice, SnT, and GY-using combo.

Building a deck is easy; like I can make artifacts and Thoughtcast + Reverse Engineer + TFK, but at the end of the day it's dead on construction b/c it can't work around problems. Drawing all the cards for the sake of drawing cards isn't really a solvent gameplan.

[Clark Kant]

That's pretty insightful Fox.

I would be curious to see how your Dreadstill list looks so I could see how it plans for all those different problems that you mentioned.

[Fox]

Below is a non-exhaustive list [for UW Dreadstill] with a mix of SB, maindeck, and Karn wish interactions. Making 12/12s is seldom important.

-If Goyf: Plow, Verdict, Karn wish EE-type, ambush-block with 12/12 and Scroll
-If CB: try to resolve Scroll or get a PW and turn off their Brainstorm...or in strange games Karn -> Liquimetal -> Coat CB, animate, kill spell. Postboard remove their library from the game (Ashiok).
-If Hymn: activate Scroll response to discard, dome them with manlands if Teferi active (or YOLO them if tokens from Field or Urza's). Pursue gameplan of protecting Standstill, target mana denial at red if possible. Board in Mastery of the Unseen, velocity-positive yard hate (Ashiok, Relic-types). In general, keep SCM away from GY recursion.
-If Echo: fast Noughts & build to Karn. Use Powder Keg and Rain of Salt their artifact lands.
-If Uro: kill their GY, Plow it, Karakas it. Focus on their PWs as the anti-Uro cards don't usually affect PWs.
-If Thassa: Stifle, crack Standstill to mill out, Ashiok. Consider Humility.
-If E-Bridge: manifest Dreadnought -> uptick JVP to make Nought 0/2 -> swing and flip to deal 10. Crack Standstill into them to turn off Bridge. Tef bounce. Karn animate Bridge -> kill spell.
-If Vial: build to Karn & Torpor, build to Scroll, build to Humility. Make them hemorrhage Wisp triggers trying to kill donated illusions.
-If Shepherd: build to Humility, Torpor, wraths +/- instant speed, turn off payoff spells with Ethersworn/Ashiok/Mystic Reflection. Stifle Craterhoof trigger.
-If Depths: Karakas, Plow, Wasteland, Reflection, Teferi vs Crop Rot types, Humility.
-If Chalice: Tef bounce, Karn uptick, tap Scroll.
-If SnT: establish Teferi passive, Humility, Ethersworn. Consider letting SnT resolve (dump in Typhoon or Scroll) and fight after. Karakas if appropriate. It's mostly a race to 7 perms while staying above 15 life. Ashiok to stop Shared Summons.
-If GY combo: race with 12/12s. Consider killing Bridges with Shark cycle for 0 and suicide Noughts. Build to Karn for yard hates. Karakas if appropriate. Build to Ashiok.

[Clark Kant]

Wow. That's awesome and very exhaustive. Thanks.

[Clark Kant]

Dreadnought decks just got a new tool...

Disapprove 1U
Enchantment
Flash

When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.

Creatures lose all abilities.

At the beginning of the next end step, sacrifice ~.

Its basically a Stifle that only effects creatures and costs 1 more but it also cantrips which is nice. Counters Scourge of the Skyclaves, Thassa's Oracle, Prime Times ETB etc.

The big plus is that it avoids 2 for 1s, since you can cast it first and then cast Dreadnought only if it resolves, and you still get to draw a card regardless.

Also has corner uses like removing hexproof or indestructible from your opponents creatures. If you cast it after Ice fang deals deathtouch damage to an indestructible creature, does the indestructible creature die?

Not sure its superior to Torpor Orb or Scroll of Fate but it atleast pitches to FoW/FoN/MisD so might be worth testing.

[Fox]

It's a far better card than Torpor Orb; it replaces itself. It also hits Emrakul's protections, Lage's indestructible, strips Hexdrinker's level text, strips Thassa, hits every ETB played by dude decks, and acts like a Cursed Totem for a turn (vs Mother of Runes for example)...all of those things and more, while making Dreadnoughts....and you wait and EoT it, you untap, make Noughts, and even buy it back with Teferi bounce if UW.

It's the first card in a long time that has looked good for StifleNought specifically. You don't get quite as dumpstered by Surgical target Nought with this card as compared to stacking Torpor-types...but this also doesn't replace Scroll. So there is this problem where you want Scroll and Disapprove....and Karn to beat Surgical & Chalice...and Teferi to do the rebuy trick and have the passive for Scroll.....so you kind of actually do want to be on UW Dreadstill...and uh...we're going to add 1-2x already.

So the question becomes why should we reward opponents for playing kill spells by going all-in on 4x Disapprove? Why are we playing this without Bolt or Teferi/Plow?

Especially on the UW side, why are we not also still playing UW Dreadstill and adding a free 1x Suspend. It's just a 5th Plow with Teferi passive, it plays nicely with followup Standstill. It saves Dreadnought. It casts anything I manifest face-down with Scroll like it's SnT....so I just wish for something stupid with Karn without any significant deckbuilding drawback.

I just don't see the advantage to trying to capitalize on this and not play Standstill with Dreadnought...but like ya, StifleNought does a limited amount of things with it. It looks a lot better than sitting on useless redundant copies of Torpor effects. Rite of Undoing starts looking a lot better than Brazen again.

[Reeplcheep]

Why is humility blue ???

Why is Yawgmoth will green ??

Nothing makes sense this set

[Fox]

Why is humility blue ???

Why is Yawgmoth will green ??

Nothing makes sense this set

Blue has a litany of Turn to Frog/Turn to Useless cards. This is pretty on-color for us. Phasing on white doesn't make a ton of sense, but the precident* is at least there with Equipoise.

On Will, green is at least a pretty Regrowth'y color. I think if Yawg Will did not exist that you wouldn't be shocked by the effect as green.

[Clark Kant]

Disapprove was instead translated to english as Dress Down but the card is awesome in testing.

The list remains the same.

People seem to miss that you can cast Dress Down at the end of your opponent's turn, and then cast any combination of Dreadnought, or Uro, or evoke a Subtlety, or all 3, on your turn in order to get a 12/12 trampler along with either a 6/6 uro or a 3/3 flyer all in one go which means the only way your opponent wins is if they manage to Wrath the board the very next turn (for which you have FoW and Daze and FoN to help protect against).

Vaka Nought 3.0

15 U/G Lands
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force of Negation/Misdirection/Divert/Flusterstorm/Spell Snare

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Subtlety (Flex Slot, could instead be Ice-Fang Coatl/Brazen Borrower/Standstill/Jace or Tarmogoyf)

It's absolutely fantastic. I highly highly recommend testing the Vaka Nought build above (in paper using something else in place of Dress Down and Subtlety)

The only card I am not 100% sure about yet is Subtlety. I am really looking forward to further testing Subtlety in that utility slot. The blue count is more than sufficient. There are situations where evoking a Subtlety during a turn that you have a Dress Down on the board just to get a 3/3 flyer might be useful. I anticipate that Subtlety and Noble Hierarch will be key to this strategy if Sudden Edict sees a lot of play next month.

[Fox]

Getting the anti-Daze ETB trigger [land drop and card draw] is kinda the whole point of Uro. While you can get around the sac trigger, it's not really a good legacy play. You may have some tools to play a little around Surgical/yard hate by sticking Uro in play, but you also play a ton of copies of Uro. You can't really sit on these in hand, and only ever cast if you draw the avoids-GY enabler. Your wincon is jamming and crossing fingers; Disapprove doesn't really change that.

[Pittplayer]

Possibly, but I think you meant this for the Pox thread. ~Mr. Safety~

[Tobitzki]

In Stiflenought, the red Rager & Disapprove aka Dress Down solve our Delver flip issues:

4 Rage Channeler
1-2 Gargoyle
4 PhD
2 Brazen B
1-2 Whale / TNN

2 Scroll
2 Dress Down

24 Tempo, Bolt, Stifle

19 UR Delver manabase

This (i.e. Delirium enabling > Delver flipping) might also work in a Standstill list, although there we can't quite leverage Rager's Surveil-Prowess as well. And I continue to believe that, outside of hard control, Standstill is too inconsistent in a format that has become increasingly play/draw dependent since 2018.

[Fox]

Let me tell you about 1-card delirium: sacrifice Urza's Saga, sacrifice tutored Dreadnought. Delver probably out of our lists forever. Was hard enough to flip before Scroll and Shark'nado.

Vantress Gargoyle still not playable. Whale is exceedingly poor choice, particularly if going for delirium.

[Tobitzki]

Let me tell you about 1-card delirium: sacrifice Urza's Saga, sacrifice tutored Dreadnought. Delver probably out of our lists forever.
...
Vantress Gargoyle still not playable. Whale is exceedingly poor choice, particularly if going for delirium.

Fox: glad we agree on Delver-Rager swap.

That US-DN Delirium line is hilarious but useless for flipping an early Rager (takes 3 turns), and Whale is just a super solid card that's easily supported in low numbers in a Rager list (think 1-2 Mandrills alongside Goyfs in RUG). But I'm never sure here about the correct numbers of tertiary Scroll-nonbo threats between Whale/TNN.

Gargoyle is a card we need to keep in mind, and I see a few indications that the upcoming meta would make it viable: double-synergy with Delirium and Dress Down here, blocks opp.'s delirious Ragers, and always a nice Force pitch vs. Chalice and other decks where it's hard to turn on. Uro numbers are already on the decline and vs. pretty much any other blue deck Gargoyle is strong--again: especially vs. the new 8-Delver decks (not to mention cute stuff like: they Surveil to the top, we mill in response).

[Fox]

I don't know that we need to be putting threats on blue any more and rewarding opponents for playing REB.

On *enemy* DRC [Dragon Rage Chan], I don't think going to be the most viable of cards. They start sabotaging their Delver flips with Bauble, and I think it's a spiral they can't break out of. It takes very little from enemy decks to keep that card down at 1/1 status, and the DRC decks aren't going to be able to get delirium online quickly & reliably.

Without a comeback mechanism, their decks are also going to struggle with not opening on aggro-Volc (threat on red, Daze on blue). This really easy to punish, and they can't even fight back on the Stifle axis as long as they're playing Iteration. This amount of color splitting also makes it pretty hard for them to play the Wasteland game early (they can't afford to play off one color, so they play into our Wastelands). I think the promise of Lotus Petal [mana resilience] and maybe-value will push them towards Ragavan over DRC over time...until Ragavan gets himself banned b/c of whining.
---
The better Delver gets vs the meta, the easier it is out-Delver them and play against the leftovers in the meta. If the budget meme that is UR Delver is really that oppressive to the meta, we just go back to Daze for a bit:
4x Tarn
4x Vista
5x Island
1x Volc
1x Mountain
2x Saga
3x Wasteland

3x DRC
2x Lavaman
3x Nought
1x TNN

4x Bstorm
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Bolt
3x Stifle
2x Spikefield Hazard

4x Standstill
2x Shark'nado
2x Dress Down
2x Scroll

Some of the numbers can be moved around, like swapping Lavamancer to 3x and DRC down to 2x, getting a second Mountain over a Spikefield. If their deck isn't good enough to revert to Daze, we go up 2 slots by changing Daze to 2x FoN, and get to play that PW-killing enchant main lol. Initial SB testing will be 2x Suspend, and we'll still have super-Chandra (tap Scroll -> put in super-Chandra -> Suspend target her = free Chandra, which is pretty funny).

[Clark Kant]

Vaka Nought 3.0

15 U/G Lands
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force of Negation/Misdirection/Divert/Flusterstorm/Spell Snare

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Subtlety (Flex Slot, could instead be Ice-Fang Coatl/Brazen Borrower/Standstill/Jace or Tarmogoyf)


I think I really like Esper Sentinel (and a Teferi3) in that flex slot above. It either draws you a bunch of cards, akin to standstill, or it’s a huge removal/counter magnet and makes your later threats more likely to stick.

[Fox]

Definitely do not play Daze and Esper Sentinel in the same deck; you're telling opponent that there are only 2 card names they need to address [Uro and Dreadnought]. There is also considerable risk when, more than playing a third color, you are trying to make plays with that third color before turn 3. Esper Sentinel is a card which pretty strongly suggests you're trying to cheese Winter Orb, especially if you play Hierarch.

[Rood]

In Stiflenought, the red Rager & Disapprove aka Dress Down solve our Delver flip issues:

4 Rage Channeler
1-2 Gargoyle
4 PhD
2 Brazen B
1-2 Whale / TNN

2 Scroll
2 Dress Down

24 Tempo, Bolt, Stifle

19 UR Delver manabase

This (i.e. Delirium enabling > Delver flipping) might also work in a Standstill list, although there we can't quite leverage Rager's Surveil-Prowess as well. And I continue to believe that, outside of hard control, Standstill is too inconsistent in a format that has become increasingly play/draw dependent since 2018.

The new suspend removal is certainly interesting because it garuntees a SS trigger. Also the cycle new Eternal Dragon that flashes back as a 4/4 is getting printed. Standstill will become stronger then ever with this new set.

[Fox]

MH2 review:
UR
-Urza's Saga: this 2x replaces the Factory 3x. Wildly overpriced, so let the hype die down while people figure out the hard way that it's making their mana worse. True value of this card is like $10 at best.
-Dragon's Rage Channeler: aka DRC. This card replaces Delver. Note that Saga find Dreadnought has a floor of 1-card delirium. Price acceptable at $1.
-Flame Blitz: free to include, counts toward delirium. Price is good at 50 cents.
-Fury: wildly overpriced, but it plays nicely with SB Suspend. Decent option for SB if it wasn't overpriced by a factor of 5x, this card's true value lives somewhere around $3.
UW
-Timeless Dragon: easy 1x per 2x Plains-cards you have. $2 is overpriced; see if you can find for 50cents to $1.
-Moderation: this card is technically good with Scroll of Fate, but with the banning of our 1x Astrolabe and subsequent loss of reason to run 1x E-Tutor main, the 1x doesn't seem particularly worthwhile or reliable. If there was some way to grab this out of the SB, like maybe I'd pay up to 50 cents for one. :laugh: If they banned card type PW, we would consider this more seriously.
multiple configs
-Dress Down: the price has already started to crash, which is great for this automatic 2x in any Nought list. Even the alt-art under $4.
-Suspend: this card is not worth more than $2. Anyways it's just SnT in combination with Scroll, 5th Plow with Teferi passive, protects a dude, hoses Marit Lage, and forces enemy dude to be recast into Standstill. Hilarious that this card is sitting at $8; wait for its price to crash.
-Step Through: no great game-action wizard card for Standstill to go after at this time, still worth it to own 2x since the card costs maybe 25 cents.
-Murktide Regent: wildly overpriced, and not really that good with Dreadstill. This card is pretty much mandatory in StifleNought however. Comes in at $30 per copy, and I don't see it coming down anytime soon as it was mythic-printed. Too much demand for this card in UR Delver.

-Mine Collapse: worse Flame Blitz, but technically playable.
-Solitude: in UW any alt-cast would generally cost you a kill spell to exile, but this card does have lifelink and flash so it could see play with UW/x Landstill/Standstill as it addresses a primary deficit. If banned in modern, the price should be less outrageous...$40 kill spell... Pretty great though with Suspend.
-Resurgent Belief: we don't need this right now, but worth spec'ing on if it drops below $5. If Daze is banned, it's less important to have ability to invest 100% of mana [suspend] which opponent can't interact with. There is a non-zero chance that modern will try to use this with Shark'nado and stuff like Soul Snare and Porphry Nodes; if they were to add Flame Blitz to the mix, they would not leave opponents with many card types to pressure with. Hopefully they don't see this for a while while suspend-Replenish crashes a bit in price. Modern does have a history of hilariously overpricing simple kill spells, so even Soul Snare can be considered for spec'ing. It's a little higher variance though since On Thin Ice is only $2 and is arguably the better card.
-Out of Time: this card is pretty easy to exploit with Stifle, and you can keep looping this as a wrath with Teferi [-3]. The card is quite good, but the 2nd white pip makes it just as hard to cast as Verdict vs Port. Worth a playset when it drops under $1.
-Abiding Grace: loops Noughts and Shadow over and over, but we're not going to do much with sac effects at this time (i.e. we're not going to throw them into an Altar of Dementia or Greater Good or Grave Pact or Diamond Valley-style card). Definitely a do-nothing card, but it's white so you drive up copies with E Tutor. The most you'd ever need is 1x for the 25 cents it'll cost you.
-Rishadan Dockhand: looked like we were going to try this 2x out for a little bit in UR Dreadstill, but then they printed DRC lol. It's obviously very good against people trying to leave up REB on basic Mountain. Not willing to pay more than $1 for this card, with the expectation that merfolk-cycling will eventually be printed (nice option to get utility out of an otherwise TNN slot).

Honorable mention:
Dermotaxi: Urza's Saga makes 2 dudes...this can exile enemy Uro or a 12/12 Saga just found...this card really isn't all that bad. I think it's underpriced in the long run.

[Fox]

One addendum worth it's own post: Cavern on Phyrexian now casts 12/12s and Plague Engi. This means that UG can play zero true black sources and have access to PE thanks to 1x Cavern, 2x Lotus, and Reclaimer/GSZ. It's the best removal straight-UG has ever had. Don't know that I'd maindeck it, but it's a lot less frustrating than looking at Lotus and saying "I guess Verdict is the only option in straight-UG." Of note 1x Cavern makes a lot more sense with end step Dress Down, which is much more likely to force opponent to hemorrhage blue cards in the setting of untap -> tap Cavern -> your blue card does nothing. Any time you can pick fights you care absolutely nothing about you're gaining win %. Definitely a rules update win for UG.

[Fox]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1047771255
^You can watch our green Dreadnought brothers [Testacular on Elves] in the legacy showcase. Between rounds is UR Dreadstill, vintage edition. Fury was lonely and he needed a home, so I made him one. Time marks:
1hr17 vs Mills on Wheels (Helmerator + HullyB/Wheel effects).
2hr17 vs Grixis Midrange.
4hr3 vs 8Walla. I definitely made a bad call on keeping the 7 after seeing Powder, but otherwise I like the other play patterns. There was one interesting spot in G3 where Surgical could have been used with DRC on stack still; I think I play the same way though towards the mill engine.
4hr59 vs Grixis Midrange. Second game fell victim to double queue problems, and we didn't have time for 3rd game, but I think it would end in our favor.

--Mana = 15 + 2 mdfc + 5 (22)
4x Tarn
2x Vista
2x Island
1x Mountain
2x Volc
3x Saga
1x Strip Mine
1x Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Sapphire
1x Ruby
1x Jet
2x Spikefield Hazard

--Dudes (7)
4x DRC
2x Dreadnought
1x Fury

--Enchants (7)
3x Standstill
3x Dress Down
1x Flame Blitz

--Artifacts, random (1)
1x Relic of Progenitus

--Spells, non-restricted (11)
4x FoW
3x Bolt
2x Reins of Power
1x FoN
1x Repeal

--PWs (3)
2x Dack
1x Karn

--Restricted (9)
Ancestral, Cruise, Dig, Bstorm, Ponder, Git Probe, Misstep, Yawg Will, Time Walk

--SB
2x By Force
2x Pyroblast
1x REB
1x Shattering Spree
1x Ashiok
1x Surgical
1x Soul-Guide Lantern
1x Needle
1x EE
1x Crucible
1x Alpine Moon
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Price of Progress

This format is so bad for writing down decklists succinctly lol. Anyways deck was a ton of fun, and worked out really well. The mana equation is the hardest part to figure out about vintage, with Moxen vs land numbers. Urza's Saga is also unique here, in that it represents colored mana in hand assessment with fetch Mox & Lotus lines. The whole Urza's Saga fetch Mox Jet for Yawg Will is idiotic; watch match 4 game 1. Testacular also joined me today as the only other pilot in eternal formats who has unlocked the 7th level of Dreadnought'ing achievement badge: WrathNought! (that's Reins of Power -> Dreadnought -> I sac it all!...and I don't care if your team had indestructible or hexproof or shroud or protection)

As with all decks, the most important thing is to tell the story of magic. The Phyrexian Scriptures tell us of Yawgmoth's Will and of the Phyrexian invasion, spearheaded by Dreadnoughts. This deck is dripping in flavor, and even has Urza's Saga to provide that tension and excitement you could feel in the storyline between Urza and Yawgmoth. To aid in this flavor win, there is ofc the supporting cast of boring normal magic. I went heavier on DRC, good friend Fury, Lightning Blitz, and the burn spells to set the backdrop of the world burning down around Urza and Yawgmoth's epic contest. Just having the world burning down all the time though is a little boring; see also how boring every story with Eldrazi is - it's always some pointless story about how the Jace-tice league will inevitably triumph vs the big bad Eldrazi, who are so powerful that they always lose and get imprisoned in the moon....cool. Anyways I digress, the world burning down is broken up by points of calm, a Tempest before and between the firestorms; a storytelling tactic that only Standstill can truly capture.

In terms of future tuning, more testing would need to be done. I was pretty leery of losing the 6th red source audible from Spikefield #2, but perhaps this could be the slot for SDT (which should be a 1x I think). There is also a question about the optimal number of DRC at 3x or 4x. The quality of card draw in vintage is so outrageous, compared to legacy, that I really wanted to test just how far the surveil could be pushed. Lightning Blitz is another self-entombing enchant [cycling 2] for delirium, and I liked knowing that amount of raw power was sitting in the deck if it was needed; why Blitz is consistency positive [cycling], I'll never know - but I won't question it b/c card type PW is not legitimate, so screw em. Fury is interesting, and I'm not convinced it shouldn't actually just be there as a 1x...it really bridges this gap between Spikefield/Bolt and WrathNought pretty well. The Yawg Will bullcrap exploit of alt-cast Fury from the yard is real effin' dumb, and I loved it. Price of Progress in the board is there to really drive home the severity of the situation, the extent to which this deck is coming after your life total.

The reason to do all of this is ofc Dress Down...and who doesn't love dumpstering Thassa thugs sitting on infinite Flusterstorms telling themselves they're amazing at magic. While Dress Down is a free include in the sense that it replaces itself, there is no way to justify playing it by itself, certainly not in a maindeck. It would be like playing a somewhere between a safe and crappy Accumulated Knowledge if you can't make opponents react to it. (safe in the sense that it draws through Hullbreacher's suggestion of a textbox; crappy in that the redundant copies do not draw 2, 3, 4 cards).

Dress Down also has the ability to function as a kill spell vs +1/+1 counter dudes sitting on the stack with printed P/T of 0/0. Using Dress Down correctly is just as important in legacy as vintage as it will kill any X/X constructs or sharks currently in play.

Happy Hunting, we vintage now!

[aedrew]

Help me Lord Fox, you’re my only hope.

Been trying UW with the new cards and hemorrhaging tickets but having fun with it.
Do you have a proposed list?
Liking Timeless Dragon and Dress Down. Not so sure about Urza’s Saga.

[Fox]

UW mostly on the back burner until Daze is banned; it's just a little too easy to beat up on everything UR Delver does with UR Dreadstill.

UW is mostly unchanged:
Land (21)
4x Vista
4x Strand
5x Island (option to have any blue land as Island #5)
2x Plains
1x Tundra
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Field of the Dead (split basics as snow)

Creatures [5]
3x Nought
1x JVP
1x Timeless Dragon

PW [5]
3x Teferi
2x Karn

Spells [20]
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Plow
3x Stifle
2x Verdict
2x FoN
1x Sevinne's

Artifact [2]
2x Scroll of Fate

Enchant [7]
2x Shark'nado
3x Standstill
1x Azcanta
1x Dress Down

Alternatively you could run 2x Saga, moving a Nought to SB and cutting the Field. This would favor 2x Dress Down, but you'd also want a 1 mana target besides Nought, so probably a Relic. Scroll would have to go down to 1x main, and you'd probably have to cut a second Stifle. I don't care much for this build however, b/c combat isn't really how the deck wins; certainly not sorcery speed + summoning sick.

There is the option to work in a 1x Suspend into the maindeck of the non-Saga build. On the new dragon, you need 2x Plains-cards per copy you try to run.

[aedrew]

Cool. That is close to what I have been playing but with a way better manabase.
I ran Soul-Guide Lantern with Urza’s Saga, which was actually pretty good. But yeah, my Karnatructs are generally too small and losing the mana source hurts a lot.

[Clark Kant]

Dress Down probably should be a 4 of along with 3-4 Uro moving forward. Dress Down is an incredibly versatile card, comparable to stifle in power level due to it cantripping as well as messing up your opponents game plan. I donated to BoshNRoll to play the simic list I posted two weeks ago, and the video does a great job showing just how powerful the card is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Highly recommend watching the video of the league before reading further. Game one is absolutely hilarious and is blisteringly fast. BoshNRoll provides fantastic commentary and explanations as always. And he is absolutely one of the best magic players out there, inspite of a minor mistake that seems to have cost him the 5-0 (dazing the dark ritual against oops would have led to a 5-0, and there was no reason not too since the opponent already cast summoner’s pact), is an absolute delight to watch and learn from.

Several posters wanted to read about or watch a mtgo league of deck in action and I thought it would be cool to be able to share gameplay footage. Unfortunately, technical limitations of my decade old laptop and it’s frequent crashes which have cost me multiple matches (apple user so not great with fixing windows mtgo bugs) has made that impossible, so I went back to the practice rooms and donated to BoshNRoll to take one of the Vaka Nought iterations through a magic online league to be able to share some cool gameplay and inspire discussion here.

What makes this dreadnought deck unique is that the card neutrality and versatility of dress down and the resilience of Uro make it very easy to switch to a midrange game plan if plan A fails, and also to transform into a full midrange deck postboard against control decks that simply pack too many answers for plan A to work. Earlier Dreadnought lists lost to control, where as this deck is able to pivot to a decent matchup against control. The video does a great job showing this.

The list BoshNRoll played is the Simic Version that I had submitted (I had also submitted a Bant and a Grixis version and asked him to pick and tweak his favorite list, but I really loved that the simic version could be built without dual lands, simply by replacing the tropical islands with a prismatic vista and an additonal snow covered island)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Vaka Nought – Simic

3 Wasteland

1 Urza’s Saga

2 Snow-Covered Forest

3 Snow-Covered Island

3 Tropical Island

3 Prismatic Vista

4 Misty Rainforest

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

2 Noble Hierarch

2 Brazen Borrower

1 Ice-Fang Coatl

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

2 Sylvan Library

4 Dress Down

4 Stifle

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:

3 Endurance

2 Veil of Summer

2 Carpet of Flowers

1 Wilt

1 Collector Ouphe

1 Sylvan Safekeeper

1 Flusterstorm

1 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Null Rod

1 Pithing Needle

1 Soul-Guide Lantern

The video speaks for itself. It was a very competitive league but the only game lost the whole league was due to a minor misread/misplay vs. No Land Spy which ironically enough happens to be among Vaka Nought’s most favorable matchups (8 maindeck Stifle and Dress Down are a nightmare for Thassa’s Oracle based decks). Otherwise BoshNRoll played as amazing as he always does. It was fun watching him take gameplay lines that I wouldnt have considered, such as casting a sylvan library at 1:05 to draw out a suspected abrupt decay instead of casting dress down at the end of your opponents turn two so that you could slam two Dreadnoughts the following turn as I would have done to try to save the Stifle for a potentional Liliana downtick or Deed activation later in the game.


But as powerful and budget friendly as the Simic version is, I had since switched back to the Bant version due to how powerful Prismatic Ending has been…

Vaka Nought - Bant

4 Wasteland

4 Misty Rainforest

4 Flooded Strand

2 Snow-Covered Island

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Tundra

2 Tropical Island

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

2 Noble Hierarch

1 Ice-Fang Coatl

1 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

3 Prismatic Ending

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:

3 Endurance

2 Knight of Autumn

2 Carpet of Flowers

1 Serenity

1 Force of Negation

1 Mystical Dispute

1 Brazen Borrower

1 Collector Ouphe

1 Containment Priest

1 Mother of Runes

1 Swords to Plowshares

The above are the two tuned and refined lists of Vaka Nought, but I have a lot more fun toying around with Grixis Vaka Nought...

Vaka Nought - Grixis

4 Wasteland

4 Polluted Delta

4 Scalding Tarn

2 Underground Sea

2 Volcanic Island

2 Lands

4 Thoughtseize

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

0-2 Reanimate

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

8 Creatures from the below choices…

Dragon’s Rage Channeler + Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas for consistent delirium

Death’s Shadow +/- Street Wraits (Shadow seems to work better as a 1-2 of midgame bomb in a build with 0-1 shocks instead of as a 4 of paried with multiple wraiths and shocks)

Either Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger or Gurmag Angler possibly paired with Ragavan instead of Channeler (Kroxa is fantastic with Dress Down and Stifle but competes with Channeler for the yard a bit, but not really a nonbo the way that Angler + Channeler are)

Have not had a chance to test Ragavan or Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant bur those could take up some slots.

3-4 Ragavan + 3 Kroxa + 1-2 Deaths Shadows as a random midgame bomb might end up being correct.

My current build runs 4 Dragon’s Rage Channelers along with Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas to find Dreadnought while maximizing your enchantment and artifact count to ensure consistent delirium. Channeler has exceeded my expectations by serving double duty as both a threat and a way to dig for key cards faster. Its almost like a mini sylvan library strapped to the back of a delver.

The Grixis list is in flux but all the synergies are a lot of fun. Death’s Shadow briefly becomes a 13/13 when you cast Dress Down and Kroxa, similar to Uro, can be stifled, or it could be cast during a turn that you have Dress Down on the board. A 2 mana value Kroxa is superior to a 3 mana value Uro in situations where you no longer need to pay a 4 mana escape cost the next turn.

I am probably going to donate to boshnroll to play the grixis list through a league, even though the bant version is more competitive and much more likely to 5-0, just because the grixis list is more fun to watch and play.

[Fox]

The main thing to take from that video is how bad Daze was. You have to be able to pressure to play cards like that. When you can't pressure you're trying to draw past not only dead Dazes, but also Hierarch topdeck landmines.

The first opponent registered a modern deck into legacy? Somehow Oops won a match your list is >90% favored in. The end was 2 midrange decks, and a poorly constructed Delver deck. It's great to 4-1, but those last 3 opponents had suboptimal decks, the Jund pilot definitely misplayed multiple times, and I have to suspect that the basically-Blade deck also had a number of punts. I don't think the Delver pilot had enough meaningful decisions to punt away the game, I just think they were always gonna lose that one. On the plus side, Bosh routinely missed lines where the best play was clearly to pass the turn -> EoT Dress Down -> untap and slam Noughts. He also missed the interaction between Dress Down and ambush 3/4 evoke eating 0/1 Goyf. Even if we keep the midrange decks on suboptimal lists, if we inject correct play into these matches [on both sides], I think they pretty much always win. JTMS overperformed at not only somehow surviving without protection (and dodging Pyroblast), but also being topdecked as a 1-of. JTMS is not a trustworthy card, and Bosh got really lucky to not get called on it when this was the top of the curve in a deck running Carpets. Nissa in this slot makes a lot more sense, especially since you don't care about tossing lands at opponent's removal when you have Carpet in play. So again great to 4-1 and all, but this is not a realistic reflection of viability.

Bosh correctly identified that tossing StifleNoughts around with nothing else going on, isn't really a gameplan vs kill spell dot decks. He also correctly identified that your deck really shouldn't be dabbling in Urza's Saga without at least a value target (preferably one that does something and draws a card, so like Relic).

He made some play errors, but pretty much played the deck at the highest power level it can achieve...and it struggled tremendously vs highly suboptimal fair-to-midrange normal legacy decks. I think this, and just how bad Daze was, are the more important lessons to take away.

[Captain Hammer]

Um, did you watch the same video that I did. Nothing about the opposing lists was bad. Shadow is a perfectly solid legacy deck. What cards were opponents playing that seemed suboptimal? Both Ragavan and Ignoble Hierarch are powerful cards, and the other cards were all legacy staples.

Also, interesting that youre both arguing that daze is a bad card in a clearly tempo deck, and also stating that daze will be banned due to how strong it is in delver, on the same page.

[kombatkiwi]

Also, interesting that youre both arguing that daze is a bad card in a clearly tempo deck, and also stating that daze will be banned due to how strong it is in delver, on the same page.

Is it?

[Fox]

Um, did you watch the same video that I did. Nothing about the opposing lists was bad. Shadow is a perfectly solid legacy deck. What cards were opponents playing that seemed suboptimal? Both Ragavan and Ignoble Hierarch are powerful cards, and the other cards were all legacy staples.

Also, interesting that youre both arguing that daze is a bad card in a clearly tempo deck, and also stating that daze will be banned due to how strong it is in delver, on the same page.
So the first opponent barely passed the 'not a modern deck registered into a legacy league' test. The 8 cards they showed were: 4x Fetch, 2x UR shock, 1x Ragavan, and at the very end a Wasteland. I'm not giving them credit for playing Shadow with an opener of double-Fetch 2x UR shock. I'm also not going to give them credit for being on Shadow when they cast Uro [instead of leaving it in exile like every Shadow deck would] knowing it would gain them 3 life on turn 2. That wasn't Shadow, that was Scoop and Throw.

On Jund, the entire deck is suboptimal. On the basically Blade deck, only marginally less suboptimal than Jund. These are both midrange decks, and they don't have an actual strategy beyond jam jam jam, look at all my 1-card combos. If you want to jam 1-card combos relentlessly, the card you should be playing is Uro, and the optimal deck is one of the Uro Bant piles. It really doesn't matter if they "feel" like their deck isn't just crappy Uro pile, because that's just what it is. The UG Dreadnought deck has a lot of the same problems of taking the Uro pile and adding StifleNoughts at the cost of battlefield interaction; but, it has Uro and the other two crappy Uro piles didn't have Uro. If there is one card you want against a poorly built, slow Delver deck, it's Uro.

On 4c Delver, look at the mana base. There is a zero percent chance they are allowed to do anything other than massacre their own hand trying to stop Stifle target Fetch, and then play expensive multicolor cards that are only ever going to get Dazed. Their deck is built to lose to Stifle-Wasteland-Daze regardless of the other 48 cards in deck, and surprise surprise they lost to that simple flaw.

So you've got a case of tier 2 deck beats tier 2.5 deck three times in a row. On Daze, we never play this card because it's "good" or b/c we want to. It's only there because Delver exists, and they play Daze too, plus or minus Delver playing spells that are way too expensive (eg Oko). Rewatch the league and show me where exactly StifleNought was tempo'ing opponents, and not giving them enough time to make all their land drops forever.

[Captain Hammer]

On mtgo, duals are only a few dollars more than the shocklands whereas Ragavan is an $80 card. A Ragavan deck is not packing shocks for budget reasons, its doing so because its a Shadow deck. How are you so certain that its a modern deck that was registered into a legacy league when the more obvious explanation based on the cards shown is that is a legacy death’s shadow deck that happens to be playing Ragavans.


Is it?

4 Stifle, 4 Wasteland, free counters, a 1cc 12/12 trampler that clocks in 2 attacks but is vulnerable to every kill spell in the game... yes

[Fox]

4 Stifle, 4 Wasteland, free counters, a 1cc 12/12 trampler that clocks in 2 attacks but is vulnerable to every kill spell in the game... yes
No. This StifleNought deck has zero cards it can play early which can generate pressure and force opponents to play into Daze. It also lacks spells that target life totals. The opponent has all the time in the world to sit back and hit land drops, such that Daze will never work.

[kombatkiwi]

Credit where credit is due the sense:nonsense ratio of the last 2 fox posts is way above average

[Captain Hammer]

This StifleNought deck has zero cards it can play early which can generate pressure and force opponents to play into Daze. It also lacks spells that target life totals. The opponent has all the time in the world to sit back and hit land drops, such that Daze will never work.

Just to verify, youre talking about this video right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Because thats not at all what I saw the deck do on the video. I instead saw multiple opponents scoop to an early 12/12 or 6/6 or multiple 12/12s because their life total was under too much pressure too quickly. Yes, I also saw the deck occasionally side dazes and Dreadnoughts out to switch into a midrange bant control strategy postboard but that was usually just for game two after winning game 1, and on the occasions the deck didnt win game 2 with that switch, the deck was switched back to the daze and jamming 6/6s and 12/12 plan game 3 to win the match.

[Fox]

That's the video. Now where exactly in that entire league was Daze consistently having any text? You've identified the problem; just like Worldgorger Dragon, the SB plan all too often is to become a crappy version of value pile. Now crappy value pile is favored against even crappier value pile; but it's a different story when you're up against optimal value pile - it becomes a really miserable way to play magic, since everything they do is better...and you get to lose to Surgical.

You're naming plays with sorcery speed, summoning sick 2-3cmc plays. Daze isn't going to counter anything when they get to untap, play another land drop, and then play a 1cmc kill spell - so why is Daze in the deck?

[Mr. Safety]

Does Dress Down and Suspend make mono-blue viable? I know I'm a broken record on this, so I apologize for that, but I would love to have a non-dual manabase deck for legacy. I think I'm going to get playsets of both and see what it can do to make it happen. I like that Suspend is a way to clear t1 plays to setup t2 Standstill and force it them to break it. That allows me to use Forces aggressively and get way ahead on cards.

[Mr. Safety]

That's the video. Now where exactly in that entire league was Daze consistently having any text?

Come on buddy, you know that just the threat of Daze changes play patterns. That's level 1 legacy.

[Fox]

Come on buddy, you know that just the threat of Daze changes play patterns. That's level 1 legacy.

It really doesn't if the opponent doesn't ever have to play into it.

[Mr. Safety]

It really doesn't if the opponent doesn't ever have to play into it.

What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.

[FTW]

What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.

I think the relevant point here is that if playing around Daze doesn't meaningfully reduce their chance of winning (e.g. because they are facing pressure and will lose or fall far behind by passing the turn), then Daze is much less good. Daze is much stronger in a deck with Ragavans or Delvers forcing immediate interactions. I do agree with that. If you are curving out into Uro + Stifle (4 mana) then opponent doesn't really lose much by playing around Daze. And if you do use the Daze, it slows you down a turn from Uro+Stifle, so you lost some of the tempo it gained. I don't know about "bad card", but that deck can't abuse Daze the way most tempo decks can. UR Delver with 4x Monkey is a deck that can abuse Daze and leads to "ban Daze" after 1 weekend.

Lightning Bolt is good against Eldrazi (Ancient Tomb), but if it could only hit creatures it would be worse. Bolt is maindeckable because at least one of its many modes is usually relevant.

Edit: Bosh raises the same point in the video. The high end of the deck (Uro and Jace) clash with the Daze strategy, and he boards out Daze sometimes.

[Captain Hammer]

... and he boards out Daze sometimes. Bosh occasionally siding out Daze does not mean that its a bad card. He also correctly sided out Force of Wills and even Ponder on occasion. That doesnt mean those are bad cards. It just means that stronger cards against that specific matchup exist in the board.

In the linked video, opponents had to slow their play to play around daze and lost those games. But they probably also would have lost if they jammed quickly into a daze, so daze was definitely doing its job there.

The deck 4-1ed and the only match it lost was because BoshNRoll did not Daze the Dark Ritual like they should have once the opponent was already fully committed to a summoners pact.

Daze helped the deck 4-1 and if it was used properly the deck would have 5-0ed. So why exactly is Daze bad in the deck again?

I see that your lists dont play Daze, and that they are built very differently, and I have not watched any videos of 4-1 or 5-0 leagues with those lists so I cant comment on them. I just dont buy your assertion that Daze is a bad card in other Dreadnought lists when my own experience playing both with and against the card, and the footage in the video both show it to be a good card, that your opponent is forced to slow down and play around or risk getting blown out by.


What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.


Very well said.

[kombatkiwi]

Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad.

This is almost a fundamental misunderstanding of how Daze works. The effectiveness of daze is far more affected by the kind of deck it's played in rather than the kind of deck it's used against. Any deck can have "the mana to play around / ignore it" as long as you give them enough turns to draw a few extra cards and make the land drop to have the mana to pay for it. Therefore for daze to be (most) effective it needs to be played in decks that:
A) Force the opponent to react to early plays immediately without giving the opponent time to draw extra cards and make extra land drops
B) Aren't significantly hampered by the cost of picking up one of their own islands

When one of the main proactive threat plays is eot dress down into turn 3 untap and play Dreadnought, the deck is giving the opponent a lot of time to have that extra mana to respond, so it is (apparently) failing at A

Then the other plan of the deck is Uro/Jace, which costs 4 mana, so it is apparently also failing at B


What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.

As a kind of sanity check, note that this rationale is totally agnostic to the deck daze is being used in, so you could uncritically apply it to any deck to apparently justify playing Daze in that deck (Miracles, Grixis, Combo, Stoneblade, etc).

[Mr. Safety]

Those are fair points, which are all valid when really digging deep into how legacy as a format works. I was more interested in arguing against a simplistic view of Daze than trying to capture its whole influence, which is what you did better in your above post. I don't disagree about the style of deck being very important when considering Daze.

EDIT: and I felt like being a bit of sarcastic prick.

[FTW]

In the linked video, opponents had to slow their play to play around daze and lost those games. But they probably also would have lost if they jammed quickly into a daze, so daze was definitely doing its job there.

The deck 4-1ed and the only match it lost was because BoshNRoll did not Daze the Dark Ritual like they should have once the opponent was already fully committed to a summoners pact.

Daze helped the deck 4-1 and if it was used properly the deck would have 5-0ed. So why exactly is Daze bad in the deck again?

Are we watching the same video? Bosh couldn't have 5-0ed.

vs Oops he already won the game where he didn't Daze Dark Ritual (Daze was irrelevant), but lost both G2 and G3 with useless Daze stuck in hand.

Dazing the Ritual doesn't win this round. I'd go further to say Bosh didn't misplay by skipping the Daze. He noticed he could Daze the Ritual but opted not to. He already had both Dress Down & Stifle to beat them. Why not Daze also? Unlike most Daze decks, this deck has a real cost to picking up an Island, so there was no need to burn a Daze unless necessary (e.g. keep Daze back to protect Dress Down & Stifle). He won without Daze.

Edit: What kombatkiwi said. Sure some opponents will walk into Daze no matter what other 56 cards you play, but it's optimized in decks with cheaper proactive threats and where you don't have 4 drops that clash with picking up lands.

[Fox]

I just dont buy your assertion that Daze is a bad card in other Dreadnought lists when my own experience playing both with and against the card, and the footage in the video both show it to be a good card, that your opponent is forced to slow down and play around or risk getting blown out by.

We are talking about Daze in the context of this StifleNought list. The problem with Daze here is that the deck can't threaten anything meaningful on the turn that it is doing the thing - it makes threats at sorcery speed, with summoning sickness. So unless the opponent is completely inept, it's basically impossible to get blown out by Daze b/c 100% of the time they will get an untap step, a draw, and a land drop.

So we need to look at the pressure this deck can generate on turn 1-2 which creates demands on the opponent's resources. The thing is nobody is going to waste resources so that they don't die to Hierarch or Coatl. The opponent doesn't even need to Fetch into a Stifle, unless StifleNought has made 3 land drops, passed the turn and gone for EoT Dress Down. If the opponent realizes that the only thing they have to do is make land drops and engage in meaningless small plays StifleNought can't Daze, that they will be highly favored to win by default if they play interaction - all they have to do is beat 4x FoW, knowing they can never be ambushed and taken by surprise.

This is a key understanding if you want to win with Dreadnought. The difference between Dress Down and Scroll of Fate is that if an opponent casts a sorcery speed card around Daze, their kill spell will not have Daze protection vs EoT face-down 12/12, untap take 12. If you don't have the immediate punish of basically haste, the Daze rots. So while Dress Down is certainly a cool card, you absolutely do not get to apply lessons learned from Scroll.

[FTW]

Just to verify, youre talking about this video right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Because thats not at all what I saw the deck do on the video. I instead saw multiple opponents scoop to an early 12/12 or 6/6 or multiple 12/12s because their life total was under too much pressure too quickly. Yes, I also saw the deck occasionally side dazes and Dreadnoughts out to switch into a midrange bant control strategy postboard but that was usually just for game two after winning game 1, and on the occasions the deck didnt win game 2 with that switch, the deck was switched back to the daze and jamming 6/6s and 12/12 plan game 3 to win the match.

I watched the video again all the way through, and I have to agree with Fox here. Bosh's comments and play decisions throughout the vid support that.

Round 1 - Typical "free win vs Round 1 jank" you'd get at LGS Legacy Night. Modern/budget player trying out Legacy. Note that fetching 2x Steam Vents 0x Blood Crypt 0x Watery Grave and then blowing a Treasure to gain 3 life (and give back opponent's Uro) does the opposite of what Shadow wants to accomplish, so this is much more likely to be jank/Modern than Grixis Shadow (or a bad Shadow player).

Round 2 - Has useless Daze in all 3 games of 1-2 loss to Oops! Identical result if Daze was Evermind. Daze looks weak even though this is a 90-10 glass cannon combo match where it should shine, arguably just worse than the other combo hate. Bosh boards out Dreadnought tempo plan into Bant control. UG's inability to remove permanents shows up vs Xantid Swarm & "pass the turn" Informer that would lose to most other Ux decks.

Round 3 - Bosh avoids Dreadnoughts & Daze, playing all 3 games as Jace.dec. Jace wins G1 despite rest of deck sucking, loses G2 to enemy Jace, then stabilizes to win G3. UG's inability to remove permanents shows up again. In G3 opponent misplays Kaya to lose the advantage (far ahead at turn 5-6) and let lucky Brainstorm into 1-of Jace & 1-of Saga steal the game using mana from unremoved Carpets. Needs more 1-card wincons and less Stiflenought.

Round 4 - Ok Noughts did some work here, but if you look beyond the surface disruptive Dress Down was the real star. Daze + Wasteland mana denial was bad, while Uro and Sylvan did a lot to pull ahead in cards so opponent ran out of removal to let the Noughts win. Normally Stiflenought would be bad vs Decays & Push & Lili, so it was really the UGx card advantage that dug this out. Any wincon would have worked at that point.

Round 5 - Uro, Sylvan and Endurance really won this. Mana denial plan was not used, with Stifle actually used defensively vs enemy mana denial. Dreadnought got cast but Bosh wasn't prioritizing it over the other cards that did better things, which I think was the correct way to use it (1-for-1 to draw out enemy removal then cast Uro). It could have been any creature really. In G2 he got raced with 2 12/12s on the board. That really shows the match was more about being ahead in resources than making 12/12s.

Basically R1 jank, R2 loss to combo despite Daze, R3-R5 wins as Bant control by deprioritizing mana denial plan. Jace+Uro+Sylvan+Carpet carried the deck, with Dress Down mostly used as a utility cantrip to compensate for lack of other ways to interact with resolved creatures. Nought combo itself was mediocre, with any other unanswered threat probably leading to the same results without needing to play 2-card combos.


In the video, Bosh points out the same fundamental deck construction problems Fox keeps talking about:
1) UG can't answer permanents, can only make big threats first and race, but falls behind if opponent sticks a bigger problem first
2) Stiflenought is awkward when deck goes hellbent and can't refuel on cards (no Standstill), so he has to pass on a couple Dreadnought opportunities due to lack of resources. Maybe he could have made Dreadnoughts more easily by holding back more cards to prepare for Dreadnoughts, but then there's an inability to interact with the opponent in a deck that can't deal with resolved threats, and what happens if opponent has a 1-card answer for the Stiflenought?
3) Daze+Wasteland+Stifle has tension with high CMC threats. He often opts to develop his own mana vs disrupting the opponent's. In some situations he could have held up mana denial, but he had nothing proactive going on so opponent could have just waited.

I think Bosh picked good lines by going proactive and interactive, winning in spite of the Dreadnought+mana denial plan instead of really playing to its strengths.

This is pretty much what Fox has been saying the whole time. The deck can win by playing as a version of Bant "goodstuff", just on the back of those cards being so good (Uro, Jace, Endurance, Sylvan, Carpet, counters) but would it fill that role even better cutting the Dreadnought+mana denial plan for more Bant stuff? Often it hit brick draws of multiple Stifle/Daze/Dress Down in hand when you just wish those were cards with more business. Meanwhile it didn't show many situations where the deck could really capitalize on the mana denial plan. (R1G1 opponent scooped to "feels bad" moment of double Stifle on double fetch, but that was unnecessary. Bosh had nothing on board and only a 1/1 in hand, because the UGx control lacked ways to apply pressure after mana denial, so opponent could have stabilized with "pass the turn 6 times and play lands")

[FTW]

What do you all think of Akr4n's winning URw "Dreadstill" list just splashing 1x Dreadnought 1x Standstill, and going heavy on Urza's Sagas and Ragavans?

Although it seems unfocused, it looks like it can pivot between roles and wincons efficiently (even if one of those roles is being weak to manabase attacks). And it can reduce bad draws by running 4x Saga 1x Dreadnought instead of 4x Dreadnought, which gives it even higher DN density without needing to run conditional draws.

OverpoweredMH2Cards.dec


//Creatures: 8
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantment: 1
1 Standstill

//Artifacts: 2
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

//Lands: 22
4 Urza's Saga
3 Wasteland
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 15
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Containment Priest
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer


Unlike some of the other builds, this looks like a very good Daze deck with 4x Ragavan and a very low curve.

[Rood]

Me and Morphling talked exclusively about this decklist and the conclusion was this was a very niche petdeck of ark4ns. Personally i think its a bit jumbled of a decklist and should focus on either the dreadstill aspect of the core more or the delver aspect. Trying to mush too many concepts at once here.

Also im very underwhelemed with dress down in testing over scroll of fate. Scroll has been way more excellent.

[Fox]

Ark4n asked for my Dreadstill list and we talked about the issues with Ragavan on turn 1 -> Standstill on turn 2 -> your opponent just taps Karakas and you're screwed. This is why I use DRC in UR Dreadstill; that, and the 1-card delirium combo of Saga find Nought. The issue with Ragavan is that if it isn't able to attack, you suddenly need to fix the problem that makes it so you can't attack. Blue + Red is a really poor set of colors when it comes to being able to fix "Ragavan can't attack" problems; Daze doesn't always work and neither does Bolt. If you can't attack, you're probably also behind on board or out-stat'd, such that if you did cast Standstill, Ragavan can't necessarily win a no-blocking race (and he can't use his trigger to cast spells without donating oppo 3 cards).

Watch Ark4n's first league with the direction he went and it gets pretty ugly pretty quick, where his conventional cards often come into direct conflict with the Dreadstill stuff. Afterwards he cleans it up and goes down to singleton Nought & Standstill and puts Daze back up to 4 copies to maximize Ragavan cheese. The 1x Nought acting as more copies w/ Saga at least gives a reason to run Stifle. When you're this dedicated to cheese'ing Ragavan, you can get away with 2 questionable includes. The Saga stuff is pretty easy to answer with deck construction and SB choices, but the average legacy player isn't willing to abandon small-minded 1-for-1 magic, and that's who Saga beats.

Ragavan is ideal for a white splash as you're technically able to cast Prismatic Ending for up to 5 colors, and you have nearly-DRS levels of mana protection on an otherwise yolo-ish manabase of all duals, all weak to choke. Ending is a far better spell at turning Ragavan attacks back on, and you also get to play Karakas profitably. This mana advantage also makes it pretty effortless to derp out Expressive Iteration users who are going to struggle tremendously to untap with 2 mana producing lands, and also beat Daze....vs an opponent getting free Lotus Petals. So not really a Dreadstill deck so much as the ability to jank-out a bit off the back of a creature that will likely get banned. The presence of 4x Saga is a little more questionable than Nought and Standstill as it is a pretty easy concept to attack and shut down...and if you shut down Saga they have to draw through worse topdeck trinkets they couldn't tutor.

[FTW]

Interesting. That explains the deck choices.

Skimming through some of his leagues, it looked like Standstill was the worst card in the deck. The deck can't just drop turn 2 Standstill on an empty board and hope to reliably win the value race or find a threat in time (only Saga works). One control opponent correctly figured out they could beat Standstill by just letting both players draw to 7, firing off EOT Brainstorm to crack Standstill, then letting Ark4n discard to hand size (1U: Draw 3, discard 3) for net card disadvantage while the opponent untaps with 9-10 cards to work with (if Brainstorm resolved). Cutting down to 1 Standstill makes sense. Would 3eferi just be better in that slot in his build?

I assume for UR Dreadstill you guys have multiple threats like Sharknado and Mishra's Factory as well as Urza that are live under a Standstill?

Ark4n apparently cut Dreadnought from the more recent build, though I think as a 1-of it was nice to have an out for Saga to produce a fast clock instead of just slow grind (Retrofitter, Cursed Scroll, 2/2 constructs that are often not even made). Without Nought the deck has a serious clock problem as all the threats can run into 2/2s.

One thing the deck does really well is win at Ragavan. It's probably the best Ragavan deck in that event and won off that.

Yeah, shutting down Saga does shut down a lot of the gas in the deck, but the meta seems focused on shutting down artifacts (Null Rod?) instead of shutting down Saga directly. Meanwhile I've watched streams of Saga decks stomp through a Null Rod and pretty much ignore the minor disruption to Mox mana and equips.

[Fox]

In UR Dreadstill the combo is counting to 20. That's something you can't do on 4x Ragavan, no other 1 drop dudes, 4x Plow, and 2x Bolt. There is little value in flinging Bolt to the dome in response to Standstill crack on end step, b/c you're just going to refund their life with Plow.

In UR Dreadstill we play 4-6 game action threats, but we also play 6x 1cmc dudes that come down before the Standstill (and they can't be hit by Karakas). Saga allowed us to finally drop Mishra's Factory. Between Standstill, we are also highly likely to resolve Scroll of Fate which ups the game actions count quite a bit.

On Saga, people also routinely fail to understand mechanics and choose to blow 2 Stifles on construct creation, rather than 1x Stifle vs the ability to "gain" ability to make constructs ever. It's also pretty hilarious that people would put Torpor Orb in their SB [like normal cantrip cartel, no Karn], but they won't add Dress Down vs that same Thassa....even though it 1-shots constructs, and draws a card....and Thassa was all over that top8.

[Mr. Safety]

I know there are many factors to consider for all the variants, but I saw this deck that is just quad-laser focused on their game plan. No fussing around with numbers, just give me 4 of the cards I want, lets go.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=31158&d=442127&f=LE

[Fox]

I know there are many factors to consider for all the variants, but I saw this deck that is just quad-laser focused on their game plan. No fussing around with numbers, just give me 4 of the cards I want, lets go.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=31158&d=442127&f=LE

I count 4 FoW to stop Surgical Extraction. Daze only has text vs players who don't understand that there is no urgency to play into it b/c this isn't an aggressive deck. Sit back, make your land drops, don't get your mana Stifle'd, and they can't kill you out of nowhere.

Now to be fair a lot of legacy players are so brainwashed by mindless jammy jam cards that they don't understand that all their jamming really isn't relevant. Just play to stop their deck, and you win by default more often than Nought.

[FTW]

On Saga, people also routinely fail to understand mechanics and choose to blow 2 Stifles on construct creation, rather than 1x Stifle vs the ability to "gain" ability to make constructs ever. It's also pretty hilarious that people would put Torpor Orb in their SB [like normal cantrip cartel, no Karn], but they won't add Dress Down vs that same Thassa....even though it 1-shots constructs, and draws a card....and Thassa was all over that top8.

If you're talking about Ark4n's video where he double Stifled Saga to stop construct creation, I think he was tapped out for Ragavan when Saga hit Chapter 2. Waiting a turn to hold up Stifle mana is probably the better play. Once tapped out and Saga levelled, he realized those Constructs stop Ragavan (and almost every attacker in his deck with Dreadnought removed) so he ended up burning 2 Stifles to trade with less than 2/3 of a card just to let Ragavan keep connecting. That does trade positively for mana (badly for cards) and I think it made opponent tap Ancient Tomb 2 more times. Ragavan is so overpowered that you can get rewarded for burning cards to make it connect, but overall it showed the weakness in his lack of wincons. At least with the 1-of Dreadnought he had the option to ignore 2/2 tokens instead of throwing multiple cards at them. I think his primary wincon is people conceding to Ragavan connecting 2-3 times.

@jammy jam: Surely you've seen how quickly people jam or concede online?
Online magic, especially Leagues, has a different incentive structure to paper magic and that encourages players to play differently. In paper Magic, you're there for a fixed amount of time playing a fixed number of rounds no matter what, so unless you need to leave to get food you might as well grind it out until it's over. Especially when DCI still used Elo ratings, every win counts. If you can spend another 20 minutes to outplay them and not take the loss to variance, you do it. Online people jam, and if it backfires into a "feels bad" moment, they'll just concede to a tilt even without the opponent having a demonstrable wincon. Sure they could try to come back and win that game, but they could just requeue immediately, get a fresh start, and feel good. You get more trophies by playing fast than playing tight, so why stick around and grind out from an unfavorable position? I think that has led to people playing Magic differently.

[Tobitzki]

nice, should've known that this where discussion of Ark4n's list was at.

Agree with @FTW: Standstill looked pretty bad. I could see bringing in 1-2 copies from the board in certain MUs, but MD it's damn near unplayable in a meta of 8-12 1drop Delver.

I think the correct way to look at the deck is as Delver-less Delver with US in the Delver slot. Yes, Ragavan's utility is fully leveraged here, as mentioned (Karakas, PEnding, construct etc.), but when I still counted 26 spells, my first instinct was just to put those Delvers back in for Monkeys (yes, also because I'm not about to shell out €50 apiece for them). Monkeys did some impressive Dashing in that Challenge, but I'm not at all convinced that it's a better overall card in an open/offline meta. As @Fox wrote, there are also good reasons to run DRC over either of them; and my guess is that we'll want more than 4 1-drops in the end, the makeup for which remains to be seen.

I also liked the single Dreadnought here--there are just too many decks that can't handle the 12/12--but the tool I'm really looking at is Shadowspear (maybe over Foundry): turn2 US on its own now becomes a half-evasive, lifegaining 7-power army ready to attack by T4, like some kind of Mishra's SFM.

Going from the original list, I'd reduce MD Swords for more PEnding and Bolts, shave a US or 2, add another TNN and/or Mentor (more threats to equip)

On the mana: It's not clear to me to what extent the fragility of all-duals actually works in our favor, as it soaks up WL that would otherwise hit US. perhaps without Monkey business we'd want to include a few basics..

[Fox]

When I'm talking about jammy jams, I'm talking about cards people mindlessly spam regardless of anything else going on in the game. Prime examples include Strix, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang, Uro, Shardless, SFM, etc. Players of these cards and the inane pile of no-strategy good stuff that goes with them will be your loudest complainers about a card like Saga. These types of players can't stand ever making a sacrifice and playing a more precise and powerful card, b/c it's not always "good." They will sit on their Abrupt Decay types and whine because they had to use 2 cards to deal with 1 card, b/c it's of a type they can't interact with. You also see this kind of complaining when they get overrun by 2/2s from Field of the Dead. Meanwhile everyone else in legacy is saying "it looks like you seem to routinely have problems vs land cards, perhaps you should play Wasteland or Trophy b/c you clearly need it."

Standstill is highly playable vs Delver, as in I might cut 1...on the draw. You do need to build the deck correctly however. Delver is among the easiest matchups we have, and it doesn't matter what card is legal unless it is called Wrenn or Oko. As easy as Delver is, the easiest of all time for us was Lurrus Delver (b/c they couldn't play Oko after Wrenn ban); this was a cakewalk. Arcanist is another card we were deeply saddened to see get banned, b/c we love responding to 2 mana 1/3s with Standstill and drawing 3 to their flashback Ponder meme, and making them bleed out blue cards trying to protect the 1/3 from Plow or Bolt as we're developing mana and getting far outside Daze range.

When choosing Standstill/Landstill vs Dreadstill you're mostly picking whether or not you want to target Thassa and/or really go after Delver's mana. In terms of the Oko meta, Standstill/Landstill had a difficult time with Oko only, whereas UR Dreadstill had an overwhelmingly positive matchup vs Oko Delver (they were horribly slow, and played into Daze super hard). Now that it has gone to UR Delver, UWr Standstill/Landstill is back on the menu. Spikefield Hazard is a helluva card, and 2x Prismatic Ending brings 1-cmc kill spells up to 8x vs Delver. UR Dreadstill is just a different way to attack UR Delver and the meta. You also have specialization options towards Timeless Dragon/Prismatic Ending/3rd color or Saga/DRC/Dress Down. Whether Standstill/Landstill or Dreadstill, you actively want to be paired against Delver right now. The ReplenishStill meme, however, that turbo-died when Endurance got printed.

[FTW]

When I'm talking about jammy jams, I'm talking about cards people mindlessly spam regardless of anything else going on in the game. Prime examples include Strix, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang, Uro, Shardless, SFM, etc. Players of these cards and the inane pile of no-strategy good stuff that goes with them will be your loudest complainers about a card like Saga. These types of players can't stand ever making a sacrifice and playing a more precise and powerful card, b/c it's not always "good." They will sit on their Abrupt Decay types and whine because they had to use 2 cards to deal with 1 card, b/c it's of a type they can't interact with. You also see this kind of complaining when they get overrun by 2/2s from Field of the Dead. Meanwhile everyone else in legacy is saying "it looks like you seem to routinely have problems vs land cards, perhaps you should play Wasteland or Trophy b/c you clearly need it."

Players do it because it's the direction Wizards has taken the game since at least a decade ago. It's how the most formats work and all new players know.

Old school players remember Magic used to have many diverse strategies beyond the combat step. Old decks had to have dedicated strategies and synergies, because creatures were weak and most cards were not that good individually at face value (none of these "1-card combos" as you call them). Random creature piles would get steamrolled by decks strategically using cards towards a clear goal. Even creature piles had to combine them towards some strategy (Elves ramp, Lackey/Vial mana cheating, Ponza LD, Slivers synergy, spending multiple cards to make a fatty, scalable threats, toolbox & recursion decks) because just casting random fair creatures was not good enough. Trading 1-for-1 didn't matter as much as whose gameplan was advancing more or who was able to disrupt the other's strategy. It was also much more common to have single cards printed that hated out whole strategies, then to run a mix of narrow solutions for whole strategies rather than trying to play generic 1-for-1s against any deck. (Until Vindicate it was very rare to see an efficient card that could kill anything against any deck, so you had to settle for disrupting a different way).

But Timmies got frustrated when Terra Stomper.dec lost to things like total land destruction, total hand destruction, removing the untap step or draw step, pillowforts, prisons, griefer mechanics, mana burn, killing them with their own wincon, Storm, decking, 20x counterspell + 1 Morphling/Millstone... so since at least M10 they fundamentally changed the game to revolve around turning creatures sideways. Their first attempt of Baneslayer Angel (cramming many keyword abilities on 1 card) still loses to Doom Blade, so they settled on pushing ETB value creatures and overpowered early drops. Adding the Planeswalker card type further pushed the game towards creatures, because creature advantage is the cleanest answer. Is it a surprise that value creatures have now taken over most formats?

Legacy's Brainstorm + fetchlands combines with that philosophy to mean any Ux deck can just splash all the value stuff, and it turns out that wins games. Now the format is mostly 1-for-1 (blue tempo with undercosted threats) vs 2-for-1 (blue midrange with value creatures) vs combo (often enabled by blue cantrips), so the focus of the game for fair decks becomes drawing your creatures and making positive trades.

It's been so long now, and I gave up complaining after M10-M11, so I haven't really reflected on how much the game has changed until I started brewing silly decks for premodern Random Standard. But the game has changed a lot. And this is the game they want. They like printing a few overpowered "bomb" Mythic 1-card wincons. They want casual players to topdeck their shiny expensive card and have the card actually live up to the excitement they feel when it takes over the game. Then they get to feel the joy they want that shiny card to evoke, justifying the money they spent on it and encouraging more spending. They don't like spending $50 on Baneslayer Angel and dying to 2-mana Doom Blade. They want a game where spending more money on the new strictly better pokemons lets you topdeck into wins regardless of game state, justifying the spending.

I noticed you're an Enlightened Tutor player too (UW Dreadstill, Esper Landstill, BW Arguel's Shadow) so you must have encountered enough players naysaying the card as a 2-for-1, missing you don't have to use it to get 1-for-1s but can tutor up cards that destroy whole strategies or combo pieces that win the game. I think ETutor is one of the most slept-on old cards in this format (Mystical got banned ages ago), and this jamming value philosophy is probably why it gets passed over.

[Fox]

On E-Tutor, a lot of the nay sayers have 2x SB slots given to the same narrow artifact/enchant, which doesn't make a lot of sense when they could effectively double up slots in a wide variety of matchups using the SB E-Tutor trick. This same group of players also struggles to count strategic development as CA...unless it's Shame Island, then they love Noxious Revival/1-turn of Mirri's Guile (necro cantrip) for some inexplicable reason.

They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral. When looking at 1x Astrolabe, you also have Teferi which further incentivized the Tutor for Astro, on top of the fixing. The new interaction that goes over their head is Tutor Alpine Moon, possibly vindicate a land (Saga) and kill all other copies in deck. A long way down from plays like these is the [usually] 2 mana hate card that wins the game, found by E-Tutor on turn 1, and as a bonus it beats discard.

The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...but then they printed Timeless Dragon, which is also fairly outrageous mana screw insurance for UW. It's not as good in Dreadstill though [lower white source counts].

On the UR side, DRC can mill to Island. If we're talking vintage, Saga finds Sapphire, and also Jet (or Lotus) for Yawg Will. Attacking mana variance is where Standstill-based decks can outclass decks that have to burn 4 slots on Ponder and play tap-down sorceries into Narset/Leo/Chalice to keep up on mana development +/- color fixing. UG has Reclaimer. E-Tutor is no longer a member of the maindeck fixing club; at least not until the next Astrolabe. The SB expanding trick is still live though.

[FTW]

E-Tutor is no longer a member of the maindeck fixing club; at least not until the next Astrolabe. The SB expanding trick is still live though.

At least for Landstill/Dreadstill. UW RipHelm / UW Parfait can ETutor for Land Tax to fix colors. Strawberry Shortcake can tutor for Great Furnace to get their main color (much worse than Weldable Astrolabe but beats being color-screwed).

Those strategies don't really work in Standstill decks though. You'd have to go pretty deep and play garbage like Sanctum Plowbeast or Expedition Map/Wayfarer's Bauble. Map is at least something you might run in a Saga-Dreadnought build, but these cards still all fail if you're stuck on 1 Plains and no 2nd land.

[kombatkiwi]

On E-Tutor, a lot of the nay sayers have 2x SB slots given to the same narrow artifact/enchant, which doesn't make a lot of sense when they could effectively double up slots in a wide variety of matchups using the SB E-Tutor trick. This same group of players also struggles to count strategic development as CA...unless it's Shame Island, then they love Noxious Revival/1-turn of Mirri's Guile (necro cantrip) for some inexplicable reason.

They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral. When looking at 1x Astrolabe, you also have Teferi which further incentivized the Tutor for Astro, on top of the fixing. The new interaction that goes over their head is Tutor Alpine Moon, possibly vindicate a land (Saga) and kill all other copies in deck. A long way down from plays like these is the [usually] 2 mana hate card that wins the game, found by E-Tutor on turn 1, and as a bonus it beats discard.

The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...but then they printed Timeless Dragon, which is also fairly outrageous mana screw insurance for UW. It's not as good in Dreadstill though [lower white source counts].


It's you who doesn't understand this lol

Island is worth a card (this is clear, many people play island in their deck for the purpose of going -1 card in hand +1 island on the battlefield)
If you play Mystic Sanctuary you have lost a card from your hand (-1) got an island in play (albeit sometimes tapped one, +1), and (if lategame / 3 islands) put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: +0
If you cast Noxious revival you have lost a card from your hand (-1) and put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: -1

Astrolabe (ignoring the cantrip) is not worth a card (this is clear, nobody plays mana cylix in their deck)
If you Enlightened Tutor for Astrolabe and then cast it:
You lost a card from your hand (Enlightened Tutor) (-1)
You tutor a card to the top of your library (+0)
You lost a card from your hand (Astrolabe) (-1)
You gained an Astrolabe in play (+0, see mana cylix comment)
You drew a card from the ETB trigger (+1)
Net result: -1. You are NOT "card neutral"

Ill spell out the same thing for sharknado:
You lost Enlightened Tutor from your hand (-1)
You tutor sharknado to the top of your library (+0)
You lost sharknado from your hand (-1)
You gained a shark in play (+?)
You drew a card from the cycle (+1)
Net result: -1 (+shark token)

I like Etutor too but this point about tutoring for astrolabe has always been total rubbish


Map is at least something you might run in a Saga-Dreadnought build, but these cards still all fail if you're stuck on 1 Plains and no 2nd land.
E-Tutoring for any of these means you go -1 card just to help you fix your mana
If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN
If you have other good reasons to separately play both Astrolabe and Enlightened Tutor in your maindeck then having the OPTION to do this is something worth being aware of; claiming that this 'combo' is an actual incentive to play Enlightened Tutor maindeck is nonsense

[FTW]

E-Tutoring for any of these means you go -1 card just to help you fix your mana
If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN
If you have other good reasons to separately play both Astrolabe and Enlightened Tutor in your maindeck then having the OPTION to do this is something worth being aware of; claiming that this 'combo' is an actual incentive to play Enlightened Tutor maindeck is nonsense

My comment above was pretty clear about this being an option (if you're already an ETutor deck and already running Map for Saga tricks), not the reason to run Tutors. Also notice the phrasing "go pretty deep" and "garbage".

It does help when the tutor you already run for a variety of other reasons can also get you out of color screw. Not because you kept a 1 Plains hand, but because the opponent Hymned your other lands, Wasted your Tundra, Stifled a fetch, or cast Smallpox/Sinkhole. Those are more reasonable ways to get stranded on just 1 Plains even when your hand looked keepable. I guess NonETutor players prefer the option of "concede". In other decks I prefer tutoring for Land Tax in that scenario, because it both fixes and gives card advantage, and it will very likely trigger in all those scenarios where opponent manascrews you, but it's not something Standstill decks play.

Shortcake also runs colorless lands so it can get stuck on something like Plains + Ancient Tomb + Urza's Saga where it had a keepable hand but then draws Welders and REBs and can't cast them. Going -1 card to get red is better than being -3 cards because you can't cast your hand.

[kombatkiwi]

My comment above was pretty clear about this being an option (if you're already an ETutor deck and already running Map for Saga tricks), not the reason to run Tutors. Also notice the phrasing "go pretty deep" and "garbage".
I agree that you understand this WRT to Sanctum Plowbeast / Map etc, I shouldn't have quoted your statement there, I'm was only trying to address this:


They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral.

The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...

[Fox]

I don't think you've put in the hours on Dreadstill to see the difference that Astrolabe/E-Tutor made. The mana had to be totally reworked without it. There was also a substantial decrease in mulligans with Astrolabe; lots of hands have mana quantity, and just need a way to turn that into finding blue mana. You're talking about a deck which at the time had 6 colorless sources and a Tundra - you do whatever it takes to avoid the mulligan lottery with those in your deck.

In any deck with Standstill what we're doing is turning is turning mana quantity into mana quality, and all of this is being approached in a way that beats the card Daze. This is the Standstill variance reduction engine. Going up on strategy is the same concept as going up a card. The largest fraction of avoidable losses comes from either mulligans or the mana not coming together. It is comparatively rare to lose because of something the opponent's deck was doing, in a game where our mana came together.

Even if you don't believe in mulligan reduction or strategy, UW Dreadstill is the best Teferi-using deck in the format. We'd play that PW as a 3x which meant Astrolabe was going to recoup raw value, and then start going up on raw cards. It got worse and worse for opponents as the mana engine turned on all of the loops [Karn->SB, Sevinne's->yard, Azcanta->library] and ultimately led to tapping Scroll on end step with Teferi passive -> take 12, and I don't care how many kill spells are in your hand, you didn't play to win. It's a bigger late game than most legacy decks have, and all you have to do is get there with the mana, and that's why you played E-Tutor for Astro to ensure the mana was more likely to get to this point...and after the first Teferi, the CA became relentless as the ability for opponents to interact meaningfully evaporated.

Being able to cycle E-Tutor for Astrolabe or unites an opening gameplan's Shark'nado/Standstill, it is a very different thing than searching an all-in combo piece. When I can unite Standstill & Shark'nado but also choose to attack internal mana variance with tempo using E-Tutor, legacy becomes very easy - to the point that resolving and protecting Oko became an opposing strategy's only viable wincon.

On Shame Island, you already have 3 Islands in play...you're not getting a +1, your mana was already set up.

Shame Island also increases mulls by contaminating opening hands in decks that are already trying to get gg'd by Wasteland, as they play 3-4 duals. Now Ponder can bail you out of crappy mana situations you put yourself in, but it shouldn't have ever gotten this bad in the first place. Then there's the whole issue with not playing 4x Vista and taking the free 5-10% winrate, all so you can have a turn of Mirri's Guile... This Shame Island stuff is not good manabase building, particularly when you're trying to aggressively set up 2x basic Plains for Verdict.

[FTW]

Thinking about this more..



Island is worth a card (this is clear, many people play island in their deck for the purpose of going -1 card in hand +1 island on the battlefield)
If you play Mystic Sanctuary you have lost a card from your hand (-1) got an island in play (albeit sometimes tapped one, +1), and (if lategame / 3 islands) put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: +0
If you cast Noxious revival you have lost a card from your hand (-1) and put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: -1


Glacial Floodplain, Irrigated Farmland and Soaring Seacliff are not worth a card in Legacy. Tapped nonbasic Island is significantly worse than untapped Island. Even if it taps for 2 colors and cycles!

I tried Mystic in other UW decks and always ended up cutting it. Memeing back Terminus or Brainstorm is fun, but in your hand it's a dead card (early game tapped land instead of untapped land can mean a loss) and once you have 3 Islands you don't really need a 4th. Control is already favored lategame and struggles the most at stabilizing early. You don't really need another card to add marginal value lategame, especially if that card also makes it harder to survive to that stage.

I played a lot of Landstill back in the day, when cards like Dust Bowl and Tolaria West were in the deck. They were great value when the format was slow. But when the format sped up, it reached a point where the possible late game value was not good enough to justify having a land that leaves you color/tempo-screwed in the early game. Mystic Sanctuary seems to fall in a similar category.




If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN

The more I think about this, this sounds terrible. Which would you prefer?
A) 6 random unknown cards (mulligan)
B) 6 cards you know are worth keeping if you had both colors (going -1 card to fix mana for an otherwise good hand)

If you have to go -1 hand size either way, I would much rather choose B than gamble with variance and risk having to go down to 5.

If you have ways to get value from that Astrolabe in play (Teferi, Goblin Welder, Oko, Urza's Saga) then you aren't even going down a card.

Tutoring for Wayfarer's Bauble still sounds terrible, but in general being able to tutor to keep an otherwise good hand beats random redraws.

[Mr. Safety]

I would say that Mystic Sanctuary is safely in the Commander-only playable category. It's nuts in that format when you can buy back Treasure Cruise, but in Legacy it would need to be worth the same amount of cards; neglecting better mana is not good.

Is ETutor with 1-2 artifact lands even good? Basic plans lets you ETutor for Seat of the Synod, but that just seems a little too risky against a format that will always have not only Wasteland but potential sideboard hate like Abrade. There is the new ETB tapped artifact land that is indestructible, but that is nowhere near playable here.

I think it's important to note, whether it's good or not, Bant Mid-range is actually playing Abundant Growth to fix it's mana. While it's not ideal, especially in Legacy, it replaces itself and helps to pay for Uro's steeply colored cost. I don't think there's an equivalent for UW/Still decks.

[Fox]

I don't think there's an equivalent for UW/Still decks.
Timeless Dragon.

[Mr. Safety]

Nice, that seems pretty solid of a plan to me then.

[Rood]

I’m on 4 Timeless Dragon for manafixing and its been working perfect. The cards actually busted only downside is you have to run 4 white sources so 2 Tundra 2 Plains. But yeah, I would never play less then 4 Dragon in this deck personally I think its one of the best cards printed for the deck.

[Fox]

I think the optimal rule is probably n+2 plains-cards for Dragon. It is less clear where Vista can be dropped to a 3x. In testing UWr Standstill, 3x Dragon definitely allows dropping a Vista, but unsure if 2x Dragon can also support a dropped Vista.

In terms of breaking the Dragon/Vista rules, I think you're probably looking at going for n+1 with 3 Dragon to 4 plains-cards and putting Vista down to 3x. Given Prismatic Ending is a better card than Disenchant/Path/Purge, consider 3rd color producer in SB. Unfortunately Triome enters tapped, making it a poor choice vs exile target Choke. Probably stick with a white/red or white/black dual, depending on what you want to accomplish.

[Purple Blood]

the SB plan all too often is to become a crappy version of value pile. Now crappy value pile is favored against even crappier value pile; but it's a different story when you're up against optimal value pile - it becomes a really miserable way to play magic, since everything they do is better...and you get to lose to Surgical.

You obviously don't use that sideboard strategy in that type of matchup.

[Fox]

You obviously don't use that sideboard strategy in that type of matchup.
In discussing Uro/Stiflenought: against tier 2.5 (Mentor, Blade, etc) you absolutely SB to turn into crappy version of UroPile...because no matter how much worse you are than an actual UroPile, you have Uro and tier 2.5 doesn't.

You never keep going all-in on Dreadnought just to reward Snapcaster/StP thugs.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Now that we have Urza's Saga, should we cut Phyrexian Dreadnought to 1-2 copies? Since Saga can fetch for Dreadnought.

EDIT: Um I guess I'm a few days behind the discussion.

[Fox]

Now that we have Urza's Saga, should we cut Phyrexian Dreadnought to 1-2 copies? Since Saga can fetch for Dreadnought.
Unlikely. Among the best cards in the deck is still Scroll of Fate, so you still need to draw 12/12s. I also probably wouldn't go beyond 2x Saga in legacy builds. The strategic problems aside, there is a lack of slots for going above 2x Saga and also have a 2-3 card tutor package.

There's not much to be gained by having low land counts in play (eg Rivalry-types)...and as far as I'm aware, Reclaimer and Crop Rot are about the only playable ways to cheese the sac trigger that come to mind.

[Fox]

Got to play paper again finally, went 3-1 on UR Dreadstill. Loss to GW Depths, wins vs DnT, BantUroBlade, and BW Dead Guy. Plenty of tech vs GW Depths but never drew it sadly.

Tons of mulligans tonight despite outrageously good mana and land counts; three mull to 6 and a mull to 5, so pretty frustrating there. As always Daze is a trash card we have to play simply b/c Delver exists and plays it; so waiting on this ban to come through so we can play real cards in its place [2 FoN + 2 flex]. Daze is the better ban, but it's also not acceptable to ban DRS and leave Ragavan legal - there is a heavy cluster of first player advantage exploits with this group of cards.

Dragon's Rage Channeler and Lavamancer were incredible all night. Saga and Shark'nado did what they are designed to do. Dress Down always felt like the right amount. I enjoyed a good amount of turn 2 delirium and sacrifice Saga -> sacrifice Nought for 1-card delirium.

Noughts were made in 5 of 11 games (1 by Stifle, 3 by Scroll, 1 by Dress Down) which is quite high, and there were three instances of just getting one out of the deck with Saga [to sacrifice]. In total opponents were able to attempt to kill a Nought 7x, and succeeded once...which is a normal finding.

Saga was responsible for two legitimate attempts to make Dreadnought (rather than purely searching to bin). Both coincided with Dress Down, one succeeded and the other Dress Down vindicated a FoW from hand, which was as good as Dreadnought would have been. This was done with Urza trigger on stack and I binned a Nought anyway to continue the DRC/Lavaman beatdown.

Overall there was a significant spike in completely non-commital Dreadnought attempts, without increased ability of opponents to cope with it. This goes back to DRC, Lavamancer, and Scroll being completely intolerable and chewing through removal. DRC is particularly intolerable and heavily altered opponents' play patterns. Leaving DRC alone is not an option with the card selection, ease of delirium, and count to 20 combo speed.

Stifle was as unreliable as ever on mana denial; I think I hit 2 Fetches all night. On the flip side, looking past the mulligans, my manabase was highly uninteractive, and around 3 enemy Wastelands targeting Saga walked into planned Stifles. Was happy to have cut down to 3x Stifle, made possible by Saga & Vista freeing up a slot for Mountian and finally dropping to 1x Volc.

Lands (21+1)
4x Vista
4x Tarn
5x Island
2x Mountain (almost had to proxy the second one, but a friend had a spare)
1x Volc
3x Wasteland
2x Saga
1x Spikefield Hazard

Dudes (9)
4x DRC
2x Lavamancer
3x Nought

Spells (29 + Spikefield counted in Lands)
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Daze
4x Standstill
4x Bolt
3x Stifle
2x Dress Down
2x Scroll of Fate
2x Shark'nado

SB
2x Alpine Moon
2x Suspend
2x Abrade
2x Ashiok
2x Pyroblast
1x REB
1x Staticaster
1x Relic
1x super-Chandra
1x Surgical (suboptimal, couldn't find Phyrexian Furnace)

Things to look for in SB: effect that exiles artifacts without being unplayably worse than Abrade (causing sacrifice is okay too), enchantment hate. Generally consider Teferi's Realm, Invasive Surgery,, Torpor Orb, TNN (this changes Suspend towards Mystic Reflection), Flame Blitz, and other 1cmc target over Surgical (primarily Furnace-types, Needle, Cursed Scroll, or maybe Silent Gravestone). A good wrath spell would be ideal, but none worth playing exist in UR, and honestly Fury or Powder Keg are probably the best bets.

[Fox]

A quick suggestion that im see could help you out. I would replace a island for another off color dual to make explosives stronger.
That's a great way to lose the game to B2B, Moon, and Wasteland. This tactic died in 2012 when maindeck EEs with Trinket Mages fell out of playable. The suggestion you're making, if building optimally, would be to have 1x Expedition Map and 1x Lotus Field, both in the board. We don't have slots for this, but it is not an unreasonable way to beat Choke.

[Fox]

FR D&D set doesn't have much of interest:
Hall of Storm Giants - potentially a better manland than Field of the Dead in UW Dreadstill at 2x copies, based solely on the fact that it can produce blue. Definitely a good way to punish Choke. Cost is acceptable at around $1.25 per copy.
Monk Class - has some issues competing with Teferi for slots, but this card is quite playable. Cost is acceptable at 80cents, unlikely to need more than 2 copies.
Yuan-Ti Malison - not so much for legacy play, but this seems undercosted at 60cents. I can't imagine a standard player is going to find a better card than a 2cmc 2/1 unblockable dungeon trigger.

Big whiff on the white dragon-manland. If that was 3/4 lifelink instead of flying, it would be in the discussion.

[Piproberts]

Yesterday Fox and I recorded a talk about Dreadstill - sort of a decktech and a match analysis. I hope you guys enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQR0oftZm70

[Fox]

...and Dreadstill takes the 5-0! Congrats @Piproberts. The deterministically dead on board timeout by Cartesian has been avenged in full. We will be making another video showing a second Stiflenought deck losing badly b/c it ran Ponder. This concept will continue to be hammered home until it sinks in.

Matchups in order: Goblins, Reanimator, Reanimator, Grixis Stiflenought, mono-red Painter.

BR Reanimator has lost 4 matches in a row rather convincingly. Always nice to see Chancellor 'sploiters get dunked on.

Chancellor is an effect which shouldn't exist, but then again neither should the ability to fire off >1 Pact (without first dealing with the impending trigger)...and then again if you resolve a discard spell you should lose the game if you can't win in 5 turns. Alas, we'll never see the quality of life Chancellor + Surgical package ban, and there are bigger fish to fry: Daze and/or Ragavan. :cool:

[FTW]

I watched some of them. The deck looks very strong, was piloted better in those matches, and performed very well. It was also a lot more interesting to watch you advising Piproberts real-time instead of discussing the replay.

Good luck with the Dreadstill Bootcamp.

[Fox]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-RcXkxAVJo&t=6s We finally got around to recording the second encounter with Stiflenought. Just did games 1 and 3 for speed. Game 2 they won with a turn 0 Delver and just enough Wasteland to slow down a 4/4 Dragon as blocker.

Played paper today and went 3-1. Wins vs Dead Guy Ale, TurboDepths, and GW Depths. Loss to Gyruda Bomberman. Fun games, and the deck felt great. Depths decks play so hard into Ashiok, it's pretty comical. Almost felt bad for the Depths decks in the room, they had 2x Dreadnought decks sharking the 10-person event. Any time 20% of the event is playing Humility, you know you're in for a good time. Room was Dead Guy Ale, UWR Ragavan, NicFit Smog, Elves, UW Dreadstill, UWG Stiflenought, TurboDepths, GW Depths, Bomberman, and something like madness....maybe [unsure].

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm currently watching the recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAAn6Qy8OFw Just got through round 2 game 1, will probably have to stop at some point soon but will continue latter.

First off, let me say that the commentary quality is really good, and you offer a lot of insight.

At 43:02, you mention fetching to avoid drawing the basic Island. Wouldn't leaving the Vista uncracked be better? The dragon already gives you land four so that you can eternalize next turn. They swing with everything, you block the 3/3, go to 1, and maybe have another turn to work with. Of course, you're very much on the back seat and essentially any additional creature kills you, but doesn't that line give you a bit more hope? Or am I missing something?

I agree that, with the benefit of hindsight, an early Dreadnought + Stifle might've been the correct play, but I also agree with taking the more conservative line, even if it didn't play out. As you say, the risk is too high.

[Fox]

There are different consistency engines in magic. One school of thought is to leave up a Fetch for Brainstorm. The strikes against this view are:
-Brainstorm doesn't exactly do much when you deploy as many land drops as you can. This style represents consistent shrinking of hand size, driving towards hellbent Brainstorm (a largely useless play).
-the odds of drawing a Brainstorm vs an Island is going to be about 50-50 odds. It is particularly bad to topdeck the last land a Fetch could grab when it was totally avoidable. Even if other Fetch targets remain, aggro Fetch'ing is increasingly statistically impactful when it comes to not drawing lands. Contrast this to a Ponder user who has more control over drawing a Brainstorm vs remaining Fetch'ables.

In a scenario where I can choose to survive at 1 with a dead Fetch vs improving odds of winning topdeck, I will generally choose playing to win. About the only time I wouldn't Fetch is if I think oppo has a Bolt - here Fetch is acting like Duress taking Lightning Bolt by sitting on the field. The other thing to keep in mind is that Dreadnought + Plow is gain 12, so the deck isn't playing by the same rules as other decks.

[The Treefolk Master]

There are different consistency engines in magic. One school of thought is to leave up a Fetch for Brainstorm. The strikes against this view are:
-Brainstorm doesn't exactly do much when you deploy as many land drops as you can. This style represents consistent shrinking of hand size, driving towards hellbent Brainstorm (a largely useless play).
-the odds of drawing a Brainstorm vs an Island is going to be about 50-50 odds. It is particularly bad to topdeck the last land a Fetch could grab when it was totally avoidable. Even if other Fetch targets remain, aggro Fetch'ing is increasingly statistically impactful when it comes to not drawing lands. Contrast this to a Ponder user who has more control over drawing a Brainstorm vs remaining Fetch'ables.

My point was not regarding card selection, but rather the extra life-loss from fetching. The opponent put you to 0 exactly after using Vista. Had you not used Vista, you'd be at 1 and have a dragon out. It's by no means a solid position to be in, but it's better than losing, I think.

[Fox]

In that game vs goblins I'm not statistically winning vs Vial [pseudo-haste], haste goblin lord, etc... by trying to survive at 1. The best way to win is maximize chances of drawing Verdict and saying "they don't have Sling-Gang, or Matron for Sling-Gang, or haste lord + second Goblin."

Plow topdeck also translates to +12 life if drawn.

[Fox]

Another 3-1 in paper. Decks in room were UR Dreadstill, UW Dreadstill (me), UWR Ragavan (a derivative of my UR Dreadstill list) vs Gaak, KassariPost, NicFit Smog, GW Depths, Prowess-Burn, BUG value, Painter, and one unknown. Wins vs GW Depths, KassariPost, and UR Dreadstill; loss to Prowess-Burn. Never could find the second Plow to gain 12 sadly, but congrats to the opponent on going 4-0.

Initially Post and Burn had a bet that the deck with a worse record at the end would buy the other a Lilly of the Fail or FoW. Post got the bye round 1 and they called it off, ending the subgame. Was a pretty fun day with Standstill warping the meta to such a degree, even if we did occasionally have to teamkill. Will be fun to what the other decks do to adapt if we keep team Standstill at this meta share. :cool:

[snugar_i]

Hi, long time reader, first time poster here.
@Fox, I was watching the gameplay video you made with piproberts ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAAn6Qy8OFw ) - it's a great resource to learn from.
I have a few questions about it:
First, in the last game (against D&T), what was wrong with the 7-card hand? It had two lands and double Swords - to an unskilled player like me, it seems pretty fine...
Second (and more controversial), throughout the games, there were several spots where you were hoping to draw some specific card (land, Verdict, Karakas, Karn etc.) - isn't this exactly where Ponder/Preordain would be really good? I understand that under Standstill it's better to draw real lands and not Ponder, but if there's no Standstill and you are looking for something specific, it just seems it could get you out of some situations where just praying for the topdeck doesn't help.

[Fox]

I have a few questions about it:
First, in the last game (against D&T), what was wrong with the 7-card hand? It had two lands and double Swords - to an unskilled player like me, it seems pretty fine...
Second (and more controversial), throughout the games, there were several spots where you were hoping to draw some specific card (land, Verdict, Karakas, Karn etc.) - isn't this exactly where Ponder/Preordain would be really good? I understand that under Standstill it's better to draw real lands and not Ponder, but if there's no Standstill and you are looking for something specific, it just seems it could get you out of some situations where just praying for the topdeck doesn't help.

The seven card hand was okay enough to keep, and turned out to be better than the 6 and the 5. When assessing the hand you know you have to lead on Strand and grab basic Plains. The next land has to be Storm Giants - meaning I must topdeck a Stifle or an Eternal Dragon on my first draw step (otherwise the top 2 of 3 cards of the deck have to be lands). In terms of what goes wrong: they get to resolve Vial and/or Waste me and/or follow with a Thalia or Port. This vs my hand that doesn't really have a plan + a FoW I can't pitch. In a post-board game I'm happier going for a hand with more lands [less ability for DnT to interact] and 7 looks for a card like Torpor Orb.

On cantrips like Ponder and Preordain - why would I want this card vs a quad-laser Spirit of the Labyrinth deck? I would side out Ponder immediately vs DnT. I would do the same thing vs Chalice.

Playing Ponder-types with Stifle is also self-defeating; you're just saying Stifle will get Dazed and they will have all their mana for that turn b/c you tapped down for Ponder. I have no interest in casting cards like Ponder before land #3...and if I've already hit these early land drops through deck construction, Ponder isn't adding much. To review, the only thing Ponder is good for is cheating on land totals [too few] and cheating on crazy colored requirements [too many]. After this point you are losing interaction, because Ponder takes slots. What you're doing past this point better lead to a win the turn you go off or be the most power-crept 1-card combo at the time (DRC, Ragavan, Murktide, Uro, Ice-Fang, Endurance, insert PW, etc). When you are combining multiple cards to achieve a greater effect, all that Ponder can do is make your deck one dimensional [easier to stop, and also easier to Daze] - you can watch two sample videos vs Stiflenought kill itself at deck construction b/c it played Ponder, and there was just nothing they could do worth worrying about. It's an incredibly predictable sequence, and the lessons can also be applied to decks with underpowered 1-card combos (UWx Blade or Mentor for example); consistent + underpowered = consistently underpowered = tier 2.5

While this list has less control over what it draws, everything it draws is designed to combo together with every other piece [as much as is possible]. No matter what I draw, the chances are it forces a trade, and eventually the opponent runs out of relevant trades...at this point overwhelming advantage begins stacking up. Not only does Ponder interfere with this process, but it also doesn't help white mana hands find blue mana...so you have to lose cards to mulls or risk being unable to continue to use mana. At all points I want to draw a Timeless Dragon or Shark'nado or Azcanta or Standstill or Storm Giants before I'd want to see a Ponder.

[Fox]

3-0 in paper with wins over BW Dead Guy Ale, 80 card DnT, and mono-R Painter. Other decks in the room were 4c Uro midrange, RG Lands, and I forget the last two.

Against DnT, since we were discussing that matchup, they lost game 2 to double Dragon + Cursed Scroll the Flickerwisp/Mother of Runes exploit. Game 3 the game spiraled out of their control and they were eventually drawing 1 card per turn vs Karn, Scroll of Fate, Torpor Orb, Mastery, Azcanta, Crucible, and 8 mana (outdrawn 3 to 1 per turn). Unlike trying to play Ponder vs quad-Spirit of the Labyrinth, you focus on the mana and combo all your pieces together...and each time they falter, you add more pieces. Your opponent should be able to pick up their deck and tutor every draw step and still lose after a successful midgame. Ponder cannot deliver this level of power.

[Kevftw]

Hey Fox,

Wondering if you've had a chance to play UR Dreadstill again since the post above from July, and if so is there anything you reckon you'd change in the list?

Got a paper legacy event tomorrow for first time since lockdown and looking forward to having a bit of fun with dreadnought.

[Fox]

UR list is pretty set; the main question is what your local meta is up to. The more combo the meta has, the better DRC will be. The more slow/fair, the more Endings you'll see, and the less impressive DRC will be.

There isn't much space in UR for a card like TNN, so you'll mostly be looking at the 4th slot of Daze and 4th slot of DRC (both fairly bad cards vs the Uro midrange stuff). I've never liked losing SB space to multiple TNNs hiding out there. The other option in the 4th Daze slot is a Saga target that both interacts and can replace itself; I prefer Phyrexian Furnace over Soul-Guide since it is repeatable, and unlike Relic it doesn't mess up my own GY.

Probably the most middle of the road approach to TNN would be -1 DRC, +1 TNN, -1 Daze, +1 Furnace-type, and SB -1 Relic-type, +1 TNN. If you end up more TNN-heavy, Suspend will need to be shifted toward Mystic Reflection.

[FTW]

Watched Rood crush with UR at 58:00 (Match 4) in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1qLqvg-N_8&t=11s

OP's deck otherwise has some strong things going on (Moons, 20/20s), good enough that the deck auto-wins through misplays, but Standstill shut it down well and OP didn't figure out how to play around it (e.g. boarding in 6 drops, then Wasting himself off mana to cast them).

I like Rood's tech of Subtlety.
Subtlety + Stifle: 1-mana 3/3 flyer + Memory Lapse
Subtlety + Dress Down: 2-mana 3/3 flyer
Or it can just be Evoked or hardcast normally. Many modes.

Does anyone have his current list somewhere? It looks quite different to the UR Dreadstill above (multiple Subtlety main, Factory instead of Saga, Delver instead of DRC, SB Price of Progress). Was that to adapt to fair matchups?

[Fox]

@Rood changes it league by league quite a bit. :tongue:

The list you're probably talking about is:
4x Island
4x Factory
1x Mountain
3x Vista
4x Tarn
1x Volc
3x Waste

4x BS
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Dress Down
4x Standstill
4x Bolt
3x Stifle
2x PoP

3x Nought
4x Delver
4x Subtlety

SB
2x Surgical
2x Soul-Guide
3x Blasts
2x PoP
2x Fury
2x Unholy Heat
2x EE

Before this he was experimenting more with Thing in the Ice....but b/c mtgo is a quality program, Stubborn Denial with ferocious active doesn't hard-counter a spell, which has impeded his testing on this front.

[Rood]

Watched Rood crush with UR at 58:00 (Match 4) in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1qLqvg-N_8&t=11s

OP's deck otherwise has some strong things going on (Moons, 20/20s), good enough that the deck auto-wins through misplays, but Standstill shut it down well and OP didn't figure out how to play around it (e.g. boarding in 6 drops, then Wasting himself off mana to cast them).

I like Rood's tech of Subtlety.
Subtlety + Stifle: 1-mana 3/3 flyer + Memory Lapse
Subtlety + Dress Down: 2-mana 3/3 flyer
Or it can just be Evoked or hardcast normally. Many modes.

Does anyone have his current list somewhere? It looks quite different to the UR Dreadstill above (multiple Subtlety main, Factory instead of Saga, Delver instead of DRC, SB Price of Progress). Was that to adapt to fair matchups?

Ive been testing alot of different stuff out since im back on MTGO now. Subtlety is a nice card with Dress down and stifle to blink in for standstill. Price of progress is cause everyone is on 4c control and lands on mtgo. My list is the exact same Fox posted. My UW list is

4x Dreadnought
3x Timeless Dragon
1x Retrofitter Foundry
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Daze
4x Stubby D
4x Dress Down
2x Scroll of Fate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Prismatic Ending
4x FOW

4x Flooded Strand
3x Prismatic Vista
4x Urzas Saga
3x Wasteland
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island

1x Mountain
1 x Plateau
3x REB
3x PoP
2x Pyroclasm
2x Prismatic Ending
3x Soul Guide Lanternu

[FTW]

Interesting tech. Looking forward to seeing more of it online.



4x Dreadnought
3x Timeless Dragon
4x Stubby D


4-of Stubborn Denial without another (early) big creature? Is this often used in Force Spike mode? Do the Saga Constructs regularly enable Ferocious?

[Rood]

Sagas. Timeless/Thing in the Ice and dreadnought all enable them. Very good combo hoser card as well

[Fox]

New set coming out soon, pretty sure it's fully spoiled:
UW Dreadstill:
-March of Otherworldly Light - costs $3.50 apiece; get the playset. This is Prismatic Ending for strict 1-2c white decks, will be trialing a 3/3 split with Plow to start, but will likely settle on 4/2 split with Plow. Importantly this card exiles artifact and enchantment lands, and ofc March works with Liquimetal.
-Touch the Spirit Realm - technically a way to Show and Tell off Scroll of Fate under a Standstill. 50 cents a copy.
-Boseju, Who Endures - overpriced at $35, but don't expect a quick price crash until it gets Wrenn banned. Technically any UW deck can play nothing green but just have 4x Boseju (so no Wastelands) to get color #3 for Ending and then use 1st Boseju to channel the other 3.

For UR Dreadstill:
-Otawara, Floating City - $8 likely overpriced, but you only need one. Swap one Island to this or add in a spell slot. This card should be considered in every deck with Standstill.

For UWR/UWr Slandstill/Landstill:
-Lucky Offering - very close to SB playable lifegain for UWR/UWr Standstill.

For UBw Landstill:
-Takenuma, Abandoned Mire - heavily overpriced at $9.50. Rebuys cmcs that Sevinne's can't see. I'd rather play the blue channel land, but this black one has its place. Outside of the archtype there is technically the line of Living Wish for ability to rebuy a PW with Takenuma in SB.

For UG-based ideas, and also cube:
-Colossal Skyturtle - uncounterable Brazen Borrower, costs about 50 cents. Regrowth ability is sweet, seen in GY by Replenish.
-Kappa Tech-Wrecker - it's a ninja turtle, it costs <50 cents. It exiles Kaldra.
-Master's Rebuke - close to playable removal in green, unlike fight a deathtoucher can't send damage back. Cost <50 cents. If it cost 1 it could be looked at more seriously.
-Kami of Transience - technically a combo with Standstill and Shark'nado. Might buy once it's below 50 cents.
-Gloomshrieker - better Eternal Witness (has menace). costs 50 cents.

Karn wishing:
-Reito Sentinel - better Soldevi Digger effect for Karn wish. Costs 25 cents.
-Runaway Trash-Bot - pronounced "run away...[dramatic pause]...trash bot." Worth picking up for 25 cents to let opponents know what you think about them staying in games they've lost.
-Reckoner Bankbuster - costs 2, draws some cards, turns into a Bitterblossom. Technically you can crew 3 to whack with a 4/4, but why?

Random stuff:
Commune with Spirits - good cantrip. note that this finds Oath of Nissa, representing one of modern's best options for cantripping. Oath of Nissa currently around $2 (this is the card you'd want to pick up)
Mnemonic Sphere - consideration for Painter. Overpriced at $1. Reasonable card to pitch to FoW with a Karn deck.
Tempered in Solitude - under 50 cents. This card represents a reasonable spec with red channel land if standard has a burn/aggro deck. Turns topdeck land into 2 dudes that can effectively draw cards by attacking alone. Abbot of Keral Keep had spoil price of $8, but these two cards do the Abbot thing better.

[colo]

I just wanted to say thanks for posting these kinds of analyses whenever a new set comes out - I do not have much time for the game right now, but plan to re-enter Legacy "fully loaded" when I do, and posts like yours help me keep up with interesting cards. Appreciated! :)

[Piproberts]

New video uploaded where I play UW Dreadstill. Fox joins me halfway and we have some interesting discussions and situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEs9oeckNUg

[BirdsOfParadise]

-Reckoner Bankbuster - costs 2, draws some cards, turns into a Bitterblossom. Technically you can crew 3 to whack with a 4/4, but why?

It only ever makes one 1/1 token, or am I missing something? Removing a charge counter is part of the activation cost of the ability, so you can't use the ability any more once you're out of charge counters.

If the colon were placed differently, it would be a Bitterblossom.

[Fox]

It only ever makes one 1/1 token, or am I missing something? Removing a charge counter is part of the activation cost of the ability, so you can't use the ability any more once you're out of charge counters.

If the colon were placed differently, it would be a Bitterblossom.

Ah nice catch, still it's mostly about wish for a draw 3. Would need Nesting Grounds to keep something like this going (with a charge counter maker like Vial). The better wish target is probably Mnemonic Sphere because it pitches to FoW and you just re-wish it for the draw 2.
---
Played UW Dreadstill last night in paper. Went 4-0 vs DnT (2-0), Grixis (2-0), GW Depths(2-1), and mono-white Geddon (2-0).

Game 1 vs DnT they didn't have removal and lost to Nought off Scroll. Game 2 they introduced monarch with Court of Grace, I kept them off a token with Stifle, and they would go on get about 4 extra cards while I bounced Court with Teferi, countered it, and stole the crown with EoT shark. Had about 10 turns in a row of being monarch, and that's how that game went.

Game 1 vs Grixis they got Stifled off black, had to crack Standstill, and died to Storm Giants each time they tapped under 4 mana. Game 2 Stifle kept them off basic Mountain for a bit and their REBs were overwhelmed by Teferi, Ashiok, and Sevinne's. Of note in g2 they lost 1 Fow to Teferi cast and then discarded a second FoW the next turn to Sevinne's -> I FoW'd back -> they pitch casted their third FoW and never really recovered from discarding 6 cards in 2 turns.

Game 1 GW Depths had a pretty fast Lage and I didn't have a kill spell in hand for whole game. Game 2 they respond to Teferi with double Crop Rot to set up EoT 20/20 and luckily Teferi downtick hit a white source for March and they didn't recover from Rain of Salt-self. Game 3 was weird, and they ended up cut from green mana (Stage copy Plains + Maze + Field of the Dead) vs Ashiok and Teferi for too many turns.

Game 1 vs Geddon they couldn't assemble enough mana and died to a Timeless. Game 2 they played turn 2 Saga which got hit by March before gaining the ability to tap for mana; after that it was irrecoverable for them. I think they got to 4 mana one time, but never got to put a Geddon on the stack.

Unplanned Nought kills by opponents: 1
Planned Nought kills by opponents: 1
Games won by combat including Nought damage: 2
Games won by exclusive Nought damage: 1
Games won by exclusive non-Nought damage: 1
Concession to unwinnable position vs prison elements: 4

[DKK]

Have been off Dreadnought-based lists for a couple of years, cool to see this thread is still somewhat active. I'm intrigued by the UW Dreadstill list with 3Feri and Karn, nice work. What does the post-Neo list look like? For example from the tournament you just posted about Fox.

One thing I'm wondering: what do the 12/12s add to the 'regular Standstill shell'? How often are they just dead in hand and would be better off being something else to tighten the lock?

[Fox]

The list is largely unchanged. When they banned Oko, Sparkhunter was no longer needed in SB. When Ending was printed it replaced Spell Snare. When Dragon was printed it unfortunately meant the 2nd Tundra came back in the place of 4th Vista. When Saga came out, 3rd Standstill to 2nd Ending. Variance of second Tundra deleted by replacing 3x Mishra with 2x Storm Giants. When March came out, immediately dropped both Ending.

Main thing being looked at now is whether 4th Brainstorm can justify slot over 3rd Standstill. Standstill remains the best answer in the format to Plow/Ending users.

The format is waiting for Echo ban, and given that Timetwister and Mind Twist are both on the banlist, it is not unreasonable to expect a Day's Undoing ban piggybacked on principle. This will return the format to Uro vs Murkgoyf.

4x Strand
3x Vista
3x Island
2x Plains
2x Tundra
3x Waste
2x Storm Giants
1x Karakas

4x FoW
4x BS
4x Plow
3x Stifle
2x Standstill
2x March
2x FoN
2x Verdict
2x Shark'nado
2x Scroll of Fate
1x Sevinne's
1x Azcanta
1x Dress Down

3x Teferi
2x Karn

3x Nought
2x Timeless

SB kit unchanged for the last 2-3 years other than Sparkhunter to EE. Otherwise the legacy meta and FIRE design has failed to generate any need for different play patterns.
---
In terms of why UW Dreadstill over UWr Standstill/Landstill, the only things offered by UWr is Spikefield Hazard, ability to support 1 more Dragon, Ending rather than March, Snapcaster, SB Blasts.

UWr can't fix primary deficits: no real lifegain, no access to non-Pyroblast'able onboard value engine.

UWr issues: Post, DDFT (nevermind that Dress Down is getting Daze'd, UWr can't use this as an enabler. SB Torpor Orb similarly looks bad for same reason), Saga (can only support 2 Wasteland, Ending doesn't kill Saga), Elves (fewer tools vs Elves, Ending is sorcery vs Dino dude), etc.

In general, UWr has much poorer early game and lacks prison elements granting inevitability. The trade-off is that UWr is comparatively low skill; pretty easy to play Plow/Ending + SCM, 6 Force, and SB Blasts. Before Ending was printed, UWr was able to play 2x Teferi 5cmc and board them out for 2x Nahiri, which at the time was the only way to kill Klothys while getting ahead. Nahiri is now redundant, and Endurance wiping GY makes it harder to cast her SB friend 13/13 Emmy.

The tldr is that UW Dreadstill runs higher win %...and as far as Standstill/Landstill goes, higher winrates with UBw than UWr. Skill required in ascending order: UWr < UBw < UR Dreadstill <<< UW.

[DKK]

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. A couple of observations and some questions.



The format is waiting for Echo ban, and given that Timetwister and Mind Twist are both on the banlist, it is not unreasonable to expect a Day's Undoing ban piggybacked on principle. This will return the format to Uro vs Murkgoyf.

This is a new perspective for me. Why do you feel Echo will be banned? If anything would be banned it would probably be something from UR.



SB kit unchanged for the last 2-3 years other than Sparkhunter to EE. Otherwise the legacy meta and FIRE design has failed to generate any need for different play patterns.

Would you be willing to share the sideboard for the current metagame? The latest one I could find in this threat is from this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4227548#paper
Also, if you could give an insight into what the basic SB-plans vs the top 5 decks (Delver, Bant, Storm, DnT, 8cast) is?

I'll be taking the deck for a spin on our FNM this Friday. Some other questions to get a feel for how the deck plays out:
- how often do you use Stifle to enable a Dreadnought vs. to counter fetchlands (or other abilities, for example Saga's 2nd one)?
- what is your most frequent Karn target?
- have you considered adding Standstill #3 as the 61st card? I know it's a blasphemy, but the deck does not feel overly reliant on specific cards and Standstill #3 could give some needed card advantage.
- how much of an annoyance is the rise in Urza's Saga? reason to add a 2nd Dress Down to the maindeck or do the addition of 2 March of Otherworldy Light feel sufficient?
- have you considered Back to Basics for the sideboard?

Thanks for your willingness to share!

[Fox]

That is the correct SB you've found, but Suspend has been changed to EE. While Suspend was fun with Teferi passive, it's just redundant. You run EE/Keg to pull in the better effect and keep the backup in the board for Karn wish. EE also gets points for being able to kill Choke b/c people who play that card like giving you black or green mana with Urborg/Yavimaya.

In terms of UR, the deck is a budget meme from the Khans era. The only reason it can see play is b/c WotC banned Probe (effectively banning Therapy, effectively banning Grixis Delver...followed by banning maindeck lifegain of DRS). After this the UR deck always disappears when a new card comes out, particularly when lifegain is on that card (Oko, Uro, Klothys, Lurrus), they also have no choice but to drop their deck when FIRE hits (saw this with Wrenn, Lurrus, Oko, and Klothys). Even now, the only reason the dominant deck isn't RUG Delver casting Klothys is that Klothys lost his unkillability once Ending was made legal - that's how close UR Delver is to being ejected from the meta at any given time. Right now UR Delver is coasting on fumes b/c they hit a little timing window where Uro can't interact with MurkGoyf in a head to head (no reach), and a 7/7 or 8/8 (or higher if 2x Murktides) stat line generates dead-to-Bolt range before "gain 3 life" attack triggers close the door.

Iteration is a meme without Ragavan/DRS cheating on mana while being valid protect the queen creatures (i.e. worthy of protecting with Daze). Murktide is a joke ban, b/c it's just a Goyf that got marginal power creep 15 years later; it's still a 2 mana, over-stat'd, summoning sick, non-trampler <- every deck construction in legacy begins at not dying to this cluster of 4 characteristics that define "Goyf." Anyone who says "ban Murktide" can't be taken seriously b/c it's going to get power crept to irrelevance over time (and even now every single color in magic has no issue killing it). The only card you can realistically ban is Daze; and while this is the correct ban, it's not likely to happen, nor is it particularly pressing since basically all FIRE cards it could protect have been banned.

On Echo there is a game structure problem. There's no point to having rules about keeping/mulling hands applying to players on the draw when player 1 can just go land -> LED -> crack LED, Echo. It is particularly problematic b/c player 1 can mull down to 2 exploiting the London mull to effortlessly deny player 2 from ever getting to have a keep or mull decision. Next just count the game objects: player 1 went from 7 things (7 cards in hand) to 8 things (1 land, 7 cards). Now ask yourself what the game's compensation mechanism for being on the draw is: that's right - getting an 8th thing (8th card to hand) to player 1's 7 things...only they have 8 things...and that's how you know Echo is living on borrowed time.

Let's take a moment to walk through why Probe actually got banned: Delver goes from 7 things in hand to Probe -> Sea -> Therapy down to 6 things (1 land, 5 cards). Their opponent on the draw goes from 7 things (on turn 0) to 5 b/c they happened to have a 2x in their opening hand. Now compensate player 2 with their extra card and....hmm somehow player 2 only has 6 things to player 1's 6 things...so where's player 2's compensation??? Game structure problem.

Day's is a less pressing ban b/c it doesn't have LED as Black Lotus creating game structure problems. It is however hard to look at Mind Twist and Timetwister on the banlist, but somehow people are getting MindTwistered right now in legacy thanks to particularly loose, non-symmetrical wording on cards like Narset/Breacher/Leovold + Day's. Again, living on borrowed time. The one and only redeeming thing about this brand of bullcrap is that it doesn't happen on turn 0 or turn 1, so it's harder for power creep [particularly power-crept fair cards, i.e. 1-card combos] to piggyback on this and win the game before the other player ever got to play the game.
---
Anyways back to Dreadstill:
-almost never make StifleNoughts. Preferentially hit Fetches, Wastelands.
-you wish for what the opponent can't beat (you need to know their decklist, or at least how it operates). Sometimes they can't beat uptick, even if it's without a target.
-every card you add to Standstill decks hurts the card Standstill. I guess you could add Standstill and a land (either Otawara or a Vista) for a total of 62, but now you're hurting the odds of drawing cards that let you cast Standstill in atypical positions.*
-March, Wasteland, Stifle, and Dress Down are enough hate. All of my top end has play against Saga.
-One of the benefits to playing Storm Giants and Azcanta is that I can ignore Choke. In this setting B2B is self-defeating as it railroads me into having to Force every Choke.**

*You have to be aware of the meta. DnT is in full panic mode (lots and lots of Labyrinth Spirits), people are exploiting MindTwister to play otherwise unplayable combinations (hard to Stifle vs Teferi, hard to Brainstorm vs Narset), 8cast gets most of its wins by picking non-commital fights with Emry/Chalice x=1 (this gives them FoW superiority, which is ultimately their wincon), EchoCannon is cheesing Hullbreacher. My deck uses deck structure, rather than xerox cantrip theory, to hit land drops and fix mana. If I see Chalice, I'm boarding down on Bstorm so that I have the luxury of ignoring it. This isn't an option for xerox decks to pull out their Ponders & Brainstorms. Brainstorm is among my least valuable spells in the deck.
**B2B and Blood Moon are only good vs decks that basically all run: Boseju (otherwise you're trying to cheese a Daze deck). Blood Moon has been unplayable since FoV just means Moon cheats in your opponent's Lage. B2B had a little while where you could do some fun stuff with Teferi 5cmc's [+1], but that was only for UW/r Standstill/Landstill. Dreadstill incorporates more nonbasic mana use. We also have little issue naturally smashing the mana of decks a conventional control deck would need to dig for B2B/Moon-type cheese against.

8cast:
mainly looking to not let them pick a fight with Chalice
-1 Nought
-2 BS
+1 Humility
+1 Ashiok
+1 Keg
-1 Standstill (down to 1)
+1 Mastery
can consider -1 Stifle and -1 Plow to Nodes and EE.

Delver:
-1 Nought
-2 FoN
-1 BS (don't really care what I draw vs them, it's all good)
-1 Scroll
+1 Nodes
+1 EE
+1 Relic
+1 Ashiok
+1 Humility (might do Crucible on the draw)

Storm:
-1 Nought
-4 Plow
+1 Relic
+2 Ashiok
+1 Canonist
+1 EE

Bant:
-2 Nought
-2 BS (Breacher/Narset users)
-2 Plow
-1 Stifle
+2 Ashiok
+1 Relic
+1 EE
+1 Humility
+1 Nodes
+1 Mastery

DnT:
-2 FoN
-1 Nought
-2 BS (Labyrinth users)
-1 Standstill
+1 Humility
+1 Torpor
+1 Nodes
+1 EE
+1 Mastery
+1 Crucible

[FTW]

New video uploaded where I play UW Dreadstill. Fox joins me halfway and we have some interesting discussions and situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEs9oeckNUg

@Fox: I notice quite a few games here are lost to mana screw on few lands. The very thing that Ponder fixes. I get that you don't want Ponder in Dreadstill, but it's also <20 colored sources with Xerox-ish manabase and colorless land topdecks. Is this a point where you either want another cantrip or more lands to compensate?

[Fox]

@Fox: I notice quite a few games here are lost to mana screw on few lands. The very thing that Ponder fixes. I get that you don't want Ponder in Dreadstill, but it's also <20 colored sources with Xerox-ish manabase and colorless land topdecks. Is this a point where you either want another cantrip or more lands to compensate? Multiple losses to not hitting 4 mana, with a bunch of 3-4 mana plays in hand or needing to draw into a 4-mana out.

Not sure which spot you're talking about. One game vs DnT we keep with 2 lands in opener and in like 20 cards saw 2 Wastelands which had to be used for mana rather than hitting Port. Rewatching the game, the main thing I saw was that both Wastelands should have been used for Port destruction rather than mana; but mana missing lands for that long isn't really something that can be overcome. Also in that game I was on 1x Island vs 2x Port so I never ever want to see Ponder anywhere near my hand. On a Stifle deck I would take Opt, Peek, or Clairvoyance before Ponder...and before all that I'd take a third copy of Timeless Dragon, but I don't have the plains numbers to support it...So I'd take an Otawara as the next best thing. I'd have to cut a card though.

^This is an important concept: once you have a critical mass of slots invested in lands (and the Timeless Dragons and the Azcanta and the ability to raw-draw for 2 mana with Shark'nado and Dress Down) you're not going to get more out of 4x slots of Ponder than you would by investing just 1 slot in another land (like Otawara). There's also strategy issues where I want nothing to do with having only 2 land in play -> casting Standstill -> and then drawing Ponders instead of Otawara or Timeless.

Against Slivers I'm comfortable with Crystalline randomly having a favorable lineup vs Teferi. It's more an issue that Crystalline stops Teferi from drawing closer to lands while also delaying their sideways plan. There was also the flanking vs Scroll interaction which was significant. I'm more concerned with combination of Flanking + Shroud + pump lords than my mana coming together. Ponder stealing slots might make fixing 4 mana and finding Verdict better vs Slivers' specific combination of keyword spam, but it will also cost me the ability to make Noughts, use Stifle profitably, use Standstill, and allow hostile Chalice to resolve. The only slots Ponder could occupy is Brainstorms, but Brainstorm occasionally fixes a hand or counters a discard spell.

[FTW]

I should rewatch. Maybe it was just bad luck and less often than I thought. On first watch, it felt like there were multiple spots where he kept needing to draw into 4 lands to enable your out (Verdict, Karn) and couldn't even hit 4 lands in time. Double Port + bad topdecks + Brainstorm lock sure doesn't help. Then drawing Wasteland and tapping for colorless (instead of killing Port for +1 colored mana each turn) didn't help either. There was also a moment where you needed to Sevinne for a 4th land, chose to Brainstorm instead, then Brainstorm locked yourself without land and were too slow to hit 4 mana. That Brainstorm was bad luck, but also seemed to highlight how much the deck struggled to consistently hit 4 mana vs mana denial decks, even though it runs important haymakers at 4 cmc.


Also in that game I was on 1x Island vs 2x Port so I never ever want to see Ponder anywhere near my hand. On a Stifle deck I would take Opt, Peek, or Clairvoyance before Ponder...and before all that I'd take a third copy of Timeless Dragon, but I don't have the plains numbers to support it...So I'd take an Otawara as the next best thing. I'd have to cut a card though.

I said "another cantrip or more lands". Was thinking some blue instant (Consider, Opt). As you've said, Ponder doesn't play well with Stifle or Standstill (or vs Port). Otawara and 3rd Timeless are better though. Why are you on so few lands though? Is 20 enough with Wastelands and multiple 4s? That looks like the land count for a Ponder-based deck with Xerox consistency engine. You would know this best.... but doesn't a non-Ponder deck need more land?

[Fox]

The problem with Sevinne's before Brainstorm [Sliver game] is that it's not able to manipulate the opponent. Based on their play patterns, pauses, and attack patterns you can basically know they have a FoW in hand, and they're about to go up to 3 cards.

In spots like this I always credit my opponents with a god hand and perfect topdeck, so the opponent must have FoW + blue card + they will topdeck either Fluster or Dispute or hardcast'able FoN. My only goal is to resolve Humility next turn without letting the opponent ever make another relevant decision for the rest of the game. My wincon is Teferi uptick -> Brainstorm into land and a random blue card, pass turn -> let them kill Teferi -> end step massacre their god hand with Sevinne's target Teferi -> untap, Humility with FoW to kill their second counterspell -> now they have wasted 6 damage on Teferi, are hellbent, and have nothing but vanilla 1/1s for the rest of the game (and those 3-4 precious Harmonic Slivers aren't going to save them anymore).

That's the line that removes the other player from the game and reduces their entire list to nothing. So when all I have to do is have Brainstorm hit untapped land (odds are 14 to 2 that a land isn't Storm Giants) to guarantee Sevinne's, and if the land isn't white (10 of last 16 land hits are white), then worst case I can necro the Fetch and cast a Humility that loses to double interaction. I am always going to take those odds of Brainstorm seeing a land in that spot, in this matchup.
---
Non-Delver Ponder decks don't do anything meaningful on 2 mana (unless they're putting CB or Hymn on the stack). They're all on that Uro or Narset MindTwister or Grixis Jammy Jams plan; they might also be 4 colors. Not only can they not play spells on 2 mana, but they also have outrageously diffuse color requirements. If you hand those decks 2 random lands and say "play on just these lands for a few turns," they will lose often and they will lose badly.

By contrast Standstill-using decks are designed to operate on as low as two random mana, still being able to use that mana to drive the game plan forward (even if stuck on 2 for a while). Compared to Standstill/Landstill, Dreadstill has more outlets for 2 mana expenditures (Stifle + Dreadnought and EoT Dress Down into Nought). Unlike Standstill/Landstill, we can win very quickly with that 2 mana...and if our hand has no land #3, that card slot in hand might just be a Force effect to help win the fight we're picking with Nought. We also have the option to stall for draw steps if one of our lands is a Wasteland, and that plan is more potent if Stifle is added to the mix. Coming back to Dress Down, no other deck can go from Dress Down EoT just looking for my 3rd land -> untap, guess I missed, oh well....here's 12 to 24 power.

At some point you have to tally up the 2 mana plays, and look at the odds of not getting a 3rd land while still being able to make plays on that 2 mana (most of which help find the 3rd mana). I rarely have a stuck on 1 land game, and I'm just not that concerned about establishing 2 land then being able to make it to land 3 and 4. I'm more worried about flooding out b/c of land 21 at this point (even dropped the 4th Vista b/c of it).

Otawara is at least closer to Spikefield in terms of effect worth casting, but I don't think the extra land slot is needed at this time. The slot it would occupy is held by Brainstorm #4 (currently being tested as Standstill #3.

[DKK]

Otawara is at least closer to Spikefield in terms of effect worth casting, but I don't think the extra land slot is needed at this time. The slot it would occupy is held by Brainstorm #4 (currently being tested as Standstill #3.


After watching the videos and playing some matches of my own I feel Standstill #3 does belong in the deck. I see the reasoning for adding March #2 to the deck, but Standstill feels like a pivotal card that keeps the deck together and you want to draw consistently. Without Ponder (which does make sense) and with just 2 Standstills the amount of card selection/CA for the deck becomes quite thin and we become more reliant on the variance of the draw step.

Some cards that could potentially be worse than Standstill #3 from my perspective:
Search for AzcantaMove Dreadnought #3 to the sideboard (still accessible through Karn), over the Scroll of FateShark Typhoon #2Dress Down

Also, I'd really like to put an Otawara in there somewhere

[Fox]

I wouldn't touch any of those cards in the main. I've tried 2x Nought before, but it doesn't work. Too much tech/specialized cards to not have the other half.

Scroll of Fate isn't getting cut from the board, it's important to have access to 4-of this card (3 and 4 from Karn). Before Astrolabe was banned the 4 copies were 1x Scroll, 1x E Tutor, 2x Karn. This is an incredibly important aspect of competitive deckbuilding in legacy: you need a lot of the do-nothing card, but never be at risk of flooding on it. This is where the vast majority of "brews" fail, losing to their own deck construction b/c of too many hands that do nothing.

Azcanta, Shark'nado, and Dress Down are all working together to increase favorable windows for both 12/12s and Standstills. The Nought and SB Scroll also help with these plans. While increasing Standstill amount is cool, it's less likely to either be castable or succeed with those changes. That 4th Brainstorm slot is much less integral to what the deck does.
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Should be seeing 5-0 league from @Piproberts in next trophy dump. Wins over Gaak, SnT Omni, DnT, Oops, SnT Omni. Version has 4/2 BS/Still split, 1/1 Storm Giant/Otawara split. We'll try to make a VoD of it soon.

[DKK]

Should be seeing 5-0 league from @Piproberts in next trophy dump. Wins over Gaak, SnT Omni, DnT, Oops, SnT Omni. Version has 4/2 BS/Still split, 1/1 Storm Giant/Otawara split. We'll try to make a VoD of it soon.
Nice result, looking forward to the video.

So like I said I took this deck to our FNM last night (18 players). First of all, I really enjoyed playing it. Both because of the nostalgic feel turning 12/12s sideways has and because it plays a number of unknown cards, which ensures some surprised looks at and around the table. I played the 'standard' list with just 2 changes: added Standstill #3 to the main, moved Dress Down to the side and cut the SB Scroll of Fate (never once missed it). Eventually I finished 3-1 losing in the finals to the other 3-0 player.

Some short notes on the games.

Round 1: RG Lands (2-0)
Game 1 I lock him after 3feri'ing his Mox Diamond and some wastes/stifle followed up with Karn for Liquimetal.
+2 Ashiok, +1 Crucible, +1 Relic, +1 Dress Down
-1 Standstill, -1 Scroll, -1 Verdict, -1 Shark, -1 Nought
Game 2 he mulls to 6 and I slam a fast Nought. Afterwards he told me his bottomed card was Force of Vigor.

Round 2: Bant /w black splash (2-0)
Game 1 we trade resources and I slowly get some more cards in hand due to Standstill. At some point I drop 2 Noughts (with 2 Stifle) and he is only able to answer one.
+2 Ashiok, +1 Crucible, +1 Mastery, +1 Relic, +1 Humility, +1 Nodes
-2 Brainstorm, -2 FoN, -1 Nought, -1 Swords, -1 Standstill
Game 2 he wants to set up Uro + Karakas, but next turn I counter Uro, cast Ashiok and start removing part of his library. The game goes long and is close at some points, but eventually I mill him with Ashiok #2.

Round 3: 8Cast (2-0)
Game 1 I he is not really explosive but has a chalice@1 (his plan) and Saga. I remove his chalice with March, Sword 1 token and manage to bounce the other with teferi. A Karn-followup pushes him out of the game.
+1 EE, +1 Dress Down, +1 Mastery, +1 Humility, +1 Nodes
-2 Brainstorm, -2 Standstill, -1 Nought
A quite long game where he opens with t1 chalice @1 (Saga+Petal) and a t2 chalice @1 as well. Instead of removing the chalice with March a neutralize the Saga which sets him back manawise. We enter a long game where Humility shines and Mastery of the Unseen slowly takes over.

Round 4: RG Lands (1-2)
Sidenote: We both did not lose a game before this match. At the last European eternal weekend I defeated him in round 8 setting me safe for top8. A long time skilled lands player.
Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I win off an early dreadnought (with him being surprised after watching the game 2 of the previous game). I sworded his t1 Reclaimer and his t3 20/20 and then kil him in 4 swings.
+1 Humility, +2 Ashiok, +1 Crucible, +1 Dress Down, +1 EE, +1 Relic
-3 Standstill, -2 Verdict, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Scroll
Game 2 I have to mull and get overwhelmed by him doing his lands thing locking me out of the game with Sphere+Port and making multiple Constructs with Saga+Stage.
Game 3 is an interesting one. I open with Island+Relic and pass. He plays fetch into Taiga, Exploration, Forest, Reclaimer (4 cards left). I draw and my hand is Stifle/Nought/Waste/3feri/Ashiok. I decide to go for the 12/12 and hope he does not have Force of Vigor+green in hand, as I can Waste the Maze he can find with Reclaimer and the alternative with holding up stifle and playing a teferi next turn is unsure. Unfortunately he has the Force destroying both my artifacts, and in his own turn plays Sphere of Resistance and gets a Rishadan Port with Reclaimer slowly squeezing me out of the game. I use Wasteland for his consecutive Urza's Saga and there's still one window where I could get to 4 mana if I draw a land, but alas.

Afterthoughts
So overall 3-1 in matches and 7-2 in games. I felt happy with the performance, especially since I was figuring out a lot of strategy while playing. I will revisit my boarding strategy vs Lands (interesting how others approach this matchup). Some things I'm interested in as well:
- Why a split of Powder Keg and EE, in which situations do you prefer either?
- March felt really solid. I could envision a 3/3 split with Swords, potentially putting Swords #4 in the SB over the Porphyry Nodes (which in all fairness felt a bit slow).

[Fox]

Nice work on the 3-1. Sounds like you made a lot of Noughts with Stifle; just be aware that this is usually incorrect and correlates highly with losing. Lines like these are usually reserved for decks that can't defend themselves.

In your last game vs Lands on 2 lands it is far more important to protect Wasteland [as a mana source] with Stifle and draw into lands with the Relic. You had the ability to turn off FoV alt-cast in hand with Teferi passive and the ability to ignore FoV with Ashiok. At no point was it your job to be the beatdown. You did shoot yourself in the foot by taking out Scroll vs FoV; can't FoV a morph/manifest.

In terms of EE vs Keg:
-if sunburst advantageous (Sphere, Thalia) -> EE main
-if enchants -> EE
-if they donating colors (Urborg, Yavimaya, Moon) -> EE
-Choke users donate colors, they can't help themselves -> EE
-manlands -> Keg
-artifact lands -> Keg
-sometimes you bring in both, but more common to leave one in the wish zone.

Scroll of Fate is one of the more common Karn wish targets. Not the best idea to remove your best enabler with possibility of Noughts + Karn hand, vs removal, vs Chalice.

Porphyry Nodes is another card that doesn't get cut. Normal legacy play patterns need to be unlearned - stop trying to answer things 1 for 1, instead escalate the situation [i.e. nice TNN, much wow -> Nodes]. You are going to regret having a spot removal instead of a 1 mana non-targeting Abyss vs Strix-type spam, Mother of Runes, Wirewood Symbiote, TNN, Emmy (also can play Nodes off SnT), Progenitus, Safekeeper, etc. Don't reward people for playing effects like these. Also you can't Sevinne's a spot removal.

3/3 Plow/March is ambitious b/c Delver exists. Would be fine if WotC bans Daze, or nobody in a local meta ever plays Delver.

Against RG Lands (non-Mulch): +2 Ashiok, +1 Relic, +1 Crucible, +1 EE, +1 Humility. -2 Standstill, -1 FoW, -1 Nought, -1 Plow. Last cut would be Plow if no other dudes like Reclaimer, otherwise -1 Verdict. Dress Down would be in the main.

[Rood]

I will be posting a link to my youtube channel as well I have many UW and UWr dreadstill videos on my channel! Cheers long live Dreadstill

[DKK]

Nice work on the 3-1. Sounds like you made a lot of Noughts with Stifle; just be aware that this is usually incorrect and correlates highly with losing. Lines like these are usually reserved for decks that can't defend themselves.

Thanks, and thanks for your reply. Note that in the games I cast Nought with Stifle (4 times):
- r1g2: (early game) my opponent mulled and I had Force backup
- r2g1: (late game) my opponent had 1 card and I played 2 Noughts so he could not answer both
- r4g1: (early game) I take on the aggressive role after my opponent mulled to 5
- r4g3: (early game) is an interesting one from a meta-perspective (which role), see below.

I strongly believe the first three situations are correct from a strategic perspective, the fourth one is more questionable (hence my more detailed description of the situation), but given how the game played out felt like the correct line in hindsight with all available knowledge (going for the win with a certain % over choosing to wait and seeing the win% slowly decline).


In your last game vs Lands on 2 lands it is far more important to protect Wasteland [as a mana source] with Stifle and draw into lands with the Relic. You had the ability to turn off FoV alt-cast in hand with Teferi passive and the ability to ignore FoV with Ashiok. At no point was it your job to be the beatdown. You did shoot yourself in the foot by taking out Scroll vs FoV; can't FoV a morph/manifest.

Note that the line you propose would result in not being able to cast Teferi, because of the Sphere my opponent played next turn. That line depends on drawing extra lands with Relic and the draw step, while facing an 'active' Reclaimer fetching Wasteland/Port.

Also, while FoV can't hit a morph/manifest, it can take down the Scroll (and the nought once flipped).


Scroll of Fate is one of the more common Karn wish targets. Not the best idea to remove your best enabler with possibility of Noughts + Karn hand, vs removal, vs Chalice.

This feels like a really expensive and slow line. Is Scroll usually the 2nd card you wish for with Karn? Basically every time my go-to card the first time is a piece of hate or Liquimetal Coating to start locking the opponent. Like I mentioned I have not missed it yet.


Against RG Lands (non-Mulch): +2 Ashiok, +1 Relic, +1 Crucible, +1 EE, +1 Humility. -2 Standstill, -1 FoW, -1 Nought, -1 Plow. Last cut would be Plow if no other dudes like Reclaimer, otherwise -1 Verdict. Dress Down would be in the main.
Looks largely in line with what I did (at least what to bring in). I disagree with boarding out Plow and keeping in Verdict. Resolving a 4cc sorcery is typically a challenge vs. lands, while Plow is a 1 mana answer to Marit Lage and turn 1 Reclaimer. Overall, increasing the average cmc against a mana denial deck feels counterproductive.

[Fox]

In the Relic spot raw drawing is the best way to hit lands or Azcanta or Timeless or Shark or Dress Down or Brainstorm. You should be close to 25 live topdecks to or towards land. There is upside ofc to going for the quick Nought...if Relic wasn't in play. You have to know FoV is a 3-4x, and if they have it you lose your Nought and cripple your ability to hit lands. Can't be pursuing both plans at the same time if you don't have FoW in hand.

What to wish with Karn depends on their deck, their hand size, and what is in our hand. In practice, Coating is one of the rarest wish targets b/c if they can answer Karn the Coating is unlikely to do anything. Focus on exhausting the opponent by forcing trades instead of rewarding them with favorable interaction windows.

[DKK]

You have to know FoV is a 3-4x.
This is where your logic is flawed. Most Lands decks only run 2, including this one. Look at mtgtop8 if you doubt this statement.

My issue with the line is that you basically do nothing for the turn while they are developing their board state and you can't counter anything they do in their following turn. Using Relic to draw a card would be a consideration of you desperately need a land, but comes at the cost of sacrificing a live piece of disruption for any Loam-shenanigans.

[Fox]

This is where your logic is flawed. Most Lands decks only run 2, including this one. Look at mtgtop8 if you doubt this statement.

My issue with the line is that you basically do nothing for the turn while they are developing their board state and you can't counter anything they do in their following turn. Using Relic to draw a card would be a consideration of you desperately need a land, but comes at the cost of sacrificing a live piece of disruption for any Loam-shenanigans.

So it depends on what the game actually looks like. What was their first land, did they have a Mox or Explorarion, when did you have Relic & Stifle/Dreadnought in hand. The main thing I'm looking at is a basic Island, a nonbasic they can't kill (b/c Stifle in hand), and one blue mana away from slamming Ashiok (plays around FoV and mana denials for rest of game) and longer term thoughts of Teferi shutting off pitch-FoV before needing to go for Nought. Based on a turn 1 Relic, that's the gameplan I'd generally try to follow.

It's fine to do the Nought all-in (hoping to draw FoW) but there you'd want to sandbag Relic until turn 3.

[Fox]

New Capenna should be fully spoiled now. The commander card links will work correctly soon.
UW/UWr:
Jailbreak uhh target your Murktide...I'll bring back...Teferi or Shark'Nado...seems fair. Probably more fun than good, but a Burning Wish target. Overpriced at $6.

U:
Out of the Way - technically SB playable, can live in your cube. Cost under 50cents.
Slip Out the Back - make a Dreadnought, but unlike Vision Charm it doesn't 1-shot Saga, DDFT, or High Tide. Would have permanently wiped Kaldra before short-sighted phasing rules update. Costs 50cents.
Even the Score - step 1 cast Standstill. step 2 have 4 or more lands. step 3 cast any instant on their EoT -> alt-cast Even the Score. It's a meme, but no opposing strategy can hide from this goldfish. This card is sitting around $5.50, it is maybe worth $1.

UR:
Torch Breath - costs :r: to kill Hullbreacher through Chalice, very good vs Echo cannons. Good against UWr MindTwister deck (Teferi, Narset). Still a Kaervek's Torch vs non-blue, except can't target the player. Seems slightly underpriced at 50cents.
Cryptic Pursuit was amazing till it died to Pyroblast...This card is worth maybe 50cents, rather than the $4 price right now.

UB:
Extract the Truth best enchant removal in UB I think. Under 50cents.

Karnboard:
Unlicensed Hearse - reasonable to own a copy for Karn target, appropriate price $1.
Currency Converter this card seems very good, and you'd only need 1x for Saga or Karn wish. Modern can't touch this card so price probably drops, currently $6. I like this card more than Retro, though I'd still rather have a cantripping yard hate in the slot.

Aeon Bridge:
Fight Rigging - works in Aeon Bridge, likely better than flooding out on a 4th copy of Mosswort Bridge. Overpriced at $1.50, but I doubt you'll ever want more than 1x.

Random shenanigans:
Corpse Explosion - double off-color means it's unplayable. It is however funny and templated to beat Surgical. Currently $2, worth maybe 50cents.
Bouncer's Beatdown - getting closer to real green removal; still not quite there. Card is under 50cents, which is appropriate.
Prizefight warmer...
Fatal Grudge - you can build things with this, probably not Dreadnought things. A playset costs $1 total.
Artifact Mutation double off color, but a playable card. Probably overpriced at $1, but wouldn't be the worst thing to own 2 copies.
Aura Mutation same idea as above. Not worth $2.50.
Errant, Street Artist Not a whole lot to do with this card and currently overpriced at $2.50, expect a drop to 50cents or so, at which point a playset would be reasonable to acquire.

Miss:
An Offer You Can't Refuse - the card you want to play over this is Invasive Surgery...so it's actually an offer you can refuse.