[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist [Archive] - Page 3

kilukru

09-02-2008, 06:01 PM

So im back to the drug called magic and decided to go the dreadstill way, the deck look like a blast to play and I own most of the money card of the deck so an easy choice.

Im going Ur (only got my hand on one goyf so g gonna wait) and I will have little to no time to playtest before my first tourny and I was wondering if anyone tested magnus of the moon as a sideboard option.

From a theorical point of view it should greatly increase the MU against deck like landstill and thresh with little harm done to ourself (beside hitting UU for CB). Even more, from what I read, our worst enemy is kgrip, and most deck splash for them, and where there splash, there's dual, so magnus could kill those splash. Add a 2/2 body to that and you got yourself a nice little beater if your forced to go the control way.

So anyone tried it?

The_Red_Panda

09-02-2008, 06:21 PM

If you don't have tarmogoyf, I would strongly suggest going Uw for the Oblivion rings main. They improve a lot of matchups, and if you're solo red you have no artifact and enchantment removal. I'm pretty sure I've expounded somewhere in this thread on what I believe to be the reasons for having removal for artifacts and enchantments.

The Ur version has lots of nifty tricks, but in general these tricks are sideboard material at best, unless your meta is all aggro (firespout) or mostly blue-based control (REB main). A Uwr version of this deck could be pretty cool though. Firespouts/pyroclasms in the board, plus obivion rings main, and you still keep REBs. Possibly run jotun grunt. Could be fun.

In case anyone is wondering, I've moved away from saying 3 color iterations of dreadstill are a bad idea because I found out firespout is solid vs. dragonstompy. Moons are less of a big deal when you have removal for them, and I've been able to reliably fit 4 islands into my maindeck. I worry less about matchups when I board more than half my sideboard in against them.

Desp

09-03-2008, 09:11 AM

My questions will be the same as last time so how to play to have the best chances, what side in and side out and what target with needles, meddling mages against Burn, Enchantress and Rock ( I know that MU sux but any way to get a chance ) with UW Dreadstill with tutors , swords and without rings ?

J.V.

09-03-2008, 10:47 AM

Burn: You want counterbalance/top down as soon as possible and early Noughts are generally good too. Keep them off green sources so they can't grip your stuff. Needle always goes on Vexing Shusher. Don't bother with Meddling Mage, it WILL get burned away.
Sideboarding (from your list):
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Trickbind
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Chill
+1 Pithing Needle

Enchantress:
Pray... the matchup is near unwinnable.

The Rock:
Counter Relevent Stuff, Get CB/T Online. Standstill is your best friend here.
-3 Daze
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Trickbind
+3 Meddling Mage
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Swords to Plowshares
Mage usually goes in this order, Krosan Grip, Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf, obviously there are game situations where you switch it up. Needle Goes on Deed.

Reagens

09-03-2008, 11:54 AM

J.V.

09-03-2008, 12:08 PM

I find it odd that according to the above enchantress is near unwinnable.
Maybe the version I test against is vastly different from enchantress in your metagame, but I doubt it.
I'm not saying it's a good match-up but I think 40-60 at the very least is attainable and with enough testing you can gain an advantage with experience. Not that much changes after sideboard because the hatred on both sides more or less equals out.
Key to the match-up in my opinion is keeping enchantress effects from the table. Once the have one resolved you need to be very quick/lucky. Another key is getting first turn. In my testing games you can start are very winnable.
Should enchantress really be a big concern in your meta I think a version of dreadstill running cunning wish and having tranquil domain in the side should give better chance although I didn't have the opportunity to test this as of yet.

Well very few Dreadstill players play Cunning Wish, so Dreadstill player's (in general) Best weapons against Enchantress are Fast Noughts which the have a ton of answers too (especially post side) and K-Grip/Echoing Truth. The problem here is the have far too many must counter/destroy/bounce cards and you simply don't have enough enough answers. The other big problem this even applies to Wish->Mass Enchantment Kill is Karmic Justice which simply isn't good enough to warrant a counter but shuts down the destroy stuff plan. On a seperate note the matchup was significantly more winable before the printing of Runed Halo which can basically shut off all our win-cons.

asdljas

09-03-2008, 04:13 PM

J.V., what is your plan to win against the 'goyf sligh matchup? Pre-board, I cannot seem to win at all without an early Dreadnought AND wasteland on Taiga's (they just grip him).

J.V.

09-03-2008, 04:16 PM

J.V., what is your plan to win against the 'goyf sligh matchup? Pre-board, I cannot seem to win at all without an early Dreadnought AND wasteland on Taiga's (they just grip him).

CB/T. I actually consider it a favorable matchup. You can match there goyfs and counter their relevant things as for grip yeah its a beating but you can definitely play around it. And post side, BEB and Needle come in to deal with pesky things like shushers. Also like you mentioned their deck is land light so mana disruption is often a really good strategy.

Ch0z3n

09-04-2008, 02:24 AM

Ok, so I realize that this is some kind of bastardization of dreaded fish and dreadstill, but still, can y'all help me with this a little? I started working on this a little after doing some testing with countersliver. The problem I had with normal dreadstill is that I rarely could get sufficient board position to want to use standstills proactively. Aether Vial solves this problem with flying colors. Turn 1 vial turn 2 standstill can put a ton of pressure on the opponent to have to break through them quickly.

I am going into an entirely unknown meta and black isn't an option because I don't own underground seas nor any of the cards that you would use with them (thoughseize, extirpate, confidant, jailer, planar void etc.)

2 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island

3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [PS] Meddling Mage

3 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill

SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I'm running green as much for grips as I am for goyfs. I would rather not run goyfs because I don't especially want to spend 30$ each on them but sadly there isn't really much that compares to them, especially at 2xx (for aether vials).

I was thinking maybe dropping green for red so I can have pyroclasms in the sideboard and maybe REBs.

-4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Jotun Grunt
+2 Epocrasite

Are there any really good 2 drops that I am missing? Serra Avenger is a total champ but since it requires fully half of my white sources to hard cast, I don't want to increase them too much.

Any and all suggestions (except black) are welcome! Even if they don't make the final cut, at least it will be some foot for thought.

Koala

09-04-2008, 12:14 PM

I have been testing a list here on Brazil, and a i finally found a good list.I made i Top 2 on a 70 players chamo, and a Top4 on a 30 Good players champ with this list. I already try to use counterbalance, standstill or even grinder, but it doesn't work so well. I made that list thinking about the number of aggro decks (i mean goyf) and combo decks here in Brazil. Here it goes:

UGBide:wink:

3 Trinket Mage
3 DreadNought
4 Stifle
2 Tombstalker
4 Goyf
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 E.Explosives
2 Sensei Top
4 B.Storm
1 Wipe away
3 Duress
3 Smother
1 Pernicious Deed

19 lands + 1 academy ruins

SB

2 P.Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trick bind
1 T.Mage
1 Dread nought
1 E.Truth
X xxxxxxx

*:

1 - i really hated to use counterbalance.Really. The best effort that i did to my counterbalances was remove it out of the game (fow, obvious):laugh:

2 - Goyf and Nought i haven't explain why, but tombstalker it's the guts to win. Tombstalker(my sweet Batman) don't care for smother or deeds

3 - Goblins is becomig a "little" problem to me. My goyfs didn't do anything after 3 turn passed..The only way to win the match is survive enough to my batman's attack 4 time or do a Nought/Stifle turn 2 or 3...I got no idea what i have to do...Help????:cry:

4 - 2 Trickbind,1 T.Mage,1 Dreadnought in SB: Yes, Aggro kills

5 - I just love this deck...

Can someone give a tip or a opinion about it???

FeFeTeam

The new kids on the block

Maagler

09-04-2008, 12:19 PM

@Koala

That is a good list but it is not a dreadstill deck. That is a dreaded fish deck, the difference mainly being that the dreaded fish decks do not run standstill and many do not run counterbalance.

Also welcome to the source!

Reagens

09-04-2008, 12:25 PM

I understand the Halo argument.
He played that as well (post side I believe). It was a difficulty when I encountered it, but both tarmogoyf and dreadnought are threats to them.
Against enchantress it will be very unlikely for me to counter their halo's, because they can still guess the wrong threat and some times sets up the occasional end of turn grip and attack for the win. What is a must counter is their card drawing effects (enchantress+sylvan library). Which in itself should give sufficient time to get a decent board position.
Karmic justice is also a problem that has proven almost impossible to solve. I try to wait for a good opportunity to bounce their protection (moat, halo,...) and swing for lethal but I have to admit I'm to slow most of the time.
Why by the way is the cunning wish version not played? What are the advantages for other strategies?

Koala

09-04-2008, 12:43 PM

klaus

09-04-2008, 01:14 PM

@Ch0z3n

Where is Academy Ruins?
2 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
[B]In case you don't have access to at least 3 Wastelands, I would recommend dropping the Standstill plan altogether. Cause your Landstill MU will be near unwinnable then. - here are some successful DreadedFish lists: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreaded+Fish&format=Legacy

3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf-------------------If you don't own any Goyfs yet, go 2 Jotun Grunt, 2 Epochrasites instead.
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [PS] Meddling Mage-----------------hardly anyone plays Meddling Mage
in the main in 1.5 - they're just not efficient most of the time. I could see 3 Trinket Mage replacing the Meddling Mages. Also you could go down to 1 Enlightened Tutor then, which frees up 2 more slots. Epochrasite is actually really good. You could play 2-3 if you want more beaters.
3 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor-----------------s.a.
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze----------------------------again, I wouldn't play Daze without Wastelands.
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill

SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares------------- play them in the main!!
You need them to be able to drop your Standstill reliably.
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance------------------without Wasteland, Daze..move it to the main.
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top------------either you move it to the MB.
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt-------------------With Trinket Mage you can go down to 3.
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

More thoughts:

Actually you don't need more than 4 beaters beside Dreadnought - don't forget Factory is a beater, too. If you're running less than 10 creatures, I feel Aether Vial is somewhat out of place.
+ Consider a singleton Vedalken Shackles.
--------------------------------------------------
Here is a pretty solid UW Dreadstill list by Elfrago:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18906

Greetz,
Klaus

The_Red_Panda

09-04-2008, 02:00 PM

See, the real problem with that list is that you're trying to go Uwg. The advantages from the two colors overlap, and you could probably get just about the same results from a Ug or Uw version. If you're going to splash a third color, you should make it black or red.

As for putting Countertop in the board, that's an interesting idea. For a nought deck that's looking to do the quick beat plan with tarmos and angels and shit, I could see just trying to out-aggro your opponent fast, kinda like a sligh feel but with counters to disrupt the opposing game plan. Then in matchups where you want the counterbalance, you board it in and wreak havoc with it. The only problem I see with that is that in the majority of your matches, you will benefit hugely from CB/Top, so it's not worth not having it game one. Still, it's good to see somebody thinking in other directions.

@Cunning Wish: too slow. Pay three for the wish, and then more for whatever you find? I don't like that idea. One of my favorite parts of this deck is that the only cards that cost three that I really want to cast are out of the sideboard, and are completely back-breaking when they resolve. Everything else pretty much costs 2 or less, with the exception of Trinket Mage, which I like less and less every time I play this deck. The curve needs to stay way low to the ground.

@Ch0z3n

Where is Academy Ruins?
2 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [b] Tundra
2 [b] Tropical Island
In case you don't have access to at least 3 Wastelands, I would recommend dropping the Standstill plan altogether. Cause your Landstill MU will be near unwinnable then. - here are some successful DreadedFish lists: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy

Uhhh Most people don't maindeck ruins. I know I never have. It isn't worth it as a one-of that you have no way of recurring. The deck already runs 8 lands that produce only colorless, out of the 21 that I run. I don't need to pollute that ratio any more, and certainly not for a land that recurs all of Top, Nought, and Explosives/Needle, at the cost of card advantage.

As for the wasteland thing, they are pretty crucial to the land-still match up, but fast noughts with a little backup often work better. I'm much more inclined to try to race landstill aggro-style than I am to play a long game of wasteland vs. factory. If only because I hate the draw bracket. This doesn't mean the standstill plan should be tossed out though, as that plan works great against a ton of stuff that ISN'T landstill. That's where you want the standstills.

3 - Goblins is becomig a "little" problem to me. My goyfs didn't do anything after 3 turn passed..The only way to win the match is survive enough to my batman's attack 4 time or do a Nought/Stifle turn 2 or 3...I got no idea what i have to do...Help????

Splash red for pyroclasm or firespout, preferably spout. Or run Engineered plague in your sideboard. Goblins isn't so terrible if you can either land a nought early, or get some huge card advantage off of a Firespout/other board sweeper. If you can make goblins pick up their board at least once, you pretty much win. They can't come back from the loss of cards/tempo before you nought them to death.

klaus

09-04-2008, 03:02 PM

Uhhh Most people don't maindeck ruins. I know I never have. It isn't worth it as a one-of that you have no way of recurring. The deck already runs 8 lands that produce only colorless, out of the 21 that I run. I don't need to pollute that ratio any more, and certainly not for a land that recurs all of Top, Nought, and Explosives/Needle, at the cost of card advantage.

Out of the past ~20 Dreadstill lists that top8ed at larger events, 40% were maindecking Academy Ruins (>60% counting 2color versions):
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreadstill&format=Legacy
(use the "compare selected decks" function if you don't believe me)
Hell, even DreadedFish lists run that card.

Regular LS lists play Academy Ruins almost solely to recur EE. Speaking of card disadvantage here borders to insanity.
Also being able to recur your #1 kill condition, and all of your toolbox stuff including Tormod's Crypt (this tec wins games, dude) post board is huuge, to say the least.

Either way, I'd cut a Wasteland or a Factory before I'd dare to touch those Ruins.

As for the wasteland thing, they are pretty crucial to the land-still match up, but fast noughts with a little backup often work better.

You're missing on some really important aspects here:
Wasteland is to most U/X/X Dread_xyz lists an auto-include. Wasteland is the single reason Daze can still shine in the midgame. It also complements the mana denial plan by complementing stifle on fetch things: Not only do you slow your opponent down [helping you to race your opponent], you are able to keep him of his hate colors (%G->Grip, etc..).
That strategy is the perfect fit for this archetype, because you really only need 2-3 mana sources to be able to function fully.

Koala

09-04-2008, 04:02 PM

Splash red for pyroclasm or firespout, preferably spout. Or run Engineered plague in your sideboard. Goblins isn't so terrible if you can either land a nought early, or get some huge card advantage off of a Firespout/other board sweeper. If you can make goblins pick up their board at least once, you pretty much win. They can't come back from the loss of cards/tempo before you nought them to death.

Splash pyroclasm and PoP is a huge advantage against Goblins and landstill...The big problem is not to use P.Deed+Smother+duress. The match against Rock and Trash would become harder without some response to Goyf or any other man. Fact:decks with goyf>decks with goblin. I know you have the right thought, but i don't wanna splash R or W to it...infest it's a great mass removal B against goblin, but only against goblin(or zombie tokens)...

Rood

09-04-2008, 04:56 PM

Just as klaus has said, Mage is pretty terrible in the maindeck seeing as you really won't need it until postboard. I couldn't ever justify cutting Wasteland from this deck it's just too damn good. I'm actually going to test going up to 4 Wastelands instead of 3 for the time being just to see if it is alot stronger. Wastelands+Factory are crucial though if you want to abuse your Standstills throughly, that's why most DS builds try not to get too crazy with their mana bases.

The_Red_Panda

09-04-2008, 05:30 PM

I marked the every deck on the first page, thats the top thirty on deckcheck, and when compared only 33% of them ran ruins. I'll give you the fact that that's much higher than I expected, but I still remain completely NOT in favor of the card. The only thing I can truly see myself recurring with it is Engineered explosives. The ability to recur dreadnoughts would be nice, but stifle effects come in limited quantity. I have a strong doubt that this card actually plays into the success of the deck in general.

I will, however, throw one into my deck and see if it tests well. I'm not expecting much, but I might be surprised.

Splash pyroclasm and PoP is a huge advantage against Goblins and landstill...The big problem is not to use P.Deed+Smother+duress. The match against Rock and Trash would become harder without some response to Goyf or any other man. Fact:decks with goyf>decks with goblin. I know you have the right thought, but i don't wanna splash R or W to it...infest it's a great mass removal B against goblin, but only against goblin(or zombie tokens)...

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to with PoP, but I'm assuming Price of Progress, which could potentially be quite damaging to you. If I was going to put cards in for the landstill matchup, It would probably be red blasts, to try to win counter wars. Also, I would prefer Eplauge to Infest, just because a plauge on the table against goblins pretty much grinds them to a halt until they can find an answer for it. There's a chance, however, that they might come back from an infest.

I can understand wanting an answer to goyf, but do you really want it to be deed? That seems like it has the potential to make you pick up some of your own board.

You're missing on some really important aspects here:
Wasteland is to most U/X/X Dread_xyz lists an auto-include. Wasteland is the single reason Daze can still shine in the midgame. It also complements the mana denial plan by complementing stifle on fetch things: Not only do you slow your opponent down [helping you to race your opponent], you are able to keep him of his hate colors (%G->Grip, etc..).
That strategy is the perfect fit for this archetype, because you really only need 2-3 mana sources to be able to function fully.

You're preaching to the choir. I have 4 in my maindeck, my list is just a little farther up this page.

EDIT: actually, my list is like 3 pages back. There's been some action in this thread of late, that I had forgot about. At any rate, I wrote a little report up in the same post. It was fun.

When you said your landstill matchup would be near un-winnable, I assumed you were going to try to have a factory war under the standstill. Given that most Landstill lists only run 1 wasteland now for the crucible, I figured you were saying that the plan would be to go factory beatdown and pray you could keep theirs off the table. That seemed like a bad idea. If you're thinking of using them only for color disruption, I can whole-heartedly agree.

klaus

09-04-2008, 06:16 PM

I The only thing I can truly see myself recurring with [A. Ruins] is Engineered explosives.
Pithing Needle is a superb target against Landstill/ITF - they have multiple ways to get rid of it (EE, Deed, Wish->artifact removal, Grip)- so recuring helps.

Also recurring Crypts is THE shit [..or so I've heard :wink: ] against Ichorid, AggroLoam, ITF, 43Land, Eternal Garden, Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, (Welder) Survival and the likes.

Ch0z3n

09-04-2008, 06:21 PM

Thought about the suggestions a bit and came up with this. I am not very happy with it at the moment. 9 non-blue lands seems like a ton an I would really like a 4th white land, preferably tundra, so casting avenger isn't a pipe dream. I just moved the StoPs to the main but didnt take anything out yet so it is 64 cards right now. I am not really sure what to take out. I almost want to say the tutors, but that would severely diminish the power of top, ring, and EE as well as hurting counter-top out of the SB.

I was thinking also that I might want to put maybe 2 azorius guildmage in the MB since, for a slightly steep price, they can do some useful things and at worst they are a bear I can drop through vials or I can pitch to FoW.

I have counter-top in the SB because while it is very effective against a lot of the stronger decks in legacy, I don't actually know if I will be playing against them. Apparently in Florida people don't believe in eternal formats so the closest one I could find is an hour away in a small town once a month and gets like 12 people. Because of that, their decks might not even have names, much less be tier 1 or 2 decks who are mostly made of 0-2cc cards. That is another reason why I am hesitant on the wastelands, who knows what kind of mana base they might have. That is also why I opted for a more aggressive deck instead of the more traditional 4 dreadnoughts and maybe 3-4 other beaters (plus factorys) because the extra aggression can often just quickly bypass trash decks, not allowing them time to develop.

I originally had the StoPs in the SB because goyfs and avengers bypass standstill via aether vial so I didn't especially need a clear board to drop standstill.

The other glaring thing that I notice about the SB is that once I take out the K-grips, I don't know what the best option is for artifact/enchantment removal.

3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island

3 [FUT] Epochrasite
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [SC] Stifle

SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast

klaus

09-04-2008, 07:00 PM

Here's the list I'm testing atm.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Volcanic Island (EE@3)

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought (could become 3 + an additional Trickbind)
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vedalken Shackles
(I might be squeezing in a random Jotun Grunt :laugh: )

SB:
1 Circle of Protection: Red (tutorable, comes in against Burn.dec, DS, Gobbos, red-heavy AggroLoam) I'm not sold on it, though.
1 Crucible of Worlds (tutorable+secret tech VS LS,ITF, Stax etc..)
2 Disenchant (I'm aware of the fact that it's sucks against CB. It takes care of any other target though..)
1 Serenity (tutorable - comes in against DS, FS, Stax, Enchantress..)
3 Meddling Mage (3 is the perfect number!)
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 STP (no room in the main..)
1 EE
2 flexslots
----------------
Coming from "traditional" UWb LS, I feel the deck performs inferior regarding its consistency. I feel it simply doesn't win as frequently.
Other than LS it has more positive MUs. But then again it loses to Krosan Grip - a card that even AggroDecks came to maindeck by now:mad: .

Rood

09-05-2008, 12:52 AM

New card releasing from the new set: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78183&d=1220521122
I think it has potential in a UB Shell with Academy and Trinket Mage to abuse it some.

// Lands
4 [ARE] Island (8)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1x New Card

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

I'm not sure the card will be very good, I'm just saying the fact it kills oposing Noughts/Factories/Goyfs is pretty damn awesome. Also if you can get Academy+this going it will basically kill most relevant threats you will face.

The_Red_Panda

09-05-2008, 01:00 AM

Does that say "destroy target non-black creature"?

I think it might be, but I'm rusty on my [whatever that language is]. If that's the case, that could be a pretty big boon for the black version.

I just hope the red one isn't a shock. Maybe R, artifact, 1RT, sac: Destroy target land.

That could be plausible right? And I might actually run one of those if they print it. Here's hoping.

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 08:06 AM

Yes, that is what it says. If you look in the spoiler section it has it translated:

Executioner's Capsule B
Artifact Common
1{B}, {T}, Sacrifice Executioner's Capsule: Destroy target nonblack creature.
Illus. Warren Mahy

The blue one is draw 2 cards though the cost to play it and pop it in 1 turn is 2UU so that is kind of steep.

The_Red_Panda

09-05-2008, 10:31 AM

Plus you can't trinket for it. I was thinking of this as more of a utility one-of, something you could pull out with a trinket, and then pop to kill goyfs. If the red one is good, I might even start running that academy ruins everybody says is good.

klaus

09-05-2008, 11:09 AM

jazzykat

09-05-2008, 11:23 AM

Is there any firm agreement over the number of Naughts? Is it 3 or 4?

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 11:28 AM

Most people tent towards 4, especially if it is your only legit win condition (no, trinket mages and factories don't count). I usually run other wins like goyf which don't require stifle to work so I usually run 3. This also allows me to use stifles more aggressively to force mana/color screws or just mess up their day. Then again, if you read through my posts you will realize that I am not half as experienced with the deck as some of the other people on here, so I may entirely be in the wrong. I guess it comes down to preference.

thefreakaccident

09-05-2008, 11:47 AM

I really like Rood's Ub build.... I was playing a very similar configuration a little whiles back for the MD.

I am not going to lie though, I hate the sideboard... I was playing something like this:

sideboard//
1 tormod's crypt
4 extirpate
4 engineered plague
1 pithing needle (I run one in the MD)
1 engineered explosives (I run one in the MD)
4 annul (this card is fabulous)

I only run one crypt in the board because pate is better, and it is tutorable... I run 5 GY hate cards in the board b/c recursive strategies really hurt this deck a lot.

Annul can be disk in the right meta (lots of challice agro), but it is slow and does hardly anything against some decks.

The other cards are self-explanatory I would think.

klaus

09-05-2008, 12:10 PM

J.V.

09-05-2008, 12:21 PM

So you are willing to fold to a resolved Humility?

You run Mishra's Factory, you don't scoop to humility at all.

Reagens

09-05-2008, 12:25 PM

You run Mishra's Factory, you don't scoop to humility at all.

That's a flawed argument. Decks running humility are geared to operating under humility. Dreadstill does not have anything besides factories. Your opponent will not be likely to play humility unless the board is favorable to him/her. Thus a solution to humility I think is needed.

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 12:32 PM

I'm pretty sure that the red one won't be a shock because it would be strictly inferior to pyrite spellbomb. Maybe if it cost R and the activation was just T, but then it would be an artifact seal of fire.

also, decks that run humility (e.g. landstill) run crucible so they can recur their factories and wasteland. So under very few circumstances do you not scoop to humility if you don't have a way to deal with it.

fun fact: a 4/4 epocrasite is still a 4/4 with humility down and if its played from not your hand with humility already down, its still 4/4 because it comes into play with them rather than getting them after it comes into play (and therefore losing the ability). sadly, humility does muck up the recursion.

Double post merged. Use that "Edit" button in the future. - Nihil

thefreakaccident

09-05-2008, 01:15 PM

So you are willing to fold to a resolved Humility?

That's why you would run annul....

Also, if it is a huge concern, add an additional splash for green... it isn't that much of a deal (I am the only person in my meta who plays humility anyways).

EDIT: but humility does rape this deck in general.

klaus

09-05-2008, 01:24 PM

That's a flawed argument. Decks running humility are geared to operating under humility. Dreadstill does not have anything besides factories. Your opponent will not be likely to play humility unless the board is favorable to him/her. Thus a solution to humility I think is needed.

I second this.
Thx for backup :cool:

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 01:38 PM

the question was do you scoop to a resolved humility. annul doesn't help once humility is resolved.

The_Red_Panda

09-05-2008, 02:18 PM

what makes you think you can't Trinket-tutor it?

The blue one costs 2. Trinket mage only tutors for cards with CC less than or equal to 1. 2>1. When I said you can't trinket for it I wasn't referring to the black one, just the blue one.

That's a flawed argument. Decks running humility are geared to operating under humility. Dreadstill does not have anything besides factories. Your opponent will not be likely to play humility unless the board is favorable to him/her. Thus a solution to humility I think is needed.

So you are willing to fold to a resolved Humility?

the question was do you scoop to a resolved humility. annul doesn't help once humility is resolved.

There was a rather lengthy conversation earlier in this thread about just such a topic, the necessity of artifact and enchantment removal. It basically boiled down to a flame war based on color splashes. Lets please not go there again.

I'm pretty sure that the red one won't be a shock because it would be strictly inferior to pyrite spellbomb. Maybe if it cost R and the activation was just T, but then it would be an artifact seal of fire.

That's reassuring I guess. I wonder what the red one's gonna be. I'm still betting the green one is a giant growth, which kinda sucks, but that's just thematically correct I guess. I've got my fingers crossed for a good effect on the red bauble.

SuckerPunch

09-05-2008, 05:19 PM

How about a build with Vision Charm and Tombstalker? Two fetchlands and a Charm makes for a Tombstalker on turn two. A 5/5 flyer isn't a 12/12 trampler, but it ain't shabby, either.

Something like this:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

Now this build is a whole lot more aggressive and less controllish than builds with Standstills and Countertop; it's closer to something like Eva Green. This is intentional.

I've been trying out something similar to this, with my own tweaks of course.

I'm running Phyrexian Negator and Lightning Greaves. When you are running so many very high powered creatures vulnerable to StP and such, giving them all both haste and untargetability for just 2 mana is a bargain.

Negator might be iffy depending on your meta. But I like it.

The build isn't anywhere close to tuned yet, otherwise I would post it.

But anyone else try out something similar?

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 06:32 PM

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with colors, well except blue. His solution might very well be to bounce it with chain of vapor or echoing truth then push lethal damage through or counter it when it is replayed.

No one asked if it is needed. If his game plan is just not to plan, be is because he doesn't have room or no one plays it in his meta then that's fine, the answer would be: yes, he is willing to scoop to a resolved humility. Not having an answer to every question is fine, so long as you know that the question exists.

I did some more tinkering with the mana and SB. Still don't know what to take out of the main. Any suggestions?

4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

HammafistRoob

09-05-2008, 08:55 PM

Ch0z3n

09-05-2008, 10:32 PM

I think that is given away by the lack of standstill... goyf sligh isnt goyf sligh without goyfs...

The_Red_Panda

09-05-2008, 11:59 PM

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with colors, well except blue. His solution might very well be to bounce it with chain of vapor or echoing truth then push lethal damage through or counter it when it is replayed.

That sounds like a terrible idea when it would be so easy to just get an actual answer for it. I.E. Grip/Oring Ect. Spending a bounce spell and then attempting to fight a counter-war against landstill just makes my stomach turn.

No one asked if it is needed. If his game plan is just not to plan, be is because he doesn't have room or no one plays it in his meta then that's fine, the answer would be: yes, he is willing to scoop to a resolved humility. Not having an answer to every question is fine, so long as you know that the question exists.

Alright, I see your point. That just sounds like a recipe for failure, and I know when I start hearing things like "I just scoop to that" I start wanting to say stuff like "why, when you could sideboard a good answer"?

Ch0z3n

09-06-2008, 03:17 AM

I am not at all saying that bounce is the best solution, but you will often get into just as big a counter war over o-ring and often you can get down a nought or 2 under humility so you only need 1-2 turns to win. The point was that there are answers in blue, even if they aren't the best, so it doesn't have to be a flame war between colors.

Given that the legacy meta is so wide open in generally it would be almost impossible to have answers to everything. You have to pick and choose the cards that will be most effective in a variety of matches or cards that make match ups go from completely unwinnable to your favor or at least competitive. Also, local metas in general are very diverse. The fact is that even people who play in eternal formats might be unwilling to pay $500 or more for their decks or just play home-brew decks. If you play in a predictable meta and no one plays humility, I don't think it is too big a risk not to have the perfect answer to it. Sure, you might lose a match every once in a while because of it, but then you can adjust your deck as needed. Not everyone gets to play in 30+ person tournaments every week.

bananafish

09-07-2008, 06:38 AM

Ok, i'm going to quit lurking and actually write in this thread. I've played Dreadstill quite a bit locally and at the GP: Copenhagen side event and done very well with it, going something like 10-1-1 combined locally and 4-1-2 getting 10th (out of 63) at the legacy side event, would've been 5-1-1 as I played goyf and standstill to his empty board and hand on the first extra turn in the last round, but didn't have time to finish him.

I've played the U/g/r version with different tweaks all the time, my current list is pretty close to Rich Shay's list from a few pages back:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
2 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroclasm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives

I think 2 Pyroblasts would be enough as they're mostly used as backup spells to force through key spells (cannot be used to counter goyfs from thresh for example), and firespout is probably better than pyroclasm as it hits a lot more key creatures (serra avenger, rakdos pit dragon, skyshroud elite...) and you can generally hit 3 mana with this deck. The maindeck Krosan Grips have been pretty good, but sometimes they are awful so I'm not sure if they're right or not. Sometimes they are real blowouts, though, and a nice surprise G1 when people think their Counterbalance or Deed is safe. I used to have Spell Snares in that slot and they were always solid, but I tended to board them out as they just felt the least necessary in the deck. I also like to board out Dazes on the draw, giving me just 4 hard counters in FoW.

I'm very happy with the 4 goyfs, I had 3 but I'm always happy to see them and they make me able to play a different game with the deck. I like to be aggressive with my Stifle effects, pretty much always stifling the early fetches, sometimes even with nought in hand. I like to get Countertop or Standstill down before I resolve a nought as most decks will have an instant answer to the first one.

Dreadstill seems to get a lot of bashing and I can see that, it doesn't look very powerful or synergistic when you first look at it, but it's surprisingly robust and games don't play out how you might think when you just look at the decklist. The mana seems rough with so many colorless lands, but the only UU spell is Counterbalance and it usually doesn't come down on turn 2 anyway. Dreadstill is capable of doing so many unfair things with Stifle/Wasteland giving free wins, Stiflenought giving free wins and Factory/Standstill giving free wins. Stifle is such a strong card that is used to full potential here. Ditto Standstill, which I like even more in the goyf version, a lot of my games are effectively ended after an initial back-and-forth struggle that ends with me playing goyf and Standstill in the same turn. Not as unfair as going Nought, Stifle, Standstill, but still pretty damn strong.

I tried Crucibles maindeck but they were very underwhelming as they just don't affect the board and are only effective when you are already winning. I don't think I've ever been happy to draw one. Right now I'm very happy with the maindeck, the only decision being between SDT#3 and EE#2.

I haven't tried any of the other splashes, but I can't see a version without goyf being stronger. People seem to like Oblivion Ring, why is that? What's it do that other cards can't? It's not played in standard and pretty much only in U/W tron in extended, why is it powerful enough here? The lure of StP is strong though, I think that's the card I miss the most in this deck. The only out I have to large creatures, most notably Tombstalker and Mystic Enforcer, is racing with Nought, making them effectively must-counter. I don't see that much in the black splash, thoughtseize could be alright, but would take the deck in a more aggressive direction and I like it more controllish.

Ok this post turned out way longer than I thought, I'm going to stop now.

kilukru

09-10-2008, 06:52 PM

So, because of land limation in my collection i went UR. So first here's my current list : (Edit : yeah it's pretty much roodmishtah list, should have putted this earlyer, I needed a starting point and it was a good one)

// Lands
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
5 [RAV] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast

Here are my toughts :

6 Stifles effect : Im not disapointed, this deck really can abuse this effect, adding a fourth wasteland to allow a greater control over opponent mana base sound really sexy. I tried 5, was still quite sufficient for the nought but maybee a little short for the mana bas control, so 5 stiffles-3 wasteland 6 stifles-4 wasteland? well see

Counter package : Seriously as good as daze can be, spell snare just out played it for me! Both card savd my neck about the same number of time but the big difference was that i often wished for that daze in my hand to be a snare, and the opposite praticly never happened, so daze was cut to 3 (in this case that made room for the second EE). And 4 Fow, no comment.

No enchantment/artefact hate : This is the biggest weekness of this deck, you have to relly on counter, and post board on bounce/counter wich is a pretty bad strategy. Win fast is still the best move against ench/art based strategy and so far the deck performed quite good in this area.

3 Mages : If the 4 wasteland plan dosnt work, I will drop to 5 stifles effect and add a fourth mage, one more beater can really make a difference in this deck.

SB : I only own 1 needle so there's only 1 but I guess 2 would be the correct number.

Echoing truth : This card act more as a time walk to get an extra turn attacking with the big guy then anything else. Like I said earlyer, bounce/counter is just plan bad. Also double up as a token sweeper.

BEB/REB : Still not sure if I want 3REB/2BEB or 3BEB/2REB, a question of meta i guess.

Clasm : Firespout sound better, it's on my to aquire list, but for now clasm is doing a good job.

In conclusion : this deck score a 9 on the batshiat crazyness meter for it's power and the fact that it's a blast to play. (im a natural control player but smashing face with nought just feel so good!)

Rood

09-10-2008, 07:37 PM

Yeah that's almost my list card for card, just switch Wooded to Delta and 1 Snare to Daze ;). You can afford to go down to 2 Clasms and up your BEB count to 3.

J.V.

09-10-2008, 08:20 PM

Yeah definitely drop the Foothills for more U-Fetches, you don't won't to get stuck needing a basic island and not being able to fetch them, against Dragon Stompy or Aggro-Loam for example.

gypsy

09-17-2008, 02:00 AM

klaus

09-17-2008, 05:22 AM

@bananafish:

I like your list and would suggest only minor stuff.

that single EE in the board could/should be a Needle afaic.
Also: what are those Echoing Truths for? Dreadlists that don't have access to W/G (read: monoU, UB, UR) use them as pseudo artifact/enchantment removal.
Having 2 Grip main and one in the side does it.
I'd replace them with another Crypt and a "Metaslot".

Your maindeck looks solid, though I feel 5 stifle effects should be enough with 3 Noughts. I see where you're coming from however.

J.V.

09-18-2008, 12:16 AM

can anyone post a good Ugr dreadstill list i have a legacy tourny on sat and havent kept up with the new tech and was wondering what some of the last slots are compared to mine. also my metagame is kinda random only 2-3 good players was wondering if this deck is good in a random meta

This is what I've been playing:
Lands:21
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Island

Creatures:10
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:15
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle

The_Red_Panda

09-18-2008, 12:42 AM

List

If you're only playing two colors, main deck 4x wasteland. You have plenty of basics and whatnot for colors, and the additional disruption might come in handy. Plus, then you don't have to leave that pesky 1x wasteland somewhere away from the rest of the playset. It might get lost!

I really like the REB/Pyroblasts out of the board. I don't think I would drop below 4 anytime soon. Bringing those in against blue decks gives you such an edge it's unbelievable. Blasting away islands/forces/draw spells just feels so good. Counterspell costs 2 for a reason. Also, I run 6 stife effects (previously 7) and I don't think I'd go any lower. The fact that you need stifles both for slowing your opponent and for comboing with nought means you don't want to run out, or be unable to draw one. Five feels risky to me.

random only 2-3 good players was wondering if this deck is good in a random meta

It's absurd. My local meta is mostly yank decks with a few good players, and not even that much combo, and Dreadstill just rolls over everything.

Bad aggro decks fold to turn two dreadnought, because it's ALWAYS going to be faster than them. That's pre-board. When you bring in 3-4x Firespout, the matchup goes from favorable to like 90% in your favor. The only deck I've had trouble with in these regards is Goyf sligh, and only because their creatures don't get blown away by Firespout.

Bad Combo decks fold to force/daze/disruption because they're even more susceptible than their non-bad counterparts.

The only real problem matchups I've seen with this deck are rock variants and slow control decks. That's where I love 4x red blast. It may not do jack shit to rock, but I've basically decided that I just lose that matchup, similar to how some decks "just lose" the combo matchup. Red blast plus Krosan grip to deal with weird enchantments/artifacts make the matchup a little better post board, but still not in your favor.

kiwi

09-18-2008, 08:27 AM

Whats your game plane againts LandStill ?

I think that Landstill is a bad pairing for DreadStill.

What can I do if I play UGR dreadstill version ??
In 2 color version back to basic is a good option but in 3 colors versions I dont know what to do againts landstill, may be playing 4 REB ?

The_Red_Panda

09-18-2008, 08:54 AM

In 2 color version back to basic is a good option but in 3 colors versions I dont know what to do againts landstill, may be playing 4 REB ?

I really like the REB/Pyroblasts out of the board. I don't think I would drop below 4 anytime soon. Bringing those in against blue decks gives you such an edge it's unbelievable. Blasting away islands/forces/draw spells just feels so good. Counterspell costs 2 for a reason.

The only real problem matchups I've seen with this deck are rock variants and slow control decks. That's where I love 4x red blast. It may not do jack shit to rock, but I've basically decided that I just lose that matchup, similar to how some decks "just lose" the combo matchup. Red blast plus Krosan grip to deal with weird enchantments/artifacts make the matchup a little better post board, but still not in your favor.

I've been waiting to do that for so long.

b4r0n

09-18-2008, 10:03 AM

REBs seem solid against Landstill. What do you side out? A mix of Dazes and Standstills, right? Just out of curiosity, are there any matchups where you side out Dreadnought?

Rood

09-18-2008, 10:47 AM

REBs seem solid against Landstill. What do you side out? A mix of Dazes and Standstills, right? Just out of curiosity, are there any matchups where you side out Dreadnought?

I normally board 1 out against a ton of decks, Landstill, Threshold, and sometimes Rock. REB is an extremely solid card from the board it will give you that edge over the control player like Panda said. I witnessed J.V. lose to Blood Moon to SwanThresh over the weekend and I couldn't help myself but think "What if Dreadstill ran a playset of MoTM from the board"? Seeing as nobody runs basic forest it could be an absolute house to getting Dreanought down and not having to care about K-grip. Also destroying Landstill/ITF variants.

J.V.

09-18-2008, 11:35 AM

I normally board 1 out against a ton of decks, Landstill, Threshold, and sometimes Rock. REB is an extremely solid card from the board it will give you that edge over the control player like Panda said. I witnessed J.V. lose to Blood Moon to SwanThresh over the weekend and I couldn't help myself but think "What if Dreadstill ran a playset of MoTM from the board"? Seeing as nobody runs basic forest it could be an absolute house to getting Dreanought down and not having to care about K-grip. Also destroying Landstill/ITF variants.
Just wanted to add my hand was 2x Krosan Grip, 3x Tarmogoyf at the time. :cry:

J.V.

09-18-2008, 11:39 AM

? :confused:

Magus of the Moon

aldurac

09-25-2008, 03:45 AM

I recently entered a big tourny and went top 4 with this deck...
(top 4, split prizes)

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Trickbind
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Propaganda
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Sacred Ground
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 1 Serenity

I choose a white build after testing all the other colour builds, I liked this build the most because it seems to give more options vs other decks.

what i like:

- the coherency between enlightened tutor - brainstorm - counterbalance (and fetchlands)
- the abuse of dreadnought - stifle - standstill
- the abuse of standstill - manlands
- the abuse of wasteland - crucible
- enlightened tutor: to fetch almost the whole sideboard, an extra land (seat of the synod), ur main kill: dreadnought, ...

sideboard choice serenity: included only vs enchantress

any remarks?

J.V.

09-26-2008, 12:30 PM

Your list looks good, Ever wish you had Oblivion Ring? In my testing of the white splash O-Ring was the best card the splash offered. Also how many players in the tournament? When? Where?

BKclassic

09-26-2008, 01:34 PM

Maagler

09-26-2008, 04:54 PM

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19970

I would just like to point out this guy won with 2 Magus in the board, which is apparently enough to let you beat Landstill in the finals without REBs. So yeah, +1 for that idea.

Idk Ive been testing this along with bloodmoon, and I feel that it hurts you more than it helps you. i might have to do some more testing though.

One nice thing about it, that is not seen in a lot of deck packing magus, or blood moon is the fact that this deck can back up the moon with counterspells. Most decks running him are aggro and have no answers to counterspells.

Rood

09-26-2008, 05:24 PM

Yeah, I'm a huge believer in the Magus. Not only does he shut down grips or goyfs but he also can just flat out hand you wins against an unexpecting ITF or Landstill player.

1maarten1

09-28-2008, 06:43 AM

Is someone able to give me a list that has only 1 volc.island main and a nice red/blue side (with magus?). thanks alot :)

~Maarten

kilukru

09-28-2008, 10:15 AM

This is close to a standard list :

// Lands
1 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
7 [RAV] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout

Most people use 4 daze 3 Snare, but I dont know why, snare just saved my skin too often

If you want magnus main i would suggest something like :
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Trickbind

+2 Magnus

But if you plan to run MD magnus i would also suggest to up the Vocanic count to at least 2, 1 can be a little shacky (waste, sinkhole, etc...).

If you want to side the magnus I would probably cut the echoing Truth, since it's probably the worst card in the side, but as always, sideboard is really meta dependant, and the truth did some great thing's for me.

kilukru

09-28-2008, 10:37 AM

Sorry for the double post but this is for a different subject.

In the Ur version, it seem's like our most common enemy is the green splash, or even worst, a green mage. I was looking for a good SB hate card and my search came back pretty dry :

Insight
Cost: 2U
Card Type: Enchantment
Rules Text (Oracle): Whenever an opponent plays a green spell, you draw a card.

To be frank, the card could be good against deck's that relly heavily on green but dosnt fix a thing against the splash (im looking a you k-grip).

So is the Magnus our best shot? or did i miss a good hate card somewhere?

1maarten1

09-28-2008, 11:25 AM

Hey, this my current Ur build:
3#Wasteland
4#Mishra’s Factory
4#Flooded Strand
6#Island
2#Volcanic Island
4#Phyrexian Dreadnought
3#Trinket Mage
4#Brainstorm
4#Daze
4#Force of Will
4#Stifle
3#Counterbalance
2#Sensei’s Divining Top
4#Standstill
2#Trickbind
2#Engineered Explosives
3#Spell Snare
2#Polluted Delta
// sideboard
2#Echoing Truth
3#Red Elemental Blast
2#Pyroclasm
2#Magus of the Moon
3#Tormod’s Crypt
3#Blue Elemental Blast

Tips and comments are always welcome :).

thanks, Maarten

J.V.

09-28-2008, 11:27 AM

My comment about your list is more about the fact your list only has 19 lands than the fact you run only 5 Fetches, don't you find yourself getting mana screwed often? If I we're you I would definitely cut Pithing Needle and a Spell Snare from your maindeck for a 2nd Volc and a 6th Fetch.

On that note I have a problem with people only playing 1 dual, why would you open yourselves up to 1 Wasteland making any splash color card you sided in into a dead card?

1maarten1

09-28-2008, 11:57 AM

I agree, and im changing it ;) after some testing is found myself gettin mana screwed pretty often. 1 v.island for spell snare and 1 fetch for peedle.

thx, Maarten

BKclassic

09-28-2008, 12:31 PM

Just a thought, but if your are planning on SBing your moon effects, it seems like Blood Moon would be better than the Magus. Especially against Landstill where they might drop Humility, and I would submit that Magus is pretty dubious against red splash Thresh, due to all the Bolts/Fire in those decks. I am testing something along these lines:

2 volcs
6 fetches
6 island
4 factory
3 wasteland

4 Naught
2 Trinket Mage
2 Magus of the Moon

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Snare
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
2 T-Bind

4 B-storm
2 Top
4 Standstill

2 EE

SB:
3 Blood Moon
2 REB
3 BEB
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt

I think that in the Moon version of the deck, Stifle effects are at a premium because you want stop your opponent from fetching a basic forest (many survival and the rock decks only run 4-5 basic forests), so I don't think going below 6 is a good idea, and I think you are definitely going to want 4 Naughts because Factory beats are going to be less reliable.

Rood

09-28-2008, 01:56 PM

The main reason everyone I went with MoTM over Blood Moon is yes, MoTM dies easier against Red Thresh, etc. If you run Blood Moon instead you lose your board advantage. What's the worst that can happen when you drop a magus is your oponent can't play goyfs and if they do somehow get a threat into play they can't attack unless they want to give us back all of our Mishra's Factories. Also if you run Moon, they can still float mana and K-grip it. I'm looking into not being susceptible to K-grip much with Magus instead. Basically, if anything run a 2-1 split or 3-1 split but never run more Moons then Magus I think it's a bad call.

J.V.

09-28-2008, 03:43 PM

Also if you play a Blood Moon you really cannot play a Standstill UNLESS you have a creature down since your factories are mountains, MotM dodges since it is a beater.

godryk

09-28-2008, 03:49 PM

J.V.

09-28-2008, 04:04 PM

What are your thoughts about Aggro Loam and Trinket Painter matchups? Those decks seem to have become more popular in my meta. Dreadnought decks are also popular, although Dreaded Fish variants are the most played. And of course there is always Threshold and a beautifull wide specter of random decks.

Trinket Painter is some sort of mirror in which we can't let each other play our combo, IDK, I see it close. Krosan Grip and maybe a singleton Blessing (which will buy much time) are some cards I think of right now...

Aggro Loam. I have almost no experience against this deck, so I would really appreciate some tips about it. I've played some matches and got really beaten, although I've been able to win some games thanks to T2 Dreadnought.

Right know I think I have access to all splashes, though I'm currently playing the Ugr.

Trinket Painter isn't bad as long as you keep Dark Confidant off the table, if they get ahead in cards they probably win. Aggro-Loam is really pretty easy they usually can't race a fast Nought, Standstill, and CB/T are really good against them. Also with ALA you should be maindecking a Relic of Progenitus which absolutely wrecks them, it kills Terravore and cantrips for 2 mana, it shrinks their Tarmogoyfs, and it removes their engine.

The_Red_Panda

09-28-2008, 05:30 PM

Aggro-Loam is really pretty easy they usually can't race a fast Nought, Standstill, and CB/T are really good against them.

From my limited testing, Aggro-Loam is actually not that horribly easy. It might not be unfavorable, but recuring goyfs mixed with LD and chalice out of the board makes it far from a bye.

Rood

09-28-2008, 05:52 PM

It's not horrible easy, but favorable probally 60-40 in our favor. I've done quite a bit of testing with that MU as well, and I can only assume once Relic is legal it will be an even easier MU.

Maagler

09-28-2008, 05:54 PM

From my limited testing, Aggro-Loam is actually not that horribly easy. It might not be unfavorable, but recuring goyfs mixed with LD and chalice out of the board makes it far from a bye.

I have to agree with you for this matchup. It is a winnable one, but defiantly not a bye, especially the versions that run chalice. Because of Aggro loam's threedrops (Crusher, Witness, Terrivor) I haven't found that CB/top particularly shines in this matchup.

Even post-side the match does not improve much. They are siding in shushers and kgrips while we are siding in our crypts and blast (if you run them), which keep the game in a relatively equal state.

Ch@os

09-29-2008, 02:48 AM

I dont like the red splash, disable Wasteland, Factory and maybe a splashcolor? For what? Most Decks can easy handle a Moon effect or just play around, especially when the Moon comes so late [round3 or later].

What do you guys think of this list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18487

2x CrucibleoW mainboard allows a decent Wasteland lock and recurring Mishra's.

2x Cunning Wish for Grip, Extirpate, Trickbind, Echoing Truth, Berserk :tongue: also seems strong, nice out against Humility and other trublesome permanents or graveyard engines.

kilukru

09-29-2008, 11:07 AM

First off, the deck run 19 land and 61 cards, those are both bad number, I think that 21 is the right amont of land for Dreadstill, you want to hit 3 mana. Add to that the ration of basic vs nonbasic in that build and against a lot of deck you'll end up mana screwed pretty often.

Beside that the idea is interesting, the one thing I dont like is that it spreed the deck pretty thin. One of the strenght of this deck is almost having a plan A and B (either stifle/nought standstill or counter/top) in your hand, maybe a card short but hitting that card isn'nt supposed to be hard since the deck is pretty condensed. Adding the green splash thin the counter package for tarmo wich bring an easy 4 plan for victory but more than that (CoW, Wish) just add more win-con (or dont loose-con) while lowering the reliability of your mains ones.

In other word, for a solution to most problem, you pay with reliability, speed, and a shaky mana base. The idea is good but not whort it IMO, the deck already pack enought win-con/control and disruption as it is, no real need for the wishboard.

Reagens

09-29-2008, 11:33 AM

I agree with the above.
I have played a cunning wish version of the deck and frankly the advantage of having a wishboard doesn't compare to the disadvantage of losing valuable SB space besides being very slow.
I myself am looking for a way to have a basic forest in the deck (because I am very afraid of my tropicals getting exirpated and because I am encountering more and more chokes in my meta). The obvious solution would be to play 1 windswept heath or 1 wooded foothills and a forest but I am unsure if this solves more problems then it creates. Another suggestion was running 1 shockland. Which might be worth it but does not solve the issue with choke.
On another note I think it is very important to have acces to cc3 cards. I have needed those every single time to maintain a CB lock against for example the rock, enchantress and loam. 3trinket mage with 1-2 crucuble of worlds should be the bare minimum.
On a final point I am getting quite annoyed with explosives more often then not. It is very slow and is only used to kill tokens (very happy when that happens), and dark confidant/ opposing tarmogoyf. I was hoping to find a better solution for this.

Rood

09-29-2008, 04:35 PM

Reagens as much as you may say you want a basic forest, I have to strongly disagree. Fear of your Trops getting extirpated is the exact same fear as getting something else crucial in the deck extirpated (Dreadnought, FoW.) Go with option B and maindeck a Breeding Pool instead, but never maindeck a basic forest w/ green fetchland it's going to hurt you way more than it will help. If you're worried about Choke just sideboard Annul, it's 1 mana and solves that problem way easier. Either that or just don't let Choke resolve /K-grip it at EOT.

jazzykat

09-30-2008, 11:14 AM

Concern over DS 1 page back are not that warranted. As long as you have a basic island they are in pretty bad shape as I have found in my testing. Your goyfs and naughts eat their lunch, so all that you have to keep off the board is chalice= 1or 2, (trinisphere sucks too), Pit Dragon is problematic but if you have them low enough in life you can probably race, and if you have a goyf in your hand then maybe a moon effect otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.

They go blood moon you go naught, stifle they usually have no MD removal... even a couple of jitte counters aren't going to save them for long.

J.V.

09-30-2008, 11:17 AM

kilukru

09-30-2008, 02:52 PM

Ok let's open dialogue a little, what are the curent concern of the deck right now?

General card concern :

Academy ruins yes/no?

U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?

U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list

U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?

Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?

Archetype +/-

U/r :
+hight count of basic land (resilent against hate open up BtB or moon)
+biggest control shell

-Weak against artefact and enchantment

U/g/r
+Dynamic duo (goyf grip)
+keep the red sideboard options
+most balanced list (best in unknow meta??)

U/w/x(g,r)
+Board control
+3rd color a charm (dynamic duo or red sideboard)
+Meedling mage

-MD can be pretty cramped and must cut some good card

Black splash :
dead or alive?

Beside the quick nought start, is there a way to better our bad MU (the rock, stompy's etc...)?

I had time to kill so, discuss!

1maarten1

09-30-2008, 03:06 PM

I am currently playing The U/r list i posted a few posts earlier. Im really satisfied about. As you can see i run 2 magus in the side that really helped me in the landstill mu. And as you already described: it kinda has a problem with arti's and enchantments. Anybody got a nice suggestion for that?? About the other lists: i didnt test those so cant comment about that ;).

~`Maarten

jazzykat

09-30-2008, 03:18 PM

Jazzy Cat is right, but honestly I think ever he overestimates Dragon Stompy, you can actually let chalice at 1 or 2 resolve. E.E. for 0 makes quick work of those... The only real must counters are Pit Dragon and Trinisphere.

Lastly if you want to pwn DS's face then play firespout in the sb. 3 damage kills just about everything except arc slogger and a face up hellbent raiders. You should always have Mountains to cast it :P

J.V.

09-30-2008, 03:42 PM

Lastly if you want to pwn DS's face then play firespout in the sb. 3 damage kills just about everything except arc slogger and a face up hellbent raiders. You should always have Mountains to cast it :P

Completely True I usually side in a few against Dragon Stompy.
==================================
Ok let's open dialogue a little, what are the curent concern of the deck right now?

General card concern :

Academy ruins yes/no?
No, the deck can't afford to run more nonbasics and you have no way of finding it.

U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?
Yes, Sideboard if your meta has a lot of Landstill type decks or even just decks with bad mana bases.

U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list
Agreed, I would say Ugr Specifically is the best.

U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?
O-Ring is really good, the only issue I've ever had with it is that it is a triggered ability so it can be stifled.
STP: Obviously solid regardless of the deck, but I think O-Ring just does a better job in Dreadstill and creature removal isn't actually that needed. The only time you ever really wish you had Swords is against something like Tombstalker, but even then you can race it or O-Ring it.

Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?
You NEED graveyard hate, Also BEB is probably the most used card in my board, as far as things like Propaganda, I think its kinda clunky just run Firespout.

Archetype +/-

U/r :
+hight count of basic land (resilient against hate open up BtB or moon)
+biggest control shell

-Weak against artifact and enchantment
Pretty well summarized.

U/g/r
+Dynamic duo (goyf grip)
+keep the red sideboard options
+most balanced list (best in unknown meta??)
I actually think Ur is probably the most Balanced since I have occasionally had the problem of being locked out of cards by color screw in Ugr. But I do agree that it is the best in an unknown meta, You get GY Hate, Goyf, Grip, Anti-Blue, and sweepers. I think that about hits everything.
U/w/x(g,r)
+Board control
+3rd color a charm (dynamic duo or red sideboard)
+Meddling mage

-MD can be pretty cramped and must cut some good card
I haven't really worked with Uwx all that much, but I do think it could be really strong. Most likely I would play Uwr
Black splash :
dead or alive?
I'm not sure Maindeck Thoughtseize is super strong but I don't know if that is enough to make it worthwhile over any of the other colors.

Beside the quick nought start, is there a way to better our bad MU (the rock, stompy's etc...)?
Rock you really have to play perfectly, that's the best I can give you there... I'd label Stompy as a good match up, honestly its pretty easy.

Maagler

09-30-2008, 04:15 PM

Academy ruins yes/no?
Yes. I think that this card will work, but only in decks with one splash, and only as a one of (obv.) If you run this in a deck with more than one splash, you open yourself up to heavy land disruption. if you look on deckcheck, about 1/3 to a half of the decks run it.

U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?

After further testing, I will have to agree with this in the side, especially against landstill.

U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list
+2. I personally like the Ugr

U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?
O-ring overrated? No, not really. It is good against alot of threats, but i feel that the white splash version as a whole does not have the same kind of punch as the Ug/Ugr versions.

Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?
I have not liked propaganda in testing, usually it is best against lost of tokens or ichorid. echoing truth and tormods does a better job against those decks anyways and are more versitile.

jazzykat

09-30-2008, 04:18 PM

J.V.

09-30-2008, 04:23 PM

One list which off the cuff seems homotronic to me is: Uwb

having confidant (maybe), swords for sure, seize (awesome card but does it help you in any bad matchups?), and possibly Mother of Runes (a potentially shit idea) to protect the Naught and Vindicate, which combined with stifles, trickbind, and wasteland not only provides the all purpose spot removal but also more ld, which makes daze super relevant.

General Comments:
This "deck/archetype" destroys combo decks, I think I lost one game vs. everything I have tested against (teps, solidarity, AdNauseum). BTW I raced 8 ETW tokens with dreadnaught, then goyf+factory. Racing combo with a creature is funny!

It has a brutal combo finish stifle/naught so it seems to roll aggro (to a point) and the lists with Tarmogoyf are basically Abysses vs. them as they can't afford to wait for you to get a Dreadnaught down.

That said I imagine this deck gets owned hard by Stax and I imagine Landstill is not that easy.

What are the good and bad matchups for each variant?
Is this deck supposed to play like landstill or threshhold I can't figure it out...sometimes I feel like a combo deck and just go for the quick win.

Quite to the contrary unless you open with shit and they have the nuts you tend to steamroll Stax, you just have to know what to Counter. You did guess correctly Landstill is brutal, in my last three rounds against Landstill I have gone to time in game three for an unintentional draw This was against Nickrit2000 and twice against Konsultant (arguably the best landstill player in all of legacy.) As for how the deck plays out thats the beauty of it, it adapts to the situation I'd say it play like a tempo deck most often, but it certainly has matches where it plays the control game or the Aggro/Combo game.

Rood

09-30-2008, 04:27 PM

General Comments:
This "deck/archetype" destroys combo decks, I think I lost one game vs. everything I have tested against (teps, solidarity, AdNauseum). BTW I raced 8 ETW tokens with dreadnaught, then goyf+factory. Racing combo with a creature is funny!
-Pretty much, the deck was designed to completely destroy combo with my initial intentions. I'd also have to agree I hardly ever lose to combo, Ichorid probally has the best game against us.

It has a brutal combo finish stifle/naught so it seems to roll aggro (to a point) and the lists with Tarmogoyf are basically Abysses vs. them as they can't afford to wait for you to get a Dreadnaught down.
UGR most definetally has the best aggro MU with Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, and Firesprouts from the board, I actually am going to start playing UGR I think.

That said I imagine this deck gets owned hard by Stax and I imagine Landstill is not that easy.
Mono-white armaggedon/Enchantress are rough matchups. But with K-grips and EEs postboard at worst your looking at 55/45 their favor. I actually think Landstill isn't that bad unless it's UGB Gravedigger- that's the hardest to defeat. UWx is easier then that variant for sure~ Bring in Moons/REBs, you should be okay.

What are the good and bad matchups for each variant?
Is this deck supposed to play like landstill or threshhold I can't figure it out...sometimes I feel like a combo deck and just go for the quick win.
Most of the Dreadstill variants have alot of the same MUs. Obviously, UGR with goyfs or just UG has a stronger aggro matchup then say UR, UG, UB or UW. Where's UR and UW obviously have the stronger combo MU. That's the thing about Dreadstill, you can play it however you feel is right. You can be the Landstill control player or go for fast strait out combo against alot of decks and just win. It's very flexible to people's play styles.

jazzykat

09-30-2008, 04:57 PM

@Roodmistah: IMO the power of this deck to utterly stomp out combo without having white in it is undeniable. I guess the anti combo version is pointless IMO unless your meta is going to be 90% combo or something.

I am loving the UGR version because a quick goyf wins just like a Naught beating or a factory humpdown. The deck is relatively threat dense 4 Naught, 3 Goyf, 3 Mage, 4 factories gives you 17 sources of damage all the while wasteland, stifling, and dazing your opponent. I think your best option is probably to play most games like an agressive thresh build as your dazes and stifles become less relevant as the game progresses, that said if you have no gas and can play a turn 2 standstill I think that is OK too.

It is savagely flexible and that was why when I played ITF against it I was having fits because even my deeds weren't safe from being molested. That said I usually won with ITF against it.

1maarten1

10-01-2008, 03:19 AM

jazzykat

10-01-2008, 11:06 AM

In my meta there is much combo, also some agro and not very much still/stax/rock stuff. Im sticking with my U/r list.(this is because i like it and because i cant afford goyfs and tropicals :P).

~Maarten

It sounds like going to a Uw with meddling mage might be even better then if you have the tundras!

1maarten1

10-01-2008, 11:56 AM

yes i know :P but i got none of those cards :P and im going to play some tournaments with my U/r list first :P, if it doesnt work out then i'll look for other splashes :P. thanks,

Maarten

J.V.

10-01-2008, 01:10 PM

Honestly if you meta is heavy in combo it really shouldn't matter what version of Dreadstill you play every round against Combo should be a bye but on the topic of strongest list against combo red is right up there with White, REB is really good since you can blast their setup: Brainstorm, ponder, mystical tutor, etc.

Bane of the Living

10-01-2008, 01:18 PM

yes i know :P but i got none of those cards :P and im going to play some tournaments with my U/r list first :P, if it doesnt work out then i'll look for other splashes :P. thanks,

Maarten

I just looked back through at least 3 pages of just crap after crap. You guys are talking about the same things you were almost two months ago. There's not that much discussion to add. The new crypt/furnace artifact from Shards is the only addition to the deck.

The color splashes are only preferences, there's no good reason to run one over the other. I recommend trying to be original and going with your own thing rather than breaking down every thing to Swords vs Thoughtseize.

The_Red_Panda

10-01-2008, 02:29 PM

I just looked back through at least 3 pages of just crap after crap. You guys are talking about the same things you were almost two months ago. There's not that much discussion to add. The new crypt/furnace artifact from Shards is the only addition to the deck.

I would vouch that we're talking about the same crap from two months ago because that same crap is still doing fantastic, and winning tournaments. :confused: I really don't see why we need new cards in the deck if the old ones still do amazingly well vs. the meta. I mean, I'm all for testing new cards, but if the new set didn't give us much, why worry over it?

Rood

10-01-2008, 07:59 PM

I would vouch that we're talking about the same crap from two months ago because that same crap is still doing fantastic, and winning tournaments. :confused: I really don't see why we need new cards in the deck if the old ones still do amazingly well vs. the meta. I mean, I'm all for testing new cards, but if the new set didn't give us much, why worry over it?

QFT, there really hasn't been any new material with DS to work with outside of Relic really =/.

BKclassic

10-02-2008, 04:09 PM

I think one of my problems with this deck is that I suck at sideboarding, any help would be appreciated.

MB: 60
6 Fetch
3 Trop
2 Volc
3 Island
4 Factory
3 Waste

3 Naught
4 Goyf
2 Mage

4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
1 T-Bind
3 Daze
3 CB
4 FoW

2 EE

2 Top
4 B-storm
4 Standstill

SB: 15
2 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
2 K Grip
2 Firespout
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

Firstly, I expect Ichorid is going to be running Needle from now on since Chalice won't be able to stop Relic, so I think a split between the two is going to be best.

Its pretty obvious when to cut Dazes/Snares for Blasts and when to cut EE for Needle, and against decks were you board out CB or Standstill to fit in Firespout and Grip, but I can't figure out what to cut for Magus, Grip and Firespout against matchups where CB and Still stay in.

For example against Survival
-1 EE, +1 Needle
-2 Daze, +2 Grip
Seems like a good place to start, but I have no idea what to cut for Firespout, and I think 1 Relic is going to be solid here.

Against Thresh:
-2 Daze/Snare for +2 Pyroblast
-1 EE, +1 Relic (if this is actually good)
Don't know what to cut for Magus, and if Grip and Needle are good , I am really lost.

Against ITF and Landstill
-2 Daze/Snare for +2 Pyroblast
-1 EE/+1 Needle
Against Still, I would probably just do -4 Standstill, +2 Grip, +2 Magus, but against ITF I think Still is pretty solid, but so are Magus and Grip there.

Evagreen/Sui/Homebrew
-2 Standstill, +2 Firespout
-1 EE/+1 Needle (if needed)
This seems the most reasonable, I am pretty sure I want all the counters.

The rest I am reasonably sure of:
Dragonstompy:
-3 CB/+3 Hydroblast
+2 Grip/-2 Standstill
+2 Firespout/-2 Standstill

The Rock
-1 EE/+1 Needle
-2 Daze/Snare/+2 Firespout (obviously not if its more like Tombstone, probably Magus instead)

Belcher
-3 Counterbalance/+3 Blue Elemental Blast
-1 Top/+1 Needle
-1 Top/+1 Firespout

TES/Fetchland Tendrils
-2 Spell Snare/+2 Pyroblast

Ichorid
-2 CB/+2 Crypt
-1 CB/+1 Relic
-2 Standstill/+2 Firespout
-2 Standstill/+2 Pyroblast
-2 Spell Snare/+2 Magus

Goyf Sligh:
-3 Spell Snare/+3 Hydroblast
-1 Standstill/+1 Needle

J.V.

10-02-2008, 10:35 PM

Evagreen/Sui/Homebrew
-2 Standstill, +2 Firespout
-1 EE/+1 Needle (if needed)
This seems the most reasonable, I am pretty sure I want all the counters.

The rest I am reasonably sure of:
Dragonstompy:
-3 CB/+3 Hydroblast
+2 Grip/-2 Standstill
+2 Firespout/-2 Standstill

Belcher
-3 Counterbalance/+3 Blue Elemental Blast
-1 Top/+1 Needle
-1 Top/+1 Firespout

TES/Fetchland Tendrils
-2 Spell Snare/+2 Hydroblast
I'm currently writing a paper so I don't really have time go over all of the side strategies, but here are a few real quickly:
Eva Green etc:
-1 E.E.
-1 Daze
+2 Firespout

Dragon Stompy:
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Spell Snare
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Hyrdoblast
+2 Firespout
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle

Belcher:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

T.E.S.:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Engineered Explosive
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

I'll do the rest of them later.

Maagler

10-02-2008, 10:47 PM

Belcher:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

T.E.S.:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Engineered Explosive
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle

Why are you siding out the noughts? I would think that you would want to get one out quick so you can race them if at all possible.

J.V.

10-02-2008, 10:52 PM

Why are you siding out the noughts? I would think that you would want to get one out quick so you can race them if at all possible.

You don't need nought if you establish control against either deck they literally cannot win, 1 factory will go the distance. And in the case of Ugr you also have tarmogoyf.

BKclassic

10-02-2008, 11:14 PM

T.E.S.:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Engineered Explosive
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
.

Are you sure about no Pyroblast/REB? Hitting their set up spells seems better than hitting Rite of Flame (I wrote Hydroblast in my plan originally but I meant Pyroblast).

J.V.

10-02-2008, 11:32 PM

Are you sure about no Pyroblast/REB? Hitting their set up spells seems better than hitting Rite of Flame (I wrote Hydroblast in my plan originally but I meant Pyroblast).

No you need Hydroblast because of Vexing Shusher.

Maagler

10-03-2008, 07:31 AM

You don't need nought if you establish control against either deck they literally cannot win, 1 factory will go the distance. And in the case of Ugr you also have tarmogoyf.

Ok that makes sense. What are people's thoughts on threads of disloyalty? has It become an obsolete choice? With the amount of goyfs and Bobs running around I would think it to be a bigger sideboard option.

crazyroundman

10-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Ok that makes sense, what are people's thoughts on threads? has It become obsolete? With the amount of goyfs and Bobs running around I would think it to be a bigger sideboard choice.

I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the combo match. So I really don't understand your suggestion of Threads.

Anyway, while looking through the lists from recent events, I really like Goyf in Dreadstill. Like, a lot. Is there an optomized URg list that I could get my hands on?

Omega

10-03-2008, 12:01 PM

Just wanted to share you one of my concern.

I went to a tournament with URB list and got completly dominated by opponents. I came to the conclusion that Nought and Factories alone are not enough. A countered stifle/ destroyed nought is a huge card disadvantage.

I think green should be a standard for this deck. Its my opinion

Robert

J.V.

10-03-2008, 09:07 PM

I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the combo match. So I really don't understand your suggestion of Threads.

Anyway, while looking through the lists from recent events, I really like Goyf in Dreadstill. Like, a lot. Is there an optomized URg list that I could get my hands on?

This is a fairly optimized list (I still change a few cards around tournament to tournament because I'm like that, but yeah...)
Lands:21-22
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2-3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island

Creatures:10
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:28-29
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Trickbind
0-1 Relic of Progenitus

Choose 2 from the 4th Daze, Relic, and the 3rd Flooded Strand

Sideboard:15
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2-3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout
1-2 Pithing Needle

If Relic is main then 2 Crypts and a 2nd Needle.

Maagler

10-04-2008, 01:09 AM

Reagens

10-04-2008, 06:14 AM

As an alternative to J.V. I am testing his list with the following changes

21 land
- 1 trinket mage
+ 1 crucible of worlds
3 daze
+ 2 spell snare
- 1 relic of progenitus

I might consider relic of progenitus in the future, but as of now I consider it to be a sideboard option.

The_Red_Panda

10-08-2008, 03:29 PM

DragoFireheart

10-12-2008, 12:38 PM

If I am casting Thoughtseize against a Dreadstill player, and I see a Dreadnought and a Stifle in his hand, which one do I make him discard?

Bahamuth

10-12-2008, 12:42 PM

If I am casting Thoughtseize against a Dreadstill player, and I see a Dreadnought and a Stifle in his hand, which one do I make him discard?

Most list only play a single Trickbind, so I would take the Stifle. Dreadnought is dead without Stifle, but Stifle isn't dead without Dreadnought.

Nihil Credo

10-12-2008, 01:00 PM

Also Trinket Mage = Phyrexian Dreadnought 5-7.

Enigma

10-14-2008, 08:15 PM

I'm currently trying Echoing Truth MD in a UGr version and I really like it. It answer a problem I had against lists with big fat creatures as Tombstalker and Countryside Crusher. Against Tombs, I bounce it and if there's any cards in graveyard remaining, I use Tormod to be sure the player can't recast it somehow soon.

When Countryside Crusher is in play and the player cast Devastating dreams, boucing the big fat paysant is kind of soothing.

I cut Spell snare to put this in in 3x copies.

Here is my list:

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth
3 Counterbalance

// Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Chill
SB: 1 Propaganda

Notice that I'm a 61 cards fan.

To speak about the Sideboard, I tried Magus against 43 Lands, Survival Advantage, Pox & Aggro loam and pretty liked the result.

On an other note: What you think about the MU vs EvaGreen? I find it pretty 50/50 and hard.

J.V.

10-15-2008, 12:37 PM

On an other note: What you think about the MU vs EvaGreen? I find it pretty 50/50 and hard.
50/50 against suicide is about accurate, they can simply disrupt you into oblivion and you never recover, but they lose to CB/T and have trouble answering Dreadnought in time.
Also on the note of Maindeck E-Truth I tried it for a while and liked it, ultimately it was cut for more Counters, but it is solid in the maindeck.

Rood

10-15-2008, 08:46 PM

50/50 against suicide is about accurate, they can simply disrupt you into oblivion and you never recover, but they lose to CB/T and have trouble answering Dreadnought in time.
Also on the note of Maindeck E-Truth I tried it for a while and liked it, ultimately it was cut for more Counters, but it is solid in the maindeck.

Agreed...Sui-black of any form is tough. But the thing is if you can just land a CB you will normally win =/ that card owns the deck so hard. Standstill also hurts it incredible bad as well. It all depends on which variant you play against.

psu42

10-18-2008, 01:18 AM

i've been meaning to post this for about 2-3 weeks now but haven't had time

i'm looking for some input/suggestions/thoughts on the deck and my ideas/questions

i played this deck to 9th out of 48 (ish) at the Binghamton $1000 tourney in September (should have probably been 8th, but i miscalculated points last round and just missed)

Ugr Dreadstill
-------------
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Island
2x Snow-Covered Island
3x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Trinket Mage

4x Brainstorm
3x Counterbalance
3x Daze
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Force of Will
2x Krosan Grip
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind

Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Krosan Grip
3x Firespout
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Vexing Shusher

i really like my maindeck and it plays amazingly well, the krosan grips are insane in just about every matchup as i'm always looking for 1 for something

yes i only play 3 goyfs, and would like to add another but have no room for one unless i play 61 cards or change the configuration of other stuff a little...which i'm considering

my main problem with the deck is standstill itself...the card is the most situational/conditional card in the deck...it's bad on the draw like 90% of the time and it's only good on the play like 50% of the time, and in general before that it's 50/50 whether or not you want it depending on the matchup

1) is standstill necessary/worthwhile? i'm debating cutting standstill for like +1 goyf, +2 echoing truth, +1 rushing river...this will give me my 4th goyf, and help shore up some matches...particularly ichorid and eva green (i consider this the worst matchup the deck has...it's 50/50 at best but my overall record against this is like 2-8 all-time, helps against empty the warrens, and helps against opposing goyfs and tombstalkers which if your opponent gets a tombstalker its basically scoop time unless i have nought out and lethal

2) are 4 mishra's factorys too many? i really want to add an academy ruins...this would definetly help when it comes to recurring engineered explosives, possibly getting a tormod's crypt/pithing needle back as well

i think that about sums up my questions, any input would be appreciated...don't suggest adding spell snare or changing colors or anything...i really like my deck as is...just considering the changes listed....and wondering if anybody else really hates standstills as much as me :(

thanks

BKclassic

10-18-2008, 03:13 AM

I feel like there is some kind of connection between you not being too keen on both Mishra's Factory and Standstill, though I am not really sure what that might be. Play the deck slightly different? I used to be not such a fan of Standstill myself, running 3 Stills and 2 Ponders, but the more I play the deck, the better I have gotten at making Standstill work for me, and have since gone back to just 4 Stills.

Also, you are running 22 lands. Most people run 21, so you could get an extra Goyf by cutting a land, or you could make the 22nd land Academy Ruins.

BreathWeapon

10-18-2008, 04:36 PM

Is the lone Trickbind you guys are using better than Merchant Scroll? It doesn't really seem to serve any purpose other than increasing the number of Dreadnought enablers, so why not just replace it with a tutor for Stifle and be able to grab Force of Will or bounce too?

The_Red_Panda

10-18-2008, 05:05 PM

List

I would cut the Shushers out of the board. I really can't think of a matchup where it's vital that you have shusher, considering he requires both your splash colors (or a double) to cast, and takes up mana trying to make your cards uncounterable. In most matchups where you want to win counterwars, you're better off with REB/Pyroblast anyways, as it doesn't require the same amounts of mana, and can catch your opponent off gaurd.

After that you could move the grips/1 or 2 EE's into the board, and then have room for that 4th goyf you want. Also, I don't know how big Ichorid is in your meta, but I run at least 3 crypts in the board. Dunno what you would take out for it though.

As for standstill, I think it requires a certain type of play style for it to function properly. This deck has a desire to play out like Threshold does, but in reality we're a bit more control than they are. It's just that nought gives you hands that are actually faster than thresh is, so the deck feels more aggro-control than it really is. What I would suggest is that if you want to cut standstill, I would very much suggest cutting it for another, equally powerful draw engine. I have no idea what this engine is, but without a draw engine in the deck it's just not going to function as well.

psu42

10-18-2008, 07:23 PM

kilukru

10-19-2008, 10:31 AM

Gratz on Rod and Ben for kicking ass with the deck at the the 5 years aniversaries!

Now you two, guide us with your wisdom, Rod you talked about sideboard changes? What are they, my list is like 1 or 2 card of yours and i got a tourney comming up in 2 week, im curious as to what you would change.

Tks

klaus

10-19-2008, 10:52 AM

Now you two, guide us with your wisdom, Rod you talked about sideboard changes? What are they, my list is like 1 or 2 card of yours and i got a tourney comming up in 2 week, im curious as to what you would change.
Tks

I know the Q was not adressed at me but I could see those Pyroclasms become Firespouts.
The BEBs seems somewhat overkill aswell: Dragonstompy (UR Dreadstill laughs at moon effects). Goblins: More Firespouts would be better. TES/Belcher: MD kills both G2 (G3?_w..what?). Burn: CB wins those games easily.

I could see something along the lines of:
-2 Pyroclasm
-3 BEB
+3 Firespout
+2 Annul :smile:/ Threads of Disloyalty/Rushing River

Thoughts anyone?

The_Red_Panda

10-19-2008, 12:30 PM

the shushers are amazing and have won me so many rounds/games i can't think of them all, they get around counters, counterbalances and you don't have to pump mana into him until they choose to counter a spell, so it's basically a you can counter if you want to waste a spell...it's amazing

They also feel distinctly win-more. You run quite a few counters, so you really shouldn't have a hard time winning counterwars against just about anything but like, hardcore MUC matchups. If you're looking for pure CB beatings, Kgrip is going to be a better, and more versatile, solution about 90% of the time. It also only costs {2G}, which is only a lone {G} for colored mana, which is a big deal in this deck. In comparison, to protect your first spell with Shusher, you have to have invested {R/G}{R/G}{R/G}, which is more taxing on the manabase. After that you should consider that Kgrip also hits quite a few spells in other decks. I, for instance, board in Kgrip against Dragonstompy as well as CB decks, whereas I wouldn't dream of trying to bring Shusher in against Dragonstompy, as it isn't going to do anything.

I know the Q was not adressed at me but I could see those Pyroclasms become Firespouts.
The BEBs seems somewhat overkill aswell: Dragonstompy (UR Dreadstill laughs at moon effects). Goblins: More Firespouts would be better. TES/Belcher: MD kills both G2 (G3?_w..what?). Burn: CB wins those games easily.

I haven't had BEB's in the board since before Gencon, and I really haven't minded not having them. The one time I missed them was against Goyf Sligh. Their creatures are fairly close to immune to firespouts, and I really want removal for stuff like Burning Tree shaman, which makes CB-Top really hurt. But if that's the only reason to have them, there's a better card for that slot, so I guess I agree with you.

I still wanna hear what they have to say, though.

raharu

10-19-2008, 02:50 PM

I, for instance, board in Kgrip against Dragonstompy as well as CB decks, whereas I wouldn't dream of trying to bring Shusher in against Dragonstompy, as it isn't going to do anything.

Chalice of the Void would like to have a word with you.

...Goyf Sligh. Their creatures are fairly close to immune to firespouts, and I really want removal for stuff like Burning Tree shaman, which makes CB-Top really hurt. But if that's the only reason to have them, there's a better card for that slot, so I guess I agree with you.

The only creatures in Goyf Sligh that live through a Pyroclasm, much less a Firespout, are Tarmogoyf, and Figure if Destiny, if you happen to gt into the late game. Most lists don't even run BTS anymore. Are you sure that you don't mean 'Zilla Stompy?

Rood

10-19-2008, 06:25 PM

Dreadstill wins source tournament guys...game over. Congrats on Ben (Force of Will) for taking 3rd with UGR Dreadstill as well. I've been saying for a while now that the UR build is a hell of alot more consistent in terms of your mana base and control aspect as oposed to UGR or UG with Goyfs. Final record at the end of it all was 8-0-2 with some very awesome matches all day. The maindeck was solid as hell, but the board could definetally be revamped...although it did help me a TON. Echoing Truth is savage.

Apparently Dreadstill is a good deck everyone, who knew? Tournament report will come shortly.

J.V.

10-19-2008, 11:46 PM

List?

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Voclanic Island

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm

Damnosus

10-20-2008, 12:36 AM

Is there a matchup analysis for the UR Dreadstill somewhere? I am having trouble finding it, and as such would appreciate any help in finding one. Thanks :laugh:

jazzykat

10-20-2008, 12:52 AM

I just playtested the winning list, Rood's, and while I have been really digging the UGR list I think this is may be better. Well, at least it is easier to play. 3 colors with so little land and it seems like everyone on MWS was playing at least wastelands...

I think that spell snare is viable in developed metagames. I am not sure what else could be done with it.

While I am not advocating cutting them I find that I am often pitching trinket mage instead of actually using him.

J.V.

10-20-2008, 01:00 AM

Rood's tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11607) is up.

godryk

10-20-2008, 03:31 AM

Rood

10-20-2008, 03:41 PM

First of all, congrats on the finish. Seriously man, congrats.

In my playtesting I found that most of games are won just by Dreadstill's control tools and by Dreadnought, so your choice of going UR doesn't look weird to me, but I have to ask: Didn't you miss Goyf anytime? Having and un-grip-able decently-sized ass is sometimes awesome, so I'll remake the question: why did you leave Goyf out?

Manabase issues? Goyf been bad or just not that necesary? Ur being superior to UG?

This weekend I'm going to this (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Liga+de+Legacy+de+Madrid+%231+09%2F08) and, well, I'm probably taking Dreadstill (even though it scoops to Shatter), so any comments about how is the most efficient Dreadstill shit right now will be appreciated.

Congrats again. :smile:

You basically have it correct, UR version is way more controlling...and Dreadnought is much more potent compared to UGR. The manabase of UR is incredible I can't even begin to say how many times I laughed at a PoP or Wasteland that tournament. 6 Basic Islands is rediculous, I don't care who you're playing against. That being said, I think UGR Dreadstill is a fine deck and can definetally take down a tournament. Good luck at the tournament ;).

-PS: Beware of Shatter it OWNS.

kilukru

10-20-2008, 03:46 PM

A tough on sideboard (again) for Ur version:

First the out's :

Seems like BEB is dropping out of favor and i can see why, DS is hardly played anymore, goblin is winable as it is, burn isnnt a bad MU at all and i have never played goyf-slight so i dont know how usefull it would be against them.

Beside that SB seem's good, (pyroclasm vs firespout is a personal choice)

Now what can we get in? i beleive that the main downfall of the deck right now, are the troublesome permanent that manage to resolve. So i propose a bad idea that could actuly work (I dont really like the idea but lets try it anyway)!

Add either K-Grip or O-Ring to board and either 1 Tropical island or 1 Tundra MB.

Ok I know about all teh flaw of this idea, lower the basic land count, 2nd splash vulnerable to LD with only 1 colored land etc... But from what ive seen, in the g splash the most loved g card wasn'nt goyf but K-Grip, same thing about the now dead w splash, everyone liked O-Ring in there because it took care of about everything the rest of the deck could not.

So,if anyone got somefree time, plz playtest this and give us a report, I got a tourney in a couple week and no real time for testing :) thanks

Rood

10-20-2008, 08:54 PM

Can't say as I would ever cut BEB from my board...with the current rise of TES Shushers are going to be everywhere. Also Goblins will never really die out entirely and there's always going to be at least a couple of Sligh players.

Good thing for us most builds run answers to the trouble permanents =) (See E-truth, EE, K-grip, O-ring.)

kilukru if you're interested in a good white splash build that can handle mostly anything

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
5 [ARE] Island (8)
3 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity

That should work.

NOTE: Swords can be run in place of Ring but I elected to go for the permanent issue in this build.

4x can always be boarded as an option over Mage if you don't like him.

kilukru

10-22-2008, 11:42 AM

I think im gonna stick with the mono U MD, I like having a hight counter count against unknow opponents.

Am i the only one who's having trouble against fast agrro (from the mad zur's stat's of the source tourney seem like no, Dreadstill worst matchup where affinity and gobo)?

dregnought racing is a good solution but kinda ureliable, so SB ideas : Null Rod seem almost playable these day, it outright rape affinity and screw a good deal of combo engine (LED, petal, Mox) even if it's kinda slow in that role. Also take out EE and company.

Propaganda is good angainst gobo and elves, but affinity dosnt realy care much.

Im starting to see the use of a team in this game to test those dam theories! Well just corupting people around here to play legacy is already hard enought the team will come later, when i move out of this hole...

Happy Gilmore

10-22-2008, 12:15 PM

-PS: Beware of Shatter it OWNS.

I assume your refering to Ancient Grudge, which does indeed wreck your day.

jazzykat

10-22-2008, 01:08 PM

@Rood (obviously because he won with a UR build) and others who have a lot of experience with the UR build: If you were going to play in a scrub meta with not idea what was going to be played would you keep spell snares MD? If not what would you substitute them for (Jace, counterspell, magus of the moon...)? Generally speaking I would lean towards a UGr version but I love the manabase stability of Ur.

@The fellow having trouble with fast aggro, you have pyroclasm/firespout in the board so you can theoretically up the number. Energy Flux is a hillarious solution to affinity but is narrow and a turn slower than null rod. I would ask how about annul as it also counters charbelecher, LED, counterbalance, oblivion ring, sensei's divining top, opposing dreadnoughts etc.

@Trickbind: If anyone still cares, 2 in the Ur version are way cool because vs. a control opponent they have to make sure you don't have one or counter the nought, because once it resolves and you put it's trigger on the stack they move to OMG dig for removal. That and the fact that so many decks play lots of fetches you don't want to have to make the decision...do I stifle there fetch or drop the nought combo...do both! With a 3 color manabase I think it becomes a little more relevant vs. opposing wastelands but mostly you will be offending with them, not defending :P

Rood

10-22-2008, 09:58 PM

@jazzykat: Definetally keep the snares in the maindeck, they are just way too good against a ton of cards in the format right now.

Fast aggro can definetally be an issue, normally you can stall long enough with a factory to drop a Dreadnought and win.

@Trickbind: This card is one of the major reasons I love playing Dreadstill. I cannot tell you how many games this card alone has won me. The fact you can counter a fetchland and they cannot respond is absolutely insane. If you go turn 2 Trickbind on fetch--->Wasteland on your turn that is normally game against alot of oponents.

The_Red_Panda

10-23-2008, 04:16 AM

The only creatures in Goyf Sligh that live through a Pyroclasm, much less a Firespout, are Tarmogoyf, and Figure if Destiny, if you happen to gt into the late game. Most lists don't even run BTS anymore. Are you sure that you don't mean 'Zilla Stompy?

Goyf stompy, Dryad Stompy, 'Zilla Stompy, Sligh this sligh that. It's red, it's green, and it has creatures with large asses. God only knows how many variations there can be. Yes, the match up is different for a bunch of them, but my point stands, the only time I missed BEBs was when they weren't there to bring down red fat.

Chalice of the Void would like to have a word with you.

Krosan Grip > Shusher vs. CotV. Yes, there is a grand ol' one card that shusher is really gonna do anything against in DS. No, that does not mean I would ever side in Shushers against decks packing CotV. I'd rather have cards that can actually deal with the problem, rather than just turning their CotV into a one-sided Sphere of Resistance.

Can't say as I would ever cut BEB from my board...with the current rise of TES Shushers are going to be everywhere. Also Goblins will never really die out entirely and there's always going to be at least a couple of Sligh players.

I was going to say something about not liking BEBs, but the more I talk about it the more they seem necessary. I just don't like having 6+ slots of sideboard space to go blasts.

Also, could somebody address Pyroclasm v. Firespout? Is costing one less really that big of a deal? Or is there some hidden bonus I'm missing...

Rood

10-23-2008, 03:23 PM

I was going to say something about not liking BEBs, but the more I talk about it the more they seem necessary. I just don't like having 6+ slots of sideboard space to go blasts.

Also, could somebody address Pyroclasm v. Firespout? Is costing one less really that big of a deal? Or is there some hidden bonus I'm missing...

They are necessary is the thing. Sometimes I'll have tournaments where I'll do well but not use REBs or BEBs for that tournament. I'm still glad I had them though because if I had gotten into a matchup that requires them (REB-->blue control, BEB-->Sligh/Goblins) I would really need them.

The only reason I run clasm over Spout is because I don't own any at the moment. But to be honest they've grown dust on them the last 5 or so tournaments I'll probally cut them for something else.

Enigma

10-24-2008, 10:28 AM

I participated a local weekly tournament (just 3 rounds) yesterday night with the UGr deck and finished 3rd.

2-0 Against Goyf Sligh ->

1st game: Dreadnought @ 2nd turn with back-up against his vindicate and removal = gg
2nd game: Firespout, Counter-top and slowly goes to the win

1-0 Against UB Stifle Nought (without factory's and standstill) ->

1st game: I counter all of its threath and swing with a quickly Dreadnought.
2nd Game: Pretty long game where he takes me at 10 but I finally take the advantage of the game and we don't succed to finish, I still have 10 life and he has 5 and I have a Tarmogoyf in play.

2-1 Against Team America ->

1st game: I stifle his fetch thrice and I swing with a Dreadnought for the win.
2nd game: There's a huge Goyf combat and he finally succed to cast Tombs after I bounced it once in his hand and finish me with it.
3rd game: He's aggressiv on mana denial pretty early on the game when I kept a 1 non-basic land hand at the start. I'm kind of afraid but I finally pass this mana screw tempo and get Nought with my 2nd land I searched with Top. He has 2 goyfs in play he double block and I cast a tarmogoyf after my attack phase and he scoop.

If we had a fourth round, I think I would have done something even better. Top 8:

1. Solidarity (9)
2. BG-Sui (9)
3. UGR-Dreadstill (9)
4. Swan-Thresh (7)
5. White Stax (7)
6. 42 Lands (6)
7. Goblins (6)
8. Team America (6)

jazzykat

10-24-2008, 10:51 AM

Enigma

10-24-2008, 03:09 PM

I have to admit it was a pretty nice metagame yesterday. Usually, there is more random decks. Note that there was also Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam, Reanimate, The Rock, Survival...

But also an Extended Faeries and some random decks but they rarely succeed to finish in Top 8.

klaus

10-25-2008, 04:08 AM

-EDITED-
So I'm going to bring the list below to an upcoming tournament of app. 50 players and now I'm looking for some advice concerning the choices.
The approach was basically taking Roodmistah's UR version and adding white for STP, Mage, Disenchant and better EE's.
Testing his deck I frequently lost to aggro builds (Standstill was a dead card way too often) and pretty much folded to a resolved Dark Confidant so that was when I realized this deck could use some spot removal.

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 (-1) Swords to Plowshares..................I just wanna be able to drop Standstill on turn 2 so good ol' STP just seems like the way to go. Still, maybe cut 1 to add land#21? ......Also, O. Ring seemed to mana hunrgy for a 20 land mana base...

4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2Trinket Mage---------(-1)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
(40)

6 Fetchies
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland.
4 Mishra's Factory
(20)
..........Should land #21 be and Island, Wasteland, A. Ruins or Plains??

SB:
2 Firespout
3 REB
2 Needle
2 (-1) Tormod's Crypt ................possibly a split between Relic and Crypt
2 (-1) Disenchant......................debatable choice, I gotta admit.
2 Meddling Mage.................Ad Nauseam needs more hate.
+1 Serenity
+1 Relic of Progenitus

THX!

jazzykat

10-25-2008, 10:52 AM

Wow the above build makes me want to play Ms. America but if you put aside my obnoxiousness...

I have never had a problem with combo decks so I am not sure it you need the meddling mages but you would never have put them in if you didn't. I still find daze, fow, and to a smaller extent the 4 stifle and 1-2 trickbinds to be adequate. Depending on the build BEB and REB also disrupt their enablers.

BKclassic

10-25-2008, 12:52 PM

I don't know if you are open to the idea of other splashes (or have the resources) but if you plan on playing aggro alot, Tarmogoyf really helps Standstill be much less dead against Aggro by typically being a moat for :1::g: since it can hold off 4 or so lesser creatures on its own.

kilukru

10-25-2008, 01:07 PM

Klaus : cutting 1 sword for a 4th basic island seem's like the thing to do. Beside that I would suggest some change in the SB, is your having trouble with aggro it probably mean goblin , and goy slight, so BEB sound like a good choice. I would also suggest O-ring (yes again) over disentchant, for 1 more mana , you add creature to the list of thing it take care of. Also a third MM would be nice, 2 is a little low for consistency and he's a card you want to hit when you need him.

So MD :
-1 STP
+1 Island

SB
-1 REB
-1 Needle
-3 Disenchant
+2 BEB
+2 O-ring
+1 MM

SB seem a little too spreed, but can give a little boost agaisnt almost anything.

P.S. this is the list im trying right now :

// Lands
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [RAV] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [10E] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

I love the mono U mainboard, pithing was put in mb because SB was too cramped. The card I miss the most in the Sb is Echoing Truth, that card really is a thrump, but token arent really a big deal where I play so i can live without it. 4 basic island is a little low, but beiing able to effectively use both spalsh is important.

Rood

10-25-2008, 07:30 PM

klaus your list looks really solid. Me and my teammate HammafistRoob were talking today about how insane StP is in Dreadstill. I really, really like the white splash and I think I may consider playing it in the near future definetally. O-Ring out of the board is really savage, nice way to deal with Counterbalance definetally and strong against decks like Stax. But yeah the random E-tutor and O-ring seem poor, another basic Island and Trinket mage will be way stronger in those slots for you. Trinket Mage is really busted I just can't ever see myself going below 3 of that card ever. 21 Land seems correct though 20 is REALLy risking it I say definetally don't. It also enables you to play 3x O-Ring in the board, which I think you definetally should.

Pertaining to your splash of red, I still say 2 color variants of Dreadstill are way more consistent in terms of your mana stabiliy. If you want to keep 3 colors then that's fine, but definetally considering just going U/W and running a few more basic islands. O-Ring and Swords pretty much answer everything you need... you SHOULD beat aggro with those as removal packages.

Cheers.

Guy I Don't Know

10-25-2008, 07:55 PM

what is pithing needle for? aether vial and deed are the two main things i could see boarding that in against but goblins for instance run hooligans and people with deed usually have EEs also, so I am wondering how effective it is.

b4r0n

10-26-2008, 01:59 AM

@ Guy I Don't Know: In addition to answering Deed, Needle is pretty strong against Painter and decks with recursion (e.g. Ruins/Stronghold). You have Stifle effects to answer Deed/EE, but Stifle won't do much good against Ruins/Stronghold/Grindstone since they can activate it every turn.

General question: most lists are running 3 Trinket Mage, 2 Top. Has there been any consideration for flipping those numbers? In other words, is there a specific rationale for running only 2 Tops? I mean, I realize that you can Trinket Mage for Top, but I feel like Top is good enough that I'd just want to draw it more consistently instead of having to spend 3 mana tutoring for it.

Enigma

10-26-2008, 10:19 AM

Trinket is rarely a bad top deck. 1, it can be pitched to fow. 2, when we have stifles in hand, it's nice to see him. 3, he can go search for EE when the board is full of shit.

Top, when we have already have one in play, is the worse top deck I want.

+ I need more 3cc with CB and not necessarily more 1cc.

---

As for the white splash, there's something I like of it. I don't know if I'm the only one who saw the synergy between O ring and Stifle? I find it could be useful sometimes to stifle its "when it goes to the graveyard,..." ability. Stuff that can be annoying for the opponent who did everything to have his permanent back.

But seriously, I'm not ready to depart of my Goyfs and my Firespouts for it. I will have to check if the MU vs EvaGreen and ITF are better with the white splash, which could be a good argument.

Enigma

10-26-2008, 11:15 AM

Hey. I read on the MU's table someone did for the Source tournament that Dreadstill went 1-1-0 against Eva green. I would like to have a report from those matchs pleaaase. I know it's not J.V. nor Rood so... who is it? Maybe ForceofWill?

klaus

10-27-2008, 07:19 AM

G'day everyone.

I managed to pilot the list I posted above to an undefeated finish at a 40 people event, splitting prizes with Fredmaster.

A brief report can be found HERE (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=288647#post288647).

kilukru

10-27-2008, 11:25 AM

Nice Klaus, im kinda glad, I wanted the Uwr list to work, I guess i should re-think my take on Stp vs O-ring vs Disentchant.

But I still maintain that the deck should have 21 land and the SB 3 Meddling mages!

I dont know what i would cut in the MD , but for the SB i would cut 1 needle for the 3rd mage, mage is just better, needle always feel olike a plan B for me.

And Stars&Stripes as a name , I would go with "Habs" , but that just the Québécois (french Canadian) in me speaking :)

klaus

10-27-2008, 11:48 AM

And Stars&Stripes as a name , I would go with "Habs", but that just the Québécois (french Canadian) in me speaking :)

What's 'Habs' supposed to mean?
Anyway, if this was a French forum I would've named it 'Croissant Terrible':laugh:, but that's just the opportunist in me acting:wink: .

kilukru

10-27-2008, 12:20 PM

It's the nickname of the Montreal Canadian (hockey team) in french their nickname is Le Bleu Blanc Rouge (the blue white and red)

And you should know that I really enjoy my croissants!

Rood

10-27-2008, 03:34 PM

I agree W splash Dreadstill isn't played enough...it's very good.

claudio.r

10-27-2008, 07:29 PM

J.V.

10-27-2008, 07:36 PM

There's been a lot of talk about this deck lately about the viability of it... Of course it's viable because it's ben posting good results everywhere, the question is, is dreadnought the best win condition, or it is just a flashy condition just to hide the real "big thing" going behind this deck, the blue control, mishra's factory/standstill, trinket mage toolbox ?
Even though dreadnought can end the game in 2 turns, it still looks fragile, especially with more and more people knowing the deck and preparing for him.

So, is dreadnought the real deal, or is he hidding the "real" deck ?

Just some food for thought...
(sorry about the bad english)

edit: i forgot to mention.... the consistent manabase...
Honestly I'm getting really sick of answering this question. Yes the Dreadnoughts are the real deal. Sure you win plenty of games without them, but you also win a ton of games that you would otherwise lose without them. No, no other creature can fill the role. Tarmogoyf just gets chumped or stares at another Tarmogoyf. Dreadnought just wins because he's huge and he tramples. Now please STOP ASKING IF THE DECK REALLY NEEDS DREADNOUGHT. On a side note, this question tells me that you have never tested the deck so please, next time before you question the mechanics of a deck TEST IT for yourself.

Edit: Sorry if I came off as a gerk that really wasn't directed at you Claudio, just that same over asked question in general.

BKclassic

10-27-2008, 07:38 PM

Honestly I'm getting really sick of answering this question. Yes the Dreadnoughts are the real deal. Sure you win plenty of games without them, but you also win a ton of games that you would otherwise lose without them. No, no other creature can fill the role. Tarmogoyf just gets chumped or stares at another Tarmogoyf. Dreadnought just wins because he's huge and he tramples. Now please STOP ASKING IF THE DECK REALLY NEEDS DREADNOUGHT. On a side note, this question tells me that you have never tested the deck so please, next time before you question the mechanics of a deck TEST IT for yourself.

Edit: Sorry if I came off as a gerk that really wasn't directed at you Claudio, just that same over asked question in general.

Just out of curiosity, does this mean you are getting off the Tarmogoyf train?

J.V.

10-27-2008, 07:45 PM

Just out of curiosity, does this mean you are getting off the Tarmogoyf train?

I still run Tarmogoyf, the card is ridiculous, Tarmogoyf just plain and simply is NOT a replacement for Dreadnought.

claudio.r

10-27-2008, 07:48 PM

FoolofaTook

10-27-2008, 07:49 PM

Dreadnought is a two turn kill when he lands. Particularly in the control mirror that kind of win condition is very strong, because it allows almost no room for recovery after the game tips. The only other creature in Legacy that might be as impactful in the shell is Tarmogoyf and for all of the benefits he provides in terms of not needing a stifle effect he doesn't have the same impact that Dreadnought does.

Here are the things that Dreadnought can theoretically do that Tarmogoyf just cannot:

1. Kill Bridges from Below on turn 1. A real benefit in a deck that can also drop Engineered Explosives on turn 2 and activate it to get rid of 3 or 4 tokens before dying.

2. Kill the opponent on turn 4 after landing turn 2 when the right opportunity presents itself. Or when you just have no choice. I remember vividly my opponent in one of the Hadley tournaments screaming when I dropped a turn 2 Dreadnought (not playing Dreadstill) on the play and he realized his strong Ichorid draw was going to lose.

3. Stand-down an opposing Dreadnought.

4. Make an opposing Tarmogoyf seem weak and insignificant in the overall scheme of things.

5. Trample over a recurring Mishra's Factory or Mutavault chump blocker.

12/12 Trample is just an absolutely ridiculous beater, even if it requires an enabling card. It's so ridiculous that I expect that some deck will be built (maybe using the Shards of Alara cards that support Dreadnought) that will likely cause it to be banned from Legacy at some point.

J.V.

10-27-2008, 07:54 PM

Maybe i didn't explained myself very well, i was not asking if the deck really need dreadnought, my question was more like, is drednought that makes this deck so good, or the consistent engine behind it.
I played some matches with the deck in MWS just to have the feeling but
i didn't really realized what pushes the deck to the top... but hey, maybe it's just the mix of the two...

Ok, on that note yes I would say it is the mix of the two. If you focus on the Dreadnought, you will be beaten by a blue control deck. If you focus on the blue control deck you will be smashed by a 12/12, that's why the deck is so good.

claudio.r

10-27-2008, 08:14 PM

From "all" the decks with a blue shell (force, daze, BS, etc) would you recommend this one to take to a field full of little kids with their elves, zombies, whatever, creature decks ? Because here where I live it's really hard to get the cards, and i do have some large part of the blue control package. Last tournament i went, i took a threshold variant with black for extra removal, and somehow i still managed to get my ass kicked by little kids that just dump creatures on the board.

I know that little kid aggro it's not the blue control player best friend,but i need somehow to have a better chance of beating them...

kilukru

10-27-2008, 08:27 PM

Fast aggro isnnt dreadstill best MU, it's not a bad matchup but against little kid aggro i would suggest a deck like Belcher if you really want to rape them :eek:

But yeah Ugr dread would do great you get tarmo and firespout/pyroclasm, ee and stuff to get them, and t2 dreadgnought is usuly gg against that kind of deck.

Enigma

10-27-2008, 09:58 PM

I'm currently testing against Eva green and have problems if I can't succed to install a CB/top lock or a quick mana denial + quick dreadnought.

I check my SB:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Chill

And I don't see anything to break their disrupt spells that generally kills me. So I started searching for some anti-disrupt cards:

Misdirection:
You may remove a blue card in your hand from the game rather than pay Misdirection's mana cost.
Change the target of target spell with a single target

Pros:
-Free so we can play it on first turn if the opponent won the roll and has Thoughtseize 1st turn
-Allow us to check opponent's hand when we do it on Thoughtseize
-Pretty versatile

Cons:
-We must discard two cards if we can't hardcast it (most of the time we will not hardcast it).

Disrupt:
Change the target of target spell with a single target unless that spell's controller pays {2}

Pros:
-Doesn't cause to discards a card so it's 1 for 1. Possibly 1 for 2 (in the case of Thoughtseize)

Cons:
-Cost 1 so we can't do it on a won roll/1st turn Thoughtseize.
-Bad on late game (this is not that much important because disrupt break us early on the game)

Life force:
{G}{G}: Counter target black spell.

Too much expansive on G mana.

Compost:
Whenever a black card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, you may draw a card

Pros:
-Good all the fucking game long
-Completly dodge the card disavantage of the opponent's disrupt

Cons:
-Cost 2... so it can be discarded before we have the time to play it.
-Not really versatile.

Have other ideas? Looks like Misdirection or Compost are the best choices.

PM

For Uwr decks; Spiritual focus or True Believer are pretty good cards.

FoolofaTook

10-27-2008, 10:29 PM

2x Threads of Disloyalty and 2x Echoing Truth in the sideboard. That's about as good a shot as you are going to get against a disruption engine that tries to knock you off balance and get up a cheap big critter fast. Threads takes everything but the Tombstalkers and Echong Truth slows them down until you can get something set on your side.

The 2x Threads and 2x ET are pretty standard sideboard stuff for Dreadstill builds.

Enigma

10-27-2008, 11:38 PM

FoolofaTook

10-28-2008, 12:13 AM

I already have 3x ET MD so I know it's pretty useful against Tombs but I feel I need something else and I doubt that Threads could fill this need... Could you prove I am wrong?

I can't prove it, however Threads has been a fairly consistent inclusion in the SB of Dreadstill in many builds. It's one of the very few cards that you can top deck against Eva Green type aggro AFTER they've gone off on you and put the win on the table and beat them based solely on the top deck.

It also is one of those elusive 3cc spells that you like to have just sitting there on top of your deck when Krosan Grip or Wipe Away comes rolling in.

Rood

10-28-2008, 12:14 AM

Just try to resolve a CB or a Standstill at all costs against EG...and don't run crappy manabases or they will have a field day with Wastelands.

Forbiddian

10-28-2008, 12:38 AM

Maybe i didn't explained myself very well, i was not asking if the deck really need dreadnought, my question was more like, is drednought that makes this deck so good, or the consistent engine behind it.
I played some matches with the deck in MWS just to have the feeling but
i didn't really realized what pushes the deck to the top... but hey, maybe it's just the mix of the two...

I don't know, is Ichorid good because of Narcomoeba or is it good because of Bridge from Below?

Ironstickman

10-28-2008, 06:55 AM

Hi everyone,

My nought playset is arriving soon, and I'm going to start testing/playing the Uw version first. I have always been fond of E.tutor. It increases the probability of t2 nought and works nicely with balance (and the rest of the deck). I was thinking of a 2/2split between tutor and t.mage.

I had in mind a very similar list as the UW list posted by Roodmistah p.32,

-1 trinket mage
-1 land/explosives/undecided (but surely I don't want to go below 14 blue sources)
+2 E.tutor.

I really like the 3 O-Rings main since they give quite a good curve for balance
and are always useful. Did someone miss the spell snares by the way?

As for the sideboard, it is quite undetermined yet, but I guess I'd like swords and BEB's against aggro/Goblins and some silver bullets such as needle/serenity/seal of cleasing perhaps.

Meddling Mage: How and when to board them?, Is it run basically against combo, Stax and krosan grip?

My only worry with the Uw version is that without goyf and firesprout/clasm, goblins can give you a hard time (Rg, Rgb) aswell as the random (but popular) critter decks. Is there any effective sweeper to take clasm's place (other than the too narrow tivadar's crusade)?

thanks,

klaus

10-28-2008, 07:47 AM

3 Oblivion Rings main? This will surely slow the deck down. Imo 3 CMC3 spells are the perfect number, anything beyond this will end in slowness.

If you face aggro a lot, pack 4 Swords to Plowshares and 2 EE (admittedly better in 3 color versions but still your best sweeper) this should suffice.

Ch@os

10-28-2008, 08:01 AM

Meddling Mage: How and when to board them?, Is it run basically against combo, Stax and krosan grip?

For me are only two effective versions of the deck, the first one with Meddling Mage SB naming Grip. And the other one with Goyf for being not a Grip target.

The O.Ring is a good SB option without green, but i would not maindeck them 3x, the tutorable EE does this job better.

Rood

10-28-2008, 09:53 AM

Yeah from my initial list I posted then I'd have to say to replace O-Rings with Swords in the maindeck. I'm not sure what you'd cut for the 4th maybe a land or Trinket Mage.

klaus

10-28-2008, 11:09 AM

I'm thinking about dropping 1 of my 2 SB Needles in favor of 1 Threads of Disloyalty (which is tutorable via my MD E.Tutor). For reference, here is my list again (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=288647#post288647)

I'm pretty aware of the pros and cons I just haven't done much testing. I feel it's too slow against aggro and too conditional against Threshold (sometimes).
Then again it can win you games (steeling a Goyf/Bob/Nought etc..) and is by no means a win more card..
Q1: So what would you board it in against?
Q2: What experiences did you make with the card?

Enigma

10-28-2008, 11:19 AM

Rood

10-28-2008, 11:23 AM

I almost want to say to run Control Magic over threads just because of Tombstalker. Alot of people have recently began playing him and it's only one extra mana for ANY creature. Normally it wouldn't be relevant but grabbing a Tombstalker is huge.

klaus

10-28-2008, 11:25 AM

I goldfished against EvaGreen and went 5-3 in favor of Dreadstill. Pretty happy of that. Threads won me one of those games. 2 of these 3 lost was pre-board matchs so I'm kind of satisfied with SB's changes.

New SB:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Chill
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty

What's your reasoning behind BEBs over REBs? only 2 Crypts? 1 random Chill?

I almost want to say to run Control Magic over threads just because of Tombstalker. Alot of people have recently began playing him and it's only one extra mana for ANY creature. Normally it wouldn't be relevant but grabbing a Tombstalker is huge.

The problem being that Tombstalker.dec oftentimes deploys mana denial, making it tough to get 2UU.

Rood

10-28-2008, 11:32 AM

Enigma

10-28-2008, 11:49 AM

What's your reasoning behind BEBs over REBs? only 2 Crypts? 1 random Chill?
With BEBs, Dragon stompy, Goblins and Sligh are all way better MU than without.
Same thing for the Chill. He completely break Burn and slow Sligh, Gobs and D Stompy.

I used to have 3 Crypt's but I don't know what to throw away for a 3rd one.

As for the Control Magic, I think we rarely have 4 mana for it but I guess I should give it a try.

Reagens

10-28-2008, 01:14 PM

I Think it's well worth the risk of having Magic. The one extra land you're going to need to play it shouldn't cost you the game by any means. Tombstalker really is a problem for this deck I'm sure you've all noticed this as well...and Threads will just be a dead card in your hand. Not to mention Magic is randomly good against stompy archtype as well as Survival and Rock (See Doran.)

So what would a viable sideboard using your mainboard from your 1st place look like? You already indicated that you wanted to revamp your sideboard anyway.

What was used:

SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [b] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm

What it could/should become?

Personally I'd consider:

2 echoing truth
3 blue elemental blast
3 red elemental blast
2 control magic
3 pyroclasm (firespout seems a waste)
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt

Only thing that bites me is that there is very little cc3 and I very often want something of cc3 when I have counterbalance...

klaus

10-28-2008, 01:35 PM

3 pyroclasm (firespout seems a waste)

How so?
Firespout hits tons of creatures that Pyroclasm doesn't.
Also, keep in mind that tribal decks boast Clasm hosers ala Goblin King (each common tribe having access to at least2 =8+copies).
if you're running more than 2 Clasm effects I could see a 1/2-split, though.

godryk

10-28-2008, 03:30 PM

klaus

10-28-2008, 04:03 PM

ANT...
It seems that UWx Dreadstill is a serious contender.

Yupp. :smile:
if I was expecting a decent amount of combo in my meta, I'd up the M.Mage count to 3. That's really all I'd consider.
4 Daze
4 FOW
0-3 Spell Snare
3 CB
4 Stifle
PLUS: our beloved big baby.
PLUS: Mage from the board...(naming AN?)
...should make it a cake walk.

In regard to UwR lists you could even board in REBs (targets: Pact of Negation, Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm, and possibly Merchant Scroll, Ponder, Spell Snare).

I'd probably board something like
-2 Trinket Magi (too slow) -1 STP (!Sword your Nought if they clogg your hand) -2 EE and -1 Oblivion Ring
+3 M.Magi +3 REBs

kiwi

10-28-2008, 04:03 PM

I played with dreadstill in a tourney last Sunday and I found Ant in round 3 (2-0 for me ), I think that Dreadstill is the nightmare for combo decks Force of will, daze, stifles, and Counterbalance these stuff are awesome vs combo.

I think that Meddling Mage is not necessary for defeating Ant IMO counterbalance > meddling mage (ant can use tutors for finding some bouncer), meddling mage is better againts Krosan Grips, but if you are very afraid of Ant you can use W version with mages...

Finally one last advice, dont doubt you have to do mulligan if its necessary for finding a Force of Will or daze (if you start the game,) you need protection for stoping his turn 1.

BKclassic

10-28-2008, 04:21 PM

I've play ANT a bunch of times on MWS, and the only match I've lost was Against a guy who decided lands don't have a converted mana cost of 0 for counterbalance. Anyway, I have found that if you Stifle or Wasteland one of their lands, this is often devastating for them. Also, my testing with ANT has revealed that if you can just deal a few points of damage, Ad Nauseam loses a lot of its effectiveness. It is pretty tough to win with under 15 life, so Tarmogoyf can be really good here, also.

Ironstickman

10-28-2008, 04:54 PM

Forbiddian

10-28-2008, 06:12 PM

You guys ever run 1 Tropical Island in the UR version?

I'm thinking about it: It gives me EE at 3, which is sometimes relevant. Also, it makes my opponent afraid of Grip and Goyf if I dig it out G1. Maybe I could also run Grips in the SB, although atm the Trop is just for EE@3.

It doesn't seem like the one fewer island would make too much of a big deal. I still fetch islands first.

klaus

10-28-2008, 06:13 PM

@Klaus @Ch@os
Yeah, the swords maindeck seem more adecquate than the O-rings, I was just too determined to have more answers against stax permanets, I'm leaning towards Klaus 1 ET /1 O-ring configuration to fit them in, but I'm still worried of playing only 13 color sources.
thx.

On another note, I'd name Infernal tutor with Mage against Nauseaum Tendrils. That way, they'll be unable of comboing via IGG aswell (something quite frequent).
Naming tendrils directly should be ok I think.

Naming Infernal Tutor seems horrible. That way ANT can still cast its namesake aswell as combo the IGGy way. Heck, ANT could still tutor via Mysticals...
I'm still inclined to have my Magi chant A.N. as soon as it resolves they simply have all the answers.

You guys ever run 1 Tropical Island in the UR version?

I'm thinking about it: It gives me EE at 3, which is sometimes relevant. Also, it makes my opponent afraid of Grip and Goyf if I dig it out G1. Maybe I could also run Grips in the SB, although atm the Trop is just for EE@3.

It doesn't seem like the one fewer island would make too much of a big deal. I still fetch islands first.

I like the idea. You could just aswell add 3 Trops, 4 Goyfs and 3 SB Grips, though. :wink:

Rood

10-28-2008, 06:22 PM

ANT seems to grow in my meta, I think the matchup can be considered positive for Dreadstill, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are about this particular pairing, what splash can be more powerful against and what SB cards do you think can be useful, if you considering you need to side in something. I always apreciate the opinion of people who knows the deck better than I do and has top8'ed with it. :wink:

It seems that UWx Dreadstill is a serious contender.

ANT/TES you basically have to try to lose this matchup with any color splash Dreadstill. Any splash is good against these decks, we have the complete package towards fighting combo in FoW, Daze, Snare, Stifle/Trick CB/Top...hell even Standstill is bad for them. Not to mention postboard we bring in REBs/BEBs which can be extremely relevant for alot of their spells. I can't say I've ever lost a round to combo, Ichorid is the best bet to give Dreadstill a run for its money and postboard we have 6 T-Crypts basically (3x Trinket 3x Crypt) as well as E-truth, EE, REB, etc. All you need to beat combo is one Mishra's Factory because you seriously just deny them the ability to combo.

godryk

10-28-2008, 08:13 PM

I agree, but even though the matchup is quite positive, as I expect to face several ANT in tournament the next weeks, I just wanted to know how to improve it and what you all thought. :wink:

Obviously countertop itself is game (Top to counter Chant is savage tech), but I have to disagree about Standstill, as it can turn you into a pseudo-Landstill deck, slowing you down and letting them sculpt their hand. I have lost some games againt ANt due to this. Sometimes I found it useful to break Standstill in his cleanup step, so that I can drop CB+Top next turn, but giving them the leading role seems dangerous to me... :confused:

About Meddling Mage: after some testing against ANT this last weekend playing UGw Threshold I found that sometimes chanting Tendrils can be... interesting. It isn't easy for them to play AdN with Tendrils chanted, and can get a bit risky... I don't know.

I'm considering playing somekind of Uwg build, as I need Krosan Grip out of the board more than REB (while Firespout being apparently innecesary in my meta)...

Anyway this week I probably will be testing Uwr builds and let you know my humble thoughts.

Jaiminho

10-28-2008, 09:07 PM

About Meddling Mage: after some testing against ANT this last weekend playing UGw Threshold I found that sometimes chanting Tendrils can be... interesting. It isn't easy for them to play AdN with Tendrils chanted, and can get a bit risky... I don't know.

You shouldn't risk Mage on Tendrils. If they get to resolve AN, they might be able to get some bounce or removal and you are dead right there. You might want to name Orim's Chant so you won't let them resolve anything important. Their only protection would probably be Duress/Pact, which is too few to be dangerous enough.

jazzykat

10-28-2008, 11:15 PM

While not always the most brilliant move, one hit with a dreadnought makes AdN a lot less appealing, and the second is gg.

All my opponents must have been ass vs. me as I have never dropped a match to AdNT?

Test the match up before worrying and going to color combination X. Honestly, I think white is good for StP so I have no problem with it as an alternative but I would seriously do it for the swords and not the Meddling Magi.

Hey, if you feel more comfortable with them or are convinced you need them go for it. BTW I play rood's winning list in UR and the REB's ruin their day pretty savagely.

Rood

10-29-2008, 12:27 AM

BTW I play rood's winning list in UR and the REB's ruin their day pretty savagely.

Seems like a pretty solid choice, is it battle tested though? =P

Seriously though I agree with jazzkat...you shouldn't lose to AdN unless something retarded happens where you are late to the match and get a game one loss (Lol). BTW who else has tested the UR build? It's incredible consistent which is the main reason I love playing it as oposed to other builds.

FoolofaTook

10-29-2008, 01:53 AM

The Ur version has no red spells maindeck. That's what I find so interesting. It has EE@2, which is really important, but it has no red spells.

Rood

10-29-2008, 02:02 PM

I'm going to edit the opening primer within the next week or so, since the format has gotten alot of new decks and some of the matchups have probally changed a little bit.

kilukru

10-29-2008, 05:53 PM

I have tested the Ur and the main board is rock solid, that's why i first suggested an wr SB instead of adding w to the mainboard. I wanted w in teh side just to have better solution the Echoing trhut to troublesome permanent like tombstalker, humility, etc... and Meddling mage/O-ring seemed perfect.

P.S. I know Et is a great card, it save my skin more than once, but on many occasion it also came as a temporary solution where o-ring would have been a permanent one.

But double colored sb mean screwing with the manabase wich we all agree is one of the strenght of the Ur list and I dont see myself cutting r even tho im comtemplating cutting pyroclasm in a possible rw sideboard for bringing back ET, since recently most of clasm job was counter removal and ET does a better job at it. That leaves only REB as a red splash something like :

MD
-1 Island
-1 volcanic
+2 Tundra
(Maybe) -1 EE/+1 E tutor (it just find so many thing, allow -1 o-ring +1 something else in sb (Pithing, EE, ET?)

3 REB
3 Meddling Mage
3 Crypt
3 O-ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing thruth

1maarten1

10-30-2008, 03:58 AM

Ive been playing the Ur list now for a while with same main as everybody cause its so damn solid but in stead of 2 peedles in the side i run 2 magus of the moon because there are pretty many landstill / loam decks in my meta and they just worked better for me. Im going to an tournament in a week and im taking my dreadstill. (if i get my last dreadnought in =/) I will try to post a short report but im not suspecting a t8 spot since it will be my first tournament ever :). About the white sb; i havent tested it but im so satisfied about the manabase of the Ur list because its so solid against everything. I will test it tho ;)

~Maarten

inside88

10-30-2008, 12:29 PM

Hi,
Finish Fisrt with the list of Roodmistah Ur Dreadstill in local tournament,
No coment it's so powerfull deck !

see you.

MagicTahiti.org LEGACY VII
October 26th
Approx. 16 players

Top 8:
* #01 Ur Dreadstill by Joshua Becherel
* #02 RGbw Zoo by Berry Linaud
* #03 The Rock by Philippe Franchet
* #04 Eva Green by Vini Alix
* #05 GW Berserk Stompy by Yannick Moux
* #06 Cephalid Breakfast by Stéphane Chan
* #07 UWb Control by Thierry Poirine
* #08 UGr MoonThresh by Mike Tchen

Elfrago

10-30-2008, 04:00 PM

Well lets hear your thoughts on these cards:

Relic of Progenitus

IHMO it's a good substitute to Tormod, cantrips and has a nice secondary ability. I'm gonna try a couple in the sb alongside a singleton tormod ( for those times when you can't afford 4U to fetch a relic with trinket).

Snakeform

It's blue, cantrips and it deals with Tombstalker (well, sort of). A possible replacement for Threads?

Rood

10-30-2008, 04:07 PM

As far as Relic goes...it's really solid I'd definetally run it as a 1-of only though not a 2-of (to dodge the Needle of pain.) Sower of Temptation is something that ELD brought to my attention and it seems definetally stronger then alot other creature control we've been running at the moment.

Also glad to see the UR list doing so well ;).

BreathWeapon

11-01-2008, 01:20 PM

What's up with 1xTrickbind over a more flexible card ala Cunning Wish or Merchant Scroll that gives the deck leverage with Echoing Truth etc. and still grabs a Stifle/Trickbind for Dreadnought?

kilukru

11-01-2008, 01:31 PM

Stifle effect are not only for dregnought in this deck, you can actully have a pretty descent mana denial game with wasteland+stifle so having to fetch for one is really too slow to be efficient. And many list actully run 2xtrickbind.

This is the deck that i have seen with the greatest capability to abuse stifle, stifling an oring when your opponent think he got his permanent back is just so sweet! (only hapened once for em so far but god the face my opponent made was worth it!)

MoonDark

11-01-2008, 01:58 PM

kiwi

11-01-2008, 02:01 PM

What about playing fire/ice rather than spell snare?

fire/ice can be good for random metagames with agro decks.

Enigma

11-01-2008, 03:55 PM

I had that reasoning too but I figured that I would rather want to have options against every permanent. That's the first reason why I'm playing Echoing Truth in the Spell snare spot: To have an option against permanent that I didn't succeed to counter.

PM

Rood

11-01-2008, 06:34 PM

Hi there, could you or anyone point me to the Ur version that all people is testing ?

Thanks :)

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
6 [ARE] Island (8)
2 [U] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm

Here ya go =]

What about playing fire/ice rather than spell snare?

fire/ice can be good for random metagames with agro decks.

It's pretty good but not worth a maindecked slot by any means. If your meta is overrun by aggro decks just pack 4x Firesprout in the board and call it a day.

jazzykat

11-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Just to fuel the flames, I went 3-0 in a local tournament on Friday night with Rood UR list.

So, I played a match on MWS today against mono-U landstill, which I was rudely surprised by in the first game. In games 2 and 3 I played more aggressively (using rebs!) and actually REB'ed and early brainstorm which ultimately won me the match along with pithing needling his factory and conclave to get my magi through. It was a risk though, because he had disk in the deck but not letting him set up and beating in with magi for a few turns won me that game. I played uber aggressively against him because I knew the long game was his. Was this the correct way to play or was I a luck sack as he had a fist full of counters and a tapped disk on the board when I went lethal to my stifle and REB, which would have been outclassed by his counters.

My thinking is...Yes.

kilukru

11-02-2008, 08:17 PM

A couple observation, ive been doing some playtesting and looked up some stats about the deck and came to the following conclusion :

All variant of the deck can T8 (ok we all know that)
Variant with W in them tend to stay in the lower half of the T8(4-8)
Variant with G are all around the T8 (1-8)
Variant Ur tend to be in the upper T8 (1-4)

In other word all variant a good, but Ur seem to be the best list at taking out t1 deck and good players, guess consistency and resilience do win the race.

Academy ruin : tested it, everytime i got it it was either too little too late or ,more often, win-more. Generally when i draw it I would have prefered a basic island or a wasteland, so basic or 4th waste are better imo.

Mainboard Relic : wasnnt bad, but wasnnt good either, in an reliable list like the Ur it's not whort it to cut something that work for an average card, so out it go.

General tought : The deck really isnnt sideboard relient for a lot of matchup so you can afford to have a couple card "sleeping" (like rood who said his pyroclam wrent boarded for a long time). Havong those sleeper sideboard card actully can be a benefit, if the meta sudently change you will hav your answer stilll in the board.

Null rod dinnt do nothing and it dinnt do it really well! Ok more serisouly, lots of affinity running around, but where the card shined for me was against combo, stopped mox's, LED, petal is supprinzingly efficient. Too bad it's against one of our "good" matchup, and your still better of with counter top than rod, but rod is 1 card. My conclusion on rod, was : playable in the format, not for this deck.

Playing this deck give the same feeling i would have from spinning a boyscout on a clothline and stoping him with a shovel.

Rood

11-03-2008, 03:16 AM

General tought : The deck really isnnt sideboard relient for a lot of matchup so you can afford to have a couple card "sleeping" (like rood who said his pyroclam wrent boarded for a long time). Havong those sleeper sideboard card actully can be a benefit, if the meta sudently change you will hav your answer stilll in the board.

I know the feeling all too well....I've had sleeping cards in my sideboard just BEGGING to get used, lol. Though it's not recommended to have a sleeper board, it certainly will help when people try to switch things up on you.

I'm considering making these changes to my board
-2 Clasm
+2 Sower of Temptation

jazzykat

11-03-2008, 10:48 AM

@Removing Clasm/Spout: It's definitely meta dependent but I actually play 3 in my board to give me a bone crushing edge vs. all the creature based decks I face.

Also, this is still a DTW? I suppose it is irrelevant but why is that not enough people have 3/4 'noughts?

BKclassic

11-03-2008, 07:29 PM

So I got 12th in Hadley playing Dreadstill:

Round 1: Jaynel w/ Solidarity
I lose in two. :frown: But in my defense, his mana base was solid both games, I never got a chance to stifle his fetchalnds until he already had like 3 or so island out along with a couple fetches already, and at that point it seemed like it would be better to hold Stifle for Brain Freeze. I also never saw Counterbalance or Dreadnought either game, and Tarmogoyf is a woefully slow clock in this match up. I Spell Snare an Impulse early in one of these games in an attempt to slow him down a bit, but I obviously should have saved it for Reset or Remand or something in retrospect.
-3 Goyf, +3 Pyroblast
0-1

Round 2: Justin w/ Gobs
Game 1: This game is long and goes back in forth a bit, He leads off with a vial and I respond with Needle. I get him down two just two Rishadan Ports and a mountain for lands at one point, but eventually he come back and I have to hold out at 1 life for a while with a Goyf in play, but eventually he gets a Ringleader down that I can't counter and attacks with a couple guys for the win.
-4 Standstill, -1 Counterbalance, +3 Hydroblast, +2 Firespout
Game 2: I play defense and resolve both of my Firespouts, and I get a dreadnought down, but it gets killed after only 1 swing, when I have a force in hand but no blue card. I think he also Wierdings away my goyf and swings for the rest of my life not too much later.
0-2

Round 3: Josh w/ Team America
He pretty much gets mana screwed for two games, aided by Stifles and Wastelands of my own. He tries to Snuff Out something of mine game 1 only to realize that he doesn't have a swamp.
1-2

Round 4: Zac w/ UWb Landstill
Game 1: Very long. We play under a still for a long time and we get a to a point were he has Humility out, I have used all my Wastelands with only 1 Factory left in my deck, while he has 1 Factory left in his deck, but also has EE and Academy Ruins going. With no way to win and with only a few cards left in my library I concede.
-2 Standstill, -3 Daze, -1 Nought, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Ancient Grudge
Game 2: Somehow a Nought Fights through the removal.
Game 3: We go to time.

Round 5: Jesse w/ Merfolk
He pretty much gets manascewed for 2 games. Goyf beatdown game 1 and Nought beatdown game 2.
-3 Daze, +3 Pyroblast

Round 6: Jeremy w/ TES
Game 1: I win the die roll and I respond to his Duress by Brainstorming to hide my Countertop. Countertop wins the game.
Game 2: I play a quick Nought, Force his REB on Stifle, and then Force his Burning Wish.

6 Fetch
3 Trop
2 Volc
3 Island
4 Factory
3 Waste

4 B-storm
4 Standstill

2 Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

3 Naught
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

SB
2 Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
2 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt

I brought Ancient Grudge because I thought Affinity might be a thing and the mirror due to Rodney's win, and it really helps against Dragon Stompy and Stax (obviously). I am also a big fan of Spell Snare and it was very useful all day. Krosan Grip maindeck would have only really helped against 1 deck all day, Landstill. Pithing Needle was okay in the MD, but not really necessary, I might make that a 3rd Top, a singleton Grip or a 4th Daze.
I really need to not lose the first two rounds.

Edit- Yeah I think I mixed the last two rounds up.

KillemallCFH

11-03-2008, 11:10 PM

Round 5: Jesse w/ Merfolk
[...]
Round 6: Jeremy w/ TES
I think you mixed up the names. I'm Jeremy and I was the Merfolk player.

Anyways, nice job ending up 12th after starting 0-2.

Enigma

11-04-2008, 04:35 PM

I just add REB's to my UGr list. Next step is to know if I put Threads of Disloyalty (or Sower of Temptation) or not. And if I put Magus or not.

Current SB list:

3x Blue elemental blast
3x Red elemental blast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient Grudge ?
1x Pithing Needle ?
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Firespout

Are those really needed? The other cards are pretty satisfaying.
Grudge: When I faced a Dreadfish deck, I pretty liked it. Against DStompy & Stax, it's just awsome.

Needle: I like it against Goblins, ITF and VoroshStill.

If I put out those two, I would like to add: 2x Sower of tempt, 2x Magus or 1 Crypt.

To help the discussion, I have a large and diversified meta. Good players are playing: Landstill, ITF, Stax, Eva Green, Swan ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, 4c ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Survival Advantage, ANT, Solidarity, BG Rock, Enchantress, Aggro Loam, White Belcher and a couples of non-good goblins.

I never played against Ichorid nor Solidarity so I would also like to know what to counter, what to stifle and which strategy to adopt.

Omega

11-04-2008, 04:49 PM

IF he attempts a turn 3-4 combo (with 3-4 lands)
just counter his high tide. You can always take the risk of letting him start his combo before countering him, but this is a bad idea, especially if he has a very good hand.

If he attempts a combo with 5,6 + lands, you have to counter key spells such as meditate and sometimes REset/turnabout. There is no point in countering High tide wen he has so many lands. You just have to see how many cards he has in hand, how many mana is floating.
Small cantrip, such as brainstorm, impulse and other should never be countered. Unless if he has 0 card in hand.

Stifle : Stifle every fetchlands you can to slow him down or to shut him off (especially if he has a bad hand). Usually, when he comboes out, there are no way you can stop him with a single stifle. Do not hesitate to play agressive. You have to put solidarity on clock, or else he will just wait and have the perfect hand and perfect lands to beat you

BKclassic

11-05-2008, 11:58 AM

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill? One of the things that has always bothered me is that unless you have Counterbalance down, you have to Force of Will cards like Snuff Out and Swords to Plowshares, which really hurts when you have to 2 for 1 yourself just to get Dreadnought into play. I was thinking I would play it either in the Spell Snare/Krosan Grip slot or (more likely) put it in the sideboard REB slot. I think this would be especially good in builds with Spell Snare so that against Landstill and ITF you have Spell Snare as a 1 casting cost answer to Counterbalance, Counterspell or possibly Standstill and Negate to answer removal. I think it would also be great to have 3 extra answers in the board to Orim's Chant for the combo match.

I would than probably cut red from the deck for a more solid mana base which would in theory compensate a bit for the lack of Firespout against Aggro.

So I am going to test this on MWS and get back to y'all.

TheRock

11-05-2008, 12:50 PM

Also, this is still a DTW? I suppose it is irrelevant but why is that not enough people have 3/4 'noughts?

The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

BKclassic

11-05-2008, 01:22 PM

The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

Hmm, I think that early is the easiest time to resolve Counterbalance because you can fight it through with Daze (You are running 3-4, right?). Also, I play 3 colors with 21 lands and only have to mull to 6 occasionally in real life, but 22 lands should be fine if this isn't working out for you.

2 Tops is standard for any list with Trinket Mage, which is pretty standard.

Xero_2285

11-05-2008, 02:39 PM

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill?

No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

BKclassic

11-05-2008, 03:05 PM

No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought. I suppose Dark Confidant and to a much lesser extent Argothian Echantress are exceptions to this idea, but that is why I run Spell Snare. Honestly, this is the most plausible way to deal with Tombstalker that I have thought of so far, other than dedicating SB slots to Wallop, which seems ridiculous.

Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

Xero_2285

11-05-2008, 03:29 PM

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

True but, I guess what I should have said was, aren't you hindering yourself limiting what you can counter with a noncreature counterspell? Sure you want to hit their targeting threats which Mana Leak and Rune Snag do while at the same time leaving it to where you can counter creatures as well for the same CMC as negate. I agree with what your saying but I don't think Negate is the best option for what your trying to do.

The_Red_Panda

11-05-2008, 04:09 PM

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

This is not always true. While the dreadnought is huge, and often wins creature wars on it's own, it does not guarantee wins all by itself. There have been multiple times in tournament play where I was staring down an aggro horde, and due to my already damaged lifetotal, the dreadnought alone wasn't going to win it. In these cases, or in cases where the dreadnought will barely squeak out the damage race win, it's important to be able to counter creatures.

Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

I have found the opposite. After drawing a boatload of cards off of multiple standstill turns and the standstill itself, Resolving Dreadnought and protecting it for one turn really hasn't been that bad for me. The entire dreadnought combo costs a measly 2 mana, and with the leftovers I've been able to hardcast Forces and so on to keep the 'Nought on the table. Also, in these cases it often comes up that I'm able to resolve nought and a tarmo, or a pair of tarmos, and they can only deal with one.

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.

I so want to test wallop right now. No joke.

kiwi

11-05-2008, 04:45 PM

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

BKclassic

11-05-2008, 04:47 PM

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.

This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

Rood

11-05-2008, 06:21 PM

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

Only board in two, it's not always going to be TOO helpful but it should hurt them a bit (Goyf and Crusher don't care about it sadly).

@Negate: It's okay but mainly moreso against Landstill and ITF would it be REALLy good. It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

frogboy

11-05-2008, 07:07 PM

It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

Counterbalance?

Enigma

11-05-2008, 07:54 PM

It's hard to destroy a Counterbalance with a 1cc spell...

@Negate: I find it could actually be better than REB most of the time... Mmh, gotta try it.

EDIT: The only MU REB is better than Negate would probably be CounterSlivers and Epic Painter. The MU Negate is better than REB: Landstill, ITF and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (do I really side REB against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?).

EDIT#2: Pretty sure I like and will adopt it in the REB spot.

EDIT#3: I was testing it against myself and just kept my REB as "false Negate" and was thinking its cc was 1... but just realized it was 2cc so I doubt again... lol

PM

Xero_2285

11-06-2008, 02:46 AM

This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

OK, but I really don't feel like you have justified as of to why Negate is better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag. Both have the same CMC but Leak and Snag can counter both Creature AND Non-Creature spells. All 3 being the same CMC you have more options with Leak and Snag than you do with Negate. I don't see anyone SB'ing Tormod's Crypt for a Rune Snag and having 3 mana open to shit towards Mana Leak is very hard for some decks and if they do they probably can't play anything else that turn (which is alright for me), because if the payed the 3 they sure as hell can't pay 1 for Daze. Leak or Snag gives you more options rather than just non-creature spells for same CMC. I'm seriously wondering, how is Negate better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag? :confused:

I just placed 2nd out of 7 under ANT and above MonoRedBurn with the following list.

Creatures: (10)
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trinket Mage

Spells: (30)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
3x Counterbalance
4x Standstill
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives

Lands: (20)
4x Mishra's Factory
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Wasteland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island

SB: (15)
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyroclasm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Chill

Round 1: Solidarity, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, 3rd turn Nought/Trickbind, he scooped.
Game 2: Was a little longer. I countered some early key spells that didn't allow him to start searching and he fell to a Nought and Goyf.

Round 2: Chord of Calling Deck, Game 1: He started with little beaters and I resolved Counter/Top 2nd turn, he was done after that. Drew into Nought/Stifle and he scooped.
Game 2: Was even shorter, he mulled to 5 and I resolved Nought/Stifle 2nd turn, he scooped.

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

URABAHN

11-06-2008, 08:40 AM

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

J.V.

11-06-2008, 11:19 AM

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

jazzykat

11-06-2008, 11:51 AM

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

Xero_2285

11-06-2008, 04:02 PM

I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

Well I have been consistently Top 4ing in the last month or so now, I just haven't been sharing my rankings with others until I started to get a hang of the deck more. 4 weeks ago took 1st of 6, 3 weeks ago took 3rd of 21 I believe, 2 weeks ago took 4th of 7 with a Ur list, are just a few I can remember. I'm going to keep the deck just like it is for a while, I really like how it's starting to work out for me.

Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

Thanks, good to be here. Is that you Valentine? This site seems to know a little more than most other sites. Damn Goyf, the turn I dropped the Goyf I had the option of dropping Top instead and drawing a FOW with it instead, would have been the better play but I really wanted to start beating his face.

Well the main reason is because I hate investing into standard so I don't have any but also the CMC is 2 which is just easier to play. I probably should pick up 2-3 of them though.

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

Fetch for the Tropical Island 2nd turn. The reason I'm only running 1 green and 1 red source is because I only have 1 of each (I'd be more than happy to trade someone for 1 of each). Which is also the reason I have 1x Crucible in the SB. If I come across Wasteland's and what not I'll have crucible to back me up until I can get my other duels. Didn't really like the Ur list I tried it out, it was consistent, land base was great, I just don't think it was for me. It may not look like it but a lot more thought was put into this build than just adding Goyf's and Grip in the SB. The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2. So I'm not really having issues losing, I just think I made some wrong decisions against those decks (should have Stifled fetches but chose not to so I can drop Nought on 2nd, things like that).

Rood

11-06-2008, 04:30 PM

The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2.

Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

Xero_2285

11-06-2008, 04:49 PM

Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

It's funny you say that about Solid, that's exactly what I did with the UGr list and stomped him 2-0. I was thinking, should I take it down to 3x Goyf MB and up my Wasteland 1? Not only because of these MU's but I think 4 might be too many, and with the added Delta I have no problems getting color screwed anymore so could I afford to have the extra Wasteland? I just hate seeing Factory and Wasteland in my opening hand with no U sources.

Rood

11-06-2008, 04:55 PM

It's funny you say that about Solid, that's exactly what I did with the UGr list and stomped him 2-0. I was thinking, should I take it down to 3x Goyf MB and up my Wasteland 1? Not only because of these MU's but I think 4 might be too many, and with the added Delta I have no problems getting color screwed anymore so could I afford to have the extra Wasteland? I just hate seeing Factory and Wasteland in my opening hand with no U sources.

-1 Goyf
+1 Wasteland seems to be your best option, yes.

Also, add one more Needle to your sideboard and one more Crypt/Relic.

whienot

11-07-2008, 06:45 PM

I split top 4 at a 22 player tourny with the Uwr variant.

(22 players, Supergames in Alpharetta, GA)

It's the standard Ur list -3 Spell Snare, -1 Wasteland (Non basics aren't too heavy in my meta)

+3 Stp, +1 O. Ring

s/b
3 REB
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge looked like a no show)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring

Round 1: David Meyer - Ugrb Trinket Control
Great guy, and I absolutely loved his deck. Trinkets, Capsule, shackels, EE, A. Ruins,
Goyfs, Counters.

G1: An early CB +Top, followed by Factory + Dreadnought win this one for me.

G2: Long Match. My early CB meets REB. Dreadnought gets EE'd. He gets Academy ruins + Explosives. I land a Meddling Mage on EE, then his Trinket Mage finds Executioner's Capsule....yikes. He lands two Tarmogoys.Dreadnought 2 comes out (I have a stifle in hand for the capsule), but out comes Sower of Temptation.... G3..

G3: I keep a hand of Factory x2, Stifle, Dreadnought, Standstill, Daze, FOW. Drop a Factory, pass. e plays island, top, go. I rip Volcanic Island like a champ. Nought + Stifle goes unanswered.

Round 2: Andy Probasco (Brassman on TMD) - Next Level Blue ?
Andy usually plays his painter list, but I saw no painters/grindstones. Goyfs, CB/Top, Shackles, Counters, & Cantrips. Andy also wins the best altered art/deck award. He does his own extended art on CB and Trinket Mage, and they are quite sexy.

G1: Waste + Stifle keep him out of the game, while Factory goes for the throat. His ponders find nothing relevant.

G2: Duress takes my Brainstorm. He Spell Snares my Standstill. I drop a nought, with counter backup. Win.

Round 3: Thor - Goyf Sligh
It's always fun to play against Thor. I just like his RAWR, I win mentality.

G1: Turn 1 Lavamancer, Turn 2 Lavamancer, and Keldon Marauders + Goyf came out before Dreadnough ruins his day.

G2: Turn 1 FoD, Turn 2 FoD. I Pyroclasm (He didn't see red game 1). That buys enough time to drop a nought.

Round 4: Robbie - Rw Goblins
Great player. He always makes smart, concise plays.

G1: I Force his T1 Lackey. Play Island. He plays a second Lackey. Boo. I can't put on enough pressure, but I did counter a SGC by flipping a Force to Counterbalance.

G2: Play Island. He plays a Lackey, I play Factory. He plays port. I play second Factory. I drop a nought and win.

G3: I end up gaining 24 life from 2 Stp'd Dreadnoughts... Then get attacked for 79.
(Double Pile driver, SGC, 3 tokens, 2 Lackey, Warchief, Pyromancer) Legendary.

3-1

Top 8

Jt - Belcher

G1: Stifle his Empty the Warrens. Stifle a Dreadnought, EE his tokens for kicks.

G2: Echoing Truth his Goblins. Needle on BelchMeddling Mage on Burning Wish, Pithing er.
Yeah, this isn't a good match for combo, and for some reason I always draw 4 stifles when up against combo.

Top 4 Split.

O. Ring wasn't cast one.

I'll be trying Divert in the SB sometime in the future. In theory, it is really strong, being good against counters/Burn/Hymn/Thoughtseize/Swords. It's a little easier to cast than REB and makes Daze marginally better in the mid game.

I'm also considering Dismantling Blow for the side. It dodges Counterbalance, and occaisionally draws cards. But, I'm not convinced it would be better than O. Ring.

Mega props to Zack Wilson for trading me Mana Drains.

godryk

11-09-2008, 01:01 PM

I finished 3-3 (last round conceded to a friend) in a 46-man tournament. I'm very disappointed as I began with a good 3-0 start and then start loosing like a retard, sometimes due to me keeping hands I shouldn't have, sometimes due to my lack of sideboarding skill. It was my first time with the deck in a real tournament.

I beat UGw Threshold (2-0), Faerie Stompy (2-1) and ANT (1-0), and the proceeded to loose 2-0 againt UGr Moon Threshold (0-2, keeping hands I should't have really helped), Not-Quite Survival (0-2, first turn Confidant followed by shit and combined with low threat hands from my part on both games) and then I tried to get the only top 8 slot for 12 point players that was available as the other seven top 8 players were already decided. I played a looong game against UGW Threshold and after serious stalling I finally loose. I give the second game to the guy hoping that one of us could really get into the top8. (And he did)

I'm aware of my lack of skill with the deck as I hadn't tested the Threshold matchup as much as I should (yes, you can kill me). Fearing ANT the meta turned aggrocontrol-heavy but there were also a huge portion of aggro decks (Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Burn), even though I didn't faced any.

I'm considering trying another splashes... and of course I need to do some more testing. Today I have experienced the best and the worst that Dreadstill can offer.

:smile:

jazzykat

11-10-2008, 12:30 AM

FWIW: I went 5-0 in another local tournament with the UR version against non-tier decks. This deck may just be the best deck in the format right now. The mana base is sooooooooooooooooooo consistent it tends to remove just about any chance of mana screw and then with fetches it quickly boils down to threats.

Atog

11-11-2008, 10:02 AM

Have anyone tried Threads of Disloyalty? That would be good against other dreadnoughts, tarmogoyfs and confidant at least. Any thoughts?

Mayk0l

11-11-2008, 10:56 AM

What would you remove for it? To me, it seems like the list is too tight to include it. It would also weaken Counterbalance seeing the Trinket Mage is already in this deck.

Atog

11-11-2008, 11:09 AM

What would you remove for it? To me, it seems like the list is too tight to include it. It would also weaken Counterbalance seeing the Trinket Mage is already in this deck.

Hmm, it depends what colors you play, but i think something like this:

3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Tormod's crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth

bigbear102

11-12-2008, 12:36 AM

Atog

11-12-2008, 02:16 AM

The Thresh matchup is where you would most want Threads I would think, and that is one of the matchups that will board in Grip, so you would want more 3 drops in the deck to have a better chance at stoping Grip. Against Survival it also stops Harmonic Sliver.

Threads is also good against Thresh BECAUSE it costs 3 and gets around their Counterbalance. Seems decent to me. Especially in Ur because you don't have your own goyfs.

Yep. I do play ur-version so i'm not able to play grips :) Just thinking, do we need Krosan Grip anyways? Ok, it's split second so it's hard to counter except counterbalance and that won't always even hit. Other what can cause problem we can survive by blasts (Back To Basics, Blood Moon, Counterbalance). Those won't even always be such of big problem cause number of basics we run. Needles and Chalices we get rid of by EE. Angelstax have some nasty artifacts what we want get rid of soon as possible but there we have echoing truth and counters. These thoughts isn't anything new maybe, but just want some reasons why to play Krosan Grip over ur-version.