[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist [Archive] - Page 7

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Rood

08-12-2009, 05:10 AM

Muppet86

08-12-2009, 05:33 AM

Here in Holland the meta is also dominated by decks that are not good for dreadstill. Merfolk, landstill, the rock and Zoo are frequently played.

Since I love this deck and still think it's one of the most powerful decks around I to wanted to change the deck.

The change of going at a tempotresh list does not suit me. It makes your combo match-up worse, and protecting your dreadnought will become more difficult. Counter/top is a brilliant combination and it helps protect your own dreadnought and goyf.

Futhermore, the tempo list makes match-up that are in your favour equal, like NLU and Zoo. Off course you get the sweaper Firespout main, but still, I don;t like this tempo list.

I am currently testing this list:

4x goyf
3x dreadnought
2x trinket mage

2x daze
2x spell snare
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
4x stifle
1x trickbind

3x standstill
3x counterbalance
3x top
2x EE

3x volcanic
2x tropical
4x island
3x wasteland
3x mishra's factory
3x delta
3x strand

SB
3x Lighting bolt
1x needle
3x relic
2x krosan grip
3x firespout
2x Pyroblast
1x REB

I've got two open spaces in the mainlist;

My choices for the open spot are:
shackels
lightning bolt main (have to change the sb then off course)
vendellion clique

Currently i'm running the clique. It has been a huge help against landstill and merfolk during testing. Taking the annoying Elspeth/Moat/LOA is helpfull. And it's a 3/1 flying bolt, so what do you guy's think?

Tangle.Wire

08-12-2009, 06:11 AM

Standstill actually is a tempo oriented card most of the time. Just because we cut CB/Top doesn't mean the deck still can't win on the back of SS. It's really the only reason Dreadnought is even viable...to regain lost card advantage. A lot of decks most of the time that can't operate under it will pop it most of the time if not their next turn the turn after to play something. I disagree though about your assessment of F/I. The Fire option is mainly the only thing you're going to use with it most of the time why not just run an entire board sweeper maindeck over it. Also F/I doesn't kill Kird Ape, Nacatl, or any 2 lord creatures of any Tribe deck in play. Firespout is rarely dead as most of the time you can always trade it to kill a Dark Confidant or something. I agree on your REB assessment that the card is game breaking. Maybe I'll just cut the BEBs for them and -1 Relic for

+4 REB

Cutting the Standstill was just a simple thought, i didnt want to say that its bad, of course dropping it after playing nought/goofy its awesome, maybe i played tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh to long :D

For Fire//Ice i am not sure if u really tried it, my first thoughts when i played them where the same, splitting 2 damage is ok but why tapping a permanent? When i played it i have to say i used a 50/60 Ice and Fire, Ice is great eot to tap out the opponent or otherwise after wasteland just keeping the opponent stuck with a tapped land in the upkeep but together with 4 lightning bolts in the maindeck as tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh does u get a very powerfull combat suite, if we got both on hand we can do up to 5 damage (stalker) for 3 mana other than playing firespout+cc1 or cc2. Also tapping an opponents creature while beating with goofy is very helpfull to keep tempo or just protect ourself from a big opponent creature for one turn. At least the cantrip of ice and the possibility of pitching it into FoW are enough to me setting it over firespout in the maindeck. Maybe you give em a try for 2-3 games to get a feeling how often it can be used on very different situations.

For the Cards like Kird Ape etc which are not targeted by Fire you can delay on the Lightning Bolts and firespouts post board.

I also think the manabase for a tempo oriented version should be on 20 lands.

pippo84

08-12-2009, 11:46 AM

I like Rood's list, but I would cut 3 Firespout MD for 1 Lightning Bolt and 2 Fire/Ice.
Even though I like the list I'm not sure it's the right way to go..
This has always been a control deck and cutting control elements is not good.
Also when you land a full Counterbalance/Top most likely you win. Is it the same with some burn spells? Not sure..

Muradin

08-12-2009, 01:27 PM

Here in Holland the meta is also dominated by decks that are not good for dreadstill. Merfolk, landstill, the rock and Zoo are frequently played.

Due to my testing Merfolk is even preboard and favorable for Dreadstill postboard. Zoo can cause problems but most builds have problems handling Dreadnought and a quite light manabase that succumbs to Wasteland/Stifle.

Landstill depends on their build whether it is even or slightly unfavorable but 4 Color builds get slaughtered by Blood Moon from the sideboard in my Ur build. Furthermore Landstill doesn't see much play any more, at least no in bigger tournaments. This might however be different in your local metagame and you could add some Crucible of Worlds to your sideboard as they totally destroy Landstill.

The Rock is what I consider this deck's worst matchups. However I am still 3 - 0 in real life tournament play against that deck but my testing proves that it is definitely unfavorable. Relic of Progenitus and abusing standstill proved to be very strong against The Rock and some builds also had problems with Blood Moon or recurring Wastelands. For decks like The Rock, Truffle Shuffle, Eva Green, ... you might have a look at Kira Great Glass Spinner and Sower of Temptation as these decks tend to have serious problems at handling this combination of cards. This is however only a metagame adjustment I'd only take in case those decks are really commonly played in your metagame.

Tangle.Wire

08-14-2009, 04:06 AM

I got my factories back yesterday so i'll be able to play the typical Dreadstill next sunday on a ~80 man/woman tournament, trying out this build:

3 Dreadnought
4 Goofy
2 Trinket Mage

3 D. Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Snare
1 engineered explosives

3 mishras factory
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 volcanic island
3 wasteland
4 tropical island
1 island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firespout
3 Krosan grip
2 tormods crypt

I dont feel sure about playing 3 or 4 Standstills also 3 or 4 Factory, i think 4 factory + 3 wasteland gives me to much colorless while 3 standstill should be enough aslong i play brainstorms and tops.

I didnt want to cut fire//ice on 2 so i moved 1 spell snare to the sideboard but i dont know if the otherwise would work better. :rolleyes:

keys

08-14-2009, 12:40 PM

You think Spell Snare is better than Daze in this deck? I like Daze because it can help secure your turn two play (CB, SS, Nought/Stifle, Goyf, etc.). Though, Spell Snare is better at countering your opponents T2 play. Also, I just feel like I would rather up the CB count to 4 rather than play more Snares, since they share similar roles but CB is just so much more broken.

Shimi

08-14-2009, 09:58 PM

I really don't like the idea of cutting CBTop , you must protect the nought and there is no better defence than CBTop , StP , Demonblades , Edict and all this shit ruin our plan.And if you are afraid of Grip you can always get a Goyf and down CBTop and the Grip will go for CB for sure..
About the idea of cutting standstill for lightningbolts/FireIces I may improve alot of matchs but there is just some matchups which i thought it is the only way to win.

Last weekend playing UGr version (with 3 noughts and main pitting) i just lost to Goblins(bad luck) and It's the fear or some Team America + loan ( loan waste + volrath's won the 2 games).

FoolofaTook

08-14-2009, 10:34 PM

Dreadstill is essentially a series of highly disruptive synergies that work in combination to overwhelm the opponent in the early midgame. Stifle/Wasteland, Stifle/Nought, CounterTop, Standstill/Mishra's Factory, Trinket Mage/Toolkit, and 10-11 counterspells to back it all up. If you remove or significantly lessen any part of those synergies you really damage the basic function of the deck, which is to deflect/disrupt and then destroy quickly.

The 3 color build adds in the most obvious card to splash for in the meta in Tarmogoyf and so they avoid weakening the deck as they de-emphasize slightly a couple of the synergies by playing only 3 Noughts and 2 Trinket Mages.

Any other really significant removal is going to weaken the deck in my opinion. For all of the experimenting that the rest of the blue meta is doing with Planeswalkers and slower control this is still the most fundamentally sound deck in terms of going into an unknown meta and just dominating it. It doesn't get played enough for everybody to realize the fact, but this is the best overall archetype in Legacy right now.

keys

08-14-2009, 10:40 PM

Yeah I don't follow all this conjecture of removing CBTop to become more like Tempo Thresh. Tempo Thresh doesn't play Nought because it likes to stifle lands, it doesn't like the -1 CA, and because it's hard to protect him from removal without CB. Mongoose is actually a really solid threat in that deck and shouldn't be replaced with Nought.

Anyway, I agree that the ubiquity of Pridemage and Grip is a problem for this deck. But, like I said, there are multiple ways to stop Pridemage, such as burn (2-3 spells is good) and/or counters. If there is such a flood of Grip then I say maybe this isn't the correct metagame choice...

That's all.

FoolofaTook

08-15-2009, 01:41 AM

Pridemage is an issue, however a deck packing 5 stifle effects shouldn't be losing Counterbalance to it. The stiflenought plan is what gets upset a bit and that's what needs to be addressed.

Basically there are about 2 slots in the deck that are available to swing the deck around to being less vulnerable to pridemage, those being the 11th counter (either Daze 4 or Spell Snare 3) and the 4th Standstill.

Packing 2 Lightning Bolts in those slots looks good on paper. You can use the extra removal not only on pridemage, but on dark confidant, meddling mage, goblin lackey and several other problematic small creatures. It also gives the deck an option to do instant damage to the opponent as a finisher occasionally.

I think however that playing 2 Firespout main deck is stronger, because it extends the reach of the solution to swarms, which can be problematic. It really strengthens the matchup against Merfolk, which is a tough opponent at the moment. Firespout also handles pridemage and it handles more than one if the opponent has been dropping them pre-emptively and planning to use them to turbocharge goyf when he lands.

Krosan Grip really isn't much more of a problem than it used to be. I think it might be less overall because a lot of decks that might have packed a grip or 2 main deck are now tuning them out as part of the adjustment to get 3 or 4 pridemages in. Basically Goyf Sligh is the problem and that's not a hard matchup unless you keep a bad hand or get a bad draw after the first 7.

Tangle.Wire

08-17-2009, 05:08 AM

So anyway if we add 2-3 Burn spells for those open Slots, wouldnt fire//ice be more potential for a maindeck? I think 2 damage is enought for the really hard threats you can burn with both spells but ice got some additional issues.

By the way, how good is sower of temptation at all? i know its good cause cc4 wont be counterbalanced and it steals any creature imidiatly and it catches every spot removal but nearly every Baseruption, Dreadstill or Countertop lists play them at least 2x in the sideboard over threads of disloyality or control magic.

The_Red_Panda

08-17-2009, 03:36 PM

it steals any creature imidiatly and it catches every spot removal

These two things are actually really bad together. I played 3 sower in my sideboard at Worlds and one of the pre-lims, and I can tell you for a fact that catching creature removal and losing what should be a 3-for-1 is a huge blow. After both tournaments I was left wishing they had been Control Magics, and because the sowers caught removal and subsequently returned the creature to it's owner, I lost several games. I do, however, think that there needs to be some sort of Control Magic/Sower action in the sideboard, as it is currently my only answer to Tombstalker besides "Race with Nought", which works less often than expected.

Basically there are about 2 slots in the deck that are available to swing the deck around to being less vulnerable to pridemage, those being the 11th counter (either Daze 4 or Spell Snare 3) and the 4th Standstill.

Between differing color splashes and the lack/inclusion of trinket mage, I find this statement to be wrong.

keys

08-17-2009, 05:14 PM

I think however that playing 2 Firespout main deck is stronger, because it extends the reach of the solution to swarms, which can be problematic. It really strengthens the matchup against Merfolk, which is a tough opponent at the moment. Firespout also handles pridemage and it handles more than one if the opponent has been dropping them pre-emptively and planning to use them to turbocharge goyf when he lands.

Firespout isn't really fast enough to deal with the problem turn 1/2 plays like Lacky, Nacatl, Confidant, and Pridemage. Bolt and Fire//Ice are both much more efficient and versatile. Firespout can't hit Jace or a Mutavault, either.

I'm not saying Firespout isn't amazing in its own right, though.

After both tournaments I was left wishing they had been Control Magics, and because the sowers caught removal and subsequently returned the creature to it's owner, I lost several games.

Well with Zoo playing 4 Pridemage and 3-4 Grip, I don't think Control Magic would be all that much safer. Sower is always going to be a swingy card. As always, the trick is protecting it, and the deck has plenty of defensive spells.

I'd also like to add that you can run Divert in the SB instead of Hydroblast like I do if you want even better protection against removal. I started playing it instead of blasts in Team America and it was consistently impressive. Honestly I don't know why this card isn't played more often. It serves a lot of the same purposes as Hydroblast, plus so many others, in addition to being a likely 2-for-1. Diverting a Path to Exile or Snuff Out is just brutal.

My SB:
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Divert
3 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt

The_Red_Panda

08-18-2009, 01:59 AM

Well with Zoo playing 4 Pridemage and 3-4 Grip, I don't think Control Magic would be all that much safer. Sower is always going to be a swingy card. As always, the trick is protecting it, and the deck has plenty of defensive spells.

Yes, Grip and Pridemage and possibly Oblivion Ring, depending on the matchup. As opposed to Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Firespout, Fire//Ice, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Pyroclasm, Humility, Wrath of God, Stifle, Rift Bolt, Gempalm Incinerator, ect. Despite the fact that there's plenty of enchantment hate running around, there is still MUCH more creature hate. I still stand that Control Magic would be a better use of the slot for the meta we had at worlds.

Tangle.Wire

08-18-2009, 03:35 AM

So back to the generally sideboarding plan, is there something we could board against black? as it is a common splash color for confi,stalker,discard but also of played in mono decklists so why dont we add 1-2 slots for black? My current sideboard looks like this:

2 Sower of temptation (not sure)
2 Krosan grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormods crypt
2 submerge (are there better slots?)
2 firespout
2 x Empty for now x

-> I run 1 firespout on the maindeck also an explosives but i am not sure if i should board 3 grip or either an additional explosives from the sideboard.

I also feel like something against Plainswalkers will be needed a lot of people on my meta play em anyway and i think Ultimate Walker will get a popular deck at least for the next 2-3 weeks since its "new"

keys

08-18-2009, 03:45 AM

Yes, Grip and Pridemage and possibly Oblivion Ring, depending on the matchup. As opposed to Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Firespout, Fire//Ice, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Pyroclasm, Humility, Wrath of God, Stifle, Rift Bolt, Gempalm Incinerator, ect. Despite the fact that there's plenty of enchantment hate running around, there is still MUCH more creature hate. I still stand that Control Magic would be a better use of the slot for the meta we had at worlds.

Ok... I wasn't implying that enchantment removal gets more play than creature removal, I was merely stating that Control Magic is sometimes just as fragile as Sower in the matchup it is most often used in. You didn't have to list every creature removal spell in the format. But since you made the effort, let me remind you that half of those cards are played in decks that you would never SB Sower in against, and a few more are metagame/SB cards that would never see play past game 1, nor be brought in game 2. That leaves Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Snuff Out (don't forget) and maybe Swords. The only deck that plays more than 4 of those is Zoo.

So back to the generally sideboarding plan, is there something we could board against black? as it is a common splash color for confi,stalker,discard but also of played in mono decklists so why dont we add 1-2 slots for black?

Divert is pretty ballsy versus black disruption.

Submerge is probably your best bet against Stalker, besides Sower and of course FoW, so you can leave those in.

Tangle.Wire

08-18-2009, 03:50 AM

Ok... I wasn't implying that enchantment removal gets more play than creature removal, I was merely stating that Control Magic is sometimes just as fragile as Sower in the matchups it is often used in. You didn't have to go ahead and list every creature removal spell in the format. But now that you have, let me remind you that a third of those cards are played in decks that you would never SB Sower in against, and another third of those are SB cards that would never be played past game 1, nor brought in game 2.

I agree with keys, as the opponent don't really wants to play enchantment threats on our control magic as we also play counterbalance, i think spot removal for creatures is played on nearly every non-combo deck and nearly each creature spot removal targets sower.

The_Red_Panda

08-18-2009, 05:13 AM

That leaves Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Snuff Out (don't forget) and maybe Swords. The only deck that plays more than 4 of those is Zoo.

I'm assuming you're encompassing Goyf Sligh into "Zoo", but you should still consider Canadian thresh, where you're likely going to have 3-4 Fire//Ice, 3-4 Bolts, and Stifle. That's plenty of good reasons to not be putting creatures with asses less than 4 and swingy, stifleable abilities on the table.

And even if we assume that those removal spells are the only ones pointed at sower ever, when are you bringing sower in? The only matchups where I want sower are the ones that are running 4+ cards worth of creature removal. I mean, I basically bring sower in against TA, Zoo, Thresh, and the occasional mirror match. Of those four, Thresh and Zoo are both packing more Creature removal than Enchantment hate, and see play more often than the other two options. TA has a fairly fragile manabase, which is a lot easier to keep off of Kgrip than it is to keep off of Snuff out, and the mirror is infrequent enough that I don't think the additional 2 power is going to make up for the advantage in all those other matchups.

Lets say Zoo boards in four Krosan Grips. Those grips are serving triple duty alongside Pridemages, as they have to target Noughts, CB and Control Magic. That's not considering that Grip often gets pointed at tops when there's no counterbalance around, or fires at EE. The ratio of "cards this targets" to "number of things targeting" is rather high for Grip, and fairly low for any of the bolts or Fire//Ice, as they're only ever going to be pointed at your dome, or your Sower.

Sorry if that came off rough, but I'm a bit tired as of late. If you still disagree we can just drop it, but after testing and playing in tournaments every day for about a week straight, I can say safely that my Sowers are going somewhere else.

I agree with keys, as the opponent don't really wants to play enchantment threats on our control magic as we also play counterbalance, i think spot removal for creatures is played on nearly every non-combo deck and nearly each creature spot removal targets sower.

This sounds more like an argument for Control Magic than for Sower. Is it supposed to be read as such, or am I missing your point?

Tangle.Wire

08-18-2009, 05:21 AM

I'm assuming you're encompassing Goyf Sligh into "Zoo", but you should still consider Canadian thresh, where you're likely going to have 3-4 Fire//Ice, 3-4 Bolts, and Stifle. That's plenty of good reasons to not be putting creatures with asses less than 4 and swingy, stifleable abilities on the table.

And even if we assume that those removal spells are the only ones pointed at sower ever, when are you bringing sower in? The only matchups where I want sower are the ones that are running 4+ cards worth of creature removal. I mean, I basically bring sower in against TA, Zoo, Thresh, and the occasional mirror match. Of those four, Thresh and Zoo are both packing more Creature removal than Enchantment hate, and see play more often than the other two options. TA has a fairly fragile manabase, which is a lot easier to keep off of Kgrip than it is to keep off of Snuff out, and the mirror is infrequent enough that I don't think the additional 2 power is going to make up for the advantage in all those other matchups.

Lets say Zoo boards in four Krosan Grips. Those grips are serving triple duty alongside Pridemages, as they have to target Noughts, CB and Control Magic. That's not considering that Grip often gets pointed at tops when there's no counterbalance around, or fires at EE. The ratio of "cards this targets" to "number of things targeting" is rather high for Grip, and fairly low for any of the bolts or Fire//Ice, as they're only ever going to be pointed at your dome, or your Sower.

Sorry if that came off rough, but I'm a bit tired as of late. If you still disagree we can just drop it, but after testing and playing in tournaments every day for about a week straight, I can say safely that my Sowers are going somewhere else.

This sounds more like an argument for Control Magic than for Sower. Is it supposed to be read as such, or am I missing your point?

^^ you read correct, control magic > sower imo, but i am not sure if i should just leave those slots to shackles, threads or just submerges.

pippo84

08-18-2009, 10:18 AM

I have a question: why is no one playing the black splash version anymore? It had boom for a small period and after it ended for everyone.
Bob was quite good and black gave interesting SB options..

Tangle.Wire

08-18-2009, 10:35 AM

I have a question: why is no one playing the black splash version anymore? It had boom for a small period and after it ended for everyone.
Bob was quite good and black gave interesting SB options..

I think its cause of the tribal/aggro bullshitdecks which are kinda to agressive for decks with confidants etc. At least the UGW or UGR lists are much more consitand than the black build even on the sideboard.

If u play black anyway i would play team america or eva green but both don't need to run the stifle/nought combo at all :)

pippo84

08-18-2009, 11:40 AM

Yeah, probably you are right. it's full of merfolk these days.
Btw I play UGR, triesd the UGW, but i don't know why but with red it just seems better.. I still have to try Lightning Bolts in the SB as I see many are doing..

keys

08-18-2009, 12:57 PM

^^ you read correct, control magic > sower imo, but i am not sure if i should just leave those slots to shackles, threads or just submerges.

Really? Sower is better than Control Magic, because it ends the game faster (thereby reducing the likelihood that your opponent will draw an answer).

Threads is also better than Control Magic.

J.V.

08-18-2009, 01:16 PM

Really? Sower is better than Control Magic, because it ends the game faster (thereby reducing the likelihood that your opponent will draw an answer).

Threads is also better than Control Magic.

Sower is better than both Threads and Control Magic, but the reason is not because it ends the game quicker, it is because Sower doesn't die to the same hate that is already coming in for dreadnought, IE Grip, Ancient Grudge, etc, etc.

keys

08-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Sower is better than both Threads and Control Magic, but the reason is not because it ends the game quicker, it is because Sower doesn't die to the same hate that is already coming in for dreadnought, IE Grip, Ancient Grudge, etc, etc.

Well, to be fair, Grudge can't destroy Control Magic, but it sounds like we're on the same page. Maybe you mean Shackles.

Grip and Pridemage will make appearances game 2, if not game 1, in enough matchups that Control Magic will not always be safer than Sower. The argument that artifact/enchantment removal spells will be used up on CB/Top and Nought isn't really relevant, since the same can be said of creature removal on Goyf and Nought.

If Sower didn't give me a 2/2 flying body, then obviously, I'd play Threads.

Anyway, I'd like to change the topic. Has anyone else played with Divert? It's more well-rounded than Hydroblast. It's fantastic against Eva Green/The Rock/TES as well as Zoo/Sligh/Burn.

The_Red_Panda

08-18-2009, 03:45 PM

Before we leave this topic entirely, it should be pointed out that Threads cant take Tombstalker or Thoctar, or Hippies, or a bunch of other creatures. Yes, costing one less is really cool, and it still hits the majority of the format. The inability to hit tombstalker is relevant, and it's not like we haven't been playing Control magic effects at that casting cost this entire time (Sower).

The argument that artifact/enchantment removal spells will be used up on CB/Top and Nought isn't really relevant, since the same can be said of creature removal on Goyf and Nought.

Bolts cant usually kill Dreadnoughts or Goyfs, and fire can't really ever kill either. All of Canadian thresh's removal Can't realistically target Goyf, and Zoo only gets to hit it with Swords/Path. The removal in question, which is often bolts, has one target, Sower.

I've tried Divert, and found that the inability to shoot Countryside Crusher/Goblin Lackey/Woolly Thoctar/Random-ass Red dudes makes it feel lacking. It is occasionally amazing, but less stable than BEB.

pippo84

08-18-2009, 04:03 PM

So, I'm having problems with my sideboard.
Red is just in the SB as for now..
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
And then??
I would like 2 Berserk because it's really strong and is not an overkill. But, then??
I would also like Lightning Bolt, and I think some mass removal is a must, like firespout, but when I played it was never useful, although it's full of merfolk around..

Please help, what should I do?
Removal is what I need.. Or creature stealing, or both..
What I wrote is what I really want, then from the berserks on you can change all..

A friend of mine suggests Elephan Grass, it slows aggro and stops tombstalker, progenitus etc..

keys

08-18-2009, 04:24 PM

Bolts cant usually kill Dreadnoughts or Goyfs, and fire can't really ever kill either. All of Canadian thresh's removal Can't realistically target Goyf, and Zoo only gets to hit it with Swords/Path. The removal in question, which is often bolts, has one target, Sower.

Well, no one ever said it would be smart to bring in Sower against Canadian Thresh. But I'm not going to play Control Magic just for that matchup. There are better cards to board in (REB/Divert).

I've tried Divert, and found that the inability to shoot Countryside Crusher/Goblin Lackey/Woolly Thoctar/Random-ass Red dudes makes it feel lacking. It is occasionally amazing, but less stable than BEB.
It's less stable in those situations, but there are still things you can do: divert Edict/Pulse/StP to hit Crusher, and Path/Fireblast to hit Thoctar. The point isn't just that it's occasionally amazing; it's also more useful against the entire field, not just red decks. Eva Green and other sui variants are a good example.

Rood

08-18-2009, 09:19 PM

Sower is really good in any kind of CB/Top mirror TBH it sucks badly vs Zoo and is mediocre at best against Merfolk. It's a metagame call, not everybody should be running it in their board. Also, Divert is a situational card even in the matchups you bring it in. Better off just running removal (Bolt, BEB) in those slots, because you know they'll almost always be good when you bring them in.

Muradin

08-19-2009, 05:31 AM

I've been running Sower of Temptation in my board when Aggro Loam was running rampant in my metagame but in the meanwhile it is no longer needed as I feel comfortable playing the CB + Top mirror against most people and actually even in those matchups Sower is definitely not reliable as he dies so easily and more or less forces your opponent to answer him. Furthermore he has cc4 and gets dazed easily if you can't find a 5th land before you have to cast him. I've played Sower of Temptation in several decks now and I have to say that i just don't think he is very strong in Dreadstill.

Besides I ran Ur Dreadstill in the German Legacy Championships. I do own Goyfs and Trops but my testing has shown that in a vast majority of matchups my Ur version was superior to the Ugr lists.

I ended up 6-3 and my matchups were the following:

Round 1: Canadian Threshold 2-1
(I lost 1 game to Trygon Predator but the other 2 were won with Dreadnought/ by landing a Blood Moon)

Round 2: Imperial Painter (2-0)
Game 1 I win with Top + Counterbalance on turn 2 on the play after he drops a Turn 1 Painter and can't resolve any more spells for the rest of the game.

Game 2 boils down to him dropping Grindstone + Painter and me having basically no answer to that. I ask him for the color for Painter and he says blue. In response to the Grindstone activation I slam a Red Elemental Blast on the table and destroy the Painter with it and win from there on because 1 Mishra's Factory > 2 Imperial Recruiter and 1 Simian Spirit Guide.

Round 3: Uwb Geoff Smellski Landstill 0-2 (I guess it is a quite hard matchup and he got very lucky. Game 1 I drop 2nd turn Counterbalance and 3rd Turn Dreadnought, he forces my stifle, I stifle again. Then he tries to remove my Dreadnought with Swords to Plowshares, I whiff on Counterbalance and Force back, which he forces back again. Afterwards I proceed to lose to an Elspeth, 2nd game I managed to Crucible + Waste all of his lands but 4 basics he got into play and lost on turn 20 to 2 Decree of Justice token as I hadn't found Stifle, Mishra, Explosives or Trinket Mage yet...)

Round 4: Canadian Threshold 2-0 (He didn't seem to be that familiar with his deck to say the least and I didn't have a hard time winning)

Round 5: Aggro Loam 1-2
(This is the match that annoyed me most to lose as in testing it was really favorable. Game 1 I mull to 4 as I don't see any lands, play 1 Wasteland the whole game and scoop so he doesn't see what I play. Game 2 second turn Nought wins as he didn't board in Grips.
Game 3 I landed a Turn 2 Standstill after having spell snared his 2nd Turn Tarmogoyf. On turn 3 he drew a Countryside Crusher I destroyed via Blue Elemental Blast. I dropped a Counterbalance to bait a Grip and it did its duty and then I ran out a Dreadnought but he had a 2nd Grip for it. He played 3 Pernicious Deed and 3 Krosan Grip in this game but in the end it boiled down to me having 8 life points, Crucible, Mishra, Wasteland, Counterbalance, Top, 4 other lands (with a fetch land) and a Trinket Mage while he was sitting on his 2 Basics, a Mox Diamond and had a Goyf in Play. Here I misplayed by drawing the only cc2 card I had on top of my deck and playing a Standstill. I guess I was just too greedy as there was virtually no other way to lose this game. We were also close to time and thus I had already popped an unnecessary Relic of Progenitus before as I had a 2nd one only to have the other one Gripped and be left without any graveyard removal. That's why the Tarmogoyf was 6/7. He dropped a 2nd Tarmogoyf, I topped, fetched, topped and failed to find any cc2 card or Engineered Explosivs and had to force the goyf. The next turn he dropped his 4th Goyf and killed me with it.

I know that I misplayed this game but I am still not satisfied with Dreadstill's inability to handle threads, especially postboard. My boardingplan Vs Aggro Loam on the Draw was:

-3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Trickbind
-1 Daze
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Engineered Explosives

I am boarding out the Dreadnoughts because of the critical mass of removal Aggro Loam reaches in G2/G3 with them having Burning wish, Engineered Explosives, Krosan Grip and whatever spot removal they might run. The 1 Dreadnought is left in to use spare stifles and to have one to search up via Trinket Mage.

Round 6: UGW Counterbalance + Natural Order Threshold: 2-1.
Here my boarding plan was to take out the Dreadnoughts as well, in this case all 4 of them. I Wasted to out control my opponent and went for:

-4 Daze (to gain a late game advantage)
-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought (4 Qasali Pride mage, 4 Swords to Plowshares, X Path to Exile and 4 Krosan Grip proved to be too much in testing while the control plan is very good and won me both sideboard games)
+3 Pyroclasm (Pridemage, Noble Hierarch, Goyf afer Relic)
+3 Pyroblast (Counter and kills Rhox War Monk)
+1 Engineered Explosives (best card in this matchup)
+1 Crucible of Worlds (Crucible + Waste / CC3 for Counterbalance and recurring (chump)- blockers.
+2 Relic of Progenitus (shrinks Goyf)

Round 7: Mono W T2 Kithkins 2-0
I got severely mana Screwed both game and won game 1 with a 3rd Turn Dreadnought and game 2 very close with Trinket Mage -> Explosives and a lot of counters while having 3 Pyroclasm in hand but no Red mana despite topping brainstorming a lot this game.

Round 8: Rgb Goblins (1-2)
Game 1 is won with a 2nd Turn Dreadnought.

My boarding plan:
-3 Counterbalance
-4 Standstill
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Pyroclasm
+2 Blood Moon (cuts them of their removal !!!, Standstill + Factory is not viable in this matchup at least not on the draw, makes sure they can't destroy all of your red mana sources.)
Spell Snare stays in over Standstill because I want to win via Dreadnought and Spell Snare counters Warren Weirding and Tin Street Hooligan.

Game 2 I think I should have mulliganed my 6 card hand consisting of

Island, Mishra's Factory, Sensei's Divining Top, Spell Snare, Daze, and Trinket Mage.

Actually this does nothing at all VS Goblins on the draw. Usually this had is perfectly fine against most decks but it doesn't get an early Dreadnought and has no solutions for any reasonable start goblins can put up. I get killed by Lackey -> Siege Gang Commander.

Game 3 I drop an early Nought and swing in once. Then I have it killed via Tin Street Hooligan and get Wasted down to 1 Island. He is mana screwed as well and just beating me down with Hooligan and 1 Goblin Matron he played before wasting me. Down to 8 Life I get a Brainstorm and find Fetchland, Daze, Force of Will. I put back Force and some random card from my hand (as he is still mana screwed was my reasoning) and fetch it away. The next turn I draw a Stifle from the top for my Dreadnought waiting in my hand and go for it. As he just has 2 mana, Daze + Force should get me there (he is at 7 from the last Nought) unless he has a Grip and topdecks a land, in which case it doesn't matter what I do. I go for the nought and he Pyroblasts my Stifle and I think: I am a scrub. Of course Goblins can have blasts postboard to screw with blue decks as well.
I force it and my Nought resolves. On his next turn he draws a Land to pay for the Daze and kills my Nought with Warren Weirding and proceeds to win.
This was really dumb as taking the force would simply have won this game and I handed a win my deck gave me with the topdecked stifle straight away because I hadn't thought of Pyroblast.

Round 9: Zoo (2-0)

Game 1 I am still angry on myself because I scrubbed out so hard last match and drop turn 2 Dreadnought, turn 3 Dreadnought on the play while he gets a Qasali Pride Mage on his 2nd turn and scoops afterwards.
Game 2 he plays a turn 1 Wild Nacatl, turn 2 Qasali Pride Mage, turn 3 Qasali Pride Mage. I play turn 3 Pyroclasm and it's over after I get rid of a Goyf via Engineered Explosives and get CB + Top going.

My maindeck was this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23002 (Standard Ur deck list)

with my sideboard being:
3 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

Basically I have huge problems with Krosan Grip in the Aggo matchups. Versus most control decks I can just take out my Noughts and win postboard but VS Goblins and Goyf Sligh / Zoo (Not Aggro Loam as this is usually very favorable for me) I need a fast nought to win most of the time. My testing has shown that most of the time Goyf is "neat" but I'd rather have 4 Noughts, 3 Trinket Mage and a full set of Dazes + the Crucible (the single copy is the card that improves this deck's lategame as much as I'd never have thought one card can do). Goyf was always ok but green gave us a weaker mana base and regarding the matchups goyf isn't particularly strong in the agggro control matchups, he does very little Vs Merfolk and you need at least 2-3 of them to win against Goblins and Goyf Sligh while Nought does the job alone in game 1. I want to have the highest possible chance to get an early Dreadnought VS random decks and aggro in G1/G2 so I would never cut any Dreadnoughts/ Trickbinds/ Trinket Mage for them.
(I might actually be biased in favor of Trinket Mage because I like the card a lot for what it does in this deck by getting the single Explosives as our only removal spell as well as Top to complement the counterbalance lock and improve card quality as well as Dreadnought and GY hate post board.)

Basically I don't want to chance the maindeck as it runs so smoothly for me but rather the sideboard. I want the deck to be better against Krosan Grip and I'm tired of getting killed by single weak threats such as Goyfs shrinked by Relic, Noble Hierarch beats, Mishra's Factory, 2 Decree of Justice tokens, Qasali Pride Mage... Especially the last named has proven to cause serious trouble despite us having many Stifle effects.

What do you think about:
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Kira Great Glass Spinner
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast

I yet have to come up with any good solutions to Krosan Grip, the best ones being Meddling Mage and Duress from the board but this means splashing another color that isn't red and Pyroblast and Pyroclasm / Moon were the best sideboardcards next to Relic of Progenitus I've ever had so far.

Tangle.Wire

08-19-2009, 05:37 AM

So on sunday i am gonna play a larger tournament around here and need to set up my decklist now. My current:

3 Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
1 engineerd explosives
2 Lightning Bolt

3 M. Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Tormods crypt
2 pithing needle
3 firespout
3 pyroblast
2 submerge
3 krosan grip

I still dont feel like playing 2 daze but maybe its correct that daze isnt really needed at all. As i dont like running sower maybe it will still be better than submerge?

What you guys think about the list? Is there something that definitly should be modified? - The Meta will be like the most common metas, Merfolk,Survival,Zoo,Landstill,Loam, Countertop etc..

Rood

08-19-2009, 07:07 AM

Muradin you're boarding out too many Dreadnoughts in most of your matches...never go below 2 in any matchup no matter how much removal they have...it's still your primary win condition and if you board out 3 or 4 you will find it hard to ever win a round. Counterbalance pretty much shuts down a vast majority of the removal vs Tribe and Aggro Loam. The only card you really have to fear with this deck is Krosan Grip. That's the only card we cannot answer. You also have to remember that if they have 1000000x removal spells for our Dreadnoughts maindeck that means they have very little actual potency of threats and whatnot.

As for my boarding strategies I will always stay at least 2 Dreadnoughts in any matchup no matter what they're playing. Even the matchups Standstill is medicore in (Merfolk) I sometimes will leave in one, as a silver bullet. Postboard with Crucibles you actually can use Standstill alot better then most. Believe it or not Standstill is not that terrible against Gobz postboard...we have EE BEB FoW for their first turn plays. Sometimes I'll leave in two even on the draw.

As for sideboards this is what I think you should try out

2 Magus of the Moon
3 Kira Great Glass Spinner
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast

Magus is meh right now with Zoo/Tempo Thresh on the rise. Not to mention it does absolutely nothing vs Merfolk. Kira is nice but slow you will find it not be a sufficient answer to K-Grip. Sower as stated is okay but against any kind of tribal decks you're going to want faster answers, especially against Goblins and Merfolk. Relics are pretty good they are an absolute house. Pyroclasms inability to handle Nacatl, Ape...and 3/3 Lord pumped tribal critters made me turn away from this card a while ago. Not to mention it won't kill Mongoose most of the time.

This is why I'm running and it's been very solid

// Lands
6 [APL] Island (3)
2 [U] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [BD] Lightning Bolt

pippo84

08-20-2009, 01:08 PM

Every UGR build runs Firespout in the SB. How did it work for you? I'm just asking because it has never been so great to me..

Shimi

08-20-2009, 10:55 PM

Every UGR build runs Firespout in the SB. How did it work for you? I'm just asking because it has never been so great to me..

I was playing UGr build and running 2 firespouts but the grow of merfolks make me find spot for 4 lighting bolt and 3 firespouts , if i won the G2 and G3 against merfolks that is firespouts giving me time to do a secure dreadnought and card advantage that the standstill (sided out) should do in the deck.Against Goblins it just is the way to victory if you can't race them with nought or counter the T1 lackey.

pippo84

08-21-2009, 01:28 PM

Thanks for the answer. Now another question: why is everyone playing lightning bolt instead of fire/ice? Ok, fire is 1 damage less, but with ice it's much more versatile: it slows down tombstalker, a threat that the deck can't answer once it's on the board. Is that 1 damage more so important, or is it 1 mana less or what?

keys

08-21-2009, 01:58 PM

pippo84

08-21-2009, 09:30 PM

So, this is my latest list. Hope I'll have time to playtest the changes today..
First of, I play 20 lands. I tried 20 and 21 in the past and I'm fine with both.
Second, the list unfortunately has 61 cards to fit all I wanted.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

3 Phytexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast

What do you think about it? I tried to fit 3 Lightning Bolts in the main and since I had 2 open slots I chose to play 61 cards.
Those 2 slots could have been 1 more Dreadnought + Trickbind or 1 more Counterbalance + 1 more Sensei's Divining Top and thus play 60 cards.
The side was tight and this is the main reason I chose for Lightning Bolt in the main board..
I think the side is quite balanced and it should rock merfolk and landstill.
Waiting for time to playtest it hope to find some comments!
If I had 2 slots for berserk that I love.. Yeah, I know.. I'm the onlyone who likes it.. "Smile"

Shimi

08-22-2009, 01:57 PM

lorddotm

08-22-2009, 02:46 PM

You might think Fire//Ice is more versatile, but it has additional constraints over Lightning Bolt: (a) it deals 1 less dmg, so it can't kill Nacatl, Kird Ape, Countryside Crusher, and it's less likely to kill Goyf/multiple lords, and (b) it costs 1 more, which makes it impossible to remove turn 1 Lackey on the draw, and more difficult to play it in conjunction with top/factory activations.

I like a split, with Bolt slightly favored.

The thing is, Bolt is a better card. The chances of doing a 2 for 1 in today's meta of mostly Zoo and Tempo Thresh, are straight up 0. (Personally I feel that Dreadstill, in general, is a horrid choice for the meta, but that's another topic entirely.)

Also, how often do you find yourself using Ice? Dreadstill is much more a control deck than an Aggro Control one, so tapping lands isn't a brilliant plan.

So, this is my latest list. Hope I'll have time to playtest the changes today..
First of, I play 20 lands. I tried 20 and 21 in the past and I'm fine with both.
Second, the list unfortunately has 61 cards to fit all I wanted.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

3 Phytexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast

What do you think about it? I tried to fit 3 Lightning Bolts in the main and since I had 2 open slots I chose to play 61 cards.
Those 2 slots could have been 1 more Dreadnought + Trickbind or 1 more Counterbalance + 1 more Sensei's Divining Top and thus play 60 cards.
The side was tight and this is the main reason I chose for Lightning Bolt in the main board..
I think the side is quite balanced and it should rock merfolk and landstill.
Waiting for time to playtest it hope to find some comments!
If I had 2 slots for berserk that I love.. Yeah, I know.. I'm the onlyone who likes it.. "Smile"

I would just cut a Daze from this list (maybe just cut it entirely, and add in another Counterbalance and a Top?)

On a side note, why does Dreadstill play so many colours? It seems like Mono-Blue would be better since you just need to resolve your dude and protect him. Using lots of bounce, such as Echoing Truth and Wipe Away maybe?

Why choose Dreadstill in today's metagame? It seems since Pridemage is getting so popular, and so are things like Krosan Grip, that this deck is a huge mistake for the metagame? Tempo Thresh, although a different deck (with a lot of the same cards...), seems like a much better choice for the metagame.

FoolofaTook

08-23-2009, 12:14 PM

Why choose Dreadstill in today's metagame? It seems since Pridemage is getting so popular, and so are things like Krosan Grip, that this deck is a huge mistake for the metagame? Tempo Thresh, although a different deck (with a lot of the same cards...), seems like a much better choice for the metagame.

Dreadstill is still a decent choice to play in the current meta. It still has the best combination of fast disruption, lockdown cards, fast wins and card advantage and selection.

It's getting hammered on by Qasali Pridemage and to a lesser extent the spread of Spell Snare, which is not a bad thing - because before those two cards became widespread I felt like the 3c list was far and away the best list in the meta.

The only question that I have at the moment is whether or not the 2c (really MUC) list that Roodmistah favors has regained top position (in terms of Dreadstill pecking order) over the 3c Goyf version that J.V. runs. The 2c list has a better mana base for the Stifle/Wasteland heavy meta that we're in at the moment. The 3c list has Firespout, which is the best addition Dreadstill has seen recently.

Mictlantecuhtli

08-23-2009, 01:30 PM

The 2c list has a better mana base for the Stifle/Wasteland heavy meta that we're in at the moment. The 3c list has Firespout, which is the best addition Dreadstill has seen recently.
To be fair, Firespout is not exclusive to 3c Dreadstill since green is rarely needed to sweep the board. Actually, there is no reason not tu run Firespout in 2c Dreadstill; most list ran Pyroclasm but that's not enough against aggro decks anymore.

FoolofaTook

08-23-2009, 03:56 PM

To be fair, Firespout is not exclusive to 3c Dreadstill since green is rarely needed to sweep the board. Actually, there is no reason not tu run Firespout in 2c Dreadstill; most list ran Pyroclasm but that's not enough against aggro decks anymore.

The reasons green is nice to have are basically Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and the blue lists that run Sower and Clique. Firespout is more valuable in 3c than 2c at this point. 3c has gotten more value out of the addition of the card. The 2c list can just throw a couple of Tropical Islands in for Islands but then they've given away the mana base stability that characterizes the build now.

There are so many games in the control mirror and the tempo mirror (Dreadstill is both archetypes wrapped up in one) where being able to drop an Island without fetching at the start of the game is a huge key to victory. Giving up the likelihood of that is a definite sacrifice the 3c build makes.

Rood

08-23-2009, 04:50 PM

The reasons green is nice to have are basically Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and the blue lists that run Sower and Clique. Firespout is more valuable in 3c than 2c at this point. 3c has gotten more value out of the addition of the card. The 2c list can just throw a couple of Tropical Islands in for Islands but then they've given away the mana base stability that characterizes the build now.

There are so many games in the control mirror and the tempo mirror (Dreadstill is both archetypes wrapped up in one) where being able to drop an Island without fetching at the start of the game is a huge key to victory. Giving up the likelihood of that is a definite sacrifice the 3c build makes.

To be fair you'd be highly unlucky if you ever ran into Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy in a tournament. And even then...you still run REB to smash on FS's soul and Lightning Bolt to handle Dragon Stompy. Not to mention Standstill slays both decks badly. Stifle/Waste is a huge problem that I think cannot be ignored anymore you're right. When I make new decks now I seriously just try for the maximum of basic lands I can fit into the deck just for the reason of how hard it is to hate on that manabase.

pippo84

08-23-2009, 07:20 PM

To be fair you'd be highly unlucky if you ever ran into Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy in a tournament.

You are right, but this makes me laugh because something like 3 tournaments ago I faced both DS and FS in a row! Btw lost to the first for a misplay and won the second..

lorddotm

08-23-2009, 08:12 PM

What about running the other 3 possible Stifle effects in the side, seeing as they are amazing versus Zoo, attacking their mana base and stopping Pridemages. Also, personally think that the UR one seems like a better metagame choice for a controlling deck. You don't really want your lands blown to hell, so that helps a lot (plus you can get away with only 4-6 fetches). Tarmogoyf is just lame here and worse than 'Naught. This is what I would run for this deck:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Phytexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
3 Trickbind
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus

1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trickbind
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt

FoolofaTook

08-23-2009, 08:37 PM

Tarmogoyf sounds like win more in this deck but it really isn't. It creates a threat density that can just roll the opponent in some matches. It's not a must include, but if you're not facing mana denial the 3c list is stronger than the 2c list. It's the amount of mana denial that is in the meta at the moment that has brought the question back to light again.

Decks with Stifle/Wasteland in the order you're likely to see them in a 5 round tourney: Tempo Threshold, Merfolk, Dreadstill, Team America, Faeries. A significant part of the competitive meta is in those 5 decks especially the first 3.

Decks with Wasteland/Crucible same deal: UWx Landstill, Ultimate Walker.

Decks that will blow up non-basic land plans in a hurry: Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy.

So the question is whether or not the raw power of Tarmogoyf in almost every matchup is worth the risk of sitting down opposite one of the above and losing because their scheme runs smoothly and cuts yours off at the knees.

On your list: not enough threats in my opinion. You'll have games where you wait forever to draw something after you have gotten the advantage and will subsequently lose the advantage as a result. I would take out 2 Trickbind, which are weak cards in a lot of matchups and put back in a Trinket Mage and a Mishra's Factory. The question of 4 Sensei's Divining Top and 4 Counterbalance is I guess preferential. The people who have been playing the list the longest tend to run 3 (or even 2) tops and 3 Counterbalance. I don't know which is the best choice to make but the people who do have chosen less CounterTop for more other stuff.

pippo84

08-23-2009, 09:17 PM

Agreed. Tarmogoyf is not a win more. It is another threat added to the deck! Without it you will have some games where you just wait to find nought and if your opponent has creatures on the board you can't drop a standstill. And with the low removal the deck has you'll eventually lose.
Btw if you don't play tarmogoyf you must play 3 trinket mages and 4 noughts.
From my experience I don't remember having big problems with 3 color manabase even though it's full of wasteland etc around..

J.V.

08-24-2009, 02:53 AM

Are people really having that much of a problem with Pridemage? Honestly I have had zero issue winning right through him, since Zoo became what it currently is I'm X-1 (With a loss to Scrumdogg off of 2 mulls to 5 in 3 games and it still came down to him top decking a K Grip with 0 cards in hand to just squeak through for a win that would have been unreachable if I was able to untap and blow my E.E.) against it and I've played it plenty. I run 3 Spell Snare, 5 Stifle Effects, Dazes and Forces, and if it comes down first Counterbalance has a good shot at countering it. (not to mention Lightning Bolt and Firespout out of the board) He just isn't on the board enough to be relevant. I feel like zoo plays out like this about 90% of the time They play a couple of guys I counter their Goyf. Then I either E.E. or Firespout wiping the rest of their creatures and drop a standstill. From there they are never really in the game anymore since I get so ahead on cards. Also even with Pridemage and K-Grip getting to 3 mana for either can be really tough for them through Stifles and Wastes.

Also on a side note, for anyone like me who cut the GY hate from the board I suggest re-adding it since Ichorid just won Worlds and Eli's most recent tournament and I really expect it to spike in play.

Tarmogoyf is just lame here and worse than 'Naught.
What are you basing this off of? I win just as many games with Goyf as I do Nought. In all honesty Rodney just wins with a sub par deck because he's better at magic than 90% of the people who play, I don't think he even believes the deck is better without Goyf anymore, he just goes with the philosophy of why fix something that isn't broken.

And while I'm on a tangent, to the people playing Firespout in Ur you should be running at least one trop to fetch out to spout the air and to improve E.E.
Reasons why:
Vendilion Clique
Sower of Temptation
Hypnotic Specter
Rakdos Pit Dragon
Trygon Predator
etc, etc

Despite the fact I doubt you are reading the Dreadstill Thread, this list is Dedicated to you Zach Tartell. <3

Tangle.Wire

08-24-2009, 03:43 AM

So heres some food from me:

As i already said i played on a bigger local tournament playing the 0815 UGR build exactly this:

3 Dread
2 Trinket
4 Goofy

4 Counterbalance
3 d. top
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
3 daze
3 spell snare
2 engineered explosives
4 foce of will
3 standstill

3 mishras factory
3 wasteland
2 island
3 tropical island
4 volcanic island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

Sideboard:

3 pyroblast
3 firespout
2 krosan grip
2 trygon predator
3 relic of progenitus
2 submerge

The matchups ended like this:

Game 1 - Elves - 2:1
Game 2 - Eva Green - 1:2 (lucky guy)
Game 3 - B/W/U Countertop - 1:2
Game 4 - Solidarity - 2:0
Game 5 - Dredge 1:2
Game 6 - Countertop G/U/W/B? - 2:1
Game 7 - Dropped cause i wanted to get home ^^

All the day i wondered how unlucky i was against the Eva green and the countertop on game 3 i am sure without a bad draw as i had even after mulligan i would have won those games.

For the list i found out some new experiences:

- Trygon Predator was quiete better than krosan grips all the day.
- Daze was only pitched to a force in one game then i always boarded them out or didnt even draw any. (i didnt need them at all)
- I lost 2 rounds against critters like confidant/single elves
- I agree there have to be better slots than submerge or at least beside submerge to handly tombstalkers
- 2 explosives in the mainboard a much stronger than i ever thought, they won 1game and even saved a lot of time for 2-3 other games.

After all i saw a lot of zoo, r/g beats and the common meerfolks beside the tables making sure UGR is a pretty solid build on my meta.

I already changed my list up like this getting faster without cutting the counterbalance as i always tried:

3 Dreadnought
4 Goofy
2 Trinket Mage

3 D. top
4 Counterbalance
4 stifle
3 lightning bolt
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 force of will
3 standstill
2 engineered explosives

Sideboard:

2 Control Magic
3 Trygon Predator
3 Pyroblast
2 Reclic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 submerge

I think the few games i would have liked daze on my hand i would have countered fast creatures hindering me playing the standstill or just locking up with the counterbalance so even the early goofies are played as 2/3 creatures so all the problems i got could have been fixed by a L. Bolt either i didnt play the matchups they are really good at. :rolleyes:

J.V.

08-24-2009, 01:15 PM

The two Dazes aren't random at all. Daze itself is a terrible card that tends to clog up your hand beyond turn 3/4 so by running two you don't draw into too many of them but you draw it enough for your opponent to know you run it so they still play around it which makes it worth while.

That. Also how was Submerge out of the board for you?

pippo84

08-24-2009, 01:44 PM

I'm not sure about running just 2 Daze. Ok, if the game lasts quite a bit they are useless, but you really want to see them at the beginning of the game, something like turn 2 or 3.
I play, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Snare, 4 Force of will and 3 Counterbalance. A thing that I love is counters, probably it's a way I like to play, but I always wish I had more counters available.
Unfortunately there is no other free counter avaialble.. (Don't tell me pact of negation!!)

Xero_2285

08-24-2009, 02:19 PM

Was wondering if I can get some thoughts on this build:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Krosan Grip
3 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt

Mainboard Grip is great for NLU, MBC, Survival, and to an extent some Landstill builds. Mainboard Needle has been great for the Zoo (with Pridemage), MBC, Goblins, Affinity, DStompy, Survival, and again some Landstill builds. People in my meta seem to have forgotten all about Needle for some reason and I'm thinking about coming down a Grip main and adding another Needle main. Bolt in the board is amazing at a 4 of, game 2 peeps just don't see it coming and it wrecks guys like Coatl/Sower and can win Goyf wars. 3 CB/2 Top has done me good, I almost don't see the need to go up to the 4/3 split. Any thoughts/help would be greatly appreciated.

FoolofaTook

08-25-2009, 01:24 AM

I'm considering trying a slightly more controlling version of the Ur build. I'm having some trouble in testing against Landstill and I'm also looking at Ultimate Walker as potentially problematic although I don't have a test partner for it yet. What I want to do is keep 95% of the Ur Dreadstill shell and add a few cards that help out in the control mirror against slower control decks, particularly ones running 4+ StP effects and Planeswalkers.

This is kind of the first list that came to mind and I'd definitely like some feedback. I'll be testing it against Landstill a lot in the next week I think.

Ur Dreadstill Control

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Trinket Mage
4x Mishra's Factory

4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Standstill
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Counterbalance

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind

3x Wasteland

2x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins

3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Volcanic Island
6x Island

Sideboard

3x Blood Moon
3x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
1x Pithing Needle

The changes are fairly limited in the main deck, basically adding 1x Fact or Fiction, 1x Crucible of Worlds and 1x Academy Ruins and subtracting 1x Standstill, 1x Daze/Spell Snare and forgoing the 6th stifle effect/12th counter/3rd SDT that kind of squishes around in the normal build.

I added the Fact or Fiction for the 4th Standstill because I want more card advantage against slow control and I don't want to be completely dependent on Standstill in games where Standstill is a dead card.

Crucible of Worlds went in as another card advantage device that also is capable of being another lock for the deck against an opponent that has a shaky manabase. This also allowed me to put in Academy Ruins for the AR/EE potential lock that you can get occasionally.

Overall the list has 11 cards in it that are card advantage with 3x Trinket Mage, 3x Standstill, 3x Counterbalance, 1x Crucible of Worlds and 1x Fact or Fiction. I'm curious as to how the card balance feels now against slower control. I usually feel a bit lower on cards in those matches and I want to change that a bit.

The sideboard has 3x Blood Moon as an experiment. I know Roodmistah has tried this in the past and I'm going to give it a shot too just to see how it works. Likely Standstill will be the tuneout when the moons go in. I'm particularly interested in seeing how Tempo Threshold reacts to Blood Moon. There's lots of red there but no basics at all.

Muradin

08-25-2009, 05:15 AM

I'm particularly interested in seeing how Tempo Threshold reacts to Blood Moon. There's lots of red there but no basics at all.

It enters the scoop phase. Unless they have already a beater in play or you are on very low life the game is basically over as soon as you resolve a Blood Moon. The card has lost a lot of its former value in my experience as nobody is running 4 color Landstill or ITF any more but it still wins matchups like Nassif.dec, Tempo Threshold and beats some Rock builds.

Shimi

08-26-2009, 01:15 AM

Tarmogoyf is not a win more. It is another threat added to the deck! Without it you will have some games where you just wait to find nought and if your opponent has creatures on the board you can't drop a standstill. And with the low removal the deck has you'll eventually lose.

That is why i play UGr , also Goyf will be a target for removel and if he dies (smother , new terror , edict and StP) there is a clean path to your Nought and with green we just gain KGrip (dreadstill is very vunerable to CB/Top).From my records i win more games because of Goyf than i lose to my "vulnerable" manabase(the great diference is that you must know when fetch for your tropicals and volcanics).

I would NEVER cut daze..it makes your opponent play slower which helps on playing your nought with "protection",and you can do standstill/CB/Goyf and still counter your opponent play next turn.

Also if i would be forced to play Ur i would play with 4 lightning bolts and 4 Mishra's Maindeck.

Tangle.Wire

08-26-2009, 03:57 AM

That. Also how was Submerge out of the board for you?

Submerge where just played at 2 games i already won, but id like to play 3 of them they are pretty strong and i nearly wished every game to have one same for the lightning bolts as dreadstill hast just to survive till u drop the counterbalance or nought so in fact thats it why i dropped daze completely out of my list, everything i countered with daze could be removed/stopped by other spells i play also daze slows down the own deck as i want to drop a land nearly for every round till i have 3-4.

-> ps: what do you guys think how many people really expect that u don't run daze? yes they dont see it but 99% of blue, at least countertop decks run them so just bluff for it. i did it 3 times on my last tournament by just doing as i wanted to lift an island for a daze while i was "thinking" so my opponent thought i would have a daze and didn't want to waste it so he played the crap spells first to run into my daze what never happend as i got enough time to race the game :D

FoolofaTook

08-26-2009, 10:40 AM

Tangle.Wire

08-27-2009, 03:05 AM

Just be careful not to take your bluff too far and materially change the game state as a result. If you actually put the Island in your hand as part of the bluff your opponent could demand that you play the Daze you were implying and call a judge over if you refused and tried to return the Island to play instead.

Any play that legally and materially changes the game state (like tapping a land as an example) cannot be taken back unless your opponent allows you to do so. Plays that materially change the game state in an illegal fashion, like returning an Island to your hand to play a Daze you do not have, can cause a forfeit.

Slow down, u just say "wait let me think" touch your island...say "no its fine, go on" and the opponent thinks you got anything you could cast actually while he is playing a spell so he will remind it for the next turns.

Its a classic bluff where no Judge could ever say some cause you dont return the land, you dont tap it for anything and you dont show/play anything from your hand. Its also a strategy i dont use only on daze its a safe way to ruin your opponents mind while both playing counters just letting him feel you got force on your hand but letting the "weak" spells resolve.

It definitly doesnt work after a cabal therapy, duress, thoughtseize anyway :D

ps: Are there any UR/UGR Dreadstill tournament reports beside the one vsTheWorld wrote?

Xero_2285

08-27-2009, 10:56 AM

ps: Are there any UR/UGR Dreadstill tournament reports beside the one vsTheWorld wrote?

Last Saturday I went 4-2 with the list I posted above:

R1: UWx Landstill 1-2
R2: MonoR Burn 2-0
R3: UGW Zoo? 2-0
R4: RGB Zoo? 2-1
R5: MBC 1-2
R6: Same UGW Zoo 2-0

Tangle.Wire

08-27-2009, 11:02 AM

Last Saturday I went 4-2 with the list I posted above:

R1: UWx Landstill 1-2
R2: MonoR Burn 2-0
R3: UGW Zoo? 2-0
R4: RGB Zoo? 2-1
R5: MBC 1-2
R6: Same UGW Zoo 2-0

Grats, but was the pithing needle needed at all? i'd cut it for either another daze or explosives.

Xero_2285

08-27-2009, 11:09 AM

Grats, but was the pithing needle needed at all? i'd cut it for either another daze or explosives.

The Needle was great. Against MBC I named either Staff of Domination or Oblivion Stone, against the burn deck I named either Hellspark Elemental or Hell's Thunder, against the UGW Zoo I dropped and named Windswept Heath turn 1 and watched him reveal 2 from his hand (he did not get a land until 4th turn), against Landstill I drew it too late but would have named Academy Ruins and game 2 and 3 Grindstone, against the RBG Zoo I named Putrid Leach (the rest of that deck was jank it seemed).

I was thinking about adding a 2nd Needle main for the MBC and Landstill match ups. Another Daze would be nice (trying to fit that in) and 1 explosives has worked out well for me.

pippo84

08-27-2009, 11:30 AM

Needle is an underrated card. It's really good. Think at planeswalkers, explosives, fetches, deed, quasali, manlands, sdt and the list goes on and on.

FoolofaTook

08-27-2009, 11:39 AM

Last Saturday I went 4-2 with the list I posted above:

R1: UWx Landstill 1-2
R2: MonoR Burn 2-0
R3: UGW Zoo? 2-0
R4: RGB Zoo? 2-1
R5: MBC 1-2
R6: Same UGW Zoo 2-0

I like the list. I wonder a bit about 2x KGrip as dead cards in some matchups and as cards that you really do not want to see in the opening hand because of that.

The matchups I'm having some trouble with right now are Landstill, Merfolk and anything that uses The Rock's general gameplan of destroy everything with 12+ pure removal effects.

KGrip doesn't address enough of the issues in those matchups to clearly swing the game in my favor. At that point I wonder whether or not having it MD is just weakening the deck overall to somewhat improve it's chances in the tough matchups.

I do like the idea of being able to kill vial on turn 3 before it has caused major problems.

Xero_2285

08-27-2009, 11:47 AM

I'm sitting here looking at my deck and thinking the same thing about Grip. I was thinking maybe -2 Grip +1 Needle +1 Daze, or just -1 Grip +1 Needle because 2 Daze has worked pretty well and see how it works because I did side Grip out in most of the match ups the other day because I didn't see any NLU at all. I hope I don't end up missing them.

Needle hits Vial, Mutavault, Cursecatcher, Sovereign, Acedemy Ruins, if Landstill gets WasteLock on you it could be a good idea to name Wasteland even thought it screws your own. I don't see Rock at all in my meta but I can imagine naming Deed, Pridemage.

J.V.

08-27-2009, 12:32 PM

ps: Are there any UR/UGR Dreadstill tournament reports beside the one vsTheWorld wrote?

Hadley 4th out of 42
(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10731)The Source Anniversary tournament, 1st (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11607)
Hadley 3rd out of 36 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9712)

Alexfrog

08-27-2009, 06:43 PM

The Needle was great. Against MBC I named either Staff of Domination or Oblivion Stone, against the burn deck I named either Hellspark Elemental or Hell's Thunder, against the UGW Zoo I dropped and named Windswept Heath turn 1 and watched him reveal 2 from his hand (he did not get a land until 4th turn), against Landstill I drew it too late but would have named Academy Ruins and game 2 and 3 Grindstone, against the RBG Zoo I named Putrid Leach (the rest of that deck was jank it seemed).

I was thinking about adding a 2nd Needle main for the MBC and Landstill match ups. Another Daze would be nice (trying to fit that in) and 1 explosives has worked out well for me.

How do you know quickly enough in game 1 what your opponent is playing, to do stuff like name Windswept Heath against Zoo? Are you playing mostly against people you know, so you know what deck they are playing?

Obviously there are matchups where you could figure out what they are playing and then play needle before they can play the key card, but often making it good would seem to rely on prior deck knowledge.

Xero_2285

08-27-2009, 07:09 PM

How do you know quickly enough in game 1 what your opponent is playing, to do stuff like name Windswept Heath against Zoo? Are you playing mostly against people you know, so you know what deck they are playing?

Obviously there are matchups where you could figure out what they are playing and then play needle before they can play the key card, but often making it good would seem to rely on prior deck knowledge.

People in my meta often switch decks but our regulars like me normally stay with one. The 2 rounds where I named Heath against the guy, I know he normally plays Zoo and I had seen him using the Heath's the round before so it was a pretty safe drop. He was also running Delta's and Strand's, I just happened to guess correctly the 4 games we played that day. Even when I went 2nd and after he cracked his first Heath, I still dropped Needle and named Heath because it was a safe bet that he might have more in his hand and the card advantage was too great for me to pass up.

Now it's obvious to do things like this only when you know who and what you are playing. In a much more diverse meta in a larger field, these would not be the correct actions of play because you never know what your going against in the first turn or so.

pippo84

08-31-2009, 08:23 PM

Shimi

08-31-2009, 09:03 PM

I just read again some parts of the older posts. No one recently plays old suggestions that had a boom for a while and then got forgotten and every one just sticks to UGR, correct?

I refer to white splash with StP and Oblivion Ring; kira; bob; crucible and so on..

Btw how do you generally play/board in against landstill? It's one of the mu's I hate most..
And what about pox?

I have a friend who plays 8-pox deck with tombstalker so i this MU the key is counter cruciable(waste lock and mishra's ruin us) , beware of tombstalker and only drop nought if it is well protected(remeber you could use mishras to couter pox effect but u will lost TONS of lands), standstill may be a good call but becarful they have 4 mishra's and 4 wastes and we just 3 of each.
So sideboard is something like this:
-1 nought
-1 trickbind
-1 CB
-1 standstill

+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Relic of progenitos/pitting neddle.

Obs:You could also bring in bounces and cruciable if you play them.

J.V.

09-01-2009, 11:31 AM

FoolofaTook

09-01-2009, 11:54 AM

from my current list, this is my side-boarding strategy against Landstill.
Lands:21
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

Creatures:9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:30
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Daze
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:15
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 REB

Have you thought about finding a 4cc spell to put in the mix so you can lockout their Planeswalkers with CounterTop? I'm actually doing much better against Landstill with the list I posted above and one of the big factors is that as soon as I find Fact or Fiction I do everything I can to keep it second on top, under a Trinket Mage, to keep Elspeth off the board. It works fairly well in that capacity too because I usually have about 10 turns to find it before Elspeth becomes inevitable.

pippo84

09-01-2009, 06:38 PM

Anyone has ever thought of adding 2 Trygon Predators in the main deck? It could be helpful in a meta with many counterbalance etc..
I was brainstorming with a friend of why the red splah instead of the white one is more popular and why play Lightning Bolt. Swords is a better removal, and red offers Red Elemental Blast. I then added that we play Firespout as a mass removal and white as mass removal has Wrath of God, but with 2W it's unplayable and costs four.. He then pointed out Planar Collapse.
The idea could be interesting.. With just 2 mana you can kill all creatures, so helping against aggro decks. True it goes under Krosan Grip and Stifle, but it doesn't seem so bad for me..
Thoughts?

keys

09-01-2009, 06:46 PM

The wonderful thing about Firespout is that it hits most of the format, but leaves your Noughts and often your Goyfs untouched. The same isn't true of Wrath/Planar Collapse/whatever.

pippo84

09-01-2009, 06:52 PM

True, but removes Tombstalker, a threat that our deck can't remove. And you can always cast 'nought after using Planar Collapse..

lorddotm

09-01-2009, 06:53 PM

The wonderful thing about Firespout is that it hits most of the format, but leaves your Noughts and often your Goyfs untouched. The same isn't true of Wrath/Planar Collapse/whatever.

That and not sucking against Stifle and Krosan Grip, two of the most common cards in Legacy.

Tangle.Wire

09-02-2009, 05:00 AM

My current list plays 2 control magic in the mainboard, they are awesome and imo much better than sower of temptation cause they just don't die as fast. I personally never came to the situation countering a planeswalker with a cc4 spell on the counterbalance but true its possible even for spells like moat,wrath,sowers(opponent),elspeth etc.

For trygon predator, they are pretty good especially under the counterbalance protection but i had no space for 11 creatures on the mainboard so i board out 2 trinket mages for 2 predator normally and it works pretty good.

lorddotm

09-02-2009, 05:04 AM

Tangle.Wire

09-02-2009, 08:24 AM

thats true but if u run a list like this:

3 dreadnought
2 trinket
4 goofy
2 predator
+ maybe 2 sower

please tell me how you will be able to drop all those creatures by keeping enough mana free for counter/top action, it can only work on the mid-lategame where we normally only want to have a dreadnought on the table. Also a bunch of creatures gets blocked by our own standstill. I already often thought for myself that even 9 creatures is pretty much. :rolleyes:

pippo84

09-02-2009, 02:11 PM

Tangle.Wire

09-03-2009, 03:36 AM

So, Sunday I'll attend a tourney and obviously I'll play dreadstill.. You can find my list some posts above.. Probably the other page..
Well, I expect a meta full of Bant (survival, countertop or vial); landstill and merfolk. Then there will be loads of other decks since it will be a 70-80 people tournament. Suggestions?

It sounds kinda like my meta, almost zoo/naya/bant builds where rising up the last days here same for the baseruption/countertop builds and merfolk so i personally turned my list into this:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dreadnought
2 Trinket mage

4 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
3 Divining Top
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Control Magic

3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Mishras factory
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island

Sideboard:

2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
1 Control Magic

I am still not sure if i should cut daze out of the list as i dont feel like 2 are needed at all 3-4 are pretty good but as i said i don't trust the 2 daze strategy. By cutting 2 daze i would add +1 Control Magic +1 Spell Snare so for the countermatchup i would have another slot for the 4th pyroblast (or maybe the red/pyro split).
Also by adding the 2 control magic in the mainboard i would have the Space to keep Submerge in the Sideboard for those slots against aggro or as adition if it goes to the tombstalker matchup.

The rest is pretty basic.

Wasteland

09-03-2009, 06:32 AM

whienot

09-03-2009, 11:20 AM

Bolts are fantastic if you have an aggro meta. Lately mine has been infested with zoo and all sorts of tribal (including standard Kithkin.) Bolt + Spout really helps get you ahead.

I played them in the side of a Ugr CounterTop Natural Order build and Bolts came in almost every round.

BigDCool

09-03-2009, 04:50 PM

I went to the Vestal NYTournament recently in August and took Dread-still I believe 66 players were in attendance.

Here is the list that I used.

Land: 21
4 Waste land
3 Mishra’s factory
3 Islands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Stands
3 Tropical Islands
2 Volcanic Islands

Enchantments: 7
4 Counter Balance
3 Standstill

Instants: 19
4 Force of will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Echoing Return*

Creatures: 9
3 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts
3 Tarmogoyf’s
3 Trinket Mage’s

Other Artifacts: 4
3 Sensi’s Divining top
1 Engineered Explosives

Side:

3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydro Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Pogenitous

*Ok as for the Echoing returns, I thought I had some spell snares somewhere and I could not find them I debated over putting in 3 Lightning bolts or Fire and Ice as well. Echoing won because overall I thought having the bouce would be the most useful. Echoing returns however, did just about nothing all day besides the Landstill match I played and all it really did was delay my loss.

Here is what I played from memory:

Round 1: Canadian Thresh I believe I pulled this one out 2-0

Round 2: Mono Green Chalice aggro, I get schooled Game 1, I don’t have an answer for a turn 3 Progenitous, and game 2 he gets and early choke and I cant find an answer. Lose 2-0

Round 3: This was against Elf Ball I believe, Game 1 I get owned by a swarm of elves, Game 2 I mull to 5 but have Stifle nought for turn 2 and it goes all the way. Game 3 is remarkably similar but this time I get to keep my opening 7.

Round 4: Dragon stompy, I believe I win game 1 with an early Dreadnought, game two I get beat down by a Magus of the moon and cant find a single answer. Game 3 I counter 3-4 of his early threats and beat him down with just a trinket mage. Win 2-1

Round 5: Tempo Thresh, Game 1 goes to him after I counter one of double goyf’s and then I don’t have a counter for his bounce on my Dreadnought (and yes I am dumb). Game 2 he is in control this game he has counters for all my threats and I get beat down with green men. On a side note, I found out in the beginning of this match that I lost a polluted delta between rounds no one finds it and I’m out 20 dollars I was not very happy. It also got very hot in the store and I was sweating like a whore in church.

Round 6: Landstill, another very skilled opponent that I believe I have played before. Game one he wins I can’t get anything online to stop him. Game 2 ends in a tie as we just stall out. I’m very sorry about he 4 wastelands that game. I lose 1-0-1. I dropped after this.

All in all I love how the deck can play aggressive aggro or be a tight control deck. Not being a regular magic player anymore, I usually pick up a deck in the dark and just see how I do with it. I feel that with this deck if I can polish my play, I might have a better shot at some prizes. I was 3-1 going in to the 5th round had I played better it could have been a first time top 8 for me. As always the Vestal NY tournaments are awesome, everyone I played was extremely nice and patient with me as well which made for an enjoyable day up until I found out I somehow dropped a polluted delta out of my deck.

Rood

09-03-2009, 07:14 PM

@Rodney Hannigan - did you ever test 2-3 Lightning Bolts in the SB against Merfolk / Sui / Zoo / Random Aggro?
If anyone has tested them, how good are they?
Together with Red Blasts a UR Sideboard could look like:

2x blue elemental blast
3x red elemental blast
3x lightning bolt
2x pyroclasm
2x blood moon
1x engineered explosives
2x relic of progenitus

(cutted 1crucible 1blue blast and 1pyroclasm for the bolts to test them)

Greetz, Marius Hausmann

I run Bolts in my SB now...they're an absolute beating. Don't run pyroclasm it's garbage now...run Firespout. Cut the BEBs for +1 Spout and +1 Bolt and -2 Clasm +2 Firespout. Everything else looks solid.

Also @ Tangle.Wire- I'd cut the 1x Control Magic for a 3rd Daze. IMO it's so valuable in the early game I'd never go below 3.

pippo84

09-04-2009, 07:15 AM

Atog

09-04-2009, 07:51 AM

So, if bolts are sided in most times, why not just find a slot to play 3 MB?
Also, no1 is playing crucible anymore?
In my current list I have 3 CB, but I see everyone plays 4. I play 3 just to find the space for 3 Lightning bolt in the main and 2 crucibles in the side. Comments on this?

My current build, looking forward to improve it until sunday's tournament..

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast

I don't play this deck but i play counter/top engine, so i would drop -1x Engineered Explosives for Sensei's Divining Top. Just because you want it turn 1 and second turn balance. If you are running just 2 of them and trinket mages, you will come in situation where you are holding stifle in hand and you have zero SDT in play and are resolving Trinket mage. Do then fetch naught or SDT? Yup.

Alexfrog

09-04-2009, 05:44 PM

Lightning Bolt: Its pretty essential against aggro. I played a bunch against merfolk and I was much more likely to win with Bolt.

I think 2 Bolts are better than having the 4th Counterbalance/3rd Top.
I also cut one of the two EEs for one, as EE feels pretty expensive.

I cut a daze for a pithing needle.
Pithing needle was great against merfolk (Aether Vial), but I am not sure how it is overall. At least its a tutorable answer to a variety of problems.

FoolofaTook

09-04-2009, 07:55 PM

Pithing needle was great against merfolk (Aether Vial), but I am not sure how it is overall. At least its a tutorable answer to a variety of problems.

The best targets for Pithing Needle, meaning most abundant in the metagame, are Sensei's Divining Top, Wasteland and Mishra's Factory. That's why I run it in the sideboard and not main deck. Don't get me wrong, it's a great option to have but it's not easily applicable in most matches given our needs and so I leave it in the side until I see something that I really want to stop.

It's wonderful against Elspeth, or any other Planeswalker, and so it comes in then. It's an answer against Qasali Pridemage so it comes in then. As you point out it's great against Merfolk, Goblins and Survival so it comes in then. Other than that it really doesn't get a lot of play for me. I never see Grindstone or Goblin Charbelcher and there are so few other activated abilities that are killer enough to warrant bringing in an option to pre-emptively shut them down instead of just countering them in the first place.

Tangle.Wire

09-05-2009, 06:32 AM

Hi guys i am going to play 2 tournaments this month so i would like to discuss the list i was thinking about:

3 Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator

1 Engineered explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
3 Senseis divining top
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

3 Island
2 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
3 Submerge
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
1 Tarmogoyf

Some points to deck+sideboard:

I actually like trygon predator very much as it is excellent against all counterbalance archetypes and will hinder the opponent to cast any threats (ench,arti) aslong as the predator remains in play, also the 2/3 is ok against beating critters.
- By adding the 2 predators i cutted 1 explosives and 1 tarmogoyf (sideboard)

I feel like playing 3 daze mainboard is neccecary against most every aggro/fast deck to survive till i can drop a standstill or counterbalance also for playing fast stifle dreadnoughts daze is needed to protect them.

- Spell Snares also had to remain on 3 for my list as i needed them against goofy as i only would play 2.

Sideboard:

Its pretty basically 3 submerge are for the mostly every matchup running goofy or green at all.

2 Grips are needed as fast removal if trygon doesnt stay in play.
3 Pyroblasts for the blue matchups i would love to play 4 but most of the time i only have 3 slots i want to board out against counter matchups.
- Firespouts great against aggro
- 2 Relic of progenitus only against the loam games i dont have any boarding plans against dredge other than maybe the firespouts.

I'd like to get some thoughts about this list, also i feel like playing 1 needle for the sideboard againat the ultimate walker/landstill (elspeth) matchups also for pridemage/explosives/deeds

pippo84

09-05-2009, 11:29 AM

So, tomorrow I've got the tournament.. :cool:

I changed my list a bit and went to 21 lands instead of 20. I know most of you play 21, but 20 was always fine for me. Not sure about this 1. Maybe i'll cut 1 Volcanic island for a daze..

Things I don't like:
61 Cards
2 Daze

but at least i fitted in almost all I wanted (except the 3rd daze..)
The problem of playing 61 cards is that I want a Pithing Needle, MB or SB. But I want one. And don't know what to cut from the SB in case..
I'll go and playtest it now, so maybe I'll make some last minute changes...

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill
1 Pithing Needle

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast

keys

09-05-2009, 07:45 PM

I would either cut the Trickbind or an EE to go down to 60. 21 lands works pretty well for me. You could drop an Island or a Volc for Factory or Wasteland #4.

J.V.

09-06-2009, 03:05 AM

In all honesty, I would cut the Needle, but if you are really heart set on it, then I would cut an E.E.

Tangle.Wire

09-07-2009, 06:29 AM

pippo84

09-07-2009, 12:30 PM

So, the tournament ended.. I placed 12 on 75..
First of, I have to say J.V. was right, needle was not really needed. I used it only once.. :rolleyes:
And J.V. was right also on 2 Daze. 2 was just fine, never wished to have 1 more, but I'm still not so sure..
21 lands? Dunno, seems 20 is the same even though I lost some games to mana screw..

Well, the list I played is a few posts above.

first round: Solidarity. Having Rebs in the board helped, but the really good thing is stifle and trickbind! Long games that I won just attacking with mishra's.
won 2-1

second round: Combo elevs. I lost the first match for not having counters in hand and the combo passed..
second round i win with firespout and Nought.
third round I lost because I misplayed!! WTF. I had nought, stifle, force in hand and counterbalance without top on the board. I knew he didn't have krosan grip in hand and played nought. Then he plays an elf that does quasali and kill nought so I lose. If I waited 1 more turn I would have had a blue card for Force of will and I would have won. Stupid misplay!!
lost 1-2

third round: pox. It was just really easy. I had counters and stifle-nought in both my opening hands.
won 2-0

fourth round: some aggro bant. I mulled both the matches and had only colorless lands. In 2 games I just managed to drop a goyf that got countered. There has been no match at all. WTF
lost 0-2

fifth round: zoo. Nice match, win the first round countering many things and going down with life. At the end of the match he had a 3/3 on the board and I was at 8 points left. I play nought and win.
second one, i lose having 1 island down and not finding other colorful mana sources.
Third game I just have to say firespout is really strong!!! Sweeped his board, landed countertop and from then on just 1 krosan grip passed on my counterbalance, but it was too late. In the meanwhile I already drew counters and the game has been really easy. I won beating with just mishra's.
won 2-1

sixth round: goblins. First round I start. Top, pass. He casts lackey. I look at my hand, stifle, dreadnought, force of will and no other blue card. Ok, lackey passes. Then I cast nought and win a real fast game.
second round he manages to fill the board. I lose to many goblins having few threats on my side.
third round again Firespout is MVP!! He playes vial, I play EE at 1. After destroying it I play Goyf and counter a few threats. He fills the board with goblins, I land Nought, then cast firespout and attack for the win.
won 2-1

Seventh round: aggro elves. We had an open grudge :wink: because we had already played against in a tournament months ago. At that time it was to enter top 8 and he won. I wanted revenge! :tongue:
first round he wins attacking with to many elves for me to stop.
Second round I sweep his board twice (I just love Firespout) and then land nought for the win.
third round I sweep his board and cast goyf. he then manages to get some elves on the board and casts natural order for progenitus. No counters, ouch! I then land nought. I get ten damage from progenitus and he left elves in defence. I attack with mishra, goyf and nought. He blocks and goes to 3 life. I had a lightning bolt in hand from ages and so I win.
won 2-1

So, overall I did 15 points and went 5-0-2. Unfortunately not enought for top 8, but it has been a really nice tournament and I'm quite happy with 12th out of 75.

The mainboard seems really solid, just cut needle to go to 60 cards, and still not sure about 2 Daze and 21 lands, but it isn't a major problem. The rest is optimal.
The sideboard? Perfect for the meta. Really fine. I just sided in crypt against pox for loam, but didn't need it.. Maybe I'll cut 1 crypt for 1 needle in the sideboard, but if I see dredge, with 3 crypts it's muche easier to win..

Thats all! :smile:

FoolofaTook

09-07-2009, 12:33 PM

Here's another clash: I know everyone favors Spell Snares but as some baseruption/countertop lists dont run them at all but still beeing successfull i thought why not cut the snares? the most cc2 spells we have to be afraid of are counterbalance, opponent standstills (only sometimes) and a bunch of cc2 creatures so by adding lightning bolt to the mainboard we get answers to the most creature drops unless the tarmogoyf but by running 4 goofy too + dreadnoughts we dont have to be afraid of goofy that much.

Also i run trygon predator and explosives main so i have other solutions for the cc2 drops.

This is what Spell Snare handles that Lightning Bolt doesn't: Counterbalance, Qasali Pridemage + activate, Survival of the Fittest, Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, Standstill, Runed Halo, Price of Progress, Counterspell, Umezawa's Jitte, Fire/Ice, etc. It handles a lot of the things that will kill you.

pippo84

09-07-2009, 01:14 PM

What, cut counters??
No way!! If I could I'll also play Counterspell (mmm... maybe instead of daze..). I just love to have counters. Removal is fine, but Lightning Bolt is fine in the Sideboard. Or if you want it cut something else, but not counters!
Btw, a few pages before was my list with Lightning Bolt MD and also Spell snare MD..

keys

09-07-2009, 04:20 PM

I still think Rich Shay's build (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29169) from SCG5k is the best list packing maindeck burn. The 1-of Ponder could be the 4th CB, but cantrip #5 comes in handy.

Daze really is > Spell Snare in pretty much any deck that isn't Landstill, IMHO. Free counters are that good.

J.V.

09-07-2009, 10:36 PM

So, the tournament ended.. I placed 12 on 75..
First of, I have to say J.V. was right, needle was not really needed. I used it only once.. :rolleyes:
And J.V. was right also on 2 Daze. 2 was just fine, never wished to have 1 more, but I'm still not so sure..

Well first off, congrats on the strong finish, well done! Also just gonna throw it out there, my posts are all based on excessive testing unless I say otherwise :wink: [example, my first list with the Bolt board was basically an "eh fuck it, I haven't tested this but I'm gonna give it a try at GP:Boston"]
------------
Oh and just to nit-pick, you went 5-2-0, 5-0-2 would be 17 points (two draws)

------------
On the topic of cutting spell snares, you are seriously underestimating their purpose they counter the two most important cards in the format Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf (in that order) everthing else is just an added bonus, I would go up to 4 if I could make room for it (I've actually considered going down to 1 Daze for it...) anyways, Lightning bolt doesn't deal with Counterbalance and very rarely deals with Goyf so as far as I'm concerned Lightning Bolt will remain in the board until they add the oracle text counter target CB or Goyf.
------------
As for counterspell, I've tested with counterspell and while not being terrible I don't recommend it, UU can be a liability and It honestly is two slow for the format, the only reason Landstill can support it is because they run so many sweepers, but even they are cutting CS or reducing it...

Tangle.Wire

09-08-2009, 03:26 AM

Well first off, congrats on the strong finish, well done! Also just gonna throw it out there, my posts are all based on excessive testing unless I say otherwise :wink: [example, my first list with the Bolt board was basically an "eh fuck it, I haven't tested this but I'm gonna give it a try at GP:Boston"]
------------
Oh and just to nit-pick, you went 5-2-0, 5-0-2 would be 17 points (two draws)

------------
On the topic of cutting spell snares, you are seriously underestimating their purpose they counter the two most important cards in the format Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf (in that order) everthing else is just an added bonus, I would go up to 4 if I could make room for it (I've actually considered going down to 1 Daze for it...) anyways, Lightning bolt doesn't deal with Counterbalance and very rarely deals with Goyf so as far as I'm concerned Lightning Bolt will remain in the board until they add the oracle text counter target CB or Goyf.
------------
As for counterspell, I've tested with counterspell and while not being terrible I don't recommend it, UU can be a liability and It honestly is two slow for the format, the only reason Landstill can support it is because they run so many sweepers, but even they are cutting CS or reducing it...

I agree, no question spell snare is awesome but i think lightning bolt is to weak for the sideboard but if we pack 2 in the mainboard i feel like having a third bolt or either pack 2 fire//ice instead of the bolts as u want to burn critters.

I also agree that counterspell is quiet to slow for this deck.

Wasteland

09-08-2009, 05:05 AM

Lightning Bolt is for sure not to "weak" for the SB...
While not being a StoP, it is great in exactly the MU's where you need it: Zoo / Merfolk / Goblins + its superb vs decks like Sui / random aggro like white weenie etc. ...
Even vs. the Nassif.dec i would board them in (together with the red blasts) since it handles Confidants (which is the most annoying card ever vs. dreadstill) / Predator / Sower of temptation.
I've tested the bolts vs. all theese MU's now and they really help alot (still running the straight UR-List from Hannigan which i estimate to be a bit better then any list running goyfs cause of the manabase / the option to play blood moons in the SB)

So this is the build i'm going to play in Milano this WE:

//Lands:
4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
4x mishra's factory
3x wasteland
5x island
3x volcanic island

//Creatures:
4x phyrexian dreadnought
3x trinket mage

//Other spells (blue):
4x brainstorm
4x stifle
2x trickbind
4x daze
4x standstill
4x force of will
3x counterbalance
3x spell snare

//Other artifacts:
2x sensei's divining top
1x engineered explosives
1x crucible of worlds

//SB:
2x blue elemental blast
3x red elemental blast
3x lightning bolt
2x pyroclasm
2x blood moon
1x engineered explosives
2x relic of progenitus

There still remains the possibility of cutting a standstill / daze / the crucible for an additional c-balance and a top of course.

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

OurSerratedDust

09-08-2009, 10:15 AM

How might the manabases of Ur and Urg Dreadstill be affected by the new enemy duals?

jazzykat

09-08-2009, 10:41 AM

How might the manabases of Ur and Urg Dreadstill be affected by the new enemy duals?

The obvious answer is to swap in on color fetches for non-on color although I don't know if you gain that much from that. It may go even further than that, I suppose you can play a basic forest or basic mountain if you really care to at this point.

pippo84

09-08-2009, 11:28 AM

Well, since enemy fetches have been confirmed I think UGR will swap to on color fetches, but I'm not sure if this will change a lot of things. Probably i'll add 1 basic forest and cut a dual. Don't think I'll care of a basic mmountain btw.. Thoughts?
And for the Lightning Bolt discussion: first of they are better than Fire/Ice, confirmed. That 1 more damage is really important and also cost 1 mana less. Also I think 3 in the sideboard are really ok. We don't have enought space for them in mainboard and are really useful only against certain Mu's.

Btw, just changed my list after the tournament. Pithing Needle goes Sideboard cutting 1 Tormod's Crypt. Just a small change..
Do you agree of the 1-1 Tormod-Relic split or since we run goyf do you prefer 2 tormods? I run a split because of Needle.. :mad:

J.V.

09-08-2009, 11:54 AM

I agree, no question spell snare is awesome but i think lightning bolt is to weak for the sideboard but if we pack 2 in the mainboard i feel like having a third bolt or either pack 2 fire//ice instead of the bolts as u want to burn critters.

Being Someone who has now tested both excessively, I would have to say this is 100% inaccurate, Bolt may be the strongest card in the Sideboard (maybe second to Firespout) As Marius said, Bolt is incredible in the Zoo, Merfolk, Goblin, Insert Bad Aggro deck here matchups which is what you want to be able to improve the most post board since if your not beating Aggro Control already then your playing poorly...
------------------------
As for the Enemy Fetchlands, I may be switching out 3 fetches for 3 Misty Rainforest if testing shows that a basic forest helps the deck, but There is a decent chance I won't even play one since Dreadstill always wants UU available to cast Counterbalance and I already run 7 non-U sources... The only way I'll be adding U/G fetches and Forest is if I cut a Mishra's Factory, but we'll see.

FoolofaTook

09-08-2009, 01:14 PM

For Ur Dreadstill I see little impact based on enemy fetches. I'm certainly not planning to put a basic mountain in the mix, given that 14 blue sources already causes difficulty occasionally.

The one potential advantage that I can see is that I could play fewer of any individual fetchland, thus making my opening plays a little bit harder to decode now and then. 2x Polluted Delta and 1 each of the other blue fetchlands instead of 3x Polluted Delta and 2x Flooded Strand would be marginally more valuable to have in the deck. I won't buy the lands just to do that but if I got my hands on them some other way I'd probably make the switch.

whienot

09-08-2009, 02:12 PM

I'm testing this manabase:

4 u/g fetch
2 delta/strand
3 M. Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Forest

Having 4 rainforests gives additional flexibility when fetching basics.

Side thought - Will off color fetches help Pithing Needle? We now have the ability(if you choose to go with both off color fetches) to name on color fetches with the needle without hurting ourselves.

Edit: The new fetches may make Pithing Needle much more annoying to play against also.

Wasteland

09-08-2009, 02:12 PM

Well, since theese are quite old now:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10651&page=86

I'm going to play 4 times the UR Fetchland for pimp reasons, if the picture is nice (only cause many U cards have some R in them - Force / C-balance / Brainstorm...) :cool:

Tangle.Wire

09-09-2009, 08:12 AM

Here is the list I played:
Lands:21
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

Creatures:9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:30
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Daze
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:15
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pithing Needle

Post Tournament Conclusions:
The Main deck is damn near optimal, The only change that I keep going back an forth between is cutting a Factory for a 3rd Flooded Strand, or Leaving the 4th Factory in, I'm not entirely sure yet.

As for the sideboard, Lightning Bolt was UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE! It was excellent against Zoo and Merfolk.

Pithing Needle on the other hand was extremely underwhelming. I'm not sure what those two slots are going to be, they may go back to being Graveyard hate, but as I stated earlier, I'm not sure they're necessary.

Some days ago but J.V how are you boarding so far if you board against aggro/Zoo/Merfolk etc? is this the current build you're playing?

J.V.

09-09-2009, 10:48 AM

It's very close to my current build, I cut the 2 Pithing Needle from the board for 1 Relic of Progenitus and 1 Tormod's Crypt since Ichorid is seeing more play after GenCon.

My current sideboaring strategy is as follows:
Merfolk:
On the Play:
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
-4 Force of Will
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
On the Draw:
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Firespout
-3 Standstill
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Counterbalance

Zoo:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Daze
-1 Trickbind
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Spell Snare
+4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Firespout

FoolofaTook

09-09-2009, 11:13 AM

Tangle.Wire

09-09-2009, 12:30 PM

Got a question on the sideboard on the play: does Aether Vial not worry you with Force of Will boarded out? I see what you're trying to do there however I'd be leery of going naked against a vial and 2x Daze isn't much protection there.

I can say that i board out standstills too if i board against aggro, so vial isnt as much annoying with bolts+firespouts (against fish also pyroblasts).

FoolofaTook

09-09-2009, 01:18 PM

I completely understand boarding out Standstill. I take it out for Firespout or Blood Moon or Krosan Grip + Pithing Needle fairly often. In fact Standstill is the spell that is boarded out most often in my matches.

J.V.

09-09-2009, 03:09 PM

My Logic behind this is that with the exception of Turn 1 Vial there are literally zero cards in Merfolk that require a FOW and the Merfolk match-up is very tempo oriented so the 2 for 1ing of FOW is actually relevant, also you are bringing in so many non blue cards while taking out blue cards that you greatly weaken FOW's blue count, this forces you to pitch cards you would otherwise not pitch in too many situations along with making Force of Will sometimes a Deadcard in your hand since you run so many non blue cards... Another thing to consider is that you are bringing in so much spot removal against them that sure they may have an active vial which means they can get guys into play, but it by no means says they can keep guys in Play. At this point they can waste their counters to protect their creatures, and you just Drop a Dreadnought and win.

pippo84

09-09-2009, 03:09 PM

@ J.V. Have you decided between the 4th mishra and the 3rd flooded strand?
I actually play 3 strands because I don't want too many uncolored mana sources..

J.V.

09-09-2009, 03:12 PM

@ J.V. Have you decided between the 4th mishra and the 3rd flooded strand?
I actually play 3 strands because I don't want too many uncolored mana sources..
I've been going back and forth, honestly my results have been basically a wash... I'm not really convinced that either is better than the other, I'd take a look at your meta and base it on that. One thing I will say is that if you see a lot of Landstill play the 4 Factory's...

FoolofaTook

09-09-2009, 04:29 PM

@J.V. - Thanks for the clarification.

Do you find Merfolk to be a bad matchup at this point? Game one I don't like it at all but after the Firespouts come in it really improves a lot. Really the only thing that scares me after they're in is Aether Vial, which is why I was asking.

I tune out -3 Standstill, -3 Daze (on the draw)/-3 Spell Snare (on the play) and -1 Fact or Fiction (no 4-bombs for CB to stop and too slow to impact) and bring in +3 Firespout, +2 Red Elemental Blast and +2 Pyroblast. That swings the match to me pretty easily.

J.V.

09-09-2009, 04:34 PM

pippo84

09-09-2009, 06:25 PM

FoolofaTook

09-09-2009, 06:34 PM

The merfolk MU is quite tough preboard. You can go lucky with a fast Dreadnought and win, but it's probably 60-40 in their favour.
Postboard it's much easier, firespout, reb and lightning bolt together wreck them and it's in our favour.

Every one plays 21 lands in this deck. I started with 20, but now I'm also playing 21. Do you think it makes a big difference or why not 20 and 1 more slot? I personally haven't found much difference, but I'll stick with 21..

Merfolk is tougher than 40/60 game one. I've won a game one here and there off of a fast nought but I expect to lose game one. After sideboarding it's a good matchup though and I think I win it maybe 60% overall even with the lousy game ones. I play Ur though, so no goyf. That makes a difference.

21 lands is necessary for consistency. Going to 20 either means 13 blue sources or only 3 Mishra's and both of those are iffy for me. I'm actually running 22 land right now, but I consider the Academy Ruins to be a spell not a land.

Tangle.Wire

09-10-2009, 04:02 AM

By setting the free mainboard slots that can be changed to 1-2 did anyone ever try/think about a guided passage? as it seems not that unplayable to me and the effekt is pretty nice.

pippo84

09-10-2009, 07:59 AM

21 lands is necessary for consistency. Going to 20 either means 13 blue sources or only 3 Mishra's and both of those are iffy for me. I'm actually running 22 land right now, but I consider the Academy Ruins to be a spell not a land.

Lol, atm I'm playing 21 lands and 3 mishra's and it looks fine to me having only 6 non U sources.

Guided Passage? URG? Opponent searches for 1 creature, 1 land and 1 other spell and then? If I could chose maybe, but if opponent choses, no way! And to difficult to cast.
If you want something similar play loam or better crucible and intuition. So you can go with wasteland recursion or search the missing combo parts of dreadnought-stifle.

Tangle.Wire

09-10-2009, 08:02 AM

Lol, atm I'm playing 21 lands and 3 mishra's and it looks fine to me having only 6 non U sources.

I also like the base nearly playing everything 3:

3 trops
3 volc
3 island
3 mishra
3 waste
3 delta
3 strand

Shimi

09-10-2009, 06:01 PM

I also like the base nearly playing everything 3:

3 trops
3 volc
3 island
3 mishra
3 waste
3 delta
3 strand

Me too , but with new enemy fetchs i'm considering cutting a tropical for an forest and running 4 U/G and 2 U/R fetchs.
With 3 standstills i don't see any reason to go for 4 mishra's unless you are playing UR version.

pippo84

09-10-2009, 06:21 PM

Me too , but with new enemy fetchs i'm considering cutting a tropical for an forest and running 4 U/G and 2 U/R fetchs.
With 3 standstills i don't see any reason to go for 4 mishra's unless you are playing UR version.

I play the same mana base as Tangle.Wire and also agree with Shimi. With 3 standstills 3 mishra's look fine to me.
Probably with the new fetches I'll run 3 UG and 3 UR and cut 1 Tropical for a basic forest. Not sure about this thought. And probably I won't play 1 basic mountain, but still I have to think about it. I don't like having too many non U sources..

godryk

09-12-2009, 08:48 AM

Hi! I'm considering running Dreadstill again because I'm getting bored of playing Baseruption decks. I'm testing the deck once more. Talking abour some matchups, I'm not very concerned about aggro decks as CB+Goyf+Nought and Bolt+Firespout coming from the side makes many of these matchups pretty affordable. What I'm more concerned about are the Tempo Threshold decks and any other kind of tempo Fish decks very popular in my meta, which punish you hard for card disadvantage and manabase weaknesses. However I see this like a 50/50 matchup depending mainly on player's skills.

I've done a quick research in the last few months posts and haven't found many info on this topic. Could someone please comment his thoughts on the Tempo Threshold matchup and SB strategies?

FoolofaTook

09-12-2009, 12:21 PM

J.V.

09-12-2009, 12:32 PM

Mike's analysis of the matchup is accurate, but It being a good matchup isn't limited to the Ur List As Mike said CB/T is gg, but you can also play the tempo game against them very effectively and a resolved Standstill is GG. Another think is the have almost know way to remove a Dreadnought, so if you can force one through 9/10 your going to win.

FoolofaTook

09-12-2009, 01:05 PM

I really like the Ur matchup. I haven't played Ugr so I'll defer to Tom and Rodney on that one because they have a lot more experience playing the deck against good Tempo Threshold players.

One nice thing about the Ur matchup is that Submerge is pretty useless against Dreadnoughts.

I'm trying really hard to shore up the Landstill matchup at this point because I think any deck that can get favorable matchups against Landstill, Tempo Threshold, Merfolk and storm combo is probably the DTB in the meta. So far the last three are very manageable to favorable and Landstill is the holdout at this point.

pippo84

09-12-2009, 09:29 PM

I'm trying really hard to shore up the Landstill matchup at this point because I think any deck that can get favorable matchups against Landstill, Tempo Threshold, Merfolk and storm combo is probably the DTB in the meta. So far the last three are very manageable to favorable and Landstill is the holdout at this point.

Agreed. I don't find Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh a problem, it's dreadnought win or CB/Top win. Storm combo is an automatic win, with Stifle, Trickbind, CB and other counters.. Merfolk you'll likely to lose the first match, but are favoured the other two. And landstill? Tought but playable. In their favour, pre and post board I think.

FoolofaTook

09-13-2009, 12:41 AM

Agreed. I don't find Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh a problem, it's dreadnought win or CB/Top win. Storm combo is an automatic win, with Stifle, Trickbind, CB and other counters.. Merfolk you'll likely to lose the first match, but are favoured the other two. And landstill? Tought but playable. In their favour, pre and post board I think.

It's the 4-bombs. Adding Elspeth to that deck really made it very tough. I'm experimenting with Fact or Fiction main deck just to have a 4cc spell to get on top to keep her off the board. So far it's worked some and not worked some.

Can anybody think of a better 4cc to have as a 1-of or 2-of just to have the option to control her with CBTop?

Carabas

09-13-2009, 01:16 AM

It's the 4-bombs. Adding Elspeth to that deck really made it very tough. I'm experimenting with Fact or Fiction main deck just to have a 4cc spell to get on top to keep her off the board. So far it's worked some and not worked some.

Can anybody think of a better 4cc to have as a 1-of or 2-of just to have the option to control her with CBTop?

Cryptic Command?
Fire/Ice?

OneBigSquirrelGod

09-13-2009, 01:20 AM

Cryptic Command?
Fire/Ice?

Fire/Ice's Converted mana cost when revealed to C-Balance is 2. A judge ruled that against me at GP Chicago (even though I did it rounds 1-5, they caught on in round 6 when trying to counter a Moat).

J.V.

09-13-2009, 10:54 AM

Actually fire/ice is 2 converted mana costs of two when revealed by anything. That is why you take 4 from Bob but counter things with converted mana cost of 2 with counterbalance, it is also why you can spell snare Fire or Ice.

FoolofaTook

09-13-2009, 11:33 AM

Cryptic Command is an interesting idea. It has enough applicability to be not a dead draw at any point after the early mid game. I think I'll give it a try.

pippo84

09-13-2009, 12:43 PM

Cryptic Command is an interesting idea. It has enough applicability to be not a dead draw at any point after the early mid game. I think I'll give it a try.

As a 1-2 of? And what will you cut for it? It may be an interesting idea, let us know how testing goes. I'm sceptic about the mana requirements though..

Tangle.Wire

09-13-2009, 12:49 PM

So again i went 4:3 on the Tourney today, and as i always come back to "mainstream" lists i did it again and feeld like they failed on the parts i thought they would, i also lost merfolk which was kinda weird after boarding 3 firespout and 3 pyroblast but thats typical for me to lose the "ok" matchups.

I played this list:

3 Dreadnought
4 Goofy
2 Trinkets

2 explosives
4 counterbalance
3 d. top
3 spell snare
2 daze
2 lightning bolt
4 stifle
2 standstill
4 force of will
4 brainstorm

21 Lands as posted before.

Sideboard:

2 Trygon predator
3 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
3 submerge
3 firespout
2 relic of progenitus

For the Board i fell in love with submerge, they where amasing, i boarded em every game beside merfolk (elves,survival,baseruption,pikula?GWB) also i won a game as i submerged my own trygon predator :tongue:

The Predators where amasing too, they worked better than a krosan grip on the games i had, a grip wouldn't help me in any game even on those where they got a counterbalance.

All in all i still got the feeling that Ponder would be amasing to this deck even paired with standstills as standstill gave me to much crap i just stucked on with my top, also i really never played any trinket mage as 3 dreadnoughts get drawn very smooth without mages, same for the explosives aslong there remain 2 in the maindeck.

Atog

09-13-2009, 01:32 PM

keys

09-13-2009, 02:53 PM

Tormod's Crypt is better than Relic in this deck. Grave hate is for one thing only, Ichorid, and 75% of the time Goyf will be your beater (noughts normally pitched to remove bridges unless you get turn 2 stifle/nought) and Relic messes up that plan. Also, Crypt can be popped the same turn Trinket Mage hits the table with only 3 land, whereas Relic will take 5. That's a huge distinction.

pippo84

09-13-2009, 05:58 PM

That's not right. You want to play 3rd Standstill and 3rd trinket mage / trickbind. Didn't you find often you in situation where you had nought but no stifle / trickbind?

Agreed. 3 Standstill is necessary, there's a reason why the deck is called DreadStill.. Ages ago I cut them, but soon after I started playing them in the deck. Really strong, 3 needed.
Also 1 Trickbind is useful. The correct usage of Dreadnought-stifle effects is 4-6 or 3-5 in my opinion. Dreadnought is a dead card without stifle in hand, so you really want to see them and stifle is also used in thousands of other cases. I run 3 Noughts, but if I had space in the MD I would be really happy to add the second trickbind..

As for Crypt vs Relic I currently run a split of the 2 (1-1) because of pithing needle but yes, with goyf around and no mana requirements Crypt is slightly better.

FoolofaTook

09-13-2009, 06:00 PM

As a 1-2 of? And what will you cut for it? It may be an interesting idea, let us know how testing goes. I'm sceptic about the mana requirements though..

I'll test it as a 1-of, replacing the Fact or Fiction that I was trying already. I don't care about the UUU in the cost because I almost always have that down by the time I'd be casting it anyway. Against the decks that worry me the most it's not speed that bothers me it's the ability to take overwhelming control of the game with threats that I only have a limited number of ways to counter and no way to remove after the fact, like Elspeth.

Cryptic Command actually deals with Elspeth in 3 different ways: as a 4cc I can flip with Counterbalance, as a hard counter that says no, and as bounce for when she's already landed and I need to get her off the board. That's better than Fact or Fiction which only serves the first purpose usually.

What I cut to put Fact or Fiction in was the 4th Standstill. I'm not regretting that choice, just not happy with the overall effectiveness of Fact or Fiction.

pippo84

09-13-2009, 06:08 PM

In my UGR list the way I deal with planeswalkers is counters if I can and if they land I stick a Pithing Needle on them poast board.
Cryptic Command on the other way seems very versitile and solid so give it a try!

J.V.

09-13-2009, 06:08 PM

Dreadstill top 8'd the SCG Charlotte 5k.

pippo84

09-13-2009, 06:11 PM

Dreadstill top 8'd the SCG Charlotte 5k.

Good Job! What's the list played, UR or UGR or some other splash?

J.V.

09-13-2009, 06:36 PM

Good Job! What's the list played, UR or UGR or some other splash?

I'm not sure.
Edit:Ur Dreadstill

Tangle.Wire

09-14-2009, 06:15 AM

Some kind of report from my testings yesterday: As i said after my 4:3 "success" i had the feeling of changing some stuff of my mainboard and tried some games on apprentice (yes i dont usw mws). I wanted to test out some other/more draw and tested with following cards:

thirst for knowledge
+1 trinket mage (set to 3)
3/+1 Standstill
Ponder
Fact or Fiction

I only tested 2-3 games (till 2 wins for one side each game) against Baseruption, UGW Countertop, Landstill, Elves and Survival.

I think a friend was right by recognizing that the Dreadstill builds don't run enough or even solid CC3 spells so i wanted to try the thirsts for knowledge but as i only could discard 2 cards or a second divining top for it i feld to risky with it, same for fact or fiction as it was just to expensive.

Noticed that Standstill isn't worse even if i wanted to cut it yesterday after the tournament i tried out if theres a difference between playing 3 or 4, as we can't play them to many times without playing full sets of factory/wastelands i think 3 is still the correct choice, i had many situation i only could pitch the standstill into force of will cause other like the normal Landstill builds where you draw from one standstill into another we want to play spells 80% of the games where a standstill triggered for us. I think after the results from yesterday i feel like 4 top 4 brainstorm 3 standstill is the right way to dig through the library.

I also tested some other changes as i wanted to play the lightning bolts and some other removal on the mainboard, i also got addicted to trickbind as i never really needed it before i found out that focusing on drawing the trickbind is the save way to get the dreadnought on the table as my opponents always try to play around my stifle but never counter the nought.

After i played 2-4 Lightning bolts in the maindeck i really loved them as they also do very good against Baseruption/Countertop decks but i found no card that could be cut for a playset of the bolts (either in the sideboard) and most times i boarded them out for Submerges as those are awesome against every matchup i can play them. So i don't agree anymore to the plan of boarding Bolts as 4 slots are to much and every count lower than 4 doesn't really help as 1-2 burn spells are pretty random.

Last change i took on my mainboard where the trinket mages as i said some days before there where situations i could't usw them but about 90% all the time i got better things to play or just dont need the trinkets at all, i never have the problem beeing in a hurry to draw my dreadnoughts and also i had rar situations where trinket on explosives saved my day as it takes around 2-3 turns till the explosives does the job, i also never had to search for the diving tops which keeps me playing trinkets only for the explosives.

After long long time testing last night i came up with following build and i really feel familiar to it:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trickbind
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Senseis divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will

Lands

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island

Sideboard

4 Submerge
1 engineered explosives
3 pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Firespout
2 Threads of disloyality

For the Sideboard there where a few changes i took just in case of the matchups on the tournament i had and saw on the sidetables, for submerges i never wanna play less than 4 anymore, as every deck on legacy which runs green (belcher is dead) runs it for creatures like Zoo,Baseruption,Survival,ITF,Team America etc i almost thought of playing 1-2 on the mainboard at all ^^

The Ancient Grudge, Explosives and Grip on the board performed very good beside the Predator i almost play on the mainboard now cause only boarding grips was to simple as the opponent expects grips he will try to play around them as far as possible, but by playing predator,explosives,grudge and a grip i have a strong mix along to find solutions.
The threads of disloyality are placed for the control magic/sower i also tested but in most cases i wanted to steal quick and mostly its tarmogoyf,confidant some time the opposing dreadnought. I also would like to play the threads in the mainboard as the give me +2 CC3 spells and are quiet good on most matchups.

The Trygon Predators where as much amazing that i want to play them on the mainboard (the 2 trinket slots) as Predator wrecks the Baseruption/Countertop matchup also it removes more than one Artifact/Enchantment normally and as i know how good it is i won't play it randomly as it will catch counter/spot removal. I also like it as 2/3 flying beeing able to beat, thats why i cut 1 factory for the 4th wasteland.

As i never won against dredge (without having look 1-2 games) and didn't see much Loam decks the last tournaments i don't play graveyard removal anymore, i hope that Loam is a winable without the 2 slots of graveyard hate i had before just by locking loam with the counterbalance, if its not i wouldn't win with crypts/relics anyway. :rolleyes:

Wasteland

09-14-2009, 06:49 AM

Tangle.Wire

09-14-2009, 07:54 AM

So, i played at the Milano 285 man Legacy event with UR Dreadstill and ended 7:2 being 12. and taking 4 Bayous home (was unlucky in round 8 with 3 mishra's loosing vs. 1 spellstutter sprite cause of needle on mishra^^)
Perhaps i will post a report soon...
Greetz, Marius

What was the final build you played? I ordered 3 Blood moon today and wanted to know how good they are on the U/R list if we play wastes+factories.

pippo84

09-14-2009, 09:02 AM

Wasteland

09-14-2009, 12:29 PM

So the build was:

4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
4x mishra's factory
3x wasteland
5x island
3x volcanic island

//Creatures:
4x phyrexian dreadnought
3x trinket mage

//Other spells (blue):
4x brainstorm
4x stifle
2x trickbind
4x daze
4x standstill
4x force of will
3x counterbalance
3x spell snare

//Other artifacts:
2x sensei's divining top
1x engineered explosives
1x crucible of worlds

//SB:
2x blue elemental blast
3x red elemental blast
3x lightning bolt
2x pyroclasm
2x blood moon
1x engineered explosives
2x relic of progenitus

Having one rating-bye i did not have to play round 1.

Round 2: 5C-Zoo
My Opponent wins the Dice but did mulligan. He starts with Taiga Nacatl, Round 2 Goyf, which i could spellsnare but since i have Nought, Stifle Spell Snare and Force (no other blue card but only lands) in my hand, i let it resolve and play turn 2 Nought, Force-protected. My opponents puts another land into play and plays tribal flames, then scoops.
Game 2 he again has fast creatures before and my blind counterbalance does not hit a single time. I can handle all his creatures via bolts / blasts / spellsnare for goyf but die in round 9 or 10, not having found a trinket mage, nought OR top...
So i'm on the play in game 3, being able to bolt his 1. creature and playing a counterbalance and a standstill in the round after, which my opponents krosan grips (lol^^). Since he has only 3 duals in play and no creatures, blood moon wins. He discards 6 times having played 2 bolts that put me on 11 and then dies to my Nought.
=> 2:0

Round 3: Elfball
I win the dice but had to mulligan. My hand contained 4 lands (1mishra, 2blue, 1wasteland), Force and explosives but i did not want to mulligan again.
After all, the hand turned out to be great, as my opponent plays 1. turn Fyndhorn elves. I draw a Daze, say go and he puts his whole hand into play (5 elves + a Glimpse, that i counter). After Explosives kills 5 elves the game is over quite soon.
Game 2 he plays 1. round needle on trinket mage (wtf?) and says go. I play land, go, he answers with LLanowar elves, go. Eot i bolt them and put a Standstill over it. He has no other land drop and puts anoter Llanowar into play which i bolt again with the card fount in standstill. Counterbalance and turn 6 or 7 nought then wins that game.
=> 3:0

Round 4: UGR Faeries
I manage to get a blind counterbalance into play turn 3 without any creatures from my opponent but it does again not hit a single turn. In round 5 i play Nought, which he answers with a Spellstutter. I spell snare it but he has 1 more Sprite... I then loose the game to theese 2 Sprites and a Ninja of the deep hours. Dreadnought /stifle is to late, since i get it online at 2 live but he has 2 beaters.
Game 2 we have a Stifle / Wasteland War which leaves him with 3 Mishras and me with 3 blue / blue-red lands and a trinket mage in play. I find the Blood Moon and simply win.
Game 3 i'm terribly screwed and do not manage to get a red mana into play while he steals my trinket mage with a sower of temptation. I play counterbalance just to take his force from his hand and force his stifle on my finally drawn fetchland. Bad for me, that he has another stifle and so i die to Sower, my own trinket mage, a Spellstutter Sprite and a Mutavault having 2 Red Blasts, 2 Bolts and a Blood Moon in my hand...
=> 3:1

Round 5: Goblins
Game 1 i only see mountain and a wasteland from my opponent, then he scoops to a fast Dreadnought. Since theese 2 cards are enough for me to know he plays goblins, i board in bolts / blue blasts / pyroclasms but no blood moons, not having seen any non-red mana.
Game 2 he has a lackey which i cant handle but he brings only warchiefs / a shusher. I bolt the warchief since he has only 1 card in hand. in my 3. turn i waste his plateau, he floats white. 2. main Dreadnought ends the game.
=> 4:1

Round 6: RG Survival
Game 1 i spellsnare a survival, have a fast Standstill and my opponent looses then fast to a Nought, having only crappy creatures like birds / Rofellos.
Game 2 he gets his survival online while i have Counterbalance + top in play. He then survivals for a shusher and plays goblin welder. I play stifle+nought seeing 1 inkwell leviathan in his grave. But eot he survivals again and gets a platinum angel which i cant handle and so i loose this game.
Game 3 i win over a counterbalance keeping cc3 and 1 on it. It counters a Choke and a Krosan Grip while i manage not to let a survival enter the game. While my opponent is still on 4 Lands in round 10 or so, my finally drawn Nought ends the game.
=> 5:1

Round 7: Tempo-Threshold
Game 1 i keep hand with: Volcanic, Mishra, Nought, Stifle, Daze, Force, Daze. I play the Volcanic, he wastes, so i have to use the stifle. He forces my Stifle, i daze. Then i play toe volcanic again and he has another wasteland. After 3 round i have 1 blue and a mishra in play while he has 1 tropical and a mungo. But my opponent finds land after land and manages to get a goyf into play while i trade the factory for his mungo. Having still the nought and a trickbind in play i have 3 rounds to draw a land, which i do not, so i loose.
Game 2 i have a early relic that keeps his mungo on 1/1. Round 4 or so i play a crucible (did not board blood moons cause i saw a basic forest game 1) and shredder his manabase, while mungo is still 1/1 and Goyf 0/1 cause i sacced relic. In round 12 or so i have standstill, crucible + wasteland, counterbalance + top in play and i'm on 4 but my opponent has no lands in play. So i decide to break my own Standstill and play Nought with double stifle and force-backup. This is enough for this game and i win.
Game 3 he has a mungo and plays goyf which i spellsnare. I decided to board the blood moons in now and this wins in round 5, cause trinket mage on relic is enough for the mungo and a 2. goyf, that my opponent got into play. He scoops after i play a 2. trinket mage, bringing explosives while he has 6 "mountains" in play.
=> 6:1

Round 8: UBR Faeries:
If i had won this match now, i would have entered top8 since i had great oppscore and could draw in round 9.
But game 1, my opponent hast a ridiculous draw, bringing a tombstalker round 4 while i play nought round 5. He plays terminate on it (lol), i have Force for it but his last 2 cards are force+pitchcard...
Game 2 i draw ONLY lands and a single spellstutter sprite kills me while having quadrupel Mishra's Factory (1 got wasted) in play that are needled -.-
=> 6:2

Round 9: Ichorid:
I win the dice, have island go. My opponent plays City of Brass, go. Eot i play Brainstorm, find the nought to my stifle and play it round 2. Instantly my opponent scoops but i saw a dredger that fell off his hand. Game 2 it is again a massacre, i have a fast relic + a red blast for a maybe-breakthrough and the Nought goes all the way home in Rounc 5.
=> 7:2

As i said before, i was 12. at the end and took a playset Bayous home to Germany.
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

pippo84

09-14-2009, 01:20 PM

Congratz again Marius for the finish, the UR list seems very solid.

Nice report, just a question now..
Don't you miss the fourth Counterbalance and the third Top?
Or at least the third top, it seemed to me from your report that you tried several blind flips..

The Blood Moon seems really solid, I would love to test it, but I'm a bit reluctant to swap from UGR to UR, but probably I'll give it a try..

Wasteland

09-14-2009, 02:15 PM

Never missed the 4. CB but the 3. top would have been useful sometimes, yes

FoolofaTook

09-14-2009, 02:27 PM

Blood Moon just cripples so many decks at this point, and since it is a sideboard card it is hard for it to hurt you.

@Wasteland - How did the crucible feel to you in the deck? I added one to make the deck a little bit more control-ish and I love it when it shows up most of the time but I have a hard time finding it when I really want it. I've been trying to figure out whether it is too random to be really good and I should either double-down on it or take it out. I do like seeing it in my hand most of the time when I draw it though.

neckfire

09-14-2009, 04:24 PM

so i just got back from the scg legacy 5k in north carolina i unfortunaly only went X and 2 :( so i ended up 21 dammit i had game vs the top 8 but congrats to all who made it.see you all in philly rodney you had better be at that one i missed not being able to play you.

godryk

09-14-2009, 05:36 PM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29838

Here yo have the Dreadstill list that top8'ed at Charlotte. I assume "Engineered Plague" means "Engineered Explosives". How do you see the 22-land setup with Seat of the Synod and Academy Ruins?

And the random Mystical Tutor... I don't know.

The only thing I liked but I never found room for was Academy Ruins.

pippo84

09-14-2009, 06:12 PM

Mystical tutor is synergistic with counterbalance, it creates card quality but card disadvantage. Dunno, never tried it.
I tried Academy Ruins and liked very much, but since I don't want to many non U sources I cut it, but it's quite strong.
Seat of the Synod? Used to get it with Trinket Mage. Wtf? If I play trinket Mage I am most likely to have enought lands/blue sources.

Shimi

09-14-2009, 06:12 PM

@Wasteland - Congratulations with your 12th place.
Your Ur list seems very manabase estable so your could abuse from stifle + wastes + bloodmoon.So that's why you play 4 daze x 3 spellsnare?And what do you think about the new fetchs which able players to splash basic lands and ruin blood moon plans?
Also do you ever fell a lack of threats or 1 turn answers?
And how do you deal with an enemy CB/Top without KGrips?

neckfire

09-14-2009, 07:46 PM

FoolofaTook

09-14-2009, 07:48 PM

Im not sure if they meant it to be engineered plaugue or explosives i wathced the top 8 but he went up against the goyf sligh guy and got demolshed basically hosed by stifle and his seat of synod got blew up it was rather embaressing to watch.

He has no black mana in the deck and thus no way to play Engineered Plague. It had to be Engineered Explosives.

The other thing that makes no sense in that list is the 3x Leyline of the Void in the sidebar. I'm sorry but you cannot put a 3-of in a deck when you have no way to cast it and will have to mull to it to get it in play. Even a 4-of is extremely shaky in that situation but a 3-of is suicide.

neckfire

09-14-2009, 07:51 PM

yeah the deck he borrowed from a guy i met.i went to go watch him i just saw his decklist for the first time.the leylines look horriable.I Played against ichorid round 5 and beat them with relics and pithing needles..not to mention a very lucky t2 dreadnought.t1 needle t2 nought gg? lol it basically went like that.
oh and the mystical tutor i really dont agree with.and why do a tundra?why not a tropical island that way out of the board you can bring in kgrips.i can understand not wanting to use goyfs i dont use them but still dont use a land and then not have anyreason not to use it other than a ee for 3

Wasteland

09-15-2009, 04:45 AM

Well, i never lost to an enemy counterbalance having the spell snares and the dazes + mana disruption-plan...
For the new fetchlands: Wasteland will get a bit worse while stifles are getting stronger^^

pippo84

09-15-2009, 06:08 AM

For the new fetchlands: Wasteland will get a bit worse while stifles are getting stronger^^

Not sure about this. Wasteland will get a bit worse because people will put a few on color basics more, but stifle will stay the same. I don't think people will play more fetchlands, they will play the same amount, the only difference is that they will play the on color ones.

FoolofaTook

09-15-2009, 11:40 AM

Not sure about this. Wasteland will get a bit worse because people will put a few on color basics more, but stifle will stay the same. I don't think people will play more fetchlands, they will play the same amount, the only difference is that they will play the on color ones.

I think playing basics or not is kind of independent of the fetchlands at this point in most decks. 3 color decks tend to play basics to cover two of the colors if they have 16-17 colored lands in them. They play basics to cover one color if they have 14-15 colored lands.

Having a U/G fetchland isn't going to make a 3 color Ugr deck put a forest in if they only have 14-15 colored lands in the deck. That would make the chances of getting blue too low and the vulnerability that not having green causes is not worth that sacrifice. If that deck would put a forest in they'd already have put in a couple of wooded foothills to fetch trops, volcanics, and forests. That they haven't done that tells you that the cost of the Forest is too much to support in a deck with that few sources.

The enemy fetches might push people to include an extra land or two to make the manabase really solid in 3 color decks. That would be an interesting change, and you might see some basic forests in those lists.

pippo84

09-15-2009, 03:10 PM

I think playing basics or not is kind of independent of the fetchlands at this point in most decks. 3 color decks tend to play basics to cover two of the colors if they have 16-17 colored lands in them. They play basics to cover one color if they have 14-15 colored lands.

Having a U/G fetchland isn't going to make a 3 color Ugr deck put a forest in if they only have 14-15 colored lands in the deck. That would make the chances of getting blue too low and the vulnerability that not having green causes is not worth that sacrifice. If that deck would put a forest in they'd already have put in a couple of wooded foothills to fetch trops, volcanics, and forests. That they haven't done that tells you that the cost of the Forest is too much to support in a deck with that few sources.

The enemy fetches might push people to include an extra land or two to make the manabase really solid in 3 color decks. That would be an interesting change, and you might see some basic forests in those lists.

Great thought. I was actually thinking of adding 1 Basic Forest in my list, but after reading your post I'm not sure of it anymore. Even though I would like 1 Basic Forest, blue is the most important color. I'll try and see what happens with 1 tropical less and 1 forest in it's place. Do you think it will cause problems with the manabase?:mad:

J.V.

09-15-2009, 03:15 PM

Great thought. I was actually thinking of adding 1 Basic Forest in my list, but after reading your post I'm not sure of it anymore. Even though I would like 1 Basic Forest, blue is the most important color. I'll try and see what happens with 1 tropical less and 1 forest in it's place. Do you think it will cause problems with the manabase?:mad:

I've been doing a lot of testing with U/G fetches and basic forest, honestly my conclusion has been that I'm not going to be running one... having your U producing sources lower is worse in more situations, than the number of times having a basic forest is better.

pippo84

09-15-2009, 05:16 PM

In what place did you try the forest? Because I agree that if you play 3 wasteland, 4 mishra and a forest you don't have enought blue, but if you cut a mishra for the forest it seems ok to me.
Just my thoughts without testing, so they aren't worth anything. As soon as I'll test I'll let you know my opinion..

keys

09-15-2009, 06:02 PM

3 Mishra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

This seems manageable to me.

pippo84

09-15-2009, 06:21 PM

3 Mishra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

This seems manageable to me.

I would cut 1 Tropical for the 3rd basic island.

neckfire

09-15-2009, 06:23 PM

il be honost i probably will only add the Ur fetch and only if i cant finish getting the regular fetches i need.i have no need to run on color fetches.i will though mix it up some so that extirpate and needle on fetch gets worse.i mean it has never come up but its the same reason why i run pyroblast and reb so they cant mage it.i know its all being situational but should that problom ever arise i will not sit there with a sorry look on my face like oh shit what now.

pippo84

09-15-2009, 06:57 PM

Shimi

09-15-2009, 08:22 PM

I would cut 1 Tropical for the 3rd basic island.

I'm testing this and find it the best way to splash an basic forest.(3 islands rocks!)

About the Ur build what about playing 3 Volcanic + 1 Mountain which help in merfolk and goblin matchup(because they have alot of mana denial)??

At the weekend i'm going to play an tournament here in São Paulo-Brazil and I hope to bring in some new thoughts.

J.V.

09-15-2009, 08:34 PM

I think for the Ur Version I would run the following mana base post Zen:
Lands:21
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain

ForceofWill

09-15-2009, 08:38 PM

3 Mishra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

This seems manageable to me.

Playing a forest huts more than it helps. You don't need it like thresh because you can still cast dreadnought under a moon unlike threshold. Also you don't run many blue sources because of waste-factory so removing another basic island only leads to more mulligans and wasteland hurting even more than it should.

FoolofaTook

09-15-2009, 08:42 PM

godryk

09-16-2009, 03:25 AM

Agree. The basic mountain should be in the place of a Mishra. Or be the 22nd land. I like the basic mountan more than the forest. If you fetch a Tropic to get a Goyf in play and it gets resolved, then it doesn't matter if it gets wasted. But against Goblins or Merfolk, getting your Volc wasted can make loose games.

pippo84

09-16-2009, 06:36 AM

So most of you suggest not to put any other basic and leave the manabase as it is? I still have to try..

Wasteland

09-16-2009, 07:58 AM

I think too that you cannot afford to put a non-island-basic into the deck (since the UR version is mainboard MONO U)

FoolofaTook

09-16-2009, 11:15 AM

Maybe the on-color fetch lets the UR list play a mountain in the sideboard? I have like 11 red cards in the sideboard right now and the one thing that really worries me is that I can't keep a volcanic island in play when I really need to, like against Merfolk or Landstill.

I'm thinking maybe something like this:

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Trinket Mage

4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
3x Volcanic Island
6x Island
1x Academy Ruins

2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Standstill

4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell Snare

Sideboard

1x Mountain
3x Firespout
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus

Then the tune against Merfolk becomes -4 Force of Will (borrowing from J.V. because I think he's right on this one), -3 Standstill (too easy to get it pinned in your hand by Aether Vial and we don't care about blue count any more), -2 Spell Snare, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Mountain, +3 Firespout, +3 Lightning Bolt, +2 Red Elemental Blast and +2 Pyroblast. Loaded for bear, or fish as the case may be.

I'm thinking to try the 2nd Crucible at this point too and that makes Blood Moon not in the sideboard. Can't really afford both concepts, too much value put on a limited number of matchups.

J.V.

09-16-2009, 02:31 PM

Then the tune against Merfolk becomes -4 Force of Will (borrowing from J.V. because I think he's right on this one), -3 Standstill (too easy to get it pinned in your hand by Aether Vial and we don't care about blue count any more), -2 Spell Snare, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Mountain, +3 Firespout, +3 Lightning Bolt, +2 Red Elemental Blast and +2 Pyroblast. Loaded for bear, or fish as the case may be.

I'm thinking to try the 2nd Crucible at this point too and that makes Blood Moon not in the sideboard. Can't really afford both concepts, too much value put on a limited number of matchups.

Keep in mind I DON'T recommend pulling out FoW on the Draw... As for Mountain out of the board, this may be the correct way to approach this in the Ur Version, It definitely can't replace a Mishra's Factory as your threat count is already so low...

FoolofaTook

09-16-2009, 06:03 PM

Keep in mind I DON'T recommend pulling out FoW on the Draw... As for Mountain out of the board, this may be the correct way to approach this in the Ur Version, It definitely can't replace a Mishra's Factory as your threat count is already so low...

Yeah, I'd sideboard out 3x Daze and a Wasteland on the draw instead of the Forces. There's an argument for siding out 1 Wasteland and keeping 1 Spell Snare on the play also and I might do that also. The Wastelands are just there for Mutavaults basically and I don't know that I need 3 of them game 2 if I'm bringing a mountain in with all the red. Crucible stays in for the Mishra's in game 2 and siding out a Wasteland wouldn't make me want to pull it.

pippo84

09-18-2009, 07:24 AM

How are Crucibles working for you? I like them alot, but unfortunately I can't find room for them (neither in MB neither in SB).
Btw I beleive the correct number to play is 2..

FoolofaTook

09-18-2009, 10:52 AM

How are Crucibles working for you? I like them alot, but unfortunately I can't find room for them (neither in MB neither in SB).
Btw I beleive the correct number to play is 2..

They're working just fine. 1 was a bit too random so I'm trying 2 now. There are very few decks against which they have low impact and they really help in the control mirror. They do make the deck slow down sometimes and I have moments when I'm not sure if I'm better off working towards a turn 4 Dreadnought or a turn 4 Crucible. I guess I'll figure that out after I've played a bunch of games with them.

The anti-control subset in the deck, Crucible of Worlds, Wastelands, Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives, all feed off of each other and I'm trying to get that 8 card group to meld together well enough that it runs over decks like Landstill and Ultimate Walker. So far it's not quite there, which could be pilot error pretty easily.

Rood

09-19-2009, 02:04 AM

With the recent unbanning of Entomb it may be smart to start packing 3-4 dedicated slots of GY Hate in the SB. I personally, will be running 2-3 T-Crypt and one Relic.

Shimi

09-19-2009, 04:23 PM

With the recent unbanning of Entomb it may be smart to start packing 3-4 dedicated slots of GY Hate in the SB. I personally, will be running 2-3 T-Crypt and one Relic.

Or you can run some bounce in case they put a monster in play before you make your nought.

J.V.

09-20-2009, 12:10 PM

Or we could not care because it is going to have zero relevant effect on the metagame?

pippo84

09-20-2009, 07:26 PM

I'll just keep playing with 1 Relic of Progenitus and 1 Tormod's Crypt in the side. If I see that Dredge will grow a lot in mt meta I will change, but I think it will be fine with just 2 slots for graveyard hate.

Tangle.Wire

09-21-2009, 03:33 AM

Or we could not care because it is going to have zero relevant effect on the metagame?

Thats pretty true, the only archetype beside loam/dredge decks where entomb will be seen would be reanimator and how can reanimater become a harder matchup than dredge? daze,spell snare even counterbalance can effect a reanimator deck and at least we can play second turn dreadnought also. :wink:

-> On the weekend i'am going to play a bigger tournament ~around 80 people i think.

I am going to give the U/R list a chance as i wanted to try out some "different" sideboard tactiks. The mainboard will be the same as Wasteland played but i switched to rushing river instead of the second explosives.

The Sideboard will be:

4 Submerge
3 Firespout
2 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
3 Telepathy

As Submerge, Blast, Firespout and Blood moon are also known i'am currently testing telepathy against the control matchups for countertop and landstill.

Of course nr.1 argument will be that telepathy doesnt really effect the board, but finding it beside the own countertop lock it really cracks the opponents minds, it makes so much difference when its always the thought "could he have another daze or force?" Turning those situations into "i know what you got" serves a straight strategy support on the matchups where it comes down to sneak arround the opponents counters.
I also had many situations on the test games where i had telepathy just to know if i drop my dreadnought he won't be able to do things i can't handle.

I tested most games against the nassif baseruption, ugw countertop, landstill u/w and u/w/b and can ThreshThreshThresh (but it wasnt good against)

Sideboarded most of the time:

- 4 Standstill
- 1 Crucible
+ 3 Telepathy
+2 Blood Moon

Beside the normal changes i had on different matches bringing in additional blasts, firesouts..

ForceofWill

09-21-2009, 05:51 AM

Or we could not care because it is going to have zero relevant effect on the metagame?

qft

I doubt entomb will even be played in ichorid or loam and who cares about reanimator that deck is and will forever be bad. A new combo involving entomb would have to come out before it would be played in an actual good deck.

J.V.

09-21-2009, 03:18 PM

The Sideboard will be:

4 Submerge
3 Firespout
2 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
3 Telepathy

As Submerge, Blast, Firespout and Blood moon are also known i'am currently testing telepathy against the control matchups for countertop and landstill.

Of course nr.1 argument will be that telepathy doesnt really effect the board, but finding it beside the own countertop lock it really cracks the opponents minds, it makes so much difference when its always the thought "could he have another daze or force?" Turning those situations into "i know what you got" serves a straight strategy support on the matchups where it comes down to sneak arround the opponents counters.
I also had many situations on the test games where i had telepathy just to know if i drop my dreadnought he won't be able to do things i can't handle.

I tested most games against the nassif baseruption, ugw countertop, landstill u/w and u/w/b and can ThreshThreshThresh (but it wasnt good against)

Sideboarded most of the time:

- 4 Standstill
- 1 Crucible
+ 3 Telepathy
+2 Blood Moon

Beside the normal changes i had on different matches bringing in additional blasts, firesouts..

If your boarding out Standstill against Baseruption and Threshold YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG a resolved Standstill against either is almost always gg.

Shimi

09-21-2009, 06:07 PM

If your boarding out Standstill against Baseruption and Threshold YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG a resolved Standstill against either is almost always gg.

Totally agree.And i know you want to test telepaty BUT some relic+tormod's will increase your chances in Ur build against Goyf and mongose.

pippo84

09-21-2009, 06:35 PM

Telepathy looks like a good card, but I never felt like I wanted to use it. And I think 2 SB slots for GY hate are needed.
Anyways, do you think that some of the new Zendikar cards that have been showed could be useful for us?

J.V.

09-21-2009, 06:49 PM

Tangle.Wire

09-22-2009, 04:29 AM

I dont board any graveyard hate anymore, against dredge i also lose if i play 4 relic/crypt and for tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh i should have enought to have a fair chance without the graveyard hate. For the Telepathy i just boarded it for the standstills for testing but i'll change it to 2 telepathy maybe to add another explosives so the 2 telepathy will be added in addition to the standstills.

pippo84

09-22-2009, 01:29 PM

Seems I'm still having Problems against Landstill with my UGR build.. Suggestions?

Tangle.Wire

09-22-2009, 02:29 PM

Seems I'm still having Problems against Landstill with my UGR build.. Suggestions?

yeah telepathy :smile: i am serious its so good on control matchups and against landstill i normally board out the standstills as they can use it better than we can with our deck.

The really best opportunity that u get from telepathy here is that you know when to use your counter+when to play own spells. It saved me a lot of dazes or spell snares as i knew that they would handle it and could use them for other situations. The bad thing is that telepathy doesnt handle threats itself but i really love the card by now as it totally supports the countertop strategy.

pippo84

09-22-2009, 02:41 PM

@tangle: I board out Daze against landstill for Reb..
And also standstill for krosan..
But it's always a long and difficult match.,

Tangle.Wire

09-22-2009, 02:53 PM

@tangle: I board out Daze against landstill for Reb..
And also standstill for krosan..
But it's always a long and difficult match.,

Yes thats why i dont want to play standstill against landstill :ugly: by playing trickbind and for myself also the force,snare,countertop,pyroblasts postboard we're able to play a bit more aggro as landstill will win the game by its lategame bombs.

I think you will find 2-3 slots for a telepathy, if you got 1-2 days for testing it, give it a try as landstill got so many threats its awesome to know what they have in Hand and what they could get.

If its possible for you to try it out before the tournament just do it, i got a tournament on sunday and i already stay at the 3 telepathy as 2 seemed to be to less to drop it fast. I will run the UR list with it but it will still be same strategy like ugr just played kinda different. :rolleyes:

keys

09-23-2009, 02:23 AM

Tangle.Wire

09-23-2009, 05:31 AM

What are your guys' strategies against Eva Green?

Discard wrecks the 2-card combos, LD can cut you off either color, Snuff Out and Pulse are easy answers to Nought, and Tombstalker is impossible to kill outside of double bolt. Choke and Grip from the board don't make things easier.:eek:

Bolts, Sower, and Divert are good SB options but don't seem to salvage it. Do you guys board out 1-2 noughts and standstills?

Thats why i play submerge over lightning bolt, the burn doesnt handle fat threats like goofy and stalker. Control magic/Sower are to expensive for most situations. Against discard we only can try to drop the countertop pieces to save spells in the future..

J.V.

09-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Also this is another match up were Standstill should not be boarded out... It completely wrecks them.

FoolofaTook

09-23-2009, 10:51 AM

Also this is another match up were Standstill should not be boarded out... It completely wrecks them.

What matchups would you board Standstill out on? I'd be curious about Rood's answer also.

I generally take it out only when I think that it's going to be a double-edged sword in my hand, because the opponent can play under a Standstill as well as I can.

Tangle.Wire

09-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Also this is another match up were Standstill should not be boarded out... It completely wrecks them.

especially on discard matchup as decks with massive discard are mostly mono black or two colored but normally never have the speed to beat you up after they broke the standstill. I personal didn't drop any standstills against Eva Green or maybe the BWG control decks which look pretty similar but i wouldn't board out landstill on any control deck which doesn't play manlands as we can win those games with factories+standstill too.

J.V.

09-23-2009, 03:00 PM

What matchups would you board Standstill out on? I'd be curious about Rood's answer also.

I generally take it out only when I think that it's going to be a double-edged sword in my hand, because the opponent can play under a Standstill as well as I can.

Standstill comes out in the Mirror, Against Landstill, Against Goblins, and against Merfolk.
@Tangle.Wire I agree 100% on your reasoning to leave it in against Discard.dec

pippo84

09-23-2009, 03:06 PM

I also board out Standstill against my friend's Poxless Deck because he plays better than us under it..

J.V.

09-23-2009, 03:11 PM

Well I'm talking about in general not really the random Rogue deck you'll see once in a great way, just use your best judgment in those match ups.

pippo84

09-23-2009, 03:21 PM

J.V.

09-23-2009, 03:40 PM

It's not really a rogue deck. It's a BG Pox with tons of removal.. It's simply a better version of Pox Decks..
But yes, in most MU's if you stick a standstill it's usually game..
Btw what do you usually board agains Faeries? I find it an easy MU though..

Honestly I haven't played against Faeries enough to have a boarding strategy, I usually just do uncommon match ups like that on the fly.

Tangle.Wire

09-23-2009, 03:47 PM

@J.V did u had a chance to test against Ultimate Walker? i saw a "friend" playing it last tournament but don't know the results of his games. Ultimate Walker is known as beating Landstill and other Meta Decks by playing without the typical spells and got a lot of threats we can't handle without winning by a dreadnought. I think focus on the countertop lock is useless here, but they also can handle dreadnoughts pretty good, maybe Standstill can help here?

J.V.

09-23-2009, 04:03 PM

Standstill is good in the match up but counterbalance actually isn't terrible either its not by any means going to lock them out of the game, but it does provide enough protection for Dreadnought for you to win.

Shimi

09-23-2009, 06:18 PM

What are your guys' strategies against Eva Green?

I have an EvaGreen with White(which my friend plays) and I play many times agains it.It is an unfavorable MU like 65% for them.
If you are playing Ur with blood moon you could go for that.In both versions ( UGr and Ur) I go for standstill or a CB protecting nought and a stifle effect for pernicious deed.
If you have in your side you could just use submerge or sower to deal with tombstalkers but without the CA of standstill and the protection of CB you have no chances.

Edit:Againts 8-Pox variations just counter Cruciable of Worlds if you are playing UGr and land a CB/Top.EE should take care of chalices and sometimes 3sphere.

keys

09-23-2009, 07:01 PM

Counterbalance does not protect from Snuff Out and rarely from Pulse...

pippo84

09-23-2009, 07:51 PM

You still play other threats and Force of Will and Daze..

keys

09-23-2009, 08:10 PM

You still play other threats and Force of Will and Daze..

Not after a Thoughtseize or Hymn. Daze is a 2-of, and isn't very good at countering free spells. Brainstorm is great at protecting against discard, but it's not always there to help.

J.V., what is your SB plan exactly?

Rood

09-23-2009, 10:48 PM

Just so everyone is clear...this is normally how I use my boarding strategies with Standstill in the MUs it comes out

Goblins:

On play
-1 Standstill (you have Daze, FoW, Bolt, BEBs etc for their first turn drops. Also EE)
On draw
-2 Standstill (Against you have alot of first turn answers I normally still keep 2 in even on the draw)

Merfolk

On play
-3 Standstill (I always leave one in as a silver bullet on the play)

On draw
-4 Standstill

Landstill

On play
-1/2 Standstill depending on build (If they play wastelands then board out 2. If not, keep 3 maindeck. We simple abuse it better then them)

On draw
-2/3 Standstill (Again, pending wastelands)

Mirror

On play
-3 Standstill (I take the same silver bullet approach in this MU as well)

On draw
-4 Standstill

Standstills matchups where it resolves is normally gg

-Threshold
-Discard
-Stompy.decks/Stax
-Survival
-NLU

Shimi

09-23-2009, 11:59 PM

Tangle.Wire

09-24-2009, 05:37 AM

I'm testing Ur build and i am a little confused about the Sideboard.
SB:
3-Pyroclasm or Firespout
4-Bolt/ or 2-Sower/Threads of Disloaty and 2-BEB
3-REB
2-Blood Moon
2-Relic
1-Tormod

What do you guys think?Which is better? Pyroclasm or Firespout? In a agroo meta full of TempoTrash , merfolks, zoo and goblins should i play 4 bolt or 2 sower + 2 BEB for others MUs?What are you playing now?

i think even on the UR build firespout is the better one to play, nearly every tribal deck plays lords which wreck pyroclasms very fast, also firespout will take out mongoose or avengers etc. I also never had the situation that i needed to pyroclasm a hypnotic specter or something flying.

Wasteland

09-24-2009, 07:41 AM

will take out mongoose or avengers etc. I also never had the situation that i needed to pyroclasm a hypnotic specter or something flying.

Fail (if you are talking about the UR build)

Tangle.Wire

09-24-2009, 07:58 AM

Fail (if you are talking about the UR build)

I dont board lightning bolts so i am not sure if 3 pyroclasm would be enough.

J.V.

09-24-2009, 11:26 AM

I think he was referring to the fact that Avenger has flying...

FoolofaTook

09-24-2009, 11:36 AM

Definitely use Firespout. 3 damage is where the sweeper needs to be at this point.

@J.V. and Rood - I've been pulling Standstill against Goblins and Merfolk on the grounds that an Aether Vial pins it in the hand and they both have lands that cause it to be an iffy proposition. I have so much to board in against both between the Firespouts, Lightning Bolts and REB's for Merfolk. Sounds like both of you keep a couple around for refilling the hand in midgame if the opportunity presents. I'll have to think about that one.

J.V.

09-24-2009, 11:43 AM

pippo84

09-24-2009, 08:32 PM

I always board out Standstill against decks with Vial, but I'll try and keep 1-2 when on the play to see how it goes.
Btw has anyone ever tried a planeswalker in the deck?

J.V.

09-25-2009, 12:18 AM

I've tested Jace a few times, he's excellent sometimes but I found that when he's good he is also a bit of a win more...

Gibsonmac

09-25-2009, 01:08 AM

is there any sort of consensus as to whether Ur or UGr is the better build??

FoolofaTook

09-25-2009, 02:35 AM

is there any sort of consensus as to whether Ur or UGr is the better build??

Ugr has more raw power and also more vulnerabilities. Ur is steadier and more controllish. It really depends on how you like to play I think. Both builds have done well and either one could easily top 8 a major tourney without getting particularly good matchups along the way.

pippo84

09-26-2009, 01:39 PM

What about discussing sideboarding strategies against different decks instead of just Boarding standstill discussion?

Shimi

09-26-2009, 03:54 PM

is there any sort of consensus as to whether Ur or UGr is the better build??

I tested the UGr build and it is very fine..5 champs/3 top8 :wink: and almost every MU i could feel that if i had played better or make the right decisions i could have won the game :cry: .I particulary play slow so i it lead me to many draws when i could have easily win the game.

Now I'm going to test the Ur build and see the diferences between them and which one i like the most.In the end all is resumed by your style , if you play your style you have better results.

The main list seem very solid so i agree with pippo we should discuss more about sideboarding card AND strategy.

OurSerratedDust

09-27-2009, 02:14 PM

Tangle.Wire

09-28-2009, 03:44 AM

So what is the typical solid Ur list now? Roodmistah?

Verbal warning for spam. See our Site Rules. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) Next time, send a Private Message. - Bardo

I'am not roodmistah, but the UR list i'am running at the moment feels very solid:

4 Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

3 Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Engineered explosives
1 Trickbind
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
5 Island

Sideboard:

3 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
3 Submerge
1 Rushing River

-> As i missed the Tournament yesterday, i can't say how good telepathy will work at all :tongue: so i changed into the current list, which i really like. As i allready said i don't run any graveyard hate at all cause i only would need it for the dreadge matchup but i dont count on those wins anymore.

J.V.

09-28-2009, 11:44 AM

Rodney's current maindeck is:
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Rushing River
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Trickbind
+1 Island
+1 Engineered Explosives

pippo84

09-28-2009, 01:41 PM

Rodney's current maindeck is:
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Rushing River
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Trickbind
+1 Island
+1 Engineered Explosives

He plays the same MD from ages, great for him!

J.V.

09-28-2009, 01:46 PM

He plays the same MD from ages, great for him!
Honestly, he is too lazy to test new things. :wink:

Tangle.Wire

09-28-2009, 02:07 PM

Rodney's current maindeck is:
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Rushing River
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Trickbind
+1 Island
+1 Engineered Explosives

I actually played the same list before, but i like rushing river more than the second explosives as the river trades everything and is a bit faster imo. The third trinket is cut for the third top on my list as i don't played the mage that often on my testgames as i already draw into dreadnoughts everytime and just needed to search top or explosives so the third top seems to be a bit more vunerable to me.

For the Trickbind i just had no empty space as i dont want to cut any more. The 5/6 islands have never been a problem to me so i feld like playing a third vulcanic as my sideboard is nearly complete red and prepared for opponents wastelands or other land removal i didn't want to play only 2 volcanics.

J.V.

09-28-2009, 02:17 PM

Anyways, on the topic of Ur Dreadstill, this is what I sleeve up when I play it:
// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Tropical Island
4 [RAV] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
SB: 2 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Shimi

09-28-2009, 04:11 PM

Rodney's current maindeck is:
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Rushing River
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Trickbind
+1 Island
+1 Engineered Explosives

That's what i'm playing now, but i'm considering about:
-1 Trinket Mage or Daze
+1 Crucible of Worlds or Rushing River

SB:
3-Firespout
3-REB
4-Bolt
2-Blood moon
2-Relic
1-Tormod

I'm playing 3 Grave hates because there is always some TempoTrash , Loam and Ichorid in my meta.

OurSerratedDust

09-29-2009, 03:01 PM

JV, so you think that another counterbalance and top are better than 4 standstills?

Shimi

09-29-2009, 08:55 PM

I just can't stop thinking about Spell Pierce.Did anyone tested it? or at least thought about it in Dreadstill?
Since nought is bigger than everything( expect progenitous), a good protection like Spell Pierce could be usefull for us?Or the NON-CREATURE cause is so awful to play it?

J.V.

10-01-2009, 01:24 AM

JV, so you think that another counterbalance and top are better than 4 standstills?

I think that it is better in current environment, Standstill can be a liability in matches such as Merfolk and Goblins, and I basically never don't want to have Counterbalance on the board. It may just be a play style thing though, I know for a fact Rodney swears by the other direction on this...
...
If you were really heart set on playing 4 Standstill I would go down to 3 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts before reducing Counterbalance.

I think Spell Pierce is too situation, what is it better than? Also not hitting Tarmogoyf is relevant.

johanessen

10-01-2009, 12:27 PM

Tangle.Wire

10-02-2009, 04:15 AM

I'm now working on a solid Urw version that doesn't focus at Dreadnought as only wincon, i'd opted for two blue creatures I think they are too much underrated: Vendillion Clique and Wake Thrasher.

That is the list:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Wake Thrasher

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Standstill
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Daze

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle

White is basically for Meddling Mages naming Krosan, while we are able to play disenchants. Also we can name Goyf, Swords, Vials and much other very played cards we don't use

Red is against swarm (firespout and pyroclasm), also help against blue based or merfolks (they can be a pain).

Maybe i'd need an answer for goyfs, but i think one maindeck relic is enough . we will have to wait for dreadnogh and swing ftw.

Haven't had time to test the deck, but what's your opinion?

Why play white if you dont play swords to plowshares? even on dreadstill they are great as a dreadnought will counter the gaining life effekt. I also dont understand why u picked up vendillion and trasher, they are nearly useless, i also like the random cliuque on different decklists but not on dreadstill. I guess if you change like this it could work

- 2 Clique
- 2 Trasher
- 2 Firespout (main)

+ 1 Enlightened tutor
+4 swords to plowshares
+ 1 trickbind

For the Sideboard i would change the disenchants to something with the same effect for CC3 just to get it through if you're also faced to a counterbalance, i personally would like oblivion ring here as you will be able to find it with enlightened tutor (i really would play it 1-2 on every w dreadnought list) and it could handle even things like planeswalker or creatures.

pippo84

10-05-2009, 06:30 PM

Shimi

10-05-2009, 06:40 PM

I know someone already pointed out Spell Pierce, but there hasen't been a real discussion for it.
Ok, it doesn't hit Goyf, but I think it could be really strong. Situational? Sure, but even Spell Snare and Daze are situational.
I think it could turn out to be really strong..
Thoughts?

I pointed out Spell Pierce but I really didn't get some time to test it.What i think is: Is it better in UGr or Ur build?Cutting spell snares and go for 4CB and 3 Spell Pierce could work?Spell Pierce is better for protecting and rushing nought but without a threat Spell Snare is better.Is the fact that Spell Pierce loses power in the late game so relevant(people can really aford to pay :2: is late game)?

If someone tested Spell Pierce please share the results without fear.

Tangle.Wire

10-06-2009, 03:20 AM

I like Spell pierce, but as you said spell snare counters goofy also CC2 Spells on the mid-lategame and as i got no slots free i dont know what to cut for it.

pippo84

10-06-2009, 09:35 AM

So, after Zendikar's release no changes for us?
I don't think so, except for the fetches, even though I won't play a Forest because I need Green just for Goyfs and Krosan Grips..

Tangle.Wire

10-06-2009, 03:53 PM

So, after Zendikar's release no changes for us?
I don't think so, except for the fetches, even though I won't play a Forest because I need Green just for Goyfs and Krosan Grips..

Yes its sad as not many changes are going around these days but i think the deck is more or less outsourced :> I actually only wait for the next tournament to try out which either i like more, UR or URG so there will only be Questions like 1 pithing needle or 1 relic of progenitus for the sideboard or just a 4th Lightning Bolt as i only got 1 slot left.

pippo84

10-06-2009, 06:24 PM

Agreed. Probably we have optimized our mainboard (I don't want to change a single slot!) and the only discussions left are sideboard (even here I don't want to change a card!), sideboarding and Mu strategies..

Shimi

10-06-2009, 06:49 PM

Tangle.Wire

10-07-2009, 04:42 AM

I listed my current list 1-2 pages before (its UR) the Sideboard is:

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
1 x
3 Submerge
2 Blood Moon

pippo84

10-07-2009, 08:24 AM

My UGR side:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Reb
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

Tangle.Wire

10-07-2009, 02:03 PM

My UGR side:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Reb
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

I nearly played a same Shell, but did you try out 1 trygon predator+2 grip? i really feld pretty good with it. I think you also could try submerge instead of a relic/crypt and a needle as graveyard hate isn't usefull at all for most situations.