[Article] The Cruel Tutelage of Thich Nhat Hanh, Part 2 (Landstill)

[diffy]

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15607.html)



Anyone who knows my writing from other websites knows that I need little provocation to write a tournament report. If someone looks at me cross-eyed: I’ll write a tournament report. If I stub a toe on the coffee table in living room while drunk: I’ll write a tournament report. And when I have two first place finishes at local Legacy tournaments fresh in my memory, you can bet your ass I’ll write a tournament report.


In this massive article, Bardo talks about 4c Landstill and its development into 3c Landstill as well as giving an overview of the different things the color splashes can add to Landstill in general.
He undermines his thoughts with two tournament 'success story'-reports before concluding on an analysis of the 2007 Legacy Meta.

Overall, I really enjoyed this piece of work - in depth, good and reasoned writing has to be to everyone's liking.

[Nightmare]

Good God man. You go on forever! I guess when you're only writing once in a while you have the drive to make it worth the wait. And it was.

I totally put Countertop in Landstill first though (lets fight over it). And Deed + Top in the same deck = cringe.

[Bardo]

Good God man. You go on forever! I guess when you're only writing once in a while you have the drive to make it worth the wait. And it was.

You wouldn't believe how much I took out. :)


And Deed + Top in the same deck = cringe.

You can just activate top in response to the Deed trigger if you don't want to blow it up, you know?

Also, I'm happy this article finally went up. It was submitted what seems like aeons ago, but there it is.

[xsockmonkeyx]

And Deed + Top in the same deck = cringe.

Um, why? Did you mean Countertop + Deed?

[Zach Tartell]

Um, why?

Because Top plays well with Counterbalance. And Counterbalance + Deed = Frowntown

[Bardo]

Because Top plays well with Counterbalance. And Counterbalance + Deed = Frowntown

Meh. This is definitely one of these "theoretically anti-synergetic" ideas that doesn't bear out in actual performance. I've made these points repeatedly whenever The Vorosh Deck comes up, but really, in hundreds of games, I don't think I've ever once blown up my own CBalance, or Shackles, etc. and if I have, I had #2 waiting in hand. Nuking your shit with Deed is far greater of a problem on paper than it is when you're playing the deck.

In the tournaments I played, the only permanent I ever nuked was my EE, which was rendered useless by an opposing Pithing Needle.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you are forced to kill off your own CB, then there is probably a good reason for doing it anyway. Also, EOT Deeding the board then untapping and laying Counterbalance sounds pretty good to me.

[b4r0n]

This was one of the best Unlocking Legacy articles that I've read. Bardo, please write more!

I really like the shift from 4 color to 3 color. The more I play with 3 color, the more I realize that the only thing that I truly miss from white is the spot removal that Swords provides. Wrath/Moat/Decree/Mage are all nice, but seem like afterthoughts when splashing white. But, although the loss of Swords is pretty rough, the smoothness of the manabase makes it well worth going U/b/g. In particular, the manabase of that final Vorosh list is amazing; the more I play with it, the more I like it.

In regards to Deed and Counterbalance, I look at Deed as more of an emergency reset button than as anything else. If I'm ever in the position that I absolutely need to sweep the board, losing an extra card in order to regain board control still sounds like a pretty sweet deal. So I don't really see a problem running them together.

[Bardo]

The more I play with 3 color, the more I realize that the only thing that I truly miss from white is the spot removal that Swords provides.

Exactly, white = StP; everything else is luxury. That's the way it seems to me. And whatever advantages a fourth color adds are somewhat offset (+/-) by inconsistencies in hitting your colors, especially in the first four turns.

If you want to convert the list at the end to 4-colors, here are the changes I recommend:

+4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Vedalken Shackles
-2 Spell Snare

+3 Tundra
-1 Breeding Pool
-1 Academy Ruins
-1 Swamp

I'd then drop the Confidants and maybe a Plague or BEB in the sideboard for +4 Meddling Mage.

After that, I'd see what kind of appetite I had for adding in Nantuko Monastery.

Thanks for the compliments. :)

[Phantom]

Read it all. Loved it.

Bardo, do you have any thoughts on the latest trends in Landstill? Looks like you've adopted Goyf and CB, but what about Planswalkers? Cunning Wish? Hoofprints? Removing Standstill? Did you test any of these, and if so what were your thoughts?

[Tacosnape]

It always baffles my mind how I read your Landstill articles, disagree with 70% of the article, and then still find myself really -liking- the article. I think it's because it shows that you really put your time and effort in and aren't just saying things for the sake of saying them. Good article.

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had the Breeding Pool idea. I don't run it right now as I don't run Goyf, but I wouldn't run Tarmogoyf (Or Garruk) in Landstill ever again without running either it or Treetop Village, as Extirpate on Tropical = Mass cock shrinkage.

[Bardo]

Bardo, do you have any thoughts on the latest trends in Landstill? Looks like you've adopted Goyf and CB, but what about Planswalkers? Cunning Wish? Hoofprints? Removing Standstill? Did you test any of these, and if so what were your thoughts?

Um, no? Kidding. I forgot to mention this in the article, but I feel this is a sort of Golden Age for the Landstill archetype--that was the real impetus for writing Parts 1 and 2 of “Thich Nhat Hahn's Cruel Tutelage,” a.k.a. "The Landstill Article(s)". There are so many people working on breaking the deck, innovating technology, questioning assumptions and pushing boundaries. For the time being, I think it is one of the most interesting decks in the format (speaking personally), just due to the wide variance in design technology. To your questions:

Goyf & CB: Been there. Love them.

Planeswalkers: I've experimented with Jace, Garruk and Liliana (not the other two in Landstill) and cut them all. Some of the most fun MtG I’ve had in recent memory was getting Jace out with Liliana--that was absurdly fun and disgusting. Otherwise, they’re all very powerful, add a lot of utility to the deck, but are unnecessary, despite being very cool in the abstract. I like Garruk the most, because he fits into the shell perfectly, but 4 mana and double-G is quite an investment, despite the potential payoff. If you can keep him alive, Jace is at once a superior and inferior form of card drawing relative to other viable options, since he’s slower and vulnerable to several forms of disruption. Liliana I found to be too slow, expensive and not terribly relevant.

Obviously, in all of these cases and in the right game-states, each of them can be a total bomb-tastic blow-out, but that’s true of many cards that we’re not playing. Anyway, I’ll just reserve any conclusions for the time being, but after playing with three of them, I took them all out for other cards and haven’t missed them.

Hoofprints: I own three copies, but I’ve never played with them in Landstill. No opinion.

Cunning Wish: I tried x2 Cunning Wish for roughly 12-15 games. I didn’t like their effect on the curve, how they compromised the focus in my sideboard or how they just seemed “cool, but unnecessary.” (See also Planewalkers.) They didn’t solve any problem that the maindeck couldn’t address and were not missed when they were cut.

Standstill: Properly built-around, Standstill is the most powerful draw spell in the format, for relative investment. I love the art, the psychological power of the card, the synergy with the manlands, and that it draws three freaking cards for two mana, with a mild, easy-to-meet condition. Ultimately, blue control needs some form of card advantage that doesn’t unduly encumber its defensive speed, and Standstill provides that. It gives you more 2s for CB and will win you many, many games.

Thoughts? There you go. ;)

[diffy]

Cunning Wish: I tried x2 Cunning Wish for roughly 12-15 games. I didn’t like their effect on the curve, how they compromised the focus in my sideboard or how they just seemed “cool, but unnecessary.” (See also Planewalkers.) They didn’t solve any problem that the maindeck couldn’t address and were not missed when they were cut.

As one of the prime promoters of Cunning Wish in Landstill, I feel like I have to add something here:
I think you only tested Cunning Wish in any Ubg(X) Landstill variant - where he is a little superfluous because you already have Pernicious Deed to take care of troublesome Artifacts and Enchantments. He still has some merits because he can get Extirpate, but as Life from the Loam's and Genesis' popularity seem to drop into oblivion once you've crossed the Atlantic, I can see how you would be a little underwhelmed by the Wish: he still acts as a flexible Disenchant/Removal slot but is pretty clunky (read: mana intensive) at doing so.
On the other hand, in any Landstill variant not packing Pernicious Deed, you do have quite some problems to remove above mentioned Artifacts and Enchantments where Cunning Wish really helps by fetching a Disenchant effect (Return to Dust, Krosan Grip, Dismantling Blow etc.). Also, the non black/green Landstill builds tend to be more white-centred so that Cunning Wish can now also get Pulse of the Fields (a house in any aggro matchup) and [people will hate me for this statement] Enlightened Tutor for the win (read: for Humility or Moat).

[Eldariel]

I really liked the article, good job writing it. The results are interesting to say the least and I like how you've actually tested everything you talk about instead of just theorizing. Countertop Landstill really looks like an NLU-style deck more than a true control-deck; aggro-control that just errs more on the side of control than aggro. Tarmogoyf and Countertop direct it more to that direction.

[Bardo]

I think you only tested Cunning Wish in any Ubg(X) Landstill variant - where he is a little superfluous because you already have Pernicious Deed to take care of troublesome Artifacts and Enchantments.

Exactly. Maindeck Deed and EE perform just about everything I wanted to get out of Cunning Wish without diluting my sideboard. Configured as I had the deck, Wish was mainly Extirpate for 2BU.

[inside88]

hello every body,

Can you explain me the plan side of matchup with the The Vorosh Deck 2k8.2 with :

3 Dark Confidant
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip

match vs goblin :
+4 plague
+3 hydroblast
-4 landstill
-2 spellnare
-1 conterspell

vs ichoride ? vs Threshold W ? vs ***** R ? vs Fish and other match up aggro and control !

Thanks.

[Bardo]

You do very little boarding against Thresh (/w, /r, /b), Fish and Angel Stompy since the maindeck already beats the piss out of them.

Ichorid is pretty much an auto-loss, go and get some lunch or scout around or something. :) The most flexible sideboard slot are the Dark Confidants, so I'd use those cards to adjust it for your metagame. If you're expecting a lot of Ichorid, you might just run 4x Leyline of the Void or just accept it as a loss. Yixlid Jailer is another option.

By card, here's what the sideboard is for.

Engineered Plague: Goblins, Elves, Slivers
Hydroblast / BEB: Burn, Gobs, Goyf Sligh, Dragon Stompy
Confidants: combo, the mirror, stuff
Krosan Grip: mirror, random stuff
Extirpate: mirror, Ichorid, random stuff

If I were to play the deck today, I'd probably drop the 3x Confidants for 3x Stifle.

Versus Goblins, you do quite a bit of sideboarding:

+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Hydroblast
-3 Counterbalance
-2 Spell Snare
-2 EE/Deed

I also recently dropped the maindeck Shackles for Smother, so here's the current version of the deck:

"The Vorosh Deck 2k8.3"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Smother

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip

Customize the sideboard for your field, but I'd definitely keep some Extirpates and Grips in there.

Good luck!

[Nihil Credo]

Ichorid is pretty much an auto-loss, go and get some lunch or scout around or something. :)
Euros to elderberries it's not an auto-loss. With Hausmann's UWb Landstill (3 EE main) siding playsets of Extirpate, Plague, and Meddling Mage I've pulled very favourable post-side results against Ichorids - enough so to actually turn around the overall matchup after the 10% chances of winning G1.

Your lists lacks the Mages and one Extirpate, and has no access to Swords to Plowshares, but on the plus side you've got Deeds in addition to EE, Tarmogoyf to nullify an Ichorid or to go into race and Stifle to kill Narcomoeba and Coliseum.

With the following plan:

-4 Standstill
-3 Counterbalance
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Smother
+4 Plague
+3 Extirpate
+3 Stifle

you should be all set for two at least fair post-SB games. Just don't let them successfully Dread Return any Akroma...

[inside88]

The Deck take Fisrt in FrenchPolynesia ...! Thanks Bardo ;-)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219870&postcount=599

vs UGr *****
+3 Extirpate
+1 Grip
-4 Standstill

[Bardo]

Oh man, that is awesome: "The Vorosh Deck" vs. Red Thresh, played in Tahiti by French-speaking players:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knesLurvBF4&eurl=http://magictahiti.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=672&sid=c311d5ad5d8624fb94db10757b26ecca

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aVaMcFp_xo&eurl=http://magictahiti.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=672&sid=c311d5ad5d8624fb94db10757b26ecca

Part 3 (?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pyqp-FK8ZM&eurl=http://magictahiti.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=672&sid=c311d5ad5d8624fb94db10757b26ecca

Lists and pics here:
http://magictahiti.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=672&sid=c311d5ad5d8624fb94db10757b26ecca#672

The Internet rocks.

I'd definitely keep the Standstills in against Thresh though--I suppose Deed counts as pseudo-draw.

[Ebinsugewa]

How do you feel about the Spell Snare spots? I feel like that's the weakest card in the deck. I replaced it with Stifle and it hasn't bothered me in a single game. What were you thinking about when you included it? I just might not have encountered the situation yet.

[Bardo]

How do you feel about the Spell Snare spots? I feel like that's the weakest card in the deck. I replaced it with Stifle and it hasn't bothered me in a single game. What were you thinking about when you included it? I just might not have encountered the situation yet.

Spell Snare is good for the same reason Counterbalance is good: by countering the format's many powerful 2s. Snare also gives you some action if you're on the draw, and provides another 1 for Counterbalance (you don't need too many, but I don't know if 7 is enough [i.e. 4x Brainstorm, 3x Top])

As for what Spell Snare is specifically good for, I covered that under the CBalance discussion in the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15607.html):

"Arcbound Ravager, Burning Wish, Counterbalance, Counterspell, Cranial Plating, Dark Confidant, Diabolic Edict, Fire / Ice, Goblin Piledriver, Hoofprints of the Stag, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal Tutor, Jotun Grunt, Life from the Loam, Isochron Scepter, Magma Jet, Meddling Mage, Nantuko Shade, Price of Progress, Serra Avenger, Sinkhole, Standstill, Survival of the Fittest, Tarmogoyf, Tin Street Hooligan, Umezawa’s Jitte, Warren Weirding, Werebear, Wild Mongrel, etc., etc. You get the point."

Stifle is a fine alternative, but make sure you've tested Spell Snare exhaustively and compare which instance you'd rather have each card in hand.

[TopGun]

Hi Bardo,

I'm just wondering how your mirror match goes? Do you miss having wastelands and crucible very much? Or stifle?

To me it seems like Vorosh would be at a disadvantage against these cards from a non-cb/top list...does the power of cb/top make up for it?

Thanks,
-TG

[Ebinsugewa]

Spell Snare is good for the same reason Counterbalance is good: by countering the format's many powerful 2s. Snare also gives you some action if you're on the draw, and provides another 1 for Counterbalance (you don't need too many, but I don't know if 7 is enough [i.e. 4x Brainstorm, 3x Top])

As for what Spell Snare is specifically good for, I covered that under the CBalance discussion in the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15607.html):

"Arcbound Ravager, Burning Wish, Counterbalance, Counterspell, Cranial Plating, Dark Confidant, Diabolic Edict, Fire / Ice, Goblin Piledriver, Hoofprints of the Stag, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal Tutor, Jotun Grunt, Life from the Loam, Isochron Scepter, Magma Jet, Meddling Mage, Nantuko Shade, Price of Progress, Serra Avenger, Sinkhole, Standstill, Survival of the Fittest, Tarmogoyf, Tin Street Hooligan, Umezawa’s Jitte, Warren Weirding, Werebear, Wild Mongrel, etc., etc. You get the point."

Stifle is a fine alternative, but make sure you've tested Spell Snare exhaustively and compare which instance you'd rather have each card in hand.

If Spell Snare is so good, why only play 2? I think that's the thing I was hung up on most. It seemed like more of a utility slot than a card that is mostly used in the early turns for tempo advantage. It seems counterintuitive to only play 2 of a card with decreasing utility over time.

[Bardo]

I'm just wondering how your mirror match goes? Do you miss having wastelands and crucible very much? Or stifle?

To me it seems like Vorosh would be at a disadvantage against these cards from a non-cb/top list...does the power of cb/top make up for it?

There's so much variance in the Landstill builds that it's hard to generalize, other than to say that in my limited testing, the match is not in Vorosh's favor. Your primary source of card advantage (Standstill) is irrelevant; Waste/Crucible can a rout and Counterbalance stops a lot except for their most crippling spells: the 4s (Humility and Moat, primarily; Fact, less so). Your best bet is to drop and protect an early Goyf and play in CounterSliver mode--forcing through whatever damage you can.

Post-board, you get the excellent Extirpate and Krosan Grip, which help, but not enough to tip the match in your favor. Basically, the deck isn't designed to face more traditional (i.e. slower) Landstill builds, and it shows.


If Spell Snare is so good, why only play 2? I think that's the thing I was hung up on most. It seemed like more of a utility slot than a card that is mostly used in the early turns for tempo advantage. It seems counterintuitive to only play 2 of a card with decreasing utility over time.

Spell Snare is a very interesting spell. When I first started playing with, I added it to Threshold and thought of the spell along the same lines as Daze. It took me some time to realize that each spell is quite different than the other.

Daze is good for the same reason that Moxen are good: they exploit a fundamental game design aspect of Magic: the limits of mana production. Daze disrupts your opponent owing to this restriction; moxen accelerate the game in the way it wasn't designed to be played (which is why they're restricted/banned in the formats in which they're legal). In the same way that late game moxen are poor topdecks, so is Daze.

Spell Snare is interesting in that it never loses power because the power of Legacy is largely defined by the power of the format's 2s. Look at the list above (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=221456&postcount=22) and you'll see what I mean. Almost without exception each of those cards are strong at almost all phases of the game; some are actually better as the game wears on (e.g. Grunt, Goyf, Price of Progress). So, Spell Snare never loses quality and is always a nice card to see in your hand or pull off the top of your library.

This is all a long explanation to refute your point that Spell Snare "is mostly used in the early turns for tempo advantage." I don't think that's true. It maintains whatever value it has throughout the game and just happens to be very sweet in the early game.

Your second point is a good one: why 2? Shaving. I think 3 is probably the right number. Here's how the deck is constructed and you can see the problem:

"Vorosh," stripped bare

8 Card Draw
8 Counters
8 Board Removal
6 Counter-Top
4 Tarmogoyf
24 Land

That leaves you with 2 slots that are flexible. Hence, 2 Spell Snare. I don't have anything else to cut and I don't want to play 61 cards.

[TopGun]

There's so much variance in the Landstill builds that it's hard to generalize, other than to say that in my limited testing, the match is not in Vorosh's favor. Your primary source of card advantage (Standstill) is irrelevant; Waste/Crucible can a rout and Counterbalance stops a lot except for their most crippling spells: the 4s (Humility and Moat, primarily; Fact, less so). Your best bet is to drop and protect an early Goyf and play in CounterSliver mode--forcing through whatever damage you can.

Post-board, you get the excellent Extirpate and Krosan Grip, which help, but not enough to tip the match in your favor. Basically, the deck isn't designed to face more traditional (i.e. slower) Landstill builds, and it shows.


That's too bad...and kinda what I thought. I was hoping we'd have good matchups against #1 Thresh, #'s 2-4 Combo, Goblins, Landstill (not sure on the order here). Ah well, at least you're honest.

I have some other questions for you though. How helpful has academy ruins been for you? Better than a 3rd spell snare? It doesn't really help your colored mana...but I can see recurring ee being pretty amazing...just wondered how often it actually came up...that it wasn't just a win more card, but you actually needed it?

Or what about +3 Wasteland, +2 Crucible...-1 Island, -1 Academy, -2 Spell Snare, -1 (Mishra's?, Fetchland?, smother?, CB?, counterspell?, other?)...what are your opinions on that? Would it weaken your other matchups too much? Would it be enough to level the playing field against other Landstill?

Or, should I just STFU and put in a little work on my own? :tongue:

Thanks,
-TG

[Bardo]

I have some other questions for you though. How helpful has academy ruins been for you?

To be totally honest, Academy Ruins looks awesome on paper, but out of roughly ten games that I draw and play it, I'll only activate it's 'Stronghold' effect no more than one or two times. I've played a few games vs. Thresh where I'll have it in play and my opponent will see an EE in the graveyard and if the game is not going well, they'll scoop, since recurring EE vs. Thresh is a ugly thing. But Thresh is already favored, so in this case, yeah, it's Ruins are totally "win more" and I should probably cut them.


Better than a 3rd spell snare? It doesn't really help your colored mana...but I can see recurring ee being pretty amazing...just wondered how often it actually came up...that it wasn't just a win more card, but you actually needed it?

Academy Ruins is filling a land slot, not a spell slot; so I'm not sure if cutting them for Snare #3 is correct. Overall, Ruins isn't "needed" and is definitely on the short-list of cards to drop.


Or what about +3 Wasteland, +2 Crucible...-1 Island, -1 Academy, -2 Spell Snare, -1 (Mishra's?, Fetchland?, smother?, CB?, counterspell?, other?)...what are your opinions on that?

If you wanted to squeeze in Crucible/Waste, I would go:

+3 Wasteland
+2 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Academy Ruins
-1 Swamp
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Smother

Giving you:

"Vorosh 2k8.4"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare (or Smother)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Breeding Pool / Trop #4
3 Island

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip


Would it weaken your other matchups too much? Would it be enough to level the playing field against other Landstill?

It would definitely increase your game vs. Landstill (and slower board control decks in general) and I don't see your match-up vs. Thresh being significantly weakened. Recurring Wasteland is pretty damn good against them. It's definitely worth testing. I'll try it out when I have some free time later. I do like having the extra 3s for CBalance now that I've dropped the Shackles.

[TopGun]

Hooray for not doing my own homework!!!:laugh:

Yes, please definitely let me know how testing goes.

Also, just wondering why you wouldn't want to drop one island instead of the swamp? I guess blood moon shuts off deed and ee either way though so it doesn't really matter?

Thanks,
-TG

[Bardo]

Also, just wondering why you wouldn't want to drop one island instead of the swamp? I guess blood moon shuts off deed and ee either way though so it doesn't really matter?

Mainly because you're increasing the number of non-blue producing lands by introducing Wasteland (which should be viewed sort of like a quasi spell-land; sorta like Lonely Sandbar and friends). Anyway, the deck is a blue mana hog and I'm reluctant to increase the odds of self-induced color-screw to minimally obviate non-basic land hate. The lone Swamp isn't all that great anyway and the odds of Waste -> U Sea <- Extirpate are negligible.

[Ebinsugewa]

Spell Snare is interesting in that it never loses power because the power of Legacy is largely defined by the power of the format's 2s. Look at the list above (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=221456&postcount=22) and you'll see what I mean. Almost without exception each of those cards are strong at almost all phases of the game; some are actually better as the game wears on (e.g. Grunt, Goyf, Price of Progress). So, Spell Snare never loses quality and is always a nice card to see in your hand or pull off the top of your library.

This is all a long explanation to refute your point that Spell Snare "is mostly used in the early turns for tempo advantage." I don't think that's true. It maintains whatever value it has throughout the game and just happens to be very sweet in the early game.

Your second point is a good one: why 2? Shaving. I think 3 is probably the right number.

I still disagree with you on every point. Legacy may or may not be defined by 2 mana cards (which I don't agree with), but almost none of the cards that you listed are played in anything you're likely to see in anything but the biggest fields of tournaments. However, I tend to play in Source-aware metas and that may sway my choice a bit. Spell Snare does lose power, because your ability to answer threats increases as the game wears on. I don't think many people would disagree with the fact that Spell Snare is only marginally good later than turn 2ish in comparison to the other answers your deck is chock-full of. By the same token, Spell Snare is an awful topdeck. All reactive cards are. There's almost never a situation in which I would be praying to rip a counter as narrow as Spell Snare, in a format as diverse as Legacy.

[Bardo]

However, I tend to play in Source-aware metas and that may sway my choice a bit.

So, your "Source-aware meta" has discovered that Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, SotF, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Standstill and friends are "bad" cards?


your ability to answer threats increases as the game wears on.

True, but the power of opposing 2s hasn't diminished: Spell Snare is just as relevant vs. Tarmogoyf on turn 15 as it is on turn 2. And for that job, it's one of the most efficient tools you have; far cheaper than dropping and popping EE for 4 (UG+2) to accomplish the same thing.


By the same token, Spell Snare is an awful topdeck. All reactive cards are. There's almost never a situation in which I would be praying to rip a counter as narrow as Spell Snare, in a format as diverse as Legacy.

Looking at what I wrote, that definitely isn't what I intended. When you and your opponent have pretty much expended your cards in hand and early draws and you're both looking at the top of your library to gain advantage and put the game away, Spell Snare is definitely a shit draw. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't. I meant that during the first five or so turns when you're still trying to gain an advantage on the board and develop superior resources, Spell Snare is a fine card to draw off the top of your library (i.e. not in your opening hand) and many 2s will be presented in that and later phases of the game.

Also, let's say you drop a Standstill and you're both sort of at a standstill: no one's gaining or losing advantage and you're both playing draw-go. In many matches, accumulating a Spell Snare in that phase of the game is strong if you're building toward a serious counter-war, since many of the spells you really want to counter are going to cost 2. And why spend UU when you can do it for U?

Obviously, if you're getting beat down and need to draw into some form of board control to salvage the game, FoW, CSpell, Counterbalance or Spell Snare are not the cards you want to rip off the top of your library.

[Ebinsugewa]

So, your "Source-aware meta" has discovered that Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, SotF, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Standstill and friends are "bad" cards?

Spell Snare is indeed good against these cards, however, they each appear in a different deck, whereas I've found Stifle is at least average against every deck, and gives you significantly more game against combo game 1. They're already in the sideboard, so why not play them main? I found myself siding them in every single game, except against Threshold.


True, but the power of opposing 2s hasn't diminished: Spell Snare is just as relevant vs. Tarmogoyf on turn 15 as it is on turn 2. And for that job, it's one of the most efficient tools you have; far cheaper than dropping and popping EE for 4 (UG+2) to accomplish the same thing.If it's turn 15, what do you care if the answer costs 4? The power of opposing 2s has indeed not diminished, but your available resources and methods of dealing with them should have increased. It seems like Counterspell is just as good while being quite good against spells that don't cost 2. A 6/7 on turn 15 does not a game often win. Unless you've already lost because you've spent all your answers. You can't argue that Spell Snare doesn't lose utility over time when the difference between the UU for Counterspell and the U for Snare becomes less and less relevant in a deck with 25 lands for chrissakes.


I meant that during the first five or so turns when you're still trying to gain an advantage on the board and develop superior resources, Spell Snare is a fine card to draw off the top of your library (i.e. not in your opening hand) and many 2s will be presented in that and later phases of the game.

Also, let's say you drop a Standstill and you're both sort of at a standstill: no one's gaining or losing advantage and you're both playing draw-go. In many matches, accumulating a Spell Snare in that phase of the game is strong if you're building toward a serious counter-war, since many of the spells you really want to counter are going to cost 2. And why spend UU when you can do it for U?Both fair points. I really like this deck, and I give you props on modifying it. You also know that I've been a fan of your decks in the past. But I feel like I have to call you out on this one. This deck has to be ruthlessly efficient, and I think that there's really only a two/three turn window where this card matters. Also, why drop Shackles for Smother? Shackles has been insane card advantage, 2 for 1'ing Goblins and stealing win conditions all over town. I have no problem with the lack of targeted removal, and haven't wished for Swords once yet. One of the things I hated about these colors in the past is really shitty targeted removal (Ghastly Demise, Smother). That's why when Shackles found a home in this deck I was so excited. Why kill it when you could steal it? Did a specific matchup or testing session sell you on Smother?

[Bardo]

Spell Snare is indeed good against these cards, however, they each appear in a different deck, whereas I've found Stifle is at least average against every deck, and gives you significantly more game against combo game 1. They're already in the sideboard, so why not play them main? I found myself siding them in every single game, except against Threshold.

Being "average" isn't necessarily enough. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a random fetchland to Stifle thought, "Man, that's mildly annoying" and just went on to win the game anyway. Stifle is a great card, but if it's not fixed on advancing a certain strategy or offseting a particular weakness (e.g. Thresh vs. Deed), then it's only "randomly helpful" and not infrequently dead.

However, trying out the Crucible/Waste variation of Vorosh, Stifle has an actual role in furthering the LD sub-theme, in addition to being randomly helpful against a bunch of other stuff. So yeah, in that version, I think Stifle > Spell Snare.


If it's turn 15, what do you care if the answer costs 4? The power of opposing 2s has indeed not diminished, but your available resources and methods of dealing with them should have increased. It seems like Counterspell is just as good while being quite good against spells that don't cost 2. A 6/7 on turn 15 does not a game often win. Unless you've already lost because you've spent all your answers. You can't argue that Spell Snare doesn't lose utility over time when the difference between the UU for Counterspell and the U for Snare becomes less and less relevant in a deck with 25 lands for chrissakes.

Agreed. These are all reasonable points.


But I feel like I have to call you out on this one.

Please do. I've never seen a deck that I didn't think couldn't be improved, but I've seen many decks where I've reached my limit on being able to improve them. So criticisms are always welcome. TopGun's idea above about fitting in Crucible/Waste in place of some weaker cards to balance out the mirror is a perfect example. I was still in 4c mode when I began tweaking the list, adding Counter-Top, etc. and hadn't seriously considered Wasteland since I really disliked it in the 4c version. So, yeah, call me out on something if it sounds like I'm talking smack.

I've never put out a list that I consider "gospel"; any change is always one good idea away.


Also, why drop Shackles for Smother? Shackles has been insane card advantage, 2 for 1'ing Goblins and stealing win conditions all over town. ... Did a specific matchup or testing session sell you on Smother?

I dropped Shackles for Smother after a testing session in mid-March that involved playing against Black Thresh, Eva Green and Affinity. Against the /B decks, Shackles were too slow (turn 4-5) and at too high a risk for Thoughtseize, etc. Against Affinity, it was just too slow. Granted, against Myr Enforcer, Smother is pretty rotten, but against 70% of the rest of the format, Smother was quicker and just as relevant.

Against some match-ups, Shackles simply dominates. One of the first decks I tested Vorosh against was stock white weenie which is a fundamental litmus test for any deck I'm developing ("If you can't beat WW, don't even bother"), and there (and several other match-ups) Shackles simply dominates the board. It's disgusting. But against so many decks that you care about, Shackles is terribly slow (against Goblins, for instance). Experimenting with Crucible/Waste for the time being, I'm dropping all of the non-EE/Deed board control cards, so the issue is moot.

[aTn]

Nice article Bardo !

You're the person that got me interested in Threshold two years ago and now (for the last 3 months) you got me interested in Landstill. Thanks for ruining my social life !

[frogboy]

The other issue with Shackles is that it sucks when most of your board control is kold to Pithing Needle.

Pursuing a mana denial strategy in a control deck seems counterproductive to me; essentially you're trying to stay in the early game longer wrt access to mana, and you want to get into the midgame ASAP. It's fine vs other control decks, but not an automatic headshot.

Does the card Standstill seem loose to anyone but me? Snare and FoW are all you have against one and two drops on the play. I'm not suggesting playing Swords, at least I don't think I am, but it seems highly relevant.

[Bardo]

Pursuing a mana denial strategy in a control deck seems counterproductive to me; essentially you're trying to stay in the early game longer wrt access to mana, and you want to get into the midgame ASAP. It's fine vs other control decks, but not an automatic headshot.

I got in about a dozen games vs. Goyf Sligh and Affinity and am digging the Wasteland plan. Current manabase:

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Breeding Pool / Trop #4

The blue mana requirements are fairly intense (UU for CSpell and CBalance); but your black and green costs are never more than a single B or G per card. Anyway, if you need the Wasteland for the mana (vs. Goyf Sligh), use it for that; against decks where their colored mana is more fragile, use it for that (e.g. keeping Affinity of Thoughtcast by stripping Seat, etc.)

Overall, Wasteland -- in this deck -- seems to make everything from your weak (mirror), fair (Goblins) and strong (Threshold) matches even better while giving the deck another pseudo-combo (Wasteland-Crucible) and making Standstill more threatening. A nice segue, eh?


Does the card Standstill seem loose to anyone but me?
Man, I love that card. It's pretty poor against a few decks (Ichorid, Lands, the mirror), but short of Brainstorm, is the closest thing we have to Ancestral Recall in Legacy.


Snare and FoW are all you have against one and two drops on the play. I'm not suggesting playing Swords, at least I don't think I am, but it seems highly relevant.

If you want to push the land, I think it comes down to Swords vs. Wasteland.

"Vorosh," Crucible Version

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace Beleren

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

Or the "StP-splash":

"Vorosh," Swords Version

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip

Both are going to have their relative pros and cons here, and the mana will become a total pile of shit if you try to merge the two lists, w/o out something like City of Brass.

Or you can splash /r over /w, for Fire // Ice, Pyroclasm, REB and that sort of thing.

@ Anyone - Any thoughts for the 60th card in the Crucible list above?

[kirdape3]

Trinket Mage.

[frogboy]

how much of an issue is the inability to Plow a Lackey on the draw, and how badly do you need to show threes with Counterbalance?

[Bardo]

Plowing a Lackey necessarily means you're presenting a Tundra (a ripe Wasteland target), but you can definitely survive a Lackey hit on the draw, though you will need to get a little lucky. Regardless, a first-turn Vial is much uglier. Post-board you get Hydroblast (on-color faux-StP) and Engineered Plague to make thing much easier.


How badly do you need to show threes with Counterbalance?
Pre-board, not so much. You're mainly playing CB to own 1s and 2s on the stack. Post-board stopping 3s is a lot more of an issue since anyone running green will be bringing in as many Krosan Grips as they have, but you're also bringing in your own Grips to up the number of 3s in the deck.

Trinket Mage. Eh, I'll try it. A 2/2 bear for 3 mana is a bit much, but it can fetch EE and Top, pitches to Force and is a 3. I think there has to be a better option, but I'll give it a shot.

[Bovinious]

@ Anyone - Any thoughts for the 60th card in the Crucible list above?

Fact or Fiction mayhaps?

[freakish777]

60th card with 3cc -> Vedalken Shackles

[Bardo]

60th card with 3cc -> Vedalken Shackles

Definitely on the short-list, though I'm not sure I need another 3 -- didn't mean to imply that I did. If I was going to pick a card to support CBalance, it would be another 2.

Fact is definitely a good idea, maybe Jace instead? Using Jace in the Crucible list above:

0: 28
1: 7
2: 15
3: 6
4: 0
5: 4

Other cards on the 60th card shortlist:

Top or Counterbalance #4
Garruk Wildspeaker
Maze of Ith
Vedalken Shackles
Diabolic Edict / Smother
Stifle
Meditate
Damnation
Krosan Grip / Extirpate (maindeck)
Tombstalker

I'll test Jace for now and see how it goes.

[freakish777]

I'm a little surprised the White version doesn't have a Decree of Justice in it.

Aslo, 25 lands in the non White version? And yes, I realize 7 are colorless.

[frogboy]

Aslo, 25 lands in the non White version? And yes, I realize 7 are colorless.

Know what's awesome? Casting spells.

[Bardo]

I'm a little surprised the White version doesn't have a Decree of Justice in it.

Meh, it's too slow in this deck, which is much more mid-rangish that traditional Landstill. If I was going to add another maindeck white spell, I'd try to make room for Crime // Punishment. Besides, between Factory / Crucible and Tarmogoyf, there seems to be enough win conditions.


Also, 25 lands in the non White version? And yes, I realize 7 are colorless.

I'm counting each Wasteland as 0.5 land; so I see the Crucible list having ~ 23.5 land, not 25.

[TopGun]

I'm not really liking Jace too much.

I think by taking out 4 ways to deal with an early confidant, goyf, piledriver, etc. (-2 smother and indirectly -2 spell snare) we would want something more like a 4th deed or ee? This actually kind of scares me that we only have 3 ee and 3 deeds to deal with early beatdown that gets through.

Jace seems like a card that doesn't really do that much early (while also tapping out) and a win more card if you make it to the late game.

I've also never really been a huge fan of standstill. I've always had to deal with opponents threats first before I could play one...I could just be unlucky, but they've never really worked right for me. I would think especially with no eot removal it would be even more difficult for this deck. I realize we need some kind of card advantage/draw, and this is probably the best/most synergistic for this deck...but do we need 4?

You said it's kinda bad in the mirror, which is one of our tough matchups. Does it win us our other matchups like goblins and thresh? Or does cheap mass removal backed by counters and cb?

I don't know, I'm just rambling, but I could see going down to 3 standstill...heck, Zvi only had 2 in his list.

I love cb (wins games), love goyf (speeds up the deck sooooo much), love deed (answers everything), love wasteland/crucible (wins games).

I hate not having 4 stp or equivalent.

Also, where'd the breeding pool go?

Those are my random thoughts for today. How's the testing going anyway?

Thanks,
-TG

[Bardo]

How's the testing going anyway?

You're right about Jace. He looks awesome as hell when you're flipping through the deck, but after a bunch of games last night, I pulled him and 1 EE for 2x Diabolic Edict.

Re: Standstill. It definitely takes some work to set up and experience to play correctly. I have a hard time imagining that Zvi's 2 Standstill is theoretically "correct." Most decks run none and those where it's synergistic usually run 4, since it has such a high power-level. If you got rid of them you'd definitely need some kind of additional card draw, which would be Ponder at the low end of the curve, Thirst for Knowledge is you +'d the number of artifacts, or Fact or Fiction. I'm sticking with Standstill for now.


Does it win us our other matchups like goblins and thresh? Or does cheap mass removal backed by counters and cb?

Standstill is kinda fickle vs. Goblins, since it's trash if you haven't dealt with Vial or Lackey -- though, Standstill or not, you're still in trouble. Against most decks that clog the board with dudes, your main play is going to be playing Deed, activating it the following turn and then dropping Standstill. Sometimes it's fine to just drop it blind if there's no pressure on the board. Ultimately, you need time to make your land drops and you'll eventually win with manlands if your opponent theoretically does nothing for the rest of the game. Depending on their deck, a good player will typically break it ASAP so as not to have the pace of the game set by you. In those instances, yippee: 3 cards for two mana. Really though, it's a subtle card and one that you can't play on auto-pilot, so you really need to play it a lot to get a feel for when and how it should be played.


I hate not having 4 stp or equivalent.

Almost all of my other Legacy decks run 4x StP, so it's been kinda fun not having that crutch. It is the best removal in the format, after all. As I mentioned above, for me, it comes down to 3c with Wasteland, without StP vs. 4c with StP, without Wasteland. If EE, Deed and the second tier black removal spells like Smother and Diabolic Edict are enough to deal with most forms of aggro, and Crucible + Wasteland really salvages your game vs. control, I'm inclined to stick 3c. You also get fringe benefits, like getting to run 3-4 basic Islands and have greater overall consistency of your mana, esp. in the early games (turns 1-3).


Also, where'd the breeding pool go?

That slot keeps alternating between the Breeding Pool and Tropical Island #4. The Trop is obviously superior, but Wasteland -> Extirpate on a Trop is likely a game ender -- so the decision is mainly a metagame call. Play it if you think it's warranted.

Current list:

"Vorosh," (April 13, 2008)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Diabolic Edict

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island *
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

* Alternately, -1 Trop, +1 Breeding Pool

[The Grim Reaper]

I'm going to have to disagree with some people here regarding Jace. Most people either run Jace, Fact or fiction, or some random utility cards in these slots (edict, etc.). Its likely that I would run either Jace or Fact or Fiction if I had the choice. In my opinion, Jace is superior to Fact in Landstill for a few reasons:

1. Jace is a win condition. I don't mean that so much as in the "-10, mill for 20" sense, but in the "I draw an extra card every turn for the rest of the game" sense. When you sweep the board of all threats and drop a Jace down, your opponent MUST answer it, or they will lose. Fact or fiction does not do this.

2. Jace is tough to kill without creatures. In a deck that runs so much creature removal (11 slots), its not too much of a challenge to protect your Jace mid-game (which is when you want to drop him). There arn't that many cards which kill plainswalkers in the current meta. Sure, burn and creatures make short work of him, but if you're being attacked and burned to death, you have other problems.

3. Jace is blue and costs 3. Not that you'll be playing Jace early, but its nice to have a cycling damage sponge early on if you need another land drop to save yourself. Force of will bait doesn't hurt either.

The best arguments against Jace that I see, are that he draws cards slowly when compared to fact or fiction, and is vulnerable in situations when you are facing massive creature hordes. People say that Jace seems like a "win-more" card, but really, Jace is just like standstill. You clear the board and drop a Standstill OR Jace, and let the card advantage roll in. Try it out, its a good card!

List for reference:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [9E] Sacred Ground
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

[TopGun]

So, I started testing some today...

Played about 7 games vs. TES with md xantid swarm and orim's chant.

I went 0-7...I'm sure part of it was getting used to the deck--->play mistakes

-like playing a standstill with xantid swarm out (although I did have a goyf)
-not sure on others, but I'm sure I didn't make 100% the best plays/decisions

also, I didn't draw 1 counterbalance in any of the games while a 1st turn xantid swarm was played every game but 1...in which he played it 2nd turn....le' sigh...

What have your experiences been vs. TES?

Also, I'm not so sure about the edicts. I think I prefer smother. I'll have to test them against mongoose though I guess. Smother is definitely better vs. gobs, but it may not matter anyway.

Thanks,
-TG

P.S.-I'm not ignoring the Jace issue, I'm just deferring to Bardo or others on that one.

P.P.S.-I think you can still do a 4c manabase with wasteland--->-2 Island, -1 fetch--->+3 Tundra...letting you add things like stp md, or med. mage sb? Just a thought.

[conboy31]

4 md swarm and 4 chant? Well, that deck is ready for some control which you happened to be playing.

I am not really sure what advice should/will be given about that.

Looking at the general deck lists of the newest vorosh:
no 4 stps
2 possible 2/3rd turn Explosives
2 possible 2nd turn Edicts
double stifle/single and counterspell...
then the regular cbalance flips

What turn did they generally win on and was it via 1 large Tendrills? Double Agony? ETW?

[Bardo]

I went 0-7...I'm sure part of it was getting used to the deck--->play mistakes


Wow, 0-7 is a freaking beating. Sorry to hear that. I've played the match a few times and nothing in my experience would lead me to believe that the match is less than 50-50. For one, you should have 3-4 Stifles between the maindeck and sideboard. Counterbalance is an enormous nuisance for any storm combo deck (short of Dragonstorm, for whatever's that worth); Tarmogoyf is a frightfully fast clock; and you have enough token sweepers in the main that you should have one in hand when you need it. Depending on the current configuration of Vorosh, I'll also board in BEBs for Burning Wish and Pyroblast. They at least pitch to FoW, if nothing else.

I covered the match-up a bit toward the end of the article (linked on the first page), though it isn't terribly exhaustive summary.


Also, I'm not so sure about the edicts. I think I prefer smother.

Yeah, I kinda lied above. On my off-line list, I have 2x Stifle in the Edict/Smother slots; and in real life version of the deck, I have 2x Smother. It's largely a metagame call; you'll need to do a bit of customization everytime you take the deck out for a spin. Going into a tournament cold, I would probably play the Smothers over the Edicts.


P.P.S.-I think you can still do a 4c manabase with wasteland--->-2 Island, -1 fetch--->+3 Tundra...letting you add things like stp md, or med. mage sb? Just a thought.

Maybe, but I still think early game mana consistency trumps versatility and the risks of color-screw in the long run. But I'll freely admit my bias in being conservative when it comes to pushing colors.


The best arguments against Jace that I see, are that he draws cards slowly when compared to fact or fiction, and is vulnerable in situations when you are facing massive creature hordes. People say that Jace seems like a "win-more" card, but really, Jace is just like standstill.

I think that's the problem. You don't really need more than 4 Standstill effects. But I've only tried the one when trying to plug that nebulous 60th card slot above. Maybe I should just add a Street Wraith. :)

Really, I haven't done enough testing with Jace to say anything conclusive, just that it never feel necessary when I played him over the weekend.

[mercenarybdu]

Interesting about how far a deck could go when it it rarely heard of by the majority or rarely understood. I never knew that it could spand into 5 color assortments after so many failed attempts.

But this is sure enlightening indeed.

[TopGun]

Wow, 0-7 is a freaking beating. Sorry to hear that. I've played the match a few times and nothing in my experience would lead me to believe that the match is less than 50-50. For one, you should have 3-4 Stifles between the maindeck and sideboard. Counterbalance is an enormous nuisance for any storm combo deck (short of Dragonstorm, for whatever's that worth); Tarmogoyf is a frightfully fast clock; and you have enough token sweepers in the main that you should have one in hand when you need it. Depending on the current configuration of Vorosh, I'll also board in BEBs for Burning Wish and Pyroblast. They at least pitch to FoW, if nothing else.

Ya, that was all game 1 games...not matches.


I covered the match-up a bit toward the end of the article (linked on the first page), though it isn't terribly exhaustive summary.

Yeah, I kinda lied above. On my off-line list, I have 2x Stifle in the Edict/Smother slots; and in real life version of the deck, I have 2x Smother. It's largely a metagame call; you'll need to do a bit of customization everytime you take the deck out for a spin. Going into a tournament cold, I would probably play the Smothers over the Edicts.

I think vs. thresh you do have a lot of ways to deal with geese, and goyfs are what you really want to take out if both are on board...but either smother or edict work out ok in my testing.


Maybe, but I still think early game mana consistency trumps versatility and the risks of color-screw in the long run. But I'll freely admit my bias in being conservative when it comes to pushing colors.

I can see not having an island wasted, or having an extra fetchland early would be more consistent. Power is cool too though. :tongue:

[frogboy]

full disclosure: Unlike Bardo, I make spell lists THEN land lists, and am not at all gunshy about running four or five colors.

but if you're going to add white, you need to stay at eight fetchlands minimum, and probably want to add some number of windswept heaths as well. The more womanish among you* can then play a basic Forest so that you have to worry about getting your Goyfs Extirpated instead of your green source, and the more awesome among you will have more shuffle effects for your top. I actually would play ten or twelve fetchlands and cut some duals if I were to actually set out to do battle.

*wuvu Dan

[TopGun]

Played some more games against TES...went a lot better. It's tons easier when they don't get a 1st turn swarm every time, and you do eventually get a CB.

Played some more games against goblins...seems like a decent if not good matchup...should be good matchup post board.

Still winning vs. thresh. Games are usually pretty close, but end up with LS in total control. I think it comes down to CB being incredible vs. them...and it doesn't hit our 3's-->deed, crucible, ee...or mishra's.

Well, enough about what you probably already knew. What are the other decks that are doing the best lately? It looks like maybe dreadnought decks and ichorid? Anything else? Or is it pretty impossible to get a non-region general meta-breakdown?

Thanks,
-TG