Combo versus Countertop

[Tacosnape]

Counterbalance / Countertop has quickly become the nightmare of Storm Combo decks.

Thus far the answers that most combo decks have presented are fourfold:

A. Lose to Counterbalance.
B. Have the ability to combo off faster than Counterbalance can get set up.
C. Have a combo that doesn't get stopped by Counterbalance.
D. Remove Counterbalance from / Keep Counterbalance from hitting the board.

So here are the questions for discussion.

1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?

2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)

3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?

4. What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?

5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?

[Dilettante]

1) Option A is viable in my local metagame. I only see one player between the two places I play now that regularly plays Counter/Top. But if I play outside of here... I get ready for it.
2) I use TES... but I have to get ready for Dragon Stompy and people who love them some Gaddock Teeg. Thus, I do something stupid: I run 4x Pernicious Deed in sideboard. It dances around Counterbalance... no one is silly enough to board in their Pithing Needles for 1 card when it doesn't affect the combo engine usually... since they are packing their hate for the combo engine... and it clears multiple annoyances against DS if I can drop it before a BM effect. Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 2 Trini sucks. Of course, if they shoot for BM, I shoot for a EtWgasm. I can still feed them to my Chrome Moxes because I tend to need black mana more than anything else...

I'm experimenting with simply just packing 2 more EtW or Tendrils in sideboard (my 6 free slots) for more options against counters/chant. Let them feed it and be less reliant on tutors... because people get used to keeping the Top at 2, considering anything not labeled Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish to be a ploy.

3) I'd still play TES. I can dance around the hate a bit.

4) Krosan Grip... if you were focused purely on Counterbalance.

5) After looking at Bardo's numbers... I'd take Ichorid or SI to a tournament that doesn't cut to Top 8... and TES to one that does.

[Phantom]

A. Lose to Counterbalance.
B. Have the ability to combo off faster than Counterbalance can get set up.
C. Have a combo that doesn't get stopped by Counterbalance.
D. Remove Counterbalance from / Keep Counterbalance from hitting the board.


1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?


1) Not in a standard meta when the most played deck in the meta (Thresh) is running it up and down, and the second-ish most played deck (Landstill) is occasionally packing it.



2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)


2) Not to my knowledge.


3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?

3) Not sure. I'd probably learn play the deck that beats CB, but loses to Fanatic since CB/Top decks tend to pack a ton of cards that hurt combo (and can dig for them fast), not just CB/Top.


4. What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?

4) Krosan Grip I suppose. I've always liked spells with X in them too like Explosives and Remand. Daze is great at stopping CB since blue players will want to set the engine up ASAP against other blue players. I honestly think they should split their strategy if possible.


5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?

5) I tend to go more by results and less by gut when it comes to combo, so I think it's Ichorid, which has been performing well lately, probably because it beats Counter Balance.

[Cavius The Great]

This brings up an important concern that I have, thank you Tacosnape. Is Krosan Grip worth splashing green over, or is it wiser to stay a color short and run something incolor such as Disenchant? Keeping the Grips, is debatable logic, but maybe even necessary if you feel that it is an essentially card for your metagame or the deck in general. My main question being, is it worth splashing green for Krosan Grip?

[Illissius]

Enduring Ideal could be built to withstand Counterbalance (using acceleration which doesn't have to be played directly before the Ideal itself, i.e. not rituals), and doesn't give a shit about Fanatic, but Force is going to be difficult.

[Bahamuth]

B. TES basically does this. TES certainly doesn't auto-lose to FoW, and it has a pretty consistent turn 2-3 kill, making it usually faster than Cb/Top

C. Beside Ichorid (and I don't think this is really a pure combo deck, it's more like aggro-combo) I can't think of any really. I've seen tendrils combo win trough CB/Top by playing a bunch of threshed Cabal Rituals, but this requires a lot of time to set up. The same goes for Solidarity.

D. I like both Spell Snare and Wipe Away to defend myself against CounterTop. The decks that can use these card are mainly Solidarity and Fetchland Tentdrils. I'm not sure how well Fetchland Tendrills performs vs. aggro-control running CounterTop, but I do know that Solidarity has a very hard time beating it, especially because the Counterbalance is usually combined with a couple of backup counters.

[Dilettante]

This brings up an important concern that I have, thank you Tacosnape. Is Krosan Grip worth splashing green over, or is it wiser to stay a color short and run something incolor such as Disenchant? Keeping the Grips, is debatable logic, but maybe even necessary if you feel that it is an essentially card for your metagame or the deck in general. My main question being, is it worth splashing green for Krosan Grip?

If I was running SI... I wouldn't. It's a blorf deck that fundamentally goes off faster than TES and Ichorid. It's a win or a train wreck.

Besides... it is probably he least vulnerable deck to Countertop since it tends to draw into win-conditions and has a slope from 0-4 that's fairly balanced.

[Thehunter820]

1. I would say option A is viable because most of the people I play dont have Counterbalance, and the local Meta is consistent stack matches

2. No

3. Not to sure on that one, but i'd probly have to go with a deck that would lose to mogg fanatic as you'd be facing more cb/top.

4. Krosan Grip. Force of Will or Daze. I'd probably go one way or the other.

5. I'd probly say Ichorid or Belcher, they tend to have the most wins from what I've seen, but Ichorid brings in more victories.

[Phantom]

Well, something that bears mentioning is that usually the decks that suffer to CB/Top, also suffer to the hate in Dragon Stompy and Stax, which both appear to be on the rise.

[Tacosnape]

Well, something that bears mentioning is that usually the decks that suffer to CB/Top, also suffer to the hate in Dragon Stompy and Stax, which both appear to be on the rise.

Not necessarily. I can eat Stax alive with Solidarity (Barring the occasional Stax god-draw which beats anything ever) and slightly edge threat-light Dragon Stompy due to Force / Remand / Rebuild. Hydroblasting Pit Dragons helps too, and being able to go off through Trinisphere once I hit 5 lands is neat.

But Solidarity against Counter-top packing Aggro Control is generally a massacre.

[Cavius The Great]

If I was running SI... I wouldn't. It's a blorf deck that fundamentally goes off faster than TES and Ichorid. It's a win or a train wreck.

Besides... it is probably he least vulnerable deck to Countertop since it tends to draw into win-conditions and has a slope from 0-4 that's fairly balanced.

Who said I was talking about SI? Am I suddenly the SI guy now? :wink: Jokes aside, I was actually debating whether to splash green for Grips in Nourishing Lich or to cut down a color and just run Disenchant becuase Chalice is my main concern not Counterbalance in particular. It's debatable though, what do you guys think? Oh and, Nourishing Lich has a really, really good Thresh matchup, even when facing Krosan Grips on the opposite side. :wink:

[GreenOne]

1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?

It really depends on meta. If your meta is 40% counterbalance decks then no (and you should probably not playing non-ichorid combos), if the meta is CB-light then just slalom it FTW.


2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)

If this could be done consistently, this combo should be banned. It would have an unfair matchup against everything in the field. Sure, it's possible to do it with many combos. You'll sometimes have the orim's chant protected turn 1 win, but not always. However, the opponent would not always have the 4 card combo cited (FoW+blue card+Counterbalance+Top)


3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?

Belcher is quite resilent to CB (8 spirit guides FTW!), but loses to a lot of other cards.
There's Illusion-Donate, I guess. And Kiki+Pestermite. And lot of other janky stuff.


4. (a) What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? (b) What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? (c) Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?

(a) Krosan Grip for sure, but it's also in a bad color for combo. Wipe away is probably a better suite in combo decks. Someone can probably play the free Tranquillity that makes the opponent gain 6 life too. Pernicious Deed can be good too in Control-Combo decks like Aluren.
(b) in current combo decks there are 5 ways, depending on what are you playing: FoW, Remand, Spell Snare, CB and REB/Pyroblast.
(c) You can do it. Some versions of Fetchland Tendrils are playing both REBs and Wipe Away, Solidarity plays FoW, Remand, Cunning Wish ->Wipe Away, and boards in Wipe Aways and Spell Snares.


5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?

TES, Ichorid and Fetchland Tendrils are candidates. Ichorid steals A LOT of g1, but grave hate is huge, and the aggro matchup is not that great. Storm combo has the great advantage of aggro=bye and it's, right now, somewhat resilent to Fow, Stifle and CB.

Note that if the opponent has only CB without an active Top, a Storm player can work through it. Well, sometimes can even do it with the active Top using Empty the Warrens.

[Phantom]

Not necessarily. I can eat Stax alive with Solidarity (Barring the occasional Stax god-draw which beats anything ever) and slightly edge threat-light Dragon Stompy due to Force / Remand / Rebuild. Hydroblasting Pit Dragons helps too, and being able to go off through Trinisphere once I hit 5 lands is neat.

But Solidarity against Counter-top packing Aggro Control is generally a massacre.

Well, I was speaking more generally, and in general decks that get hit by CB are running a lot of spells from 0-2 CC which are going to get hurt at least by Chalice and Trini.

Plus, does anyone still play Solidarity?

[Bahamuth]

Plus, does anyone still play Solidarity?

Yeah, it's pretty dead really. I still play it anyway, because I feel it isn't really that much of a bad choice in the meta right now.

I'd say TES is the strongest combo around now. It has great average speed, it's very consistent thanks to the cantrips and it does quite well vs. blue decks.

[B.C.]

Am I suddenly the SI guy now?

No, that's me. My strategy against decks packing Counterbalance is option B and option D. Postboard against a blue control deck, SI probably goldfishes at turn 3-4 (just an estimate, I don't have any data), but still has the ability to go off turn 1 or 2, which would be option B. Most likely, though, I would disrupt the opponent with Duress and Therapy, then (assuming they don't topdeck a fortuitous Counterbalance) go off when I feel fairly confident it will work (option D). I often have Naturalize in my board, but I wouldn't even bring it in against blue control. If they have Counterbalance down, it's probably already to late.

[Tosh]

A. Lose to Counterbalance.
B. Have the ability to combo off faster than Counterbalance can get set up.
C. Have a combo that doesn't get stopped by Counterbalance.
D. Remove Counterbalance from / Keep Counterbalance from hitting the board.

One thing I would like to point out is that 'A' should read "Lose to Counter/Top" because it's very possible to still combo out if they're just blind CB-ing.


1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?
If 'A' is revised as I suggested, I think it is a still viable option as long as the metagame isn't too CB/Top dense.


2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)
Not 100% consistently but it is entirely possible (I believe TES is the best at this one).


3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?
In addition to Mogg Fanatic, GY hate period (LotV, Crypt, & Jailer). I abstain from the 2nd part of the question.


4. What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?
Destroy: KGrip, Seals (Primordium or Cleansing), or Wipe Away (more or less).
Counter: FoW, REB, Spell Snare
I think the best course of action regarding the CB/Top problem is dedicating to one or the other. I think destroying is better because you don't have to have it in your hand when they play it (which means more slots need to be dedicated to it which then weakens the combo).


5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?
I'm not sure which is best but the one that has put up the best results lately is TES.

[emidln]

1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?

It's viable, but it isn't necessary. TES and Fetchland Tendrils do this very well, but also include ways of potentially dealing with a resolved Counterbalance. These strategies range from split-second removal to playing through a counterbalance in the midgame (pretty easily done, especially if the opponent lacks a SDT). Included therein are red blasts and targeted discard.


2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)

Yes. By played 8 blue cantrips and 4 chants you stand a reasonable chance of winning turn 2 through Force of Will in Fetchland Tendrils. The alternate here is the ability to find either Mystical Tutor and/or Grim Tutor and attempt to resolve one in response to a Counterbalance coming down (or the next turn in the case of Grim Tutor) to find the maindeck Wipe Away.


3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?

Fetchland Tendrils with 2 Grim Tutor, maindeck Wipe Away, with Tropical Island and Bayou maindeck and sideboard Trygon Predator/Krosan Grip in the Sudden Death/Wipe Away slots.


4. What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?

The best way to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance is Krosan Grip. The most effective way without splashing green is Wipe Away followed up by Rushing River then REB/Serenity/Echoing Truth/any number of cards that are routinely hosed by CB that may, situationally, resolve. Trygon Predator is somewhere between Wipe Away and Rushing River against most Counterbalance decks.

The best way to keep Counterbalance from resolving is to win the game before it is played. The next best way would be either counter it REB/Pyroblast it as it is played or Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy it away before it can be played. These are about equal in effectiveness although REB/Pyroblast have a slight benefit of potentially killing a Counterbalance that's already on the table if you catch your opponent off guard.

I don't think there's a reason to not play either Wipe Away or Krosan Grip in the sideboard, with a strong reason to play Wipe Away maindeck if your deck can support it (through Merchant Scroll or Mystical Tutor). Given that most combo decks played today have a FT of somewhere around 2, it's not unreasonable for a combo deck to be able to both win before CB hits the table or respond to one efficiently if it does. Also, almost every combo deck played today (the exception being Belcher and non-black Spring Tide) can play targetted discard (Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy) in addition to Wipe Away or Krosan Grip if necessary. Combo decks such as Breakfast and Fetchland Tendrils also have the option of Trygon Predator.


5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?

Fetchland Tendrils. It is easily molded into personal playstyles and can be configured in virtually any fashion for any metagame. Entire colors are easily switched out as the metagame dictates turning decent matchups into virtual byes through selection of colors and configuration of metagame slots in the maindeck and sideboard.

The common sideboard plans allow for near invulnerability to Counterbalance and Stax/Chalice-aggro while maintaining all the advantages that a Ponder/Brainstorm deck has against discard and that storm combo has against aggro. Decks like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid receive splash hate in the form of Wipe Away and Extirpate while still contending with a consistent two to three turn clock. Loam and Survival strategies relying on permanents like Chalice/Leyline/Crypt/EE often run afoul of the plentiful basic lands and Serenity in the sideboard.

Fetchland Tendrils is the enemy storm combo deck's worst nightmare with many builds packing 3-4 Orim's Chants main along with 4 Mystical Tutor and 7-8 cantrips to find them, while bringing in more Chants, Abeyance(s), Echoing Truth, Extirpate (common sideboard choice lately) and Thoughtseize/Duress. Add in the ability to gain card advantage off Dark Confidant and you have a nightmare match for the pseudo-mirror.

[Citrus-God]

Or you can play Ichorid; that gets around CounterTop and then loses to the Sideboard.

[Lego]

I'm going to go ahead and reveal the secret tech: Annul. Play 4 of them. They're good against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Engineered Explosives, Rule of Law, whatever it is that's good against your deck.

[Cavius The Great]

I'm going to go ahead and reveal the secret tech: Annul. Play 4 of them. They're good against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Engineered Explosives, Rule of Law, whatever it is that's good against your deck.

Do you maindeck them, Evn? I've always kept mine in the SB.

[emidln]

I'm going to go ahead and reveal the secret tech: Annul. Play 4 of them. They're good against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Engineered Explosives, Rule of Law, whatever it is that's good against your deck.

Serenity is marginally harder to hit with Counterbalance and routinely generates card advantage. It also has the advantage of letting you play stuff on your main phase.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm going to go ahead and reveal the secret tech: Annul. Play 4 of them. They're good against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Engineered Explosives, Rule of Law, whatever it is that's good against your deck.
Is hitting Chalice@0, EE@0, Deed, Trinisphere, Rule of Law more important than hitting Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Counterspell, Hymn to Tourach, Echoing Truth, Abeyance, and I suppose the occasional Tarmogoyf, Burning Wish or Standstill when you have to buy time?

(EDIT: In the case it's not clear, I'm comparing Annul vs. Spell Snare)


That's an actual question to everyone, by the way. I'm mostly awful with combo.

[Pulp_Fiction]

A great way to crush Countertop with combo is to go with a Man-Plan or a sort-of Man-Plan in the combo sideboard. Given the nature of combo, sometimes it just wins turn 1 on the play, other times it is forced to go off after a turn 2 Counterbalance hits the table next to the Sensei's Diving Top which was cast turn 1. It honestly is next to impossible to win against Countertop with combo, now you can build up marginal storm and cast an Empty the Warrens for like 8 and win that way, but that usualy requires drawing into the 1-2 copies of Empty in your deck. A randomly drawn Belcher often has the same effect, its combo, sometimes it does just win. But generally if I have Spirit Guides and Artifacts in my hand facing Countertop, I scoop em up. No point. Last week at my local tournament (I split in the finals with kabal) I played 2x Thresh decks with Countertop and I was running B.C.'s 2x Land SI build. My sideboard was a sort of Man-Plan. It consisted of:

4x Tomb of Urami (MVP this card is REALLY good against control)
4x Tomb Stalker
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
(hint: when playing against Countertop all 15x come in)

Now from what I have tested this utterly destroys Thresh Countertop trash but it just turns Dragon Stompy and Stax into an almost autoloss. In my meta Countertop.dec outnumber Stax and Stompy by around 4-1. And yes, the deck has no artifact removal and will generally lose to those decks, but this thread is about combo VS Countertop not combo VS Trinisphere, CotV nightmare stuff.

[emidln]

Is hitting Chalice@0, EE@0, Deed, Trinisphere, Rule of Law more important than hitting Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Counterspell, Hymn to Tourach, Echoing Truth, Abeyance, and I suppose the occasional Tarmogoyf, Burning Wish or Standstill when you have to buy time?

That's an actual question to everyone, by the way. I'm mostly awful with combo.

I usually play 4 classes of anti-hate cards:

Anti-discard: Dark Confidant is the only thing I ever side in

Proactive: Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Xantid Swarm, Defense Grid, Duress, and Thoughtseize all fall under this category

Hosers: Serenity, Pernicious Deed, Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Trygon Predator, Pyroclasm

General Removal: Wipe Away, Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Krosan Grip, Chain of Vapor, Sudden Death, Extirpate

The differences between my proactive category and the others are fairly obvious. I classify Hosers as cards that destroy entire strategies. These cards can hose entire decks providing massive card advantage on the order of 4 for 1 trades. The Hosers that I focus on with combo tend to be things that can defeat both the artifact and enchantment lock pieces found in Stax, Chalice-aggro, and Loam control.


My sideboard right now for combo looks like:

3-4 anti-discard slots (usually dark confidant)
3-8 hosers
2-3 proactive
3-6 general removal
0-1 alternate win condition

I tend to err on the side of more general removal so that I can side in specific general removal in different matchups instead of relying on ETruth/Chain of Vapor to deal with everything equally well.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Serenity is marginally harder to hit with Counterbalance and routinely generates card advantage. It also has the advantage of letting you play stuff on your main phase.How so? I thought that two was the second most common Counterbalance slot, hence why most people's Counterbalance anwsers cost three.

[Whit3 Ghost]

How so? I thought that two was the second most common Counterbalance slot, hence why most people's Counterbalance anwsers cost three.
Annul/REB costs one.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Annul/REB costs one.I'm aware. I'm questioning Serenity, which is only useful when Counterbalance is out and ready to counter.

[emidln]

I'm aware. I'm questioning Serenity, which is only useful when Counterbalance is out and ready to counter.

Annul doesn't allow you to play Ponder/Confidant turn 1 which in turn slows down your development letting them get more tempo cards online. Given that the best way to fight the deck is to stop the cantrip/draw engine, playing with Annul is actually working against you. If you're playing Ponder/Confidant, then you are actively working towards finding Wipe Away/Rushing River/Krosan Grip/Serenity as well as assembling your combo. Annul is also infinitely worse if drawn after the fact (obviously), while Serenity is potentially useful with proper baiting or if they don't happen to have a way to manipulate their Library. Serenity is further better as a general solution to problem artifacts and enchantments since it can hit multiple things without targetting them while being largely immune to early chalice when your opponent is on the play.

[GreenOne]

Senity is useful even when you know you're comboing next turn and are afraid of a possible CB coming too.

[Bryant Cook]

Counterbalance / Countertop has quickly become the nightmare of Storm Combo decks.

Thus far the answers that most combo decks have presented are fourfold:

A. Lose to Counterbalance.
B. Have the ability to combo off faster than Counterbalance can get set up.
C. Have a combo that doesn't get stopped by Counterbalance.
D. Remove Counterbalance from / Keep Counterbalance from hitting the board.

So here are the questions for discussion.

1. Is option "A" viable, assuming you can devise a combo build to present a fairly strong game against almost every deck that doesn't pack it?

2. Can any combo deck that doesn't fall into category C fit into category B without losing to Force of Will? (Time needed to set up for Chants/Abeyances/Determined matters.)

3. Does a combo deck in C exist that doesn't get hurt by Mogg Fanatic? What combo deck would you play if you were guaranteed to face both Counterbalance and Mogg Fanatic every tournament?

4. What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to get rid of a resolved Counterbalance? What are the absolute best ways in Legacy to keep a Counterbalance from resolving? Is it possible for a combo deck to split its strategy here, or does it need to commit to a course of either removal or prevention and just lose if the plan fails?

5. What combo deck is the strongest in Legacy, right now, and why?

1.) There's plenty of storm decks that just run over the field against decks that don't play blue for countermagic or black for heavy discard. This being said some of these storm decks can just play through counterbalance.

2.) There is Cephalid Breakfast.

3.) Nope. I'd play TES and do play TES in every event that I can. I know how to play around and play through counterbalance.

Well, playing around counter/top is very, very difficult. Much more than Island/Ponder, next turn Balance. I'll explain the easier answer first; what you want to do is bait. If they have Balance but no top - Play cards, don't sit there with your hand down your pants. You want that Threshold player to reveal, wait until the time comes to Blast that counterbalance or Burning Wish. They're bound to hit something bad at some point. I personally like baiting with 0cc artifacts or cantrips. With counter/top it's much more difficult, like above you want to bait. However, the goal is to get them to put top on top of their deck. In response to the tap, blast the counterbalance. If you're truely deeply afraid of Force, use Chant. Burning Wish is a much easier answer to counter/top because they always have a 1cc card, they don't always have a 2cc card. As for Daze, try not to walk into it but don't be afraid. Play that Lotus Petal, Mox or hold that SSG.

Counterbalance is just a bitch, you have to practice against it a lot to get good against it, also drawing the win conditions is great. Just throw cards into the counterbalance, then ETW or Tendrils.

4.) The best way to get around a resolved Counterbalance is a Krosan Grip or Wipe Away. Best way to keep it from resolving is an REB or Pyroblast. It could do both. It'd just be a lot of work.

5.) TES, because it wins the combo mirror; I've tested combo mirrors a lot of times. Not to mention it doesn't care about anything not packing blue besides Dragonstompy (Which I've only ever faced twice in large events). Not really enough of it to be a concern. Even if it ever did become a concern, TES has up to 6-7 maindeck slots that are interchangeable. Not to mention a wishboard and/or 7-8 sideboard slots.

[Tacosnape]

One day when you're incredibly bored I'm going to have to make you give me TES lessons, because I'm pretty sure the deck's more powerful than the power I'm getting out of it from playing it.

[Lego]

One day when you're incredibly bored I'm going to have to make you give me TES lessons, because I'm pretty sure the deck's more powerful than the power I'm getting out of it from playing it.

I've felt this way for a while. I'm pretty sure the deck is more powerful than the power most people are getting out of it. But I'm still not convinced that it's the best Storm deck in the format.

[Phantom]

I would be interested to see a testing session between a good TES pilot, and a good Thresh pilot where half the games are played without CB, and half with the card in hand to begin every game just too see how drastic the effect of the card is on the matchup.

[Whit3 Ghost]

5.) TES, because it wins the combo mirror.
Do you? You were 50/50 against a Fetchland Tendrils list that only ran 2 MD Chant last time we tested. Have you improved your Breakfast matchup or something?

[Bryant Cook]

Do you? You were 50/50 against a Fetchland Tendrils list that only ran 2 MD Chant last time we tested. Have you improved your Breakfast matchup or something?

Yes, when we tested you were playing the same list thats out now. The three mystical, three chant, street wraith list. Is it not the same anymore? I'll gladly do it again. As for the breakfast match-up, it's much better with the new sideboard plan.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Do you? You were 50/50 against a Fetchland Tendrils list that only ran 2 MD Chant last time we tested. Have you improved your Breakfast matchup or something?

When played right, Fetchland Tendrils should wipe the board with TES. I'm not seeing how it went 50/50 unless someone played Tendrils poorly or TES got damn good hands...

Counterbalance < Wipe Away...'Nuff Said...

[Jak]

So preboard CB means you lose, right? I was doing some testing last night and it was impossible just to get through a CB wall. I used Petals to see what the top card was and it was a land. I couldn't go off because my mana sources were LEDs. Next turn, I do the same thing. It was a 2 on top. I play out my artifact mana and wait until next turn. Next turn, cast IT and it gets countered by CB. Burning Wish for Tranquility would have been awesome, but I doubt BW would have gotten through.

Are there any preboard tips? Did I make the right plays?

Also, Bryant, what is your current SB? You don't have to post it or even tell me, but I am just curious. PM me?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Yes, when we tested you were playing the same list thats out now. The three mystical, three chant, street wraith list. Is it not the same anymore? I'll gladly do it again. As for the breakfast match-up, it's much better with the new sideboard plan.
I'm down.

Btw, we've never run less then 4 Mystical in that deck ever, I'm assuming you mean Ponder. My list mained Bob and only had 2 chants.

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, Fetchland Tendrils runs one MD. You in response to the petal being countered with Mystical Tutor, Grab Wipe Away (were they out of mana? Was Top out?), and preferrably cycle a Wraith to grab it at eot so you get ur card draw next upkeep, and go off (on the play it'll be ur turn 3, you should be able to, on the draw it'll be ur turn 2, and you could possibly go off, but that's assuming they drop a turn 1 top and a turn 2 CB; that seems a ever so slightly lucky). If you don't have Wraith, you still have the Wipe Away. Good enough. I'm not saying it is always easy, but I'm also not saying that I autolose to a CB game 1. Not by a longshot. G2 and G3 only get better. SBed Wipe Aways, then there's the option also of Echoing Truth (risky, I know as it's CB's "magic" number 2), and the ever-potent Serenity as well.

Oh, I forgot about Chants and Abeyances; bluff with one turn 1. It's either a timewalk or a wasted Force on their part. Hell, they may even have to toss a CB to it (I know, don't ever count on players being bad). But honestly. FT runs between 8 and 10 tutors, 7 fetches, 7 cantrips NOT counting a set of Wraiths. Finding answers just is not an issue at this point.

--DC

[Jak]

No, Fetchland Tendrils runs one MD. You in response to the petal being countered with Mystical Tutor, Grab Wipe Away (were they out of mana? Was Top out?), and preferrably cycle a Wraith to grab it at eot so you get ur card draw next upkeep, and go off (on the play it'll be ur turn 3, you should be able to, on the draw it'll be ur turn 2, and you could possibly go off, but that's assuming they drop a turn 1 top and a turn 2 CB; that seems a ever so slightly lucky). If you don't have Wraith, you still have the Wipe Away. Good enough. I'm not saying it is always easy, but I'm also not saying that I autolose to a CB game 1. Not by a longshot. G2 and G3 only get better. SBed Wipe Aways, then there's the option also of Echoing Truth (risky, I know as it's CB's "magic" number 2), and the ever-potent Serenity as well.

Oh, I forgot about Chants and Abeyances; bluff with one turn 1. It's either a timewalk or a wasted Force on their part. Hell, they may even have to toss a CB to it (I know, don't ever count on players being bad). But honestly. FT runs between 8 and 10 tutors, 7 fetches, 7 cantrips NOT counting a set of Wraiths. Finding answers just is not an issue at this point.

--DC

I was talking about TES. It was just CB, but I couldn't go off if he revealed anything with 0 or 2cc.

[emidln]

Yes, when we tested you were playing the same list thats out now. The three mystical, three chant, street wraith list. Is it not the same anymore? I'll gladly do it again. As for the breakfast match-up, it's much better with the new sideboard plan.

We've always had 4 Mystical. Many, many, many moons ago we played 4 Dark Confidant main over extra Chants, Ponders, and Draw4s/Grim Tutors. The latest lists play (in a general metagame):

4 Chant
3-4 Ponder
0-2 Draw4

With 1-2 Abeyance and an Extirpate in the sideboard.

[Pulp_Fiction]

How are we determining the best combo deck? Speed, resiliency, consistency, or a deck which combines all of these elements the best? Because all of the top Legacy combo decks consist of these elements, but each of them are better than the other one in their respective area. Example, SI wins the speed category, TES and Fetchland Tendrils battle between resiliency, and I would argue Fetchland Tendrils is more consistent.