[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Extending a Hand

[TrialByFire]

Newest feature by Mr. Nightmare, Adam Barnello. Good article with a different look at Legacy through Extended. I'm a nitpicker though, so I just have to let you know that in the TES/TEPS part of the article, you said how you cannot play Lotus Blooms revealed off Mind's Desire. Actually you can. It's pretty much Black Lotus in that situation. Other than that, I thought it was great.

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15629.html)

[Nightmare]

Newest feature by Mr. Nightmare, Adam Barnello. Good article with a different look at Legacy through Extended. I'm a nitpicker though, so I just have to let you know that in the TES/TEPS part of the article, you said how you cannot play Lotus Blooms revealed off Mind's Desire. Actually you can. It's pretty much Black Lotus in that situation. Other than that, I thought it was great.

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15629.html)I said in LEGACY you don't have the ability to do that.
Because you can't play Desire...

[PhanTom_lt]

Another nitpick: Both Nimble Mongoose and Deep Analysis are still legal in Extended. Although they don't make much of a dent there, the option is still available.

[Nightmare]

That's a nitpick I'll accept. I'm actually kinda pissed at both me and my editor for not catching that.

I have no idea why people don't play Nimble Mongoose in Extended. It's fucking rediculous in a sea of Shackles and Threads.

[Osse]

There's alot of points in your article that I don't agree with unfortunately, and I'm sure I'm not the only one;

1) Nimble Mongoose is available, and isn't any worse than it is in Legacy as for what it's meant to do (Everyone runs Shackles and Threads, untargetability should be better). But it's not played. Reason being that he's still a 3/3 beater. He's not going to get through any guys that matter. Sure, he can beat up an Isamaru, but that guy is just going to overwhelm you anyways, and having something else in that matchup, like Trinket Mage or something, will do the same, and pull up that Explosives. I've argued this alot lately, and it's pretty simple. CounterTop is Tarmogoyf with Shroud, it's that simple. Do you really think a player with an active CounterTop is going to let Swords through? Doubtful. I'm pretty tired of people playing Mongoose and then losing to decks that just run bigger guys. I don't think I've ever been in an extended match wanting Nimble Mongoose over any of the other choices. Ever.

2) CounterTop decks don't function the same way as they do here. They run more lands, a better manabase*, and have a somewhat slower gameplan. The primary win condition is Tarmogoyf, but they can easily win through Trinket Mage or stealing the opponent's guys, it's not that difficult once you gain control with CounterTop. They run a much better curve (3cc cards!) then any of the present 'Thresh' decks (I wish they'd start labeling thresh differently ;<). The CounterTop decks also run stuff that aren't cantrips. I've seen Thirst of Knowledge, Ancestral Visions, Dark Confidant. Are you really going to try to tell me that Ponder is better than any of those? Come on.

3) The manabases in Extended are by no means terrible. People ran Destructive Flow, Aggro Loam with Moons/Molten Rain, and still didn't place anyone in the top brackets. Reason being that the manabases will go through the hate. It's not that hard. Try building a control deck with a proper manabase in Legacy, you're never going to lose to Wastelands, and getting out of Moon isn't exactly difficult. Why would any CounterTop deck run cards like Moon and hurt itself just as much, if not more, than the opponent?

4) As mentioned, Deep Analysis is available. They just don't need it. Who are they really trying to race? And I should mention that Extended probably has more "These guys can go to the grave when I want" with STE being played, and Fanatic just as present, if not more, not to mention the likes of stuff like Hierarch and Baloth. I think the problem with Dredge is that people don't like fighting the hate or don't want to learn how to. I've lost to Dredge after extirpating and playing guys like Fanatic just because he always has outs. Always. It shouldn't be that much tougher in Legacy.

5) Not much to say in regards to TE(P)S, the decks are strong, but they're combo decks and I don't really think Orim's Chant is going to make TopLock much easier to get around.

6) I don't think Rock and Tombstone are very similiar. Gerard ran 1 draw card spell. One. Tombstone runs what, 7, with Witness Recursion? I think a more accurate port of Extended Rock is GBW Survival (TB has been putting up results with a list that's pretty strong). I am pleased to see Rock making somewhat of a Legacy impact though, where as before it was pretty much terrible. Oh, Brainstorm is definitely the best card in Legacy, no disagreement from me.

7) I think the Stompy deck is kind of silly, personally. And the closest thing I can compare it to in Legacy is all of the TombStompy decks, you're basically counting on the same thing, Big Dudes that hit fast and hard, and random little synergies that can make the deck more efficient.

[PhanTom_lt]

It takes a lot more time to reach Threshold in Extended. There was a very similar deck out there, but when you have to run Mishra's Bauble to do the cantripping part in addition to Ponder, you aren't in good shape. And until you reach Threshold, all of your guys, except Tarmogoyf, are subpar to theirs. Oh, and lack of Daze or other free counters also doesn't make Mongoose look better.
Deep Analysis is sometimes run in not-so-popular-now Heartbeat Desire/Dreams. However, Gaddock Teeg is there, and extended is where he's at his best.

[matelml]

Mongoose isn't any good without Brainstorm and Daze to fill the GY.

Edit: Someone already said it.

[Osse]

Mongoose isn't any good.

I agree. Jokes aside, I'll agree that without Daze and Brainstorm it makes Mongoose worse. But there's also less reason to need him as a 3/3 right away. I still think he's terrible though, and whether Threshold comes down later, he's still a 3/3 beater that doesn't get through Goyf. Just saying.

On another note, and I'd really appreciate an answer from Adam on this, among others; Why doesn't something like Deadguy see play in Extended? Or does it, and they're calling it something else?

[etrigan]

Moon Thresh
Suggested by Adam Barnello on 2008-03-30 as a potential deck for Legacy
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15629.html


Isn't that the exact list that was played by the Hatfields at Running GAGG?

Edit: Re: Deadguy. No Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, or Hymn to Tourach. Hell, no Phyrexian Negator either.

[Bovinious]

I liked this article, there was an adequate amount of discussion about Ichorid/Dredge, so good stuff. Nimble Mongoose isnt good in Extended for the reasons people said, it cant grow up very fast and is outclassed by Goyfs, stuff like Hierarch and Sower are just better, and Goyf obviously. Deadguy isnt played in Extended because its not even a good deck in Legacy where it has Dark Ritual and the like, but I suppose Rock decks kind of mimic the discard/control elements.

[matelml]

The most important card being Hymn.


Deadguy isnt played in Extended because its not even a good deck in Legacy
Very true.

[Wallace]

Good read, I really like the comparison between the two formats. I was looking to Build an extended Belcher deck for a while, it doesn't really work though. No LED, no ESG, and no land grant makes it really had to combo out. Good job Adam, I enjoyed reading this...

[Eldariel]

I played BW Deadguy in Extended for a season. Granted, it didn't place high in any high profile events, but it did punish the Extended manabases quite efficiently (the LD of choice was Rancid Earth) and I won a lot of local tournaments with it. Now, with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, it could actually be even better, but the metagame doesn't have that high curve decks anymore so I don't know. Still, the archetype simply didn't have a following back then and now it doesn't really have a metagame. Doran sort of takes the slot with more board control and less discard. The Braids-deck is probably the closest to a high-finishing Deadguy-style deck in Extended though.

[Nightmare]

On another note, and I'd really appreciate an answer from Adam on this, among others; Why doesn't something like Deadguy see play in Extended? Or does it, and they're calling it something else?
I don't pretend to be an expert (as you can see by my oversight on card legality), but I'd imagine the Rock decks are just strictly superior.


Isn't that the exact list that was played by the Hatfields at Running GAGG?
Yeah, and I gave them credit when I wrote the article. Not sure why their names weren't included.

[TrialByFire]

I said in LEGACY you don't have the ability to do that.
Because you can't play Desire...

Sorry, read it kind of fast. I guess I have no nitpicks then. Great article!

[Bryant Cook]

I liked the article, it was well rounded and made me think of porting a few decks. Not to mention I was name dropped. Oh yeah.

Edit: That sideboard is way outdated. BTW.

[Machinus]

Extended isn't similar to Legacy just because Extended players have realized how good Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance are. The formats are not any more comparable than they have ever been, which is not comparable.

But I guess it couldn't hurt to get more Extended players to try Legacy.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why do you [in addition to others] think Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy? I've seen and heard this stated multiple times with no justification.

[nastynate]

Why do you [in addition to others] think Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy? I've seen and heard this stated multiple times with no justification.

1. Brainstorm allows you to see three cards beyond those already in your hand, and choose to keep the best of them. It fixes your hand.

2 With fetch-lands it allows you to put things back that you don't want or need on your upcoming turns. It fixes your draws.

3. It allows you to protect your cards from discard effects, by putting them on top of your library in response. It makes duress, thoughtseize, and so forth less dangerous to your deck.

4. It allows you to dig for answers, such as force of will, at instant speed. It can pull your behind out of the fire.

5. The more powerful the cards in your deck, the more powerful it becomes. Legacy is a format loaded with powerful cards and running brainstorm makes it easier and more likely to see those cards every game. Brainstorm isn't the most broken card in Legacy (or any format in which it is legal), but it makes all your broken plays more likely. It adds consistency to powerful decks.

[Nihil Credo]

Why do you [in addition to others] think Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy? I've seen and heard this stated multiple times with no justification.
I invite anyone interested in answering this question to provide their definition of 'best' first. This will save us pages of aimless wandering. Thank you.

[Pinder]

Why do you [in addition to others] think Brainstorm is the best card in Legacy? I've seen and heard this stated multiple times with no justification.

It's a one-mana blue instant that says 'Draw 3 cards' on it. Historically those have been pretty good (http://magiccards.info/al/en/48.html).

And I know it's not as powerful as Ancestral, but it's pretty damn close for what it does. Sure, Brainstorm only nets you +1 CA overall because you put two back, but the key part here is that you can put any two back. As far as I know, Brainstorm is the only card for its cost that lets you see 3 new cards from the top of your library, and more importantly, keep all three of them if you want to. After a Brainstorm, you've seen three new cards, and gotten rid of the two worst cards in your hand. That's pretty ridiculous for 1 mana at instant speed. Add in a fetch, and you don't even have to worry about drawing the bad cards you put back. Almost literally, Brainstorm+Fetchland = Ancestral Recall.

So yeah, I think that's pretty good.

[Anusien]

It's a one-mana blue instant that says 'Draw 3 cards' on it. Historically those have been pretty good (http://magiccards.info/al/en/48.html).

And I know it's not as powerful as Ancestral, but it's pretty damn close for what it does. Sure, Brainstorm only nets you +1 CA overall because you put two back, but the key part here is that you can put any two back.
Brainstorm is not card advantage; you draw 3 and put 2 back, but Brainstorm costs you a card.

[Pinder]

Brainstorm is not card advantage; you draw 3 and put 2 back, but Brainstorm costs you a card.

I suppose this is true. But it still offers fantastic selection.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Almost literally, Brainstorm+Fetchland = Ancestral Recall.

The two cards do different things. Brainstorm + Fetch is card quality and Ancestral Recall is card advantage. Also, Brainstorm + Fetch will never be on the same power level as Ancestral Recall, as it requires 2 cards, and Recall is busted to the Nth degree. Standstill is a much closer card to AR, in terms of what they do, than Brainstorm/Fetch.

[Pinder]

The two cards do different things. Brainstorm + Fetch is card quality and Ancestral Recall is card advantage. Also, Brainstorm + Fetch will never be on the same power level as Ancestral Recall, as it requires 2 cards, and Recall is busted to the Nth degree. Standstill is a much closer card to AR, in terms of what they do, than Brainstorm/Fetch.

Another good point. I was more making reference to the fact that with Brainstorm and a Fetch you get to draw three cards, keep them, and not worry about your draws afterward, which is the parallel I was making with Ancestral. The difference here (and it's a valid one) is that Brainstorm+Fetch nets you zero actual card advantage, whereas Recall is stupid broken.

But just because Brainstorm can't generate the same sort of raw card advantage that Standstill or Recall can, doesn't mean it isn't as good, and it can do things that neither Recall or Standstill can do. I'll reference this post:



3. It allows you to protect your cards from discard effects, by putting them on top of your library in response. It makes duress, thoughtseize, and so forth less dangerous to your deck.


and add that the very same functionality lets you counter things via Counterbalance, as well.

Also, it pitches to Force. This isn't really important just for the sake pitching to Force, it's just that it happens to put Brainstorm into the most powerful color in Legacy.

So the comparison to Recall may be unwarranted because they preform essentially different functions (card quality vs. card advantage), but there's still no denying that Brainstorm has enough good qualities to make it one of the best, if not the best, card in Legacy.

[Bardo]

So the comparison to Recall may be unwarranted because they preform essentially different functions (card quality vs. card advantage), but there's still no denying that Brainstorm has enough good qualities to make it one of the best, if not the best, card in Legacy.

Mep. You should have left your argument as 'U = Draw three cards' = Awesome. In a format with a heavy load of fetchlands in most decks--it's as close to Ancestral as we're going to get.

Considering every other card in the Legacy, Brainstorm has led to more wins for me than any other card -- though I've had less than a year to play with Mr. T Gofy. ;)

[Bovinious]

Breakthrough is U, draw four cards, why isnt it getting any of yalls love? I kid I kid of course (or do I?), but srsly all this circle jerking about how you guys love Brainstorm is off-topic, I cant believe I of all people am the one saying this :wink:

lolololololololololol---frogboy

[Anusien]

Mep. You should have left your argument as 'U = Draw three cards' = Awesome. In a format with a heavy load of fetchlands in most decks--it's as close to Ancestral as we're going to get.

Considering every other card in the Legacy, Brainstorm has led to more wins for me than any other card -- though I've had less than a year to play with Mr. T Gofy. ;)
Force of Will has gotten me the most wins I think. Hard to tell. Top gets there a lot too.

Anyway, I was somewhat disappointed with the article. After the past three weeks being theory circlejerks, I was hoping for something raw and tested; I guess I had the wrong expectations.

No offense, but I think an article trying to gather tech for Legacy from Extended would be better written by someone more familiar with Extended. Threshold was actually a deck in Extended for a brief period of time (Flores covered it; I can't find the article and the SCG deck database is down atm). Not knowing Nimble Mongoose is in the format is just silly considering all printed Threshold cards are currently in Extended. It also seems like you're claiming Deep Analysis isn't legal in 1.x. You throw out random claims about Ritual Desire (TEPS). Seems like this is the kind of article most people hate: an article full of untested theories and comparisons that may or may not be true. Maybe the article isn't for me (I keep up with 1.x) and that's fine. Might have been worthwhile to talk about why Trinket Mage sees tons of 1.x play (was considered one of the best cards like time around, pre-Lorwyn) and yet almost none in Legacy. Or note that Extended NLU decks tend to have maybe 8 one-drops for Sensei's Divining Top instead of 16 or more in Legacy, and look at the comparison of the formats that way. NLU is so much more likely to counter a 3 with Cbalance than Legacy Thresh.

[mercenarybdu]

Splended article, wish you could do a video one of these days on your articles like what the Ferret did a few times.

Well work at it and we could finally hear from you from around the world.

[Maveric78f]

Cantrips are overrated. Brainstorm is probably the best of them, but it's overall very overrated. First of all, brainstorm costs 1. I know I'm reading the card, but everybody plays cantrips as if they were free. Secondly, brainstorm gets owned by most of the hate in the format (chalice, counterbalance). Thirdly, with no shuffle effect or dredging ability, it's really poor (which implies that stifle wrecks it bad too).

Brainstorm is certainly a good card, but not an auto-include in every blue deck contrarily to what a lot of people think. As a comparison, FoW is unavoidable in every 16+ (not counting the FoWs) blue cards decks.

[MattH]

I was hoping for something raw and tested; I guess I had the wrong expectations.
lololol

I liked the article but wish you'd done a little more with it. The best part was explaining the subtle but powerful impact STP has in explaining the differences between the formats.