[Deck] Eva White - B/W Suicide [Archive]

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 11:47 AM

First, what exactly is Deadguy Ale still doing on the Decks to Beat forum considering that it hasn't had a single top 8 in an year, much less in the past 10 tournaments?

Galroth, WHERE exactly is this modern Tombstalker Ale variant that subs out Confidant for the sake of Tombstalker you talk of?

I did a search of the whole Deadguy Ale thread, for Tombstalker, and I really only see a couple of people who brought up the possibility of running the card, and most others dismissing the suggestion off hand because it is antisnergic with the deck's namesake creature, Confidant.

The deadguy lists in the thread are nearly identical to what they were three years ago.

Deadguy Ale is named after Dark Confidant. From what I read, almost every build I've seen are running 4 Dark Confidant, 0 Tombstalker and 0 Negators.

You simply can't support both Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck imo.

But if you could point me to a mainstream build of Deadguy (ie. one several people are discussing or that won tournyes) that doesn't run Confidant and instead runs Tombstalker, I will agree to close this thread.

Honestly though, I think that such a mainstream build if it currently exists, differs so much from Deadguy that it really shouldn't share the name anymore.

Now can we please talk about the card choices themselves, thank you.

Cabal-kun

03-29-2008, 12:06 PM

I am curious as to why this deserves to be in the Established Decks Forum. I see no statements reflecting an optimized (you yourself are still considering other cards) and throughly tested (casual games in the past week holds very little water).

On top of that, there is no "thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions."

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 12:08 PM

That is a fair criticism and I agree with you completely.

I accidently posted it in the wrong forum, I had both forums open in different tabs for convenient viewing when I was browsing and hit the create thread in the wrong place.

I was honestly considering creating another thread in the developmental forum and deleting this but people already posted here.

If a mod wishes to move the thread to the developmental forum, I support that a 100%.

Which brings up another important point. WHAT exactly is Deadguy Ale still doing on the Decks to Beat forum considering that it hasn't had a single top 8 in the past 10 tournaments, and in fact the last top 8 it had was when Flash was still legal and the deck was a really teched out one meant to kill it? Doesn't that run counter to the rules of the Decks to Beat forum?

The whole forum classification thing doesn't make a lot of sense anymore. There's atleast a few dozen decks posted in the Established Forum that have neither matchup analysis nor any tournament history and that were never moved and IMO, decks should have one or the other to be here. Just going off of the first page, Tombstone is a perfect example.

And there's multiple well developed decks in the Developmental Forum that have been developed for years now, and that have a very thorough matchup analysis, that were never moved the Established Decks forum, Mono Black Pox (for example).

Now once again, can we talk about the card choices themselves and deck theory?

Do you see any thing you disagree with pertaining to my analysis of the Pros & Cons of running White versus running Green in this deck?

Hummingbird TG

03-29-2008, 01:18 PM

Galroth, WHERE exactly is this modern Tombstalker Ale variant that subs out Confidant for the sake of Tombstalker you talk of?

Um, right in the Deadguy Ale thread. Many people have posted builds, there should be several in the last page itself. Hardly my fault if you don't read the thread.

I did a search of the whole Deadguy Ale thread, for Tombstalker, and I really only see a couple of people who brought up the possibility of running the card, and most others dismissing the suggestion off hand because it is antisnergic with the deck's namesake creature, Confidant.

The deadguy lists in the thread are nearly identical to what they were three years ago.

Either you are joking, or are reading a different Deadguy thread from what I've been reading. The lists are far from identical. I'll find you a few examples, right here.

From the last page of the Deadguy Thread:

2xtombstalker
3xgrunt
4xconfidant
3xshade

4xsinkhole
4xvindicate
4xthougthseize
4xhymn

4xswords to plowshares

2xengineered explosives
3xsensei's divining top

4xwasteland
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
1xstronghold
1xgodless shrine
7xswamp

From the third last page:

5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker*
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TSP] Smallpox*
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top*

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle

Proposed Version of Deadguy Ale with Green, 4th last page of Deadguy Thread

22 land:
4 Delta
3 Mire
3 Bayu
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp

This ought to work, especially with petals...

4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Tombstalker
2 Shade

3 Seize
3 Duress
4 Hymn

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Smallpox

2 EE

4 Petal/accel of choice (you could probably get away with diamond here)

Average cc= 74/60 (I think i counted right) = 1.x = okay hit from bob with stalker.

SB:
2 EE
2 serenity
3 Kgrip
1 seize
1 duress
4 Leyline (?)
2 Dystopia

My B/w list, 5th last page:

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cursed Scroll

SB

4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

Enough examples yet? That's almost half the lists posted in the last 5 pages of the Deadguy thread, FYI. Next point?

Deadguy Ale is named after Dark Confidant. From what I read, almost every build I've seen are running 4 Dark Confidant, 0 Tombstalker and 0 Negators.

You simply can't support both Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck imo.

Also from the third last page of the Deadguy Ale thread:

You should be running 4 Tombstalkers, to be completely honest. He's amazing in this deck, and there's no reason "flipping him up with Confidant hurts" should be an excuse. I'm running 4 Top and 4 Confidant as my draw engine and have never come up with Tombstalker killing me from a flip. Most of the times where it would kill you, you've already lost anyways. I mean, most players won't let Confidant stick around unless they can win through it, where Tombstalker doesn't change anything either. If your confidant is killed, Your Tombstalker comes down a turn later, and you don't lose to that removal spell. Do you have Confidant and no Top? Well, you're probably winning, so taking 8 shouldn't be too much of a big deal. And even then, you can always 'sacrifice' the Confidant in an attack, or to Smallpox, or whatever.

The case for Tombstalker has been put forth by so many that personally I'd find it sufficient by just quoting their statements, but if you need any further explanation why Tombstalker can and is played in a deck running Confidant, feel free to take this to the Deadguy thread.

But if you could point me to a mainstream build of Deadguy (ie. one several people are discussing or that won tournyes) that doesn't run Confidant and instead runs Tombstalker, I will agree to close this thread.

Honestly though, I think that such a mainstream build if it currently exists, differs so much from Deadguy that it really shouldn't share the name anymore.

Now can we please talk about the card choices themselves, thank you.

I will point out to you the 'mainstream build's (if I can safely call them one, since people do discuss them, alright, even though there hardly is much discussion on the Deadguy threads) quoted above, and show you a build (scratch that, multiple builds) of Deadguy where it runs BOTH Confidant and Stalker, and is basically your deck (just that you don't run Confidant). Are we done?

I question how much homework into the Deadguy thread you actually did, though.

Oh, as to answer your white v. green question? Why not run both?

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 01:50 PM

Hummingbird, thank you very much for doing all that work. I appreciate it. But out of all those builds, can you show me a single one of them that actually looks similar enough to the build I posted that you can argue it's the same deck?

I think it's only fair to point out though that the closest deck that you could find out of that 68 page thread to what I posted still differs from my build by 13 cards!

You can find more than a couple of decks in burn threads that basically look like sligh, but does that mean Sligh doesn't deserve it's own thread.

When you are talking about a 68 page thread, of course there's going to be all sorts of builds posted.

So basically, if a couple of builds of Deadguy Ale look the same as traditional Deadguy but throw in 2 Tombstalker, is it still the same deck. Of course it is.

But then when a build cuts Deadguy, (the deck's namesake card) altogether and runs a full playset of Tombstalker, a full playset of Phyrexian Negator subs out E. Plague and Cursed Scroll and takes on a more aggressive strategy altogher., it's hard to argue that you're still talking about the same deck.

My point is that when people say Deadguy, they think 4 Confidant, Cursed Scroll, 0 Tombstalker. Nobody thinks 4 Phyrexian Negator, 4 Tombstalker, 0 Confidant etc. There is a reason why the opening post in the thread and most people in the thread run that sort of a build.

The mainstream versions of Deadguy, look nothing like the build being discussed here. Even the decks you posted looked very different from what's being discussed here. And they don't play like this either.

Of that whole thread, not a single build cut Confidant despite the massive dyssnergy between the two, not a single such build also runs a playset of Phyrexian Negator, I don't see a single build that is nearly as aggressive, which is my point.

I also find it interesting there is a lot more lists posted there that splash green for Goyf instead some well before Eva Green was ever posted, and yet you don't see every from Deadguy invading Eva Green and saying that deck should be discussed in Deadguy as well.

I'm done arguing about this. If any of you can indeed find me a mainstream or developed, or heck any build of Deadguy that is actually similar to the list I posted, I will happily close this thread. Till then you can't justify your point.

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 02:20 PM

as to answer your white v. green question? Why not run both?

Excellent question, and one that's on point too.

Here are my reasons why not...

1.) It dilutes the mana base and makes your early plays less consistent in a deck where being able to disrupt from the first turn on is absolutely critical.

2.) Goyf doesn't really add anything that you can't achieve just as well with Negator.

3.) Goyf has no evasion, and is rather small early on, the first time it hits is usually for 2 damage on the third turn. Where as, a first turn Ritual + Negator is an absolutely devastating play.

4.) At the end of the day, it's just another creature in a format very prepared for Goyf and with a near infinite ways to deal with creatures. Splashing a whole third color and reducing a deck consistency and resilency doesn't seem worth the sacrificed.

Shtriga

03-29-2008, 02:21 PM

"I will cast Hatred in my thread and swing for 20 damage"

lighten up, some of you

on topic: negator is pretty dangerous nowadays. I wish I could still run them

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 02:29 PM

Seriously,

I don't get how playing Jr. Mods when you don't even have a strong argument to make is a productive use of your time.

If you have something useful to add to the decks' theory or development, please do so. But stop wasting time and forum space with nonsense.

Hummingbird TG

03-29-2008, 02:53 PM

The mainstream versions of Deadguy, look nothing like the build being discussed here. Even the decks you posted looked very different from what's being discussed here. And they don't play like this either.

Of that whole thread, not a single build cut Confidant despite the massive dyssnergy between the two, not a single such build also runs a playset of Phyrexian Negator, I don't see a single build that is nearly as aggressive, which is my point.

By putting Vindicate and O Rings into the deck, you slow it down. At this point why not play Deadguy? Sure, your plan and ours differs...but to play Sui, you can't be running 6 removal spells which cost 3 mana. Stick with the green. Adding white dilutes the speed, so much so that you're better off fighting for the midgame, IMO. And you even cut the free removal spell Snuff Out.

Besides, our spell bases are so similar (in fact, save for the O rings, identical, for some builds), and the only difference is essentially the creature base. (Let's ignore the choice of accelerant for now, seeing as the Deadguy Builds can be 3 colored and thus they don't play Dark Ritual) - and Negator is a bad Tarmogoyf.

1.) It dilutes the mana base and makes your early plays less consistent in a deck where being able to disrupt from the first turn on is absolutely critical.

2.) Goyf doesn't really add anything that you can't achieve just as well with Negator.

3.) Goyf has no evasion, and is rather small early on, the first time it hits is usually for 2 damage on the third turn. Where as, a first turn Ritual + Negator is an absolutely devastating play.

1) Yes, I've had abit of mana problems with the deck, but it's not very big with Mox Diamonds around (the Deadguy builds all run so many different ways to produce the BB we need to Hymn and Thoughtseize away), and by not running Nantuko Shade we need BB even less. It's not like the manabase is that thrashy, really.

2) Yes, it does. It adds the fact that you don't lose to an opposing Goyf backed by counters. Or a chump blocker backed by counters. Or, hey, a Nimble Mongoose or something.

3) Not when I go, turn one, Mox, land, Hymn you (or Thoughtseize twice), turn two, Goyf. Besides, if you like to talk about how much Goyf is just a creature, so is Negator - both are mere creatures, and a turn 1 Negator can be handled just as easily as a turn two-three goyf. When I have chump blockers in the midgame, though, your Negator doesn't look half as hot now.

4) The green splash gives me the Split Second Krosan Grip, which uncounterably stops a lot of Artifacts which might cause trouble, and Gaddock Teeg for combo and control (seeing as Combo can rebuild rather fast from a Thoughtseize or Hymn or two). It's not just Goyf, contrary to what Green Death makes it look like.

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 03:17 PM

Thank you for that very constructive post. :)

You made some great points.

We really are after two very different things though.

What Deadguy and you are advocating is a slowish controllish tempo based deck.

I am arguing for a very fast deck, Dark Ritual + Negator turn one, followed up with disruption afterwards. It's fine to play discard early, then creature though and that's discard is cheap. But it's perfectly okay that Vindicate/O. Ring costs 3 mana. They're not supposed to be played turn one. They're meant to be played after your cast your nasty threat (Hyppe, Negator etc) and then used to take out Shackles or a blocker or something to make sure those threats connect.

There's yet another reason I'm not a fan of Mox Diamond in this deck. It just makes the early hands much less consistent, when do you cast Mox Diamond with a land leaving yourself land less and just prey you will find topdeck another one etc.

By not running Dark Ritual, I really feel that the deck loses a lot of it's explosiveness (as well as it's consistency). Ritual is never a dead card either since you can always use it like a surprise Giant Growth and pump Shade with it.

So we really are after very different things.

That's why I would really like this thread to stay focused on two colored builds runnign Dark Ritual and Negator rather than three colored builds running Diamond.

Thank you for your constructive feedback though.

Clark Kant

03-29-2008, 04:03 PM

I'm curious as well how many lands you run to support Mox Diamond. The consensus among people seems to be, atleast based on the thread where this was just asked, you need to run 25 lands to support it, 24 is the bare minimum. Else the deck becomes extremely inconsistent.

So basically, you are dedicating half your whole deck to mana cards to be able to run 3 colors and support Goyf. Thats another reason I dislike Diamond. Plus you are losing the explosive plays that turn one Ritual offers.

you like to talk about how much Goyf is just a creature, so is Negator - both are mere creatures, and a turn 1 Negator can be handled just as easily as a turn two-three goyf.

Completely agree with you there. The difference is, Negator is on color, while Goyf needs an entire color's splash to run. If Goyf was black, you bet your ass I would run it. And if Negator was green, you can be sure, I wouldn't splash a color just to play it either.

My point is, when every good deck is prepared to deal with a creature, splash a whole color and diluting the mana base to play that creature doesn't seem worthwhile.

If you are personally uncomfortable with Negator in your meta, you could just run another creature instead. Goyf after a little while grows to be a 4/5 without evasion usually.

You could instead run Oona's Prowler. Yes it only hits for 3 damage as opposed to four, but it does so from the first time it attacks, where goyf can be just a 2/3 early on. Prowler also has evasion (being chump blocked sucks) and can be cast off a ritual too. And doesn't need you to splash a color.

I'm not personally advocating for Oona's Prowler, just making a point that there are indeed decent alternatives to both Negator and Goyf.

Blacktail

03-29-2008, 04:43 PM

I have tested eva green, deadguy, sui black and red death (I own eva green, used to have RD), and I have to say;

Goyf is not just another creature. I understand that it doesn't have evasion, you must splash to play it, but it's frequently a 4/5 turn 3, and a 2/3-3/4 on turn 2.

running 4 tombstalkers is necessary, it's the best creature in the deck.

When you run goyf, it gives you the speed to finish the game once the disruption has slowed down your opponent. You don't have the resources to pull the game on for very long, you have to end it asap.

Running snuff out and goyf go a long way to reducing your opponent's life total before they can react. why wait until t3 to kill a creature, and waste a turn doing so/or give them more life (gives them more time to stabilize against you)

I think b/w suicide is a great idea, but you can't waste your precious turns killing creatures. It may be a more flexible deck, but suicide does not win off it's options, it wins from beating your opponent's head in before they can overpower you.

Goyf gives you everything that you need from a splash --> a huge ass win con.

I think of all the b/w builds I have seen, yours is my favourite however. You did a good job.

Cheers

Pulp_Fiction

03-29-2008, 04:49 PM

raharu

03-29-2008, 08:36 PM

There is a lot of hate being thrown around and is a very boring back and forth, now I actually have something constructive to say! I have never been a fan of Negator, the card just terrifies me, I have seen the card catch a lightning bolt a few to many times! In his spot, when Shadowmoor comes out, do you think Demigod of Revenge would be a good card to jam into the deck in place of Negator? He swings for 5 and if 1x is in the graveyard they evade counterspells (at least 1 hits play). Can the manabase of this deck support him?
It's an interesting option, but I believe that it will only be good as a 4 of, and a 4 of at BBBBB doesn't sound that reliable.

On a sidenote, Clark Kant, do you think that more fast creatures would be a decent idea? Things like Isamaru, Hound of Konda (instead of Carnophage/ Sarcomancy), the aforementioned Oona's Prowler, maybe Black Knight (prolly not fast enough to do any good), and more of the like.

On (yet another) sidenote: what is the playstyle that you are going for? Is it somewhere between Red Death/ Eva Green andDeadguy Ale? On the same speed as RD/ Eva? Maybe faster? I think something like a 9 on the speed scale, with 10 being RD and 1 being Deadguy is the optimal speed, and could be quite atainable.

Hummingbird TG

03-30-2008, 03:03 AM

Isamaru will only serve to rape your manabase, because then you will have to have W turn one, something this deck doesn't do. Rituals also don't cast him, and he pales in comparison with the other creatures in the format, such as Mongoose, or Goyf or Stalker, and has no eveasion.

Black Knight suffers from all the problems Isamaru is shown to suffer from above(except the manabase one).

Clark Kant

03-30-2008, 08:26 AM

Lots of great posts guys, thank you.

Blacktail, I agree with you that Goyf is incredibly strong and if on color, we wouldn't be discussing this at all.

Right now, I'm not convinced that the hit the manabase would take is worth it to splash green as a third color to run the card.

So far, I haven't seen a three color build yet that seemed strong and consistent. If you have any suggestions for such a build though, I am very open to trying it out.

And if came to green vs. white, I feel like white adds so much more.

Eva Green is forced to maindeck Seal of Primordium (a card that's useless against Goblins, other Sui Black decks, and a couple of other decks). But with white, you can deal with nastiness like Shackles, Control Magic and Counterbalance without needing to run cards that can be dead. And you run 6 of them, as opposed to 3 Seals makign sure you consistently have an answer. And those six can blow up creatures and lands so they're never dead and work beautifully with Sinkhole.

"When you run goyf, it gives you the speed to finish the game once the disruption has slowed down your opponent."

I don't see how Negator doesn't do the same thing though in addition to being castable off a first turn ritual, assuming that your meta can support him that is.

For Demigod, as others brought up, he is just too high a casting cost. He comes out so late and worst of all, the BBBBB cc means that you can't play him off of Wastelands colorless mana either.

raharu, I think strength and evasion is more important than speed right now. I would say the deck is about an 8 on the speed scale. It's not as fast as Red Death, but just Negator alone lets you have a decent shot at turn 3-4 wins.

I think more creatures could work, but only if they had evasion like Prowler. That way, you can just ignore any blocker and kill them a turn or two faster.

But what creature would you cut? Every one is so strong here, and I guess Negator is debatable, but none of the other threats are imo.

Obfuscate Freely

03-30-2008, 11:25 AM

Removing Snuff Out really weakens the deck. The card is an absurdly powerful component of Eva Green's aggressive strategy.

At just :1::g:, Seal of Primordium approaches Snuff Out's power level, although your metagame may call for Seal to be moved to the sideboard.

Vindicate and Oblivion Ring are versatile, but they aren't efficient enough to replace Snuff Out and Seal. Even if they were, there is the obvious hurdle of justifying the absence of Tarmogoyf (Phyrexian Negator is an awesome card, but it is much worse than Tarmogoyf). The white splash sounds like a terrible idea.

Also, to respond to your problems running four Tombstalkers, I'm sure it has a lot to do with your bloated mana curve. You have 14 three-mana spells, and only three creatures that cost less.

Cavius The Great

03-30-2008, 11:59 AM

Doesn't Swords to Plowshares do the same exact thing as Snuff Out but a little better? Please explain to me why Snuff Out would be a better card than StP?

And Seal of Cleansing can easily replace Seal of Primordium.

Clark Kant

03-30-2008, 01:14 PM

As Cavius points out, it's not as if Seal is unique to green.

Seal is being inflated in it's usefulness because green doesn't have access anything half as good as Vindicate.

There are a ton of matchups where Seal is a completely dead card (goblins, a lot of aggro decks etc).

Vindicate's ability to mana screw by supplementing the Wasteland and Sinkhole wins tons of games. It's ability to get rid of creatures in a pinch wins games.

I played Eva Green. And I had the same problem with sometimes not being able to cast Tombstalker early on that I do with this deck, having multiples in your opening hand really sucked in Eva Green as well.

Zork

03-30-2008, 01:33 PM

Seal can kill vial, which is huge against goblins. The only aggro deck where seal is useless is sligh. Against survival it kills survival, against chalice aggro it kills equipment or mana.

Also, the reason Snuff Out is so good is because Eva Green is a suicide deck. You want to have just enough lands to cast your spells, and you want to tap out every turn. That's why you play seal over Grip. In the case of swords, being stuck on 2 lands (fine for a while in Eva Green) with swords in your hand means you have to either forget your removal and tap out or lose tempo by answering a threat using the mana you should be going sui with.

Obfuscate Freely

03-30-2008, 01:39 PM

My point is that Seal of Primordium is better than Vindicate and Oblivion Ring, not that it necessitates a green splash.

As Zork just explained, Snuff Out is better in an aggressive deck than Swords, because it is free to cast. The life that Swords gives to your opponent is also relevant.

Clark Kant

03-30-2008, 01:56 PM

If Seal was indeed superior to Vindicate, point me to a single b/w suicide deck or deadguy deck or whatever that has ever opted to cut Vindicate to play maindeck Seal of Cleansing.

The reason Seal of Primordium is a must play in Eva Green is that outside of that, naturalize and Krosan Grip, the colors green and black have zero answers to nasty artifacts and enchantments, a single Veldalken Shackles is pretty much a game over for the deck in most situations.

This doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of decks out there that don't run a single artifact or enchantment. And many more where the artifacts and enchantments they run are no where near the powerlevel of their other permanents.

When you're talking about a deck that already runs 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole, Vindicate is an absolute massive bomb. In many games, it can blow up your opponents only remaining land, set them back several turns and win you the game right then and there. And in those where it can't do that, it can deal with nasty creatures, and artifacts and enchantments.

If you really want to swap O. Ring for 2 Seal of Cleansing, you're welcome, though I personally don't recommend it. But I would never ever in a million years cut a single Vindicate to maindeck Seal of Cleansing.

And if you were being realistic with yourself, I don't think you would either.

We can go back and forth on Snuff Out. It can't deal with Confidants, Tombstalkers and other nastyness. 4 life is an awful lot to pay to save yourself one life.

But ultimately, if you really like Snuff Out so much, you can run it over StP. Though historically, I can't think of a single deck that had access to both white and black and opted to run Snuff Out in place of StP. But then again, Goyf is a relatively new entry into the format.

Thank you for your constructive response though. :)

I will start testing Snuff Out in place of StP and get back to you.

raharu

03-30-2008, 08:34 PM

I wasn't sugesting replacments for creatures already in the deck, I was proposing adding a higher threat count. Perhaps it isn't viable (after all, the deck only has 60 slots), but it could improve the speed of the deck. I've found Isamaru to be decent, but there are much better altrenatives. Prowler jumps out as an obvious canditate. Shimian Specter, as you've mentioned, is worth looking into, but then the problem is that you have too many low-toughness creatures. The reason you don't have any room is the manadenial package, and cuting that for more threats leaves the deck winning the same matches it would have alraedy, having a better match against agro, and having a worse match against Landstill and other control.

So basicly, it's either a meta decision (but in the waranted meta, you probably shouldn't be playing Suicide anyway), or a bad idea.

In short, I've managed to out-agrue myself.

Clark Kant

03-30-2008, 11:38 PM

I'm very open to the idea of different threats or additonal threats.

Actually if we could come up with a strong meancing threat to replace Negator with from the sideboard (or maindeck based on the meta) that would be perfect.

The threat this deck plays have be large though, and undercosted.

One mana or two mana for a two power creature just doesn't cut muster.

All I can think off is Oona's Prowler as a possible Negator substitute from the sideboard or something. I want to test it out. But I am concerned that it has poor synergy with Hypnotic Spectar.

If your opponent has only one card in hand and you attack with both Hippie and Prowler, they would discard the card to weaken Prowler instead of losing it to Hippie anyways.

Obfuscate Freely

03-31-2008, 12:05 AM

Parcher

03-31-2008, 12:35 AM

I actually have to disagree with this. Vindicate is only better than Seal if your opponent is playing Tarmogoyf.

My dislike for 'Goyf is almost as strong as Teeniebopper's. Anwar and I tested the matchups exhaustively while he was tuning the deck, and Dan and I get paired at every fucking tournament. Since this only happens when I am running Mono-Red Chalice, my opinion is surely skewed, but the theory remains relevant.

A Creature, Land, and Sorcery in the 'yard is guarenteed by Eva Green. And an Instant is close. This means that regardless of what your opponent is playing, Seal gives +1 to the 'Goyf. Since most decks that give Eva Green problems run artifacts,(for instance, an active Jitte is game over for them) Seal gives an additional +1.

I know the vast majority of competative decks run him, so the bonus is even unless their 'Goyf is tapped the turn you activate Seal. But I have lost more games to that card individually, than any other in the deck.

AnwarA101

03-31-2008, 12:50 AM

Well, I've been thinking about what I said about Vindicate, and I have to take it back. Vindicate is better than Seal of Cleansing, and if it cost :1::b::g:, it would replace Seal of Primordium in Eva Green (I actually discussed this with Anwar). The greater mana cost is almost certainly overshadowed by the versatility, and the ability to maintain pressure on an opponent's scarce resource.

That said, I still suspect that your list has too many three-mana spells in it. It is important to have a good mana curve in this sort of deck.

Cutting Tarmogoyf is still unacceptable, as well, and Vindicate's advantages over Seal cannot make up for that. I'll echo Hummingbird's suggestion of splashing both colors, and just replacing Eva Green's Seals with Vindicates. The question we're left with is whether or not Vindicate is worth the jump to three colors.

The green Vindicate would be an interesting addition to this deck and I would probably play it over Seal of Primordium, but the green Vindicate isn't without its drawbacks. Costing 3 versus 2 is very relevant and often can mean that the card would be very slow. While the card would be a little slower it makes up for the fact since it can become the disruption spell of your choice.

Splashing 2 colors in Suicide is a risky propsition because it has the possibility of removing one of the best reasons to play the deck: Dark Ritual. If you can't fully exploit this card, its probably best to try creating a different deck. If you are adding white I think Doran deserves a good deal of consideration, but this is a different deck.

Clark Kant

03-31-2008, 04:48 AM

I actually have to disagree with this. Vindicate is only better than Seal if your opponent is playing less than 27 lands.

Quote Fixed. You are welcome.

The biggest advantage of Vindicate is that it supplements Sinkhole and Wasteland to attack your opponents mana base.

You frequently mana screw your opponent out of the game just from the act of running 12 land destruction spells.

Vindicates role versus Goyf is of lesser importance than that imho.

Anwar, I agree completely about Ritual. If you go up to three colors and thus can't abuse Ritual effectively, you're no longer running Sui Black. And at that time, you should probably play Doran too, and create a whole different deck.

I think that could work, but I mainly wanted to stick with a sui black variant here.

AnwarA101

03-31-2008, 07:21 AM

technogeek5000

03-31-2008, 09:14 AM

I used to play this deck before goyf became popular and also a little bit when goyf was on the rise and if i could give you one piece of advice its this (especially if your not playing green which is a mistake in its own right): is to play jotun grunt, which you should be cutting the numbers of tombstalker for... not the other way around. If you are set on fighting goyf instead of playing it, then this card nerfs them after its first turn in play. You make the goyf 1/1 or 2/2 smaller and the grunt 4/4 ass will stop whats left of the lhurgoyf. If your set on playing anti-goyf(which is a bad idea IMO), first play 4 grunts, then try tombstalkers. Dont forget, grunt hits their yard to so you can still play both comfortably part of the time.

nitewolf9

03-31-2008, 10:34 AM

Grunt as a primary threat seems pretty bad because you cannot reliably keep him around for long enough to finish your opponent off. He is a very good threat against a deck like threshold, which is why I think he would be a strong sideboard option, but decks like goblins and dragon stompy for example do not fill their yards very quickly and you get a chump blocker for a couple of turns at the most. He is situational and that is the word you want to try and avoid in a deck that relies on a consistent threat base.

Replacing tombstalker with jotun grunt is lunacy. Tombstalker is bigger, stays around, has evasion, is harder to remove, and in my opinion is pretty much the best pound for pound threat that black has to offer right now.

FoolofaTook

03-31-2008, 10:46 AM

Replacing tombstalker with jotun grunt is lunacy. Tombstalker is bigger, stays around, has evasion, is harder to remove, and in my opinion is pretty much the best pound for pound threat that black has to offer right now.

The problem with Tombstalker is that he turns the opponent's game 2 bounce into the equivalent of StP because you'll never get him back on the board in a relevant timeframe again. He's still a wonderful finisher when you can keep him on the board but I've had too many of them Wiped Away or Echoing Truthed at this point to be willing to rely on them to finish for me against a good deck.

AnwarA101

03-31-2008, 10:49 AM

The problem with Tombstalker is that he turns the opponent's game 2 bounce into the equivalent of StP because you'll never get him back on the board in a relevant timeframe again. He's still a wonderful finisher when you can keep him on the board but I've had too many of them Wiped Away or Echoing Truthed at this point to be willing to rely on them to finish for me against a good deck.

How many decks in Legacy main deck bounce spells? I can only think of a 1 in UGR Thrash with Stifle/Waste. It doesn't matter whether they STP or Wipe Away Stalker either way they spent a card to answer him and Wipe Away doesn't eliminate the possibility of playing him later especially off a Dark Ritual.

Clark Kant

03-31-2008, 11:52 AM

I don't think it can be stressed enough how flawed not playing Tarmogoyf really is in this deck. Tarmogoyf fits the strategy of this deck perfectly. He costs two mana, he is unbelievably large with no drawback, and he only costs 1 off-color mana. Its not valid to say you play STP so you don't need to run Tarmogoyf. You need to run Tarmogoyf so that he helps you win even when your opponent doesn't play Tarmogoyf of his own. Tarmogoyf is one of the best threats in Magic and there is no reason not to play him in a deck like this one.

Thank you for your post. But I think you meant to post that over at the mono black sui thread instead.

I couldn't have been clearer. I'm not playing white for StP. I'm playing it for Vindicate primarily, and for StP and O. Ring secondarily.

Vindicate is an exceptional disruption spell. It supplements Sinkhole and Wasteland and mana screws opponents out of games. And it can take care of just about anything else too, from Veldalken Shackles to Counterbalance to Tarmogoyf to Planeswalkers.

Vindicate amps the resiliency of this decks disruption package so much.

Goyf is an undercosted vanilla nonevasive beater, but that is it. And he's a beater that every relevent deck is prepared for.

I'm not saying he's not fantastic. He's the most undercosted creature printed. If he was on color, or I could cast him off a turn one ritual, or if I didn't need to splash an entire color just for his sake, I would run him in a heartbeat.

But given the choice between an undercosted vanilla beater, and the best threat removal spell any deck could ever ask for, one that supplements your mana denial strategy, I'm opting for the latter.

I'm not claiming nor have I ever claimed that this is a better choice to Eva Green either. But it's a different enough choice that it's better in some situations and worse in others. This choice lets you mana screw opponents far more frequently for one.

On a side note, I'm looking at the spoiled card... Ashenmoor Warrior

Three black mana for a 4/4 that can't block.

I don't think he's quite good enough to make the cut, but might be worth trying, or atleast bringing up.

FoolofaTook

03-31-2008, 12:47 PM

How many decks in Legacy main deck bounce spells? I can only think of a 1 in UGR Thrash with Stifle/Waste. It doesn't matter whether they STP or Wipe Away Stalker either way they spent a card to answer him and Wipe Away doesn't eliminate the possibility of playing him later especially off a Dark Ritual.

Very few decks maindeck bounce spells but many have a couple or more in the sideboard. That's why I specified game two as the weakness in the card.

I lost a game last tourney at Hadley because the opponent wiped away a Tombstalker and I couldn't get it back down in time to effect the outcome. Of course he was playing 4 StP and 2+ Wipe Away at that point so he had a lot of outs against an early to midgame Tombstalker.

I'm not saying it's not a good play in many decks, but it does widen the opponent's response range pretty dramatically after sideboarding. It also increases the deck's vulnerability to some types of graveyard hate.

Clark Kant

04-02-2008, 10:07 PM

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to test...

-2 Swamp
+2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-4 Negator
+4 Ashenmoor Gouger

The deck still has a crapload of ways to take out blockers/goyf, and manascrew your opponent, but Negator was still vulnerable to burn.

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 10:09 PM

I altered the opening list as follows...

-1 Swamp
-2 Oblivion Ring
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+2 Snuff Out

I did this because Oblivion Ring proved to be overkill. Thoughtseize and Vindicate were more than apt in dealing with problem cards.

Snuff Out just worked better with Negator as well.

My list now looks like this...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4/3 Vindicate
2/3 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

What do you guys think?

I dropped the O. Rings, as I found that Thoughtseize and Vindicate were more than apt in dealing with problem cards.

I really think this is an improvement over Eva Green unless your meta is one that is hostile towards Negators (ie. burn is still played). Negator isn't really a problem against aggro control decks as the deck itself has a multitude of ways to deal with potential blockers. But it is a problem against burn decks.

Fortunately, ironically thanks to Goyf, fewer decks run burn than ever before, as Burn is no longer good enough to deal with the most popular creature in the format, and I find Negator to be very good these days.

Goyf as good as it is, is on average slower than Negator, and somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker.

You can cast Negator of a turn one Ritual and beat for 5 on the turn two.

The earliest Goyf hits is on turn three and usually at best for 3 damage.

Yes, without ritual, a Negator on turn three ends up doing the same amount of damage as a Goyf on turn two. But, the Negator played on turn three, means that you were able to cast a Hymn or Sinkhole on turn two, which is the critical/optimal turn to play Sinkhole/Hymn.

Plus Goyf is somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker as well.

Vindicate is so much better than Seal it's not even funny. Vindicate not only hits everything Seal does but also deals with opposing Goyfs when you don't have a Swords/Snuff Out handy and best of all supplements your Sinkholes and Wastelands to nuke your opponents mana base and screw then over completely.

Even if your meta is one that is hostile to Negator, if you are willing to up the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count, the deck could well support Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Negator. It's not as good, but it's an option nonetheless.

Another advantage to build this deck is that you can relatively cheaply transform it into B/W Pox...

+ 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+ 3 Mishra's Factory
+ 4 Smallpox
+ 4 Pox
+ 3 Crucible of Worlds
+ 3 Ghostly Prison
+ 2 Rancid Earth
+ 1 Vindicate

- 4 Dark Ritual
- 4 Hypnotic Specter
- 4 Phyrexian Negator
- 3 Nantuko Shade
- 3 Snuff Out
- 2 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Swamp

So you get, two solid decks for the price of one.

Kadaj

04-13-2008, 10:30 PM

It's difficult for me as an observer to gauge the impact of not having Goyf in a deck like this. It is fairly obvious that Goyf is not an automatic inclusion in every deck, but I do feel one has to think long and hard about whether or not it's a good idea to exclude him when he so perfectly fits the deck's strategy.

In reality, the major reason to play this deck over Eva Green has to be Vindicate. Unless Vindicate is utterly amazing and a huge component of this deck's success, something I cannot validate because I have not tested the list, there is no reason to play white over green.

Clark, my real question is this: In your testing has Vindicate proven so effective that it warrants the inclusion of white over green entirely on its own?

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 10:38 PM

Absolutely. Vindicate is well worth the white splash.

There is a reason that Eva Green opted to include 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole.

The tempo you gain from land destruction, and from mana screwing your opponent is enormous.

Vindicate supplements both cards perfectly and really increases your ability to mana screw your opponents.

There are several games where Vindicate is the last piece of the puzzle in mana screwing your opponent whereas, had it been Seal of Primordium, the opponent could have made a recovery. In fact, I believe that much of the sucess that Deadguy had several years ago came because of it's 12 land destruction cards, rather than on the back of it's threats, which in all honesty, I found to be rather weak.

In additon to this, Vindicate can take out a potential blocker when one of your 4 dedicated creature kill cards aren't handy, something that Seal of Primordium was never able to do.

In fact, there were several situations where Seal is worthless and just a dead card in your hand, and there's even a few matchups where Seal has no targets at all. Vindicate is never dead.

So yes, I absolutely think Vindicate is an enormous advantage of Seal of Primordium.

raharu

04-13-2008, 10:39 PM

Well, 'Goyf isn't exactly terrible with Tombstalker, in all actuallyity, it stays rather large from the OP's grave because of the sickening discard suite you are (or at least should be) running. Go look at the recent arguments in the Eva Green thread.

Vindicate > Seal of Primodrium? Well, Yeah, obviously, although wasteland + Sinkhole should be enough that you can ise Vindicate for other, more important threats.

Your 'Goyf<Gator argument isn't really valid. In order for 'Gator to hit first/ harder, you rely on having a D. rit, which isn't really that likely. Then you rely on A) them not dropin a creature or B) you having removal you can actually play on turn two, i.e. not O. Ring or Vindicate. At any rate, I'd run Bunnies or something akin to it before I bothered with a suicide white build. They can protect 'Gator and use it way better than your list can.

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 10:51 PM

Yes, sometimes 4 Wastelands and 4 Sinkhole is enough to manascrew your opponent, but sometimes it's not, and it's those times that you'll be very happy to have Vindicate to ensure your opponent can't make a recovery.

I never said that Goyf was terrible with Tombstalker. I said that it is somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker, which is true. Tombstalker often empties out your graveyard and can turn your Goyfs back into a 3/4 on average (or even a 2/3), which is not all impressive. Goyf also usually starts out about that size in the early game as well.

So early on, Goyf is usually a 2/3 or 3/4, then by midgame it grows to a 4/5 or 5/6. But when you cast Tombstalker, it often times does go back down to a 3/4.

Negator by comparison is always an impressive 5/5 trampler, though I fully admit, a risky one.

That doesn't change the fact that Goyf is a fantastic card. But I don't think it's fair to Negator is strictly inferior either.

That's entirely dependent on board position, and what your opponent is playing.

P.S. What the hell is bunnies? Is it a cute nickname for fish or something?

raharu

04-13-2008, 11:26 PM

Nay sir, Bunnies is a CaNGD champion from years past. I'll go dig up the thread. It's BW agro-disruption like Suicide, but, well, different. Heavier white and more creature-tempo oriented than spell-tempo oriented.

EDIT: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3262
That.

Clark Kant

04-14-2008, 12:32 AM

Carnophage! Sarcomancy! Isamaru! Rotting Giant!

0 Duress/Thoughtseize
0 Hymn
0 Hypnotic Specter
0 LD Spells
and very little disruption of any sort.

Whats the point of running black if you don't bother to run much disruption!

No offense but that list looks awful. It may have worked two years ago but the meta has evolved since then.

Whats the point of wasting precious card space on 2/2 creatures that are at best 10 turn clocks, but usually just die to every creature in the format.

I suggest reading Legend's Suicide Black Primer for almost a decade ago if you can find it. It's a truly excellent read. It may be old, but the principles that underlie it, and the points he makes on why Carnophage and Sarcomancy suck are even more true today than they were back then.

You are far better off running cards like Tombstalker that are actual threats and put your opponent on a fast clock.

This way, you can devote the slots you save to playing disruption.

About the only card I like in the list is Mother of Runes and possibly Jitte. I already mentioned Mother of Runes in my opening post. It's a solid way to protect your threats, esp Negator, and it can chump Goyf all day long, but I just don't see what the list can cut to make room for it.

Clark Kant

04-14-2008, 05:17 PM

Eva Green has no outs, none what so ever against a Mystic Enforcer, or even an opposing Tombstalker. All it's removal is dead against it.

A resolved Mystic Enforcer (has Pro Black) and Eva Green might as well pack up and go home.

But with Eva White, you have diversity in your removal options, such as Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. And Vindicate hits black creatures that Snuff Out doesn't.

Isamaru

04-14-2008, 07:02 PM

... you're forgetting that Snuff Out is free (5 life), and has a CMC of 4.

You shouldn't be comparing the decks when they have different strategies.

raharu

04-14-2008, 07:28 PM

Obviously the deck would need some changes, and I've been mulling more recent lists around, but the archtype is stll very viable. Take an oldschool build tuned for a combo metagame (i.e. more discard), modernize it, and it's quite powerful. Mana disruption is overkill most of the time anyway if they can't hold anything relevant in thier hand, and it eats slots for more threats/ acceleration (at least it takes Chrome Mox slots in Bunnies).

Clark Kant

04-15-2008, 12:52 AM

Isamaru, that's why the deck runs both Swords and Snuff Out, because they supplement each other.

If the only creature kill option you have is Snuff Out (Eva Green) then you are screwed when your opponent casts a Mystic Enforcer as he is pro black, flys and will singlehandedly block all your threats and win the game for them. By running Swords to supplement Snuff Out, you have an out against him.

The same applies for any black creature as well really, as Snuff Out can't deal with black threats, but Mystic Enforcer is the one the deck is most vulnerable for.

Clark Kant

04-20-2008, 11:53 PM

Here's my current build, if you're interested...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

Between the games you win by not letting your opponent keep a single land on the table and the ones you win by seperating them from every single relevent threat, the deck feels absolutely broken in half to me every time I play it.

electrolyze

04-22-2008, 01:47 PM

okay, because my main deck at this moment is eva green and i always played bw deadguy ale i wanted to give it a shot.

fo my list i just took the eva gren shel and replaced the green cards with white ones becasue it is already proven eva green's shell is the best suicide and tempo based atm.

here's the list:

4xhypnotic specter
4xtombstalker
4xnantuko shade
3xjotun grunt

4xthougthseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xsinkhole
4xVINDICATE, i think this is the card that is better in eva white then seal in eva green but for the rest, i think eva green is way better.

4xritual
4xsnuff out

21 land, same as in eva but then with 3 scrubs

i dont play stp because its still a tempo based deck and snuff out is free and dont give your oppo live wich slows you down.

i play 3 grunts and 4 vindicates instead of the eva green's 4 goyf and 3 seal because 4 grunt is way too much too be consistent.

i think this deck plays fun but still goyf over all the white cards in this deck:laugh: thats why i preer eva green, but i dont say this deck is weak, its really a strong build i think.

Clark Kant

04-22-2008, 04:19 PM

That's a cool build.

I do think it's a mistake to use the identical shell of Eva Green in the white splash though.

Swords is a 1cc answer to any goyfs and creatures they play. You can easily cast it alongside a Shade or even Tombstalker.

Also playing a full four Snuff Out maindeck opens you up to massive lifeloss, and multiple dead cards in the mirror matchup.

So I see no reason not to play 3 Snuff Out and 3 Swords in the white shell of the deck, effectively giving you 13-14 noncreature basaed maindeck answers to opposing Goyfs, Dreadnoughts and other potential blockers, the same number of answers to Goyf as colored mana sources played in Fairie Stompy and Dragon Stompy!

I also think Negator or even Ashenmoor Ghoul (if you hate Negator) is superior to Jotun Grunt in a deck that plays 4 Tombstalker. Both cards can be played off a turn one Dark Ritual too. But Grunt is solid at dealing with Goyfs and Tombstalkers so I may be wrong, or perhaps it should be in the sideboard versus threshold, the mirror matchup and against Ichorid and such.

Clark Kant

04-24-2008, 12:27 AM

I was interested in trying out the Servant + Grindstone combo into a sui black shell. Disruptive discard and tutoring goes very well with this combo.

Here is a quick untested thrown together build, it clearly needs to be optimized...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress/Hymn to Tourach
3 Grindstone
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tainted Pact/Beseech the Queen

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

The plan IS to beat the crap out of your opponent. The combo is the back up plan should that original plan fail.

Or another way to look at it, is this is a combo deck, but with an extremely strong aggro backup to distract your opponent or win through a Stifle/Gaea's Blessing.

The fact is, this deck can support both the combo and aggro routes very well. It has more than enough tools that it can consistently go with either goal in mind.

That kind of flexibility is hard to come by and in my opinion undervalued.

The one thing I will change with the list, is that I will add a singleton Lurebound Scarecrow (or Phyrexian Warbeast or Sarcomancy or Bitterblossom or Engineered Explosives or Jitte) to the list to grab with Enlightened Tutor in a pinch.

This is because Lurebound Scarecrow is a very strong and solid beater in this deck. And it can be tutored up with Enlightened Tutor should the combo route fail you thanks to an Extripate or something. Thus, the E. Tutors never become dead cards.

I didn't want to use the deadguy shell because the deadguy shell is slow, sucky and largely defunct imho.

As nice as Persecute is with a Servant on the board. It can be weak without a Servant since so many decks run upwards of three colors. And it's pretty mana intensive. I just felt Duress/Hymn was generally more disruptive.

It was important to me that the deck retained the traditional brokeness of Suicide Black. The combo is there as a backup plan, but one that you often draw into and resolve while your opponents are busy worrying about your other threats.

I'm not sure what to use as the two of tutor. Beseech is perfect but it costs a lot of mana.

Tainted Pact has the bonus of being cheaper and being an instant.

So at the end of your opponents turn, you can cast Tainted Pact, and try to tutor into either Enlightened Tutor or your second combo piece. Enlightened Tutor is an instant as well so you could cast it immediatley after too, and thus draw the card during the start of your turn. And if you have neither combo piece in hand, Pact at the end of your opponent's turn into a Thoughtseize, or more beats is a solid play as well.