Reflecting Pool, Squandered Resources, and mana restrictions

[Drathro]

I've looked for a definitive answer, but I'm having trouble finding one, since I'm certain the rules have changed on this at least once.

If I use Reflecting Pool (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Reflecting_Pool)'s ability to produce a colored mana, based on controlling a Primal Beyond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Primal_Beyond), does the Elemental-only restriction of the mana produced get copied as well?

In the same vein, if I sacrifice a Boseiju, Who Shelters All (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Boseiju,_Who_Shelters_All) to Squandered Resources (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Squandered Resources), will the mana produced retain the special "can't be countered" ability?

I've found different sites with different rulings, old and new, and I searched the Comp Rules, but didn't find the specific rule or rules that cover this situation. I'd really appreciate if someone could cite the specific rule(s) that deal with this interaction.

[Tosh]

I don't think either do. Reflecting Pool and Squandered Resources do not deal damage to you if you choose/sacrificed a pain-land.

[Ewokslayer]

Q: If I have a Heartbeat of Spring or a Reflecting Pool, and it copies the mana produced by a Hall of the Bandit Lord, or Boseiju, Who Shelters All, does the copied mana have the extra ability (adding haste or uncounterability) as well? –Ben

A: No, the extra effect is not included with the mana. The types of mana are only the five colors of mana and colorless. Extra effects are not a part of the type of mana produced. This includes negative effects, too—with Heartbeat, Mishra's Workshop would produce three-colorless-only-for-artifacts plus one regular colorless.

[Nihil Credo]

This is as good a place to post as any. Here's something you may not know.

You control a Reflecting Pool and a Nimbus Maze. Reflecting Pool will only tap for {1}. For Reflecting Pool to work, the land must actually be able to tap for that color of mana.
Wrong, according to SCG:


Q: I control a Tainted Wood (http://www.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tainted%20Wood) and a Reflecting Pool (http://www.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Reflecting%20Pool) but no swamp. Can the Reflecting Pool (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Reflecting+Pool) be tapped for a black or green mana?
Thanks,
Steve

A: Yes, because it knows the Tainted Wood (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tainted+Wood) could produce black or green under the right conditions. The only times Reflecting Pool (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Reflecting+Pool) is useless are if you a) have all Reflecting Pool (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Reflecting+Pool)s or b) if none of your other lands tap for mana.
Sheldon

It's literally the difference between 'can' and 'could'.

[cdr]

Yep. Anus is repeating a mistaken rules-l post.

[Anusien]

The original ruling was about half wrong:


The reason for the delay is that I was hoping to provide more
information about the exact reasoning behind the rule. Rulings
without explaination tend to result in a flood of followup questions
anyway... so it's important to understand why Reflecting Pool treats
Tainted Peak one way but River of Tears another.

The difference is in the templating (the exact wording, on the card)
-- one is a restriction on when the ability can be played, the other
is a self-replacement effect. In the end, the decision of what is and
isn't included in the definition of "could produce" is up to the rules
team, and that's what we use to differentiate.

* It DOES take into account replacement effects (Reality Twist) and
self-replacement effects (Rain of Tears)
* It does NOT take into account costs on the mana ability in question
(Crystal Quarry, {T}, etc)
* It does NOT take into account play restrictions (Tainted Peak,
Temple of the False God)
* It does NOT take into account other possible futures (Playing a
land, a Blood Moon, or a Stone Rain)

So, yes .. controlling a Tainted Peak means you can get R or B from
your Reflecting Pool, regardless of whether you control a swamp.

One last thing that Reflecting Pool does not consider is how MUCH mana
is produced by the other land's ability. Gaea's Cradle can produce
more (or less) than one mana... but it's not relevant here. If you
control a Cradle, you can tap Reflecting Pool for Green whether you
control a creture or not.

So something with a self-replacement effect like Rain of Tears will change what Reflecting Pool can provide, but Tainted Peak will not.

[Nihil Credo]

Please give some context to the quotes you posted. The last one says that Tainted Peak always turns Reflecting Pool into a Badlands, just like the SCG ruling; the one before says it doesn't. Both agree that River of Tears will turn Reflecting Pool into... well, into a River of Tears.

Are they both from the judge mailing list? Who wrote them? And most importantly, which one is the most recent?

[Drathro]

Pulling the train of thought back to my original question, I've found the answer I was looking for under the "Mana" and "Type" entries in the Glossary of the Comprehensive Rules as of 2008-02-01 (emphasis added):


Mana
Mana is the energy used to play spells and is usually produced by lands. Mana is created by mana abilities (and sometimes by spells), and it can be used to pay costs immediately or can stay in the player’s mana pool. See rule 406, "Mana Abilities."
Colored mana costs, represented by colored mana symbols, can be paid only with the appropriate color of mana. Generic mana costs can be paid with any color of, or with colorless, mana. See rule 104.3.
The spell or ability that adds mana to a mana pool may restrict how it can be used. An ability might produce mana that can be used only to play creature spells or only to pay activation costs.
The type of mana a permanent "could produce" is the type of mana that any ability of that permanent can generate, taking into account any applicable replacement effects. If the type of mana can’t be defined, there’s no type of mana that that permanent could produce. The "type" of mana is its color, or lack thereof (for colorless mana).

Therefore, when Reflecting Pool and Squandered Resources add one mana of any type of mana the other controlled or sacrificed land could produce, "type" means only color or colorless. No abilities or restrictions associated with mana are part of that mana's "type."

[Anusien]

Please give some context to the quotes you posted. The last one says that Tainted Peak always turns Reflecting Pool into a Badlands, just like the SCG ruling; the one before says it doesn't. Both agree that River of Tears will turn Reflecting Pool into... well, into a River of Tears.

Are they both from the judge mailing list? Who wrote them? And most importantly, which one is the most recent?
They're both from Gavin Duggan who is a NetRep and [O]fficial source for rulings. The second one supercedes the first (but the second one hadn't been posted when I posted the first). So Reflecting Pool will give any color of mana for Nimbus Maze, but it will only tap for whatever River of Tears will provide.

[Maveric78f]

Just to be sure, a few questions :
Reflecting pool does not copy the snow property of the mana ?
Reflecting pool with a counterless Tendo Ice Bridge into play provides a mana of any color ?
If 2 reflecting pool are in play, do they provide 2 mana of any color ?

[yggdrasil]

Reflecting pool does not copy the snow property of the mana ?

The "Snow property" as you call it is defined as: "If this mana was produced by a Snow permanent". So just ask yourself: is the pool Snow?



Reflecting pool with a counterless Tendo Ice Bridge into play provides a mana of any color ?

Yes.



If 2 reflecting pool are in play, do they provide 2 mana of any color ?
If ONLY 2 Pools are in play, they cannot produce any mana.

[rufus]

Does this generalize to other land ability copying? For example, if I have a Fellwar Stone in play, and my opponent has (only) a reflecting pool in play, what can the Fellwar Stone produce mana?

[Anusien]

If you have stone and they only have Reflecting Pool, Fellwar Stone cannot make mana.

[Volt]

.

[Nightmare]

I was gonna delete it, but it's too good. So I'll just lock it instead.

[Drathro]

This is an FYI in response to some conflicting rules advice in another thread. I would have replied to the appropriate thread, but somebody decided to be "funny" and got it locked.

From the mothership's "Ask Wizards" for April 7, 2008 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0408):

River of Tears has a mana ability that produces :u: or :b: depending on whether you played a land this turn, but Reflecting Pool only "sees" an ability that can tap for :u: or :b:. It will be able to produce either color regardless of whether you have played a land this turn.
This ruling overturns the information given earlier on this forum.

[Nightmare]

Merged and re-opened.

[yggdrasil]

This is an FYI in response to some conflicting rules advice in another thread. I would have replied to the appropriate thread, but somebody decided to be "funny" and got it locked.

From the mothership's "Ask Wizards" for April 7, 2008 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0408):

This ruling overturns the information given earlier on this forum.
This is wrong. Ask Wizards is not an offical NetRep, so what they say is not an offical ruling.

Their ruling on the River of Tears/Reflecting Pool-Synergy is also wrong and they already got an email (probably multiple) about it.

[Anusien]

This is wrong. Ask Wizards is not an offical NetRep, so what they say is not an offical ruling.
You're wrong. The Wizards of the Coast Rules Corner is an official source. So both answers are [O]fficial, and it's being brought to Mark Gottlieb's attention today to get a definitive answer.

Edit: followup
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15610142&postcount=14

[Drathro]

It looks like Wizards sneakily updated the Ask Wizards entry that used to contradict what our resident rules guys have reported. The entry for 4/14/2008 at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0408 now reads:


River of Tears has a mana ability that produces :u: or :b: depending on whether you played a land this turn, and this is where the "applicable replacement effects" line comes up. In this case, it's a self-replacement effect that causes River of Tears to produce :b: instead of :u: if you've played a land this turn, and that replacement effect will also apply if Reflecting Pool is tapped for mana. It will produce :b: if you have played a land this turn and :u: if you have not, just like River of Tears.

That wraps up any question I have about it. Thanks for the info everybody.