Why can't we have Skullclamp?

[Joe_C]

Maybe I dont really understand how broken this is since I wasnt really playing too much magic during the affinity/clamp days. But honestly would skullclamp ruin the format? Where could it be broken?

[Cabal-kun]

Maybe I dont really understand how broken this is since I wasnt really playing too much magic during the affinity/clamp days. But honestly would skullclamp ruin the format? Where could it be broken?

Creature decks, like Goblins. To give you an idea of how broken it is, it has the power to make Elves competitive.

[moOnsteak]

Skullclamp + Priest of Titania + Wyrewood Symbiote + some elves in your hand= crazy combo

Also you can imagine skullclamp attached to some powerful creatures like Serra Avenger, Kird Ape, or Magus of The moon will make an unfair combat. .

[eternaldarkness]

I played Standard in the dark days when clamp was legal. Every deck with creatures ran it. Every combo deck ran it. Even control decks wanted to run it by making use of assorted 1 toughness critters.

I don't think Legacy can handle the clamp.

[kicks_422]

Maybe I dont really understand how broken this is since I wasnt really playing too much magic during the affinity/clamp days.

You should have stopped right there and forgot about posting that question.

[Peter_Rotten]

Here are the decks that I pay attention to:

Goyf Sligh
Aggro Loam
Burning Tog
Survival
Thresh

Here is a list of decks that I pay attention to and would find room for Clamp if it was legal:

Goyf Sligh
Aggro Loam
Burning Tog
Survival
Thresh

Yeah, it's too good for Legacy.

[kabal]

Here are the decks that I pay attention to:

Goyf Sligh
Aggro Loam
Burning Tog
Survival
Thresh

Here is a list of decks that I pay attention to and would find room for Clamp if it was legal:

Goyf Sligh
Aggro Loam
Burning Tog
Survival
Thresh

Yeah, it's too good for Legacy.

Threshold, really??? How would it benefit if you had the following creature configuration:

4 Goyf
4 Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer

You can only attach it to 6 of your 10 creatures. I think this is the reason Jitte isn't run in Threshold

[insertnamehere]

Why can't we have Skullclamp? Simple, Look at what Flash was threatening to do to Legacy. I know several peons that quit magic because they didn't have Flash to build decks around.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Everyone in this thread is wrong by the way.

Skullclamp may be broken, but it wouldn't be for any of the reasons so far listed.

Realize a couple things;

Skullclamp is slow. Really slow. It trades in tempo for card advantage.

Elves are always going to suck. They're just too easy to kill. If they're not too easy to kill, then they don't work with Skullclamp. So it's a paper dragon.

Goblins can use it but it's a much slower version of Goblins that doesn't really improve any of its bad match-ups.

Perhaps some Kobolds-Glimpse deck would be pushed over the top with Clamp. Perhaps. It seems unlikely but I guess it's possible.

[quicksilver]

Skull clamp is slow as balls. It nearly a dead card against combo or agro since the tempo loss is so great. The format has a billion and one answers to it. It was barely played in 1.5 before it got banned and I doubt it would be played much now if it was legal. Everyone's just affraid of it.


edit: exactly spat

[Tacosnape]

Why can't we have Skullclamp?

Because you weren't a good little boy and you didn't eat all your vegetables.

[Pinder]

Because you weren't a good little boy and you didn't eat all your vegetables.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we have a winner.

True story.

[FakeSpam]

Best trinket ever.

[Joe_C]

What Spatula said was exactly what I dont get about why we cant have it... The decks that you would think it would help, really cant put it to great use... Elf clamp would never really be a threat. Goblins cant really use 4 of them, it could, but it wouldnt make it any truly "better".

[Kadaj]

The reason we can't have it is the same reason Dream Halls will never be unbanned in this format. It will never be a fair card. It will either be completely broken as all fuck, or it will see no play whatsoever and be awful. Neither of those options are particularly appealing to the RnD, so they will never unban it because there's really no upside to having it legal.

[Bryant Cook]

People who played in 1.5 know that Skullclamp wasn't that powerful, it was played in Angel Stompy and that was about it. I think people are just overreacting. If it was unbanned it'd be over hyped for 2-3 months then people would realize it's not that great and it'd die down.

[BreathWeapon]

At worst, some one puts it and Glimpse into a SI shell or Affinity competes with Goblins, big deal.

[mercenarybdu]

Aggro decks would draw ten times as many cards than any other players as would have lots of little guys to kill for additional cards to boot some more to greaten their chances to win on a major scale.

If you read old coverage on wizards you'll get our point.

[Bryant Cook]

Aggro decks would draw ten times as many cards than any other players as would have lots of little guys to kill for additional cards to boot some more to greaten their chances to win on a major scale.

If you read old coverage on wizards you'll get our point.

So, you mean aggro being viable is a bad thing? Creatures using the red zone is dangerous? Creature decks making boring decks like Landstill less viable, is horrible? Being a combo player, I could care less if I'm playing against Zoo with Clamp. The format would once again be somewhat balanced. Maybe Threshold wouldn't dominate the format. Man, what an awful thing.

[Anusien]

So, you mean aggro being viable is a bad thing? Creatures using the red zone is dangerous? Creature decks making boring decks like Landstill less viable, is horrible? Being a combo player, I could care less if I'm playing against Zoo with Clamp. The format would once again be somewhat balanced. Maybe Threshold wouldn't dominate the format. Man, what an awful thing.
By that logic, let's unban Mishra's Workshop. Prison being viable can only make things better, no?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

By that logic, let's unban Mishra's Workshop. Prison being viable can only make things better, no?That wasn't what he was saying at all.

He was saying that Skullclamp would make aggro stronger and blance the format out.

[Giles]

It is because we are not allowed to have nice things anymore.

[Nihil Credo]

Skullclamp is slow. Really slow. It trades in tempo for card advantage.
This is correct, but does not make Skullclamp any less problematic.

Currently, every non-combo deck wins through the red zone. Of these, Dragon and Faerie Stompy may be the only ones with the ability to still win off of sheer tempo in the face of an active Skullclamp. In every other pairing, Skullclamp will single-handedly win any attrition war if it is simply attached to a solid creature, devolving otherwise interesting games into Whack-A-Clamp. If it is played in a deck which can turn it into an active draw engine, like Survival or Goblins or Fish, it will give an impossibly large edge even if it is dealt with in a timely fashion.

It is quite possible that an even more widespread use of Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needles could allow Skullclamp to not ruin the format. But even then, Skullclamp would not make Legacy any more enjoyable: every draw engine out there would have to compete with "4 Steelshaper's Gift, 4 Trinket Mage, 4 Skullclamp, 4 EE". I would estimate that competitive Legacy would split into three options: Storm decks, Chalice decks, and Skullclamp decks; and I'm not sure on the Chalice decks.

I prefer the format like it is now, thank you very much.

[TeenieBopper]

Just what this format needs- a cheaper, more splashable version of Tarmogoyf. Pass on that, thanks.


So, you mean aggro being viable is a bad thing? Creatures using the red zone is dangerous? Creature decks making boring decks like Landstill less viable, is horrible? Being a combo player, I could care less if I'm playing against Zoo with Clamp. The format would once again be somewhat balanced. Maybe Threshold wouldn't dominate the format. Man, what an awful thing.

Go check the results. Aggro is doing just fine. Control... not so much. At least, not blue based control. Skullclamp would completely push those deck out of the format, and probably the G/B board control decks as well. There's simply no way that they'd be able to keep up with an active 'clamp.

Regarding Thresh: It's not the bees knees right now, but it would play Skullclamp itself. It would have no reason not to. Skullclamp>Ponder. Shit, I'd go so far as to say Skullclamp ~ Brainstorm. The card is that retarded.

[Bryant Cook]

Just what this format needs- a cheaper, more splashable version of Tarmogoyf. Pass on that, thanks.

This statement is dumb. Skullclamp is easier to deal with, even pithing needle kills it. Not to mention you need creatures. Control decks could just not let you have them. Not to mention it could be a great answer to the 500 decks playing counter top.

EDIT: Anusien - No. Locking out an opponent is much different than drawing 2 cards off of a Savannah Lion. Or even trading Goyfs.

[Jaiminho]

This statement is dumb. Skullclamp is easier to deal with, even pithing needle kills it. Not to mention you need creatures. Control decks could just not let you have them. Not to mention it could be a great answer to the 500 decks playing counter top.

EDIT: Anusien - No. Locking out an opponent is much different than drawing 2 cards off of a Savannah Lion. Or even trading Goyfs.

Is it easier to deal with than Goyf? I can kill goyf with basically any creature removal out there. Those are maindecked. To deal with Skullclamp, I'd need stuff that is somehow dead against anything that doesn't pack it. Control, aggro-control and aggro would surely have a harder time dealing with decks packing skullclamp than those without it. It's not like Counterbalance counters whatever you want anytime you want.

I agree 100% with what Nihil said.

[TeenieBopper]

This statement is dumb. Skullclamp is easier to deal with, even pithing needle kills it. Not to mention you need creatures. Control decks could just not let you have them. Not to mention it could be a great answer to the 500 decks playing counter top.

This statement is just dumb. Even Oxidize kills it. So does shatter and Viridian Zealot/Shaman. Didn't stop the card from being busted as fuck.

Do you even remember Mirrodin era T2? I do. Fucking sucked.The card is totally absurd, and not good for the format.

[Bryant Cook]

This statement is just dumb. Even Oxidize kills it. So does shatter and Viridian Zealot/Shaman. Didn't stop the card from being busted as fuck.

Do you even remember Mirrodin era T2? I do. Fucking sucked.The card is totally absurd, and not good for the format.

Do you remember 1.5 when it was legal? No one cared. Half the people posting never played when it was legal. We have better combo now and better control. The card is overrated, and people are afraid of change.

[TeenieBopper]

Do you remember 1.5 when it was legal? No one cared. Half the people posting never played when it was legal. We have better combo now and better control. The card is overrated, and people are afraid of change.

Hey, do you remember 1.5 when it was legal? Remember Dragon?

Spat is right. Skullclamp is slow. That's why it was never played in 1.5, because that format was crazy fast.

And fine, you know what? I am scared of change. Sorry if I don't find a format of saddled up 'goyfs and Storm combo all that appealing. Because that's surely what the format would devolve into.

[Jak]

I think this would be one of those times where you test the card. The format has changed a ton since Clamp was banned and the only way to kno whow powerful it would be is to actually put it into a deck and test it.

[Bryant Cook]

Hey, do you remember 1.5 when it was legal? Remember Dragon?

Spat is right. Skullclamp is slow. That's why it was never played in 1.5, because that format was crazy fast.

And fine, you know what? I am scared of change. Sorry if I don't find a format of saddled up 'goyfs and Storm combo all that appealing. Because that's surely what the format would devolve into.

Dragon was a turn 3 combo deck. OMG. No, really? That lost to swords to plowshares and disenchant. Now we have combo that wins on turn 1.5 on average. Half of dragon. The format of dragon was slower than what we have now.

Wait, you're a afraid of a format full of goyfs and Storm combo? LOL, like thats dramatically different than what we're playing with right now.

[TeenieBopper]

Dragon was a turn 3 combo deck. OMG. No, really? That lost to swords to plowshares and disenchant. Now we have combo that wins on turn 1.5 on average. Half of dragon. The format of dragon was slower than what we have now.

Yeah, and TES packs it to thresh, counter-top, chalice, meddling mage, etc. Except for the part where it really doesn't. The whole point is that just because we say a card or deck totally packs it to something, it usually doesn't.


Wait, you're a afraid of a format full of goyfs and Storm combo? LOL, like thats dramatically different than what we're playing with right now.

You can justify running decks without Tarmogoyf right now. You wouldn't be able to if Skullclamp was legal. I think Nihil is mistaken about Dragon/Faerie stompy winning through active clamp. Almost nothing can win through active clamp. The unbanning of skullclamp would invalidate a lot more decks than it would make viable. If Skullclamp was legal, the format would be decks with 'goyf+clamp and storm combo. That's it. Not my idea of a fun format.

Skullclamp is a completely polarizing card, and those are bad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Skullclamp is fundamentally a terrible card. When it comes down, generally one of two things will happen;


1) You'll crush the opponent with overwhelming card advantage.

2) You'll die to something faster than your Skullclamp deck that you couldn't really deal with.

It pretty much puts the seal on any hope of interactivity in a game, is the thing. No, it's not "broken" in the sense that it doesn't win that fast, and it sucks in combo, but it pretty much means that the game's about done one way or another, unless it's dealt with; and it was always far more effective to deal with Skullclamp by killing the person controlling it than to expend resources attacking a one mana artifact.


Also, it would make Mono-White Control busted. True story.


Mother fuckers probably think I'm joking.

[Peter_Rotten]

Do you remember 1.5 when it was legal? No one cared. Half the people posting never played when it was legal. We have better combo now and better control. The card is overrated, and people are afraid of change.

No. When the card was legal, so was Workshop, Mana Drain, and Bazaar of Baghdad. (And of course Land Tax :tongue: ). Skullclamp was sorta crappy in an environment with Dragon, Landstill with Drains, and wMud. We can't look at it in 1.5 and then say it won't be broken in Legacy. Apples and Kiwis.

[TeenieBopper]

Also, it would make Mono-White Control busted. True story.


Mother fuckers probably think I'm joking.

I think you're wrong. I played mono-white control when Skullclamp was legal. Sure, against most people you were fine with infinite board sweepers, but against anybody who had half a clue, you were up shit creek.

[thefreakaccident]

As someone who usually plays landstill/threshold... I would love to put my two cents into this thread:

Who gives a flying fuck about this card?

Landstill will just counter the crit/kill it and let the equipment sit there until it can EE/Deed it away... true story... I would much rather goblins play this first turn than a vial, also true story.

With threshold, same idea, except you can just swing in a bunch of times and hope they do waste the mana/early turns trying to draw a couple cards, while weakening their board state, and drawing cards that you can just counter... not to mention you can just pithing needle the card/o-ring/grip it whenever the fuck you please.

I have no doubt it would be decent in the agro v agro MUs, but aside from that, I don't see it being very good at all.

Just test the card and stop whining about what it did to T2, I would hope legacy could cope better than T2.

[Watcher487]

No. When the card was legal, so was Workshop, Mana Drain, and Bazaar of Baghdad. (And of course Land Tax :tongue: ). Skullclamp was sorta crappy in an environment with Dragon, Landstill with Drains, and wMud. We can't look at it in 1.5 and then say it won't be broken in Legacy. Apples and Kiwis.

While yeah this was crappy in the older format, it has the one thing that Wizards is really scared of in any format POTENTIAL. Going off Turn 1 w/Kobold Clamp wasn't out of the picture back when it was legal, but was like belcher currently is, a well timed counterspell or Chant proved deadly. Aggro doesn't need the tempo loss especially since it doesn't help the bad match-ups in the first place (I really want to trade THREATS for Card Advantage, especially against decks running Counter-Top). Aggro is fine currently in the format as of right now.

Other that that, I'm done here. This will probably degrade down to a ban - unban thread.

[moxpearl]

I just want to add that Skullclamp is legal in MTGO Classic format and it's not that heavily played and it's not broken. I play Breakfast and I want to see a skullclamp come down on the other side because it's not going to get going until turn 3. In fact, I see the Classic versions of Threshold and Landstill, and they never play skullclamp.

Is there something special about the Classic card pool that keeps SkullClamp in check? 1 vampiric and 1 flash? No. Lack of other cards available in Legacy? Possibly, but my hunch is that it would be a fair card in the format.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Skullclamp is fundamentally a terrible card. When it comes down, generally one of two things will happen;


1) You'll crush the opponent with overwhelming card advantage.

2) You'll die to something faster than your Skullclamp deck that you couldn't really deal with.

It pretty much puts the seal on any hope of interactivity in a game, is the thing. No, it's not "broken" in the sense that it doesn't win that fast, and it sucks in combo, but it pretty much means that the game's about done one way or another, unless it's dealt with; and it was always far more effective to deal with Skullclamp by killing the person controlling it than to expend resources attacking a one mana artifact.
Are you all just skipping this post? Jack summed it up really well. Skullclamp is an awful card to have around, and that becomes pretty obvious once you sit across from it once or twice.

If the card is legal in Classic, and people really aren't playing it, that probably means they're being dumb.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Disclaimer for all the biting sarcasm: I wuv u guys.


Is it easier to deal with than Goyf? I can kill goyf with basically any creature removal out there. Those are maindecked. To deal with Skullclamp, I'd need stuff that is somehow dead against anything that doesn't pack it.

No, you just need to win quickly. Goyf single-handedly swings the board state. Clamp doesn't do anything on its own.


Skullclamp is fundamentally a terrible card. When it comes down, generally one of two things will happen;


1) You'll crush the opponent with overwhelming card advantage.

2) You'll die to something faster than your Skullclamp deck that you couldn't really deal with.

It pretty much puts the seal on any hope of interactivity in a game, is the thing. No, it's not "broken" in the sense that it doesn't win that fast, and it sucks in combo, but it pretty much means that the game's about done one way or another, unless it's dealt with; and it was always far more effective to deal with Skullclamp by killing the person controlling it than to expend resources attacking a one mana artifact.

How the hell does this work? It's not fast, or even necessarily relevant, but it gives you card advantage, eventually, so let's ban it?


Regarding Thresh: It's not the bees knees right now, but it would play Skullclamp itself. It would have no reason not to. Skullclamp>Ponder. Shit, I'd go so far as to say Skullclamp ~ Brainstorm. The card is that retarded.

What about the fact that Clamp would suck in Threshold? Is that a good reason? You know what a deck running maybe 10 threats can't go through like popcorn? Any guesses? Especially when 4 of those guys can't even put on the damned thing.

Be serious.


No. When the card was legal, so was Workshop, Mana Drain, and Bazaar of Baghdad. (And of course Land Tax ). Skullclamp was sorta crappy in an environment with Dragon, Landstill with Drains, and wMud. We can't look at it in 1.5 and then say it won't be broken in Legacy. Apples and Kiwis.

But we can list a bunch of decks and make the assumption that because they run creatures, Skullclamp would automatically fit there AND be format unbalancing?

Your logic doesn't fit. If the format was more powerful back then, why wasn't every creature deck running Skullclamp? Shouldn't the apparently insane power of Clamp have been an auto-include for any creature deck hoping to compete, since apparently all you need to abuse Skullclamp is guys that can theoretically die?

[AngryTroll]

I think that Skullclamp would make considerably more splash than it is being given credit for. First, Affinity would get a draw engine to rival Goblins. Whether Goblins would play it or not is up for debate, but it seems like a strong possibility. Goyf Sligh might even test the card to put on Goyfs and Marauders.

Midrange decks like Survival would certainly benefit from the card. With the deck already playing small creatures and trying to drag the game on into the midgame, a second card advantage engine would be a huge advantage.

Skullclamp is a recurring card advantage engine. It's effect on the game would probably be similar to Survival or Loam- isn't going to win the game on the spot. But if it goes unchecked for several turns, it will probably provide enough card advantage to win the game. For example, a Skullclamped Goyf trades with other Goyfs and draws two cards.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's effect on the game would probably be similar to Survival or Loam- isn't going to win the game on the spot. But if it goes unchecked for several turns, it will probably provide enough card advantage to win the game. For example, a Skullclamped Goyf trades with other Goyfs and draws two cards.

Agreed.

So why not unban it?

[Rood]

Maybe I dont really understand how broken this is since I wasnt really playing too much magic during the affinity/clamp days. But honestly would skullclamp ruin the format? Where could it be broken?

Clamp wouldn't completely destroy the format but it would definetally not benefit from having it in. Aggro decks would run rampant with Clamp ownage. Specific ones in general I can see Affinity, Goyf Sligh, Gobbs, Elves. I can tell you if they brought back Clamp needle would see a shitload more play.

[AngryTroll]

Agreed.

So why not unban it?

I'm not sure it couldn't be unbanned. I'd be very interested to see how much effect it would have on the game. With most decks running Krosan Grip now, it certainly isn't unanswerable.

On the other hand, it is a very powerful card, as anyone that played Type Affinity (2) remembers. I understand the hesitation to unban it.

Sidenore: I had a casual deck I built so the casual players around here would stop complaining. It had Skullclamp, Yavimaya Elder, Penumbra Bobcat, and Natural Order in it. Good times.

[memnarch]

There may come about a really good storm deck with kobolds. Thats the only danger I can see. Through in some Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walkers. some stuff to sac em too: cabal theropy, Diabolic Intent, and Culling the Weak. You add the fact that we can play more accelaration then vintage: LOD, chrome mox etc. and you could have a blazing fast combo deck on your hands.

But sure why not? I'm not opposed to unbanning it.

[Tacosnape]

The real question is why we can have threads like this in the first place where everybody has an opinion that, according to them, is the gospel of Magic.

[DeathwingZERO]

The card would suck here, end of story. Comparing it to Standard when it was around is like saying Tooth, Ravager, Extraction, Plow Under, Boseiju, Jitte, and Kiki-Jiki are busted in this format. LOLZ

It MAY swing some aggro matches against terribly built control decks. But really, do those control decks exist? All the top ones here have either Shackles, Deed, EE, Needle, Stifle, Grip, StP...........the list goes on. Most of the decks even have more answers than the number of Clamps they'd be going up against in a single match.

It also would swing aggro mirrors. But they are the only ones to benefit from it. So truthfully, it's saying "whoever gets Clamp down without it being isolated to uselessness, wins". This isn't much different than "whoever gets down the fatty that survives longer, wins". Rather than going for a stronger creature that'll beat up the others, you are going to attempt to outdraw them. I'm all for that. It'd make those matches a hell of a lot quicker, and much less boring to watch.

Combo decks? LOLZ again. Kobold-Clamp-Glimpse.dec is probably the most overrated storm deck out there, and it never even showed up to play. Seriously, Dragon has a better chance of getting a successful storm count off than this deck, and that deck at least packed 4 Force and Duress when it felt like it. KC can pack MAYBE 4 Unmasks. But the rest of the deck is utter garbage, and it has literally no alternate win conditions. You storm to win, or you lose. It's easily the most suicidal storm deck out there next to Meandeck SX in Vintage.

Here's why it won't be unbanned: It's boring, and doesn't breed any new creativity. That's it. There's no potential to bust it, every deck can potentially pack answers that are just as fast (or even faster....lub me sum Needle ackshun), and it'd be a blip on the radar in aggro mirrors, which are obviously a dime a dozen in this format.

So the real question comes down to this: Why do you want it back?

[thefreakaccident]

This thread has surprisingly stayed quite civil... I would lock it while we are ahead, as it can only go down hill from here.

[Maagler]

Combo decks? LOLZ again. Kobold-Clamp-Glimpse.dec is probably the most overrated storm deck out there, and it never even showed up to play. Seriously, Dragon has a better chance of getting a successful storm count off than this deck, and that deck at least packed 4 Force and Duress when it felt like it. KC can pack MAYBE 4 Unmasks. But the rest of the deck is utter garbage, and it has literally no alternate win conditions. You storm to win, or you lose. It's easily the most suicidal storm deck out there next to Meandeck SX in Vintage.


Agreed, I played this deck for a little while and i don't see it being any more powerful than tes or ichorid.

[matelml]

With Skullclamp legal any aggro mirror comes down to who has the Clamp and control decks wouldn't be able to beat any good aggro deck anymore. Sure it can be answered, but it's a lot harder to answer than creatures and we all know answers to broken cards don't make the broken cards fair. It's too strong, I even think I would be able to build a combo deck with it.

[zulander]

I'd put it in GAGOMY, but that's just me. Literally.

[Willoe]

What is GAGOMY anyway? I forgot :P

[kabal]

What is GAGOMY anyway? I forgot :P

GAGOMY (Gators, Apes, Goyfs OMY) (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6778&highlight=GAGOMY)

[Sims]

I'm not going to get involved in this thread, as ban/unban threads in general are pretty stupid, but I'd play it in goyf sligh all day long.

[SilverGreen]

Because you weren't a good little boy and you didn't eat all your vegetables.You're so funny. Want a cookie, champz? ;)

I agree with people saying that Skullclamp is slow for the format, at least in an Elves or Goblins shell. But Afinnity would reestablish its combo facet, and I think it could become completelly nuts with it, as it was in all Constructed formats during its Mirrodin-era kingdom. Affinity is held in check in Extended and Legacy due to the higher amounts of hate and splash-hate that are widely played in the formats (Deeds, Explosives, etc.). The Clamp would fix this deck's vulnerability, giving it a refuel device even better than Ringleader in Gobbos. Perhaps, it would turn Pithing Needle an obligation in all kind of decks.

But even with all of this, I would like to see it (alongside Land Tax) played in Legacy, at least for a period of time, as a test. Preferentially in a safe time, without a Legacy GP in the horizon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How the hell does this work? It's not fast, or even necessarily relevant, but it gives you card advantage, eventually, so let's ban it?

It works on the principle that the point of the happy-pretendy-fun-time-game of the Magical gathering type cards is to be an enjoyable and interesting game experience. It is not to be fair. Fairness in gameplay is merely a tool to this end that usually also serves as a good guideline to how enjoyable and challenging a game will be. But it's not everything. Diversity (and thus, surprise and more interacitivty challenges) is an important feature as well. Skullclamp isn't necessarily unfair (in Legacy) but it puts stifling limits on deckbuilding. It makes few new strategies viable, makes a number unviable, and must by virtue of it's power and colorless requirements automatically suck up four slots in most aggressive decks, if not main than at least in the side; and it's place there must still dictate other cards in the deck. It's got every problem Tarmogoyf has but more so, and I'd keep it banned for the same reason I'd ban the goyf.

[chokin]

I'm not for or against Clamp being unbanned. This card would be pretty amazing in some decks. It'd be an auto include for many aggro decks so that when they lose a creature, they still keep their hands full.

I'm not sure that it would be as broken as some people claim. I don't think it would warp the format or make "good aggro impossible for control to beat". Tarmogoyf is pretty busted, but it just means you have to change up your gameplan a bit and pack removal to deal with it. If you expect Clamp, put in cards to beat Clamp, and continue to play. There are tons of cards that could deal with it that could fit in any deck. Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Pithing Needle, and probably more already thought of or mentioned.

[Shriekmaw]

I think Skullclamp would change for format a little, but I don't consider it being broken at all. Especially since we have combo decks that go off on turn 1 in the format and can vary easily win by turn 3 or 4. I just love the idea of getting the card back because then I believe Affinity would be a lot better even though more people with h.ave hate for it.

I do realize that the format is more toward aggro these days just because Wizards consistency is printing better aggro cards than control cards these days.

The decks I believe Skullclamp would be in are the following: Affinity, Goblins, Blue Skies, Aggro Rock decks, Elves, and possibly Survival.

[Machinus]

The reason why we can't have skullclamp is because the DCI had a very bad experience with it recently. It has nothing to do with the power of the card, which is on par with many Legacy cards. It's really debatable whether or not it would be good in the format.

[Anusien]

Considering the format is somewhat healthy now, is there a reason to unban Skullclamp and take the risk? It seems like the only value in favor of unbanning Skullclamp is the desire to have a shorter ban list.

I'm imagining the card in Faerie Stompy, for one. Faerie Stompy's biggest problem has always seemed to me to be its inconsistency; if it gets a turn 1 Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet it is going to roll the opponent, but if it just gets Cloud of Faeries + Chalice of the Void, it's in trouble. Skullclamp turns Sea Drake into a 4 turn clock and turns every creature opening into a Sea Drake opening.

To the people who have said that Skullclamp is irrelevant to the control decks because they just counter all the creatures, you're wrong. Landstill has never had to counter all the creatures before; it can't because it doesn't have enough counters. In a Skullclamp aggro fight versus control, Skullclamp aggro will win everytime it clamps even once. Can you imagine some sort of RG deck clamping a Tarmogoyf? That's going to require not just a removal spell but Deed; otherwise when you kill Tarmogoyf they are going to reload and find another huge beater.

[Bardo]

The reason why we can't have skullclamp is because the DCI had a very bad experience with it recently. It has nothing to do with the power of the card, which is on par with many Legacy cards. It's really debatable whether or not it would be good in the format.

I definitely agree with your first and third points (i.e. all card bannings are in a part a response to a public relations disaster and that Wizards would be taking a considerable risk to unban such a problematic card (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7256.html)in the past). They'll also be looking a Legacy, at least in part, through the Flash filter -- so, I think the odds of ever playing with Skullclamp in Legacy anytime soon is pretty doubtful.

Regarding its power, I've played with it and against it and its quite a stupid card--for its cost and affect in any game where it's on the board, I'm happy to see it on the Banned List.

Whether or not it would be any good is what it comes down to, for me. It would certainly been seen in Gobs and Affinity and I have no doubt someone would find some degenerate way to turn it into a truly abusive combo engine; but that obviously remains to be seen.


If you expect Clamp, put in cards to beat Clamp, and continue to play. There are tons of cards that could deal with it that could fit in any deck. Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Pithing Needle, and probably more already thought of or mentioned.

That's not the way to look at it. Every powerful card has foils--like the Flash combo could be disrupted a million and half ways, but that doesn't mean it wasn't busted beyond belief. (Not necessarily comparing Flash to 'clamp here, but the point remains that the existence of answers doesn't mean things won't get out of control.)

[BreathWeapon]

I doubt Trinket Mage -> Skullcamp and sacrificing Cloud of Faeries is going to be worth Faerie Stompy's time, but the thought of people splashing blue just for Trinket Mage -> Skullcamp in aggro is kind of neat. I could see Affownity abusing the shit out of that actually.

[AngryTroll]

The decks I believe Skullclamp would be in are the following: Affinity, Goblins, Blue Skies, Aggro Rock decks, Elves, and possibly Survival.

Absolutely in Survival, and probably in Goyf Sligh, Faerie Stompy, Angel Stompy (that deck might even be played again) and the rest of the decks that run creatures.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Believe it or not, in a format with a card pool mush bigger than Onslaught-Mirrodin Standard, not every deck running creatures benefits from running Clamp. Unless your guys can die at your whim, the strategy of the deck doesn't fundamentally change. Thus, a deck's match-ups don't fundamentally change. You've traded a bit of tempo for a bit of potential card advantage, but that's all.

And are people actually worried about Affinity being halfway viable? Why would that be a bad thing? The deck is easy to hate out, why not give it something positive?

[ADLM]

Short Answer: Wizards hates legacy

[SilverGreen]

And are people actually worried about Affinity being halfway viable? Why would that be a bad thing? The deck is easy to hate out, why not give it something positive?
Agree. In its golden era, Affinity was able to win many games as soon as turn three with relatively ease, and Skullclamp wouldn't change it. There's lots of Legacy decks capable of win as quick or even faster. The format's cardpool and gauntlet of answers is much deeper than it was back before Clamp's banning. And I dare to say that the ability to recover from Deeds would make life a little less unfair to Legacy's Affinity.



Considering the format is somewhat healthy now, is there a reason to unban Skullclamp and take the risk? It seems like the only value in favor of unbanning Skullclamp is the desire to have a shorter ban list.
But that's a worthy cause per se. The format's supposed to allow us to play (almost) all cards ever released, and the shorter the ban list - respected the limits of safety, for sure -, the better for the game. There's no benefits in a long list of banned cards except keeping the game safe from abuses. The question is: is Skullclamp really this abusive monster in Legacy? If it was able to change the format without warp it completely, I think it would be ok. Legacy could bring it into line.

I advocate a gradual "quarantine" legality period for non-Power cards banned before Legacy's establishment. Sure, not soon before greater Legacy events, as happened with GP:Flash. The real world would be a much better laboratory than the R&D offices or Internet foruns.

[Peter_Rotten]

Ha... I just popped a boner thinking about clamping Keldon Mauradors in Goyf Sligh.

[vigilante]

Ha... I just popped a boner thinking about clamping Keldon Mauradors in Goyf Sligh.
I did that in a Cube draft the other week. The clamping a Marauders bit, not the boner. Although I came close when I got passed Flametongue Kavu and Fire Imp.

[umbowta]

Ha... I just popped a boner thinking about clamping Keldon Mauradors in Goyf Sligh.
Whew. At least I'm not the only one.

[MattH]

Threads like these are why Land Tax is still banned.

[TeenieBopper]

Threads like these are why Land Tax is still banned.

I think Land Tax should be the new Godwin's Law.

[vigilante]

I think the question "are altered-art cards legal in tournaments?" should be the new Godwin's Law.

Oh, and in order to fulfil Godwin's Law obligations, Skullclamp = a Nazi.

[Tacosnape]

I think Land Tax should be the new Godwin's Law.

QFT, 20 Lesbian Points, and you win every thread ever.

[kirdape3]

Skullclamp would actually be the dumbest. Sure, combo beats it, but then you end up with a format that's combo versus aggro versus aggro-control because no blue deck (say, Threshold or Landstill) can reliably beat a resolved Skullclamp. Reason being? Now the creature decks can offset the card advantage of the board sweepers from Landstill, and Threshold doesn't actually have any card drawing - so while they're hoping to clock you while making their one-for-one trades you can just reload potentially relevant cards faster than they can.

I think that Skullclamp cuts off too much design space to be warranted. For that matter, so does combo that can win as quickly as Legacy combo can.

[edgewalker]

Because you touch yourself at night...

[nitewolf9]

Because you touch yourself at night...

win.

[Joe_C]

Because you touch yourself at night...

actually, I touch my wife at night =P

But seriously. Would clamp "ruin" the format? I really cant see it having a huge effect. But maybe I am wrong, I dont see how goblins would make room for it honestly. Aggro needs to win fast, not try to win and draw cards if you kill my creature... eh.

[ParkerLewis]

actually, I touch my wife at night =P

But seriously. Would clamp "ruin" the format? I really cant see it having a huge effect. But maybe I am wrong, I dont see how goblins would make room for it honestly. Aggro needs to win fast, not try to win and draw cards if you kill my creature... eh.

I've never played with or against clamp, so i wouldn't know about it, but i think you've got the problem here : aggro needs to win fast, otherwise it will get nailed by control's sweepers and CA power.

With clamp, the late game is not in control's favor anymore as aggro would benefit from a very strong CA engine. This is the exact same reason why Ringleader is what made Goblins so strong for so long. Only difference being that clamp is reusable, costs less, and doesn't have any color requirements, thus potentially going into any deck.

Now, in fact i don't know if clamp would be strong enough for this to work (as i said, never played the card), but the general reasoning is true. Maybe it could come off the list. Anyway, it's certainly not that safe and should be well thought out.

[C.P.]

Ha... I just popped a boner thinking about clamping Keldon Mauradors in Goyf Sligh.

Is this Play even good, assuming this is early game?

How about I StP your Marauder in responce? That would be a semi-time walk on my part. is it not?

I am not sure if clamp is safe or not, but I tried it in every creature decks in 1.5, and I couldn't do much of anything too broken. Most creature deck cannot afford the tempo loss it gives. Sure, it make control matchup better, but it should not be put in every deck ever like some people claims.

[Arsenal]

This argument is semi-reminiscent of the old Standard-era Umezawa Jitte argument. My ears are still bleeding from that one, so this I'll not comment too much on this argument.

[matelml]

Is this Play even good, assuming this is early game?

How about I StP your Marauder in responce? That would be a semi-time walk on my part. is it not?

But what is I Divert your your StP to your Goyf?! Now I destroy the Goyf and get 2 cards! This must mean Plowing in response to the Equip is bad!

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think Land Tax should be the new Godwin's Law.

Yeah.


Skullclamp would actually be the dumbest. Sure, combo beats it, but then you end up with a format that's combo versus aggro versus aggro-control because no blue deck (say, Threshold or Landstill) can reliably beat a resolved Skullclamp. Reason being? Now the creature decks can offset the card advantage of the board sweepers from Landstill, and Threshold doesn't actually have any card drawing - so while they're hoping to clock you while making their one-for-one trades you can just reload potentially relevant cards faster than they can.

Or Threshold could just smash your face in while your tiny guys die and draw cards that you can't play quickly enough because they have counters and you have to spend your mana equipping up.

PS; both decks have pretty good answers to Clamp; EE and Grip, as well as both having StP.

PSS; Threshold's only one for ones are counters and StP, so Clamp doesn't change anything there. It certainly doesn't offer much help vs. Counter-Top.

[Nihil Credo]

If these arguments about Skullclamp being "just a huge tempo loss to draw a few cards that will be irrelevant once I kill you" were true, then why is 4cc Goblin Ringleader a must-counter or even a must-Stifle for Thresh and Landstill?

[C.P.]

But what is I Divert your your StP to your Goyf?! Now I destroy the Goyf and get 2 cards! This must mean Plowing in response to the Equip is bad!

...StP or any Targeted Crt Removal sees much more play than Divert.

[quicksilver]

If these arguments about Skullclamp being "just a huge tempo loss to draw a few cards that will be irrelevant once I kill you" were true, then why is 4cc Goblin Ringleader a must-counter or even a must-Stifle for Thresh and Landstill?

Ringleader also gives you a creature, with haste too, as opposed to having to sacrifice creatures.

[matelml]

...StP or any Targeted Crt Removal sees much more play than Divert.

This still doesn't mean equiping a Clamp to Keldon Marauders is a bad play, I was just trying to illustrate why your argument doesn't make sense. I know mine made even less sense, but there are answers for everything, it doesn't make threats bad.

[C.P.]

This still doesn't mean equiping a Clamp to Keldon Marauders is a bad play, I was just trying to illustrate why your argument doesn't make sense. I know mine made even less sense, but there are answers for everything, it doesn't make threats bad.

My point is that CA that clamp provides is usually not worth the tempo loss it provides.

If I had 2 mana with marauder on the broad, I'd rather swing in and burn the opponent to win the game, rather than put 1 more damage and get 2 cards a turn later.

Not all threats are equal, and some threats are just much more efficient then others. Is 2 card, 4 mana investment for 4/2 that gives you 2 cards efficient enough in face of combo and control? Also note that Clamp does nothing by itself.

[Hightower]

Also note that Clamp does nothing by itself.

Most cards do nothing by themself.. thats not an argument really

[Bardo]

Ha... I just popped a boner thinking about clamping Keldon Mauradors in Goyf Sligh.

That seems cool, but not otherwise format-busting. Personally, I'm more worried about the possibility of Skullclamp being the centerpiece and engine of a ridiculous combination deck; not its otherwise "fair but awesome" application in a deck like Goyf Sligh, Angel Stompy and the like.

@ All. Anyway, this discussion is pretty irrelevant, other than as random I-fapping, since Skullclamp is never coming off the banned list. But fap away, if you must.

[Bongo]

Although it is hard to gauge the impact of Skullclamp, I suspect that it won't be format warping. There are a lot of solutions in Legacy that the Mirrodin-Era didn't have, the most important being:

Null Rod

Thinking about the current format, I'm wondering why it doesn't see more play, at least in sideboards. Legacy has a lot of powerful artifacts, which makes Null Rod impact even greater:

LED
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Mox Diamond
Tormod's Crypt
Sensei's Divining Top
Aether Vial
Engineered Explosives
Jitte
Sword of Fire Ice
and more

Certain archetypes like Affinity, TES and Faerie Stompy would be hit pretty hard by Null Rod, even moreso with unbanned Clamp.

[SilverGreen]

@ All. Anyway, this discussion is pretty irrelevant, other than as random I-fapping, since Skullclamp is never coming off the banned list. But fap away, if you must.If you haven't a crystal ball, how can you be so certain about it? Just put an "IMHO" at the end of the sentence, and it'll be ok. ;)

Anyway, what's the problem with conjecturing? Discussion foruns also serve for this purpose, don't they?

[Sims]

Although it is hard to gauge the impact of Skullclamp, I suspect that it won't be format warping. There are a lot of solutions in Legacy that the Mirrodin-Era didn't have, the most important being:

Null Rod

Thinking about the current format, I'm wondering why it doesn't see more play, at least in sideboards. Legacy has a lot of powerful artifacts, which makes Null Rod impact even greater:

LED
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Mox Diamond
Tormod's Crypt
Sensei's Divining Top
Aether Vial
Engineered Explosives
Jitte
Sword of Fire Ice
and more

Certain archetypes like Affinity, TES and Faerie Stompy would be hit pretty hard by Null Rod, even moreso with unbanned Clamp.


Null Rod, quite simply, is an absolute HOUSE against a lot of stuff, however I believe that most people have ignored it probably due to the fact that it costs :2:. That may not seem like much, but most of the decks running the 2-mana lands and ESG/SSGs required to play it turn 1 to stop your opponents TES combo are running a chunk of the artifacts listed above. Another reason is that Null Rod hits everything you listed, but not many decks run more than maybe 1 or 2 of the cards there with the exceptions of TES and Affinity obviously being demolished by the card. It makes the card very narrow hate for specific things, where in the format we have players tend to like their hate more flexible and able to hit multiple decks that might not even be of the same archtype instead of just gunning for a few specific things.

[Bardo]

If you haven't a crystal ball, how can you be so certain about it? Just put an "IMHO" at the end of the sentence, and it'll be ok. ;)

Anyway, what's the problem with conjecturing? Discussion foruns also serve for this purpose, don't they?

Normally, I'd "IMHO" it or use the non-net equivalent, but I'm feeling confident on this one. :)

As for speculation, conjecture, etc., like I said:


... Fap away, if you must.

[Jaynel]

Null Rod, quite simply, is an absolute HOUSE against a lot of stuff, however I believe that most people have ignored it probably due to the fact that it costs :2:. That may not seem like much, but most of the decks running the 2-mana lands and ESG/SSGs required to play it turn 1 to stop your opponents TES combo are running a chunk of the artifacts listed above. Another reason is that Null Rod hits everything you listed, but not many decks run more than maybe 1 or 2 of the cards there with the exceptions of TES and Affinity obviously being demolished by the card. It makes the card very narrow hate for specific things, where in the format we have players tend to like their hate more flexible and able to hit multiple decks that might not even be of the same archtype instead of just gunning for a few specific things.

Di has been running it in his GBWR Survival sideboard for a while, I believe. It certainly helps the combo matchup and also deals with Counter-Top to an extent.

On topic, I personally feel Skullclamp could come off the banned list because we have a much stronger format that is capable of dealing with it. I do think that Wizards/DCI is still a bit leery after the whole Onslaught-Mirrodin Standard fiasco so we won't see the card for a while, if not ever.

[MattH]

Wizards also has a lot of lower-hanging fruit to unban before they get to Clamp.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I realize that most people don't play control decks, so they don't tend to think of them, but as I've already explained, Skullclamp completely kills control. And that has a bad effect, believe it or not, on the rest of the format, including letting Threshold get really out of hand. Stop thinking of broken meaning winning at a certain speed and start thinking of it as a simple issue of game balance and which matchups swing which way.

Also, Raffinity coming back is bad because it's a played out strategy. It's boring and linear and done to death. Again, strategy game. Going for the new and exciting and challenging.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Skullclamp only kills control if it also beats everything else. Ichorid beats the hell out of control decks. That doesn't mean we should ban Bridge.

What general decklist do you think would drive control out of the format?

[Thehunter820]

Lolz. It's beyond me how this is even a question.


Creature decks, like Goblins. To give you an idea of how broken it is, it has the power to make Elves competitive.

[iceage4life]

Don't feel like checking out the five pages on this but in case no one has mentioned it, clamp got more stupid with Bitterblossom.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Wow lots of randomness in this thread. First off everyone saying Pithing Needle this and that, get real. It comes down to this, if I draw Pithing Needle and you don't have Clamp I get nothing, I mean I could name something else but then if you draw a Clamp I'm screwed and if you don't I waste a draw and 1 mana, sweet. Anyone would rather be with the deck playing 4x Clamp then 4x Needle because on the flipside if I draw a Clamp and you don't draw a Needle then you are in a bad spot and even if you do draw it we brake even if you're lucky. The best case scenario vs. Clamp is breaking even if you try to match it with a solution that isn't Deed or Explosives, the best case with Clamp on your side is absolutely blowing up and winning a game you shouldn't have a chance at.

Anyways as long as we are talking about formats that don't matter ElfClamp is the shit in Peasant, seriously the only deck I ever lose to with Clamp is MBC, even Burn and Ping/Burn folds to a good SB. It also was a bitch in T2 IMO not comparing to any other card mentioned. If I remember correctly EVERY T2 deck at the time had 4x Clamp then it was banned and every deck was Affinity, then that got banned and everyone played Tooth even though it was overrated.

As for broken or not I'm not sure but I know for a fact it has way more potential then most people here give it credit for. In 1.5 it was never played because the top 3 decks were made with even more broken cards. Mana Drain decks may have had a tough time with it but Mishra's Factory or Dragon deck could either lock-it out or just win by the time it got working. Also it was only out roughly a year with a decreased card pool to what we have now, I mean how long did it take people to realize UW Landstill wasn't the best deck in the format, or that Threshhold was actually a really good deck, or that Pikula.dec was overrated?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Wow lots of randomness in this thread. First off everyone saying Pithing Needle this and that, get real. It comes down to this, if I draw Pithing Needle and you don't have Clamp I get nothing, I mean I could name something else but then if you draw a Clamp I'm screwed and if you don't I waste a draw and 1 mana, sweet. Anyone would rather be with the deck playing 4x Clamp then 4x Needle because on the flipside if I draw a Clamp and you don't draw a Needle then you are in a bad spot and even if you do draw it we brake even if you're lucky. The best case scenario vs. Clamp is breaking even if you try to match it with a solution that isn't Deed or Explosives, the best case with Clamp on your side is absolutely blowing up and winning a game you shouldn't have a chance at.

Welcome to good cards?

A card being able to win the game if left unanswered is not suffiient reason for it being banned.


As for broken or not I'm not sure but I know for a fact it has way more potential then most people here give it credit for. In 1.5 it was never played because the top 3 decks were made with even more broken cards. Mana Drain decks may have had a tough time with it but Mishra's Factory or Dragon deck could either lock-it out or just win by the time it got working. Also it was only out roughly a year with a decreased card pool to what we have now, I mean how long did it take people to realize UW Landstill wasn't the best deck in the format, or that Threshhold was actually a really good deck, or that Pikula.dec was overrated?

This doesn't make sense. The card pool was MORE powerful, so even though decks without those power cards (Bazaar, Workshop, Drain) were succesful, they opted not to play this supposedly busted card?

[Bardo]

The card pool was MORE powerful, so even though decks without those power cards (Bazaar, Workshop, Drain) were succesful, they opted not to play this supposedly busted card?

The "it wasn't busted when it was T1.5-legal" argument doesn't hold much water for a couple of reasons. For one:

Release of Darksteel (Skullclamp printed): February 6, 2004
Skullclamp Banned in Standard and Mirrodin Block Constructed: June 1, 2004
Skullclamp Banned in Type 1.5: September 1, 2004

There was a little less than nine months to really go hog-wild with the card in Legacy / Type 1.5. Also, it wasn't until regionals in the spring of 2004 that the card really took off, culminating in its bannination in the summer B&R update. Then it was banned three months later when modern 1.5 was created. So, there wasn't that much time to develop and evolve decks trying to break Skullclamp. It was in Angel Stompy though, wasn't it?

Also, how many people were actively trying to break 1.5 of olde' apart? Like sixty people? There also weren't that many serious tournaments for people to roll up their sleeves and give them the motivation to break the format in half (no 1.5 GPs, no SCG Duel for Duals; maybe a side event at GenCon, but it definitely wasn't a high-profile format that had the attention of that many people).

So, the fact that Skullclamp wasn't broken 4 years ago is no indication of what may be possible now.


Welcome to good cards?

A card being able to win the game if left unanswered is not suffiient reason for it being banned.

Agreed. Left alone, Ajani Goldmane will win the game in a couple of turns, but no one is clammering for that card to be banned.

[kirdape3]

Did you actually play Skullclamp (or 1.5 for that matter) when those two entities co-mingled? Basically, how it worked was Skullclamp was a completely degenerate mistake in any deck that somehow wasn't dead on turn 2. Things like clamping creatures just to run them into larger creatures and draw 2 cards occurred, since the two cards were enough to kill off the larger creature and still leave you ahead. Repeat ad nauseam.

Basically, take Vial Goblins now, add 4 Skullclamps, and be very sad, because that would be half the format at a minimum. Skullclamp was in the Goblins decks in that Standard, too.

[frogboy]

It was in Angel Stompy though, wasn't it?

It was the draw engine with Decree of Justice. :B

[TeenieBopper]

It was the draw engine with Decree of Justice. :B

Dude, don't mock. I got a half stock every time I did that.

[frogboy]

I wasn't mocking. Me and Zilla built it. Do you have any idea how awesome it is to open on Plains, Savannah Lion, go, and have every table within ten feet staring at you?

[TeenieBopper]

Yes, because I used to play it. I would go like X-2 for multiple 9th place finishes at large (1.5/Legacy speaking) events. I think I was one of Zilla's primary testing partners at the time too. But that was a long time ago.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Did you actually play Skullclamp (or 1.5 for that matter) when those two entities co-mingled? Basically, how it worked was Skullclamp was a completely degenerate mistake in any deck that somehow wasn't dead on turn 2. Things like clamping creatures just to run them into larger creatures and draw 2 cards occurred, since the two cards were enough to kill off the larger creature and still leave you ahead. Repeat ad nauseam.

I can't tell if you're being serious. You shouldn't be, by the way. Yes I played it. No there wasn't any indiation of brokenness.

Co-mingle? Really?


The "it wasn't busted when it was T1.5-legal" argument doesn't hold much water for a couple of reasons. For one:

I wasn't making it. I was pointing out that the argument that "the reason it wasn't played was because the format was more powerful" doesn't make sense.

[luckme10]

I realize I'm necroing this thread, however I believe given the recent price surges and popularity increase for legacy as a whole, allowing this card back into the legacy format would have more benefits. Now, in a post tarmogoyf world, this single card could make weenie decks viable again. Cheaper decks like white weenie, goblins, elves and affinity would be able to perform better in today's metagame, creating a larger popularity for these mono colored, economical, decks. This would, in turn, deter the demand and price inflation for key legacy staples such as dual lands and tarmogoyf.

[Peter_Rotten]

If you start your post with this:
I realize I'm necroing this thread... there is a good chance that you are right.

Locked.