Hypothetical Card

[quicksilver]

First off, this thread is about a hypothetical card. If you don’t care about such useless things, you can stop reading now. But since I always wanted to be a card creater at heart, this interests me.

I just was wondering what people think of the following card:

Casting cost: :g:
Type: Instant (probably uncommon)
Text: Until end of turn, permanents, spells, and players cannot be the target of spells or abilities.


What I was looking for is a card in green that can give some utility, specifically against combo decks, that is good enough to be run in the main and still fitting in the flavor of green.

What I want to know is if people think this card is too good? Would it be playable at 2 mana, either :1::g: or :g::g:?

I want to look at this card mostly from a legacy perspective, but you can keep in mind how it could impact other formats.

So what do you think?

[smoky squirrel]

Let me take a shot at it. This card feels very Orim's Chant like, but also feels very green. If you were to determine a casting cost, I would make it WG or hybrid W/G W/G, with the addition of 'Draw a card' And I think the non-hybrid CC is the way to go, to make it more restrictive to put to full use in combo, but if you do, it is quite good.

My 2 cents

[Daze]

The problem of the card is that it is a one mana Counter for every targeted spell, which is neither green nor balanced.

[Illissius]

This is strong, but might be printable. It basically combines Avoid Fate/Rebuff the Wicked/Intervene, part of Guttural Response, and a third of Dawn Charm. But it'll (usually) only do one at a time, and it's a reactive finesse rather than a power card, plus none of those other cards ever really saw play (I don't think Response will, but we'll see), which is what makes me think that it might be OK.

As for whether it'd be playable in Legacy, I'm not sure. Maybe. It stops Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, and Tendrils of Agony, among many others, so it's certainly possible. Wasteland, too. Reminds me of Stifle a bit.

Another interesting discussion would be whether the card fits best into green, white, or blue -- I can see a good case for all three. (And yeah, in green it'd functionally be a green counterspell, but it's flavorful, so I'm inclined to say -- who cares. Though it might've been better off in Time Spiral block. Shrug.)

[Thehunter820]

This card could be made, but the problem is that I personally think it would have to be 2 or 3 mana of probably one color, so it wouldnt be broken, and the other problem with it is if you play it in combo you just win if the card isnt countered making them need 2 or 3 counters to stop you so it could very easily be OP.

[diffy]

This card could be made, but the problem is that I personally think it would have to be 2 or 3 mana of probably one color, so it wouldnt be broken, and the other problem with it is if you play it in combo you just win if the card isnt countered making them need 2 or 3 counters to stop you so it could very easily be OP.



Casting cost: :g:
Type: Instant (probably uncommon)
Text: Until end of turn, permanents, spells, and players cannot be the target of spells or abilities.


It will pretty much fizzle every combo deck - if you aren't trying to win via Empty the Warrens which is a moot point as that is a rather weak wincondition for storm based combo decks.
To prevent further abuse by combo decks, you should make it so that every card in every zone can't be target (Dread Return aka. Breakfast would otherwise be unstopable after this).

If you're scared of making it too broken, you could up the cost by :1: and make it cantrip, just like Abeyance or add some other little bonus if going 2-1 is too good (add a mana to your mana pool? Cyling?) - anything above that would basically render it unplayable in my opinion.

[yawg07]

and the other problem with it is if you play it in combo you just win if the card isnt countered making them need 2 or 3 counters to stop you so it could very easily be OP.

If you can't target the player with your Tendrils, you can't win haha

[quicksilver]

The problem of the card is that it is a one mana Counter for every targeted spell, which is neither green nor balanced.

That's like saying Remove Soul is like creature removal which isn't blue. Sure the end result of this card may be very similar to a counter, but the way it does it is very much in green flavor. Why can't green have a card that can handle an instant or sorcery instead of just eating it and hopeing to survive.

And although it does counter most targeted spells, it won't counter all. It can't counter spells that target the graveyard (although you could include that in the card if you wanted it to I guess). Also say for instance you play a targeted spell and your opponent counters it, you can't use this to counter their counter since it will also counter your spell (the effect symetrically hurts you too).

I would think of this card on the power level of spell snare. It can counter a decent number of cards your opponent is running, but far from all, and there are decks where it is very suboptimal or dead against.

I doubt this spell is overpowered since it is almost always just a 1 for 1, and it's a reactive card, so you can't really go broken with it like you can with proactive cards.




I would make it WG or hybrid W/G W/G, with the addition of 'Draw a card'
I'm not a fan of adding a cantrip to it, since it would make it a two for one most fo the time. Also green doesn't really like to leave tons of mana open since it uses lots of sorcery speed spells.


edit:
Combo does have numerous answers to it:
Make you discard it with cabal therapy, toughtsize, etc..
Counter it with FOW
Play chant before they go off
Use empty the warrens, which although not as good as tendrils, is not bad considering your opponent probably used their best way to stop you

And yes the card is symetric, so it's really hard to go broken with it.

[Thehunter820]

My bad, I didnt see the players bit, in that case it would change somethings, 2 mana seems about right for it, probably blue or green, possibly white.

[quicksilver]

The whole point of me thinking of this card was to give non-blue, non-black colors tools for handling combo, instants, and sorceries, that was playable in the main and in the falvor of those colors. So I wouold really not want to see this in blue, I think other colors should get some stuff too.

[Anusien]

I'm not sure that as an Instant this is particularly green. Yes, they timeshifted Avoid Fate, but they also reprinted it in white, but better (Rebuff the Wicked). Also, previous "Players gain Shroud" effects (Seht's Tiger, Gilded Light) were also White. For this card to exist in Green, I strongly see it as being a cantrip Sorcery, probably for GG.

Also the rules text seems a bit off. You're trying to set up a rule (another White trigger) instead of giving Shroud right? I can't put my finger on it, but it seems weirdly written.

[quicksilver]

I'm not sure that as an Instant this is particularly green. Yes, they timeshifted Avoid Fate, but they also reprinted it in white, but better (Rebuff the Wicked). Also, previous "Players gain Shroud" effects (Seht's Tiger, Gilded Light) were also White. For this card to exist in Green, I strongly see it as being a cantrip Sorcery, probably for GG.

Also the rules text seems a bit off. You're trying to set up a rule (another White trigger) instead of giving Shroud right? I can't put my finger on it, but it seems weirdly written.

Being a sorcery would be as effective as a sorcery speed counter spell. Since when did green not get instants?

I didn't write the text to be templated exactly as wizards would want it. Perhaps they would put until EOT at the end, idk.

[freakish777]

I'm trying to envision a way where this will 2 for 1 your opponent and not really coming up with anything.

At first I was thinking along the lines of they target something of yours with a removal spell and you go to protect it, and then subsequently force another spell through later that turn (creating a dead, or temporarily dead at least, counterspell in their hand). Well if they could have countered the 1 green instant, forcing their removal spell, they probably would have, and additionally you'd only be able to force through a permanent, or a non-targetted instant or sorcery (you can't StP their guy afterwards, though you could Fact or Fiction I suppose).

All this said, it would still probably be reasonable to cost it at 1:g: due to the fact that it would see Standard play and it seems a lot more versatile then Spell Snare (sure Spell Snare stops permanents from coming into play, but I'd wager the number of cards this thing potentially answers is larger then the grand total of cards with a casting cost of two).



EDIT:

Price's wording seems fine. You're setting up the protection until end of turn, even for cards that are not currently spells or permanents. Rewording it as "Permanents, spells and players gain shroud until end of turn" changes the functionality. In order to use the keyword shroud in this line, you'd have to mutilate the text to something like "Permanents, spells and players gain shroud until end of turn. Spells played this turn gain shroud until end of turn. Permanents that come into play this turn gain shroud until end of turn." Really I think it's a very green card and a very elegant solution. I just think it could still be playable at 1:g: and therefore have less to worry about testing it in Standard.

[Nihil Credo]

Rules quirk: as worded, you could play a Tarmogoyf, your opponent Forces, you play Hypothetical Card to have FoW countered, but then the opponent could still Plow the Goyf after it comes into play.

[freakish777]

Rules quirk: as worded, you could play a Tarmogoyf, your opponent Forces, you play Hypothetical Card to have FoW countered, but then the opponent could still Plow the Goyf after it comes into play.


No. The way Price currently has it worded, it's setting it up until end of turn for all permanents regardless of whether or not they're in play when this resolves (essentially this card is telling players what they can and can't target that turn, Permanents, Spells, Players). Wording it as "gain shroud" would allow them to StP at a later point that turn (as you're now telling players they can't target "Permanents currently in play, Spells currently on the stack, Players currently in the game").

[quicksilver]

Rules quirk: as worded, you could play a Tarmogoyf, your opponent Forces, you play Hypothetical Card to have FoW countered, but then the opponent could still Plow the Goyf after it comes into play.

I'm not sure of the proper way to word it, but I intended it to effect an new permenants that come into play this turn, although it's not crucial that it does. Also I intended it to effect any new spells you play that turn, but again not crucial that it does. I'm not a card template lawyer.


As for two for oneing your opponent, it could only do that in the same way a counter could, that is if your opponent set it up to be two for oned. Example, he rituals into a targeted spell, which in any case it would have been a two for one to begin with, but he doesn't get the effect he was willing to pay two cards for.



edit: It seems a lot of people would like it at two mana. It certainly wouldn't be over powered then as it would just generally be a narrow counterspell, probably along the power level of remove soul.

[Raider Bob]

I think more of a gree flavor would be

Untill end of turn Creatures and Players can not be the target of spells and or abilities.

Green protects its critters white would protect artifacts/enchantments more so. The player protection is more of a white tool but has seeped into green also.

[quicksilver]

I think more of a gree flavor would be

Untill end of turn Creatures and Players can not be the target of spells and or abilities.

Green protects its critters white would protect artifacts/enchantments more so. The player protection is more of a white tool but has seeped into green also.

That is true. The card isn't absolutly 100% green flavor, but then again there are tons of cards that push flavor boundries a little. Also I wouldn't mind them pushing untargatablility more into greens small slice of the pie.

I suppose I could be happy if this card didn't make your spells untargetable. It certainly would be much worse, it might still be playable.

It could be worded to make your spells uncounterable which would definitly be in greens flavor, but would make the card wording awkward for no real change and minor flavor increase.

[Anusien]

Being a sorcery would be as effective as a sorcery speed counter spell. Since when did green not get instants?

I didn't write the text to be templated exactly as wizards would want it. Perhaps they would put until EOT at the end, idk.
Being a sorcery would let you force your abilities through, but would be much worse about stopping your opponents' stuff. Which makes sense, because you notice how few counters green gets (Voidslime, Avoid Fate, Mystic Snake, Lifeforce). White is much better at countering things than Green. If you want this type of effect as an instant, it may not go in Green. Possibly some sort of GW effect.

Edit: You can wonder about what you want Wizards to print, but I've always tried to define custom cards within the boundaries Wizards establishes. They can break the rules; we follow them.

[Nightmare]

With the exception of Tribal aspects, Green has four instances without assistance from other colors where it grants Shroud to anything - Aspect of the Mongoose, Skyshroud Blessing, Stonewood Invocation, and Sylvan Safekeeper. Compare that to Blue:

Aboshan's Desire
Alexi's Cloak
Diplomatic Immunity
Hisoka's Guard
Mage's Guile
Mystic Veil
Pemmin's Aura
Protective Bubble
Robe of Mirrors
Soratami Rainshaper
Spectral Cloak
Svyelunite Priest
Veil of Secrecy
Zephid's Embrace

As well as having Stifle effects way more often than Green (think Countering Wasteland) and having actual counterspells. Then, look at the instances of white gaining similar effects:

Favorable Destiny
Fountain Watch
Gilded Light
Hanna's Custody
Ivory Mask
Relic Ward
Sheltering Prayers
Solitary Confinement
Spectral Guardian
Spiritual Asylum
True Believer

As well as Pro-color effects and indestructible effects like Seht's Tiger and Sacred Ground.

I fail to see a compelling reason this should be a green ability, no matter how much you want to see it played in Survival.

[quicksilver]

You forget all the creatures in green that cannot be targeted.

You guys are being way to nit picky about flavor, apparently if it's not absolutly 100% in the flavor it's no good. I suppose the new shadowmoor card Guttural Response is too crazy for you guys since it's part green. It should be red/blue since those are the only colors that can counter blue spells.

I suppose if I also proposed a blue creature you would say it's not in blue's flavor since other colors print more creatures.

Geez, people tons of cards are not perfectly on flavor. Green has the flavor of untargetability. It's not like I worded the card to say counter target spell that targets a permenant, spell, or player. This is actually in greens flavor, even if other colors may have it in their flavor too.

I wouldn't mind seeing this card in white. The point is I wanted to give colors other than blue/black the ability to do something about instants and sorceries.

If I wanted to see this card for survival I would have proposed it on a 0/1 creature with flash.

I just want to try to expand greens piece of the color pie since I think it gets too small a share of things. I thought pushing it's untaratability theme was a good direction to go.

[Nightmare]

You forget all the creatures in green that cannot be targeted.No, I didn't. I neglected them for the same reason I did Morphling, etc. It's not the same effect as granting the ability to other permanents or spells.


It's not like I worded the card to say counter target spell that targets a permenant, spell, or player.But that's effectively what you did do. I agree though, that white would be fine with this spell, and I think it would fit better within the scope of the color's abilities.

[Bovinious]

I think this card would be a bit too good, and I also fail to see how it fits into green flavor. I think we should thank our lucky stars they gave us Orim's Chant in Planeshift, because they certainly wouldnt print such a powerful or even comparable spell today.

[quicksilver]

No, I didn't. I neglected them for the same reason I did Morphling, etc. It's not the same effect as granting the ability to other permanents or spells.

Well this spell gives untargetability to permenants, players, and spells. Let's compare it with all the cards that do that. Oh there are none of them, guess this means the card is a brand new mechanic. So why not put it in green.


All you are doing is selectivly filtering cards to fit your arguement. Flavor wise, giving things untargetableness and naturally having it, there really is no difference. If you want to see what colors it fits into, you must include all cards that use the untargetable mechanic, otherwise your argument just looks really predisposed to bias.




But that's effectively what you did do. I agree though, that white would be fine with this spell, and I think it would fit better within the scope of the color's abilities.

However flavor does not depend on the end result normally it's how you got there. Black has the flavor of sacrificing creatures, are you saying flavor wise this is the same as destroying creatures? Black has loss of life, are you saying flavor wise this is the same as direct damage to a player? No it's not. Sure the end result may be the same, but the flavor lies in how you did it, not the end result.


Anyone who says that untargetability is not in the flavor of green is deluding themselves just to be combative and argue. It's in the flavor of green, white, and blue, and there is no reason that anyone of these cannot have it. Sure it may be ever so slightly in the flavor of another color more than green, but there is still no reason green couldn't have something like this.

We don't need to ask ourselves which color would this fit best into flavor wise. We just need to ask ourselves what color could this fit into flavor wise without any problems? And it definitly can fit into green, white, or blue.

[Anusien]

How can you say this fits into Green's flavor, when the card doesn't have one? It has no name, flavor text or illustration. Lacking that, all we have to go on is the text, which is very White for reasons Barnello and I stated.

I mean, you're in CCF territory. You can masturbate furiously to whatever combo hoser you want to print. But odds are good they'd put this sort of ability in White (Gilded Light/Rebuff the Wicked territory) not Green.

[quicksilver]

How can you say this fits into Green's flavor, when the card doesn't have one? It has no name, flavor text or illustration. Lacking that, all we have to go on is the text, which is very White for reasons Barnello and I stated.

I mean, you're in CCF territory. You can masturbate furiously to whatever combo hoser you want to print. But odds are good they'd put this sort of ability in White (Gilded Light/Rebuff the Wicked territory) not Green.

Clearly you do not want to participate civilly in this conversation, so I would please ask you to stop posting. I have stated that this card would be fine in white. But wizards does not follow the color pie that strictly. They do put abilities in more than one color and no one would be shocked if they printed untargetability in green.

And I would hardly call this card a combo hoser. I would say it has the ability to interact with combo, if you call that a hoser, but combo has more then enough ways to win around it.

[Anusien]

So it's okay for you to make your silly reductions but not me?

Anyone who says that untargetability is not in the flavor of green is deluding themselves just to be combative and argue.

I suppose if I also proposed a blue creature you would say it's not in blue's flavor since other colors print more creatures.

My point is that it's not for you to decide how to push the color pie.

I just want to try to expand greens piece of the color pie since I think it gets too small a share of things. I thought pushing it's untaratability theme was a good direction to go.

And yes, untargetability (also known as shroud) for creatures is very Green. Instant speed shroud/counter spells is very much not. Shroud/protection for players is 100% not. It shows up on two spells; both white.

[Nightmare]

I agree with Kevin. The world is at an end.

[quicksilver]

So it's okay for you to make your silly reductions but not me?


You can masturbate furiously
This is the kind of comment that no one needs on this board, if you want to behave like that please go somewhere else.





And yes, untargetability (also known as shroud) for creatures is very Green. Instant speed shroud/counter spells is very much not.
Hmm I forgot stonewood invocation was white.



Given what wizards defines the abilites for each color plus the wiggle room it normally gives, this fits into green.



Shroud/protection for players is 100% not. It shows up on two spells; both white.
Ok white has instant speed shroud for players, green has an instant speed shroud for creatures, niether have instant speed shroud for spells. So according to your arguement it leans towards white more? So much in fact that it would be absurd to have it in green?

Green is the undisputed king of untargetable creatures, white is for players (lol 2). No color is for spells.

Ok let's just make it cost a hybrid :wg: mana so we can end all this argueing cause it obviously fits niehter perfectly into white or green.

[etrigan]

This is why making cards on the internet fails.

[quicksilver]

This is why making cards on the internet fails.

More generally, this is why conversations on the internet fail, they just degenerate into name calling and mocking half the time.

[Anusien]

Both white and green protect creatures (Green has shroud, white has protection and counterspells). Only White protects players. Makes more sense to have it be white. Could be gold or hybrid, but it can't be monogreen.

[freakish777]

Only White protects players.

Why?

[quicksilver]

My main point is I think Red, White, and Green need more answers to combo/instants and sorceries that are playable in the main without being dead in a large number of matches.

Do others agree with me?

Right now the main answer those colors have to combo is race it and hope to win, which is a losing stratagy most of the time. Sure there are a few main deck playable cards that can be ok against combo, but most of those are rather underpowered against most other decks or require a specific deck to be built around them.

Another thing that those colors have few answers to are instants and sorceries. Most of the time they just have to eat them and hope they can still win around them. It would be nice if they had some ways to stop them in general.

I tried to make a card in one of those colors, that was in the flavor of that color (I obviously failed). Can you come up with a balanced card that would be main deck playable, that could give white/green/red some interaction and viability against combo/instants/sorceries?

[Meekrab]

This would be more printable if there was some easily-worded way to make it NOT effect spells already on the stack. G for a fairly universal counterspell is too good.

Maybe something like: {gw} {gw} Instant 'Until end of turn, spells and abilities that require one or more targets may not be played.'

[Zach Tartell]

Why?

He means historically. (Gilded Light, Seiht's Tiger)

[quicksilver]

This would be more printable if there was some easily-worded way to make it NOT effect spells already on the stack. G for a fairly universal counterspell is too good.

Maybe something like: {gw} {gw} Instant 'Until end of turn, spells and abilities that require one or more targets may not be played.'

It would be absolutly unplayable like that, no format, not even draft would take it. It can't even one for one.



As for a universal counter, let's take a look at that. Looking at the DTB forum i choose a decklist that looked to me to be one of the lists that did the most targeting (there may be a deck with more, but if so I doubt much more)


Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
3 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Basic Lands
11 Island

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Quicksand
4 Wasteland


Cards this effects:
Vedalken Shackles: Certainly doesn't counter it. You can spend a card for a little tempo against it. Not particulary good here.

Counterspell: Ok it counters it, 1 for 1. That is assume they arn't countering a spell of yours that targets.

Force of Will: see counterspell

Mana leak: see counterspell

Midirection: sure it will counter it, but it will also counter your spell. Moderatly usefull, if you can't have it then no one can I guess.


Quicksand: sure it can stife this ability, one for one's at best with this. Can't stop them from using mana with this card if they want to.

Wasteland: see quicksand

So out of 60 cards I'd say only 21 is this at least decent against.

Out of 36 spells, it can counter 14 spells (two of which if you counter them you also counter your own spell, and it can't counter their counters if they are countering somethign that's targeted).

So from this deck I choose that had a high number of targets it counters about 1/3 of the stuff. Hardly universal. And there are decks where this card is dead, such as dragon stompy, and sub par such as goblin (wasteland, incinerator, and siege gange, are your real only targets there, and wasteland the only one it can 1 for 1 with).

[Meekrab]

Surely you see the problem with printing a GREEN card that both Stifles things AND counters spells AND wipes out an entire stack of targetted nonsense if it's not going your way? You can't just think of Legacy here, Vintage at least would go nuts over this, let alone other formats (that I don't play and thus won't talk about.)

[freakish777]

He means historically. (Gilded Light, Seiht's Tiger)

I'm aware of what he meant. And it's a fine reason to continue printing White cards that "protect the player." It is not however a valid reason as to why green can't have cards that "protect the player."

[kirdape3]

I'm pretty sure that I agree with Kevin and Adam here (also, the two of them are agreeing on something and I agree with them so the world must now end) on it being a fundamentally white card. It will probably be cost at WW or 2W and cantrip, but there's a ton of ways that a card that says 'give shroud to X classes of things' are white or even blue, and very few to green.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm aware of what he meant. And it's a fine reason to continue printing White cards that "protect the player." It is not however a valid reason as to why green can't have cards that "protect the player."

Actually, that's a completely valid reason. If green treads on that, then what does white have to offer now? Each color has it's primary distinction and defense mechanics, and white is all about keeping the player safe. Green is all about keeping the creatures safe.

This card should realistically be GW, a gold card. Not only are you denying players the ability to target you (white) but also all creatures (green), and denying spells to be played that target (a mixture of the two colors). There's no reason for pushing this into JUST green, as it's not fair to white, especially if it's an instant, which isn't green's forte (nearly all of it's protection abilities are permanent based, either on creatures or creature enchantments). It's one thing to dabble into other color's abilities, it's another to just blatantly take them. I think that's the point that Nightmare and Anusien were both arguing, and I agree.

And yes, they did make the instant speed pump with Shroud abilities, but that was a one-shot rare from a cycle for the mechanic, not the norm. Why is that? Split-second cannot go on sorceries. The Split-second rares were purposely made to be powerful, they needed to epitomize each color in a way that made sense with split-second. Pretty simple logic if you ask me.

[Illissius]

My point is that it's not for you to decide how to push the color pie.

Why the hell not? If you're going to pretend to be R&D, you might as well pretend to be able to make the decisions R&D does; otherwise, what's the point? If everything in Magic were completely defined by what had come before it in the past, no innovation would ever happen, and the game would rot.

More concretely, I think making this card green is very much within the bounds of something you could legitimately decide to do, if you wanted to push the color in that direction. It's not a perfect fit, but it's not a huge stretch at all, either, given the things R&D does more or less routinely*. Green has a very strong "don't mess with me or my forest" bent, and this plays right into it, and as it has some mechanical precedent as well, all the better. As I've mentioned, there are also very strong cases to be made for white and blue, and maybe stronger, but that doesn't mean you couldn't also put it in green if you wanted to and had a good reason.

Seriously, if someone were to have proposed Form of the Dragon around here, some of you guys would've been falling over each other screaming "BUT MOAT IS WHITE!!!!".

* Just one recent example: since when does green get to distribute -1/-1 counters?** Exactly.
** Yeah, there's Thelon's Chant, which is a green hoser against black mirroring the black hoser against green (Tourach's Chant). And nothing else.


Split-second cannot go on sorceries.
Molten Disaster disagrees with you.

[DeathwingZERO]

I had a feeling they were going to do something like that past Time Spiral, but I also hated the following sets with a passion, neglected to check if that changed. It just doesn't sit right that a sorcery gets that ability seeing as split second is just that. I think it's mostly the fact that sorceries with the ability to not be responded to just seems......dirty.

However, that still doesn't really change much as far as the argument is concerned. Had Invocation not been a part of the rare split second cycle in TS (all instants), it would have been a sorcery. Instant speed and green tend to not go together well with powerful effects like that. It tends to act much more up front and has a bit more longevity, hence mostly put on creatures or enchantments, and occasional sorceries thrown in. Nature is slow moving, after all.

[Bovinious]

Instant speed and green tend to not go together well with powerful effects like that. It tends to act much more up front and has a bit more longevity, hence mostly put on creatures or enchantments, and occasional sorceries thrown in. Nature is slow moving, after all.

Might of Oaks, Berserk, Giant Growth, Bounty of the Hunt, etc etc all disagree with you, in fact, pump effects have traditionally been instants.

[DeathwingZERO]

Might of Oaks, Berserk, Giant Growth, Bounty of the Hunt, etc etc all disagree with you, in fact, pump effects have traditionally been instants.

You completely missed the point. SHROUD is the ability I was referring to, the pump effect was merely there to balance out the high casting cost for instant speed Shroud, not the other way around.

[Bovinious]

You completely missed the point. SHROUD is the ability I was referring to, the pump effect was merely there to balance out the high casting cost for instant speed Shroud, not the other way around.

Oh, well you never explicitly said what part you were talking about in your post, and I assumed you were talking about the part of the card that actually mattered, my bad :wink:

[Shion]

Actually, that's a completely valid reason. If green treads on that, then what does white have to offer now? Each color has it's primary distinction and defense mechanics, and white is all about keeping the player safe. Green is all about keeping the creatures safe.

This card should realistically be GW, a gold card. Not only are you denying players the ability to target you (white) but also all creatures (green), and denying spells to be played that target (a mixture of the two colors). There's no reason for pushing this into JUST green, as it's not fair to white, especially if it's an instant, which isn't green's forte (nearly all of it's protection abilities are permanent based, either on creatures or creature enchantments). It's one thing to dabble into other color's abilities, it's another to just blatantly take them. I think that's the point that Nightmare and Anusien were both arguing, and I agree.

And yes, they did make the instant speed pump with Shroud abilities, but that was a one-shot rare from a cycle for the mechanic, not the norm. Why is that? Split-second cannot go on sorceries. The Split-second rares were purposely made to be powerful, they needed to epitomize each color in a way that made sense with split-second. Pretty simple logic if you ask me.

I agree with you on the Green/White aspect. But at :g::w: I think it would pigeonhole the card a bit to much.

Which is why hybrid is awesome. I would propose something like this.

Shielding Winds :wg:
Instant
Players and Permanents cannot be the target of spells or abilities until the end of turn.

This solves the green only problem, Lowers its power level by taking away the "spells cannot be targeted" part, and allows it to maybe see print at a meager cost of one WG hybrid.

It would still answer combo by protecting the player and stop targeted removal from your opponent. The hybrid cost makes it more versatile and can be played in any deck willing to splash green or white.

[DeathwingZERO]

Actually, I personally like that a lot. It gives the protection aspect to both major things, and takes out the very important aspect of the original request: denial to counterspells.

Taking away spell untargetableness (that word is not english, I know) basically means this isn't a given auto-drop for any creature or game ending spell you could very well easily splash the green mana for. But at the same time, it's a great protection aspect from both combo and control alike, being able to keep removal off creatures or spells off yourself for the turn.

The hybrid feels like it's basically cheating the color wheel, but at the same time allows for the color pie to stretch more than it has, giving a broad ability to either color for such a cost. While this aspect may make it overpowered in some eyes, it'd allow for more creative outlets for the hybrid cards in general. Still thinking that upping the total cost to 2 would be fitting though, for some reason it still seems a little too good for just 1cc.

[quicksilver]

:wg:
Instant
Players and Permanents cannot be the target of spells or abilities until the end of turn.


I like this. Although I am not too much of a fan of hybrid mana just cause i think it is to gimiky, if you know what i mean. Taking away spell untargetability does hurt it, but it is more versitile with the hybrid mana. It probably has the right power level here. Would this be playable in legacy like this? I think so. Would it be overpowered? I highly doubt it. Would it be played in too many decks? Probably not.

You would really only want to play this in a creature heavy deck seeing that is how the card will be used most of the time to protect your cratures from creature removal. Would a deck like thresh play this card? I doubt it, it can only save tarmogoyf, and they would rather have a more universal card like a real counter to do that instead.

[Sek'Kuar]

I find this thread interesting, and I like the proposed card. I have always wanted to give each color a Ball-Lightning variant. Actually,the only color I am having trouble concepting is black. White was fairly easy, and blue was almost a cinch. Go figure...

As for the main argument. I think the point is that R&D does things like this all the time. It's perfectly legit. just because something seems weird does Not mean it can't, or even SHOULDN'T be done. in he same vein as the Form of the Dragon... Do you realistically think that if a player had come up with the idea to have things like an all artifact set, and I'm talking even more heavy than Antiquities, that people would have just taken it? no, but Wizards did it and it gave us things like Vedalken Shackles. Granted it had a huge amount of bannings, but at least they were not afraid to try something new, unlike a lot of you. I suppose I'm just trying to say that, in Quicksilver's defense, it doesn't hurt to try new things, and the game usually benefits from such actions. That is all.

[quicksilver]

I find this thread interesting, and I like the proposed card. I have always wanted to give each color a Ball-Lightning variant. Actually,the only color I am having trouble concepting is black. White was fairly easy, and blue was almost a cinch. Go figure...

How about:

Casting cost: :b::b::b:
Creature
When it comes into play sacrifice a creature.
At end of turn sacrifice this.
Haste, Tample
6/6

[Anusien]

Seriously, if someone were to have proposed Form of the Dragon around here, some of you guys would've been falling over each other screaming "BUT MOAT IS WHITE!!!!".
It's entirely possible, and this comes from different philosophies. In every Card Creation Forum I've ever participated in, the rules were to try and follow the existing design philosophies. It's considered tacky in those sorts of settings to pretend to be MaRo and break things. Now like I said earlier, it's not unreasonable to see the card printed in monogreen. If you worked at WotC you could probably arrange it. But if you submit it in green for the Great Designer Search, you're going to get dinged for not playing nicely with the color pie.


My main point is I think Red, White, and Green need more answers to combo/instants and sorceries that are playable in the main without being dead in a large number of matches.
What's wrong with the existing white effects? Abeyance, Rebuff the Wicked, Gilded Light, Orim's Chant, Stonewood Invocation, etc.

[quicksilver]

It's entirely possible, and this comes from different philosophies. In every Card Creation Forum I've ever participated in, the rules were to try and follow the existing design philosophies. It's considered tacky in those sorts of settings to pretend to be MaRo and break things. Now like I said earlier, it's not unreasonable to see the card printed in monogreen. If you worked at WotC you could probably arrange it. But if you submit it in green for the Great Designer Search, you're going to get dinged for not playing nicely with the color pie.


What's wrong with the existing white effects? Abeyance, Rebuff the Wicked, Gilded Light, Orim's Chant, Stonewood Invocation, etc.

Only one of those cards are actully playable in Legacy, and the one that is, i.e. orim's chant, is only playable in very specific decks, i.e. combo or scepter chant. Abeyance has seen some very limited play and legacy and certainly hasn't done much of anything.

[freakish777]

If green treads on that, then what does white have to offer now?

All of the other things green doesn't offer:

More efficient weenies
Removing attackers and blockers outright
Taxing (Mana Tithe, Aura of Silence, Suppression Field)
etc, etc.


I have no problem with Green occassionally getting a spell from time to time that would usually be Red or White, so long as it feels natural, and Green protecting players does. Green getting a Threaten variant obviously wouldn't.

What if we had the following:

Shaman of Protection
GG
Uncommon
Players have Shroud.
2/2

That seems perfectly legitimate. Where white says "I have Shroud," (True Believer) Green would say "We all have Shroud, now let's let our creatures duke it out." To me this card would essentially be playing into the same flavor as City of Solitude/Dosan saying "Let's all play fair and not be tricky." Or Dense Foliage (granted Dense Foliage is outdated, but if it were printed today it would say "Creatures have Shroud"). So why not at instant speed?

I think an argument that having it be an instant doesn't feel green or would be "too good" would be legitimate. But that "Players have Shroud" can't be Green is preposterous. Blue can protect itself selectively with Counterspells, White can protect itself with Circles of Protection and Ivory Masks, Black, Green and White all can at least gain life, somewhat protecting themselve. So why not have another way in which Green can protect itself? The only thing you really have to do is pay attention to the way in which it protects itself in order to ensure we aren't stealing identity from another color. Green is supposed to be concerned about the needs of groups (where as black is selfish), so why not be concerned with what it thinks the needs of players are?