Trinisphere + Suspend (different question)

[yawg07]

When you take the last suspend counter off of something, the card forces you to play it, no may involved.
So now, lets say you have 3 untapped lands, do you HAVE to tap them to play the card or can you not pay and have the card stay RFG?

[Nihil Credo]

When you take the last suspend counter off of something, the card forces you to play it, no may involved. So now, lets say you have 3 untapped lands, do you HAVE to tap them to play the card or can you not pay and have the card stay RFG?
You are not required to play your lands', or artifacts/whatever mana abilities (step 409.1g is entirely optional), so you can decline to and thus find yourself unable to pay the cost to play the spell (409.1h). This will cause the Suspend spell to stay RFG.

If, however, you happened to have 3 mana in your mana pool upon resolution of the unsuspend trigger (say, because an opponent used 3x Spectral Searchlights on you), you'd be able to pay for the spell and would indeed be required to do so.

The reason for this behaviour is that to demand that your opponent actually gets mana from the myriad of possible sources is a rules nightmare; for example, you'd have to call a judge to check that your opponent was not hiding 3x Spirit Guides in hand. It's why Word of Command and Power Sink, in their current Oracle wording, have to make it clear that they're only requiring lands to be tapped for mana.

[freakish777]

This will cause the Suspend spell to stay RFG.

The question is will it stay Suspended as well (suspend doesn't say "If you don't play this card, RFG it") able to play it at a later time (either when you remove Trinisphere, or when you ramp up mana)? If I'm not mistaken it stays suspended (which would mean you're still right, but you made it sound like it wouldn't be able to be played later).

[Lego]

The question is will it stay Suspended as well (suspend doesn't say "If you don't play this card, RFG it") able to play it at a later time (either when you remove Trinisphere, or when you ramp up mana)? If I'm not mistaken it stays suspended (which would mean you're still right, but you made it sound like it wouldn't be able to be played later).

A card is RFGed as part of the ability that allows you to Suspend it. You may then play it once, and only once: at the time that the last counter is removed. If you don't do it then, you're SOL, and it remains RFG.

[etrigan]

Would I be able to add counters to it, and play it later? Or am I still SOL?

[Pinder]

Would I be able to add counters to it, and play it later? Or am I still SOL?

Near as I can tell, if you manage to add another time counter to it, it will get removed during the next upkeep (it still has suspend, after all), and you'll be able to play it then.

Don't quote me on that, because I'm not 100% sure, though.

[revenge_inc]

If, however, you happened to have 3 mana in your mana pool upon resolution of the unsuspend trigger (say, because an opponent used 3x Spectral Searchlights on you), you'd be able to pay for the spell and would indeed be required to do so.

The reason for this behaviour is that to demand that your opponent actually gets mana from the myriad of possible sources is a rules nightmare; for example, you'd have to call a judge to check that your opponent was not hiding 3x Spirit Guides in hand. It's why Word of Command and Power Sink, in their current Oracle wording, have to make it clear that they're only requiring lands to be tapped for mana.

Although you quickly tried to explain it, I still do not understand why you would be forced to empty your mana pool to pay for the spell. Your “3 Spirit Guides” explanation was not clear to me. Would it be possible for you (or anybody) to walk me through such a scenario step by step with appropriate references to the rules? This is one of the intricacies of the rules I do not understand. Mad props to whoever explains this to me.

[Anusien]

Near as I can tell, if you manage to add another time counter to it, it will get removed during the next upkeep (it still has suspend, after all), and you'll be able to play it then.

Don't quote me on that, because I'm not 100% sure, though.
Good luck. There's no way in the game (non-UNH) right now to put time counters on cards removed from the game that is not suspended. For reference, a card is suspended if it is removed from the game, has time counters, and has suspend.


Although you quickly tried to explain it, I still do not understand why you would be forced to empty your mana pool to pay for the spell. Your “3 Spirit Guides” explanation was not clear to me. Would it be possible for you (or anybody) to walk me through such a scenario step by step with appropriate references to the rules? This is one of the intricacies of the rules I do not understand. Mad props to whoever explains this to me.
Err... because that's the rule? Suspend says, "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game." If you could play the card, you do. If you have mana in your mana pool to play Trinisphere, you could play it. If you don't, you can't. So you can choose to pay, but you don't have to.

[quicksilver]

Although you quickly tried to explain it, I still do not understand why you would be forced to empty your mana pool to pay for the spell. Your “3 Spirit Guides” explanation was not clear to me. Would it be possible for you (or anybody) to walk me through such a scenario step by step with appropriate references to the rules? This is one of the intricacies of the rules I do not understand. Mad props to whoever explains this to me.

If you have the mana in your pool that can pay for the spell, you have to use it. However you are not forced to play any mana generating abilities.

[Cavius The Great]

This is a really good question, I've been thinking of something else along those lines and figured I'd post it here in this thread. If I have a Lotus Bloom with the last suspend counter on it, with a Trinisphere in play, does the suspend mechanic get around the Trinisphere or do I still have to pay 3 mana? Also, When I cast a Lotus Bloom with a Trinisphere in play, do I pay zero or three, or do I just wait until the suspend counters are removed and then pay three?

[revenge_inc]

If you have the mana in your pool that can pay for the spell, you have to use it. However you are not forced to play any mana generating abilities.

Ok, I just got what Nihil was saying. Took me awhile :wink: .

[diffy]

This is a really good question, I've been thinking of something else along those lines and figured I'd post it here in this thread. If I have a Lotus Bloom with the last suspend counter on it, with a Trinisphere in play, does the suspend mechanic get around the Trinisphere or do I still have to pay 3 mana? Also, When I cast a Lotus Bloom with a Trinisphere in play, do I pay zero or three, or do I just wait until the suspend counters are removed and then pay three?

Resolving a suspended card (when the last counter is removed), functions like an alternative casting cost.
You suspend something and when the last counter is removed, you may play it for free. Now Trinisphere checks and sees that you want to play a spell which would cost less than 3 and makes it cost 3.
If you can't pay the mana, the Lotus Bloom will just stay suspended, with no time counters on it - you can't play it as you can only play suspended stuff when the last time counter is removed.

When you suspend something (read: remove it from the game, from your hand), you don't have to pay anything for Trinisphere as you're actually not playing a spell.

Link (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#suspend])



Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a player's hand.
The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the removed-from-the-game zone.
"Suspend N-[cost]" means "If you could play this card from your hand, you may pay [cost] and remove it from the game with N time counters on it. This action doesn't use the stack," and "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it," and "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able.
If you can't, it remains removed from the game. If you play a creature spell this way, it gains haste until you lose control of the spell or the permanent it becomes." Playing a spell as an effect of its suspend ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h. See rule 502.59, "Suspend."

[Lego]

If you can't pay the mana, the Lotus Bloom will just stay suspended, with no time counters on it

It will actually no longer be suspended; it will simply be removed from game. For something to be suspended, it must be RFGed and have some number of time counters on it.

[Nihil Credo]

It will actually no longer be suspended; it will simply be removed from game. For something to be suspended, it must be RFGed and have some number of time counters on it.
And it must have the Suspend ability. If you somehow managed to put time counters on a RFG card without Suspend (say, some ridiculously powerful sorcery you pitched to FoW/Chrome Mox), it would still do nothing on its own.

/nitpick

[Pinder]

And it must have the Suspend ability. If you somehow managed to put time counters on a RFG card without Suspend (say, some ridiculously powerful sorcery you pitched to FoW/Chrome Mox), it would still do nothing on its own.

/nitpick

But, if there's a card with Suspend in the RFG zone with no time counters on it, and you somehow put a time counter on it, it will remove the counter and you can play it on your next upkeep.