[deck discussion] Shimsham

[morgan_coke]

Shimsham is a tribal deck that focuses on a pretty much completely unused (until now) tribe: Shamans.

Shamans at first might appear to be a "wtf?" choice, but just consider that all of the following cards are, in addition to their other types, shamans.

Sakura-Tribe Elder, Eternal Witness, Troll Ascetic, Doran the Siege Tower, Vexing Shusher, Rakdos Guildmage, Bloodline Shaman, Masked Admirer's, Nezumi Shortfang, Bosk Banneret, Burning-Tree Shaman, Emberwilde Augur, Essence Warden, Gorilla Shaman, Loaming Shaman, Nullmage Shepherd, and Viridian Shaman. (plus every changeling spell)

The main two reasons to run Shamans though, are the Kinship cards, Leaf-Crowned Elder and Wolf-Skull Shaman. Between these two cards you can generate an absolute Sh*tton of critters for free in a relatively short time frame. With StE and Banneret accelerating all your spells, you can play these out very quickly.

I'm basing this off a completely untuned but still way more successful than it should be extended list that follows the same principle.

Acceleration
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Bosk Banneret
4x Chrome Mox

Kinship
4x Wolf-Skull Shaman
4x Leaf-Crowned Elder

Search/Draw
4x Bloodline Shaman
3x Summoner's Pact

Disruption
4x Burning-Tree Shaman
1x Nullmage Shepherd
2x Vexing Shusher

Recursion
2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Eternal Witness

Beats
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
2x Rakdos Guildmage

Lands
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Badlands

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Pyroclasm

There are 18 lands + 4 mox + 4 ste + 4 banneret. There are a lot of playable shamans that aren't in this list, and I'm not sure that their exclusion is the correct choice. Nullmage Shepherd looks weird, but with all the critters you get out with this deck, it's pretty amazing at dealing with any amount of art/enchant in staxish style builds, and grips are there for things like enchantress and c/b and plague.

This is just a rough sketch of what this deck should probably end up looking like long term, but its got a lot of card advantage and a lot of inherently strong cards in it.

Other cards that I can see someone making a very good argument for including:
Sensei's Divining Top
Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice/Sword of Light and Shadow
Masked Admirers
Viridian Shaman
Rage Forger
Thoughtseize/Duress
Orim's Chant
Swords to Plowshares
Troll Ascetic

I'd love to hear some other peoples' thoughts on this concept.

[Willoe]

Dude, those Summoner's Pact slaughters you. Don't play it.

It is to my knowledge extremely dangerous to run a 4c deck if your deck aren't storm combo or landstill.

I think Leaf-Crowned Elder is very cool, but a bit slow. With 1 chrome mox, you play it turn 3 and have a CHANCE to cheat a dude into play, where you save up to four mana. Æther Vial is a much better alternative. Your current dude curve is

2cc - 20
3cc - 9
4cc - 5

I'd cut 2 in the 4cc slot, 2 in the 3cc slot, and 4 in the 2cc slot and then play Æther Vial. And then say, 8 dudes in the 1cc slot. I don't have a clue of which shamans to play, though. Elemental Harbinger (of course with an Elemental to fetch, could be Lavacore for beats or what you do already play, Rage Forger which to my knowledge is very cool), Gorilla Shaman, Essence Warden, and I think that's it :/ Martyr of Ashes is very anti-productive in this deck.

It's sweet with some weenies, and some removal to slaughter bigger threats. Cruel Edict wouldn't be bad. Or Nameless Inversion if you like. Crib Swap could also take care of Tarmogoyfs.

It's good to see that you can get card advantage with Bloodline Shaman. To be honest, it looks very good with Sensei's Divining Top.

Good luck!

[morgan_coke]

If you get the "nutz" hand, then Elder comes down on turn 2. t1, mox + either STE or Banneret lets you play t2 elder. Also, kinship triggers EVERY turn, not just occasionally.

The deck does contain four colors, but its very close to monogreen. White is for Doran's and Teeg's single white mana. Red is for Guildmage's Goblin ability. Black is for Guildmages -2/-2 ability, to play Guildmage, Doran's single black mana, and Volrath's Stronghold. That's it. Everything else in the deck is Green.

Why does Summoner's Pact slaughter me? I can see arguments for playing Eladamri's Call or Survival of the Fittest over it, but the pact as is lets me tutor for and cast Doran/Elder on the same turn. Not really seeing the downside there.

[Aggro_zombies]

If you get the "nutz" hand, then Elder comes down on turn 2. t1, mox + either STE or Banneret lets you play t2 elder. Also, kinship triggers EVERY turn, not just occasionally.
And if you don't...?

One thing I think I should point out is that Burning-Tree Shaman seems really bad, not just in terms of general usefulness but also when taken in the context of your deck. You have quite a lot of activated abilities and BTS, of which you run four, doesn't play well with these. Or did you never intend to use your Guildmages and Tribe-Elders once it comes down?

Also, this isn't tremendously useful outside of a matchup like Landstill, and even not so much there. Against Thresh, they can most likely race you with Goyf and Goose while using Counter-Top just enough to hold you back, but not so much as to kill themselves. And that's assuming BTS sticks. Against combo, the Shaman is totally worthless. Against control, it's pretty bad against Stax-type decks, and against Landstill it may make use of man lands, Ruins, and EE kinda painful, but that's only until the blow EE for three and then laugh at you because they'll be raping you with EE lock. It's mildly decent against Goblins, but then again Goblins is probably not a positive matchup given how hideous your mana is. Speaking of which...


Why does Summoner's Pact slaughter me? I can see arguments for playing Eladamri's Call or Survival of the Fittest over it, but the pact as is lets me tutor for and cast Doran/Elder on the same turn. Not really seeing the downside there.
EOT Wasteland prior to the upkeep trigger = LOL WUT.

Which brings me to another point: your mana base is terrible. Even if the deck is "mostly" green, you're stretching it by adding in all kinds of other colors for suboptimal cards. I'd recommend ditching the red, the BTS, and the Guildmage for more Witness, perhaps Therapy, definitely Thoughtseize, and a more stable mana configuration: probably 3 Forest, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp, 4 Bayou, and 3-2 Savannah.

Replacement Shamans could probably be Loaming Shaman (always useful on yourself, if nothing else), Masked Admirers (draw plus a decently sized body and good recursive ability), Riftsweeper (Lol @ Swords to Plowshares...by the way, why aren't you running any?), and Troll Ascetic (kind of a "duh" inclusion, since it's one of the best Shamans and can at least hold of Goyf for an infinite period of time). From the new set, Fulminator Mage seems like a decent inclusion if you partner it with Witness/Stronghold recursion and a strong disruption suite - something along the lines of 4 Therapy, 4 Thoughtseize, maybe some more discard.

It will most likely make your Elders less reliable, but Top would help there. And besides, Elder isn't really that great since it requires you to run subpar creatures in your colors (read: things that are not Tarmogoyf).

EDIT: If you really have your heart set on using L-CE, you should look into running Conspiracy. That way you can run good cards that aren't normally Shamans, like Tarmogoyf.

EDIT 2: Whoops, forgot my [sarcasm] tags.

[Mental]

You should play Tarmogoyf because you can't answer Tarmogoyf. You should also be playing 8 peices of Discard, and black as your secondary color. That's the only way a primarily green deck can really be good. Loaming Shaman is also strong and should be in this deck.

The cards I would play, in order of most important to least important, would be:
Tarmogoyf
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Aether Vial
Troll Ascetic
Eternal Witness
STE

And THEN all the cool shaman crap.

[Fons]

I would play Loaming Shaman instead of burning-tree shaman because it gives an answear to goyfs and dredge.

Worldly Tutor seems better than summoners pact if you have leaf-crowned in play.

I was working on a stompy varient that played leaf-crowned and it was working pretty decent. first turn leaf-crowned is amazing.


EDIT:
Just Figured I would post my list.

"Norwegian Wood"

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [RAV] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Leaf-Crowned Elder
4 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
3 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
3 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder

// Spells
4 [VI] City of Solitude
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[frogboy]

I really wish Tuxedo Junction had lyrics so that I could make even more cryptic references.

[Willoe]

Okay, I've saved this post as I was planning to reply last night, but my net broke down. However, a few things have already been said:

You often need creatures in the early game, right? That's here Summoner's Pact is dead. It was not just an expression that Pact kills you. I'm serious (obv.). How many times do you want your to give your opponent a time walk by paying 2GG? It's good at fetching creatures that wins you the game now (Doran), but when playing straight aggro, nothing can be crueler than to go all-in just to see a fast answer coming up and then turning the tide of battle, if you feel me. I hope you do...

Regarding 4c mana base: I see your arguments. But I mean it's dangerous with Dragon Stompy running rampart and all that. >=3c decks often get eaten by Moons. A single magus can win the game with a TEN turn clock just by beating and locking you down. Thresh of course has FoW to answer it, but you don't have any. A resolved Blood Moon at turn 1 makes 13 of your lands mountains. You then have 9 cards that can save your ass. Basic lands and moxen. Isn't that a bit low? I don't know your meta, but I assume that this deck sucks against Dragon Stompy. Increasing your matchup against that deck would be the first thing I'd do.

Play Worldly Tutor instead, it synergizes with Leaf-Crowned Elder. And maybe a high cc'ed shaman to combo with. Of course, it should be a 1-of. Oh, and it's good against discard i.e. Thoughtseize. Of course, you get the dude a turn later, but since it combos sweet with the real MVP of the deck (Leaf-Crowned Elder) and it's a creature tutor that can be played as early as turn 1, I see no reason not to run it. This is not really card disadvantage, just a late cantrip in other words, late card quality.

I'm sorry if I've flamed your deck, but it seems that it is necessary with some fixing. It's not that it's bad, I'm just certain that it can be done MUCH better.

My last words: Thoughtseize would do great in this deck to knock off any annyoing cards. Looks like you have a great aggro matchup, but what happens if you face Counterbalance? Hope to hit the 2 Vexing Shusher? Play Thoughtseize and your overall performance would add up I think. But of course, I haven't tested the deck, so I can't tell. On the paper, it just seems like the deck could use a lot of improvement.

I'm sorry if I've flamed your deck, but it seems that it is necessary with some fixing. It's not that it's bad, I'm just certain that it can be done MUCH better.

Phew.

[snoopYah]

I think this deck is quite promising and I'd use a list of something like this including a lot of things mentioned here:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [UNH] Forest

// Creatures
4 [ON] Bloodline Shaman
4 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
1 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [MOR] Wolf-Skull Shaman
4 [MOR] Bosk Banneret
4 [MR] Troll Ascetic
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [MOR] Leaf-Crowned Elder

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Worldly Tutor

I think you really need SDT because it combos so well with Bloodline Shaman and the Kinship guys. Also here Worldly Tutor > Summoner's Pact. Kiki-Jiki is here for Tutor + Elder. You could also use Guardian of Cloverdell or Trolls of Tel-Jilad.
Actually, 1/2 of the cards are Shamans so you easily trigger Kinship without SDT as well (same for Bloodline Shaman).

[morgan_coke]

After a fair amount of testing vs. Goblins (R/b/g) and 5c Thresh, I've come to a few conclusions about this deck, and what needs to happen for it to become truly competitive.

The goblins games really reinforced what the deck needs to do to be tier 1. From their creatures goblins get tutoring (matron), card draw (ringleader), mana acceleration (lackey, warchief), recursion (wort) and removal (incinerator, wierding).

From shamans you can get draw (bloodline, elder, admirers), creature generation (wolf-skull, elder) mana acceleration (STE, banneret, elder), and recursion (witness, admirers). What's missing from the list is removal. You've got some abilities goblins don't have, such as LD from Fulminator Mage and graveyard hate from Loaming Shaman and lifegain from Essence Warden, and art/echant hate from Nullmage Shepherd, but that just isn't quite enough to make up for the lack of tutoring and removal.

Compounding the lack of removal issue is the simple fact that shamans are, for legacy, about 1/2 turn slow. The closest I can come to finding "on-shaman" removal are: Lightning Crafter, Crib Swap, Nameless Inversion, Hornet Harasser, and Rakdos Guildmage. Swap and Inversion are about the only two of those that are truly viable, and you still suffer from the "no tutoring" issue.

I've also come to the conclusion that Doran is a red herring in this deck right now. Most of the creatures you want to run (troll, masked, witness, loaming, etc.) have higher power than toughness, and the only cards Doran really shuts down that are relevant are Piledriver and Plating. Not really worth the mana issues.

I'm quite honestly unsure of what the best direction to take this deck is, though I think G/w/b, mainly for Swap and Inversion is quite possibly correct, though I can't ignore the power level of the "shaman stompy" (Fons' proposed build) concept either.

Red has a lot of nifty plays available to it, but I think most of them (Lightning Crafter, Pyroclast Council, Emberwilde Augur) fall into the "danger of cool things" category.

I don't think the Goblins matchup is actually that big of a deal as long as 4x Hail Storm are kept in the board. Fog+wipe your board is generally pretty tough for gobbos or anyone else to overcome.

---
Also, good catch on the reference frogboy, I didn't think anyone would get it.

[Drac]

I think this is a very cool deck idea. after tinkering without tops and adding chalice and scroll rack. i decided to abandon the idea. and use counterbalance and brainstorm. which are very nice. ill show my list


Creatures
4 Wolf skull shaman
4 Leaf crowned elder
4 Eternal witness
4 Troll Ascetic (have not been bombs, but i didint test much yet)
3 Shriekmaw

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 brainstorm
4 Chrome mox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out

2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Underground sea
4 Tropical island
4 Pollute delta
4 Flooded strand

Side:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Duress
4 Stifle
3 Hydroblast

I run a full set of counterbalance's and tops because chrome mox is awesome with counterbalance. turn 1 CB ftw. and with all the cards that can make use of the top its 4 off is oke aswell. I run a high fetchcount to make sure my hand doesnt get dilluted with extra copies of stuff i am not in need off. Volrath's stronghold is very nifty with the kinship. Also very good with shriekmaw. i have only tested this list for an hour or so, but sometimes this deck can go absolutly nuts.

played vs UGw Thresh and went like this:

Turn 1: Sea Mox Imprint(counterbalance) Thoughtseize grab force. Play Top.

Turn 2 Trop. Drop Counterbalance.

Dropped Troll Ascetic turn after and gg