[Deck] The Servant's Stone

[kabal]

The idea for this deck comes from a post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=225815&postcount=955) I saw in the Shadowmoor section.

The basic premise is to mill your opponent's entire library once you get Grindstone (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=grindstone) and Painter's Servant (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=146022) into play.

// Lands
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Painter's Servant
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

// Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
2 Ponder

// Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Chill
3 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Serenity
2 Tormod's Crypt


Sideboard suggestions:



- Serenity against Stax. Tutorability FTW.
- More Engineered Explosives for matches in which you really need it. Which are those, BTW?
- Pithing Needle against lotsa stuff.
- BEBs?
- More Dreadnoughts for a stronger plan B?
- Echoing Truth for taking care of permanent hate.
- Are Seal of Cleasing or Oblivion Ring strong enough for taking care of permanent hate?
- Tormod's Crypt?

Maybe something like this:
4 BEB
3 Serenity
3 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt



Affinity version:


After that post I began brainstorming some ideas. This was my first stab at it:

4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 EE
2 Grindstone
1 Jitte
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crypt

4 Painters Servant
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
3 Trinket Mage

4 Seat of Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ancient Den
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
2 City of Brass



Combo Fairies:




// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [OD] Island
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [CK] Painter's Servant
4 [RV] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RV] Serendib Efreet
4 [P2] Sea Drake
2 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [6E] Brainstorm
4 [DS] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Fabricate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Grindstone
2 [TS] Vision Charm

[Cire]

Why not splash white for enlightened tutor? and why not put in counter-top?

Also personally i would stay away from the 2 mana lands and either add in black or red for acceleration instead. or if you keep the 2 mana lands put in shackles or some artifacts. Try not to center the deck to much on the combo.

[georgjorge]

There's not much reason to go monocolored...Playing white would give you a very necessary card for this deck with Enlightened tutor while also allowing you to play EE at two (CBalance, anyone ?). Intuition/Fabricate seems a bit slow, as does Muddle the Mixture. I'd probably try to include CBalance + Top somewhere in there, as Top fits the theme, and CBalance works fine with E Tutor...yea, it would slow the deck down and make it (another) combo-control deck, but that would probably be the best shell for it.

Anyway, the combo is nice, but I think it would have the problem of protecting the Servant from removal. If going for a faster kill (i.e. not protected by CBalance), then Pact of Negation could do very well here, and you could also play Abjure as a cheap way to protect the combo (all your lands are blue and can be sacced) - however, those two couldn't protect the combo well prior to going off, i.e. from Chalice, discard, CBalance...

[Jak]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
7 Island
4 Tundra
1 Acamedy Ruins
4 Chrome Mox

4 Grinestone
4 Painter's Servant

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell / Daze
4 Counterbalance
1 EE

3 Trinket Mage
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Diving Top

This is how the white splash would look?

[Michael Keller]

Just because I'm tired: Lands are colored now too, correct? If so, this is hot.

[kabal]

I thought about including CB engine in a white splash and now seeing it listed out, it looks very strong.

[Michael Keller]

This combo is so hilarious:

You can now pitch Island to Force of Will!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Meh, I think using Grindstone would be better. Also Sensei's Diving Top and Acamedy Ruins are crappy, and strictly inferior to their correctly spelled counterparts.

Jak: E Tutor, Chrome Mox, and FoW in the same deck seems like a lot of card disadvantage.

[b4r0n]

Jak's list looks really hot. Chrome Mox seems like a perfect fit, as does Academy Ruins.

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or how the deck would deal with Krosan Grip?

[kabal]

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or how the deck would deal with Krosan Grip?

CB with Trinket Mage on top

[Osse]

STOP PLAYING DAZE IN DECKS WITHOUT PRESSURE. Seriously. If you're not putting constant pressure on the opponent (which this deck doesn't...) then don't play Daze.

[Mental]

Blue/Red Elemental Blast and Hydro/Pyroblast become "Destroy target permanent or counter traget spell" with a servant in play. Douse is "1U: Counter target spell" if it can stick.

Sure, with a servant in play. No deck should be based around a principle like that. Cards need to be strong on their own, not in conjunction with other cards.

[Race War]

Sure, with a servant in play. No deck should be based around a principle like that. Cards need to be strong on their own, not in conjunction with other cards.

It was just an idea. I wasn't suggesting the deck be based on the combo of Servant and Hydroblast. The deck barely exists and is in the initial brainstorming phase. Thanks for the tip though.

[Jak]

Meh, I think using Grindstone would be better. Also Sensei's Diving Top and Acamedy Ruins are crappy, and strictly inferior to their correctly spelled counterparts.

Jak: E Tutor, Chrome Mox, and FoW in the same deck seems like a lot of card disadvantage.

Could be, but Counterbalance provides a ton of CA with E Tutor and Top.

I wouldn't say Acadmey is crappy. Recurring your win cons is important and getting those EEs back is important.

[freakish777]

Is Trinket Mage going to get there if Grindstone/Servant gets Extirpated? Anyway to get a 1 of Nought and Stifles in here (maybe in the board)?

[Jak]

Is Trinket Mage going to get there if Grindstone/Servant gets Extirpated? Anyway to get a 1 of Nought and Stifles in here (maybe in the board)?

I was thinking the same thing, but I would put it in the board. There is little room and to add it, you would have to take out protection. Extirpate is rarely played MD.

Anybody have ideas on a good SB?

[Jaiminho]

I'll be testing something like this:

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
7 Island
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
3 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Combo
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

// Tutorable utility
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

// Card playage
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

// Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle


Sideboard suggestions:

- Serenity against Stax. Tutorability FTW.
- More Engineered Explosives for matches in which you really need it. Which are those, BTW?
- Pithing Needle against lotsa stuff.
- BEBs?
- More Dreadnoughts for a stronger plan B?
- Echoing Truth for taking care of permanent hate.
- Are Seal of Cleasing or Oblivion Ring strong enough for taking care of permanent hate?
- Tormod's Crypt?

Maybe something like this:
4 BEB
3 Serenity
3 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt

I have no clue about which match ups would be bad. Those are simply brainstormed ideas. The only thing I know is that I'm gonna pick up my Grindstone set right away.

[AngryTroll]

With Thresh the best deck in the format, and Counterbalance a real problem, Red Elemental Blast actually might be playable main. If you run Red, of course.

There will be decks it is dead against until you stick Painter's Servant, but those are the matchups where you should be able to stick the Servant (because he won't be countered). Then you have REB as a counter for Swords/Burn.

[Mental]

With Thresh the best deck in the format, and Counterbalance a real problem, Red Elemental Blast actually might be playable main. If you run Red, of course.

There will be decks it is dead against until you stick Painter's Servant, but those are the matchups where you should be able to stick the Servant (because he won't be countered). Then you have REB as a counter for Swords/Burn.

It seems alright, but in a format with this many options there have to be more flexible cards - Take Spell Snare or Stifle. Either one is more effective if you're scared of Threshold.

REB, however, could exist in the SB if you were so inclined to splash red.

[Happy Gilmore]

After that post I began brainstorming some ideas. This was my first stab at it:

4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 EE
2 Grindstone
1 Jitte
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crypt

4 Painters Servant
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
3 Trinket Mage

4 Seat of Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ancient Den
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
2 City of Brass


It seems like a logical place to have both cards, where comboing is not necessary but easy to do.

There are some other ideas, but I don't want to spoil them before I can confirm that its good.

[revenge_inc]

IMO the strength of this combo is its versatility. You can run it in any deck that supports Trinket Mage. I think the idea of a transformational sideboard has been underused in Legacy. You could do some pretty wacky things with this combo. Let's say your playing Threshold (white splash). You could have in your sideboard:

x4 Enlightened Tutor
x4 Grindstone
x4 Painter's Servant
x3 Trinket Mage

Surprise! I'm a combo deck now!

Another thing I like about this combo is that it is faster than the Time Vault combo.

[rodgon666]

how about this... a BW deck.

turn 1.

Scrub..
play lions eye diamond
tap scrub for black
play dark ritual...
play stone
play other dude
pop lions eye ... win.

^_^

[revenge_inc]

how about this... a BW deck.If you want the combo to be your main win condition, you need :u: maindeck or else you are vulnerable to disruption.


^_^
Ô_Ô

[rleader]

If you want the combo to be your main win condition, you need :u: maindeck or else you are vulnerable to disruption.
[/SIZE]

Or black to disrupt first; I can see the combo fitting into a pox style deck quite nicely.

Of course, if it ever becomes too popular, Pithing Needle foils it pretty easily and it's not like Krosan Grip isn't played.

Still, it makes an interesting transformational sideboard possibility and has the potential to be ridiculous in multiplayer games.

[Willoe]

What about a green splash for tarmogoyf (oh yeah) and Living Wish? If not Tarmgoyf, then Living Wish should at the least be considered. It's also a beast against extirpate :)

Anyway, sweet combo, I like to see that be performed in action. Too bad Painter's Servant can't be grabbed with Trinket Mage.

Transmute Artifact could also be a solution. You would then have to play some 2cc artifacts (obv.), like Umezawa's Jitte? Hey, I got it! An affinity backup plan, or is this too janky?

EDIT: Oh, I am blind! I see that Happy Gilmore already got the idea. Never mind what I said about affinity.

[rufus]

There's also Painter's Servant + Deathgrip/Lifeforce

[Maveric78f]

This combo is one of the best ones in legacy. But you have to run it like a control combo deck, that can win fairly easily on turn 4.

Mana 20
7 Island
1 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of Synod

Cantrip/Draw/Search: 17
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Trinket Mage
3 SDT

Permission: 11
4 FoW
3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell

Combo : 7
3 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant

Misc: 3
3 EE

2 Meta slots among
1 Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg

[dahcmai]

Painter's servant also enables Reap pretty well. I kind of like this new card now.

[CleverPetriDish]

Yes, Painter's Servant probably has a lot of uses to be discovered. I don't think I like Enlightened Tutor in a deck that already features so much search. Is the splash really worth it for just this card?

[Illissius]

The biggest problem for this deck is called Swords to Plowshares. Thank the FSM you don't have to tap the Servant itself, but they can still remove it whenever you decide to Grind them.

[Maveric78f]

Which is not really a problem, because you'll find another one or you'll counterspell/balance, or you'll bring it back with academy ruins. The biggest problems are more grips and extirpates.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The biggest problem for this deck is called Swords to Plowshares. Thank the FSM you don't have to tap the Servant itself, but they can still remove it whenever you decide to Grind them.

You could splash green for Goyf, or put in Stiflenaught, that way they have to use their plows on the big guys or die. Also gives you another way to win.


Which is not really a problem, because you'll find another one or you'll counterspell/balance, or you'll bring it back with academy ruins.

Painter isnt coming back via Ruins if he gets Plowed. Just sayin.

[Silthyn]

Painter isnt coming back via Ruins if he gets Plowed. Just sayin.

You could always try to mill yourself with Grindstone, trying to get one into the graveyard and then bring it back with Academy Ruins :rolleyes:

[nodahero]

I have not tested this deck yet although I may start it seems rather interesting. As a side idea could we try running abeyance and chant as proactive protection similar to the style of Fetchland Tendrils (my current weapon of choice) It seems really good in theory although I'm not really sure it could be run in the current UW list that is on here from Maveric. Though for the record Maveric I highly disagree that this is one of the best combos in legacy... It is way to new to be saying something like that. It hasnt even put up a T8 since it has been out for less then a month (spoiler wise).

[Gambit]

It is way to new to be saying something like that. It hasnt even put up a T8 since it has been out for less then a month (spoiler wise).


WTF; you can't even play with the card yet! This combo is compact and available to every color, at first glance it seems very strong

[Illissius]

Rings/Vault is the baseline. Relatively, Servant/Stone is a bit faster -- one fewer mana total, and doesn't require waiting a turn to activate -- but is vulnerable to creature removal. The former didn't rip up the format, and I doubt the latter will either. It's comparable to Swan/Chain which costs the same total mana and has many of the same vulnerabilities (and was introduced with the same set), and to Cephalid Breakfast, which costs half the mana but is vulnerable to even more things. So it could be pretty decent, but I doubt anything more than that.

Completely tangential note: I sometimes wish Illusionary Mask were legal, so you could run Counter-Top and Mask(/Stifle)-Nought in the same deck and use Enlightened Tutor to find either.

[Isamaru]

WTF; you can't even play with the card yet!
That's no excuse!

The mirror match with would be stupid - whoever plays Painter's Servant first loses.

[Spectör]

Wouldn't Misdirection be a great protection spell with Painter's Servant already out?
If you set the servant to blue you can pitch everything to protect it from spot removal.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You could always try to mill yourself with Grindstone, trying to get one into the graveyard and then bring it back with Academy Ruins :rolleyes:

I dont follow. The fact that Plow RFG's Painter is mutually exclusive to the Grindstone/Academy interaction.

[revenge_inc]

Wouldn't Misdirection be a great protection spell with Painter's Servant already out?
If you set the servant to blue you can pitch everything to protect it from spot removal.

I love how we are already discussing the mirror match of a combo deck that doesn't even have an agreed upon decklist. The first step is deciding what colours the deck should be. My thoughts:
-not red, wtf does this colour do to speed up, find or protect your combo? Nothing.
-not green, this combo is too cheap for mana accel to be really relevant. I don't see what this colour offers either.

You could splash green for Goyf
Not every deck in the format needs a goyf. :wink:

[Maveric78f]

Sword is not a threat, because it only buys time, because counterbalance and counterspells in general deal quite easily with it.

[hi-val]

I'm wondering if there isn't a balls-out combo deck in this. Essentially, you have a combo that doesn't require ten spells to kill the opponent. I would facilitate this with Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED and Infernal Tutor/Grim Tutor to get the whole thing out.

You'll want something that removes the Swords or Krosan Grips from the opponent, so I see Abeyance or Duress to be worthwhile. I'm really curious about whether you can take this into a pure combo shell. You can even run stuff like Pact of Negation or Meditate because you'll never need to see your next turn anyway.

[Nightmare]

I'm wondering if there isn't a balls-out combo deck in this. Essentially, you have a combo that doesn't require ten spells to kill the opponent. I would facilitate this with Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED and Infernal Tutor/Grim Tutor to get the whole thing out.

You'll want something that removes the Swords or Krosan Grips from the opponent, so I see Abeyance or Duress to be worthwhile. I'm really curious about whether you can take this into a pure combo shell. You can even run stuff like Pact of Negation or Meditate because you'll never need to see your next turn anyway.The only question is, is it better than the storm combo decks that do the same, or Belcher which costs one more mana, but only requires one card?

[Michael Keller]

This combo really opens up doors to one's way of deck-building. You can go so many different routes with it that an optimal list would seem almost foolish to assume. You want to stick with a color theme, but at the same time recognize the power of the Servant. He works just fine with any other colored spells that can do harm on an opponent, not just Grindstone.

I'd consider building a supporting cast of counter-magic and tutor effects set with Tarmogoyf. It's almost not a bad idea (because the Painter assumes the color as well) to give your permanents some sort of colored protection. Pact of Negation would be rather risky because even though the combo is two cards and six mana, you still would need to get it off with acceleration paired with blue mana (assuming you're on the play). Otherwise, probably not.

Either way the idea looks fun.

[Willoe]

If you really want to be STP resistant, play that goddamn UG version. Play that Loam. Play combo-loam! Academy Ruins just became a hell lot better. If you don't combo, put grindstone to play, mill yourself a bit, wait until you hit academy ruins and life from the loam, then dredge up loam, play it, return academy ruins, tranquil thicket and 1 random land. Then play, pay 1U, put Servant on top, cycle Tranquil Thicket, draw Servant. Wait until next turn, then play servant and mill the crap out of your opponent.

That might sound too slow, but I think that it could be one of the ways to go. A loam shell is always pretty redundant, and with UG, it should be possible to add that much counters, brainstorms to feed dredges and stuff. Also, you could add Mesmeric Orb if necessary.

Althoug I've never built/played Loam, I have a sample decklist:

2 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
2 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede

4 Life From the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Grindstone
4 Intuition


SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
4 Stifle
2 Wasteland
3 Krosan Grip
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale

Is this doable at all or do it simply suck? I might need some more tutor targets for Trinket Mage MD. Overall, this combo revolves (as you all know) servant + grindstone. Mongrel and Goyf beats and holds back attacks until I get Grindstone or Life From the Loam into play. I play 4 so I can dredge consistently from each loam engine, while I finally pop Academy Ruins into the yard, play loam returning 3 lands, 1 wasteland, 1 ruins and 1 tranquil thicket. I then play ruins, put artifact on top, cycle thicket, play artifact combo piece and wait until next turn or - if you already have it in play - win on the spot. This is a strange, untested hybrid of aggro-control and control-combo. Is this list shit or is it playable?

-willoe

[MattH]

The only question is, is it better than the storm combo decks that do the same, or Belcher which costs one more mana, but only requires one card?

Except you could do this while not whoring your manabase out to the kill...it's worth trying out!

[vanele]

Am i reading this correctly? Combo running into Gaea's blessing = draw?
Thats quite possibly the easiest hate i have ever seen but could be awesome if you win the first game, and pull it on yourself.
Personally i agree with Hi-val a quick as possible combo looks like where i would want to bring this.

[Michael Keller]

Am i reading this correctly? Combo running into Gaea's blessing = draw?
Thats quite possibly the easiest hate i have ever seen but could be awesome if you win the first game, and pull it on yourself.
Personally i agree with Hi-val a quick as possible combo looks like where i would want to bring this.

Or you can run Stifle, that kind of helps.

[Clark Kant]

If you guys want to try this combo in a blue deck with a white splash for Enlightened Tutor, Dreadstill/Enter the Fist seems to be the perfect fit.

If this combo doesn't resolve, you can still beat face with a 12/12 trampler.

[Michael Keller]

That seems to be the general consensus. If this combo sees regular play, Gaea's Blessing should end up making a moderate comeback. That's where Stifle could also come up big.

[Clark Kant]

A solid card that might be worth looking into if you go the Dreadbind route is Artificer's Intuition.

I really don't expect this combo to see regular play competitively in more than maybe random deck or so...

The main problem with this combo is that the best combos that see play in legacy are the ones where both combo pieces or at the very least, one of the combo pieces is very useful on their own.

Lets look at the other two card combos that make the cut in legacy....

Swans + Chain of Plasma - Swans is a very solid 4/3 flyer on it's own that turns your own Bolts into Ancestral Recalls. Chain of Plasma is a solid burn spell on it's own that can kill Confidants, Lackeys and what not.

Counterbalance + Top - Top is very solid in any deck with fetchlands, with or without CB. CB is very solid even without Top since all the decks that run this combo run Brainstorm as well. And even without Brainstorm, CB randomly counters spells.

Dreadnought + Stifle/Trickbind - Stifle/Trickbind are fantastic by themselves, acting as Sinkholes against any deck with fetchlands, and shutting down storm based combo, seals of primordium, and all sorts of random crap. Dreadnought is useless if you have only one copy and no stifle/bind on it's own. It can also be tutored for with Trinket Mages, or recurred with Academy Ruins both of which are very useful in the format so you can always use that to get the card in multiples.

Compared to the three combos ago, this combo just seems weak.

Grindstone is completely worthless by itself. Servant is just 1/3 blocker (worthless unless you are facing goblins), and decent if you run other cards synergic with it (Persecute etc) but even then is no where near as strong as Swan, Chain, Stifle, Trinket Mage, Top or CB by itself.

[Jaiminho]

A solid card that might be worth looking into if you go the Dreadbind route is Artificer's Intuition.

The main problem with this combo is that the best combos that see play in this format are the ones where both combo pieces or at the very least, one of the combo pieces is very useful on their own.

Lets look at the other two card combos that make the cut in legacy....

Swans + Chain of Plasma - Swans is a very solid 4/3 flyer on it's own that turns your own Bolts into Ancestral Recalls. Chain of Plasma is a solid burn spell on it's own that can kill Confidants, Lackeys and what not.

Counterbalance + Top - Top is very solid in any deck with fetchlands, with or without CB. CB is very solid even without Top since all the decks that run this combo run Brainstorm as well. And even without Brainstorm, CB randomly counters spells.

Dreadnought + Stifle/Trickbind - Stifle/Trickbind are fantastic by themselves, acting as Sinkholes against any deck with fetchlands, and shutting down storm based combo, seals of primordium, and all sorts of random crap. Dreadnought is useless on it's own but it can be tutored for with Trinket Mages, or recurred with Academy Ruins both of which are very useful in the format. So you can easily get away with running less than 4 Dreadnought if you wish.

By comparison, Grindstone is completely worthless by itself. Servant can be functional as a 1/3 blocker, and decent if you run other cards synergic with it (Persecute etc) but even then is no where near as strong as Swan, Chain, Stifle, Trinket Mage, Top or CB by itself.

First of all, a Countertop is nowhere in the same category of "combo" than Grindstone+Servant. It helps to control the game, it doesn't make you win the game. If we were to call every synergistic two card interactions combos, we'd have to say Brainstorm+Fetchlands is one also.

Swans+Chain is yet to see play. As far as I know, People are still assembling shells for it and no one could have taken it to a competitive metagame, since it isn't legal yet. I don't see how you can say it has already made de cut.

Also, Trickbind isn't good by itself and Stifle may be dead against enough decks. There is no other single deck in which Trickbind could be played aside from those with Dreadnoughts. Of course it can be useful and worth casting sometimes, but so can be Terror.

Finally, take a look at Breakfast. None of their combo pieces are useful by themselves, but it did see a good amount of play.

[Clark Kant]

I'm not saying that the combo isn't viable. Just that it doesn't seem quite as good as the other combos in the format.

Breakfast stopped being played for the same reason you described, that it was just better to play good cards like Goyf rather than cards that do nothing on their own.

The other problem with this combo is that the best artifact tutor (Trinket Mage) can tutor for only one of the combo pieces.

I was thinking that this combo could fit into a MBC deck as so that you can use Beseech which tutors for both combo pieces, and Persecute which works well with Servant.

But then, you're probably a lot better off playing the Staff of Domination + Magus of the Coffers combo since both cards actually work very well in the deck by themselves.

So blue is probably the best fit with a splash for E. Tutor, but arriving at a build that is actually superior in some way to regular old Dreadstill, Landstill etc might be a challenge.

[revenge_inc]

A solid card that might be worth looking into if you go the Dreadbind route is Artificer's Intuition.

Agreed

stuff

arguments against stuff
I agree with Jaiminho.

more stuff
I don't like the idea of this combo in MBC. I think mono :u: or :wu: works better. In this case it is better to be reactive to hate (Counterspell) rather than proactive (Thoughtseize).

[vanele]

The other problem with this combo is that the best artifact tutor (Trinket Mage) can tutor for only one of the combo pieces.


Fabricate hits the same cost, albeit it doesn't chump goyf for a turn but can grab either or.

[Clark Kant]

Wow, Fabricate is a great find, the artifact goes into your hand unlike Enlightened Tutor too.

Yes, it doesn't come with a 2/2 body, but I think being able to tutor for either combo piece might be worth the trade off.

So perhaps...

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Fabricate
3 Servant
3 Millstone

Now the question is, should the deck also play...

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Vision Charm/Stifle/Trickbind
Sensei's Divining Top
Counterbalance
Standstill
One Ofs: EE, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt
Mishra's Factory
Academy Ruins
Wasteland
Swords to Plowshares/Oblivion Ring

Vision Charm is especially impressive because not only does it combo with Phyrexian Dreadnought, but when you have only one of your combo pieces in play, you can phase it out in reponse to a Naturalize or Oblivion Ring to protect the artifact until you can cast the second combo piece next turn.

This is of course on top of the autoincludes

Fetchlands + Duals + Basics
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze

We certainly have our work cut out for us.

[vanele]

What about something like the Faerie stompy shell:

// Lands
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
9 [OD] Island (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [CHK] Painter's servant
4 [R] Serendib Efreet
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Grindstone
4 [MR] Fabricate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

That way you can beat or assemble combo, whichever way the deck feels liek going.

[Nihil Credo]

Am i reading this correctly? Combo running into Gaea's blessing = draw?
Nope; Gaea's Blessing has a triggered ability. After Grindstone's ability has milled all your library (including Blessing) into the graveyard, and only then, will Blessing's ability go on the stack and resolve, shuffling your graveyard back in your library.

So Blessing disrupts this combo, but does not cause a draw.

[Clark Kant]

I would definately play Fabricate over Trinket Mage for this combo, esp in a mono blue deck that can't support Enlightened Tutor like Faeirie Stompy. Being able to tutor for either half of the combo is so much more important than a vanilla 2/2 body. And running playsets of both Fabricate and Mage isn't a good idea imo as that takes up a lot of slots and both cards are fairly high casting cost. There are just so many solid cards in blue to waste 8 slots on 3cc tutors.

I dont' think Fairie Stompy is the right fit for this combo though.

Combo decks need to play Brainstorm on top of the tutoring effects if they hope to be consistent at all. And F. Stompy doesn't run Brainstorm right now. You would have to cut Chalice of the Void out completely to support both Grindstone and Brainstorm. And at that point, you might as well play Dreadnought and Stifle as well to give you one other game winning combo.

If you do want to run this in F. Stompy and would cut Chalice to do so, you should absolutely run six fetchlands and four brainstorm in the build.

Here is a sample build...

Combo Fairies

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [OD] Island
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [CK] Painter's Servant
4 [RV] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RV] Serendib Efreet
4 [P2] Sea Drake
2 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [6E] Brainstorm
4 [DS] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Fabricate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Grindstone
2 [TS] Vision Charm

Vision Charm serves double duty in not only comboing with Dreadnought but also protecting your other artifacts by phasing them out in response to removal. That's why I opted to run it over Trickbind.

Just for fun, I decided to throw in both the Dreadnought combo and the Servant's Stone combo. If you're playing combo, why not go all out and include as many synergic combos as possible. The deck has so many different options as to how to play out any hand that it should have no problem simultanously confusing both yourself and your opponent.

It could also work in Fairie Stompy's sideboard to get around all the creature hate opponents bring in, and fetchlands combined with a random Taiga, Engineered Explosives and tutoring gives you one more out against Goyf.

But at the end of the day, I think the best route for this combo is in a Uw controllish shell running...

Fetchlands + Duals + Basics
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
X Spell Snare
X Daze

4 Enlightened Tutor
X Fabricate
X Servant
X Millstone

The main thing we need to figure out right now is which of the below cards to include in the deck...

Sensei's Divining Top
Counterbalance
Standstill
One Ofs: EE, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt
Mishra's Factory
Academy Ruins
Wasteland
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Vision Charm/Stifle/Trickbind
Swords to Plowshares/Oblivion Ring

If you opt to also run Dreadnought, Vision Charm is especially impressive because not only does it combo with Phyrexian Dreadnought, but when you have only one of your combo pieces in play, you can phase it out in reponse to a Naturalize or Oblivion Ring to protect the artifact until you can cast the second combo piece next turn.

[smoky squirrel]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread unfortunately, but I wanted to add my two cents.

Painter's Servant is a really good utility creature, for all those who things he is useless without the combo:
-Misdirection
-Force of Will
-BEB/Hydroblast

Think about it, I think if you run 8 of the above in some combination maindeck, protecting the combo got a lot better.

[MMD]

Why not try to abuse the Painter for its own protection and use ALL blasts available. 50% of the blast are strong anyway as most of the metagame either play red or blue spells.

You can also use ponder/brainstorm to manipulate your library to find only the proper blast until you resolve of or your 8 painter servants (plus ponder/brainstorm) in your deck.

As soon as the Servant enters the game you can be the control deck for one turn. As soon as you untap you should be able to resolve the second combo part and either wait another turn or combo out immeditately depending on the matchup/situation. 20 counters and/or 16 instant "destroy target permanent" spells for one mana should be sufficient to protect your combo.

I don´t know if you will improve the deck when you "waste" slots to cards like CB/SDT/Trinket Mage/Fabricate...

This is I would try first:

"The Paint Shop" by MMD
4 Painter´s Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

You should be able to combo out on turn 4 constantly.

Turn 1: Enlightend Tutor/Ponder
Turn 2: Brainstorm/Grindstone/Ponder/Enlightend Tutor
Turn 3: Painter`s Servant/1-2 Blast
Turn 4: Activate Grinstone/1-2 Blast

You can certainly combo out on Turn 3 (even Turn 2) but this is neither realistic nor safe.

I am not 100% sure if the 8 Blue Blasts are really good enough and needs to be tested but I always wanted to build a deck around them and the Servant really abuses them best. Perhaps a combination of Orim´s Chant/Thoughtseize/Daze will stabilize/improve the deck. But I will definitely try the 16 Blast version first.

[Maveric78f]

You may want to play Flash Flood instead of splashing R and being able to counterspell/destroy only a part of spells.

Anyway, this approach looks bad because you are too much dependent on having Painter into play.

[Michael Keller]

Vision Charm is especially impressive because not only does it combo with Phyrexian Dreadnought, but when you have only one of your combo pieces in play, you can phase it out in reponse to a Naturalize or Oblivion Ring to protect the artifact until you can cast the second combo piece next turn.

Vision Charm could also be hilarious if you Anarchy and phase Dreadnought out.

[MMD]

I don´t think that it will be a big issue to find/resolve/protect the Painter with my list. As soon as you have a Painter in play you can switch to control mode until you find one Grindstone.

I need to test if the eight blue blasts need to be substituted by any combination of Orim´s Chant/Spell Snare/Daze/Counterbalance+Top (or even Duress/Thoughtseize).

I don´t see a problem to "splash" red as the average CC is 1, so Wastelands don´t hurt that much. Also my Meta is full of Landstill and Threshold were red blasts really shine.

I personally don´t think that Flash Flood is superior to any Blast as it does not help to keep the Painter in play nor to counter other non-permanent threads. In the same way cards like Guttural Response and Active Volcano are less attractive for me as well.

I don´t think it is unlikely to have a Painter in you hand on turn 2-3:
1-4 out of 60 in your opening hand: 40% (Painter)
1-8 out of 60 in your opening hand: 65% (Painter/Enlightened)
1-16 out of 60 in your opening hand: 90% (Painter/Enlightened/BS/Ponder)

If you also add the Brainstorm(Ponder)/Fetchland "combo" and 1-3 draw phases (as you don´t want to cast the painter before turn 2-3) your chances of having a painter on turn 3-4 isn´t that bad.

[Cire]

I have a question: let's say they have a couple of gaea's blessing in their deck, and you do the painter combo on them (not knowing they have the blessings and thus not holding stifle in your hand to counter the blessing effect)...would this be a tie if you continue doing the ability? i mean if some one accuses you of wasting time because the grindstone is a may ability, can't you just say your going to keep grinding till the blessing is one of the last 2 cards?

[Maveric78f]

It works like this:
All the library goes to the yard as an effect of the grindstone.
The trigger of the gaea's blessing(s) is(are) put on the stack.
You'd better stifle, make your opponent draw or do something or your combo is screwed up. My solution to that is to activate tormod crypt in resp.
The yard is shuffled into the library.

[Jaiminho]

If you go to Dreadnought as a plan B, you have Stifles maindeck. These should be enough to stop any Gaea's Blessings or Feldon's Cane (wtf!) or whatever.

[Willoe]

Did anyone try anything out other than a dreadstill shell?

I think it could do in survival or something. Trinket Mage to fetch grindstone and everything else to fetch Servant. And it's UG, which color you all love. Think FoW, Brainstorm, Intuition, Tradewind Rider etc. etc. etc.

[Happy Gilmore]

If you go to Dreadnought as a plan B, you have Stifles maindeck. These should be enough to stop any Gaea's Blessings or Feldon's Cane (wtf!) or whatever.


Because of how Grindstone works, one of Crypt maindeck answers both Cane and any number of blessings.

The repeating process is all one resolution, so if you have crypt in play you can respond to all of the blessing triggers at once with one activation.

[Cavius The Great]

If you go to Dreadnought as a plan B, you have Stifles maindeck. These should be enough to stop any Gaea's Blessings or Feldon's Cane (wtf!) or whatever.

Extract or Jester's Cap can get rid of Blessing if you're that concerned about it. I don't have a doubt in my mind that Jester's Cap deserves atleast a couple SB slots.

[Gambit]

This is a different route: I posted in the Stax thread as well, but am interested in everyone's thoughts:
Bare with me for a minute; this may be terrible and I haven't done any testing yet. But a stax shell with a combo win may be good.
This combines the broken openings of stax with the painters grindstone combo. I pulled the chalices as they are quite dis-synergistic with the e-tutors and grindstones. This also, allows e-tutors which can in fact find you important lock pieces. The obvious problem being painter and grindstone being bad on there own. Thoughts?

4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
8 Plains

[Happy Gilmore]

Did anyone try anything out other than a dreadstill shell?

I think it could do in survival or something. Trinket Mage to fetch grindstone and everything else to fetch Servant. And it's UG, which color you all love. Think FoW, Brainstorm, Intuition, Tradewind Rider etc. etc. etc.

Could be good, but you would probably still use CB in the deck along side Survival.

To answer the Blessing/staff questions: One crypt answers both of them. For the reason I stated earlier.

[Jaiminho]

Because of how Grindstone works, one of Crypt maindeck answers both Cane and any number of blessings.

The repeating process is all one resolution, so if you have crypt in play you can respond to all of the blessing triggers at once with one activation.

Yes, there are lots and lots of different answers to grave shuffling. I'm just saying that having them maindecked leaves more sideboard slots for answers to real issues this deck would have. Yeah, I know... Tormod may already fit in some slots, since it can be fetched by Trinket Mage.

[URABAHN]

Nope; Gaea's Blessing has a triggered ability. After Grindstone's ability has milled all your library (including Blessing) into the graveyard, and only then, will Blessing's ability go on the stack and resolve, shuffling your graveyard back in your library.

So Blessing disrupts this combo, but does not cause a draw.

In response to the Blessing trigger, activate Tormod's Crypt.

[whienot]

Could be good, but you would probably still use CB in the deck along side Survival.


Survival looks good. With Trinket Mage you can tutor up all the pieces.

Gifts also works, though it's probably a little slow.

[vanele]

Absolute Law > Painter's servant
Painter can at no point be touched by kill spells then all you need to worry about is counter.

[puddn]

what about llawan + painter's servant to wait the kill grindstone?

[georgjorge]

But at the end of the day, I think the best route for this combo is in a Uw controllish shell running...

Fetchlands + Duals + Basics
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
X Spell Snare
X Daze

4 Enlightened Tutor
X Fabricate
X Servant
X Millstone

The main thing we need to figure out right now is which of the below cards to include in the deck...

Sensei's Divining Top
Counterbalance
Standstill
One Ofs: EE, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt
Mishra's Factory
Academy Ruins
Wasteland
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Vision Charm/Stifle/Trickbind
Swords to Plowshares/Oblivion Ring


I second the Uw control shell route...I've done some testing and came to some conclusions:

CBalance + Top is pretty much a given - against various decks (Thresh, Homebrew, Burn, combo etc) you are better off tutoring for CBalance instead of a combo piece. But against those matchup where CBalance usually sucks (Stax, Rock variants) you can go for the combo, so you can maximize your tutoring power and essentially play two different combos, each of which are useful against different decks.

The red splash is very powerful, I'm currently running seven Blasts maindeck. Basically, if they want to disrupt the combo with counters OR removal, Blast will always be useful (plus, every second deck seems to run blue). It only isn't good when you're dealing with discard...so maybe go down to five or six. A green splash for Reap would also look very attractive, but it does nothing if they counter your Painter (for the same reason, running 16 Blasts seems not so hot, because the Blue Blasts can't force it through counterspells).

Fabricate is pretty much worse than Intuition, and I'm not sure either one is worth running unless you play more than five two-mana-lands.

I think both Snare and Daze don't belong here, the first one is just not needed that much, the second one because a controllish deck can't use Daze very well.

Chalice@1 kills the deck if you don't manage to get out your Grindstone before it, since you can't even tutor for an answer then. This makes a case for expensive tutors (Intuition), or at least some Serenities/Explosives in the side.

Meddling Mage probably belongs in the sideboard, naming Grip, Extirpate, or just Swords to Plowshares.

[revenge_inc]

Absolute Law > Painter's servant
Painter can at no point be touched by kill spells then all you need to worry about is counter.
I don't get why you would play Absolute Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=8437). Please elaborate.


Extract or Jester's Cap can get rid of Blessing if you're that concerned about it. I don't have a doubt in my mind that Jester's Cap deserves atleast a couple SB slots.

The problem is Gaea's Blessing (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=108789). Remember that thread about why people hate you? I don't think people hate you but many don't take you seriously as a deck designer. Ever think it has something to do with the fact that you're wasting time advocating Jester's Cap (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=84595), an artifact that cost :4: to play and :2: to activate, when in fact good ol' Tormod's Crypt (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=109716) will do the job for :0:? Just something to think about.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't get why you would play Absolute Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=8437). Please elaborateYou set Painter to red and play Absolute Law to give it protection from everything.

[revenge_inc]

You set Painter to red and play Absolute Law to give it protection from everything.
But why would you want to do this when a Counterspell will suffice (and protects from a broader range of threats)? When you're racing to combo off why not the cheaper Benevolent Bodyguard (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=36118).

[Cavius The Great]

I don't get why you would play Absolute Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=8437). Please elaborate.



The problem is Gaea's Blessing (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=108789). Remember that thread about why people hate you? I don't think people hate you but many don't take you seriously as a deck designer. Ever think it has something to do with the fact that you're wasting time advocating Jester's Cap (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=84595), an artifact that cost :4: to play and :2: to activate, when in fact good ol' Tormod's Crypt (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=109716) will do the job for :0:? Just something to think about.

Until you Top8 in a tournament with your own creation, you really can't tell me anything.

And I totally overlooked Tormod's Crypt, my bad.

[Isamaru]

Sample UG Painter Survival

20 Lands, including Academy Ruins

4 Birds of Paradise
X Llanowar Elves
X Coiling Oracle / Wall of Roots
X Krosan Tusker

4 Survival of the Fittest
(1 Squee, Goblin Nabob)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
3 Grinestone

4 Tarmogoyf (only as blocker)
4 Eternal Witness
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Mulldrifter / Ohran Viper

4 Primal Command/Temporal Spring / Ponder/Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Pithing Needle
1+ Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
X Blue Elemental Blast
X Hydroblast

This list could also be merged with any number of other ideas, from Gifts Ungiven or Intuition, to the generic Counterbalance crap.

[revenge_inc]

And I totally overlooked Tormod's Crypt, my bad.
WTF? It was mentioned several times in the thread! This means that either you post in a thread without reading or you have serious short-term memory loss.
Before your post there was:


The main thing we need to figure out right now is which of the below cards to include in the deck...
One Ofs: EE, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt



My solution to that is to activate tormod crypt in resp.

Because of how Grindstone works, one of Crypt maindeck answers both Cane and any number of blessings.

The repeating process is all one resolution, so if you have crypt in play you can respond to all of the blessing triggers at once with one activation.


Until you Top8 in a tournament with your own creation, you really can't tell me anything.
Just because you top 8 once (or even several times) doesn't mean you stop learning from others. I was brutally honest. That is all.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

But why would you want to do this when a Counterspell will suffice?I'm not defending it, just explaining it.

It seems to fall under the danger of cool things.

[vanele]

I was just pointing it out really, but yeah your probably right about the dangers of cool things.

[Happy Gilmore]

Absolute law is still a useful consideration, especially as a 1 of post board to fetch with tutor.

Keep in mind it also shuts off the Swan combo.

Keep up the good ideas guys.

[Isamaru]

Keep in mind it also shuts off the Swan combo.

This is ridiculously hot, and thank you for pointing that out.

[revenge_inc]

Rule of law is still a useful consideration, especially as a 1 of post board to fetch with tutor.

Keep in mind it also shuts off the Swan combo.

Keep up the good ideas guys.

I don't want to assume anything but you could be confusing Absolute Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=8437) with Rule of Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=136291).

[Isamaru]

It gives Swan protection from red.

Anyway, people are finally realizing how good Enlightened Tutor is. Oblivion Ring and Sun and Moon Wheel are only more reasons...

[Michael Keller]

Just as a random side-note:

The price on Painter's Servant is ridiculously unstable. I bought a foil set for $42.00 on E-Bay, but you can buy a plain set of four for 5 bucks. Pretty strange.

[goobafish]

I already bought 48 of them.

[Isamaru]

This isn't Tarmogoyf, people.

[revenge_inc]

I will get my playset (as well as find myself some Grindstones). However I do not think it will have much of an impact on Standard (probably a small one Extended).
This card is at about $1.50 now and I doubt it will go above $5.

[Clark Kant]

Is Grindstone legal in extended?

I don't think it is.

Without this combo, it's just a card that casuals play to do neat tricks with cards like absolute law imo.

And legacy is a fast enough format that this combo is pretty casual too imho, tier two at best.

It's going to be at best a $2-3 rare, probably lower, quote me on it.

[Michael Keller]

This isn't Tarmogoyf, people.
Again, the initial purchasing price on this card varies from very high to very low. It won't go beyond 5 to 6 dollars a card. But I got a set of foils for a moderate price.

And why the hell would someone buy 48 of them? Unless you're a shop owner I see no reason to pick up that many. That's just ludicrous.

[goobafish]

At less than 5 dollars a set shipped, it isn't a big risk. It will be a popular casual card at worst. Moving cards isn't a problem for me.

[Isamaru]

You're a mover and a shaker.

So did anyone see that UG sample I posted?

[Clark Kant]

Who here has the guts to try out that F. Stompy build I put together.

Combo Fairies

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [OD] Island
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [CK] Painter's Servant
4 [RV] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RV] Serendib Efreet
4 [P2] Sea Drake
3 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [6E] Brainstorm
4 [DS] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Grindstone
3 [MR] Intuition/Fabricate
2 [TS] Vision Charm

Seriously, I dare you. :eek: Frankly, I'm terrified just thinking about it.

[revenge_inc]

Who here has the guts to try out that F. Stompy build I put together. :eek:
In the FS thread Yamaelle made his case for the exclusion of combo in FS. I think a combo can be added to the deck but not 2. Abandon the dreadnought plan and just stick with the Servant's Stone plan (possibly sideboard). (note: I do not take Yamaelle's criticism lightly, he has had perhaps the greatest tournament success with FS to date).

[Clark Kant]

If you read what I posted, it should be clear that this was never meant to replace F. Stompy. It was built as a fun diversion from it.

No if you go the combo route with F. Stompy, you SHOULD play both combos.

By going the combo route, you have to cut yourself off from Chalice of the Void and maindeck Brainstorm.

At that point, you might as well maximize how badly you can abuse Trinket Mage to fetch 1cc combo pieces.

[revenge_inc]

this was never meant to replace F. Stompy. It was built as a fun diversion from it.
I could see the latest decklist you posted in this thread was not entirely serious but I was looking at it (and the combo(s)) from a competive standpoint.

[Clark Kant]

Few combo deck start out competitive ie. tier one out of the gate. I haven't yet seen a build that I think would be "competitive" You have to try a lot of different approaches before arriving at the best one.

Now, while I readily admit that the build I posted isn't a tier one deck like F. Stompy is, I don't think it's half bad either. It can do a lot of broken things in alot of broken ways very early. It can attack your opponents from multiple directions and gives you a lot of flexibility. I think the deck with a little adjustment could easily be tier two.

So yes, I do think it's worth trying.

And frankly, I don't think this combo will ever rise beyond a tier two status at best anyways. You can quote me on that.

[dahcmai]

It's too bad Jeska has such a large target on her head, she's a walking Pyroblast. I really like that card, but I don't think I've ever got her to stay alive long enough to get rid of summoning sickness even once in any format.


As for the FS build, it makes me sad I sold off my Sea Drakes while they were hot.

[Soulles]

Because of how Grindstone works, one of Crypt maindeck answers both Cane and any number of blessings.

The repeating process is all one resolution, so if you have crypt in play you can respond to all of the blessing triggers at once with one activation.

How is it an all in one resolution?

If i read grindstone, it says repeat the process if the 2 cards share color. So doesn't there needs to be some sort of SBE check before it triggers again?

I mean it has to check every 2 cards for color right?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

No, the entire library would be milled in one resolution. There would be no opportunity for spells or abilities until two cards don't share a colour.

[Willoe]

Isamaru! I read your decklist, and it's pretty good looking! I was about to post in the MTGS forum, but somehow my 'net crashed. But it works now (of course, else I couldn't post, just sp you know:tongue: and I saved the reply from yesterday. I post a copy of it, so here goes:

(The text in the quote box is the text that you also can find as a reply on MTGS. I want to keep the discussion up at as many sites as possible, as I really see potential in this combo.)


What to drop? At first, I'd drop 1 Grindstone. The card is dead without the servant and vice versa. Cut 1 of each and add an Engineered Explosives so you have an even greater game against combo. Against Ichorid, this deck seriously loses. He actually gets an advantage from your mill as he can replace the draws with dredging effects. I think a Dreadnought would do in this deck. My current test version is:


4 Trinket Mage
2 Painter's Servant
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

2 Grindstone

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Counterbalance

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Academy Ruins

SB:
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void

Due to the fact it's monoblue, it's a little weak at tutoring up the combo. I dropped Enlightened Tutor because it only really finds one thing: The Servant. The deck could also go UG like this:


3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grindstone

4 Living Wish
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Island

SB:
1 Nimble Mongoose
1 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trygon Predator
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Æther Spellbomb
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Krosan Grip

I like the Uw build the most. It's the most consistent. The UG just seem like a spacy version of NQG.

What do you think of the two builds?

[puddn]

i like the second version with green for tarmo and living wish
why not Llawan, Cephalid Empress in SB for living wish? it seems be good to lock

[Isamaru]

haha Llawan is where the deck starts getting fun :smile: As long as you're playing Survival or Living Wish, she's worth including 1x.

Thanks, willoe. I like your first list better than the second one because the second one has too few ways to assemble the combo or Wish for a bomb, but I think you should reconsider E.T. in the first one... it gets so incredibly much.

I will post a GWu list later tonight.

[Willoe]

The only problem with this deck that it has to include so many different effects to make room for extra pieces. That makes the various decktypes rather narrow.

Isamaru: I love that UGw is really possible! Isamaru, I'm looking forward to see the decklist!

The only two concerns I have by making >2 lists without too much countermagic is The Moon and the Moonman. I just picked up Dragon Stompy and I love to see my opponents whine because of that bloody moon. But on the other hand, losing the game because of 1 enchantment that doesn't even deals damage is just plain frustrating.

[TheKingslayer]

I would like to suggest that I believe a more black build would be ideal for protection, as krosan grip and shattering spree have made it somewhat difficult to protect artifacts with counters.

Perhaps I'll put together a list later, or you can all shoot the idea down.

some notable cards may be:
unmask
or
(kind of expensive but cool to think about an early one of these).....

Persecute :)

[Michael Keller]

Persecute is just fine. In fact, it works well by itself.

[Happy Gilmore]

I would like to suggest that I believe a more black build would be ideal for protection, as krosan grip and shattering spree have made it somewhat difficult to protect artifacts with counters.

Perhaps I'll put together a list later, or you can all shoot the idea down.

some notable cards may be:
unmask
or
(kind of expensive but cool to think about an early one of these).....

Persecute :)

Let me go ahead and flex my deck building muscles...

4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Enligtened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jitte
2 Grindstone

4 Scrublands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamps


If your Going that rout I would rather just play affinity. But in all likely hood, CB protection is going to be the best for the deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I would like to suggest that I believe a more black build would be ideal for protection, as krosan grip and shattering spree have made it somewhat difficult to protect artifacts with counters.

You could always try sticking it in a Death Clock (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8633) shell. That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the combo.

[Clark Kant]

I really like the idea of a b/w suicide build of the deck with enligtened tutor. Dark Ritual and Discard goes great into any combo deck but especially into this combo.

I definately think such a build should play 4 Tombstalker and probably Beseech the Queen as well.

Tombstalker in my opinion should go into every black deck playing discard and fetchlands. It wins so many games all by itself on the back of your discard. Here you can even use Grindstone to feed your yard for it if you get desperate.

Without blue, I'm not sure enlightened tutor isn't enough tutoring for the combo. Adding Beseech to the build makes it that much more consistent.

Here is a quick thrown together build...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress/Hymn to Tourach
3 Grindstone
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tainted Pact/Beseech the Queen

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

As nice as Persecute is with a Servant on the board. It can be weak without a Servant since so many decks run upwards of three colors. And it's pretty mana intensive. I just felt Duress/Hymn was generally more disruptive.

It was important to me that the deck retained the traditional brokeness of Suicide Black. The combo is there as a backup plan, but one that you often draw into and resolve while your opponents are busy worrying about your other threats.

I'm not sure what to use as the two of tutor. Beseech is perfect but it costs a lot of mana.

Tainted Pact has the bonus of being cheaper and being an instant.

So at the end of your opponents turn, you can cast Tainted Pact, and try to tutor into either Enlightened Tutor or your second combo piece. Enlightened Tutor is an instant as well so you could cast it immediatley after too, and thus draw the card during the start of your turn. And if you have neither combo piece in hand, Pact at the end of your opponent's turn into a Thoughtseize, or more beats is a solid play as well.

[electrolyze]

dude, you just posted alomst the same list in 4 different topics on the forum, dont you think its a little too idiot.

about the list, its clearly you used somewhat of an eva green shel but that shell is made for tempo so you dont need such as a combo to win the game. just kick the hell out of your opponent by beating with a t3 stalker or something. maybe you could fit it in a very controllish deadguy build WITH confidant but not in a shell like this one.

[Isamaru]

Maybe we should just start a Clark Kant forum so that we can consolidate the musings?

[Clark Kant]

I've been suggesting that same thing (my very own forum for all my decklists) for years now :wink:

The plan IS to beat the crap out of your opponent. The combo is the back up plan should that original plan fail.

Or another way to look at it, is this is a combo deck, but with an extremely strong aggro backup to distract your opponent or win through a Stifle/Gaea's Blessing.

The fact is, this deck can support both the combo and aggro routes very well. It has more than enough tools that it can consistently go with either goal in mind.

That kind of flexibility is hard to come by and in my opinion undervalued.

The one thing I will change with the list, is that I will add a singleton Lurebound Scarecrow (or Phyrexian Warbeast or Sarcomancy or Bitterblossom or Engineered Explosives or Jitte) to the list to grab with Enlightened Tutor in a pinch.

This is because Lurebound Scarecrow is a very strong and solid beater in this deck. And it can be tutored up with Enlightened Tutor should the combo route fail you thanks to an Extripate or something. Thus, the E. Tutors never become dead cards.

I didn't want to use the deadguy shell because the deadguy shell is slow, sucky and largely defunct imho.

[Barook]

Aside from the Grindstone, what else color-specific cards become a beating with Painter in play?

So far, I only found Compost and it's rather meh without the Painter.

[dahcmai]

Just Reap, I guess you could re-build a weird version of Solidarity.

To be honest after reading all of this it just starts seeming like more of a cute combo than anything.

[meanee]

Even though I think this combo is kind of casual, and I don't really think it will have a great impact, I think it is a very fun combo. The servant has such a tremendous effect on the game and for only 2 mana!

The pros of this combo - and the reason why I have made myself a list, and have gotten myself the servants - are of course that it is a 2-card combo, that requires only 6 mana! It is actually kind of insane if you think of it that way. Problem being of course that it is quite easy to disrupt. Therefore I have made a list with a lot of disruption in it. It is lots of fun to play, but as I started out saying: I don't think it will go and warp the whole format...

Anyways, my list:

4 painter's servant
4 grindstone

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 lim-duls vault
4 dark confidant

4 force of will
4 daze
3 pact of negation
4 duress

4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 underground sea
4 ancient tomb
4 polluted delta
2 island

Sideboard would consist of something along the lines of 3 rushing river/wipe away, 4 tormod's crypt, thoughtseize and another win-condition, maybe tombstalker...

I don't know wether I want the dark confidants or not - one could remove them, and put in som plunge into darkness, spoils of the vault or meditate/thirst for knowledge or something else...

Anyway, I really like the deck, and it is a ton of fun to play...

- meanee

[Cire]

Don't know if some one offered this up yet, but how about Transmute Artifact?

Play some blue version of STAX and then whip out transmute artifact and boom...

based on the Flame Vault Stasis Stax deck on SCG

- da Vinci Stax

Combo
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

Artifacts
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Enchantments
4 Propaganda
4 Stasis

Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Mountain

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 City Of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Seat of Synod

[Isamaru]

Stasis? It must be good!

What do we need mountains for? Cuz baby there ain't no mountain high enough, ain't no island wide enough...

[emidln]

FVSS was good because Time Vault was good in Stax. That it could win on turn 2 by dealing infinite damage was more than a threat than actuality. Sure, it could do that, but it could just as easily set up Smokestack + Time Vault (sometimes mixed with a Stasis, Propaganda, or Trinisphere) and refuse to play magic until you decked. Painter/Grindstone has no similar synergies. Even Flame Fusillade was a formidable removal spell in a deck composed of 54 permanents that thrived on playing out its permanents.

[Cire]

emidln i see your point on FVSS and of course i trust your opinion on anything with Stax in the name, but i think you should also see the potential of abuse of the painter combo in stax. Is an entirely artifact colored combo, and thus can be fitted into decks that power out artifacts (stax)

for example here are the SCG vintage forums: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=309309&start=50

some of the lists that they have been developing are lists that include Pyroblast and REB, which are good on there own since they can protect the combo (countering FOW). Also there lists have been including old Stax elements like welder (also as one user pointed out this cool trick "Activate Grindstone, in response weld Grindstone for Painter to win"), Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst. And with so many artifacts in the deck that cost 2 Mana Transmute artifact is Painter & grindstone 5-8 literally. I just think that out of any existing archetypes Stax would be the best fit for the deck since IMO any pure combo approach, no matter how much counters you'll put in would be inferior to Fetchland Tendrils.

[Gambit]

I just think that out of any existing archetypes Stax would be the best fit for the deck since IMO any pure combo approach, no matter how much counters you'll put in would be inferior to Fetchland Tendrils.

I tried it in 'geddon stax, see my list a page or 2 back, it was OK. The problem is that grindstone sucks on it's own and painter sucks on it's own. Other than that, the stax part of the deck was awsome.

[Clark Kant]

Don't know if some one offered this up yet, but how about Transmute Artifact?

Transmutate Artifact seems strong. But I would still run 4 Enlightened Tutor.

I don't think Stax is the best idea because theese cards don't help the stax strategy and Stax needs every card it plays to be a bomb to work.

Here is my latest musing...

UW Control

//Combo
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmutate Artifact
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

//Control
4 Force of Will
4 Powder Keg/Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics/Propaganda
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Draw
4 Brainstorm/Ancestral Visions
4 Spell Snare/Impulse/Counterspell

//Mana
4 Island/Chrome Mox
20 Land

What do you think?

It runs all the very best cards that make MUC good. Yet, it doesn't need to lock down the game like MUC does, just slow it down long enough that you can combo off.

[Cire]

I think the trick with this combo will be to run as little of the grindstone and painter as possible and still be consistent. Bare with my terrible math for a minute. Lets count Enlightened tutor and transmute artifact as painters & stones. Lets say our goal is to be able to combo off turn 3 consistently and also to assume that the deck will run 4 BStorms and at least some Ponders: that means well see around 12 cards from the deck so that means we need to run around 10 of the combo pieces, obviously were not going to run singleton of the win condition, so i propose

4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
- 18

as the combo search and draw base...

now we need to include some artifacts of 2cc and above for the Transmute artifact and other control elements:

Artifacts at first glance

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Veldalken Shackles
-10

Control at first glance

4 Force of will
2 Counterspell
2 Back to Basics
2 Propaganda
1 Impulse
-11

so so far i propose all the above with 21 lands as a potential starting point... of course i want to up the land count but i couldn't think of anything to cut at the moment. additionally i still believe the route of Pyro's and REB's and 4 painters with welders is another perfectly good valid direction for to go.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Mana Maze would be one way to protect the servant and it would make instants become orim's chants....woah im up too late...

[Clark Kant]

Cire, I agree with you for the most part except for a few things...

We need to base this off of MUC. MUC runs stuff like Powder Keg, Propaganda, B2B and countermagic and such to lock the game down completely.

While we can't and should try for that. If those cards are strong enough to lock the game down, they should be good enough to delay your opponent long enough for you to combo out.

So I say, let base the build around a standard build of MUC, but with 4 Enlightened Tutor (good for fetching MUC's control elements as well), 4 Transmute Artifact (ditto), and 4 total combo pieces, 2 of each like you suggested.

So here is what we can learn from MUC. MUC lists run 24-25 land. Since we play brainstorm and ponder, we can go below that number, but not too far below it. (Our win condition is mana intensive after all).

22 is absolute minimum IMO.

Why the random 1 of Impulse? Random 1 ofs don't work well. We should either cut if for the extra land. Or we should replace Ponder with it, and cut ponder for the extra land.

Sphere of Resistence is a really really crap card in this deck. I see absolutely no reason to run it. We don't play stax cards, we don't attack their mana, we are a combo deck for gods sake, we need to be able to play out our cards fast.

I think the strongest candidate to replace it is Powder Keg, but I'm open to suggestions.

I don't think Thorn of Ametyst works well either. It should be some other controlish artifact. At the very worst, we could cut it to run 2 Spell Snare, and 2 Phyrexian Warbeast or Phyrexian Ironfoot for early defense against aggro rushes.

So basically, here is my suggested decklist...

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder/Impulse

4 Powder Keg
2 Veldalken Shackles
2 Phyrexian Ironfoot

4 Force of will
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Back to Basics
2 Propaganda

22 Land (Including Snow Lands)

[Cire]

Im starting to agree with you in the department of stax artifacts, theyre not that good without the other stax parts, but in order to abuse transmute artifact to its fullest we need at least 10 2 mana artifacts or above. Why 10? first of all we need 5 to reliably get one every game after seeing 5 cards (and 10 to see 2), but the trouble is were forgetting that in all probability the opponent's will destroy, duress or grip one of our artifacts. so in my opinion the deck should have a base of

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder/Impulse

10 2cc+ artifacts
4 Force of will
6 Other Control Stuff
22 lands

so basically the same as your build so far the only thing left is to figure out what are the best artifacts and control elements for this deck.

[georgjorge]

I still don't get why you want to use Transmute Artifact over, say, Fabricate or Intuition. Transmute isn't really cheaper, since you need to cast the other artifact before it, and like you said, it is useless without drawing another artifact. You might argue that the other artifacts support the game plan of the deck anyway and are not dead, but this is a) not true for the artifacts in your list (the Spheres actually slow you down pretty bad), and b) if you have a card in play that disrupts your opponent, wouldn't you rather keep it on the board then sac it ? Seriously, Transmute would be decent if you used that 2 mana sunburst artifact that makes mana, or transmuted artifact lands into LED, but the plan of playing otherwise not so useful artifacts to play a bad card over a better one is strange.

[dahcmai]

I can see it now, the sideboard tech will be Barrin's Unmaking and Sygg, River Guide.lmao

[Michael Keller]

I still don't get why you want to use Transmute Artifact over, say, Fabricate or Intuition.

I think you're missing the bigger picture with the Transmute idea. Transmute Artifact is a game-breaking card, which, paired with other artifact acceleration and disruption can be devastating. Like Transmuting Su-Chi into a Sundering Titan is actually pretty good. It's ultra-lateral depending on what other cards you're playing. In that particular instance, you'd have to play around with an artifact-based build, which isn't that difficult to achieve.

And I'm not referring to Mono U(/w) Stax.

[Clark Kant]

He makes a good point though.

Intuition might be a better fit in a controllish build of the deck (which I think will prove to be the strongest approach), esp if you pair it with Accumilated Knowledge.

This way you don't have to devote so many cards to artifacts, and could play a full more blue to better support FoW, and play 4 Propaganda or a full 4 Back 2 Basics or 4 Thirst For Knowledge and such.

The fact is, all these cards have a casting cost 2U, which means such a build could support the 8 dual lands too which let you combo out for cheaper!

Something like this perhaps...

12 Land
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

//Combo
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

//Draw & Tutor
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Accumilated Knowledge
4 Intuition
4 Thirst for Knowledge

//Control
4 Force of Will
4 Propaganda
2 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Powder Keg

You get the picture...

The build would be faster. And it feels like you are only devoting six cards truly to the combo, as opposed to 8-12.

Hell you could throw in Sea Drake/Serendib Efreet in place of Thirst For Knowledge and Back to Basics for beats/defense if you want.

[Michael Keller]

He makes a good point though.

Intuition might be a better fit in a controllish build of the deck (which I think will prove to be the strongest approach), esp if you pair it with Accumilated Knowledge.

This way you don't have to devote so many cards to artifacts, and could play a full 4 Propaganda and a full 4 Back 2 Basics and 4 Fact or Fiction (though I think the Intuition/AK combo should take the place of FoF) and such.

True, but you also have to take into consideration that your putting yourself at risk by losing the other two cards you went to search with. Remember, this deck isn't like Aluren; You're not going to just drop these cards and win. You need to:

1.) Find them.
2.) Protect them.
3.) Resolve them.
4.) Protect them again (potentially).
5.) Activate one.

In order to do that, you need to create a surrounding cast of cards that will not only supplement the combo by searching and protecting it, you're going to need offense - or in essence an alternate win condition. Intuition could be good.

[Clark Kant]

Well, the idea of the build was to use Intuiton for this only when you are absolutely desperate.

Most of the time between E. Tutor and your pieces and all the draw, you will get your combo in place eventually. You just focus on maintaining control of the board till then.

Thus Intuition should 9 times out of 10 be used to grab Accumilated Knowledge and get you massive card advantage.

You should usually play your first Servant imo since it lets you pitch your artifacts to feed FoW or Chrome Mox, and it works as early defense or offense in a pinch. It might also draw away removal from Sea Drake/Efreet when you are going for an aggro route.

Then the second Servant, or extra Grindstones, you can pitch to either FoW, Chrome Mox or Thirst. So your combo piece are only rarely dead weight.

[Barook]

You should usually play your first Servant imo since it lets you pitch your artifacts to feed FoW or Chrome Mox, ...
Mox says "nonartifact, nonland" - you can't pitch those cards to a Mox, even with a Painter in play.

[rufus]

Mox says "nonartifact, nonland" - you can't pitch those cards to a Mox, even with a Painter in play.

Amusingly, the Painter's Servant can make a Mox that is already in play produce additional colors.

[ssilver]

I think the shock value would be worth it to pitch a land/artifact to FOw though:smile:

[electrolyze]

i have a question about the combo,


is there already an optimal shell were it fits in or must deck the totally depends on the combo?

what i want to ask if there is already an optimal list for this combo?

im really like to know if there is already such thing because the combo looks very solid to me.

[Michael Keller]

Amusingly, the Painter's Servant can make a Mox that is already in play produce additional colors.

Actually, that's not true. Painter's Servant doesn't affect what Moxen tap for, but it does affect the color of the Mox itself. For example, if you select the color blue when Painter comes into play, your Chrome Mox is now blue in addition to being an artifact. That doesn't mean it can tap for blue mana even though you may have removed another color card from the game for Imprint.

Please take into consideration what you say before you say it here. There are a lot of newer players who do not understand the functionality of some cards and that can lead them to spending money or trading cards for ideas that simply do not work. Ask a judge if you are uncertain in the appropriate forum.

[goobafish]

Actually, that's not true. Painter's Servant doesn't affect what Moxen tap for, but it does affect the color of the Mox itself. For example, if you select the color blue when Painter comes into play, your Chrome Mox is now blue in addition to being an artifact. That doesn't mean it can tap for blue mana even though you may have removed another color card from the game for Imprint.

Please take into consideration what you say before you say it here. There are a lot of newer players who do not understand the functionality of some cards and that can lead them to spending money or trading cards for ideas that simply do not work. Ask a judge if you are uncertain in the appropriate forum.

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the card imprinted by Chrome Mox, once Painter is in play, it will produce 2 colors as long as the removed card isn't the same color as you name with the Painter.

[Michael Keller]

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the card imprinted by Chrome Mox, once Painter is in play, it will produce 2 colors as long as the removed card isn't the same color as you name with the Painter.

Only once the Painter is in play, yes.

[Cire]

I'll probably make a new thread for this deck since i think it had potential: this is what i have been working on for the past week in my spare time

Miró Control

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
4 Painter’s Servant

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Damnation
4 Thought Seize
3 Chrome Mox
3 Liliana Vess
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Grindstone

4 bloodstained mire
3 Ancient tomb
3 B/R dual
2 Swamp
2 City of traitors
2 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foot hills
1 Mountain
1 Plain
1 W/R dual
1 B/W dual

I shied away from blue and instead opted to play REB's and discard as a control suite, the deck without painter in play is still very good against any deck that runs blue. The duress and thought seizes take care of any non-blue threats until painter comes online. Against primarily red decks like goblins, your basically stalling with the discard effects and damnation until you can get the Painter into play to start winning. Also to win you have enlightened tutor and Liliana Vess to search out the grindstone. Also Liliana Vess is a useful control engine and win con by herself, not only that it can also act as a stall since the opponent will try to kill it first instead of you. Additionally with SSG/Chrome Mox and the 2 mana lands i have gotten a fair amount of turn 2/3 wins with a consistent turn 4/5 win. The deck itself needs more work but its a pretty good control deck with a clock almost as fast as an combo deck.

After i get more testing done with it I'll post this under a new topic but until then, any criticism would be helpful. Thank you.

[Isamaru]

I like the 6+ REB Painters varients. You could probably run 2 or more Grindstone.

You should play more Enlightened Tutor targets for sure, and maybe 1 Artifact land...

What happens if you take out Simian Spirit Guide and go up to 4 Chrome Mox. You could play Night's Whisper along with the Confidants...

[Cire]

Thanks for liking the list Isamaru: anyway to your Concerns:

1) Grindstone is the worst card in the deck, you only want to run 1, even running 2 you take away spots from your deck that could be used for other things. i would rather try to find room for STP rather than more grindstone

2) Enlightened tutor is only there to search out the combo, what other target would you need? the tutor already searches out for an instant win, what other target could be better?

3) SSG doesn't cost 2 cards to produce 1 mana while the mox does, even adding night's whisper wouldn't be enough draw to offset more Card disadvantage. Also Night's whisper would cost us life, on this deck that's already heavy on life with fetchlands, bobs and ancient tombs. Additionally the only thing you need mana for is to get out Liliana Vess or the combo, and trust me you have enough B sources to not worry about getting that BB by turn 3/4, and the combo is colorless so it doesn't really matter

[Isamaru]

Some targets include Sun and Moon Wheel or Runed Halo, but both are impossible to cast here.

So, consider including at least 1x Oblivion Ring as an Enlightened Tutor target...

Yes, Grindstone is crappy, but I don't like the idea of it getting countered or counterbalanced - or, since you of course have the REBs, destroyed by Vindicate or something silly - only to have you have to try to win with Dark Confidant beits.

Asímismo, me gusta eso nombre.

[Cire]

maybe some (around 2) Goblin Welders to protect the combo pieces? Or something else to get back any Grindstone that is destroyed, just anything would be better than putting in another grindstone.

Besides its harder to get rid of than you think. CB is easily taken care of, Vindicate with painter in play is counterable, plus you can play the stone and tap it before its destroyed. The only real threat is Krosan Grip.

[WiLdFiRe]

The only real threat is Krosan Grip.

Not if you play around it and just have 4 mana to play and activate it without passing priority.
EDIT: Nvm, obviously Grip hits Painter, my bad.

[Maveric78f]

Amusingly, the Painter's Servant can make a Mox that is already in play produce additional colors.


Actually, that's not true. Painter's Servant doesn't affect what Moxen tap for, but it does affect the color of the Mox itself. For example, if you select the color blue when Painter comes into play, your Chrome Mox is now blue in addition to being an artifact. That doesn't mean it can tap for blue mana even though you may have removed another color card from the game for Imprint.

Please take into consideration what you say before you say it here. There are a lot of newer players who do not understand the functionality of some cards and that can lead them to spending money or trading cards for ideas that simply do not work. Ask a judge if you are uncertain in the appropriate forum.


I'm pretty sure he is talking about the card imprinted by Chrome Mox, once Painter is in play, it will produce 2 colors as long as the removed card isn't the same color as you name with the Painter.


Only once the Painter is in play, yes.

I have rarely seen such a bad faith.

[Cire]

Some targets include Sun and Moon Wheel or Runed Halo, but both are impossible to cast here.

So, consider including at least 1x Oblivion Ring as an Enlightened Tutor target...

Yes, Grindstone is crappy, but I don't like the idea of it getting countered or counterbalanced - or, since you of course have the REBs, destroyed by Vindicate or something silly - only to have you have to try to win with Dark Confidant beits.

Asímismo, me gusta eso nombre.

The more i think about this problem the more i come to the conclusion that we need an alternate win instead of adding more Grindstone, but then i realize we're running L. Vess who, is a beast, combined with the control of Painter + REB you can easily make him discard card after card and then BOOM you win. Grindstone is of course an easier win, but if they manage to destroy it before you win with it, you still have outs.

The oblivion ring sounds like a good idea actually, or even moat for that matter. ill see if i can find a way to cut 1 or 2 cards? Maybe 2 damnation for a moat (both stall aggro, but moat can be tutored for)?

[Isamaru]

Yes, moat sounds good, or Ghostly Prison if you can't afford the WW.

Want to just go for a 3 color / full splash? Or, what does RW offer / what can we do without black.

[Cire]

I'm going for the full 3 colors, Black offers way too much to simply be forsaken. It offers discard, removal and a tutor and win con combined in L. Vess. if were not running blue we need the black for it's tutoring, draw power and disruption. Also on the subject of mana issues and red in general, it would be awesome to find room for Manamorphose in this deck for thinning and mana fixing.

The mana base need to be changed slightly to support the WW of moat, but i think the spell base of

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
4 Painter’s Servant

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thought Seize
3 Chrome Mox
3 Liliana Vess
2 Moat
2 Damnation
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Grindstone

looks optimal for the moment, barring any more tech or manamorphose inclusions. Now outside working on the mana base we need to start building a good sideboard for this deck.

[Michael Keller]

I'm going for the full 3 colors, Black offers way too much to simply be forsaken. It offers discard, removal and a tutor and win con combined in L. Vess. if were not running blue we need the black for it's tutoring, draw power and disruption. Also on the subject of mana issues and red in general, it would be awesome to find room for Manamorphose in this deck for thinning and mana fixing.

The mana base need to be changed slightly to support the WW of moat, but i think the spell base of

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
4 Painter’s Servant

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thought Seize
3 Chrome Mox
3 Liliana Vess
2 Moat
2 Damnation
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Grindstone

looks optimal for the moment, barring any more tech or manamorphose inclusions. Now outside working on the mana base we need to start building a good sideboard for this deck.

I think you'd need to test it before jumping right into a sideboard. Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's optimal yet. Get some results.

[Cire]

Yeah i'm sorry i declared it optimal without testing it yet, i'll let you know how it does testing against the DTB's, but on the count of the SB i think it's an integral part of the deck design itself. even before testing decks i usually try to build a sb since i test in games of three (1 pre board and 2 post board). Just looking at the list i can tell it'll have trouble against decks with Krosan Grip, combo decks as fast and consistent as FT and most probably homebrew builds. But this is again all speculation and as i said by the end of the week i'll try to get enough testing done with this deck.

[Mr.C]

What about Transmute Artifact in a Stax shell? That way, you can control the game until you can transmute either part of the combo, and win.

Maybe that works better?

[georgjorge]

Well, Absolute Law should be played at least as a 1-of tutor target in the side (but I would opt for 3 slots), as every deck splashing for green runs Grips, and so far discard is your only out against that. As Law protects against not only Grips but EVERY targetted removal, it becomes MVP against non-blue decks that rely on that kind of removal. Probably also good against Goblins, either buying time until you can combo off or at least protecting from Gempalm (that you can't counter).

Also, you REALLY sure about Liliana ? It's powerful, but five mana can find you better tutoring power, and it's very slow as a win condition. If you can win with her, you'd probably win with whatever you would be tutoring up with, say, Beseech the Queen or something similar as well...

Also, what are the Spirit Guides for ? If for acceleration, they seem to be inferior to LED, which can enable second to third turn kills. They can't accelerate into Wraths, but I'm not sure where you'd need that except Goblins...

Finally, I'm not sure how often you play control, and how often you go for a fast combo...but if the latter is common, additional tutoring in Tainted Pact or Spoils of the Vault (not as risky as it appears) could be played.

[Moczoc]

Two card combos suck in a foreign shell when the pieces alone are quite bad cards in the deck. The most obvious thing would be a Mono-U-straight-towards-combo version. So here is my first list:

Combo
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Search
4 Fabricate
4 Transmute Artifact
4 Reshape

Protection
4 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Other
1 Engineered Explosives (destroys Needle)
2 Jeweled Amulet (stores mana, can be sacced for tutors)

Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
8 Island
4 Seat of the Synod

I just played a few goldfishgames

win turn 4 (backed up by 2 counters)
win turn 4 (backed up by 0 counters)
win turn 6 (backed up by 1 counters)
win turn 10 (backed up by 5 counters)
win turn 4 (backed up by 0 counters)
win turn 5 (backed up by 3 counters)

So the deck isn't quite fast yet, but most times you can be sure to force-through the win. Interesting: I never had to mulligan.

[Cavius The Great]

How has Pact of Negation been treating you? From my experience, it's a rather bad card.

[rufus]

Two card combos suck in a foreign shell when the pieces alone are quite bad cards in the deck. The most obvious thing would be a Mono-U-straight-towards-combo version. So here is my first list:
...

Does Gifts Ungiven -> Reconstruction, Transmute Artifact, Painter's Servant, Grindstone seem like a good idea for a deck like that?

[Cait_Sith]

4 Pacts does seem risky. I have only ever seen them run to great effect in Standard UW Reveillark, and even then they are only sb for the Faerie match up.

I fail to see what you gain by not running white. White gives you the almighty Enlightened Tutor, plus Argivian Find, Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares (I don't think this one will be really needed), and other such nonsense.

Also, what about using some Ancient Tombs? The primary combo has only generic mana costs and all the blue artifact tutors do require an investment of colorless mana in excess on 1 (except when searching for a Grindstone and then still Fabricate requires 2), so it seems like a good way to cut a turn off of your searching.

[Jsang]

Is it possible to utilize this combo in welder survival shell? I just built a deck similar as following,

2 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Tree of Tales
2 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Duplicant
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Heap Doll
1 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
1 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
3 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
1 Grim Tutor
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

Just a very rough suggestion, the list without fine tune nor extensive testing. Any thought?

[Pienterekaak]

How about using Gifts Ungiven to find the combo?

Painter,
Grindstone
Replendish
Argavian find

or something (does anyone have better options?)

Pienterekaak

[idraleo]

i'm trying this way, with the dreadnought backup and some vial md to get a less counterable version. Chrome mox will be a pretty add on cause they speed up the deck and is still viable:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away

[Jaynel]

A Gifts Ungiven pile of:

Painter's Servant
Grindstone
Reconstruction
Recoup

Ugh, thats terrible. It's going to cost 1UUR just to get the pieces into hand after the Gifts Ungiven (they give you the Reconstruction and Recoup). I do think Gifts is a good way to approach the deck though.

[Nihil Credo]

Drafna's Restoration also works for Gifts piles.

[Cait_Sith]

You could splash white for Argivian Find. IF you want to stick with blue, Argivian Restoration costs 4, but puts the artifact directly into play. Honestly, I like Find better.

The problem with the deck is this:

White is the color for finding your pieces.
Blue is the color for protecting your pieces.

Running both adds a large amount of vulnerability to your mana base.

Honestly, I think UW would be best in the end. Blue could give FoW, Brainstorm, and Daze. White can provide Enlightened Tutor and some Arti-Chantment destruction options in the sideboard.

You could also include Counter-Top for some insane digging/stopping action.

What do you think of that?

[Pienterekaak]

Well, if we would go straight for the combo, i would agree UW is the best, blue for protection, white for finding the combo.

But on the other hand, this combo is so versitile, it could be played in a aggro deck. This way your opponent has to have a deck thats suitable against aggro and combo. heck :P make thresh with this combo then you have a aggro, combo, control deck :p

[Happy Gilmore]

A Gifts Ungiven pile of:

Painter's Servant
Grindstone
Reconstruction
Recoup

Ugh, thats terrible. It's going to cost 1UUR just to get the pieces into hand after the Gifts Ungiven (they give you the Reconstruction and Recoup). I do think Gifts is a good way to approach the deck though.


Gifts for:

Painter's Servant
Grindstone
LFtL
Academy Ruins

Would probably be better even though it is slower.

In this setup you maximize what you can do by running EE, Crypt and the other artifacts that make this a real engine.

[xsockmonkeyx]

A Gifts Ungiven pile of:

Painter's Servant
Grindstone
Reconstruction
Recoup

Ugh, thats terrible. It's going to cost 1UUR just to get the pieces into hand after the Gifts Ungiven (they give you the Reconstruction and Recoup). I do think Gifts is a good way to approach the deck though.


Painter's Servant
Grindstone
Regrowth/Argivian Find
Reconstruction

Probably Find since white gives you tutor too.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Would Oona, Queen of the fae be viable in this deck? she removes lots of cards with painters servant and gives you lots of beats....

or what about Llawan, cephalid empress? with a servant out she turns any creature based deck into a pile of jank imo

[Pienterekaak]

both true,
but the problem is i think, the combo pieces really need eachother in order to do anything at all. Including more cards that are only usefull when painters in play is bad imo, since you dont want your painter on the field, since it will become easier to remove it, so when i play painter, i want to go for the win, instead for the coolness of making the creature deck of my opponent useless (untill he draws/plays his removal).
It might be a sideboard card against a deck like goblins, or Fairy stompy :P

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

true, i cant help it im a little kid when it comes to magic i like to watch things go BOOM

[Pienterekaak]

same here :P
but dont let that stop you from posting more combinations. you never know when you hit gold.

What about using cards like Haunting Echoes, this way grindstone has more uses than painter.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

i like a black splash

echoes
dark rit

i like where this is going....
time to drum up a list

[Pienterekaak]

white gives us ways to find the combo,
black can offer us the same, although more expensive (Beseech the Queen)
or draw with confidant.
And offers protecting by discard. (we have counters for their topdecks).
is this something to look into?

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

ok so lets get a rough sketch for a blue black version


4 Underground Sea
4 polluted Delta
6 island
5 swamp

4 chrome mox
4 dark ritual
4 lim-dul's vault
4 trinket mage
4 fabricate
3 sensei's diving top
4 counter balance
4 beseech the queen
4 painter's servant
4 grindstone
2 haunting echoes

SB
4 Chill/douse (these cards became hella strong again)
4 pithing needle
7 other slots



we might not need the top/balance combo but hey...it looks damn good on paper

[Bryant Cook]

Why dark ritual? It does next to nothing other than activating stone.

[Michael Keller]

Thing to consider...:

Main problem of any non-storm combo deck is Force of Will.
Main problem of any creature based combo deck is spot removal.

I have played against this deck last Friday and that guy defeated me due to MAINDECKING six Blasts, too. Look at it from this point of view:

- for :r: Pyroblast stops any FoW played in response to Grindstone or Servant
- Pyroblast saves Servant from spot removal (except for the short period between coming of Servant into play and its cip effect resolving, of course).

I would recommend playing Urb version of this deck, maybe even Urbw. Skeleton:

4 Grindstone
4 Painters Servant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
? Lim-Duls Vault
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
? Enl. Tutor
? TfK/Intuition
? Welder

This is similar to a list I'm working on. Except you're spreading yourself too thin it looks like - only simply relying on the combo for winning. This is a combo that should be taken advantage of because of its "colorless inclusive" nature and should therefore have some other alternate win condition or aggro threat.

Also, Lim-Duls Vault is not good in this deck. I've tested it. You know what you're going to do? Vault into stacks of piles that have a bunch of cantrips or tutor effects. Sure, you'll get into your win, but you'll be giving your opponents turns when you're really not getting anything useful.

That's bad.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Why dark ritual? It does next to nothing other than activating stone.


i facepalmed..


painters servant costs 2...and grind stone costs one...

an opening hand of

chrome mox
swamp
painter's servant
grindsotne
dark rit
swamp
random card


is a turn two win in my book...sooo why not dark ritual?



turn one

play swamp
cast chrome mox imprinting the random card
cast ritual
cast grindstone and servant


turn two
Draw
play swamp
win
???
Profit


i agree with A legend, now that i look back vault may not be a great card for the deck. what can we replace it with? also if anyone has a decent u/b list id like to see it and compare notes

maybe
-4 vault
+4 FoW


i think 4 colors is just too much. the less colors to fiddle with the better

[Michael Keller]

i facepalmed..


painters servant costs 2...and grind stone costs one...

an opening hand of

chrome mox
swamp
painter's servant
grindsotne
dark rit
swamp
random card


is a turn two win in my book...sooo why not dark ritual?

Four Dark Rituals paired with Phage and Lightning Greaves is a turn one win. Does that make it applicable?

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Four Dark Rituals paired with Phage and Lightning Greaves is a turn one win. Does that make it applicable?


damn straight

phage always wins games she should be in every deck



i dunno i just like the ability to at least put them both down in a single fell swoop without worrying about it sitting there and possibly getting killed.

this deck as i see it should go like this

sit down
win game
win game

move on to the next chooch

[Team-Hero]

I like the Persecute idea.

I was also thinking of running Compost for card draw. If your opponent uses a fetch land, you get to draw a card. If he Brainstorms, you get to draw a card. I'm just throwing the idea out there; I haven't really tested it.

[Pienterekaak]

i think persecue is to too weak. like you sad, its only very usefull in the early game, and its 4 mana. Plus, most decks have atleast 2 colours, so chances are, your only hitting 1 or 2 cards (which would make duress, hymn or thoughtseize better i guess). With painter in play, its a very strong card. but without painter.. .its sub par i think.

About the blasts.
It might work, it prefents your combo pieces to be counterd and after that it can counter any removal spell.

We should also play 1 crypt against gaya's blessing, and what do we do against a peedle?

edit: i should mention that im just getting into tournament play, i do not have the experience of alot of posters here. And im used to play aggro decks (i play goyf sligh now) and that deck makes sure every card is a good one. things like persecue are not always good, and therefor as a aggro player i would say it wont fit in this deck.

[Pienterekaak]

of those three, i like the blasts most.
They can do something on there own, and protect the combo from being counterd. With the servant in play, they become even better, since that will make them 1 mana removal and counterspells. The other two are still to dependant i think.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

So, what is the concensus on
1) Persecute
2) Blasts
3) Compost


Not sure if everyone has seen this yet (it is also Vintage), but:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=806

Vintage normally plays a lot of blue but has been recently dominated by GAT, Flash, Tyrant Oath and Tyrant Blue. If I played in a Thresh/MUC-heavy meta, chances are I would play a Legacy variation of Scarecrow.

[Michael Keller]

Not sure if everyone has seen this yet (it is also Vintage), but:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=806

Vintage normally plays a lot of blue but has been recently dominated by GAT, Flash, Tyrant Oath and Tyrant Blue. If I played in a Thresh/MUC-heavy meta, chances are I would play a Legacy variation of Scarecrow.

This is Legacy, not Vintage. The idea here is to play a Legacy version of "Scarecrow".

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

I would play a Legacy variation of Scarecrow.

Reading FTW.

EDIT: I would make use of the Blasts/cut all the stuff that isn't legal in Legacy.

[Sigar]

Four Dark Rituals paired with Phage and Lightning Greaves is a turn one win. Does that make it applicable?

How on earth can you compare 1 dark ritual with 4?

[Michael Keller]

Reading FTW.

Posting Vintage-based decks in a Legacy Developmental Forum with a Legacy deck that isn't developed, FTL. Cutting all those cards that aren't Legacy legal...is like cutting the entire deck. There is no comparison.

And I was being sarcastic about the Dark Ritualing four times into Phage...I hope you understand that. That's the new combo deck I'm working on, didn't you hear?

/Christ.

[Jaynel]

Here's my list. This deck is absolutely nutty and very consistent.

Manas (19):
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

Combo (8):
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Protection (18!):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Cantrips (15):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate

Dark Confidant is obviously amazing. He fits so well into the deck, either drawing fire away from Painter's Servant or drawing you into more Blasts and good stuff. 6 maindeck Blasts make the Threshold matchup pretty decent.

The sideboard is a little bit iffy. Extirpates for Ichorid and FT, Plagues for Goblins, Needles for Deeds, EE for randomness, Blasts for Thresh.

[ssilver]

@Jaynel: I like the look of your decklist, but does the deck roll over to armageddon stax (Deck I am playing right now). You have to counter their spells or they roll you, and they usually run sb hate that is relavent against counter decks, while you running 2 EE, and are forced to go with the servant-blast for removal. It may be the one matchup that this deck is willing to lose to if it can beat the other top decklists, but you really have no answer for Grip either. The only 3 cc cards you have are sb ed.

[Valtrix]

So, I've been toying around with a deck like this for awhile, so I think maybe I'll put some of my thoughts here, but first my decklist:

Lands(20)
4 x Gemstone Caverns
4 x Tundra
4 x Flooded Strand
1 x Polluted delta
2 x Mishra's factory
2 x Academy ruins
1 x Plains
1 x Island
1 x Seat of the Synod
Combo
4 x Painter's Servant
3 x Grindstone
4 x Enlightened tutor
4 x Street wraith
Spells
4 x Force of will
4 x Daze
4 x Counterspell
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Mana leak
2 x Impulse
2 x Cryptic command
2 x Fact or fiction
1 x Engineered Explosives
SB
4 x Orim's chant
2 x Engineered explosives
4 x Stifle
1 x Phyrexian Dreadnaught
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Tormod's crypt

Thoughts on cards:
I think that a UW version is the best, because blue should allow enough access to counterspells that the disruption that black provides would be unnecessary.

Seat of the Synod: This should be pretty obvious. Gives me blue mana, and I can tutor for it if for some reason I very desperately need a land.

Gemstone caverns(?): These are untested, so I honestly can't say how usedful they'd be (or not). Because the combo itself is colorless, and I have plenty of blue sources already, it seems like the speed it could give might be useful in some games. However, it might make more sense to cut down on speed for consistency and more mishra's/basic lands.

Mishra's factory: An alternate win condition (Even if it is small)/keep attackers at bay if necessary.

Street wraith: Seems like an obvious choice for a combo deck. I especially like the ability to tutor, then cycle to get what I want right away.

Fact or fiction: When it comes to combo, nothing helps more than digging through your deck. Plus, this provides some nice card selection and advantage later in the game. Also relatively good with academy ruins.

Impulse: Likewise seems decent for pure digging power. Seems pretty good as a 2-of anyway.

Cryptic Command: Probably my favorite choice out of a lot of the cards in here. Most importantly used for the bounce effect, which should help out nicely, but veryturns into a cantrip counterspell/attack deterrer in matchups where I don't need it.

I honestly have no idea for the sideboard >_< The biggest problem I think is finding an alternate win condition that fits, and should be very effective when necessary to use. Perhaps the combo is good enough that it doesn't really need another win condition? I think the major concern is vs. extirpate, since most other removal can be played around.

Anyway, how do you guys think this looks?

[vanele]

Assuming this deck becomes Degenerate enough to warrent board slots against it, what do we use again sideboard 2x colosuss, which runs the combo to infinte? The only thing i can think of is extract.

[Mental]

Here's my list. This deck is absolutely nutty and very consistent.

Manas (19):
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

Combo (8):
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Protection (18!):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Cantrips (15):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate

Dark Confidant is obviously amazing. He fits so well into the deck, either drawing fire away from Painter's Servant or drawing you into more Blasts and good stuff. 6 maindeck Blasts make the Threshold matchup pretty decent.

The sideboard is a little bit iffy. Extirpates for Ichorid and FT, Plagues for Goblins, Needles for Deeds, EE for randomness, Blasts for Thresh.

I was very skeptical of this deck as it's vulnerable to every sort of removal in the format, but your list certainly looks strong. I like the UBR color set, and the maindeck blasts are kinda techy. It's also cool how Blast can answer hate like Meddling Mage, a card that really seems to wreck you. Still, what's your plan against Krosan Grip post board? Maybe an alternate wincon that you can side in would be strong. I'm thinking something along the lines of Tombstalker.

[Happy Gilmore]

Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grip hit this deck prity hard, I wouldn't worry about it becoming degenerate.

[undone]

Has any one explored the MBC version of this deck, or mono brown combo :laugh: or splashing blue/white or 5 color or whatever So far I have seen tons of different builds and they seem to be all over.

heres the list i was thinking of involving enlightened tutor and others spashed.

4 enlightened tutor
4 Servant
4 grindstone
4 time vault
4 mizzits tranquilit
4 fabricate
4 trinket mage
4 orims chant
4 abyance
4 chrome mox
4 chalice of the void

4 city of trators
4 anchant tomb
4 fetches
3 tundra
1 plains


I mean its not honed or anything but we have 16 colorless cards that combo thats a 1/4th of the deck being "i win NOW combo peices" which seems good you could changes it but i think that vault deserves a place for discussion as a backup win now combo

[Sonne]

Against cards like gaea's blessing and krosan we could always play a set of Extract to get them out...but anyway the real problem at the moment isnìt the hate against the deck, but the deck itself...We don't have a common skeleton build and we're already talking of hate?This could be done probably in vintage since painter already did some nice results but here in legacy...we still have to find a common build... Probably we should decide what colors to take and try them not just brainstorm ideas that no one will ever try...I mean...without tournament proof we have half working data in my opinion...

anyway I propose the U/W version or either U/B or U/R because those are the ones I feel could work better...anyway this is just a random proposal so let's see what we can get working xD

[Asfalto]

I think that we have to decide if it's better a Counterbalance version (like Jaynel's one), a superspeed combo (like a Charbelcher deck) or some Trinket Solution build.
1. Counterbalance version: UBR. Dark Confidant boost drawing and is a target for early removal (Servant will survive more easily). Blast are cool but i think that 4 are enough Maindeck, playing some discard spell like Duress or, better, Thoughtseize (discard a Goblin or a Tarmogoyf isn't a bad thing...). The idea is locking/slow down your opponent, playing some manipulation and then close in mid-late game.
2. Charbelcher version: speedy, alternative winning condition (empty the warrens) but 4 Charbelcher means cards, you have to put off 4 cards more for this combo (8 cards), so it's not so simply to create a deck like this. Bad i think.
3. Trinket version: alternate winning condition (Dreadnought) and a strong control oriented deck... not so bad
I'm testing a version that is midway between Cephalid Breakfast and Trinket Solution...

creature [16]


4 Narcomoeba

3 Trinket mage

4 Painter's Servant

1 Sutured Ghoul

4 Tarmogoyf


instant [16]

4 Brainstorm

4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Force of Will

4 Stifle


sorcery [6]

2 Cabal Therapy

1 Dread Return

3 Ponder

enchantment [1]

1 Dragon Breath

artifact [4]

2 Grindstone

1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

1 Sensei's Divining Top

land [17]

4 Flooded Strand

4 Polluted Delta

1 Savannah

3 Tropical Island

3 Tundra

2 Underground Sea

60 cards

Sideboard:

1 Wispmare

4 Abeyance

3 Echoing Truth

3 Extirpate

4 Thoughtseize

What do you think about it? Tarmogoyf is an alternate winning condition, you can close if your opponent plays Gaea's Blessing... Maybe i'm crazy, but i want to hear it from your keyboards! :)

[NQN]

Its crap to mill yourself to get hit by swords to plowshares then. You are crazy. And btw I think that UW oder UBR are the best version.

[Mental]

Why not play Breakfast?

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you have the combo assembled, then why would you want to do anything other than win? It's infinitely easier to target your opponent with the combo and just win the game.

[caiomarcos]

This combo made top 8 appearances in both SCG Power 9 tournaments this weekend, winning one of them.

Wouldn't it be possible to port this to Legacy and make it a real contender? Or is Vintage's restricted list that makes the deck a real option?

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

This combo made top 8 appearances in both SCG Power 9 tournaments this weekend, winning one of them.

I actually posted a different Vintage Top 8 from a previous week where the deck took first. At Richmond, Painter/Grindstone combo took first running 5 REB/Pyroblast on day one. On day two one MUD deck running the combo and one running 4 REB/Pyroblast both Top 8'ed.

While a direct port of these decks is not possible, I think we can take away from this that the blasts are a good way to protect/force through the combo and that a high density of tutors may be the way to go.

The problem though too is that all of these Vintage decks run ridiculous CA engines like Gush/Bond or Metalworker/Staff which doesn't have an equivalent in Legacy.

[Nightmare]

I actually posted a different Vintage Top 8 from a previous week where the deck took first. At Richmond, Painter/Grindstone combo took first running 5 REB/Pyroblast on day one. On day two one MUD deck running the combo and one running 4 REB/Pyroblast both Top 8'ed.

While a direct port of these decks is not possible, I think we can take away from this that the blasts are a good way to protect/force through the combo and that a high density of tutors may be the way to go.

The problem though too is that all of these Vintage decks run ridiculous CA engines like Gush/Bond or Metalworker/Staff which doesn't have an equivalent in Legacy.

The other problem is that 90% or more of vintage decks are running the color blue, and that simply isn't true in Legacy. In vintage, it's been a fine choice to run REB even before Painter's Servant was printed, because it's very rare that you won't have something to Blast with it - even Ichorid has Narcomoebas, for example. In Legacy, what happens if you run into Survival, or Goblins? What about Dragon Stompy or Eva Green? The lack of broken-as-Hell blue spells in Legacy means its more of a risk to run the maindeck blasts. Sure, it's insane if you stick a Painter, but it's nowhere near as good without one.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

I totally agree. I doubt these Vintage decks have been optimized since Nighbor was running 8 Blasts and the decks from the weekend that were in the Top 8 didn't run more than 5. Since it is in Vintage though, they can get away with running that many as most decks play blue.

In Legacy the blasts may not be as effective but I think they at least are a big consideration. They would be dead in a lot of matchups without a Painter in play. Against BBC they are golden to force your combo down and protect the pieces. Against other control and spot removal, getting the pieces down isn't as tough as protecting them, which the blasts will do. The redundancy of combo pieces through tutors and recursion help here of course too.

I wouldn't advocate running 8, but maybe 2-3 could prove useful?

[Asfalto]

You're right about Blasts... I think that 3 maybe good, considering that Landstill and Threshold are the most played Legacy decks...
I can't figure that this combo may sleep unplayed in 1.5. It's good and only we have to find another way to boost the combo mechanic or use Painter for some other control tech... Maybe green for Compost? In this case we can build some 4C Landstill oriented deck, with Tarmogoyf and/or Tombstalker for alternate winning condition...

[Michael Keller]

The other problem is that 90% or more of vintage decks are running the color blue, and that simply isn't true in Legacy. In vintage, it's been a fine choice to run REB even before Painter's Servant was printed, because it's very rare that you won't have something to Blast with it - even Ichorid has Narcomoebas, for example. In Legacy, what happens if you run into Survival, or Goblins? What about Dragon Stompy or Eva Green? The lack of broken-as-Hell blue spells in Legacy means its more of a risk to run the maindeck blasts. Sure, it's insane if you stick a Painter, but it's nowhere near as good without one.

I politely disagree. REB/Pyroblast is utterly amazing in this archetype main deck. If your opponent is playing blue, then you already have a very solid advantage going into the first game. If they're not, then they obviously cannot counter Painter's Servant, thus giving you instant speed Vindicate/Counterspell at one mana. The card can be utilized even without Painter's Servant, and in my experience testing, has proven to be too good to pass up.

I crushed Tombstone 2-0 last week by Red Elemental Blasting a Swords to Plowshares. That's pretty good.

[kabal]

I crushed Tombstone 2-0 last week by Red Elemental Blasting a Swords to Plowshares. That's pretty good.

Do you mind sharing your list with us?

[umbowta]

Here's my list. This deck is absolutely nutty and very consistent.

Manas (19):
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

Combo (8):
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Protection (18!):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Cantrips (15):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate

Dark Confidant is obviously amazing. He fits so well into the deck, either drawing fire away from Painter's Servant or drawing you into more Blasts and good stuff. 6 maindeck Blasts make the Threshold matchup pretty decent.

The sideboard is a little bit iffy. Extirpates for Ichorid and FT, Plagues for Goblins, Needles for Deeds, EE for randomness, Blasts for Thresh.Now this list I like a lot. Do you really need 4 Counterbalance? Three should be enough. That would begin to make room for Thoughtseize. Further room could be had by making Pyroblasts go away.

Another thing I'm wishing was here was some tutoring. You might be able to go down to 3 Grindstones and 2 Divining Tops to squeeze in a couple Trinket Mages.

So it would look like:

4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize


4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

[Valtrix]

So, I was thinking about servant, and the one thing that I don't like about it is that painter and grindstone kind of suck together >_< So, I was wondering if maybe it fit in more of a theshold kind of shell? I guess my thoughts are that a combo and a creature assault are kind of opposed, so it's rather hard to deal with both theats at the same time. Gifts ungiven also synergies with goyf and mongoose, so that's good. In addition, grindstone doesn't have to be completely useless either, because you can give yourself threshold =P However, I'm not exactly familiar with the deck, so perhaps adding this might just make it worse. Maybe it's too clunky...I like it though. I know my other list didn't really get feedback, but I feel like posting another...Just 'cause I like Painter's Servant a lot. Probably could even go down to one grindstone--don't see this thing getting removed from game very often.

Sample list:
Land(19)
4*Tropical Island
3*Flooded strand
3*Windswept heath
3*Mishra's factory
2*Academy ruins
1*Island
1*Snow-covered island
1*Forest
1*Snow-covered forest
Creatures
4*Nimble Mongoose
4*Tarmogoyf
2*Eternal witness
2*Painter's servant
Spells
4*Force of will
4*Daze
4*Counterspell
4*Brainstorm
4*Gifts ungiven
2*Grindstone
3*Mana leak
2*Impulse
1*Engineered explosives
1*Pithing needle
1*Life from the loam
Board
3*Pithing needle
4*Krosan grip
4*Blue elemental blast
3*Tormod's crypt
1*Cryptic command

[Mental]

Now this list I like a lot. Do you really need 4 Counterbalance? Three should be enough. That would begin to make room for Thoughtseize. Further room could be had by making Pyroblasts go away.

Another thing I'm wishing was here was some tutoring. You might be able to go down to 3 Grindstones and 2 Divining Tops to squeeze in a couple Trinket Mages.

So it would look like:

4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize


4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

You definitely should cut 1 Trinket Mage for 1 Top, and the other for a 4th Grindstone. I get what you're trying to do, but it seems unnecessary as you only have 2 cards to Trinket for and both could just be upped to 3-4 ofs and you'd draw them. Also, Top is, you know, good on Turn 1/2.

[revenge_inc]

You definitely should cut 1 Trinket Mage for 1 Top, and the other for a 4th Grindstone. I get what you're trying to do, but it seems unnecessary as you only have 2 cards to Trinket for and both could just be upped to 3-4 ofs and you'd draw them. Also, Top is, you know, good on Turn 1/2.

I disagree. Top is slow. In a deck with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders Sensei's D-Top becomes redundant. However I disagree with a lot of things. In fact I hate the Red Splash.

[Mental]

I disagree. Top is slow. In a deck with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders Sensei's D-Top becomes redundant. However I disagree with a lot of things. In fact I hate the Red Splash.

Trinket Mage is slower, and more redundant, as it just fetches cards that you already play.

[Seregrauko]

I politely disagree. REB/Pyroblast is utterly amazing in this archetype main deck. If your opponent is playing blue, then you already have a very solid advantage going into the first game. If they're not, then they obviously cannot counter Painter's Servant, thus giving you instant speed Vindicate/Counterspell at one mana. The card can be utilized even without Painter's Servant, and in my experience testing, has proven to be too good to pass up.

I crushed Tombstone 2-0 last week by Red Elemental Blasting a Swords to Plowshares. That's pretty good.

I might be brainfarting here, but: Painter's Servant says "All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are the chosen color in addition to their other colors." So you can't use REB/Blast as instant Vindicates then.. -So much for Blasting a Needle set @ Grindstone ;)

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

[undone]

I gave up on the double combo version with vault it just wasnt good enough. The new version I am testing is UBGW landstill with the standard landstill base but tossed in "WIN NOW" combo cards, it has been working just like landstill, you mull the game about hitting for 2 or 4 every now and then and then instead of taking forever you just "win right now" occasionaly. This also helps because tutor means that you can hit your combo if you need to not lose to time! :D

4 Perncious Deed
4 Standstill

4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or fiction
4 Enlightened tutor

2 Crucible
1 Servant
1 Grindstone
1 EE
1 Humility

4 Mishras factory
2 Nantuko monistary
4 flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Plains
1 Island

[Nightmare]

I might be brainfarting here, but: Painter's Servant says "All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are the chosen color in addition to their other colors." So you can't use REB/Blast as instant Vindicates then.. -So much for Blasting a Needle set @ Grindstone ;)

Please correct me if I'm wrong!
You're wrong.

[No_Life_No_Future]

This seems pretty awesome as a way to lock out your opponent if they dont play grips.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Cost: 3U
Type: Legendary Creature - Cephalid
Pow/Tgh: 2/3
Rules Text: When Llawan, Cephalid Empress comes into play, return all blue creatures your opponents control to their owners' hands. Your opponents can't play blue creature spells

[Bryant Cook]

This seems pretty awesome as a way to lock out your opponent if they dont play grips.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Cost: 3U
Type: Legendary Creature - Cephalid
Pow/Tgh: 2/3
Rules Text: When Llawan, Cephalid Empress comes into play, return all blue creatures your opponents control to their owners' hands. Your opponents can't play blue creature spells

Why? Cards that arn't good without painter suck. Play Reap and get back 10 cards a turn from your graveyard. It's still not winning the game.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Well reap doesnt work with REBs and grindstone sucks before painter as well. I am suggesting Llawan, Cephalid Empress almost like a second win condition as you can swing /w painter and it against anything that doesnt play manlands or make tokens.... yikes..

I just realized that painter kinda destroys ichorid....sweet.

[Jaynel]

Cards retain their original colors; Painter doesn't overwrite them. Black creatures in the graveyard are black and blue/green/white/red with a Painter in play.

[Apex]

Anybody thought of using Merchant Scroll with this? They are abusing Painter's Servant with Grindstone and Merchant Scroll in Vintage already. We have Merchant Scroll too, but I don't know how effective it is in Legacy, considering we can't Scroll -> Vampiric Tutor -> Grindstone. But it still lets you tutor out any instant in your library straight to your hand with a servant, and maybe some relevant blue instants without.

Maybe worth a look? At least it seems decent if you want a toolbox approach, where Merchant Scroll can tutor up stuff like Krosan Grip, Extirpate, etc with a Servant (and Brainstorm without).

[freakish777]

Merchant Scroll is crap. The only reason it started seeing play in Vintage is because Ancestral Recall is broken.

The question is how does Merchant Scroll help us if we don't have Painter? Grab Force of Will?

Force of Will is the only card I can imagine actually wanting to be able to pay 1U to go and grab, and that's only in the combo match.

Brainstorm at 1UU is atrocious.

Tutoring up REB/Krosan Grip/Etc with Merchant scroll just doesn't seem worthwhile as for as the number of cards in the deck is concerned.

EDIT:

For 1 more you can play Cunning Wish which has historically done better in Legacy.

[Apex]

But you are stuck thinking along the lines of a pure combo approach. But Painter's Servant + Grindstone seems so open-ended in the number of possible approach in building this deck, that I think everything should at least be tested.

I mean, I can even image the use of Goblin Welder with Servant + Grindstone. Don't need the artifacts? Weld it out. Need it to win? Weld it back in.

Dismissing it so casually without any testing seems...shortsighted, no?

Can you absolutely guarantee 100% that Merchant Scroll will "uber-phail" in conjuction with Painter's Servant? If not, then it's worth some testing, since like I said before, there seems to be about a zillion ways of building around a 2 card colourless combo. What about some UW control shell? Where you can use Scroll for Enlightened Tutor for Grindstone for the win, and it's a shell you wouldn't really hate paying 1U and U over a couple of turns for a tutorable Brainstorm effect. Scroll works with FoW when you've got the combo assembled. Enlightened Tutor also can get stuff like Moat/Solitary Confinement/etc to buy you time and setup.

There are so many approach to this deck that I don't understand why people are just stuck to the pure combo approach. I mean, it's not even that fast of a combo deck (it's not faster than TES, Belcher, or FT). Why can't we just diversify and brainstorm some other ideas?

[umbowta]

I disagree. Top is slow. In a deck with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders Sensei's D-Top becomes redundant. However I disagree with a lot of things. In fact I hate the Red Splash.You know, I happen to agree with you on the red splash. Even in the list I posted, the only reason for red was to run main deck REB which is only good when you're playing against blue spells or you've resolved a painter. Why REB at all? So you can counter or destroy random shit one you're about ready to combo off anyway? It seems that counters and discard should have the problems nailed down pretty well without having to screw over the mana base just to maindeck some cards that have traditionally been purely sideboard material.

[CalebD]

IMO the main reason for the red splash in legacy is not for the REBs, Counterbalance does a much better job of protecting the combo, and EE is more versatile (can take out needles as well as hoards of tokens) while being tutorable w/ trinket mage.

I like Pyroclasm out of the board a lot, especially with painter as a 1/3. I also like Lightning bolt for its ability to pick off a creature or speed your clock up a turn. Fire/Ice is stall/removal that can also sit on top of your library to counter Landstill's disks/humilities/gifts.

That said, here's the list I've been testing.

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [US] Island (3)
4 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [TE] Grindstone
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Lots of combos, lots of backup plans and backup plans for the backup plans. Did I mention the backup plans?

I think this list has a much better game against gobblins/other random aggro than some of the lists on here. What're you going to do when painters servant gets gempalm incinerated? I love dark confidant to an unhealthy extent, but how long is it honestly going to last? Goyf is much harder to kill and can straight up win you the game when confidant might just draw you crap. Confidant is amazing in storm combo because every spell it draws you is +1 storm and every attack it lands is also +1 storm, but here you have a combo of two cards, meaning card quality/search>card advantage. Trinket Mage>Confidant!

I might take out the misdirections sb for some more hot REB action, I tested against MB and while they were a house, they didn't seem necessary. MD Brainstorm, FoW, SDT and counterbalance are probably the only hate we need against that element. Against the other decks were Misdirections are good, REBs seem better.

I tested the mirror a bit and his MD rebs seemed pretty bad. I wouldn't run more than 2/3 and it'd have to be in a VERY blue metagame.

Again, not dissing anyone's color choices just putting mine out there. Duress/Thoughtseize are incredibly good in the deck, perhaps good enough to warrant black by themselves.

[freakish777]

Can you absolutely guarantee 100% that Merchant Scroll will "uber-phail" in conjuction with Painter's Servant?

Yes.

[Michael Keller]

Everyone is going to be a critic to "shells" of this archetype until numbers in larger tournaments begin showing up. I mean seriously, I must have read about twenty different lists in this thread. For Christ's sake, just play your incarnation at a large event, place, and put it on the map. It's starting to feel like spam.

All this thread is doing is recycling itself every other page with a different version of the combo. It's seriously frying my brain. Until...

A.) We can agree on one or two paths to take the combo, or
B.) Someone places high in a large tournament

...there is no point in posting in here anymore. There is no starting point to take this idea anywhere relevant other than people brainstorming and bickering between whose list is better. Seriously.

There should be two Painter/Stone threads in Developmental:

The "Red Blast" variation and the "Counter-Top" variation. That seems to be the general consensus.

[xsockmonkeyx]

there is no point in posting in here anymore. There is no starting point to take this idea anywhere relevant other than people brainstorming and bickering between whose list is better. Seriously.

[BoomChild]

I played this archetype to a 4-0 finish at the last event I went to...

Creatures:

4x Painter's Servant
4x Dark Confidant
3x Trinket Mage

Spells:

4x Force of Will
4x Aether Vial
4x REB
4x Pyroblast
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Grindstone
1x EE
1x Crypt
1x Needle

Land:

4x Strand
2x Delta
1x Mire
2x U.Sea
3x Volc Island
1x Academy Ruins
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Swamp

I found through the 4 matches that I played that the archetype plays very similarly to any normal fish deck. Use the vial obviously to conserve mana for your controling spells and finding what you need. The blasts can be used offensively as vindicates when you name Blue and if you need to they counter very well. This could be explored deeper and expanded.....

[gypsy]

i think the best way for the deck to be good is to put it in either a landstill type of shell or a counterbalance threshold/chase rare deck

i played my own version of the deck to a top 3 of a m-l trial ( i know thats not sayin much) but the deck seemed rly powerful and i want to make it better

http://magic-league.com/deck/42565/legacy_t15.html#PainterStone53512

[kabal]

Everyone is going to be a critic to "shells" of this archetype until numbers in larger tournaments begin showing up.

I just got back from my weekly Legacy tournament where there was 33 people, which included 4 the Servant's Stone; 1 Ugr and 3 Uw. The Ugr version split in the top 4. Which it ran Goyf, CB and some Red Blasts.

[revenge_inc]

I just got back from my weekly Legacy tournament where there was 33 people, which included 4 the Servant's Stone; 1 Ugr and 3 Uw. The Ugr version split in the top 4. Which it ran Goyf, CB and some Red Blasts.
Quite interesting. Please provide the list when you have time. I still wouldn't dismiss the Uw version though.

[undone]

Question, has any one brought up the idea of sticking this dude in survival? seems like

survival for Trinket mage, followed by play TM followed by go for servant go off. Survival makes this essentialy a 1 card combo. yes you lose force and such but something like

4 survival
1-2 Trinket
1-2 servant
1-2 grindstone

would fit this into survival easily. I dont think that a deck should be built around this I think he fits easily as a back up win in other decks that were good already and could tutor for him.

[Pienterekaak]

Question, has any one brought up the idea of sticking this dude in survival? seems like

survival for Trinket mage, followed by play TM followed by go for servant go off. Survival makes this essentialy a 1 card combo. yes you lose force and such but something like

4 survival
1-2 Trinket
1-2 servant
1-2 grindstone

would fit this into survival easily. I dont think that a deck should be built around this I think he fits easily as a back up win in other decks that were good already and could tutor for him.

yes, it has been suggested if you look a few pages back

[Tical2000]

Hi, I'm new here. I just figured I'd give me 2 cents on Servant's Stone. I realize that cards that aren't good without Painter's Servant shouldn't be discussed but I'm going to suggest something anyway. I recently was playing a game on MWS and my opponent named red then drew like 6 cards off of a Baleful Stare. Not bad for a three mana spell. Beats the hell outta Meditate but it's a sorcery which is kind of bad. I also figured that naming Blue is more optimal but I just wanted to get that idea out there. Thanks!

[smoky squirrel]

I absolutely love Jaynel's list. But I am going to switch the REB by BEB's, since my meta is quite G/R Loam and Dragon Stompy heavy. Is this a good idea, or should i just keep the config and hope that I can keep a Servant on the board against these decks?

[Tical2000]

I absolutely love Jaynel's list. But I am going to switch the REB by BEB's, since my meta is quite G/R Loam and Dragon Stompy heavy. Is this a good idea, or should i just keep the config and hope that I can keep a Servant on the board against these decks?

You need REB's and name Blue for Force of Will. Atleast from my experience, that's how it works.

[smoky squirrel]

Yeah, I know why the red blasts are there for, but my meta is mainly red, so this way I don't rely on the Servant. Jaynel's list does die to a chalice on 1 without FoW... If it lands, nothing can stop it for that build.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah, I know why the red blasts are there for, but my meta is mainly red, so this way I don't rely on the Servant. Jaynel's list does die to a chalice on 1 without FoW... If it lands, nothing can stop it for that build.

'Tis why you need to play around it and have answers readily available.

[Jaynel]

Yeah, I know why the red blasts are there for, but my meta is mainly red, so this way I don't rely on the Servant. Jaynel's list does die to a chalice on 1 without FoW... If it lands, nothing can stop it for that build.

EE works wonders. 2 can be easily found with Bob, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top.

[Tical2000]

Yeah, I know why the red blasts are there for, but my meta is mainly red, so this way I don't rely on the Servant. Jaynel's list does die to a chalice on 1 without FoW... If it lands, nothing can stop it for that build.

If you're meta is mostly red then you can run Baleful Stare. :wink: That's probably your best bet if you ever decided to go the BEB route.

[Michael Keller]

There's nothing wrong with playing B.E.B. main deck, it really does depend on your meta. If you were bringing it to a larger venue, then R.E.B. would be a safer choice. In this instance, you'd have to probably rework your land configuration.

[Braves]

Any serious success with a version of this deck @ any larger tournaments yet?

[Brehn]

There's this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16194) deck... 8th out of 44. Note: 4 Accumulated Knowledge, no ways to find them besides 4 Brainstorm. Something should be wrong here.

[smoky squirrel]

Look at the rest of the top 8. You see what is wrong.

[MTL10]

Look at the rest of the top 8. You see what is wrong.

haha, yea i agree with your.. seriously, nihilith? followed by elves? what was this? a casual players only tournament?

[Shugyosha]

Look at the rest of the top 8. You see what is wrong.

Threshold, Landstill, Survival, Belcher, AggroLoam... what's the problem? Some lists have strange card choices but are nevertheless good enough.

[smoky squirrel]

That is what I mean. The builds are subpar, so they don't punish the deck for running subpar cards. The big problem is, you cannot predict from this result how this deck would keep afloat using 'good' cards in a field of well built decks.