[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Jak]

@Misplayer
I don't consider those decks to be a bad matchup. Mostly because I am acclimated to an environment where the most popular decks tend to be aggro. But to say that Burning Wish for a Flamespout or Wrath of God is better than just running Flamespout or Wrath of God for these matchups is silly; obviously, Burning Wish will cost you speed due to its sorcery-speed nature, which is a drawback that Cunning Wish does not have.

I have no problem with Red Elemental Blast. I would go far as to say that it's better than Blue Elemental Blast.

I always felt that the splash should play only a supporting role. Building a deck around Burning Wish is not that.

I'm not talking about CounterTop... and how does Bolt remove Bridge From Below? Are we talking about killing your own token or Mishra's Factory? To be honest, I doubt they would care. You're paying 1-2 cards to remove a card that was probably just Dredged into the graveyard for free. I fail to see how Lightning Bolt being better than Swords effects figure into Dread Return.

I was kidding about the URw thing, talking mostly about how it sounds. I did not expect you to entertain it.

The Silver Bullet argument is flawed. If a card like Telemin Performance is so good, why not maindeck it or sideboard it in? I can see the appeal of the versatility, but to say you are not sacrificing is untrue. Your performance against aggro will be slower by the two additional mana necessary to play Burning Wish. More when you throw in Cursecatchers and whatnot.

I don't think Burning Landstill will work. The sorcery-speed drawback is simply too much a sacrifice in speed for a pure control deck in Legacy.

@crz87
If your environment is aggro like mine, stick to white or black. I have 8 Sword effects and 4 Blue Elemental Blast, 7 sources of mass removal, and 2 Humility altogether in my maindeck and sideboard. If black, stick to Engineered Plague, Planar Void, and Extirpate.

I always liked Braid of Fire, but I wonder how it is going to work when mana burn is removed in the M2010 rules. I mean, it works right now thanks to Sensei's Divining Top. Will it be banned? Hmmm...

Against Zoo, remember, Blue Elemental Blast is your friend. Kills everything but Tarmogoyf pretty much. Then the Humility hits the board. xD

@Shawn
I agree. I find Swords much more effective against aggro than burn. A red splash is unnecessary. Black is perhaps the best option, followed by green.

But I disagree on REB. REB is an amazing card. It is even better than Spell Snare in some matchups.

@Misplayer
I disagree. Engineered Plague is enough, provided you make sure a Lord of Atlantis doesn't hit the board.

I think you should cut Counterspell. Your deck does not look geared to find early UU; I mean, at least cut the Wastelands instead of pretending like you have some mana fixers. And the sideboard needs a bit of work.

@crz87
NLU is Next Level Blue, right? I personally cannot readily identify a single stable variant of NLU. Everybody seems to run it as they wish.

But yeah, splashing a tiny bit of red for REB is interesting. I mean, I could try UWgr for kicks. xD

@Jak.
OR you can just play one of those cards in Burning Wish's place and not splash red, thus sparing you the drop in mana consistency and the sacrifice in speed. ^^

@crz87
Glittering Wish sort of suffers from the same problems. I tried that route once. Did not work out well for me.

Okay, you seem to misunderstand he role of Burning Wish. The deck isn't built around it. As you can see from the list I threw together, Burning Wish acts as anything I want it to. Do I think it is slow? Yes. Do I think it is worth it? Yes. Going turn 3 Burning Wish--> turn 4 Firespout will win you the game against Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins. Sometimes a Turn 4 Wrath isn't possible because of Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, and Port so having cheap answers actually is faster. The versatility is amazing.

Now, Fire/Ice alongside Swords is amazing against Aggro. Burn is better most of the time because it can two for one and it is cheaper. In my list I was still running plenty of removal MD (4 Swords, 3 EE, 2 Wrath) alongside the Fire/Ice. Plus 3 Burning Wish for access to Wrath Vengeance, etc. The deck doesn't lose out on the removal.

The reason a Wish board is so good is because you can run narrow answers that win you the game. Holding off Tendrils or another Landstill variant long enough o B Wish for Performance will mill their whole library. The card would be terrible against Thresh, Eva Green , Goblins, or any other deck with more than 10 creatures. Even if you did cut the Burning Wishes in my list, you lose 3 Removal spells, 3 Draw spells, and 3 Win Conditions. It can act as all those cards.

Please think about what you are saying. Multiple times in you post you just keep saying, 'Why not run Firespout MD?' or 'If Telemin Performance is soo good, why don't you play it MD?'. It isn't possible without Burning Wish.

[Ectoplasm]

Regarding the post crz87 made, what's the general verdict on the 'speedstill' lists with the heavy black splash for additional removal? Is it even worthwhile since we have PtE now? Playing a zillion edicts seems inferior to just adding 4 more swords.

[GGoober]

I think Vindicate is much more Flexible than Path, although I can see Edicts getting replaced by Path instead of Vindicate. It fits the 3cc slot nice in Speedstill lists.

I'll post results tomorrow if I decided to play this instead of Belcher. If someone plays DStompy, then I won't play Belcher. I think it's much worse for Belcher to fight 3Sphere.dec than for Landstill to fight 3Sphere/Moon.dec :P

[klaus]

Regarding the post crz87 made, what's the general verdict on the 'speedstill' lists with the heavy black splash for additional removal? Is it even worthwhile since we have PtE now? Playing a zillion edicts seems inferior to just adding 4 more swords.

For reference, here's my current list (it's been working just fine for me):

4 Standstill
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Dust Bowl
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
-
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Jace Beleren
1 Kitchen Finks
---

As you see I've cut Smothers and Edicts. This move seemed logical due to a number of reasons: more emphasis on UW = consistency and stability, Spellsnare (Edict/Smother no likey) and the fact 7 Swords alongside 2 EE & 4 Vindicate is more than enough removal most of the time. I really only wish for more against Tribal.dec and that's where those 4 Plagues come in.

I could write several essays on Jace and Finks but they've been discussed at length and were mostly discarded. Talking Speedstill, Finks is still my #1 weapon of choice VS aggro, while Jace is my #1 bomb VS control.
-
Anyway, I'm aware that the Speedstill approach is kind of misleading for the general discussion of topics in this thread since it's got a slightly different concept, which is why I'd suggest to continue the discussion via PM, if there's any interest.

[GGoober]

As promised, here's a report. I decided to play Landstill instead of Belcher and not betray Brainstorm and FOW. So here goes my report. Note the 1MD Mystical Tutor (MTutor). It was golden MVP all day.

(for more information for Houston Legacy, go to http://www.asgardgames.net/forums/index.php?topic=27.msg2989#new)

Tournament 16: 06/28/09
Top 4:
1st/2nd split: Brian with UBr ANT, Chris Z with UBw Wishstill
3rd: Reed with Burn
4th: Andrew with Dragonstompy

Participants
Jeff - Team America
Brian - UBr ANT
Chris Zhou - UWb Wish-still
Dan - RGw Zoo
Patrick - Tokens bombardment?
Michael - LED Dredge
Reed - Burn
Joey - RGw Zoo
Andrew - Dragonstompy
????? - Red Death???

Who was the last guy?

Landstill is THE deck that I love. I felt so much smoother playing it. Man, it seriously hates out Zoo.

Here's my report for those interested:

DECKLIST:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility

2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth

SB:
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust
2 Path to Exile
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Crucible
3 BEB



MATCH 1: Dan with RGw Zoo

Game 1:
He wins the die roll and bolts, drop Nacatl and Goyf which I snared. He swings and Helix me bringing my life total down to 11. I swords Nacatl and he dropped Jitte followed by Helix bringing my life to 8. EOT I MTutor for Wish and proceed to stabilize with Pulse. He drops and equips Pridemage and I wrath the lonely cat. He draws land pass go, EOTFOF:
A) Elspeth
B) Vindicate
B) Standstill
B) Factory
B) Land
I take pile B. He was afraid of Elspeth beats but I think B was the stronger pile since it was card advantage and a beater with Vindicate against his next creature drop (I still have pulse).

Funnily, I topdeck Elspeth and dropped Elspeth and Standstill. He scoops.


Game 2: -1 Snare, -3 Vindicate, +2 Path, +3 BEB
I open with Wasteland, FoF, Standstill, Decree, 2 Plains, Tundra. Very weak hand but I kept it for some stupid reason. I guess I was afraid of missing Landdrops and losing because of it, and I figured that with all the newly boarded hate, I'll have a high chance of drawing them.

Game turned out to be alright as I expected. He plays Lavamancer and I path it, having bad experience with the Red mage. He lands pridemage and I waste Taiga since he didn't drop a land after my path. He gets stuck on no mana and my life went from 18/15/12/8 as 1/1 Ape gets in there with 2/2 cat. I play Elspeth and he plays Lavamancer. I made the mistake by FOF hoping to draw a path/swords/BEB where I should have cycled decree to chump and bought time since I had wish in hand. I wished for pulse next turn but he had Fireblast + REB to protect it.

Game 3: no changes to board
I open with StP, EE, Tundra, Factory, Humility, Standstill, Wish. Strong hand. He plays Nacatl and I StP EOT and drop Standstill. He cracks the still with Teeg (damn!) and I drew into StP which sends Mr T. to the farms. I land Humility not missing a land drop and the game ends there after he overextends and I wrath.


2-1



MATCH 2: Patrick with Tokens bombardment

Game 1:
I had no idea what he was playing as he opened with T1 birds. I guessed Survival/Rock. He lands Goyf while I play out my land drops against a 0/1 Goyf and 0/1 Bird. He plays Fecundity. I was lost. I played Elspeth and he swings in with 1/2 Goyf which I blocked and drew a card off Fecundity. I decided to Vindicate Fecundity before he had some card-draw shenanigan. I make him overextend and get 2 counters on a resolved Jitte before I wrath with him hellbent. I snared Goyfs and proceed to beat with factories, and land Elspeth drawing 2 FOWs as I swing in with 6 damage a turn.


Game 2: -1 Vindicate, -1 Humility, + 2 Path (no idea what he played but extra StP against Goyf is good.)
I kept an iffy hand of 2 Factories, Vindicate, EE, Path, Island, FOW. Topdecked a SS and things get better as he didn't play out anything for 2 turns. I beat with Factory and resolved Elspeth, Decreed and Standstill. His life went from 20/18/12/4.

I played him a couple of games later and realized his deck. It's really interesting. Garruk+Bitterblossom+Thrinax+Fecundity+Jitte+Goblin Bombardment. It made me want to make a deck with Fecundity. That was the one card that I was scared all day long. Card advantage!


4-1





MATCH 3: Draw into Top 4 with Andrew (Dragonstompy)

Playtested a game. It involves me playing against turns 1-2, floating white to StP Magus, letting Bloodmoon resolve after fetchin basic Plains and Island, and blowing up Mauler + Bloodmoon with EE, and Wrathing, StPing all his creatures, and landing Factories to win.

This matchup is not as unfavorable if you can fetch 2 basics. It's just a more troublesome aggro deck, but EE does a lot for the deck. Wish goes for Return to Dust, which is helpful.

5-1-1



MATCH 4: Reed with Burn

Game 1:
I hit myself in the face since I wasn't expecting burn. Worst matchup for Landstill but winnable with Wish-builds. MTutor was MVP all day.

He wins the die roll and goes with Spike + Marauder. My life total drops 20/17/16/13 before I land Standstill. Reed is inexperienced so I had to explain Standstill to him. He seemed not to understand that drawing 3 cards is a good thing as he's cool with Standstill. It was cute. I commented drawing 3 cards is huge. He cracks it with PoP for 4 damage, I'm at 9, then 5, and I wish and pulsed. For the rest of the game, he burned while I pulsed carefully. My life jumped like this:
5/9/6/10/7/3/2/6/14/11/8 and Standstill and his life was going liek 20/17/15/13/11/9/7/5. I'll let you figure what killed him. I believe Factory was involved while Pulsing away.


Game 2: -2 Wrath, -1 Humility, -3 EE, +3 BEB, +2 Extirpate, + 1 Fact (probably should have kept EE against Vortex, forgot about it, but BEB does it)

I open with super strong hate-hand against burn:
FOW, snare, 2 Standstill, MTutor (again, MTutor means Pulse is coming if I can protect it from REB, but apparently he didn't side them in).

He opens with Chain, Lava Spike, Fanatic. I hated but I FOWed fanatic because I needed to land Standstill not risking Fanatic coming in under Standstill and putting my life on danger. So my life went from 20/17/14/13/12/9/8 while I drew 3 off Standstill and laid another Standstill. He had another Fanatic under my Standstill but I played the Standstill since I had decree to cycle and chump. He cracks Standstill with PoP and I snare it, wished for Pulse and did the life dance from 12/9/13/12/9/8/5/9. He tried his best but it wasn't going anywhere as his life went from 20/18/15/10/5/0 (Elspeth was involved).


Comments:
MTutor is enormous. 1 MD felt right. I think 2 might be too much in theory but testing 1MD is golden. I was able to tutor for Cunning Wish for Pulse for the aggro matchups, and tutor for Vindicate for pin-point removal, or Wrath against swarm, or FoF when I needed cards. I really need to play 2 FoF, but the list is very tight at the moment. EE was amazing, and there were no dead cards at all in this build. Humility came down once and was amazing since my Zoo opponent (Dan) didn't expect artifacts/enchantments so didn't board in grips. Honestly, I might take the Humility out and play 2 FoF, and take Enlightened Tutor out in the SB for a free slot.

Pulse is stupidly good against aggro/burn. Against Zoo, they can't counter it, so it's golden. I think UWb does really well against Zoo, Goblins, Red tribal, combo to some extent if you have Negates in the board, and resilient to DStompy. It probably has bad matchups with Merfolks and Vial.deck, but Speedstill list is really strong against aggro. 6 StP effects was good. 8 is overboard since we have 16 ways of dealing with them (2 Wrath, 4 StP, 2 Path, 3 EE, 1 Humility, 3 Vindicate).

I love playing with huge card advantage, and recovering from card loss after removal. I love it when my opponents are hellbent and I have a full 7 card in hand with counter magic and a clear board. I love landstill and I love FoF <3

My list is a hybrid of Speedstill and wish-still so I hope you guys enjoyed the read. Cunning Wish is too valuable in the deck. Pulse saves lives and Return to dust is really strong against Stompy.dec or Stax. I tested a few games against Dredge and surprisingly it wasn't that bad Game 1. You need to FOW the discard, StP the first Ichorid if possible, and wasteland/Vindicate their mana hoping they never get a land, and wait until Cunning Wish for Extirpate on ichorid if you have EE@0 or Extirpate on Bridge if you don't have EE.



@Klaus: I like the new list, looks interesting and I like Kitchen Finks, but maybe it's you but I think there's too much aggro-hate. I would cut to zero paths in the MD, and run 2 Wish. You have 4 Vindicates, 4 StP, 2 EE to deal with aggro. Maybe a Wrathless Landstill is good. Wrath did help clear messy boards for me today, so depending on the meta, if there's tribal/zoo, wrath is better, and i would drop 1 Vindicate and play 2 Wraths, but 3 Path MD is good against aggro (which I boarded in today, total 6 StP effect) but I think dropping them for Game 2/3 is better since you can play better against combo/other non-aggro decks. Landstill can win the aggro matchups easily anyway.

I like 2 Jace. I really want to play them, and they're golden against the mirror or control.

[mossivo1986]

2 plains 1 island is the key to dragon stompy. You achieve this you win, if you don't you need to be able to win through their attrition which can be nearly impossible sometimes.

Team Awesome tried wish vindicate. In all of my testing I found both together to be too clunky. In my testing I found that either path was more playable in the vindicate slot because of efficiency; or that relic was simply better at doing what relic does best; hoze asshats for using their ass-hattery to ass-hat themselves into a better ass-hatting position. This was usually achieved with the power of blue cards like brainstorm and ponder, but sometimes LFTL was used behind this asshatting nonsense.

p.s. Ass-Hat...

[NQN]

Hi there, I played this list in two tournaments this week and went 3-0 and 3-1-1.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast

The list is really good atm and the SB can be changed to whatever you expect. I turned away from Vindicates now because of the low blue count it acquires.(Does anyone need a Playset simchin Vindis?^^)

I lost to Goblins because he got nuts with me don´t playing a spell. The Draw was against Zoo because he killed my Elspeth before the turns were called but I already had Pulse so it was actually a Win for me :/

B2Topic: I like Ajani Vengeant and therefor like the Idea of an Uwrx LS version but I still don´t see why it should be better :/ We make ourselve more vulnerable against CB and Spell Snare and loose the Power of Pulse. Seems meh to me.

nqn


PS: I think I´ll cut TOlaria West. It always sucked in my openers and was never really useful in the past ~5 tournaments. Maybe I go for more basics.

[Waikiki]

For reference, here's my current list (it's been working just fine for me):

<llist>

I find the list very interesting. Only 1 thing bothers me. The blue count has this been a issue for you in the past?

[klaus]

I find the list very interesting. Only 1 thing bothers me. The blue count has this been a issue for you in the past?

Sometimes, yes.
I'm not sure whether upping the blue count would be beneficial, since I'd have to add suboptimial cards. I think 17 U cards is the bare minimum to run with FOW. The list above has 18, which, considering Jace and Standstill provide you with enough CA, are sufficient most of the time.

The only choice that I'd reconsider atm is that 4th Vindicate, which could easily be replaced by CS. But I'm hesitant to do so, since Vindicate is a crucial out against a resolved CB, whereas CS is not really.

[Mark Sun]

Hi there, I played this list in two tournaments this week and went 3-0 and 3-1-1.
<snip>

The list is really good atm and the SB can be changed to whatever you expect. I turned away from Vindicates now because of the low blue count it acquires.(Does anyone need a Playset simchin Vindis?^^)

I lost to Goblins because he got nuts with me don´t playing a spell. The Draw was against Zoo because he killed my Elspeth before the turns were called but I already had Pulse so it was actually a Win for me :/

B2Topic: I like Ajani Vengeant and therefor like the Idea of an Uwrx LS version but I still don´t see why it should be better :/ We make ourselve more vulnerable against CB and Spell Snare and loose the Power of Pulse. Seems meh to me.

nqn


PS: I think I´ll cut TOlaria West. It always sucked in my openers and was never really useful in the past ~5 tournaments. Maybe I go for more basics.

If you're serious about selling the Vindicates, shoot me a PM. I wouldn't mind getting a playset for future use somewhere, probably even add in a Watery Grave (I'm a cheap ass), Smother/Diabolic Edict mixture for a Speedstill variant.

For the deck that I have now (mossivo's shell with my SB), I'm also considering cutting Tolaria West/Dust Bowl for 2x Wasteland. Something about me, or my playstyle where I'm just not gelling with it (I get the same issue with TW in my opener as well). That can't really be fixed :P

I don't see the merit in UWrx Landstill either, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

[FoolofaTook]

@NQN - black splash and no Vindicate? What's the plan against Planeswalkers?

The black splash expresses its power in 3 ways, first it gives you access to Vindicate which is the strongest single card removal in the game, second it gives you access to EE@3, and finally it gives you access to Extirpate and maybe Diabolic Edict in the wish board. I just don't see opening yourself up to extra non-basic hate unless you are getting the best bang out of the transaction.

[NQN]

I splash black for EE@3, Extirpate and sometimes E.Plagues.
My "plan" against Planeswalker is that since nobody except us plays them,
the legendary rule is helpful sometimes ;)

[FoolofaTook]

I splash black for EE@3, Extirpate and sometimes E.Plagues.
My "plan" against Planeswalker is that since nobody except us plays them,
the legendary rule is helpful sometimes ;)

That works for Elspeth and maybe Jace. The Planeswalkers that I fear at the moment are Garruk and the Ajani's. Garruk because he over-rides Humility when he alpha-strikes and the Ajani's because they mess with a control concept's inevitability.

[rsaunder]

That works for Elspeth and maybe Jace. The Planeswalkers that I fear at the moment are Garruk and the Ajani's. Garruk because he over-rides Humility when he alpha-strikes and the Ajani's because they mess with a control concept's inevitability.
I haven't had much issue honestly. They're rarely played as it is and IF they hit the table I've never been unable to kill them off within a few turns with factories and decree tokens.

That being said, if they do become more prevalent, I bet that my "kill them" strategy won't be quite enough. Is there any good wishable answer to 'em?
Other than something like wipe away I suppose.

[FoolofaTook]

I haven't had much issue honestly. They're rarely played as it is and IF they hit the table I've never been unable to kill them off within a few turns with factories and decree tokens.

That being said, if they do become more prevalent, I bet that my "kill them" strategy won't be quite enough. Is there any good wishable answer to 'em?
Other than something like wipe away I suppose.

Garruk is played enough at this point to be a problem and the Ajani's are both on the rise. The problem I have with Garruk is that the untap lands ability leads to continual acceleration once he hits the board and allows for much easier plays to bait out counters. Then the tokens that he creates become either chump blockers that can kill a Mishra's or build up over time under a Humility until the alpha-strike.

[GGoober]

I've played against a random Token deck with bitterblossom and Garruk AND Fecundity. You have no idea how happy I had Vindicate. It saved my ass against Garruk. wrath did nothing and my factories were worthless.

Bitterblossom is easier to deal with with EE, but Garruk/Fecundity/CB/random shit is solved by Vindicate. 3 Vindicate has been good for me. I'm not sure about 4. I will probably want to play the 2nd Fact instead of the 4th Vindicate.

To be honest, if your meta isn't filled with non-basic hate (wastes/moons/B2B), 4c Landstill is easily the superior version (but that's the other thread for discussion :)) since Deeds does everything Vindicate does but better (except killing Planeswalker, which you have to counter). Garruk seems pretty good in UWg Landstill, but green doesn't offer much other than Grips and Loam. It's also another build worth exploring, but the black builds are definitely stronger with better wish targets and Vindicate.

[NQN]

I´ve once played against a random deck with Darksteel Forge and Nev.Disk and Darksteel Reactor and when he´s able to play them all I don´t stand a chance OMG where fucked up since we need solutions for all those nasty cards coming upon us :( [Cunning Wish -> Return to Dust still works. - Nihil]
Srsly, I´ve never saw a Garruk in front of me in an eternal tourney and the same goes for Ajani...

[Citrus-God]

I´ve once played against a random deck with Darksteel Forge and Nev.Disk and Darksteel Reactor and when he´s able to play them all I don´t stand a chance OMG where fucked up since we need solutions for all those nasty cards coming upon us :( [Cunning Wish -> Return to Dust still works. - Nihil]
Srsly, I´ve never saw a Garruk in front of me in an eternal tourney and the same goes for Ajani...

You could splash for a 4th color and just cast EE for 4. The requirements of doing this is almost minimal, really. Also, this let's you run other cards from the SB, like REB/Pyroblast, Krosan Grips, Pernicious Deeds, and other goodies. But I've also learned that the best ways to beat decks with Planeswalkers is to... you know... run Counterspell. Really. Once you start chaining card advantage of BS, Standstills, FoF and/or SDTs, you should be winning.

[NQN]

Meh, that should be an example of how stupid it is to try to have an answer for everything. It´s obvious that PWs are nuts against us, but since actually only a few players have noticed how awesome they are it´s not an issue at all.

grtz,
nqn

[FoolofaTook]

You could splash for a 4th color and just cast EE for 4. The requirements of doing this is almost minimal, really. Also, this let's you run other cards from the SB, like REB/Pyroblast, Krosan Grips, Pernicious Deeds, and other goodies. But I've also learned that the best ways to beat decks with Planeswalkers is to... you know... run Counterspell. Really. Once you start chaining card advantage of BS, Standstills, FoF and/or SDTs, you should be winning.

Splashing a 4th color for EE@4 creates another layer of vulnerability in the deck, this time to Moon effects and increased susceptibility to Back to Basics, Wasteland/Crucible, etc. 4c Landstill is much tougher to play at the moment than it was before the Stifle/Wasteland phenomenon began finding it's way into so many leading aggro-control competitors.

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

[Ectoplasm]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

[kroelai]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

I did not cry:wink:

[ebbitten]

Don't forget you can actually go for the throat and vindicate lands, along with throwing some wastelands around like a pro.
One time I was playing ANT and in the end all he had left was a snow-covered item, I played EOT brainstorm, ripped a vindicate and made him cry on his (completely empty) side of the table.

I've found this to be especially true with speedstill varients where you can actually have a chance at capitalizing on the tempo especially post board. Landstill may not be a tempo deck but if you can keep their lands off for long enough it does benefit from that "tempo".

[Taishaku]

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

I agree.

However, the non-specific nature of UWb Landstill can be dangerous. For instance, although Vindicate is an excellent Swiss Army Knife, it is not nearly as useful as more Sword effects in an aggro matchup; you can't hope they'll be color screwed every game.

[Taishaku]

@Jak.
Then don't name your deck after it. Unless you're a fan of naming decks like "Solidarity" or "Rabid Wombat." When you say Burning Landstill, I assume your deck revolves around Burning Wish, much like how Cunning Landstill makes a big deal about Cunning Wish.

"Going turn 3 Burning Wish--> turn 4 Firespout will win you the game against Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins..."

You do realize of course that you're pretty much announcing to your opponent that you intend to play Firespout, and that you are willing to sacrifice a turn where 1cc Engineered Explosives can safely clear Cursecatcher and Aether Vial? Also, if you're waiting until turn four to kill off the opponent's creatures, you might as well quit early. The key to stopping Merfolk and whatnot is to contain them early, killing their lords, shutting down their engines, etc.

Fire/Ice is the only burn card that can two for one in the manner described, unless we are talking about "AoE" type burn like Pyroclasm. And then, these only kill off weenie creatures. Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear. (On a sidenote, I typically run 4 Swords, 2 Path, 3 Wrath, 3 EE, with 2 Path, 4 BEB, and 1 Wrath in the sideboard; my metagame is very aggro.)

Quite honestly, you will be hard-pressed to find situations where you can announce to another control deck what you plan on doing the next turn at sorcery speed and actually do it. Doing a turn four Burning Wish for Telemin Performance generates a dead card unless you necessarily have more Force of Wills than they do Counterspell/Mana Leak/Negate and Force of Wills. Losing the counter war gambles away an open turn in a control matchup, and a control deck that has no options to react is a dead control deck.

All I see Burning Wish do is to provide options for game one silver bullets. Game two, it is simple to sideboard out Burning Wish for whatever silver bullet you want. But in the meanwhile, you are sacrificing speed for what looks on paper to be an easy win; perhaps you can read the flavor text of Mana Leak for my opinion on this.

[Roman Candle]

Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear.

He's got a point guys. Clearly we can't play white removal alongside Fire/Ice in our UWr control decks. Blasphemous.

[Jak]

@Jak.
Then don't name your deck after it. Unless you're a fan of naming decks like "Solidarity" or "Rabid Wombat." When you say Burning Landstill, I assume your deck revolves around Burning Wish, much like how Cunning Landstill makes a big deal about Cunning Wish.

"Going turn 3 Burning Wish--> turn 4 Firespout will win you the game against Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins..."

You do realize of course that you're pretty much announcing to your opponent that you intend to play Firespout, and that you are willing to sacrifice a turn where 1cc Engineered Explosives can safely clear Cursecatcher and Aether Vial? Also, if you're waiting until turn four to kill off the opponent's creatures, you might as well quit early. The key to stopping Merfolk and whatnot is to contain them early, killing their lords, shutting down their engines, etc.

Fire/Ice is the only burn card that can two for one in the manner described, unless we are talking about "AoE" type burn like Pyroclasm. And then, these only kill off weenie creatures. Your Flamespout and Fire/Ice are worthless against Tarmogoyf, which is in virtually every deck that plays green these days; Swords, Path, Wrath, and Vindicate are not. White/black is clearly superior to red in terms of removal because of creatures like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, and heck, even Werebear. (On a sidenote, I typically run 4 Swords, 2 Path, 3 Wrath, 3 EE, with 2 Path, 4 BEB, and 1 Wrath in the sideboard; my metagame is very aggro.)

Quite honestly, you will be hard-pressed to find situations where you can announce to another control deck what you plan on doing the next turn at sorcery speed and actually do it. Doing a turn four Burning Wish for Telemin Performance generates a dead card unless you necessarily have more Force of Wills than they do Counterspell/Mana Leak/Negate and Force of Wills. Losing the counter war gambles away an open turn in a control matchup, and a control deck that has no options to react is a dead control deck.

All I see Burning Wish do is to provide options for game one silver bullets. Game two, it is simple to sideboard out Burning Wish for whatever silver bullet you want. But in the meanwhile, you are sacrificing speed for what looks on paper to be an easy win; perhaps you can read the flavor text of Mana Leak for my opinion on this.

Wow, I can tell you didn't look at the decklist too hard. And wtf is up with you caring about the name. I don't even think I was the one that called it "Burning Landstill".

You do realize I had Wrath, Swords, EE, and Fire/Ice alongside those Burning Wish, right? I run just as much removal as most Landstill players. In place of 2 Decrees, I run Burning Wish. I actually have a stronger aggro MU than UWb because I run more efficient answers (ie Fire/Ice over Vindicate).

In your next paragraph, I don't even know what you are saying. I run Wrath, Swords, and EE. Wtf are you trying to get at? I could nitpick the UWb lists and say how Vindicate is horribly slow against Merfolk but would that be right? Every deck has weaker cards for some decks in their Maindeck.

You know what you could also do? Wait two turns, then cast Wish for Telemin. You have time against control. My list also more counters than the 4 Force and 4 Spell Snare lists I am seeing. I don't see why when you are going for the win that you would not wait.

Don't Burning Wish and Cunning Wish essentially have the same roles in the deck? They are those utility spells. You don't even need to SB them out since they still work well postboard.

[Taishaku]

@Roman Candle
Why run spells that cannot deal with one of the most common creature threats out there? Why not run all white/black removal? I mean heck, SMOTHER would work better than Fire/Ice when you need to handle Tarmogoyf or Kird Ape.

@Jak.
If you didn't call it Burning Landstill, then why did you answer me as if you did? Do you normally answer questions on the behalf of others? It would simplify things if you did not, as I typically do not dedicate time to memorizing who said what in this thread.

Where did I say you didn't run white removal? I simply said white is better to the point where red is an unnecessary splash, which is the crux of my argument. Yes, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate and red equivalent to white/black in matchups against "weenie" aggro, like Merfolk or Goblins. But Fire/Ice or Flamespout is pretty dead when you need to stop a Tarmogoyf or Threshold Werebear (or pretty much anything with more than 3 toughness).

But don't get me wrong, I think Fire/Ice is an excellent card; even if it is useless, you can at least tap the Tarmogoyf and dig for another answer. However, I do not think Fire/Ice and Burning Wish justify splashing red over black or even green.

And on yet another sidenote, I don't play UWb, but I do believe that UWb is the strongest traditional Standstill variant out there.

The more time you wait, the more time they have to prepare to stop a sorcery speed card. I mean, it is really easy to play around such a limited timeframe; it's not like Solidarity, where you have to keep on your toes. Anyway, you deserve to kill control decks with Performance if they're only running 4 Spell Snare and 4 Force of Will. But when they have Counterspells, having a 5 mana disadvantage is problematic. And if they run Vendillion Clique, you may never see that Performance again.

No. Cunning Wish is instant speed. It's like me saying: "Isn't Assault the same thing as Shock?" Control needs to keep options open whenever possible. Cunning Wish can find answers to threats during an opponent's turn and use them right away, all the while keeping their mana open during the main phase. Burning Wish cannot do this. It has to be played during your turn and leaves you rather vulnerable early on; its slot might be better used for additional removal or permission.

[Citrus-God]

Meh, that should be an example of how stupid it is to try to have an answer for everything. It´s obvious that PWs are nuts against us, but since actually only a few players have noticed how awesome they are it´s not an issue at all.

grtz,
nqn

Not really. It really is almost minimal. Look at this mana base

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island

2 Eternal Dragon

And in addition to that, running Counterspells. It's basically minimal effort when it comes to just having more diverse colors to cast EE.


Splashing a 4th color for EE@4 creates another layer of vulnerability in the deck, this time to Moon effects and increased susceptibility to Back to Basics, Wasteland/Crucible, etc. 4c Landstill is much tougher to play at the moment than it was before the Stifle/Wasteland phenomenon began finding it's way into so many leading aggro-control competitors.

One of the huge benefits of playing Landstill is that it's such a resilient deck. UWb Landstill is maybe the most resilient build in the archetype because it has access to so many non-specific removal cards and sweepers, and has easily available graveyard hate.

If anything, you are vulnerable to those cards not because you run 4 Basic lands, 6 fetchlands and 14 non basics, you're vulnerable to those cards because you're playing Landstill.

[Misplayer]

Wow Taishaku, you really have quite the crusade going against UWr builds. I think Burning Wish is viable, so does Jak. It sounds like he's tested it with success, whereas you continue to run out hypotheticals where it sucks, which as Jak pointed out, is pretty easy to do (and Vindicate is too slow in the Merfolk matchup).

Also, I think you're overvaluing instant speed. Wrath of God is sorcery speed and is worth it. Vindicate is sorcery speed. Permanents (EE, Elspeth, Disk) are sorcery speed and these cards all make the cut. Now I'll admit that Burning Wish is a mid-to-late game flex card and it's relatively weak early (mostly because the B.Wish targets I run are weak early). There are situations where you're put into topdeck mode late game because you've just spent your resources on creating a neutral board...err..Battlefield. You topdeck Vindicate and pass, or you topdeck Burning Wish -> Banefire/Performance and win.

The larger point is games 2/3 I'm packing 4 Spell Snare, 4 FoW, 2 Counterspell PLUS 3 REB, so yeah, Performance will probably get there in the control mirror. I think access to REB alone makes the splash worthwhile in the current metagame, Burning Wish is just a potentially flexible answer/finisher.

[Citrus-God]

lulz at Fire // Ice is better than Vindicate. Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when? And how removal doesnt keep Goblins at bay, it's keeping SCG and Ringleader off the table? How Vindicate actually destroys lands and Counterbalance?

Burning Wish is an interesting concept though. Although, one of the advantages to Cunning Wish in addition to being an instant is that it's casting cost is 3.

[rockout]

If you run Burning Wish, you can run REB. REB > Format.

[Jak]

@Roman Candle
Why run spells that cannot deal with one of the most common creature threats out there? Why not run all white/black removal? I mean heck, SMOTHER would work better than Fire/Ice when you need to handle Tarmogoyf or Kird Ape.

@Jak.
If you didn't call it Burning Landstill, then why did you answer me as if you did? Do you normally answer questions on the behalf of others? It would simplify things if you did not, as I typically do not dedicate time to memorizing who said what in this thread.

Where did I say you didn't run white removal? I simply said white is better to the point where red is an unnecessary splash, which is the crux of my argument. Yes, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate and red equivalent to white/black in matchups against "weenie" aggro, like Merfolk or Goblins. But Fire/Ice or Flamespout is pretty dead when you need to stop a Tarmogoyf or Threshold Werebear (or pretty much anything with more than 3 toughness).

But don't get me wrong, I think Fire/Ice is an excellent card; even if it is useless, you can at least tap the Tarmogoyf and dig for another answer. However, I do not think Fire/Ice and Burning Wish justify splashing red over black or even green.

And on yet another sidenote, I don't play UWb, but I do believe that UWb is the strongest traditional Standstill variant out there.

The more time you wait, the more time they have to prepare to stop a sorcery speed card. I mean, it is really easy to play around such a limited timeframe; it's not like Solidarity, where you have to keep on your toes. Anyway, you deserve to kill control decks with Performance if they're only running 4 Spell Snare and 4 Force of Will. But when they have Counterspells, having a 5 mana disadvantage is problematic. And if they run Vendillion Clique, you may never see that Performance again.

No. Cunning Wish is instant speed. It's like me saying: "Isn't Assault the same thing as Shock?" Control needs to keep options open whenever possible. Cunning Wish can find answers to threats during an opponent's turn and use them right away, all the while keeping their mana open during the main phase. Burning Wish cannot do this. It has to be played during your turn and leaves you rather vulnerable early on; its slot might be better used for additional removal or permission.

It shouldn't matter how much removal I don't have for Tarmogoyf. What should matter to you is how much a I do. You obviously don't understand this and continue to argue on. Fire/Ice is a great card. It provides a great tempo boost to get the deck into the late game. Saying it is horrible because it can't handle Tarmogoyf (which it can fog) is such a bad way to view a card. Using your method, Smother would be a horrible choice because the Tombstalker would ruin your day.

You are relying too much on the name. Do recent Landstill lists rely on Lands and Standstill as much as they once did? Why do we conitnue to call a deck Landstill when we run only 3 Mishra's Factory and 3 Standstill? Please stfu about naming.

Again, what do you have against red? I am not cutting white removal for it (except Vindiate). What is Flamespout? Do you mean Firespout? Well if you are saying I would Tutor for that with Wish, you are wrong. Wrath of God is also conveniently a Sorcery also. To go along with the 11 counters I run (4 Force, 4 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell) I have 4 Swords, 4 Fire/Ice, 3 EE, 2 Wrath, 1 Nev's Disk, and the 3 Burning Wish. I do not lack answers to Tarmogoyf so saying that my list will get into trouble more than a black splash build is wrong.

I don't get how now you are calling Fire/Ice a good card. I do think the two cards and SB Pyroblast are worth running right now.

You were talking about SBing out Burning Wish. I asked why I would do this. I wasn't comparing Instant speed to Sorcery speed, but you don't SB out Cunning Wish games 2 and 3, do you?

Anyway, you go back and forth a lot. Saying how instant speed is soooooo much better because you can keep your options open, and then telling me to run Vindicate? Why don't we run Rout over Wrath?

@Citrus
It is a new format. Tribal decks have sprung up everywhere and being able to two for one their mana elves, or get rid of an Adept and Cursecatcher, or just taking down a lord. Fire/Ice is pretty strong.

Those aren't the only concerns. Mana screwing could help, but only if they have an empty board (ie no Warchief, Lackey, Vial, and no real threat or swarm). You have to get there. Fire/Ice helps my build get me into the later parts of the game so I can Burning Wish for Firespout and just wipe their board. If necessary, I could Ice their land like you would Vindicate it for the tempo boost.

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth

4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords
4 Fire/Ice
3 EE
2 Wrath of God
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Burning Wish

SB
1 Wrath
1 Firespout
1 Newer Akroma's Vengeance
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Decree
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tidings
4 Pyroblast
2 ???

The SB isn't final and the wishboard could probably be trimmed but I have been loving it.

[Taishaku]

@Misplayer
Simply because something is tested and found viable does not mean it is necessarily better than pre-established performers. I am sure you can indeed run UWr like in the past, but we do know from precedent that UWr has been found lacking.

You know, it's funny you say Wrath is worth it, as people have been dropping Wrath from 3-color variants. But anyway, comparing Wrath or Vindicate to Burning Wish is like comparing apples and oranges; in fact, Burning Wish would actually be more like a cabbage, since it actually does not do anything in and of itself. Holding a Burning Wish in my hand until turn five or so does not sound appealing at all to me.

I do not think splashing red for Fire/Ice and Burning Wish is a worthwhile trade for access to Vindicate, Engineered Plague, and Extirpate; or Krosan Grip AND KAROO MEERKAT OR BLOATED TOAD (Hahaha... just kidding, though they do shut down Merfolk). REB maybe, because I will agree with you and say it is an awesome card.

@Citrus-God
Well, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate in some matchups; say when Goblins drop a Vial and 2 Lackeys on the next turn. But overall, I agree. Vindicate is the stronger card simply because of its utility. Whereas Vindicate is never a dead draw, Fire/Ice may well be.

"Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when?"

You know, I really was thinking the same thing. People talk of UWr as if it's new and untried. Back when I started playing Landstill, UWr was already deemed less consistent than UW, UWg, or UWb after Goblins stopped being the dominant aggro deck of the format.

I think the fact that it is an instant is fundamentally more important, as not every deck runs Spell Snare. (Though I guess ~50% do. xD)

@Jak.
Sure, you got four Swords. That's great. But when you're playing UG, you will quickly find out that Fire/Ice is just a single-target Fog.

I never said Fire/Ice was horrible. In fact, I distinctly said in the text you quoted that it is an "excellent" card. All I was trying to point out was that it is inferior to Swords in situations where you need to remove something bigger, Tarmogoyf being a prominent example. I would think Tarmogoyf is one of the most commonly played creatures out there these days.

You do know what "tempo" means, right? How does Fire/Ice "boost" your tempo? I think the term you want is "card advantage." Boosting your tempo means you are moving up your clock; that is, reducing the amount of turns necessary to achieve a result, such as checkmate (it is a chess term). Moving the opponent down his clock is not the same as moving up yours.

The tactic is retained by modern Landstill variants. It's simply that the initial shock has subsided and people now know not to let the tactic persist. And I still run a 4/4 mix.

I have nothing against red. Indeed, I am very fond of red; my very first deck, a Goblin deck I made in second grade, was red.

Hahaha, my bad, Firespout. I was thinking Flamebreak, which was used in another red deck during Mirrodin Standard.

You would get in more trouble. Having only 4 cards that can deal with Tarmogoyf when it hits the board within the first four turns is risky. Remember that Spell Snare is no guarantee with Vexing Shusher running around in Zoo decks.

You need to remove the idea that every good card is viable in a given deck that has those colors. I never said Fire/Ice was bad, just that it was not as good as alternative forms of removal.

Cunning Wish can stay because it is an Instant. Must I really explain how much different a sorcery is from an instant?

Vindicate is a Swiss Army Knife. I never said you cannot run sorceries whatsoever. I am simply stating that Burning Wish does not work because it is a sorcery that looks for another sorcery.

[mossivo1986]

I'd play that Rockout. 2 thumbs up.

As for me im still attempting to cut down to 61.

[rockout]

Then don't run fire/ice. I know I am not. I think it still sucks.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus
It is a new format. Tribal decks have sprung up everywhere and being able to two for one their mana elves, or get rid of an Adept and Cursecatcher, or just taking down a lord. Fire/Ice is pretty strong.

I'm still skeptical, but I'm not you, so I definitely wont argue with you about the validity of Fire // Ice since I'm mainly interested in Burning Wishes and REBs.


Those aren't the only concerns. Mana screwing could help, but only if they have an empty board (ie no Warchief, Lackey, Vial, and no real threat or swarm). You have to get there. Fire/Ice helps my build get me into the later parts of the game so I can Burning Wish for Firespout and just wipe their board. If necessary, I could Ice their land like you would Vindicate it for the tempo boost.

Fire // Ice is more likely to get you into the later parts of the game because it's a removal spell, not because Ice let's you steal Turn 2s, because in the long run removal is bound to be more redundant than tapping something down with Ice.



3 Burning Wish

SB
1 Wrath
1 Firespout
1 Newer Akroma's Vengeance
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Decree
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tidings
4 Pyroblast
2 ???

The SB isn't final and the wishboard could probably be trimmed but I have been loving it.

If Burning Wish is a win condition in addition to being utility, why aren't you running 4? Also, the Burning Wish needs Meltdown. Balancing Act would be interesting to test though. Also, Call the Skybreaker is an amazing win condition against control. Bribery should be ran over Telemin Performance.



@Citrus-God
Well, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate in some matchups; say when Goblins drop a Vial and 2 Lackeys on the next turn. But overall, I agree. Vindicate is the stronger card simply because of its utility. Whereas Vindicate is never a dead draw, Fire/Ice may well be.

To be honest, whatever Lackeys connect, you should only ever really be worried if they drop an SCG. As long as you're alive, you're still in the game. What I'm afraid of is AEther Vial and it's power to make mana in addition to making creatures uncounterable. That's absurdly powerful if you ask me and should be the reason why I would lose to Goblins. I lose games to AEther Vial, not Goblin Lackey. If anything, Vindicate destroys AEther Vials, which Fire // Ice does not do.


"Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when?"

You know, I really was thinking the same thing. People talk of UWr as if it's new and untried. Back when I started playing Landstill, UWr was already deemed less consistent than UW, UWg, or UWb after Goblins stopped being the dominant aggro deck of the format.

Back then, the concept of Landstill is to have card draw, lands and redundancy. It was basically monoblue control with removal instead of extra counters. Back then, it also ran FoF, which made sense back then due to said redundancy. So basically, Fire // Ice was just there to destroy Fanatics, Matrons, Lackeys, BoP and Mana elves. Also, back then, the only big creatures at the time were FtKs and Ravenous Baloths.

[Jak]

I'm still skeptical, but I'm not you, so I definitely wont argue with you about the validity of Fire // Ice since I'm mainly interested in Burning Wishes and REBs.

I won't say Fire/Ice is the most amazing card because most of the time, it doesn't hit amazing things. It does, however, let me get to my other amazing cards by hitting Birds or Noble Hierarch, take down a Dark Confidant, hit multiple Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. It does it's work well and gives me a cheap answer to the cheap threats that run around.


Fire // Ice is more likely to get you into the later parts of the game because it's a removal spell, not because Ice let's you steal Turn 2s, because in the long run removal is bound to be more redundant than tapping something down with Ice.

Yes, I was talking about using it as a removal spell.


If Burning Wish is a win condition in addition to being utility, why aren't you running 4? Also, the Burning Wish needs Meltdown. Balancing Act would be interesting to test though. Also, Call the Skybreaker is an amazing win condition against control. Bribery should be ran over Telemin Performance.

Because it is still slow. I don't need to draw it early. I like your ideas, but Telemin Performance decks the person if they don't have a creature. Landstill and combo become wins if it resolves. Bribery could be better all around though.


To be honest, whatever Lackeys connect, you should only ever really be worried if they drop an SCG. As long as you're alive, you're still in the game. What I'm afraid of is AEther Vial and it's power to make mana in addition to making creatures uncounterable. That's absurdly powerful if you ask me and should be the reason why I would lose to Goblins. I lose games to AEther Vial, not Goblin Lackey. If anything, Vindicate destroys AEther Vials, which Fire // Ice does not do.

I agree with this. It at least stalls and allows you to dig for an EE or Disk or Wish though (ie Ice it before it gets the third counter or something).

[Roman Candle]

SB
1 Wrath
1 Firespout
1 Newer Akroma's Vengeance
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Decree
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tidings
4 Pyroblast
2 ???


Have you thought about playing Gerrard's Wisdom as a lifegain slot? I wish there was better one-shot sorcery-speed lifegain, but meh.

[Taishaku]

@Citrus-God
I agree on Aether Vial being the dangerous part of Goblin Vial. Until the Vial is removed, your principal draw engine, Standstill, is useless.

I feel today, the concept of Landstill is STILL to have card advantage, land, and redundancy. And yeah, the old decks didn't have to deal with Tempo Thresh.

@Roman Candle
Feudkiller's Verdict? Gerrard's Wisdom can be very unreliable.

Anyhow, I'm personally surprised that Overmaster is not in Jak.'s SB. Then again, I'm not even sure if you guys have even seen it used before; it was used back in the day to provide Grim Lavamancer with some fodder while making sure you could drop whatever nasty red hate spell you wanted (Boil, Flashfires, etc). I don't like Burning Wish in Landstill, but meh, it's his experiment.

[Roman Candle]

@Roman Candle
Feudkiller's Verdict? Gerrard's Wisdom can be very unreliable.



Eh, possibly. But 6 mana is alot more than 4 mana in the matchups where you want lifegain. And an early Verdict often does more than 10 life, although at that point it's probably more or less redundant.

[Michael Keller]

Eh, possibly. But 6 mana is alot more than 4 mana in the matchups where you want lifegain.

I've always been a big advocate of Pulse of the Fields when it comes to life-gain in U/w or U/w/x Landstill variants. And now, with the removal of mana burn, it gets even better. Can't say I'm a fan of advocating Burning Wish, however.

That is, of course, if you seek life gain in the obvious bad match up.

[Jak]

I've always been a big advocate of Pulse of the Fields when it comes to life-gain in U/w or U/w/x Landstill variants. And now, with the removal of mana burn, it gets even better.

That is, of course, if you seek life gain in the obvious bad match up.

They are talking about a tutorable life gainer that is a sorcery so that you could grab it with Wish.

[Roman Candle]

I've always been a big advocate of Pulse of the Fields when it comes to life-gain in U/w or U/w/x Landstill variants. And now, with the removal of mana burn, it gets even better.

That is, of course, if you seek life gain in the obvious bad match up.

The debate was for the Burning Wish sideboard though.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Michael Keller]

I just mentioned not advocating Burning Wish in the previous post; you beat me to the edit. I was insinuating maintaining a board with classic options such as Pulse so you don't have to run a makeshift board tailored around Wish.

Landstill lists that tend to run Cunning Wish can enjoy the fruits of labor by being able to find an answer at the end of an opponent's turn. This inherently frees potentially critical mana open for your main phase to play key spells. Burning Wish, on the other hand, requires you to cast at least two spells in a single main phase; potentially leaving you shut out for counter magic and an even worse problem the following turn.

I'm not saying Burning Wish is a weaker choice; I'm simply stating if you have the available mana and don't mind using resources to play your spells, then go right ahead. It might be your best bet.

[GGoober]

My post a page earlier discussed a possible UWr with Fire//Ice and Braid of Fire as a 1-copy. The deal with UWr is that it gives you REB and Firespout, which are huge additions, but last week, I played in a tourney and have begun to think again about UWr v.s. UWb and here's what I found (refer to report a page earlier).

UWr is amazing against blue and swarm aggro than UWb. No doubt. But UWb is much more amazing against the weaker matchups. It still has a great aggro matchup (Landstill trumps aggro maybe except Merfolks) although the Merfolk matchup could benefit from REB as in UWr. But UWb Wish builds with 2 Extirpate is HUGE. I've won 2/3 games of testing game 1 against dredge. FOWed a PImp, Waste a land, he dropped another land and PImp and got going until I stalled off into Wish->Extirpate removing Ichorids and set EE@0 for bridges. Without Extirpate, many games simply could not have been won. And Extirpate is also key against the mirror, as you take out their factories/standstill, and in my testing against Dreadstill, take out their Goyf/Stifle so they're only left with 1 threat that is only trickbinable, saving all your 10+ removals against their possibly 2 threats. UWr does not benefit from the flexibility that black offers. Extirpate in Wish-build is really critical.

If I were to play UWr, I prefer to play with Cunning Wish even though Burning Wish has much more attractive options, but here's the deal, I mostly find myself wishing for Pulse and Return to Dust and Extirpate, so any of the sorceries would not benefit that much. Name me a recurrable sorcery that gains life as Pulse, not to mention Pulse gets incredibly broken post m10, putting this deck on another level fit to compete against the power creep of tribal decks. Merfolks can counter it, but any other tribal deck without counterspells loses to Pulse unless they bolt themselves. Even if you find a sorcery replacement for Pulse, it's not going to work, because if you've played Pulse, the instant speed matters in response to a lethal damage or if you're saving mana to counterspell and play Pulse if they don't play anything critical.

I suggest cutting Burning Wish if you do run UWr. Cunning Wish is so much better. Burning Wish falls under all these hate:
- BEB/Hydroblast
- Spell Snare
- Counterbalance, while Cunning Wish is much more resilient and the draw-go approach gives you more option. I think UWr with Cunning Wish is entirely possible, giving you to options such as Starstorm, Urza's Rage, Stroke of Genius, which I suggested using in synergy with Braid of Fire's insane mana to get card advantage. It's a win-more strategy though.

Although I have been trying to include a "Burning Wish" for flexibility of grabbing sorceries in the deck. However, this "Burning Wish" that I found was in fact Mystical Tutor, a one-off in the deck. It has not been a dead card the times I drew it. It won me 2 games against burn as I Mtutored for Wish into Pulse while countering the critical burns (PoP/Fireblasts). I won an unfavorable matchup otherwise. It also grabbed me a crucial Wrath against swarm aggro, and can always tutor up Vindicates/Decree and if you have nothing better, EOTFOFYL. It's been impressive, not to mention in my weaker matchups, I board in one of the two sideboarded cards (e.g. one of the 2 Extirpates in my board), therefore giving me a total of 4 ways to access the spell via MTutor, 1 Extirpate, 2 Wish. I think MTutor accomplishes more than Burning Wish would, and it fetches it at instant speed. I've played with 1 Enlightened Tutor for a long time, and I found that in the version I play now, it's speedier and ETutor does nothing but grabs EE/Humility, while MTutor has a much more diverse choice to fetch for (removal in Wrath/Vindicate, win-con in Decree, Cardadvantage via Wish/FoF).

I'll be picking up my build a page back again this week, to see if my results last week correspond again in this week's tourney. Await for a report again, or I might just pick up tempo thresh.

[Taishaku]

@Roman Candle, Hollywood, crz87, Jak.
I agree with Hollywood and crz87. Cunning Wish has huge advantages in its instant speed. Also, in this particular context, Pulse of the Fields is clearly better than any sorcery-based life gain spell.

But anyway... Gerrard's Wisdom is probably your best bet if you don't want the Feudkiller's Verdict. OR INVINCIBLE HYMN!!! (Just kidding.)

@crz87
I feel UWb is superior to UWr against swarm/weenie post-SB due to Engineered Plague.

[mossivo1986]

@Crz87

Cunning Wish> E. Tutor> Mystical Tutor>Intuition> Burning Wish.

If you notice its a spectrum. To the far left you have answers that have more generalized purposes to use against a variety of different board positions. To the right you have answers but they generally are in the form of narrow win coditions. So when they work, they work well; but when they do not the pilot suffers.

a. Would you rather have an inefficient answer that works all the time?
b. Or would you rather have an efficient threat thats spectrum is slightly worse?

Heres a hint: I choose A.

[GGoober]

EP is actually not as good as it used to be. You need multiples to shut a deck down, although to be honest, my plan against Swarm aggro is no longer EP but boarding in the 2 Paths in my SB. That ups the creature-hate to:
2 Path
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
2 Wrath
3 Vindicate

15 hate-cards against possibly 20 creatures, not to mention counterspell and card advantage off Standstill/Brainstorm/FoF.

This is more than enough, not to mention Cunning wishing for removal/Pulse. EP can slow them down a lot, but any green-based decks would bring in grips against you, so EP is just a delay, much like humility which stalls awhile but doesn't answer the board. What landstill really need is to sustain turns 1-3 with counterspell and StP, before landing bombs and drawing off FoF, cycling decrees and win. That's been the trend for me. I feel that I lose the matchups when I miss my 3rd or 4th land drop, even for 1 turn, because it reduces my odds to drop a bomb early and put them under pressure.

If you really sat down and think about it, as I have thought about the UWr Landstill (trust me, I'm still building it, but my own version of what I would call it Tempostill, running Stifles and Mox Diamonds, post list soon when I have results), all red REALLY offers is REB. Burning Wish and Firespout are just icing on the cake, and if you convince yourself as I convinced myself, UWb is better, not because of its colors, but because the black cards in Vindicate/Extirpate make the worse matchups so much better, it's definitely more important. Red improves the control and aggro matchup, which we already have a great matchup since aggro isn't a huge problem except for Merfolks, while control MU isn't bad since we aren't affected by counterbalance and we have more card advantage.


@Mossivo: How does ETutor have a larger spectrum than MTutor? that was my point of the post. ETutor grabs EE/Standstill/Humilty therefore grabbing Removal/card advantage while MTutor grabs Counters/FoF/Vindicate/Wish/Decree, making it MUCH more flexible since it grabs Removal/card advantage/win-con/tutors. I know this is unconventional since I've been playing with 1 ETutor for ages and since lists are beginning to drop Crucible, ETutor isn't justifiable in the MD. I've made the move to use 1 MTutor and it's worked out really well (at least in lists that run Vindicates). In the wishboard it's great but I prefer MTutor in the MD at the moment. I agree I would pick A, but currently, the argument is that MTutor satisfies A more than ETutor according to your arguement.

[mossivo1986]

EP is actually not as good as it used to be. You need multiples to shut a deck down, although to be honest, my plan against Swarm aggro is no longer EP but boarding in the 2 Paths in my SB. That ups the creature-hate to:
2 Path
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
2 Wrath
3 Vindicate
15 hate-cards against possibly 20 creatures, not to mention counterspell and card advantage off Standstill/Brainstorm/FoF.
This is more than enough, not to mention Cunning wishing for removal/Pulse.

Your lying to yourself if you think you can stop Merfolk with a shallow 15 forms of hate. It's not going to happen consistently. I've been running 11 pre plus adding 3 plague 3 path 1 shackles post board and the matchups is maybe 65-45 in my favor. Those arn't outstandsting numbers for throwing more removal to basicly play 18 removal spells to your 15. Try again.


EP can slow them down a lot, but any green-based decks would bring in grips against you, so EP is just a delay, much like humility which stalls awhile but doesn't answer the board.

I promise you no decks are boarding in 4x grip in from the board. Now if you want to talk about randomly getting blown from a grip, face it; it happens. Thats why you run multiples of good cards. Humility being the only exception as it doesnt get better with multiples; and you don't want to see a hand of 2x humility thus you run 1. Outside of this one instance plague is still strictly awesome. It knocks out the tribal matchups if left unanswered. It is one of the more poorly discussed cards in the thresh matchups. Quick pro Quo. Game one you see your opponent is tempo thresh, do you board in relic and or plague? Why or why not? Now read the following

You bring in both for obvious reasons. The deck runs 8 creatures. If you run snare and swords that should take card of od goyf. EE and plague and force should be cenetered around goose. Also note that relic hozes them both and a plague naming either one of the with relic going off kills either one of them; oh yeah then you net a card.

Plague is fantastic as well in the ichorid matchup; closing the window they have to beat you with. While your stp and paths kill their stupid ichorids and keep them off 3 creatures, plagues naming illusion and Horror will stop their shenanigans allowing you to clean up with ee for 0. GG noobsauce.


What landstill really need is to sustain turns 1-3 with counterspell and StP, before landing bombs and drawing off FoF, cycling decrees and win. That's been the trend for me.

If Landstill could reliably trust on counterspell as a proactive form of removal, stp to consistently be in your hand, for you to always draw that 1 of FOF and decree; then yes these would always be the way you want things to work.


I feel that I lose the matchups when I miss my 3rd or 4th land drop, even for 1 turn, because it reduces my odds to drop a bomb early and put them under pressure.


23 lands + 3 top + BS = $Smooth money$



ETutor grabs EE/Standstill/Humilty
and disk "making you inevitable with ruins" and Top which currently reads:

1. I have top - You don't = I win
2. I have top + you have top= I win because im landstill
3. I don't have top + you have top= Find top within several turns or rule one applies for you.

True story...



therefore grabbing Removal/card advantage while MTutor grabs Counters/
FoF/Vindicate/Wish/Decree, making it MUCH more flexible since it grabs Removal/card advantage/win-con/tutors.

If your running wish fof vindicate and decree in the same deck; your problems start at the Casting cost and not at the tutor slots.

Also Top> FOF all day long.


I know this is unconventional since I've been playing with 1 ETutor for ages and since lists are beginning to drop Crucible, ETutor isn't justifiable in the MD.

This isn't true but you need to be able to handle running tutor with the correct lineup of enchantments. Right now it's difficult because the tempo decks ala tempo thresh and merfolk as well as zoo and basicly anything countertop don't allow you enough time to tutor.

Mystical is just not neccecary. You don't need to tutor for fof unless your dead in the water; tutoring for decree is cool, but ultimately not necessary, vindicate shouldn't be played outside of a utility spell for the next level of land still. It doesn't solve enough to be an adequate answer outside a 2 of, especially post m10.


I've made the move to use 1 MTutor and it's worked out really well (at least in lists that run Vindicates). In the wishboard it's great but I prefer MTutor in the MD at the moment.

wish tutor and cate. . . I think we should respectfully disagree and move on.

[GGoober]

@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.

15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.

And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions. Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?


Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague. They only have 8 threats. If I were to board in, I'd go for EE@1 to kill Mongoose, and StP/Paths against Goyfs. Tempo Thresh's creatures aren't a problem to this deck. The mana denial is. I'm not sure if everyone on the Landstill threat would agree with me, but Path > EPlague against tempo thresh. Now, EPlage>Path against tribal aggro, but I mentioned earlier that Path is good enough since it's more flexible outside the non-tribal matchups and it's also wishable.


Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses. Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE. Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.


I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility. Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased. Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.


Mystical is just not neccecary. You don't need to tutor for fof unless your dead in the water; tutoring for decree is cool, but ultimately not necessary, vindicate shouldn't be played outside of a utility spell for the next level of land still. It doesn't solve enough to be an adequate answer outside a 2 of, especially post m10.

Actually I don't tutor for FoF if I'm dying. That doesn't save you since you'll be FoFing on your turn, and won't have enough to answer your threats. Let me break down my logic as to why I switched to MTutor after being a long-time fan of ETutor:

Against aggro (assuming you're on the losing end, i.e. not winning and just tutoring stuff to win more):
-ETutor can tutor up EE, which clears a portion of the board, ETutor can tutor up Disk, which takes another turn, ETutor can tutor up Humility, which still doesn't solve the aggro problem
-MTutor can tutor up Vindicate, which clears one threat, MTutor can tutor up Wrath which kills the board, MTutor can tutor Decree which cycles for blockers or drop a bunch of angels.

Note that in such scenarios, EOT MTutor gives a ONE-turn answer to the board, as compared to ETutor. Not to mention that MTutor also has that flexibility to tutor up Wish which tutors up more stuff IF you're really that desperate, but the truth is, your sorcs/instants should be enough to deal with the problem on that turn, unless you're playing against some random janky enchantment deck that Wrath nor Vindicate does anything, for which Etutor can tutor up EE which doesn't blow up the whole board either.

Now assuming you're stabilizing
Then MTutor still does what it does by clearing the board, and ETutor can stall for a few turns. This is where ETutor shines a little where you land Humility if you're not under instant threat. And then play out Standstill/Elspeth to lock the game down. However, in such a case, MTutor can do equivalent deals by clearing the board and giving you more time or dig for a FoF which can give you much advantage for the next few turns

Assuming that you're winning
Then MTutor/ETutor are both not needed. ETutor shines since you can tutor up Standstill to lock the game, while MTutor tutors up for Wish/FoF, still giving you some advantage, or just grab that decree and save yourself some turns.

My reasons for changing the 1ETutor to 1MTutor is because I found Disk + ruins to be too slow. In fact, if you're relying on that synergy, then you're too much in a comfort zone and won't be playing the deck as well. Part of playing the deck is to be humble, and know that although you're in control, you can lose control of the game if you're overconfident. I've loved Speedstill lists but I found it to be too anti-aggro oriented. I conjured my list of a slower speedstill, hybrid with Wishstill and it's been working great. ETutor now loses some target, and I've gained much more targets with MTutor.

Also, moss, I don't know how you play Landstill but there are many times where I intentionally don't counter spells, take extra damage just to force my opponents into over-extending for a quick win and EE/Wrath their board. It's situational and dependent on the hand. When my hands are confident, I'll save the spells for critical uses. E.g. why counter a goyf when you have an StP and can keep mana open for the next threat? Save that counter against other threats (assuming you know the other deck well). Landstill isn't a stupid Type 2 deck where you counter and answer all threats one for one. You need to let some through, and blow them up when they hit the board, and try to reset the board and hand in your favor. At least, that's the beauty I find with this deck: Hitting the 4th land drop.

I would probably add Top back in the list, playing 2 Tops, 3 BS since Top is far too good to not be included. I'm trying out my previous list though. But 2Tops 3 BS would be my more optimized list, as it has been before. For reference again, here's my list that I got 1st/2nd split last weekend:




http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=357881&postcount=2255

[mossivo1986]

@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.

Look I don't have to tell you that Merfolk is the current Tribe to beat. Zoo, although relivent looses and wins based on it's board position and not it's cards "This is regarding wish builds as wish to pulse ends the game with a clear board."

Goblins is irrelivent right now. The matchups already solid and I can't name a time when I fealt more comfortable with them other then when I played 4c with himility and wish splash. These matchups are solved with Path to exile as you mentioned.

Merfolk is a deck you NEED to be beating or you probobly shouldn't play said model of landstill because your almost gaurenteed to be facing it atleast once at the bottom or top tables, and as it's doing really well I would assume the top ones. Your not going to dodge it as frequently as say ant.


15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.


There is no such thing as a "Usual aggro deck." You also know this.

There are simply far too many flavor's to establish an average creature count that your going to run into.

Also removal isn't "hate cards." Path to exile is a generalized removal spell that happens to be fantastic. In that same instance Engineered plague is a tribal removal spell, alittle more finely tuned but it's universally good against a variety of different arch types.


And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions.



Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?

I didn't say that. What I meant if you misunderstould is what I said at the top of this post as well. It's the most important. I wouldn't play landstill if I couldn't beat it because it is such a beating without he proper technology. You have to be able to beat either Ant or Merfolk with some consistency. If you can't then it's not worth losing to both because your going to run into them even in small local sized events.



Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague.

Top does marvelous things.



Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses.

Plague isn't slow against ichorid. You can stall Ichorid consistently enough to prevent them from auto winning. Past that point it's your card selection that will win you said game. Plague just happens to soft lock ichorid when combined with a second one or humility.


Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE.

You can't rely on relic to save you against ichorid. Thats what ichorid preys on. You need to take advantage of the obvious. They Mull themselves... Alot. You need to design your gameplan around winning the whole game instead of thinking "Did I get this, or that." If you think that way then ichorid autowins you based on needle your anser and then win 2 turns later.

Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.

you can tell me how plague is slow, and how it isn't it; but you can't tell me how it's actually bad. Obviously life would be easier if we could all run 4 ofs of ee pate and relic with infinate force of will backup;however this is not the case. Your argument needs to be tuned around why EP doesn't work, or around a more effective solution for those three slots. Until then your just crying about a matchup you haven't tested enough or you simply just can't beat it with your current landstill model.


I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility.

You dropped top in favor of wish + FOF + Vindicate. This slows you down not time line wise, but interactive-wise. Your slowing your overall deck down.

Let me tell you alittle story:A long long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.
Nevermind with that.

I played landstill in GP Chicago. For referance check out the tourney report. Now I did well but I had alot of draws. Though this wasn't do to top being slow, but card quality being not optimal. It happens alot in landstill. I was using ponder (wasn't necessary in landstill. Simply put the wrong choice.) I was using an incorrect sideboard as well which didn't help things AT all. I should have used path to exile (would have won me multiple games much easier) I also didn't have enough fetches. 4 is simply not enough and 22 lands wasn't correct either. With all of these small issues my model had still managed to get me just inches from day 2.

Also note that it was my first Major "over 200" event with Legacy and the speed of the game was never an issue with opponents or myself. Top was not the problem, my card quality was the problem. So if your finding that Top is dragging you down, then play the deck more. Function with the interactions and write your damn top 3 down or something. I happen to have an excellent memory. I generally can remember three cards when I see them.


Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased.

Disk + Ruins is cute; but disk + elspeth is incredible. I beat merfolk preboard last night with that little ditty. Fun times.


Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.

Wish does everything vindicate can do, but better for 1-2 mana as you've already found out. Theres no reason to use vindicate unless you have a utility slot. I happen to use relic in my 1 of. This could easily be replaced by wish. You simply don't want more then 2 wish in your landstill model unless your wish dependant.

Ill answer the other stuff later. I dont really have the time to talk about it. But to simplfy it.

I wouldn't run either tutor main currently. I really like the flexibility of e tutor in the sideboard.

[gustha]

Glad to see you resolved in favour of the 3 EE + 1 disk argument! (aboslutely rocks...). (And BTW, sorry if I didn't reply to your PM, but the work absorbed me completely, I've got just a few minutes to write this post). Finished 6th a small tournament (23-25 people, didn't count...), but I could have done better. I tried the speedstill approach:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [A] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Round1: DStompy
G1: I kept a slow hand and forced a t1 chalice@1 which I could have let resolve (having force backup and elspeth). He plays a morphed creature and I didn't find one of my 7 swords. I didn't care because I thought it was gathan riders: turn out it was his singleton copy of red akroma...
Side: -1 snare -1 standstill +1 EE +1 KFinks
G2: The deck worked as it must. I let a RPD and a mauler resolve, kill the dragon and kept the board with elspeth. Finks + mishra finished him off while I wiped away his creatures.
G3: notes say he concedes at 16 and me 18. Must have been in a far superior board position.
1-0

Round2: my teammate with burn
I lost g1 due to burn being burn. I opened godhands the other games, and 2 finks + elspeth won me the race.
Side: -2EE -3 vindicate -1 path + 4 sculler +1 jace +1Kfinks

Round4: UGr dreadstill
Not a difficult MU, 7 MD swords help a lot... Top won me the match all day long.

Round5-6: ID

Top8: won the first and mulled hard and seen nothing, my only 2 fetches incurred in stifle. Losing can happen, but not even playing is annoying.

The deck was overall pretty consistent, I mulled only once in the swiss, and hard in the top against my nemesis (when I play with him, I mull no matter what I'm playing; once he beat me with belcher, I mulled to 4-5 every game, seems like he casts a curse on my draws...nevermind...). The only thing I "complain" is that I didn't side so many cards, the deck seems quite balanced as it is. Kitchen finks is a solid card, and most of all totally unexpected. A good body for an attacker, gains us 2-6 life (with a stp), prevents the oppo from attacking quite often, etc. The only complain is that it can't produce soldier tokens in eot! :tongue: I chose to insert 2 counterspell, I prefer having at least 10 counters. (-1 sstill -1 vindicate in regards of kalus' list). instead of 4 relics / 2 jace I preferred adding more versatility with a +1 cruclibe and a +1 EE. Still to test it intensively, but quite in my playstyle.

[Taishaku]

@mossivo1986
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of tutors. I agree with your assessment on Engineered Plague as well. It stops Ichorid cold and unless they splash white for Vindicate, it's really tough to remove.

I run 3 Krosan Grips from the SB. I can add in one more just to contradict your promise. ^^

And yeah, Goblins are sort of easy prepared for simply by preparing for Zoo.


I personally don't think you would need 3 Sensei's Divining Top AND 3 Brainstorm. I mean, the former sort of eliminates the need for the other beyond 1cc. Also, isn't the amount of card quality over card advantage draw spells that you have a bit unwieldy? Why not 6 of Standstill or Jace Beleran or Fact or Fiction, 5 of Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top? You can cut the odd Relic of Progenitus for that 6th card advantage draw spell. (Can you even dig through your deck fast enough to find it in a pinch?)

@crz87
To be honest, Vindicate can be a tough sell against Merfolk, since it leaves you open to an unfriendly Standstill.

Anyhow, this is my maindeck mix:
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
3 Wrath of God

But the key is to try to get the Humility down. I might even put a third one in the SB.

Anyhow, how is Engineered Plague too slow for Ichorid? It's not as if they kill you on turn three. And why would we be using Engineered Plague against Tempo Threshold? Oo"

[ultimoman]

Happy 4th of July UWb Wish Still lovers. And with this great holiday I present my update.

Lands: 23

4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

No major changes except the removal of Tolaria West and the Addition of Polluted delta. This was done for a variety of specified reasons, but the major reason is 22 land with tolaria west is not 23 lands. I've played with Tolaria West long enough with all different kinds of assortments and sometimes its been amazing, sometimes it's been not so amazing. One thing is absolutely for sure. I cannot risk having my t2,t3, or t4 lands comming into play tapped. Simply put it puts me too far behind in games. If I draw a land I better be able to play it and use it. Nuff said.

Draw:10


3 [OD] Standstill
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

No changes from the last couple of lists. You know your model is sweetness when your draw package alone wins you 40-60% of your games.

Permission:10


1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [IA] Counterspell

Knowing the current metagame and the ammount of viable decks currently played at the top tables counter spell has proven its worth. I need it to counter cards like intuition, FOF, random stuff as Vendillion is getting weaker and weaker do to the meta-game shifting because of the new rules set ect. It is in this theory that I still want to keep my counter package strong, but also allow for win conditions to randomly appear and win games from out of nowhere. Counter spell is not always good. Vendillion clique is not always an effective flyerl; combined they not only have synergy together but also drag out the permission of opposing aggro control and control models. Also the fourth spell snare got cut in favor of a bit more consistency.

[B]Removal:

4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility

No Changes.

Win Con's:

2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

Only changes here are -1 clique. Not anything substancial. The additional permission is going to help me out with resolving and mantaining elspeth.

Utility:4

1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Pretty self explanatory sideboard.


Very similar to mine which is nice to see, although I don't use Crucible (maybe I should? I'm still using the Shackles). I'm still using 4 SS though and am quite surprised you went down to 3. Was it just not versatile enough?

[rsaunder]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't anyone running wing shards in the board as a wish target? I haven't tested it enough to call it definitively "good" or "bad" (it takes forever to test out a wish board slot, as I'm sure you guys know) but it's come in handy a few times. I've used it to get rid of a progenitus through force backup a couple times and even just wishing for it and holding it in your hand can buy you a few turns against aggro-control. Right now I have it in Mossivo's relic slot (and a second humility in place of the crucible, but the other 13 are identical.)

@Mossivo: 61 cards with 23 lands? I always look at my 24th (west) as more of a tutor/utility card than a land drop save for in emergencies. And is disk really worth it as a 1-of*?

*yes, cunning wish=>e.tutor=>disk. but thats hella clunky

[Mark Sun]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't anyone running wing shards in the board as a wish target? I haven't tested it enough to call it definitively "good" or "bad" (it takes forever to test out a wish board slot, as I'm sure you guys know) but it's come in handy a few times. I've used it to get rid of a progenitus through force backup a couple times and even just wishing for it and holding it in your hand can buy you a few turns against aggro-control. Right now I have it in Mossivo's relic slot (and a second humility in place of the crucible, but the other 13 are identical.)

@Mossivo: 61 cards with 23 lands? I always look at my 24th (west) as more of a tutor/utility card than a land drop save for in emergencies. And is disk really worth it as a 1-of*?

*yes, cunning wish=>e.tutor=>disk. but thats hella clunky

West is great unless it has to be one of your first few land drops. What are the chances? I don't know, but regardless, it's unideal. I replaced Dust Bowl/Tolaria West with 2x Wasteland in my list...

I do like the idea of Wing Shards, actually, and is one of the cards that I just have laying in a box somewhere. I'm also curious about the Disk.


[Edit] Oh, and I should add.

I've been really, really considering reverting (I think that's the right word given the conditions) from 3x SDT ---> 1x Brainstorm/2x FoF. Something is just not working right for me.

[GGoober]

Lol Morbid. i've been doing the same too. Depending on the meta, SDT maybe too slow. But man is it good and made for landstill. I'm currently running:
3 Brainstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF

Might drop a Standstill for the 2nd Jace if Vialdecks are common tomorrow. SDT really shines against Land-D decks, and also decks with moon-effects, and it's good for a longer-mid-range game e.g. against Deadguy/Suicide. It's not too good against fast aggro since you're tight on your mana and need to find answers fast.

SDT + Jace is pretty retarded though. So if you run SDT, you have to find a spot for Jace to make it work even better :)

[Mark Sun]

Lol Morbid. i've been doing the same too. Depending on the meta, SDT maybe too slow. But man is it good and made for landstill. I'm currently running:
3 Brainstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF

Might drop a Standstill for the 2nd Jace if Vialdecks are common tomorrow. SDT really shines against Land-D decks, and also decks with moon-effects, and it's good for a longer-mid-range game e.g. against Deadguy/Suicide. It's not too good against fast aggro since you're tight on your mana and need to find answers fast.

SDT + Jace is pretty retarded though. So if you run SDT, you have to find a spot for Jace to make it work even better :)

Yeah, I understand. That's one thing I really, really like about SDT when I came back to this game, I knew they were around when I ran UW Landstill circa 2005-ish, but didn't bother to run them. Adding 3 has freed up some of the constraints in this deck.

Gah, basically just means more testing, which I'm not really opposed to.

[rsaunder]

The role of west in my version is a tutor or emergency land; it would be a non-land card in mossivo's list. Of course it's the last one in my deck I would choose to draw if I needed mana.

A couple of other points in my thought process that I'm not sure are right:

I look at it as dust bowl#2, ruins #2, factory#4, and mana source #23.5.

Cutting it for another business spell is possible, but I don't think running dust bowl and ruins is worthwhile at that point; they're untutorable one-ofs that work only in certain situations.

Running land#24 lets me feel more comfortable running 2 SDT and 3 brainstorm, upping standstill to 4. That gives me a nice even split between card quality and card advantage, as well as 20 blue cards to pitch to FOW.



Against this train of thought

In testing, I've only played it as a land a few times. Would it be better as a business spell with dust bowl cut for ruins#2? That's what it turns into most of the time.

Mossivo's build gets two more slots than mine. This ends up being quite the advantage, though even if I cut it I'll probably still just run 60 total.

Sorry, just kinda thinking out loud right now. I've been on the fence with this choice for so long because there are a few other slots contingent on its inclusion or exclusion.

[mossivo1986]

Tolaria west is an excellent card. Don't get me wrong if the format were a bit slower i'd probobly re-add it. Unfortunately it cost's six mana to ee for 1 and this is the main selling point for not running it. I'd rather run a more efficient land and preserve my landbase then worry about some random tutor that doubles as half a land drop. Consistency is the key here and really I still see academy ruin's constantly and dust bowl enough to warrant not playing it.

The random relic follows suit as the last two did. The biggest difference between the old list and the new list is that i'm sacrificing some of the extremely efficient meta-planning answers to answer the entire legacy format ie running mid-late game answers like counterspell and disk. Disk isn't the usual cunning wish target fyi. Disk is your random if you don't kill me next turn i'm resetting everything with x ammount of lands and a solid hand in play. So watch out card obviously. Disk shines with EE and elspeth creating gamestates that feel like your cheating.

Disk+Elspeth's Final = disk EVERY turn + Indestructable infinate 1/1 soldiers that make the game end very quickly. Also to note standstill over a disk with elspeth in play reads: Your dying anyways, but if you want to give me the for sure go ahead win please play a spell. Elspeths final also allows humility to become indestrcutable and top so if you randomly use disk nothing on your side gets taken away from you.

It is with all this and that disk has allowed me to regain what was lost in the merfolk matchup pre-board that I tell you that Geoff,Gustha,Rockout are all correct with their assesments. Disk is not only retarded but the next removal of choice. Disk to me feels like when you play ITF and they use Etched oracle with ruin's (Except more unfair as disk has more synergy then just drawing more cards.)

[rockout]

I prefer indestructible Humility over Disk, however, disk has really been shining in the past month of testing. If you feel comfortable running more than one do so, otherwise 1 should be plenty.

[GGoober]

moss, I've played Disk/ETutor + Elspeth before and honestly, it was win-more. The times where I got Disk out alone, I've reset the board and proceeded to win. Times where I got Elspeth out, either she was removed or I won in the end since there's no other decks in Legacy that can really deal with planeswalkers other than Vindicates. And if I did get Elspeth out to 8 counters, it's already a lost game for the opponent. I think from my previous testings (huge fan of disk simply because it's a board setter) that Disk + Elspeth is a little too slow. The justification for running Disk isn't to recur that cute trick because it is an amazing synergy, but the games you actually get to do that, out of all the games you play, are not too frequent. They would have an answer to Disk or Elspeth and before she hits up to 8, they would also have an answer to Disk or Elspeth.

Disk is one of those MD slots that I'm taking in/out depending on my meta. If there's a ton of affinity/Enchantress, Disk goes in! Disk destroyed a game of affinity right before he could swing in for lethal. I doubt that Elspeth + Disk trick could get online against affinity at any point since they're so fast, but Disk itself can get it there. My main point to say is that if you run Disk, run it because it's a good card against the meta, not because it has cute tricks with Elspeth. That's a bonus, but it doesn't come up too often unless your meta is slow, but that means they have time to dig for answers as well, or you should try to win faster.


Here's the list I'm playing today, report will follow soon:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Undeground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divning Top
4 Standstill (or 3 Standstill + 1 Fact or Fiction if there're too many vial decks)
1 Jace Beleren

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God (or 2 Vindicate, 2 Wrath depending on aggro meta: swarm v.s. less-threat density)
1 Humility

1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields (maybe 2 if meta is burn/goyf sligh heavy so MTutor grabs one in the MD as well, giving it a potential 4-copy)
2 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Negate
2 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus

[mossivo1986]

I said the same damn thing. Yet here I am playing it. Check a couple of pages back.

[Ectoplasm]

Just want to echo that Disk is cool, it's the ultimate fire & forget card

[mossivo1986]

Wrath Child from Salvation hooked me up with this. Check it out:

Fira Powa (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4045003#post4045003)

Man do I love winning with Chicks with swords.

[NQN]

Did he explain how to do those banners? I´d like to have one myself but with some other cards.

[rockSTAR]

Photoshop

[rockout]

You can get Photoshop 7.0 just about anywhere. It's probably one of the most easily cracked programs out there besides microsoft office.

[GGoober]

I came back on Sunday, not making to the Top4 due to getting paired down and losing to Goblins game 1. I should not have lost that MU simply due to all the aggro hate cards not to mention BEBs. What happened was: All 3 games, I drew no removal, and got nothing through digging with Standstills/SDT/Brainstorm. It was frustrating as hell. Game 2 I resolved a critical Humility right before I was going to die and stabilized with Pulse and won. Game 3, I drew zero white sources (he didn't waste any Tundras either). I had 7 lands out with zero white sources after shuffling and Brainstorming, i.e. I drew 2 Factories, 2 Seas, 2 Island, 1 Ruins and my hand had 2 Wrath, 3 StPs waiting to rape his army of goblins.

It was sad losing to goblins. I beat all my other aggro matchups (Zoo, LD, RGB aggro). If you're worried about an aggro-infested meta, Landstill's the deck for you. Landstill is perhaps THE BEST deck against Zoo. It's just so nice that EE kills all but Goyfs and Thoctar and you have Spell Snares for Goyfs, and Vindicate/StP for everything else. SB 2-3 Paths and 2-3 REB and the matchup becomes laughable. Decree was MVP all day, and builds without Crucible in the MD seems better.

Here's an interesting option for people to consider in a Land-destruction heavy meta. My meta last sunday consisted of:
Goblins (Wastes/Ports)
Team America
Deadguy
BG Land-destruction deck

I made the curious decision of SBing 2 Teferi's Response. I've always loved the card and just wanted to play it for the sake of playing it. And it turns out to be simply amazing 3for1 card in a land destruction heavy meta. I would recommend not running it at all, but I wanted to mention for people having trouble stabilizing the manabase against Tempo Thresh/TA, Deadguy/Eva, Teferi's Response is a really nice card to have, and it saves you against much of the tempo loss from their land destruction. It's a card that's so specific that it doesn't make the cut at all in SB, but that's just a card I tested this weekend against a LD heavy meta and it was GOLDEN rofl. People who first saw the card were like: WTF, who plays this? This card is stupid! I got 3 for 1ed :P

[mossivo1986]

I came back on Sunday, not making to the Top4 due to getting paired down and losing to Goblins game 1.


Congrats on the T8. Also note: I get paired down every single time I go to my local store. It's happened randomly every time I go there for the past I want to say 3 months. I've actually seen 2 pairings happen, it's weird.



I should not have lost that MU simply due to all the aggro hate cards not to mention BEBs.

Goblins can win even if you have a decent hand. It appears as though you had a poor hand. This should be no suprise. Also your land-base is much harder for you to fill as you run both wish and vindicate. It's as if you can't run your model without white from the beginning with this in mind, maybe you should have mull'd hands against gobbos; or I dunno played Engineered Plague? :)


What happened was: All 3 games, I drew no removal, and got nothing through digging with Standstills/SDT/Brainstorm.

Interesting, then your hand must have been excetionally white based for you couldn't play any of your removal. Another reason why disk may be good is that it does absolutely destroy specificly goblins and d stompy apart.


It was frustrating as hell.
I can imagine.


Game 2 I resolved a critical Humility right before I was going to die and stabilized with Pulse and won.

Thats how you do-er.


Game 3, I drew zero white sources (he didn't waste any Tundras either). I had 7 lands out with zero white sources after shuffling and Brainstorming, i.e. I drew 2 Factories, 2 Seas, 2 Island, 1 Ruins and my hand had 2 Wrath, 3 StPs waiting to rape his army of goblins.
Which means you took a game 3 with no white sources in your opener but many different single and double cc white cards. You don't take chances in game three. You take them in game 2 after your 1-0 (you shouldn't be playing 3 games but if you do, then :)) haha anyways A mulligan on that hand was the correct call regardless of how you fealt. This is where that 6-7 fetch rule comes in handy also.

[rockout]

It's Ok to take risks in game 1 as well, not just when you are up 1-0.

[mossivo1986]

I disagree. I tend to not take risks game 1, but in game 2 i'll throw something in that I might not normally do. Thats how I found out that EP was actually amazing in the thrash matchup for my model. Who'd a thunk.

[GGoober]

Game 3, I kept a strong hand in fact. It had 1 Island, Standstill, FOW, Factory, Factory, Sea, BS. I FOWed turn 1 Lackey (he was on the play) and I played a land but he dropped vial so Standstill was dead. I had the feeling that this was going to happen but I REALLY NEED to FOW Lackey instead of vial since I had no StP/BEB and I can't block with factory if he went first. I'm not risking a Siege-Gang on turn 1, so I thought it was the right play. Against Vial, I have 3 EE and with ALL that goblin hate cards in game 3, I figured I'd destroy him. Ended up drawing multiple StP/Wrath but not a single white. I do agree that I should revert back to 1 Disk/1 Wrath split instead of 2 Wrath. Wrath sometimes annoy the hell out of me. I've always been a Disk fan since I played MUC heavily before upgrading to Landstill, which is better at handling swarm aggo (MUC is amazing against Thresh and threat-light decks with Shackles but sucks bad against swarm e.g. Goblins).

And ALSO, I used EE once in 3 games, and the games dragged for more than 10+ turns. It was depressing how I drew nothing, and I was using Top+Fetches to dig further. Other aggro games later on were smooth, and played out the way Landstill was supposed to.

My newest list would probably include 1 Disk and 2 Ruins. Possibly no wastelands/dustbowl depending on the meta. If there's folks/manlands/dreadstill then Wasteland is needed, but this is something that I noticed: if you're playing no Crucible MD, then Dustbowl >>Wasteland simply because you can keep reusing its effect without a Crucible. This is where Tolaria West is a good card if you're not running Crucible since it can grab you the lone Dustbowl. But I've disliked Tolaria West since it's usually too slow.

@Moss: EP is a little too narrow in my meta. It answers goblins, and I've yet to test it against Ichorid. I think it slows Ichorid down, but not much unless you get double EP, which would be golden. What shines against Ichorid is Extirpate and aggressive mulligan and wastelands/vindicate to keep them off their land, slowing the dredging since they can no longer rely on their spells to dredge, and you force them to dredge and overextend. Furthermore, the newer Ichorid lists board in Greater Gargadon, which EP fails to resolve the problem since Gargadon ignores EP and can attack from multiple directions, giving the deck a headache. From testing, one just needs to counter inital discard outlets, hopefully disrupt their manabase (this is usually not common, but would be huge) and then stalling with EE until you find Extirpate to seal the deal. Pithing Needle on EE is a bitch although in Vindcate builds, you have another out. I've found that 2-3 Paths instead of 2-3 EP is much better since it answers threat-light decks such as Thresh and Team America, and it destroys Zoo. EP is great against Merfolks and Goblins and Elves, much better than Path, and my meta isn't infested with them, which I am glad so I choose 2-3 Paths instead.

[Tinefol]

I've finished top4 in the $1.5k invitational, losing to Train Wreck in semis', with the following list:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ARE] Plains
3 [P2] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Walkers
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

While the deck worked fine, there are a few observations: Tolaria West is too slow to matter when you need to tutor something, and merely a win-more if you're upper hand. The only match where I found it useful, was, surprisingly, one, where I got Choke'd (yeah, it was my blue source). Also I couldn't justify running Crucible, it just doesn't seem useful enough in my meta to be maindecked. Out of 7 matches, I've S/Bed Wrath of God five times --> looks like maindeck material.

Played Team Legacy Trios two days ago, and as Plagues were used by my teammate, I've opted for a green splash, adjusting the deck slightly:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ARE] Plains
3 [P2] Island
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah

// Walkers
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [R] Wrath of God

I've literally brought my team into top2 split with 6 straight wins (12-1 by games).
Garruk never worked the way I wanted it to. Under Humility its worse than Elspeth, though the untap ability is handy. As a general rule, you shouldn't play double costed spells of your splash color in this deck. Puts too many restrains on your manabase. So I'd play Decree instead of Garruk. Another concern is that I had to move out 1 Spell Snare to S/B (not enough slots maindeck :x) and in 5 matches out of 6 I had to bring it back. So 4 snares is must have. Other than that, deck worked marvelously.

[jazzykat]

A strange thought, does this deck have trouble against burn? If you don't have CB you would theoretically have a pile of dead cards in spot removal. If you do play anjani then living to drop it is obviously the nut high but otherwise?

[Mark Sun]

A strange thought, does this deck have trouble against burn? If you don't have CB you would theoretically have a pile of dead cards in spot removal. If you do play anjani then living to drop it is obviously the nut high but otherwise?

You might lose the first game, after you SB in Pulse/Negates, it just becomes funny.

[Tinefol]

You are most likely to lose game 1 to burn, unless you get ton of counters and a fast clock (elspeth).

Personally, I devote 3 straight S/B spots against burn in form of 1 Aegis/2 COP: Red, one tutor to search for these (and any other S/B cards), and from 2 to 4 Blue Blasts. Basically, you need to survive till you get COP or Aegis online.

[Mark Sun]

You are most likely to lose game 1 to burn, unless you get ton of counters and a fast clock (elspeth).

Personally, I devote 3 straight S/B spots against burn in form of 1 Aegis/2 COP: Red, one tutor to search for these (and any other S/B cards), and from 2 to 4 Blue Blasts. Basically, you need to survive till you get COP or Aegis online.

Don't you think the Aegis/COP take up crucial spots on your SB? Personally, having Negates (or BEB/Hydroblast) in with Pulse is more effective, and more versatile. Plus, the enchantments are a little overkill. You shouldn't *need* to play them post SB.

I did use to play with 2x Aegis pre-Wishboard adjustment though.

[Tinefol]

I simply don't run Cunning Wish. Besides, Burn is one of these generally bad match ups that are easiliy fixed by sideboard, so its better be safe than sorry.

The real problem I have are paranoid Merfolk players in my meta, who run Annul and Spellstutter Sprites maindeck (along with FoW, Daze and the damned Cursecatchers). That kind of setup makes the match up slightly unfavourable, and I just have no idea on what to run in s/b against it. Plague works, but only if you stick it early enough and if there are no lords, which is hard. Any ideas?

[ultimoman]

Instead of Negate, I've been using Counterbalance. I have to do more testing, but I imagine its strictly better against burn in the long run, as well as other matchups.

[jazzykat]

I simply don't run Cunning Wish. Besides, Burn is one of these generally bad match ups that are easiliy fixed by sideboard, so its better be safe than sorry.

The real problem I have are paranoid Merfolk players in my meta, who run Annul and Spellstutter Sprites maindeck (along with FoW, Daze and the damned Cursecatchers). That kind of setup makes the match up slightly unfavourable, and I just have no idea on what to run in s/b against it. Plague works, but only if you stick it early enough and if there are no lords, which is hard. Any ideas?

There's always the original and ever amusing WOG. EE is also pretty darn effective depending on if you play enough basics to layout a solid manabase.

[Ectoplasm]

What's wrong with Ajani sb against burn/zoo? He even turns into a wincon if you get him to stick around.

[rockout]

Ajani is the life gain spell of choice if you aren't running cunning wish against the burn/zoo/goyf sligh.

[mossivo1986]

Game 3, I kept a strong hand in fact. It had 1 Island, Standstill, FOW, Factory, Factory, Sea, BS. I FOWed turn 1 Lackey (he was on the play) and I played a land but he dropped vial so Standstill was dead.

1 Island
2 Factory
1 Sea
1 Standstill
1 B.s.
1 FOW

On the draw, against which model of goblins again? (MR,RG,RB,RGB?)
The very simple reason why I wouldn't have taken this hand is because it forces you to overextend into t1 vial, t1 lackey (On the draw) Not to mention it doesn' have a fetch for a white source, and that it has no removal at all. Simply put, you obviously saw why you can not take hands like these because almost every t1-t3-t4 play by goblins just rapes you. This was not only not a strong hand (against goblins) I would consider it fundamental misjudgement on your part. I'm not trying to sound like a dick but with all the tools you had you took a risk on game 3 and you lost. Your blue splash as you found out is not what beats goblins, its the white and potentially black splashes that hammer them.


I had the feeling that this was going to happen but I REALLY NEED to FOW Lackey instead of vial since I had no StP/BEB and I can't block with factory if he went first.

Exactly. But this is why Mulliganing would have been he choice you should have made. Standstill is your reach card in the mid-game when you solve the board problem. It allows you to extend into the late game against gobbos.



@Moss: EP is a little too narrow in my meta. It answers goblins, and I've yet to test it against Ichorid. I think it slows Ichorid down, but not much unless you get double EP, which would be golden. What shines against Ichorid is Extirpate and aggressive mulligan and wastelands/vindicate to keep them off their land, slowing the dredging since they can no longer rely on their spells to dredge, and you force them to dredge and overextend. Furthermore, the newer Ichorid lists board in Greater Gargadon, which EP fails to resolve the problem since Gargadon ignores EP and can attack from multiple directions, giving the deck a headache. From testing, one just needs to counter inital discard outlets, hopefully disrupt their manabase (this is usually not common, but would be huge) and then stalling with EE until you find Extirpate to seal the deal. Pithing Needle on EE is a bitch although in Vindcate builds, you have another out. I've found that 2-3 Paths instead of 2-3 EP is much better since it answers threat-light decks such as Thresh and Team America, and it destroys Zoo. EP is great against Merfolks and Goblins and Elves, much better than Path, and my meta isn't infested with them, which I am glad so I choose 2-3 Paths instead.

I understand that if you don't have the tribal matches as much then it isn't as relivent.

Pate fyi is the weakest of the removal packages you can bring in against ichorid. The only reason wish for pate is a strong play is because it answers things like loosing right away. It gives you additional time to answer any additional problems the board has for you. I don't see GG used in ichorid. What do they take out in order to use it? Ill spot some lists and do some recon testing, but the last time I checked this matchup out it was in my favor pre-board and even heavier post board.

[GGoober]

Yeah Moss I agree that I should have mulled that hand, but how am I to gamble on a hand that had the potential of landing Standstill if he does not resolve vial? If I mulled and got no FOW/removal for Lackey, then mulling to 5 would be even riskier. I took my bets on the first hand with an answer to lackey. The deal was my opponent was playing super conservatively, i.e. he wasn't going for the throat like goblins, so I was under the impression that he kept a weak/slow hand (as in games 1 and 2, which frustratingly, I did not win them since his draws were crappy and my draws were even worse).

Against Gobs, I boarded out 1 Standstill (playing 3 after board) since they run vial. I think that resolving an early standstill is just out of the question but a standstill in the mid-game spells GG for them unless you're as pro as me to draw crap in a deck that draws half their deck during the course of a match lol.

I'll probably give EP a shot after M10 since I'm expecting my friend to play Survival Elves as a comeback. Pate is a little slow against Ichorid but if you have 1 MD and maybe a MTutor to tutor for it and 1 in the wishboard, it becomes much stronger. That's the only time I really think MTutor is good when you have 2 Pates in the SB. With Relic and FOW backup against Needles, you can usually slow-roll them until you lock them out. It's definitely not an easy matchup though but my dredge players in my meta are all new so the matchup should not be as tough against an experienced dredge player.

[Tinefol]

There's always the original and ever amusing WOG. EE is also pretty darn effective depending on if you play enough basics to layout a solid manabase.

The problem with EE and humility is that they're weak to Annul (maindecked here). WoG is pretty effective, but against merfolk, the earliest you can successfully cast it is generally your 6th land drop (assuming they waste at least one your land, and you need 1 mana open to be Daze/Cursecatcher proof). Sometimes your 6th land drop is about too late. My only thought is to go paranoid too and play with R splash for cheap clasm and blast effects and perhaps even Fire//Ice

I always board out at least 3 Standstills against decks running both wasteland and vial. If they're also running manlands (like merfolk), or port (like goblins) I tend to board out all Standstills. Simply because you can't afford to gamble in these matches, and every dead card early game card is going to cost you alot. Against decks running only vial (no wasteland) I board out 1-2 Standstills, especially if on the draw.

[Benie Bederios]

Hey guys,

I got ended splitting up for first place in a tournament today.

I won against Survival Elves, Aggro-Loam( in 2 straight games), Countertop.

Won against Countertop again in the top 4, and split the top.

Benie

[rockout]

Grats, list and report plz.

[GGoober]

Would like to see the report against aggro loam. I believe it's not an easy matchup and the games are usually very long due to the resiliency of both decks.

A list would be nice and I would like more details on the aggro-loam MU. CB-top matchups are easy. Landstill doesn't really care about CB and can cast EE@2 for converted mana cost 3 or more with colorless lands.

Good job!

[mossivo1986]

what part of the matchup are you having a problem with? which models?

Also are you sure your establishing the difference between multiple color loam variants as well as aggro loam?

[Romanus]

Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and I feel ready to talk seriously about Landstill now that I have tested it against a variety of decks. Have a look at my list and please feel free to tear it up, I dig new ideas.

I know I know, looks like a 4c and there is another thread for that. My main question is should I dump red as an alt color and go pure UWb? The tropical islands would be turned into plains/islands, and Ajani V. would turn into another land. Ajani has been amazing in testing, and buys me serious time to dig for removal or counters. His built in helix is online right as my health needs help. Even used his ultimate last night vs Zoo post wrath to clear the board completely. REB and Pyroblast have been crazy vs Merfolk and the mirror. Forcing into my REB gives me serious tempo.

My weakness is mana consistency. The two Tropicals are really islands that power REB from the board. (Ajani was a test run) Nonbasic hate destroys me. Obviously I am playing in a seriously aggro infested meta, and need answers for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Dreadstill, ect.

Yan’s list inspired me to try this out.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29172

Any advice before I take this to a serious tourney?



Lands
X4 Tundra
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X4 Flooded Strand
X1 Bloodstained Mire
X3 Volcanic Island
X2 Scrubland
X1 Academy Ruins
X2 Wasteland
X1 Island
X1 Plains

White
X3 Wrath of God
X1 Humility
X4 Swords to Plowshares
X1 Eternal Dragon
X1 Decree of Justice

Blue
X4 Force of Will
X3 Spell Snare
X3 Counterspell
X4 Brainstorm
X2 Cunning Wish
X3 Standstill

Artifacts
X3 Engineered Explosives
X1 N. Disk

Walkers
X1 Jace
X2 Elspeth
X1 Ajani Vengeant

Other
X2 Vindicate

Sideboard
X1 Extirpate
X2 E. Plague
X1 Humility
X2 Negate
X1 Pyroblast
X1 Red Ele Blast
X1 Dismantling blow
X1 Mystical Tutor
X1 Path to Exile
X1 Return to Dust
X1 Pulse the Fields
X1 Misdirection
X1 Hydroblast

[mossivo1986]

Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and I feel ready to talk seriously about Landstill now that I have tested it against a variety of decks. Have a look at my list and please feel free to tear it up, I dig new ideas.

I know I know, looks like a 4c and there is another thread for that. My main question is should I dump red as an alt color and go pure UWb? The tropical islands would be turned into plains/islands, and Ajani V. would turn into another land. Ajani has been amazing in testing, and buys me serious time to dig for removal or counters. His built in helix is online right as my health needs help. Even used his ultimate last night vs Zoo post wrath to clear the board completely. REB and Pyroblast have been crazy vs Merfolk and the mirror. Forcing into my REB gives me serious tempo.

My weakness is mana consistency. The two Tropicals are really islands that power REB from the board. (Ajani was a test run) Nonbasic hate destroys me. Obviously I am playing in a seriously aggro infested meta, and need answers for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Dreadstill, ect.

Yan’s list inspired me to try this out.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29172

Any advice before I take this to a serious tourney?



Lands
X4 Tundra
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X4 Flooded Strand
X1 Bloodstained Mire
X3 Volcanic Island
X2 Scrubland
X1 Academy Ruins
X2 Wasteland
X1 Island
X1 Plains

White
X3 Wrath of God
X1 Humility
X4 Swords to Plowshares
X1 Eternal Dragon
X1 Decree of Justice

Blue
X4 Force of Will
X3 Spell Snare
X3 Counterspell
X4 Brainstorm
X2 Cunning Wish
X3 Standstill

Artifacts
X3 Engineered Explosives
X1 N. Disk

Walkers
X1 Jace
X2 Elspeth
X1 Ajani Vengeant

Other
X2 Vindicate

Sideboard
X1 Extirpate
X2 E. Plague
X1 Humility
X2 Negate
X1 Pyroblast
X1 Red Ele Blast
X1 Dismantling blow
X1 Mystical Tutor
X1 Path to Exile
X1 Return to Dust
X1 Pulse the Fields
X1 Misdirection
X1 Hydroblast

Well it's nice to see some new blood in here :). Welcome to the Land Still thread. About Yahn's list.

I pissed and moaned all over this list when I first saw it. I didn't like 0 manipulation, 2 crucibles, ect., ect., ect.

Then Rockout and Konsultant both stated that it plays like a standard deck; and I settled down, and tested it (Part of this was when I was having trouble with my own wish still which happens every now and again) So my own personal opinion is that Yahn's model although cool, is not really viable from a standpoint that it lacks not only deck manipulation but that it's answers are simply too weak to hold up on a consistent basis. Part of the reason UWb Landstill survived so long is that it is very resilient to the meta-game and just general ass-hattery that an opponent may or may not have handy. It's also resilliant to the rules of the game (See Combat phase, taka taka taka Joel made -a- funny.)

Anyways all I can dig up is this so heres what you get:



Konsultant's post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=356879&postcount=2214) following the first view of the list.

About your list. I think you have alot of the right ideas in mind. I see where your thinking and your pretty close to having an idea of what newer land still is like. Go out and test some games, and pay particular attention to your resources particularly your land. Then you will understand exactly why four color doesn't work right now in legacy.

[Romanus]

Thanks for the reply Mossivo. After some further testing last night I can see where you are coming from. Our Goblin player mana screwed me bad with some timely waste draws and my girlfriend ( a nasty Zoo player) priced me for lethal twice. Went back to a UWb shell and tore both of them up. We talked about it for a bit and came to the same conclusion you did.

The options red gives me make tougher matches like Merfolk a tad easier, but opens me up to nonbasic hate, making the matches I should win harder. I do not like that trade off, so back to UWb I go! More testing tonight and I will update a list.

Thanks again. :cool:

[mossivo1986]

you mine as well play path to exile and Engineered plague with 10-11 maindecked removal spells.

[Benie Bederios]

Would like to see the report against aggro loam. I believe it's not an easy matchup and the games are usually very long due to the resiliency of both decks.

A list would be nice and I would like more details on the aggro-loam MU. CB-top matchups are easy. Landstill doesn't really care about CB and can cast EE@2 for converted mana cost 3 or more with colorless lands.

Good job!

Working on translating the report...

Loam was quite possitive. Game 1 Humility is your best weapon. With 2 Fact or Fiction, 4 Standstill you can keep up with there Loam engine in the early/midgame. They can't deal with Plainswalkers.

Postboard 7 Plows works to keep the big beaters away for good, Crucible nulifies Wasteland and Plainswalkers quicken the clock. That and 4 Relic of Progenitus of course.

Benie

[GGoober]

Thanks for the advice! I am considering the 3rd Path in the SB. And playing along with 3 Negate, and maybe 3 Relic. Burn isn't an issue as it used to be since if you resolve Wish->Pulse, you're all good. I've been less fond of BEB and like Negate in its place, but in a Zoo/Goblin/aggro meta, maybe BEB is better. Negate is good against ANT, and that's all I have to worry, and I do like that slot instead of hate-bears. I've played aggro loam for practice without the SB and it was tough. I'm sure 7 StP is more than enough for their 12 (recurring) threats (RGb aggro-loam is the superior version IMO). The main deal is to stop Terravore, and Relic seems hot. I just never practiced that MU with the board.

People should try out Teferi's Response in a LD heavy meta. It's super funny yet devastating. My reasoning for its possible SB in a LD heavy meta is that it not only protects against LD, BUT it also protects attacking Mishra's which are super common targets for creature removals. As far as I've tested. 2 Teferi's Response in the SB for LD heavy meta is really good, but I strongly advice against it unless your meta is 50% LD since it's a win-more card (not too win more if it's >50%LD meta). Surprisingly, it's never a dead card since Mishras are a common bolt/StP target as well. It's awesome to destroy Lavamancer targetting Mishra's for the lulz :P

Anyway, I'm working on a new version of Landstill. I'll post lists here and on N&D. The playstyle is very different, and it can be seen as an evolution of a vindicateless Speedstill.

[Elf_Ascetic]

How do you guys handle the ANT matchup? Even with 3 MMage and 3 Scullers in the board, I have a hard time... (but then again, I'm up to the best ANT players in the world) I dont need advice on how to play against it, that I know, but more on SB card choices, and estimates on this matchup from you. Is there any wishable tech?

(I guess, 10-90 preboard, unless they start gambling. postboard 50-50 at best)

[Tinefol]

Orim's chant to wish for? I had some success with Ethersworn Canonist, guess that works better against ANT than Sculler. Combined with MMage - almost a hard lock. It also works with Enlightened Tutor, much like Sculler.

[Ectoplasm]

I've got 3 canonists in my board as well. Sometimes they're completely dead but MM on wipe away + canonist is good game, most of the time.
Edit: Do you have Runed Halo in your sideboard? Between Halo, MM and some random hate (sculler, canonist) you should be able to drop enough hate to keep them from going off.

[rsaunder]

I've got 3 canonists in my board as well. Sometimes they're completely dead but MM on wipe away + canonist is good game, most of the time.
Edit: Do you have Runed Halo in your sideboard? Between Halo, MM and some random hate (sculler, canonist) you should be able to drop enough hate to keep them from going off.When I was running Vindicate-Still (Konsultant's list with minor variations), I had great success with 3 halo/3 Mage. They did double duty against control and were generally enough alongside the 10 permission and land destruction to fight through tendrils. I've always thought sculler was the weakest choice, honestly.

Why MM on Wipe Away? Most combo decks I see pack kgrip/other bounce post board as well, so it only takes one removal spell to get through that lock.

On the wish-still list, I really want to fit in a second humility/disk. I know Moss already runs both, but he had to bump up to 61 cards and down to 23 lands with no dragons to do it. I think my list is (to avoid posting another decklist) his -1 relic, -1 disk, -1 SDT, +1 FoF, +1 tolaria west. Is it worth cutting draw #9 and blue card#20 to get another big 4cc bomb? Meh, I don't know if I like it.

[rockout]

I used to run 4 mage 3 halo and never had a problem with combo. That was back before I ran spell snare. Currently I'm running 3x negate out of the board and it has been stellar. Weird how I take out combo hate and I still don't really lose to combo all that often.

Just run 61 cards. All the cool kids are doing it.

[ultimoman]

I'm using 60. My list is almost a mirror of Moss' actually, but I have relic in the sideboard instead of the main.

Would 61 be better? I can see land screw happening more and drawing the Relic instead of something needed and being just too late.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I like the clock that sculler gives, instead of Runed Halo. All their bounce works on Halo too, anyway.

I like the versitility of Sculler, it is good versus Agroloam, Dreadstill, and even the mirror.

Wishable Chant works only against noob-combo players, which I regretfully do not encounter.

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

Man, I wish Extract was an instant!

[rockout]

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

It's true. I am the king of top decks amongst my play circle.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't have much luck against ANT with UWb. I win now and then off of a fistful of counters but they win more often off of Duress or Orim's Chant and then going off. The Doomsday FT matchup is pretty dreadful also. I never see TES so I don't know how that matchup goes, it might be a bit better because of Spell Snare on Burning Wish but I doubt it.

[Benie Bederios]

I like the clock that sculler gives, instead of Runed Halo. All their bounce works on Halo too, anyway.

I like the versitility of Sculler, it is good versus Agroloam, Dreadstill, and even the mirror.

Wishable Chant works only against noob-combo players, which I regretfully do not encounter.

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

Man, I wish Extract was an instant!

Normally against ANT, I would name Tendrils with both G2. Most of the opponents I played only boarded in Chain of Vapor. Double Meddling Mage spells GG then. If you G2 like this, you probably right on boarding G3. Allthough It depends on the life-total too. Meddling Mage puts a tiny clock on the opponent. If he is below 13 lands Orim's Chant would be a better call, because it shuts down IGG-loop most of the time and you can sandbag counters against Ad Nauseam.

But then again, just 50 miles west of Elf_Ascetic's homebase, where I play, the ANT players are quite weak.

Benie

[Ectoplasm]

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

Ofc you're not gonna name wipe away if it's the only thing on the table, but dropping a mage on wipe away while a canonist is out spells gg for your opponent since you can just sit on counters for the odd slaughter pact/chain of vapor.

Then again I rarely play against (good) comboplayers so I might just underestimate cards like duress that can and will screw you up.

[NQN]

I played a list very close to mossivos but without relic in the main 60.
There was a small tourney that thursday again and I again finished first, this time with 3-0-1.
I won two very close games again Canadian, then had to play against Loam and got the Disk+Elspeth Combo twice with counterbackup for assault. Without Disk I would have been totally wrecked but I´m still not concerned about it.
I´m gonna test it at tomorrows tournament against and give you a short report
about it. B
ut my real "desire" is to find out whether to play disk on sunday(big tourney) or not :/ Im expecting a very random meta so I think disk should be fine :S
What do you think (Moss?)? Any new consolidated findings on that card?

[FoolofaTook]

Then again I rarely play against (good) comboplayers so I might just underestimate cards like duress that can and will screw you up.

If you play against a Storm combo player who has a lot of experience with the deck in question, and experience beating control, it becomes very hard to beat them. It's possible, but it's not probable in most cases.

Duress is a huge problem, especially when you don't have Brainstorm in hand to hide things. Even then you run the risk of hiding the counter you will need later in the turn, even on a fairly early turn.

Counterbalance is the control device most likely to dominate Storm combo and even then it needs to be backed up by a real clock to make it fully effective.

[mossivo1986]

quick update. 3 tournaments down with the new list. 2 five rounders and a four rounder and i'm at 13-1 losing to four color thresh with 2 mulli's to five in a row in the last round of one of the five rounders. FML that matchup is soo winnable.

[LostButSeeking]

quick update. 3 tournaments down with the new list. 2 five rounders and a four rounder and i'm at 13-1 losing to four color thresh with 2 mulli's to five in a row in the last round of one of the five rounders. FML that matchup is soo winnable.

Could you give us a not-quick update? I love tournament reports more than anything, except maybe elspeth. I love her a lot.

[rockout]

I feel your pain joel. I went 1-1-1 against 3 rounds of 4c thresh at 5k boston and wanted someone to just kill me. It's a match up we normally don't lose to but sometimes shit happens.

[GGoober]

I went into this metagame this weekend:

Participants
Jeff - Team America
Chris - UWb Wishstill
Teddy - Deadguy
Dan - Pox
Drew - Imperial Painter
Silas - GB LD
Brian - NLS
David - RGb Aggro Loam
Joey - RGb Zoo
Lil' Chris - Belcher
Kim - Geddon Stax
Tray - Homebrew screw-the-aggro-decks-and-destroy-ANT.dec

So there were Team America, Deadguy, Pox, Painter, GB Land-D, Aggro Loam, Stax as Land-D decks, that's 7/12 decks with LD as a strategy. I obviously SBed wrong that day thinking it wasn't going to be LD heavy since the Stax player was new to our place, and I thought Jeff was going to play Elf Survival, and Dan something like Coatl Gro or Zoo. I should have boarded 2 Teferi's Response, and Maindecked 2 more for such a meta.

I ultimately went: 1-2, 2-0, 1-2 against Team America, GB LD, Pox. A play mistake during my 3rd game against Team America was pathing Goyf when I knew he had Tombstalker and FOW in hand. I had 2 FOWs in hand and we knew each other's hand via opposing Extirpates. I was afraid to drop to 4 life, but realized my mistake IMMEDIATELY (albeit too late to take back the move). Had I taken the 4 damage from Goyf dropping to 4, I could have saved FOW against Tombstalker with another FOW protection from his FOW, while Pathing the Goyf later and recovering with Wish-> Pulse. So in light of my mistake last minute, I just prayed he didn't draw a blue card to pitch to FOW, allowing me to stabilize and possibly win, but Legacy punished me for making a play mistake, which I'm glad I lost the game since now I learn.

Here's advice to those who want to pick up Landstill. Your life is your gambling table. Don't be afraid to drop it but be afraid if you don't weigh out your FUTURE options. Landstill is a complicated deck that plans forward, so don't be intimidated by the current position, since you have the card quality and tutoring capabilities of grabbing answers for the future.

I was just unfortunate to play against so many LD decks this weekend. It's survivable, but it's not favorable MU. Top helped my matches all day, but it wasn't easy recovering against opposing Crucible + Waste. There was a point where I could almost Wish->Extirpate Wastelands but couldn't pull it off because of the pressure my manabase was against, and he always kept Wastelands in play after nuking my lands.

Also, Eternal Dragon has been good to me as the 24th landslot. And I made the mistake to play 2 Islands, 1 Plains as my basics. Should have played 1 Island, 2 Plains for the Dragon and all the WW requirements of the deck. It was a last minute change.

[mossivo1986]

Not so quick update:

tournament 1.

R1: Me vs: Merfolk:

G1: Removal is a wonderfull tool. Unfortunately I don't have it. He runs me over quickly. Not such a good start

Side in: +3 P2E, +3 EE.

G2: 17 removal post sideboard does it's job. Send pleanty of folk Farming and Exiling, finishing them off with double EP. Thank god for sideboards.

G3: He takes a slow slow slow hand; while I keep a fast aggressive removal heavy draw. eot t3 vendillion to draw the daze or see what he's up to. It lands I remove a stifle. t4 Land elspeth and begin the landstill hazing with 6/4 flying death machine. EP and a path seal the game.
2:1

R2: Me vs: Burn
g1: I win the toss, cunning wish eot for pulse= GG
g2: Rinse repeat with FOW on Blast. = GG with pulse.

R3: Arm Stax:
g1: He runs me over with teh arm nuts.

+3 negate
+1 COW

g2: He lands dustbowl along with lots of lands, and trinisphere. I play around it countering ever little stupid thing he plays that relivent ala crucible and ala stax and geddon. I eventually get jace online and he resolves a geddon. Jace does what jace does and I keep making land drops and stopping crucible. Finally I get online and land an elspeth for which he is upset four turns later when I kick the final and play my other one. Also landed disk and was really disgusting to kill all of his board position.

g3: He plays challice, trinisphere, crucible. I eot clique nabbing geddon (whew) followed by elspeth. He conceits soon after.

(Vendillion clique is pretty sick I hear, don't take my word for it though.)

R4: Me vs: UWb Fetchland tendrills
g1: Multiple forces off the top plus a counterspell and a wish for negate beats this scrub.

+3 negate
+1 Pate

g2: Him, eot Tutor for Nauseam, me pate tutor= he runs out of gas and I get to build up my counter suit.

(Very weak pilot)

R5: Me versus Merfolk:
g1: I go for the inevitability game swapping removal for creatures and decrees as removal spells. Eventually 20 cards down I get elspeth and it lands. I then switch over to overprotective mode for elspeth against two mutavaults. I drop disk a turn before elspeth goes off and he swings head first into two soldiers and a path. I hear indestructable disk is pretty sick.

g2: Virtually the same as r2 g2 as I just overrun him with removal. This time Annual is not enough of a tempo play to stop me. Sorry blue krosan grip: you loose.

Thank you mana drain.

Tourney #2
r1: Me vs: Dragon Stompy:
g1: I draw disk in the opener with 3 lands. I draw fourth land in time. Quick note: Disk> Dragon Stompy.

+3 Negate

g2: Virtually the exact same thing.

R2: Me Versus 3c aggro Loam:
g1: I kill creatures, I play humiliy, I wish for relc, I wish for pate, I win game.

+1 cruc
+1 relic
+3 path

G2: More removal and an additional relic + a way to randomly fight wastelock. didnt see crucible but basicly I stop him land an elspeth followed by a decree for 2 and win from there. DD or B Wish was never drawn from him.

R3: Can't remember right now

R4: Same thing < I think it could have been a bye. I was drinking pretty hard by this point.

R5: Me versus 4c thresh.
g1: Mull - 5. Procede to be run over by bob

+3 path
+3 EP
+1 Relic

g2: Mull - 5. Procede to get run over by goyf + Goose. Disheartening.

Other tourney was a local one. I four-0'd it. I beat 4c aggro loam, u/g/r thresh, recursion, and had a bye. Shitty prizes.

GG

[Tinefol]

Team America should be a bye for us. We run more removal than they do run creatures, and we can actually counter some of their creatures. Just fetch for a basic plains (personally, I run 3 islands, 2 plains, they can't do much against basics, just snare the sinkhole) and sit on your sword/paths until they lose gas. Its easy. So far I'm 6-0 against Team America decks. I don't see the point of boarding extirpate there. You're most likely going to "exile" their creatures and unless you get early wasteland+pate, they wouldn't have anything worthy in graveyard except for the FoW.

Eva green and Pox are much tougher, since they run a fair amount of discard to supplement LD strategy and sometimes Crucible (must counter). We don't like discard. Yet its still winnable with a chain of standstills.

[NQN]

I believe we actually have hard times against TA if they don´t screw around. Their LD package is strong and so are they´re beaters which are often covered by TS.
Well,
I went to two tournaments this weekend going 0-1 drop because of the worst metagame for LS ever (was like 1 quinn, 1 dredge,1 CAL,1loam,1burn etc.)
The next day we went to a biggger tournament but I failed again :/
Here´s a short summary of what happens if fortune decides to kick your ass:

Round 1 Elves Dice: ME!!
G1: He beats me down to 1, I recur EE like 10 times and finally go for 2 Angels via DoJ to finish him off.
+3EP 1+E.Tutor +3 Path +2 Perish
G2: Opening 7: 3 Lands, 2 Perish 1 Plage 1 Path. I Win.

Round 2 Tempo Thresh /b Dice: not me.
G1: I go down to 6 cards and keep the following:
1 Island, 1 SDT,1 BS, 2 Wish 1 Snare
I´m pretty sure it was right to keep because top means usually gg and five cards always suck with this deck.
Long story short: I fail at finding more lands and loose to one Goyf.
+2 Perish +3 PtE
G2: I get a normal draw with two removals and crush him.
G3: 0/7 Swords+screw->One Goyf is enough again.

Round 3 ANT Dice: not me
I loose game 1, get a bunch of counters and my 1-off Pate->victory in game 2+3. Had zero SB cards for this MU.

Round 4 Ugw Faerie Sur Dice:not me
This round was so hilarious. I just got the best draw since ever. I counter nearly everything and still have xX removals left. He never had a real chance.

Round 5 Goyfsligh Dice: not me
G1: He screws at one Taiga but is still able to land 4 Nacatls. I eventually kill some of them, chump the last via Elspeth Tokens and wish for Pulse.
+3 PtE +1 BEB +2 Ajani +1 Perish
G2: I Keep: 2 Island, 1 PLains, 1 Tundra, 2 BS 1 Top<- Should I´ve mulled?
I fail to draw any spells and die with 4 lands in play and 3 in hand.
G3: First hand is nearly the same as in g2 so I try to mull this time.
I get two Ajanis and Pulse, but with Island Dust Bowl Tundra I can´t cast more than 1 brainstorm before dying.

Round 6 Gbw random rock Dice: Not Me
G1: I thoughtseizes all my Spells and then goes for Confi,Confi,Confi where I go for landlandlandlandgg.
G2: I keep a two lander because of top. I die with one land in play after he gripped my Top and vindicated a land.

3-3 -.-

To sum up:
I had to play against 4 friends in 6 rounds, lost even the very good matchups and casted like 1 or 2 Standstills in the whole tournament. BUT! I nearly always had all three factories in play :) I think I´m gonna play Goyfsligh for a while now, my deck hates me (or maybe just wants new sleeves :P)


Cheers,
NQN :cry:

[johanessen]

On next tournament I'm trying this, and I'd like some advice.

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
9 Island
3 Plains
(25 lands)

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Trinket Mage
(6 creatures)

2 Elspeth, The Knight Errant
(2 planeswalkers)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Moat
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
(27 other spells)

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dispeller's Capsule
2 Path to Exile
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Nevinyrral's Disk


It's another concept of the deck, maybe more agressive who knows.

[Tinefol]

Manabase: 25 lands is overkill, you need 23 at most, 2 more fetches and Academy Ruins (just wins with Explosives).

Creatures: ditch Sower, seriously. It sucks there. What are you running Trinket Mage for (only Explosives)? If you really want to run it, you have to add some grabbable maindeck 'meat' for it. E. g. Pithing needle, Sensei's Divining Top, Relic of Progenitus. Otherwise, it sucks, you better off running additional Explosives.

Spells: Needs more removal.

[Elfrago]

And for god's sake, play wasteland.

[rockout]

And for god's sake, play wasteland.

[LostButSeeking]

johanessen, I had some questions about your list.

Firstly, what's your meta like? What decks do you usually see at a given tournament?

Are the trinket mages only to fetch the engineered explosives and some sideboard material? How have you found it? It seems to me like a really, really bad tutor, especially considering that with your two moats (I am :g: with envy about that, I promise you) they won't be able to attack most of the time. If you end up keeping them, I'd put in singleton copies of artifact lands. Just a thought.

On the subject of engineered explosives, I'm concerned about your restriction to two colors. I played elves the other day, and being able to EE at 3 was absolutely CRITICAL.

How have you found the vendillion cliques? Mossivo is a strong proponent, but I haven't found time to test them and I'm curious what you thought. What matchups do you want them/don't want them?

Given your high island count--which I think is a choice, guys, it makes him less vulnerable to wasteland/color screw in exchange for not being able to handle other deck's manlands--have you considered vedalken shackles? It looks to me like it might be very strong here.

[johanessen]

Originally Trinket Mage slot was Kira, but i found Trinket mage very good against aggro, zoo and tribal decks because it's a blocker plus ee tutor, and post side helps to get the bullets.

Kira was good because of flying and protect the vendilion and the sower wich are weak against removal.

It's maybe a better option?

About EE@2 it could be an option to add u-sea or scrubland to get the third color, I'll try it.

[VonDoom]

it could be an option to add u-sea or scrubland to get the third color, I'll try it.

It is NOT an option.
It is MANDATORY!!!
EE@3 is awesome!

Plus to that, you can play those black classics, like extirpate, engineered plague, the abyss, .....

[johanessen]

It is NOT an option.
It is MANDATORY!!!
EE@3 is awesome!

Plus to that, you can play those black classics, like extirpate, engineered plague, the abyss, .....


Hmm The Abyss+Kira sounds sexy, but i'm not used to like that card.

If I add black in mana base, I suppose i'm adding Extirpates and Plagues on sideboard, remove trinket mage for wishes and one enlightened tutor in sideboard. It's a very valid option too. But my last thoughts on plagues are not very good.

[GGoober]

I would say that TA is a 55/45, 60/40 MU in our favor. It's not a bye because they can sometimes draw the nuts and screw you out of colored mana forever. It's difficult to play against, but once you secure your lands against TA, they become the easiest deck to beat, especially post Path to up to 6 StP effects.

However, my friend had boarded in Extirpates and used them against StP, therefore removing quite a ton of my answers to their threat-light density. I believe that Extirpate against Landstill is a good card for TA since they can discard and pate out the StP and relevant answers we have against them. Overall, it's a fun MU, and not a bye, but should be in our favor. The TA player can argue that it's in their favor, but it all ends up in whether TA can disrupt our manabase before we land our bombs and answer theirs.

[FoolofaTook]

The Abyss is too slow for Legacy at this point and there are too many commonly played cards that avoid it, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Nimble Mongoose, Mishra's Factory and Mutavault being the obvious ones before you get into rogue decks still playing Gigapede and Masticore and other holdovers from days gone by.

As a solution it also has the problem that by the time you're likely to get it in play the opponent has a reasonable chance to have drawn their grips or wipeaways and it doesn't save you.

Moat has the advantage that it totally shuts down most opponents when it lands and so the speed vs risk factor plays a little bit better in your favor. Drawing The Abyss when you are facing an aggro opponent with multiple creatures on the board only delays the result by a short while as they lose creatures one by one.

I tried to make a deck to exploit The Abyss using Nimble Mongoose, Phyrexian Dreadnought and Gigapede alongside Mishra's Factories, and I found that the creatures themselves won games but The Abyss was just too slow to help when it was needed. Was nice win-more when it landed but that was all it was.

[from Cairo]

Moat seems really counter-synergistic with 5 grounded manlands, and Trinket Mages. I'd probably play 1 Enlightened Tutor, and an additional removal spell in the places of the Mages. A land could probably afford to be dropped for another removal spell as well (2x PTE or Wrath).

If you end up dropping Sower and Mage, I'd probably go with the standard Decrees of Justice and Humility(ies) over Moat at that point, since the manlands rule the ground with Humility on board, and the Decree and Elspeth Tokens become gigantic CA machines.

Somewhat off topic...

Also I wouldn't attach oneself to a 3rd color splash necessarily having to be Black. When the deck was running Vindicates in the main, and almost always 3-4 Extripates and Engineered Plagues in the board, Black made the most sense. With the printings of Path to Exile and Relic of Progenitus, Landstill has gained access to a few more very powerful cards that can fill the holes against agro (Tribal and otherwise) and Graveyard strategies.

If you can supplement the decks Removal and GY hate in the primary colors already, then maybe a different color could help fill other needs. I haven't really explored it too much, but Green obviously offers Krosan Grip, Seed Spark (as Wish target?), Nantuko Monastary, and Life from the Loam. Red could give Red Blasts, Fire//Ice and 'Clasm effects.

Either of these may prove to be strictly worse than Black (as was the case prior to SoA block), but it seems like a possibility that they'd be better in some metas.

[Omega]

Mossivo1986 : Mind listing a list? Or point out a what page it is? :)

Robert

[johanessen]

With the new changes, here is the list.

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
(25 lands)

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
(4 creatures)

2 Elspeth, The Knight Errant
(2 planeswalkers)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish
2 Moat
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
(29 other spells)

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlightened Tutor

How do you see now


Moat seems really counter-synergistic with 5 grounded manlands, and Trinket Mages. I'd probably play 1 Enlightened Tutor, and an additional removal spell in the places of the Mages. A land could probably afford to be dropped for another removal spell as well (2x PTE or Wrath).

If you end up dropping Sower and Mage, I'd probably go with the standard Decrees of Justice and Humility(ies) over Moat at that point, since the manlands rule the ground with Humility on board, and the Decree and Elspeth Tokens become gigantic CA machines.

Yes... this are my feelings right now. But games take too long, with moat you can still have those flyers to end game faster, which is a problem in Landstill

[GGoober]

Moat is just goddamn aweful in UW Landstill. Your factories/Elspeth tokens can no longer attack, and it doesn't stop one of the more difficult threats to get rid of i.e. Tombstalker. Moat does help Elspeth's second ability, but the limitation is not something good to have, especially in a deck that needs to have answers from many areas. Attacking with ONE flying Factory while the rest sit at home isn't that great. Landstill is perhaps more fearful of Tombstalker than Dreadnought/Goyf since our other removal EE cannot get rid of it. We have Spell Snare/EE/StP against Goyf, so although Moat stops that, it doesn't stop Tombstalker.

Not to mention that Moat dies to Qasali Pridemage which is popular in Zoo and in UGw Thresh. Humility shuts down ANY CiP abilities. Moat doesn't stop Imperial Painter from fecthing Servant and win, but Humility outright wins those matches and it has MUCH more synergy with Factories and Elspeth whereas Moat kills those cards. Since the printing of Qasali Pridemage, I think the incentive to run Moat has decreased unless you're running Exalted Angel in Stax, but you recently see more white Stax utilizing Elspeth as win condition since Exalted also dies to many of the removal in the format.

[FoolofaTook]

Moat beats about half the meta at this point. It's a dead card against the other half and it's no guarantee of a win against the decks it's good against but it really does make a lot of sad pandas.

Any deck playing Eternal Dragon or Elspeth as a substantial part of the win cons can find room for a Moat if it also has ways to go looking for it or promote it naturally. 2 Moats is too much main deck though because it is a dead card in a lot of matchups.

[johanessen]

Moat has it's pro's also, being able to side in Meddling Mage, and having the option to play Vendilion and Sower, which is THE answer for the feared Stalkers.

But who knows, I suppose playing Humility has more sinergy with Manlands.

[GGoober]

Moatstill would be interesting, but if you were playing Meddling Mages, the only MUs where you bring tranny in is against combo or aggro loam (I just bring in for combo and against Loam, Cliques/Relics/Paths/StP is more than enough). If you bring in MM, you automatically board out Humility/Wrath/StP. I can't think of a MU where I needed both MM and creature removal in play. Against Painter, I do the same by bringing in more path against Painter.

Moat definitely does not synergize well with manlands, and factories are the heart of the deck since it plays standstill. If you run moat, don't run factories, and hence don't run Standstill. I.e. Moat is probably good for a more aggro-oriented Landstill with Sowers/Cliques/EDragon, but other than that, I don't want to lose Factories + Standstill in order to run a bomb. I would rather play with a less-powerful but synergistic bomb i.e. Humility than Moat. Moat's playability is drastically decreased now by the popularity of Pridemage. It also suffers the same drawback that Humility does i.e. a Grip ruins your day. At least Humility stops the Pridemage from making it a dead card. Moat is dead if they have an unanswered Pridemage.

[mossivo1986]

Mossivo1986 : Mind listing a list? Or point out a what page it is? :)

Robert

That makes two people in 10 minutes who've asked me that. Here it is:

UWb_TeamAwesome_Wish_Still

Overall 61 Cards

23 Land:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

10 Permission:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Vendillion Clique

10 Draw:
3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Devining Top
1 Jace

10 Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 humility

4 Utility Slots:
2 Cunning Wish
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nev. Disk

9 Win Con's:
3 Mishra's
2 Decree
2 Elspeth
1 jace
1 Vendillion

Board:
3 Plague
3 Path
3 Negate
1 e tutor
1 pulse
1 return to dust
1 pate
1 crucible
1 relic

Key changes:
-1 spell snare
-1 Relic
-1 vendillion

+2 Counterspell

From the feel of things mid-range decks are getting stronger and the format is becoming much more stable for landstill to be dominant again. The main contender in the tier is Ant which for some reason isn't seeing as much play; thanx 2010 :)."

To answer some simple questions:

Do you keep counterspell in when you side in negate?

Yes; you side in negate as additional counter protection against certain matchups. These matchups include: MUC,Ant,Versions of thresh that use tops second ability for reach against us.

why play 1 relic in the main as a 61'st card instead of just boarding it?

This specific model needed room for board tools like crucible of worlds for the harder matchups that focus on landbase as well as giving you the inevitability with disk + elspeth. The other 13 slots of wish targets as well as negate-plague-path are all slots that arn't changing for now. This leaves us with 1 slot (Which happens to be the second relic.) It is my belief that this type of a model only needs 2 graveyard removal spells, however atleast 1 needs to be main as the format is goyf infested as well as relic is just generally sick against 99.9% of the format.

Why no ajani?

Ajani although powerfull in the mirror and in the burn matchup really isn't that strong. It does occasionally prove more powerful then its normal intent; but overall buying yourself enough time with negate for wish pulse is what your going to need. For models that do not run wish but prefer vindicate I would say ajani is absolutely fine.

Whats so special about negate?

They made it a textless player rewards card. Have you ever countered a spell and said (I'll counter that with my umbrella made of lava!)

It's also just sick against opposing top's, random smokestacks, and just generally a great card. Kudo's wizards.

[GGoober]

Solid list Moss. I do want to stress that Negate is a good card, but if the situations arise where the meta is weak in LD and Wastelands, Counterspell is strictly better. Remember that our arguement to run Negate over counterspell was that the casting cost is difficult if you face against LD decks and wastelands. If the meta allows, Counterspell > Negate, otherwise Negate is strong too.

I'm starting to find 2 Pates excessive. I is needed, unless you're running MTutor so you can have 1 MD and 1 SB to wish for. I like the idea of Clique as another win con. Are you sad without Decrees? I've played with and without Decrees and I find that it speeds up many games, although it doesn't win us the less winnable matchups, in otherwords, it's a win-more card, but sometimes time constraint does make a win-more card a win-condition if you get what I mean.

Overall, I like the list, and 1 Disk is just right with ETutor in the wishboard. I'm debating on playing the second Ruins. It's just such a powerful land in the deck, especially with Disk. There's only one game where I saw double Ruins. Chances are its going to get destroyed sometime in the game. I'm happy people stop playing with the comfort of Crucible. I would personally add EDragon as the 61st/24th land rather than Relic. Relic is god-damn amazing from last weekend. It just beats the shit out of Team America, stops Goyf/Ichorid and other troublesome recursion, namely aggro loam. I definitely have 3 in my SB, and would play 4 depending on the meta. I think that although 1 Relic does help in MD against those Game 1 matches, but chances are you'll still lose them since Ichorid will beat you fast in Game 1 before you can ETutor -> Relic. I would rather have the 24th land and not miss my land drop against Ichorid Game 1. The same deal against Team America and many other decks. The 24th land drop is stronger than a hopefully tutorable answer since Landstill is meant to win matches if it doesn't miss its land drop. That's the moral of the story I learned from my matches. If I don't miss the 4th land drop, I'm in good shape to beat almost any deck out there.

And I agree with the mid-range decks favoring Landstill, and with ANT/combo being less popular due to M10, it's time for this deck to shine again. The deal is, a good combo player is not that much affected by M10 but since ANT is popular because of its relative ease of piloting the deck, we don't have a community of very pro combo players, so we would most likely see a drop in combo players after M10, although the good players will stay on and play and understand the deck as they used to do so.

[mossivo1986]

Remember that our arguement to run Negate over counterspell was that the casting cost is difficult if you face against LD decks and wastelands. If the meta allows, Counterspell > Negate, otherwise Negate is strong too.
I don't agree with this at all. Have rockout explain why; as I have to go see harry potter :) Get to it you troll troll troll

<3 Moss

[rockout]

You also board negate in against the mirror. Counterspell will always be a hard counter. Negate will sometimes counter what you want. Counterspell > Negate. Even if counterspell sits in your hand for the first 12 turns while you get wasted to shit you still will get your 2nd blue source at some point and be happy.

I also only run 2 wasteland now. My goal in life isn't to mana screw my opponent anymore. I've matured into a better landstill player. Dust bowl still sucks. I had someone ask me how to play landstill today. I think we need a new primer for the new lists running around.

If you want to run the 2nd ruins why not just run tolaria west instead. It fetches more shit. O wait we already ruled out tolaria west is too fucking slow and clunky after months of going this card sucks. If they are wasting your ruins you are winning.

What the hell are you talking about crz87? Combo will still be the same deck is has always been. Landstill has been DTB since I started playing it and I don't see that fading anytime soon.

[Rood]

Not sure I like the 1x random Vendillion Clique in there. I'd much rather like it being either

-The 4th Spell Snare
-3rd Cspell
-Another DoJ
-Cut it for 60 cards

It just seems like you could be running much more helpful cards in that slot.

[VonDoom]

The Abyss is too slow for Legacy at this point and there are too many commonly played cards that avoid it, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Nimble Mongoose, Mishra's Factory and Mutavault being the obvious ones before you get into rogue decks still playing Gigapede and Masticore and other holdovers from days gone by.

I recently win a medium tournament (76 players), and The Abyss was one of best side in cards against all aggro.
The Abyss fits perfectly in Landstill strategy --> "Take your time"
This means that the opponent must cast 2 creatures at time, because one isn't enough.
Just to give you the idea:
I won g2 in the final match activating Jace last ability, because of The Abyss slowing him down (Nassif style deck).
I won g3 in the fourth turn against goblin... simply decking him, because of The Abyss slowing him down

Generally speaking, The Abyss fits the strategy I've posted some page ago: I'm boarding in more targets than Kgrips you're boarding in

@Johansen: black gives you also perish, not so bad cards in these bant times :laugh:

[Ectoplasm]

I won g3 in the fourth turn against goblin... simply decking him, because of The Abyss slowing him down

I must have misinterpreted it but are you telling me that you removed someone's library in turn four? :eek: How did that happen?

@Rockout, 2 wastelands IMO is pushing it since personally I like to be able to shoot some wastes at my opponent's mutavaults/factories when I'm playing against something like merfolk, rock or the mirror. Any thoughts?

[Darkenslight]

I must have misinterpreted it but are you telling me that you removed someone's library in turn four? :eek: How did that happen?

More likely the Gobbo player milled himself with Ringleader, and because of the Abyss, he managed to get Jace's Ultimate off to mill FTW.

[NQN]

So you mean you basically won when Abyss hit the table...?

@Moss:
I played "your" list but with 60 cards, 4 brainstorm and 4 Snare and 8 SB cards against RG and STILL lost to it...How do you win if you f.e. don´t get an early swords/snare?

[VonDoom]

More likely the Gobbo player milled himself with Ringleader, and because of the Abyss, he managed to get Jace's Ultimate off to mill FTW.

Nono, I misexplained.

In the fourth match of the turney, I was paired against goblin.
After 10 minutes we were going to play G3.

The match went so far, also because of The Abyss, and we arrived with myself at 6lp, and him with creatures for 6 damages in the battleground.

I counted cards in his deck, and these were 4.
I checked that he had used all haste goblins
I resolved a standstill.
Then I played stp over 1 of his creatures, forcing him to draw 3.
Then he had 1 card in his deck.
Then I passed.
He drawed the last card of his deck, but he cannot kill me in that turn.

DECKED! :cool:

[NQN]

Sounds very unrealistic and strange, but if it´s right: Congratz^^ Where can the top8 lists be found?

[VonDoom]

Sounds very unrealistic and strange, but if it´s right: Congratz^^ Where can the top8 lists be found?

Here's the link to lists

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12274

[rockout]

@Rockout, 2 wastelands IMO is pushing it since personally I like to be able to shoot some wastes at my opponent's mutavaults/factories when I'm playing against something like merfolk, rock or the mirror. Any thoughts?

It hasn't been a problem so far. Running less wastelands gives me another basic and forces me to play tighter which I am ok with. I also run vindicate.

[GGoober]

@Rockout: I've been running 2 Wastelands and find it to be color-optimum with 4 Factories and 1 Ruins. I find that 8 cololrless sources is too much and 7 is barely pushing it and optimal. I would rather have 4 Factories than 3 Wastelands since I have detracted from LD as a strategy in Landstill. I also run Vindicates in the maindeck. Are we both doing Vindicate and Wish in one build? I might be the only person testing that list. It has been good sometimes although I feel that a pure wish build maybe better, but having both Vindicate and Wish has not created too huge a problem. In fact, it's made my solutions more flexible in the MD.

[rockout]

I'll post my list after this weekend. I stand by what I said above. Granted I was drunk and got back from the casino really fucking late it still makes sense.

[Ectoplasm]

It hasn't been a problem so far. Running less wastelands gives me another basic and forces me to play tighter which I am ok with. I also run vindicate.

I just love the idea of being the king whenever someone drops a standstill, be it me or my opponent. Getting trampled by mutavaults isn't my idea of being the king :frown:
Factories go medieval on vaults but they can get wasted from the other side of the table :rolleyes:

I dont know :) Playing just two wastelands feels a bit like stretching it.

[mossivo1986]

Not sure I like the 1x random Vendillion Clique in there. I'd much rather like it being either

-The 4th Spell Snare
-3rd Cspell
-Another DoJ
-Cut it for 60 cards

It just seems like you could be running much more helpful cards in that slot.

I have tested the fourth snare in that slot and it is relivent. It does haunt me sometimes.

Vendillion clique is in this deck and continues to shine because of how it shines with my playstyle. I like the soft counter premises that it has and I also enjoy the random win against many decks in this format because they either can't stop it or they've mutilated themselves to a point in racing for damage that all of a sudden it becomes a tempo race. Catching your opponent off gaurd with eot vendillion when they are tapped out and then following it up with an elspeth is GG most of the time; and this is where vendillion is truly better then counterspell as it acts as a multi tasking threat. The other thing that should be mentioned is that it does have synergy with counterspell and virtually every other card in the deck at some point or another in virtually every match. The worst case scenario is that you side it out against the stronger point removal decks in the format that run cards like fire/ice.

[mossivo1986]

@Moss:
I played "your" list but with 60 cards, 4 brainstorm and 4 Snare and 8 SB cards against RG and STILL lost to it...How do you win if you f.e. don´t get an early swords/snare?

Your not being clear enough for me to understand what your list is or what "r/g
decks your referring to. Be a bit more specific.

If your talking about burn or zoo both matchups depend on your hand. It's not something you can just wing with any hand.

Burn you have to protect your life total by making them waste their burn spells. Once you protect yourself with snare force backup against POP and fireblast then its time to go for wish pulse and end the game quickly. This matchup is incredibly important to get as many plains and islands as you can possibly handle.

Zoo is a variable archtype. Your removal suit needs to be 2-3 strong in your opener with low cc draw spells. Don't be afraid to take some damage to stp some critters in order to drop that standstill. Make sure to see if they run POP or fireblast. If they run either of those it's going to be obvious that they are more burn heavy; and if this is the case wish for pulse wins easily. Zoo has one distinct problem with their model and that is that they can only draw burn land or threats; so if you stop the threats they can only burn you out. This is where wish for pulse ends the game. Theres also a variety of sideboard options for this matchup but it REALLY depends on what model they are playing.

I wont go into any more in case im wrong about which matchups your talking about but I figure this is a good start.

[maggot870]

@Rockout: I've been running 2 Wastelands and find it to be color-optimum with 4 Factories and 1 Ruins. I find that 8 cololrless sources is too much and 7 is barely pushing it and optimal. I would rather have 4 Factories than 3 Wastelands since I have detracted from LD as a strategy in Landstill. I also run Vindicates in the maindeck. Are we both doing Vindicate and Wish in one build? I might be the only person testing that list. It has been good sometimes although I feel that a pure wish build maybe better, but having both Vindicate and Wish has not created too huge a problem. In fact, it's made my solutions more flexible in the MD.

hey guys,
I'm relatively new to this deck, the printing of elspeth made me pick up this deck ^^. And I pondered out a list so far with Cwish and Vindicate aswell( I our thoughts, since I like having a flexible deck as Legacy is the most Diverse Format in Magic and I've got no real home meta, so I'm curious about other opinions on such a build, since I'm not 100 % sure about it yet, especially the SB. The list I tryed so far is the same with these changes: -2 Cwish +1 ETutor +1 Vendilion Clique -Tolaria West + Eternal Dragon -1 Plains +1 USea -1 Humilty + 1 EE. I'll explain my choices on the bottom of the list, here we go:



// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [GUR] Island
3 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UG] Plains
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [EUL] Swamp (1)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TE] Humility
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [MM] Counterspell
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Response

I know the Dual/Fetch Constellaion looks odd, but tbh I just got those and no money atm to buy the missing ones, also I'm often lucky with my colored-land drops so I can deal with that :P.
Also I pondered to add 1 Tropical in a Black Slot to get :g: for EE for 4.
4 factories 2 wastes 1 ruins -> 7 colorless are enough, especially with a Tolaria as 24th Source. I Tolaria West fits here since I have only 1 EE in this build and TW can get you a factory or wasteland for Crucible

SDT > FoF since the top is just much better in this deck since you can ensure more land drops under standstill.
2 Humility 1 EE, sadly can't find a spot for the 2nd EE
Crucible of Worlds -> I think IF it sticks it's 90% of the time a nice long time tool just as SDT and isn't said on our namesake "take your time" ? :P.
Sideboard is just pretty Standard atm I think, I'm not sure which spell to cut in the Disenchant slot, both seem to be very nice but I tend to play Return to Dust since we're not the only ones running ARuins :P. So there's 1 Slot left, and I'm not sure If a Path #2, pate #2 or tormod's/relic # 2, or maybe another Card ? Some cards I also have in consideration: Misdirection, FoF ( only SB as wish target),

Ok, I hope all I should tell is told, and now I'd like to hear some of your thoughts !

[mossivo1986]

I would like to point out that if you are new to this thread, you should probobly read at the very least the primer before posting as it would save you some time and questions.

I would also like to point out that we should probobly establish finer tuned for people to see and ask questions, instead of just post list and ask for help. Why not just check out better lists and test yourself. Saves us the work of having to answer a multitude of questions.

[NQN]

Well, I cutted Disk, Relic and Clique for Brainstorm and Snare.
R/G means Goyfsligh with Hellsparks and a white Splash for Nacatls.
I won game one but then failed at getting ANY pointremoval in g2+g3.
I´m just wondering how your feeling is against those decks because you cutted two cards which are, in my opinion, very important to beat it (SS and BS)

[GGoober]

Your build seems to suggest that opposing LD is rare since you're resolving much more 4cc spells. In the right meta (aggro, non-wasteland meta) your deck will do superb. In general, 1EE is too little, and EE is your only way out against Bloodmoons and many other troublesome cards. Unless you're playing Intuition Landstill, don't run less than 3. You can run 2 but I advice not to. Relic is simply amazing and it's funny to see people board in relic against you because unlike what people think, Landstill isn't about recursion. That's ITF for you.

Personally, I've loved and hated Vindicte in wishbuilds. When my meta was more zooinfested without Wastelands, Vindicate was golden, giving me additional threat removal and ability to cut them off their forests so cat and apes were 1/1. But the past 2 weeks, my meta has begun to include TOO many LD decks, therefore Vindicate sucks. Play Vindicate if your meta allows you to hit 3 colors consistently, otherwise it's a dead card.

[mossivo1986]

@Cr78:

Why are you so worried about LD? Outside of stifle/wasteland the format really doesn't have alot of focused LD.

If you fear it so much run top: It solves all your land needs.

[GGoober]

Lol moss, my meta is INFESTED with LD right now. 5/8 or 6/10 decks have LD as their main strategy. I apologizing for bitching on this forums about this unusual meta. I wished my meta was more Landstill friendly. At least my bitching about LD can give advice to those who play against it :P Yupp, Top ensures my Landdrops against such decks.

[rockout]

If I was in that meta, I'd just run 6-8 basics and Eternal Dragon and proceed to laugh at them. Teferri's Response is a interesting choice in a meta like that. The first time I saw teferri's response I immediately went out and bought a playset. Granted, I've used them it, it's a good way to fight that meta. What part of the country do you like in crz?

[GGoober]

I actually used Teferi's Response 2 weeks ago for fun, and it shores the LD matchup like crazy. I was going to run 2 in the SB again last week but decided against since I thought my friend was going to play Elf Survival and Zoo, but they ended up playing Team America and Pox lol. So sad.

I stay in Houston, TX, USA. We've got a nice Legacy scene finally in the last year or so. The meta is not too representative of the current one. Our meta hates playing counterbalance, but there's always the ANT player and a couple of Zoo players, mostly aggro, some enchantress once in awhile, and me the control player. I might pick up a homebrew Control Slaver deck for next week or maybe play 6 StP in Landstill MD with 2 Wishes and more basics.

[VonDoom]

my meta is INFESTED with LD right now
Sacred ground anyone?
Karmic Justice stinks?




R/G means Goyfsligh with Hellsparks and a white Splash for Nacatls.
I won game one but then failed at getting ANY pointremoval in g2+g3.
No Perish?
No Path to Exile?
No Powder Keg?
No additional Humility//Moat//Abyss//whateverniceagainstcreatures ?



IMHO, you're losing a lot of slot in MB and SB due to CWish and other nice-to-have, while seems that you have lost the focus on the core business: keep the part of the table in front of you clean!

I also tried fancy cards, but what is needed here is steadiness.
Nothing else

Eg. Vindicate.

Vindicate is powerful, while a pithing needle is more versatile (and also recyclable through ruins), and The Disk could quite do same things, for colorless mana.
Vindicate REAL ADVANTAGE: it destroys also PWalkers and Lands
Question: do we need to destroy lands or PWalkers?
I don't think... so I use a needle, more versatile, recyclable and tutorable.

[NQN]

I boarded 3 Paths, 1 Perish, 1 Blue Blast and 2 Ajanis alongside with 4 swords 2 Wish 3 EE MD... It´s not that I don´t play enough removal ;) Well, actually I believe I just got unlucky and wanted you to prove me right so I can forget that tournament :P

[Elf_Ascetic]

I've run Vindicate for a pretty long time now, and I'm over it.

Vindicate is perfectly fair. He trades 1 to 1, costs 3, is a sorcery.. Landstill shoudn't use fair cards. Standstill is unfair, and so is Elspeth. All the removal is unfair, except for Vindicate. I'm running a Cunning landstill with MD Crucible now, and with succes. (5-0-1 in the last tourney, with 1 ID when I was 4-0. Won against UGR Thresh, Dragon Stompy, Zoo, ANT and Merfolk). Cunning Wish is even better at doing Vindicates job. It removes creatures at instant speed, kills 2 nasty Arti/Enchantments, and does some other pretty amazing stuff as well. I rarely used Vindicate to destroy lands, only when it had no other use (vs ANT or so). Now that Vindicate is Cunning Wish, the decks feel so much stronger.

@ The guys who run both Wish and Vindicate: It is overkill. I've tested it. Just run 4 StP, 3 WoG (or 2 and 1 Humility), 3 EE and you should be fine.

@ NQN: With that sideboarding, you either was unlucky or made horrible mulligan and play errors..

[VonDoom]

I boarded 3 Paths, 1 Perish, 1 Blue Blast and 2 Ajanis alongside with 4 swords 2 Wish 3 EE MD... It´s not that I don´t play enough removal ;) Well, actually I believe I just got unlucky and wanted you to prove me right so I can forget that tournament :P

:eek:

If you believe in Karma, to balance the "luck" you had, you're probably going to win the lottery AND to date with Megan Fox

Or..... you're Donald Duck, but that's another story.... :tongue:

[maggot870]

Sacred ground anyone?
Karmic Justice stinks?




No Perish?
No Path to Exile?
No Powder Keg?
No additional Humility//Moat//Abyss//whateverniceagainstcreatures ?



IMHO, you're losing a lot of slot in MB and SB due to CWish and other nice-to-have, while seems that you have lost the focus on the core business: keep the part of the table in front of you clean!

I also tried fancy cards, but what is needed here is steadiness.
Nothing else

Eg. Vindicate.

Vindicate is powerful, while a pithing needle is more versatile (and also recyclable through ruins), and The Disk could quite do same things, for colorless mana.
Vindicate REAL ADVANTAGE: it destroys also PWalkers and Lands
Question: do we need to destroy lands or PWalkers?
I don't think... so I use a needle, more versatile, recyclable and tutorable.
Vindicate destroys those problem permanents where as needle just stops them and puts a big sign on your board named "Grip me for the win" and permits you to put a EE on 1,. Also Needle can't act as a critter removal, although (€:vindicate) is slow and clunky compared to PTE / Swords. And color screwing your opponent is a nasty but legitimate way to control him/her IMHO.

@ Elf_ascetic : As you maybe read I work on a wish + vindi list, and I already agree with you, that you waste some space as some spots are occupied multiply, I tryed to avoid that in finding other wish-able cards, but this is still my problem with this build, and I probably go back to vindicate OR wish too.

[NQN]

@ NQN: With that sideboarding, you either was unlucky or made horrible mulligan and play errors.

Well, my opening seven in g2 were:
3 Basics, 1 Fetchland, 2 Brainstorm 1 Top On the Play. I Think this is a keep.
WHen I died I had 4-5 lands in play and 3 Mishras left on the table.
g3 I had nearly the same but without top so I tried to mulligan this time. It all ended up with me unable to cast either Ajani nor Pulse.
I played AT LEAST 30 times against Goyfsligh at tournaments and since I´m playing LS over 1 1/2 year now I don´t think I made relevant mistakes at all :)

PS: I strongly believe I´m more of a Donald Duck...Whenever I´m lucky, misfortune strikes back twice :/

[VonDoom]

Vindicate destroys those problem permanents where as needle just stops them and puts a big sign on your board named "Grip me for the win" and permits you to put a EE on 1,. Also Neelde can't act as a critter removal, although it's slow and clunky compared to PTE / Swords. And color screwing your opponent is a nasty but legitimate way to control him/her IMHO.

Critters are not so a big problem, if they're tiny, I've 3 nice EEs for them, if they're big, I've 4 nice StPs for them.

As I pointed out, the "only" problem is "how to remove opponents PWalker"

These nice guys from Wizzy just printed for us Planar Cleansing.
Test it before discarding, just 1x.... it will get you rid of all these vindicates :tongue:

As the Elf_Ascetic wrote, we use only unfair cards, 1x1 gives no advantage at all... it's too fair :mad:

[Citrus-God]

Critters are not so a big problem, if they're tiny, I've 3 nice EEs for them, if they're big, I've 4 nice StPs for them.

As I pointed out, the "only" problem is "how to remove opponents PWalker"

Vindicate? EE? Pithing Needle?


These nice guys from Wizzy just printed for us Planar Cleansing.
Test it before discarding, just 1x.... it will get you rid of all these vindicates :tongue:

Vindicates at least get around Force Spike effects.


As the Elf_Ascetic wrote, we use only unfair cards, 1x1 gives no advantage at all... it's too fair :mad:

Yeah... umm... you know, 6 mana is no advantage at all, you know? Sure it will net you a 1 for 1 at least, but the fact it's 6 mana blows.

[FoolofaTook]

Vindicate gives you the kind of leverage you need when you're trying to make the iffy counter decisions that happen all the time with a control concept. The fact that it can hit all permanents means that you can parse very carefully the must-counter situations and hold counters for the points at which you'll likely lose the game if you don't have a counter in hand. The fact that it also hits lands just puts it over the top in a deck where handling the opponents land-based threats can be essential.

[mossivo1986]

P.S. It is feasable to run vindicate in the relic slot in the Team Awesome Wish Still list I presented.

Crz87: In an ld infested meta just run my model, but switch the crucible to the main and the relic to the side. This should help you tremendously if it's pure ld. If its a loam meta then dont change anything.

[mossivo1986]

So apparently Geoff (Konsultant) and Micheal (Rockout) both top 8'd in hadley's last tournament. Exciting to see these kind of results.

Edit Excuse me that makes 3 landstill's in the t8. Apparently Konsultant's teammate was in the t8 as well.

[FoolofaTook]

I'd be curious to see the lists. The Planeswalkers have really brought Landstill back from the dead.

[GGoober]

I played many games against 4c Balanced Thresh the past few days. The deck does not have a favorable matchup against Landstill. If you get EE@2, it's gg for them, especially with Ruins. I'm playin 2 Ruins, 2 Waste, 4 Factories at the moment and it's been good since I have a higher chance of EE lock.

Elspeth is amazing. 4c Thresh has no outs against her. My friend has clique but even then, it was not enough to deal with Elspeth and the removal this deck has. Playing with 6 StP maindeck felt good, especially in setting up turn 2 Standstills on the draw when you stp them before your turn 2. However, it makes the deck more susceptible to Couterbalance. I noticed myself trying to counter Counterbalance when I usually just ignore it in the Vindicate builds. Against any non-CB decks, I'm sure that 6StP is great even against Chalice@1 decks since you have Spell Snares and EE to deal with Chalice.

[mossivo1986]

Landstill has been more successful lately because:

a. Some of the best pilots playing their favored archetype just win.
b. The meta-game has shifted (opinion).
c. Wish still in particular has diversified itself due to the changes in speed and archetypes in the current meta-game.
d. This diversity has allowed Wish Still to move towards an even longer drawn out position battle and win games based on 2 factors
d1. It's incredibly consistent in performance (Still)
d2. It now has a slow roll combo with the addition of Disk.

Overall I truly believe this diversification of the sideboard
Negate>BEB
Path> slower less interchangable removal
disk+elspeth's final>Aggro/mid-range aggro/control decks.

has truly changed the approch that landstill takes. We are no longer waiting for a decree or a mishra in the late game. we are waiting to get a board lock; which to be honest changes things DRAMATICLY.

The one thing that helped and hindered wish still in perticular was the m10 rules. Because of M10 you can no longer remove a force of will with relic and wish for it; however pulse of the fields is a bit better simply because of the elimination of manaburn. this is all quite substantial but once again the bottom line is that land still has changed it's direction from a late game decree win to a late game board lock.

Hope that helps.

<3 moss.

[FoolofaTook]

The UWb list I'm fooling around with is having lots of fun Extirpating Tropical Islands off of Cunning Wish and watching Threshold just die, especially the UGR Tempo builds. The smart players keep a fetch on the table at all times and fetch a trop in response to Cunning Wish. Even then the game gets grim for them because one Wasteland without a Stifle in hand and they're screwed.

[mossivo1986]

Pating lands seems win more in lists that arn't running vindicate + wastland.

[frogboy]

The UWb list I'm fooling around with is having lots of fun Extirpating Tropical Islands off of Cunning Wish and watching Threshold just die, especially the UGR Tempo builds. The smart players keep a fetch on the table at all times and fetch a trop in response to Cunning Wish. Even then the game gets grim for them because one Wasteland without a Stifle in hand and they're screwed.

What if they ever drew two Trops, or, God help you, had a Breeding Pool in their 60?

[rockout]

Spam to post a tournament report without a list. GREAT!

Top 8 at Hadley yesterday. 27 people.

I went 3-0 and drew into top 8.
I beat UG merfolk 2-1. He drew 4 goyfs game 1. I drew lots of removal and plagues games 2 and 3.
I then beat Survival Elves 2-0. He goes for natural order + progenitus. I play humility. I block progenitus with factory :cool: . Game 2, I had double force most of the game and kept survival off the board. 2 Plague + Humility seals it.
I beat tempo thresh 2-0. Game 1 I get to 3 life and he's at 19. I have elspeth in play and waste his trop and volc and he doesn't see bolt. At one point he cliques me two turns in a row, first gets sworded, second he takes my ee and I draw vindicate off the ability. I win with recurring threats and disk. Game 2, I get recurring disk and elspeth seals it up fairly quickly.

So many complains swirling around me about people hating landstill, Well, I hate merfolk/ichori, so you stop playing those, I'll stop playing landstill.

Top 8:
Tariq (spiderfreak) 0-2 First loss to the mirror in tournament play. Sucks.
G1: He draws a whole bunch of win conditions.
G2: I walk decree into ee @ 0 when trying to kill his elspeth. I don't see vindicate either game.

// Lands
2 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [TE] Humility
2 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Yes, it's 61 cards. Extirpate was good all day. Negate was good against landstill. Obviously plague is amazing. Path kind of blew like I knew it would. Tutor was amazing. An onlooker saw me trying to wish for a plague in my sb :cool: I was merely looking at it wishing I could. I need more draw. Tariq and Geoff were both running 3 FOF and that was just brutal. I couldn't stop the advantage. I don't run really any draw anymore. I'm cutting jace for another fof and moving my spells around to run the 4th bs or standstill. I didn't get land or color screwed.

[mossivo1986]

Im suprised path blew as running the combination you did against merfolk you ran 17 removal (Correct). I could have swore running goyf in Merfolk was a bad idea (Consensus from pheonix ignition)

I do understand why you fealt you didnt have enough draw against the mirror. Realistically you didn't play enough draw anyways. I would like to know how you got handled in the mirror. Isn't all you do in your case is draw Vindicate counterspell negate spell snare force ee and just sitback until you get a favorable board position. Why do you need to counter FOF? What do they play that can really hurt you other then elspeth or decree or possibly crucible? Does CA really matter against those models specificly versus just having the right kinds of protection? In the mirror did you side in 1 of your paths, 3 negate, 1 pate, and possibly any relics to deal with dumb dragon/ crucible/recuring b.s.?

[FoolofaTook]

What if they ever drew two Trops, or, God help you, had a Breeding Pool in their 60?

Real possibilities all. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all for the matchup, just that it's a win when you get it - and that happens often enough to be more than a side case. The UGR Tempo Threshold builds that play just 6 fetches and 8 duals alongside 4 wasteland have a weakness in the mana base that most decks don't get a chance to exploit. A Breeding Pool is probably the right answer to mitigate the problem some. Most Canadian threshold variants don't pack one at the moment.

[mossivo1986]

Rather then worry about their mana base why not just answer the threats present (goose, goyf) and win the game.

[GGoober]

@Rockout, Great job on the results and report! As a Vindicate-wishstill hybrid, I'm excited to see your build and even more excited to see VERY slight changes to the list. Here's my list that I have been tweaking and discussion:

// Lands
2 [UNH] Island
3 [b] Tundra
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [b] Underground Sea
1 [b] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [b] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [TE] Humility
2 [JGC] Vindicate
1 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [VI] Mystical Tutor
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [SOK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [JGC] Counterspell
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TS] Return to Dust

Changes that you see is I don't run 1 basic swamp in the MD and have opted to risk the 8th colorless in the form of the 2nd Ruins. This maybe suboptimal again but since this build is more possible on Disk/EE recursion lockdown, I think the 2nd Ruins is in particularly useful. Thresh scoops to EE recursion if they do not have an answer, and it's huge against Zoo and tribal decks as well.

I am happy to see EDragon played again. And I've been tinkering with the 61 cards. I want to see if you think the same as me, i.e. that EDragon fulfills the 61st slot, acting like the 24th land. Many of us have tested 22/23/24 lands and found that it was landlight/optimal/landheavy. 23 Lands does give some mana issues around 10% of the time with our heavy colorless base, so EDragon as the 24th landdrop in a 61 cards seem to shore the consistency for me, at least for me. Not to mention it's also a late-game win-condition, and acts like Crucible + Fetchland in the late game.

Other changes to our list is the exclusion of Jace + 1 Counterspell in the MD for me to run 2 Tops. I still think that Top > Jace in terms of card quality, but I can see how Jace is going to shore the control/aggro control matches. Top IMO is better simply because it's easier to play and it is not situational on the board position.

The last change to my list is playing 1 Mystical Tutor over the 4th Wrath. I found that 3 Wrath + 1 Humility effect isn't needed (3rd wrath = Disk). I liked 2 Wrath + 1 Humility, and I'm still a fan of MTutor in testing the Vindicate/Wishstill hybrid. MTutor allows you to grab Decree/Wrath/StP/Counterspell/FOW/BRainstorm/Wish/Vindicate/Spell Snare/Fact or Fiction. WTF? Everything? At least in my testing, it's the silver bullet that acted as the 3rd Decree, 2nd Wrath, 5th StP, 3rd Counterspell, 3rd FOW, 4th Brainstorm, 3rd Wish, 3rd Vindicate, 3rd Spell Snare, 2nd Fact or Fiction when I needed it. If you refer to my sideboard, I can also now play 1 Extirpate MD and 1 in the SB, 1 Negate in the SB and 1 Negate + 1 Counterspell in the MD against combo since MTutor fetches 1 copy in the MD, technically making the pseudo number of copies increase.

[rockout]

I run dragon as the 61st card. I originally dropped it to add two jace two fof then decided to run wish and it's been good so far. The vindicates are an absolute necessity. Anytime its in my hand I get a sense of calm knowing that it can kill whatever I don't like. I am lacking draw but I will not run top. I want card advantage in the form of standstill/fof over card filtering all the time. It's my play style and I'm sticking with it.
Mystical seems kind of odd. I saw Geoff running it and I can't say I wasn't that impressed but then again he seems to place higher than me 90% of the time. It's your pseudo 2nd wrath of god. Think of it this way: if mystical tutor was your 2nd wrath and you drew mystical tutor after already using your 1st wrath, what do you have then? Nothing, same goes for any other card you want mystical tutor to "replace." I can't see ever running less than 2 wrath of gods, that's 2 actual wrath of gods. Not mystical tutor, humility, or disk taking that spot.
I'm glad I didn't run return to dust. It would have been awful and a waste of a slot. Granted I ran an extra path in that slot and it was worthless so worthless is as worthless does I guess.

I need to run the 3rd vindicate and up my FoF count and test that for the next week or so before the legacy events at GP Boston.

[spiderfreak]

// Lands
2 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [TE] Humility
2 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


hey man sorry i had to beat you in top 8 i would like to all landstill in top 4 - top 2.

Its hard to play both C. wish and Vindicate cuz its the same card slot but if I were to play both it would be this

1 Tolaria West
1 Aavademy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice - I like 3 D.O.J. but it looks like your doing ok with 2
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God - i like 3 w.o.g. but maybe 3rd C. wish

3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

-------SB-------
1 Return to Dust or Tormod’s Crypt
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Extirpate
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Negate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Humility

I would like to see the 3rd C. wish in here somewhere, but like I said its hard to play both

[rockout]

I tried the 3rd vindicate but sometimes the 3rd vindicate should be the 3rd ee in the list your posted. Granted, the 3rd ee is the 1 disk in the list you posted. Not too sure, it's going to require a lot more testing over the course of the next few weeks. I know come the large tournament in November at Vestal, NY I will be running a rock solid list. See you in the top 8 :wink:

[FoolofaTook]

Rather then worry about their mana base why not just answer the threats present (goose, goyf) and win the game.

It's just that their mana base is so fragile against a deck packing Wasteland and Vindicate, and having the option to resolve the game once and for all if they can't counter Cunning Wish is a huge cherry on top of the sundae.

Once you ditch their green mana they can't win. It's a favorable matchup anyway unless they draw a very disruptive start and a clock to go with it, however it's a 100% win once green is gone.

[rockout]

Im suprised path blew as running the combination you did against merfolk you ran 17 removal (Correct). I could have swore running goyf in Merfolk was a bad idea (Consensus from pheonix ignition)

I do understand why you fealt you didnt have enough draw against the mirror. Realistically you didn't play enough draw anyways. I would like to know how you got handled in the mirror. Isn't all you do in your case is draw Vindicate counterspell negate spell snare force ee and just sitback until you get a favorable board position. Why do you need to counter FOF? What do they play that can really hurt you other then elspeth or decree or possibly crucible? Does CA really matter against those models specificly versus just having the right kinds of protection? In the mirror did you side in 1 of your paths, 3 negate, 1 pate, and possibly any relics to deal with dumb dragon/ crucible/recuring b.s.?

I boarded in 1 relic, 1 pate, 3 negate. It's Michael not Micheal. I'm not a homosexual.

[Enigma]

For people that wanted to see a primer of Ultimate walker, here you go:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14269

(Please post your comments and tests. It would be really great.)

P-M

[GGoober]

Tournament 19: 07/19/09
1st: Chris Z with UWb Wishstill
2nd: Eddy with EXTENDED DORAN
3rd/4th: Teddy with Monowhite Weenies and John with Merfolks

Participants:
Chris - UWb Wishstill
Teddy - Monowhite Weenies
Drew - Imperial Painter
Silas - BG LD
Joey - MBA
Lil' Chris - Psychatog (Wishtog?)
Eddy - Extended Doran
John - Merfolks
Jason - The Rock

cant remember the last guy damnnit!


DECKLIST AND REPORT:
Lands: 23
2 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
2 Island

Win-conditions: 5
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice

Card draws/tutors: 12
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor

Permission: 21
3 Spell Snare
2 Counerspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nev. Disk



Report:
GAME 1: Lil' Chris with Psychatog

Lil' Chris built Psychatog but wasn't optimized and he had no experience with the deck so it was very easy to play against. There's not much here except to mention that his deck was unfocused and only had Psychatog as the win-condition, so Landstill did what it did with the removals and card advantage. Opposing Shackles did slow the game down a little.

2-0

GAME 2: John with Merfolks

Match 1:I cheer in joy in SB EPlague last minute suspecting tribal Merfolks and another tribal in the deck. I figured at least EPlague can do SOMETHING. The rest of the field wasn't GY/combo based so I didn't have to dedicate as much.

I open a hand with 2 StP, Brainstorm and Snare and EE with 2 lands. He's on the play and plays Vial. I let it pass. I drew into Standstill, and I snared a LoA instead of playing EE@1. I then played EE@1 and passed the turn, nuking Vial, following up with Standstill. He breaks standstill and plays out a ton of threats and I'm facing a board of 2 Reejerys, 1 LoA and 1 Curse catcher. I resolved Humility and he swings me to 4. I top deck wrath and reset the board. Following, I stabilize with Decrees chumping his swinging field and swung for the win with SDT filtering my draws.


Match 2: -1 Counterspell, -1 Decree, -2 Standstill, +3 Plague, +1 Path
He opens with Cursecatcher as I sighed in relief even keeping a FOW for his possible Vial. I play Strand go, he drops another curse catcher and mutavault and swing in. The next few turns, I drew into Disk/Elspeth and I played greedily as I baited my StPs into Dazes/FOW to run him dry on countermagic. I resolved Disk and reset the board. He counters Elspeth with FOW and I Wish->Pulse and start gaining back to 16. Another Humility seals the game as Factories get in there.


4-0



GAME 3: Eddy with Extended Doran
Match 1: I am happy with my choice of 6 StP instead of 4StP/2cates. StP/path is much faster in setting up Standstill on turn 2 while on the draw since you can Path/StP EOT turn 1 and resolve Standstill. It's nice playing against a non-blue opponent since you don't have to worry about delaying Standstill against possible dazes. Game 1 was a beating as I stabilized against early Doran/Bobs, and chained into 3 Standstills, drawing 3 FOW, snares, StP and cycling for big decrees (6 soldiers) and beating for the late game. Eddy's Extended Doran is really fast though, and is comparable to legacy lists if you swap the shocklands for duals.

Match 2: -1 Standstill, +1 Path (I did this because I was on the draw so turn 2 Standstill isn't that likely, so I wanted to see Standstill later in the game. I usually do this configuration if I'm on the draw since Standstill on turn 2 on the play is strong, but not on the draw since that option is usually not accomplishable).

I had a VERY strong hand against his deck: 2 StP, 1 Path, 2 Strand, 1 Ruins, 1 Elspeth. I kept him off his board for 3 turns, Stping 2 Doran and swording Goyf. However, I missed my 4th landdrop and in the 3 turns, I drew: Disk/Elspeth/Wrath. I continued to miss landdrops and ended up facing against his board recovery of 1 Doran, 1 Goyf, 1 Hierarch, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Treetop Village.

I had an EE set @3 and another one that I was going to set @2. I decided not to play the EE@2 since I only had 4 mana out and he discarded Disk/Elspeth via Thoughtseize. If I had set EE@2, I could have blown up his field and needed to topdeck Stp/Path for his Treetop Village and possibly Hierarch beating in for 3 turns. I was too worried Goyf is going to grow so I left Factory to block. He didn't end up swinging for lethal so I could have set EE@2. At this point, I realized that if I was a good MTG player, I would have tried to fake a removal in my hand, and proceed to play EE@2, making him think I have StP in hand and not swinging in for lethal. Since I didn't block with FActory, playing that EE@2 on that turn would have made use of the mana better, but there's no saying that he wouldn't swing for lethal. This made me realize that faking and bluffing is an art in MTG. I'd have to improve my skills in that.

Game 3: I can't remember this matchup but he beat me because of bad draws.

5-2


TOP4
GAME 4: Teddy with monowhite Weenies

Match 1: It was ruthless as I chained into Standstills while Pathing/StPing turn 1 EOT to drop turn 2 Standstills. He extended his board with 2drosp and I EE them away, drop Elspeth and swing in for the win.

Match 2: Didn't pay attention to game 1, so I didn't know what to name for EPlague. I ended up boarding in EPlague since I knew he ran Soltari Priest, mother, True Believer and I think they were Clerics. Otherwise I can always name Human. +2 EPlague, -2 Standstill (he plays vial, once again Standstill on the draw isn't good on turn 2, but rather late game. Stabilizing is more important).

I got a good hand and kept FOW, Snare, StP, 2 Lands, 1 Standstill, 1 EDragon. I FOW Vial as expected and he lands a Mother, EOT I StP her and drop Standstill. Teddy was amazed at how much hate I proceeded to draw. Once again, EE@2 cleared the board, and Wrathing Serra Avenger and Mother to cycle for 6 soldiers and beating with 2 Factories sealed the game.

7-2

TOP 2
GAME 5: Eddy with Extended Zoo
Match 1: I'm confident I can beat him and knew I lost to missing land drops despite keeping a 2-land hand. Those loses aren't avoidable. Match 1 was similar to our previous match 1, with me recurring EEs and chaining Standstill until he ran out of answers and I had permanent board control. 2 Soldier tokens + 1 Factory goes the distance.

Match 2: -1 Standstill, +1 Path
He apparently kept a 1-land hand and I kept a hand of 1StP, 1 Standstill, 2 Snares, 1 Top, 2 Lands. I proceed to play Top + Standstill while keeping mana out to snare him on his turn 2 which he missed a land drop. We drew for a few turns and I got an early topdecked factory so I started beating. He dropped his land and thouthseized me, taking Snare and I wastelanded his Bosk. He luckily drew into 2 more lands and played out Doran, Goyf, all of which got StPed. I land Humility and he wanted to concede and played on. I pathed an incoming Treetop, drop standstill and continued the war, cycling Soldiers and he blows them with EE. We stalled for more and he built up a board of 1/1, while I wrathed next turn (he runs grips post-board so I don't want to risk it). Elspeth seals the game when I have EE recursion online.




9-2

Comments: 2 Ruins felt right. Out of 13 games, I encountered drawing 1 Ruins with a Ruins in play. Chances of drawing 2 Ruins isn't high, and it speeds up EE/Disk recursion. Disk has been good, although against green you're more prone to Grips (no choice though). EDragon as the 61st slot proved again to be most optimal from my last tourney. It was never a dead card since it's your land, and it's a possible win-condition. The deck ran smooth with such a 23.5 land i.e. 24 lands in a 61 card deck feels like 23.5 land in a 60 card deck.

MTutor fetched a needy Wrath today, but otherwise was not needed. It was still a good slot when I was winning and I thought of situations where I would have needed it and I feel more secure with being able to tutor up and answer. Return to Dust was useless, but I kept it in since Drew was playing Imperial Painter. 1 Extirpate should be enough, and I should have done that unless I face the combo matchup. Overall, the deck performed well, and against fast decks, 6 StP/Path is the best way to go provided you run 4 Standstill since it justifies the strategy to path turn 1 EOT and put Standstill on turn 2. I've done that many times today. 3 Standstill on the draw is optimal but 4 on the play is strong with 6StP builds. If my meta had more combo/Dreadstill/Thresh, I would play 2 Vindicates, but today, I faced none of those so Vindciate wasn't needed to deal with creatures/Countertop etc.

[NQN]

To continue the "spam", heres another report from a tournament I participated in at saturday.
37 players, 6 rounds, duals for top5, me playing this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [FNM] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
1 Circle of Protection Red

I cutted Jace for Fact since he didn´t do ANY good in the past two tournaments. FoF was amazing all day long.

Round 1 Wr Boros Dice: Me
G1:He beats me pretty quick. When I´m at two life I wish for Pulse, drop Humility when I´m at 10 again and proceed to win.
+3 Path
-1 DoJ
-2 CS (maybe) He was more a WW with a red splash actually.
G2: My grudge strikes again: Whenever I board Paths, I don´t get ANY spotremoval. As if thats not enough I sit on 3 lands for two turns and he drops a bunch of creatures. When I´m at five I finally get my fourth land and go for a nice 4:1 trade. From that point it´s easy.
1-0 2-0

Round 2 U/W Vial Fish Dice: Him
G1: He starts with Vial and dazes my attempt to land an EE@1. A Mage sneakrs in naming Stop and I´m slowly falling back. With my fifth land Humility enters play and immediatly defeats him. As always, from now on I just have to find any WinCon.
+3 Path
-1 Swords
-1 SS
-1 CS
G2: A Grunt strikes twice but when Humility enters play he is defeated again because his only "out" are two E.Truths.
2-0 4-0

Round 3 Cunning Still (Mossivos List) Dice:Me
G1:The first action comes from him with a Clique on turn 4, stealing my Elspeth. I sword it and we proceed with draw-go until he manages to resolve an Elspeth (I had only a bunch of Spell Snares). I got her down to 1 counter three times, but he draws Explosives when my token would´ve killed her next turn and since I don´t have any instant removal left, the flying abiliy just got me.
+2 Ajani
+1 CoW
+1 PtE
-2 Wog
-2 Hum
G2: He´s screwed at two lands while I get the nutz draw. I trigger his SS at EoT when he already has 7 with FoF, it resolves and he gets to discard some stuff. He forces my first Ajani, but the second resolves as planned, followed by CoW, Elspeth and EoT Decree. This is obviously enough and he dies exactly when the turns are called.
2-0-1 5-1

R4: Faerie Stompy Dice:Him
G1: He mulls to four, I proceed to win.
G2: I´m screwed at three lands with two Wraths in Hand. I Wish for PtE and then make the worst mistake ever: I play both paths during my turn instead of his upkeep. He gets to 5 lands and goes for hardcast Force when I get my fourth land :/
G3: We trade big creatures for removal until his board is empty and I have 10+lands and top in play. He starts to play slower. When turns are called he´s at 20. I pump one of my tokens, wanting to attack. He plays Pestermite which I answer with Force. Then we get into discussion if I attacked him or not, but the Judge proves me right that my intention was 100% clear. In the third turn I play Decree for three Angels and because he hasn´t FoW, I attack him for exactly 16 on extraturn 5. phew :S
3-0-1 6-2

R5: 4c Landstill Dice: Him
His list contains zero basics, zero Waste effects, Lftl and only 1 Elspeth.
G1: We go draw,land,go until I have 5 lands left in my library. I lure him and he taps out, so I can wish for Pate and steal his Forces.
The whole game comes down to one turn, where I try to Dustbowl a Factory at his Endstep and he responds with a DoJ for several tokens with Standstill onboard. I play Wrath and just attack with Factory, since he was at 1 :S
A wrong timed DoJ costs him the game :)
G2:I remove his forces again, "counter" his Ajani with a copy of mine, drop Elspeth and Standstill afterwards. At this point he had only 1 Mishra onboard. He draws into two additional Mishras and I have to break my own Standstill.
Allthough he tries anything, Elspeth just doesn´t die and so do I.

4-0-1 8-2

Round 6 against a good friend with Rgb Aggro-Loam Dice:Him
If I win, I´ll get a bb Taiga.

G1: He gets the nutz draw with 4 Chalice, double Assault, Loam+wasteland from turn 4 on.
+3 PtE
+2 Ajani
+1 CoW
+1 Pate
-2 Wog
-2 Humility
-1 DoJ
-2 C.Wish
G2: Same. I mull to 6, have to Force a Wish but he´s got the second. I sit at two lands with double EE in hand and just watch how he proceeds to win.

4-1-1 8-4

I end up fifth netting a Plateau which is still fair for 5€ entry fee.

I never boarded Plagues, Perish and Cop which is actually pretty good for me, since it means I never had Merrows or R/g Beatz in front of me.
I expected a lot of Bant Aggro but Perish were useless as well.
I really like the list as it is, but in another meta I´m gonna play 1 Clique as well. Still, I took about 8 mulligans in 6 rounds which is very VERY high for me. What is your avg. number?

Cya,
NQN

[LostButSeeking]

I did a lot of testing this weekend, and generally sucked it up. My fault, more than the deck’s. It’s a tricky deck to play, and you need to hope that the right face is forward, depending on what you’re playing against.

You’re on the play. You lay down a land and pass. They play Sensei’s Divining Top. Do you force? You have the mana open for daze, so that’s not an issue. If they force back, well, you’ve drawn out a force, card parity. If they don’t, then they have a much more difficult time fixing their draws. But is it worth the force? I did it both ways, and lost both times, but I was wondering what you guys thought.

[mossivo1986]

let top live. live to force another day

[Tinefol]

If this is counter top deck - let it live. If this is heavy control deck like Mighty Quinn, or Train Wreck, that doesn't have much other filtering/manipulation I would most likely force.

[LostButSeeking]

Dreadstill. The worst of countertop and tempothresh together. Wasteland is just hideous. Hate that card.

[mossivo1986]

Dreadstill's main focus is to beat us up on a bad draw or go for the small beats. The better players will not overextend with naught, and thats also partially why they've cut naught back a slot.

[GGoober]

I seldom force Top even though it seems like a good idea to make them "topdeck". Top is a great card but if you've forced it, they'll probably just drop another. The only time I would force Top is when they mull to 5, and look distraught and then relieved, that's the hint that they have a 1 land hand and Top. But a good player will fake that hand and you end up with 5 cards in hand as well.

I would save Force against things that the deck really cannot do e.g. like Armageddon. Against Countertop, it's better to FOW CB than Top to be honest. Top sticking is good for them, but doesn't hampen you since you have all that removal (artifact/enchantment/creatures) to deal with what they play with Top filtering. If you countered top, you have one less out to their threat. Top doesn't net them cards so you don't have to worry about them dropping multiple threats, but if you FOWed top, you have one less answer against something troublesome, not to mention losing another card (possibly a spell snare/standstill). Even though Landstill ignores Countertop, we're still susceptible to it, i.e. StP/Snares all become less useful, and the virtual card advantage given by CB is annoying even with Blind flips. I won't FOW a CB but if I were to pick which to FOW: CB or Top, I'd go with CB just in case it sticks and kills your StPs, therefore forcing you to rely on EE for outs against Goyf, and no outs against Tombstalkers (not sure if Tombstalker is even played in Countertop decks lol, I think Bob is, but I played my version of Countertop with Tombstalker + Dreadnought aka Dreadstalker).

Who here would still play with 4 Standstill MD? (assuming a balanced meta i.e. not a vial-heavy meta) I like 4 Standstill in builds with 6 StP maindeck since you can very easily drop Standstill on turn 2 consistently after StPing turn 1. In Vindicate builds, I might play 3, and focus on a less speedy but diverse playstyle. I find myself boarding the 4th Standstill on the draw (see my report) but playing 4 Standstill on the play. I'm not sure if I want to lose the 4th Standstill on the play by playing 3, but it seems justifiable since you may not always play first game 1.

[FoolofaTook]

Dreadstill's main focus is to beat us up on a bad draw or go for the small beats. The better players will not overextend with naught, and thats also partially why they've cut naught back a slot.

I think the main reason they've cut back PD is that they're playing goyf. That puts a lot less pressure on them to make the early 12/12 call. I still fear Dreadstill more for the potential turn 2 combos (early naught or countertop) than anything else. Adding goyf to the mix has just made the deck obscene in that if they don't have the early win they still likely control the board by turn 4 or 5 at the outside.

@LostButSeeking

Never counter anything unless it's going to kill you. As others have pointed out in a deck that uses CounterTop it's not the tops that will kill you it is counterbalance that you need to keep off the board at all costs. In Quinn you need to keep the top off the board because it is his draw engine and that draw engine will kill you. I disagree a little bit with the people who ignore counterbalance with Landstill. It's still the best way for the opponent to conserve his counters so that the stuff that really matters gets countered by hard counters. Shutting down StP/PtE is enough to make counterbalance a real hazard to the deck. Throw in Spell Snare and Counterspell and a big part of our solutions curve is managed by one permanent on their side.

[GGoober]

@FoolofaTook: Exactly with Countertop. The thing to note that Countertop DOES NOT shut this deck down, which is a huge plus to play this deck against Countertop decks in the first place. The argument that Standstill is 2cc and snares is 1cc should not detract you from playing them against Countertop. This deck easily deals with Countertop with EE@2 while making its cmc@3 or 4 to dodge Countertop. It's not Countertop that kills the deck, but the threats backed with Countertop protection that actually hurts the deck.

Countertop isn't a problem, but starts becoming one if you don't have a quick answer (EE/Vindicate/Wish) for it and moreso when they put a threat out, making your StP close to worthless. But it's nice that this deck isn't killed by Countertop, compared to other decks such as Zoo/Burn/Goyf Sligh/combo/mirror Countertop.

[mossivo1986]

I <3 you frog boy. FYI let me finish editing the post before you delete it please.


<3 and kisses
-Moss

[VonDoom]

Who here would still play with 4 Standstill MD?

I'm old school :tongue:

Top? Here we've one reason for that that nice needle MD :laugh:

[Misplayer]

@FoolofaTook: Exactly with Countertop. The thing to note that Countertop DOES NOT shut this deck down, which is a huge plus to play this deck against Countertop decks in the first place. The argument that Standstill is 2cc and snares is 1cc should not detract you from playing them against Countertop. This deck easily deals with Countertop with EE@2 while making its cmc@3 or 4 to dodge Countertop. It's not Countertop that kills the deck, but the threats backed with Countertop protection that actually hurts the deck.

Countertop isn't a problem, but starts becoming one if you don't have a quick answer (EE/Vindicate/Wish) for it and moreso when they put a threat out, making your StP close to worthless. But it's nice that this deck isn't killed by Countertop, compared to other decks such as Zoo/Burn/Goyf Sligh/combo/mirror Countertop.

You're still better off Forcing it (Counterbalance) if you have the option, rather than try to play around it or through it. What if they can flip for 3? You just lost your out you thought you had. You really have to draw nuttily to win with an opposing CounterTop on the board.

What really sucks is that they don't have to Force back. Losing CounterTop is no-big-deal for them and at the same time resolving it is a huge boost. Good players will save their hard coutners for when they drop Dreadnought and need to protect it for 2 turns.

[VonDoom]

You're still better off Forcing it (Counterbalance) if you have the option, rather than try to play around it or through it. What if they can flip for 3? You just lost your out you thought you had. You really have to draw nuttily to win with an opposing CounterTop on the board.

What really sucks is that they don't have to Force back. Losing CounterTop is no-big-deal for them and at the same time resolving it is a huge boost. Good players will save their hard coutners for when they drop Dreadnought and need to protect it for 2 turns.

Our bombs have all cc of 4.
This means that you've to flip that nice faerie, and as far as I know you're not playing so many.

Last resort... did anyone ever played an EE with 2 counters, but paying it 6?
I did :wink:

[LostButSeeking]

Our bombs have all cc of 4.
This means that you've to flip that nice faerie, and as far as I know you're not playing so many.

Last resort... did anyone ever played an EE with 2 counters, but paying it 6?
I did :wink:

But swords and path both cost one, which is problematic if they resolve dreadnought (which is more likely because of the counterbalance, because CS costs 2). Elspeth fears the fear-nought, even if she doesn't fear goyf.

His stifles and wastes also serve to keep me dangerously low on colored mana, making an EE dodging counterbalance much more difficult. Maybe its different if all they're playing is goose and goyf or whatever (there isn't anyone in my area with either Tempo or Countertop, the only guy with the cards is Mr. Dreadstill) , but it is imperative against dreadstill that you are able to remove the dreadnought.

[Misplayer]

CB/Top negates many of Landstill's early game answers. Turn 3 CB/Top + Turn 4 Goyf can often spell GG. Their mana disruption + Daze is a beating when trying to resolve a hope-and-pray Wrath or Elspeth to stave off death. Don't even think about coming back it if they have 1+ Factories, or Stifle for EE. Bottom line, and early CB/Top followed up by a threat is fucking difficult to beat with Landstill. They have answers for all of our answers, plus the ability to apply pressure.

[VonDoom]

But swords and path both cost one, which is problematic if they resolve dreadnought (which is more likely because of the counterbalance, because CS costs 2). Elspeth fears the fear-nought, even if she doesn't fear goyf.

His stifles and wastes also serve to keep me dangerously low on colored mana, making an EE dodging counterbalance much more difficult. Maybe its different if all they're playing is goose and goyf or whatever (there isn't anyone in my area with either Tempo or Countertop, the only guy with the cards is Mr. Dreadstill) , but it is imperative against dreadstill that you are able to remove the dreadnought.

I TOTALLY AGREE with you that Counterbalance should not enter the battlefield!

On the other side, I'm quite happy if he will reserve his stifles on our fetchlands, instead on his shrimp.

Having said that, every landdrop for us is a step to the win.
If we can count more than 5 lands on the battlefield, we're going to win :tongue:

[mossivo1986]

We shouldn't be talking about the following cards:

Counterbalance
Top
spell snare

These subjects have been thoroughly gone over plenty of times and really just read the previous pages in the thread to get where the current state of these cards are.

We should focus more on specific builds and new tech versus old crap thats like beating a dead horse.

just saying....
-MoSs

[Koby]

7/23 lands that tap for no color mana + dependence on EE = NOMBO!

How the hell do you people manage to not get color screwed by all those non-color lands?

[GGoober]

Test the deck out yourself. To keep it short: Keep lands with at least U/W and Brainstorm/top both help in ensuring color fixing.

[Koby]

And opening hands with Wasteland + Mishras and none others?

Auto-Hymn isn't a viable strategy last time I checked, and neither should it be with a control deck with limited card drawing. Wasteland is starting to become the most easily cuttable card I'm finding.

[Misplayer]

Cutting Wasteland weakens your game under Standstill considerably. You don't want to weaken your game under Standstill.

[Ectoplasm]

Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.

[FoolofaTook]

And opening hands with Wasteland + Mishras and none others?

Auto-Hymn isn't a viable strategy last time I checked, and neither should it be with a control deck with limited card drawing. Wasteland is starting to become the most easily cuttable card I'm finding.

You mulligan hands with no colored mana about 99% of the time. You get these hands about 10% of the time. The odds on mulling to 6 without seeing a colored land are under 2%.

The only mana situation that happens to me often enough to be an issue is trying to put together 2 white mana against real mana denial. Even then the decks that are trying to do this are mostly decks that I can live against with 1 white mana in play for quite a while.

Finally, if 16/23 is not working for you then go to 17/24 and add an extra Plains or on-color dual to the mix. This deck can run anywhere from 23 to 25 lands and do quite well. It's a meta choice basically as to how much land you run because the deck's effect will come out effectively anywhere in the 40% range.

[Citrus-God]

Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.

This is how you win games against Merfolk.

Edit. That and Spell Snares. Spell Snares are money against that deck.

[rsaunder]

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

[Citrus-God]

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

I tested the deck without Standstills... let's just say it can be very interesting.

[ultimoman]

Has anyone thought of cutting the E. Plagues? In my experience, the tribal to worry about is Merfolk; unfortunately Plague isn't easy to use against them. Not only is it not easy to fetch for a swamp, you likely need to wait until at least turn 4, in which case they probably have at least 1 Lord effect out. They also use Echoing Truth or Wipe Away, and now more are splashing green for Krosan Grip.
I'm not as sold on Engineered Plague as I once was. Without it, Black is still likely the color to use, perhaps just for Extirpate alone.

Instead, perhaps using additional Paths, Negates, Pulses, Relic/Crypt, or even Counterbalance could now be options.

[FoolofaTook]

If you cut Standstill completely you're definitely changing the character of the deck a lot. No more explosive early starts off of a Mishra's, Wasteland and Standstill. There's also a lot of pressure on the rest of the deck to be highly efficient because there are no sudden card windfalls after you've gained tempo in the midgame either. Ancestral Visions is a pipedream in this deck because if they land Counterbalance you will never resolve it and they can land Counterbalance after you suspend it. Late game you still have Fact or Fiction but that's late game.

[NQN]

Allright, here´s another short summary of a tournament I played.
This weekend I have the PLGSTW Legacy upcoming and because of that I decided to give some choices a chance to prove themselves.
This was the list, pretty close to Moss`:


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon <- Got screwed pretty often lately
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God
3 [5E] Brainstorm <- The number still hurts my logic :S
1 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus <- Expected at least 20% Loam.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile <- never get them when I board 3.
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate <- for testing
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red < last minute change


R1: bunchoflands.dec (43landbase but with Intuiton,Confidant and VIndicate)
G1: This was a epic fight. We traded removal for manlands, dust bowl activations for r.ports and combat steps against lifepoints. He vindicates my first Elspeth just when she was at 8 but I manage to remove his first loam with Relic and extirpate the second right away. After all, I have only 5 cards left, already used Elspeths ulitmate and tapped out every turn because of Tabernacle. My final "army" was Dragon,Clique and 7 Soldiers which was totally needed because of his 3 Maze of Iths. I win at 1 lifepoint with 3 cards left in the library :=)
1-0 1-0

R2: Dutch-Staxx
G1: I start with Top, he with a first turn Trinisphere. He fails at putting any pressure on the board and throws a Mishra into some swords. I drop Elspeth, remove Trinisphere+Mox via Return to Dust and nail his last lands with Dust Bowl. He conceeds:
+2 Negate
+1 Extirpate
+1 Crucible
+1 Relic
-2 WoG
-1 Humility
-2 Swords
G2: He gets off the gates with double Trinisphere. I go for EoT Fact into Standstill,CoW,Elspeth,Extirpate,DoJ. He gives me a pile with Crucible AND Elspeth which immediatly won the game after I countered both Oblivion Rings.
2-0 3-0

R3: RG Goyfsligh
G1: Since I´m able to remove the first 2-3 creatures and find a Wish in time after then, I win easily.
+4 PtE
+1 E.Tutor
+1 CoP:Red
-1 Humility
-2 WoG
-2 DoJ
-1 X
G2: My opening seven had Tutor, basics and some brainstorms so I kept. I tutor for CoP in the face of Lavamancer and Goyf. In response to my Circle he burns me down to 8. Goyf beats me to 4 and I don´t have any answer in hand. But I rip path and send Goyf to Exile. The following Nacatl is answered by another topdecked (:P) Swords and from then on he is helpless against CoP. Interesting Sidenote: Had to Force an early Sulfuring Vortex pitching Cunning Wish. meh :/
3-0 5-0

R4: Merrows with b2b MD
G1: Allright, I´ve already written to much for such a small tournament. So long story short, he gets a slow start but with a strong midgame. He gets B2b and I might loose at some rate but since his manlands can attack only once under B2B I win at 1 life. Phew :>
+4 PtE
-2 C.Wish
-2 SS
G2: Crap Draw looses against lotsa creatures.
G3: I get ~5 Sword effects+some Explosives and Elspeth which is enough for his draw.
4-0 7-1
Picked my reward, Hellspark ELemental, and traded it immediatly for a cigarette.Nice.

Some conlclusions:
-Dragon as 61st card was awesome and has always done his job well
- CoP is awesome if you play against good opponents
- Didn´t got a chance to cast one Negate
- Fact is still a LOT better than Jace

so far,
NQN

[Holo_rip]

cutting standstill is not that a bad idea. I really hate to be tapped out on turn two. The format is filled with two drop that we must answer (the most scary being counterbalance and dark confidant for this deck). Thus, swapping the standstill for another draw engine can make sense. I have tried accumulated knownledge, but it is slow without the intuition engine.
I've also tried ancestral vision, and i foud it even more clunky than standstill in this deck.
I'm at the moment playing more jace and more fact or fiction in this slot. It is kinda slow but still, it draw card like mad.

[rsaunder]

I'm at the moment playing more jace and more fact or fiction in this slot. It is kinda slow but still, it draw card like mad.This is about what I've been running. 2 FOF, 2 Jace, 3 Brainstorm, 2 SDT for me. No vision. When I topdeck my draw I don't want to wait four more turns to draw cards. I've really been enjoying the early game card selection and late game super-heavy card advantage.

@Citrus God: What were your findings without standstill? If I remember correctly you still play it, why is that?

@ Plague: I've been considering cutting it for other solutions too. My first choice was to just outright change the splash color to support Pyroblast. Boarding in so much spot removal that doubles as 1 mana counters in counterwars seems pretty tech for that matchup. The manabase would have to be worked for a heavier splash though... 1 plateau, 3 volc perhaps.

[Misplayer]

I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.

Check these out (one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334196&postcount=1466) and two (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334258&postcount=1471)) and let us all know what conclusions you draw from your testing.

I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.

[VonDoom]

I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.

Oh Yeah!

This is also the reason for us to have 100+ pages of discussion.

I discovered it some months ago.

I was "studying" the sideboard, t understand what change, in which situations.

At the end, I 've found that there are just some cards that are never sided out.
Lands (and it's obvious), counters, bstorms, crucible, etutor
This mean, in my case, that I've 20 customizable cards --> 33% of the deck is "tunable"

WOW !!! :eek:

I really love this deck ! :wink:

[Koby]

@Engineered Plague,
I found this really useful in my metagame vs. Elves, Merfolk, & Goblins. I can usually force a concession out of Elves by dropping this card, I can stymy Goblins, and mixed results vs Merfolk. This card along with Humility is just plain sick however, and is definitly a highlight of my day when I pull it off.

However, the lack of a basic Swamp hurts against the Goblin matchup where Wasteland and Blood Moon (it's a screwy meta...) come in to punish bad mana bases.

[VonDoom]

@Engineered Plague,
I found this really useful in my metagame vs. Elves, Merfolk, & Goblins. I can usually force a concession out of Elves by dropping this card, I can stymy Goblins, and mixed results vs Merfolk. This card along with Humility is just plain sick however, and is definitly a highlight of my day when I pull it off.

However, the lack of a basic Swamp hurts against the Goblin matchup where Wasteland and Blood Moon (it's a screwy meta...) come in to punish bad mana bases.

I played in a tourney against Sligh
A winning condition was the EPlague calling for Elemental !

No twice hellsparks, no Ball Lightnings !!!! 1x8 !!!!

It's good also against Ichorid!

Keep it in !

[ultimoman]

It does indeed have its moments..I'll probably cut it down to 2 or maybe even 1 as it can be tutored for if needed.

[Misplayer]

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?

[ultimoman]

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?

I suppose it really depends. You pretty much said it. Although I think the amount used is a factor. As a one of, then Prop is possibly better overall. 2+ and Plague is likely better for a more permanent solution.

[Romanus]

How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?

Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.

Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)

Thoughts?


E. Plague is just pure better, but it does depend on your meta. With goblins around I love the plague, as it makes so many of his drops just useless. Lackey, Fanatic, Matron and War Marshall all die instantly. 16 Cards made useless to your one.

E. Plague can turn into silly card advantage while Prop. is more of a tempo play. If you see a lot of tribal play plague, but if you are facing things like Zoo, Thresh, Ichorid, ect Prop. is a better pick, for all the reasons you list.

In a blind Meta I would use plague. Goblins and Merfolk are everywhere.

[FoolofaTook]

Propaganda is an inherently flawed solution unless you have some way to keep the opponent from just continuing to drop lands and attack. Merfolk and Elves get shut down by it because they have no way to get rid of it easily and they really depend on mass attacks and over-run. Goblins and Zoo will just REB it and keep going a lot of the time so it doesn't represent much of a guarantee against them.

EP gives you a tangible benefit (-1 damage per attacker) as soon as it lands. This can easily walk you out into WoG territory and a reset. Propaganda on the other hand encourages the opponent not to over-extend, since excess creatures will just sit still anyway. You sweep them and they drop 3 creatures the next turn and the turn after are attacking for real damage again.

[Wynk]

I used to love EP but with the advent of +1/+1 lords in goblins, elves, and merfolk, EP is not as game changing as it once was.

As Propaganda is inherently vulnerable to REB in Goblins and Zoo, wouldn't ghostly prison be a less vulnerable on color alternative?

[rockout]

Propaganda forces your opponent to alpha strike you by building up their board eot gripping/bouncing your propaganda then killing you. Plague on the other hand kills what's on the board with 1 toughness and stalls your opponent until he finds an answer then begins to build his board.

Plague > Proganda most of the time except ichorid. Then it's usually reversed.

[Koby]

Propaganda does not stop people from directly attacking your Planeswalker, so this is inherently weaker with Elspeth out.

[FoolofaTook]

Propaganda forces your opponent to alpha strike you by building up their board eot gripping/bouncing your propaganda then killing you. Plague on the other hand kills what's on the board with 1 toughness and stalls your opponent until he finds an answer then begins to build his board.

Plague > Proganda most of the time except ichorid. Then it's usually reversed.

I get the other thing happening to me with Propaganda lately. They just keep sending one creature over with an Exalted bonus and bolting or otherwise removing my Mishra's if I try to use that as an answer. It's frustrating because there's a lot of bleed-through damage and they don't over-extend while they do it. Double Propaganda doesn't even stop the bleeding most of the time, it just further encourages them to build up their hand so my first sweeper is immediately answered with a new wave. The exception is Merfolk which has no medium beater to send until they are very over-extended with Lords and the like, and which also really likes to keep some mana open.

Propaganda only buys me a little bit of time to find Humility and even then my life totals are lower than I'd like them to be so I'm trying to find Cunning Wish to recover.

With EPlague I take similar damage but they have to over-extend to do it, and they're coming as hard as they can because they're worried I'll drop another plague and sweep them.

Agreed on the Ichorid point.

[NQN]

Plague is just better. It´s always a 1 for 1 and often even better where propaganda effects just stall. But imho everybody understood it, lets walk to the next card ;)

[rsaunder]

Check these out (one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334196&postcount=1466) and two (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334258&postcount=1471)) and let us all know what conclusions you draw from your testing.

I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.I personally don't think CB+Top is the way to go with non-standstill landstill, if nothing else bacause there would be less than 10 2cc cards in an already land heavy deck. I tried to get it to work for so long, but to no avail. I've got to run really soon, so I'll just post the list I'm starting work with for now. Comments or anyone wanting to volunteer testing time (I'm swamped with work and not sure how much I'll be able to get in) are totally welcome.

EDIT: That sounded bitchy for sounding bitchy

4 STP
2 WOG
3 EE
1 Humility
4 FOW
2 Clique/Counterspell/Forbid
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace
2 FoF
2 SDT
3 Brainstorm
2 C. Wish
2 Relic
2 Elsbitch
2 DoJ
4 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Strand
2 Delta
3 Factory
2 Ruins

SB:
2 P2E
2 Negate
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 pulse
1 FoF
1 Return to Dust
1 Urza's rage [McUntested]
1 Fire//Ice [McUntested]
1 Humility
2 Firespout

Red can be exchanged for black, I just wanted to run this idea through the gauntlet too.

[Romanus]

I personally don't think CB+Top is the way to go with non-standstill landstill, if nothing else bacause there would be less than 10 2cc cards in an already land heavy deck. I tried to get it to work for so long, but to no avail. I've got to run really soon, so I'll just post the list I'm starting work with for now. Comments or anyone wanting to volunteer testing time (I'm swamped with work and not sure how much I'll be able to get in) are totally welcome.

EDIT: That sounded bitchy for sounding bitchy

4 STP
2 WOG
3 EE
1 Humility
4 FOW
2 Clique/Counterspell/Forbid
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace
2 FoF
2 SDT
3 Brainstorm
2 C. Wish
2 Relic
2 Elsbitch
2 DoJ
4 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Strand
2 Delta
3 Factory
2 Ruins

SB:
2 P2E
2 Negate
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 pulse
1 FoF
1 Return to Dust
1 Urza's rage [McUntested]
1 Fire//Ice [McUntested]
1 Humility
2 Firespout

Red can be exchanged for black, I just wanted to run this idea through the gauntlet too.


I ran something similar to this and though I like it black is still better than red.

Firespout in the board might as well just be Wrath 3+4. The ONLY reason I see playing red in landstill is for REB and Ajani Veng. Ajani is ok, but does not end the game like Elspeth does. He's a win more. REB from the board is amazing, but having access to Vindicate and E. Plague make black by far the best splash color.

I tried having black and red in my built to have a wide toolbox, but my mana base was always one wasteland or two from a total manascrew. I am running UWb and doing so much better now, mostly due to Vindicate.

[Citrus-God]

This is about what I've been running. 2 FOF, 2 Jace, 3 Brainstorm, 2 SDT for me. No vision. When I topdeck my draw I don't want to wait four more turns to draw cards. I've really been enjoying the early game card selection and late game super-heavy card advantage.

My draw suite is similar as well; it has 3 BS, 3 FoF, 3 SDT and if 3 Cunning Wishes count for wishing for FoF, than I have 12 draw spells.


@Citrus God: What were your findings without standstill? If I remember correctly you still play it, why is that?

I never really mind that I tapped out on Turn 2 and all to play Standstill, but the reasons why I cut Standstills was because it didnt help me find cards to help me get back into the game and the maindeck manlands and Wastelands were killing my opening hands; I just didnt like losing games because I had to mulligan. But SDT in the long run is a superior card to Standstill in the long run; it always fixes your hand and you can easily cycle through your deck.

[mossivo1986]

I ran something similar to this and though I like it black is still better than red.

Slightly for now yes.


Firespout in the board might as well just be Wrath 3+4.

No, just no. Although firespouts dead against goyf its alive against most of the rest of the format. Basicly what your saying is that you just done like red. Thats ok but dont say it mine as well be wrath 3-4. If your going to say that then I mine as well say it should be disk 2-3 or 3-4 depending upon build. Now how stupid does disk 3-4 sound? You need to realize that in my example im simply slowing your sideboard tech down by a turn, which is exactly what you did to the other poster.


The ONLY reason I see playing red in landstill is for REB and Ajani Veng.

Thats because you've seen ultimate walker and are a new poster to these forums I guess. Burning wish is actually the reason for the red splash not veangent or REB. Though REB is tempting its not better per say then negate.


Ajani is ok, but does not end the game like Elspeth does. He's a win more.

He's a tempo play not a win more. That's completely ridiculous that you'd say that.


REB from the board is amazing, but having access to Vindicate and E. Plague make black by far the best splash color.

Once again negate is far better then reb, and vindicate really isn't as sexy as all the hype makes it out to be. Its efficient, its cheap, its still worse then wish in every single way except that wish costs you an addition 1/2 to full round to cast said threat.

Also news flash black is not by FAR the best splash color. Green is incredible with the use of forbid life from the loam combination lock seed spark in the side for wish as well as other various changes. Check the ultimate walker thread for a list. Its pretty fucking sexy to intuition for loam package.


I tried having black and red in my built to have a wide toolbox, but my mana base was always one wasteland or two from a total manascrew. I am running UWb and doing so much better now, mostly due to Vindicate.


Vindicate has nothing to do with making your manabase any better. If anything your mana base would have been terrible before and just gotten alittle more efficient.

[rsaunder]

I haven't really formed an opinion on the standstill vs. no-standstill debate, since I decided to throw two experimental variables into the mix at the same time, but I do feel that the red splash is a strong choice. Honestly though, if I could go UW and still have EE be fully effective, I'd be tempted to go that route.

The merfolk matchup is where the splash has really shined thus far (I haven't done any work with the mirror, but I feel like it'll be rather amazing there too), with more sweepers and extra spot removal+counter. I'm 7-3 in post-board games at the moment, with two of the losses due to obnoxiously strong early game tempo. Game one's have also been a tad stronger, I definitely didn't miss standstill here. Fact or fiction rarely resolves though, most of the advantage in this matchup comes from SDT and jace. The 2-of ruins is also big.

I don't feel the need to play Vengant... yeah he's cool, but I wouldn't cut another planeswalker or really anything else for him. I'm already running a bare minimum of draw and permission to fit in the pair of relics and maintain the 24 mana-5 card quality-60 cards balance that's been working so well for me. I don't want to turn the deck into "Ultimate Walker."

[Citrus-God]

I haven't really formed an opinion on the standstill vs. no-standstill debate, since I decided to throw two experimental variables into the mix at the same time, but I do feel that the red splash is a strong choice. Honestly though, if I could go UW and still have EE be fully effective, I'd be tempted to go that route.

If you want to form an opinion on the non-Standstill list, you should definitely play with Standstills first. The playing style for the non-Standstill lists are a lot more complicated and less forgiving without Standstills, so building card advantage while you're winning is less likely to fuck you up because of said card advantage. If you had something like Jace, SDT or FoF, you have to think with those cards while you play it in place of Standstill in those positions. Also, you dont randomly win as often off 3 cards drawn on Turn 2 with non-Standstill lists.


The merfolk matchup is where the splash has really shined thus far (I haven't done any work with the mirror, but I feel like it'll be rather amazing there too), with more sweepers and extra spot removal+counter. I'm 7-3 in post-board games at the moment, with two of the losses due to obnoxiously strong early game tempo. Game one's have also been a tad stronger, I definitely didn't miss standstill here. Fact or fiction rarely resolves though, most of the advantage in this matchup comes from SDT and jace. The 2-of ruins is also big.

I havent tested Jace yet to be honest, because I have to protect him for him to make card advantage. That means I have to throw cards like Swords to Plowshares at trash like Cursecatcher just to keep him around. But FoFs for me has shined; it helped me dig for WoGs, make complicated decisions for my opponent and dug for Cunning Wish so I can cast Tsabo's Decree and bomb the board.


P.S. Have you tested Forbid as a wish target yet? I heard it's ballin' with FoFs and Jace.

[dearleader]

Hey all. I've been following this thread for quite a while now, and it's one of my favorite threads on the source.

I'm trying Forbid in the wishboard with 3 cunning wish, 4 force of will, and 4 spell snare MD. I've tried forbid MD in place of a cunning wish, but it felt clunky since it usually ended up being a cancel until i resolved a standstill or had mana to brainstorm to draw fodder. I usually wanted another wish in it's place. Having it in the wishboard (with 3 wishes) made late game wishes very useful, and then i could both pay for buyback and protect it against countermagic. I usually wait until I have 6-8 land before I consider paying the buyback - unless I'm going up against burn/sligh or something like that.

[Citrus-God]

I'm trying Forbid in the wishboard with 3 cunning wish, 4 force of will, and 4 spell snare MD. I've tried forbid MD in place of a cunning wish, but it felt clunky since it usually ended up being a cancel until i resolved a standstill or had mana to brainstorm to draw fodder. I usually wanted another wish in it's place. Having it in the wishboard (with 3 wishes) made late game wishes very useful, and i could then i could both pay for buyback and protect it against countermagic. I usually wait until I have 6-8 land before I consider paying the buyback - unless I'm going up against burn/sligh or something like that.

Some people, like Konsultant, play Counterspell as a wish target, it's just that Forbid just seemed like a better card in place of Counterspell usually, since you can also stabilize late game against randomness. Other than that, what you have to say about Forbid makes a lot of sense.

[whiteshepherdman]

I've been on the fence with humility vs wrath of god. For one wrath is a good sweeper but I've also found humility to be a good permanent creature hoser. When I was testing with Carabas he manage to land a natural order--> progenitus and i had humility in hand. Next turn i drop humility and has train is a removable 1/1. Also against things like merfolk and goblins it stifles their abilities.

My question is whether playing humility in sb is better and playing 2-3 wraths mainboard or if mainboarding 1 humility with 2 wraths is more optimal. 3 wraths does help to get pesky creatures like mongoose out of the way while humility only slows down the damage

[Ectoplasm]

I don't understand why everybody is so horny on playing forbid all of a sudden, and about the combination with loam, it seems cute enough but if it truly was as strong as people make it out to be, wouldn't ITF play it already?
Also I don't know how fond I'd be of dredging loam back multiple times, since you're forsaking 'normal' draws (and answers, sweepers and killcons) for the sake of getting a counterspell every turn, unless you have a jace out to help you pick up some cards.

I don't know. I admit I haven't tried it but the idea of running forbid and/or loam seems clunky at best.

[whiteshepherdman]

i don't like seeing forbid at all. Sure if you have a lot of cards to spare you can bring it back to your hand but more often than not your going to want the other cards in your hand as they're going to be your your swiss army knife to dealing with all the different threats of your matchup. I'd rather run counterspell and not bother losing cards to get back a cancel. If you have 3 mana using counterspell over forbid leaves you 1 mana to spell snare or swords to plowshare their creature and a possible standstill on turn 4.

[NQN]

Short story about me not top8ing the PLGSTW because of bad luck:
R1: Against the Rock. Epic Game which ends via Decree in the fourth extra turn.
R2: Goblins. G1: 12 Lands, 2 Spells. G2: 2 Lands, Wasteland on his side.
R3: ANT-> .shit. Won G2, lost game 3 in the fifth extraturn because a managed to get all the useless cards left in the deck and only 1 Counterspell->Out of Contention.
R4: Enchantress 2-1 He made some mistakes and I always took the advantage. Really bad matchup though.
R5: Eva Green. Suicide was never really impressive to me. 2-0
R6: Merrows with the new Lord. 4 Path 2 Plagues 1 TUtor of the board worked well. 2-1

-> 11/51.

4-2 total which is okay if you consider that I took 9! mulligans and won zero die rolls(and that there where at best 2 Threshold decks). But then again, Dragon was totaly amazing as 61st card but I´m still not sure about the Clique because I actually never draw her(?).
Against which matchups would you let her in the main?
Propably loam and any control deck but also against Goblins, Merrows or RG Beatz?

cya,
nqn

[FoolofaTook]

.
R2: Goblins. G1: 12 Lands, 2 Spells. G2: 2 Lands, Wasteland on his side.
R3: ANT-> .shit. Won G2, lost game 3 in the fifth extraturn because a managed to get all the useless cards left in the deck and only 1 Counterspell->Out of Contention.

With two rounds back to back like this I'd be kneeling at the altar of 60 cardness. And no, it probably wasn't any kind of factor at all in what happened but I'd be kneeling anyway. Figure out what to cut and do it. Just my opinion of course. :smile:

[dearleader]

I don't understand why everybody is so horny on playing forbid all of a sudden, and about the combination with loam, it seems cute enough but if it truly was as strong as people make it out to be, wouldn't ITF play it already?
Also I don't know how fond I'd be of dredging loam back multiple times, since you're forsaking 'normal' draws (and answers, sweepers and killcons) for the sake of getting a counterspell every turn, unless you have a jace out to help you pick up some cards.

I don't know. I admit I haven't tried it but the idea of running forbid and/or loam seems clunky at best.

Forbid MD is pretty bad. Forbid SB, if you have room, is pretty effective. Wishing for it is pretty useful against random matchups. Admittedly my meta is very undefined, but Forbid is pretty useful against random Stax decks, mirror matches, and even to guard against Cataclysms in D&T.

Loam does feel clunky. I've tried it with the green splash, but it's only effective in really narrow board positions, most of which are already beneficial to you. I felt a bit uncomfortable dredging multiple times, since I don't want to mill away my win conditions. The most useful situations I've had with loam was casting it early to hit my land drops. Also, I agree with wanting to draw stuff other than loam, even in the late game.


i don't like seeing forbid at all. Sure if you have a lot of cards to spare you can bring it back to your hand but more often than not your going to want the other cards in your hand as they're going to be your your swiss army knife to dealing with all the different threats of your matchup. I'd rather run counterspell and not bother losing cards to get back a cancel. If you have 3 mana using counterspell over forbid leaves you 1 mana to spell snare or swords to plowshare their creature and a possible standstill on turn 4.

For me, counterspell was frequently a late game play anyways. There were few things that 4 force and 4 spell snare couldn't handle early game, such as stifle-nought backed with countermagic. In these cases, I'd like counterspell, since you need every piece of removal available against stifle-nought. Otherwise, I never felt that counterspell was that much of a benefit early on.

I do use the swiss army knife approach in the early game. Forbid is not used in place of the swiss army knife approach, but instead complements it as a useful late game tool. Even in the late game, if I only pay buyback once, it's served it's purpose. With multiple fetchlands and STD's, I've often had enough extra cards to pay the buyback when I needed to.

[mossivo1986]

@dearleader


Forbid MD is pretty bad.

Forbid is not bad
- It's a cost effective soft-lock, hard if you run any kind of loam synergy /w.

- get's around the second best single permission spell in legacy (Counterbalance)

-also get's around the third best permission spell in legacy (Spell snare).

It's weakness is speed. It's not fast, which is why it's should be run as a singleton answer like most other non-efficient answers that land-still uses like say- humilty, disk, jace ect. ect.


Forbid SB, if you have room, is pretty effective.
You just said forbid was pretty bad. So your saying it's better used as a 3 blue 3 colorless counter spell soft-lock, versus giving it the third counter spell slot/ Vendillion slot? This is theoreticly in my opinion absurd. Theres no room in the sideboard currently for this many tutorable answers.


Wishing for it is pretty useful against random matchups.

Which is why you run negate over that specific choice. Negate is also superior to blue elemental blast in just about every scenario, but mostly for the universal answer approach.


Admittedly my meta is very undefined, but Forbid is pretty useful against random Stax decks, mirror matches, and even to guard against Cataclysms in D&T.
Once again you started off saying it was pretty bad, but now it's good. I'm awefully confused at where your coming from. Either it's good or it's not, and in the sideboard it's obviously not. I'd rather pay for intuition which nets loam wasteland forbid, or something of that caliber


Loam

Three words: Loam is good.



I do use the swiss army knife approach in the early game.


FML what on earth does this mean?


Forbid is not used in place of the swiss army knife approach, but instead complements it as a useful late game tool. Even in the late game, if I only pay buyback once, it's served it's purpose. With multiple fetchlands and STD's, I've often had enough extra cards to pay the buyback when I needed to.


You need to clarify this. You either love forbid or you don't. You either want a good utility lock or you don't.

[whiteshepherdman]

hmmm if you want to run forbid you might consider it as a singelton, i'd rather run vendillion clique than forbid if were talking about late game. You remove their threat in their hand and start hitting for 3. But ive been testing and running counterspell over both of these still seems the most consistent. A split between spell snare and counterspell with force of will for the early game feels like the best game plan. counterspell is good mid and late game and you can pitch it to force. I'd rather have flexibility over the buyback you get from forbid since each other card in the deck is just as powerful and can carry its weight in giving you control.

I've also cut cunning wish, I know, ITS GOOD, especially NUTS when you grab pulse of the fields, but i think dedicating those slots to something more powerful like fact or fiction/ vindicate is better. Fact lets me dig for what i want and get rid of what i don't want. Plus i get more cards in my hand =D.

I agree with rockout who said earlier that wasteland> dust bowl; sorry moss =P your still a great landstill player

My hardest matchup is tempo thresh, the most annoying thing ever when you fetch and get stifled. Can i get some advice on how to win against tempo thresh? I fetch for basics as often as possible yet goose and goyf plus a hand full of snares, dazes and forces prevents my sweepers from cleaning things up in time.