[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[whiteshepherdman]

Swiss army knife, i just meant ie. if your holding onto a swords to plowshare you might not want to pitch that to forbid.

[rsaunder]

My hardest matchup is tempo thresh, the most annoying thing ever when you fetch and get stifled. Can i get some advice on how to win against tempo thresh? I fetch for basics as often as possible yet goose and goyf plus a hand full of snares, dazes and forces prevents my sweepers from cleaning things up in time.Heh, I've just been working on this matchup all day. As it turns out, my best way to win the matchup is to play slowly, protecting your manabase and looking for land heavy hands. Resolving an early SDT isn't an auto-win, but it can play a huge role in this plan. Also, I'm sure you already knew that against Thrash, Wrath and Elspeth cost 3WW and STP costs 1W (and so forth).
When you drop an EE to deal with goyf, always play it for 3 mana to bypass spell snare and keep another mana open to protect against daze. It's worth waiting a turn to blow EE for protection. Chances are they've already blown their stifles on your fetches so I've found midgame EE rarely gets stifled. Also, Academy ruins is the jam.
Don't activate factories, almost ever. They eat bolts like no other and add to their land destruction suite.
Wish=>Pulse is amazing. If you see lots of tempo thresh where you play I really wouldn't cut it. Wish=>P2E is also amazing, since not many builds run basics.
For more specific scenareos, I've had good luck baiting wastes with factories and even moreso with ruins to pave the way for colored duals.

I haven't formulated an opinion on spell snaring ices tapping down my lands. It seems like a bad plan, since it's basically trading a counter from you for a random card from their deck. I think you just let that happen unless it's going to cut you off of double white and you NEED to wrath or whatever.

I've had bad luck sticking elspeths. It seems that burn just sits around in their hand 'till a good target comes up or they can go lethal, and elspeth is the BEST target for them. It usually eats two burn spells after producing a token, which is a good trade but doesn't win the game. Same story with Jace. He'll generally eat two burn spells too.

Resolving a decree seems unlikely. They usually seem to have a stifle sitting in their hand waiting for a target, so be ready to protect it.

EDIT: Now I can't find the post I responded to. Was this old?

[FoolofaTook]

The only logical reason to cut Cunning Wish is if you are running UWr and Burning Wish and just can't afford the slots in the sideboard for both. Cunning Wish is a stand-in for virtually every card you could possibly need after the midgame has been reached and its versatility and power is amazing as a result.

With a small wish board you get Pulse of the Fields, Path to Exile and Trickbind as a baseline, all cards that do exactly what you need them to when you wish for them, and covering a huge percentage of the meta between the three of them. Then throw in on-color options like Extirpate, and potentially Diabolic Edict in black, Krosan Grip in green, Blue Elemental Blast, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away in blue, and Enlightened Tutor in white and the card is clearly about as broad and powerful as a card gets once the midgame is reached.

If you put a Counterspell in the sideboard you further increase the flexibility of the deck and give yourself another out, because once you've gotten to the midgame you now have two ways to draw your fourth counterspell instead of one, and both of those ways can also create a win for you in several other ways also.

I just don't see how Cunning Wish comes out of UW Landstill without impacting the game one play negatively, and game one is the game you really want to win to avoid draw scenarios as you start to match up against other blue decks in the later rounds.

Edit: the other scenario I could see cutting Cunning Wish for is if you are running an Intuition engine with Life from the Loam, since Intuition and Cunning Wish take up the same slots in the deck.

[whiteshepherdman]

Hey rsaunder, thanks for the advice. yeah I drop EE with at least 3 mana if they have counterbalance in play, or just in case i suspect a spell snare, its so annoying when you're like "no way he can't" and you do it and he does play snare.

I'd like to test top more though since you can filter and get more lands if they really screw you. I asked konsultant but he thinks there might be better options for the 2 top slots, he said +1 brainstorm,+1 counterspell, or +vindicate. It also depends on your playstyle though.

There isn't a lot of tempo thresh in my area but I just want to be ready for it if it does come up since its a pretty difficult matchup

[rsaunder]

Hey rsaunder, thanks for the advice. yeah I drop EE with at least 3 mana if they have counterbalance in play, or just in case i suspect a spell snare, its so annoying when you're like "no way he can't" and you do it and he does play snare.

I'd like to test top more though since you can filter and get more lands if they really screw you. I asked konsultant but he thinks there might be better options for the 2 top slots, he said +1 brainstorm,+1 counterspell, or +vindicate. It also depends on your playstyle though.
I honestly didn't think Top would be all that when Moss started playing it, but now I'd never run a wish-based list without at least two. I don't think #3 is necessary, but it's probably a meta call. I've actually adapted my build around it a little bit, with a higher density of shuffle effects: 7 in 60 cards for 2 tops instead of 6 in 61 cards for 3 tops in Mossivo's list. I don't know how he does it, but hey, it's another viewpoint to consider. Play with it, see if you like it. I personally like running two and find it helps the thrash matchup.

@Foolofatook: My most wished for card, by far, is FoF. Followed by Pulse and P2E. I haven't even run trickbind or wished I had it, how's it been working for you?

[rsaunder]

Double post. Sorry.

[GGoober]

Split 1st/2nd with BUG ANT today in a small 10-man tourney.


Tournament 20: 07/26/09
1st/2nd: Chris Z with UWb Wishstill and Brian with BUG ANT
3rd/4th: Patrick with GBW Dueling Grounds control and Jeff with Elf Survival

Participants:
Chris - UWb Wishstill
Drew - Imperial Painter
Silas - BG LD
Joey - RGB Zoo
Lil' Chris - Elf Aggro (combo with umbra mantle and priest)
Eddy - UB Faeries
Jeff - Elf Survival
Brian - BUG ANT
Patrick - GBW Dueling Grounds control
????? last guy?


DECKLIST AND REPORT:
Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
2 Island

Win-conditions: 5
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice

Card draws/tutors: 11
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

Permission: 22
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nev. Disk


REPORT:


MATCH 1: Jeff with Elf Survival
Game 1: So Jeff is playing Elf Survival again, which I think it's really his trademark deck. The deck has gotten new rejuvenation with Archdruid, making Mirror Entity very deadly in the deck. I highly suggest and believe that any Elf Survival lists needs 3 colors to be competitive as it is. Mirror Entity just gives another win condition with all the mana acceleration. Anyway, here's game 1:

I kept a strong hand of Snares, Stp, and I believe Standstill. He goes with Llanowar into a lord I believe, which I StPed and played Standstill the next turn. He cracks Standstill with Priest and it resolves, and he carries on with baiting while I counter his Survival. The game goes on, and I can't remember much (played against 3 Elf decks today) but I think I won with clearing the board with Wrath before he starts beating my face with over 20 damage. Elspeth post-wrath sealed the deal.

Game 2: +1 Path, +2 Plague, -1 Snare, -1 FOF, -1 Decree
I can't remember much this game either but he overruns me with Elves, with a resolved Teeg creating more solutions that landstill can throw out. He finished me off with Entity/Symbiote/Priest combo, and I could almost stop it if I interrupt it with an StP on Priest/Mirror entity but even then, his creatures would be 6/6s, and I cannot survive the onslaught.

Game 3: +1 Path, +2 Plague, -1 Snare, -1 FOF, -1 Decree
This was a really close game. I countered a bunch of spells, pinpoint removed his lords, drop a Plague that kills Priest + Ranger, he follows up with Harmonic Sliver and then proceeds to grip my Wish->ETutor->Humility. It was my only out then and I could race in 2-3 turns with 2 Factories and 3 Soldiers from Decree. Finally I needed to reset the board by topdecking wrath and amazingly I topdecked something like wrath, but it was disk and it was a turn too slow.

1-2


MATCH 2: Lil' Chris with Elf Aggro
Game 1: His deck actually got a little scary when he had umbra mantle and priest out and I had no factory. But thankfully, EE@2 bought me some time and Elspeth + Standstill seals up the deal.

Game 2: -2 Spell Snare, -1 FOF, +2 EPlague, +1 Path
The game went easily since he didn't draw any lands after his first. I took the liberty to EE away his 1 mana elves and StP his Priest. Followed by 2 Vindicates on his 2 Forests, and beating in with 1 Factory until he drops to 6 and cycle decree FTW.

3-1


MATCH 3: Drew with Imperial Painter
Game 1: The last time I played Landstill v.s. IP with Drew was perhaps when we first met at Asgardgames. That was probably like 4 months back. I stopped playing Landstill at the time since it was too slow a deck (perhaps my inexperience but mostly because I didn't play with Decrees). I finally get to play against a long-awaited deck and the matchups can be frustrating on each side, but in the end, we enjoyed the two games.

I kept a heavy basic hand with 2 Plains, 1 Strand, Spell Snare, StP, Brainstorm, Standstill. I played a land and pass. He returns with a land and EOT I brainstormed. He paused, wanting to blast but decided not to, so now I know to hold onto the Standstill if I can. He plays a Painter which I snare and he didn't blast snare. We fought some war against Painter sticking in play and Drew stopped playing servants and lands Blood Moon to destroy my Factories. He drops Jaya after I EE@3 his Moon and Vindicates his 1 of 2 lands. I StPed Jaya at some point and Cunning Wish->Extirpate->Painter to deal with a board of 2/2 while Elspeth comes in. Elspeth fought against Jaya but lost as I tried digging for StP. Removed Jaya and beat in with Factories and EDragon.

Good game.

Game 2: -2 Vindicate, +2 Path
This game was close as well. I kept this Moon-hate hand since I'm guessing Droo will keep a Moon hand willingly against any Fetch/Dual 3 colored deck. He kept his hand willingly signalling that he has turn 1 3Sphere or Moon effects. I plays Traitor, Mox, Blood Moon, I Forced with my: 2 Snares, 1 FOW, 1 Underground Sea, 1 Top, 1 StP hand, 1 Elspeth. It was a risky hand, but since I'm on the draw, I'd rather keep a strong hand against Turn 1 Moon than mulling into a weak hand that gets raped by Moon.

I drop Top and he Imperial Recruits for Magus. Dang it. Topping the next 2 turns however revealed 2 basic plains, and I dropped Elspeth quickly on turn 4 against Magus. I let Elspeth eat 2 damage from Magus and chump/kill Recruiter. I put soldiers and let Elspeth eat damage so that I have 2 Soldiers to block his Magus. We exchange turns and he ends up getting Jaya online again and answers Elspeth while I drew no removal. The game drags a little as I cycled into 3 Soldiers. Drew took the liberty to bolt my face with Jaya, dropping me from 14 to 5. I finally see a Path with Top and decided to Path Jaya instead of troublesome Magus. Magus now stares into four 1/1 Soldiers. We stalled and I Cunning Wish into Pulse. There's a risk that he can kill me with Painterstone, but being at 5 life, it was really risky as well since he runs Jet maindeck and I didn't have counterspell so I decided to wish for Pulse instead of Extirpating Painter.

I gained back to 14 life and played EDragon and swung in for the win after dropping Standstill.

5-1

TOP 4
MATCH 4: Jeff with Elf Survival:
Game 1: I thank MTGod for not pairing me up with Brian who runs ANT. I'm fine with ANT but it's not a nice matchup without Meddling Mages. I don't feel secure on the back of Negates, since Duress/Chant effects can rip a hand with counter easily off. So I have a chance of beating Jeff again, hoefully.

He opens up with a the nuts into Perfect again. Gosh I hate that card. I answered his board with Wrath. He plays Teeg and I StP it. He's dry on cards by drawing more lands than landstill and I gained back advantage with Top/Standstill and Elspeth gets in there.


Game 2: +1 Path, +2 Plague, -1 Snare, -1 FOF, -1 Decree
I kept a REALLY IFFY hand of Scrubland, Plains, EPlague, Factory, Brainstorm, Top, FOW.
He opens with Turn 1 Survival, and I thought to myself that I can pitch Brainstorm to FOW since I have no blue anyways lol. He followed up with another Survival which I EE@2 killing a priest in the process. He plays a 3rd Survival which I snared. So I don't think he can draw a 4th Survival. He plays out Llanowar, Perfect, and Ranger and I hold onto a hand of StP/Plague. Since I'm afraid he'll grip the Plague, I wanted to StP the Lord and play the Plague the same turn to kill his board. If I played the Plague on turn 3. It would not kill the board and I open myself to Grips. I held back for next turn, but sadly he drops Thorn and I could not StP and EPlague the same turn since I was tapped out playing something else. Next turn, he went infinnite with Priest/Symbiote/Entity. I could StP and break the infinite loop, but the base first activation made his creatures 6/6, and his 7 creatures could beat through my Factories and 2 Soldiers even with 6/6s.

Game 3: +1 Path, +2 Plague, -1 Snare, -1 FOF, -1 Decree
So once again, Jeff steals game 2, and I'm sweating in Game 3, hoping the EPlagues and Landstill does what it does against Aggro.dec. I kept a SLOW hand of 2 Wraths, 2 Lands, 1 EDragon, stuff, but 2 Wraths signalled to me that God was angry with the elves so I kept it.

I hit my land drop consistently, and EEed Survival and a priest. He gets some damage through with Lord + 3 Elves before I wrath and reset. He played out more creatures and I decide to save my last wrath against Progenitus if it did came out. I EPlagued/StP his board out again, and he rebuilt slowly again. However, he was running dry on cards while I was drawing quite well with Top fixing my draws, and resolved Standstills, Disk, Humility, Elspeth, EE, taking turns carefully to blow his board up without risking myself to grips and possible Progenitus. It was a tight game but finally, I destroyed his new field after he built up on 7 cards before cracking Standstill. EDragon and Elspeth gets in there before he has chance to go again.

7-1

TOP 2:
Brian (BUG ANT) and I decided to draw. Sweet.



Comments:
My maindeck sucked with Fact. It was nice to draw it, but I realized I'm boarding it out ALL THE TIME because 4 drop sucks since you're already tight with 2 Elspeth, 1 Humility, 2 Wrath, 1 Disk. I don't want to draw too many 4drops in my opening hand since i may not play it as easily. I think I seriously want to test 3 Cunning Wishes now. With a more dedicated SB, Wish can grab Path/Negate/Forbid/Fact/ETutor/Pulse/Extirpate. And the more I play this deck, the more wishes I wished I had. Since Fact or Fiction is a draw/tutor in the 4cc slot, and I want to drop the cc requirement, the 3rd Wish might be a viable consideration since we're not too heavy on 3drops.

FOF in the SB was a little win-more to be honest. I seriously doubt plays that needed to Wish/FoF for a solution. It's probably not going to work unless you're lucky. I'm not sure. I love FoF, but if I were to include it, I have to drop a 4cc slot, which is tight and optimal at the moment (2 Wrath, 1 Humility, 1 Disk, 2 Elspeth). Such a pity because FoF is such a great card. Maybe I should play MUC again with 4 FoF :D:D:D

My sideboard needed another EPlague, after seeing how potent the card is against our weaker aggro matchup, namely fast tribal (Merfolks, Elves, Goblins to a lesser extent). I missed MTutor in the MD and would probably play it in place of FOF. I switched out MTutor for the 2nd Wrath after testing against Jeff and realizing that I NEED to draw Wrath. 2 is the maximum I would run. I think if you're not sure which cards to cut, mark an X on the card and everytime you draw it, ask yourself what card you wish that to be. After testing, you'll realize which is the optimal card slot in your meta. Currently, MTutor has been that good for me, and it's an X slot for me to tutor up my other answers (Vindicate/Wrath/Counterspell/Decree/Wish). I'm not sure if the 3rd Wish is better. I think it should be since the deck is getting more and more 1cc heavy, putting it more at risk to Countertop which we're not too afraid.

Vindicate was awesome all day except against Moon.dec, which is boarded out for 2 Path since it solves Magus in a 3basicplains manabase.

EDragon was simply the best feeling in the world. It smoothed out my draws and recurrs for more lands when I have board control, and beats in for the win for 4 games today. It's never a bad card since at worst, it's a land, and as the 24th land in 61 cards, it's optimal. I'm a little short of lands with 23 lands in 60 cards.

EDIT: Cycling Decree is the best feeling in the world. It's the best white control win-con besides Elspeth (which is boring IMO lol). Decree, like EDragon, is such an elegant slot in Landstill. They both fulfill purposes outside of winning games and fixing mana and drawing a card while sending soldiers out instantly to block a field of attackers and retaliating the next turn is a very nerdgasm-feeling that I'm experiencing :O

[dearleader]

@dearleader



Forbid is not bad
- It's a cost effective soft-lock, hard if you run any kind of loam synergy /w.

- get's around the second best single permission spell in legacy (Counterbalance)

-also get's around the third best permission spell in legacy (Spell snare).

It's weakness is speed. It's not fast, which is why it's should be run as a singleton answer like most other non-efficient answers that land-still uses like say- humilty, disk, jace ect. ect.


You just said forbid was pretty bad. So your saying it's better used as a 3 blue 3 colorless counter spell soft-lock, versus giving it the third counter spell slot/ Vendillion slot? This is theoreticly in my opinion absurd. Theres no room in the sideboard currently for this many tutorable answers.



Which is why you run negate over that specific choice. Negate is also superior to blue elemental blast in just about every scenario, but mostly for the universal answer approach.


Once again you started off saying it was pretty bad, but now it's good. I'm awefully confused at where your coming from. Either it's good or it's not, and in the sideboard it's obviously not. I'd rather pay for intuition which nets loam wasteland forbid, or something of that caliber



Three words: Loam is good.



FML what on earth does this mean?


You need to clarify this. You either love forbid or you don't. You either want a good utility lock or you don't.

I completely agree with your 3 points on the usefulness of Forbid. Like, I said, it's useful in a lot of matchups that we don't specifically prepare against. And in the mirror - or any tempo deck that packs SS - the 3cc is extremely valuable, perhaps reason enough to run it over counterspell.

I've detailed a few reasons for and against forbid in my first post. The reason I dislike forbid MD is that I feel it comes online much later than any of the other cards you mentioned, except for Jace in certain situations. Having wish allows me to grab a PTE or use my wishboard in the early game and still have access to Forbid late game. I'll admit that replacing Forbid with a wish was a poor choice, but there was rarely a situation where I saw a wish and would have rather had a Forbid. I'm using Clique in that slot instead, and it's working out much better.

[FoolofaTook]

@Foolofatook: My most wished for card, by far, is FoF. Followed by Pulse and P2E. I haven't even run trickbind or wished I had it, how's it been working for you?

I use it in several scenarios, the one most common lately is to say no to a Planeswalker's big event and buy some more time to remove them if I didn't manage to earlier. The others are to stop storm, which I get the opportunity to now and then, and to stop Qasali Pridemage from blowing up the disk. I'd say Trickbind is wished for and used in about every other round at least once. Making it a good part of the toolbox. It also gets used occasionally to protect Humility, although not as often as you'd think because not a lot of people are playing disks at this point and it's hard to get EE@4 against a deck with 3 wastelands once I've figured out what the small splash is.

The card I'm wishing for the most though is Pulse of the Fields. It is worth something in almost every matchup we play these days.

[Elf_Ascetic]

@ Tempothresh matchup:

Next to the advice from rsaunders, if you're running into TThresh a lot, try finding some room for maindeck Crucible and maindeck Moat. Moat is just GG, where Crucible helps against their Waste/Stifle base.


@ Forbid:

Question for those that are testing it: Do you ever wish that it costs just UU? I use counterspell so often in my second turn, or in my 6th/7th, next to an Elspeth/WoG/Moat/Whatever, that I'm not convinced the buyback softlock is good enough for the repacement of CS. I feel it's a win more, when I'm drawing two cards per turn, I am winning already...

@ Wish:
45% PtE
10% Return to Dust
15% Extirpate
15% Enlightened Tutor
10% Hydroblast

I run a board without Fact or Fiction. I tested it, but Enlightened Tutor forfills the same role as FoF: Winning, when you have some mana left. (I run Moat, Top, EE and Crucible as MD targets) Postboard it gets even better, with Plague or Relic.

I run no trickbind.

[DragoFireheart]

@ Forbid:

Question for those that are testing it: Do you ever wish that it costs just UU? I use counterspell so often in my second turn, or in my 6th/7th, next to an Elspeth/WoG/Moat/Whatever, that I'm not convinced the buyback softlock is good enough for the repacement of CS. I feel it's a win more, when I'm drawing two cards per turn, I am winning already...


I doubt anyone that is running Forbid wishes it was just UU. One of the reasons it's being tested is solely because it isn't CMC of 2. Having a hard counter that gets around Spell Snare is good stuff.

[FoolofaTook]

Pulse of the Fields is an amazing wish target now that the opponent can't mana burn themselves in response. It keeps me alive through so much random stuff it's amazing and it keeps things like Elspeth at bay until I can find mine to make her go away.

I guess I use the wishboard a bit differently than a lot of people here. I use it as an extension of the parry, parry, deflect strategy until I can find removal or get inevitability in play. Having Elspeth land on the other side of the board just means my chances of winning got less, they didn't evaporate the way they do for the opponent when I land it. Cunning Wish for Pulse of the Fields keeps the bleeding at a minimum and then if I'm lucky I get my hands on the other one and Trickbind when the opponent uses the -8 loyalty, which buys me a lot of more turns to find the solution.

I still lose more often than I win when she lands against me but it's not a killer the way it was before Pulse of the Fields and Trickbind became available without hurting the main deck.

I haven't seen Ajani Vengeant yet but I'm guessing the situation will be similar with him.

[Elf_Ascetic]

The reasoning to play 3CC cards that do almost exactly the same as 2CC cards just for CB and Spell Snare doesn't make sense. The CB builds of nowadays have no problem with revealing 3CC (Clique, Monk, Coatl, Vindicate, Shackles) so the advantage of costing 3 is marginal.

Where Forbid can't be Snared, Counterspell can't be dazed. Pretty relevant. Anserwing a turn 2 threat can be done by CS as well, where Forbid is really, really awfull. Protecting your turn 4 Standstill, or your Turn 6 Planewalker (or +1 turn when against Daze) is very good as well. I'm not even starting to talk about matches as Goblins, where early threats and manadenying form the two weapons of choice.

In my opinion, you're too lategamedependant with Forbid instead of CS.

[mossivo1986]

@Elf Ascetic. You posted percentages on what you grab with wish.

For me it's more like:

Path 35
E Tutor 25
Pulse 20
Return to Dust 10
Negate 5
Extirpate 5

Post board the board changes so it varies but generally the importance of wish targets for me is of the following.

1.Pulse
2.E tutor
3.Path (If not sideboarded)
4.Return to dust
5.Pate
6.Negate

[ultimoman]

I dont know if I'm just getting unlucky or what it is, but I don't seem to be getting land drops, and if I finally do, they just get destroyed. In 61, I use 23 lands including 7 basics and only 5 colorless lands, 1 E. Dragon, 3 Brainstorm, and 2 Top.
From my understanding that should be perfect, is it bad luck? I usually keep 2 land hands that produce U/W; I'm not sure what the problem is. I could possibly take out Jace and then maybe I could go up to 24 land. Jace is awesome, and a huge help when he lands but as a 1 of without seeing him much, he may be able to be cut. I hate to lower my blue count though.

Also, I use both Vindicate and Wish, which can be tricky but its great knowing I have a Swamp and a Vindicate in my hand to handle almost anything.

[Koby]

I too have been having trouble making all my land drops. I cut the 61st card and added the 24th land. It means that I may get mana flooded later in the game, but also means that I'll ensure I make the 4th land drop on turn 4.

In my testing, this deck needs the 3rd Wrath of God and a better card drawing engine than Standstill. There have been many times against random aggro decks that I'd be out of answers and in top deck mode. IE. against Eva Green. They rip your hand apart, destroy your mana base, and can actually deal with both 'Walkers and Humility. But they have trouble with multiple Swords and Wrath - if you can manage to keep them in your hand.

In that matchup Standstill is such a dead card. There is never a moment you can cast it aside from a lucky turn 2 but it's definitly not consistent enough against such decks. I am trying Ancestral Visions in place of Standstill for my current testing.

EDIT: My metagame is like 40% Eva Green and BG Pox decks, so YMMV.

[mossivo1986]

I too have been having trouble making all my land drops. I cut the 61st card and added the 24th land. It means that I may get mana flooded later in the game, but also means that I'll ensure I make the 4th land drop on turn 4.

In my testing, this deck needs the 3rd Wrath of God and a better card drawing engine than Standstill. There have been many times against random aggro decks that I'd be out of answers and in top deck mode. IE. against Eva Green. They rip your hand apart, destroy your mana base, and can actually deal with both 'Walkers and Humility. But they have trouble with multiple Swords and Wrath - if you can manage to keep them in your hand.

In that matchup Standstill is such a dead card. There is never a moment you can cast it aside from a lucky turn 2 but it's definitly not consistent enough against such decks. I am trying Ancestral Visions in place of Standstill for my current testing.


If your having trouble with land drops run 3 top. Top is also good in the matchups your specifically having trouble with IE pox and Eva green.

Eva green is actually a favorable matchup for most builds becuause of the ammount of removal landstill runs. Combined with top as long as you hit top jace standstill or brainstorm to help you (I think that names off the entire draw package) thats pretty much the game right there. Standstill isn't a dead card against eva green because your whole gameplan is to stop the tempo of discard and just remove threats as they come. Focus primarily on ee for shade and goyf stp for stalker /bob and snare for hymn and force for card advantage plays as well as a false counter.

A false counter is a force that's in your hand but used for bait for thoughtsieze and durress, or if they hymn you and you don't have snare then using force and removing your choice is better then loosing to a random luck discard (Sometimes)

Its not as bad a matchup as your making it. If your having trouble run path in the maindeck and as 40% of your meta is eva green/ pox then thats probobly the best outlook.

As for pox I would strongly recommend posting the build/s of pox your playing against. If its spell heavy then deffinately play the negates post board. Pox is one of those cards that depending upon said board position you want to just take the loss. Half the time its not going to kill you, the other half its backbreaking (Not half as bad as Cataclysm in my mind.)

[Koby]

The list looks something like this:

3 Tombstalkers
4 Goyfs
3 Nantuko Shades
4 Hyppies
5-6 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Crucible
4 Mishra's
etc

Crucible resolving is absolutely the back breaker, since he can then go to town on my mana base. By the time they cast it I'm usually without cards in hand which makes it extra brutal.

And there are lots of people who play this type of deck. Ancestral Visions would seem to help in this matchup much more than Standstill would, as I could just suspend it early (and with any land that I play which could be Wasteland'd right away). I play 5 basics (3 Plains 2 Island) and I'm seriously considering dropping 1 Underground Sea for the 3rd basic Island. I feel like it's an uphill battle against these decks with the current build.

[mossivo1986]

The list looks something like this:

3 Tombstalkers
4 Goyfs
3 Nantuko Shades
4 Hyppies
5-6 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Crucible
4 Mishra's
etc

Crucible resolving is absolutely the back breaker, since he can then go to town on my mana base. By the time they cast it I'm usually without cards in hand which makes it extra brutal.

And there are lots of people who play this type of deck. Ancestral Visions would seem to help in this matchup much more than Standstill would, as I could just suspend it early (and with any land that I play which could be Wasteland'd right away). I play 5 basics (3 Plains 2 Island) and I'm seriously considering dropping 1 Underground Sea for the 3rd basic Island. I feel like it's an uphill battle against these decks with the current build.

Ive been working with 23 for a while now:

4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 ruins

This seems to work well for me.

[Koby]

Why has Crucible of Worlds been cut from your list mossivo? I'm not sure which page (or how many pages back) it's been discussed, but having it as a singleton would help more than it hurts.

[jimirynk]

I run UWbr landstill and I found a really good wish target to be word of seizing.

Your opponent puts elspeth to 8 and swings pass eot wish for WoS, untap steal elspeth then ultimate.

It deals with planes-walkers and you get the benefit of its ultimate.

Plus WoS is uncounterable.

[rockout]

I run UWbr landstill and I found a really good wish target to be word of seizing.

Your opponent puts elspeth to 8 and swings pass eot wish for WoS, untap steal elspeth then ultimate.

It deals with planes-walkers and you get the benefit of its ultimate.

Plus WoS is uncounterable.

That does seem really savage. I'll have to try that and see the look on my opponents face.

[FoolofaTook]

That's a great idea. I think WoS is too narrow to be a great card in the wish board but that is a great idea nonetheless.

Kind of related story: I was running Twincast in the wishboard for a little while, testing it against the meta and it was a pretty good card. Then I realized that it was just too narrow to be worth the slot. I used it against Tendrils of Agony for the win, and that worked. I used it against Banefire, but unfortunately they were usually at high enough life totals compared to me that I died anyway. I used it as another counterspell, wishing for it when somebody threw a counter at me and cloning it to throw back at them. It was an extraordinarily cool idea with a few wins in it but it also sat in the sideboard a lot of the time because it just was not applicable.

The thing that was most fun to do was wish for it against Tendrils of Agony and watch the look on their face as they realized that you just killed them with their own ToA. The problem was once they knew you had it they never ever went off in the mid game or later again until they knew you had no counters and no wish.

I replaced Twincast with Trickbind because I really wanted the broadness of the card. It's not perfect but how often have you sat there and wished you had a stifle effect when somebody was doing something nasty? To me it feels heavily like a "lose-less" card and that's why I run it.

[GGoober]

Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

You didn't play the second tendrils you played twincast and copied the spell. Storm will not trigger. You played it wrong and your opponent should have the win unless gaining that 2 life mattered or he's at 2 ilfe and you Tendriled him for 2.

Trickbind >>> Twincast and even then it's not too good a slot.

[Koby]

Brainfreeze would almost certainly be better in that same slot against control.

Rein of Power is something that would just be hilarious against Goblins or Goyf-decks to return the alpha strike.

Hibernation against combo Elves is nice, but E-Plague is just better.

[FoolofaTook]

Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

You didn't play the second tendrils you played twincast and copied the spell. Storm will not trigger. You played it wrong and your opponent should have the win unless gaining that 2 life mattered or he's at 2 ilfe and you Tendriled him for 2.

Trickbind >>> Twincast and even then it's not too good a slot.

Wow, I thought it copied the spell exactly. Good thing it was just a testing deck and not played in tourneys. Then Twincast is definitely not worth a slot, the ToA trick was about the best thing it did.

[ultimoman]

Why is Vedalken Shackles mostly no longer used, at least in the sideboards anymore? Is it just too slow or is our need for plains the reason?
When it lands, it can be gg in plenty of matches.

I'm also using 2 Wastelands currently, but can't decide if I want to keep that or go to Dustbowl and either a basic land or maybe back to Tolaria West. I hear both being used often and neither seems to be winning the debate.

[Holo_rip]

Shackle isn't played because you can't support a U heavy manabase.
If you really want shackle, you have to stick to UW landstill and reword some others things.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I run Crucible, and it is great. Together with Moat these are the two Wish -> Tutor -> GG cards.

@ Moss manabase:
Looks fine, I run the same except for
-2 basics
-1 tundra
+4th Factory (the card is just great)
+1 Swamp (a black heavy sideboard) but this is the weakest slot...
+1 Tolaria West, because Ruins + EE is great.

@ The guy who can't hit his land: I would rather go for the 4th brainstorm then the 3th top, but that's just my taste.

[Citrus-God]

I dont think running Moat is the best idea anymore, with all the Zoo and CounterTop running Quasali Pridemages.

[Elf_Ascetic]

True, against Zoo it is no instantwin, but is is very far from completely useless. Countertop with Pridemages isn't played here very much, but the instantwins Moat grants against Merfolk, Dreadstill and Tempothreshold (almost all 50/50 matches) are too numerous to don't run it, even in your metagame. Just take a look at the latest T8's on deckcheck, and you'll see that >50% doesn't have a MD answer (and no, 2 Sower or 1 Kira don't) against Moat. It is true, there are some minor drawbacks about Moat, but even in the worst situations, it slows your opponent down for a few turns.

Ander thereby, you guys are running Disk in the same slot, where your exact same argument can be made against.

Last and least, i believe most of you are running Jace, who is very sexy behind a Moat.

[NQN]

Why not just cast Humility and win immediatly if they don´t have grip?

[ultimoman]

I run Crucible, and it is great. Together with Moat these are the two Wish -> Tutor -> GG cards.

@ Moss manabase:
Looks fine, I run the same except for
-2 basics
-1 tundra
+4th Factory (the card is just great)
+1 Swamp (a black heavy sideboard) but this is the weakest slot...
+1 Tolaria West, because Ruins + EE is great.

@ The guy who can't hit his land: I would rather go for the 4th brainstorm then the 3th top, but that's just my taste.

Crucible is an option that I've been considering again for the mainboard, it just makes things so much easier.
Your Swamp is something I've been seeing more and it seems to work well if its not in your opening hand, same for Tolaria West which I've also thought of using again.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Why not just cast Humility and win immediatly if they don´t have grip?

Because they can still attack. Yes, against Zoo it is pretty relevant that you're giving them a free lightning bolt..

[DragoFireheart]

After reading about a new deck called "Ultimate Walker), that decked looked a lot like Landstill, but with more planeswalkers.


Has anyone tried adding other planeswalkers to this deck? Jace seems like he would be a solid choice to give you card advantage.

[FoolofaTook]

Pridemage is gong to be everywhere by the fall. Any solution that doesn't fully take him into account is going to be half measures at best. I love Moat and have run it in various decks since Legends was printed. It's not good enough to be a stopper any more though with the emergence of pridemage. The blue aggro control decks are going to go back to heavily splashing white just to get him in and because they can then run 4 Swords and 2 EE alongside him and have a nearly fully featured removal suite without seriously impacting the cantrip based aggro mode.

[LostButSeeking]

After reading about a new deck called "Ultimate Walker), that decked looked a lot like Landstill, but with more planeswalkers.

Has anyone tried adding other planeswalkers to this deck? Jace seems like he would be a solid choice to give you card advantage.

For one thing, many people do run jace (usually in the place of a single brainstorm).

The other difference between Landstill and UW is that 'Walker has traded standstill (which, they argue, is a card that is bad against any other deck running aether vial or manlands and also sucks it to spell snare and countertop) for ancestral visions (which has only the last problem to worry about). However, because visions doesn't have the no-one-plays-any-spells-let's-all-draw-cards-for-a-while-and-be-friends component, walker draws fewer cards (even if AV and standstill draw the same number) and needs Jace more than we do.

I am really excited about zendikar coming out though, as it means (at least) three more planeswalkers. Nissa Rivane is almost certainly G/B (which might revitalize UGBx Landstill (which has really fallen behind as an option because of how awesome Elspeth, Knight of Carry-me-victory is) but won't help us. There's also another time-shifted original lorwyn planeswalker (like Ajani Vengeant) who will probably be either Chandra or Jace and another one, who looks like a vampire and is probably black.

[NQN]

Because they can still attack. Yes, against Zoo it is pretty relevant that you're giving them a free lightning bolt..

seriously, against zoo, both cards suck like hell. You just have to kill the zoo creatures right after they´ve landed ´cause otherwise you´ll just go down to several red spells. Against other decks, humility is always better. a l w a y s.


cheers,
nqn

[Elf_Ascetic]

seriously, against zoo, both cards suck like hell. You just have to kill the zoo creatures right after they´ve landed ´cause otherwise you´ll just go down to several red spells. Against other decks, humility is always better. a l w a y s.


cheers,
nqn

Can't wait to hear some arguments... Please explain how giving them a horde of 1/1's is better then an immidiate scoop?


Pridemage is gong to be everywhere by the fall. Any solution that doesn't fully take him into account is going to be half measures at best. I love Moat and have run it in various decks since Legends was printed. It's not good enough to be a stopper any more though with the emergence of pridemage. The blue aggro control decks are going to go back to heavily splashing white just to get him in and because they can then run 4 Swords and 2 EE alongside him and have a nearly fully featured removal suite without seriously impacting the cantrip based aggro mode.

Thanks for this futureprediction. I predict that merfolk will fall out of grace again in two years from now, but does that influence me on the deckbuilding decisions I take now? Hell no. Right NOW, Moat is GG against half the field. Good enough. Its drawbacks are so minor that it definitly justifies the one slot he takes. For me at least. Take a look at the DtB section. 3/8 decks have no MD answer. a landed Moat = gg.

[Koby]

NQN is right about Zoo: you want to remove their creatures ASAP no matter what. They tend to run out of steam pretty bad and usually sandbag 2-3 burn spells the whole time, waiting for your life to down down.

Removing their threats 1 for 1 is ok, but I save the Swords for Goyfs and the 3 drop. EE is nice to sweep early if you happen to draw it. I'll often times pre-empt the EE@1 on turn 1 as protection from Nacatl/Ape, and hopefully be able to lay down Standstill right afterwards.

Humility is still good against them, but generally later when you have Elspeth, or just about to cast Elspeth.

YMMV

[LostButSeeking]

Can't wait to hear some arguments... Please explain how giving them a horde of 1/1's is better then an immidiate scoop?

I think he was just referring to the fact that Moat dies to Zoo's maindeck Art/Ench removal (Pridemage) while Humility does not.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, completely irrelevant discussion. I wasn't saying Moat is good against Zoo, or that it should form our battleplan against the deck, but just that it isn't as useless as it seems. I think Humility is even worse against that deck, but anyway, completely irrelevant discussion.

Let's go back talking about Moat in general in this field, or what other options would be better.

[mossivo1986]

Moat is a solid card; however there is simply too much hate in the current metagame for moat to truly be succesfull. Virtually all thresh models play some kind of grip/ qasali count, and humility is simply put stronger in virtually every scenario.

To the people who gripe that they can still have lots of 1/1's, you could just as easily say the slot could easily be the third wrath (Not my favorite use of this slot.) You could also say that you have taken all their creatures out but 1-2, which is generally what happens. So you take 2 damage instead of 6 netting you 4 life of damage, and basicly stalling the game until you can recover. Yes you can still get burned out, yes it's not an easy matchup, but if you play it smart it's not as tough as people make it out to be. For zoo to be strong it means they need to stay on the offensive tempo, if they spend one turn in the early-midgame burning you that tends to be enough of a momentum to push landstill into getting wish/answering the board ect. It's all about the timing.

[LostButSeeking]

Not to mention how stupid pulse of the fields now is in the zoo matchup. Seriously. This weekend I played 3 games against a solid zoo list, and I stalled him out with my life total below 5 in two of those games and rode Pulse to victory.

[mossivo1986]

Someone asked why I didn't run crucible. This isn't true. I run it in the sb. It's at best in most matchups when it comes in from the side I've found over extensive testing. For referance of my current list:

4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundra
1 U sea
1 Scrub
3 plains
3 island
3 mishra's
1 ruins
1 dust bowl

3 BS
3 Still
3 Top
1 jace

4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility

4 fow
4 snare
2 CS

2 elspeth
2 decree

2 wish
1 nev disk
1 Vindicate

SB:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 E tutor
1 Cruc
2 Relic
3 EP
3 path
3 Negate

You'll notice from my last list:

-1 Relic
-1 Vendillion

+1 snare
+1 vindicate

I also cut r2d from the board and added the second relic. You have to have atleast 2 relic's between main and sideboard. Safe players play with 3 but I almost never play against ichorid so im ok with 2. I feel like the ichorid matchup is easily winnable as well with plague and path comming in from the side + relics.

Vindicate just seems like the current thing for me again. It's been usefull but it's at it's best for me when it's a random good draw, and while I can see it's usefullness against other decks as well as a removal spell I really consider it EE number 4 and counterspell number 3 in most matchups. This should make the difference in the counterbalance matchup to make it truly unbalanced preboard.

[NQN]

I meant that Moat sucks against all utility creatures while humility does not.
I take it out for g2 against all red aggro strategies except for goblins but moat isn´t great too. You can never cast it on turn 4 except you´ve killed mots of their creatures before, or maybe thats only my feeling?

[Waikiki]

Don't you worry about the low blue count or hasn't it been a problem for you?

[FoolofaTook]

Moat just doesn't provide the cover you need. A lot of the blue meta is beginning to swap over from running Counterbalance to running Pridemage. It's happening slowly, but it's going to happen in the end and you see it now when you go to tourneys. Counterbalance comes out for Pridemage, maybe to the sideboard initially but probably out of the deck completely before the transition is done. Then SDT becomes a meta slot where you can put in wishes and extra counters and even sweepers that most blue decks don't have in the main like a singleton disk as an option.

Everybody is trying to figure out how to make space for the 4th spell snare. A lot of people are trying to integrate a wishboard. Some would like to find room for at least a singleton disk alongside etutor in the wish board. Very few people want to give up Daze and go more midrange. The answer, which has become a bit more obvious since pridemage surfaced, is that CounterTop takes up a lot of slots in the average deck that uses it. When it was relatively invulnerable game one that was a very good trade-off of slots for game one wins. Now that there is a commonly played 2-drop that can pin it in your hand it becomes worth less than it was.

[GGoober]

I might play 3Tops in my upcoming weekend tourney but I think 2 Top is enough in an established meta. There were times where I wanted to see Top every game (every time I don't see top, I want to see top) but there were games where seeing the 2nd Top is annoying and disheartening.

I'm definitely bringing 2 Vindicate in the MD in an established meta. The fact that Vindicate allows you to unanswer certain permanents and saving your FOW against more critical targets while you let some spells slip past and deal with it later is crucial in Landstill's gameplan. Not to mention that Vindicate provides another form of removal if StP/Path gets Chaliced/pated or your EE gets needled so you cannot get out of Chalice, Vindicate would be a life saver.

I played with 6 StP lists and found that to be one of the strongest Landstill lists, since it resolves Standstill very fast and consistently in the early games by StPing turn 1 threats and dropping turn 2 Standstills. However, in a more developed meta, I'll drop to 3 Standstill just to avoid them being dead against Zoo/Vial decks or aggressive aggro that are becoming popular. As a result of not resolving Standstill as easily as before in 6 StP builds, you generally drop StP number 5-6 as well, knowing that StPs become dead if your opponent resolves Countertop or Chalice until you can find EE or an answer.

Vindicate does not let you resolve Standstill as fast, but it provides for another alternative free-hate way of dealing with hate on your precious removal suite. Vindicate lists are slightly slower than 6StP lists, but are much flexible and I prefer 2 Vindicates in a meta of counterbalance and various decks. 2-3 Paths in the SB can be boarded in easily against non-Countertop decks e.g. Zoo to easily win the aggro matchup.

I'm going to be testing 3 Wishes instead of 2. Cunning Wish has always shined in my matches, with 20% of them being win-more situations. I do think that MTutor as the 3rd Wish would be more ideal in Wish/Vindicate hybrid lists. I'll post my list up soon. Will be prepping this Thursday with friends for the upcoming Waco tournament. I have been doing pretty well with my Wish/Vindicate hybrid list and I've made Top2/4 in the last 3 tourneys (we have a small group though) but playing the deck makes me realize that Landstill is a deck of decisions and card quality. Quantity really doesn't matter, and it's all about a deck of resource management and utilizing the spells at the right time (quoting Moss: your timing needs to be right, this is very true how UWb Landstill plays out). The reason why I feel Wish/Vindicate hybrid builds are strong is the huge versatility. Vindicate is not dead against combo/non-aggro whereas Speedstill's Smothers/Edict/Paths are. Depending on the meta, 6StP builds are stronger and faster, but in an unknown field, I think that Hybrids will fare much better in game 1, and game 2/3s you can always bring in the extra Paths to punish aggro decks.

I don't understand why people are advocating Moat. Moat would be viable without Pridemage but decks now pack these tight in UGw builds (Thresh or Survival). Humility shuts all CiP down, and stops Trygon/Harmonic Sliver where Moat does not. Moat does not stop Tombstalkers from stealing games, a creature which Landstill is fearful of if you don't have StP or Wrath. Humility has much more synergy with Elspeth whereas Moat doesn't really and you can get 2 for 1ed if they bolt the pumped soldier you send in. It makes Elspeth more narrow. Moat makes Factories bad without elspeth, and really doesn't do as much as Humility does. Both get gripped hence causing potential game losses, but one dodges creature-based hate e.g. Pridemage and Trygon. I'll take Humility anyday.

[Romanus]

Someone asked why I didn't run crucible. This isn't true. I run it in the sb. It's at best in most matchups when it comes in from the side I've found over extensive testing. For referance of my current list:

4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundra
1 U sea
1 Scrub
3 plains
3 island
3 mishra's
1 ruins
1 dust bowl

3 BS
3 Still
3 Top
1 jace

4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility

4 fow
4 snare
2 CS

2 elspeth
2 decree

2 wish
1 nev disk
1 Vindicate

SB:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 E tutor
1 Cruc
2 Relic
3 EP
3 path
3 Negate

You'll notice from my last list:

-1 Relic
-1 Vendillion

+1 snare
+1 vindicate

I also cut r2d from the board and added the second relic. You have to have atleast 2 relic's between main and sideboard. Safe players play with 3 but I almost never play against ichorid so im ok with 2. I feel like the ichorid matchup is easily winnable as well with plague and path comming in from the side + relics.

Vindicate just seems like the current thing for me again. It's been usefull but it's at it's best for me when it's a random good draw, and while I can see it's usefullness against other decks as well as a removal spell I really consider it EE number 4 and counterspell number 3 in most matchups. This should make the difference in the counterbalance matchup to make it truly unbalanced preboard.


Moss, how is three tops working out? What do you do when you draw multiple? Try to Brainstorm it back into the library and fetch-shuffle it away? I love the idea, but drawing too many instead of board answers makes me nervous.

@ A few pages ago. I typed when I was exhausted, and did not explain each of my points fully. I think you took me too literal as being close minded to red. I like Burning Wish too, and combined with the power of REB out of the board you have a convincing argument for red splash. My argument against Firespout is I would rather have a 4CC kill all creatures (WoG) instead of a 3CC kill all creatures but that 3/4 Goyf. (Assuming it's midgame. A T2 Bwish into T3 Firespout is sexy vs most aggro decks.) Then again you could Bwish for a WoG, so they both fill a role.

Vindicate has saved my ass too much to turn my back on black. I hope one day we get a U/R or W/R vindicate type spell, but I highly doubt it. Vindicate is just that needed to get out of tight spots.

I'll refrain from painting with broad brushstrokes in the future, and discuss points only when I have time to explain things fully.

[mossivo1986]

Moss, how is three tops working out? What do you do when you draw multiple? Try to Brainstorm it back into the library and fetch-shuffle it away? I love the idea, but drawing too many instead of board answers makes me nervous.

I don't have to tell anyone here how powerful top is. I've tested all the combinations (1,2,3,4,) and 3 with the help of Gustha we found 3 to be the most successful.

Yes occasionally you do get stuck with multiple tops or dead top 3 cards, but you have to figure that you can't win every single scenario. You have 6 fetches, jace, and a number of ways to get around the inconveniance of playing additional tops. Besides that there are some matchups where playing additional permenants is not a bad thing like against smoke stax (bad example but its the best I could come up with on such short notice.)

anyways top x3 = good

[ultimoman]

I've been trying out E. Dragon and 2 Top but maybe its better off to just use 3. I've seen good arguments for both but E. Dragon just may not be needed after all. I like that the Dragon can be a late win condition if needed though.
Its a little surprising that the Top isn't used in many Landstill lists.

[GGoober]

Top is somewhat slow, but the reason why I felt it was slow is because I was playing with no Decrees. I haven't found Top to slow me down at all, and it is important to only top in response to a spell or at the end of their turn, to save your mana for possible counter/removal. There are specific cases but if you play in that kind of style, then Top isn't a slow tool, but rather a very powerful tool. Without Top, you are really limited to Brainstorm for card quality, but Top allows you to dig every turn, one card deeper or 3 cards if you can shuffle away your stuff. There are many games where I top after my draw phase searching for an answer and found one due to multiple activations every turn. I might test out 3 Tops as well. I have quite some fetch outlet, and EDragon is good regardless if you run top. I've been very pleased with him as the 24th "land" in 61 card lists.

[Citrus-God]

Having multiple Tops in play isn't that bad. Like, one can spin and the other one draws, so I don't ever see 3 Tops ever being a problem.

[mossivo1986]

Having multiple Tops in play isn't that bad. Like, one can spin and the other one draws, so I don't ever see 3 Tops ever being a problem.

I could agree with this.

[FoolofaTook]

Having multiple Tops in play isn't that bad. Like, one can spin and the other one draws, so I don't ever see 3 Tops ever being a problem.

It's hard to fit 3 tops into Landstill. The deck only has 35-37 slots to work with at the start and it runs on the order of 9-11 counters, 10-13 removal including the sweepers, 6-8 blue card manipulation/advantage - which really need to be blue given the overall blue in the deck, 6-8 control elements to support inevitability (DoJ, ED, CW, Humility), and then Standstill. You probably need to remove Standstill to fit the tops in and then your blue count will be low enough to be a real problem.

[mossivo1986]

It's hard to fit 3 tops into Landstill. The deck only has 35-37 slots to work with at the start and it runs on the order of 9-11 counters, 10-13 removal including the sweepers, 6-8 blue card manipulation/advantage - which really need to be blue given the overall blue in the deck, 6-8 control elements to support inevitability (DoJ, ED, CW, Humility), and then Standstill. You probably need to remove Standstill to fit the tops in and then your blue count will be low enough to be a real problem.

I just posted a list to show you how you can do it. The list I believe runs 18-21 blue sources which is just fine.

It's not difficult. Your making it more then it really is. Instead think with the logic like this:

Lands: 23-24
Permission: 9-10
Draw: 10
Removal: 10-12
Utility:4
Win: 4

[rockout]

I just posted a list to show you how you can do it. The list I believe runs 18-21 blue sources which is just fine.

Your list runs 17 blue cards. 1 above the bare minimum of 16.

[FoolofaTook]

I just posted a list to show you how you can do it. The list I believe runs 18-21 blue sources which is just fine.

It's not difficult. Your making it more then it really is. Instead think with the logic like this:

Lands: 23-24
Permission: 9-10
Draw: 10
Removal: 10-12
Utility:4
Win: 4

You ditched a brainstorm, a counterspell and a vindicate (basically) to add 3 tops. I'm not sure that's a positive change. You have a better chance to sort things out early, but with spell snare and stp you really don't want to tap out to drop SDT on turn 1, then on turn 2 you'd really like to keep two mana open to at least bluff a counterspell, even if your chances of having one are a third less than they'd otherwise be. You also don't have as much leverage to do the drop a fetch, drop a fetch thing that messes with a lot of aggro control attempts to dictate tempo early.

I guess I can see where top makes the deck a bit stronger in the mid game, but I think it weakens the position overall until you get there and I don't think Landstill wants to do that.

[LostButSeeking]

You also don't have as much leverage to do the drop a fetch, drop a fetch thing that messes with a lot of aggro control attempts to dictate tempo early.

Adding two tops (and I'm considering adding a 3rd) considerably helped my matchup against Merfolk and that tempo-thresh-like dreadstill list I constantly complain about. In your first 10 cards, you usually see 4 lands, and when they stifle/waste two of them (denying you dual lands and therefore both of your main colors) it's really, really ugly. Being able to look for lands anywhere in your top 3 cards rather than just your top card is really, really helpful.

[mossivo1986]

@Rockout

Your list runs 17 blue cards. 1 above the bare minimum of 16.

you missed wish which makes 19

3 bs
3 still
1 jace
4 force
4 snare
2 cs
2 wish


Adding two tops (and I'm considering adding a 3rd) considerably helped my matchup against Merfolk and that tempo-thresh-like dreadstill list I constantly complain about. In your first 10 cards, you usually see 4 lands, and when they stifle/waste two of them (denying you dual lands and therefore both of your main colors) it's really, really ugly. Being able to look for lands anywhere in your top 3 cards rather than just your top card is really, really helpful.

+1

@FoolofaTook

You ditched a brainstorm, a counter spell and a vindicate (basically) to add 3 tops.

I Ditched 4th brainstorm for the third top
I Ditched 3rd counter spell for fourth snare

And I Ditched 2nd vindicate for disk; which is much more important in many more matches. Realistically this was the second vindicate (4 utility slots, 2 of them are wish, 1 vindicate which used to be 2 relic, followed by 1, then switched to 1 of vindicate)



You have a better chance to sort things out early, but with spell snare and S.T.P you really don't want to tap out to drop S.D.T on turn 1



If your on the draw against most of the decks in this format you probably aren't playing top on your t1. You more then likely play it t2 where its a safe reliable play. Obviously it depends on the match ups etc.



then on turn 2 you'd really like to keep two mana open to at least bluff a counter spell

That's not as realistic with spell snare and daze in the meta any longer. On top of that your more then likely not getting double blue in the early game. If you are it's through a dual and that in itself isn't exactly optimal.


You also don't have as much leverage to do the drop a fetch, drop a fetch thing that messes with a lot of aggro control attempts to dictate tempo early.

Leverage meaning counter-magic? What aggro control are you talking about? Be a-bit more specific.


I guess I can see where top makes the deck a bit stronger in the mid game, but I think it weakens the position overall until you get there and I don't think Land-still wants to do that.

a.Top makes the overall game plan more redundant which in terms means YOU WIN MORE OFTEN.
b. There really isn't a (Getting there) position your referring to. Top on the play is so stupid strong that you dictate the game from t2 on. I hear library manipulation wins games. also to note that it enables stupid-ness from your other synergies ie decree off the top force off the top wish e.o.t earlier redundancy in your draws. Your also allowed to cut the crap from your models that makes land-still fundamentally weak because most of the older models play cards that are (Fair) top is (Unfair) which leads to scenarios where you win because of the (Unfair-ness)
c. I've been testing Top in land-still for 7 months personally and i'm telling you it's both incredibly solid and it deserves slots in the deck. Even the people who prefer F.O.F over top i.e. Konsultant (Geoff Smelski) and Rockout (Micheal mzzsszzeck.....<3) agree that top is good and the difference between F.O.F and Top is more play style preference then anything.


Adding two tops (and I'm considering adding a 3rd) considerably helped my matchup against Merfolk and that tempo-thresh-like dreadstill list I constantly complain about. In your first 10 cards, you usually see 4 lands, and when they stifle/waste two of them (denying you dual lands and therefore both of your main colors) it's really, really ugly. Being able to look for lands anywhere in your top 3 cards rather than just your top card is really, really helpful.

+1

[FoolofaTook]

Leverage meaning counter-magic? What aggro control are you talking about? Be a-bit more specific.

I meant the ability to just drop fetches until the opponent actually does something that requires responding to. Playing 3x Top means wanting to put it out there early to get maximum effect from it. That interferes with the ability to put land in play that is not touchable by wasteland.

I have games where I put out two flooded strand and a polluted delta before I actually crack anything. That's because the opponent is sitting there with a stifle in hand and a wasteland and he doesn't want to tap out to drop a threat because he loses the stifle opportunity. The first three turns of that game have gone at my pace, not his, despite him having the nuts in hand to make me miserable if I have to actually start breaking the fetches. Playing 3 top would make me have to play that differently enough of the time for the character of the matchup to change.

One of the beautiful things about Landstill is that it both has enough land not to have to worry about digging frantically for some at the start, and it really doesn't have to play anything at all early other than land. That's a big part of why the deck is good against a lot of the meta, it's the ultimate passive aggressive deck and that's because it can be just passive.

[mossivo1986]

I meant the ability to just drop fetches until the opponent actually does something that requires responding to. Playing 3x Top means wanting to put it out there early to get maximum effect from it. That interferes with the ability to put land in play that is not touchable by wasteland.


I think your logic is flawed on two parts.
1. Not being interactive. There are VERY few matchups where landstill should just not be interactive in the early game. And to this extent I mean land pass unless they do something. Yes Landstill does have the ability to just whipe matchups based on it's inevitable card quality, but the sheer ammount of matchups landstill operates on beating is massive. This is the first reason few players choose landstill as an archtype when it comes to legacy. With such a wide variety one must first understand the timing of every matchup in order to just play non-interactive draw go. While I do agree that in matchups like Ant you don't make a move until you see a reasonable win or stopper (Much like euchre) when it comes to trumping your opponent. Where-as against MUC you want to abuse the shit out of every resource you have because they generally have inevitability on landstill because of their massive ca (the ability to play rediculous draw like 3-4 FOF or 3 Stroke of genius, etc.) The bottom line is that against models like threshhold that pack stifle you don't have a prayer if your going to play for the late game say against w thresh. They can simply lock you in the long game with the counterbalance teeg hard lock. The only prayer you have in those matchups from what I understand (without top) is to play decree, which most people run 2, and if they run stifle thats basicly GG right there.
2. Land choices. I don't know about you but unless I absolutely fully understand the situation (and even when I do) I generally fetch and island or a plains. Now granted some of you play a swamp and I understand the logic behind it, but unless you have 4 basics out or you absolutely know your not playing against wasteland/stifle combintion then I would venture to say your ALWAYS grabbing T1. U T2. W T3. U T4. W. It is with this logic and your statement that I assume that you generally fetch for duals.

Remember this logic:

Legacy: Basics>Fetches>Duals



I have games where I put out two flooded strand and a polluted delta before I actually crack anything.

This is a flaw as your limiting your card quality unless you have reasonable belief that your opponent is in fact running stifle. If this is your logic and your drawing multiple fetches then yes I do understand your logic but I would think under these circumstances that you lead with a basic then top on t2 with fetch in play. If you see the daze and stifle thats ok because then your one basic against 2 duals and a basic comming into your t3 and while you've lost one land and a top to 2 spells you can just as easily recover if you have another land force standstill brainstorm stp ee you get the point. It's all about your timing and its something you can't teach, but you have to know based on your hand when its time to procede with the countermagic.


That's because the opponent is sitting there with a stifle in hand and a wasteland and he doesn't want to tap out to drop a threat because he loses the stifle opportunity. The first three turns of that game have gone at my pace, not his, despite him having the nuts in hand to make me miserable if I have to actually start breaking the fetches. Playing 3 top would make me have to play that differently enough of the time for the character of the matchup to change.

.
Overall the nuts should be talked about in regards to what your card quality. One mans x3 goyf hand is a landstill's dream. Bottom line landstill needs card quality over CA and your promoting CA, which I gaurentee you will change your mind with testing and lots of love <3!


One of the beautiful things about Landstill is that it both has enough land not to have to worry about digging frantically for some at the start, and it really doesn't have to play anything at all early other than land.

This is myth now. It's something that is the way landstill used to play. No longer; hoever, because experianced players will rip your ass if they see your going to play reactive still. Landstill CAN NOT be a reactive deck. You can't just not be aggresive. Even Konsultants list with all it's removal still proactively plays it ahead of time, (see 2x disk.) Landstill has to win a mid-game tempo war most games to come out on top. Most of the time this is rather easy because the rest of the format rides on this t2-t3-t4 crap that is always 50-50 depending on what you play. Not with landstill. Your mid-game should be filled with interactive cards that you not only set up in the early game with top brainstorm, sometimes standstill and once in a while jace, humility or elspeth, but you honeslty need to understand that not being interactive allows for your opponent to play shenanigans, and sometimes landstill can't answer those shenanigans when your playing draw go. This is the exact same reasoning for months that Dif and I both said that counterspell was not only factually not strong (snare, daze, counterbalance.) but also because it's theoreticly bad because it stop mid and late game tempo (bad) because we are already supposed to have won by that purposed late game. Now to note I have re-added counterspell back because the meta has slowed and one just cannot hope to beat ant without some combination of countermagic other then snare force in the main. The other half of it is that counterspell is good at stopping opposing plainswalkers (Something I had a problem with dealing with other then in combat with my old model) It is with this reasoning that counterspell actually became semi-viable.


That's a big part of why the deck is good against a lot of the meta, it's the ultimate passive aggressive deck and that's because it can be just passive.

Actually I would have to say 43land.dec is the ultimate passive aggresive monster. That or White thresh. That deck is just rediculous with card quality.

[FoolofaTook]

Counterspell has always been a staple in Landstill. It's the midgame do-all counter that stabilizes the card disadvantage that Force of Will loses in the early game.

Spell Snare is a relatively recent addition to the deck because more than a few bombs in the meta are at 2cc and they tend to happen early enough that it's hard to counter them satisfactorily with Counterspell.

Landstill doesn't work in the absence of Counterspell unless you have a way to really increase the tempo of the game in your favor. At that point you're really not playing Landstill any more you're playing something else that shares many of the characteristics of Landstill but not the deliberate play style, something like Ultimate Walker.

3x Sensei's Divining Top and 3x-4x Standstill is a lot of pressure to move faster than you'd normally like too. Those cards in the opening hand have to be used or you have virtual card disadvantage working against you. Standstill has always had the issue that it's a situational card that can sit in the hand unused due to circumstances. Having SDT also be a card that can get pinned in the hand, or open you up to a devastating opposing opening is a lot of weight for the deck to bear.

I just see a bunch of situations where I'm staring at an SDT in the hand, even on the play, and knowing that I'm opening myself up to opposing plays if I choose to play it.

It's just an opinion, but I'm very uncomfortable with playing a Landstill deck that has to play stuff early before the opponent has been parried. It just doesn't feel right.

[rsaunder]

I just see a bunch of situations where I'm staring at an SDT in the hand, even on the play, and knowing that I'm opening myself up to opposing plays if I choose to play it.

What turn 1 plays are you thinking of when one mana of any color would make a difference? Maybe for SS if you're on the draw, but honestly, most people especially game 1 tend not to throw 2cc cards into an open U

Also, Counterspell isn't card advantage. It's a 1-for-1 trade.

[FoolofaTook]

What turn 1 plays are you thinking of when one mana of any color would make a difference? Maybe for SS if you're on the draw, but honestly, most people especially game 1 tend not to throw 2cc cards into an open U

Also, Counterspell isn't card advantage. It's a 1-for-1 trade.

I said Counterspell began to stabilize the card disadvantage that Force of Will creates. A 1 for 1 looks very good if you've had to do a 2 for 1 early on to avoid a problem. It looks particularly good when you're using it to stop their pitch FoW, something Spell Snare cannot do. Being unable to answer an early midgame spell because you're holding Spell Snare instead of Counterspell can be a game breaker. Also 4 Spell Snare/2 Counterspell splits are probably unwieldy in a big meta, with 3/3 more rational against the potential threats.

The 1 mana spell you're most likely to play on turn 1 is Swords to Plowshares, which if you don't have access to it is rarely game-breaking, although not having access to Brainstorm can be . Spell Snare is iffy on the draw game 1, against aggro-control you'll walk into their Daze a lot, although again that's not always critical unless they just dropped Counterbalance on you. Storm decks have a real tendency to go off on turn 2 on the play though - especially if the other deck tapped out on turn 1. Having a tapped land and a Sensei's Divining Top on the board instead of a fetch you're going to break for blue and Spell Snare can be a big deal in that situation. That's a situation in which having SDT in your hand on turn 1 is a bad and potentially fatal thing to have in the build - it has no positive attributes for you.

[Elf_Ascetic]

@ Foolofatook:

You are now stating that Top is bad by quoting some bad plays with top. I could do the same for Elspeth: Elspeth is bad because he could have a Grim Lavamancer and a 5/6 Goyf, Elpeth doesn't fix that. You see? Total bullshit.

Top makes this deck more consistent. Running Top means you'll be able to flow land, removal, counter smoothly, and find a wincon when needed.

I still think that 3 is too much, but 2 is fine, IMO.

I wouldn't drop Top either when I have spell snare available and he is on the play, just wait a turn, that's fine.. Top is a lategame gamebreaker, and far from useless. He lets you find all the great stuff that landstill has to offer.You should test it. Btw, I like a hand with 3 fetches and a top more then 3 fetches without the ability to abuse them.

About Spell Snare: You're making too much a deal out of the fact that someone prefers 4 Snare / 2 Counterspell, where you (and myself) prefer 3/3. It's all dependant on the meta, and you don't know no shit about the decks Moss is seeing. Don't hammer so much on the choice of a single card.

Question for all: 60 cards, or 61 with one utility card more?

[NQN]

Currently I´m testing 61 cards with E.Dragon as the 1 utitily card and for now it works great.

[rsaunder]

Currently I´m testing 61 cards with E.Dragon as the 1 utitily card and for now it works great.I ran the 61 card list for a while, but now I wouldn't touch it. 60 cards has just seemed infinitely more consistent mana-wise for me.

[LostButSeeking]

I ran 61 cards (with Tolaria West as card 61) but was convinced to cut it for another island (making E. Dragon card 61). Now I don't get EE lock nearly as often, but am more resistant to land destruction. C'est la vie.

[ultimoman]

I'm using 24 lands with 61 cards but no E. Dragon. I'm not sure if I want to go back to 60 or not somehow.

[Rinello]

61 cards is good only if you play E.Dragon since he can just be a plain or a lategame threat.

I prefer to keep my colorless card count low, so I run 2 Mishra, 1 Mutavault, 1 Ruins, 1 Dust Bowl and 1 Tolaria West.

Maindeck I use 2 Vindicate and I am testing 1 Mystical Tutor, but I'm not sure if he belongs to this deck.. He could be Jace, but I feel the tutor ability neat in this deck.

[Citrus-God]

You get away with playing 61 cards because you're playing a control deck. That's really all there is to it. Compared to every other deck, the 61st card is less likely to fuck you over because your goal isnt to win, it's to control.

[FoolofaTook]

61 cards still makes the deck less predictable. Not hugely so, but in a competition where bad draws is one of the reasons you go out, and it is, running 61 cards is a competitive disadvantage even if a small one.

If you really feel you need to run 61 cards to get an option in the deck that would not be there otherwise then it's probably wiser to install some way to get the option via a wishboard or alternately just to put it in the sideboard and go without it in game one. There's no absolutely necessary option that's going to get left out of a 60 card base, because if it was absolutely necessary you'd find a way to squeeze it in given that there are situational cards in the deck already (Standstill being the primary one) that can always be reduced by one to fit in your necessary card.

[mossivo1986]

I've done pleanty of research with the 61st cards and 62nd cards in land still. 61 doesn't hurt. 62 was really just bad for consistency.

Also counter spell in landstill isn't exactly a staple. Yes it's good, but theres pleanty of ways to play around counterspell as I have succesfully shown for quite some time. I decided to re-ad it in because I needed it for utility mid-late game use against certain matchups. Not because I needed the 1-1. I needed ANT to be slightly better, and I also needed stax to be much more winnable then it was before. Without counterspell those matchups are INCREDIBLY hard. With them the matchups are still reasonably tough, but it's significantly easier then it was before.

[LostButSeeking]

61 cards still makes the deck less predictable. Not hugely so, but in a competition where bad draws is one of the reasons you go out, and it is, running 61 cards is a competitive disadvantage even if a small one.

I disagree with this. Mathmatically, this deck wants 23.5 lands. Obviously, I can’t run half a land. The best solution that I can come up with is to run a 61st card that sometimes is a land and sometimes isn’t. E. Dragon is both a land and a not-land. Tolaria west operates in much the same way.


If you really feel you need to run 61 cards to get an option in the deck that would not be there otherwise then it's probably wiser to install some way to get the option via a wishboard or alternately just to put it in the sideboard and go without it in game one. There's no absolutely necessary option that's going to get left out of a 60 card base, because if it was absolutely necessary you'd find a way to squeeze it in given that there are situational cards in the deck already (Standstill being the primary one) that can always be reduced by one to fit in your necessary card.

I also disagree with this.

Aggro, Aggro-Control and Combo all want to run exactly 60 cards because you want to see your most correct threat and your most correct protection as often as possible. Thus, your deck needs to contain as few cards as you are allowed to run (60). For Aggro and Aggro Control, the most important number in the game is the opponent's lifetotal, but for Standstill and its ilk, the most important number is yours. Standstill (and its family) does not deal in threats, it deals in answers

And running answers is dangerous. Can you name any card in our deck—any card at all!—that’s going to be useful against every matchup? Even the ever-versatile, swiss-army-knife-of-a-solution counterspell falls flat on its face against one land belcher or something like it. There isn’t a slot that says most correct answer the way tarmogoyf says most correct threat. Because of this, we have to squeeze our lists to accomplish answers for as many different situations as possible. We want both to run an extra card (the land/not-land) and have as many answers to as many solutions as possible. I (and NQN, and Ultimoman, and Mossivo) have all made peace with these two competing desires by going up to 61 cards.

I think that here, and with your comments on SDT, you are asking the wrong questions. You seem to me to be concerned with whether something is correct on basic principles. I think it is more important to ask whether or not something works. Mossivo (you don’t have to listen to me, I’m a scrub) is a great landstill player, and he says yes, top works. NQN and Ultimoman say yes, 61 cards works. “Yes, it works” is a lot more important that “no, that shouldn’t work.”

[mossivo1986]

@LostButSeeking
Mossivo (you don’t have to listen to me, I’m a scrub) is a great landstill player

Am I allowed to +1 my own ego?

[Ectoplasm]

Can you name any card in our deck—any card at all!—that’s going to be useful against every matchup?

Vindicate? :D

[klaus]

Vindicate? :D

+ FOW & CS, Top and Brainstorm

[rockout]

^^ Served?

[Elf_Ascetic]

Clearly, most of us agree that this deck needs 23+a-little land. I use 22 + Tolaria West as 23th, and dragon as the +23,5th land.

But if we are agreeing on the need of Dragon, what other card is your 61th card? Following this logic:
Lands: 23 + Dragon
Removal: 10
Permission: 10
Win: 4
Utility: 2 (3 would make 61)

What is the 3th Utility slot? Disk? Vindicate? Clique? Relic? And why is that card better then none? I understand the situation if it's a tutorable answer a la moat or crucible (note that I listed moat as removal, and crucible as win), but a Vindicate as 61th card isn't that great I think.

[frogboy]

Mathmatically, this deck wants 23.5 lands.

Elaborate. Specifically, how many consecutive land drops do you want to make?

re: drawing two Tops: How does that ever even happen aside from your opening hand? Further, with a fetchland, they have cycling 1.

re: Counterspell: I usually want to die when this is in my opening hand against Daze aggro on the draw. It's ludicrously slow until turn four or so. It is obviously sick in the mid and late game and absurd in the mirror etc.

[GGoober]

Here's my list for Waco, TX this Saturday (assuming it's a balanced meta with Loam/Goblins/Thresh/Landstill/combo/tribal etc).

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

1 Mystical Tutor
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

2 Elsepth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon


SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Return to Dust
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
3 Negate


Mana-cost for CB/Chalice issues:
0cc - 3
1cc - 13
2cc - 5
3cc - 4
4cc - 6
5cc - 4
others - 3

This list is therefore prone to Chalice/CB@1 but you have EE/Disk/Return to Dust/Vindicate which dodges Chalice/CB to set your cards free. In an unknown meta, 2 Vindicates seems ideal for me. I haven't played at Waco so it's relatively unknown, and I feel assured with a list that's more flexible yet without losing power. The list I'm playing has a little less draw power, but much more diverse answers in game 1. Post-board games should be in my favor. I'm still reluctant to cut Return to Dust since it's saved my ass a couple of games, although it's the rarest tutor since with Disk, you can Wish for ETutor and blow up the artifacts/enchantments anyway.

3 Negates is good. I've been testing 2 Negates, 1 Forbid and I never wished for Forbid. Discarding 2 cards isn't cool since this deck is about resources. And if you did discard 2 cards, it means you're winning more since if you're not winning more and you're discarding 2 cards, then you've just lost 2 cards to answer the next dangerous threat.

I'm only playing 2EPlague. My strategy against Ichorid/tribal is to pack 2 EPlague, 2 Wrath, 6 StP effects. StP effects alone should stay a game good enough (think of it as game 1 but better with more STP and answers). Against Elves or green tribal, I'm wary of Grips, but since I have 3EE, 1 Disk, 1 Humility, 2 Plague, they have 4 Grips, I should be fine anyway since them gripping = them losing possible MD space for more threats.

I'm a big fan of MTutor, and after debating the last slot with:
VClique, 4th Standstill, 3rd Vindicate, 3rd Wish, 4th Brainstorm, 4th snare, 3rd Top, I preferred MTutor as a silver bullet to grab anything that I need (wincon = Decree, sweeper = Wrath, CB/Chalice destroyer = Vindicate, other answers = Wish, Counterspells = FOW/Snare/CS). I most likely will replace it with the 4th Snare if testing isn't good tonight.

This last slot is still flexible and after testing tonight, I'll see if I hated MTutor at all. If I don't and it adds to consistency and tutoring for needed answer, I'll play with 2 Extirpates in the board and maybe even 2 pulses so I can board one in the MD and leave one in the SB so I can Wish or MTutor them, increasing the chances of seeing the needed spell in my bad matchups.

Testing results will come tonight. Wish me luck. (By the way, after this tourney, I'm back to working my old old old UWg Loamstill that I've been advocating I think 30 pages back lol).

[LostButSeeking]

+ FOW & CS, Top and Brainstorm

Vindicate? :D

My apologies if I'm a little bit less that perfectly precise here, I write at work and I'm a little distracted. I also had a much longer post written, but it was really windbagg-y, so I shortened it. Apparently some of the meaning of the post was lost. I'll try to explain again.

Tarmogoyf is "the most efficient threat". Every aggro deck, generally, wants to see him, and play him. (And Aggro-Control wants to protect him.) Because of this, aggro decks want to have as few cards as possible so they see TMET as often as possible. You see? Tarmogoyf is “the best” card in the deck.

Landstill doesn’t have a “best” card in the deck because it’s not a threat deck, it’s an answer deck. “The Most Efficient Answer” would be something like

Force of Elephant 4UU
Instant
You don’t have to play ~’s mana cost.
Choose one: Destroy any number of target permanents or counter target spell or counter target activated or triggered ability.
Split Second

That would be about perfect (it still doesn’t kill shroud creatures, but we’ll try to contain the pain). But we don’t have that and are forced to work with what we have. And while force of will is useful facing a lethal fireball, it’s not useful facing down lethal goyf damage. Similarly, while Vindicate is a great card, if you top-deck it facing down a nimble mongoose, it’s not going to save you. Brainstorm and Top aren’t answers, they help you hit the answers you need (force or swords or wrath of god or whatever). We are forced to live under a patchwork umbrella of answers which won’t completely keep out every threat. The additional protection you gain from running the single additional card is, I think, more useful than living with a 60 card restraint. Running 37 non-land cards allows you to have a better umbrella, even if it’s technically incorrect.


Elaborate. Specifically, how many consecutive land drops do you want to make?
Well that’s the rub, isn’t it? I want four in the first four turns, two of which tap for white, and hopefully one of which (at least) taps for blue. But if I’m facing merfolk or tempo thresh or eva green or team america, I’ll need more than that.



Wish me luck.

Good luck! Your list is interesting. It looks like you've cut some draw--a standstill, a brainstorm, fact or fiction--for space to run more answers. Let us know how it goes.

[Elf_Ascetic]

What a bullshit. Clearly, there are better answers then other. Should a deck run 1 Terror, 1 Diabolic Edict and 1 Disenchant, settle for 61 cards, or run Vindicate twice? The goal of the deck doens't state the number of cards that is optimal, it will always be 60. (Unless you're running Battle of Wits). IMO, Disk is definitly the weakest card in the deck. Or crucible, or whatever. The point is, there is a card weaker then the rest. The only reason I can understand for running 61 cards is to fix your ratio's between land:removal:permission:win. I don't think it's necessary, though. By just altering the cards (run a BS, top or dragon more) or altering your playstyle, you'll be able to run a deck with 60 cards consistently.

Moss, you said 61 is good, 62 is bad for consistenty. 61 is just as bad, but a little less obvious. Please explain why 61 is better then 60.

[GGoober]

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

2 Elsepth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon


SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
3 Path to Exile
3 Negate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague


Mana-cost for CB/Chalice issues:
0cc - 3
1cc - 12
2cc - 5
3cc - 5
4cc - 6
5cc - 4
others - 3


Testing yesterday:

Aggro Loam (pre-board) 1-2
Aggro Loam (post-board) 1-1
ANT (pre-board) 1-2
ANT (post-board) 2-1
Survival Elves (pre-board) 2-0
Pox (pre-board) 2-0
Burn (pre-board) 1-2

Trends that I noticed: The matchup pre-board v.s. aggroloam is tough. Their gameplan nullifies your attempt to 1for1 or xfor1 them. If they get loam going, you're in bad shape. Wishing for Extirpate on Loam slows them but they have 3 Burning Wish to fetch the other in the SB. Vore is the main threat, and Devastating Dreams is a huge one that is salvagable by Snares. Everything is a goddamn threat. Bobs/Goyfs/Vores/Seismic/Loam. You want to save StP on Vores and playing against this deck is tough because of the more limited choices you can play your deck. I.e. you can't just snare bob/goyfs when risking yourself to possible DD. Their recursion really nullifies your removal (non-StP removal).

Postboard Relics helped a lot. I want to play 4 Relic, which should help the Dredge matchup, but the deal with Aggro-Loam is that they tend to board out Vores, knowing the hate's in. Humility becomes less potent when they bring in grips. Overall, this isn't a good matchup even post board. It's in our favor, but it's a tough matchup to play, and very easy to make play mistakes. I've tweaked my list for 3 Paths in the SB due to this matchup, and the fact that Path should improve other aggro-matchups as well (I used to run 2 Paths postboard).

Vindicate was good all day, although 3cc sorcery is still a bugger lol. Vindicate would shine in the mirror against Planeswalkers. I think Vindicate is the right decision for an unknown meta. Return the Dust was very relevant for me in the SB and it gave me outs to Crucible/Wastelock and nuking Survival.

I don't feel secure against the combo matchup without hate-bears. But I thought about it more, they're going to hate on the hate-bears anyway, so just deal with it. I wished landstill has a better clock, which is why I liked the hate-bears for nullifying ANT. I might play 2-3 Canonist to house Enchantress as well. But right now, I'm not sure about the TX metagame. Should be more aggro-focused according to my friends, so EPlague stays in. I won against ANT because I drew way more countermagic. 7 Chant ANT is pretty scary for this deck though since we're not relying on CB to help out, so it's going to be 1fo1 or 2for1 in their favor as they bait out counters and FOWs.

I've decided on 3 Cunning Wishes after testing. I feel that most of the games, I've won or recovered from Cunning Wish. MTutor's only drawback was the card disadvantage. It's still HUGE in the deck due to its ability to fetch so much in the deck, but I realized that I wanted to escape another 1cc slot against Chalice/Countertop.

Cunning Wish seemed good since it could fetch me:

ETutor - If I'm in good board position, I'll grab Standstill
- If I'm not in good board position, it grabs Disk/Humility

Negate - Against FOW/combo etc

Pulse - Needless to say
Extirpate - Always good in the mid-game when cards are in the yard and you can get rid of what's potentially a threat in future turns e.g. Tombstalker or Wastelock.

Path - the crucial creature removal.

Return to Dust - There's always going to be a target. Just relying on EE and Disk doesn't do it for me. Now I have 3 EE, 3 Wish, 1 Disk as outs to arti/enchant hate.

Then again, I might swap the 3rd Wish for the 4th Standstill. As far as I know, I think it's wrong not to play 4 Standstill. I'm just worried about an unknown meta being vial/Dreadstill infested, which it probably will be.


I'm just wondering who has tested 3 Wish builds? The thing I note that if the 3rd Wish is winning more, that's not too bad since you can grab ETutor to secure a win to prevent them from recovering (Standstill/Disk/Humility). Most cases, Wish saves my ass out of tight corners (aggro/control alike). What W,B,U instant mass removal is available as a wish target? If there's one, I'd drop to 1 Wrath MD and a Wishable Wrath in the SB since I'm running Vindicate.

[Shawn]

IMO, Disk is definitly the weakest card in the deck. Or crucible, or whatever. The point is, there is a card weaker then the rest. The only reason I can understand for running 61 cards is to fix your ratio's between land:removal:permission:win. I don't think it's necessary, though.Moss, you said 61 is good, 62 is bad for consistenty. 61 is just as bad, but a little less obvious. Please explain why 61 is better then 60.

QFT. 61 decreases the consistency. Why should we handicap ourselves?




2) My mana ration requires 25.5 land if I were 60, so I'm playing 25 in a 61 (or 62).

You are rationalizing the terrible. (You want to draw those Natural Orders, right?) I'll admit I've been guilty of this before, but it is wrong. First, you have so many ways to add the equivalent of fractional amounts of mana to your deck. Ending up with a fractional amount (if it's even really what you need / want) should not be a problem.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/14933_Innovations_Michigan_States_Report_Yeah_66_Cards_What_of_it.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/12478_61_Cards_Magic_Russian_Roulette.html


What W,B,U instant mass removal is available as a wish target? If there's one, I'd drop to 1 Wrath MD and a Wishable Wrath in the SB since I'm running Vindicate.

Wing Shards? It's really slow, and if you are playing Path in the side as well, it's not worth running. It's nice against random, but Path is more effecient, and rarely will it storm for two or more. The other ones I can think of are narrow; Fracturing Gust and Tsabo's Decree. Enlightened Tutor out of the wish-board can fetch "mass removal", in the form of Explosives, Humility, or Disk. It's card-disadvantage, and super slow, however. (2U+W+a draw step+at least 2) The gatherer shows a card called Retaliate, but it's really bad. 2WW Instant destroy all creatures that dealt you damage this turn. Seize the Soul can act as a two-for one, but it's costs BB, and can't hit W or B creatures.

Seize the Soul 2BB
Instant
Destroy target nonwhite, nonblack creature. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
Haunt (When this spell card is put into a graveyard after resolving, exile it haunting target creature.)
When the creature Seize the Soul haunts is put into a graveyard, destroy target nonwhite, nonblack creature. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield. (kill a dude, haunt token, throw token in front of a guy to kill him.)


I'm just wondering who has tested 3 Wish builds?

I used to run 3 Wish, 0 Fact, and now I run a 2/2 split. I thought about running three to be able to see cards like Pulse faster against sligh, and maybe add more bombs in the side to Wish for, but for now I'm playing just two. With three they can clog your hand and in some matchups, but if you play multiple Path that shouldn't be a problem.

[GGoober]

I might do 2 Wish, 1 Fact. The problem now is my 4cc slot is tight:

2 Wrath
1 Humility
1 Disk
2 Elspeth

That's six 4cc slot. I can push it with a FoF but I don't feel comfortable playing eight 4cc slots and play against matchups where I cannot hit my 4th land as consistently as I want to, or matchups that end before 4cc. How did you find your 4cc slots? Perhaps you were playing speedstill with no wrath? I might drop down to 1 Wrath, but 2 Wrath has been good for me all the time, even in 1 for 1 Goyfwraths or Stalkerwraths.

[rockout]

I don't think you need to be too concerned with running more 4 drops. I remember a conversation I had with Moss awhile back that included the phase: "We run so many unfair cards." This got me thinking about Humility, Elspeth, FOF, and Disk. All cost 4, all are insanely good even on their own. How often do you lose when you have 4 or 5+ mana in play? I know that answer for me isn't very often. In closing, our 4 drops > format. No need to cut them.

BTW: I finally blocked progenitus with a factory at my last tournament. Hoorah!

[FoolofaTook]

The problem with having 8 4cc cards is that a significant part of the meta won't let you get to 4cc easily and some won't let you keep it (particularly on-color) when you do get there. I hate to go back to the Tao of Landstill, but a huge part of what we do well is not beat ourselves.

A 61 card deck with 7 or 8 4cc cards is just spitting in the wind. It'll look great when it clicks and it will fail to click more often than a 60 card deck with 6 4cc spells.

Consistency has to be the hallmark of an archetype like this.

[johanessen]

I used to run only 1 wrath of god in my landstill builds, having 4 swords, 3 ee and 2 wishes that can get 2 path or 1 slaughter pact have been ok for me to control creature decks.

my 4c spells consist in:

2 elspeth
1 wog
1 humility
1 moat
1 fof

having moat+humilty locks the game totally agaisnt most decks in the format, but i'm thinking on replacing the moat for another wog since pridemage came out. that cat sucks.

[Citrus-God]

I don't think you need to be too concerned with running more 4 drops. I remember a conversation I had with Moss awhile back that included the phase: "We run so many unfair cards." This got me thinking about Humility, Elspeth, FOF, and Disk. All cost 4, all are insanely good even on their own. How often do you lose when you have 4 or 5+ mana in play? I know that answer for me isn't very often. In closing, our 4 drops > format. No need to cut them.

BTW: I finally blocked progenitus with a factory at my last tournament. Hoorah!

I run 8 4c cards, and Konsultant runs 10.

I have 2 Elspeth, 3 DoJ and 3 WoG. Konsultant has that plus 2 Disks. Also, when we cast EE, we tend to invest an average of 4+ mana on it.

[mossivo1986]

61st card:
I believe in the current models that I play that there are 4 overall utility slots. If you look at the previous posts by me and look at any of my models you will see I label as so.

The problem is this: When you have 4 utility slots you also need to have even numbers across the board for your different suits I.E. removal, draw, permission, win. Now granted in a metagame like todays it's much easier to see that if your playing a heavier aggro/ aggro control lineup then perhaps the removal suit should be heavier then the permission etc. The Model's I present to everyone are specific models against a general consensus of the meta-game; so any specific meta-tuning is up to you all.

Back to the point: in order to satisfy my requirements and have 4 utility slots you are more then likely playing 61 cards based on a 23 land mana base. I feel like the 2% chance you take in drawing inefficiency more then makes up for it in overall card quality.


4cc cards:
I personally run one of the lowest curves in this thread. I have for a long time. that doesn't mean that I don't believe that other cards are bad, outdated, etc. I personally don't pay as much attention to the 4cc cards as I do the 2-3 drops this deck has to offer. To give you an idea the normal landstill list runs something like 2.6 ish for an average curve "maybe more."
At one point my curve was 2.18 which was a laugh riot to me because I was running 17 1cc cards. I still beat half the format, but the ends more then justified the means so I went back to running a much more top heavy version of the deck in order to beat normally winnable but happened to be problem matchups for me.

Consensus:

My model is the best, you all should run it and see how great I am. (extreme sarcasm)

[konsultant]

I run 8 4c cards, and Konsultant runs 10.

I have 2 Elspeth, 3 DoJ and 3 WoG. Konsultant has that plus 2 Disks. Also, when we cast EE, we tend to invest an average of 4+ mana on it.

The "extra" 4 drops do require you play a tighter game the first few turns of the game. Don't piss away your Force on something that isn't really that relevent. They are also considerably stronger cards than most decks play. My wins have been easier than ever with this build. Pretty much I hit my 4th land cast one spell and realistically my opponent's begin to lose. Mana denial decks are a factor but then again they do give us a side board.

[GGoober]

Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.

Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?

Konsultant
Moss
Citrus-God

I believe you guys were the top8s at Hadley?

[mossivo1986]

Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.

Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?

Konsultant
Moss
Citrus-God

I believe you guys were the top8s at Hadley?

Real names:
Since konsultant rarely posts on here and probobly wont see it. Konsultant's name is Geoff Smelski. My name is Joel Ferris. I don't know Citrus god, but I have his aim :).

Also Rockout, Konsultant, and another Team Left Fielder Top8'd Hadley, not me.

but I would like to mention that I haven't placed out of the top2 since Chicago in any tourney i've been in so far. I'm also in the source Legacy tourney if that means anything to you guys.

[Citrus-God]

Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.

If your meta is full of LD (meaning Aggro Loam, Sui and Stax. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh excluded), you should be running a better deck for that metagame instead of playing Landstill. Try something like Ichorid or Merfolk. But that's my opinion as a competitive magic player. If you want my advice on FoF and Landstill, it's good against LD. Sure you need to build up to 4 mana, but against LD, you will on average have 4 mana in play regardless due to you having such a high land density. So cast FoF, they'll separate those cards in one of those boring land vs. spells piles, and just proceed to stabilize. If you're playing against Merfolk or Tempo Thresh, just learn how to be patient and you'll win (I'm sorry that was brief, vague and lame, but that's always been how I approached those decks in testing).


Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?

Citrus-God

Oh man, the last time I even Top 8 was with UGW CounterTop Thresh. That was a long ass time ago. But even if I play, the tournaments I play at dont put their Top 4-8 decklists on deckcheck.net.

Also, I havent played in a tournament for 4 months. I do playtest with my team still, so I'm still sharp enough to play magic properly. I'm sure I could Top 8 a tournament easily with Landstill. Especially with the new addition of SDTs in the maindeck and Counterbalances in the board.

[Ectoplasm]

I've noticed our transvestite friend Meddling Mage falling out of grace lately, any specific reason to it? He/she seems like a real swiss army knife that can help in so many matchups, from siding him/her in against burn for dead cards like wog to shutting down aggroloam and annoying ichorid, posing a roadblock to TES/ANT, it just seems like a really solid sideboard slot to me.

[mossivo1986]

I've noticed our transvestite friend Meddling Mage falling out of grace lately, any specific reason to it? He/she seems like a real swiss army knife that can help in so many matchups, from siding him/her in against burn for dead cards like wog to shutting down aggroloam and annoying ichorid, posing a roadblock to TES/ANT, it just seems like a really solid sideboard slot to me.

theres more aggro in the format then combo or control (Bad) because of this control decks are packing more removal (bad) combo decks are faster (If they beat you it's going to be based on you not having an answer versus it being specificly MM.) This is also the reason why we play negate.

[mossivo1986]

So apparently I didn't top 8 the source tourney. Opponents not showing up is just a bitch. I would have finished 4-1-1 and instead finished 3-1-2

[konsultant]

I went undefeated in a 2x Beta Trop event yesterday. It was a small turnout, only 16 peaople showed but first was 2x Beta Trops and 2nd was 4x fbb Trops. It was only 4 rounds swiss with a cut to top 4 so it was pretty much 5 rounds of single elimination. I beat Eva Green, Merfolk and Zoo x3. I'm not gonna bother posting the list since The store should be putting up the top 4 lists at some point anyway. I will take a second to note that I ran 3x Preacher in my SB and while they require considerable more testing I was quite happy with them yesterday. Figured i'd take a second to say it is not a typo for when he gets the lists up.

[Ectoplasm]

Preacher :D
Congrats on the finish man, and you keep surprising with all these cool and techy sideboard choices! First it's Liliana Vess and now preacher :D

I haven't even thought of this card before, man what a cool idea.

[konsultant]

Team Left Field- winning tournaments with cards that should never see sanctioned play.

[Ectoplasm]

Stuck it in my MWS sideboard at least :) Let's see what happens

[electrolyze]

@Konsultant, congratz with your finish, but how the hell can they afford such insane expensive prizes with a small turnout like that?

[GGoober]

I did really bad for the Waco tourney, doing 0-3 (giving my Ichorid friend the win instead of playing out so he could go top 4).

I lost to Affinity and Imperial Painter. Imperial Painter games were very close, and he stole games via grinding despite having answers. Affinity was retarded as he drew the nuts in the 2 games he won while I drew little to no removal. Out of all the games, I saw StP 5 times and Wrath twice, EE once so I drew very little removal in those games. It was perhaps bad luck, but I did make some play mistakes but it wasn't those that costed the game.

Overall it was depressing but I still love the deck and how it played. I'm taking a break from UWb Landstill and will explore UWr for awhile now or just work on Legacy Welder.decs for fun :)

I was just angry I lost the affinity matchup when it is a matchup in our favor. It seems that I just didn't draw removals at all that tourney. It wasn't a good meta for Landstill anyway. Top 4 were: Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Stax, Dreadstill so I think Landstill wouldn't have fared in such a meta. There wasn't any aggro decks contrary to the belief that TX metagame is fairly aggro.

[mossivo1986]

Quick note:

1. Affinity is not a favorable matchup. It's on scale with ugw thresh. If your opponent knows what he/she's doing, which is 1/10 people then you better have a clear cutt game plan and not a (Well I have 3 lands and some cool interactions) kind of hand. That will get you beat very quickly. Affinity requires you to dodge 3 critical points in the game:

- The big early game swing
- The cranial plating second push
- Desciple Finish

If you can do this more then likely you can stabilize to make it go better for yourself in the long run.

2. Lack of removal. If you can't win matchups based on knowing how to open with hands (im not pointin a finger at you crz) then you need to reconsider your opening hands and what your role is in each matchup.

In landstill knowing ones role in each matchup is the absolute most important thing. Anyone can send a goyf farming, but it takes an elite to know when to just suck the damage and when to sit back.

[GGoober]

I would have said that much of the play mistake was greed to xfor1 Affinity. I never let Cranial Plating pass since I know that's the GG for the deck. I don't believe he got the Cranial plating except for one equipment on a 5/6 Ornithopter. One game he simply beat me with 2 Blinkmoth that had Ravager tokens. I already used an StP on his Master. Factories couldn't do much and EE does not kill manlands.

The 3rd game he won through chaining Thoughtcast, and that got him his double disciple. I usually think it's an easy matchup simply because Affinity runs dry fast, so a timed Wrath destroys the board. Obviously, you hold onto StP for Masters/post-ravager creature, and the great thing is that Path from the board become much better StPs. I never saw my Paths against Affinity. My opening hand was kept with Wrath and mass removal, and I justified it because I had disruption until turn 4, which we played out the games safely. It was usually post-wrath that he got insane thoughtcast draws or I was too greedy and wrathed too late (taking too much damage in one game, that was my mistake). Overally, I would say 30% was due to me being a bad player, 70% was just not drawing/digging the stuff I need. Basically, I just drew bunch of lands/Brainstorm/SDT and no business lol.

[NQN]

Actually, I´ve never lost to Affinity in a tournament. I´m like 10-0 against them but thats just because 99% of the people going to a tournament with the decks are people with few experience (don´t want to call them newbies :S).
But then again, I tested against a competitive list piloted by a friend of me with Winter Orbs Maindeck and he just crushed the shit out of me :S
But until I don´t stop winning the important games against them, it´s all right for me :laugh: .

[rsaunder]

So about Disk. I really haven't been liking it in testing. I love the 4cc and its interaction with elspeth (which I still kinda look at as a cute trick more than anything else, since by the time she hits 8 counters the game is mine 99 times out of 100 against everything), but it just seems like a slot which would be better served with something... else. Where have you guys found disk to shine? Maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way.

Sorry to post a fairly standard decklist, but I hate the (player X's list -x, +x, -x, +x thing) Credit goes to Mossivo for like 70/75 of the list, all of the slots eventually proved themselves, which is part of why I'm hesitant to stop testing disk.

4 STP
3 EE
2 Wog
1 Humility

4 FOW
3 SS
3 CS

2 DoJ
2 Els
2 C. Wish

2 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF (In place of SDT#3, I'm not sold on it yet)

3 Factory
2 wasteland
1 ruins
6 fetch
6 duals
3 plains
3 island

SB:
3 plague
2 P2E
3 Negate
2 Relic
1 Crucible
1 extirpate
1 pulse
1 FoF
1 E. Tutor

@Standstill: I rarely in testing wished I had a standstill in hand when I had a different draw piece (see: a couple pages back), but what I noticed was that in most situations that standstill was just more efficient. If I'm going to run them, I want the deck to back them up though, thus the wastelands. I know it should be 3/3 between factories and wastes probably with no ruins, but the 1-of has won me a retarded number of games. Long story short: I'd consider the standstill-less build in a meta teaming with merfolk, but then again, I'd probably just run goblins in that case and go X-0.

[ultimoman]

Disk is nice because it can be tutored for, recurred, and destroys man-lands and other annoying things. Coming into play tapped and an artifact makes it a horrible top deck in an emergency.
I'm not 100% sold on it since sometimes I'd rather have a Wrath but theres been other times where its saved me. As a one of, I guess its okay.

Standstill doesn't seem to be as powerful as it once was since more decks seem to be running man-lands these days, and it ends up backfiring. I thought of Ancestral Vision but in most cases I still don't think its as good as Standstill.

[FoolofaTook]

Standstill works with so many things in the typical Landstill build though. Manlands, Wasteland, Crucible, Elspeth, DoJ, the counters it draws to stop whatever broke it, etc. There are just so many cards that you can abuse with Standstill that it is probably the most asymmetrical card in your favor in the deck. That balances off very nicely against the situational inability to use it that you occasionally run up against in the control mirror and against high octane aggro.

[ebbitten]

Standstill doesn't seem to be as powerful as it once was since more decks seem to be running man-lands these days, and it ends up backfiring. I thought of Ancestral Vision but in most cases I still don't think its as good as Standstill.

So when was the peak time for standstill? I really don't think that it was all that much better when 60% of the meta was gobos. Sure it has its downsides and its never quite the ancestral recall for 1U but I don't consider the current meta to be "bad" for standstill. Disclaimer: There are very, very, few merfolk where I've been playing.

[Ectoplasm]

Disclaimer: if you are having trouble running standstill against merfolk (I play 3 myself), run more wasteland. Your manlands fuck up their pussy mutavaults and you can use wastelands to just take them out, compared to a stupid dust bowl which dies to a single wasteland form the other side of the table.

[NQN]

How often do you feel comfortable when drawing Jace? I´ve cutted him because he was NEVER as good as Fact :( This actually makes me a little sad because I´d really love to play at least one Jace in the main...Sidenote:
I rarely face control!

[klaus]

Disclaimer: if you are having trouble running standstill against merfolk (I play 3 myself), run more wasteland. Your manlands fuck up their pussy mutavaults and you can use wastelands to just take them out, compared to a stupid dust bowl which dies to a single wasteland form the other side of the table.

You confuse me.
How does your Wasteland not die to opposing Wastelands?
Also, Dustbowl has been quite good to me when facing opposing Standstills.dec,
Merfolk included.

[LostButSeeking]

How does your Wasteland not die to opposing Wastelands?


If they do, that's okay, because Your manlands > their manlands in a vacuum. However, I've played against merfolk a bunch, and this is (I think) really only relevant if you're running maindeck vindicate or other Aether Vial destruction.

[Ectoplasm]

You confuse me.
How does your Wasteland not die to opposing Wastelands?
Also, Dustbowl has been quite good to me when facing opposing Standstills.dec,
Merfolk included.

What I meant is that a singleton wasteland finishes your dustbowl and after that you're stuck with your manlands, against their weaker manlands + more wastelands which is a great way to lose standstill wars :)

[Muradin]

When I look at Geogg Smelski's Landstill lists they seem to be the most lategame oriented ones. Many cards that are considered to be very good in the current metagame and played 3 - 4 times, such as Spell Snare don't even find a place in his maindeck at all. He runs no Sensei's Divining Top and therefore most of his lists feature 3 of each, Wrath of God, Vindicate and Fact of Fiction.

Is this just another take on the deck or is the metagame in the USA really that much different to the European one? I tested those lists and despite their awesome success in America they actually failed hard against half of my testing gauntlet.

Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh, and to some degree Merfolk and Nassif.dec (rather Dark Confidant with backup) proved to be quite difficult matchups for me.

[mossivo1986]

The american meta is significantly differant then the european circuit do to card avalibility and lack of consistently good prize pay outs across the board. Geoff is also a different style of player then most here. Geoff likes to run natural redundancy, while I preferibrary manipulation. Its really all quite elementary my dear european.

[rockout]

To be quite honest, Geoff is a player that will very rarely make a play error and always seems to make the correct decision on the state of the game. His build, since it is so late game, requires the early game to be almost perfect but once he gets to turn 4 or 5 mana his deck can easily overpower any other deck on shear power more so than a more standard landstill build that most of us play.

[Ectoplasm]

Isn't that what landstill is about though? Playing better cards than your opponent but sacrificing (a bit of) the earlygame for it?

[rockout]

Isn't that what landstill is about though? Playing better cards than your opponent but sacrificing (a bit of) the earlygame for it?

More so in Geoff's build since he runs more 4 drops.

[konsultant]

Isn't that what landstill is about though? Playing better cards than your opponent but sacrificing (a bit of) the earlygame for it?

Yes and no, mostly yes. Landstill still wins with creatures and as such at some point in the match needs to become the aggresive deck. Back in 2005 there was no deck with a better late game, except maybe Survival, and so the deck was highly focused on control because inevitability was on our side. This is no longer the case, in keeping pace with the quickening meta we have sacrificed part of our late game, primarily Akroma's Vengeance, in favor of running quicker more attrition based cards and try to then pair them with our overpowering card advantage engine. We still run Decree whitch gives us a late game bomb that typically is enough to overpower any deck in legacy paired with our control package but the creation of Plainswalkers is an earmark for Landstill. They allow us to spend a mere 4 mana, either Ajani or Elspeth, and with no further mana investment win the game. Just the other day I beat aggro loam with nothing but an island and an Elspeth in play. The key to winning with this deck is to contemplate all of your possible choices and make the appropriate descisions. For instance I had double Force of Will and was able to power out a turn 4 Elspeth against aggro loam having denied him every creature he tried to play and still leaving double FOW in hand. I then allowed Devestating Dreams to resolve because with the Force disruption I was able to out race him with Elspeth. Don't discredit the aggresive factor of this deck, you don't have to win on turn 25 every game with 7 cards in hand and your opponent with 0. Anybody that has watched me play I typically end my rounds in 20-30 minutes regardless of what i'm playing against, well except for the mirror in an untimed top 8 then I have been known to take my time.

I understand why alot of people consider my build to be slow but I went 5-0 at my last event against Zoo x3, Merfolk and Eva Green, whitch are pretty much the fastest decks in Legacy except Affinity and was able to go undefeated against them. Landstill favors experience and punish's play errors, my build is probably one of the most unforgiving builds out there but played correctly, and with correct sideboarding, the deck is very capable of beating anything. Merfolk requires flawless play to beat but after I played against the Merfolk guy in the top 4 he even looked at me and said there was absolutly no way he could have played differently and won.

[whiteshepherdman]

What other planeswalkers besides elspeth and jace are good for running in landstill? Your thoughts on garruk, liliana, goldmane, and ajana vengeant

[mossivo1986]

Read the thread. Youll find interesting lists with all different kinds of plainswalkers

[Reagens]

and with correct sideboarding

I'll take the bait.

What are the correct cards to board out against Merfolk and perhaps more importantly why?

[mossivo1986]

It depends on what they are playing. - would normally drop standstill jace and counterspell

[Muradin]

I'll take the bait.

What are the correct cards to board out against Merfolk and perhaps more importantly why?


In my experience:

Force of Will and Standstill.
They don't have bombs, just threads you need to answer. Force is a bad answer because it generates card disadvantage.

[Elf_Ascetic]

In my experience:

Force of Will and Standstill.
They don't have bombs, just threads you need to answer. Force is a bad answer because it generates card disadvantage.

Do you ever win against Merfolk with that SB strategy?

You really, really, really need to counter their Vial.

I board Standstill, Counterspell and Jace out.

[Ectoplasm]

Do you ever win against Merfolk with that SB strategy?

You really, really, really need to counter their Vial.

I board Standstill, Counterspell and Jace out.

He might be running vindicate and/or 3 EE's though :)
But I agree that boarding out FoW seems like a bad move, since winning a counterwar over say, elspeth or a wog, will become pretty hard.

[rockout]

I played at Die Hard Games yesterday in a 30 man Mox Tournament. I knew there was going to be atleast 6-7 people playing zoo before the tournament. I didn't realize that in addition to a lot of zoo their was going to be roughly 6 straight out burn decks at the same tournament. Fun times.

I finished 2-2-1. Nothing special.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare - Solid
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish - MVP
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk (should have dropped this another snare/wish)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate - Proved its worth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Shining Shoal (not a typo)
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

Round 1: Zoo 1-2
Game 1: He gets out quick with t1 nactyl which I answer with t1 ee @ 1 go and he turn 2s a hellspark which I stabilize with stp and snare on goyf. I get wish for pulse and fetch myself into all my basics fearing POP with no counters in hand and realize half way through game 1 that he isn't running POP and I color screwed myself not being able to cast pulse twice a turn. He basically casts 2x chain, 2x bolt, fireblast all in the same turn to kill me. Must be nice I guess.
Game 2: He doesn't board in grip so I ride humility to the win while grip multiple negates and shining shoal'ing a nacatyl's damage back at itself. LOL
Game 3: I keep a island, wasteland x2, path, stp, cunning wish, standstill hand while he mulls to 5. I think to myself, can I lose? O yes I can. He plays t1 kird ape and I waste his taiga. I go island go. He draws his 2nd land and casts nacatyl and passes I waste his land instead of playing standstill because I draw eternal dragon with an island in play. When it finally got to mattering I had island, tundra in hand at 3 life with him having only mountain in play. Fail!

Round 2: Burn 2-0
Game 1: I get pulse turn 3 and he can't do much but suspend rift bolts into my standstills. He tries to banefire me out at 8 life to which I pulse and swords a mishra's to gain some needed life. I win the next turn ripping vindicate/vindicate off a bs to kill his double ensnaring bridge.
Game 2: He draws almost no land but rebs my wish to which I say to myself, I knew that was going to happen. Next card is force, I chuckle to myself and start the beats with decree tokens at one point shining shoaling a fireblast back at him pitching decree. Fun times.

Round 3: Ichorid 2-0
Game 1: I cast a turn 4 bs protected humillity and keep him at bay with a mishra's for many many turns. I finally rip decree and wrath to which he has no answer.
Game 2: I see 5 of the 10 pieces of hate I boarded in. Double relic, plague, shackles, double stp and he kept a really slow hand.

Round 4: Janky Burn 0-2
Game 1: He plays main deck pyrostatic pillar... :eyebrow: ...and some other interesting cards. I get pulse and am at 14 life with brainstorm, wish, wrath, stp, snare, other. He has lavamancer + mauruader. I cast wrath with all my white mana feeling safe at 14 life. He shoots me with mauruaders and lavamancer and bolts me, fireblast me twice. 1 mana short of wishing for shoal and winning the game. Sad times being at 14 life and losing in a single turn because I cast wrath. Huge fail on my part.
Game 2: His look/playstyle just got to me game 1 and I couldn't keep it together g2. I mulled to 5 keeping a tundra, force, standstill, e dragon, island hand. He draws nothing but gas.
I had no chance in that game and kind of wanted to hit something at the end of that round because I knew before hand how many people would be playing some variant of red and didn't make the necessary changes. I deserved to not top 8 this tournament even though I fought through the hate extremely well on the day.

Shining Shoal was surprisingly fun to play. I miss it from ravnica/kamaigawa days std. Pulse did what it was supposed to do. I saw disk once. I cast elspeth once. I decreed like it was my job in many games. My round 5 opponent was my teammate so we decided to draw and go home. He was playing ichorid. I probably could have gotten their but o well. I had white thresh built before the tournament I could have fairly easily played that. I learned that you can basically play landstill in the most ichorid/burn/zoo infested meta and still get there.

[Mark Sun]

Wow rockout. I just woke up after going to the Mox Tournament in Ann Arbor yesterday, also a really small report. Wore an Ohio State polo up there, got some awkward looks, which was the point. Surprised no one shot me.

I've never done the reports before, and with the pace of the games, it was hard to take notes as I went along. I went 2-3 overall, losing twice to Zoo and once to Loam, and beating Merfolk and CounterTop.

From watching matches, I counted as the meta:
~4 Landstills (including myself)
~3 CounterTop
~3 Aggro Loam
~3 Merfolk
2 Burn
2 Goblins
1 Affinity

I knew the Zoo matchup wasn't great, but I lost to Price of Progress (sometimes multiple) / Fireblast all day long. Changes I want to make are included at the end. I still don't have the funds to change of the mana base, and I ran one of mossivo's older lists. For reference:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [GUR] Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [R] Wrath of God
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ST] Counterspell
1 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds


With the one exception that before the tournament I took out a Tundra and added in an Island hoping to be less susceptible to nonbasic hate. Yeah :rolleyes:

Anyhow, just a few notes, nothing detailed. I need to at the very least start writing down hands. Again, my apologies for lack of experience.

Round 1) Zoo

g1) I win the roll (about the only thing I won this game) and I choose to play. I played a turn one Top and passed the turn. His turn one play was a single Forest, followed by a Nacatl. I dropped EE @1 the next turn. His next turn play was a Plateau, swing for 3. I StP the sucker, and we keep going on like this for a while, trading StP/EE/Spell Snares for Kird Apes, Nacatls, and Goyfs. I tapped out to play something on one of my turns, and he Lightning Bolts + Lightning Helixes me. At this point I haven't done anything to him, and the next turn he plays a Sylvan Library. I didn't draw an EE to deal with it, and he eventually starts paying life to dig with the life generated by Helix + multiple StP. When it was him 12, me 2, I'm struggling to dig for a Cunning Wish for Pulse to stabilize but it's a little too late. He goes Price of Progress (Force of Will) / Fireblast for the win.

SB: +3 PtE, +1 Relic, -1 Jace, -1 SDT, -2 Counterspell

g2) PtE's go in for the dudes, Relic comes in for Goyf. I choose to play after the loss, and he mulls to 5. I draw a hand full of removal, not noticing that instead of the an StP I have a Path to Exile in hand. We trade creatures/removal like last time, but I give him another basic, and he's matched me with land drops. His turn 4 he drops a Sulfuric Vortex, and me without a Force in my hand. I tried to dig for EE without luck, but I did get a Cunning Wish in my hand. He played another Vortex the next turn, but I EoT Wish --> R2D. I draw another Wish the subsequent turn, but by the time I play R2D in the main phase, I'm sitting at 6 (scribble?) life. The turn after, I wish for a Pulse, and with Pulse on the stack, he plays Price of Progress.

0-1


Round 2) Aggro Loam

g1) This game was horrid. I win the roll and keep a hand with 2 nonbasics. My first play is Tundra, SDT, go. His first turn was Mox, Wasteland for Tundra. I didn't draw a land the next turn, but I played a land, SDT'd and ended my turn. He wishes for Loam the very next turn. I spent the next few turns trying to dig for basics to stay alive, StP'ing a Bob in the process. He starts recurring Loam to Wasteland everything I play. My only answer was to either Spell Snare his Goyfs or StP his creatures. He swings with a Bob a few times before playing Worm Harvest (ugh). I couldn't find an EE.

SB: -2 Counterspell, +1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Relic of Progenitus.

g2) I mull to 6 to find more basics, and I play with a Plains + Island in hand. My first turn play was Island, Relic, go. I steadily build up a mana base, fetching for Islands/Plains while being careful and holding back duals. I am able to StP his Bobs / Snare his Goyfs, which tapping Relic every turn to remove something from the graveyard. He also builds up his mana, and Grips a Relic at the end of my turn. I have here in my notes that I Forced "something" the next turn and he followed it up with a Chalice at 1, which I had no answer for. I have 2 WoG in hand, no Disk in sight. He goes Bob, Crusher, I go WoG. He goes Bob, Crusher, I WoG again. He draws another Crusher and I struggle a little, but the game is done.

0-2


Round 3) Merfolk (homebrew)

g1) I have no notes for this game, as funny as it is, because I actually lost my dice for the match and just kept life totals. All I know is, this guy didn't run Vials or Cursecatchers, making it an easy game. I deal with the big dudes, WoG with Force backup, and resolve Elspeth, token it up, and roll for the win.

SB: -1 Clique, -3 Standstill, -1 Relic, -1 EE (no Vials to worry about), +3 PtE, +3 EP

g2) I actually draw only 1 :w: source and 1 :u: source the whole game, while drawing Academy Ruins, Dust Bowl, and factories. Couldn't find a fetch to get a :b: source for EP, and didn't draw enough spot removal. Since I left the damn blue source out there, he was able to overrun me with a few Merfolk after I sent some farming/exiling. Ugh.

g3) Things go right. EP hits the table before he knows it, and another follows. His only play of this game was Echoing Truth the EP, but I just recast it the next turn with plenty of backup. Elspeth comes in the game to finish things, with me using a single flying 4/4 Soldier token.

1-2


Round 4) Zoo

g1) I choose to play, and my first turn is just a land drop. He fetches for a Forest, and I immediately think it's Zoo. Nacatl comes out to play. Yeah. I actually don't draw another :w: source for the rest of the game, and with a WoG and Humility in hand, I didn't fare well in this game before just being overrun and hit with a Fireblast.

SB: -1 Jace, -1 SDT, -2 Counterspell, +3 PtE, +1 Relic

g2) He mulls down to 5, and I'm on the play. I have PtE's in hand, but go with it anyways. The big difference from last game is that I actually get the second :w: source, and I resolve Elspeth and start spewing out tokens. I stabilize, trade StP/PtE/counters with his creatures, and am able to win with tokens, Factory and company.

g3) Same SB, he sides in :really:. I start the game with Tolaria West and a Tundra in hand, and I play the Tolaria West as my first land drop. I am able to trade removal with creatures, but some do slip through the cracks. I'm sitting at 10 when I get a Cunning Wish. While it's on the stack, with no other counters in hand but FoW, he plays double Price of Progress (countered one), and then Fireblasts for the win.

1-3


Round 5) CounterTop

g1) I lose the roll and he mulls to 6. His first turn play is fetch, Trop, SDT, go. I'm predicting Counterbalance coming the next turn, but do have a Spell Snare in hand. I draw, land, go. He does play the CB the next turn, and I Snare it, meet his FoW, which meets mine. I play SDT the next turn, he draws and passes the turn. At his EoT I see a Humility, land, Elspeth. I move the land up, then Elspeth, Humility, draw + play, pass. He plays Bob the next turn, which I StP at his EoT without reponse. In the next 3 turns, I drop Elspeth, Disk, Humility (shutting down a Trygon), all which go through with him digging with top to find an answer. There was a mini-Elspeth token battle, but the moral of the story is, I resolved her ability with Disk in play.

SB: None.

g2) No notes for this one, but he resolves Top/CB. However, all my shit costs :4: and higher, and I am able to get a Humility and Disk out on the board. After several turns of drawing, Topping, watching one of his Goyfs die to my 2/2 Factory, he scoops and pulls 3 Krosan Grips out of his library.

2-3



So yeah. That sums up the day. Obviously, I had a subpar performance, but that's why we play the game, to get better. I am cutting the singleton Vendilion Clique for a 4th Spell Snare MD, especially when I didn't get to use it for pretty much the entire tourney. I do have a Vindicate on the way and it may replace something MD. I need an all purpose slot if I can get it. In terms of being the 61st card, whatever it is, I'm thinking about cutting it to bring my buddy Eternal Dragon back.

The card that I missed the most yesterday was Humility, which I didn't get in any of the Zoo matchups. Would have been nice to do so. The biggest thing I want to redo is my mana base. I originally had T.West + Dust Bowl in there. I like Dust Bowl for slower matchups, but I think I'm heading in the direction of Wastelands.

As for the SB, Negate really didn't see play for the entire tourney. This may be the Zoo talking, but I would have really liked to have BEB's in there. Again, I realize I played in a limited meta today, so that may not be the truth.

[rockout]

wow rockout? What do you mean by that morbid?

I'm actually considering going back down to 60 cards and running the 4th brainstorm.

In terms of BEB vs Negate, negate is going to be your combo hate as well as your burn hate. Its tough to have multiple bebs in your board and still able to bring in enough combo hate.

[Mark Sun]

wow rockout? What do you mean by that morbid?

I'm actually considering going back down to 60 cards and running the 4th brainstorm.

In terms of BEB vs Negate, negate is going to be your combo hate as well as your burn hate. Its tough to have multiple bebs in your board and still able to bring in enough combo hate.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to come out that way. I got up at 10:30 or so, started typing the report while eating breakfast, and hit refresh. Boom, another report :wink: I apologize for that if it mislead.

And yeah, there was *one* combo deck yesterday as far as I could tell, and as far as I could tell, it wasn't going very far once you countered the critical (insert mana ritual here).

[rockout]

Ah, gotcha. Hopefully our next tournament we will fair better.

[whiteshepherdman]

yeah running the 4th brainstorm is>than running say a spell snare. Spell snares good at hitting their 2 drops but it doesn't save you from inevitably getting overpowered. Running all 4 brainstorms in my opinion ensures that you hit your 4th land drop and by turn 4 get to start playing bombs to turn the game around. Getting hit by price of progress is really annoying and it seems like there's nothing we can do to stop burn/ red sligh from winning in 1 turn with 14 or so damage.

heres a question i've been thinking about: is it better to waste their lands early game and fall behind a turn on hitting 4 mana in exchange for slowing them down or keeping the waste to cast your board sweepers on turn 4

anyways, thanks for the reports rockout and morbid, they were very interesting to read

[konsultant]

I'm actually considering going back down to 60 cards and running the 4th brainstorm.

In terms of BEB vs Negate, negate is going to be your combo hate as well as your burn hate. Its tough to have multiple bebs in your board and still able to bring in enough combo hate.

Don't know if my most recent list got posted yet or not but I ran 3x Negate and 3x Hydroblast in the SB. Still had my 2x Chant as well.

While being the one to popularize the 3x Brainstorm approach I did insist that it was focused on being relevent in that particular list only. I wouldn't reccomend that strategy for any 61 card deck and it really only worked in that build because it was so focused on attrition and had a ton of Counter Magic and Removal MD the deck didn't need the 4th Brainstorm. That build also played considerably less 4 drops as I only ran 1x Elspeth and it was in the SB.

[rsaunder]

Don't know if my most recent list got posted yet or not but I ran 3x Negate and 3x Hydroblast in the SB. Still had my 2x Chant as well.

While being the one to popularize the 3x Brainstorm approach I did insist that it was focused on being relevent in that particular list only. I wouldn't reccomend that strategy for any 61 card deck and it really only worked in that build because it was so focused on attrition and had a ton of Counter Magic and Removal MD the deck didn't need the 4th Brainstorm. That build also played considerably less 4 drops as I only ran 1x Elspeth and it was in the SB.I haven't been having any issues running three brainstorm with two SDT. I know you guys have been looking at SDT as fulfilling the same role as FOF, but in my experience SDT also substitutes (though not necessarily quite as efficently) for brainstorm. If I wasn't running SDT (like rockout's recent list) I'd definitely want the 4 brainstorms.

That being said, Geoff, would you mind posting your list? I'm especially interested to see your board and what you were expecting to play against with that much hate.

[rockout]

The 4th brainstorm is almost never relevant except in those mana light god hands. The list has been doing exactly what it's meant to do against and the field and that's just win and control the board. Other than getting burned out through pulse and a little bit of a unlucky streak I felt the list could have easily made the top 8 through the field I described.

FoF > Top.

[konsultant]

I haven't been having any issues running three brainstorm with two SDT. I know you guys have been looking at SDT as fulfilling the same role as FOF, but in my experience SDT also substitutes (though not necessarily quite as efficently) for brainstorm. If I wasn't running SDT (like rockout's recent list) I'd definitely want the 4 brainstorms.

That being said, Geoff, would you mind posting your list? I'm especially interested to see your board and what you were expecting to play against with that much hate.

Sorry don't remember the differences between the test build I won the Trops with and the one I will be running at Gencon. I guess you can harass the guy who ran the event to put the lists up if he hasn't already.

I don't care for SDT personally in Landstill, I prefer card quantity over quality as long as the deck is built correctly you will win more games with quantity advatage than gaining improved card quality. Landstill is based on redundency not on silver bullets, although silver bullets can be game breakers at times.

@Rockout- I see your curve is lower than mine but running the 61st card throws off the land math at times. I don't really ever give advice on particular lists but I would cut the Disk, drop a FoF for the 4th Brainstorm, Drop an Extirpate from the SB and put a FoF in the SB. I'd probably also drop the Humility for the 3rd Wish and make a few SB changes accordingly. Just my 2 cents.

[Spur Grappler]

Is FoF really a card you want to wish for? I mean, when playing Wish you normally have a particluar problem you want a solution for. Playing Wish on FoF seems like win more to me (a little like Enlightened Tutor on Standstill). I think when there is no particular problem you shouldn't play your Wish and keep it untill there is something you need it for.

[Citrus-God]

Is FoF really a card you want to wish for? I mean, when playing Wish you normally have a particluar problem you want a solution for. Playing Wish on FoF seems like win more to me (a little like Enlightened Tutor on Standstill). I think when there is no particular problem you shouldn't play your Wish and keep it untill there is something you need it for.

Not at all. When you're casting Wish to "solve" a problem, you're being reactive. Wishing for FoF is being proactive, allowing you to get ahead of your opponent. When you see matches with control decks against other decks, when control decks have a tutor and a threat isnt present, they tend to go for card advantage to stay ahead of the opponent. And at times, there are definitely match ups you want to board FoF in.

[Ectoplasm]

Is FoF really a card you want to wish for? I mean, when playing Wish you normally have a particluar problem you want a solution for. Playing Wish on FoF seems like win more to me (a little like Enlightened Tutor on Standstill). I think when there is no particular problem you shouldn't play your Wish and keep it untill there is something you need it for.

What you're saying is you're holding on to a wish for when this problem arises, basically making your hand smaller since right now it's doing nothing :)
I guess that's what Konsultant means by redundancy. Resolving a FoF and digging 5 cards into your library should be enough to get all the answers you need, instead of waiting with a wish in hand.

[Spur Grappler]

Yes that makes sence. I will see if I can fit a FoF in my board. It looks like this at the moment:

2 Ajani
3 Path
3 Negate
1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
1 Crucible
1 Enlightened
1 Return to Dust
1 Relic
1 Crypt

Any suggestions?

[rsaunder]

No plague? One relic? And do you really need 2 ajani alongside pulse?

[Reagens]

He might be running vindicate and/or 3 EE's though :)
But I agree that boarding out FoW seems like a bad move, since winning a counterwar over say, elspeth or a wog, will become pretty hard.

I found out that much by myself.

First of all I am running the same main deck as Geoff.

The obvious would be to board out standstill. But if I do that, I doubt if I have enough blue cards to support FoW.
On the other hand if I actually drop FoW then I have very few early answers and can lose before I stabilize.

Vindicate may be another choice being at 3 mana and being a sorcery that goed 1 for 1. But quite a few Merfolk builds in my meta run Back 2 Basics so I might want to keep it in.

All in all a very difficult choice and I am still very unsure what is best.

[mossivo1986]

I think by now most of us have figured out which play style we prefer. Wether you prefer vindicate or wish or a mix of both makes all the ideal difference into what you build should or shouldn't look like.

If you choose to go with Vindicate then Geoff is more then likely correct in his assessment with redundancy over tool-box. Simply put Land Still is a deck loaded with answers to the meta-game. How proactive you choose to build is based mostly on your play style and skill level. As you see more information you start to understand more about the arch type and where it inevitable leaves you on a consistent basis in the meta game.

I personally feel like the Tool-Box strategy is the single strongest in the meta-game right now. Theres simply too many different arch types to build a list and prepare for only the meta. This is where the fight comes to either play white splash thresh (I believe is the most consistent boring deck in the format) or play with the knowledge you have and try to out prepare for other arch types. Land still is a deck that beats a meta game by knowledge and preperation. If you don't have it simply put you won't win.

Morbid wrote a report not too long ago with I believe a virtually Identical list to mine. His matchups included quite a few that i've tested extensively and consider knowledge of the match up and not card quality to beat your opponent. This is where I most strongly feel about the unique tool-box style of play of my build wins over a majority of the format. If you answer. Now Morbid didn't do so well in his match ups and I believe that in large part to side-boarding incorrectly and probobly some mis plays. That doesn't make him a bad player but one example was siding in relic against zoo. This is absolutely not necessary. POP was often more of a problem then it has been for me as of late as well and he played +1 island. This was very strange to me to be running 7 basic lands 6 fetches and still get blazed out of a game based on that card. I just think it's a knowledge difference with the deck and knowledge of the format.

Geoff mentioned something about how he doesn't like Top because he favors redundancy. I beg the question, How is top not more redundant and efficient then say FOF? While FOF can end games based on card quality and digging Top fundamentally does the same thing, earlier; and also creates virtual card advantage in matchups where you may or may not be able to win based on control of the board. I would dare say Geoff that Top creates more redundant situation and consistent removal over a longer period in time then FOF ever could hope for. Along with the given shuffle synergy with fetches how is Top not a given for land still?

Regarding Merfolk. Generally when I play the matchup I side out:

3 Still
1 jace
1 Vendillion/2 C.S. (If I see snare)/2 decree

You need a combined 6 slots. And while Geoff's approach to the matchup is different in that he uses decree's and wastelands to out manuever, I tend to raw dogg the matchup forcing the late game as long as possible; then create CA situations with EP into Elspeth and eventually Disk Elspeth lock. This shouldn't be overly difficult as your maindeck after siding should contain 17 removal (2 wish for pulse or e tutor or negate/counterspell if you need them).

Merfolks lack of Real CA is their downfall and if you can stop islandwalking and overredundant 1/1, 2/1, 2/2 beaters from hammering you then you can easily win with you inevitability post board. Granted the matchup is difficult but the approach I have taken is consistent and works. I'm probobly more then 50% in my matchups as of lately, and I can't remember the last time I lost to the deck in a full out match.

[Mark Sun]

Land still is a deck that beats a meta game by knowledge and preperation. If you don't have it simply put you won't win.

Morbid wrote a report not too long ago with I believe a virtually Identical list to mine. His matchups included quite a few that i've tested extensively and consider knowledge of the match up and not card quality to beat your opponent. This is where I most strongly feel about the unique tool-box style of play of my build wins over a majority of the format. If you answer. Now Morbid didn't do so well in his match ups and I believe that in large part to side-boarding incorrectly and probobly some mis plays. That doesn't make him a bad player but one example was siding in relic against zoo. This is absolutely not necessary. POP was often more of a problem then it has been for me as of late as well and he played +1 island. This was very strange to me to be running 7 basic lands 6 fetches and still get blazed out of a game based on that card. I just think it's a knowledge difference with the deck and knowledge of the format.

First part QFT.

And yeah, this was my first "bigger" tourney for a pretty long time, MWS testing helps, but doesn't substitute. I made the mistake of not doing a little heavier research or trying to find the metas. If I had know there were a little more unfavorable matchups, I might have tweaked the SB a little bit before submitting a list, but that's not a valid excuse for my actual game play.

In terms of SB'ing, retrospectively, yes moss, that was a bad decision with the Relic. I still need to get a little more intimate with the cards, reading a larger portion of the DtB/Established deck threads will probably help, but it was my fault for going in unprepared. Speaking of SB'ing, however, I was thinking about Imperial Painter (the list runs 7-8 Red Blasts). I may be seeing that soon, what is the best way to play around this matchup?

[Tinefol]

Theory question: suppose I'm splashing for 4 Smother/Diabolic Edict (1B) and 2 The Abyss (3B) and have 6 fetches - how many black sources do I have to run, given my meta has a notable amount of wastelands.

[Elf_Ascetic]

1 Swamp,
1 Scrubland
1-2 Sea should do fine.

[jazzykat]

Has anyone considered a 1/1/1 split with Humility/WoG/The Abyss?

[whiteshepherdman]

There are more aggro players in my meta than there are control players, blue decks show up as merfolk and tempo thresh so i've been testing this deck with Carabas for a while against, goyf sligh, tempo thresh, merfolk, and goblins and its been good for me:

1 Eternal dragon
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords
3 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Elspeth
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Plains
3 factories
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland

60 total- 24 lands

[whiteshepherdman]

I don't think the abyss could replace Wrath of God, your opponent could always play around it. Wrath of God gets rid of your problems while humility just makes them easier to deal with. Then the abyss would be just worse than humility because it doesn't deal with what's killing you at the moment. I'd splash black just for vindicate or plague at the moment. Test it though, this is just how i feel, i see how the abyss works cute with a ton of tokens and manlands buuuut is that worth it? mmm if i were to do a split, i'd try the 2 wraths 1 humility that rockout uses in his list.

[NQN]

Against Merrows I usually keep forces in allthough I know they suck postboard.
If you keep them, you have to sandbagg even brainstorms to force Plague/Wrath through their "pay1" shit and everything.
I also keep vendilion in the main because it often kills an attacking lord or steals a force so that EP can resolve even without more backup.
I believe this "strategy" is strong and has always worked great for me so far.

[Spur Grappler]

No plague? One relic? And do you really need 2 ajani alongside pulse?

In my meta there is not much the plague is good against except merfolk. I like the Ajanis in the mirror or against zoo (and i have to play against zoo in nealry every tournament) and they are quite good against merfolk too if I survive long enough to cast them of course. But the main reason for them is zoo where plague does nothing.

I have dicided to put the Crucible back in the main and now I go for 1 Extripate, 2 Relic, 1 Crypt (I play it because of Tolaria West and Academy Ruins)

But I think all the stuff in my board is more important than FoF.

[rsaunder]

@Moss: I'm starting to agree more and more. I've won countless games on the back of SDT and card selection... it's unfair.

@Merfolk: I'm not sure how I want to board for this matchup. I've played against some players that board OUT standstills against me, and when they do that I'm far less scared of vial. I generally have enough removal to deal with their lords and the matchup gets nice and easy. In this case, I think 1 FOW can get boarded out, but I don't think that this is the right play for the merfolk player, is it? It's the intuitive one but I haven't lost more than a few games against this strategy, largely due to epic manascrew.

Should I just assume that the merfolk player is going to keep standstill in? If so:

-3 Standstill
-3 Counterspell
+3 P2E
+3 Plague

If not.. I'm tempted to board out Spell Snares and standstills instead.

Post board, should I drop a pre-emptive EE@1 if I'm on the play or just haven't seen vial yet? Of course you EE@1 if they've already GOT a vial. I've had a lot of luck with this play since lots of lists are cutting stifle, but I'm just a tad curious as to how everyone else is playing it.

[whiteshepherdman]

The only weakness in my list is it can't hit 3 for EE if you need to get rid of a goblin warchief or a merfolk reejery but running 2 colors lets me play clique and path to exile which can remove these cards. Clique in my testing against merfolk has been able to hit 2 merfolk lords, one in hand and 1 in play. For me 2 colors is a lot more stable because i can play more basics and hit 4 lands without fearing wastelands. Without vindicates though, opposing planeswalkers become more intimidating. What are you thoughts?

[Citrus-God]

I don't think you should ever board Spell Snares out. Even the very thought of it just seems stupid to me. Being able to just counter Merrow-Reejerey, Lords and Standstill is super legit. Especially since it counters a Lord.

[whiteshepherdman]

I play spell snare in the sb and board it in when needed since we aren't controlling them only by counters but by a variety of other spells that manipulate the game state

[whiteshepherdman]

In the list i posted right above im also testing an U. Sea for an EE splash in case i need to fetch to hit 3cc, suggestions on which land i should take out?

[NQN]

I do play EE@1 turn against both, goblins and merrows. And I NEVER take spell snare out as it is the "best" answer to Silvergil Adept which is really one of the merrows I hate playing against. You can´t afford to waste a removal on him but neither can you take 2-3 dmg per turn :&

[katakis]

Hi everybody, I'm a long time reader but just registered today as I need some feedback on a Landstill build that I want to play at a side event at the german nationals this weekend. I especially need some advise on the sideboard.

// Lands (24)
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

// Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 Wrath of God
SB: 3 Path to Exile

Some basic explanations:

61 cards... I'm aware of this flaw. However, I'm not sure what to cut. The most likely candidate is disk. In a few games disk was the mvp but more often it was just too slow and almost a dead card. On the other hand I'm confused as most of you guys are running a 1of disk and seem to be content. How are your experiences with disk and in which matchups do you use it most?

2x Enlightened tutor MD...The thing that I dig most about Landstill is its flexibility and ability to beat such a huge variety of decks, i.e. it's good for an unknown meta. While I like e.tutor and the toolbox it offers, I dislike to play cunning wish into e.tutor into something gamebreaking as it is really slow. With e.tutors in the main I can more often play the gamebreaking stuff as soon as possible. Cunning wish just costs me one more turn.

The rest is pretty standard I think.

I'm still very unsure about the sideboard. The wish toolbox (Extirpate, pulse, R2D, P2E) is nothing special. Due to the 2 e.tutors main I like to fill the remaining spots with as much enchantments or artifacts as possible. However, I don't know if a singleton crypt is worth it. I'm unsure about Runed Halo as well. I'm planning to use it as a medicore combo hate, which can be usefull in some other matchups as well (ichorid, tempothresh, etc).
As all kinds of sligh and zoo are quite popular in germany right now, I really want to have an almost 100% matchup against these decks. That's the reason for the 2 Ajanis in the sideboard. But maybe that's overkill? Sadly I couldn't test that matchup. Anybody got some experience with Ajani alongside pulse vs aggro?

So any thoughts about this built and its sideboard?

[jimirynk]

@katakis
I would cut the 2 MD Etutor for 2 wraths out of the board.
Move 1 Etutor to the board as a wish target and cut a humility for the 4th Bstorm to make it a turn 4 wrath/humility/elspeth as consistent as possible.
Cut the crucible to the board.
60 card MD.
15 card SB.

I would say cut the halo's but I've never tested them.
I would cut both for 1 Negate and 1 FoF if you have 3 wishes FoF should deff. be in your SB in case you have 2 in hand.

Thoughts?

[radioactive yak]

I played runned halo for a long time and somtimes it can be good. The problem with it is that the disruption is at the end of the combo. Also Halo can't stop cards like empty the warens.
I think most people have been playing negate as their anti-combo card.

[GGoober]

From experience, combo isn't too good a matchup. I would say its 55/45 at best. Standstill is not too good if you let them build up a hand of hate. Unlike Countertop, we cannot lock them out and it depends on the number of counter we draw. If you have Negates + Mages in the SB, it's definitely a winnable matchup 60-65/40-35 in our favor. The main problem landstill has against combo is a lack of a good clock. Thresh without CB can still take combo by putting their life on a clock with Goyfs.

Depending on the combo builds. Duress builds are not that strong against us. Chant builds are VERY strong against us. I've tested against 6-8 chants ANT/NLS and it was nightmarish. You have to counter chant or lose. Countertop can afford not playing spells and countering but we can't. So Chant baits FOW/Counterspell. That's why I went with 3 Counterspell, 2-3 Spell Snare instead of 4 Snares simply because of the combo matchup. You can rely on Vindicate/Waste to buy some time but your clock is too slow. The favorability depends really if they're packing more than 4 Chants and how well you draw against them.

[mossivo1986]

Hi everybody, I'm a long time reader but just registered today as I need some feedback on a Landstill build that I want to play at a side event at the german nationals this weekend. I especially need some advise on the sideboard.

// Lands (24)
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

// Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 Wrath of God
SB: 3 Path to Exile

Some basic explanations:

61 cards... I'm aware of this flaw. However, I'm not sure what to cut. The most likely candidate is disk. In a few games disk was the mvp but more often it was just too slow and almost a dead card. On the other hand I'm confused as most of you guys are running a 1of disk and seem to be content. How are your experiences with disk and in which matchups do you use it most?

2x Enlightened tutor MD...The thing that I dig most about Landstill is its flexibility and ability to beat such a huge variety of decks, i.e. it's good for an unknown meta. While I like e.tutor and the toolbox it offers, I dislike to play cunning wish into e.tutor into something gamebreaking as it is really slow. With e.tutors in the main I can more often play the gamebreaking stuff as soon as possible. Cunning wish just costs me one more turn.

The rest is pretty standard I think.

I'm still very unsure about the sideboard. The wish toolbox (Extirpate, pulse, R2D, P2E) is nothing special. Due to the 2 e.tutors main I like to fill the remaining spots with as much enchantments or artifacts as possible. However, I don't know if a singleton crypt is worth it. I'm unsure about Runed Halo as well. I'm planning to use it as a medicore combo hate, which can be usefull in some other matchups as well (ichorid, tempothresh, etc).
As all kinds of sligh and zoo are quite popular in germany right now, I really want to have an almost 100% matchup against these decks. That's the reason for the 2 Ajanis in the sideboard. But maybe that's overkill? Sadly I couldn't test that matchup. Anybody got some experience with Ajani alongside pulse vs aggro?

So any thoughts about this built and its sideboard?

You obviously haven't read the thread because if you had you'd understand why your list doesn't and won't work on a consistent basis. theres a number of changes you'd need to make. all of which you'll understand when you actually read the thread.

So my advice is Read the Thread.

[Ectoplasm]

Time for lists! I'm considering taking either landstill (for the second time ever) or RGB goblins to a tourney in 2 weeks, and to be honest I want to get some more 'real' playtime with landstill so I'm leaning towards that.

Here's what I'm gonna bring:

24 land
6x fetch
4x tundra
1x sea
1x scrubland
2x island
2x plains
1x swamp
3x wasteland
3x mishra's factory
1x ruins

37 other things:
2x FoF
3x Brainstorm
1x Jace
3x Standstil

4x Plow
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives
3x WoG
1x Disk

3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x FoW

2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon

For a total of 61

Side (still moving stuff around, always changing)

2x Ajani
3x Meddling Mage
3x Preacher
2x Relic
3x Engineered Plague
2x Negate

Or something like that. We've got loads of combo in NL, but this tourney will be in Belgium so I'm confident with packing just 2 negates, the preachers have proven themselves in MWS testing to be at least playable but I've never used them in any competitive environment, though they seem pretty techy and cool.

I don't like taking the wish approach, neither do I like the filtering approach from SDT. I agree with Geoff on this deck's redundancy being enough to get there by just drawing shitloads of cards, with the added benefit of being able to run the swiss army knife vindicate and not having to invest mana into wishing/topping but just into answering.

[jimirynk]

Moss could I see you most current list?
I know you've always liked top are you running a 3/3/3 of bstorm/top/standstill?
Or 4/2/3?
What is you usual meta look like?

[maggot870]

@katakis: Mossivo is just fully right on his advice: Read the Thread first.
but well that answer would be a bit too easy...go for this config on the SB (I'm German too and maybe we will even face each other in Aschaffenburg as I plan to play @ Nats SE too):

SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo not sure about this but I run 2 Negate in that slot
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane -1 + 1 EPlague -1 +1 Relic/Tormod's
SB: 2 Wrath of God -2 +1 E Tutor/Crucible +1 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Path to Exile

for the MD I think:
-2 Etutor +1 SDT as wish / etutor are the same timeframe( casted EOT and resolution @ following turn or the turn after that (disc) and SDT is just so good in CQ that you likely don't have a need for tutors.
Cut the 2nd 1 for either BS #4 or just to get a 60 cards deck ^
-2 Fact -> 2 WOG :eek:
also if you think wishes are that clunky then go for vindicate.

but well as mossivo said: It's all written in this Thread, just dig it up as what I wrote is only reflecting like 5 % of the recent discussion on this deck

MfG vom Bodensee,
ThaSmok3r

p.s.: If this looks like acting as a $%&§%$& or (/§/$/)("/ any kind, it isn't meant to be, you have to be prepared well to post in this thread, as there are a lot of very good players in here (I don't count myself towards those).

[Tinefol]

As for the lists, personally I'm leaning to the Ultimate Walker approach lately. And I've tested everything, black splash, green splash, red splash, with or without Wish,Vindicate, Disk, Top, The Abyss etc. The list I've settled on as of late:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Plateau
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [TE] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice

Pros:
* Better early game against merfolk, as I'm playing against it nearly every tournament.
* Planeswalkers power. Seriously, these guys and girls are endless sources of card advantage for investment of one card and 3-4 mana. Something, that gives us inevitabilty, much like survival or loam engine.
* A whopping 23 Blue cards count - very good for your FoWs

Cons:
* Due to the lack of vindicate or wish is somewhat weaker to CounterTop - but that is non-existent in my meta.
* No Decree. Our late game bombs are PW ultimates.

[GGoober]

Exactly Tinefol. That's a solid Ultimate/Landstill list. I was writing to Enigma in the Ultimate Walker post that his most recent list is basically Landstill without Brainstorm and Ancestral Vision over Standstill. (Go compare his recent list. It's an entire replicate of UWb Wishstill without Brainstorm and replacing Standstill with Visions).

To be perfectly honest, Ultimate Walker will eventually become a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 3 Standstill. Vision is just horrible in a general meta of countertop/standstill. If you suspended Visions, in a developed meta, who's to stop the opponent from dropping/resolving Standstill/Counterbalance? By then you have no control of Visions and you end up cracking a Standstill or flipping it to CB. Not to mention that Visions is a bad topdeck. It's an amazing turn 1-3 but your opponent will have 3-4 turns to prepare against it. I'd rather have Fact to draw/dig more than Visions in the mid-late game.

So in the end, PW Landstill might be an subarchetype of landstill. What governs Ultimate Walker now is that they don't run Standstill but for us playing Landstill, we know that resolving Standstill isn't as hard as it seems. You can even resolve Standstill in face of a Bob, since you have factories. I've done this multiple times and in the end I raced Bob in both life totals and card advantage. Landstill is much more skill intensive than Ultimate walker because Standstill is a more skill intensive spell. Its rewards for the better player: Ancestral Recall at your pleasure.

I do like the Walker Landstill hybrid, but I ultimately think that it plays more like Landstill than any legacy deck. You have it right there that the bombs are Planeswalker ultimate. One weakness of Walkers is that it's heavily reliant on 4cc bombs, and in an unfavorable board position, the walkers become terrible cards.

And seriously, even in Ultimate Walker, I think that Standstill > Visions since Walkers have so much synergy with Standstill. Best of luck with the list. I like the build so far and I'm a fan of Fire//Ice. you can consider Helix as suggested by Klaus, which drops the blue count to 19. Doable and perhaps better against Zoo and Painter. Fire//Ice is king against Gobs/Bobs so it's your take on the meta. I guess Fire//Ice warrants more than Helix since it has a little synergy with Vengeant.

[rockout]

@Ectoplasm: I love your list mainly because it looks just like mine. Well done, sir.

[GGoober]

My list from ectoplasm:

-1 Wrath
-1 land
-1 Vindicate
+2 Wish
+1 EE

Solid list ectoplasm. It's nice seeing personal lists getting in tuned independently, and tuned according to playstyles. I am beginning to feel the unnecessity of tutorbox redundancy. I miss the old approach of Draw-go MUC deep into answers. Kudos for Geoff and the rest for playing a non-tutorbox approach and lists that look solid and optimized.

[Ectoplasm]

Been considering the 3rd EE for a while, but I think it's unneccesary when running 3 vindicates. Then again I'm a vindicate-junkie and I'd rather run 4 than 3 so cutting it is not an option :)
I've decided to up the landcount to 24 because I love making landdrops, and I love making landdrops in the face of eva green and stifles even more, which is pretty prevalent around here as well even though merfolk lists seem to cut them.

@Rockout: Thanks

[Benie Bederios]

Hi everybody, I'm a long time reader but just registered today as I need some feedback on a Landstill build that I want to play at a side event at the german nationals this weekend. I especially need some advise on the sideboard.

// Lands (24)
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

// Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 Wrath of God
SB: 3 Path to Exile

Some basic explanations:

61 cards... I'm aware of this flaw. However, I'm not sure what to cut. The most likely candidate is disk. In a few games disk was the mvp but more often it was just too slow and almost a dead card. On the other hand I'm confused as most of you guys are running a 1of disk and seem to be content. How are your experiences with disk and in which matchups do you use it most?

2x Enlightened tutor MD...The thing that I dig most about Landstill is its flexibility and ability to beat such a huge variety of decks, i.e. it's good for an unknown meta. While I like e.tutor and the toolbox it offers, I dislike to play cunning wish into e.tutor into something gamebreaking as it is really slow. With e.tutors in the main I can more often play the gamebreaking stuff as soon as possible. Cunning wish just costs me one more turn.

The rest is pretty standard I think.

I'm still very unsure about the sideboard. The wish toolbox (Extirpate, pulse, R2D, P2E) is nothing special. Due to the 2 e.tutors main I like to fill the remaining spots with as much enchantments or artifacts as possible. However, I don't know if a singleton crypt is worth it. I'm unsure about Runed Halo as well. I'm planning to use it as a medicore combo hate, which can be usefull in some other matchups as well (ichorid, tempothresh, etc).
As all kinds of sligh and zoo are quite popular in germany right now, I really want to have an almost 100% matchup against these decks. That's the reason for the 2 Ajanis in the sideboard. But maybe that's overkill? Sadly I couldn't test that matchup. Anybody got some experience with Ajani alongside pulse vs aggro?

So any thoughts about this built and its sideboard?

I quite like the MD Enlightened Tutor, but there are tons of cards you can cut, to go to 60. My choices would be:

-1 Enlightened Tutor
It still gives you 4 EE and 4 Standstill and 3 Humility, so one should be enough.

-1 Humility
With Enlightened Tutor it should be enough.

-1 Cunning Wish
I have no real reason, but most of players agree on 2 Cunning Wishes

But If I would play a list like yours I would do:

-1 Humility
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Enlightened Tutor

+1 Wrath of God
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Standstill

You want to draw Standstill early, especially in a random meta and I won't want to use a wish for it, because I want to use it to win the game. Wrath of God is needed I think, with Disk you have two big sweepers. I always liked the fourth Brainstorm in a Cunning Wish build.

You might want to play a more traditional manabase with Tolaria West instead of a Wasteland. 2 Wastelands as your only LD isn't that hot and Tolaria West can find EE and Academy Ruins.

Ectoplasm:

Wich tournament would you go to. At first glance the change I would make is to remove Academy Ruins. In our meta it isn't really needed. I ended without it 4 times in row top 2.

Preacher is a fun choice, but I wonder how good it would be. It doesn't do much in bad matchups and makes easy matchups a cakewalk. The only difficult matchup where it would be good would be Merfolk, but I like Shackles better there.

BB

[Ectoplasm]

Ectoplasm:

Wich tournament would you go to. At first glance the change I would make is to remove Academy Ruins. In our meta it isn't really needed. I ended without it 4 times in row top 2.

Preacher is a fun choice, but I wonder how good it would be. It doesn't do much in bad matchups and makes easy matchups a cakewalk. The only difficult matchup where it would be good would be Merfolk, but I like Shackles better there.

BB

It would be Antwerpen, the 30th. I've been considering different kinds of generic 'help' vs creatures like PtE, shackles, sower etc but Preacher seems like a solid choice since he'll probably survive anyway (except vs zoo) since most people board out their spotremoval and it could take them by surprise :) I really like him and I'm going to take him for a testdrive, nothing more nothing less.

I've actually considered dropping the ruins but it just seems counter-intuitive after adding a disk to the list, I'm gonna give it one more shot but I really wasn't impressed by it last time even though it proved itself to be useful in random testgames.

[Mijorre]

From what I've seen in store the other day, expect goblins, merfolk and ANT. The ANT player might actually opt for rock. There's a small chance at affinity, a likely showing of TES and some old fashioned counter-top probability.
I'm sure Nathan's gonna be playing merfolk though. We've played through some test games wednesday :).
The previous top 8 had Affinity, Lands/Zur, Merfolk, Eva Green, Eva Green, Gobbos, Rock and Dredge. It was... a diverse field over the day, last time.
We had two high tide decks out there, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern, as one of the players switched to TES.
That's off the top of my head though, hope it helps.

[Ectoplasm]

Alright! Thanks for the heads-up at least :D I've never had the guts to drop the meddling mages because last time I dropped my combohate (which was when I played goblins) I got 3 full rounds of ANT and solidarity to goldfish through.

[mossivo1986]

You got a very impressive track record.

You got 6th place in a tournament which 18 ppl attended, and then you got 7th place in another tournament with 22 participants.

Whenever someone post a different approach of landstill then your's, you tend to tell them how wrong they are and how good you're at playing landstill.

So don't lie and tell me you got any victories, when 6th and 7th place is the best you can do (lol).

It's not a pile, and the deck looks good to me (i'd do minor changes maybe, but still won't change the deck)

Everybody knows stores generally don't keep up with Deck Check, but I must say it is nice to know your able to surf up my name through that website.

As for different approaches yes I can be critical, but I know whats good and whats trash; which, apparently you don't and thats ok but don't try to start shit with me when your favoring a deck playing 2 maindeck humility and count them 0 wrath of god in the main. Also 2 spell snare is so .. hmm a year ago? Maybe longer? Everyone knows spell snare is a 3-4 of maindecked in land still.

There isn't an exception in this meta-game besides perhaps Geoff's removal package of:
3 wrath 3 vindicate 3 ee 4 stp 2 disk
which is an absolute monstrosity of removal. But then again who am I to argue with you? I mean so far you've spent your 1 day of posts arguing with the guy who's been backing UWb Wish Still for the last 8-9 months when everyone else said "Oh the meta's too fast, or oh it isn't as efficient as Vindicate."

Let's keep it very clear that you've got basically no credibility here with no list and damn near no posts. Not to mention your trying to pick a fight with someone who doesn't give a fuck what you say. I've tested the FULL meta and so far everyone who comes asking for a model seems to be pretty happy when I show them mine.

Also if your going to talk about my matches try R.T.F.T first instead of deck check. If you read a bit further you'll find that i've played a hell of a lot more tourneys then 2 and if you check this thread, and the old land still thread you'll find I more then likely have alot more experience with this archetype as a whole then you.

[rsaunder]

Just to get everything back on topic-ish, I wanted to propose a train of thought I've been entertaining and see who salutes or what anyone can add. So bare with me talking through this. My list is a couple pages back, but for the record it's one of those 60 card lists with 24 land and this draw base:

2 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 [other draw]

Now, there are really three choices for the "other draw" slot, Brainstorm, Jace and FoF. I haven't gotten any really seriously different testing results with either of them (in face, 1 jace and another utility slot worked well, though I feel the dedicated card draw is better. And no, I don't like 3x top, that's one thing I've concluded).

I have honestly never wanted more card selection than I have right now with the 3/2 brainstorm SDT split so I don't feel that brainstorm#4 is the right call. Jace and FoF seem to fulfill the role of "massive card advantage" nicely, though both have their pros and cons. FoF is a great EOT play which allows for a more reactive mid-late game, but Jace doubles as a kill condition and is basically GG against anything once he gets going. I also find he's good against aggro (which I never saw coming) since he comes online quickly, divides the opponent's attention, and wins me the game outright if he sticks around. It's only been against Zoo or something like goblins that I mind giving my opponent extra draw power (Jace usually goes -1, draw a card, gets burned out) so I've felt FoF is oddly superior there. Everywhere else, I've wanted a couple jaces. I know Moss and I discussed briefly in PM what Jace's role was, but I feel like he deserves a couple MB slots, at least in a build like mine at the moment.

Thoughts?

[GGoober]

If your meta is less Zoo and more Thresh, play Jace since you can deal with the board easier with Landstill's resources. If the meta is more Affinity/Zoo, go for FoF since Jace won't stay against Burn and a horde of early beater. He's easily a dead card. It's hard to resolve FoF against Zoo, but your playstyle is to be less greedy, do 1 for 1s e.g. EE@1 blow up 1 Nacatl instead of waiting on an army of 1 drops. My experience is that I tend to play greedy, I use my life to gamble for x for 1s, but I end up losing because of that misplay. If you're playing FoF, you can afford to be less greedy and do 1 for 1s, try to survive to turn 4, and FoF EOT for a bunch of new resources. By then, you have 4 lands and more, in a stabilized position with new cards, and you should own the game by then.

Then again, all the above depends on your hand, but from experience, Jace is good in threat light decks. If your meta is Zoo/Tribal/Affinity, I opt with FoF or even the 4th Brainstorm to try stabilizing. The 3rd top is actually bad, not because I see Top in multiples, but simply because I find that relying on Top decreases the ability of making better play decisions. And not to complain about a wonderful card like Top but there's one thing that Top doesn't do in this deck: net a card. I've found this to be highly critical where I needed to draw the card and have a card other than Top in my next draw. I can always activate to arrange and then respond tap draw to rearrange top back, but Brainstorm is much more efficient in when I actually need to dig and get the card I need.

That's the reason why the 3rd Top is bad for me, it's not an argument to not run the 3rd Top, but it's my taste and playstyle that I detest the 3rd Top. Moss plays his deck differently so he loves it more than I do lol but if I had a choice in my meta, I'd cut top. But my meta is so LD-hatred and Blood Mooned that it's stupid to not play Top.

[rockout]

I almost never ask for your guys opinion anymore. Its not due to lack of respect. I'm going to post my newest list and allow you to pick it apart and see if you guys can tell me something I don't see. My next tournament I'm expecting a lot of blue based control.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

Might also go -1 standstill +1 jace

[GGoober]

My list is the same except

-1 Wasteland
-1 Swamp
+1 Plains
+1 Tundra

at least for me 6 colorless sources is idea. I can do a hypogeometric distribution to see if that 1 colorless source really matters when I have time.

-1 Vindicate
-1 Crucible
+1 Disk
+2 Top

I personally might cut top for more draw power again. But like I said my meta strains my manabase so Top is ideal.

I understand what you mean that you don't want advice from all of us. I feel the same way too, because Landstill plays as a very adaptive deck. The card choices aren't nailed down unlike Tempo Thresh builds. Landstill is a highly flexible deck that adapts to the meta. If your meta is too manabase screwy, counterspells are taken out for Spell Snares. If your eta has no Vial.dec or fast aggro, you can play 4 Standstill. If your meta is heavy mirror, then play 2 Jace. It's a beautiful deck and I think to find the optimal list is to basically stop the discussion of the deck, which isn't good. There is probably an optimal list for the current meta (NLU, combo, Thresh, Zoo, Folks) and it seems like aside from 3-5 card choices, our general shell against today's meta is the same.

I like the 3 Counterspells. It's needed because Spell Snare cannot do much against combo outside of tutors. Neither does it stop Chant, which is huge since if it resolves your spell snare becomes useless.

[rockout]

The only decks that I've lost to in the past few months has been burn, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror. Other than that, it might as well be a bye.

[gustha]

After a top4 in the biggest online italian summer event (see here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28469), "only" 68 players this year), I began to think about a hybrid list and came to similar conclusions. Here's my hybrid landstill 3.0:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UG] Plains
1 [UG] Swamp
2 [UG] Island

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [A] Counterspell
1 [TE] Humility
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

60 cards total. Optimized manabase, no wasteland though, even with crucible. Less basics and more fetches, this time. I prefer developing a long-term game so no need of more uncolored lands then necessary. Preferred humility above disk, which nonetheless I love, for 2 reasons: a) lack of wrath; b) disk is almost overkill, with the combination of vindicate+wish. Fof over top for the basic reason that the deck is quite linear and most of its tools are very versatile, so many times doesn't really matter which answer you draw, but to draw answer. So card quantity has been privileged over card quality, and thus fof over top. Decrees been cut for no room and wrath for playstyle/cost-effect ratio (always ihmo).

A third Elspeth has been added. I thought it was crap, but: a) we want to see it always, in every game, 2 is not enough (it's not a mere utility, it's game breaker); b) less counter backup required. The downside is that an extirpate on elspeth hurts. (Black based is already a problem, who cares...)
Not so much to say about the sb. Disenchant effect barely needed, just a fracturing gust or 2 if we plan to face stax/enchantress (then we should not play landstill...), in the room of chant. 2 chants are metaslots, maybe a 1/1 split between extirpate and chant would do better. I'm also higly reconsidering extirpate as a 3x, there are many mu's in which we'll be glad to see it, and it's not obvious that we win the mirror.

@rockout: if you plan to see many blue based control, I'd go -1 humility -1 crucible +2 extirpate, and maybe cut the wraths for MD path, or +1/2 jace.

[TheCramp]

The only decks that I've lost to in the past few months has been burn, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror.

I don't know if you have encountered this in your testing vs. zoo, but Sylvan Library (if they can stick it) invalidates the Pulse plan. You have a shit ton of ways to deal with it, (vindicate, spell snare, EE, force, etc.) but they only need one upkeep to rob you of a lot of time to maneuver pulse into a viable insurance plan.

[rockout]

If they want to play library and not a goyf I'm ok with that. If its not beat my face or burning me I could care less.

[rsaunder]

If they want to play library and not a goyf I'm ok with that. If its not beat my face or burning me I could care less.

By the time I want to get pulse online, SL is an amazing threat for zoo, giving them both more gas and an out to pulse. Definitely a must counter mid-game, and a mis-play for the zoo player early game.

[rockout]

By the time I want to get pulse online, SL is an amazing threat for zoo, giving them both more gas and an out to pulse. Definitely a must counter mid-game, and a mis-play for the zoo player early game.

I can agree with that.

[Omega]

So far, if I read correctly, against an AGGRO (zoo, Merfolk and Elves) meta (and Aggro-control in the Threshold like), I am better with alot of removals (like Geoff?)

I am considering
3 wrath of god
2 vindicate (3?)
3 Engineered explosives (2 + 1 disk?)
4 STP

It's still less than the 3 wog-3 vindi-2 EE-2 Disk -4 STP split from Geoff

I'm still trying to fit in some SDT. I'm really convinced about its power. But I don't know if I want to cut a brainstorm for it

At the moment
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 fact or fiction
2 cunning wish (love those!)

I want to fit in 2 SDT and 1 Crucible of Worlds

Most deck, I expect, will run mana denial. I already run 1 dragon. Maybe a COW would help too.
I already play wasteland in the MD, but they don'T seem very usefull without the COW

any thoughts?
Counterspells are : 2cs 4 fow, 2 ss


What are your thoughts about 0 Spellsnare? (like geoff)
My biggest concern with SS is that they can counter alot of powerful 2cc threats. But on the other hand, the huge bombs played in the deck can easily compensate those threats being uncountered.

[Citrus-God]

I almost never ask for your guys opinion anymore. Its not due to lack of respect. I'm going to post my newest list and allow you to pick it apart and see if you guys can tell me something I don't see. My next tournament I'm expecting a lot of blue based control.

No biggie.


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon


You only ever need 3 Black sources in addition to your fetchlands. You should replace a Underground Sea with a Tundra. Perhaps also cut a Flooded Strand for another Polluted Delta so it can fetch a basic Swamp easier during the early stages of the game.




// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

You should replace the Crucible of Worlds with another DoJ. In the long run, DoJ is going to be more helpful against blue based control compared to CoW. Also, a lot of blue based control is running Wastelands nowadays, so they can just Waste your Academy Ruins if that's your only out to recurring your CoW.


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

Against Control, Extirpate might be more handy. Then again, it seems a little win-more with 4 Negates in the sideboard already. Although, 4 Negates may be handy, but I personally think you only ever need 3. A nifty thing to do here is replace a copy of Negate with a Spell Snare. You can wish for it during Game 1s, and after that the Spell Snare can be boarded in to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand. Also, in games where you would board Negates in against, Spell Snares are good against those decks too. So try that, because my results with having a 4th Spell Snare in the SB has been really helpful. You should also try and squeeze in a Fracturing Gust in there, but it might be a little overkill since you're running 3 Vindicate and 3 EE maindeck.

[mossivo1986]

You should replace the Crucible of Worlds with another DoJ. In the long run, DoJ is going to be more helpful against blue based control compared to CoW. Also, a lot of blue based control is running Wastelands nowadays, so they can just Waste your Academy Ruins if that's your only out to recurring your CoW.

Pretty much agreed. Though I still prefer the inevitability one has with ruins cow lock into eventually disk lock with elspeth, your reasoning makes sense.



Against Control, Extirpate might be more handy. Then again, it seems a little win-more with 4 Negates in the sideboard already.

Agreed. Better off with the 3rd decree here in my opinion. Or for that matter mind slaver which I haven't gotten to fully test but seems like it would be a huge bomb for inevitability.


Although, 4 Negates may be handy, but I personally think you only ever need 3.

Yep.


A nifty thing to do here is replace a copy of Negate with a Spell Snare. You can wish for it during Game 1s, and after that the Spell Snare can be boarded in to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand.

Interesting idea, and if he does choose to run the fourth permission slot I would strongly recommend this with 3 md cs.


Also, in games where you would board Negates in against, Spell Snares are good against those decks too.

Except against ant.


So try that, because my results with having a 4th Spell Snare in the SB has been really helpful.


Rockout and I should both test this. I'll let you know how my testing turns out.


You should also try and squeeze in a Fracturing Gust in there, but it might be a little overkill since you're running 3 Vindicate and 3 EE maindeck.

I tested Gust and while I enjoyed it immensly when it was insane, it was obviously either insane or just a waste. I'd rather play R2D as it has been much more consistent and basicly solves the problems - affinity (Winnable without mass arti-hate)

Overall I like your points. One thing i've been trying to do is cutt r2d as im running highlander vindicate in favor of 3rd decree + COW in the board.

[Citrus-God]

Interesting idea, and if he does choose to run the fourth permission slot I would strongly recommend this with 3 md cs.

It's amazing. Spell Snare is just such a golden counter.


Except against ant.

ANT got fucked in the ass hard by new rulings. I wouldn't fear ANT as a deck at this point with 3 Negates, 3 Counterspells, 4 FoWs and 4 Spell Snares.



Rockout and I should both test this. I'll let you know how my testing turns out.

I guarantee that your results will make a topdecked Wish a more efficient card in those scenarios. I really like my Wish board right now, as it is amazingly efficient and redundant.



Overall I like your points. One thing i've been trying to do is cutt r2d as im running highlander vindicate in favor of 3rd decree + COW in the board.

Sideboards are sideboards. They will never stay the same. Some days, you will have to run something else in place of those Vindicates, but perhaps today is not that day.

[Benie Bederios]

Sorry guys, I went to a tournament yesterday and failed horribly. I ended 6th after 6 rounds with a 4-2 score in 24 person tournament. I lost against Zoo and Goyf Sligh, because I made to much mistakes( it are both matchups where you can't make mistakes.)

I did win against Merfolk and Aggro-Loam so that's good. How should the Loam matchup be? I'm 4-0(8-2) playing against Loam in tournaments, so I don't really fear it. But both here and in the Aggro-Loam thread people say the matchup is in favor of Loam. G1 is though but if you can land Humility you have good changes. G2 is alot easier with boarding in 10 spells( 1 Crucible of Worlds, 3 Path to Exile, 4 Relic of Progenitus and 2 Ajani Goldmane.) All the cards boarded in can boarded against other decks as well.

Benie

[Mark Sun]

Or for that matter mind slaver which I haven't gotten to fully test but seems like it would be a huge bomb for inevitability.

:eek:

Uhhh, I'm playing this Wednesday, I might be able to get a hold of one and pop it in the list.

Sounds absolutely hilarious.

[rockout]

@citrus: why would I ever want to wish for spell snare? I want to only really wish for stuff that's going to win me the game like extirpate pulse or tutor for humility

[Ectoplasm]

I'd love to mindslaver someone but it would be cost 10 mana each turn to play + activate it, plus 2 for the academy ruins activation + the ruins itself so I guess it would be impossible?
Unless you're going to slaver every 2nd turn or something, which is still funny but not half as good.

[mossivo1986]

I'd love to mindslaver someone but it would be cost 10 mana each turn to play + activate it, plus 2 for the academy ruins activation + the ruins itself so I guess it would be impossible?
Unless you're going to slaver every 2nd turn or something, which is still funny but not half as good.

Slaver hypatheticly should win you the game the turn you activate it and use it on your opponent in the control matchup. Especially in the mirror. Force them to cast that FOF they drew and pull a 5-0 pile and choose NOTHING. Shuffle away a top and find no land with the fetch, wrath their favorable board position away. STP their own factories. Wish and find no card outside the game. ect. ect. The game should be absolutely over when you take their turn the first time. If you need to ruins it back thats absolutely fine.

[Ectoplasm]

Well, yeah, I guess that makes sense, activating their own factories and plowing them/running them into yours and stuff like that.
Seems like a pretty cool idea actually :D Fuckit, that one's on my to-do-list as well as trying out those preachers next tourney.

[Mark Sun]

Well, yeah, I guess that makes sense, activating their own factories and plowing them/running them into yours and stuff like that.
Seems like a pretty cool idea actually :D Fuckit, that one's on my to-do-list as well as trying out those preachers next tourney.

I'm also trying out Shining Shoal in the board for the next one as well. As for the Slaver, would be great to see Elspeth at 8, take over, play another Elspeth from their hand...

And yeah, I still want to work in Tsabo's Decree somehow. Too mana intensive and counter bait, but wouldn't hurt to try it out.

[MEATROCKET]

I wish I had a larger Legacy scene in my state so I could test some ideas I have. Has anyone tried to abuse Gifts Ungiven in this deck? Finding room for it wouldn't be hard if you run 3 Fact or Fictions; just cut one of them for a Gifts. (If you run 2 FoFs I'm not sure what you would cut...because I really think you should be playing 2 FoFs!) You can use it along with Tolaria West (which some people already use) to set up Crucible + Waste or Academy Ruins + EE. That seems pretty good and doesn't change the deck at all.

Going a little further, if you run Enlightened and/or Mystical Tutor, you can set up some downright savage Gifts piles.

Like I said, I wish I could test this myself before throwing the idea at you guys. Or maybe the Vintage player inside me just wants to use Gifts in Legacy :tongue:

[Shawn]

Has anyone tried to abuse Gifts Ungiven in this deck?
The problem with Gifts is the same problem Intuition, it's slooooowww, mana-intensive, and is reliant on the graveyard. While they both are powerful, Fact or Fiction is just better since it's better when you are behind. It also requires you to play green for Life from the Loam, a second Academy Ruins, or a second Tolaria West, which aren't very enticing options.


Me, earlier on Intuition:
Often when I was playing the UWg list, I found myself finding half of a lock piece when I had the other in my hand, so Tolaria West would've done essential the same thing.


As for the Slaver, would be great to see Elspeth at 8, take over, play another Elspeth from their hand...

The "Planeswalker uniqueness rule" doesn't destroy them, it puts them into the graveyard:

704.5j If two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "planeswalker uniqueness rule."

Regardless, if you have Elspeth at eight in the control mirror, chances are you are going to win without the Mindslaver.

[Mark Sun]

The "Planeswalker uniqueness rule" doesn't destroy them, it puts them into the graveyard:

Regardless, if you have Elspeth at eight in the control mirror, chances are you are going to win without the Mindslaver.

What I was trying to say was if they have their Elspeth at 8, it can be a way to take advantage of the Mindslaver should they have another in their hand. Another situation on the long list of things that you could do Post-Slaver.

The reason that's a little more appealing is because I don't run Vindicate, so I need another outing against Planeswalkers.

I wonder if I could run only 2 EE/1 Disk and make EE #3 into MS. Might go up to 24 lands to support this. Gah.

[Citrus-God]

@citrus: why would I ever want to wish for spell snare? I want to only really wish for stuff that's going to win me the game like extirpate pulse or tutor for humility

Why would you have 4 Negates in your sideboard when you could have 3 Negates and a Spell Snare?

Well, if we're talking about Game 1, then with that build, you really cant Wish->Tutor and search up Humility, mainly because you dont have one in the maindeck. Also, Spell Snares counter Price of Progress... for those rare few times you only have 4 mana open. Spell Snare also doesn't get Krosan Gripped, unlike Humility.

[gustha]

Why would you have 4 Negates in your sideboard when you could have 3 Negates and a Spell Snare?

Well, if we're talking about Game 1, then with that build, you really cant Wish->Tutor and search up Humility, mainly because you dont have one in the maindeck. Also, Spell Snares counter Price of Progress... for those rare few times you only have 4 mana open. Spell Snare also doesn't get Krosan Gripped, unlike Humility.

If he worries about the mirror match, maybe the 3/3 split is enough. I'd probably drop 1 negate 1 etutor (not really useful in this build) for 2 extirpate, and drop that humility for vedalken shackles, which is less dead in mirror matches and is good as 1-of.

SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague

Much more solid SB, maybe there's room somewhere for another fof, if he wishes to add jace MD (dropping 1/2 fof).

[whiteshepherdman]

since goblins, sligh, goyf sligh are our more difficult matchups, would warmth be a useful sb card?

[Ectoplasm]

If you really want to dedicate slots to hating red I think COP: Red or Chill would be the superior options.

[MattH]

If you really want to dedicate slots to hating red I think COP: Red or Chill would be the superior options.

Sphere of Law probably has the most impact, certainly I like it better than keeping infinite mana open for COP. Chill is pretty sad against goblins and not THAT amazing against burn-y decks unless you draw multiples (it's not like you're going to win a race by slowing them down, you're landstill FFS).

Probably BEB/Hydroblast are still the best overall since they're randomly useful elsewhere (Dragon Stompy, some storm combo, some loam decks), but if it's burn spells specifically you want to beat (as opposed to goblins), try Sun Droplet.

[rockout]

@Citrus: I said I expect a lot of blue based control which is why I added the 4th negate.

[Shriekmaw]

Slaver hypatheticly should win you the game the turn you activate it and use it on your opponent in the control matchup. Especially in the mirror. Force them to cast that FOF they drew and pull a 5-0 pile and choose NOTHING. Shuffle away a top and find no land with the fetch, wrath their favorable board position away. STP their own factories. Wish and find no card outside the game. ect. ect. The game should be absolutely over when you take their turn the first time. If you need to ruins it back thats absolutely fine.


I'm not even completly sure why we are talking about terrible cards like mindslaver in landstill at all. There are better cards I would want to see if we are talking about the mirror in general. In a lot of matches you don't even have academy ruins out b/c of wasteland for the most part, so you want to play cards that will give you the tempo/card advantage because thats all what the mirror is about.

I would not want to pay 6 mana for a spell that doesn't win you the game. Unless you get recurring mindslavers, I don't see how this card is even good, especially in legacy.

[Elfrago]

Probably BEB/Hydroblast are still the best overall since they're randomly useful elsewhere (Dragon Stompy, some storm combo, some loam decks), but if it's burn spells specifically you want to beat (as opposed to goblins), try Pulse of the Fields, that also randomly pwns aggro.

Fixed. :smile:

Oh and btw Mindslaver is awful. If you're resolving a 6 cc sorcery speed spell with a 4cc acivation cost you're already winning the game..

[whiteshepherdman]

hmm i guess pulse, well i'm already playing pulse but keeping mana open to pulse when I'm low on life against burn is really annoying and they just wait till I pulse to in response fireblast or pop/ fork reb the crap out of me. Perhaps ajani goldmane is the best after all.. haha after all that card discussion we just end up where we started

[rockout]

hmm i guess pulse, well i'm already playing pulse but keeping mana open to pulse when I'm low on life against burn is really annoying and they just wait till I pulse to in response fireblast or pop/ fork reb the crap out of me. Perhaps ajani goldmane is the best after all.. haha after all that card discussion we just end up where we started

That tends to happen a lot.

[mossivo1986]

nickrit2000

I would not want to pay 6 mana for a spell that doesn't win you the game. Unless you get recurring mindslavers, I don't see how this card is even good, especially in legacy.


You don't see how this card is even good?


Vintage Lists
(http://www.deckcheck.net/qsearch.php?query=slaver)


Extended Tron var. (http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Extended)

As you can see Slavor is a premier control concept in big mana lists format-wide. Now obviously tron and the fast mana of vintage play alot differently then Landstill does. This means that Landstill shouldn't play such a slow card in a format that can end matches with t1 top t2 CB. What I am suggesting is that slaver be placed in the sideboard as a true answer to the mirror match, MUC, and others. The other option is that we play a 3rd decree, but honestly i'm done playing safe cards and honestly I think this is the overall-better choice.

-What are the odd's that an opponent recovers from a Mind Slaver "Crack" in the mirror/ control matchup?


Elfrago

Oh and btw Mindslaver is awful. If you're resolving a 6 cc sorcery speed spell with a 4cc acivation cost you're already winning the game..


Thats not true at all in the mirror match as well as in other matchups that have 90 stall cards and 3 win conditions. The idea is that you need to find cards that get around their (Window) and think outside the box in order to establish a level of control in specific matchups.

This is why Geoff uses creative intelligance/thinking to win unfavorable matchups. Cards like Lilliana/preacher didn't come from just randomly thinking a card is good (For the most part.)

Also another note:

What does every control deck want in the mirror/ other control matchups?

Answer: Inevitability.

Edit:

Also keep in mind that the red zone is not what dictates the Control Matchup/ its the card quality

[Shawn]

What I was trying to say was if they have their Elspeth at 8, it can be a way to take advantage of the Mindslaver should they have another in their hand. Another situation on the long list of things that you could do Post-Slaver.
Ah, my bad.


nickrit2000
You don't see how this card is even good?

Vintage Lists (http://www.deckcheck.net/qsearch.php?query=slaver)

Extended Tron var. (http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Extended)

What does every control deck want in the mirror/ other control matchups?

Answer: Inevitability.

You do know why those lists play Slaver? They can play them unfairly, either with their Goblin Welders or Tron lands. If they didn't have either of these, they wouldn't play Mindslaver. Landstill doesn't have either of those. There are other cards you could play sideboard or maindeck that you'd rather play to give you inevitability, while being not completely worthless in non-control matchups, such as Crucible of Worlds, more Decrees, more planeswalkers, Eternal Dragon, hell, even Haunting Echoes.


What I am suggesting is that slaver be placed in the sideboard as a true answer to the mirror match, MUC, and others.

If you resolve Slaver against MUC, you were going to win already, since:

You hand 6 lands untapped to cast it, which means most likely Back to Basics is off the table. That card is what the matchup hinges on; if it stays in play landstill is a dog, if not it has the advantage due to Decree, planeswalkers, and Ruins.
They had no permission in hand, which means they are most likely low on cards in hand, due to the high amount of permission it runs. MUC rarely runs low cards in hand in the control matchup, due to 4 FoF+ 4-6 other draw spells. Any relevant threat will put you ahead in this position.

[Benie Bederios]

What does every control deck want in the mirror/ other control matchups?

Answer: Inevitability.

Edit:

Also keep in mind that the red zone is not what dictates the Control Matchup/ its the card quality

Normally I don't react to your post because I can't read them, but your post is just empty talk...

Inevitability, What do you prefer:

On one side Mind Slaver 10 mana to use, 1 shot effect without Ruins. Might win the game on the spot or do very little. If your opponent has a Plainswalker in play and he doesn't have a second you can't do anything with it... he fires all his plowes to a single Factory, so that the others will live EOT. Or Fact or Fiction in response so you can't and uses all fetches EOT.

On the other side
Crucible of Worlds: Making landdrops is vital in the control mirror Wastelock and recurring Mishra's Factory is pretty sick too. A CC of 3 mana and a lasting effect.

Elspeth, Jace, or the Liliana
3 to 5 mana. One gives creatures for free, the second cards and the third makes your opponent discard wich is nice. they all stay in play and two of them got an almost instant winning Ultimate and the third a very good second ability.

Unless you maxed out on Plainswalkers I might look into Slaver and then I would still think, why play this over Sundering Titan. For a mana more you get a quick clock and if you play it well almost an armageddon on the other side an no damage for you. And Sundering Titan is bad already.

Benie

[Elfrago]

Do you know what I really want in a control mirror?
Anything that slowly grinds card advantage.

More Crucibles, additional Planeswalkers, Fact or Fiction, even Sensei's Diving Top or Dark Confidant. Just throw these on the board, if they stick you will eventually win, else your opponent has one less counter now.

[ultimoman]

Mindslaver seems very good in the sideboard but if people dont want that, Ajani could work or more Extirpate perhaps.

[Misplayer]

I'd play Telemin Performance, or even something like Haunting Echoes over Mindslaver in the sideboard if you're looking to crush the control mirror. 5 mana will either win you the game immediately, or put you in a very advantageous and likely winning position. Even then, it's tough to justify dedicating a sideboard slot to either of those alternatives. This Mindslaver discussion is nonsense, in my opinion.

[rockout]

I'd play Telemin Performance, or even something like Haunting Echoes over Mindslaver in the sideboard if you're looking to crush the control mirror. 5 mana will either win you the game immediately, or put you in a very advantageous and likely winning position. Even then, it's tough to justify dedicating a sideboard slot to either of those alternatives. This Mindslaver discussion is nonsense, in my opinion.

Those are very good choices brent. I've always had a soft spot for haunting echoes and have had it cast on me, not fun at all. I think both telemin performance/haunting echoes are much better than mind slaver.

[rsaunder]

I'd say performance only looks good because the BB cost of echoes is such a backbreaker in a deck playing at most 3 black sources. The power levels in a deck like this aren't even in the same ballpark. Echoes says "if I resolve this I win" whereas performance says "if I resolve this I get a random creature and mill a few cards."

To me though, none are worth running. Fact or Fiction, Crucible, Planeswalkers, DoJ, and even to some extent eternal dragon are all stronger choices that have wider uses than the "oops, I win" 1-of. Cute idea, but largely a waste of a slot imo.

[Mark Sun]

So, question here. What is one to do against combo when the opponent plays 3 successive Orim's Chant/Silences (1 FoW'ed, 1 Negate'd). Was playing a Doomsday deck last night and the dude had 3 in his hand before going off. They just kept coming :cry:

I actually searched the thread and "Doomsday" comes up three times, one post in 2008, twice in the past 3 months without elaboration. Can anyone shed some insight on what to do against this?

Last night, I briefly considered some random options in head, some of which are probably moving slightly backwards in this deck's evolution and will be scrapped in the next few posts. However, I'm considering some of the SB slots that I had which were not used last night, hindsight is 20/20.

1) Misdirection in the SB. This seems like a solid choice, tbh, messing with their Chant and flipping it to them. Not sure if it would have made a significant impact in this case.

@ rockout: if you could get my brain churning on this card, that would be golden :)

2) Runed Halo in the SB. It seems like it would be good for all intents and purposes, naming either Orim's Chant / Tendrils of Agony to allow me to use my counters to deal with the other (when I refer to the latter, I mean in terms of countering Doomsday, etc). Can be Wish --> Tutored for.

3) Ethersworn Canonist in the SB. Honestly, +3 Negate against Combo didn't help (as mentioned above). I did win a Belcher matchup (LOL?) with the same configuration, but honestly, that deck fizzles too much anyways, although I did lose g1. Props are, of course, that it can be tutored up, like Runed Halo.

4) Counterbalance. If someone wants to refresh me on why this isn't run in the SB, that would be great. I tried to search everything I just mentioned, but since it returns results on the said deck, it's hard to pinpoint discussion.


...yeah, that's about it. Thanks in advance for any insight.

[johanessen]

There are many storm combo players that uses doomsday, ad nauseam and igg-loop in the same list, one copy of each to search the best for each moment or to play against the deck they are facing. You can find them in the Ad Nauseam Tendrils thread now in DTB Section

[Ectoplasm]

Your problem wasn't the fact you got raped by doomsday, but the fact that he somehow got 3 chant effects in his hand.
The best thing to do against combo (imo) is to just sandbag counters, and personally I like having some meddling mages side that can screw around with them as well and put them on some kind of clock at least.

[rockout]

1) Misdirection in the SB. This seems like a solid choice, tbh, messing with their Chant and flipping it to them. Not sure if it would have made a significant impact in this case.

@ rockout: if you could get my brain churning on this card, that would be golden :)


The way I look at my wish side board is this: I have 1-2 flex slot.

This is what I usually run: 14 cards plus a meta slot
3x Engineered Plague
1x Shackles (This is the "4th" Plague)
2x Extirpate
1x Path to Exile
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Negate
1x Pulse of the Field
2x Relic

When I cast cunning wish, probably 70% of the time it's going for extirpate or e tutor for humility. I have yet to wish for path or negate but I'm sure that will happen eventually. I just think e tutor for humility is better than wishing for path.

The 2 "flex" slots are the 2nd extirpate and the 1 card I didn't name. I've been told the 2nd extirpate is worthless, but eh I like it. These flex slots change from tournament to tournament and can range from chant, crucible, 3rd doj, warmth, cop red, moat, lilianna, 4th negate, shining shoal (my newest tech), volcanic fallout (different color build than UWb, obviously) to 3rd relic.

I have yet to test misdirection but the way I see it is this: Why go for misdirection when your blue cards are the only thing that matters in the combo matchup g1. G1 you can just go for either pulse/negate. G2 you board out your wishes anyway because everything comes in because we have so many dead cards. Pitching blue cards to anything that isn't force seems bad to me. Granted misdirection is hilarious in the mirror when you can misdirection vindicates to protect your elspeths/other stuff. Still not really solid on it but if it works for you run it.

[rockout]

I'd say performance only looks good because the BB cost of echoes is such a backbreaker in a deck playing at most 3 black sources. The power levels in a deck like this aren't even in the same ballpark. Echoes says "if I resolve this I win" whereas performance says "if I resolve this I get a random creature and mill a few cards."

To me though, none are worth running. Fact or Fiction, Crucible, Planeswalkers, DoJ, and even to some extent eternal dragon are all stronger choices that have wider uses than the "oops, I win" 1-of. Cute idea, but largely a waste of a slot imo.

Sorry for double post: We were talking about Telemin's Performance in the control mirror. LS v LS. The only creature people run are clique/e dragon and many people don't run those anymore. Even if you can only mill half their library that is going to put you in an extremely good position for the rest of the game. Hmm, its going to atleast deserve some testing.

[Ectoplasm]

Isn't it kind of narrow to sideboard just for landstill mirrors? I mean, at least haunting echoes hits rock, countertop etc just as hard.

[Mark Sun]

The way I look at my wish side board is this: I have 1-2 flex slot.

This is what I usually run: 14 cards plus a meta slot
3x Engineered Plague
1x Shackles (This is the "4th" Plague)
2x Extirpate
1x Path to Exile
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Negate
1x Pulse of the Field
2x Relic

When I cast cunning wish, probably 70% of the time it's going for extirpate or e tutor for humility. I have yet to wish for path or negate but I'm sure that will happen eventually. I just think e tutor for humility is better than wishing for path.

The 2 "flex" slots are the 2nd extirpate and the 1 card I didn't name. I've been told the 2nd extirpate is worthless, but eh I like it. These flex slots change from tournament to tournament and can range from chant, crucible, 3rd doj, warmth, cop red, moat, lilianna, 4th negate, shining shoal (my newest tech), volcanic fallout (different color build than UWb, obviously) to 3rd relic.

I have yet to test misdirection but the way I see it is this: Why go for misdirection when your blue cards are the only thing that matters in the combo matchup g1. G1 you can just go for either pulse/negate. G2 you board out your wishes anyway because everything comes in because we have so many dead cards. Pitching blue cards to anything that isn't force seems bad to me. Granted misdirection is hilarious in the mirror when you can misdirection vindicates to protect your elspeths/other stuff. Still not really solid on it but if it works for you run it.

Thanks for the prompt response :smile:

My SB is pretty close to yours, actually. I always put in Crucible in your Shackles spot but I didn't need it last night (again, hindsight 20/20). I run 3 Paths so I can side those in against Aggro and the such. And no, I've never wished for Path or Negate either. Weird.

My logic really with Misdirection is that it's an emergency "oh shit" button that can be played with an alternative mana cost, ie, not tapping your lands. I'm not sold on it because I haven't been testing it, but there were times last night where I could have bought time /// won if I could have Misdirected rather than sandbag counters.

Time to MWS with some friends, I guess.


And @ Ectoplasm: Yeah, MM is definitely a choice, but of course I've been busy trading the ones I get as trade stock for other stuff. You think Runed Halo would be better? Again, Enchantments can be tutored up with ET (as well as the Canonsit), so it seems appealing.

[Ectoplasm]

I like runed halo but the thing about MM's is that they can stop alot of other decks as well :) Same with Canonist, they rape stormcombo but do pretty much nothing against other decks (except stupid red burn perhaps)
IMO run Halo only if you need more than 4 meddling mages.

[FoolofaTook]

Runed Halo is a great silver bullet as a 1-of if you have ways to go and find it quickly. It's ok as a topdeck but really not as valuable. The thing about Runed Halo that is kind of unique is that it can be deployed proactively before the threat or reactively after it has landed in the case of a permanent.

I've won games with Runed Halo naming Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose and obviously it's a great out against Progenitus, since you cannot be dealt damage by him once named and since his Pro-everything means nothing because Runed Halo does not target him.

[mossivo1986]

Good ant players kick the shit out of stupid land still players who think 4 pieces of aggresive disruption is going to do the trick. Your decks arn't made to handle combo/ or fight it; so just sacrifice the rare match up that it is and move on.

-Moss

[FoolofaTook]

Runed Halo, BTW, is very good early game disruption against ANT but it quickly loses value later on - since they're going to bounce it before they go off after resolving Ad Nauseum. It's excellent naming Duress early on though, since they become much more nervous about trying to resolve Ad Nauseum without a peeky first.

[mossivo1986]

Except for the damn deck runs orim's chant, mystical tutor, and duress, so probobly not.

[FoolofaTook]

Except for the damn deck runs orim's chant, mystical tutor, and duress, so probobly not.

It does work early on, to give you maybe a 4 turn window after you land it on turn 2. Then it's done and you need to have something else going.

Orim's Chant isn't as devastating as Duress. You counter chant and they still have to wonder what is in your hand. You counter Duress and then they chant and then you're screwed because odds on having 3 counters are so low they'll go off without thinking about it twice.

What Runed Halo does for you early is cut off Duress completely. It's like having a constant counter in the hand fighting over a few turns. Then it begins to lose effectiveness as they sculpt their hand in response to it and so you need to find something else.

[GGoober]

I've been recently considering 3 Extirpates in the SB again. The only reason being that Extirpate wins the control mirror very well. You can rip off their win-conditions/counterspells. It also deals with a matchup that's not favorable, being Ichorid. One single Extirpate is all you need to timewalk Ichorid for many turns (StP their creaturebase) and extirpate bridges.

Extirpate might give you a little edge over the combo matchup as it screws up their Mtutor and against multiple chants, you can extirpate them away if they want to go off with multiple chant protection. The only reason why I brought this up again is because I've been playing 3 Extirpates in my BUG Trinket Painter list, and it's been good. For the aggro matchups, you don't really need to use them so that isn't a problem. It should help the control mirror and combo decks with Chant.

[Hitman82]

I don't know why Landstill players are trying to find silver bullets in the mirror.

1) You would have to board at least two to reliably get it during the mid-game where you want to cast such a spell.
2) Every silver bullet mentioned is terribly inefficient. Against a deck known for its countermagic, you'll be hard-pressed to resolve said threat, especially post-board.

The way to beat a control deck is relatively simple. You either get better mana than your opponent or you gain card advantage beyond what your opponent is getting. Control decks are too good at controlling the board and the stack once they hit four mana. You need cards that gain incremental advantages and just grind your opponent down. Crucible is probably the best single card against the mirror or Jace Beleren. A third Decree is also very strong in the mirror but leaves you open to your opponent catching up on card advantage while you're improving your board state.

Secondly, against combo decks my boarding plan of 3 Ethersworn Canonists and 2 Negates has been crushing combo. Ethersworn Canonist is amazing against combo because it either slows the game down to a point where you've accumulated enough mana to cast multiple counterspells a turn or bottlenecks the combo player's resources because they had to use them to get rid of the Canonist.

My sideboard looks like this:

1 Extirpate
1 Jace Beleren
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Ethersworn Canonist

My mainboard looks like this:

3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Crucible/Vedalken Shackles

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

I like Joel's list but it doesn't fix the problem I've been experiencing lately. I have no problem stopping my opponent's from killing me but I can't reliably get a threat online when my window's open. I added a third Decree and I'm hoping that's enough.

[gustha]

I've been recently considering 3 Extirpates in the SB again. The only reason being that Extirpate wins the control mirror very well. You can rip off their win-conditions/counterspells. It also deals with a matchup that's not favorable, being Ichorid. One single Extirpate is all you need to timewalk Ichorid for many turns (StP their creaturebase) and extirpate bridges.

Extirpate might give you a little edge over the combo matchup as it screws up their Mtutor and against multiple chants, you can extirpate them away if they want to go off with multiple chant protection. The only reason why I brought this up again is because I've been playing 3 Extirpates in my BUG Trinket Painter list, and it's been good. For the aggro matchups, you don't really need to use them so that isn't a problem. It should help the control mirror and combo decks with Chant.

I've been reconsidering 3 extirpates too, due to the meta here shifting towards controllish again. Here's what I'm testing atm:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UG] Plains
1 [UG] Swamp
2 [UG] Island

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [A] Counterspell
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

A few points:

-I admit I hated 3 elspeth, but all of my landstill playing friends suggested me to give the 3rd a try. They were right, and it's amazing. First, we want to see it always and early: 2 is not enough for this sake. Second: the 3rd copy allows not only less investment to keep her alive while she's on the board, but also less counter investment to put it on the field. Third: not dead vs any MU. Fourth: better impact in the mirror than doj (they just put EE@0 and doj's gone), due to our superiority having vindicate + extirpate to get rid of our opponent's elspeth without wasting a copy of ours (and EE to get rid of doj, and 5-7 swords to get rid of mishra's). It pushes the opponent better than doj. Five: less dead that doj in most MU's. (Though, incidentally, I love doj). [qoute]A third Decree is also very strong in the mirror but leaves you open to your opponent catching up on card advantage while you're improving your board state.[/quote]A 3rd Elspeth is better.

-less artifact-centered build, so out etutor from the sb for a free space (no humility or such to tutor for g1, no relevant stuff to take immediately g2). Better replaced with an extirpate.

-more solid sb: shackles is amazing as plague#4/path#3, crucible for the mirror, loam, merfolks, etc. (better than a singleton jace), 2 relic to pair with extirpate, 3 extirpate to pair often with negate.

-I always wonder if 2 extirpate may better be 2 orim's chant...

[FoolofaTook]

-I always wonder if 2 extirpate may better be 2 orim's chant...

In the appropriate matchups Orim's Chant buys you a turn, Extirpate often wins the game. I just don't see a real comparison between the two. If there was a game-winning combo to protect with chant it would raise the value some but when I had a singleton chant in the sideboard for CWish I almost never went to get it and when I did go for it I lost sometimes anyway. If the opponent plays poorly then chant can win also, as in if they wait until the last second deep in the stack to pop theirs then you can go get yours and essentially have twisted them for most of their hand and storm count. But that kind of combo player you will roll over anyway, chant or no.

[GGoober]

@hitman82: I'm not saying that we need to consider the mirror like it's crucial, but I think that of all the suggestions raised against the mirror (Mindslaver, etc), those are cards that don't do much in the other troublesome matchups and takes awhile to implememt.

The control matchup should be won with good decisions on what to counter, and card advantage. If you pack 2 FoF and they don't, if you pack 2-3 Decrees and they don't, you already won. If they do pack these, then you need to know how to play against them and when to resolve yours. Extirpate is really handy because it can single-handedly cut them off 4 FOWs or 3 EEs, 2 Elspeths, giving the mirror an edge.

My main reason for exploring it again, like I said in my BUG Trinket Painter build is that it crushes Dredge. Extirpate gives you a huge edge against:

- Ichorid
- Aggro Loam (much winnable now)
- combo (better chances now, especially the Chant builds)
- mirror

Other less relevant decks:
- 43 Lands

It's still situational card, but I might even see it relevant against Merfolks if you get to FOW their vial and extirpate that away or their LoAs.

I thought about Chant in the Wishboard and it's horrible as what FoolofaTook said. I'd rather have a Stifle to stifle a lethal Tendrils than wait for them to build up for a kill again. But Stifle/Chant are both super dead if they resolve chant against you.

I used to play 2 Extirpates in the SB, and sided both in against less conventional matches e.g. Dreadstill. My philosophy is that if i can nullify their Dreadnoughts entirely, then I'm dealing with a crappy deck that plays 4 Goyfs, which are no matches against my 15 removal MD. The power of Extirpate is that in the right matchup, it really shines as a resource stifler, and shores the matchup in your favor as you no longer have to deal with that particular card anymore. Being uncounterable is just huge and you catch your opponents off guard e.g. when they're cashing SDT to draw a card etc

[Tinefol]

Been playing the Walkerstill lately and it's being quite successful.

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Plateau
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [TE] Counterspell
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [FNM] Fire/Ice
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

A few notes: Ajani is MVP, both against control and aggro. His ultimate gives the deck the much needed inevitability (and I've used it), and unlike Elspeth/Disk combo is just one card, far less vulnerable than Disk. Against aggro, you either "tap" a threat continiously, making them overextend or burn it down, gaining you much needed life. Not to mention it greatly speeds up your clock combined with Elspeth. 7-9 damage a turn? Easy.

If your walker trio (well just 2 out of the 3 is enough, usually) hits the board and sticks there - you just overwhelm your opponent with massive card advantage. Much like recursion decks.

Added the Tops back. Too good, too unfair with Jace, frees you from endless land topdecks, finding answers all the way through. You know what it does.

F/I - very versatile. It comboes with Ajani well, either with tap - no untap or burn something. Tombstalkers die to 5 damage. Goyfs often do. Sometimes its kickass against multiples of small stuff, like Birds, mana elfs, confidants etc. Or that Dryad Arbor. You save your swords for goyfs. Easily replaced or complimented by Paths from S/B if you need more removal for fatties. Unfair with Humility.

Added Wastelands back. You're not playing LD, if your opponent isn't screwed, don't just "waste" them. They are here for manlands (read mutavault) and sideboard Crucible.

[mossivo1986]

Your deck is breaking all the "Rules" Ultimate Walker set out to beat. Namely a great reduction of 2cc making yourself resiliant to spell snare.

Also Ajani's inevitability isn't better then elspeth/disks. It should be rather obvious the it's infinately easier to protect elspeth then ajani especially with the helix cost of it.

[Tinefol]

Spell snare? Whatever. Never was the card this deck fears much. I'm not running Ancestral Visions, no way.
Ajani is not alone there to protect itself though, as it has friends. Disk is much more vulnerable before Elspeth's ultimate hits. I don't like it mainly because it folds to the certain uncounterable green spell, which everybody seems to sideboard. Not only that, but to crap like Oblivion Ring. Or any kind of bounce. Or doesn't save you from alpha strike.Yeah, cool with Elspeth's ultimate, not more than that. Ajani doesn't need Elspeth to be worthwile.

[mossivo1986]

Just an FYI, go read the Ultimate Walker Primer.

Also Test Disk please.

[Tinefol]

Just FYI: don't imply I didn't read or test, because I did. I already mentioned why I don't like Disk - this comes from testing, not out of my head.

You don't have a monopoly of speaking the 'truth' there. Also you don't have a monopoly of running the best list in entire universe.

[Romanus]

Come post on the Ultimate Walker thread then if you have a different build. We have quite a few players versed in landstill trying it out, and can always use one more to brainstorm with.

Plus posting odd builds here gives Moss an ulcer :cool:

[jimirynk]

Smelski just 2-1 merfolk by using preacher in his build.
He one game 2 on a mull to 5 with that card.

[gustha]

This thread is becoming full of flame, bad courtesy and stupid mono-line posts than good strategy and friendly advices and this, considering the fact we're talking 'bout one of the best legacy decks, sincerely disgusts me.

BTW, Tinefol, i'd cut the wraths for 1 humility 1 path, and consider the switch f/i -> lightning elix

Something like this:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Plateau
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Volcanic Island

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TE] Counterspell (better)
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [FNM] Fire/Ice (possible switcgh for helix, much more good vs aggro)
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [CFX] Path to Exile (much better than wrath ihmo, though wrath can have a point in this deck)
1 [TE] Humility (as dead as wrath in the mirror, but we save one slot for path)
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds (those 3 slots combined are the key to smash mirror matches)
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast (rockout says they beat the format: true)
SB: 2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout (last-minute addiction, good vs tribal)
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate (much more solid than beb)
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles (another removal)

PS: PM me with your considerations, this thing attracts me

[Ectoplasm]

Smelski just 2-1 merfolk by using preacher in his build.
He one game 2 on a mull to 5 with that card.

I have to say Preacher has been working out great on MWS and I'm looking forward to bringing 3 of them to Antwerpen next week and try them out in some real games :D

[Mijorre]

I am tempted as well, but I'll probably just go for more removal. That makes the mirror more interesting when we get paired round 1 ^_^