[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Omega]

Just curious : By using RED in landstill, aren't we making ourselves vulnerable to BEB (in the Merfolk MU)? Would a mix of WOG and Firesprout be a better idea?

RED/PYRO seem the nuts against blue...

Robert

[Hanni]

I can see the power of Red Elemental Blast, but I don't see the need for Firespout. If your manabase is stable enough, getting to enough lands to cast WoG, even through taxing effects like Daze and Cursecatcher, shouldn't be a problem. Postboard, with 8 1cc spot removal effects (StP/PtE), I don't see why people are finding themselves needing Firespout for aggro, when Wrath of God is a better overall sweeper. Oh well.

[konsultant]

@ Citrus God: Thanks for filling in alot of responses for me, unfortunatly it is pretty rare that I have time to get on and post these days. Obviously we have talked some and after going over some of my strategies with you, you have a pretty good idea of what I am doing and why. I think you covered all of the questions posed, thanks. If anybody had something else just pm it to me and i'll get back to you when I get a chance.

I was incredaibly happy with the list from last week. Alot of stuff looks random but it is extensively tested, probably about 500 games against the top 15 decks over the last month and every match up is in Landstill's favor except Ichorid. That's primarily because of the difficulty in winning game one and if they get a solid hand and I don't it can be hard to take game 2 and game 3. Stuff like the 1 Crucible and 4th Wrath and Counter in the SB look random but they are all part of thouroughly developed SB strategies that cover every deck I'd expect to see and the random shit that's out there.

My Abbreviated and much delayed tournament report:

Round one vs Burn.
This was a deck of 17-land, 4 Grim Lavamncer and 33 Bolt effects and 8 Volcanic fallout effects. I took game one at 1-life but the only out they had would have been a third volcanic fallout due to my double counter in hand at the end of the game. Bring in more counter's and open hand double standstill, good game.

Round 2 vs Merfolk.
Lose game one, sb heavy for the Merfolk plan and blow him out game 2 and 3.

Round 3 VS Ultimate Walker {the guy that ended up winning the event}
Lose 0-2. Not knowing his list at the time I dind't realize how fortunate he was with the cards he drew against but he nuetered 1 Fof and 3 Standstills during the course the first ten turns of game one and had double ancestral visions. I end up losing to Crucible+Waste with Academy Ruins. Game 2 he go's for an early Ajani Vengeant and wins the counter war due to Reb, I don't find a vindicate in time and he keeps tapping down my factory. After seeing his list I don't know if it would turn out the same if we played more games but he crushed me in those two games.

Round 4 vs Merfolk.
Win 2-0, he is playing U/W with STP and I take game 1 and crush him game 2.

Round 5 vs Mirror.
I win 2-0.

Round 6 Draw.

Top 8 vs U/w Merfolk again, same guy.
lose 0-2

Game one he gets Triple Mutavault, Triple Fow, Double Waste and a Stifle. I die to Mutavault although I did manage to kill two of them I couldn't resolve an answer for the third in time.

Game 2 I keep a semi risky hand. My only relevent colered mana is a tundra but I have a factory and the swamp plus i have brainstorm and preacher and plague. I keep, don't hit any more lands and end up playing the tundra turn 3, he has the waste and so i brainstorm but the only land i hit is another factory with no shuffle effects. i effectively time stretch him for the loss.

The list did what I wanted it to, Merfolk will never be an auto win with our mana base and the ultimate walker match up is like playing against UWr landstill but worse. Snare has no targets and ee is practicaly worthless. The deck effectively plays around the meta like it was designed to do.

[RogueMTG]

Anyone have thoughts on trying to beat that Ultimate Walker deck?

I played it twice last weekend, only beat it once (barely) in a grueling 47 minute game one, whats good here?

[Citrus-God]

Anyone have thoughts on trying to beat that Ultimate Walker deck?

I played it twice last weekend, only beat it once (barely) in a grueling 47 minute game one, whats good here?

Red Elemental Blast. :)

Actually, it's slow as balls, but it can't be countered. I'm saying Aeon Chronicler would be decent in this match up. Crucible of Worlds helps too, but you have to resolve it.

[ultimoman]

Red Elemental Blast. :)

Actually, it's slow as balls, but it can't be countered. I'm saying Aeon Chronicler would be decent in this match up. Crucible of Worlds helps too, but you have to resolve it.

Indeed. Spell Pierce is also an option and Planar Cleansing (although I don't think anyone uses that and I probably wouldn't want it in the sb).

[mossivo1986]

telemins performsnce

[konsultant]

Duress or Thoughtsieze would be huge against Ultimate Walker.

[rsaunder]

Duress or Thoughtsieze would be huge against Ultimate Walker.

Combo and really any control, too. Is this an idea worth expanding on?

[konsultant]

Combo and really any control, too. Is this an idea worth expanding on?

Ive run them before, they really only shine against control but they are decent against combo.

[Hanni]

all im going to say about hanni is the dude is over in every other thread as well trying to mix decks around. check out his white splash thresh list which features such heavy hitters as elspeth and w.o.g.


Totally missed this. I feel obligated to reply.

What's wrong with innovation? Isn't that how we get new and improved decks constantly? Have you tried the CounterTop deck I posted to know whether it's any good or not? Rhetorical questions, they don't need answered.

[Citrus-God]

Duress or Thoughtsieze would be huge against Ultimate Walker.

I would say so too, but REB can counter Ancestral Visions... then again, taking out their bombs might be a better play here.

[Hanni]

I would say so too, but REB can counter Ancestral Visions... then again, taking out their bombs might be a better play here.

Or just abuse Counterbalance, since you have similar curves...

[Citrus-God]

Or just abuse Counterbalance, since you have similar curves...

They have REBs to fight over Counterbalance against us. And they have EEs, Spell Snares, FoWs, EEs and such.

[Hanni]

They have REBs to fight over Counterbalance against us. And they have EEs, Spell Snares, FoWs, EEs and such.

I'm guessing EE is really important, given the double emphasis?

REB is definitely a strong tool. It gives them a huge advantage.

However, I personally run 4 BEB's. So honestly, it's fight fire with fire.

Everything else in [my] deck gives me a superior control matchup. I'll go into this in detail with you if you want to PM me or hit me up on messenger.

EDIT: You didn't reply fast enough, so I'm off to the bar.

I know BEB is dead against them, but it answers Ajani and their REB's, which is a better replacement for WoG's than anything else. Oblivion Rings aren't bad to bring in either, since they handle Planeswalker's, but seriously... Counterbalance is a beating once it resolves. EE is their only good answer, for which I do run 4 Counterspells... if they get a Ruins lock going, sure, but I also have a stronger Standstill presence vs them because I run Decree. I'm not saying it's a great matchup, but honestly, how often do you really expect to run into that matchup...?

[Citrus-God]

I'm guessing EE is really important, given the double emphasis?

It's painful man. EE is huge against the format.


REB is definitely a strong tool. It gives them a huge advantage.

However, I personally run 4 BEB's. So honestly, it's fight fire with fire.

But here's the problem, BEB only protects your threats, doesn't stop your opponent's threats.

[mossivo1986]

(Hanni)
I'm not going to go into great detail about white splash thresh. but its quite common knowledge that the deck sacrifices overall reach to play the best (most efficient) spells in the format. by doing so it doesn't need to run reset buttons which become (win-more) and are also dead against virtually any kind of control (including aggro control). To quickly respond it's not innovation. Let me ask u. Do YOU really think the better thresh pilots of the world didn't test w.o.g. or elspeth, initially and make a judgement call based on said cards abilities to win games?

and it's quite funny that u have this middle ground of efficiency in landstill ala cb in the maindeck. its like u have a middle ground between thresh and landstill but u cant find it.

also beb is amazing against ajani vengeant wastelock forbid.dec it helps stop the initial plainswalker and honestly its the visions and wastelock that kill u. not anything else. but bring in cb and they have forbid.force.2ee.and maybe 3 blast to deal with it. personally i think somebody must be joking arpund here because i dont buy how ee is as strong for them as it is for u with said reach plus wish

[Hanni]

They were rhetorical questions, mossivo. I'm not going to get into a discussion about Thresh in the Landstill thread, and I'm not going to waste my time explaining something to you that you're too hardheaded to understand. Continue to make funny jokes all you want. I'll worry about your opinions after you actually test the ideas, otherwise, it's a waste of my time to respond to you.

[Ectoplasm]

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, but why don't you post some results instead? I don't always agree with the choices Mossivo makes, but at least he's got results to back them up.

Maybe you have them too, I don't know. But right now it's just theorycraft vs actual results (mossivo, gustha and let's not forget konsultant) and I'm sorry but I have to say I'd rather play the decks/use the choices that get the results.

Please don't see this as an attack on your person.

[rsaunder]

Hanni hasn't been able to make many tournaments due to work/location/whatever. He's said so a million times, but I agree. The ideas are cool and innovative but to get people to listen, well, money talks :wink:

Like who here would discount Geoff? Hanni, you must agree you're a lot easier to write off, due to lack of results and that's something you'll have to make up for somehow. Not saying your ideas are bad/not worth trying, but it's a rough sell without results.

[mossivo1986]

+2 On results argument. Nuff' Said.

[gustha]

Easy men, easy...

As for the results argument, well money talks, ofc. But as I mean it, actually playing a deck doesn't mean copying what one or more skilled player plays because "well, there are results, so if I put this and this and this together, well, this is unbeatable etc.". Remember that it's not the sword that wins a fight, but the arm that wields it. Actually playing a deck means also to be curious to find out new experiences, versions variants, etc. If you want to criticize whoever's version, put together the cards and test it against diverisifed fields. So yes, tournament resuls matter. But someone please will tell me when this variant will get to have relevant tournament results if there is only one player that plays it? You see it's a vicious circle.
[It's true that sometimes it seems hanni is claiming too strongly things about his list only he knows (being the only who actually tested it). I'll beg moderation on both sides.]

Don't want/have the courage to test it? Fine. But if the only reason is that this newborn version has not get relevant tournament results, it's simply silly. Mossivo don't want test it because he doesn't basically want to get rid of snares and explosives, which are two of the most powerful spells in landstill as I see it: hanni's version is simply totally out of his mental schemes. That's fine. But that doesn't logically mean the deck is crap. So Ectoplasm and the rest, if you want to test it, build the deck and have some games with your friends, don't wait for results, make your own!

(I'm saying this only for moderation's sake. I don't owe nothing to hanni nor he is my best friend.)

[DragoFireheart]

How does everyone feel about the spell Meditate? (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=9665).

Does it see any play? Or is it too weak to give up a turn to gain cards?

[whiteshepherdman]

i dont think we can give up a turn, it defeats the purpose of wrath of god, vindicates, standstill etc. You draw standstill and give up a turn so they build board position and now you can't play standstill anymore. Same with wrath in which timing is important because you want to play that as soon as they commit enough creatures to give you card advantage. If you give them an extra turn you can't clear the board before all those creatures get in some damage which is bad if it drops you down to like 5. for 4 mana you get fact or fiction. For 2 you get standstill which is much more synergistic to this deck than meditate. Instant speed brainstorm and card filtering with sensei's top should be more than enough draw. I haven't seen anyone playing meditate in landstill yet. Personally if i wanted another draw 3 i'd just play ancestral vision.

[Ectoplasm]

Went a modest 3-3 today in an 48-man, Beating zoo, Rock and some goblin/sligh homebrew, losing to faeries and twice to Ichorid. Some random thoughts:

Ajani Goldmane straightup won the game every time he touched the board
It's possible to beat Ichorid without GY hate
Changing your sideboard at the last minute, removing GY hate to pack combo hatebears isn't a good idea (met 2 of the grand total of 3 ichorid players in the room, and 0 of the approx. 44 ANT players)

Props:
Ajani

Slops:
The Dutch metagame for being everywhere

If there's interest (which I doubt) I'll post some more details but for now I'm gonna go sleep.

[Mark Sun]

Report from the Meandeck Open in Columbus, OH. I won't waste time with making a thread in the Reports forum. Not the greatest of days, going 2-2-1 and ID'ing with a teammate. Let me just say, I definitely misread a LOT pre-tournament, and definitely paid for it. Will explain SB choices here in a moment.

List ran:



// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [GUR] Plains
2 [GUR] Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [GUR] Swamp
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [R] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ST] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [DK] Preacher
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile


Anyhow, I was expecting a heavy aggro meta for this, and from what I did see, definitely reflected it. Anyhow, I figured the 'pates were good for the Combo matchup + expected newfound Entomb decks, Perish was great for NO-CB and maybe even Zoo in general. Probably should have just did the +1 Path, +1 Negate like a normal SB.

Misplays were definitely really, really costly, and with my luck only at crucial times. Probably could be sitting on at least 3-1-1 instead of 2-2-1 going into the last round to give me a shot at T8. Anyhow, without further ado, I'll try to be brief, but there's quite a bit, and it gives me a chance to whine a little :laugh: . A lot of eye rolling / "fml" from myself, as I became a little more angry at my metagame call each game.

Round 1: Richard Linscott with Blue Stax
I keep a hand with 2 blue fetches, a Factory, FoF, and CS. I lay a fetch and pass. He opens on the draw with City of Traitors and Chalice @1. Whoa. Didn't see that one. I'm reading Stax/Stompy variant obviously, but there's no color added. I wait it out. Feel a little more calm. His next play is a Seat of the Synod, so I read Tezzeret Stax. I draw into a Wasteland, kill the Seat, and pass the turn. He lays an Island and doesn't play anything. I build up my land count to 4, never seeing anything threatening because he *can't* play anything. I then FoF at the end of his turn, bluffing the "omg-I-want-EE" look while holding on to one. Thanks for the draw-4. I blow up Chalice, Brainstorm a bit, and beat face with Factory for the win.

Siding: +2 Negate, +3 Extirpate, +1 Crucible, +1 Crypt. Oddly enough, no notes on what I took out, although I'm assuming some of the creature removal cards.

Game 2 is a little scary, since I don't see a Factory when he's beating me with one. I do hear, however, that DoJ soldier tokens block Factory really well, so even if he has me agitated with Thorn of Amethyst, I cycle it for enough to take down a Factory. I then answer on consecutive turns Smokestack (CS), Crucible (NEG), and Tezzeret (FoW), while the soldier tokens get there. He reveals to me after the game (through my puzzlement) that he has no Metalworker to help drop things.

2-0 games, 1-0 matches.


Round 2: Joe Ross with LED-Ichorid.
This is definitely the match where I wanted to punt my deck across the room. Not a whole ton of notes for this one, but I punted a post-sided g2 (lost g1 to a stripped hand with 2-3 Cabal Therapy and a very large GGT) with a really crappy draw. Game one was a blowout, I have here that I swords a threshold'ed Putrid Imp (ugh...).

Siding: +3 Extirpate, +3 Engineered Plague, +1 Path, +1 Crypt (Yikes!), -3 Standstill, -2 Spell Snare, -3 Fact or Fiction.

I start off pretty good, Extirpating a Stinkweed Imp after he has no lands (Ichorid food + Dredging). Factories get him to 5, and he starts to dredge into real stuff. At this point, I've drawn no :w: sources to take care of anything, and when I finally get a Wasteland to assassinate my own Factory and take out his bridges, there's already 7 Zombies out, and it's a lost cause. Was holding a Tolaria West for most of the game with no second :u: source too to get Crypt / EE. My hand consisted of DoJ, StP, StP, PtE, and Vindicate. Thanks, luck.

2-2 games, 1-1 matches


Round 3: Bob Holland (JEDI KNIGHT from The Source, part of Team Akron)
Bob's a really chill guy, and we tend to have fun games anyways, as we seem to always get paired up when my team and I go to Wadsworth. I had thought he was playing B/U Reanimator, but instead he's doing the traditional BGW Trix deck that he ran (Mesmeric Field/Tidehollow/Bob/Goyf control-ish stuff). Game one I mulled to 6, but around the time where I started to gain card advantage, Bob scooped with 4 lands in hand, and me with 2 active Factories.

Siding: +3 Extirpate (right call? Eh), +1 Path, -3 Standstill, -1 Fact or Fiction. Game two, an early Hymn to Tourach takes a FoW and WoG (kinda my fault for siding out 4 blue's), and although I'm able to stabilize, he plays Choke (damn tertiary :g:), and I didn't see it coming. We scoop and go to game three while he beats my face in with a Jitte'ed Tidehollow Sculler.

Game three starts off about the same as the second game, except I am able to stabilize through Choke with a Tolaria West (LOL :laugh:). I then am able to Extirpate his 'Goyfs. Vindicate his one of his 2 Tombstalkers, and he's waiting, waiting, waiting... and so am I. Neither of us draw threats, and we end up having to draw. I'm cool with that.

3-3-1 games, 1-1-1 matches


Round 4: Stephen Menendian (Smmenen on The Source) playing 3c CB-Thresh (with tricks)
So, everyone pretty much knows Stephen, as he is, after all, the celebrity host of our tournament here. I knew he played 3c CB-Thresh from the Meandeck in August, but that's about it. Whatever, right? What's the worst that can happen?

I think Stephen actually took down more notes than I did regarding this matchup. I was kind of on tilt for the entire matchup, kinda awkward when you know the dude across from you by reputation. Game one starts off with playing fetches and starting at each other, until he wants to resolve a Bob and I can't let it hit the table. Force meets Force, but I send Bob farming the next turn. Indeed, still UGb Thresh. We trade land drops, cantrips, and whatnot for a couple of turns, and Stephen taps for 2 and makes... a Vampire Hexmage. Whoa, fuck. :eek: Luckily, no Dark Depths on the table, and I fight to make an EE @ 2 stick on the board. Realizing that everything in his deck is 2cc, I felt good about upping the count to 3 (and Tolaria West to tutor for it) in the MD. I get Clique'ed twice in this game, both of which made me really miss having them in the original LS build, but the first puts away a Force of Will, which draws into a WoG. I take a Goyf + Vendilion Clique with it the following turn. When I finally rip an Academy Ruins to start recurring EE @ 2 with StP backup, Stephen Cliques me the second time (after recursion + draw step), and knowing 4 of the 5 cards in my hand, didn't see the FoW that I drew the previous turn. Factory pressure and a Standstill is enough for him to scoop to game two.

Siding: +3 Extirpate, +1 PtE, -3 Fact or Fiction, -1 Decree of Justice.

I have to mull to 5 on this game, as I do not see fetches or decent mana sources in my first two hands. And I'm on the play. Ugly. LotV starts off in play on Menendian's side, and I'm kind of giving a puzzling look. Oh yeah, I forgot about that whole recursion thing last game. We play fetches and stare at each other again, and he plays Bob. I try to Snare it. No dice. He plays a second Bob the turn after, and all of the sudden, I'm feeling really nervous. Bobs net him 4 cards (I think, notes are a little scribbly at this point). Before they're taken out by an EE @ 2. I have a Wasteland sitting on my side, and eventually I draw into 2 Extirpates and a Force in my hand. Counterbalance/Top is eventually assembled on his side, but I'm able to play another EE @ 2 (costing 3), to take it out. Goyf beats me down to 5 life, but with a DoJ, I'm able to stall with soldier chump blockers while I find a Vindicate for it. I decide to use Extirpate on the Goyf while he still has two left. Force of Will gets 'pated within the next few turns, and for the rest of the game, I trade Counterspells and spot removal for his threats. I do believe soldiers + Elspeth get there after a Factory gets Grip'ed.

5-3 games, 2-1-1 matches


Round 5: Stephen Hara with Merfolk
Stephen's on my team, and has an inside joke with me when I played Dredge for three whole weeks. I know this is a terrible matchup, so I guess I won't go into the specifics. All I will say about this match is, getting a tapped Mutavault instead of the 7/7 Wake Thrasher coming in for lethal with Preacher is an face palming way to die. This is one matchup that I didn't test well before this tournament, but hope to improve on. God, that was ugly.

6-5 games, 2-2-1 matches


Round 6: Harrison Laws with Enchantress
Harrison's my buddy and fellow Culture Crew branch of our team, and we do an ID for the last round, but decide to play it out. I get crushed, and realize that Disk+Elspeth > Enchantress, which I am running only one of the said cards in 1x. What a beating, and makes me miss the original list.


So I end the night 2-2-2. Things I like about this list: more Swords effects are definitely great, but I didn't see Zoo or more aggro based decks today to reap the benefits of more maindeck spot removal and/or cheaper Countermagic (in the form of Spell Snare). I also didn't get to play this against TES and try the Extirpates, but they were okay when I sided them in. Taking a Goyf as an uncounterable 4(or 3/2)-for-1 sometimes is okay when you're stabilizing, but it's gimmicky. No Disk, and seeing Elspeth only a few times in the entire tournament was something that I was not accustomed to. I like the inevitability and reset-button nature with Disk and what it brings to this list.


Anyhow,

Props:
Decent start at 2-1-1 with hopes for sniffing T8
Meeting Joel, mossivo1986 (needs no introduction here!) at the tournament, but didn't get to visit with him for long.
Vindicate!
Recurring EE with Academy Ruins.
Seeing Team Akron, always good times when they come down
Going to BD's after the tournament to hang out

Slops:
Making terrible calls on the metagame (didn't expect Dredge, didn't see Entomb-based decks, didn't run into Zoo once, wasted slots on Perish in SB).
Finishing the day 0-1-1
Shitty draws against Dredge
Tapped Mutavaults
Not having Disk
Skipping a lot of homework this weekend to test/play in this tournament


Yeah, I think that about covers it.

[jeanbathez]

I made top 8 of a 42 man event yesterday with the new list I have been working on. This list should be in the top 8 lists thread. Sorry I don't quite know how to link to another page but if somebody that does know how would do it that would be cool.

@all : I'am sorry, but i can't find that list/event can please somebody help me, that would be nice, thank you !

[Reagens]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14720&page=5

@Morbid

Why perish?
Even when you expect a lot of green you already have 3 WoG, 4 plow, 1pte,...


I also think that running 3 explosives + Tolaria West is too much.

As a final note I think that you boarded in extirpate way too many times. I know it is tempting to do but you have to board it very carefully.

Personally I would board it against:

- every deck with a loam engine
- combo
- ichorid

[Mark Sun]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14720&page=5

@Morbid

Why perish?
Even when you expect a lot of green you already have 3 WoG, 4 plow, 1pte,...


I also think that running 3 explosives + Tolaria West is too much.

As a final note I think that you boarded in extirpate way too many times. I know it is tempting to do but you have to board it very carefully.

Personally I would board it against:

- every deck with a loam engine
- combo
- ichorid

Yeah, I agree. I think the main problem was I overthought this tournament to begin with (old list + old SB would have been fine, no?). Tolaria West was included in the mana base so I could cut it to 1 Crypt (just in case... which led to me running into one of the two people playing Dredge), and was fine, as it did its job when I needed EE. About the 'pates, I tried to play way more aggressively than my usual playstyle, hoping that I could apply enough pressure with Factory/DoJ early on, while removing their more important threats.

Obviously, from results, that didn't happen. One last note about the Perishes in the SB, my pre-tournament reads were way off to begin with, but the goal was to try and have an earlier sweeper to reset the board with Daze mana backup.

[ultimoman]

I also think that running 3 explosives + Tolaria West is too much.

That brings up an interesting point that I've been wondering myself as well. If you have Tolaria West, do you still need 3 E.E. like most lists or can you cut it down to 2?
I think perhaps 3 is still likely the proper amount to use, because I find that I usually want it early and with 2 and Tolaria West, I may have to wait until at least turn 3 to get it.
I've been testing West again and was wondering if I should take out the 3rd E.E. or the 3rd Top to make room.

[gustha]

Vindicate or not vindicate, west or not west, I would never go downto 2 EE. I absolutely want, if not open my hand with a copy of EE, at least drawing one in the very first turns of the game, especially g2 on the draw. West is good to act as the 3rd wasteland or the 4th mishra, but never replaces the 3rd EE...

[Mark Sun]

Vindicate or not vindicate, west or not west, I would never go downto 2 EE. I absolutely want, if not open my hand with a copy of EE, at least drawing one in the very first turns of the game, especially g2 on the draw. West is good to act as the 3rd wasteland or the 4th mishra, but never replaces the 3rd EE...

+1. I've often thought about cutting Tolaria West, but it makes its way back into the list each time. Yes, it's a crappy land to start your opening hand with.

Anyways, EE is a ridiculous card, and with my predicted metagame that needed fast(er) removal, I don't think it was that bad of a move. No guarantees on whether I keep it in or not for blind metagames, though.

[ultimoman]

I agree, glad to see others feel the same. I'm usually quite happy to see an E.E. in the opening hand, especially against Ichorid. A 3rd Top is nice but I feel that perhaps the 3rd E.E. is even more needed.

[Reagens]

So I am the only one that disagrees I'm afraid.

The problem that I have with explosives is that it either takes two turns (because I don't yet have the mana to blow it up immediatly) or it only solves part of the problem (threats at different CC).
On the draw it also does nothing to stop lackey from connecting which makes it a little too slow for me.

That's also why I like at least a singleton copy of disk in my deck. It blows everything but is considerably slower.

So in my opinion:

explosives -> better to answer 'goyf, confidant, aether vial.

disk -> answers everything but you curse the fact that you have to wait a turn. Another huge advantage is that you can blow it up at your opponent's eot. Which can make a very big difference.

As a side note I think that if you are running academy ruins, you should also run tolaria west. If not, I can see that extra colored land makes you more consistent.

[mossivo1986]

So quick update: Meandeck open was a fail for me. Quick idea of the matches I played.

r1 Faerie sligh
(Ninja of the deep hours standstill etc. It's a terrible matchup and I had the cards to get there, however my opponent simply had the yugioh and I lost.)
r2 Gobbos 2-0 (obv.)
r3 Ichorid (Rueben bressler. He takes game 1. I sideboard but accidently place my sideboard out stuff back in the deck since it was all face down. I still almost win but I fail 0-2)
r4 5c faerie upheaval psychatog. He gets his nuts game 1 and rolls me with double bitter x3 standstill x3 force x3 daze x3 wasteland and I just scoop. g2 I have him beat he upheavals and I don't have the counter. We build up and I extirpate upheaval and he casts a tog, I was on my way to killing him but tog forces the draw. All I have to say is 5 color and that should give you all an idea of how F.M.LI was.
Drop so 1-3 drop.

Needless to say I was 6-8 in edh games this weekend. Picked up a bunch of stuff and had an amazing car ride. Ill probobly right a report on the tournament section. Fun shit.

Also STP and Snare were nowhere all weekend but my conclusion is that snare for smaller events (50<) should be the following package.

3x snare
3x c.s.
4x force

It just seems like I wanted counterspell all day long.

[whiteshepherdman]

What are usually the strongest cards to play against zoo apart from our usual suite of 4 swords,3 explosives and, 2-3 wraths?

[mossivo1986]

My side currently is
+4 cb
+1 blast
+1 path
+1 blast

[whiteshepherdman]

This is my current sideboard, i don't know what i should run in the last 2 slots if anyone can give me some advice, I'm playing without cunninng wish at the moment:

3 Negates
4 E Plagues
1 counterspell
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Crucible of Worlds

[rsaunder]

I'd personally run life gain, pulse probably in a random meta.

Another SB question: how are you guys doing goblins now? I'm playing a vindicate-still list with 3 tops and I'm not sure how to play this. I have a heavy SBfor the matchup, +3 P2E, +3 Plague, and +2 pulse. Most of what I want to cut is blue (Spell Snare), but doing so makes FOW less likely to have fodder to counter vial. How are you guys doing this, or how, hypothetically, would you play this?

[whiteshepherdman]

Well, I usually just go +4 Plague. and having 7 swords effects and that usually is enough for me. BEB would be nice to stop their ringleaders

[Mark Sun]

I'd personally run life gain, pulse probably in a random meta.

Another SB question: how are you guys doing goblins now? I'm playing a vindicate-still list with 3 tops and I'm not sure how to play this. I have a heavy SBfor the matchup, +3 P2E, +3 Plague, and +2 pulse. Most of what I want to cut is blue (Spell Snare), but doing so makes FOW less likely to have fodder to counter vial. How are you guys doing this, or how, hypothetically, would you play this?

Is Pulse really the answer against Goblins? I've pondered this for some time, but I've since cut Pulse from my SB. I agree on the random meta call for Pulse though, with pesky Burn or the Zoo matchup. That said, for your list I don't see why +4 Counterbalance wouldn't be a better solution.

For me, I'd rather see a Vial t1 than Lackey, although both are pretty huge threats. t1 Vial can usually have a 'answer' of EE @ 1.



Well, I usually just go +4 Plague. and having 7 swords effects and that usually is enough for me. BEB would be nice to stop their ringleaders

You could do +2 BEB/Blast, which gives you a pretty good SB plan against crap like Burn/Zoo, as stated above.

[rsaunder]

CB is kinda terrible against goblins as all vial aggro, and I don't run them out of the board. Pulses aren't there specifically for goblins, but they help in an aggro matchup with reach like this, so I figure they're worth the space. Any thoughts on how to fit the hate in?

[Mark Sun]

CB is kinda terrible against goblins as all vial aggro, and I don't run them out of the board. Pulses aren't there specifically for goblins, but they help in an aggro matchup with reach like this, so I figure they're worth the space. Any thoughts on how to fit the hate in?

Oh, sorry, I misorganized my thoughts on that. Didn't mean to imply siding in CB against Goblins, was more saying that with 3 Top already MD, CB is a good choice to side in against the 0-1-2cmc decks. About Pulse vs. Goblins, with the card advantage that Ringleader/Matron generates, I don't think Pulse will have a huge influence on the game's outcome.

For my list (ignore the one I posted in the last page, that was wrongly metagamed anyways and I need to go back to the drawing board), my plan against Goblins, pre-Spell Snare MD, unfortunately ran into the same problems we're discussing now. Blue has to be cut to make room for the hate; I did -3 Standstill -1 FoF -1 Vindicate -1 Disk, +3 EP +3 PtE. I may go even further and add in BEB/Hydro in the SB soon.

[Hanni]

I've got Blue Elemental Blasts in my sideboard, so I bring in all 4 (in place of Counterbalance). I've also got Path to Exile in the board, which can replace Standstills or Counterspells, but doing so reduces the blue count, so that's debatable.

[whiteshepherdman]

at the moment this is what I'm trying:

3 negate
3 path to exile
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Counterspell
4 Engineered Plague

3 negates: I like to bring these in mainly against Combo but they are also useful against late game control decks like ultimate walker

3 path to exile: I side 2 of these in against my tribal matchups and 3 when i'm playing against zoo. 7 swords effects +4 engineered plagues is really enough against tribal but since we don't use plagues against Zoo, a fourth path is useful.


2 relics: I bring these in against dredge but they are really good against tempo thresh as you can relic yourself to keep their goyfs small or sac it to remove all gy's.

Tormod's: against dredge

1 Crucible: Against Ultimate Walker and against tempo thresh and other land destruction decks. Recurring factories as blockers against thresh is really useful if you can get crucible to stick

1 Counterspell: This one i took out of Geoff's book cause its a genius innovative idea. If you need a good mid/late game you can side in a counterspell in place of a force of will. That way you get both control and don't lose card advantage.

4 Engineered plagues: Merfolk, Elves, Goblins; maybe faeries but i haven't tested that



The only thing that I've been debating with myself is running 1 wrath like Geoff is doing instead of the 3rd path in my sideboard. It seems like a great idea for 4 wrath effects but i feel that against Zoo it would be better to have more spot removal and let EE take care of the 2CC things. Many of the good zoo players don't over extend so getting a wrath for more than 1 or 2 is very hard.

Then again wrath is much better than path in the tempo thresh matchup where i would side out my vindicates and keep just 4 path effects for their goyfs. In that situation a wrath would be helpful in wiping the board of threats. What do you guys think about this? Wrath vs Path to exile

[Citrus-God]

I've got Blue Elemental Blasts in my sideboard, so I bring in all 4 (in place of Counterbalance). I've also got Path to Exile in the board, which can replace Standstills or Counterspells, but doing so reduces the blue count, so that's debatable.

You know, I would keep Standstills in if I'm boarding in 4 BEBs and 4 Paths. To be honest, the only cards I should be scared of are AEther Vials, and you cant expect them to reliably mulligan into Vials, especially when you have 4 FoWs and 3 EEs in your deck. Just keep Standstills in and maintain card advantage against them. The point of the game is to keep them off Ringleaders and SCGs, in addition to not dying. Oh, and casting Elspeth.

[Mark Sun]

You know, I would keep Standstills in if I'm boarding in 4 BEBs and 4 Paths. To be honest, the only cards I should be scared of are AEther Vials, and you cant expect them to reliably mulligan into Vials, especially when you have 4 FoWs and 3 EEs in your deck. Just keep Standstills in and maintain card advantage against them. The point of the game is to keep them off Ringleaders and SCGs, in addition to not dying. Oh, and casting Elspeth.

:confused:

Never thought about it that way; I think I might try this out. I have been fearing Wasteland / Vial too much that I've always sided Standstills out. Citrus, you think I'd be fine with this alongside a +3 Path / +2-3 Blue Blast plan? I'd have to retune my SB, but I'd rather have pure CA like Standstill in there. I have been trying to save counters for Ringleaders & SCG's if possible.

[Citrus-God]

Never thought about it that way; I think I might try this out. I have been fearing Wasteland / Vial too much that I've always sided Standstills out.

The best way to combat Wasteland is to draw more cards and play more land. The only deck I ever see across from me with Wastelands that is reliably scary are the mirror and 43 Land.


Citrus, you think I'd be fine with this alongside a +3 Path / +2-3 Blue Blast plan? I'd have to retune my SB, but I'd rather have pure CA like Standstill in there. I have been trying to save counters for Ringleaders & SCG's if possible.

That should be enough for the maindeck and still keep Standstills in the maindeck. I say misplaying with Standstill has more to do with you keeping bad hands. Regardless of whether people blame Standstill for being bad with so much early game removal, I think it's just players being bad players. If Goblins let's you sit under Standstill... My god, they just gave you land drops. It's insane. I've had a Goblin player sit back and let me drop land so that he can break it and make me discard. Definitely not the best choice, seeing as my deck is superior to theirs in many, many ways once it has 3-4 lands in play. They also did this while they ran out of steam. Also a bad call, they have more tempo losses than I do, because all of their cards can only be played on the main step. Even though the Goblin player was making a mistake of letting me sit back under Standstill, I wanted to demonstrate how regrettable their decision was.

[Atog]

You know, I would keep Standstills in if I'm boarding in 4 BEBs and 4 Paths. To be honest, the only cards I should be scared of are AEther Vials, and you cant expect them to reliably mulligan into Vials, especially when you have 4 FoWs and 3 EEs in your deck. Just keep Standstills in and maintain card advantage against them. The point of the game is to keep them off Ringleaders and SCGs, in addition to not dying. Oh, and casting Elspeth.

What you side out if you keep standstills in? Let's say if you would playing geoff's latest build? Do you use same plan against other decks what run vial, like merfolks and slivers?

[Hanni]

You know, I would keep Standstills in if I'm boarding in 4 BEBs and 4 Paths. To be honest, the only cards I should be scared of are AEther Vials, and you cant expect them to reliably mulligan into Vials, especially when you have 4 FoWs and 3 EEs in your deck. Just keep Standstills in and maintain card advantage against them. The point of the game is to keep them off Ringleaders and SCGs, in addition to not dying. Oh, and casting Elspeth.

Yes, I've never actually taken out Standstills vs Goblins, just saying it was one possible option. Honestly, between 4 StP, 4 BEB, 3 WoG, and 2 Oblivion Ring... I'm pretty satisfied with my removal package vs Goblins.

I don't run EE's, but hey, Oblivion Ring gets the job done too, and unless it's a 1st turn EE, they both cost the same mana investment (albeit O Ring has to be done all in 1 turn). Most Goblins these days run no enchantment removal, so I'm pretty safe there.

It's probably safe to assume that I could drop 1-2 Counterspells vs Goblins... and I run 1 WoG, 2 O Ring, and 4 PtE in my sideboard... so I can bring in whatever. 3 WoG vs Goblins is probably the correct number because of their mana denial. O Rings answer Vial, but PtE is a far more efficient removal spell, so that's something I would need to more seriously playtest. I'm kinda leaning towards the PtE's at this point.

[Citrus-God]

What you side out if you keep standstills in? Let's say if you would playing geoff's latest build? Do you use same plan against other decks what run vial, like merfolks and slivers?

Against Goblins:

-2 Spell Snare
-4 FoW

+2 Engineered Plague
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Counterspell
+1 Wrath of God


Against Merfolk:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Snare
-3 Counterspell

+2 Path to Exile
+2 Engineered Plague
+3 Preacher
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Crucible of Worlds


Yeah... I board out FoW for both match ups. Why? Against Vial Goblins, I've always felt that their mana denial was never effective against me. Also, with Vindicates and EE in the maindeck, I can effectively answer Vials easily. Also, my 7 Swords to Plowshares also allow me to safely let Standstill resolve.

Against Merfolk, it's the same deal, but to the extreme. If there's one thing I've learned, creature removal is brutal against that deck. Also, the more I play this deck against Merfolk, the more I felt that counters were lacking in function. I also felt as if that what helps this deck win against Merfolk is the White part of Landstill, not Blue. Having cards like Plague and Preacher help a ton.

I have not tested against Slivers much, so I have no say here.


Yes, I've never actually taken out Standstills vs Goblins, just saying it was one possible option. Honestly, between 4 StP, 4 BEB, 3 WoG, and 2 Oblivion Ring... I'm pretty satisfied with my removal package vs Goblins.

You could keep the entire set of Standstills in man.


I don't run EE's, but hey, Oblivion Ring gets the job done too, and unless it's a 1st turn EE, they both cost the same mana investment (albeit O Ring has to be done all in 1 turn). Most Goblins these days run no enchantment removal, so I'm pretty safe there.

Vial doesnt get scary until it hits 3 counters. So Oblivion Ring still has game.


It's probably safe to assume that I could drop 1-2 Counterspells vs Goblins... and I run 1 WoG, 2 O Ring, and 4 PtE in my sideboard... so I can bring in whatever. 3 WoG vs Goblins is probably the correct number because of their mana denial. O Rings answer Vial, but PtE is a far more efficient removal spell, so that's something I would need to more seriously playtest. I'm kinda leaning towards the PtE's at this point.

I've always felt that most Goblin players will have a hard time against Landstill, because Goblins needs to budget mana between casting high quality threats and using mana denial against me. Of course, this will be a problem, because PTE encourages the Goblin player to do both. I say use PTE when you have to, otherwise, Swords first.

[whiteshepherdman]

I'm not sure i like having no counters though, this is how i would side using geoff's 60 and my sb

Merfolk:

+4 E Plague
+2 Path to Exile

- 3 vindicate
-1 EE (not synergistic with 4 e. plagues)
-2 standstill

[Mark Sun]

I'm not sure i like having no counters though, this is how i would side using geoff's 60 and my sb

Merfolk:

+4 E Plague
+2 Path to Exile

- 3 vindicate
-1 EE (not synergistic with 4 e. plagues)
-2 standstill

I think I might give the counter-less thing a go, at least against Merfolk. They don't have a Ringleader effect (rather, such a card exists, it's just not optimal) to give them more advantage. I don't like the out plan, though. Extra Vindicates are necessary, as well as EE, especially because it can take out a Vial and the Pithing Needle that has a high chance of showing up. That's just the way I see it.

Against Goblins, anyways, you want to shut off their CA by winning that war with counters (or if you play Humility, just laugh and keep going). Pathing/StPing a Ringleader / Matron means nothing when they gained more cards to replace them. Also, in the RB build, a well timed Earwig Squad can be a bitch :wink:

[Ectoplasm]

Preacher

Just a heads-up, when Geoff first came up with the idea of running Preachers I added three to my sideboard as well, to say how they'd play out (and because the card is cool) and I haven't looked back since.
The card is amazing, more people should at least give it a try (availability might be an issue though) because it simply owns so many matchups.

[RogueMTG]

Which match ups do you bring it in for besides Merfolk?

[Wess]

Anyone tried running Mox Diamonds in the build? If so, maybe its more suited to 4-colour landstill, but it seems that when this deck gets to 4-5 mana, it will most likely win....when this deck loses, its because it cant cast its 4 mana spells. Seems like a set of Diamonds+crucibles would go really well. Has anyone tested this?
I think it even strengthens the mid-late game as well, as we can cast card draw like fact or fiction or Jace earlier.

It would also greatly improve the Goblin and Merfolk matchup, and Tempo Thresh as well.

~Wess

[rockout]

Search the thread for mox diamond. I remember laughing someone out of the landstill thread for running mox diamond like 30 pages ago.

[Wess]

Hah, well that was a fast reply:confused: ....I tried running Mox's in my last tournament, and it was really solid for me, so was wondering if anyone has actually tested it...not simply dismissed the idea.

~Wess

[rockout]

Like I said search the thread. I know a guy tested it and said it was good.

[Ectoplasm]

Which match ups do you bring it in for besides Merfolk?

Rock, aggroloam, goblins. I used to bring them in against zoo as well, together with some Ajani's and paths but I figured I'd rather have a high permission-count instead of a lightning-rod.
They also own random matchups like Dragon Stompy.
Edit: Note that alot of decks that he's good against board out their spotremoval against you anyway, so protecting him is a piece of cake.

[Tinefol]

Anyone tried running Mox Diamonds in the build? If so, maybe its more suited to 4-colour landstill, but it seems that when this deck gets to 4-5 mana, it will most likely win....when this deck loses, its because it cant cast its 4 mana spells. Seems like a set of Diamonds+crucibles would go really well. Has anyone tested this?
I think it even strengthens the mid-late game as well, as we can cast card draw like fact or fiction or Jace earlier.

It would also greatly improve the Goblin and Merfolk matchup, and Tempo Thresh as well.

~Wess

Mox Diamond is awful in 4c, because Perdeed just destroys it. As for general usage - no, I wouldn't run it in Landstill, because you don't want your mana sources be any more vulnerable than lands - this gives your opponent another angle to attack your manabase and screw you. Not only that, but its tempo-gain in a deck which isn't built to use that tempo, and straight card disadvantage in a deck that is built around producing card advantage. You are speaking of getting up to 4-5 mana, but using Mox Diamond you lose a land (in fact, you've just virtually wastelanded your future land drop, while speeding up your next one)! Granted, you can use Crucible to recover that land, but unlike Aggro-Loam, you don't run 26+ lands, you don't run Crucible as 4 of, and you can not afford to devote even more card slots to mana sources instead of business spells, because that isn't deck's engine.

[whiteshepherdman]

Does anyone still use humility or is it just inferior to wrath of god nowadays



What are your boarding plans against tempo thresh? Diabolic edict in the sideboard is looking better and better every day

[Citrus-God]

Just a heads-up, when Geoff first came up with the idea of running Preachers I added three to my sideboard as well, to say how they'd play out (and because the card is cool) and I haven't looked back since.
The card is amazing, more people should at least give it a try (availability might be an issue though) because it simply owns so many matchups.

Boarding in Preachers against Tempo Thresh is fucking amazing too. They tend to board out their Burn for REBs. I want to avoid being hit by REBs, so I tend to board in non-Blue cards. Just cast Preacher and steal a fucking Goyf. It's so fucking sick, it's almost amazing.

Also, against CounterTop Thresh. They tend to board out removal as well.

Sadly, using this tech only makes Game 2 workable for those decks. If they board out cards for creature removal because they're scared of Preachers, you got them to board out disruption, threats and/or lands. Creature removal, is not disruption. You can board out 1-2 copies out for Game 3 so that you can exploit the fear while still meaning somewhat present you might have it. Here's the thing though: when you shuffle up for Game 2, always shuffle your SB in and remove the unwanted cards. Game 3, do the same: it will challenge their decisions of whether to play out of fear or consideration.

[Illissius]

While I'm not saying it's not, are we sure that Preacher is better than both Sower of Temptation and Vedalken Shackles?

[spiderfreak]

Which match ups do you bring it in for besides Merfolk?

Hi I test with Geoff a lot (a lot lol) and I bring in Preacher for Merfolk, Angel Stompy, Deadguy Ale, Mono Green Chalice Aggro, Armageddon Stax, Faeries, Dragon Stompy, Dreadstill, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, Elfs, Affinity.

anything with not a lot of removal.

[santeria]

hi, Im not familiar with this deck at all. why is preacher used over sower ? because preacher can release and a grab a bigger threat if need be ?

[whiteshepherdman]

Not really, they can just give you the small guy back. He gives you blockers but I'm not convinced he's really that phenominal

[Ectoplasm]

You can keep using him, which means your opponent usually just doesn't declare attacks at all because you'll just grab a random dude and block with it, and do it again next turn.
That's how I use him at least :D Wait for their shit to untap and grab something.

[Bardo]

While I'm not saying it's not, are we sure that Preacher is better than both Sower of Temptation and Vedalken Shackles?

On their merits; Preacher costs 1WW, which is cheaper than the alternatives (except for Old Man of the Sea); and can't be hit with REB/PBlast. Both Sower and Preacher are easy pickings for Incinerator, though Gobs will likely side out that card vs. Landstill in G2/3, so it shouldn't matter.

Shackles is immune to REB and Incinerator; but falls to Tinkerer-like cards and Grip. Shackles also costs 5, which is a ton of mana.

All, except for Sower can be neutered with Pithing Needle.

I think you can make a case that Preacher is better than the alternatives and stand by it, but only in a control-heavy version that can support WW on turn 3-4.

[mossivo1986]

preacher has more applications then i originally thought but i worry about teching out and getting beat by undertech (mogg fanatic. jitte, etc.) I run into these kind of players all the time and its not only annoying but its scarier to me to risk rather then safely reward as ep does.

[Citrus-God]

preacher has more applications then i originally thought but i worry about teching out and getting beat by undertech (mogg fanatic. jitte, etc.) I run into these kind of players all the time and its not only annoying but its scarier to me to risk rather then safely reward as ep does.

But you should never board Preachers in against a deck like Zoo. And Goblins dropped Fanatic a long time ago, so Preacher has some validity there in that match up.

[mossivo1986]

i just checked the top 6 or so gobbos lists on deckcheck including spods list and while i know its not incredibly relivent it is in fact good against landstill and it is actually run in 2 or 3 of those lists. so heres what im saying. regardless of how good these lists of goblins are is it really worth it to play preacher when u completely risk undermining the (ep) strategy in favor of an uninformed pilot?

[whiteshepherdman]

I've been testing the tempo thresh matchup a lot and have found that i prefer playing a 4th EE in the board for game 2 to deal with their mongoose than a 4th wrath since going up to 4 lands and then protecting the wrath from dazes can often time be difficult.

[gustha]

I've been testing the tempo thresh matchup a lot and have found that i prefer playing a 4th EE in the board for game 2 to deal with their mongoose than a 4th wrath since going up to 4 lands and then protecting the wrath from dazes can often time be difficult.
I have found that dropping wraths is worth in any case :) However, your argument does not make sense. Your game ending bombs are all cc4 (wrath, humility, decree, elspeth, disk if you run it): reaching 5-6 lands is mandatory. If you can't in a reasonable amount of time, then you are in trouble. If you can't, EE or not, you lose.

[Bahamuth]

I have found that dropping wraths is worth in any case :) However, your argument does not make sense. Your game ending bombs are all cc4 (wrath, humility, decree, elspeth, disk if you run it): reaching 5-6 lands is mandatory. If you can't in a reasonable amount of time, then you are in trouble. If you can't, EE or not, you lose.

Against Tempo Thresh, that's not true. The way Tempo Thresh beats you, is having a single Mongoose (Goyf sucks so much in this matchup) beat you down while disrupting you and mostly answering your hate. The more removal you have for Mongoose, the higher the chances for you to win. If you manage to remove the Mongoose, chances are Tempo Thresh will have to spend a couple of turns finding a new one. At that point, you're in a very good position.

[whiteshepherdman]

I think what i meant was that EE gives you more time to get the lands that you need.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hey guys i actually don't play Landstill anymore, but i wanted to know why some people play preacher in their sideboard, as shackles or maybe Sower/Control Magic seemed better to me? :rolleyes:

[Ectoplasm]

Click one page back and read the discussion :D

[Citrus-God]

I think what i meant was that EE gives you more time to get the lands that you need.

No, the problem with more EEs against Tempo Thresh is that you make their late game Stifles more valuable. This is why I would rather have a 4th WoG rather than a 4th EE. Or better yet, board in Humility. Their cantrips are poor considered to CounterTop Threshes, so you don't have to worry that much about Crypt. And if they're dumb enough to drop Mongeese and trying to squeeze damage through, feel free to aim removal at it now that you have Humility in play.

[rsaunder]

I really think that top is the best weapon against tempo thresh. They basically have to force it or get crushed by your card quality and ability to make land drops. Since they'll be playing the tempo game early, you'll even have your removal online within a turn or two after the drop their first goose. It's not foolproof, but it's the best plan I've seen thus far.

[whiteshepherdman]

ok back to the drawing board then, I'm just trying to mold a sideboard that's strong against my meta but also won't lose to other tier 1 decks, thanks for all your advice.

[Citrus-God]

ok back to the drawing board then, I'm just trying to mold a sideboard that's strong against my meta but also won't lose to other tier 1 decks, thanks for all your advice.

The best advice I can give you is for you to play with what is comfortable for you, but know the power level and efficiency and versatility of your sideboard cards before you even consider putting them in.

@rsaunder: That's a very interesting way of winning against Tempo Thresh. Probably the most effective and efficient way as well.

[mossivo1986]

what a card that improves card quality, consistency in land drops, and also creates unfair gamestates. all four colorless mana so to defy wasteland and stifle color screw. who'd a thunk? nah just kidding but +1 for top strategy.

[Hanni]

I really think that top is the best weapon against tempo thresh. They basically have to force it or get crushed by your card quality and ability to make land drops. Since they'll be playing the tempo game early, you'll even have your removal online within a turn or two after the drop their first goose. It's not foolproof, but it's the best plan I've seen thus far.

I said that a while back, but I don't think anyone heard me. That doubles over for all of the tempo matchups, including Merfolk.

Definitely glad you've made the same connection, though. Yet another reason why I advocate 4 Top's, aside from all the other reasons.

[Dino]

does preacher really help this deck's bad matchups?

[mossivo1986]

no

[Qax]

I got a 3-4 place finish in a 65 person event in Boras, Sweden with this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

1 Spell Snare

1 Fire // Ice
1 Lightning Helix

4 Standstill

2 Humility

1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant

3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage

2 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip

In the swiss i went 5-1-1, Winning vs Pox, Ugw Countertop, Burn, Ledless dredge, Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, draw vs White Stax and losing vs Merfolk. I won the quarter vs a Ugw countertop list, then lost the semi vs a ugr tempo list.

My sideboard strategy was,

vs Zoo

-4 Standstill
-1 Jace Beleren
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-6 Kort

+4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Firespout
+6 Kort

vs Dredge

-4 Standstill
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Jace Beleren
-14 Kort

+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Firespout
+14 Kort

vs ANT

-2 Humility
-1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
-1 Ajani Vengeant
-3 Swords to plowshares
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-8 kort

+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Meddling Mage
+8 kort

vs Merfolk

-4 Standstill
-4 kort

+2 Firespout
+2 Tarmogoyf
+4 kort

vs Tempotresh

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Standstill
-4 Kort

+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Firespout
+4 Kort

vs Goblins

-1 Spell Snare
-4 Standstill
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-6 Kort

+4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Firespout
+6 Kort


I feel I gained a lot versus alot of the harder matchups by adding the counterbalance maindeck. This is my first post here on mtgthesource but I am an avid reader!

[gustha]

Hi and welcome in this thread.

I'll post some considerations when I have more time. Just a flash question: why didn't you just add 3-4 tarmos maindeck if you sided in every match, and some letting humility in? You could've dropped red for green (garruck, tarmo, life from the loam, etc.),or just a 3-1 tropical-volcanic split for a 4th color (EE) and sb firespout.

[Reagens]

I went to a tournament last weekend going 12th on 46 people.
I will spare you all the list because it was a very unsatisfying list with too many cute tricks and too little strategy. Since the cute tricks also failed at doing what they were brought in for there is very little to be said about that. It resembles the 61 card list Konsultant used a while back but with main deck relic of progenitus and a humility.

I played against:
Faeries (win, despite my best efforts to screw up game 2)
Landstill mirror (win, his manabase was very shaky and I managed to take advantage of that)
Merfolk (loss, because he topdecked like hell and I didn’t)
Doomsday combo (win, because I was extremely lucky game 1 and because I saw enough hatred game 2)
GWB loam (loss, because the cuteness of relic main didn’t come out and my manabase was under heavy strain. I lost game 2 because I already lost in in my mind so the game followed suit)
Goblins (win, because humility is just that good)

Conclusions for me were that the newer version of Konsultant’s 60 will be more stable for me as well. Although I won quite a few games on tolaria west I think it’s too much of an investment.

The real problem is how to address the sideboard problem.
I was thinking about the following:
Since I have quite some time to test I would like to develop a new sideboard.
Problem match-ups include:
Merfolk (on the rise again after being annihilated by Zoo in the meta)
Loam (nemesis match-up for me if there ever was one)
Goblins (not the worst match-up but since the quantity of gobs in my meta I don’t want to get caught with my pants down)

Combo (pre-board quite difficult)
Ichorid

My proposed sideboard would consist of 2-offs and maybe 1 1-off or a 3-off (I don’t know yet)
Anyway my first thought:
2 orim's chant (I think this is a VERY strong card against combo)
2 meddling mage (Combo again)
2 path to exile (copied from the master)
2 preacher (I want to test for myself what the fuss is about with this guy)
2 humility (very strong card)
2 engineered plague (tribal, ichorid)
2 relic of progenitus (ichorid, loam)
1 crucible of worlds (loam, merfolk, mirror)
Maybe this is somewhat too geared against aggro?
Zoo will become a very difficult match-up of course, but what to cut?
Ideas are welcome!

[Qax]

The opponents sideboarding plan frequently consists of removing all their creature removal for artifact/enchantment hate and the goyfs suit very nicely then. In the matchups where you need to be the aggressor they add some much needed speed.

Actually I only sided in the tarmogoys a bit less than half of the games, my sideboarding plan doesn't cover some of the matchups I phased.

Dropping red(except for firespout and 4:th EE colour) is actually what I am thinking aswell. Before I started tweaking the list I had alot more red cards in maindeck in which it all made sense but now the red presence is very low. A garruck seems interesting, although double green is a bit harsh.

The only problem with dropping red is dropping the little lifegain I've got in Ajani and Helix and I really feel both those saved me on some occasions.


Hi and welcome in this thread.

I'll post some considerations when I have more time. Just a flash question: why didn't you just add 3-4 tarmos maindeck if you sided in every match, and some letting humility in? You could've dropped red for green (garruck, tarmo, life from the loam, etc.),or just a 3-1 tropical-volcanic split for a 4th color (EE) and sb firespout.

[spiderfreak]

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

1 Spell Snare

1 Fire // Ice
1 Lightning Helix

4 Standstill

2 Humility

1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant

3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage

2 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip

I feel I gained a lot versus alot of the harder matchups by adding the counterbalance maindeck. This is my first post here on mtgthesource but I am an avid reader!

Hi and welcome.

It looks like a good deck but I don't want to be an ass but that is not landstill its more like Ultimate Walker

[mossivo1986]

700.

+1 on ultimate walker splashing fourth color for green. Seems not only inefficient but 1 veangent? Really?

The uwr splashes are more confused then that time...... (que family guy scene)

[rsaunder]

If I was going to run green at all in a deck like this or like landstill, I would go all the way and run LftL and Garruck. Really, they seem like the best reasons to run green, not goyf out of the board.

[mossivo1986]

garruck in my testing was underwhelming.

[Citrus-God]

garruck in my testing was underwhelming.

Agreed.

If you're going for Green, I think you should definitely look into maindeck Goyfs and Shackles, as well as CB in the sideboard. I've been messing around with this lately with a Green splash. Oddly enough, I still prefer the UWb Landstill more, mainly because it's more flexible, has a better late game and makes more dead cards for the opponent to deal with.

[Teuras]

I've been playing around with Haunting Echoes for a few days. The look on the opponents face when it resolves might be enough reason to run it ^^ - but usually it just feels like a win-more-card. As most games it gets sided out game two.

This is the list I have been testing:

Lands 23
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Win Cons 7
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Eternal Dragon (card number 61).

Spells 31
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

Sideboard 15
3 Engineered Plague
3 Counterbalance
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Extirpate
2 Path to Exile
1 Counterspells
1 Pulse of the Field

The sideboard is still a work in progress. The black mana sources have been enough to get me two black mana midgame for Haunting Echoes.

Going to take this list to a medium-sized tournament in a few weeks - unless my testing shows that Haunting Echoes is just a neat trick and nothing more. In which case I'll just switch them to Cunning Wishes instead.

Anyone with some experience with Haunting Echoes in Landstill? ^^

[Citrus-God]

Haunting Echoes is only win-more because it either can't help you win (or at least help) the game while you're losing and doesn't do anything when you're being proactive. Elspeth at least makes blockers, and DoJ at least cycles so that you can draw into land.

In place of Haunting Echoes, run Fact or Fiction instead.

[konsultant]

does preacher really help this deck's bad matchups?

Preacher was intended to drastically improve two difficult match up's, Merfolk and Affinity. In all of my testing and tournament play it has done that quite effectively. I'd consider boarding him in against anything without Creature removal or perhaps as a surprise factor as most players tend to board out spot removal against us. It give's you the opportunity to try and out play your opponent with sideboarding. As Citrus God said ALWAYS put your entire sb in and take out 15 cards after EVERY SINGLE GAME. Whether you leave the preacher's in or just leave one in is up to you but it does give you the opportunity to hose your opponent if done correctly. Game 2 against canadian thresh i'd probably bring them in and if it went to game 3 i'd probably take them back out. Might try the same thing for aggro loam. If I won game one I may leave them sb and bring them in game 3. You have to make a judgment call on the fly but it does give you some "Left Field" tech to surprise them with.

[rockout]

Anyone with some experience with Haunting Echoes in Landstill? ^^

I played haunting echoes as a 1-of out of my board for about 2 tournaments and I only ever casted it once and it won me the game in turn 5 of extra time by allowing me to play standstill on top of standstill to deck my opponent. Other than that, it was too slow to be relevant and wanting double black at any point in the game just made me sad.

Yeah, preacher is extremely good in the matchups Geoff describes.

[sunshine]

A search on this thread didn't return any hits for Seasinger. She seems pretty good against anything with the Stifle->Dreadnought plan. Seasinger doesn't help as much as Preacher against Affinity I suppose, but I don't really see that much (or any) Affinity where I play. Just throwing it out there.

[rsaunder]

I was about to dismiss seasinger as complete jank, but quite honestly guys, does preacher come in against anything that doesn't play islands? I mean, he's not worth it against zoo, I don't think he comes in V. Gobbos.

Still probably inferior since the deck already wants to hit WW and it does work in the random non-U matchup with little direct damage, but definitely not as bad as I first thought.

[whiteshepherdman]

+1 for the pump by LoA. people running preacher bring him in just for the affinity/merfolk matchups too, plus you can pick what you want with this guy, i think she's worth considering for the preacher slot

[Citrus-God]

+1 for the pump by LoA. people running preacher bring him in just for the affinity/merfolk matchups too, plus you can pick what you want with this guy, i think she's worth considering for the preacher slot

Not when you're dealing with REBs. Seasinger sucks because of REBs present. Preacher, at least, works well with your mana base. Also, if they get rid of your Preacher, don't worry, you're playing against aggro. When aggro spends cards to trade with your cards, it's not that big of a deal.

[Mark Sun]

I was about to dismiss seasinger as complete jank, but quite honestly guys, does preacher come in against anything that doesn't play islands? I mean, he's not worth it against zoo, I don't think he comes in V. Gobbos.

Still probably inferior since the deck already wants to hit WW and it does work in the random non-U matchup with little direct damage, but definitely not as bad as I first thought.

I think Citrus has mentioned him coming in against decks with bigger (but lower density) threats like Loam, etc.

It's really weird that there's a Seasinger discussion, we just talked about that card tonight as a potential card in this deck (pitches to Force? Might have potential) if Merfolk tends to be a problem.

[whiteshepherdman]

Here's some insight to help clear things up from the one from above:

"Preacher's primary role is just as Merfolk hate, I'd consider bringing him in against any deck that didn't run creature removal, Affinity or Ichorid perhaps. Generally he sit's in the sb unless i'm playing against Merfolk." (Geoff, Master Landstiller)

[Ectoplasm]

Is there a reason to *not* side him in vs goblins? You could get rid of jace and some counterspells, board in paths as well and your matchup looks very favourable.

[Mark Sun]

Is there a reason to *not* side him in vs goblins? You could get rid of jace and some counterspells, board in paths as well and your matchup looks very favourable.

Incinerator and Warren Weirding, both are tutorable with Matron, so I don't see this happening.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Incinerator and Warren Weirding, both are tutorable with Matron, so I don't see this happening.

Every decent goblinpilot will board out Weirding. Incinerator is the only thing left, but is on it's own a very valid reason.

[Mark Sun]

Every decent goblinpilot will board out Weirding. Incinerator is the only thing left, but is on it's own a very valid reason.

Oh, yeah, sorry. Just woke up, not thinking clearly :wink:

[Ectoplasm]

I'd reckon most goblin pilots would board out incinerators as well :)

[Citrus-God]

I'd reckon most goblin pilots would board out incinerators as well :)

If they have better cards to bring in. Sometimes a 2/1 is better than some other creature. Lately, they've been printing better creatures, so Goblins will definitely board out Gempalm. Of course, they can easily board it back in against you, and your lose some of your advantage over them, since they dont actually spend cards to kill your Preacher.

[Atog]

What you guys side in against thresh decks? Like baseruption, countertop bant and similar decks? Do you side out wraths for more spot removal and maybe 1x counterspell?

[NQN]

Nothing? Just abuse the fact that our 60>their 60. Maybe some Perishs if you have them but apart from that, I wouldn´t board Paths (except for TempoTresh where I´d go for Relics and Paths).

[Ectoplasm]

Anything that improves your lategame > planeswalkers (I still want to try out that 'Left Field tech' Liliana), crucibles etc.

[Citrus-God]

What you guys side in against thresh decks? Like baseruption, countertop bant and similar decks? Do you side out wraths for more spot removal and maybe 1x counterspell?

You definitely keep Wraths in post board. In fact, if you could board in more WoGs, you would. It's a really good card in this match up.

[whiteshepherdman]

I was trying some secret tech against tempo thresh yesterday and ended up winning with E plague/ relic combo for game 2. Siding out 3 vindicates and 3 EE for 3 plagues and 3 relics and paths instead swords since he didn't run basics.

[mossivo1986]

I was trying some secret tech against tempo thresh yesterday and ended up winning with E plague/ relic combo for game 2. Siding out 3 vindicates and 3 EE for 3 plagues and 3 relics and paths instead swords since he didn't run basics.

lol you dont side out stp.... almost ever (Even against tes post board you keep it in for xantrid.)

also I've mentioned the plague combo with relic many times in this thread as well as geoff and a few others.

[whiteshepherdman]

If you know after game 1 that they arn't running basics, and if you don't plan on playing more stp effects, why not switch swords for path and beat having to give them free life vs giving them nothing? I'd stp my own factory if i was really that desperate but do we really need less lands against tempo threshold? i think not...

[mossivo1986]

If you know after game 1 that they arn't running basics, and if you don't plan on playing more stp effects, why not switch swords for path and beat having to give them free life vs giving them nothing? I'd stp my own factory if i was really that desperate but do we really need less lands against tempo threshold? i think not...

Your last statement is confusing and potentially wrong.

If you know after game 1 that they are not running basic lands it should make 0 difference in your gameplan unless your gameplan is to hoze them in a more serious way then pathing their tarmogoyf/ possibly 1 clique or predator. Paths drawback has little focus in this matchup and honestly I think your exploiting the drawback way more then it really is in said matchup. Bottom line Landdrops and relic of progenitus dominate this matchup. Adding in plague is a cute trick and I think its funny and can work (but ive also seen it backfire.)

You never side out stp in the tempo thresh variant for that pure fact that you may actually need to stp your own factory as you said. Life gain can be quintisential if your original gameplan doesn't go along as necessary. So yes to answer your question sometimes tempo thresh revolves around sacrificing your mishra's to the greater good.

The great thing is that since most tempo thresh variants are 99.9% the same you can do all your counting with them.

[Citrus-God]

If you know after game 1 that they arn't running basics, and if you don't plan on playing more stp effects, why not switch swords for path and beat having to give them free life vs giving them nothing? I'd stp my own factory if i was really that desperate but do we really need less lands against tempo threshold? i think not...

You're going to have to have 7 Swords to Plowshares post board against Tempo Thresh. Especially if they board Spell Pierce against you. Boarding in cards like Plague and Relic can be alright, but definitely not reliable. Your only hope is to make plays where you can force Dazes and Spell Pierces out, as they have no card advantage. From there, you play Swords and Paths to keep the board clear of Tarmogoyfs. Mongeese are an issue, but you're going to have to make plays where you tap out for Vindicates so that you can force a card out of their hand and then proceed to read their hand for upcoming Turns. This is also why you also board in Preachers, because they can't board 4 REBs and 4 Spell Pierces against you without taking out removal. It's all about complicating the Tempo Thresh player and having that Tempo Thresh player make mistakes against you. 50% of the games I've won with Landstill is by either having the better deck or the opponent makes a mistake against me. Knowing this format and how just about every match up you play is around 50/50-60/40, you're going to need to learn how to have the psychological edge in all your match ups.

[Hanni]

I wouldn't bring in Path's vs Tempo Thresh. Goyf's not the problem here, Mongoose is. They have Wastelands for Factory and Stifle's for EE. Honestly, the only thing I board for this matchup is -2 O Ring, +2 Path. However, I am playing U/W Counterbalance Landstill...

4 StP, 3 WoG, 2 (O Ring MD, Path SB) has been enough removal for me. The only back and forth struggle with this matchup is simply the war of resources; ramping up lands before they push the final points through. Luckily, Mongoose tends to stay small for the first few turns of the game, while I develop my manabase. The best plan, as mentioned already, is to spin Top. Top makes sure I draw my basics (I run 7, so I consistently play around both Stifle and Waste when I have Top). The best way I've sealed the game in this matchup is to play turn 2 Top, turn 3 Counterbalance, and turn 4-5 WoG (2cc spell on top if possible, put there turn 3 for turn 4 WoG's, or of course a FoW in my hand).

My (Canadian) Tempo Thresh matchup is really good, I've yet to lose to it. I know I'll lose against it at somepoint (random manascrew from unlucky shuffling, etc), but my point is that the matchup overall is very good.

Oh, and this:

U/W Counterbalance Landstill

This message has been brough to you by the letter H.

[Citrus-God]

I wouldn't bring in Path's vs Tempo Thresh. Goyf's not the problem here, Mongoose is.

If Goyfs arent the problem here, then you have obviously never had your BSs and Standstills REBed while you want to take some control over the board. YOU NEED TO BRING PATHS IN. If you don't, a majority of your control cards are dedicated to Goyf. Your EEs will be spent on Goyfs, and that is a silly investment to make. Your WoGs will be spent on Goyfs, which is also silly. Your Vindicates will be spent on Goyfs (it should be target a land if your ever cast it, not when you have to respond). Still fucking silly.

Edit. Your problem is Mongoose, only after you deal with Goyf. Dealing with Goyf only becomes a problem when you use overcosted cards against it. Deal with Goyf using cheap efficiency and for the rest of the game, you only have to deal with Mongoose. That takes a lot of planning for it to work.


They have Wastelands for Factory and Stifle's for EE. Honestly, the only thing I board for this matchup is -2 O Ring, +2 Path. However, I am playing U/W Counterbalance Landstill...

So you do bring Paths in?


4 StP, 3 WoG, 2 (O Ring MD, Path SB) has been enough removal for me. The only back and forth struggle with this matchup is simply the war of resources; ramping up lands before they push the final points through. Luckily, Mongoose tends to stay small for the first few turns of the game, while I develop my manabase. The best plan, as mentioned already, is to spin Top. Top makes sure I draw my basics (I run 7, so I consistently play around both Stifle and Waste when I have Top). The best way I've sealed the game in this matchup is to play turn 2 Top, turn 3 Counterbalance, and turn 4-5 WoG (2cc spell on top if possible, put there turn 3 for turn 4 WoG's, or of course a FoW in my hand).

Top helps, but still, against a plethora of cheap disruption, you should still board Paths in. This way, you have some efficiency against that deck.


My (Canadian) Tempo Thresh matchup is really good, I've yet to lose to it. I know I'll lose against it at somepoint (random manascrew from unlucky shuffling, etc), but my point is that the matchup overall is very good.


Against bad players they must either keep bad hands or play mediocre-good hands poorly. It's overall good, by why make it more complicated? It's getting worse thanks to fucking Spell Pierce. Don't even suggest playing around it, because 2 mana open is fucking hard to do.

[Hanni]

I wouldn't bring in Path's vs Tempo Thresh. Goyf's not the problem here, Mongoose is.

I mistyped that. I meant as an additional removal spell, sorry. I bring them in vs Tempo Thresh in replacement for O Rings because there are no relevant artifacts/enchantments for O Ring to hit and PtE is more efficient. But I only do a minor 2 for 2 swap, and I see people suggesting adding an additional 3-4 PtE's... what are you dropping?


Top helps, but still, against a plethora of cheap disruption, you should still board Paths in. This way, you have some efficiency against that deck.

Yea, I bring in 2, to replace the slower O Rings.


Against bad players they must either keep bad hands or play mediocre-good hands poorly. It's overall good, by why make it more complicated? It's getting worse thanks to fucking Spell Pierce. Don't even suggest playing around it, because 2 mana open is fucking hard to do.

2 mana open is very difficult to do. They also run a very light threat base against a deck that runs a very heavy removal suite. Spell Pierce and other effects or not, this matchup is easy as long as you can stabilize your manabase. If they hit you with a few Stifles and Wastelands and your locked out of a color or stuck on 1-2 land, you're screwed even if you bring in PtE's.

Plus, they either don't always have the reactive spell available, or they tapped out to cast that Goose/Goyf/Ponder, whatever. When they don't have the answer, I resolve Counterbalance, and now they are screwed for the rest of the game. If they have a resolved threat in play, they have to hope they can kill me before I draw one of my answers, of which I run plenty, and plenty of ways to draw into them. If I answer the Goyf they tapped out for with an StP, I just locked them out of the game. Fewer lists these days are running the 1/1 bounce split, and even then, only 1 is a Wipe Away, and they only run cantrips, not tutors.

All I'm saying is that I've found it to be a good matchup for my build, I haven't tested the matchup with other various Landstill builds. I run 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top, so my early digging for lands is fantastic under manabase pressure. If they cannot apply manabase pressure, I simply run more powerful cards than they do, and I win. That's what I was getting at. In direct comparison from my list to others, aside from the 2c manabase vs others 3c manabases, CounterTop locks them out, so they cannot come back, and is resolvable during the early game if they spent their countermagic winning a counterwar over (my) StP vs their Goyf.

[Citrus-God]

Oh, it was a typo. Sorry bout that then.

Also, I would like to add that SDTs are the best cards you can have in this deck. Mana economy-wise, it's very spendy, but the quality in return is well worth it. Keep in mind, SDT can chain you into draw spells so that you always have a plan B when the first draw spell works bitter in your favor. I've been testing them for awhile, and it's well worth it.

[Atog]

Oh, it was a typo. Sorry bout that then.

Also, I would like to add that SDTs are the best cards you can have in this deck. Mana economy-wise, it's very spendy, but the quality in return is well worth it. Keep in mind, SDT can chain you into draw spells so that you always have a plan B when the first draw spell works bitter in your favor. I've been testing them for awhile, and it's well worth it.

So whats your list is looking like then with SDT? And sideboard?

[paK0]

Played this some time ago in a a small tournament:


4 Tundra
4 Mishras Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Brackmarsh
4 Island
3 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Standstill
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice


---------------

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Path to Exile
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Energy Flux
2 Oblivion Ring


Worked well, I placed second beating Storm two times, Kithkin and Affinity while loosing to Bant-Survival.

I'm testing right now what to change and I'm as far:

MD:
-1 Counterspell
+1 Spell Snare

SB:
- 1Energy Flux
-1 Path to Exile
+ 2 Spell Snare



Snare is soooo good against all the Survival running around here, so mb its a metachoice, but still I like it =).

[Hanni]

Hell yea dude, it makes me very happy to see you trying my list. I'm glad you did well, you should write up a tiny report or something. ;)

Oh, and wtf is Brackmarsh? Am I missing something...?

[whiteshepherdman]

I think he might have meant marsh flats

[LostButSeeking]

Snare is soooo good against all the Survival running around here, so mb its a metachoice, but still I like it =).

I play four maindeck. It's really, really good in every matchup i've ever played.

[Citrus-God]

So whats your list is looking like then with SDT? And sideboard?

Something along the lines of


// Mana 24
1 Eternal Dragon
2 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip


It's a pretty shitty list, but thanks to the fact that Top is so fast, I don't care if my 1st Deed gets Stifled. I can shuffle -> find another Deed/EE via Top.

[Atog]

Something along the lines of


// Mana 24
1 Eternal Dragon
2 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip


It's a pretty shitty list, but thanks to the fact that Top is so fast, I don't care if my 1st Deed gets Stifled. I can shuffle -> find another Deed/EE via Top.

Couple questions: Isn't city of brass unnecessary? And i think that will make too much dmg to you. And isn't 4th deed too much? You have top+fetches and other library manipulation so i think you should be fine with 3x deeds. Just a couple thoughts..

[Ectoplasm]

Something along the lines of


// Mana 24
1 Eternal Dragon
2 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip


It's a pretty shitty list, but thanks to the fact that Top is so fast, I don't care if my 1st Deed gets Stifled. I can shuffle -> find another Deed/EE via Top.

Holy shit that has to be one of the coolest lists I've ever seen :laugh: I'd never play this, but power to you for being cutting edge.
And to stay on-topic: Wouldn't like from the loam be a good card in here? It would make your deck pretty hard to kill, a bit like ITF but without the counterbalances and goyfs.

Hell, you might even try some etched oracle/stronghold action, if you really wanted to, but then you might as well build ITF so it wouldn't really be ontopic in here.

Edit: You could drop the FoFs for Intuition and own shit up.

[paK0]

OMG that list looks awesome =).


@Brackmarsch:
Yeah, it's Marsh Flats, I wrote down the german name by mistake =). I'll think about the report, problem is i only have a couple of notes and none on the starting hands^^. But still, maybe over the week when I get some more time.

[Tinefol]

Are you serious? This list features a horrible manabase along with different double nonblue costs

[from Cairo]

Something along the lines of


// Mana 24
1 Eternal Dragon
2 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip


The mana curve on this deck looks really rugged. Has it been playing out ok for you versus the faster decks in the format? I can totally see it destroying control mirrors and CB/T etc since it hits 4 mana and has a stupid amount of bombs to play (3 FoF, 2 Elspeth, 3 Decree); but versus faster decks are things like Pernicious Deed over Wrath of God or Firespout, and Counterspell over Spell Snare ever proving to be too slow.

Tinefol's point about the manabase seems somewhat valid as well, it seems like Merfolk, or Goblins or something could hit an opportune dual and set back a deck with an already mana hungry game plan.

[Citrus-God]

Are you serious? This list features a horrible manabase along with different double nonblue costs

He's right. That list is downright shitty against decks with mana denial. It's only a good list because SDT, 3 Standstills and 3 FoF. Again, it's a testing list.

The awful mana base can be held up well thanks to SDT, BS and Standstill, but it's still not a good idea to play this because of the presence of Tempo Thresh and Merfolk.

However, this list in the era of BHWC Landstill, this list is superior in every single aspect imaginable. Even with Elspeth being non-existence at the time, this list still beats the living piss out of everything.

@From Cairo: The mana base is actually really fucking sweet, it's getting a fetchland Stifled that makes me dislike this deck. Wastelands are fine, but Stifles are a bitch to handle.

The reason why I slowed my deck down was because once I have a stabilized mana base, I could care about having fast answers. I've reached my goal, and I can start casting my overcosted cards. One of the ways that helps me reach this goal is SDT. This is also why I don't run Spell Snare.

Against Zoo, it's a good pre board match up so far. I'm not sure about my post-board MU though.

Against Merfolk, it's only a problem if they run Stifle. If they don't, I beat the living piss out of them.

Tempo Thresh can be an issue though.

Deeds are slower than WoG, but it kills multiple birds with one stone. Why not?

Counterspell is just a better counter when it comes to dealing with randomness. Sometimes, Spell Snare doesn't hold up.

I beat the everloving piss out of Goblins with this list. They only run Ports and Wastes. That's it. I have SDT.

[mossivo1986]

so i havent had alot of testing against zoo and i'd like to focus more on it since ive got basicly everything else down to a science. heres the main questions.

1. if the counterbalance decks in the format get eaten by zoo, then how are landstill decks (us) going to beat zoo with less efficiency with counterbalance out of the board? keep in mind that said decks are also siding in semi valuable tempo answers in k grip and blast.

2. if cb is not the answer then is there a way outside of wish pulse, humility talk to greatly improve this match? would something along the lines as descendants of kamigawa do the trick? ( i dont think so but im attempting to find a more valuable tempo answer the current strategies.) thoughts on alternative.

for my final thoughts i have switched archtypes to white splash tempo thresh while the enviornment is sinply too fast for landstill to handle

i.e.
zoo,gobs,folk,ichorid,tempo thresh (spell pierce) its going to force landstill to adapt with old style play i believe with crucible in the main plus dragon to have its stability. with this adaption it should be brought up that we need a beatstick and as stp is seeing little to know play in the current meta then bs angel (type of creature) should be in consideration for a top contender.

[mossivo1986]

updated thoughts on a sample list:

4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
4 flooded
1 delta
1 flats
3 plains
3 island
1 dust bowl
1 ruins

4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 hunility
1 disk
1 path

3 bs
3 tfk (thirst)
3 top

4 force
3 snare
2 cs

2 decree
2 elspeth

2 wish
1 cow
1 e dragon

sb
1 pate
1 pulse
1 e tutor
1 path
1 blast
1 ray of dist
4 ep
3 cb
2 relic? bs angel? something sexy other then relic that hammers the aggro non stp matchups?

[GGoober]

Doesn't 6-7 StP MD solve the problem of fast aggro? And wish-> Pulse against non-discard decks?

The only real problems I have with Landstill is Merfolks and Deadguy/Eva if they draw the nuts Hymns. Merfolks is actually okay unless they chain Standstills. It's all about dealing with Lords.

Goblins seems fine as long as you mull to swords. Other than that, I really don't think Aggro has become any faster. The aggro lists that ARE faster are the new versions of Goyf Sligh running Goblin Guides, which are good for us except that they goldfish on turn 3 consistently now. I've been taking a twist and playing some Zoo variant I'm testing (4 Steppe Lynx, 4 Wild Nacatl, 3 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Goyf, 4 Pridemage) and the goldfish is turns 3-4. Lynx is a serious beater and I think these decks maybe more popular in the future and might put us on a much faster clock than before.

Running Fallout for a specific meta with Zoo today, I realized Fallout really hurts Merfolks. I think that if the meta becomes too aggro fast, then playing UWr is a better choice. Access to Fallout should give you an edge over Merfolks (and lists playing Kira which is a pain in the butt for Landstill against Lord of Atlantis). REB would also help against Goblins a ton, and matchups like Thresh, combo to some extent

[whiteshepherdman]

interesting update moss, I run 1 baneslayer for my burn/ zoo matchups but for lifegain I've also been experimenting with ivory tower just for fun.

[mossivo1986]

i'd rather run firespout and from enough excessive testing with the card i can personally tell you its a waste of time trying to splash red. rockout and i as well as a variety of players tried doing it and the bottom line is that you mine as well play
1. ultimate walker
2. ugr dreadstill (outdated)

bottom line red should stopped being looked at until wotc actually prints a red spell that can handle goyf or a card that has extreme synergy with the playstyle of this archtype (that doesnt cost 4+ mana,)

now in regards to zoo you dont care about the creature heavy hands. you care about the perfect split hands of 50% efficient creatures and 50% burn. that usually takes them all the way. the problem is that wish pulse is about 1/2 a turn slow in persuing their tempo. so my suggestion is to change said strategy from a reactive to a proactive. im wondering if anyone has any thoughts on answers.

[gustha]

I personally don't know why you are all worried by the supposed increased speed of the meta. Landstill is, and has always been, a late game control deck. I don't think it is outdated or should be substituted by countertop: landstill is the one of the best decks at beating aggro since its begginings (that's the MWC soul of the deck). Ofc, if you worry about being submerged by zoo and burn and dredge and ant, don't play landstill. Or rather, as DIF once said, play something with counterbalance top and tarmogoyf: the other 30 or so cards doesn't matter. Speaking of aggro, the increased speed means to me that EE is still one of the most valuable cards in the deck, and that wrath of god should be left aside for a period. I don't think red is not a viable option: on the contrary, I think the red splash is really great against a fast aggro meta, and it is not necessary to run ultimate walker. Here's what I player yesterday (55 people, everybody expected a lot more, sick!), a list tuned for a very aggressive meta, with a sensible portion of aggrocontrol. It ended up that I faced rock 2 times, 1 merfolk, 1 elves, 1 dredge and a combo dek with cb top dread stifle hec dephts all in once. Never faced one of the gobbos in the room. :frown: Fuck metagaming! I finished 4-2 losing to dredge and the lucky badass piloting combo (land mox diamond counterbalance, land top dread stifle, draw swap top cast hexmage and remove counters from my EE@1!:eek: :eek: :eek: )

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [ZEN] Mountain
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
3 [SHM] Firespout
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [EX] Forbid
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FNM] Capsize

Things I consider to change:
-1 island for the 3rd volcanic.
-1 forbid for a MD capsize. That card saved my life more than once
-MUST find a room for crucible somewhere, or the 4th relic/reb

This configuration, or something similar, basically thrashes aggrodecks. Postsb, against zoo/canadian/the like, basically take cb out as soon as possibile, and have a firespout ready.

Generally speaking, MD path to exile instead of helixes is generally more good. Post sb we have LOTS of removal against aggro decks, and basically we tear every merfolk decks on the way. 2 thumbs up for jace, whose cc3 saved my ass with counterbalance against rock. Thumbs down for shackles, didn't shine yesterday.

@baneslayer angel: please... do not. Test and run 3 kitchen finks. I promise you won't regret.
-survives wrath and EE
-CIP lifegain, solid body and solid wall, gets rid of mongoose + lifegain and still have a wall, kills 2 mishra's under standstill when defending, one when attacking (acts as wasteland)
-against ant, there's some lifegain and a solid beater to diminish the power of nausea and tendrils in a single spell
-against burn, you don't know how good is flying finks... burn players are either forced to keep 3 dmg/turn or heading burn spells @him (1 less to you, tempo loss) + lifegain.

Or either, run cb top and helixes.

[jazzykat]

@Gustha, that is a fantastic looking list. This is like walk all over someone's facestill.

Have you considered fire/ice or lightning bolt for the paths?
Do you miss Decree of Justice?

[gustha]

Thanks. That costed me a week of headhace to tune it, and still has some problems in the draw package (seriously!:eek: ). Jace has been amazing all the time.

F/i and lightning bolt are both subpar cards if compared to path. F/i is a tempo strategy we do not need (3 firespout is enough to deal with critters/confidant, etc.), and I don't want to play the burn role, in fact I left the helixes in the sb. Preside, when I don't know if I'm to face a 12/12 or a 2/1, I want a definitive and global answer, path is just THAT better.

If i missed decree? I missed it. Really, really missed it. A singleton decree would've been far better than shackles yesterday. But I expected lots of merfolks and bant (didn't face one, ofc), so I chose shacklles instead (basically, merfolk scoops to shackles after a wrath effect). I really missed decree and I really missed crucible (I would've played 3 mishra 2 wasteland if I found room for crucible MD), or a 2nd ajani. And I missed MM, the red version has nearly autoloss from dredge...(if piloted by a skilled/lucky player). But I think that's mainly because I tuned the list more vs aggro and the meta unexpectingly was dominated by rock (so less aggroish and more controllish). Truth is, there were lots of gobbos, merfolks, canadian, zoo's, so I apparently metagamed correctly :laugh: (my pairings sucked, that's all!).

[LostButSeeking]

so I apparently metagamed correctly :laugh: (my pairings sucked, that's all!).

Yeah, I hate that a lot. Answer decks packing the right answers against the wrong questions. Ugh.

[from Cairo]

I really like your list Gustha. Kind of a Landstill/Ultimate Walker/Speedstill hybrid. But the removal package seems pretty optimal: Firespout and EE wreck early drops and STP and PTE pick off the stray Goyfs.

I personally would probably run Crucible of Worlds in the Vedalken Shackles slot, as you mention it opens up the 3 Factory 2 Wasteland configuration that seems better than 4 Factory 1 Dustbowl.

How is Forbid? I've seen it run in Ultimate Walker, and with Jace, Standstill and Crucible there's alot of different permanents that can generate you enough card advantage to soft lock. Or within reason anyway, like your removal and Walkers and stuff can handle guys and Forbid with buyback can loom over covering anything that would be game wrecking. In principle it has potential, does it play out that well?

[Reagens]

@moss

Concerning Zoo I have both experimented with pulse and with Ajani Gold-mane.

I think the planeswalker does it for me. I only run 2 but that seems to be enough against the current Zoo decks.
When I first started testing it was against a Zoo deck that had very few creatures and a whole lot of burn. In that case Ajani was not good enough (too slow, too little effect on the game), but with the current versions not even main-decking price of progress anymore I think Ajani is your best answer. Pity for you it doesn't fit ideally with a wish still build.
The reason why I think it's better by the way is that it needs a 1-time investment only and gains you one of the following:

1) 2 life + attack from goyf diverted
2) 2 life + 2 burn spells diverted

Which is huge card advantage. And if you get them to fail to kill your ajani after 1 turn their burn gets less and less useful while you find answers asap for their critters.
Also keep into account that most players have some kind of fear of a 10/10 avatar token as a blocker...

Consider it, test it, and if it doesn't work out for you please share your findings :)


If Zoo is such a big metagame concern I'd consider running 2 Ajani and 1 pulse.

[gustha]

I really like your list Gustha. Kind of a Landstill/Ultimate Walker/Speedstill hybrid. But the removal package seems pretty optimal: Firespout and EE wreck early drops and STP and PTE pick off the stray Goyfs.

I personally would probably run Crucible of Worlds in the Vedalken Shackles slot, as you mention it opens up the 3 Factory 2 Wasteland configuration that seems better than 4 Factory 1 Dustbowl.

How is Forbid? I've seen it run in Ultimate Walker, and with Jace, Standstill and Crucible there's alot of different permanents that can generate you enough card advantage to soft lock. Or within reason anyway, like your removal and Walkers and stuff can handle guys and Forbid with buyback can loom over covering anything that would be game wrecking. In principle it has potential, does it play out that well?Truth be told, it was meh all the tournament. In testing it proved great, but I've seen it only in 2 games: once I cast it with buyback than pitched immediately to force, the second time I pitched it to force. Not so exciting. I thik it has potential in a control-oriented meta, because g1 you have plenty of dead cards to get rid of, but 1 is not the right number, you need at least 2. Sick, with 2 forbid you need 1-2 crucible, and well, I don't have room for crucible. So for the moment, I promoted capsize MD in the room of forbid and put crucible in the free sb slot. Other options was to go -1 jace -1 shackles +1 forbid +1 crucible, but I wasn't fond of this choice. Forbid has great potential as far as I see it, but numbers are against it.

Crucible in the shackles slot: I think crucible is a sb card with that manabase, and while crucible acts for me as a tool, shackles occupies a removal/wincon slot. Atm, I'll stick to shackles, though I considered and still I'm considering viable the switch you propose. Agains, the 3/2 or 4/1 split between manlands/waste effect depends on the meta. Dust bowl can be as wrecking as recurring wastelands, especially with ajani's ultimate. (Resolve armageddon, land dust bowl, and see your opponents concede.)

I appreciate you like my list and my efforts to tune it, and I have to give credit to both klaus and my friend Liv for all the suggestions.

[Tacosnape]

This list might be so off the wall it needs its own thread, but I've altered the way my old 4C Landstill used to work in an effort to adjust Landstill to the following problems.

1. Struggling to keep the board clear until you get two mana to drop a Standstill.
2. Aether Vial being annoying.
3. Not being able to stop card advantage or other problems generated by graveyard-based strategies.

So now I'm running:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Relic of Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
4 Engineered Explosives

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus

The list eschews cute stuff in favor of consistency, speed, and a ton of card advantage.

[rockout]

Holy man lands batman. How has your list helped with your 3 problems of landstill? Your list just looks like fish without creatures and running planeswalkers instead.

[ultimoman]

Thanks. That costed me a week of headhace to tune it, and still has some problems in the draw package (seriously!:eek: ). Jace has been amazing all the time.


Is Jace good for you because of Forbid or has he been good anyway? I've been considering using him again, I constantly switch between 1 Jace and 1 Fact and I can't decide which I prefer more. Its great having an alternate win con in Jace as well, but he can be hard to protect and isn't an instant.

To Tacosnape:
Thats an interesting build but I see no way for you to deal with a Progenitus once its out or an Inkwell Leviathan as well. Progenitus has been popping up more and more and the Inkwell isn't too common but its being used in Reanimator now. Some sweepers beside E.E. could be a good idea.

[kabal]

I don't know if you guys have seen this list and wondering what your thoughts were?



Alternate Universes Legacy Showdown
Bluebell, PA, USA
7 Nov 2009
Players: 40

1st place > Josh Potucek - UWG Goyf/Landstill

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Standstill
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Crucible of Worlds

1 Savannah
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wasteland
2 Wrath of God
3 Ethersworn Canonist

[Tinefol]

The list eschews cute stuff in favor of consistency, speed, and a ton of card advantage.

And I might just add "...and scoops to a resolved Natural Order". But more to the point, I'll try to explain what I feel about current trends in Landstill development. Although I'm not posting much, I'm tinkering with different Landstill (and Ultimate Walker for that matter) builds for months and months. Even though I hardly qualify for a Landstill guru, I think my opinion has some weight.

Without luxury of Pernicious Deed (as in 4c build) its a lot harder to find proper balance between what you devote for early game survival and what's supposed to be your late game inevitability. Shift it one side and you lose to decks with recursion/engine, shift it to another and you're victim of tempo strategies.

Starting from early game, lets consider what tools do we have for the problems that arise there. Forgive my captain-obviousness, but its fundamental and really deserves a thorough analysis.

* The most troublesome early play from opponent is Vial that greatly invalidates counterspells and planeswalkers, shuts off standstills (and that's nearly half of the spells this deck runs!) and gives your opponents a massive tempo boost. How can one generally deal with Vial?

1)FoW it. Consider that this move actually turns opponent's card disadvantage from Vial into card advantage. They don't lose a single threat (Vial doesn't actually kill you) and you lose an answer along with another card. Things would get really horrible if FoW gets Daze'd.
2)Destroy it with Explosives. I'd say this is only good if you manage to make it 2 for 1 or at least cast it for 1 preemptively. Otherwise, they don't lose a threat, you lose the answer that is able to provide card advantage.
3)Ignore it – deal with consequences. If you don't have a FoW, shuffle away the now bad cards with brainstorm and try to survive the onslaught.

The indirect ways:
1) Run less cards affected by Vial. I don't like my main source of card advantage (Standstill) turned into nothing. That's the main reason I'm considering to run Ancestral Vision instead. While it has its drawbacks, it doesn't sit in your hand useless like Standstill in unfavorable situations. I'm not going to turn this into Ultimate Walker holywar, so no pros/cons and thorough comparisons.
2) Run more answers to Vial. 4 Explosives, ok. Vindicate, Pithing Needle? Vindicate is okay, but its still 1 on 1 and a bit too slow (and Daze'able). Needle is fine as S/B option, but really is a bad topdeck.
3) Invalidate their whole creature strategy. More to the point further.

* Duress and Thoughtseize. Not much you can do, except hiding stuff with Brainstorm. Its still 1 to 1, so live with it.

* Next comes the range of troublesome and very troublesome 2cc non-creature spells: Hymn to Tourach, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Sinkhole, Chalice at 1, Winter Orb, Argothian Enchantress (its creature, ok), etc where you can't Counterspell them because you are on the draw and don't have FoW. So, what do we have there in general?

1) 4 Spell Snare. Seriously, how can one run less than 4, when some things from the above list can totally wreck you? Not to mention it does hit troublesome creatures as well? Yes it sucks compared to Counterspell in the late game, but its the price that has to be paid.
2) Deal with them? Explosives hit the most things from the list, but we do already run them. Other than that – not much. Needle and Vindicate, right? Maybe Wish?

* Standstill (and manlands + wasteland) is another 2cc spell deserves a special mention, because its run in our deck too. But there are decks that are better equipped to play under it – namely Merfolk and Goblins. Not considering Vial there – the best option is to run almost as much Wastelands+manlands as they do, be it only manlands or some split with Wasteland. And consider Decree which might turn the stall in your favor and is massive bomb late game. And once again consider dropping your own standstills in the favor of the spell that should not be mentioned.

* Our next problem is Natural Order into Progenitus. Most people run this along with countermagic or on top of Survival shells. You can counter this of course, because it doesn't come online earlier than turn3, but not always. The deck must have the tools to deal with a thing that already hit the board.

* So there's a broad range of swarm strategies. While 8 swords might work where creatures are few (like against Team America), I probably wouldn't run 8 StPs even if I was allowed to by the rules. This is still 1 for 1 exchange and they run way more creatures than you run swords. Sweepers are necessary for card advantage. EE is a bad sweeper past 2cc. So there are options of 'soft' sweepers like Pyroclasm or Firespout or hard ones, like Wrath of God or Nevynirral's Disk. Another approach is Humility, which is not really a sweeper, but turns their whole strategy into crap. And turns Survival and Vial into crap too. Personally I prefer Wrath and Humility, because they actually hit the already mentioned Progenitus.

* Graveyard based strategies – adjust the sideboard.

As for late game, I think its dangerous to go beyond 8 4cc spells, as these tend to clunk your hand. Also – try don't run singletons unless they fill the same slot as a card that's already is in the multiples. Singletons simply aren't going to work. I'm more and more into Geoff's (konsultant) 'redundancy' approach.

So, there are two lists to throw in:

1) Classic UWb

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland


// Spells
3 Counterspell
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Standstill / Ancestral Vision
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren
1 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Justice

2) UWr Walkerstill:

// Lands
4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
2 Plains (4)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Plateau

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace Beleren
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Standstill/Ancestral Vision
2 Wrath of God
3 Counterspell
2 Humility
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fire/Ice

[gustha]

Your last list (UWr) seems very interesting, really. You should consider to throw a crucible somewhere and maybe to up the count of elspeth to 3, but I find it really solid. And, here, I love Fire/ice: though i'm a fan of path to exile (removing is better than simply destroying), I can see it logically fit when you have 4EE to get rid of all non-tombstalker menaces. Plus it's goo in the early game to get rid of critters. Sick it does nothing or nearly so against zoo.
I love the work, though I'd have to dismiss sb counterbalance I think. Would you mind sending me a PM with your considerations on that list? Tx.

A possibile side?!? (with MD crucible)
1 Jace Beleren
3 REB
4 relic
3 lifegainer (ajani/pulse/cop:red/finks)
4 meddling mage

EDIT @ultimoman: I've almost never seen forbid. jace is good by it's own, and it's great against tempo.decks.

[Tinefol]

I did consider Crucible, I've even ran it as 2-of. What I felt about it, is that it doesn't do anything useful, doesn't impact the game stongly enough. And as 1-of its too random. I don't like singletons.

[Illissius]

Is Standstill better than Sensei's Divining Top?

[ultimoman]

@Gustha: Indeed, I agree. In the control matchup hes a bomb but overall with Zoo so popular as well as a ton of other explosive decks, I find that Jace is too hard to protect to make him worth it.

@Illisius: Thats difficult to say because they both have different functions and are used for different reasons. They're both good and it depends on the situation.

On another note: I'm actually not liking Spell Snare as much as I used to, its just not getting as many targets as it once did. Yeah it can still counter dangerous creatures but I usually just try to kill them with Swords or E.E. Am I the only one not finding it as useful as we once did?

[LostButSeeking]

Is Standstill better than Sensei's Divining Top?

That's like asking if oranges are better than apples. They are different. Standstill has specific requirements, but if you build your deck right can lead to a lot of card advantage. SDT has fewer requirements, doesn't lead to card advantage, but can lead to a lot of card quality advantage if you are consistently inputting mana. They're both good.

EDIT:


On another note: I'm actually not liking Spell Snare as much as I used to, its just not getting as many targets as it once did. Yeah it can still counter dangerous creatures but I usually just try to kill them with Swords or E.E. Am I the only one not finding it as useful as we once did?

Yes.

[gustha]

I did consider Crucible, I've even ran it as 2-of. What I felt about it, is that it doesn't do anything useful, doesn't impact the game stongly enough. And as 1-of its too random. I don't like singletons.

That's mainly because you cut academy ruins, which I won't ever cut from my lists... recurring EE/top/crucible is too strong not to be run, even with 4 EE. I can't see why crucible won't impact the game. first you can consider forbid in place of counterspell (which would be great), and then, well, ajani vengeant + fire/ice + wasteland really opens a way for a mana denial plan... Generally speaking, if you don't mean to recurr anything (no ruins, no recurring wasteland), crucible is indeed hardly needed.

Still, send me that PM with your considerations on the list, I'd be glad to hear them :)

[Tacosnape]

And I might just add "...and scoops to a resolved Natural Order".

Scoops to a resolved Armageddon too. What's your point? Natural Order doesn't show up as often as the decks this is tuned to beat, and I've still got plenty of answers to it. Force of Will, Counterspell, and Meddling Mage all answer this, as do my capacity to simply keep the board completely clear of green creatures with STP, Path, and EE (More likely against Bant than Elves.) Additionally, boarding Wrath if I felt it necessary would be quite easy.



Without luxury of Pernicious Deed (as in 4c build) its a lot harder to find proper balance between what you devote for early game survival and what's supposed to be your late game inevitability. Shift it one side and you lose to decks with recursion/engine, shift it to another and you're victim of tempo strategies.

I'd argue mine's the strongest of both worlds. My early game survival is fantastic with 8 1-white removal spells, Forces, Counters, Snares, and Explosives. My lategame is fantastic because due to the tempo of my removal, I can abuse Standstill and Jace, which are the strongest card drawers in the format. I also have Elspeths. What I lack in bombs like Humility and Wrath and Decree and whatnot, I make up for in how consistently my card advantage can shine through. STP and Path very often allow a turn two Standstill, and EE at 1 can handle Vials before they get out of control.



* The most troublesome early play from opponent is Vial that greatly invalidates counterspells and planeswalkers, shuts off standstills (and that's nearly half of the spells this deck runs!) and gives your opponents a massive tempo boost. How can one generally deal with Vial?

1)FoW it. Consider that this move actually turns opponent's card disadvantage from Vial into card advantage. They don't lose a single threat (Vial doesn't actually kill you) and you lose an answer along with another card. Things would get really horrible if FoW gets Daze'd.
2)Destroy it with Explosives. I'd say this is only good if you manage to make it 2 for 1 or at least cast it for 1 preemptively. Otherwise, they don't lose a threat, you lose the answer that is able to provide card advantage.
3)Ignore it – deal with consequences. If you don't have a FoW, shuffle away the now bad cards with brainstorm and try to survive the onslaught.



Direct 1&2: I have 4 Forces, 4 Explosives. I also board Pithing Needles for Vial, Wasteland, Survival, Top, etc. And Seal of Cleansing. And spending EE on a Vial isn't a bad thing if it's enabling a Standstill in the process.
Direct 3: I have 8 removals and 7 draw spells that Vial doesn't nerf to stall for time. Not the best plan ever, but hey.




* Next comes the range of troublesome and very troublesome 2cc non-creature spells: Hymn to Tourach, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Sinkhole, Chalice at 1, Winter Orb, Argothian Enchantress (its creature, ok), etc where you can't Counterspell them because you are on the draw and don't have FoW. So, what do we have there in general?

1) 4 Spell Snare. Seriously, how can one run less than 4, when some things from the above list can totally wreck you? Not to mention it does hit troublesome creatures as well? Yes it sucks compared to Counterspell in the late game, but its the price that has to be paid.
2) Deal with them? Explosives hit the most things from the list, but we do already run them. Other than that – not much. Needle and Vindicate, right? Maybe Wish?


Addressing all these cards individually:
1. Hymn. I run Brainstorm, Counter, 2 Snare, Force, and more draw spells than their discard can wreck.
2. Survival of the Fittest. This is rarely run, and I run Snare, Counter, Force, EE, and Relic of Progenitus, which is invariably good against non crazy-elf Survival.
3. Counterbalance. 4 EE >> Counterbalance. Also, Force, 2 Snare, Counterspell, etc. Also, Elspeth.
4. Sinkhole. Oh noes. Not teh Siknhole. Force, Counter, Snare, drawing more land off my ridiculous draw engines, and nobody runs this.
5. Force, Snare, and 4 maindeck EE, which is fantastic against Chalice, especially when it 2-for-1's Moxes.
6. Winter Orb. Do people run this?
7. Argothian Enchantress. I actually do face this. 4 Maindeck EE and ten counters dedicated to stopping no card but this and Enchantress's presence. Plus Relic for Replenish.

As for Snare, no, the price doesn't have to be paid. Not in this build. Counterspell's better in the long game. Snare's nice, but I don't have to have a ton of them to survive.



The deck must have the tools to deal with a thing that already hit the board.

Why?


* So there's a broad range of swarm strategies. While 8 swords might work where creatures are few (like against Team America), I probably wouldn't run 8 StPs even if I was allowed to by the rules. This is still 1 for 1 exchange and they run way more creatures than you run swords. Sweepers are necessary for card advantage. EE is a bad sweeper past 2cc. So there are options of 'soft' sweepers like Pyroclasm or Firespout or hard ones, like Wrath of God or Nevynirral's Disk. Another approach is Humility, which is not really a sweeper, but turns their whole strategy into crap. And turns Survival and Vial into crap too. Personally I prefer Wrath and Humility, because they actually hit the already mentioned Progenitus.

Alright, this is somewhat valid. So I'll add Wraths to the board if I need them.

[Tinefol]

Scoops to a resolved Armageddon too. What's your point? Natural Order doesn't show up as often as the decks this is tuned to beat, and I've still got plenty of answers to it. Force of Will, Counterspell, and Meddling Mage all answer this, as do my capacity to simply keep the board completely clear of green creatures with STP, Path, and EE (More likely against Bant than Elves.) Additionally, boarding Wrath if I felt it necessary would be quite easy.

Where I play, Natural Order is a serious contender and is played quite frequently, so I have to keep it in mind, when constructing the deck. I want to win those preboard. What I don't like about Path, or even StP is that casting it on Llanowar Elves, Hierarch, Goblin Matron, or Spellstutter Sprite (duh!) feels like a very weak move. Especially if its turn 4 or a-like, and you don't have a Standstill to compensate. For all you know, they might just drop a Goyf or RWM after that. And Elves do have a lot of disposable creatures.


I'd argue mine's the strongest of both worlds. My early game survival is fantastic with 8 1-white removal spells, Forces, Counters, Snares, and Explosives.

As I said, the problem there is not with creatures, but with other troublesome spells. I'm rarely having problems with creatures, unless they stick these spells.


And spending EE on a Vial isn't a bad thing if it's enabling a Standstill in the process.

The problem there is that Merfolk (and modern Goblins) have a fine game under Standstill. They often do run 4/4 split of Vault/Wasteland, so dropping Standstill there is like gambling and is going to backfire sometimes.


2. Survival of the Fittest. This is rarely run, and I run Snare, Counter, Force, EE, and Relic of Progenitus, which is invariably good against non crazy-elf Survival.

Perhaps rarely for you. but clearly not for me. I'm facing Survival decks every tournament, sometimes even more than once. Elves are tricky, because they're able to explode through Order, Survival (with infinite combo), and just with lords. Things get even tricker after SB, where they bring Tsunami (o god) and Shusher in.


Counterbalance. 4 EE >> Counterbalance. Also, Force, 2 Snare, Counterspell, etc. Also, Elspeth.

No, not really. EE >> Counterbalance only if you have a metric fuckton of mana. You don't really cast it for 2, because of Snare and lots of 2-drops they have, its still unsafe for 3 (they play more and more 3cc spells), and you still have to think of Daze. So you need like 4-5 mana and at least a turn to reliably get rid of it. And if they manage to counter your EE, you're in trouble, because 90% of your deck suddenly stops working. Especially those StPs and Paths.


As for Snare, no, the price doesn't have to be paid. Not in this build. Counterspell's better in the long game. Snare's nice, but I don't have to have a ton of them to survive.

Well, that's my point, I don't think 2 Snares is enough. Survival, Natural Order and CB are very present in my meta, and indeed what I also mentioned is of a less concern. And these matches are exactly where 8 swords are hardly good and Humility and Snare are awesome. I'd prefer some sweepers against Goblins too.


Why?

Because Progenitus is 2 turn clock that can happen out of nowhere? I don't like losing to it...


PS. Why Seal and not Disenchant?

[Tacosnape]

@Tinefol: It sounds like our differences of opinion are strictly metagame based. I don't see all that much Survival, I don't see all that much Natural Order, and I don't see Goblins running anything other than the four Wastelands.

Assuming I have absolutely no intention of running Humility (And I don't), what's your recommendation to deal with things like NO and Tribal decks? Wrath?

As for Seal versus Disenchant, I dunno. Disenchant might be the better option in a reactive deck. I'm generally a fan of Seal because on the play it comes down before both Standstill and Counterbalance, but Disenchant might be the better choice here. Hadn't given it much thought.

[Tinefol]

Why do you dislike Humility?

Wrath deals with Progenitus fine, is good vs Elves, Survival, random shit like WW but the most popular tribals... It seldom workds against Merfolk for obvious reasons. Its okay against Goblins, but doesn't save you from this scenario: Wrath the board, they cast warchief or chieftain and something else and bash in for 4-5 (at least). Things are even worse, if they have a Mutavault. Or sucks against Ringleader they've been holding. I think you need Humility or Plague here, or better yet both to have a reasonable upperhand.

[Mark Sun]

Why do you dislike Humility?

Wrath deals with Progenitus fine, is good vs Elves, Survival, random shit like WW but the most popular tribals... It seldom workds against Merfolk for obvious reasons. Its okay against Goblins, but doesn't save you from this scenario: Wrath the board, they cast warchief or chieftain and something else and bash in for 4-5 (at least). Things are even worse, if they have a Mutavault. Or sucks against Ringleader they've been holding. I think you need Humility or Plague here, or better yet both to have a reasonable upperhand.

I tend to agree with Tinefol's assessment on Goblins. Gotta have a Humility, you can't afford to trade removal spells when they just refill their hand, and my list at least runs only 7 counters (4 of which are FoW, duh, that might require an additional CS to be pitched). Matrons/Ringleaders look lonely as Mon's Goblin Raiders on the board.

[Citrus-God]

Where I play, Natural Order is a serious contender and is played quite frequently, so I have to keep it in mind, when constructing the deck. I want to win those preboard. What I don't like about Path, or even StP is that casting it on Llanowar Elves, Hierarch, Goblin Matron, or Spellstutter Sprite (duh!) feels like a very weak move. Especially if its turn 4 or a-like, and you don't have a Standstill to compensate. For all you know, they might just drop a Goyf or RWM after that. And Elves do have a lot of disposable creatures.

Are you forgetting that Landstill is a metagame deck? Until the end of time, there will never be such a thing as an optimal Landstill deck, because reactive decks will always respond to the meta around it, not tune itself to goldfish on Turn 2.


As I said, the problem there is not with creatures, but with other troublesome spells. I'm rarely having problems with creatures, unless they stick these spells.

Maybe it's because you run Spell Snare and not Counterspell? If you want to deal with randomness, Counterspell is probably a lot better at countering a 4c card compared to that of Spell Snare.


The problem there is that Merfolk (and modern Goblins) have a fine game under Standstill. They often do run 4/4 split of Vault/Wasteland, so dropping Standstill there is like gambling and is going to backfire sometimes.

Are you not running Wastelands and Factories yourself? Are you also forgetting that one Factory on the table can block 2+ Mutavaults? Are you also forgetting that you also run Decree of Justice?



Perhaps rarely for you. but clearly not for me. I'm facing Survival decks every tournament, sometimes even more than once. Elves are tricky, because they're able to explode through Order, Survival (with infinite combo), and just with lords. Things get even tricker after SB, where they bring Tsunami (o god) and Shusher in.

You should be playing with Humilities maindeck. Elves doesn't run Krosan Grips maindeck, so you can easily run Humility. And if Elves ever board Grips against you, not only will their lack of library manipulation hinder them of finding Grip, they have to deal with the Engineered Plagues you boarded in.


No, not really. EE >> Counterbalance only if you have a metric fuckton of mana. You don't really cast it for 2, because of Snare and lots of 2-drops they have, its still unsafe for 3 (they play more and more 3cc spells), and you still have to think of Daze. So you need like 4-5 mana and at least a turn to reliably get rid of it. And if they manage to counter your EE, you're in trouble, because 90% of your deck suddenly stops working. Especially those StPs and Paths.

Part of the reason why Landstill is a functioning deck is because of the overcosted cards and bombs. This quote makes sense.


Well, that's my point, I don't think 2 Snares is enough. Survival, Natural Order and CB are very present in my meta, and indeed what I also mentioned is of a less concern. And these matches are exactly where 8 swords are hardly good and Humility and Snare are awesome. I'd prefer some sweepers against Goblins too.

Why don't you just run 3 Snares, 3 CS and 4 FoW? I've been doing that for the longest time now.


Because Progenitus is 2 turn clock that can happen out of nowhere? I don't like losing to it...

This seldom happens often. In fact, if I face this situation more, I'd be happy with adjusting my deck to deal with it, but I don't. Having this happening to you is like playing against Ichorid at a tournament.

[Tinefol]

As you may have noticed, I do run 3 Counterspell and 4 Snare. Been running 3/3, and it felt like not enough. And I do run Humility maindeck.

As for "this seldom happens often" - this happens far more often for me, than Ichorid, which basically nobody plays around :)

[Citrus-God]

As you may have noticed, I do run 3 Counterspell and 4 Snare. Been running 3/3, and it felt like not enough. And I do run Humility maindeck.

I retract my statement. :)


As for "this seldom happens often" - this happens far more often for me, than Ichorid, which basically nobody plays around :)

Hey man, you should just board Perishes in. You not only answer progenitus, but the entire race of lame green creatures you have to deal with. :)

[mossivo1986]

Newer list:

Lands: 23 +1 dragon
4 flooded
1 delta
1 marsh
4 tundra
1 scrub
1 sea
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra's
1 dustbowl
1 ruins

1 dragon

Permission: 10 (Standard)
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

(Snare is too narrow in the current meta to suffice it to be a 4 of. Counterspell has become slightly better in my opinion. Thus the standard is better to me again.)

draw: 9
3 standstill
3 top
3 brainstorm (I want 4, but I have to reconfigure my argument.)

removal: 10 (Standard for wish still)
4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility

Win conditions: 4
2 elspeth
2 decree

utility:
2 wish
1 disk
1 cow

sb:
1 rod
1 pulse
1 pate
1 e tutor
1 beb
2 path
4 e.p.
3 counterbalance
1 relic of progenitus

I think the counterbalance relic slot needs to be solidified, and I think baneslayer could have a place because of the protection pieces

[rsaunder]

Crucible MB without wastes? Sounds lackluster.

[Citrus-God]

Crucible MB without wastes? Sounds lackluster.

It sorta makes sense. He has Dust Bowl, imo, not really enough to justify it, but I think his primary plan with CoW is to use it as more of a Sacred Ground/mana stabilizer sort of card rather than a win condition (recurring Factories isnt as effective as a win condition compared to the Wasteland lock).

[mossivo1986]

correct. i dont appreciate wasteland as others do in this archtype. the idea of running wasteland as a 3 of (ive tested 2 and its disgusting) is bad because i deffinately have 0 interest in vindicate. thus im not looking to wastelock opponents and while i can agree that cow is better with wasteland i have to express the reasoning behind cow is that i was having issues with color efficiencys as ive been having for a while. its odd because i have a damn good manabase (probobly one of the most color consistent in the thread) i may end up cutting cow or dragon as 24 is just fine and honestly with top this shouldnt be happening. but following old logic 7 shuffles with an enabler (top) should be perfect. plus e dragon against mana denial is nuts as citrus pointed out.

also note that i cut doj for cow. i didnt want to but this basicly enables larger doj token crunches then im used to. and also a stronger inevitability for the lock (elspeth disk protected by cow and ruins.) im happy for now.

[Jak]

I've been playing Bant Survival for a while and it has caused me to take a break fromt he game. Playing the same deck against mostly the same deck for weeks straight gets a little tiresome. So, I need something different and something I have always loved is control, mostly Landstill. A deck that excels in the late game and has tools to fight many different decks. I hate just not having a shot against a particular deck.

I know the most common version is UWb and for good reason. Tribal is a force and Plague is a good way to handle. However, I really dislike Wasteland in Landstill. The tempo just can't be taken advantage in a control deck. The only reason to play Wasteland is to hit things like opposing man lands ie Mutavault or other Factories. I don't think that justifies it. Instead, I wanted to fill the slot of Wasteland with Nantuko Monastery, a card that pretty much everyone played a while back but has since been left behind. This basically means I am splashing green. Is it better than splashing black? In all honesty, I don't think it matters much. Plague is mediocre against most tribals since now all of them are playing 4-12 pump lords. Extripate is a great wish target, but there is other GY hate out there. Vindicate is a card that will be missed, but Cunning Wish can offer the same kind of versatility.

So, here is the unchiseled list. 64 cards of awesome (my opinion, probably not yours :smile: ). I want the build to have answers to the most common things faced in Legacy while still having the raw power Landstill is supposed to have.

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
2 Plains

2 Elspeth
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

SB
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
1 Hydroblast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Wing Shards

Of course it needs to be cut down at least 3 cards, but since I haven't been able to test as much as I have liked, it feels stupid to already picking things apart anymore.

I think most of the card choices are self explanatory, but there are a few that might need them.

Cunning Wish is the versatility slot that I love. Bomb late game, can grab cheaper answers early, can be CA, removal, a counter, etc. It also grabs Pulse which IMO is huge in today's metagame.

I hate Humility - or I did. I used to play it in Wombat for the longest time since it was such a bomb, but time after time seeing it get destroyed via Grip or B Wish --> Hull Breach, etc so that the opponent could swing in for lethal. However, I am a better player now. It is a bomb preboard, but needs to be taken out postboard. It just destroys Survival, Zoo, Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, etc and just makes all your cards better in comparison (Decree, Elspeth, man lands).

To finish this post off, I figure I should at least post the cards that are on the chopping block. The ones that are going to be looked at more closely than all the others.

The second Fact
The two Paths
The fourth Brainstorm

And last but not least, attacking with a 7/7 flying trampling insect monk is amazing.

[mossivo1986]

if you were to say go green i would say lftl needs to be there and something u havent thought of probobly is intuition for lftl wasteland (1ofs) along with ruins?.

plague is actually better then your giving it credit for. in the ichorid matchup it goes in as well.

im on myphone txting this so i cant really go into more detail without giving my thumbs dual sprains.

[Jak]

if you were to say go green i would say lftl needs to be there and something u havent thought of probobly is intuition for lftl wasteland (1ofs) along with ruins?.

plague is actually better then your giving it credit for. in the ichorid matchup it goes in as well.

im on myphone txting this so i cant really go into more detail without giving my thumbs dual sprains.

Yeah, I know about Plague and Ichorid. I'm not trying to say its bad, just not worth the splash.

And the Intuition thing is something I wanted to try. Putting the list together got me thinking about Intuition-Still. However, it doesn't fit with Cunning Wish and in my meta, I would rather have the versatility.

Still, Loam does need to be in the SB at least. I'll cut a couple wish targets to squeeze two in there.

[mossivo1986]

Yeah, I know about Plague and Ichorid. I'm not trying to say its bad, just not worth the splash.

And the Intuition thing is something I wanted to try. Putting the list together got me thinking about Intuition-Still. However, it doesn't fit with Cunning Wish and in my meta, I would rather have the versatility.

Still, Loam does need to be in the SB at least. I'll cut a couple wish targets to squeeze two in there.

[mossivo1986]

Yeah, I know about Plague and Ichorid. I'm not trying to say its bad, just not worth the splash.

And the Intuition thing is something I wanted to try. Putting the list together got me thinking about Intuition-Still. However, it doesn't fit with Cunning Wish and in my meta, I would rather have the versatility.

Still, Loam does need to be in the SB at least. I'll cut a couple wish targets to squeeze two in there.

1. dont do that.

2. check ur pm box.

[Jak]

After talking with mossivo, the list has changed.

3 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Island

2 Elspeth
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 EE
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

SB
3 Anti-Ichorid
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Counterspell
1 Wing Shards
1 Seed Spark
1 Ravenous Trap

The list is trimmed down and also adds Loam to abuse the man lands and can be grabbed via Cunning Wish --> Intuition.

[whiteshepherdman]

No. splashing green just for nantuko monastery and 1 lftl. no. black splash vindicate gives you so much more ways of dealing with threats than a land that you can recur with 1 lftl. Its bad. Lets see, im gonna just swords your man lands, what are you going to do now huh?? why would you even lftl. thats all of your answers. I think thats just pointless. Theres no point to dredging away your answers. Unless you have a better reason for splashing green than just playing natuko that dies from removal Its just bad. LFTL singleton, thats the most random thing ive ever seen. Might as well just play crucible in the main of black splash. At least you get e. plague and extirpate.

[Illissius]

I'm a sucker for Intuition combos of all sorts, but Cunning Wish -> Intuition -> Loam? Are you ever going to have time to do that and still have it matter?

I like playing a bunch of Tops, and then a couple of Loams solely for the purpose of casting one later in the game so you can keep making land drops, and then maybe dredging it back again three turns later. This also happens to be 3-1 card advantage, and then you can use your Top to draw spells all the time. Of course, fitting Brainstorm, Standstill, Cunning Wish, and Top in the same deck is going to be difficult, so maybe this isn't very relevant for your deck.

[Jak]

No. splashing green just for nantuko monastery and 1 lftl. no. black splash vindicate gives you so much more ways of dealing with threats than a land that you can recur with 1 lftl. Its bad. Lets see, im gonna just swords your man lands, what are you going to do now huh?? why would you even lftl. thats all of your answers. I think thats just pointless. Theres no point to dredging away your answers. Unless you have a better reason for splashing green than just playing natuko that dies from removal Its just bad. LFTL singleton, thats the most random thing ive ever seen. Might as well just play crucible in the main of black splash. At least you get e. plague and extirpate.

I can't even understand this post half the time. The list I posted is UW Landstill that has a small splash for a bigger man land, better land recursion, and an uncounterable disenchant. I find it funny that my list sucks because it doesn't include a 3cc sorcery spell that is out of the colors I am playing. Vindicate is far from necessary and Cunning Wish provides me with the versatility I need that doesn't require me to have 2 of my splash colors in a format dominated by Wasteland right now.

How is adding more man lands a bad thing, when you are talking about them getting removed? The more I have after one is removed one the better. And so what if you give me 4 life and take away one, I have other win conditions in the deck. Waste your removal on my lands because I'll love it when a 5/5 flying dragon comes down.

Life from the Loam is for the late game when your man lands have been wasted or died from blocking, or when you just want to continue hitting your land drops. It isn't necessary but its something nice to have when you need it.

Learn to capitalize.

Illissius

I'm a sucker for Intuition combos of all sorts, but Cunning Wish -> Intuition -> Loam? Are you ever going to have time to do that and still have it matter?

I like playing a bunch of Tops, and then a couple of Loams solely for the purpose of casting one later in the game so you can keep making land drops, and then maybe dredging it back again three turns later. This also happens to be 3-1 card advantage, and then you can use your Top to draw spells all the time. Of course, fitting Brainstorm, Standstill, Cunning Wish, and Top in the same deck is going to be difficult, so maybe this isn't very relevant for your deck.

I am not sure about Intuition yet. It is incredibly slow so maybe the slot would be better as FoF since it gets me cards now. Still, it should be tested.

I just don't like tops. Meaning, I would play them if I could, but since there is just no room for them, they have to stay out. I would love to play 4 Brainstorm, 3 Top, 4 Standstill, 3 Cunning Wish, and 3 Fact or Fiction, but it won't fit.

[rsaunder]

So I went 5-1-2 yesterday at the Lotus tournament yesterday. I lost to 43-land.dec (surprise!) and drew against my friend playing ichorid and, agrivatingly keeping me from T8ing, "exalted zoo." I dropped one game in the first 5 rounds of the tournament to Happy Gilmore with Zoo, and beat Ugr dreadstill, Ugb countertop, rock-guy, Bant (the one that T8'd I think), and... something else. I'll let you guys know when I remember.

[RogueMTG]

@rsaunder: D: that second draw sucks. sorry dude.

I manage to take 8th place at the Lotus tournament on Saturday, going 6-1-1 in the swiss.

I lost to Merfolk in the swiss and 43 Lands in the top 8. I tied round 1 against Canadian Thresh. Wins were: ANT, Bant Survival, Dragon Stompy, UGB-Intuition-Dark Depths, UWb Landstill mirror, and Bant Natural Order.

I'll try and get a fleshed out report up later today.

List:

4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 ScrubLand
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

sb
2 Vindicate
2 Duress
3 Meddling Mage
2 Negate
1 Counterspell
1 Ajani Goldmane
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile

[Reagens]

Some questions on your list:

How was humility for you?
Isn't a one-off a bit random? I tried it myself, but I felt that having 1 is just not right. I wanted 2 but then I had to cut something and I never figured out what I could cut.
Either it is a 2-of or maybe even 3, but as a 1-of without means to search for it...
How many times was ruins useful for you?
Why no arid mesa? Ever had color issues with your manabase?

About your sideboard:

Why no plague? Did you miss it at all?
How was meddling mage? Did you feel that 3 was the right number?
Which match-ups is duress for and did they serve their purpose?
Why the lone Ajani Goldmane? Was it enough?

PS: congrats on your result btw

[sengirvmpr]

Ok I never post on this site but I do read it about once a week. I play on MWS a lot and I do know humility is beast. I lose about once every 15 maches and im not sure why people dont like humility. Almost everybody plays creatures and combined with engineered plague post you cant lose to creatures....at all. Anyways, the only decks I have problems with are counterbalance and even then if I get enough mana I win. Heres my list.....
4 brainstorm
4 spell snare
4 swords
4 standstill
2 wrath
2 humility
1 cunning wish
3 counterspell
4 force of will
3 e explosives
1 pulse of the fields
2 decree of justice
1 enlightened tutor
1 eternal dragon


lands: 3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
5 island
2 plains
4 tundra
2 wasteland
4 mishras factory
1 scrubland

side: 1 wipe away
1 enlightend tutor
1 aura of silence
3 engineered plague
1 pulse of the fields
1 tormods crypt
2 extirpate
1 wing shards
1 return to dust
1 crucible of worlds
1 circle of protection red
1 path to exile

[rsaunder]

@rsaunder: D: that second draw sucks. sorry dude.I wish we'd put 2 landstill builds in the T8, I feel more sorry for the archtype than for my lack of prizes. It trounced everything without question until the last three rounds. Such a strong deck right now. Congrats though, glad you made it the distance!

Anyway, how'd wasteland and academy ruins work out for you? I played a basic-heavy build instead of the utility lands and didn't miss them very much all day while the ability to consistently hit basics for the first 3 land drops helped out a lot. And vindicate SB? Interesting. Other than that, love your list. FOF and SDT together MB is so overwhelmingly powerful.

[rockout]

Seems like a lot of landstill players went 5-X-X at the lotus event on saturday. I went 5-3 beating 43 land, zoo x3, survival and losing to goyf sligh, zoo, and tes (mulligan to 5 both games doesn't get there ever.)

My list was pretty standard.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [TE] Humility
1 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk

Ravenous Trap was kind of bad. I didn't cast it once but I brought it in against combo and survival but never played ichorid so I would assume its mainly for ichorid. The rest of my sideboard was pretty amazing. Disk was for the mirror, enchantress, natural order, cb, and staxs strategies. Negate was amazing all day against zoo saving me from pop and other such annoying stuff like choke and moon. The one of vindicate got boarded out almost every game. I'm sure it would have been good against stax if I played it but I just feel that disk is better in that slot or any one of the following cards: decree/elspeth/fof/wrath.

I do agree with you rsaunder, landstill can still smash just about anything. I don't want to see landstill drop out of DTW status.


I just don't like tops. Meaning, I would play them if I could, but since there is just no room for them, they have to stay out. I would love to play 4 Brainstorm, 3 Top, 4 Standstill, 3 Cunning Wish, and 3 Fact or Fiction, but it won't fit.
If I could fit it, I would run that same draw package.

[Ectoplasm]

So you actually board in negate against zoo? I bring in 2 or 3 paths (depending on how many are in my sideboard) and 2 ajani goldmane and that's about it, often boarding out jace and counterspells.

[Misplayer]

@sengir:
Humility can often be too slow against decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo when not coupled with cheap, early answers. I've lost to Merfolk with Humility on the table. Yes, it is a powerful card and will often force your opponent to over-extend into a mass-removal effect, but it also exposes you to situations where your opponent can Krosan Grip for the win. Those are the reasons why I'm hesitant to run it.

@rockout:
How did you beat 43Lands? Grave-hate? Force on Manabond? I've found that to be an absolutely dreadful matchup for Landstill, hopefully Ben's success with the deck this past weekend won't significantly increase it's popularity.

[NQN]

Ok I never post on this site but I do read it about once a week. I play on MWS a lot and I do know humility is beast. I lose about once every 15 maches and im not sure why people dont like humility. Almost everybody plays creatures and combined with engineered plague post you cant lose to creatures....at all. Anyways, the only decks I have problems with are counterbalance and even then if I get enough mana I win. Heres my list.....
4 brainstorm
4 spell snare
4 swords
4 standstill
2 wrath
2 humility
1 cunning wish
3 counterspell
4 force of will
3 e explosives
1 pulse of the fields
2 decree of justice
1 enlightened tutor
1 eternal dragon


lands: 3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
5 island
2 plains
4 tundra
2 wasteland
4 mishras factory
1 scrubland

side: 1 wipe away
1 enlightend tutor
1 aura of silence
3 engineered plague
1 pulse of the fields
1 tormods crypt
2 extirpate
1 wing shards
1 return to dust
1 crucible of worlds
1 circle of protection red
1 path to exile


Sry, but you cannot post a list without Elspeth and expect some serious comments :/ You play 1 Wish and 6 targets? srsly?
But you get +1 for noticing how sick humility is...but then again, it´s -1 for not noticing that ELspeth+Humility is even sicker :)

[rockout]

@rockout:
How did you beat 43Lands? Grave-hate? Force on Manabond? I've found that to be an absolutely dreadful matchup for Landstill, hopefully Ben's success with the deck this past weekend won't significantly increase it's popularity.

Game 1 he went turn 1 manabond dropping maze, treetop, savannah, mutavault, and other. I sworded his treetop, took some damage from mutavault and went wish for e tutor for crucible t4 and spent the next 10 turns trying to kill all his man lands dropping to 4 before I completely locked him. I eventually go to the point where he could only play 1 land a turn after I ee'd manabond while forcing his gamble at some point during the game. Game 2 he went turn 1 gamble which I forced, t2 manabond into basically the same hand as before but having double wasteland. I got pretty lucky and proceeded to not only rip 7 lands in my first 7 turns, but also 4 of my 6 stp effects in the first 10 turns. He eventually gambled for loam and went to cast it to bring back waste x2 to which I would have lost because my mana base was so fragile. I am gripping extirpate and I ask for his targets from loam because I was either going to hit wasteland or wait and hit loam. He declared no targets for loam and I did the happy dance in my head to which I extirpated loam and he scooped em up.

In closing, Crucible main > 43land.dec


Sry, but you cannot post a list without Elspeth and expect some serious comments :/ You play 1 Wish and 6 targets? srsly?
But you get +1 for noticing how sick humility is...but then again, it´s -1 for not noticing that ELspeth+Humility is even sicker :)

I got survival to scoop to t5 humility g1 on saturday. :-)

[rsaunder]

@Draw: I ran a draw package of:

3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill
2 FOF

And it was just amazing all day. I'm considering going back to cunning wish for...certain circumstances which would just be in addition to that package. I seriously urge everyone to try this package out.

@Rockout: I hate you for being able to beat 43-land.dec. I tried soooo hard and failed.

[mossivo1986]

its all about 6 maindeck stp effects rofl. .. .. . all of them...

also not going to say it but remember how I said survival has 0 outs to survival other then bird'sing you to death. . . I'm suprised he just scooped because usually thats there only path once you resolve it game 1. game 2 is a bit clunkier but its still basicly the same approach..


o and I told you so. :)

[whiteshepherdman]

@rsaunder: to beat 43 lands, I run 4 EE's and the rest of my paths from my sb, just make sure you don't get shut out of the game too early by their ports before you'ved amassed some mana and it should be fine

[rockout]

@Rockout: I hate you for being able to beat 43-land.dec. I tried soooo hard and failed.

All you need to do g1 is see wish or crucible to win. G2 I got so unbelievably lucky drawing every stp effect I had and still almost losing. I think I'm 3-1 all time against 43land in tourney. My 1 lost is what knocked me out of contention for day 2 at GP chicago (I beat him game 1 with curcible lock :eek: .) Game 3 I let a mage on loam die to tabernacle to cast crucible and he drew his 2nd and final ancient grudge to beat me with the snare in my hand for it while getting my mana base raped.

Oh, t1 ee @ 1 is usually good enough to get you there g1 as well, read the post above mine.

[whiteshepherdman]

and like rockout explained, crucible helps a lot too (forgot about that) since you can bring back your factories to block their factories or nantuko's. Shutting them out with wastelock doesn't always work though since they have loam so i prefer to just to build my manabase and play powerful spells. In the end, you win with a cycled decree and stp effects to get rid of their win conditions since maze of ith can't do much against 5 or 6 soldier tokens all at the same time. The worst challenge for me though is getting burned down by barbarian ring but you can easily overcome that if you're playing wishstill with pulse of the fields.

[mossivo1986]

43 land is irrelevant. It's so often not played and if so it's few in numbers.

Let's bring up some lists and satisfy testing needs. I'll post a couple of lists in a bit when im done with my paper or in a few days with some explanations and invites for testing etc.

Also loam. Whats happening with aggro loam. Survival. etc. Get some of the tier 2 decks out of the way and off the board.

[thefreakaccident]

So... I have a slightly less conventional list... I still don't know if this is an optional design, but it seems interesting:

lands//22
3 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
3 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains
2 island

creatures//4
4 spellstutter sprite


spells//34
2 moat
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 force of will
4 standstill
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
3 bitterblossom
4 counterbalance
2 ajani goldmane
1 elspeth, knight errant

sideboard//
3 enlightened tutor
4 relic of progenitus
2 engineered plague
2 engineered explosives
2 ajani goldmane
1 pithing needle
1 elspeth, knight errant


The concept is simple... You play just like normal landstill, stalling the board with continuous effects via bitterblossom and planeswalkers.

But, you can also change gears pretty nicely with the pump abilities of both walkers, as well as the added permission that the sprites provide the deck, much like other lists use snare to complement their counter suit.

I chose vindicate because unlike other landstill builds, we actually have plenty of permanents that stick around, so vindicate as a 1 sided answer to permanents works a little better IMO.

The build has a few high cc cards, but it runs a good amount of cantrips and may also wish to incorperate some number of ponders in the future.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Could a list like this have merit?

[mossivo1986]

needs more lands?

[whiteshepherdman]

I think freakaccident's list doesn't rely on 4 drops as much so 22 is enough vs the usual 23. He doesn't run decrees which make our lists very mana intensive and uses bitterblossom instead+4 sensei's to filter into lands if need be. looks very interesting

[damionblackgear]

My only concern from a first glance is how many nonbasics you run. You should be able to get by with 5 or 6 duals. I would suggest adding the swamp to insure you can play your vindicates against moons, crucibles, critters... it seems solid though.

Cut the plagues though. With so many lords, they're not what they used to be. I suggest ghostly prison and/or (preferably And) propaganda. They're more versitile and give you a better game against agro than plague. Having both means echoing truth/meddling mage (either played any more?) doesn't get them all.

[mossivo1986]

Rofl. Plague is the nuts dude. . . Still...

Prop is easily blasted and answered to all the other answers that engineered is dealt with, whereas ep actually removes, kills threats.

Prison is meh, neither one of the 2 protect your elspeth.

All in all Plague is just better in most ways.

oh and what the crap is too many lords? are you sliver infested?

[mossivo1986]

I think freakaccident's list doesn't rely on 4 drops as much so 22 is enough vs the usual 23. He doesn't run decrees which make our lists very mana intensive and uses bitterblossom instead+4 sensei's to filter into lands if need be. looks very interesting

I don't think so. Hes more reliant on colors and he is justifying a more conditional gameplan. Also he hasn't made up his mind on wether he's casting bb cb or ss t2 which has got to be funny when it turns out that the best threat he plays get hammered with a daze/ spell snare/ spell pierce. All together I feel like the tempo decks rape him in the tempo game and the control decks if they play him will lose but don't really care because they have a 50/50 shot at locking him out with better control or wastelock.

[LostButSeeking]

oh and what the crap is too many lords? are you sliver infested?

Folk and elves--I don't have the privilege of playing against goblins--both have three quality creatures that say "other elves get +1/+1" on them. This makes up, say, a quarter of their creature base.

[damionblackgear]

Rofl. Plague is the nuts dude. . . Still...

Are you playing in a time loop?! Has your meta not met Gobs, Folk, or Elves past M10? All of them play at least 4 lords to null your plagues. Notice how that lackey that used to die is still on the field? Yeah, Plagues are good.... Against D&T (Human) and that's it. The other tribal decks are almost all lords or x/2's.

Prop can be blasted. Chances are they they'll bring them in, if they're red. But, if their aiming at that at least you can try and counter the blast (I'll admit you have to have it in hand for that strategy to work), but if that's your afraid of play all prisons.

Also, I'm aware it doesn't protect Elspeth. She's too slow for Gobs, Folk, or Elves anyway. Yeah she's a win condition but so are your man lands (especially with Crucible) and they can block the 1 or 2 of whatever's attacking and usually kill it (Must have 2+ lords to have anything survive a pumped factory).

Additionally, it makes things like waste or Port that much worse. Tap my land? OK! that meant you didn't attack with 1 or 2 dudes. I'd rather have to time to find the answer than hope that the lord doesn't A) get vialed in or B) Get cast while I'm without counter (GO Plague!).

[Snip. Verbal warning for flame-baiting. Whether I agree with you or not, don't. - Bardo]

Ok. I'll keep it Kosher.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Now, unless you have something intelligent to say be quite.

Hahahaha. Loves me some well placed typos.

[whiteshepherdman]

lol i love how our thread is always the one getting warnings for arguments. Mossivo vs Hanni, Mossivo v Damion and Lost...

However, moss is right in this argument about the fact that engineered plague is amazing against any tribal deck and even against non-LED dredge. Your going to side in spot removal besides E. plague against decks like elves and what you do is remove their lords and drop E. plague as soon as possible to seal the game. Afterwards, its just smooth sailing

[mossivo1986]

lol i love how our thread is always the one getting warnings for arguments. Mossivo vs Hanni, Mossivo v Damion and Lost...

However, moss is right in this argument about the fact that engineered plague is amazing against any tribal deck and even against non-LED dredge. Your going to side in spot removal besides E. plague against decks like elves and what you do is remove their lords and drop E. plague as soon as possible to seal the game. Afterwards, its just smooth sailing

What can I say, I'm the thread bullshit caller? :tongue: I guess I should get an award.

The amount of knowledge i've gained by arguing in this thread is probably 10x that of others by sitting here reading and not posting.

FYI if any of you care to be skeptical of me check out the T.C.S. thread (Tezzeret Stax Combo). I need help with it as I'm not at all sold on a great model. Needs lots of help and the thread is in need of a good flame or list or something.

[RogueMTG]

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to reply to you guys, my Internet is out of commission at home unfortunately.


Some questions on your list:
How was humility for you?
Isn't a one-off a bit random? I tried it myself, but I felt that having 1 is just not right. I wanted 2 but then I had to cut something and I never figured out what I could cut.
Either it is a 2-of or maybe even 3, but as a 1-of without means to search for it...
How many times was ruins useful for you?
Why no arid mesa? Ever had color issues with your manabase?

About your sideboard:

Why no plague? Did you miss it at all?
How was meddling mage? Did you feel that 3 was the right number?
Which match-ups is duress for and did they serve their purpose?
Why the lone Ajani Goldmane? Was it enough?

PS: congrats on your result btw

Humility was amazing! Easily the MVP of the day. I used to not play it at all, but the Friday before the event I decided to try it out. I ended up winning every game it hit the table. I would love to fit a second one in the main but I don't really know what to cut for it.

Ruins was kind of awful to be honest, I'm probably going to cut it. It was most useful as a wasteland that only hits other Academy Ruins. I only used it a couple times, drawing new cards almost always seemed better than getting something from my GY back. I'm debating changing it to the fourth Factory or just having another open slot (maybe Humility number 2 or a Path to Exile)

No plague was because I don't really like the card. It has a somewhat narrow application and we should already have a decent match-up against people trying to kill us with small dudes. Granted, I only played one tribal deck (Merfolk) and I did lose to it. In a tribal heavy meta I could see the argument, but it seemed better to use the SB to fight the control mirror and combo.

That brings us to Duress, the theory was that it comes in for the Mirror/Planeswalker Control, Combo decks, and random Burn. It acts as a proactive counterspell in the Combo/Burn matchups, and in the control mirror it can give you invaluable information about when it's safe to be aggressive and go for the win as well as stripping their answers.

It did it's job against combo when I played it. First turn taking his LED, second turn dropping Meddling Mage on the 2 Rite of Flames I now knew he had in hand. Unfortunately I wasn't able to test it much in the other match ups. Meddling Mage at 3 seemed to work ok, I may have just gotten lucky and always saw one when I needed it, but the draw package is pretty good.

The manabase was fine pre-Zendikar, I don't think Arid Mesa is really needed, plus it can't find an Island. I didn't have any color problems.

The lone Ajani was for Zoo/Burn and Combo. It should probably be a 2 of or a zero of, but I didn't know what to cut so I kept the miser's 1.



I wish we'd put 2 landstill builds in the T8, I feel more sorry for the archtype than for my lack of prizes. It trounced everything without question until the last three rounds. Such a strong deck right now. Congrats though, glad you made it the distance!

Anyway, how'd wasteland and academy ruins work out for you? I played a basic-heavy build instead of the utility lands and didn't miss them very much all day while the ability to consistently hit basics for the first 3 land drops helped out a lot. And vindicate SB? Interesting. Other than that, love your list. FOF and SDT together MB is so overwhelmingly powerful.

2 in the T8 would have been since. Landstill is definitely a powerhouse. Wasteland was good, it definitely helped mana screw some opponents early and wastelock is still good even with the new fetches. Ruins on the other hand was kind of bad, and as I said before will probably be cut in the future.

I used to run Vindicate main deck, but I really only wanted it in some matchups. Namely Stax/Stompy decks that run lock peices, and anything playing Planeswalkers. Pulling them from the Main made room for Tops and Humility, which seems generally better.

Thanks for the congrats guys, I promised a report, and it'll hopefully be up soon.

Edit: report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15554

[thefreakaccident]

I don't think so. Hes more reliant on colors and he is justifying a more conditional gameplan. Also he hasn't made up his mind on wether he's casting bb cb or ss t2 which has got to be funny when it turns out that the best threat he plays get hammered with a daze/ spell snare/ spell pierce. All together I feel like the tempo decks rape him in the tempo game and the control decks if they play him will lose but don't really care because they have a 50/50 shot at locking him out with better control or wastelock.


I honestly dont see how running a lower curve hurts the deck's gameplan at all... I have not been having mana issues with the deck with only 3 lands that dont produce colored mana...

Wastelock is a bitch for anything with a higher curve... Mana denial would hurt a helluva lot more if i added more higj cc spells (i already feel like im running too much)... The additives of both counterbalance and bitterblossom both help the control mu immensely (have you ever had to just deal with the tolens when the opponent wont let you destroy the blossom?) its a pain im the ass for normal control... Especially if they are trying to keep walkers around...

This list was designed to abuse moat, unless nobody noticed... All but 3 of my threats fly, which allows one sided shenanigans.

[whiteshepherdman]

Props on the Moat+Bitterblossom interaction =D i like it, although could bitterblossom become a liability late game? The counter-suite does seem a little light, but if you get cb to land i think you'd have an easy time shutting them out. Moat atm though is also a liability since zoo is liking quasali pridemage. May i suggest -1 standstill, -1 brainstorm +2 spell snare

[mossivo1986]

I honestly dont see how running a lower curve hurts the deck's gameplan at all... I have not been having mana issues with the deck with only 3 lands that dont produce colored mana...

Wastelock is a bitch for anything with a higher curve... Mana denial would hurt a helluva lot more if i added more higj cc spells (i already feel like im running too much)... The additives of both counterbalance and bitterblossom both help the control mu immensely (have you ever had to just deal with the tolens when the opponent wont let you destroy the blossom?) its a pain im the ass for normal control... Especially if they are trying to keep walkers around...

This list was designed to abuse moat, unless nobody noticed... All but 3 of my threats fly, which allows one sided shenanigans.

more land should be in the deck because you want to cast moat? 22 land is harsh enough on landstill running 17 1 drops which you arn't doing. I suggest more land because 1 or two land doesn't kill your concept but it does assure your going to hit everything you want to cast. Occasionally flooding isnt a bad thing either especially when you play against anti fetch dual strategies :)

[Skeggi]

Since I acquired a playset of Bitterblossoms it's nothing but disappointment. You drop it, it does nothing. The next turn you lose 1 life and you get a token. This token does nothing, because it still has summoning sickness. And they're really bad chump-blockers since they cost you 1 life each: so you want to go aggro with them. Going aggro with Landstill? Sounds like a bad plan to me. I'm going to call it: Bitterblossom is crap. I've tried it in Landstill, I've tried it in Tempo Faeries. Well, I can tell you, there's nothing tempo about Bitterblossom. And for Landstill: you don't want to set a clock on yourself. That's just stupid, really.

[mossivo1986]

Well I guess I can't argue with it being bad? I mean I went over it with a couple of different people and it was cut each time so...... yeah gg no re

[klaus]

I'm going to call it: Bitterblossom is crap[...] in Landstill

It's actually quite decent in LS featuring 2 Polymorph (+1x Mystical Tutor) and Progenitus. :cool:
(also Mutavaults PLUS Factories).
I've simply not found the time to test it thoroughly.

[Tinefol]

The most awful thing in Polymorph is that it targets, which turns it into no-no. I've tried, it utterly failed. If you run blossom, you have to squeeze a jitte somewhere. I just can't imagine the why you wouldn't run jitte along the blossom.

[Skeggi]

Squeezing a Jitte in Landstill seems silly. Basically you have to make an entire new deck with Standstills, Bitterblossoms, Jitte and Countertop. It won't be Landstill and I'm not sure if it would be any good. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Benie Bederios]

Squeezing a Jitte in Landstill seems silly. Basically you have to make an entire new deck with Standstills, Bitterblossoms, Jitte and Countertop. It won't be Landstill and I'm not sure if it would be any good. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

NOT saying that Bitterblossom should work in Landstill, but if it does, it's next to Ajani( probably Goldmane for the manabase.)

Benie

[Citrus-God]

Let's just clear this up. Bitterblossom works in Landstill, but it still sucks in Landstill. Why? Because it's a permanent that doesn't really support Landstill's game plan of function. It makes chumb blockers? Really, is that even good enough to warrant it's inclusion? It doesn't really establish board control, and it's susceptible to Qasali Pridemage, which is huge right now.

Bitterblossom is also susceptible to opposing Spell Snares and dies to your own EE for 2.

[Skeggi]

Bitterblossom being a Tribal Enchantment usually means that if it gets killed it at least gives your opponent's Tarmogoyf +1/+1, often +2/+2. But I guess that's the least of your worries :wink:

[Ectoplasm]

What are we running blossom for? We already have Elspeth :)

[RogueMTG]

Squeezing a Jitte in Landstill seems silly. Basically you have to make an entire new deck with Standstills, Bitterblossoms, Jitte and Countertop. It won't be Landstill and I'm not sure if it would be any good. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, it's called Countertop Faeries. It's not an awful deck, has it's own thread in established decks, but it's def. not Landstill.

[Citrus-God]

Yeah, it's called Countertop Faeries. It's not an awful deck, has it's own thread in established decks, but it's def. not Landstill.

It's still awfully underdeveloped...

It's not bad, but it's not great either compared to UGW CounterTop.

[Ectoplasm]

Landstill is the Legacy deck of choice of the Dutch Worlds-team :D

[mossivo1986]

link?

[Bardo]

The last few posts in this thread do not belong in the DTB.

Warnings to Mossivo and Ectoplasm for spamming this forum.

See our Site Rules on this topic.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174028&postcount=6

[Ectoplasm]

I'll redeem myself by posting the decklist :D

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Elspeth
2 Jace
2 Cunning Wish
1 Moat
1 Decree of Justice

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extirpate
3 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hydroblast
1 ... forgot ...

What immediately jumps at me is the cut of eternal dragon and the high amount of planeswalkers, which seems like a decent pick in a meta filled with control.

[gustha]

What immediately jumps at me is the cut of eternal dragon and the high amount of planeswalkers, which seems like a decent pick in a meta filled with control.
I disagree. Planeswalker are bombs in whichever meta, new sets didn't affect the difficulty for any deck to get rid of them (unless someone wants to play mold shambler...and vampire hexmage is used for the combo, so no worry for our strong allies). I'd play 7 if I had room... (I only play 6 atm :smile: )

[whiteshepherdman]

A lot of planeswalkers over our usual 2-3 decrees seems good

But, imagine this scenario:

You're playing the mirror and you both have a ton of lands in play and he has nothing and you cast elspeth, then cast standstill.

So you think this game is in the bag,

until he cycles for 5 soldier tokens, deals with elspeth and starts attacking your life for 3 or 4 a turn. While Decree is great for giving you time in an aggro match, I think decree is even better in a control game where all of a sudden you have multiple threats and they arn't able to deal with it quickly. You get that surprise factor, similar to playing standstill early game and the opponent playing vendillion clique in response..

[Citrus-God]

But Landstill mirrors are still quite rare, and isn't much of a concern right now; especially if most players use Landstill as a metagame deck. The best tools to have for Landstill is still uncountably DoJs and Wasteland, but it's not something for people to worry about. Especially if they already pack 3 Wastelands and 3 DoJs. Playskill and experience will win this match up anyway. This is why most skilled Landstill players back in the era of Vial Goblins and Landstill kept Standstills in mirrors, because it forces their opponents to play different when dropped. Especially when you have experience. While those inexperienced Landstill players boarded in Deep Analysis, the better ones kept Standstills in and overran the lesser players.



But back to the main point. Planeswalkers are really fucking good, but having DoJs can still a lot of the time be better. The only Planeswalker I will ever use are Elspeth, and occasionally Ajani Goldmane in the SB. Elspeth is really fucking good on her own, but you like playing with bombs, just cram in an extra copy or two. DoJ, however, forces bad players to play badly. I've stolen too many games off a hardcasted DoJ for 2+ Angel tokens, or bought time by cycling them to create 1-3 turn fogs until I can maintain my mana and card advantage so that I can turn the game around. A play, which many would consider cute, but isn't fucking cute at all, is cycling DoJ as blockers when holding WoG in hand, then proceed to cast FoF. Regardless of whether they know you have WoG in your hand or not, they will make piles where they try and keep you away from removal; especially with WoG in the mix. Let's say you're facing down a Ncatl and a Goyf. Your FoF pile reveals

Island
Island
Swords
EE
Standstill


You have just previously cycled DoJ for 3 the previous turn, and holding WoG in hand. You blocked a Nactl and a Goyf came into play, and then this turn, you traded both your soldier tokens to Goyf and Nactl. Chances are they think you're desperate to stay alive, seeing as you just cycled DoJ the previous turns, you might be trying to buy time for WoG or two removal spells, or just removal of any kind. They aren't going to give you both of those removal spells. Guess what? That's good. You can pick between piles that would like something like this:

Standstill
EE

Island
Island
Swords

And any of those piles would be beneficial for you depending on other cards in your hand, but taking a pile with just two removal spells seems a little pointless, as all they can do is buy time, and not speed up your development. Hitting 8 lands is the sweet spot for you, and that pile isn't going to do that for you. In this case, I would just take Standstill and EE, cast WoG, and drop Standstill. Now you have a removal spell, and more than likely to draw into more control elements and that extra land you need to hit 8.

Now if experienced Zoo players catch that from experience against you, shift your play. Cast FoF in scenarios like the one above, and they might even split it as

EE
Swords

Standstill
Island
Island

Congratz. You have stayed alive. This is the beauty of human psychology and your personal vigilance. Also, when you are holding WoG and they make this pile, when your opponent shifts gears against you, again, you can just take Standstill and Islands. You have not only taken more control of the game, you have turned it into a fucking lock. Let's be honest though. A WoG isn't going to take that much control of the game, which is why a lot of players don't like it. It isn't get you control completely, and never will. Why do you think we make so many 1-for-1 trades with WoG? Exactly, it can't contain the opponents. Players know how to play against you, and you can only use play skill and clever manipulation to swing the game in your favor.

[Tacosnape]

I agree with high amounts of Planeswalkers. I'm up to running a 3/2/1 Jace/Elspeth/Ajani split with no regrets.


Landstill is the Legacy deck of choice of the Dutch Worlds-team :D

This is because of the Dutch's automatic love of anything that costs :2::w::w:. Don't be surprised to see Cavalry Master become the next Elspeth/Humility/Moat.

[Tinefol]

Personally I run 3/2/1 split too as of now. And I still want to squeeze in the 2nd Ajani, but I'm too clogged on 4cc spot already.
Played the FNM yesterday. 5 short 40 min rounds (I hate that). Went 2-1-2, losing to goblins 1-2 (screwed on 3 lands both lost games) and ended up drawing the won matches (I had complete control of the table game3, but alas, its short round and turns already).

The funny game to note, is where I played against Natural Order survival. My opponent sticked the survival for a while, casted two Orders (one of which I didn't counter) and I still managed to win xD

[mossivo1986]

played in a local 14 man sunday.

m1. t.c.s.- played carefully. won by default as the model isn't finished yet.

m2 eva green. rolled with an excellent starting hand. dragged it out 45 minuted until 5 minute warning. then went to game 2 which we didnt get to play as we never resolved mulligans.

m3 fae manland tempo control. rolls me on a mull to 5 g1. g2 i have control and let a sower through vial take control of my mishra under still. my own fault. both games i get rolled by double standstill break into double force (g2 triple force.) ....must be nice hehe...

m4. mono red gobbos. g1 he rolls me. g2 i side and though i take a questionable hand i win with a ripped tundra off the top. g3 he rips kikki into ringleader into ringleader. then copies ringleader..... gg no re for me :). should have layed the disk.... cost me the game.

ill detail it more later. atleast im doing better since columbus's 1-3. overal finished 2-2 matches 3-4 games....

[mossivo1986]

my list is the updated list i last posted with dragon and cow in the md again. however for such a small undeveloped meta i have determined that my landstill model shouldn't be played specificly because people bring in all types of hate and its too difficult to see where its all comming from.

i think im going to throw white splash tempo thresh at them next time so i can just clean house. its rediculous how good that deck actually is.

on another note. remember kids always print the notes for ur deck before a tourney. dont think. "well i dont need them. theres a reason they are there. take advantage of all ur hard work!"

[RogueMTG]

So after it's lackluster performance I decided to cut Academy Ruins from my deck. It was in as the 24th land. My question is what I should do with the open slot?

Current contenders:
4th Mishra's Factory
2nd Humility
2nd Decree of Justice
1-of Path to Exile
1-of Vindicate

Any thoughts/advice/other possibilities?

[Citrus-God]

A fetchland should be in place of that slot... That or another DoJ.

[rsaunder]

A fetchland should be in place of that slot... That or another DoJ.

I'd definitely up DOJ to 2.

[Tinefol]

Just for the laugh: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11278

Its fun to read old card evaluations before they had a chance to really settle in the format. Like Elspeth is the weakest PW :)

[Elf_Ascetic]

Talking about Elspeth...

Here, more and more Elspeths are being runned in other decks. Of course, some landstill, but in Countertop and The Rock as well. Needless to say that that is bad for us. Elspeth is, besides combo, our biggest problem. I started looking for ways to deal with hostile Elspeths, and this is what I've came up with so far:
- Play 3 Elsepths ourself. Try it, it's fabulous. But of course, this doesn't garantee a win.
- Play a Vindicatebuild. Probable the best option.

However, I am really addicted to the versatility Cunning Wish grants us. I like Enlightened Tutoring up my Moat or Humilty against Merfolk, or my Ravenous Trap against Dredge, and of course, the MVP of many days: Pulse of the Fields. And of course, still Pathing/Returning to Dust every other stupid permanent.

So I started looking for some wishable (W, U or B Instants) answers for hostile Elspeths. I found this so far:
- Clockworking (way too slow)
- Capsize (could do the trick)
- other bounce: Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Rushing River. The rest? Worse.
- Recoil, only succesfull when you're opponent is empty handed.
- Commandeer (knick your Elspeth for the marginal cost of two blue cards)
- Negate (meh)

I looked in some Token-makers too, to beat Elspeth to death, but Waylay was the only one that has potential, and even that is very, very weak.

Harcore damage on Elspeth isn't going to make it: Psionic Blast is the only one in our colors, and unless you've done something to -2 Elspeth already, it's really useless.

Do you have more options?

[klaus]

Do you have more options?

Oblivion Ring. Conflicts with our EEs though.
In non black builds, I'd probably run it as a one-of, never random never dead.
In red-splashed builds, Helixes and Ajani V. can do the trick, too.
DoJ tokens also work just fine in the late game.

---

@ RogueMTG:
I'd opt for the singleton Vindicate.
Cutting a land for one of the most mana hungry spells out there makes no sense.

[gustha]

Force of will and counterspell suddendly disappear from the format? Can't we legend other's elspeth with our elspeth anymore? Oblivion ring is a viablw option as well, without vindicate. or splashing the manabse for a 4th color (see Lampron's Ultimate walker). Talking about elspeth, I recognized its power soon so that I could take a couple of copies for little money when she come out and everybody thought sarkhan vol was the absolutely best PW of the saga :tongue: (I undervalued tarmogoyf as I first saw it, didn't want to commit the same error! :cool: )

I've also been playing her everywhere: countertop, rock, even stax (playing elspeth in less than 3 copies in armageddon stax means you want to hurt yourself hard): probably the most insane card ever printed, since shards of alara I don't ask anything to Richard Garfield Santa Klaus. Playing 3 in landstill is not mandatory, but I personaly recommend it unless you play vedalken shackles or lots of wrath of god/decree of justice, because you already have other board control elements. Way to deal with elspeth:
-counter her
-cycle a doj for 5-6 and kill her the next turn
-land another elspeth
-resolve vedalken shackles and kill her with her own soldier tokens + mishras
-vindicate her
-oring her
-capsize her (wow, someone appreciates my tech-is tech :laugh: ).

Definitely, not a card to worry about. if you are facing countertop, well they probably have only 1 preboard (so you beat them in number) and the surely will side her out for gaddock teeg, which is not that problem. And in any case, you have to worry about countering counterbalance, that's the gamebreaking card. Against the rock, they probably have 1 preboard too (garruck is just better in rock, I personally play 2 garruck 1 elspeth - beasts have more synergy with baloths than soldiers): you have to worry about confidant and witness/stronghold recursion (3 witness +1 elspeth usually means they have 4 elspeths). The MU is a little closer here. You have to really worry about elspeth in stax, if stax will be played widely again (I doubt it), and stax players recognize elspeth to be an auto-include in 3-of: it potentially comes down 2nd turn, and have lots of synergy with the rest of the deck, from smokestack to armageddon, and also keeps the board which is what she is meant to do, thus generating virtual card advantage that is what stax lack.

To sum up: opposing elspeths are not, strictly speaking, something to worry about (except if you are playing a mirror match, than ofc the first to resolve elspeth is in a bette position). Against other decks you mentioned, you must focus on other things: counterbalance and confidant/witness advantage. As for stax, passing immune through the increasing number of cc4 bombs is becoming more and more a problem.

[Skeggi]

Oblivion Ring. Conflicts with our EEs though.
Is that so? I thought if an Oblivion Ring was played on a Planeswalker, and the Oblivion Ring gets destroyed, the Planeswalker enters the battlefield with 0 Loyalty counters, dying to a SBE? That would still mean it'll snipe your Elspeth, but that seems like a minimal conflict?

...or am I completely off now? :wink:

[gustha]

Is that so? I thought if an Oblivion Ring was played on a Planeswalker, and the Oblivion Ring gets destroyed, the Planeswalker enters the battlefield with 0 Loyalty counters, dying to a SBE? That would still mean it'll snipe your Elspeth, but that seems like a minimal conflict?

...or am I completely off now? :wink:
Why should that be so? I think the card removed with oring enters the battlefield as a newly played card, so it "forgets" previous game informations. Planeswalker enters the battlefield with the number of loyalty counters indicated on the card, not one more nor one less.

[Skeggi]

Oh, right, I'm having a brainfart. Nevermind :smile:

[Elf_Ascetic]

@ Gustha: Of course, there are a lot of ways to deal with here. I've crushed Elspeth with an Eternal Dragon, once.. But I like having more options. I've settled on Capsize in the board once, it does some nice tricks against Iona as well.

[grahf]

I'm sad that there hasn't been much activity here recently, this is probably my favorite thread (and deck) on The Source.

Anyways, I'm working on getting the cards for an actual competitive build of Landstill, and I'm wondering what direction I should take it in - I'm hoping to play with it in some of Starcity's legacy tourneys next year.

While the core of the deck seems pretty much agreed upon, I see a divergence based on what cards are used for versatility.

UWb with Cunning Wish - seems like the most popular
UWb with Vindicate - one card to do most of the things Wish can
UW with Counterbalance maindeck - something like Hanni's builds, with O-Ring as pseudo-Vindicate
UWr with Ajani V, Firespout, maybe Helixes - in the direction of Ultimate Walker

I wouldn't consider any of these to be inherently better than the other, but instead having relative strengths vs. a given metagame.

Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge, and Reanimator are what concern me the most. After laying out the options, and considering the threat of fast aggro, I'm thinking that UWr might be the way to go. That, and Underground Seas are expensive.

Or am I barking up the completely wrong tree, and is this the wrong deck to play in an aggro meta?

[klaus]

Or am I barking up the completely wrong tree, and is this the wrong deck to play in an aggro meta?

UWr is still underestimated imo.
It's a powerhouse in mixed meta's and currently my personal weapon of choice.
This is partially due to those SB REBs. They will definitely give you an edge against the MUs you mentioned:
Countering 1st turn discard outlets VS Dredge and Reanimator, feasting on Merfolks while being generally superb in a blue-ish meta, makes them a solid four-of in your meta'd SB.
I'd still suggest, you playtest other versions just to see what suits you best.

[rsaunder]

I'm still really tempted to try out a UWr build that plays r almost exclusively for Burning Wish. Maybe just a "cool thing," but it seems VERY powerful.

[rockout]

I tested burning wish landstill for about 3 months and I felt that it was really strong. I used solemn judgement, armageddon, call to the skybreaker, wrath of god and firespout as my wish targets and let me just say that going the "LD" approach with crucible, wasteland, wish for geddon, and ajani vegence was probably the most fun I'd ever had playing landstill. I felt like everytime I cast burning wish I was either winning the game or putting myself so far ahead that they weren't able to recover. Also, I ran volcanic fallout out of my board just as a fun techy way to beat merfolk and later zoo became the aggro deck to beat so I decided that more firespouts was a better idea. You also get reb/beb out of the board which handles a large portion of the format.

Wish targets I tested:
Mindspring
Call to the skybreaker
teraschi's grap
solemn judgement
pyroclasm
telemin's performance
rolling earthquake (the portal earthquake not sure if I put the correct title)
Banefire, Fireball, sorcery with buyback fireball fanning the flames?
mimeofracture
bribery (funny against progenitus + no)

The reason I don't run burning wish landstill anymore is burning wish usually takes a full turn to effect the board where as cunning wish can be cast in response to stuff or at someones eot and be set up for your turn to do what you need to do. I choose instant over sorcery but both are really solid.

[rsaunder]

Half of why I'm so curious to try it out is the curve it builds. It makes CB@2 a decent probability.

3 standstill
3 CS
4 CB (out of the board)
2-3 B. Wish

Sounds good, along with a button of one-drops... But I digress. I don't know what I think about it, exactly because of what Rockout said, it's a 2-ish turn card, which landstill doesn't need. Also, the SB would be hideous, 4 wish-board slots, 3+ REB, 4 CB, so you have... 4 other slots?

[Elf_Ascetic]

And by improving your own CB, you're making your countertop matchup worse. I've wished for CB-removal plenty of times.