[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[FlavaSava]

Hey, what do u think about my "new" list
Deck(61)
Lands(24)
4 Tundra/Flooded Strand/Mishras Factory
3 Island
2 Plains/Polluted Delta
1 Dust Bowl/Academy Ruins/Tolaria West/U-Sea/Scrubland

Permission(9)
4 Force of Will
3 Spellsnare
2 Counterspell

Removal(12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility/Wrath of God
1 O-Stone

Carddraw etc.(12)
4 Brainstorm/Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Jace Beleren/Enlightened Tutor

Killoption(4)
2 DoJ
1 Eternal Dragon/Crucible of Worlds

the most important Change is in my opinion to play 24 Lands, which means to play 4 Factorys and to play Jace. I think about dropping Disk, but i´m unsure about this, if i drop Disk, i would also drop the E.Tutor.

My board is this

3 Extirpate/Hydroblast
2 Runed Halo
1 Pulse of the Fields/Return to Dust/Enlightened Tutor/Engineered Plague/Pithing Needle/Tormords Crypt

The last time I very dislike Meddling Mage, so i boot him out and play a "Enchanment Wish-Board", if i drop the E.Tutor main, i would also change the Wish-Board
What do you think

[rockout]

3 extirpate
1 pulse of the fields
1 slaughter pact (no dragon stompy anymore)
1 dismantling blow (again, no stompy, good against thresh/survival)
1 enlightened tutor
4 challice of the void
4 runed halo



Pithing needle would be hot in my meta right now, but I do not know their whereabouts :rolleyes: .


Anyways, tell me what you think guys.


EDIT: also, when I am expecting ichorid, I bring a few propagandas in my board, what is the juries' verdict on that one?

Propaganda is amazing against ichorid. Chalice in landstill? It seems to hurt you more than help you. Tell me how it works out at the tourney.

[jazzykat]

Reading through most of this thread, a couple of questions came to mind:

What is the max # of humilities that shoudl be played, it looks like 2?

Has FoF officially been replaced by Ponder?

Jace, In oder Aus? People had erections for this dude 2-3 months ago and now the love has died off.

Has Eternal Dragon had his day, and are we now just cycling stupid big decrees?

Is there some sort of core that no one disagrees about as I have seen things as janky as oblivion stone?

Is disk too slow?

What would you do to your SB and MD if you wanted to make sure you murdered Dragon Stompy?

[TeKo]

3+ Tundra
1+ Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded
2 Delta
3+ Mishra's
(1 Bowl, 1 Academy, 1 Tolaria)
X Islands
X Plains

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force
2+ Decree
2 Humility
3+ EE
0-3 WoG
0-3 Cunning Wish
2-4 Counterspell
0-4 Spell Snare
0-2 Eternal Dragon
0-3 Ponder
0-1 Sensei
0-3 FoF
0-2 Crucible

[klaus]

Reading through most of this thread, a couple of questions came to mind:

What is the max # of humilities that shoudl be played, it looks like 2?
Correct.


Has FoF officially been replaced by Ponder?
Not officially. Ponder is stronger in faster metas, whereas FoF is stronger in control-heavy, slower metas. Also Ponder over FoF allows you to go down to 23 land due to fewer expensive spells + it serves as a manafixer.


Jace, In oder Aus? People had erections for this dude 2-3 months ago and now the love has died off.
I have tested Jace a ton and cut him cause I tended to side him out 78% of G2/3. Then again he has won me G1s against aggro-style decks. Bottom line is: matter of taste.


Has Eternal Dragon had his day, and are we now just cycling stupid big decrees?
1 Dragon in the main is OK afaIc. I cut her entirely because she felt a little bit too clunky. And it has been ages since I took someone down with her.


Is there some sort of core that no one disagrees about as I have seen things as janky as oblivion stone?
s.a.


Is disk too slow?
If included, Disk should be a one-of and part of an Enlightened Tutor toolbox.



What would you do to your SB and MD if you wanted to make sure you murdered Dragon Stompy?
MD:
- EE is really good (takes out everything but [Akroma], Slogger, Raiders and Pitdragon)
- Wrath
- STP
- Wish->BEB
- And yes, Disk eats their faces.

SB options:
E.T: tutorable:
2-3 Runed Halo (really good) - that and Wrath is the reason you should get your 2nd basic Plains before getting the 2nd basic Island.
0-1 CoP:Red (obv. good)
0-1 Meekstone
---------------
multiple BEBs usually work fine as well.

Klaus

[Serbitar]

Three color landstill with 5+ basics pretty much murders Dragon Stompy anyway. If you can fetch just once you don't even care about Blood Moon, because there is usually a basic (or a Dragon) in your hand. The rest of DS pretty much dies to Wrath/EE/Humility without many problems.

Sure, DS can screw you every once in a while with a first turn moon on the play, but from my experience that's rare. I usually board nothing for the match, when you have BEBs or Halos, board those.

[NQN]

Konsultant recently had succes with a list with 4 Vindicates MD. Could you tell us if they are worth more testing or if you´d just throw them out?

[Citrus-God]

Konsultant recently had succes with a list with 4 Vindicates MD. Could you tell us if they are worth more testing or if you´d just throw them out?

Maybe... It might lose some value when decks start complimenting 3cc cards into their deck. White Thresh mildly has through Oblivion Ring or Krosan Grips, Moon Thresh has said Blood Moons, and Black Thresh has Sea Drake or Krosan Grips. Also, there are decks like It's the Fear which sports a copy of VShackles, Eternal Witness, 3 Pernicious Deeds and a playset of Intuitions, which is probably the hardest match-up to play properly against out of the above mentioned decks.

[konsultant]

Konsultant recently had succes with a list with 4 Vindicates MD. Could you tell us if they are worth more testing or if you´d just throw them out?

I was happy to see Vindicate all day long, I actually only lost one game during the entire tournament at Hadley. It's almost the same list I have been running just minus the 2x Humility and 2x Krosan Grip and put in 4 Vindicate's. Fixing the Mana Base to include the basic Swamp was incredibly useful.

I went 2-0 against It's the Fear in round 5, with 4x Vindicate and 3xx EE it's hard for them to keep counterbalance in play. Not to mention they have to resolve it first of all and 1 Extirpate can force them to shuffle away a 3 caster they may have been keeping on top of thier deck.

That match up is a control mirror but Landstill seems to have a favorable match, I've only played it 3 times and I am 3-0 against the deck, 2 of those wins being against Gearhart.

[electrolyze]

May I see your full list konsultant? I'm really interested in a landstill build with vindicate, cause I really like that card:laugh: .

[Waikiki]

check out the top 8 decklist thread.

@Konsultant. didn't you ever miss the humility? Or thought about running A ruins for EE softlock? I've been having the problem being close to decked aswell.

Also Im unsure about the boarding plan. when do certain cards come in (the planeswalker) and what exactly goes out for the other cards?

[Citrus-God]

@Konsultant. didn't you ever miss the humility? Or thought about running A ruins for EE softlock? I've been having the problem being close to decked aswell.

When playing the deck, I've always felt that whenever I get Academy Ruins on players, I was already winning. Most games I finished against Threshold nowadays doesn't require me to use Academy Ruins/EE as a win condition because I just have a better deck to begin with.

I might run Dust Bowl, but Dreadstill and Landstill mirrors are becoming more popular in my meta as well as maindecked Treetop Villages; so in those slots, I ran 3 Wastelands instead because it deals with randomness like Stronghold and Ruins and still destroys things like opposing Factories or Treetop Villages to ensure that I win the Standstill war.


Also Im unsure about the boarding plan. when do certain cards come in (the planeswalker) and what exactly goes out for the other cards?

I usually board out Humilities for Ajani in certain match-ups. For example, if Konsultant were to be using his 4 Vindicate build, I'm sure he sides 2-4 of Vindicate copies out for Ajanis and maybe two other cards. Personally, I'd side out 2 Vindicates for 2 Ajanis only. I don't side Ajani in against Counterbalance Thresh though, because it's Counterbalance that matters, not staying alive.

Against Vial Goblins, I only have experience playing with Cunning Wish against it.

[mossivo1986]

As some of you might know I play 4c_wish_still "der, and wasteland's build" for the most part.

Anyways its been a LONG time since i've played traditional u/w still. Can someone tell me what the advantage of playing 2 color is again besides for the obvious its easier to control and keep your colors flowing against bloodmoon ect.

I also would like to know what your sb is citrus. If your sticking ajanji in after board in some matchups does pulse exist?

Whats the ichorid matchup like for u.w
whats the goblins matchup?

I think rdw if favorable right, so is the basic list of landstill good matchups. D stompy cant be terrible like right at 50-50 or worse for them I would think.

[Citrus-God]

Anyways its been a LONG time since i've played traditional u/w still. Can someone tell me what the advantage of playing 2 color is again besides for the obvious its easier to control and keep your colors flowing against bloodmoon ect.

That's basically it. Also, imo, it's a myth that 4c Landstill has a better game against Stax solely because of Deed. IMO, the only reason why both decks have favorable match-ups against Stax is because of MM and Return to Dust.


I also would like to know what your sb is citrus. If your sticking ajanji in after board in some matchups does pulse exist?


1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ajani Goldmane

I don't see Ichorid much anymore, so this is why my Sideboard looks like this. Also, i can prepare for decks like Imperial Painter much more effectively. Also, Krosan Grip is amazing.



Whats the ichorid matchup like for u.w

No much different; use Meddling Mages to chant Therapy and/or Ray of Revelation, use Runed Halo to protect yourself from Ichorid and/or Therapy, and Extirpate Bridges.


whats the goblins matchup?


Easy. Counter Aether Vial, and you basically win. Heard the bigger guys like Ringleader, Matron, and SCG. Also, dont counter Matron if you only have one BEB and the opponent has a grip in his hand; chances are, he's baiting for Ringleader or SCG. Just use BEB to gain tempo so you spend another turn to find a way to turn the game to your favor. Also, if you know they play Price of Progress, especially save that BEB.


I think rdw if favorable right, so is the basic list of landstill good matchups. D stompy cant be terrible like right at 50-50 or worse for them I would think.

Rewrite that, it seems a little hard to understand before the Dragon Stompy part.

Dragon Stompy is easy, don't even worry much about it. Just keep Chalice, Blood Moon effects, and 3Sphere from resolving early; this is how you take advantage of your deck's quality over Dragon Stompy's.

[mossivo1986]

That's basically it. Also, imo, it's a myth that 4c Landstill has a better game against Stax solely because of Deed. IMO, the only reason why both decks have favorable match-ups against Stax is because of MM and Return to Dust.



1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ajani Goldmane

I don't see Ichorid much anymore, so this is why my Sideboard looks like this. Also, i can prepare for decks like Imperial Painter much more effectively. Also, Krosan Grip is amazing.




No much different; use Meddling Mages to chant Therapy and/or Ray of Revelation, use Runed Halo to protect yourself from Ichorid and/or Therapy, and Extirpate Bridges.



Easy. Counter Aether Vial, and you basically win. Heard the bigger guys like Ringleader, Matron, and SCG. Also, dont counter Matron if you only have one BEB and the opponent has a grip in his hand; chances are, he's baiting for Ringleader or SCG. Just use BEB to gain tempo so you spend another turn to find a way to turn the game to your favor. Also, if you know they play Price of Progress, especially save that BEB.



Rewrite that, it seems a little hard to understand before the Dragon Stompy part.

Dragon Stompy is easy, don't even worry much about it. Just keep Chalice, Blood Moon effects, and 3Sphere from resolving early; this is how you take advantage of your deck's quality over Dragon Stompy's.


holy crap I didn't think of it last night but ajanji with mishra's factory is like insanely cool "and techy" you basicly spend no mana and a divinity counter to swing at them for 3 haha, or four if you really are inclined. Thats just neat.

Anyways thanx for the input on the deck, I am very curious to see u/w in action against a variety of matchups.

I would like to point out that I don't use return to dust in my sideboard. I use seed spark, but then again i'm four color and I also run deed. Runed halo seems like it gives you better matchups against a field of decks, but I simply have no space for it. I've been trying to squeeze beb in and thats tough enough even with a small wishboard. I will pm you with a list if you'd like.

[Citrus-God]

holy crap I didn't think of it last night but ajanji with mishra's factory is like insanely cool "and techy" you basicly spend no mana and a divinity counter to swing at them for 3 haha, or four if you really are inclined. Thats just neat.

It also gives your guys vigilance, which allows you to be Aggressive in a losing position.



I would like to point out that I don't use return to dust in my sideboard. I use seed spark, but then again i'm four color and I also run deed. Runed halo seems like it gives you better matchups against a field of decks, but I simply have no space for it. I've been trying to squeeze beb in and thats tough enough even with a small wishboard. I will pm you with a list if you'd like.

To be honest, I like Krosan Grips more; if a player starts playing boarding Teeg against you, you board Grips in so you can counter Counterbalance then proceed to kill Teeg.

Runed Halo is alright, I wouldn't play Runed Halo over a card like BEB though to be honest.

As for fitting BEBs into the Wishboard, try and fit at least like 3 copies. They're helpful against so much. In those slots, you could also try Spell Snare.

[b4r0n]

This may have already been discussed, but is there any particular reason why Humility is considered to be a better choice than Moat? I understand that Humility has better synergy with DoJ and is pretty effective in slowing down most decks. However, Moat just seems more powerful. Am I missing something?

Vindicate seems interesting. Its flexibility might make up for the unfortunate fact that it's a sorcery. Ajani, on the other hand, seems clunky and slow against the decks you'd want it for. Actually, now that I think about it... what decks DO you want it for?

[Joon]

This may have already been discussed, but is there any particular reason why Humility is considered to be a better choice than Moat? I understand that Humility has better synergy with DoJ and is pretty effective in slowing down most decks. However, Moat just seems more powerful. Am I missing something?


Humility has also great synergies with Manlands, making them the biggest Critters on the Field (yep, they are 2/2, check out the Thread in the Rules Forum if you don't believe me). Moat + Manlands sucks - you need to play suboptimal cards like Faerie Conclave to win through Moat.
Humility also hinders utilitycritters from being gay (CiP Triggers, the Carddraw effect of Confidant...). Vial Goblins will ramp a Vial to 5 and burn you with GangBang Commander to death, against Humility they have to overextend (every deck has to overextend if it wants to win under a Humility). If they do so they'll open themselves for Massremoval.

All in all Humility has far more synergies with the whole deck, Moat has none.

[konsultant]

This may have already been discussed, but is there any particular reason why Humility is considered to be a better choice than Moat? I understand that Humility has better synergy with DoJ and is pretty effective in slowing down most decks. However, Moat just seems more powerful. Am I missing something?

Vindicate seems interesting. Its flexibility might make up for the unfortunate fact that it's a sorcery. Ajani, on the other hand, seems clunky and slow against the decks you'd want it for. Actually, now that I think about it... what decks DO you want it for?

Personally with the popularity of Krosan Grip I am finding it better to run zero targets for Grip, I have not missed the Humilities at all and I board in Halo against decks without Enchantment removal.

Vindicate has been a strong card, I won a 50 person event last week and made it to a top 8 split in the forty something event yesterday running 4 of them in the MD.

Ajani is a card that you actually need to play to see how powerful it is.

[fallenphoenix]

I don't know if it belongs into this thread, because the deck shares a lot of components with U/G/b/w-LS and/or ITF, but since it says UW(x) in the topic, here ist the list I have been tinkering around with:

U/W/G-Giftsstill

1 Forest
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
1 utility-land (not sure, perhaps Dust Bowl, Academy Ruins or Stronghold, Lonely Sandbar. For testing I am using a Savannah, to smooth out the manabase)

3 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Decree of Justice

4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Standstill
2 Regrowth

3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

1 Life from the Loam


Imo Gifts is way better than Intuition, if the deck is built around it.
Intuition may be cheaper than Gifts, but Gifts will net you a +1 Cardadvantage at the cost of {1}. The "different cards"-thing doesn't really matter since you have multiple options to cripple your opponent and with Regrowth, Witness and Loam you will always get what you wanted.

Also, Regrowth is an insanely strong card on it's own. It helps you to set up a strong early game with recurred Brainstorm, Spellsnare and Swords.
In the mid-game you can abuse it to achieve sick cardadvantage with multiple Standstills or just recurr a removal-spell or counter, whatever you just need.
In the late game, this is basically a green demonic tutor.

The only thing that is really annoying is that there is no way to fit a Humility into the deck. It would improve Monasteries a lot, but it cripples Witness and Goyf. meh :/

Goyfs are in there, because i don't like going into timeout a lot.
So instead of having to rely on my opponent to play fast, I'd rather pay 1G for a 6/7 and bash face 3 times.
(With Standstill and Explosives [and the fact that you dig them up with Gifts a lot] Goyf is reliably this size :) )
It also helps in the aggro-matchups.


I'd be glad to hear some opinions and suggestions for improvement.

[Ranarion]

Ajani is a card that you actually need to play to see how powerful it is.
How do you board Ajani and against which decks? In my opinion he doesn't look very helpful but I hear much positive about him so I'm very curious how strong he really is.

[TopGun]

How do you board Ajani and against which decks? In my opinion he doesn't look very helpful but I hear much positive about him so I'm very curious how strong he really is.

I am also curious as to what decktypes he gets boarded against, and what comes out for him. I'll definitely play with him to check him out, but I'd like to know WHEN to play him...and HOW. I don't want to mis-side, or mis-play him and because of my mis-handling not see why he is so strong.

Does that make sense?

Thanks,
-TG

[rockout]

I'd also like to see a write-up about Ajani, like the last two posts ask for. I've been playing Landstill for roughly 5-6 months and never even tried any of the planewalkers. They just seem kind of slow. Thanks.

[konsultant]

How do you board Ajani and against which decks? In my opinion he doesn't look very helpful but I hear much positive about him so I'm very curious how strong he really is.

Ajani obviously comes in against Burn and Goyf Sligh, I actually bring it in against anything that runs burn effects, Red/Canadian Thresh for example.

Ajani also comes in wherever you would have boarded in Crucible, Control mirror, 43 Lands/ Aggro Loam or White Stax as examples.

It strengthins your win conditions in the mirror while putting a win condition into play that is usually very difficult for your opponent to get rid, The life gain rivals that of Pulse with much less Mana investment leaving your Mana open to expend on other cards and it provides a one turn win condition against decks that disrupt your mana base that doesn't require a large Mana investment on your part.

Ajani has replaced both Pulse and Crucible in my SB and I don't have any intentions of going back anytime soon.

[FlavaSava]

Do you know if there are any playable cards in SoA?
I dont see any one, maybe the white pw, but anything else?

[gustha]

Do you know if there are any playable cards in SoA?
I dont see any one, maybe the white pw, but anything else?

Actually, I think that there is not. Elspeth is not good looking in this deck, as some have said before, and have explained very well why. I was wondering if Memory Erosion could have found room in landstill, but I think there's no way... Another Limited-suited edition (though a good one), nothing more...

[fallenphoenix]

Ethersworn Canonist looks like a solid replacement for Meddling Mage vs stormbased decks.
As long as you always save a counterspell and don't let them wish/tutor for split-second-removal, they can't even handle it (stuff like Pyrite Spellbomb, Moonglove Extract aside).

Esper Charm could be a multi-functional MD-solution to Counterbalance, Assault or Hoofprints of the Stag, if that happens to appear a lot in your Meta.

Other than that, I don't see a lot of potential for landstill.

[gustha]

Ethersworn Canonist looks like a solid replacement for Meddling Mage vs stormbased decks.
As long as you always save a counterspell and don't let them wish/tutor for split-second-removal, they can't even handle it (stuff like Pyrite Spellbomb, Moonglove Extract aside).

Esper Charm could be a multi-functional MD-solution to Counterbalance, Assault or Hoofprints of the Stag, if that happens to appear a lot in your Meta.

Other than that, I don't see a lot of potential for landstill.

I think that the issue with landstill is that you can't find many pretty solution to many things, but must find very strong solutions to a lot of other problems. Canonist is sure a solid replacemente for meddling vs combo, but not vs burn, e.g., and very little vs sligh. Meddling is not only useful for storm.dec but also for many other MU, and the same is true for runed halo (and ajani, if we want to be honest). Same for esper charm. first of all, the TRIPLE specific color is a cost that we cannot afford if we want to keep our manabase the less exposed to opponent's land disruption as we can, and secondly it has really nothing to say against Cb, since drop@3 are not so uncommon in decks like 3sh, e.g. The best way to deal with cb is still return to dust (which escapes cb due to it's cost), or krosan grip (but there's another landstill, of course), there's no way out, unfortunately...

[fallenphoenix]

it has really nothing to say against Cb, since drop@3 are not so uncommon in decks like 3sh

I really had to figure out what "3sh" is supposed to mean, but i guess you mean Thresh.
If so, I don't think this is a valid point, since most lists run at most 3 cards with CC=3. Even lists that run more (i.e. 4-6) still have issues to find one more often than not.
Also, you shouldn't have problems getting UWB vs lists with CB+Top, since most of them cut the mana-disruption (and rightly so...).

Ofc Return to Dust or Krosan Grip are safer plays if you want to remove CB, but would you maindeck them? Certainly not.
Esper Charm, while not being great in any metagame, it can be a maindeckable choice, and it won't be a dead card at anytime.


But I share the doubts about Canonist, it lacks the versatility of MM vs Decks that dont need to build up for big stormspells.


I almost completely forgot about Relic of Progenitus, definitly worth a look or two.

[gustha]

I really had to figure out what "3sh" is supposed to mean, but i guess you mean Thresh.
If so, I don't think this is a valid point, since most lists run at most 3 cards with CC=3. Even lists that run more (i.e. 4-6) still have issues to find one more often than not.
Also, you shouldn't have problems getting UWB vs lists with CB+Top, since most of them cut the mana-disruption (and rightly so...).

Ofc Return to Dust or Krosan Grip are safer plays if you want to remove CB, but would you maindeck them? Certainly not.
Esper Charm, while not being great in any metagame, it can be a maindeckable choice, and it won't be a dead card at anytime.


But I share the doubts about Canonist, it lacks the versatility of MM vs Decks that dont need to build up for big stormspells.

Yes, it means Thresh (in italy suonds like 3 = "tre" (as you read it) so threshold is 3shold ^^). Maybe we're talking about two different things: ofc return to dust is not a maindeckable card, but i run cunning wish for this ^^. Esper charm could be a good card if you run 3-4 copies of it, but 1 copy (i can't find any other open slot) is definitely useless...so, better FoF at this point... relic worth a look too, it escapes chalice@0, but its first ability does not target a card, and it takes 2 mana to play and activate it (this could be a very little problem, though...)

[rockout]

I like canonist because it's 1W and it disrupts combo, but I can't replace meddling for it because meddling mage can come in the deck for almost any matchup you are facing. Meddling mage on goyf? sure why not. Mage on dread return? Sure why not. Meddling mage on life from the loam or devstating dreams? sure why not.

Let me know what you guys think.

[Media314r8]

What does everyone think of dismantling blow in the SB in place of Return to Dust? It's old school, but I like that its CMC 3 instead of 4, as in the Stax/SD match up, It's much more feasible to have the colored mana, and the life total on turn 4, as DS will rarely ever give you the time/ability to fetch WW if they have wastes or a moon effect. It also, if kicked (though rare) gives you the CA of FoF. I personally like the low CMC and color requirements over RtD, and it does still have the potential to yield CA. (I'm assuming this is why people are running RtD over seed spark or other CMC4 art/enchant removal spells)

[klaus]

What does everyone think of dismantling blow in the SB in place of Return to Dust? It's old school, but I like that its CMC 3 instead of 4, as in the Stax/SD match up, It's much more feasible to have the colored mana, and the life total on turn 4, as DS will rarely ever give you the time/ability to fetch WW if they have wastes or a moon effect. It also, if kicked (though rare) gives you the CA of FoF. I personally like the low CMC and color requirements over RtD, and it does still have the potential to yield CA. (I'm assuming this is why people are running RtD over seed spark or other CMC4 art/enchant removal spells)

I favor D. Blow, too - especially since I came to run 2-3 Ponder (dropping all but 1 FoF) - so the CA aspect does matter more.

[FlavaSava]

I prefer R.t.D. because it removes, which is in many games very important, especially in the mirror game, to disable crucible/academy ruins moves, and it also removes many times 2 enchantments and/or artifacts and it creates also CA.

[Citrus-God]

I favor D. Blow, too - especially since I came to run 2-3 Ponder (dropping all but 1 FoF) - so the CA aspect does matter more.

You only need 1 FoF in the maindeck and another in the SB.

[NQN]

You don´t even need one and I think RtD is the better choice because I ALWAYS remove 2 targets from the game. For example against Enchantress the rfg thing is really important against this perky enchantment which destroys 1 permanent for each I destroy. I can think of many many games which I would have lost without RtD. But I guess that, if you have another style of playing the deck blow might be better.

[klaus]

You don´t even need one and I think RtD is the better choice because I ALWAYS remove 2 targets from the game. For example against Enchantress the rfg thing is really important against this perky enchantment which destroys 1 permanent for each I destroy. I can think of many many games which I would have lost without RtD. But I guess that, if you have another style of playing the deck blow might be better.

The fact of the matter is: You have a certain amount of Enchantress, Stax and the likes in your meta? - Play RtD!
The archetypes above are an exception? - play D. Blow!

[Illissius]

If you see a lot of Enchantress, Stax, and Affinity, then Fracturing Gust would also be worth a look, though obviously the casting cost is difficult. (It even has Disciple-protection built in!)

[proraptor]

maybe there is room for memory erosion in this deck It's really good for example if you have a memory erosion and landstill in to play. You will get a big card advantage and he will mill his own grave everytime he plays a spell.
also the deck had a really good match up against combo decks if memory resolves!

[Ch@os]

A 3cc spell that makes extrem big Goyfs, fast Tombstalker and gets graveyard Combo a big boost.

N1 idea.

Yes play some spells in 20 rounds you are dead, muahahahaha, evil plan, so what do we kick out of this tight list for memory erosion?

[rockout]

I top 8ed at the Grid tournament in Manchester. Only 18 players but a solid player base.

I top 8ed with Geoff Smelski's list from the Syracuse 1k tourney.
-1 Tundra / +1 Academy Ruins
-1 SB Wrath / +1 SB Ajani

Here's my list:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Island
2 [b] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [b] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Round 1:
Ray Meathooks: 0-2: I heard Hibernation Sliver is good. These games proved it to me. I realized now I boarded poorly.

Round 2:
Red Thresh: 1-1-1
Game 1: I lose to a scary goyf.
Game 2: I survive at 1 life after wasting his red source and he later shows the bolt.
Game 3: When time is called I have double decree + humility with nothing staring me down.

Round 3:
Trialbyfire: Dreadstill UGr: 2-0
Game 1: He played standstill and I proceeded to go broken with eternal dragon and double decree. I win with 2 life.
Game 2: I keep a 1 lander and proceed to force and swords two early goyfs and then drop crucible. I then proceed to draw all of my decrees and counterspells/forces. At one point I was at 1 facing down trinket mage with good board position. I swords his mage, he counters it, I decree (3) for enough to block and kill knowing he has trickbind, then animate factory and block. I win at 3 life.

Round 4:
My teammate DJ: Rgb Goblins: 2-0 Thanks teammate even though I did win in three.
Game 1: Goblins do what goblins do.
Game 2: I resolve humility and he has no outs.
Game 3: I draw 3 swords, 3 wraths, and double humility. I win in savage fashion.

Round 5:
Holiday: Tombstalker: 2-0
Game 1: I remember having a million land at the end of the game with humility on the board.
Game 2: I wastelanded him early and resolve Crucible. I drew a million cards off multiple standstills in succession.

Top 8:
Joe: Survival: 0-2. I have no answers to Survival.dec

Props:
A lot of friendly faces
Two top 8's for Team Awesome
Humility being Humility.
People not expecting Ajani
The Grid for being closer than Hadley
First time ever playing the Wrath of Gods I bought 3ish years ago.

Slops:
Trying to krosan grip survival of the fittest with no green source when the turn earlier I plaincycled and fetched a basic plains with savannah in deck.
Scrubbing in the top 8 again.

Congratulations to everyone on their finishes and here's to more legacy in CT in the future.

This is the best version of Landstill I've found. So optimized and fine tuned that it ran well even in the games/matches I lost. A very similar list won the 1k Syracuse tournament run by Geoff Smelski. I would recommend this deck in any meta.

Maybe I'll get quoted somewhere for saying this but counterbalance isn't that good. I never found a time where I wanted it except against countersliver (meathooks) because all their spells are 2. I'd also probably want to see it against aggro loam. When I used to run counterbalance, I would focus solely on getting counterbalance and resolving it without thinking about how to win the game first. It's just me. I'd rather run sweepers (wrath/ee) and fof.

[badjuju]

Hey awesome report.

Is there anything you would change to your list?
Would the inclusion of B have changed your results?
(also, what were your SB strategies?)

[irrelevant]

just looking for some help to clean up my list. it always feels like it needs just a few more counterspells but i don't know what to put in or take out.

38 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ancestral Visions
3 Swords to Plowshears
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spellsnare
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Eternal Dragon

23 Land
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

SB:

3 Sower of Temptation
3 Tormod's Crupt
3 Disenchant
1 Return to Dust
2 Runed Halo
3 Story Circle

[kensook]

klaus, mind if you post your recent list? I'm interested in the changes you have made in your deck since the source tournament.

[NQN]

This is the list I´ve been using while top8ing 4 of 5 played tournaments:
// NAME: uwbcunninglandstill

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [US] Elspeth

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [6E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 4 The Relic from SHards

I´m thinking about adding one more Spotremoval like Diabolic Edict or Condemn to the Main and maybe cutting the last Dragon for a second Elspeth. What do you think about it?

NQN

[klaus]

klaus, mind if you post your recent list? I'm interested in the changes you have made in your deck since the source tournament.

To be honest, I haven't been playing any LS lately.
I'm not a slow player yet there were few events that I didn't end up getting at least one unwanted draw due to the archetypes general slowness.
If I were to attend a tournament tomorrow I'd certainly run 3 Decrees (I was running 2 most of the previous times) and 2 Ponder to find them :wink: .
The next thing I'd be willing to thoroughly test would be Konsultant's Vindicates (I'd consider a max of 3 though).

UWbLS IS still the strongest deck out there imo, so keep up the good work fellas - I'll be back in November, I'll be back in Novembaa.

[Phoenix]

just looking for some help to clean up my list. it always feels like it needs just a few more counterspells but i don't know what to put in or take out.

I haven't tested Elspeth, Knight Errant and i plan to try her; however playing her instead of DoJ is wrong, try something like 2 DoJs, 1 Crucible and 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant, dropping the 2nd crucible and the dragon (or keep the dragon and drop something else...).

You play 11 counters, i don't think you need more...

I'm not convinced about Ancestral Visions, it's a 4th turn card in the best, you should have enough CA and if you need card selection Ponder and SdT are better...

The story circle in your side isn't better as CoP:red? or is used in other matchups?

You may consider Threads of Disloyality over Sower of Temptation (if it's really needed), and maybe Dismantling Blow over Disenchant for CB issues...

:wink:

[raharu]

just looking for some help to clean up my list. it always feels like it needs just a few more counterspells but i don't know what to put in or take out.

Well, why are you playing Ancestral Visions as a three of without the fourth Swords to Plowshares (BIG deal), and not more Fact or Fictions (not such a big deal, but still...)? Considering that cards like Swords to Plowshares are the reason you can let things resolve without shitting your pants, I'd think it would be beneficial, if not somewhat mandatory, to run them as a 4x before running other, questionable card choices. Perhaps it's your slight deficiency in board control cards (2 Humility, 2 Wrath of God, 3 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Engineered Explosives), that make you feel as though you need more counters. Perhaps. It's not like you're running wayyyy to little board control, but it's not as much as some others run (NQN's list on this page runs 4 StP, 3 EE, 2 Humility and 2 WOG), but it's not as much, so perhaps that might be it.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Vedalken Shackles is better than Sower of Temptation here, if not always 100% of the time in Control Decks running >15 Islands and fetchies. It's more board control, it's Card Advantage, it's just generally dandy, and considering that UW 'still doesn't EE for three that often, there really isn't a whole lot of reason not to run it.

I have two questions: First, has anyone played with Vedalken Shackles in Landstill before? If so, how did that pan out? I would think that in UWx Landstill it would be backbreaking against agro, considering that it's both card advantage and an anti-agro tool. It's really strong in MUC, so I would think that it would at least be playable here, and perhaps be stronger here.

Secondly, would playing Lim-Dul's Vault to find singleton Sideboard cards/ Academy Ruins/ to grab a Wrath of God EoT/ etc. be bad? The life loss is obviously a pain, but since people have found the room for Ponder as a 2-of, I'd think that LDV as a 3-of that seriously strengthens the control role of the deck would be... okay. Better than Ponder, at least.

EDIT: You might want to take a look at the discussion about Dust Bowl and Wasteland a few pages back, as well.

[diffy]

Vedalken Shackles


I tested it some time ago and never found it worth the slots I gave it (2-3of) because the only matchup where it really shines in is against those 'random aggro' decks (Zoo, Boros etc.) - against other aggressive decks your manabase will make it too slow as you have anywhere between 30-40% of your manabase being non-Islands* meaning that you won't be able to reliably prevent that Tarmogoyf from bashing you on turn 4 and unreliable control tools will make you randomly loose games which is certainly not what you want: you want to be as consistent as possible.

*: assuming the average manabase would look somewhat like this:
(using the last 4 top1 lists on Deckcheck.net as source for rough statistical data)

22-24 lands
3-4 Mishra's Factory - average: 3.8
0-1 Academy Ruins - average: 0.8
0-3 Wasteland - average: 2.0 (or 1 Dust Bowl if no Wastelands are played)
0-1 Tolaria West - average: 0.6
1-3 Plains - average: 1.6
0-1 Swamp - average: 0.2
0-2 Scrubland - average: 1.2



Secondly, would playing Lim-Dul's Vault to find singleton Sideboard cards/ Academy Ruins/ to grab a Wrath of God EoT/ etc. be bad? The life loss is obviously a pain, but since people have found the room for Ponder as a 2-of, I'd think that LDV as a 3-of that seriously strengthens the control role of the deck would be... okay. Better than Ponder, at least.


Lim-Dûl's Vault is card disadvantage and in your tertiary colour making it bad at fixing your earlygame (land drops + 'flow') which is Ponder's main job so you can't really compare them.
I don't think LDV is worth it at all as you don't need more stuff for the mid- to lategame as you have quite some good outs to win once you got there - now you'd better make sure that you actually do get there and manage to stabilize... LDV doesn't help doing that, Ponder does. Also, LDV is not that great in the mid- and lategame to justify it based on the lategame strength - after getting through the earlygame I'd rather have Fact or Fiction or something similar as that would at least give me the possibility of playing whatever I hit the same turn not giving my opponent the auto-Timewalk of LDV.


As far as new tech is concerned, I've tested Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/9.html) lately and I've been absolutely impressed: he's like a Decree of Justice that doesn't suck before the lategame. The first ability can win games on its own against all those semi-horrible midrange decks that rely on one threat to go all the way by buying you infinite time (e.g. Dragon Stompy, the Rock etc.) and the second ability is great for applying pressure so that your opponent doesn't have infinite time to find whatever he needs to overpower you. The second ability also makes up for him being slower than Decree of Justice in the lategame, at least to a certain extent. The last ability is used rather rarely and doesn't have that great of an impact on the game if you do use it but it's still nice to have as it totally shuts down any possibility of the opponent every decimating your life total via non-evasive beaters.
I've also tested Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard, replacing some Extirpates, and it's worth the slots as it's pretty strong in all matchups where you'd usually bring in the Extirpates while advancing your gameplan (cantrip). Especially the combination of two, not using their second ability, is disgusting against Loam based decks and almost makes up for the loss of the permanence of Extirpate's removal effect.

My current list can be found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgbs8px8_0grhzd6dg) - I'm rather happy with it right now because it plays much more aggressively and is much more active than previous lists which is the direction I want to move the archetype towards.
It does require some getting used to the new play style, but after the initial learning phase I never missed the old feel.

[Phoenix]

Between Vedalken Shackles, Threads of Disloyality and Sower of Temptation the shackles are probably the strongest cards on their own; however considering the meta and the main threat you usually want to get rid of (tarmogoyf) the threads seem to fit better in the side (actually i don't play any control magic effect in my side; if I have to pick one i would choose threads).

I have never considered Lim-Dul's Vault because i don't play a lot of black cards (0 md and 2 sb) and so the LdVs would force me to commit heavily on black.

I still have 0 shards card, but i'll proxy up some Elspeth. I've always played only 1 extirpate in the sb and 3 crypts, i'll try the relic; however i'll start using 2 pr and 1 tc so i can still use tolaria west to get it. However i see that having 2 relics on play and using their 1st ability is something strong... :smile:

I see the point in playing spell snares over counterspells, but it's not a change i would do right now... And i'm still a crucible fan, so i would go 1 crucible 1 dragon instead of 2 dragons... :smile:

[konsultant]

The next thing I'd be willing to thoroughly test would be Konsultant's Vindicates (I'd consider a max of 3 though).


I know it seems wierd but the 4x Vindicate's work the best with my SB strategies and the statistical amount of removal draws I was looking for. It seems to be a trend with my builds on Landstill, just try it out and perhaps it will make more sense when you are actually playing.

[raharu]

I know it seems wierd but the 4x Vindicate's work the best with my SB strategies and the statistical amount of removal draws I was looking for. It seems to be a trend with my builds on Landstill, just try it out and perhaps it will make more sense when you are actually playing.
I feel incredibly retarded, but could you please post your most current version of Vindicate Landstill, konsultant? I dug 10 pages back and I couldn't find it. Also, has anyone had an success with Counterbalance-Still lately?

[kensook]

@raharu,

konsultant's list wasn't posted here, it was listed on deckcheck. Here's the link to it: http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=20070 (I think that's him...)

[konsultant]

@raharu,

konsultant's list wasn't posted here, it was listed on deckcheck. Here's the link to it: http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=20070 (I think that's him...)

Yeah that's me, it's also in the top 8 decklist forum in a few places.

[Ironstickman]

has anyone had an success with Counterbalance-Still lately?

I haven't deveoped any ideas nor played the deck in a torunament since long ago. However, it might be interesting to point out that the tutor-balance strategy is more suitable in a dreadstill UW shell rather than in pure landstill
(high CMC, too much lands). Dreadnought is a tutoreable quick win-con . (just what we lacked before:rolleyes: )

I know this is not the appropiate thread to post a list,so you might consider looking at the most recent UW dreadstill list in that thread and add a couple of tutors:smile: .

[mossivo1986]

Hello all my name is Joel aka Moss,
I have recently been testing Dif's new model of 3C_Wish_Still and had some interesting conclusions. I wanted to share them with this group and get some responses on how you all fealt.

I've as of now tested 3C_Wish_Still approximately 10-15 games and am starting to get an idea of how the deck truly feels. Some things that i've noticed:

*Dif's new model is deffinately fitted around a metagame of decks, and as such I tend to get whomped on by decks that arn't included in that loop. This could be good or bad. So far the decks ive lost against have been a g/w wake deck that was fueled by the obvious wake into large decree, and of course it was under a standstill. I also lost against a heavy creature recursion deck using utility creatures with cc around 3 or so. It was b/w and had a bunch of interesting little synergies, but no real game ender. Bottom line I was really unhappy with the lack of counterspell in these matchups. I often sat with spell snares in hand for too long, and even though losing to random jank isn't really that important, it is still annoying. The one positive side to playing without counterspell is that you have a better curve and that your window for the early and mid games is much easier to fill.

*It's alot more resiliant as a whole to LD wasteland/stifle/ ect. as it's only 3 colors and realisticly is two with a small splash. Sometimes this can be bothersome but generally its not that bad at all. I rarely hit some cards like the new plainswalker "2 of" and also rarely hit wrath "2of" But as a general fact have no issues hitting humility "1 of" or both wishes "2 of". Bottom line I really like the base of the deck. It's much easier to fight the stupidness of legacy ld or resource control decks.

*The deck runs soo many brainstorms! Ponder as a 3 of tends to make my starting or progressive hand have 2-4 brainstorm effects at the beggining of the game. Now add in swords spell snare and maybe a force, and you really have alot of early answers. I actually don't like this. This is because I tend to run out of gas and am basicly relying on a standstill or more mana or a win condition to come up within x turns. Though a really good thing is that the deck runs 3 ee and thus doesn't really get caught with challice for 1 ever. I really like that.

If I haven't indicated it yet, I am very tuned with the four color model DIF played with some changes. So if I say something alittle out of context please, please correct me. I would really like to understand more about the 3 color models.

The largest difference is I feel like overall the change from the 4c to 3c is flexibility. you give up deed, LFTL, and seed spark which are all pretty significant in the four color model for the much less attractive wrath, return to dust, and maybe crucible. To me these are all fantastic cards as well but its like driving a mustang when you could be driving a porshe.

Bottom line this transition into 3 color is difficult and though I see all the theory diff is talking about I will need to continue testing to be sure that this is really the model I would like to play. If anyone has any insight on this model or changes that you've made to 3 color to improve it, let me know. I am all ears.

[klaus]

Welcome to the realm of UWb_LS, Mossivo!
I've been switching between 4 color versions and UWb_LS a lot in the past. The reason I ended up with the latter one is its consistency. The biggest advantage is the mana aspect obviously: You want to able to cast any spell, any time if possible. But there's more to it:

I see you miss your beloved Deed. What I don't get is that you miss cards like Seed Spark and LftL. Return to Dust or even D. Blow really aren't inferior to SP and Crucible (with a tutorable recursion engine, read: Tolaria West/E. Tutor into A. Ruins) is a way stronger setup (lower mana investment, no color requirements beyond U) than LftL shenanigans.
Deed only shines in permanent-heavy environments, while 3 EE (tutorable+ recurrable) and "Wish into Disenchant effect" and Wrath of God definitely suffice for tier1-2 mishmash metas.
You seem to underestimate WoG if you don't like it. In fact it was one of the few cards that I really missed when playing Deedstill.dec. I'm pretty sure more testing will help "convert" you into a true believer:tongue:.

Peace,
Klaus

[mossivo1986]

Welcome to the realm of UWb_LS, Mossivo!
I've been switching between 4 color versions and UWb_LS a lot in the past. The reason I ended up with the latter one is its consistency. The biggest advantage is the mana aspect obviously: You want to able to cast any spell, any time if possible. But there's more to it:

I see you miss your beloved Deed. What I don't get is that you miss cards like Seed Spark and LftL. Return to Dust or even D. Blow really aren't inferior to SP and Crucible (with a tutorable recursion engine, read: Tolaria West/E. Tutor into A. Ruins) is a way stronger setup (lower mana investment, no color requirements beyond U) than LftL shenanigans.
Deed only shines in permanent-heavy environments, while 3 EE (tutorable+ recurrable) and "Wish into Disenchant effect" and Wrath of God definitely suffice for tier1-2 mishmash metas.
You seem to underestimate WoG if you don't like it. In fact it was one of the few cards that I really missed when playing Deedstill.dec. I'm pretty sure more testing will help "convert" you into a true believer:tongue:.

Peace,
Klaus


As I havent gotten to play with it is espeth a real game changer? Dif and I were talking about it in theory but I have not been able to play one as of yet.

[lolosoon]

Actually, when a german magic player is speaking of LandStill, I listen to him closely.


Crucible (with a tutorable recursion engine, read: Tolaria West/E. Tutor into A. Ruins) is a way stronger setup (lower mana investment, no color requirements beyond U) than LftL shenanigans.
(...)
3 EE (tutorable+ recurrable) and "Wish into Disenchant effect" and Wrath of God definitely suffice for tier1-2 mishmash metas.

That's what I like in some Landstill : versatility and flexibility. But, there's always the "danger of cool things" trap lurking around...

So, Klaus, I have one question regarding Uw(b) LandStill. Without deed to blow your own things up, I've tried to sneak some CB//Top in my build (2/2 split).

I'm running 2 E.Tutors(+1 SB) along 2 Cunning Wishes and the possibility of countering any spell from 0 (E.E.) to 4 (Humility) for a single W looks quite potent.

But, to fit all those cards in, I have lowered my countermagic a bit and drop the FoF.

Here's the List :

TopStill
Mana : 23
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Faerie Conclave (without Moat should be Factory #4)
1x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West

Countermeasures : 8
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Counterbalance

Draw and Filter : 10
3x Standstill (must find room for #4)
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jace Beleren (my only 'hard' drawing engine, good with hoofprints. could become Standstill #4)

Tutors : 4
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Cunning Wish

Removal : 11
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
1x Humility
1x Moat (should be Humility #2 I think)
2x Engineered Explosives
0-1x Oblivion Ring (possible swap with Shackles)

WinCons : 4
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Hoofprints of the Stag

Utility : 1
1x Crucible of Worlds
0-1x Veldaken Shackles (possible swap with O.Ring)

Some cards serve multiple purpose obviously, but it feel like the list is too dilluted.

Might I ask you for some advices ?!

[klaus]

TopStill
Mana : 23
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Faerie Conclave (without Moat should be Factory #4)
1x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West

Countermeasures : 8
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Counterbalance

Draw and Filter : 10
3x Standstill (must find room for #4)--------Yep.
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jace Beleren (my only 'hard' drawing engine, good with hoofprints. could become Standstill #4)----He IS good with Moat and Hoofprints. However, beware of the danger of cool things, too :tongue:

Tutors : 4
2x Enlightened Tutor-----------2 MD=none in the SB=better
2x Cunning Wish---------------with an E. Tutor toolbox MD, maybe you can just cut the C. Wish thing for good?

Removal : 11---------------this package seems alright.
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
1x Humility
1x Moat (should be Humility #2 I think)---------I do, too.
2x Engineered Explosives
0-1x Oblivion Ring (possible swap with Shackles)

WinCons : 4
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Hoofprints of the Stag------In the era of Grips, unreliable wincon. I tested it back in the day and never disliked it though..

Utility : 1
1x Crucible of Worlds
0-1x Veldaken Shackles (possible swap with O.Ring)---is OK but slow. Let me know how your testing it went.


Overall your ideas seem OK. Do some testing and let us know. Since your version appears rather clunky I'd cut the Dragon and the C. Wishes for 2-3 Ponder though.
Klaus

[Citrus-God]

-1 Jace Beleren
-1 Moat
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Hoofprints
-1 Shackles
-1 Wasteland
-1 Faerie Conclave


+1 Standstill
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Dust Bowl


Basically, you're running way too many worthless 1-ofs that force you to mull more opening hands than you'd expect to. Wrong answer = dead card. Be more broad and use cards like EE. I know this might contradict WoG, but WoG is more important than Shackles because WoG is vital to your survival specifically. Running more mana is good, and you want at least 25 mana sources.

Dust Bowl > Wasteland. Dust Bowl can be used numerous times without Crucible under Standstill and is really good in the mirror.

[mossivo1986]

Interesting, I disagree with the counter-top idea, but I could be wrong. I have always followed the footing that countertop is made for aggresive decks that need the extra edge in a mirror or in games they need a softlock in order to prevail. As for landstill with countertop that seems like the completely wrong direction to go in. Thats why dreadstill was formulated.

25 mana sources is absolutely correct. I don't know how good crucible is in the 3 color mods, but I do know that in the four color mods its basicly been dropped and dif informed me that hed rather run another dragon over it for early game consistency/ win condition in the late game. I agree with this.

I dont like countertop also in landstill because it follows suite to what you already have against combo/ aggro. Your already kicking the crap out of both of them and the mere fact that you are adding 4 cards that may or may not be effective is kind of flush to me.

[Phoenix]

Using the E-tutor toolbox you can play 3 tutors, drop the 2 wishes and leave 1 oblivion ring MD as an all-around solution. I think you should play standstill #4 and WoG #3. I've never been a fan of hoofprints (and now Krosan Grip is everywhere... :frown: ).

[lolosoon]

Thanks for all the feedback !

@Jace : He has been from stellar to crap (although he's always FoW fodder).
With Standstill your opponent choose when you draw (even if the choice is sometime forced due to Soldier and Assembly worker beatdown) : EOT when you have 6+ cards in hand. It's ok and all 'cause it's card quality and quantity but they're prepared for it.
With jace (it's even better when you control the board with CB) you can generate CA overTime (ie better lateGame). The Epic Control used to run him with Meditate with some success I've eared...
Additionaly, Jace minors the 'on-the-top' drawback of the E.Tutors which is a big plus.
Sometimes I really want to draw into him, but with no way to tutor for the lone 1-of I do think the 4th Standstill is better, sadly.

With Jace gone, Moat is questionnable. And with Moat, Hoofprints (the K.Grip weakness is really revelant) and Conclave are, too.

@the 1-ofs : They weren't a problem cause they're part of the E.Tutor toolbox and are enought powered on their own to put your opponent in serious trouble (see Moat) and are rarely seen in multiples in your opening hand.
I agree they're occasionally the wrong answers at the wrong time so I must found which one is worth the slot. (Per example, 3 E.E is too much with 2-3 ways to tutor into them, so O.Ring//Shackles is an good option that up the 3cc slot for the CB//tutor engine...)
So it needs to be tweaked, and adapted depending of the Meta I suppose.

@DustBowl : I have yet to test the card. Sure it might be better than Wasteland without crucible, but you need to invest waaaay more mana into it, and it looks like it needs crucible for recurring the land sacc'ed, or am I misleading ?

@Cunning Wish : Why drop'em ?! Only because of the already present E.Tutor engine ?! E.Tutor can't get Dust to dust (even though O.Ring is nice vs opposing CB), nor Pulse, blasts and so-on.
I thought UWb 'WishStill' was a competitive archetype mainly due to the wishboard... amIwrong ?


I have no playtest session coming soon, so I'll continue with MWS but for know I concurr the list is overstretched and have some unconsistency issues.
I'll try to put some feedback on my own this week if work (and FableII) doesn't take all my time.


(sorry if my post is a bit messy or ununderstanding. With English not beeing my native language, my train of thoughts is not that easy to translate into)

[Phoenix]

I never said cunning wish is bad... i play 3 of them... however playing both a wishboard and a Etutor toolbox dilutes the deck too much imho... You're trying to have CB+Top, a wishboard and a maindeck toolbox; too many things, you risk to do everything badly... In my deck i have 3 wishes, 1 SB ET and no CB+Top; however i'm happy if somebody tests different approaches to the deck...:wink:

[raharu]

@Cunning Wish : Why drop'em ?! Only because of the already present E.Tutor engine ?! E.Tutor can't get Dust to dust (even though O.Ring is nice vs opposing CB), nor Pulse, blasts and so-on.
I thought UWb 'WishStill' was a competitive archetype mainly due to the wishboard... amIwrong ?

Well, with the Cunning Wishes along with the Maindecked E. Tutors, both causing speed disadvantage and pulling the deck in too many directions, seems... no bueno. Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).

[Citrus-God]

Well, with the Cunning Wishes along with the Maindecked E. Tutors, both causing speed disadvantage and pulling the deck in too many directions, seems... no bueno.

What? No! The point is to drop Humility turn 4, then sit on crappy things deplete your life until you can make a giant DoJ and just win. Having ETutor and Cunning Wishes only advance your game plan. Running ETutors also allow you to board in silver bullets.


Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).

Just run generally versatile cards or just really powerful cards; Humility, EE, and Crucible come to mind. Nothing else more is needed, and we do, it's more than likely Top and Counterbalance.

[raharu]

What? No! The point is to drop Humility turn 4, then sit on crappy things deplete your life until you can make a giant DoJ and just win. Having ETutor and Cunning Wishes only advance your game plan. Running ETutors also allow you to board in silver bullets.

Huh?

Also, boarding in bullets to tutor for seems kinda blah. I mean, what do you tutor for out of the board? Crypt? Whoops, to late. You really shouldn't board in more Humilities, they're MD cards... iDunno.





Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).
Just run generally versatile cards or just really powerful cards; Humility, EE, and Crucible come to mind. Nothing else more is needed, and we do, it's more than likely Top and Counterbalance.

Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...

Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.

Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors). Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly. The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\

[Citrus-God]

Huh?

Also, boarding in bullets to tutor for seems kinda blah. I mean, what do you tutor for out of the board? Crypt? Whoops, to late. You really shouldn't board in more Humilities, they're MD cards... iDunno.

You lose a Humility to Krosan Grip, you tutor up a new one; setting up Counterbalance? Hell ya!

As for silver bullets;

Counterbalance against combo
Null Rod against Affinity, combo
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam



I didnt mention Oblivion Ring here because it sucks against everything post-board.



Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...

Again, why the fuck would I endorse terrible cards like Moat and Oblivion Ring? I told him to cut those cards.

Humility = Bomb

They counter it, you tutor up another one.

EE = versatility

you tutor it up to blow random shit up.

Crucible = mana stabilization

you tutor it because your mana base is fucking horrendous sometimes and being able to get WW simply by playing an Enlighten Tutor is kinda awesome.
Besides that, you can tutor up a win condition when you have Humility established.

Counterbalance = Bomb vs. Combo, Bomb vs. Threshold.

You tutor this up because you happen to have a piece of the countertop combo, or because Counterbalance is just decent against combo.

Nothing more though. And I never said anything else more.


Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.

Who said anything about MD bullets? Humility is a pretty awesome one because it's a creature format. EE is just versatile. Why would you need more flexible answers; you run ETutor because it's a good post-board card.
When I play ETutor, I tend to play it like ATS; you use Enlighten Tutor to find the card that advances your game plan only (Survival of the Fittest, or in this case, Humility), then silver bullets out of the Sideboard.


Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors).

Again, I never said that when I run ETutor, I want to run maindeck silver bullets. Also, Cunning Wish sometimes, sucks, because it takes up your Sideboard space. Playing Cunning Wish against combo compared to ETutor sucks because Cunning Wish only gets you Extirpate. Like that ends the game. ETutor can get you a wide array of silver bullets and by playing multiples, you will force them into eventually overextending turns and resources to answer your bullets thus taking you into a later stage of the game giving you inevitability.


Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly.

Humilities are important, but they arent the main reason to run ETutor. The reason to run ETutor is to be able to execute your game plan properly Game 1, and still be able to maneuver Post-Board without running too many narrow cards in a deck with a wish board present to help you, such as a playset of 4 Hydroblasts and/or Meddling Mages which of course not only offers you raw power but also versatility. The trade-off is the card disadvantage. Of course, if you're already being able to move into midgame which is where your deck has inevitability, then the card disadvantage doesnt matter because by then, your silver bullet stalled for enough time to make the quality of the cards in your hand superior to your opponents and you have the most land drops.



The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\

I'll say this over and over again; Etutor = Doesnt sink much tempo, card quality can be better than card advantage if that card quality used is to advance your game plan. This this case, you have even more ways of advancing your Academy Ruins lock, Crucible lock, and/or just plain Humility resolution.

Cunning Wish is good at doing those things too, but you need more mana to be able to do those things. Also, being able to dodge discard and play around Daze is nice, and ETutor can get around those cards.

Cunning Wish is only for the card advantage spot, but again, when we cast Cunning Wish, being able to resolve Humility pre-board against Thresh is much more important then just casting Extirpate to remove 4 Thresh guys from the game. If we're going to cast Humility, then just running ETutor would just be as efficient.

[raharu]

I agree with all that, I just don't agree with the typical "E. Tutor + singleton bullets" theory. Extra copies of Humility? Yes please. Extra copies of EE? Fuck yeah. More Crucibles? Who doesn't like consistent land drops for infinity? But other crap doesn't make me go :D quite so much.

Looking at that list:
Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?
Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy- Maybe. It's better than nothing, I guess.
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.

In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.

But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.

[Citrus-God]

I agree with all that, I just don't agree with the typical "E. Tutor + singleton bullets" theory. Extra copies of Humility? Yes please. Extra copies of EE? Fuck yeah. More Crucibles? Who doesn't like consistent land drops for infinity? But other crap doesn't make me go :D quite so much.

Like I said; in the maindeck, all you need are those cards.



Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?

Usually, you have to tutor Counterbalance up first. You do this because as long as you flip over a land, they cant play Moxes or LEDs. This buys you time to do other things. Sadly, you're destined to lose pre-board anyways. Post-board is where tutoring for Counterbalance becomes a more sensible maneuver to make.


Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?

I assumed you've never made Top against FT before. Also, TES lives off of 4 Petals, 4 LEDs, and 3-4 Moxes. It would make sense here too, considering it's 20% of their deck and 50% of their mana.


Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.

I forgot to mention Dragon Stompy as well.


Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.

Circle of Protection: Red gets around Blood Moon because the cost is one colorless.



Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.

They're alright. They're meant to only be cast against Ichorids or Tendrils of Agony usually. You can board this in against Thresh if you're boarding Story Circle in.


Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better

CounterbalanceTop is a combo, therefore they need to be assembled in order to be effectively used; Rule of Law can just be tutored up. Once you establish Rule of Law, you go for CounterbalanceTop to protect Rule of Law.



Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?

Silver Bullet. Academy Ruins recurs Needle, so you probably wont need more.


E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?

1-2-of. You run ETutors, remember?


Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.

Crucible can be Powder Keged away. Also, you can still make land drops if Sacred Ground is active.


In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.

Story Circle, Rule of Law, Null Rod, Planar Void, Sacred Ground. Also, Teferi's Moat and Nether Void may become new SB options.


But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.

My list?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (3)
2 [9E] Island (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Savannah
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Moat
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor

[thefreakaccident]

// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (3)
2 [9E] Island (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Savannah
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Moat
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor



The list looks good... I just want to know, why all the two ofs?

It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.

Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.


The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.


The list looks great though, and I will have to test it. :wink:

[Citrus-God]

The list looks good... I just want to know, why all the two ofs?

The midgame technically isn't late game. The 2-ofs help here. DoJ is for the late game, Cunning Wish is for the midgame, the Humilities are ftw, and the ETutors turns everything into a playset.


It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.

It truly does need more time. So far, the deck seems somewhat perfect thus far. The Sideboard at the moment, however, is extremely questionable.


Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.

EE. Also, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgbs8px8_0grhzd6dg, two black sources just to run EE and Extirpate.



The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.

1 Counterbalance is fine. So far, nothing feels clogged, and nothing feels out of place. Every single card does something, and the ETutors becomes something useful depending on the phases that are taking place within the game.

[klaus]

@Citrus-God:
I find the idea of an E.T. toolbox-delux fancy. tbh though, even mediocre combo decks are going to feast on your soul if all SB hate you're putting in their way is 1 Halo and 1 Rule of Law (even if you ran 12 E.T.s).

Seriously, I've had trouble beating combo (FT, Solidarity) with 4 Meddling Magi and 2 Runed Halo (1 E.T., 1 Halo main). Also, I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.

Klaus

[mossivo1986]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with soul feasting as he runs countertop, but I don't see how hes get them consistently early enough then wish for something of relevance. I have REALLY come to appreciate meddling mage, and I think it could be a mistake not to run it.

[klaus]

-EDITED-
I've done some testing on Vindicates and they're..well, really good. I still doubt they're enough to replace WoG entirely, which is why I added 2 Edicts to the MB. Testing will tell, whether my changes to the officially agreed upon core list marks an improvement or not..

Browsing the webs for inspiration and structuring some brainfarts, I came to the following list (beware: no WoG, no Cunning Wish o0):

Uwb Landstill_5.0

4 Standstill
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
2 CS
3 Spellsnare.................the CS Snare split seems aight to me.
1 Ponder
3 Vindicate...................multi-purpose thing, pseudo-WoG
3 EE
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
2 Smother.........................making up for the lack of WoG
(36)

1 Dustbowl
6 Fetch
3 Sea......................I cut the 4th Tundra in favor of the 3rd Sea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
(24)

SB
3 Mage
2 Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus....I've done little testing with it. Sofar it rocks.
2 Extirpate
3 BEB
1 Wrath of God

Let me know what you think.

[rockout]

Hey awesome report.

Is there anything you would change to your list?
Would the inclusion of B have changed your results?
(also, what were your SB strategies?)

Against meathooks I boarded out standstill and boarded in meddling mage + e tutor to find humility, because game 1 I played EE at 2 three times and wrath once and lost to hiberation sliver.

Against red thresh, I boarded in runed halo for wrath and ajani for krosan grip (he didn't show counterbalance).

Against dreadstill, I boarded in ajani/crucible just to give me more win conditions. All you have to do in this matchup is force them to play threats. They can't recur their man lands, so you sit under humility and decree when they are tapped out.

Against goblins, He smashed me game 1 like it's supposed to happen. I boarded in runed halo and boarded out my krosan grips. Runed halo on piledriver and sgc can win you the game. Game 3, I boarded in ajani for ee because I felt wrath and swords was enough to win it for me. Game 3, I drew of hand of wog, wog, humility, humility, land, land, land. I thought to myself, "Man I should play with my hand on the table," so I did.

Against Tombstalker, I boarded out eternal dragon for ajani for a better win condition. I swung with an 18/18 vigilance guy game 2.

Against Survival, I board out force, counterspell, standstill for ajani, meddling mage, krosan grip, runed halo. Don't ask me why, I have no board stragety for survival and wished pithing needle was there to be my savior. I did get my opponent to 6 twice using only a single mishra's factory and 3 swords in my opening hand.

I really wish I had pithing needle in the board. I think I could have won the meathooks matchup if I could land a needle on hibernation sliver and actually kill his guys with wrath/ee. Now that I think about it, needle on hiberation sliver doesn't help me in that matchup, maybe I need wrath of god with split second, anyone have some I can buy?

This is an addition post to my Grid top 8 one page back. I hope this helps.

[rockout]

@Citrus-God:
I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.


Meddling Mage and Runed Halo are tied in my book for first. Both are extremely solid and versatile which is why I run each as a 3-of in my side board. Game one against combo it will come down to if you have the force or not.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus-God:
I find the idea of an E.T. toolbox-delux fancy. tbh though, even mediocre combo decks are going to feast on your soul if all SB hate you're putting in their way is 1 Halo and 1 Rule of Law (even if you ran 12 E.T.s).

Seriously, I've had trouble beating combo (FT, Solidarity) with 4 Meddling Magi and 2 Runed Halo (1 E.T., 1 Halo main). Also, I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.

Klaus

Again, same thing... Create some kind of lock thing. But if you guys feel that Meddling Mages are the beez-kneez against Combo, just take out four silver bullets from my Sideboard and replace them in there with Mages.

@mossivo1986: You should be boarding in other things as well; Needles for Top, Null Rod for mana sources, Rule of Law, Runed Halo... and such.

[DuKeLiO]

I really wish I had pithing needle in the board. I think I could have won the meathooks matchup if I could land a needle on hibernation sliver and actually kill his guys with wrath/ee. Now that I think about it, needle on hiberation sliver doesn't help me in that matchup, maybe I need wrath of god with split second, anyone have some I can buy?


Pithing Needle does few against Hibernation Sliver, beacuse all the other Slivers named Crystaline, Sinew,... have the hability itself. Sure Hibernation will die, but all the other won't.

[Elric]

I've done some testing on Vindicates and they're..well, really good. I still doubt they're enough to replace WoG entirely, which is why I added 2 Edicts to the MB. Testing will tell, whether my changes to the officially agreed upon core list marks an improvement or not..

Browsing the webs for inspiration and structuring some brainfarts, I came to the following list:

Uwb Landstill_5.0

4 Standstill
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
2 CS
3 Spellsnare.................the CS Snare split seems aight to me.
1 Ponder
3 Vindicate...................multi-purpose thing, pseudo-WoG
2 EE.............................probably should be 3 without WoG?
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice........considered Elspeth, she needs testing though. Note: Decree enjoys WoG being gone.
1 Crucible
1 Enlightened Tutor........alongside ET#2 (SB) creates a mini toolbox
2 Edict.........................making up for the lack of WoG
(36)

1 Dustbowl
6 Fetch
3 Sea......................I cut the 4th Tundra in favor of the 3rd Sea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
(24)

SB
4 Mage
1 Halo........................should suffice with 2 ETs
1 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus....I've done little testing with it. Sofar it rocks.
1 Engineered Plague....again. Toolbox.
3 BEB
1 Pithing Needle..........I know. You don't get to see many Needles in LS SBs these days but it's simply one of the best SB cards out there (there are like 100+ good targets) Since I dropped the wish board I have the room to add it as a 1-of.
1 Enlightened Tutor........ Citrus God would agree. hehe.
1 Serenity (?)...............yeah humm. I like it? :smile:

Let me know what you think.

Wouldn't be Smother the better Edict?
Elspeth imo should replace one Decree.
I dislike the E.Tutor in the Mainboard, it could be the third Explosive.

My 2 cents

[klaus]

Wouldn't be Smother the better Edict?
Elspeth imo should replace one Decree.
I dislike the E.Tutor in the Mainboard, it could be the third Explosive.

Agreed.
Agreed.
Sort of agreed.

[mossivo1986]

Agreed.
Agreed.
Sort of agreed.

I don't know about the espeth comment as I havent seen it in action, but the theory behind it makes it worth playing as a 2 of and doj as a 2 of just because its doj.

[rockout]

Pithing Needle does few against Hibernation Sliver, beacuse all the other Slivers named Crystaline, Sinew,... have the hability itself. Sure Hibernation will die, but all the other won't.

I realized that as I posted it. I should have gone back and changed so I would look like a retard.

I meant to pithning needle for the survival matchup as well, but forgot.

[NQN]

I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:


// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance


Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?

[rockout]

Please post a tournament report NQN about your side event. I really like your list. Seems a little packed with 1-ofs, but seems effective nonetheless.

[klaus]

@NQN:
Even with ET (takes too long to set it up) a singleton Top is not enough to run this disruption package successfully. I figure oftentimes you'll find yourself with a topless (:wink:) CB that just doesn't do its job properly.

On a different note: 4 BEB? I figure Burn can be a pain - but that's when Wish->P.O.T.fields comes in.
I like Relic, too but cutting 1 for a wishable Extirpate seems smart nonetheless.
Remember Extirpate is one of the main reasons the whole Wish thing was established.

Hope that helps.
Klaus

[NQN]

Well, you only have 2 Cunning Wishes and the R/x Beatz matchup is always really close postboard->Without a Wish we usually loose. Blue Blast are so versatile. They come in against any R/x Deck, Goblins and Dragon Stompy. I like multifunctional cards. Thats why I play a Playset. Thats the only SB card which stayed a long time there now. Extirpate isn´t that great anymore, I actually never wish for it. I think cutting it isn´t that bad because against loam&Ichorid Relic is better and I never lost the Mirror until today (you know, eternal players in germany...). Maybe that Counterbalance thing wasn´t that great and I should just try to ignore ANT. What about those changes:
MD
- Top
+Counterspell
SB
-4 CB
-1 Blue Blast/E.Tutor
+3 Meddling mage
+2 Ajani

Greetz,
NQN

PS: Looking forward to meet you in Berlin, Klaus ;)

[klaus]

- Top
+Counterspell
SB
-4 CB
-1 Blue Blast/E.Tutor
+3 Meddling mage
+2 Ajani

Me liky :)
-2 Ajani.....................don't forget Ajani is the POTfields of non-Wish-LS.dec
+1 Pulse of the Fields
+1 M.Mage (=4)


PS: Looking forward to meet you in Berlin, Klaus ;)Dito!

[NQN]

Why would you play a second PoTf instead of Ajani`? Ajani shines against Loam&Control too. I don´t really get that step ;)

[klaus]

Why would you play a second PoTf instead of Ajani`? Ajani shines against Loam&Control too. I don´t really get that step ;)

Slight misunderstanding.
It's actually only 1 POTfields or 2 Ajanis (..in a non-Wish version).

[DuKeLiO]

Only 1 PotFields seems too random for a no-Wish build. You have to get lucky for have it quickly against burn or Tarmosligh. So I prefer to play Cunning Wish maindeck, or play redundant copies of Ajani or Pulse in the sideboard. Ajani is better for this use, beacuse it is more versatile.

[gustha]

I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:


// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance


Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?

Been running a similar MD since i put up this deck last year, made many changes and always got back to this, i can't help it. Some differences (could be meta calls):
-1 island +1 sea (i think i'll cut the 4th tundra for the 3rd island)
-1 top + 1 counterspell
-1 explo + 1 nevynirral's disk (always needed a mass destruction engine, first i used akroma's vengeance, but disk is recurrable and, if elspeth remains long enough, it's indistructible too. and since the destruction of the disk is not a cost but and effect...we sometimes have the chance to have an every-turn-board-sweeper)
+e tutor as 61st card (this tutor replaces the 3rd wish. in fact, diminishing the number of instants in the board -for mage and halo, due to relevant increasing of combo decks- has brought me to reduce the number of the wishes).

The sb (note that there's no relevant presence of aggro loam) looks like:

1 Potf
1 beb
3 extirpate (should i consider relic? are they good in mirror mathces? does they rock against 3sh? are they worth to replace extirpate in side, if combo spread?)
1 tormod's crypt (e-tutorable: still not convinced to substite it with relic)
1 e tutor (the second, to board in in case of necessity, and whishable)
1 aegis of honor
1 cop red
1 plague (aegis + cop to escape needle against burn, plagye + cop against goblins)
3 mage
2 halo

Suggestions?

[Adan]

I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:


// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance


Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?

Funny, why are you playing black manasources at all? Black got watered down to 0 in your build. And Extirpate was a vital card for the wishboard to win resource-wars against other control-decks and/or aggrocontrol..

[Jaiminho]

Funny, why are you playing black manasources at all? Black got watered down to 0 in your build. And Extirpate was a vital card for the wishboard to win resource-wars against other control-decks and/or aggrocontrol..

Engineered Explosives? It could be any color, I guess.

[kensook]

@DuKeLiO,
What you said was exactly what Klaus meant. Just to point it out.

Anyways, how has Elspeth been doing for everyone? Is the split between 2 DoJ and 1 Elspeth good now? For me, I still run WoG so Elspeth seems to be good, but how about for builds that run vindicate instead of WoG (like Klaus')?

[rockout]

I run a 2 DoJ 2 Elspeth split because I was lucky enough to rip one the night before the Hadley in a draft. I didn't cycle decree the entire tournament because Elspeth would come down t4ish and speed up my fairly slow clock. I run 2 WoG main deck and 1 sideboard. It seems to work out just fine. The -8 ability on Elspeth may not seem relevant but in long matches it is a huge breaker in an already solid late game deck.

I run UWg with 2 main deck krosan grip and 1 sb krosan grip.

[NQN]

Well now, I played the following list at the first Sidevent of PT Berlin and went 4-3 which isn´t worth any report at all:
// NAME: uwbcunninglandstill

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

I´ll just shortly sumup my matchups and why I lost/won them
R1: Rock - BYE 2-0
R2: Forgot 2-0
R3: "Klaus" with Urw Dreadstill - close match, crucible won both games 2-1
(Best match of the day/tournament for me)
R4: R/w Goblins 1-2 Lost g2 because of missing spotremoval and g3 because of colourscrew after some mulligans.
R5: Survival - BYE 2-0
R6: Ichorid 1-2 G1 is obv, g2 I have 4 Relics and g3 he has Unmask for Tutor, Needle for EE and a turn ~5 kill with me drawing more lands from the top.
R7: Might Quinn - Autoloss 0-2 He just has every of my wincons twice or often.

At the 113 Player tourney at Saturday a friend and I switched our decks so that I played Rgw Zoo and he landstill. I finished 12. with 6-2. How bad is this deck? I just got bad matchups and mirrors. I once lost to burrenton forge tender with nomadn en kor >.<
Well, to sum up:

Props
- Meet a lot of really cool people
- Got about 10 asian cards for landstill
- drunken girls at our hostel
- 2 germans top8 at the mainevent
- Zoo performing better than landstill
- Klaus for winning 30 duals

Slops:
-Ichorid,Quinn and Goblins for beeing asshole decks ;)
- The site for beeing to small
- Zoo
- Klaus for NOT playing the "Win a trip to worlds" Sealed which was 4free!

Greetings,
NQN

[rockout]

This is the list I ran at the last Hadley Event:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt

I got smashed by Goblins. Hands down smashed. Even post board with Runed Halo and Ajani, granted I never saw four mana in any of my goblin matchups, wasteland ftl. I'll have to add 4x Blue Elemental Blasts for The Mana Leak at the end of the month.

I need help to find a way to either add more blue cards to the main deck or find a better answer than Fact or Fiction (I know, I know). The deck plays so well all the time. I was able to beat Dragonstompy G2 and G3 at Hadley, but scrubbed out losing to two straight goblin decks match 5 and 6. I lost a game with 3x Mishra's Factory and 1x Academy Ruins with all four Brainstorms in my hand. Help me clean up my main board and sideboard. Any advice will help.

[Citrus-God]

Cut Crucibles and the Tormod's Crypts for 3-4 Relic of Progenitus. I'd say turn the SB into

1 Krosan Grip
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Runed Halo
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast


If you think about it, every match-up you board Crucible of Worlds in against, you're also boarding Ajani in. The other difference is that Ajani is doing more than Crucible because instead of trying to develop your position you're winning. Also, Avatar tokens are bad ass, and they beat the shit out of Aggro Loam.

Relic is awesome. It nurfs Goyfs and kills Terravores. Also, against Thresh, you don't have to board Humilities out anymore; just board in Halos and Relics and make their Krosan Grips look bad. As the game drags on, the better chance you have of winning because DoJ is just that good. So drop those Halos and Relics and EEs and Humilities and make the whole board gummed up.

Also, WoGs are looking worse and worse. Gaddock Teeg is going to do some damage on you. Which is why Grip, Swords, Halo, Relic, and others are so good.

[rockout]

I like your choices. Gaddock Teeg is a butt wiping in itself. The only answer I have is Counterspell, Force of Will or Swords. I'll just pray to never see it again.

[Citrus-God]

I like your choices. Gaddock Teeg is a butt wiping in itself. The only answer I have is Counterspell, Force of Will or Swords. I'll just pray to never see it again.

The other plan against Teeg is to make their Threshold creatures look small and meek using Runed Halos and Relics. Once you hit 5-7 mana, just surprise block with soldier tokens. If they refuse to block with Teeg, take down a Goose or Goyf as a prize.

Post-board, you should pre-set your EEs to bait Grip and use your Grips to counter CB so you can cast your answer cards like Relic, Halo, and Swords.

[mossivo1986]

Interesting points about relic, do you have any saved logs on mws where relic/ rune made the difference? If so id like to see them in a private messege so I could see the impact they had.

[rockout]

Runed Halo has saved me against Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Seismic Assault, Tendrils, Tarmagoyf... I really think it's the real deal. I've never played with Relic, but shrinking a Tarmagoyf or killing a Terravore seems good to me. One mana plus another mana to activate makes it slightly worse when you need to crypt Ichorid's graveyard turn 1, but I can't think of another time where Crypt is better than Relic. Even better, It cantrips for a business spell.

[mossivo1986]

But is relic truly better then pate. Pate gives you answers to combo that relic doesn't even touch. DIf's model plays relicx2-3? and one pate. I dont think thats the right count but I can deffinately be wrong, as quite often from not I am.

Either way im quite interested to see if taking out mage for rune would be a cost effective measure that also proves just as good in other matchups.

[Wargoos]

But is relic truly better then pate.
It serves other purposes.
It's just so much better against Loam-based Decks like ITF or Aggro Loam, makes big Goyfs small(Tarmodude), or even kills them(Terravore).
SO in conclusion it's of course bad vs. Storm Combo (except for the comboplayer goes the iggyroute) but still helps against Dredge.


DIf's model plays relicx2-3? and one pate. I dont think thats the right count but I can deffinately be wrong, as quite often from not I am.
If DIf's list plays Cunning Wish those are definitly the right numbers.
Being still able to wish for the pate g1 is often quite good, because you can play landstill the way it should be played - reactive. The Pate allows you to adapt to the situation - and since the relic's out I barely board the pate in.


Either way im quite interested to see if taking out mage for rune would be a cost effective measure that also proves just as good in other matchups.
I don't want to miss any of those in my side, so i wouldn't replace them with each other.

Hope i wasn't to confusing =D

[Mister Agent]

Cut Crucibles and the Tormod's Crypts for 3-4 Relic of Progenitus. I'd say turn the SB into

1 Krosan Grip
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Runed Halo
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast


If you think about it, every match-up you board Crucible of Worlds in against, you're also boarding Ajani in. The other difference is that Ajani is doing more than Crucible because instead of trying to develop your position you're winning. Also, Avatar tokens are bad ass, and they beat the shit out of Aggro Loam.

Relic is awesome. It nurfs Goyfs and kills Terravores. Also, against Thresh, you don't have to board Humilities out anymore; just board in Halos and Relics and make their Krosan Grips look bad. As the game drags on, the better chance you have of winning because DoJ is just that good. So drop those Halos and Relics and EEs and Humilities and make the whole board gummed up.

Also, WoGs are looking worse and worse. Gaddock Teeg is going to do some damage on you. Which is why Grip, Swords, Halo, Relic, and others are so good.

I would have to agree about your reasoning with Ajani vs Crucible arguement. Ajani is in fact better since he is difficult to kill for most decks and fits the role of being a mid/late game power on the defensive and offensive ends.

Agreed upon your Relic statement as well. Relic plays a role similiar to Humility against creatures like Tarmogoyfs and Terravores.

Also looking at your sideboard it seems decent for the current environment. Meddling Mage supplemented with Runed Halo definitely helps the Nauseam Tendrils matchup. While Hydroblast, Relic of Progenitus, Runed Halo, and Ajani are all utilizing for Aggro Loam. Considering having a fair balance between threats and utility cards that can potentially cut off the integral engine of Loam provides you a chance to win this matchup.

[Frid]

Heya there control friends.

First of all ill post my list so u can give me your opinion with a better point of view.

Name Qty Sideboard
Flooded Strand 4
Polluted Delta 2
Wasteland 3
Tundra 4
Plains 2
Underground Sea 2
Island 3
Mishra's Factory 4
Crucible of Worlds 1
Fact or Fiction 2 1
Decree of Justice 2
Cunning Wish 3
Wrath of God 3
Engineered Explosives 2
Humility 2
Brainstorm 4
Force of Will 4
Counterspell 4
Standstill 4
Swords to Plowshares 4
1 Free slot MD for a alternative win condition / utility.
Blue Elemental Blast 0 1
Enlightened Tutor 0 1
Extirpate 0 4
Dismantling Blow 0 1
Slaughter Pact 0 1
Pulse of the Fields 0 1
Circle of Protection: Red 0 1
Meddling Mage 0 4
Lands: 24, Spells: 36, Crt: 0 60 15

The list is a standart uwb landstill i think, well the problem is that i am looking for an alternative win condition becouse i dont want to loose due to double extirpate.

I dont like eternal dragon becouse i use to finish the games with humility on board so dragon is not more than a fetchland that costs 2 to activate.

Then i did read some landstill threads here and in some other forums and i saw some pleople runing ajani or elspeth. I like the idea of runing one of those but i cant decide wich one is better. I think ajani is better becouse the second hability "combo" with decree and mishras and the last one is a fast finisher but i like also the hability of elspeth to create tokens and block tarmos with it and the last one being your tokens undestructible.

Any suggestion? thx for your help

[Frid]

Can you explain why? Id apreciate a deeper explanation so i can understand better

[rockout]

Elspeth helps you to win games much quicker. Most decks only out to getting rid of Elspeth is to attack it. I know from personal experience that Humility + Elspeth is ultimate board position against any deck wanting to win through attacking. Elspeth is able to chump block forever with it's +1 put a win condition into play. Besides flying/trample, most creatures can't swing through a 1/1 and while your opponent finds an answer for Elspeth you proceed to win the game on the back of giving your man-lands/tokens +3/+3 and flying.

I'll take 2 and run them main deck.

[gustha]

Another good things is that legacy is not use to deal with planeswalkers. So the only ways to get rid of a walker are: vindicate, oring, attack, burn. Planeswalkers give us the chance to be more aggressive on the board while being not easily hatable (and so they need less protection, especially elspeth since she protects herself). This is the reason why i run MD 2 Elspeth 1 ajani (pumps mishra, under standstill works fucking good, helps g1 vs burn, etc etc), and i'm planning to go to 2 ajani 2 elspeth md (cutting the ajani sb for another useful tool, maybe argivian find, since i cut humility down to 1). Here's the list i'm testing. I went 19^ in a tourney last sunday (84 people) and only lost to high tide (not a surprise) and a landstill that run 3 ajani 2 elspeth md (here's the list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21440)):

UWb Cunningstill by Luca Bozzato

// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance / 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

[klaus]

UWb Cunningstill by Luca Bozzato

// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance / 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I see where you're coming from. I've considered ramping up my Elspeth count to 2 aswell (basically 1 Decree/2 Elspeth split).
Seeing your SB and that MD Ajani (2?), I soon figured you gotta be from bella Italia:laugh: (2 Ajani MD+1P.O.T. fields in the SB - hehe..)

Anyway with your E. Tutor toolbox, I don't see a reason to still include Cunning Wish - with all your Planeswalkers, Wraths etc. your deck is already pretty clunky. I'd suggest you try out 2 Ponders in these slots, this should smooth out your deck. With Wishes gone, you should also replace Extirpate with a singleton Crypt (tutorable via T. West, too:wink: )
I'd strongly suggest, you run a singleton Oblivion Ring/Seal of Cleansing in your main without Wishes - you need a maindeck out to stuff like Crucible of Worlds and the likes, afterall.

Also, I'd cut the S.Top (which I find useful against other control decks only) and replace it with a singleton Runed Halo, which is probably the best addition to your toolbox-deck. 1 Sensei's Top (MD) and 1 CB in the SB doesn't appear to be a consistent out against StormCombo anyway. So there you go, you just found room for your 4th Meddling Mage. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like the approach of your deck (even though 2 E. Tutor's should be enough, I think).

[kensook]

how has vindicate been going for you klaus, or anyone else who has tried it?

[klaus]

@Kensook:
Vindicate has been working well for me. I'm of the opinion, though that cutting the C. Wish package is only cool if you won't have to face Burn and Loam.decs all day, both of which are not prevalent in most US metas (GoyfSligh being the exception-and you're possibly dead anyway before you can go Wish->P.O.T.fields+maintaining control).

[gustha]

I see where you're coming from. I've considered ramping up my Elspeth count to 2 aswell (basically 1 Decree/2 Elspeth split).
Seeing your SB and that MD Ajani (2?), I soon figured you gotta be from bella Italia:laugh: (2 Ajani MD+1P.O.T. fields in the SB - hehe..)

Anyway with your E. Tutor toolbox, I don't see a reason to still include Cunning Wish - with all your Planeswalkers, Wraths etc. your deck is already pretty clunky. I'd suggest you try out 2 Ponders in these slots, this should smooth out your deck. With Wishes gone, you should also replace Extirpate with a singleton Crypt (tutorable via T. West, too:wink: )
I'd strongly suggest, you run a singleton Oblivion Ring/Seal of Cleansing in your main without Wishes - you need a maindeck out to stuff like Crucible of Worlds and the likes, afterall.

Also, I'd cut the S.Top (which I find useful against other control decks only) and replace it with a singleton Runed Halo, which is probably the best addition to your toolbox-deck. 1 Sensei's Top (MD) and 1 CB in the SB doesn't appear to be a consistent out against StormCombo anyway. So there you go, you just found room for your 4th Meddling Mage. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like the approach of your deck (even though 2 E. Tutor's should be enough, I think).

Yes, this list has written on its face "look, I'm italian!" :tongue: In the last tourney I lost with that deck running 3 ajani 2 elspeth MD, and it had 3 wishes in it. I think wish is still the card i would never cut form my list, mostly because i need to get my hands on some useful stuff whenerever i want during the game: basically, the 3rd tutor and the disenchant effect (POTF sometimes when needed, extirpate again only on some things like wasteland for stax and loam for loam.dec, etc.). Oring is surely a card worth to be fit in some room, but I don't see any :( I would not go under 20 blue cards to support FOW (even if 19 would be enough I think, maybe I could cut a standstill). But is really a card I complain that is not in my MD. Ponder (which I run in 3x until last july) is not worth the flexibility of wish (even though, of course, wish's utility has been reduced by the growth of e. tutor toolbox). That's why I choose SDT: it's tutorable, fucking good under standstill, surely a controllish card (not a card I would tutor for in faster matches), gives us a long-term advantage. It's not quick as ponder, but I would never cut wishes for that... However, I will surely try a list without wishes, replacing
-1 sdt
-2 wishes
+1 Oring
+2 ponder

The MD halo would be a good thing, but it's really useful? is good against other landstill, il surely good g1 against tendrils combo, but it's no use against solidarity (which is one of our worst MU) and does nothing against ETW. Why would it be our best addition to the tutor toolbox?

Well, I'll go and think about the non-wish list. Also, do you think that a wish-ful list would be much more good in a control meta, and a wish-less would be much more good in a aggro-combo one, or do you think that a wish-less list is far more good that a list wish-ful one?

Anyway, I think that Elspeth should entirely replace Doj: there's still one in my list because the meta here in the north-east is full of other landstill, and so I can't cut it, you understand.:laugh:

A possible wish-less list:
// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Ponder
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [TS] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

[klaus]

The MD halo would be a good thing, but it's really useful? is good against other landstill, il surely good g1 against tendrils combo, but it's no use against solidarity (which is one of our worst MU) and does nothing against ETW. Why would it be our best addition to the tutor toolbox?
First off, both Brainfreeze and Stroke of Genius do target - so Halo works here.
Trust me Halo is NEVER a dead card be it against Aggro or AggroControl or Combo. I suggest you try it and I promise you won't be dissapointed.


Well, I'll go and think about the non-wish list. Also, (1) do you think that a wish-ful list would be much more good in a control meta, and (2) a wish-less would be much more good in a aggro-combo one, or (3) do you think that a wish-less list is far more good that a list wish-ful one?
(1)=Yes. (2)=Yes. (3)=I'm not sure yet.


Anyway, I think that Elspeth should entirely replace Doj: there's still one in my list because the meta here in the north-east is full of other landstill, and so I can't cut it, you understand.:laugh:
I'd never cut that singleton Decree, no matter what meta I was facing. Keep it, it's uncuttable.
Playing a single Decree means you draw it much later in average compared to lists with 2-3 copies. This again means you have more land in play, making it bigger and thus more worthwhile.
Having run 3 I always found myself cycling my 1st Decree for 1,2 or even 0 just get my next card - Elspeth solves that, obviously.
I could never see me running 3 Elspeths though - don't forget the legendary rule applies here.
--
That being said, I like your list above. The only thing that I'd suggest is adding my beloved MD Runed Halo and -1 Argivian Find, -1 Canonist___+1 Halo, +1Meddling Mage (he's really golden in the mirror).
That Return to Dust is surely the remains of the Wish toolbox. If you want a SB card against artifact/enchantment heavy decks you could add 1 Serenity or 1 Seal of Cleansing or 1 Aura of Silence (all of which can be E. Tutored, too)

[gustha]

First off, both Brainfreeze and Stroke of Genius do target - so Halo works here.
Trust me Halo is NEVER a dead card be it against Aggro or AggroControl or Combo. I suggest you try it and I promise you won't be dissapointed.

I was pointing out the fact that AdNtendrils, belcher, etc gives us the time to cast halo, while the denial of solidarity is a real problem. Also, solidarity can get its sb wipe away via cunning wish, so that halo would be unuseful. I know it's a good card, i run 3 copies sb until i replaced it with mage+canonist. But really, i dont' know what to cut.


I'd never cut that singleton Decree, no matter what meta I was facing. Keep it, it's uncuttable.
Playing a single Decree means you draw it much later in average compared to lists with 2-3 copies. This again means you have more land in play, making it bigger and thus more worthwhile.
Having run 3 I always found myself cycling my 1st Decree for 1,2 or even 0 just get my next card - Elspeth solves that, obviously.
I could never see me running 3 Elspeths though - don't forget the legendary rule applies here.

Agreed. The list i was referring to run 3 ajani because of the fact ajani dies fast if we pump our creatures. Elspeth is good in 2 copies, it's the right number.
--

That being said, I like your list above. The only thing that I'd suggest is adding my beloved MD Runed Halo and -1 Argivian Find, -1 Canonist___+1 Halo, +1Meddling Mage (he's really golden in the mirror).
That Return to Dust is surely the remains of the Wish toolbox. If you want a SB card against artifact/enchantment heavy decks you could add 1 Serenity or 1 Seal of Cleansing or 1 Aura of Silence (all of which can be E. Tutored, too)

-argivian find: if our opponent sides in krosan grip, it is a very good card. (even if it's right that Elspeth certainly decreases our dependency on humility). Maybe i'll cut it for the 4th mage.
-canonist: this is really our tutorable response to storm combo, slows them down and makes our answers uncounterable. with a meddling mage that names wipe away, we can get through.

return to dust: cons: the cost; pros; removes from the game (no recursion, no replenish). However, maybe it's better a tutorable tool like aura of silence or serenity (still undecided...).

[mossivo1986]

So a quick tourney report for you guys to munch on.

20 people tourney

// Lands
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [UNH] Island
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [TE] Humility
1 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I didn't have ajani and I couldn't find anyone who had any at the time so the 2nd blast is its replacement.


match one: uwb landstill vs mirror

g1 basicly comes down to me killing 2 factories then following suit drawing my dustbowl and color screwing him out of white. then locking him with standstill and drawing my own two factories.

g2 he gets factory standstill on 2 followed by x2 factories. I respond with tolaria west into dustbowl and he gets be to 6 before loosing tempo and being forced to break his own standstill when I double factory rush him. Neither of the games were close and elspeth took a backseat to constant factory beat down.

match 2 uwb landstill vs: dragonstompy
g1 he mulls to 6 and casts two reasonable threats which get countered and swords. Then I take over with dustbowl and ee in the same turn putting him down to 2 mountains followed by elspeth ftw.

g2 he gets blood moon in play which hinders my play a bit, but i have enough basic lands to fight through it. I end up responding to challice by breaking blood moon and following it up with elspeth mishra factory beatdown with a counter wall and repetitive standstill's. The game ended quickly thanks to elspeth.

match 3: uwb landstill vs: ubg fish.

g1: this match was rediculously close as he ran 4 mishra's and 1 vault. regularly casted vendillion clique without me having counters, and when I did they got eaten. I won off of standstill locking me out of playing spells on my own part and cycling not 1 but 2 decrees in a matter of 3 rounds killing three manlands, then following it up by slow rolling him with a soldier token and mishr'a factory beatdown.

we ended up drawing the second game.

match 4 RDW aka burn deck wins vs: uwblandstill

g1 I beat him with one life without seeing pulse
g2: I lose because I draw 1 basic land and he casts fireblasts with the non basic land burn spell
g3: I tap out like a dumb ... and he burns me for 16 damage, I had complete control of the game and I gave it up because im retarded

match 5: draw into t8

t8 uwblandstill vs RDW different version.

g1: I mully to 5 thinking I need to see some draw spells or cunning wish neither are seen I lose

g2: I almost stabilize but no counters and no with leave me wanting more from the deck. Runed halo was cute locking out price of progress.

[aldaryn]

I am interested in playing this deck in Legacy, so I have been looking through lists on deckcheck and this thread. Some of these latest lists seem very close to each other (which is probably a good thing), but I noticed a discrepancy in one list that had me curious, and I had one question myself.

Most of the lists I looked at had 2 Cunning Wish and 3 Spell Snare, but one list I saw cut Spell Snare for a 3rd Cunning Wish and 2 Fact or Fiction. Is Standstill and Brainstorm sufficient card draw, or is something else like Fact or Fiction needed?

My personal question is about the sideboard. I like the idea of a Wishboard, but most sideboards I've seen have had to concede a lot of slots to Meddling Mage, Engineered Plague, Extirpate, and Hyrdroblast, but not leaving much else for the Wishboard, while personally I can think of a lot of things to put there (probably foremost in my mind are Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, and Stifle). Speaking of Stifle, is that worth consideration in the MD Spell Snare slot? I'm only nominally familiar with Legacy, but wouldn't a wishable Stifle along with 3 main help the combo matchup greatly? It seems like this deck is not at all designed to win vs. Storm, unless I have no idea what I am talking about, and I would think a non-dead-in-other-matchups card like Stifle is an autoinclude.

I apologize if I'm rehashing, I can't remember if I read the whole thread, but I really can't see not packing Stifle, and I wouldn't know what else to cut other than Spell Snare.

So I guess my basic question is: How important is Spell Snare, and how are OK are you without FoF main, Stifle, or a bigger wishboard.

[mossivo1986]

I am interested in playing this deck in Legacy, so I have been looking through lists on deckcheck and this thread. Some of these latest lists seem very close to each other (which is probably a good thing), but I noticed a discrepancy in one list that had me curious, and I had one question myself.

Most of the lists I looked at had 2 Cunning Wish and 3 Spell Snare, but one list I saw cut Spell Snare for a 3rd Cunning Wish and 2 Fact or Fiction. Is Standstill and Brainstorm sufficient card draw, or is something else like Fact or Fiction needed?

My personal question is about the sideboard. I like the idea of a Wishboard, but most sideboards I've seen have had to concede a lot of slots to Meddling Mage, Engineered Plague, Extirpate, and Hyrdroblast, but not leaving much else for the Wishboard, while personally I can think of a lot of things to put there (probably foremost in my mind are Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, and Stifle). Speaking of Stifle, is that worth consideration in the MD Spell Snare slot? I'm only nominally familiar with Legacy, but wouldn't a wishable Stifle along with 3 main help the combo matchup greatly? It seems like this deck is not at all designed to win vs. Storm, unless I have no idea what I am talking about, and I would think a non-dead-in-other-matchups card like Stifle is an autoinclude.

I apologize if I'm rehashing, I can't remember if I read the whole thread, but I really can't see not packing Stifle, and I wouldn't know what else to cut other than Spell Snare.

So I guess my basic question is: How important is Spell Snare, and how are OK are you without FoF main, Stifle, or a bigger wishboard.

Generally speaking the combo match is already really good. Now depending on which specific combo deck were talking about specifies what you side in. Meddling mage is quite the house, and mixing that in with counterspell force and spell snare enables you to prevent said opponent from going off. The other half of it is that certain aggro control cards can sometimes work in these matchups as well aka EE, EP, BEB, ect. Usually with these models you have enough time to not only control them enough to slow them down, but the key is getting set up and putting them on a clock.

[klaus]

So I guess my basic question is: How important is Spell Snare, and how are OK are you without FoF main, Stifle, or a bigger wishboard.

Yo aldaryn.
Regarding Wish board:
The Core:
1 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse ot. Fields
1 Return to Dust or Dismantling Blow (since you're into drawing xtra cards:wink:)
1 Enlightened Tutor.
As you realized there are tons of Wish target goodies that you could fit in the remaining 10 slots. Unfortunately, the space NEEDS to be used otherwise:
5-6 combo hate/control dominance/allrounder: "x" Meddling Mage "y" Runed Halo"
4 Graveyard hate i.e.: 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus.
1 Meta Slot (could be a Wish target, too).
---
Regarding Stifle:
Stifle s no longer good in LS.
There are 2 major reasons for that:
1.0) You run enough basics = many lands are wasteland-proofalready
2.0) Storm Combo protects itself nowadays (Chant etc.)
2.1) Ad Nauseam ridicules Stifle as combo hate.

I don't see a reason to not run 1-2 Fact or Fictions beside getting Dazed sucks, the format's gotten faster (though some might be of a different opinion here), making CMC 4 spells less powerfull, potentially. Many have adopted 2 Ponder in the former FOF slot.

Spell Snare:
3 CS ("long term control") + 3 Spellsnares ("fast control") = treating me good sofar. That's all I can say.

Hope that helps.
Klaus.

[mossivo1986]

Yo aldaryn.
Regarding Wish board:
The Core:
1 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse ot. Fields
1 Return to Dust or Dismantling Blow (since you're into drawing xtra cards:wink:)
1 Enlightened Tutor.
As you realized there are tons of Wish target goodies that you could fit in the remaining 10 slots. Unfortunately, the space NEEDS to be used otherwise:
5-6 combo hate/control dominance/allrounder: "x" Meddling Mage "y" Runed Halo"
4 Graveyard hate i.e.: 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus.
1 Meta Slot (could be a Wish target, too).
---
Regarding Stifle:
Stifle s no longer good in LS.
There are 2 major reasons for that:
1.0) You run enough basics = many lands are wasteland-proofalready
2.0) Storm Combo protects itself nowadays (Chant etc.)
2.1) Ad Nauseam ridicules Stifle as combo hate.

I don't see a reason to not run 1-2 Fact or Fictions beside getting Dazed sucks, the format's gotten faster (though some might be of a different opinion here), making CMC 4 spells less powerfull, potentially. Many have adopted 2 Ponder in the former FOF slot.

Spell Snare:
3 CS ("long term control") + 3 Spellsnares ("fast control") = treating me good sofar. That's all I can say.

Hope that helps.
Klaus.

I tried the 2-2 split and I was really not satisfied with the hands I was presented with often times. I always wanted ponder or brainstorm, so as der has mentioned to me, going 3ponder 2 snare 1 counterspell is what he plays and what im going to try.

[Pelikanudo]

Well this is the list I've seen currently the most updated . and after some testings in mws I 've reached to some conclusions:

2 Humility
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

1 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dismantling Blow

a) Elspeth is one and for all the card which replaces the 3rd decree , correct, by the moment.

b) the 3 counterspell , 3 snares 4 fow seem to me the perfect counterspell package .

c) regarding the 2 humilty slot, I noticed we only need 1 humilty to be played in order to win certain games ,therefore I've been thinking in replacing it by 1 tutor , but not convinced

d) regarding the mana base 24 lands 1 Eternal dragon seems to be perfect :
the wasteland slot is outdated, now its natural replacement is dust bowl, however , it is certain we can find it via tolaria , but I feel its number must be 2, therefore according to this number we can perfectly take out crucible of worlds, because it's only utility is now to make recurring mishras, not enough reason, in conclusion to this I can say as well we can need some more addition of land-advantage and therefore the mana base 23 lands 2 eternal dragon seems to me the ritgh shot.

f) If we dispense with the recurrency of mishras, we can consider we loose in certain way a win condition, the second E.Dragon can not be enough, Even we reduce the number of lands , so the 3rd decree as both , cantrip card and not receiver of the number of win cond . Elspeth in that way can be replaced by 3rd decree, but still testing

e) Something I've noticed is the importance of the card cunnin wish in certain match ups, because withouth them we simply loose. these match ups are mainly :
- Burn
- Life from the loam archetypes
and because of the flexibility it offers, this card in part defines the concept of 'deck with response', a card that want to be drawn always. therefore its natural number must be 3 .

f) in regard to the configuration of the sideboard, we can perfectly change :
-1 relic of progenitus + 1 Enlitghned tutor, in order to make the side more flexible because of the number of C.Wish , withouth loosing consistency.
OR
-1 Relic of progenitus +1 extirpate , making posible the 3 targetables Extirpate reciprocal to the number of C.Wish.

these conclusions are demonstrated in the list as fowolls:
2 Humility
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish // +1

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Decree of Justice // I recognize I haven't tested 'Elspeth, Knight-Errant ' and I can not affirm this is the correct addition , however agreed to point f) I'll let it with this modification

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Eternal Dragon // +1

1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
2 Dust Bowl // +1
4 Mishra's Factory

1 Polluted Delta // -1
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Island // -1
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra


Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus // -1
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlitghned Tutor.



As Esperience demonstrate playing less than 3 cunnin wish is a big mistake if you play 2 yuo have possibilities of loosing vs burn... but cutting 1 snares is not the ritgh move
Ideas, suggestions, onions ?

[aldaryn]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be playing with the list and reserving judgment before I tweak it, but my next question is about some subtleties in the manabase. I see lists with variations of 0-1 Tolaria West, Dust Bowl, and Wasteland. Just how important are any of these cards? T. West seems slow for Legacy, and in a deck with Crucible it seems like Wasteland > Dust Bowl... now tell me why I'm wrong :)

[Serbitar]

Alot of UWb Landstill lists have cut the Crucible (or play only one), making Dust Bowl better for what you want it to do: which is not to wastelock the opponent but to be able to pick off 'utility-lands' like Volrath's Stronghold and the like (or Manlands).

Tolaria West is sometimes clunky, but great against certain decks, since it fetches both parts of the Academy Ruins - EE combo, which is devastating say against Thresh. Still you wouldn't want more copies of Ruins (legendary, colorless...), so Tolaria West can act as a - clunky - extra copy, but with added flexibility. It gets the Dust Bowl too, Factory (e.g. under a Standstill) and EE.

Both are long game cards, close some holes (Dust Bowl) and give inevitability.

[klaus]

Alot of UWb Landstill lists have cut the Crucible (or play only one), making Dust Bowl better for what you want it to do: which is not to wastelock the opponent but to be able to pick off 'utility-lands' like Volrath's Stronghold and the like (or Manlands).

Tolaria West is sometimes clunky, but great against certain decks, since it fetches both parts of the Academy Ruins - EE combo, which is devastating say against Thresh. Still you wouldn't want more copies of Ruins (legendary, colorless...), so Tolaria West can act as a - clunky - extra copy, but with added flexibility. It gets the Dust Bowl too, Factory (e.g. under a Standstill) and EE.
Both are long game cards, close some holes (Dust Bowl) and give inevitability.
Don't forget, it fetches Tormod's Crypt, too if need be.

[FredMaster]

But since Relic is more efficent, you argument is invalid :wink:

I am tinkering to run an Uwg version of the deck on a bigger event this weekend. Since Relic is the Extirpate of today, and many lists ran only 1 in the wishboard anyways, Wish became weaker and weaker (not everybody plays the Slaughter Pact in sideboard anymore).
My teammate thought of playing G instead of B, for example for Grip.
He replaced the 2 maindeck Wishes by 2 Krosan Grip. Therefore the Sideboard gets imo more efficient, having enough space for both Halo and multipe Blasts.
The downside obviously is less flexability preboard. Not having the opportunity to fetch an enlightened tutor for Crucible, or saving yourself due to a POT Fields actually doesn't feel too good.

Comments?

[rockout]

I'm currently running a UWg list with 2 main deck Krosan Grip. I run green for only Krosan Grip. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to grip an ee/pernicious deed/powder keg and save your permanents. It's never been a dead card for me. Since I am not running the wishboard, I have multiple Blue Elemental Blast in the board in addition to fitting Ajani, Runed Halo, Meddling Mage and Relic. It allows me to have a stronger sideboard plan against more decks instead of having to pay 2U for an answer.

I used to run a UWb version with Bitterblossom main deck and Extirpate/Engineered Plague out of the board and I think Engineered Plague just isn't as good as a well timed wrath effect against goblins or meathooks. It may be easier to stall with Plague but running Humility forces the aggro player to overextend making your Engineered Explosives and Wrath of God spells that more more potent. I run Humility as a personal preference.

I went off on a tangent not sticking to the question from the previous poster. The first paragraph is the only one that makes any sense. Whoops.

[Wargoos]

I'm currently running a UWg list with 2 main deck Krosan Grip. I run green for only Krosan Grip. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to grip an ee/pernicious deed/powder keg and save your permanents. It's never been a dead card for me. Since I am not running the wishboard, I have multiple Blue Elemental Blast in the board in addition to fitting Ajani, Runed Halo, Meddling Mage and Relic. It allows me to have a stronger sideboard plan against more decks instead of having to pay 2U for an answer.



I don't know but this sounds exactly like my build.
High Five!

[mossivo1986]

For all the players who are dissing on 2xwish if your not running 4brainstorm 3ponder or something to that tune then your obviously never going to hit wish, unless its realisticly in your opener. Wish is absolutely a 2 of in these decks.

Splashing green in landstill instead of black you say. Cutting wish and wishboard for 2 grips seems not only underpowered but alittle rediculous. Not only are you cutting your extirpate, but your counting on a maindeck disenchant in an off color to take place of your toolbox, which at times may be good, but in the long run doesn't seem feasable.

Tolaria west is absolutely neccesary in the deck and if it ends up being clunky for you then your transmuting at the wrong times. The theory behind it is that it gives you your removal/wincondition/ land fixing for the turn, or its just a supbar nonbasic island. Either way it deserves the one slot it takes in both the 3 color and 4 color list.

On the other hand dustbowl is so good its scary. I was bringing in dustbowl almost every matchup in the recent tourney I played in. Even against dragon stompy it was incredible. Now granted it is a bit more expensive, but basicly it reads take your advantage in lands that you already have and use it directly against your opponent. Transmuting under standstill with tolaria west even if they have manlands, getting your dustbowl solves all of these problems.

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds. I might also might consider bant charm as odd as it sounds.

[FredMaster]

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds.
Not really man.
1. Return to Dust removes
2. Return to Dust targets up to two.

Seed Spark needs the G to be at least passable.

[konsultant]

For all the players who are dissing on 2xwish if your not running 4brainstorm 3ponder or something to that tune then your obviously never going to hit wish, unless its realisticly in your opener. Wish is absolutely a 2 of in these decks.

Splashing green in landstill instead of black you say. Cutting wish and wishboard for 2 grips seems not only underpowered but alittle rediculous. Not only are you cutting your extirpate, but your counting on a maindeck disenchant in an off color to take place of your toolbox, which at times may be good, but in the long run doesn't seem feasable.

Tolaria west is absolutely neccesary in the deck and if it ends up being clunky for you then your transmuting at the wrong times. The theory behind it is that it gives you your removal/wincondition/ land fixing for the turn, or its just a supbar nonbasic island. Either way it deserves the one slot it takes in both the 3 color and 4 color list.

On the other hand dustbowl is so good its scary. I was bringing in dustbowl almost every matchup in the recent tourney I played in. Even against dragon stompy it was incredible. Now granted it is a bit more expensive, but basicly it reads take your advantage in lands that you already have and use it directly against your opponent. Transmuting under standstill with tolaria west even if they have manlands, getting your dustbowl solves all of these problems.

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds. I might also might consider bant charm as odd as it sounds.

I ran the UWg list with MD Grips to quite a bit of success. The main differences were the UWg list is more of a meta game list where the Wish list is alot more versatile. If you are playing in a field of Painter's combo, MUC, Dreadstill and other Counterbalance based decks the UWg list is a far better choice. For a more versatile enviorment the Wish list or something like my Vindicate list is probably the best call.

[kensook]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

[Citrus-God]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Yea, but the only main cards we use off Black is Vindicate and Extirpate. I dont see Extirpate being any better than Relic of Progenitus and thanks to Relic of Progenitus, Green for Krosan Grip will be viable. Especially since it has a more efficient graveyard hoser. Of course, you also have the option of running 4 colors as well for both Extirpate, Slaughter Pact, and Cunning Wish as well as Krosan Grip.

[mossivo1986]

Not really man.
1. Return to Dust removes
2. Return to Dust targets up to two.

Seed Spark needs the G to be at least passable.

Valid points, but:

1. How many times do you disenchant for 2 when using return to dust. Frankly I wouldn't cast return to dust on my own mainphase unless it was absolutely vital. I would probobly play dismantling blow over return to dust and i'd deffinately play seed spark over dismantling blow.

2. It does remove but how much does that really come into play. Last time I checked darksteel collosus wasn't a big player in this format.
3. the green mana replaces double white and in a uwg list g shouldn't be that relevant most of the time.

The main argument I have is that the 2 tokens are excellent to get off of seed spark. Its not only a change of tempo, but it acts as a small decree in the sense that it not only gives you win conditions, but it opens up your mana for your turn but also allows you to react properly on your opponents following turn which return to dust does not. Bottom line all 3 are disenchants for 3-4 mana, but only two really net you a solid advantage, the other just leaves you tapped out and hoping they dont blood moon/armageddon/ produce a second counterbalance again. I'm not willing to take those chances, are you?

kensook: That is exactly my point. If I were going to touch green I mine as well go four color as extirpate via wish gets rid of enough matchups preboard to make it golden in almost any landstill variant, as they all splash blue and all have a small enough space for wishboards to make it previlant. The other half is that if I were going to run green I don't think i'd play grip, i'd play seed spark as a target for wish, and also LFTL instead of crucible, and probobly run 2 dragons instread of one. This gives you an added bonus on win conditions and pure card advantage against lame discard decks as they can never truly hoze you before turn four.

[Hanni]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Extirpate is subpar in comparison to Relic of Progenitus, Engineered Plague is narrow and useless unless the metagame is infested with Goblins (or other tribal decks), Slaughter Pact seems pointless aside from being a strong Cunning Wish target, and Krosan Grip is stronger against opposing artifacts/enchantments than Vindicate (albeit Vindicate is much more versatile since it can hit whatever).

In all honesty, I only splash green for 1 maindeck Nantuko Monastery (replaceable with Mutavault or Conclave) and 3 sideboard Krosan Grips. The U/W fraimwork keeps it simple and makes the manabase extremely stable. I don't think either black nor green is a mandatory splash, and that the deck can just as easily function as U/W. The minor third splash does make EE stronger though, and I find Krosan Grip to be better than anything black can offer.

Just for quick reference, here's my current list:

U/W/g Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
2 [A] Tropical Island
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

After playing with CounterTop in Landstill, I found it to be far too strong to not run. The entire idea behind CounterTop fills the exact niche that Landstill wants; control over the gamestate whilst at the same time gaining card advantage while doing so. Top itself is so rediculously good that there is no reason to not run it. CounterTop is fantastic and I'd never play Landstill without it again.

Other than that, the only thing that massively stands out are 2 Eternal Dragon and 4 Wrath of God, instead of a 2/2/2 split of Decree/Humility/WoG. In my limited testing with the Counterbalance variation, I found greater consistency overall with my current configuration. Doesn't mean my current setup is correct, but I'm just presenting a framework to you because you asked to see a U/W/g list.

[rockout]

@Konsultant: I'm a huge fan of both your builds and have played both of them on MWS and only UWg in tournament due to the lack of vindicates. Consider me a fan boy. :wink:

Some questions: Have you jumped ship with the rest of the Landstill community and started running a 1:1 Elspeth to Decree ratio? In your list from the Binghamton Legacy 1k, why did you drop mishra's factory to a 3-of and not run academy ruins?

The decklist for reference:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20070

[Bardo]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Another option, is to push the black cards to the sideboard, with a couple of U Seas to support them in G2/3.

Here's my Uwg/b list from testing today:

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
4 Planar Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

The deck is mainly base-blue, with a maindeck W/G splash for 4x StP/Goyf. Seas are for Planar Void and Plagues in the side, while giving Explosives a modest boost in the main. In G1, the Seas are mainly a vulnerable sort of basic Island (Wasteland, PoP, etc.), but in the right meta, those downsides are compensated by the flexibility you gain in the sideboard.

Shackles, Deed, Bant Charm, C//P and a few other cards were tested and then cut for being too slow. Fact is slow, but you have enough mana to support it and the deck is pretty poor when it comes to top-decking. Fact helps power of out of stalls, grows Monastery and is a decent Demonic Tutor.


After playing with CounterTop in Landstill, I found it to be far too strong to not run. The entire idea behind CounterTop fills the exact niche that Landstill wants; control over the gamestate whilst at the same time gaining card advantage while doing so. Top itself is so rediculously good that there is no reason to not run it. CounterTop is fantastic and I'd never play Landstill without it again.

Definitely. It also owns in match-ups that have been poor vs. Landstill in the past; mainly, fast aggro and storm-combo.

T1 Top / T2 CB vs. R/g(/w) Beatdown is game on its own.

[Citrus-God]

@Konsultant: I'm a huge fan of both your builds and have played both of them on MWS and only UWg in tournament due to the lack of vindicates. Consider me a fan boy. :wink:

Some questions: Have you jumped ship with the rest of the Landstill community and started running a 1:1 Elspeth to Decree ratio? In your list from the Binghamton Legacy 1k, why did you drop mishra's factory to a 3-of and not run academy ruins?

The decklist for reference:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20070

He needed to run more Black sources so that he's able to consistently be able to have the mana up on Turn 3 to cast Vindicate. Besides that, you never really activate your Factories unless you're under Standstill usually. And when you do activate it outside of Standstill, you've gotten control of the game.

Personally, I find Elspeth and DoJ more important than Factories being a 3-of. Elspeth and DoJ are your primary win conditions, obviously. And of course, if you're going to add Elspeth, that gives you even more of an incentive to cut a Factory for a better blocker: Elspeth.

[Blitzbold]

I really like your list, Bardo.

However, with it's color combination and the inclusion of Goyfs it looks quite similar to ITF. The difference is within about 8-10 cards, namely Standstills, FoF, Manlands and the lack of Deeds. I wonder whether this was done intentionally?

[Mister Agent]

Actually Bardo's current Landstill list reminds me more of MUC except with a aggro-control shell built in. Seems pretty solid though Bardo. One question I have to ask is do you miss pernicious deed much in your newest list?

However, I could see the justification since cards like fact or fiction, tarmogoyf and counterbalance actually can make up for the lack of consistency in the removal department. I also think cards like vedalken shackles or control magic could actually be strong in the deck.

[mossivo1986]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

[Serbitar]

While Landstill's aggro-control/aggro matchup is certainly fantastic, I find its combo matchups rather shaky. A deck like TES or AdN-Tendrils combos around turn two, often protected, leaving you only with Force (if proctected, without anything).
Counterbalance does become online the same turn as C-Spell, but comboing through Balance will usually be rough, while comboing through C-Spell is not.

[Still, I'm no fan of CB in Landstill-]

[Bardo]

I really like your list, Bardo.

However, with it's color combination and the inclusion of Goyfs it looks quite similar to ITF. The difference is within about 8-10 cards, namely Standstills, FoF, Manlands and the lack of Deeds. I wonder whether this was done intentionally?

The list above is an evolution of the Landstill decks I was writing about in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/15607_Unlocking_Legacy_The_Tutelage_of_Thich_Nhat_Hanh_Part_2.html) -- basically shuffling the best parts of both lists together.

As for black, I really wanted to play 4x Planar Void and some Engineered Plagues in the sideboard. Mainly I'm tuning the deck for the GP Columbus meta and Goblins (possibly Elves too, but mainly Goblins) are going to be out in force. You can't expect the GP meta to resemble our own in-bred


Actually Bardo's current Landstill list reminds me more of MUC except with a aggro-control shell built in. Seems pretty solid though Bardo. One question I have to ask is do you miss pernicious deed much in your newest list?

You can certainly go -3 EE, +3 Deed, but I was trying to keep the mana as consistent as possible, focusing just on UWG in the main. If your mana is under any kind of pressure, or you just get a bad land draw, you won't always hit UU for CBalance/CSpell, W for StP, G for Goyf and BG for Deed when you want it, especially when you're also running Factories/Wasteland/Monastery. But you're certainly welcome to experiment. I just got done playing a few matches vs. Affinity and would have much preferred Deed.


However, I could see the justification since cards like fact or fiction, tarmogoyf and counterbalance actually can make up for the lack of consistency in the removal department. I also think cards like vedalken shackles or control magic could actually be strong in the deck.

Man, I love Shackles, but 3+2 is a lot of mana. Testing vs. fast RGW Aggro this weekend, they're way too slow. Vs. Tombstalker, 5 Islands is a lot to ask for; it's a huge mana sink, is vulnerable to all of the Grips people are brining in.

Don't get me wrong, it's a 3 for CB which is important and when it gets online, it can dominate the board. Mainly in recent testing (<2 weeks) it suffers for lack of speed in the match-ups where you want it, and lack of relevance against a lot of other match-ups.


I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

As I mentioned above (though briefly), Counterbalance adds some plating to the spots in Landstill's armor where it's vulnerable: fast aggro, burn and combo. Wrath/Deed are often too slow against the better-build aggro decks. By the time you've stabilized the board, you're already in burn-out range; burn-decks has always been rough (CB owns Burn); and the newer combo decks (mainly, those running Ad Nauseam) can just tendrils you into oblivion while you hold a pile of worthless spells. CB helps turn these matches around; while turning your positive match-ups into near-byes. Even in the mirror, it doesn't suck.

As for Divining Top, hell, you could throw that into Landstill with no other justification. It's very powerful all on its own.

[Hanni]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

I can't see the justification for NOT playing CounterTop in Landstill. It improves nearly every matchup, especially matchups that were once very problematic like Bardo mentioned (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Aggro Loam, etc etc). Counterbalance isn't a combo aggro killer, it's an everything killer. The only decks that are unaffected are Stompy decks and other decks that operate on mainly 3cc spells, or other akward cc's that this deck cannot answer with Counterbalance.

This deck almost always assembles CounterTop at some point in the game, since the games (almost) always go late, and the deck has a ton of filter and draw. CounterTop not only has the potential to lock out the opponent, it creates huge gaps in card advantage once online.

Top itself is almost as good as Standstill. It increases the chances that you draw what you need when you need it by such a huge margin. Top deserves to be in most control decks, and if you're running blue and running Top, there's little reason to not tweak the deck to fit Counterbalance.

I'm not really going to get into too much more detail. I'd rather just play CounterTop because I know it's rediculously good, rather than get into a debate about why you should play it.

[aldaryn]

For whoever said Counterbalance is faster than Wrath/Deed, I can definitely see that for Deed but it is not that much "faster" than Wrath. You require about 4 mana total (granted, you can do it over a few turns) to counter ONE spell with Counterbalance, which is the same cost as Wrath blowing everything up. But it's still kind of irrelevant since you can't really compare "speed" of a card that locks out future plays to a card that deals with cards already played. The functions are entirely different.

I can't see the justification for playing Counterbalance and Deed in the same lists. Do you only deed away 1-drops? Plus you have to waste time replaying Top, though that's not as important of a point.

[Mister Agent]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

Well it actually takes a different mentality to play Bardo's Landstill correctly compared to something like Cunning Landstill. I happen to like Counterbalance in Landstill since it makes the archetype considerably more interactive then before which is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

Tarmogoyf combined with Counterbalance just steals a ridiculous amount of games on it's own and the lethal combination becomes more prominent with the inclusion of Standstill and Manlands.

[rockout]

Has anyone found a list that can fully support running Humility and the Counter-top engine along with Wrath of God and Elspeth? I am thoroughly convinced that Humility is a thrashing to almost any deck it resolves against, besides the obvious Tendril decks running rampant. If so, you can either PM me or post it here. I'd love to try it. If not, I will work on it in the next few days and post what I think.

[Enigma]

I would try something like this:


// Lands
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Spell Snare
2 Cunning Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Return to Dust


It has to be tested as there is a lot of 1, 2 and 3 of's. I doubt of its consistency.

So I cut: -1 Counterspell, -1 EE, -2 Fact Or Fiction and I'm currently @ 61 cards.

Why those?
+ Counter lock = need less removal I guess and maybe 1 CS less.
+ Top = Good for searching card quality so it's somehow doin' FoF job.

PS: Note that I privilege basics and Spell snare over non-basics and CS.

PM

[Bardo]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

I think the most direct answer I can give is this: Counterbalance makes your bad match-ups decent and your decent match-ups excellent. It's protection and a card-advantage engine in one card.

[rockout]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

[Bardo]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

The most common and useful 3s to run for Counterbalance in Landstill are Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles and Crucible of Worlds. Though, I wouldn't go too far out of your way for it, since you mainly run CB for opposing 1 and 2 cmc spells.

People will be gunning for CB with Grip in G2/3, and you'll often be bringing in Grips against those decks anyway, that's another common way to boost your 3s.

[Citrus-God]

The most common and useful 3s to run for Counterbalance in Landstill are Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles and Crucible of Worlds. Though, I wouldn't go too far out of your way for it, since you mainly run CB for opposing 1 and 2 cmc spells.

People will be gunning for CB with Grip in G2/3, and you'll often be bringing in Grips against those decks anyway, that's another common way to boost your 3s.

You could run Vindicate to fill the 3c slot.

[Ironstickman]

Well, I also believe Bardo's list has potential, I'm not sure of the B splash though. Just some more thoughts on counterbalance (some discussed a lot of pages ago XD!) and a UWg list:

Yeah, adding a cheap-deffensive-wincon is the way to go (Tarmogoyf---g splash).
The Humility versions are rather too slow and eventually the opponent will be able to escape from the counterbalance lock. Against Burn/Fast Aggro or Combo decks counterbalance will prevent you from loosing, but you'll take ages to win. Plus, you'll notice that the converted mana costs of humilitiy/WoG lists are not compatible with balance.

This deck starts to ressemble UGw threshold (and Dreadstill in a way) a lot.
With balance, 22-23 lands is more appropiate . 7-8 fetchlands.
This is just an idea:

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [R] Tundra
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells

4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [B] Counterspell
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty (or Control Magic)
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

16 U sources (same as threshold, +2 dreadstill)
Wasteland is a card that a spanish guy is obliged to play regardless of the deck, but nantuko is a good possibility (with loam or FoF's)

It might be better to drop the tutors and the silver bullets for more consistency.(+1 top +...), but its hard to find the optimal card for 3 CMC slots.

[sengirvmpr]

I like zvi's list the best because the tutors are a great way to get that one card that can possibly hose the opponent.

4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
5 islands
2 plains
4 factorys
3 wastlands
4 tundra

1 ee
1 crucible
1 threads of disloyalty
1 seal of cleansing
1 hoofprints of the stag
4 fow
4 force spike
3 standstill
3 swords
2 wrath
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 top
2 e dragon
4 enlightened tutor


Welcome to The Source, but note this post is seriously lacking in posting quality. Please see our Site Rules (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455). - Bardo

[rockout]

I think 4x Enlightened Tutor is took much card disadvantage. You can go -2 E. Tutors and up the best card in the deck (ee) to 3 total. You definitely do not want to draw seven and have E. Tutor x 2 and say a Force of Will. With 4x E. Tutor, you definitely run the risk of drawing an E. Tutor instead of business or card draw later on in the game. Plus it makes you wait a turn, so it's only really good as a 2-of.

Other than that, force spike looks a little awkward. Have you tried daze instead of force spike?

[Enigma]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

In my list, I'm much concerned about 2cc spells. Only Standstill and CB..

[Citrus-God]

You all realize you don't need Tarmogoyfs when playing Counterbalance, right? Why can't we just use Counterbalance for card advantage? I mean, if the soft-lock takes you to late game, you should be winning anyway because it's Landstill.

So I say just run more cards that help you stabilize and isnt susceptible to removal, like Goyf. Play cards like WoG and such to help you stabilize and run cards Monastery so that you have a better clock under Counterbalance.

[Ironstickman]

Yes, but goyf gives you a fast clock against combo and a big wall against aggro, which is what we need. Plus, it makes standstill less conditional.
Counter-top setup is not fast enough, and many threats might have gone through before you've stablished it.
Goyf is particullary good because it is not mana intensive, although it's true that most decks are prepared to deal with it

[Citrus-God]

Yes, but goyf gives you a fast clock against combo and a big wall against aggro, which is what we need. Plus, it makes standstill less conditional.

Your deck has always been good under Standstill.

As for combo, I'd rather have Krosan Grips in that slot over Tarmogoyfs. Tarmogoyf cant protect you from Painter's Stone, TES loses if it fizzles on you anyway (read AN's mana cost, just counter it if they dare cast it), and
and Goyf doesnt do crap against Ichorid.

Against Aggro, Goyfs are just sub par compared to cards like Humility. They'll just throw a Swords to Plowshares at it and just continue swinging. Even if you have a Goyf out, they'll just cast more guys and keep swinging. If you counter anything stupid like a copy of Swords to Plowshares, the worst is yet to come; they will from there cast a Price of Progress because you misused your counters. Against Goblins, they run Warren Weirding. The more I think about running creatures in this deck, the more likely I am to reject the idea after much testing with maindeck Tarmogoyfs.


Counter-top setup is not fast enough, and many threats might have gone through before you've stablished it.

Landstill is a board control deck. Why would this be an issue?


Goyf is particullary good because it is not mana intensive, although it's true that most decks are prepared to deal with it

Bitterblossom is just as good. Seriously, why arent you people running that instead of Goyf?

[rockout]

I used to run Bitterblossom in a UWb Landstill shell. It was really good in testing and tournament. I don't mind paying life for threats, but I had problems beating decks like goblins because of the life loss. Other than that, I think it's a great idea for a win-condition and runs just as good under Humility.

[Hanni]

You all realize you don't need Tarmogoyfs when playing Counterbalance, right? Why can't we just use Counterbalance for card advantage? I mean, if the soft-lock takes you to late game, you should be winning anyway because it's Landstill.

So I say just run more cards that help you stabilize and isnt susceptible to removal, like Goyf. Play cards like WoG and such to help you stabilize and run cards Monastery so that you have a better clock under Counterbalance.


You mean like my list?

[Citrus-God]

You mean like my list?

Yes, something like that, except I would cut a fetchland and a Factory for 2 more Monasteries.

[Ironstickman]

@ Rockout, Citrus-God

ok ok. But if you're playing blossom you'll be playing with Cunning-PoF?

Goyf does have its weaknesses (mainly making opposing removal relevant), but I have find it quite difficult to develop LS deck that can profit balance: The CMC of the traditional lists and the land count just don't suit. Still, I'm concerned by not having a fast clock (specially if I loose g1).

Anyway, board control elements that don't conflict with balance and suit the curve: Vindicate as you suggested.

Do you have any list with black splash? tutor yes/no?

[Hanni]

but I have find it quite difficult to develop LS deck that can profit balance: The CMC of the traditional lists and the land count just don't suit. Still, I'm concerned by not having a fast clock (specially if I loose g1).


11 1cc spells and 12 2cc spells are sufficient enough to support Counterbalance.

The clock of Landstill is supposed to be irrelevant since it's designed to be a late game control deck. Manlands work well enough for all intents and purposes, and the alternate wins of either Decree, Elspeth, Dragon, and/or Ajani work just fine. Not saying that Goyf is good or bad, just explaining that the only time having a fast clock is going to matter is against combo, where CounterTop is still an improvement over other Landstill variants without it.

[Bardo]

Against Aggro, Goyfs are just sub par compared to cards like Humility. They'll just throw a Swords to Plowshares at it and just continue swinging. Even if you have a Goyf out, they'll just cast more guys and keep swinging.

I hate to be that guy, but can you talk about your actual experience playing Goyf in Landstill? My experience playing Goyf for over a year has been contrary to your comments. Sure, maybe they'll StP your Goyf, maybe they'll StP your Monastery or Factory, can't really get too concerned about that -- it's not like LS wins with Brain Freeze. Vs. Aggro, consider it a removal spell that turns into really good creature.

Vs. Combo, Goyf is a fast clock which cuts down the number of draw steps your opponent has to get into the game. He ends games fast; that's his role and is much better than beating for 2-4 with manlands while a bunch of your mana is tapped down.


Bitterblossom is just as good. Seriously, why arent you people running that instead of Goyf?
Bitterblossom has no synergy with the deck, you have no way to stop a BB that is going to kill you (e.g. Mistbind Clique) and the life loss is going to cause you to lose many games (mainly Vs. Aggro; Tendrils doesn't have to do as much work either). Goyf is much better against any deck running burn, for instance. I tested 3x BB back in the summer and yanked them. They are good in the mirror, however, since your life total is much less an issue.

[Citrus-God]

I hate to be that guy, but can you talk about your actual experience playing Goyf in Landstill? My experience playing Goyf for over a year has been contrary to your comments. Sure, maybe they'll StP your Goyf, maybe they'll StP your Monastery or Factory, can't really get too concerned about that -- it's not like LS wins with Brain Freeze. Vs. Aggro, consider it a removal spell that turns into really good creature.

I won't say Goyf is the absolute suck in this deck, but against Threshold, Goyfs can decent mainly because when they cast a removal spell on your Goyf, it isn't so consequential because of the game state and the way Threshold was designed.

Against Vial Goblins and Goyf Sligh, I was never really fond of it. Against Goyf Sligh, it just seemed like they were going to win against you anyway. They'll just cast Vexing Shusher and just throw burn spells at your head. Against Goblins, they'll just chump block with mindless hordes of randomness until they cast a Warren Weirding or a bomb.

Against Combo, Goyfs never really seemed special to me. Pre board, they're poorly equipped against a resolved Counterbalance/Top anyway, unless it's adjusted for a Thresh heavy meta. I will accept my loss game 1, and just board in Runed Halos and Mages game 2 anyway.



Vs. Combo, Goyf is a fast clock which cuts down the number of draw steps your opponent has to get into the game. He ends games fast; that's his role and is much better than beating for 2-4 with manlands while a bunch of your mana is tapped down.

So is Counterbalance. The fact Counterbalance/Top resolved already gives your opponent an incentive to move onto Game 2.


Bitterblossom has no synergy with the deck, you have no way to stop a BB that is going to kill you (e.g. Mistbind Clique) and the life loss is going to cause you to lose many games (mainly Vs. Aggro; Tendrils doesn't have to do as much work either). Goyf is much better against any deck running burn, for instance. I tested 3x BB back in the summer and yanked them. They are good in the mirror, however, since your life total is much less an issue.

Bitterblossom has synergy with the deck; it chump blocks until you gain position, it's amazing under Standstill, and its a good threat. And if you're concerned with the life loss, just play Elspeth instead then. Only difference is that you can potentially be more likely to win a match when you cast it on Turn 2. And if you can cast 2 of them, you've basically won against Thresh.

Although Bitterblossom may not be as good as Goyf against Burn, I believe Bitterblossom to be amazing against Goblins. They were evasive, deadly, and amazing at keeping me in a dominant position. They also allow me to capitalize on WoG effects.

The best way to get rid of Bitterblossoms is to use EE. No, you arent going to crack an EE just to primarily keep BB, you're doing it to destroy opposing CBs. BB just happen to leave because of course.


My evidence for testing Bitterblossom was because of late a build of TEC Nightmare posted. Yes, I am aware Goyfs were present in that list, but I saw myself boarding them out frequently. I have, however, tested Counterbalance and Goyfs in Landstill, sadly, no Bitterblossom.

[Resist_Temptation]

Bitterblossom seems to me, like it would get in the way of engineered explosives. I can understand where running Elspeth can be nice, because a token generator that can make things indestructable and on top of that doesnt get in the way of your EE. i really do not like putting anything down on the board if it will get in the way of my EE.

[Citrus-God]

Bitterblossom seems to me, like it would get in the way of engineered explosives. I can understand where running Elspeth can be nice, because a token generator that can make things indestructable and on top of that doesnt get in the way of your EE. i really do not like putting anything down on the board if it will get in the way of my EE.

Well, you could run Elspeth instead then. Elspeth is a good card, though it comes down on Turn 4, you have the permission and answers to help stall the game until you drop Elspeth.

[sengirvmpr]

I don't think splashing black (or green for that matter) is not the right call at all. UW has enough going for it as far as control and win conditions.(Eg. e.dragon,hoofprints,mishra factories,threads of disloyalty,farie conclave,ajani,decree of justice, and sometimes even monistaries) Mana bases can be hit harder making wastelands more fearsome, plus I dont think your losing a lot as well. Bitterblossems is slow,e.explosives nail just about as much as deed,and running threads to steal their hard earned goyf is almost as good as running the little green guy. To put it simply unless your meta doesnt use wastelands or stifle I would stick with two colors for resiliance.

[rsaunder]

Sorry to change the topic, but just out of curiosity, what numbers have you guys figured out are the minimums to make counterbalance useful? I've had some luck with 13 1cc's and 11 2cc's, but have you guys found any particular numbers good to shoot for in a build?

[Pelikanudo]

Sorry to change the topic, but just out of curiosity, what numbers have you guys figured out are the minimums to make counterbalance useful? I've had some luck with 13 1cc's and 11 2cc's, but have you guys found any particular numbers good to shoot for in a build?

see the it-s the fear numbers they re the perfect ones

Really poor post in the DTB forum. Verbal warning for poor writing skills. - Bardo

[FredMaster]

I recently went 5-1 on a 35 person tournament becoming 3rd with the deck.
List can be found here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21770

I won against Canadian Threshhold(#8), ANT (#7), Team America, an Extended Deck and Elfball, losing only to the mirrormatch which played 3 Vindicates - no Elspeths tho.
During the entire tournament I used the Wish exactly one time to pitch it into a Force of Will. A buddy of mine who became 5th played 3 Vindicates and was totally satisfied with it. I'm currently thinking about just cutting the Wish for 2 Vindicates and a more versatile and bigger sideboard.

Comments?

[aldaryn]

Since we're discussing counterbalance, why has the focus shifted away from Zvi's Worlds 2007 list, i.e. Enlightened Tutor-powered? It seems like it gives you a natural toolbox like Cunning Wish, but has insane synergies with CounterTop - finds both, shuffles for Top, puts a card where you want for Counterbalance...Not to mention a more resilient mana base. Any particular metagame shift I'm unaware of that's led away from this type of build?

[rockout]

@fredmaster: How amazing was Elspeth for you?

I ran an E. Tutor toolbox in a UWb shell. I'll post the list:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FNM] Counterspell
3 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag - amazing
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Propaganda
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Humility - broken
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

You might be thinking, "Propaganda?" I was able to beat Ichorid twice on my way to a top 8 with this build. I even went end of turn E. Tutor for tormod's crypt on the play and got rid of 20 cards that be lion's eye diamond + breakthrough into his yard.

It treated my well all day. I lost in the top 8 to an epic survival match.

The changes, to the list, if I took it to a tournament tomorrow would be -3 Hoofprints +1 decree +2 Elspeth. -2 Pulse of the Fields +2 Ajani. You can always add Counterbalance to the list.

[Wargoos]

I was the Team America guy Fred beat.
He won one game just by dropping the Elspeth producing one token and swinging in.
When i finally got a crit (turn6) he dropped humility and that was the sargnagel (= coffins nail) for me.

I can say that Fred is totally amazed by the elspeths and i don't see a time he would ever drop just one of them.
It's just too strong with humility and still neat without it.

As for me i'm convinced by those planesdudes as well and would always play them.
Besides that my list looks quite the same since we are teammates.

[aldaryn]

If Hoofprints is amazing, why are you removing it? ...?

[Resist_Temptation]

the only problem i see with running bitterblossom is how bad of synergy it has with engineered explosives. unless you really do not plan to be using EE for 2...which is but a pipe dream. I happen to like cunning wish and it really helps..depending on what matchup you have. it helps you in the burn matchup if you have access to pulse of the fields first game. and then it also gives you access to extirpate game one and also i am not pleased with counterbalance in landstill. Engineered Explosives is the most effective mass removal spell, and when many of the formats great creatures happen to be 2cc, it is not smart to be running multiple copies of 2cc permanents, that will actually stay on the table...i dont count standstill seeing as you shouldn't be dropping it while a threat is one the board. and by looking at your sidboard i can see why cunning wish was useless. If you are running wish you might as well have a good wishboard. by throwing cunning wish into a deck it wont make it good. I figure if you tune the sideboard to actually accomadate for having decent one ofs in the sideboard, you will like cunning wish much more. a sample WishBoard that i got from mossivo looks something like this.
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the fields
2 Blue elemental blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Return to Dust
Although keep in mind the maindeck was different, so some of these choices may not work in your deck.

[klaus]

I recently went 5-1 on a 35 person tournament becoming 3rd with the deck.
List can be found here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21770

I won against Canadian Threshhold(#8), ANT (#7), Team America, an Extended Deck and Elfball, losing only to the mirrormatch which played 3 Vindicates - no Elspeths tho.
During the entire tournament I used the Wish exactly one time to pitch it into a Force of Will. A buddy of mine who became 5th played 3 Vindicates and was totally satisfied with it. I'm currently thinking about just cutting the Wish for 2 Vindicates and a more versatile and bigger sideboard.
Comments?

NQN (Sudmann) wasn't too impressed with Vindicates in his testing. Then again he hardly ever drew them :rolleyes:

I actually haven't gotten to exessive testing on Vindicates sofar. Whenever they showed up though I mostly liked them better than Wishes simply for their relative speed.
In some situations they're a Wrath for CMC3 in others they're a CMC3 Disenchant. In fact Vindicates do most stuff Wishes do just more efficiently (read: faster). Vindicates are a one-card toolbox, which makes up for their sorceryness and mana requirements.
Speed and versatility is what every true control deck should seek. That's why I believe adding 2-3 Vindicates can be viewed as a natural evolution.

Some might argue Wishes belong to the untouchable core of every competitive LS shell. Some might claim that it comes down to mere play style preferences. I claim that with TA growing more and more popular and most archetypes getting access to more powerful and faster spells, Wishstill will turn out too clunky to compete for the crown.

Of course there are several situations in which Cunning Wish is strictly better than Vindicate. Burn, Sligh and swarmaggro.dec being popular examples. (Humility+) Wish-> POT.Fields might be the only way to win such games against a competent opponent with regular topdecking skills. But as Fredmaster pointed out, getting rid of Wishes opens the up to more focussed, better tuned SBs.
Lastly, here's one that I'd take to an unknown meta:

4 Meddling Mage
2 Runed Halo/Ethersworn Canonist
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

[mossivo1986]

I like the idea of doing a split with cannonist and meddling mage like 2-1 in mages favor. Basicly sliding the cannonist against combo obv and so you can tutor for it, but basicly my problem lies in the fact that mage is simply better, and also you can wish for relic, so why put cannonist in two slots that your already using to stabilze 3-4 other matches aka beb, hydro slots.

in non wish versions which is what I think you refering to with your sb I would still play the fourth relic over academy ruin's able tormod. The random chance that your draw your tormod's against aggro loam and still giving them enough tempo to swing for a game win is much more then i'd really prefer. I'd rather take my chances on getting a relic or not getting a relic at all. Plus most versions now are packing atleast 1 enli tutor main or sb so you can have up to a 1-7 chance of getting a relic + whatever card advantage you have by turn 4.

[rockout]

If Hoofprints is amazing, why are you removing it? ...?

I forgot to take out my own personal notes. After a tournament, I usually go through each card and rate it and see if it still belongs in my decks. Hoofprints was amazing at that tournament but I have elspeth now which is a million times better.

[rsaunder]

@Klaus: Is there any particular reason you've found to run vindicate over Oblivion ring? I know being able to blow up lands is nice, as it the fact that vindicate can't be disenchanted, but it's WAY easier to cast and almost as versatile.

[rockout]

EE @ 3 kills Oblivion Ring and the threat you wanted to get rid of is back killing you. Vindicate gets rid of the problem and it only comes back with recursion.

[Citrus-God]

@Klaus: Is there any particular reason you've found to run vindicate over Oblivion ring? I know being able to blow up lands is nice, as it the fact that vindicate can't be disenchanted, but it's WAY easier to cast and almost as versatile.

Game 2, regardless of the Landstill build, they're going to board Krosan Grips in against you. That makes Oblivion Ring suck.

[mossivo1986]

Ok so I haven't gotten to test this matchup yet, but how goes the matchup with canadian thrash for wish based versions?

Also has anyone gotten to test the Team America matchup? If so how did you do and what r ur conclusions?

[FredMaster]

Also has anyone gotten to test the Team America matchup? If so how did you do and what r ur conclusions?
Alright this matchup is tough. If they are able to wreck you with LD or at least keep you on about 3 mana, they'll win.
Especially if they're on the play it is hard to establish your manabase with fetchies. So I think this MU is all about the LD.
Make sure that you board in your Relics. Those are really important.

Canadian Threshhold, I assume, will be a little easier since they don't have as much manadenial and no Tombstalker. An early Relic can weaken the opponent reasonably as well.

TA is about 55-45 for us while Canadian Threshhold should be a 60-40.

[klaus]

in non wish versions which is what I think you refering to with your sb I would still play the fourth relic over academy ruin's able tormod.

2 more reasons to run the 3-1 Relic-Crypt split (over 4-0):
- you can tutor for Crypt via Tolaria West
- you have more outs to a resolved Needle on Relic



TA is about 55-45 for us while Canadian Threshhold should be a 60-40.
I haven't tested this MU a lot. But I really think it is 65-35 in TA's favor preboard and 55-45 postboard. Getting to 4 mana AND succesfully cast a spell is really tough.
If we don't find 2 early STPs it's gg mostly.

[Valdez]

@klaus:
I can't agree that Vindicate > Wish is a "natural evolution", I think that it depends to the matagame, wich one is superior.

Wish was added because of his ability to shut down recurrsion by wishing Extirpate, wich is quite rellevant in mus like Loam [Aggro Loam, CAL, Eternal Garden], Giftstill, ITF and Survival/Rock.
Besides Extirpate is much better than Relic vs. u-based control.

@Fred:
I have to agree with Klaus, TA is about 65% in their favor.
The Canadian Thresh mu seems quite even to me, it seems that you undersemite the burnspells, they're a pita without Wish.

[klaus]

@klaus:
I can't agree that Vindicate > Wish is a "natural evolution", I think that it depends to the metagame, wich one is superior.

Agreed.
+ Caught in the act...
Hach, I was just being in the mood to prove my points via exaggeration :laugh: and simplification :wink:
Anyway, I'd strongly suggest Vindicate>Wish in metas without or hardly any Loam.dec.

I'm aware that Wish also serves the purpose to at least be able to win G1s against ANY archetype. I'm just very skeptical of its gain(outs)VS.pain(slowness+SB limitations) relation when compared to Vindicate.

[bigbear102]

@Klaus: Is there any particular reason you've found to run vindicate over Oblivion ring? I know being able to blow up lands is nice, as it the fact that vindicate can't be disenchanted, but it's WAY easier to cast and almost as versatile.

It seems like Vindicate is almost strictly better than O. Ring if you are running black anyway. You have STP to deal with recurring creatures, and Vindicate is more versatile, and usually more of a permanent answer.

Has anyone been playing Moat in their builds? In my testing 2-3 Moat is helps a lot of matchups. If you are playing Elspeth then all of your creatures are fine, and if not you have Eternal Dragon to win with. It has made matches like Dreadstill and Canadian Thresh even more in my favor, and it allows you to ignore Goyf and focus purely on TS in the TA matchup.

Just a few thoughts.

[klaus]

It seems like Vindicate is almost strictly better than O. Ring if you are running black anyway. You have STP to deal with recurring creatures, and Vindicate is more versatile, and usually more of a permanent answer.
Has anyone been playing Moat in their builds? In my testing 2-3 Moat is helps a lot of matchups. If you are playing Elspeth then all of your creatures are fine, and if not you have Eternal Dragon to win with. It has made matches like Dreadstill and Canadian Thresh even more in my favor, and it allows you to ignore Goyf and focus purely on TS in the TA matchup.

Moat seems tempting at first glance. So I did a mini survey just for you. :smile:

Here is a draft of creature-based archetpyes from deckcheck.net (A-G).

>>HumilityVS.Moat.<<

Affinity----------Humility wins (Ornitopter, Hoverguard)
Aggro Loam--Moat wins (with a black splash for Confidant I'd consider it a tie)
Aluren ----------Humility wins.
Angel Stompy-----Humility wins
Berserk Stompy---Moat wins
Bomberman-------Humility wins___OK. not so relevant
Boros Deck Wins-----Moat wins
Cephalid Breakfast----Humility wins
CounterSliver-----------Humility wins (Winged Sliver)
Deadguy Ale------------Humility wins (Confidant, Specter, Stalker)
Death & Taxes---------Humility wins. (Serra Av., S. Cloaker, Mangara)
Dragon Stompy--------Humility wins (Pitdragon, Slogger,) ...almost tied.
Dreaded Fish----------Tie. (ConfidantVS.no fliers)
Dreadstill---------------Moat wins.
Elves!--------------------Moat wins (almost tie due to that Naturalize Elve)
Enchantress-----------Humility wins
Eternal Garden-------Moat wins__________also not relevant.
Faerie Stompy--------Humility wins big time
Faeries-----------------Humility wins_______not too relevant either.
Fish---------------------Dark Confidant, Avenger = Humility wins
Goblins----------------Moat wins

Sofar it's 13-7 in Humilitie's favor (almost twice as good).
Also note that in some cases in which Moat won it did so not too impressively.
-
Peace.

[matelml]

If a deck runs Confidant but no answers to Moat, which most of the decks don't, then I would still consider Moat superior. This changes with Krosan Grip G2, but still, Humility also dies to Grip.

[rockout]

I think Moat is only better when you are staring down lethal damage next turn and you rip Humility that could have been a Moat and would have saved you.

Moat does have good synergy with Elspeth, but is it a better synergy than Humility and Elspeth? In my testing, I don't think so.

If you have Moat on the board and they have no answer, but still are able to remove your only outs in the form of Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, and Elspeth through Swords, Yixid Jailer, Needle, Relic, Crypt... What do you do then? As my teammate would say, "Weep openly."

[mossivo1986]

The only situation I can think of that moat would surpass humility is if the suicide green deck I believe called eva green comes are you with their "1/1" creature then pumps it a bagillion times and finishes it off with a beserk. That said I can't see where moat would EVER replace humility. The ability to not only take away the text of creatures, but also take away their power level and replace it with a 1/1 for x mana, which anything more then one is overcosted obv. Moat is strictly worse then the effects that humility brings to the table.

The key to humility is that it turns utility creatures and win conditions into scrap. Where moat turns win conditions that don't have flying into scrap.

I think in the 4-500 games i've played with landstill variants I remember losing one relevant game with humility in play. And that ratio says it all for me.

P.S. The match I lost was to suic black after missing ee, swords, and them ripping both my lands out of hand via well timed first turn ritual, thoughtseize, hymn.

Needless to say I was at like four and I dropped humility later that game and I rip land land land land like a champ. And none of those lands were mishra;s :(

[rockout]

Hey guys,

I wanted to type up a tournament report for The Mana Leak Open where I played Landstill and it piloted fairly well. First my list, then the tournament report.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

I was expecting lots of combo and dreadstill and decks that beat those decks (thresh, dragonstompy, and team america.) I said to myself the day before the tournament if I play blue all day I'll make top 8. I played blue once and won that round.

Round 1: UGB Dreadstill 2-0
Game 1: We draw go for a while until I play EE at 1 as a preventative measure since I figured he might be playing dreadstill, I was lucky enough to guess right. I play standstill and proceed to draw all my relevant threats of FoF and Elspeth. The game ends quickly with him not playing anything but counterbalance which got gripped.
Board: +1 Krosan Grip -1 Standstill
Game 2: I play a turn 1 EE @ 1. He plays an EE @ 1 to kill my EE sorry :-(. I draw the 7th land off the top to play Eternal Dragon and he draws the wasteland a turn too late to stop him from coming into play. At the end of the game he shows me his next card was krosan grip (and his hand dreadnaught and trickbind) to get rid of my EE @ 1.

Round 2: DJ Dragonstompy (My teammate) 0-2
Game 1: I keeps a slow hand and I get Eternal Dragon online to fetch basic plains. I drop Humility turn 4 and proceed to win the game easily.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blasts -1 Decrees -2 Krosan Grip (I can't cast grip under a moon effect)
Game 2: He locks me under moon effect after moon effect. I can't draw a blue source with a hand full of 7 blue cards Standstill x 2, Fact or Fiction, Blue Elemental Blast...
Game 3: I mull to 4 with no lands but I have Force, Counterspell, Blue Elemental Blast, Swords. I keep. He proceeds to have triple moon effect starting from turn 3 to turn 5. I draw a fetchland the turn after he finally lands a moon effect.

Round 3: Matt Abold Survival 2-0
Game 1: He plays turn 1 Quirion Ranger. I have no idea what he's playing at that point. He plays a Tarmogoyf. He plays thoughtseize and sees Elspeth, Elspeth, FoF, Grip, Lands and I'm at four land, he takes the FoF. I stabilize at 3 life with Elspeth and a well timed wrath. I proceed to win.
Board: +1 Grip +3 Relic +2 Ajani (fearing needle on all my win conditions) -1 Decree -1 Elspeth -1 Tundra -2 Counterspell
Game 2: Turn 1 Quirion Ranger. He plays Survival turn 3 and is stuck at 2 lands. I grip his Survival on my third turn and waste his white source a few turns later. At one point I had Ajani and Elspeth on the board with a Standstill.

Round 4: Jesse Hatfield Templar Goblins 0-2
Game 1: I have triple swords and a standstill in my opening hand. He plays vial which I EE away a turn later. He kept tapping down my mishra's with port and I lose like I figured I would. I attack 3 times with a factory before it gets wasted. He thoughtseized my Elspeth if I remember correctly. No other win conditions to my name.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blast +2 Ajani -1 Wrath -1 Tundra -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree

Game 2: I force his turn 1 Aether Vial and he doesn't have the gas. I get to turn 4 and drop Ajani. I gain a lot of life and put a 23/23 token into play after a decree for 2 tokens. His turn goes Siege-Gang Commander. He shots both my 1/1s on his turn and Warren Wierding my 23/23 when I had a factory on the board, but I might have been tapped out (savage misplay!) We go draw go for about a million turns and he beats me when I can't find another out. He played all of his Siege-Gang Commanders in our game 2. I merely drew a lot of land and counters but little business.

Round 5: Rich Meyst Elf Storm 2-0
Game 1: I felt bad because he plays forest llanowar elves and I say "Elf Ball?" He smiles. Since I knew what he was playing I slow played my hand with force, ee, standstill, swords, and humility. I force a glimpse. Play Humility. He tries to go into attack mode. My turn I kill his team with a 6 for 1 with EE @ 1. He scoops.
Board: +3 Meddling Mage -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree
Game 2: I force his turn 2 Glimpse which he said later would have won it for him. I play a turn 2 meddling mage on heritage druid and a few turns later EE @ 1 for a huge advantage. I also forced a Regal Force at some point with 6 Elves on the field.

All in all, I beat the decks I should have beaten and lost to the decks I beat in testing. Imagine that. I went 10-0 in DS testing over the weekend. And proceed to lose horribly to it. Not the best tournament report, I do like sharing my deck and my experience with the people not their. I think all in all I made a good meta choice since all the decks I expected where at the tournament in force. I do wish I played the UWb version with 3 Vindicates main board, but I only own two of them at the moment.

Card of the tournament: Elspeth. Hands down. At one point I got laughed at for playing Elspeth, which I proceeded to win that game on her back.

[mossivo1986]

Hey guys,

I wanted to type up a tournament report for The Mana Leak Open where I played Landstill and it piloted fairly well. First my list, then the tournament report.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

I was expecting lots of combo and dreadstill and decks that beat those decks (thresh, dragonstompy, and team america.) I said to myself the day before the tournament if I play blue all day I'll make top 8. I played blue once and won that round.

Round 1: UGB Dreadstill 2-0
Game 1: We draw go for a while until I play EE at 1 as a preventative measure since I figured he might be playing dreadstill, I was lucky enough to guess right. I play standstill and proceed to draw all my relevant threats of FoF and Elspeth. The game ends quickly with him not playing anything but counterbalance which got gripped.
Board: +1 Krosan Grip -1 Standstill
Game 2: I play a turn 1 EE @ 1. He plays an EE @ 1 to kill my EE sorry :-(. I draw the 7th land off the top to play Eternal Dragon and he draws the wasteland a turn too late to stop him from coming into play. At the end of the game he shows me his next card was krosan grip (and his hand dreadnaught and trickbind) to get rid of my EE @ 1.

Round 2: DJ Dragonstompy (My teammate) 0-2
Game 1: I keeps a slow hand and I get Eternal Dragon online to fetch basic plains. I drop Humility turn 4 and proceed to win the game easily.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blasts -1 Decrees -2 Krosan Grip (I can't cast grip under a moon effect)
Game 2: He locks me under moon effect after moon effect. I can't draw a blue source with a hand full of 7 blue cards Standstill x 2, Fact or Fiction, Blue Elemental Blast...
Game 3: I mull to 4 with no lands but I have Force, Counterspell, Blue Elemental Blast, Swords. I keep. He proceeds to have triple moon effect starting from turn 3 to turn 5. I draw a fetchland the turn after he finally lands a moon effect.

Round 3: Matt Abold Survival 2-0
Game 1: He plays turn 1 Quirion Ranger. I have no idea what he's playing at that point. He plays a Tarmogoyf. He plays thoughtseize and sees Elspeth, Elspeth, FoF, Grip, Lands and I'm at four land, he takes the FoF. I stabilize at 3 life with Elspeth and a well timed wrath. I proceed to win.
Board: +1 Grip +3 Relic +2 Ajani (fearing needle on all my win conditions) -1 Decree -1 Elspeth -1 Tundra -2 Counterspell
Game 2: Turn 1 Quirion Ranger. He plays Survival turn 3 and is stuck at 2 lands. I grip his Survival on my third turn and waste his white source a few turns later. At one point I had Ajani and Elspeth on the board with a Standstill.

Round 4: Jesse Hatfield Templar Goblins 0-2
Game 1: I have triple swords and a standstill in my opening hand. He plays vial which I EE away a turn later. He kept tapping down my mishra's with port and I lose like I figured I would. I attack 3 times with a factory before it gets wasted. He thoughtseized my Elspeth if I remember correctly. No other win conditions to my name.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blast +2 Ajani -1 Wrath -1 Tundra -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree

Game 2: I force his turn 1 Aether Vial and he doesn't have the gas. I get to turn 4 and drop Ajani. I gain a lot of life and put a 23/23 token into play after a decree for 2 tokens. His turn goes Siege-Gang Commander. He shots both my 1/1s on his turn and Warren Wierding my 23/23 when I had a factory on the board, but I might have been tapped out (savage misplay!) We go draw go for about a million turns and he beats me when I can't find another out. He played all of his Siege-Gang Commanders in our game 2. I merely drew a lot of land and counters but little business.

Round 5: Rich Meyst Elf Storm 2-0
Game 1: I felt bad because he plays forest llanowar elves and I say "Elf Ball?" He smiles. Since I knew what he was playing I slow played my hand with force, ee, standstill, swords, and humility. I force a glimpse. Play Humility. He tries to go into attack mode. My turn I kill his team with a 6 for 1 with EE @ 1. He scoops.
Board: +3 Meddling Mage -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree
Game 2: I force his turn 2 Glimpse which he said later would have won it for him. I play a turn 2 meddling mage on heritage druid and a few turns later EE @ 1 for a huge advantage. I also forced a Regal Force at some point with 6 Elves on the field.

All in all, I beat the decks I should have beaten and lost to the decks I beat in testing. Imagine that. I went 10-0 in DS testing over the weekend. And proceed to lose horribly to it. Not the best tournament report, I do like sharing my deck and my experience with the people not their. I think all in all I made a good meta choice since all the decks I expected where at the tournament in force. I do wish I played the UWb version with 3 Vindicates main board, but I only own two of them at the moment.

Card of the tournament: Elspeth. Hands down. At one point I got laughed at for playing Elspeth, which I proceeded to win that game on her back.

"Card of the tournament: Elspeth. Hands down. At one point I got laughed at for playing Elspeth, which I proceeded to win that game on her back."

thats just gold dude. I love how good elspeth is in the d stompy matchup, blockin them freakin sofi'd simian spirit guides all day long :)

[klaus]

@rockout:
Here are some thoughts regarding you SB plans:

--Round 3-- Unless the Survival player splashed red for Magus of the moon, boarding out Basic Island (instead of Tundra) would have been the better choice.

--Round 1--
Quote: "Game 2: I play a turn 1 EE @ 1. He plays an EE @ 1 to kill my EE"
->He had to play it at 0 to be able to kill yours :)

--Round 4-- Jesse with Goblins - boarding out Wrath seems horrible.
--
Also, did you like those 3 Wastelands? I can't seem to find a Crucible which would make sense reg. your plan C (mana denial via WL).

[Citrus-God]

Round 4: Jesse Hatfield Templar Goblins 0-2
Game 1: I have triple swords and a standstill in my opening hand. He plays vial which I EE away a turn later. He kept tapping down my mishra's with port and I lose like I figured I would. I attack 3 times with a factory before it gets wasted. He thoughtseized my Elspeth if I remember correctly. No other win conditions to my name.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blast +2 Ajani -1 Wrath -1 Tundra -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree

Game 2: I force his turn 1 Aether Vial and he doesn't have the gas. I get to turn 4 and drop Ajani. I gain a lot of life and put a 23/23 token into play after a decree for 2 tokens. His turn goes Siege-Gang Commander. He shots both my 1/1s on his turn and Warren Wierding my 23/23 when I had a factory on the board, but I might have been tapped out (savage misplay!) We go draw go for about a million turns and he beats me when I can't find another out. He played all of his Siege-Gang Commanders in our game 2. I merely drew a lot of land and counters but little business.

You should have boarded differently against Goblins. Cards you should be definitely be boarding out are an 1-2 Elspeth, 1 Force of Will, and maybe the Krosan Grips. I would like to defend that boarding out a Wrath of God is wrong here because it makes you reliant on Humility and that boarding out a Land is especially wrong when you're facing a deck with 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports. I think how you should have boarded is

-2 Elspeth
-1 Force of Will (Card disadvantage and it cripples the hands you keep after your first mulligan)
-2 Krosan Grip

+3 BEB
+2 Ajani

If you want, you can also board out 2 FoWs instead of one and keep a Krosan Grip in to handle AEther Vial.

And how you should be approaching this match up is keep hands that can handle early threats like Lackey and Vial, so EE is good here obviously. From there, you proceed to stall to Turn 4 and then you either keep the board clean and cast BEB effects and other counters to keep your opponent in check, or you drop a Humility and just end the game. If you don't draw Humility and you cast a WoG instead, aggressively hard cast DoJ when you hit 8 mana or you use Ajani's Avater ability.

You should have even more assurance of this because Templar Goblins doesnt run Krosan Grips. If you're facing a RGB build, board out the Humilities instead of Elspeth.

Your perception and general plan of the Vial Goblins match up is actually quite optimal, but it's the boarding I have a problem with.


Against Dreadstill, I wouldn't board out a Standstill: you play better under Standstill than Dreadstill does. What you should board out in this match up are both copies of Wrath of God and 1-2 Swords to Plowshares for the 3rd Krosan Grip and 1-2 Runed Haloes. Feel free to cut any non-blue card for the 3rd Halo. If the Dreadstill player is playing Green, he's bound to board Grips against you as well. Over flow your board with Enchantments that protect you from Dreadnought, opposing Factories, and Tarmogoyfs so that Humility doesn't look like the total suck after your opponent Grips it EOT. Having Runed Halos in addition to Humility on the board is awesome.

Against Dragon Stompy, you should be boarding in Runed Halos. Runed Halo is awesome against Dragon Stompy and not boarding it in is probably half the reason why you lost that match up. Also, getting 2 Basic Plains on the board should be your priority anyways so you can cast WoGs, Humilities and Elspeth. Also, Runed Halo gets around Chalice for 1. Also, with Grips, you can float Green mana obv. Also, you're boarding in BEBs which should give you even more of an incentive to keep Grips in, but Runed Halos will do just fine. For now, I'd say board the following;

-2 Fact or Fiction/Krosan Grip
-1 Counterspell
-2 Wrath of God
-1 Swords to Plowshares/DoJ/Elspeth

+3 BEB
+3 Runed Halo


Also, playing that build of Landstill requires a lot of post-board experience. If you ask Geoff Smelski/Konsultant, he will tell you that all the games other decks steal from him are pre-board; post-board he almost always ends up winning because his post-board skills are amazing.

Also, the only reason why this deck ever does well is because the Sideboard is good with the Maindeck. You love the Sideboard of this deck because it's how you beat Combo, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and other really sticky match ups.

[DuKeLiO]

The TA vs. Landstill painring differs a lot with one or other version. I was tensting in a version with 4 Vindicate and TA was very easy to beat beacuse we have too many answers for his 8-10 creatures. I also played 4 Stp, 2-3 Wrath (testing the slot) and 3 Engineered Explosives.

[klaus]

The TA vs. Landstill painring differs a lot with one or other version. I was tensting in a version with 4 Vindicate and TA was very easy to beat beacuse we have too many answers for his 8-10 creatures. I also played 4 Stp, 2-3 Wrath (testing the slot) and 3 Engineered Explosives.
LOL: "painring" :laugh:

And yes, Vindicate does make the TA MU easier.

[bigbear102]

Moat seems tempting at first glance. So I did a mini survey just for you. :smile:

Here is a draft of creature-based archetpyes from deckcheck.net (A-G).

>>HumilityVS.Moat.<<

Affinity----------Humility wins (Ornitopter, Hoverguard)
Aggro Loam--Moat wins (with a black splash for Confidant I'd consider it a tie)
Aluren ----------Humility wins.
Angel Stompy-----Humility wins
Berserk Stompy---Moat wins
Bomberman-------Humility wins___OK. not so relevant
Boros Deck Wins-----Moat wins
Cephalid Breakfast----Humility wins
CounterSliver-----------Humility wins (Winged Sliver)
Deadguy Ale------------Humility wins (Confidant, Specter, Stalker)
Death & Taxes---------Humility wins. (Serra Av., S. Cloaker, Mangara)
Dragon Stompy--------Humility wins (Pitdragon, Slogger,) ...almost tied.
Dreaded Fish----------Tie. (ConfidantVS.no fliers)
Dreadstill---------------Moat wins.
Elves!--------------------Moat wins (almost tie due to that Naturalize Elve)
Enchantress-----------Humility wins
Eternal Garden-------Moat wins__________also not relevant.
Faerie Stompy--------Humility wins big time
Faeries-----------------Humility wins_______not too relevant either.
Fish---------------------Dark Confidant, Avenger = Humility wins
Goblins----------------Moat wins

Sofar it's 13-7 in Humilitie's favor (almost twice as good).
Also note that in some cases in which Moat won it did so not too impressively.
-
Peace.

Just because you play Moat doesn't mean that every other piece of removal in your deck is gone. I never even said that I didn't play Humility. Usually I have 2 Moat/1 Humility. I think in the most popular matches Moat is better. Thresh decks very very rarely play any flyers anymore. Goblins does not. Survival plays very few. Warrens tokens don't fly (not that a 4 drop helps much there). Dreadnaught has trample... but still can't swim.

Your Angel Stompy decision is just plain wrong. They have 4 flying creatures compared to 5-8 equipment. The equipment is the problem here. If I can't deal with 4 angels then I guess I lose. But dealing with 4 angels seems easier than dealing with 5-8 pieces of equipment on any given creature.

That is somewhat less true in the Dragon Stompy matchup because they play 8 relevant creatures. Unless of course you are above 12, then it's back to 4 again.

I will grant you that the 3rd Stompy, Faerie Stompy, is not hampered by Moat. It is also true that Humility does not do much to stop them from equipping random 1/1 dorks and swinging for 5 and drawing a card.

Also, Affinity, Cephalid Breakfast, and Aggroloam should all have won by the time a 4 drop hits unless you can disrupt them some other way anyway. I'm more worried about GY hate in the 2nd two than stopping their creatures
most of the time anyway.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just the fact that if a deck has a flying creature then it is good against Moat. I'll take a card that nullifies all but 4-8 creatures in an aggro matchup any day. Especially when the same card nullifies entire game plans in much of the field.

I played Rabid Wombat and Humility based Landstill builds for a very long time, and they worked wonders, but it still doesn't mean that Moat does not deserve a place in a well-rounded control deck. Playing both is most powerful, but seeing as I already play Wrath and Swords and EE to deal with the 4-8 creatures left in the deck that I care about, I would rather have Moat most of the time.


I think Moat is only better when you are staring down lethal damage next turn and you rip Humility that could have been a Moat and would have saved you.

Moat does have good synergy with Elspeth, but is it a better synergy than Humility and Elspeth? In my testing, I don't think so.

If you have Moat on the board and they have no answer, but still are able to remove your only outs in the form of Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, and Elspeth through Swords, Yixid Jailer, Needle, Relic, Crypt... What do you do then? As my teammate would say, "Weep openly."

Elspeth has great synergy with Humility, if you never want to actually win the game, or if they play more than 1 creature per turn/have more than 1 out when you drop Elspeth. She is a 1 critter per turn gal, meaning you sit there and chump once while the other creatures they have get through. I would rather ignore their other creatures and swing with a 4/4 flyer every turn, saving your removal for the few relevant creatures left in their deck.

As for them locking you out of all of your win conditions, aren't you a control deck? I'm pretty sure Landstill plays a few counterspells to stop them from removing EVERY win condition. If you can't kill a needle or a crypt before you try to win, then take the draw. If a deck can successfully remove upwards of 7 cards from my deck without me doing anything about it, then congratulations. The likelihood of that occurring seems a bit small to me though.

[rockout]

@Mossivo1986: Elspeth is the real deal.

@Klaus: He tried to blow up my EE @ 1 with an EE @ 1 and I said you can't do that which is why I put a frown after the statement. I felt kind of bad for him since I didn't have any 1 drops for him to kill.

I love the 3 wastelands because being able to kill a land turn 1 is just fine by me. I don't want to have to wait to get the lands to activate dust bowl, even though dust bowl is better than wasteland without crucible.

@Citrus-God: Really? I board out Elspeth against Goblins? In each game he didn't have more than 2 1/1s on the board at a time. I know boarding out a wrath wasn't the optimal choice. I should have boarded out an EE instead of a Wrath. Either way, I didn't see Humility, Wrath, or Elspeth, and at one point in game 1 I FoF into Land, Force, Brainstorm, Land, EE and he splits the pile EE/Land and Force/Brainstorm/Land and he only has a Warchief and an Aether Vial at 3. I took the Brainstorm pile thinking I would draw into an answer, but when I brainstormed I saw Land/Land/Force. I realized a turn later when he played 3x 3 drops in the form of Matron/Matron/Matron that I should have gone for and played the EE @ 3 off the FoF. I didn't know what was in his hand and digging three cards deeper with a fetch land seemed good at the time. I honestly think the optimal siding for this match-up should have been +3 BEB +2 Ajani -1 Decree -1 Tundra - 2 Krosan Grip -1 EE because each of those cards isn't that stellar in the match-up. The hardest part about this match-up was port. If I had Dustbowl, I would have been able to keep the ground locked with my two factories.

I need wrath against Dreadstill so I can play around CB. I played an EE @ 1 in game 1 on turn 3 blind not knowing if he was even playing Dreadnaught and game 2 I played EE @ 1 turn 1 and it won me the game because I can swords his Goyf all day. He showed me Krosan Grip, Trickbind, Dreadnaught the turn I killed him so EE @ 1 is pretty amazing against Dreadstill.

Against DS, game 2 I got locked out under a moon effect and had double white with 5 lands total and had 7 blue cards in my hand (no joke.) I cycled decree for two the turn I was going to die and he played pyrokinesis killing my two tokens. Game 3, I don't know if you read my tournament report, but I mulled to 4 with no land and BEB, Force, Swords, CS. He plays mountain go. I draw factory. He plays a moon effect turn 3-5. I force the first. The 2nd resolves turn 4. My response is fetchland that probably would have made the game not as bad as draw no lands. I've tested Dragonstompy more than any other deck. I was ready for it and boarded correctly. But, sometimes, the DS player just gets those insane draws, like triple moon effect against a deck that plays a lot of non-basics.

I agree with your comment about boarding. A single mistake here or there can lose a match, but all in all I think I boarded well and the deck performed like it was suppose to all day. I knew the meta was going to be Team America, Combo, and Dreadstill and DS and I came prepared to beat those decks. Sadly, I lost to one of those decks on saturday.

@BigBear: I know, I was merely joking about them getting rid of all my win conditions. Sarcasm is lost over the internet. Post your list when you get a chance with the 2/1 Moat/Humilty split. I'd like to do a little testing with it.

[NQN]

I don´t understand why people would EVER consider a Moat beeing better than Humility. Despite the fact that you rarely loose against 1/1 critters, it prevents Comes Into Play ability which is just insane! Moat for example does nothing against survival while humility just wins. In Klaus example it´s always like:
Moat wins, but Humility would have done nearly the same job
Humility obv wins
Moat wins, but..
Got it? Humility is t3h pwnz0rs while Moat is just "I´m expensive and worse, don´t play me!"

Greets,
NQN

[bigbear102]

I don´t understand why people would EVER consider a Moat beeing better than Humility. Despite the fact that you rarely loose against 1/1 critters, it prevents Comes Into Play ability which is just insane! Moat for example does nothing against survival while humility just wins. In Klaus example it´s always like:
Moat wins, but Humility would have done nearly the same job
Humility obv wins
Moat wins, but..
Got it? Humility is t3h pwnz0rs while Moat is just "I´m expensive and worse, don´t play me!"

Greets,
NQN


Thresh decks very very rarely play any flyers anymore. Goblins does not.

One reason why Moat is better than Humility.

There is also Equipment. Humility does not stop equipment, while Moat stops it on every non-flying creature.

Again, I am not saying that Moat is strictly better than Humility, I just think it is better in more of the common matchups.

I will give you that Moat blows against Survival, but if you can keep survivals off the table, then it usually buys you several turns, especially game 1. That is all Humility does against Survival most of the time anyway, because they can just keep playing 1/1 dorks. Having played both decks and agianst both cards, humility is definitely better in the match, but by no means is it game ending.

Also, this is the DTB forum, so if you could actually put some substance into your posts it would be appreciated.

As for a decklist, this is off the top of my head, but I think it's pretty close to the one I am currently running.

4x Force
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

2x Engineered Explosives
3x Wrath of god
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Moat
1x Humility

2x Eternal Dragon
2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice

1x Academy Ruins
4x Mishras Factory
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Tropical Island
4x Island
4x Plains

SB:
3x Orim's Chant
2x Krosan Grip
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Ajani
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast

[klaus]

@Rockout:

Here's another tip: Never board out EEs against Goblins, especially not on the play.
Turn1 basic land->EE@1 is pretty much the best play you could possibly make, allowing you to drop LS on your following turn over Vial, and allowing you to destroy Lackey, Mogg, too.
In fact, Lackey and Vial are your worst enemies until turn 4/5 when Ringleader takes their place. So EE deserves its slot :) G2s/3s
Those 2 cards and the question whether you're able to handle them till turn2 will mostly determine the winner.

[rockout]

@Klaus: I agree. Turn 1, EE @ 1 against goblins is good.

@Bigbear: I don't see a wasteland effect in your deck. I'm not sure if maybe you forgot it when typing up the list or what not but please comment on that. How good is chant vs. meddling mage/runed halo in your testing? It's a one time only stop their combo versus a permanent they have to play around or deal with to win. Other than that, the list looks pretty standard and tight.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus-God: Really? I board out Elspeth against Goblins? In each game he didn't have more than 2 1/1s on the board at a time.

That isn't an excuse for keeping Elspeth in over Wrath of God. WoG wipes the board clean of resolved Siege-Gang Commanders, Worts, Warcheifs and other stupid things. Seriously, the only excuse you have for keeping Elspeth in is because Mogg Fanatics and Matrons are scary for some reason.


I know boarding out a wrath wasn't the optimal choice. I should have boarded out an EE instead of a Wrath.

Dropping EE first turn is how you win games against Vial Goblins. You destroy AEther Vials, Lackeys, and other stupid things. Also, setting EEs at zero to kill tokens or at 3 to semi-wipe the board clean is awesome.


Either way, I didn't see Humility, Wrath, or Elspeth, and at one point in game 1 I FoF into Land, Force, Brainstorm, Land, EE and he splits the pile EE/Land and Force/Brainstorm/Land and he only has a Warchief and an Aether Vial at 3. I took the Brainstorm pile thinking I would draw into an answer, but when I brainstormed I saw Land/Land/Force. I realized a turn later when he played 3x 3 drops in the form of Matron/Matron/Matron that I should have gone for and played the EE @ 3 off the FoF.

This situation is very vague, because I tend to cast FoF in response to spells. But in this case, it depends on your hand. If you have a grip of answers and counters in your hand, taking EE would've been the right play mainly because Vial is the only reason why you should be losing that game.


I didn't know what was in his hand and digging three cards deeper with a fetch land seemed good at the time. I honestly think the optimal siding for this match-up should have been +3 BEB +2 Ajani -1 Decree -1 Tundra - 2 Krosan Grip -1 EE because each of those cards isn't that stellar in the match-up.

You complain about Rishadan Port and you boarded out a White/Blue source. You should board the way I suggested because it is honestly the right way to play this deck. Card advantage and having the precise answers is everything in this match up. I had experiences since 2005 to help my game against Vial Goblins, the cards you must always answer are AEther Vial and Goblin Lackey during the early stages of the game. Lackey is nuttier than it was before because apparently, throwing down insanity for like 1 mana on Turn 2 is kinda nutty. Having an artifact-pseudo Sol Ring that pumps dudes out and makes them uncounterable is even nuttier. Seriously, board the way I boarded; it's right. You have to accept that some cards are just terrible and way too slow for certain match-ups. Elspeth is one of them, and it blows against Goblins. I admit, it is amazing against Threshold and other heavier midgame Goyf decks like Aggro Loam, but that's it.


The hardest part about this match-up was port. If I had Dustbowl, I would have been able to keep the ground locked with my two factories.

Wastelands are better than Dust Bowl in this match up honestly. Wastelands hit Rishadan Port early allowing you to optimize earlier as well.

By the way, if you're complaining that much about Port screwing you over, why aren't you cutting the 4th Factory for a 4th Tundra? Color is more important than manlands. Your main win conditions are DoJ and Elspeth, your secondary ones are EDragon and Factories.

[bigbear102]

The lack of Wastelands was not a mistake. I wanted plenty of basics, and for Brainstorm to be optimal there has to be enough fetches. Add in the need for Mishra's to make Standstill good and you don't really have room for Wastes. I could probably put in 2, but that doesn't seem worth it.

Unless you are also playing Stifle and or Vindicate you really aren't going to disrupt much with just 4 Wastes, and it also sets you back a land. Crucible obviously changes this, but I didn't want to waste a slot on that too. If you are going to play the control game, then why would you want Wasteland? Sure it slows them down and possibly cuts them off of a color, but if that is your goal then just play Canadian Thresh/ Team America.

I used to play 4 Wastes in every Landstill build I tested, but cut it a while ago and haven't looked back since. It really doesn't fit the strategy well enough to add 4 colorless sources to a deck that wants to hit W and U on turn 1, UU on turn 2, and WW on turn 4. That gives you turn 3 to waste without actually messing up your plan too much, and at that point it's not as effective.

Upping the basic count also lessens your opponents ability to stop your development through waste lock and/or back to basics. Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

[Hanni]

Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

CounterTop > Burn

If you're going to consider MD lifegain, either run Cunning Wish (and Pulse of the Fields), or run CounterTop. Personally, I think Top > FoF. But that's just me.

[bigbear102]

The problem with countertop is that it takes up 7 slots. Sure it is card advantage, but I like the hard counters in this deck. Countertop works much better when you are protecting beaters than when you are trying to control the whole game.

[aldaryn]

I'd run 1 moat / 1 humility in an enlightened tutor-based deck (something I think needs revisiting), but to the person above who is insistent Moat is better against Goblins, I'm not so sure. They can still go Matron for sharpshooter, sac guys to my prospector to keep untapping sharpshooter, use the mana to play ringleader, sac more guys, ping you for like 12.... Things they can't do under Humility. There are just so many triggered and static abilities that still do so much under Moat (Dark Confidant, for example)..

[rockout]

Goblins runs Skirk Prospector? Since when? Please link me a top 8 decklist.

@BigBear: I'm going to have to take your advice on wasteland and test it. Thanks.

[Rehallek]

Goblins runs Skirk Prospector? Since when? Please link me a top 8 decklist.

Back in standard Onslaught Goblins? haha Where your Warchief doesn't get STPed right after? 2 for 1?

[bigbear102]

I'd run 1 moat / 1 humility in an enlightened tutor-based deck (something I think needs revisiting), but to the person above who is insistent Moat is better against Goblins, I'm not so sure. They can still go Matron for sharpshooter, sac guys to my prospector to keep untapping sharpshooter, use the mana to play ringleader, sac more guys, ping you for like 12.... Things they can't do under Humility. There are just so many triggered and static abilities that still do so much under Moat (Dark Confidant, for example)..

Seriously people, the deck still runs removal. It's not like a Swords to plowshares or a counterspell on any one of the cards you mentioned won't keep you safe behind the moat. Against a deck with upwards of 30 critters like goblins, Moat is the better card. That is the one matchup that I am positive that Moat is better, aside from canadian thresh and shit like that.

Dark Confidant does not win them the game either, they still have to find an answer to Moat before they can do that. This again leads to you getting several extra turns to do whatever you need to win the game.

There is a reason why I run 3 Wrath, 2 Explosives, and 4 Swords and a Humility. Moat deals with most of their creatures, and there are 10 other spells in the deck to deal with the few remaining relevant creatures. Not to mention 8 hard counters and the ability to play Standstill without removing their board. If they have a Confidant out without a top Standstill is even stronger.

[aldaryn]

I fail for unfamiliarity with the format. :( Bad example i guess, but my overall point remains (about triggered/static abilities).

[Resist_Temptation]

One question for Big Bear. Is there any reason you run 3 wraths with only 2 EE. I have been playing a build of landstill and thought the ability to reuse EE to be better than wrath of god. I just happen to be curious

Also, I dont think moat and humility can be compared. They will almost do the same in each case. Humility they will have 1/1 beat sticks, but in the same fashion, you can use your factories to do some killin'. I do not find goblins to be that hard of a matchup... Maybe the players around my area aren't very good or something but it is the fact that i counter vial or swords lackey and i have basically won.

[klaus]

LOOKING FOR LAST MINUTE INPUT:

Here's the list I'm going to play at a local tournament tomorrow:

--Goyf-Still--

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counter Balance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
1 Wrath of God
1 Runed Halo
2 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Serenity

The meta is going to consist of Goblins, FT, Roguestyle.dec, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill, Affinity, Ichorid, Thresh and possibly Dragon Stompy.

As always, I'm looking for last minute changes. I was tempted to replace Wrath and x with 2 Stoic Angels or even Bant Charms but I could resist :)

[Resist_Temptation]

Is the random trinket mage really necessary. It would be understandable if there were many things that you can search but i dont believe there is enough in the list to make it worthwhile. I also think you might need some more basics. and why so many one ofs. i can understand the artifacts and the enchants but the lone trinket mage, the wrath, the ponder, and it seems like just running 2 wrath would be better.

[ChiiMagic]

Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

I've been playing UWR Landstill for 3-4 years now, and if I have learned anything, its that the burn matchup is TERRIBLE. The clock's that landstill deck can generate are usually awful to race an opponent who just rips damage off the top of their library. You will never have as many counterspells as they have important burn spells. I really hate to have to play in a metagame where people think that burn deck is viable when any deck playing counterbalance is just an autoloss for them, but when I do have to fight against a field where people might be playing burn, I take the Blue Elemental Blasts out of my board and try to fight goblins a little less efficiently, and I substitute them for COP RED. It is my experience with TONS of testing against the burn deck, that they just can never beat a COP Red when you play it correctly. All you have to do is keep 7-8 mana available, depending on their hand size to never take damage. The downside is that you have to waste 3 sideboard slots on one specific matchup. So I know this solution has its ups and downs, but if you are have a serious problem with the Burn decks, you might consider COP Red out of the board.

[3duece]

LOOKING FOR LAST MINUTE INPUT:

Here's the list I'm going to play at a local tournament tomorrow:

--Goyf-Still--

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counter Balance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
1 Wrath of God
1 Runed Halo
2 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Serenity

The meta is going to consist of Goblins, FT, Roguestyle.dec, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill, Affinity, Ichorid, Thresh and possibly Dragon Stompy.

As always, I'm looking for last minute changes. I was tempted to replace Wrath and x with 2 Stoic Angels or even Bant Charms but I could resist :)

I know you're very experienced with landstill, but this build looks pretty damn random. I like the idea of green vorosh, but I say up the enlightened tutors to three or four, and up wraths to three. This gives you more control over the board as well as your own deck. With more tutors you can drop counterbalance and top to two each, add 1 humility and 1 moat, and drop the random jank. Also, counterspell is ultimately stronger than spell snare and your deck's mana can support it. Maybe something like:
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Counter Balance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Moat

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

[Resist_Temptation]

On the topic of burn. I had one cop red in my board just in case. I did have an enightened tutor in the main and also one in the side via 2 wishes. it works alright.

[Nydaeli]

If you have a serious problem with burn decks, you're probably better off playing Counterbalance in the board. You'd need 2-3 Tops in the main to support it, but it's far less narrow. (To the point where you'd be boarding it in for 75% of your matches, I'd suspect.)

[konsultant]

The lack of Wastelands was not a mistake. I wanted plenty of basics, and for Brainstorm to be optimal there has to be enough fetches. Add in the need for Mishra's to make Standstill good and you don't really have room for Wastes. I could probably put in 2, but that doesn't seem worth it.

Unless you are also playing Stifle and or Vindicate you really aren't going to disrupt much with just 4 Wastes, and it also sets you back a land. Crucible obviously changes this, but I didn't want to waste a slot on that too. If you are going to play the control game, then why would you want Wasteland? Sure it slows them down and possibly cuts them off of a color, but if that is your goal then just play Canadian Thresh/ Team America.

I used to play 4 Wastes in every Landstill build I tested, but cut it a while ago and haven't looked back since. It really doesn't fit the strategy well enough to add 4 colorless sources to a deck that wants to hit W and U on turn 1, UU on turn 2, and WW on turn 4. That gives you turn 3 to waste without actually messing up your plan too much, and at that point it's not as effective.

Upping the basic count also lessens your opponents ability to stop your development through waste lock and/or back to basics. Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

I don't think you can effectively win tournaments without either Wasteland or Dustbowl. Running Vindicate's may make it easier to get away without Watelands some of the time but not in every situation.

Primary reason you have to run Wasteland: You must be able to win the game under Standstill reliably based not just on what is in play at the time you cast Standstill but you need to expect to be able to not lose board advantage to your opponent while Standstill is in play. Meaning if you play against Dreadstill that runs Waste and Factory you are more or less cutting off your own draw engine because it will almost never be safe to play Standstill. In my experience this is not a good way to win games.

Secondary reason: Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins are both cards that must be dealt with at times and running Waste can make playing against decks that run them alot easier. Vindicate would work in this situation but burning removal spells on land isn't always an option.

If you want Life Gain run Ajani, i'd take him over Pulse any day in the MD or SB.

@BIGBEAR Looking at your list I noted a couple things, Only one source of Green Mana and you can't even get it with Dragon? I know there were only 2 Grips in the SB but EE requires 3 colors of Mana fairly often. You also seem to have a serious shortage of Disenchant effects, IMHO I would atleast recomend going to 3x EE in the MD and 3x Grip in the SB. Personally when I was running UWG I had 3x EE MD, 2x Grip MD and 2x Grip in the SB and I was quite happy with it.

[mossivo1986]

I don't think you can effectively win tournaments without either Wasteland or Dustbowl. Running Vindicate's may make it easier to get away without Watelands some of the time but not in every situation.

Primary reason you have to run Wasteland: You must be able to win the game under Standstill reliably based not just on what is in play at the time you cast Standstill but you need to expect to be able to not lose board advantage to your opponent while Standstill is in play. Meaning if you play against Dreadstill that runs Waste and Factory you are more or less cutting off your own draw engine because it will almost never be safe to play Standstill. In my experience this is not a good way to win games.

Secondary reason: Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins are both cards that must be dealt with at times and running Waste can make playing against decks that run them alot easier. Vindicate would work in this situation but burning removal spells on land isn't always an option.

If you want Life Gain run Ajani, i'd take him over Pulse any day in the MD or SB.

@BIGBEAR Looking at your list I noted a couple things, Only one source of Green Mana and you can't even get it with Dragon? I know there were only 2 Grips in the SB but EE requires 3 colors of Mana fairly often. You also seem to have a serious shortage of Disenchant effects, IMHO I would atleast recomend going to 3x EE in the MD and 3x Grip in the SB. Personally when I was running UWG I had 3x EE MD, 2x Grip MD and 2x Grip in the SB and I was quite happy with it.

ajani above pulse? Interesting, but is it because pulse contaminates your mana in the burn matchup or is the life gain just that much better? I havent laid an ajani in the burn matchup yet, so id like to know. Let me know!!!

[rockout]

The way I see Ajani being better than Pulse of the Fields is just the initial investment of 4 mana and never having to do anything but gain life until you lose or win. Also, Ajani has a magnet for burn spells. The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells. Either way, you force your opponent to waste burn on something other than your life total. Seems pretty win to me.

Also, once the opponent sees the Pulse of the Field, he'll just play around it by making you cast Pulse of the Field and burning himself/herself (woman play magic right?) so it doesn't return to your hand. Something to that effect.

Either way, I can see Konsultant's point. Hope that helps.

[Illissius]

The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells.

My impression was that the loyalty is a cost while the life is an effect, so if they burn in response the +1 counter will already be there, and you won't have gained the life yet but that's not what they care about. (They can, of course, burn you in response if your life is low enough, and because you can't activate planeswalkers at instant speed this scenario is more than just hypothetical.)

[rockout]

My impression was that the loyalty is a cost while the life is an effect, so if they burn in response the +1 counter will already be there, and you won't have gained the life yet but that's not what they care about. (They can, of course, burn you in response if your life is low enough, and because you can't activate planeswalkers at instant speed this scenario is more than just hypothetical.)

Also, a good point. Sorcery speed makes it not as good. Even if they burn in response to the counter, it's a burn spell not hitting you in the face. Like I said earlier the only burn spell that burn/goyf sligh runs that can take it down in one shot is fireblast. I'll glady trade Ajani for Fireblast + 2 mountains.

[Roman Candle]

Also, a good point. Sorcery speed makes it not as good. Even if they burn in response to the counter, it's a burn spell not hitting you in the face. Like I said earlier the only burn spell that burn/goyf sligh runs that can take it down in one shot is fireblast. I'll glady trade Ajani for Fireblast + 2 mountains.

But don't you have priority when you drop Ajani, so you can add a counter before the opponent can Fireblast it?

[ChiiMagic]

Adding a counter is the cost of the ability. It cannot be responded to. The cost is paid, adding a counter. Then the effect of gaining 2 life will go on the stack and they can respond to it, but not until after your Ajani is safely out of fireblast range.

[mossivo1986]

But that doesn't mean he/she cant price of progress and redirect the damage to your plainswalker, which would be awesome for you anyways! Im just being a wise ass :)

[rockout]

But that doesn't mean he/she cant price of progress and redirect the damage to your plainswalker, which would be awesome for you anyways! Im just being a wise ass :)

That would definitely be awesome.

Yeah, loyalty is a cost and I don't know how to play magic. :-)

[mossivo1986]

So anyways has anyone tested cunning wish versions against ITF?

[rockout]

I tested UWg Landstill with main deck Krosan Grip and was able to go 8-1 against ITF. The ITF Player's ability to play EE @ 4 made games kind of annoying but Decree won me the game almost every time in conjunction with a well timed Krosan Grip on their Deed/EE. If you can stop Intuition sheninigans, then the match stays within acceptable late game brokeness until you can win.

[DuKeLiO]

Cunning Landstill >> ITF (at least on direct confrontation)

With the Cunning-> Extirpate play you can stop the recursion Engine easily. Also Landstill is very able of play with the counterbalance+sensei combo on the table, until you can destroy it or win with a great decree.
My build is 4C, but it the same with UWb cunning builds, really don't matter the Pernicious Deed.

[konsultant]

The way I see Ajani being better than Pulse of the Fields is just the initial investment of 4 mana and never having to do anything but gain life until you lose or win. Also, Ajani has a magnet for burn spells. The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells. Either way, you force your opponent to waste burn on something other than your life total. Seems pretty win to me.

Also, once the opponent sees the Pulse of the Field, he'll just play around it by making you cast Pulse of the Field and burning himself/herself (woman play magic right?) so it doesn't return to your hand. Something to that effect.

Either way, I can see Konsultant's point. Hope that helps.

Nicely put. I have only lost one game ever against burn with Ajani in play and it was because he resolved Sulfuric Vortex and I went 7 turns with out being able to find the third color of Mana in my deck for EE, other than that Ajani is mvp against burn.

Regarding ITF i've found the only way they can beat you is to lock out your removal with Countertop and stick a Goyf early in the game. Once you hit 8 or 9 lands Decree is brutal for thier deck. Extirpate on Tarmogoyf can practically deny that deck of win conditions giving you a ridiculous amount of time to take over the game. They also don't really have any way to deal with Ajani, the Ajani win is probably the easiest way to go. As of yet I haven't lost a round against it and i've played deep6er twice without even knowing the name the deck let alone what it played. This should be a very favorable match for Landstill.

[mossivo1986]

Nicely put. I have only lost one game ever against burn with Ajani in play and it was because he resolved Sulfuric Vortex and I went 7 turns with out being able to find the third color of Mana in my deck for EE, other than that Ajani is mvp against burn.

Regarding ITF i've found the only way they can beat you is to lock out your removal with Countertop and stick a Goyf early in the game. Once you hit 8 or 9 lands Decree is brutal for thier deck. Extirpate on Tarmogoyf can practically deny that deck of win conditions giving you a ridiculous amount of time to take over the game. They also don't really have any way to deal with Ajani, the Ajani win is probably the easiest way to go. As of yet I haven't lost a round against it and i've played deep6er twice without even knowing the name the deck let alone what it played. This should be a very favorable match for Landstill.


The ITF versions ive seen dont run countertop.

Does it not annoy some of you that every single archtype is playing countertop? I mean for some matchups drawing counterbalance second has to mean gg right? I mean theres no real way to get through that for a deck that selectively plays those cards.

[mossivo1986]

I'm wondering if someone can repost the lists for

uwg landstill with maindeck grips instead of wish
and uwb with maindeck vindicates instead of wish
and a countertop model.

I need to do some testing with these models and I can't seem to find them on here.

[TeKo]

http://www.deckcheck.net/visual.php?id=21667
For a Grip list:
- 2 Usea - Scrubland
-2 Vindicate
+ 1-2 Tropical +Savannah
+2Grip

[rsaunder]

Just went 3-2-1 today with a UW humility/wrath build with no countertop. I beat Quinn, Doran Rock, and Elves Combo, losing to Moon Thresh (!) and Team America. I drew with slivers, of all things.

I honestly never wanted countertop and given the weird curve the deck plays with so many 4ccs and EE, I was never afraid of counterbalance. I think running counterbalance effectively requires that you also be vulnerable to opposing counterbalance.

[rockout]

Just went 3-2-1 today with a UW humility/wrath build with no countertop. I beat Quinn, Doran Rock, and Elves Combo, losing to Moon Thresh (!) and Team America. I drew with slivers, of all things.

I honestly never wanted countertop and given the weird curve the deck plays with so many 4ccs and EE, I was never afraid of counterbalance. I think running counterbalance effectively requires that you also be vulnerable to opposing counterbalance.

I agree completely. The main reason I don't run it in my build. However, Sensei's Top is amazing even without CB. If I had room, then I'd definitely be running at least a pair of tops.

[mossivo1986]

I was pretty unimpressed with cheon's play today via dreadstill, and honestly I can tell you he should have lost game 2 in the finals. Bottom line he didn't know his deck and he got hella force's early game. That was absolutely rediculous. Also the ta guy forgot his role in that game and could have scooped a victory, but w/e

anyways I still need testing results for that matchup so if anyone has any experiance please private messege me with 3c_wish_still vs ugr dreadstill and 3c_wish_still vs Team America. Also The fear matchup would be greatly appreciated!

Also has anyone noticed that judge promo meddling mages have dropped to 15-20 dollars? they were 30 until the last rotation. Im just saying it might be worth it to pick up these snazzy little foily love children..

I think the hair is actually red on them, which makes them red headed step children "because their in your board" and their always being a pain in someones ass.

well that said, goodnight.

[rockout]

I have some questions about side board strategy versus Aggro Loam, Survival, and Goblins. These are, for whatever reason, my least favorite match-ups. This is the deck list and sideboard I'm currently running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

Aggro Loam: I usually go -2 Krosan Grip -2 Decree -2 Wrath +3 BEB +3 Relic because Wrath is just overcosted in the matchup when you are mainly getting a 1 for 1 kill. Do I really need Runed Halo when I have access to 7 one mana kill effects on some of their biggest creatures: (swords + relic for vore/goyf and beb + stp versus crusher) and also they can Wish for Reverent Silence to kill Humility and Runed Halo? I definitely fear choke so I'm thinking that dropping the Grips are a bad call, but I'd like some input.

Survival: I usually go -1 Tundra, -1 Decree -1 Eternal Dragon +3 Relic. Do I just board in Relic and the extra Krosan Grip? I like that Grip does give me an extra out to the brokenness that is Survival of the Fittest and Pithing Needle. I brought in Ajani against Survival at the Mana Leak and it just allowed me to win faster with Elspeth on the board.

Goblins: I usually go -2 Krosan Grip -1 Standstill +3 BEB. I think I need Runed Halo against Templar goblins because of the 4-of Siege Gang Commanders. I was told a while back that I do board in Runed Halo, but what do I take out? I like Ajani in this matchup because it allows me to gain life and play offense and defense with my factories at the same time. To board in Ajani, what do I board out? Secret tech I'm missing? I've tested goblins a bunch and still can't seem to get the sideboard strategy correct.

Any help and comments would be greatly appreciated.

[ChiiMagic]

Against any Loam deck you need to be boarding in your Meddling Mages. Your first Meddling Mage should come down naming Life from the Loam and it will slow their deck down to a crawl where you can protect him. If you draw anymore, I usually name Burning Wish or Seismic Assault, because either of those is their way of removing the Mage on Loam. Also, your graveyard hate should be coming in as well.

I don't really have much experience against Survival, but from the little i have played, graveyard hosers are very bad for them. I might even bring the Meddling Mages in for this game also, and just stick it on survival.

For the Goblins matchup, if they are on the play, I board out all of my standstills as they are basically dead cards. they have so many ways to ruin your standstills and make them FOW fodder. Blue elemental Blast has been very effective for me. It is just another way to not let a Goblin Lackey hit you on turn 2.

[klaus]

Imo, your average mana cost is too high to stand a chance G1s against both Loam (-> LD) and Goblins (even more LD).

To lower your curve and make some of those MUs better I'd suggest squeezing in 3 Spell Snares (Loam, Confidant, Goyf, Survival...)
And moving those 2 Grips to the SB (even though I assume you're probably madly in love with them).
All of the targets (Vial, Survival, Chalice, Assault) get hit by EE, already.
And -1 Counterspell.

Furthermore, those E. Dragons make the deck rather clunky. Until turn 5 they're fetchlands that cost 2 mana.
Against 90% of the tier 1 decks (barring heavy control) you want a regular land here.
2x Decree and 2x Elspeth also keep the average cost high most LS engineeres have agreed upon 2x Elsp. 1x Decree.
Don't forget you want to be able to beat Dreadstill and Team America, too, both of which put even more strain on you mana base while Dazing all your CMC4 spells.


Another SB tech to help getting those MUs better would be 2 Needles:
% Survival
% Wasteland
% Vial
% Assault

Just my 2 pence
---

As a reference, here's a UWb list with a somewhat lower mana base (I really like that list)

4 Brainstorm (CMC1)
3 Counterspell (CMC2)
4 Force of Will (>>CMC1<<)
3 Spell Snare (CMC1)
4 Swords to Plowshares (CMC1)

1 Elspeth (CMC4)
2 Decree of Justice (CMC4)
3 Vindicate (CMC3)
2 Wrath of God (CMC4)

2 Humility (CMC4)
4 Standstill (CMC2)
1 Crucible of Worlds (CMC3)
3 Engineered Explosives (>>CMC3<<)
(CMC 78/36=2.11, which should definitely be lower than yours)

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
(--24--)

[FlavaSava]

I played a smiliar list like Klaus' i only ran 1 Vindicate ,2 ponder ,1 elspeth, 1 swamp and 1 Polluted instead of 1 counterspell and 2 wrath and 1 mishra, Flooded and 1 tundra

I ended up 12th because i lost against storm in round 5 (2nd table) and drawed(->is it right?) against Saproling Boost, because he drew in his last extra turn his only star storm and was able to kill my 3 mishras and 3 soldiers token. next sunday i will play it again.

[rsaunder]

I just had some interesting playtest matches against goblins. I was running this list:

4 Goyf
4 STP
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Counterbalance
2 Vedalkin Shackles
1 LftL
3 EE
4 Counterspell
4 FOW

4 Mishra's
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Trop
1 Island
2 Nantuko Monestary
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Out of the last 20 games played (all pre-board, thus no SB posted) I only lost 6, largely to mana denial and not having an answer to first turn lackey. Vials weren't too much of a problem with so many EE, and the recursion was nice though it honestly seemed win-more sometimes.

Quite frankly, in an aggro/aggro-control heavy metagame, I think shackles has been dismissed too quickly. Every time a shackles resolved, I won the game. Being able to make 2-for-0 trades against goblins is just deadly, especially when you're already going 3-for-1 sometimes with goyf. I understand that shackles has been "too slow," but I think that it's just getting looked at like a mid-game stall card to get into late game instead of a late game "now I really win" condition.

I'm excedingly tempted to make a mono-U control deck with shackles and B2B and give it a try, but that's another thread.

EDIT: I really missed wastes in the goblins matchups. I really wanted to be able to destroy ports, but I think the overall manabase stability was worth it.

[FredMaster]

Gosh that list is so not Landstill anymore. Standstills look incredibly bad in there with CB, Top, Shackles and Goyfs.
What were you thinking? This is like bad Uwg Thresh and Uwg Landstill at the same time.

[Jak]

Gosh that list is so not Landstill anymore. Standstills look incredibly bad in there with CB, Top, Shackles and Goyfs.
What were you thinking? This is like bad Uwg Thresh and Uwg Landstill at the same time.

How do those cards make Standstill bad? Personally, I've been trying the same thing since you are giving a strong control deck more aggressive tools and a mid-range deck a late game.

[rsaunder]

Just for the record, the inspiration to try that build (other than going to time 3 times last tournament and wanting a clock) was Bardo's list from the other page:


Here's my Uwg/b list from testing today:

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
4 Planar Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan GripAnd I'm pretty sure that THAT, at least, is still landstill. I just took the next step and cut FoF.

I admit that standstill loses some potency without wasteland, and I'm planning on cutting one in the near future, but the deck is hardly "a bad hybrid of landstill and thresh." Goyf is the best removal in the format, next to STP and the deck plays both while gaining a fairly fast clock and counter-top.

EDIT: Also, Alix Hatfield split the Beta Duals tourney with this:


4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 fact or fiction
3 Sensei's tops
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
1 vindicate
4 tarmogoyf
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland

s.b.
4 blue elemental blast
4 engineered plague
4 counterbalance
2 krosan grip
1 vindicate

[mossivo1986]

Just for the record, the inspiration to try that build (other than going to time 3 times last tournament and wanting a clock) was Bardo's list from the other page:


Going to round 3 times in a tournament is your own fault. I am so tired of this being an excuse from people.

your doing this wrong:

1. Not thinking of your strategy on your opponents turn while he's making his decisions. Which is causing you to take additional not necessary time on your turn to think a plan out.

2. Talking too much to the people around you or your opponent. This often times will make you lose focus and misread certain things about the game, causing you once again to loose time as well as focus.

3. Just playing too slowly. Landstill is really not incredibly difficult to play once you get the hang of it.



And I'm pretty sure that THAT, at least, is still landstill. I just took the next step and cut FoF.

I kind of agree with that versions running counter-top-goyf arn't really landstill anymore. They don't play the same at all, and they lose for entirely different reasons.

I really do not like counterbalance in landstill because there is no solid 3 drop slot besides, wish, deed, in this archtype. Shackles is an excuse for a good card against most decks, and ensures your models demize with a rezolved choke.




I admit that standstill loses some potency without wasteland, and I'm planning on cutting one in the near future, but the deck is hardly "a bad hybrid of landstill and thresh." Goyf is the best removal in the format, next to STP and the deck plays both while gaining a fairly fast clock and counter-top.:

Standstill loses some potency without wasteland?? Have you missed the tech switch? Traditional landstill variants no longer run wasteland. They switched to dustbowl and tolaria west, as it is much stronger then wasteland without crucible and fetching dustbowl in the mirror under an opponents standstill or in this case counterbalance is going to be like gift wrapping the ass kicking your about to recieve.

fyi: you have it reversed. goyf is not or even close to next to the best removal in the format.

Goyf is the target of all removal in this format.

also fyi: Countertop does not "speed games up" it slows them down because it makes your opponent take more time to think up ways to get around your counterbalance.



EDIT: Also, Alix Hatfield split the Beta Duals tourney with this:

That list is disgusting. Shame on him for piloting it and you for presenting it.