[Discussion] Porting Casual Players into Competitive Communities

[Zach Tartell]

Okay, my room mate for the next eight months (seven, actually, since we start in June) is a pretty solid casual player. He's used to 3-8 player chaos games, and actually used gatherer (until I introduced him to magiccards.info) to find ridiculous things like Hissing Miasma and Righteous Cause to just go in sane. Like, he understands combat phase magic like a pro (since, in Matt's mind, you can't win if you don't swing in with your Divine Transformation'd Serra Angel).

Anyway, he's going to do my Calculus homework if I can teach him to play competitive Legacy magic. (No anus faces making jokes about legacy not being a competitive format. If it isn't then what the hell are you doing here?)

Anyway, the closest thing that I could think of resembling his deck (Mostly Mono :w: for all the great 2 cost first strike knights) was Angel Stompy. (And don't tell me that Angel Stompy is a terrible deck. It's good enough to start with.) This is the first list that I worked up for him:

17 Plains
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Exalted Angel
4 Knight of the Medowgrain (the 2/2 First Strike Lifelink one from Future Sight maybe)
4 Samuari of the Pale Curtain
4 Razor Golem
3 Serra Avenger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spots I never decided on

Sideboard:
3 Abolish
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt

I figured it was a pretty standard Angel Stompy list. I've never played it, but it seemed to fit Matt's play style (drop fat and win) while being at least second tier. For instance, it didn't have goyf. That was probably my only objection. But the rare turn 2 Angel (morph) turn 3 flip is a pretty good game plan against a turn 2 2/3 Tarmogoyf.

Against control 4 Cataclysm seems like a solid plan. That and equipment. The only thing that I might want to change is perhaps add some number of needles, to dodge deed or any other shenanigans.

Combo seemed like a "Go grab a pizza" type match until I decided I'd board out all the shitty cards I have against them (4 Swords 4 Cataclysm) and just bring in some general hate. I'm not sure he'll understand when to Chant, but I'm sure that, since Bryant is moving to Oswego (horay!), we'll have plenty of time to test.

Agro seems like I wouldn't even board anything. On account of Angel Stompy is supposed to drop a train on other Agro. (two g's?)

Then I decided that, if I couldn't beat them, I'd join them:

6 Plains Fetches
4 Savannah
7 Plains
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Exalted Angel
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Medowgrain
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Razor Golem
2 Serra Avenger
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cataclysm
3 Engineered Explosives (These were the empty spots, then I cut one each of my :w::w: beaters to add 4 goyf, going to 61)

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void

I was thinking about adding some Leyline of the Lifeforce to give MUC, Counter/Top, and Landstill fits. Then I realized that he probably won't be into mulliganing. Grip is better than Abolish, I think, on account of Split Second.

Anyone else have any ideas? Cards aren't much of an issue, since I've got just about everything that matters. I want to keep him away from cards that include a lot of thinking, like Sensei's Top, Force of Will, Brainstorm (yeah - it's tough until you get the hang of dodging Duress and Fetching and instant speed), et al. And combo's out, since he doesn't quite understand Storm, either.

[MattH]

1. Yes, aggro has two Gs, coming as it does from the root 'aggressive'.
2. As a mathematics educator, I'll say that you really ought to do your own calculus homework, unless you're good enough at it that he's merely saving you time.
3. Best of luck though! This sounds like a good project. As a casual player, he might also like Dragon Stompy. Happily, if you've already got Angel Stompy up and running, almost all the valuable DS cards come straight out of AS: equipment, Moxen, Ancient Tombs.
4. Are there any non-storm combos he could wrap his head around? Breakfast and Swan rely on some pretty arcane tricks, but something like the new Painter-Grindstone combo is really straightforward, and may appeal to his casual love of finding uses for niche cards.
5. Or you could just train him on Ichorid. It takes about an hour to learn the most important interactions, and the deck pretty much plays itself, at least pre-SB. And what casual player doesn't love hordes of zombie tokens, I ask!

[Illissius]

Sounds like me 8 years ago. Give him that Garanragangnarnagnanel deck. Or Dragon Stompy. Decks where you can swing with giant monsters not named Tarmogoyf right now are basically the Stompy decks, Aggro Loam, and various Dreadnought decks.

[Hummingbird TG]

AND decks which play Tombstalker, much?

[Zach Tartell]

AND decks which play Tombstalker, much?

No. Decks that play Tombstalker are decks that fill their graveyards. That means you're playing spells, not permanents. That's not an easy strategy for people who started playing six or so months ago/don't understand the stack/have no idea what 75% (a generous guess) of Legacy usable cards are.

I'm looking for the "Land, creature, pass the turn" sort of decks. Not "Ritual into Thoughtseize, Hymn to Torauch" or "Use Nomads En-Kor to target my Cephalid Illusionist" or even "Add a charge counter to my Aether Vial" sort of decks.

[FoolofaTook]

Throw Armageddon into the first list and let him have fun.

And yes, please port a lot of casual players into Legacy. That's how you grow the field as they slowly add cards to become competitive with the deck(s) of their choice. I'm trying to get my little sister (who is older than most of you) to pick up her elves again and start playing now and then.

[Tacosnape]

I will say that in all my experience of teaching new players to play magic, the card on that list that none of them play correctly is Chrome Mox. I'm not really sure you can avoid using it in a deck similar to that, but I guarantee you he'll always either imprint the wrong thing or play it too early on hands where he needs more information to know what the correct thing to imprint is.

Hell, I see experienced players with DS keeping hands like Tomb, City, Mountain, Mox, Chalice, Dragon, Blood Moon who imprint on the first turn on the play without knowing what they're playing against, rather than do the smart thing and just lead with Tomb/Chalice, which lets you see an opponent's land drop and gives you one more card to see before you decide whether you need the Dragon or the Moon worse (Or both, if you draw something else red). Chrome Mox is a scary card for new players.

[AngryTroll]

Armadillo Cloak is amazing in WG Angel Stompy. Savage combo with Angel, Knights of Meadowgrain, and Cataclysm. Gives Goyf Trample. Plus, it's pretty awesome.

Or Armageddon, as suggested above.

[technogeek5000]

A friend of mine has a casual archbound deck so im gonna try and get him into legacy by helping him turn it into a competitive affinity list (Im making sure not to over load him so I change it in steps, which is important). What ive found is that if you want to get casual players to go competitive is you have to do a little bit of bragging and some planning. I sometimes tell my group of friends about how I draft and win (not to say that I dont lose. I leave that part out... for a good cause:tongue:) and they become interested. If you show the alure of the game at higher levels they will be inclined to start playing at tournaments and if you guide them and give sound advice then they can easily become an active member of the competitive magic community. Oh, and it also helps that I mention my local store is located within 300 yards of hooters.

[mercenarybdu]

Savanah Lions should do the trick for those plans indeed.

[Happy Gilmore]

If your going to give a casual player a deck to play in legacy dont screw around...let them play MIX.

[Isamaru]

También espero que le enseñes a él como hablar el español.

Is he going to be comfortable having so many "4x" cards? First of all, you have to keep track of that many cards when you sleeve your deck, and secondly, they take room in the deck away from all your awesome cards like the Second Thoughts and Divine Intervention you found in your neighbor's garage sale box!

[Watcher487]

Wait, wait, wait one second. You didn't even think of Dark Three Deuce?!?!?! Come on Zack, it's all about the 'I'll just beat down for a metric !@#$ton on turn 3 and then burn that smirk right off your face.' And with all of the neat stuff coming out in the next few sets are going to make the deck so much better anyway.

[raharu]

También espero que le enseñes a él como hablar el español.

Is he going to be comfortable having so many "4x" cards? First of all, you have to keep track of that many cards when you sleeve your deck, and secondly, they take room in the deck away from all your awesome cards like the Second Thoughts and Divine Intervention you found in your neighbor's garage sale box!
Not productive...

If you're trying to find a competitive deck to start him on, something like Angel Stompy is a good place to commence. There's enough cards that have complex choices attached (SB Chalice, Cataclysm, 'Jitte to a lesser extent), but nothing overwhelming. In all honesty though, I would consider going from this to 'GeddonStax, because most of competitive magic is resource management and Stax is pretty much the epitome of board management. That or some sort of combo after he learns how to board against it/ knows roughly how it ticks, perchance, after he gets more in-depth understanding of the game/ meta, he could move to Enchntress or a control variant.

also, @ watcher487: exactly what deck are you referencing? I'm intriuged...

[BreathWeapon]

Aether Vial aside, either Affinity or Goblins is the best place to start, IMO, because both of those decks are fun to play, and their power levels are very forgiving of small/big player errors. Affinity is like dirt cheap to, it's pretty hard to go wrong there.

[Zach Tartell]

Aether Vial aside, either Affinity or Goblins is the best place to start, IMO, because both of those decks are fun to play, and their power levels are very forgiving of small/big player errors. Affinity is like dirt cheap to, it's pretty hard to go wrong there.

The savagery of Affinity comes from knowing which half of your board to sacrifice to Ravager or Atog. I really want to avoid stuff where the player could fuck himself over so royally. And goblins is a lot harder than people give it credit for being. Like, knowing whether to lead Lackey or Vial, what to leave Vial at, what to tutor for...

I really just want to avoid any sort of decision that could be construed as difficult. The Chrome Mox argument is enough to make me think that Angel Stompy is a bad choice, even.

[diffy]

I'd say that something like aggro-Elves wouldn't be too bad off a choice: it is somewhat competitive (good NQG matchup) and not too hard to play especially since there's not a lot of Wrath of God in the format.

Something along these lines could be a starting point:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (16)
4 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
3 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/be/en/279.html)
2 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)
1 Gaea's Cradle (http://magiccards.info/us/en/321.html)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/137.html)

// Acceleration (6)
4 AEther Vial (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/91.html)
2 Elvish Spirit Guide (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/69.html)

// Mana Elves (11)
1 Elves of Deep Shadow (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/39.html)
4 Llanowar Elves (http://magiccards.info/be/en/119.html)
3 Fyndhorn Elves (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/132.html)
3 Priest of Titania (http://magiccards.info/us/en/270.html)

// Pumpers (13)
3 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/117.html)
4 Elvish Champion (http://magiccards.info/in/en/186.html)
4 Imperious Perfect (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/220.html)
2 Mirror Entity (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/31.html)

// Beaters (8)
4 Skyshroud Elite (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/123.html)
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/245.html)

// Card Advantage Dudes (6)
2 Wren's Run Packmaster (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/244.html)
4 Sylvan Messenger (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/87.html)


I don't think that learning how to properly use AEther Vial is too hard or will cost people too much time/effort... if you want to save this exercise as an add-on to the deck for later, that's okay though - in that case, I'd just replace the Vials with more Mana Elves and Elvish Spirit Guides, make sure to propose to play the Vials some day though.

Also, what I've found tremendously useful to introduce novice players to Legacy is making them read. A lot. Every article that's out there and that has any connection to Legacy is good enough - even if the material is old. Some (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12726.html) articles are very well written and give some deeper understanding of the game (deckbuilding, how decks have to adopt different roles in different matchups etc.), some give some insight on the metagame (tournament reports), some are just general theory - but all help people to advance... hell, even reading the LMF-threads should advance people.

[etrigan]

I really just want to avoid any sort of decision that could be construed as difficult.

You're going to have a hard time finding anything remotely competitive that fits this criteria.

Seriously, Angel Stompy is fine. The opportunities to make a bad play with Chrome Mox or Cataclsym are small enough that it really shouldn't matter, and usually that consequences aren't that bad. Give him a few pointers on the likely best times to play Chant, and he'll be fine.

[Zach Tartell]

OK, so You wanna cheap and easy deck, true? What is the budget?

EDIT: Burn?

I thought I'd made it pretty clear in the opener that budget wasn't really a concern, since I don't mind expanding my collection whenever I get the chance. I'm looking for a deck with the following characteristics:

Un-Screw-Up-Able: I want a deck that is so difficult to misplay that it's not worth mentioning. Like, "Land, Creature, go" sort of uncomplicated.
No Un-Easy-To-Explain Interactions: I don't want my casual player to have to worry about returning Squee during his upkeep after Survivaling him away for something cool. No "So, now I stifle Phyrexian Dreadnought's CIP ability?" And absolutely no "In response to Infernal Tutor I sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond." I want 0 confusing shit.
Not be too time-consuming. I don't want to sit him down with Counter/Top thresh and have him look like a dolt every time he reads Counterbalance, then activated Sensei's Divining Top, then sets the cards aside, then looks at the spell, then asks his opponent what the "converted mana cost" is.... Easy. Turn 'em sideways! Play another creature!
A viable list. Like, after he scrubs out game one against whatever (or even round 2 as well) I want him to have a chance against the 11 year old who is playing a 90 card, unsleeved, Kitkin deck. Or, y'know, just some other real deck that scrubbed out too.


Thusly I don't want to worry about Dragon Stompy (yet - the multiple "RFG a/this card for mana" cards can get confusing, and I found out yesterday that even competitive players using the deck for the first time can lose savagely to their own manabase), anything with Force of Will, multiple triggers (Smokestack and his stax friends)... something simple. But not necessarily budget.

[TeenieBopper]

Un-Screw-Up-Able: I want a deck that is so difficult to misplay that it's not worth mentioning. Like, "Land, Creature, go" sort of uncomplicated.


Belcher. Seriously.

Step One- Open hand. Does it have a win condition or Burning Wish? If yes, go to step two. If no, mulligan.

Step Two- Can you generate six or seven mana (depending on Wish>Warrens or Belcher>Activate). If yes, keep. If no, mulligan.

[Illissius]

Goyf Sligh? I mean you're basically saying "gimme a straight aggro deck", and that's about the only one left. Maybe Eva Green.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I thought I'd made it pretty clear in the opener that budget wasn't really a concern, since I don't mind expanding my collection whenever I get the chance. I'm looking for a deck with the following characteristics:

Un-Screw-Up-Able: I want a deck that is so difficult to misplay that it's not worth mentioning. Like, "Land, Creature, go" sort of uncomplicated.
No Un-Easy-To-Explain Interactions: I don't want my casual player to have to worry about returning Squee during his upkeep after Survivaling him away for something cool. No "So, now I stifle Phyrexian Dreadnought's CIP ability?" And absolutely no "In response to Infernal Tutor I sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond." I want 0 confusing shit.
Not be too time-consuming. I don't want to sit him down with Counter/Top thresh and have him look like a dolt every time he reads Counterbalance, then activated Sensei's Divining Top, then sets the cards aside, then looks at the spell, then asks his opponent what the "converted mana cost" is.... Easy. Turn 'em sideways! Play another creature!
A viable list. Like, after he scrubs out game one against whatever (or even round 2 as well) I want him to have a chance against the 11 year old who is playing a 90 card, unsleeved, Kitkin deck. Or, y'know, just some other real deck that scrubbed out too.


Thusly I don't want to worry about Dragon Stompy (yet - the multiple "RFG a/this card for mana" cards can get confusing, and I found out yesterday that even competitive players using the deck for the first time can lose savagely to their own manabase), anything with Force of Will, multiple triggers (Smokestack and his stax friends)... something simple. But not necessarily budget.


Lands, maybe? Takes about five seconds to explain the deck's concept, it avoids most potentially problematic interactions, and so on. It's not too hard to auto-pilot, but it's also flexible enough that as your skill develops, so can your playstyle.

[atv]

I suppose this doesn't really answer your question, but I got a couple of my friends (who were all about casual, chaos magic until then) into competitive magic by first introducing drafting (and other limited formats) and FNM to them. From there on, they moved on to constructed formats like Standard and Extended on their own, without any prodding from me.

I guess this won't help too much if your friend is already committed into getting into more competitive play, but in my experience, drafting is the best way to get people to make that step from the kitchen table into competitive magic.

[Lifeless]

I have had great luck using various Sui Black/Red Death/Deadguy type decks to get people interested in playing in a more competitive setting. What to play off ritual first turn is the most complicated play the deck can make, with the possible exception of what needs to get Sinkholed in some matches. Getting someone up to speed on ritual plays only takes a few minutes. Initially, they feel a lot less complicated to someone who may have no idea when they are ahead/behind. They also run no mass removal, so the odds of putting yourself way behind by accident are eliminated. No deck is going to magically keep someone from under/over committing, and that's about the only way you can screw these decks up.

[MattH]

Seriously? If he can't figure out "Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn" then maybe he's not ready for primetime.

[Isamaru]

People said my post was unhelpful.

First of all, I thought the thread and discussion were over. The choice is obviously Angel Stompy. When I started the game, I started with White Weenie and everything made perfect sense except "the stack" and any "protection" and "counter the spell".

Second of all, the Spanish was for lonelybaritone.

[raharu]

People said my post was unhelpful.

First of all, I thought the thread and discussion were over. The choice is obviously Angel Stompy. When I started the game, I started with White Weenie and everything made perfect sense except "the stack" and any "protection" and "counter the spell".

Second of all, the Spanish was for lonelybaritone.
I didn't intend to be a douche.

True, the only thing less complicated then WW stompy is GGG stompy (i.e. Plated Slagwurm.dec).

[bigbear102]

Lands, maybe? Takes about five seconds to explain the deck's concept, it avoids most potentially problematic interactions, and so on. It's not too hard to auto-pilot, but it's also flexible enough that as your skill develops, so can your playstyle.

Lands is not hard for someone who understands it, but it is an extremely complicated deck for a beginner. Knowing what lands to go for against different decks is pretty hard. Glacial Chasm alone makes the deck ridiculously difficult for beginners. There is also the problem of knowing what lands to tap/destroy. I have seen plenty of decks lose because they repeatedly Port the wrong land.


My vote is Burn/Goyf Sligh. Just make sure he knows about Countertop/Chalice and doesn't recklessly play spells that will obviously get countered.

[Lifeless]

Seriously? If he can't figure out "Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn" then maybe he's not ready for primetime.

My point exactly. Anyone can figure this out, but if he's worried about the complexity of something like Aether Vial I'm not sure what else to say.

[Phantom]

Un-Screw-Up-Able: I want a deck that is so difficult to misplay that it's not worth mentioning. Like, "Land, Creature, go" sort of uncomplicated.
No Un-Easy-To-Explain Interactions: I don't want my casual player to have to worry about returning Squee during his upkeep after Survivaling him away for something cool. No "So, now I stifle Phyrexian Dreadnought's CIP ability?" And absolutely no "In response to Infernal Tutor I sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond." I want 0 confusing shit.
Not be too time-consuming. I don't want to sit him down with Counter/Top thresh and have him look like a dolt every time he reads Counterbalance, then activated Sensei's Divining Top, then sets the cards aside, then looks at the spell, then asks his opponent what the "converted mana cost" is.... Easy. Turn 'em sideways! Play another creature!
A viable list. Like, after he scrubs out game one against whatever (or even round 2 as well) I want him to have a chance against the 11 year old who is playing a 90 card, unsleeved, Kitkin deck. Or, y'know, just some other real deck that scrubbed out too.




Gargangel Stompy seems to fit the bill better than anything. It's simple; it's customizable; it's fun; it's competitive. Plus, it seems similar to the deck you were considering except much more brutal. Dropping one of 4 Moats and attacking with flyers is savage and simple. If you want to avoid some of the more complicated interactions, drop City of Traitors for more plains (or whatever land you see fit), move Chalice to the board, and feel free to swap out any of the more complicated creatures for straight beaters such as Serra Avenger and the like. Hell, the only card I would worry about a novice playing (except for the aforementioned Mox) is Oblivion Ring which can be easily swapped for Swords to Plow or Arrest or whatever.

[Metaknight]

X-land stompy, pretty much the easiest thing on the planet to pilot (unless thats god awful for your meta).

[matelml]

What about some 4 color Zoo list with Goyf, Bob, Bolts, Berserks, Kird apes, StP's, maybe Negators?

Like:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Kird Ape
4 Watchwolf/Keldon Marauders
2 Grunt
3 Negator
4 Mogg Fanatic/Skyshroud Elite
4 Rancor
4 Bolt
4 StP
4 Berserk
4 Foothills
4 Mire
3 Heath
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland

[Fons]

My little brothers first deck was WW and he was able to play and learn it.


I second the White Stompy

[LGD]

My point exactly. Anyone can figure this out, but if he's worried about the complexity of something like Aether Vial I'm not sure what else to say.

I've got to agree. Besides, you often learn the most by messing up, and decks that offer you the most potential to screw yourself up usually also offer the most potential reward for good tight play. Since he understands the basic rules I don't think you're doing him a service by teaching him what he already knows- obviously mana curves and such need to be explained but unless he's the sort of person that isn't ever going to be a threat in competitive magic I think he'll be able to grasp that at the same time as you introduce other concepts, especially since that one takes some time to sink in. You don't want to throw him into the deep end with something like Solidarity obviously, but you've got to give him *some* room for growth and potential to outplay his opponents beyond just evaluating opening hands to decide if they need to be mulliganed.

Since we're all suggesting semi-viable white aggro decks I think perhaps something like Death and Taxes might be better- it offers a fairly straightforward game plan but offers some level of potential trickery and opportunity to grow as a player. But I'd maybe just go with Goblins since it's a fairly strong deck that doesn't really have much in the way of non-intuitive interactivity and tends to have mistakes more of the "oh it might have been much better had I tutored for that instead, I'll make a note of it" variety than the "immediately game ending" type but still really rewards good play. Plus it's fun, thematic and occasionally busted as hell. If he's as inexperienced as you're implying he'll still mess up a lot at first (it's why you're teaching him) but he'll get better fast and Goblins will likely offer him greater space to improve than many of the alternatives being suggested.

Also, I'm seconding the notion that limited is the best way to introduce and build general purpose competitive Magic skills, instincts, and habits. Once you have the fundamentals of a good limited player down it usually isn't that hard to pick up a given constructed deck and figure out how to run the thing reasonably well with some goldfishing and a little instruction.

[technogeek5000]

White stompy is a fine deck to start with. I think that you should still put aether vial into his deck, but dont put it in at first because you dont want to overload the player at the beginning. After he's got a feel for the basics of the deck put in aether vial and give him a few pointer's on how to use it.

[raharu]

In all honesty, I think that if he's going to do your calc homework, you should invest a little faith in his inteligence and give him a deck that offers room to develop into.

[C.P.]

In all honesty, I think that if he's going to do your calc homework, you should invest a little faith in his inteligence and give him a deck that offers room to develop into.

Like, Touché?


I second Goyf stompy.

[Jaynel]

I'd agree with the analysis on Goblins. It can be played straightforwardly enough to begin with, but it also offers and encourages growth in a player.

Goyf Sligh, though, seems like an obvious choice for a beginner (and isn't that expensive sans Tarmogoyfs).

[crazyroundman]

Seriously? If he can't figure out "Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn" then maybe he's not ready for primetime.

I think he meant that that sort of deck was out. I can understand that. Like, knowing what to thoughtseize is tough, even for real players. And winning through finesse (like, knowing what to swords when and how to use Vindicate and when to burn your 'yard for a Tombstalker) is a lot harder than just dropping guys (like, "TARMOGOYF, TURN HIM SIDEWAYS, MAGIC IS SO EASY DUDE!).

Big difference, folks. Like, anyone can ritual out a Hippy. But can anyone know how to.... do something slightly more complicated? My knowledge of Deadguy and Rock decks is minimal.

[Nihil Credo]

Like, knowing what to thoughtseize is tough, even for real players.

I would argue that losing due to not disrupting your opponent isn't nearly as frustrating as losing because you failed to make your own deck work (see: combo decks, Chrome Mox, card selection engines).

Thoughtseizing the wrong card shouldn't be much different than Plowing the wrong creature to baritone's friend.

In fact, I would strongly consider Eva Green for this new player. It's far better than whatever White aggro deck, and about the only real trick you have to explain to him is turn 1 double Ritual into (Thoughtseize/s into) Tombstalker. He can just play his cards in order (LD-discard-creatures-beat face) and still get a good 60% of the deck's power. And it plays more big guys than any deck in the format except Aggro Loam and Dragon Stompy.

[Clark Kant]

I still think Dragon Stompy is the better choice.

It's a far more fun deck to play IMO.

If you go with Angel Stompy, make it a more aggressive build similar to a Dragon Stompy build.

And play 4 Armageddon, now that's a fun card.

The goal is for your friend to have blast playing the deck. If he does, he will figure out the rule stuff on his own.

[TeenieBopper]

Dragonstompy is crazy hard to play, though. You have to have a very good knowledge of the metagame and how many different decks work.

[scrumdogg]

Seconded, Dragon Stompy is much harder than it looks (plus having only 18 real lands leads to some frustrating situations). Goyf Sligh is good anyway & gets better against Counter-Top with a proper sideboard & the printing of Vexing Shusher. Plus it is a blast to play...MWC? Not so fun.

[Zach Tartell]

Of equal importance, what is a good picture of Plains to get? I have like 30 Herbig Islands, enough beta forests and mountains to feed an army, and I don't really play black (nor do I see myself doing it soon). Y'know what, add swamps too. I'm talking black bordered, all of the same picture (no cycles like Ice Age or whatever), and non-beta/APAC/Euro/Guru/Promo of any kind.

Suggestions? That one from invasion with the lighting storm on the horizion is pretty hot.

[Nightmare]

Before we get posting pics for some stupid reason, look here:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9099

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I'd suggest either Burn, Goyf sligh, or a mono white or g/w beatdown deck. Really, just get him to play more, and he'll start to see more decks and figure out what he likes.

[MattH]

Like, knowing what to thoughtseize is tough, even for real players. And winning through finesse (like, knowing what to swords when and how to use Vindicate and when to burn your 'yard for a Tombstalker) is a lot harder than just dropping guys (like, "TARMOGOYF, TURN HIM SIDEWAYS, MAGIC IS SO EASY DUDE!).
Well, duh, except that you're never going to figure out what to take with Thoughtseize by, you know, never ever casting Thoughtseize.

EVERY deck has multiple valid plays on EVERY turn and only one of them is the right/best play. If you're trying to gin up a deck that literally pilots itself that isn't Vintage Dredge pre-sb, you need to find a new game to play. On any given turn it may be hard to choose the 'best' play with that class of black decks, but it's not hard to choose a 'pretty good' one. Which is why it should be a fine beginner deck.

Almost all decks are hard to play perfectly but there's a lot of decks which aren't hard to play well.


The goal is for your friend to have blast playing the deck. If he does, he will figure out the rule stuff on his own.
This man speaks the truth. Maybe he should watch you play a few games between various decks and let HIM pick the one that seemed the most 'fun'.

[Curby]

Maybe he should watch you play a few games between various decks and let HIM pick the one that seemed the most 'fun'.

Yeah, what about introducing the main deck archetypes (aggro/control/combo) and perhaps subarchetypes (aggro-control, prison, etc.) and see what appeals to him? It's like the Timmy/Spike/Bartholomew thing... beginners should get a broad introduction, but at some point the deck should fit the player, not the other way around.

EDIT: Your opening post does say aggro, but this may be due to a lack of familiarity than an actual gameplay preference.

[xXxBretWeedxXx]

Belcher was the best answer given so far. It's really straight forward for someone who obviously is good with math, as the math on the fly is the hardest part. It's the deck I started playing when I got back into magic after 10 years of not playing with only casual experience behind me, and I learned to play it with foreign cards.

There also aren't that many interactions with the other players so there's less chance for confusion. It's good for a stack lesson, hard to imprint the wrong cards and everyone loves a turn 1 win.

I can't think of anything a n00b player loves more than turn 1, you die. I know I was that guy not too long ago. I'm still pretty much that guy. Also he'll love swinging with an army of goblins on turn two.

[Puzzle]

Belcher quickly gets boring. I doubt a casual player will find much fun in it for long.

I'd go for Gobs personally. As has been mentioned earlier, it's not easy to play perfectly but it's pretty easy to win games regularly even when making regular mistakes. That means less frustration and at the same time, a feeling of making regular progress which encourages to stay interested in the format.
There are also many different approaches to it (mono-red and different splashes).

Angel Stompy, Goyf Sligh and co offer less development potential of evolution and progress and less competitiveness, imo.

[etrigan]

Belcher quickly gets boring. I doubt a casual player will find much fun in it for long.


This.

Also a good example why not to give him Burn.