Maintaining the Game State & Spectators

[revenge_inc]

If a match is in progress and I (the spectator) notice an error in the game state (for example player A forgot to lose 1 life from a Fechtland). Is it OK to point this out to the players? I've seen this happen before and always assumed this was acceptable as long as no advice was given but have yet to ask what the official tournament rules say about the matter.

[Anusien]

If a match is in progress and I (the spectator) notice an error in the game state (for example player A forgot to lose 1 life from a Fechtland). Is it OK to point this out to the players? I've seen this happen before and always assumed this was acceptable as long as no advice was given but have yet to ask what the official tournament rules say about the matter.
Nope. Spectators should never interfere in a match. If you see something amiss, inform a judge.

[ninjabear]

One player might consider that you are only pointing out the unfavorable errors for him, thinking that his opponent might be your friend. So you should rush to find a judge (I think you are not allowed to stop the game as an spectator) and the judge might decide to stop the game and investigate what happened, and correct the situation.
Also, note that pointing out "may" triggers, or some other things that have a choice, could get you a disqualification.

[Michael Keller]

Nope. Spectators should never interfere in a match. If you see something amiss, inform a judge.

I was waiting for my top 8 to start in Hadley and I was watching a match in which a guy Echoing Truthed a Phyrexian Dreadnought back to some other guy's hand and he had one of his own out. Not knowing this, it was countered and he for some reason he proceeded to scoop. When myself and a few other spectators informed him of this afterwards (the fact that the other one would have bounced as well), he asked us why we didn't say anything. I wasn't sure of the circumstances, but apparently it was important.

I just said it's not my place. You're the one who couldn't figure it out for yourself, you know?

[Anusien]

he asked us why we didn't say anything. I wasn't sure of the circumstances, but apparently it was important.

I just said it's not my place. You're the one who couldn't figure it out for yourself, you know?
My answer would be, "Because Outside Assistance will get me a Match Loss."

[Michael Keller]

My answer would be, "Because Outside Assistance will get me a Match Loss."

Exactly.

[revenge_inc]

My answer would be, "Because Outside Assistance will get me a Match Loss."
But how is it technically assistance if there is no choice involved? (only a correction of the game state).

+

What is the penalty for what is clearly outside assistance (reminding a player about a "may" affect during upkeep) vs the penalty for what may simply be an unbiased correction of the game state (telling both players they have an Isamaru in play and he is legendary)?

[Anusien]

But how is it technically assistance if there is no choice involved? (only a correction of the game state).

+

What is the penalty for what is clearly outside assistance (reminding a player about a "may" affect during upkeep) vs the penalty for what may simply be an unbiased correction of the game state (telling both players they have an Isamaru in play and he is legendary)?
"Unbiased correction of the game state" is kind of a ludicrous phrase. We'll assume you're right, and say, it's probably not Outside Assistance since it's not strategy advice. At best, you're going to get told by a judge that it's wrong and you should just call a judge, and at worst the judge might consider it Outside Assistance.

Let me restate again. Spectators should not, under any circumstances, interfere in a match. You should only get a judge. In addition to being wrong and potentially having a negative outcome on a match, it's rude. I've seen spectators do it (try to correct a match) while a judge is right there at the match. Come on, people.

[Jaynel]

It's pretty hard to tell what "unbiased" is, especially in a tournament setting. The general rule of thumb is always inform a judge of an error and let him/her handle it.

[Nihil Credo]

What about telling them "Hold on a second, I need to tell a judge something wrong with your match"? Often letting them continue without saying anything may cause the game state to be incredibly screwed up by the time a judge arrives.

[cdr]

Telling them "Hold on a second, I need to tell a judge something wrong with your match" is blatently interfering with the match.

The game state would have been screwed up if you didn't notice anyway.

[Anusien]

What about telling them "Hold on a second, I need to tell a judge something wrong with your match"? Often letting them continue without saying anything may cause the game state to be incredibly screwed up by the time a judge arrives.
How long does it take for you to get a judge? 30 minutes?

And no, as a spectator, there is zero reason for you to interfere with a match at all. The practical reason is because you may not intend to give information away, but you do. The second is that you might tip the players as to what is going on, which is bad. Players trying to fix a gamestate on their own can often incredibly screw it up, and it also lets players potentially get away with cheating.

[Michael Keller]

Seems like this is more of a morality issue than an actual rule. Even though it may be, it should ultimately be the players' responsibility to actively involve a judge rather than having someone else get involved. Not to sound cheesy, but it's very shady when someone else gets involved in a match other than a judge. It's also very taboo among the competitive collective.

[revenge_inc]

You should only get a judge.

What about telling them "Hold on a second, I need to tell a judge something wrong with your match"?


Telling them "Hold on a second, I need to tell a judge something wrong with your match" is blatently interfering with the match.

So here is a fictional scenario:
You finished your match really early and go and watch another one. You are the only spectator. You see one or both players doing what appears to be, "unintentionally messing with the game state"(ex:Mr.A plays an Isamaru while Mr. B has one in play and both players do not apply the legend rule).
You yell "judge" (I assume this is an acceptable way to call for a judge as a spectator, because it is as a player).
The two players you are watching will most likely know that something is amiss. They may even ask you "What's wrong?".
Is it interfering to answer "Wait for a judge"?
How about saying "Pause your match until the judge has arrived"?
Is not the vary fact that you called for a judge interfering?(Should you go see the judge and quietly tell him/her about the error in the game state instead?).

[Anusien]

Seems like this is more of a morality issue than an actual rule. Even though it may be, it should ultimately be the players' responsibility to actively involve a judge rather than having someone else get involved. Not to sound cheesy, but it's very shady when someone else gets involved in a match other than a judge. It's also very taboo among the competitive collective.
If you see something going wrong in a match, or thing you do, get a judge. Would you consider it okay if your opponent won off a lethal Dragonstorm when they could only produce 8 mana (assume they didn't realize)? The reason a player shouldn't get directly involved is because it can be shady, but getting a judge involved is NEVER shady. If you point out rules issues disproportionately that's bad, but calling for a judge is never wrong. (On the other hand, not calling for a judge can be.)

At one point, an [O] source stated that only players should yell judge (or so I'm told). As a spectator, you should just go and get a judge. Doing anything else can be harmful. Go get a judge and tell them, "I was watching a match and I just saw X" and tell them where the match is.

[revenge_inc]

If you see something going wrong in a match, or thing you do, get a judge. Would you consider it okay if your opponent won off a lethal Dragonstorm when they could only produce 8 mana (assume they didn't realize)?
Doesn't a spectator saying: "Pause the game until the judge arrives" prevent the occurrence of such a travesty?

At one point, an [O] source stated that only players should yell judge (or so I'm told).
If anybody that could be considered an "official source" knows anything about this please respond as it would be much appreciated. :wink:

[Anusien]

I'm investigating that last bit.

For the moment, I would say that while you might be able to call JUDGE!, it's not your place as a spectator to maintain the game state. Doing so, and doing things like calling JUDGE! can possibly interfere in the outcome of a game. If nothing else, it might put the players on edge and interfere with their mental state. You're best off getting a judge quietly.

[bigbear102]

Two stories about spectating, both the same day.

I was playing against Burn at GP Philly (Legacy) and a few of the Virginians were watching my match ( I was playing Wombat). I believe it was Alix who got a judge when he noticed that my opponent had an extra card in his hand. Two judges came over and stopped the game. They asked who had played first and began to go through our turns and everything that we had played/drawn. I told the judge that I had played first, and after about five minutes of counting, the judges concluded that my opponent had drawn an extra card and gave him a game loss.

Day 2 rolls around and I had missed out with a 5-2-1 record. Alix was playing in the top 64 against Dredge-Atog. There were about 12 people crowded around the match as it was very close. I was watching over someone's shoulder when I noticed the tog player dredge Stinkweed Imp for his normal draw for the turn, and then proceed to draw a card. I stood there a moment trying to figure out why he had done that, and couldn't figure it out. No one else watching noticed, and I went to find a judge. It turns out that he did just draw a card when he wasn't supposed to and no one noticed but me.

In both instances the spectator just quickly and quietly grabbed a judge and in both cases the situation was dealt with appropriately even after a couple of turns had passed. I also thought it was cool to return the favor seeing as the first day Alix caught my opponent, and the 2nd day I caught his.