[Combo Idea] Energy Field+Wheel of Sun and Moon

[Cavius The Great]

I was talking to by buddy Tividar over the phone, he mentioned about running this combo in one of his decks. The combo consists of Energy Field and Wheel of Sun and Moon and provides a decent little hardlock.

Does anyone think that this combo could become abused? I'm pretty sure fitting it in some sort of control shell, it would be viable. Thoughts?

[Internet Hate Machine]

Sounds a little weak since it doesn't stop them from playing spells and is so easy to remove.

[Nihil Credo]

Does anyone think that this combo could become abused? I'm pretty sure fitting it in some sort of control shell, it would be viable. Thoughts?
For whatever it's worth, its place in Karach is practically guaranteed. One of these days I'll get around to play some more with my pet deck and post the updated build (i.e. same as the old one with those two cards shoehorned in).

[Cait_Sith]

I am with IHM here. The lock stops attacking, but does NOTHING against your opponent buildings up a nice army and smacking you down as soon as they use one of the many ArtiChanment destruction cards there are.

I think that, if you were to use this lock, you would need to use a large suite of control/draw cards as possible, plus defense against cards like Krosan Grip.

I actually think I have an idea for the deck, PM me if you want to talk.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd rather SB the combo than MD it, most of the strength of the combo comes from Wheel of Moon and Sun having applications against Dredge and Loam, so it'd be like SBing 4 cards for graveyard decks and SBing 4 cards for aggro. That seems like a reasonable space investment for some kind of Enlightened Tutor and Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top based control deck.

[Di]

Combos that don't win the game should not be considered combos. End of story.

[Cire]

you can make it an enchantment based deck and have counter-top, greater auramagic, and sterling grove, since your already playing blue: Force and daze combined with all that make the combo hard to remove. Then with ponder and brainstorm and enlightened tutor it would be easy to get in your hand... just some ideas

4 Greater auramagic
4 Energy Feild
4 Wheel of Sun and moon
4 Sterling grove
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Win conditions
3 Counter Balance
3 Top
2 Ponder
20 Lands.

- a rough list that sucks alot

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Stick it in Enchantress? It probably doesn't need it though.

[DeathwingZERO]

Combos that don't win the game should not be considered combos. End of story.

Truth. In reality, Energy Field really doesn't have a chance in this format, Krosan Grips are all over the place. It might be good in combination with Sterling Grove as well, but that's a ridiculous investment for no real game breaking effect.

[Bryant Cook]

Combos that don't win the game should not be considered combos. End of story.

This man knows. ^

[Cavius The Great]

Combos that don't win the game should not be considered combos. End of story.

Combos that prevent you from losing the game is the same thing as winning. :wink: Especially when put in a control shell so that you can counter any idiotic thing you're opponent plays.

EDIT: Can someone put a "security device" on my threads so that people from Azle, Texas aren't able to post in them?

No. Verbal warning---frogboy

[frogboy]

Combos that prevent you from losing the game is the same thing as winning.

www.dictionary.com

[DeathwingZERO]

So then why bother wasting time trying to assemble this combo when you can just play MUC?

Me thinks if you wanted a solid control shell, you can't really beat that.

[Jak]

Combos that prevent you from losing the game is the same thing as winning. :wink: Especially when put in a control shell so that you can counter any idiotic thing you're opponent plays.

EDIT: Can someone put a "security device" on my threads so that people from Azle, Texas aren't able to post in them?

Wrong.

The idea is cute, but what does it fit in? Only thing could be Enchantress, but it doesn't need it.

[Cavius The Great]

Wrong.

The idea is cute, but what does it fit in? Only thing could be Enchantress, but it doesn't need it.

Why would you need it in Enchantress? They run Solitary Confinement. And Meddling Mage can also stop a Krosan Grip if that actually becomes an issue.

[Phantom]

Does this mean Solitary Confinement + Loam = combo??? Isn't this what the word "lock" is for?

[Cavius The Great]

Does this mean Solitary Confinement + Loam = combo??? Isn't this what the word "lock" is for?

My buddy Tivadar was actually advocating for putting them in his UW Angel Stompy deck. I see the logic behind that, since they spend a resource trying to remove it, and if they do remove it, it's not the end of the world and he still has threats on the board anyway.


you can make it an enchantment based deck and have counter-top, greater auramagic, and sterling grove, since your already playing blue: Force and daze combined with all that make the combo hard to remove. Then with ponder and brainstorm and enlightened tutor it would be easy to get in your hand... just some ideas

4 Greater auramagic
4 Energy Feild
4 Wheel of Sun and moon
4 Sterling grove
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Win conditions
3 Counter Balance
3 Top
2 Ponder
20 Lands.

- a rough list that sucks alot

Wouldn't Meddling mage be better than Sterling Grove since you wouldn't have to be playing a 3rd color?

[Internet Hate Machine]

I'm sorry Cavius, I guess I wasn't really clear enough and that's why you felt the need for blatant indirect flames.

I wasn't really rejecting the idea all together, but it just seems a little weak to be classified as a "hard lock". One of the two enchantments does basically nothing by itself, even the combination of the two doesn't really hinder the opponent at all from going about their game plan, it just temporarily stops decks that win by damage until they can bounce/kill/rfg one of the enchantments. It also does nothing about loss of life, so you can still die to tendrils of agony from storm combo. Ultimately, it just seems a little lackluster to use energy feild at all, since the prospective benefits only come from having both cards out at the same time and energy feild is pretty much useless by its lonesome. All I was saying is compared to other options using energy field at all seems a little weak.

[Cavius The Great]

I'm sorry Cavius, I guess I wasn't really clear enough and that's why you felt the need for blatant indirect flames.

I wasn't really rejecting the idea all together, but it just seems a little weak to be classified as a "hard lock". One of the two enchantments does basically nothing by itself, even the combination of the two doesn't really hinder the opponent at all from going about their game plan, it just temporarily stops decks that win by damage until they can bounce/kill/rfg one of the enchantments. It also does nothing about loss of life, so you can still die to tendrils of agony from storm combo. Ultimately, it just seems a little lackluster to use energy feild at all, since the prospective benefits only come from having both cards out at the same time and energy feild is pretty much useless by its lonesome. All I was saying is compared to other options using energy field at all seems a little weak.

Damnit, I just deleted a post about something that I thought didn't work, but it did. :laugh:

Well, you can run stuff like Wrath of God, if they overextend. Plus I'm pretty sure that Energy Field and Wheel of Sun and Moon are good on their own, respectively. Energy Field, at worst, is a couple turn Fogs and Wheel of Sun and Moon is GY hate. (My initial post was much more thoughtful.) :tongue:

[Internet Hate Machine]

Well you have to consider that you most likely dont want to be using you energy feilds as a one-two turn fog that hinders you from playing non permanent spells, unless you were playing a deck like enchantress in which case you would just use Confinement lock. I guess the benefits of Wheel of Sun and Moon can't really be denied but if you use it as GY hate for the opponent then you can't use it on yourself as the enabler for the combo.

I guess what Im saying is it's only really useful in permanent heavy decks so you can at least use energy field without disrupting your own gameplan, and in any instance of a deck like that the only real benefit you would get is randomly suprising some agro decks that dont pack MD answers to enchantments. Even then in most examples it seems like it would be suboptimal. However, I notice Nihil said something about using it in Karach, and it would probably be very useful there. Ultimately though, building a deck around it or using energy field as a random 4 of in a random control deck seems like a pretty bad choice over just winning like a control deck normally would.

Long story short, I think it may be used occassionally, but not widely abused.

[Cavius The Great]

Well you have to consider that you most likely dont want to be using you energy feilds as a one-two turn fog that hinders you from playing non permanent spells, unless you were playing a deck like enchantress in which case you would just use Confinement lock. I guess the benefits of Wheel of Sun and Moon can't really be denied but if you use it as GY hate for the opponent then you can't use it on yourself as the enabler for the combo.

I guess ultimately what Im saying is it's only really useful in permanent heavy decks so you can at least use energy field without disrupting your own gameplan, and in any instance of a deck like that the only real benefit you would get is randomly suprising some agro decks that dont pack MD answers to enchantments. Even then in most examples it seems like it would be suboptimal. However, I notice Nihil said something about using it in Karach, and it would probably be very useful there. Ultimately though, building a deck around it or using energy field as a random 4 of in a random control deck seems like a pretty bad choice over just winning like a control deck normally would.

Long story short, I think it may be used occassionally, but not widely abused.

Why would you play an Energy Field without decent board position or when you're in a situation where it wouldn't save you? I'm pretty sure drawing answers every turn without taking damage from creatures isn't too bad at all.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Why would you play an Energy Field without decent board position or when you're in a situation where it wouldn't save you? I'm pretty sure drawing answers every turn without taking damage from creatures isn't too bad at all.

Why play an energy field at all if it isn't going to save you or win you the game? In a control deck you could win without it just as easily as you could win with it, its narrow, it takes up four slots if you are really building around it, and with less fields you really lose one of its two possible uses since you won't want to fog with your lock piece. Getting that lock down and keeping it there is going to be hell against control or even agro-control, and with landstill and threshold being so popular right now I think that is something to consider. I just really think a control deck built around winning with the lock would be strictly worse than whats already there, since having the thing keeping you alive die to krosan grip seems pretty bad. Wheel of Sun and Moon by itself seems like a pretty weak mainboard option itself, since there are a fair few decks it does nothing against. Another thing to consider, if you are building around the lock what is your actual "win" after you lock the opponent. You'll pretty much have to include a usual control win condition, unless you want to give them their whole deck to draw an answer from, which will take even more slots away from the control elements that help you keep your lock down and force it through. If you arent building a deck reliant on the lock to win, then you will have to ask yourself why you even have suboptimal maindeck cards like Wheel and Field in the first place, when you could just be playing normal control cards and winning just the same. If you follow a proactive approach and try to abuse it with cards like sterling grove, then you will pretty much just end up playing enchantress and Solitary Confinement is just plain better there. Of course this is all my humble opinion, so feel free to prove it wrong, I just really dont think building around the lock or even with it in most cases is optimal.

[tivadar]

A couple comments:

First, let's not use the word "combo" here any more. That implies winning by combo, and really, you're using this "combo" in essentially a lock/control style deck most likely. Really, we're talking a lock deck.

Second, I didn't advocate using this in my Wu Angel Stompy, was just saying I had considered it. And yes, I was thinking of it more for the sideboard anyways.

Third, "combos that don't win you the game...". Let's not forget that countertop doesn't win you the game, but it's still widely played. The real question is how good the deck/lock pieces would be if you can't get them both down. Wheel is most likely useless against non-graveyard decks, big minus. Energy Field is pretty much an ephalump grass (elephant, if you must). Not so bad, not so great.

Honestly, I don't see this being good all by its onesy. I'd have to see a build around it. In fairness, however, I've heard worse ideas. And given the penchant for people running graveyard decks now, I'm not sure how horrible it would be.

Also, consider that it could be used with things like "Web of Inertia" to allow for multiple lock pieces.

[DeathwingZERO]

The problem with this in it's entirety is that "Lock" decks don't work in this format. By most standards, any given deck will either race the pieces (Think TES getting around Energy Shield), or lock you out with the much better (and easier to manipulate) CounterTop engine.

Essentially, this would really only work in a thresh-like build, one that does a mix of soft and hard counters, and has a solid cantrip engine. The question then becomes this:

Why bother with a 2 card setup that is nothing more than a soft-lock on the format, when you can just beat your opponent's with Goyf and soft-lock that's more resilient (CounterTop), and faster to get online?

The other question of course is what is this deck going to even pull off once your opponents start tossing in their Grips? If they hit either piece, you have to dig for more, and they now can get CounterTop online and stop you, or race before you can get that second piece back, since Grip can be played on your turn.

[idraleo]

Combos that prevent you from losing the game is the same thing as winning

10 spell, ToA, GG

[Thehunter820]

Interesting choice of cards, I dont think it would do very good against most decks, because of counters, discards, grips, and the like. Plus I still dont see any reason to run this combo over say fetchland tendrils or Ichorid, and Threshold and Goblins still kills it, so in my opinion the combo could work in casual or an un-competitve meta, but I dont see you doing much placing at a tournament with this.

[Kuma]

I had an Opalescence/Replenish deck once that used Energy Field in the sideboard vs people who brought in Leyline of the Void. It worked pretty well a few times, but half of the "combo" was done for me, and it was ultimately sub-par, because it sucked if they didn't play Leyline. It was also good for buying a turn or two vs goblins, because if they didn't draw Wasteland or Grip, they didn't have a way to put things in my yard.

Energy Field is almost good enough to be played in legacy, but the problem is that you can be 2 for 1'd if the opponent destroys your other combo piece.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

A rule question:
When they Krosan grip your Wheel does it go to the graveyard or under the library?

[Cait_Sith]

Bottom. Someone asked that in the rules section I thought.