Shadowmoor and its effect on legacy

[andreotti16]

I personally think that shadowmoor gave a lot more to legacy than lorywn or morningtide ever did. I know that Tattermunge Maniac is definitly going to be a 4 of in any zoo deck. Vexing shusher will be a 4 of in every goblin deck, and Gutteral responce may or may not very possibly replace red elemental blast, and than of course, there is the legacy deck called Plasma Swans featuring the 4/3 flier. Those are just some that come to mind, any other ideas, feel free to post them.

[Versus]

I dunno. I think Ponder and Thoughtseize alone give Lorwyn the edge over the two recent sets. That's just me though...

[Elficidium]

I would not play Veshing Shusher Mainboard in Goblins or more than twice in the SB.
The Swans Combo has proven to not be as good as it looks and is most effective within a Red thresh shell, not as a dedicated combo deck.
Red Elemental Blast is Inferior to Pyroblast and both seem superior to Guttural response by a mile.
Zoo isn't really a DTB so this shouldn't affect the meta much. Attacking every turn in a format with goyfs is quite the drawback.

Honestly, Lorwyn gave us the Planeswalkers, Thoughtseize, Warren weirding, Wort and Ponder. That's a lot. I'd be surprised if Shadowmoor will end up with at least 1 card as popular as Ponder.

[from Cairo]

I would not play Veshing Shusher Mainboard in Goblins or more than twice in the SB.
The Swans Combo has proven to not be as good as it looks and is most effective within a Red thresh shell, not as a dedicated combo deck.
Red Elemental Blast is Inferior to Pyroblast and both seem superior to Guttural response by a mile.
Zoo isn't really a DTB so this shouldn't affect the meta much. Attacking every turn in a format with goyfs is quite the drawback.

Honestly, Lorwyn gave us the Planeswalkers, Thoughtseize, Warren weirding, Wort and Ponder. That's a lot. I'd be surprised if Shadowmoor will end up with at least 1 card as popular as Ponder.
Warren Weirding was Morningtide, but your post is still spot on. You could add Doran, Gaddock Teeg, Sower of Temptation, Shriekmaw to the list of Lorwyn playables, and Countryside Crusher from Morningtide.

Ponder and Warren Weirding alone I would say rank each of the previous two sets as more influential than Shadowmoor, there was nothing printed in the set that boosts a DTB.

[Michael Keller]

For as much as Grindstones have gone up, the bigger question remains: How much will Painter's Servant have on the Legacy world?

Personally, I think it will see about as much play as Stifle-Dreadnought. It's a decent combo but we'll have to wait and see.

[DeathwingZERO]

We don't have the absurdity that Vintage does with that particular combo. We have to put up with sub-par choices for the Power, and we don't have much to replace it with that keeps either speed or consistency.

[Bryant Cook]

Vexing Shusher <3.

[C.P.]

I know that Tattermunge Maniac is definitly going to be a 4 of in any zoo deck.

False. There are many 2/1s in Legacy, and Maniac is probably one of more marginal ones due of its drawback. It reads:

If your opponents control any creature with ass of 3 or more(see: Tarmogoyf), Sacrifice Tattermunge Maniac and deal 2 damage to that creature.

things like Jackal Pup, Jungle lion, Kird Ape, Skyshoroud Elites are so much better and most of them are seeing only marginal bit of play.

Shadowmoor, in my opinion, is not a great set for Legacy compared to Lorwin and Shadowmoor. Ponder > Shadowmoor.

[munkie]

Ponder > Shadowmoor.


Agreed. However, I really think that Fulminator Mage can make an impact of done right. Shusher will obviously find a home somewhere, right, Bryant?

[Jak]

I think Shadowmoor will have some impact just because of Shusher making people want to pick up combo. Not that it makes TES into Flash or anything, but people will follow the hype and see that SHusher makes TES' harder MUs easier.

[C.P.]

Agreed. However, I really think that Fulminator Mage can make an impact of done right. Shusher will obviously find a home somewhere, right, Bryant?

the mentioned cards will see play in right decks, but not as wide as ponder or thoughtseize. Look how many captrips did ponder invalidated.

[munkie]

Well it was an obvious choice when it came down to Opt vs. Mental Note vs. Ponder.

I was agreeing with you.

They didn't make only a slightly inferior Brainstorm and a broken Duress in Shadowmoor. Lorwyn was groundbreaking. We understand that. I'm just trying to validate the solid-ness of Shadowmoor. I think we need to dig a bit deeper than rare cards to see Shadowmoor's truly good cards. I'm a big fan of Ashenmoor Auger (I think that's his name the B/R B/R B/R 4/4 that can't block). Pretty good, imo.

[C.P.]

Well it was an obvious choice when it came down to Opt vs. Mental Note vs. Ponder.

I was agreeing with you.

They didn't make only a slightly inferior Brainstorm and a broken Duress in Shadowmoor. Lorwyn was groundbreaking. We understand that. I'm just trying to validate the solid-ness of Shadowmoor. I think we need to dig a bit deeper than rare cards to see Shadowmoor's truly good cards. I'm a big fan of Ashenmoor Auger (I think that's his name the B/R B/R B/R 4/4 that can't block). Pretty good, imo.

Point taken. I really like some cards myself.

[tivadar]

I think shadowmoor is a decent set, but it doesn't have signature cards that will see play in a lot of decks, such as, reasonably recently, pithing needle, jotun grunt, and thoughtsieze. Or terribly many awesome goblins such as warren weirding and wort, as someone pointed out.

The one card that I'm surprised no one's mentioned here, given the graveyard love that's been going on in Legacy, is Wheel of Sun and Moon. I bought myself a playset. It's reasonably priced, easier to cast than leyline if it doesn't start in the opening hand, is a replacement effect unlike planar void, and is also good against things like solidarity, which still do see some play. More importantly, it gives green and white some awesome graveyard hate where really only black had it before.

[Jak]

Also tech for not decking yourself in Enchantress ;). I picked up 3 beause it may or may not go in my deck. Picked up 4 Runed Halo and 4 Shusher.

[Bovinious]

This set is kind of like Magikarp's "Splash" attack from the old Pokemon games, "NO EFFECT!" :wink:

[Di]

Funny. Your posting has a similar result as Magikarp's attack.

[Mental]

I don't agree quite with Bovi. 2 cards will have effects:
Vexing Shusher could and I think will make TES a strong contender again, as it alone should push the Thresh MU to about 50/50, better against players who SB wrong.
Manamorphase, to me, is a must have in Belcher as it allows the removal of Street Wraith (which sucked) and the inclusion of Diminishing Returns in the SB (which doesn't).
I don't think much else will get played. The Swans combo isn't as strong as initially projected and I don't think there's a reason to play it over a normal UGr Thresh build. The Painter's Servent combo is vulnerable to almost every played kind of removal in Legacy, so I can't see it being viable.
Wheel Of Sun and Moon is a decent card but I don't think it will replace Leyline. Leyline is more suitable for the aggro/combo decks that play it, while control decks would prefer Extirpate over Wheel or Leyline in all but the strangest metas.

[tivadar]

Wheel Of Sun and Moon is a decent card but I don't think it will replace Leyline. Leyline is more suitable for the aggro/combo decks that play it, while control decks would prefer Extirpate over Wheel or Leyline in all but the strangest metas.

And what if you're not running black? I'm not going to necessarily argue that WOSAM replaces Leyline, just that it's competitive with them and gives good graveyard hate to other colors... Something besides crypt that is. For this reason I think it will find a spot in enough sideboards.

[Mental]

And what if you're not running black? I'm not going to necessarily argue that WOSAM replaces Leyline, just that it's competitive with them and gives good graveyard hate to other colors... Something besides crypt that is. For this reason I think it will find a spot in enough sideboards.

What tier 1-2 decks play straight W without black or a color that gives better access to graveyard hate, that aren't UGw Thresh, which won't play this? UW Landstill isn't exactly strong (though I play it), and Angel Stompy is a bit outdated. Just because a card is playable, and will be played in decks that aren't strong in the current meta, doesn't mean it will impact the format.

[tivadar]

What tier 1-2 decks play straight W without black or a color that gives better access to graveyard hate, that aren't UGw Thresh, which won't play this? UW Landstill isn't exactly strong (though I play it), and Angel Stompy is a bit outdated. Just because a card is playable, and will be played in decks that aren't strong in the current meta, doesn't mean it will impact the format.

What decks run white and/or green but not black? There are 8 DTB decks listed. Three of them use white and/or green, but not black (landstill, and two thresh variants). That's 37% of the decks to beat where this could be useful. Not exactly the tier 1's, but a close enough approximation.

This is useful in:

Thresh variants without black in the mirror or ichorid matchup (why wouldn't they run it? It's even harder to play around than grunt, and never goes poof.)

Landstill against all things Threshold and Ichorid as well.

Beyond this, it's obviously got some uses outside of Tier 1 that you pointed out. Use in Angel Stompy, use in Armageddon Stax, use in Death and Taxes, use against Loam decks, use against Solidarity, and so on, use against The Rock.

You claimed this wouldn't replace leyline. The fact is, this is (almost) strictly better than leyline if it's not in your opening hand, and it also gives good graveyard hate to two colors that didn't have it before. It'll see play in legacy boards so long as the meta remains the same. It'll be the leyline for control and aggro-control decks essentially, especially those not running black.

[Jsang]

Although I am not agree that Shadowmoor will impact the format much, it gives us many potential cards, e.g. swan and painter's stone combo is now not good enough, it doesn't mean that they can't be utilized with later sets.

IMO, Faerie Macabre is the only card I think have instant impact on the format. It hosts all graveyard combo and penetrated protection of chant and counter magic.

[Media314r8]

As a legacy player, I can safely say that painter's servant will be played, along with Demigod of revenge and swans, in legacy but will probably fall short of being Tier one and reside in binders alongside all the timevault/rings and garruk/stasus decks. Oona will probably make it as a one-of in a few big-mna/control decks as a finisher that wins faster/more reliably than meloku.

As a limited player, I can vouch for the design team and confirm that they spent exactly three minutes testing this set for limited play. The set is more 'bmomby' than tenth, and has less removal. There are only 7.5 ways at common/uncommon level (in a large set) to 'kill' the raptor that turns all your dudes into exalteds. (and 3.5 of those only tap it, so you still have to deal with the static ability.) I've personally had to win through midnight banshee + knight of kulrath, midnight banshee + grim poppet, and raptor + the new 5/5 serra that wont die. (I didn't get there against that last one) Absolutely god-awful.

Type 2 is going to go so ape-shit with Shadowmoor to the extent that goyf will look like a fairly-costed dude, and won't make the cut in several green, even MONO green decks. I played against G/W hybrid.dec on MWS and wanted to kill myself. Turn one birds into turn two finks into turn three and four G/W liege and I was taking 7 a turn from a persistent Kitchen Finks. Rather die than play T2 while this set is legal.

As a cube player, I can easily say that Shadowmoor will have an impact in cube, as many of the hybrid cards can be played by several color combinations, effectively making your cube more fun to play with, as now both mono-white and blue control (or two color decks somewhere in between) can play swans and augury adept, ect. Upwards of 15-20 shadowmoor cards will be going in cubes across the country, so if you're a foil junky, get your foils soon while they're cheap/pack-cracking noobs don't know what they're worth. (caresses foil swans, adept, ect that I scored after watching idiots crack four CASES on release day)

Having played T4 before, I can say that Knacksaw Clique is easily one of the coolest dudes to have in your stack, with an ass that's bolt-poof.

[bigbear102]

I don't agree quite with Bovi. 2 cards will have effects:
Manamorphase, to me, is a must have in Belcher as it allows the removal of Street Wraith (which sucked) and the inclusion of Diminishing Returns in the SB (which doesn't).


I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the most successful version of Belcher I have seen recently doesn't play Street Wraith, and does play D.Returns in the Board.

A Legend has been playing it for the past couple of months and has been on an awesome streak. I'm not saying that MM doesn't belong in some builds, I'm just saying that your reasoning is way off. It would be there to allow for Dart Rit to be much more easily castable.

Anyway....

I also believe that Faerie Macabre will see play. Against any combo deck with IGG it's chant proof and can ruin their day. It is also decent against decks like Loam. Not that this is going to make or break the card, but it can shrink a goyf or goose temporarily as a combat trick.

[Brehn]

Aydunno. There are only few exciting cards in Shadowmoor...

1) Most exciting: Vexing Shusher. I like to compare this card to Countryside Crusher:
Before Morningtide, nobody (outside of the Netherlands) played Aggro Loam, although it was a good deck. Now it has raised in popularity and is nearly a deck to beat. Several other decks tried incorporating Crusher (43land, Goyf Sligh, ...), but it didn't work.
I predict that Shusher will have a similar impact. Replace "Aggro Loam" with "TES", "The Netherlands" with "Bryant Cook" and "43land, Goyf Sligh, ..." with "Goblins, other random deck that tries to play Shusher, ...".

2) Second most exciting: Painter's Servant. It's a combo that actually could work. Too bad that both cards pretty much suck on their own.

3) Third most exciting: Swans of Bryn Argoll. Meh. It's not that broken. I'd play Moon Thresh over Swan Thresh anytime.

4) Manamorphose. Street Wraith didn't change Belcher numbers signficantly, neither will Manamorphose. Maybe the deck's average Goldfish turn will decrease by 0.08. Nobody will notice. And other decks can't play that card.

Tattermunge Maniac - Crap. It's a horrible Kird Ape and Kird Ape is already bad.
Guttural Response - Crap. We have REB and Pyroblast.
Demigod of Revenge - I have no idea why anybody is considering to play him.

And that's it. The fact that the currently second most expensive card of the whole set is a hybrid of Gray Ogre and Wasteland pretty much sums it up. Absolutely not comparable to Lorwyn, which brought the awesomeness of Ponder, Thoughtseize and Gaddock Teeg. And created new deckbuilding strategies with Garruk, Jace and Hoofprints. And brought some creatures for (playable! non-goblin!) tribal decks like that merfolk or that faerie deck. Shadowmoor boosts one deck and creates two new archetypes. It's not horrible, but it's far from awesome.

[Zach Tartell]

Having played T4 before, I can say that Knacksaw Clique is easily one of the coolest dudes to have in your stack, with an ass that's bolt-poof.

But not Prophetic Bolt proof. Which is an actual type 4 card.

[andreotti16]

Aydunno. There are only few exciting cards in Shadowmoor...

1) Most exciting: Vexing Shusher. I like to compare this card to Countryside Crusher:
Before Morningtide, nobody (outside of the Netherlands) played Aggro Loam, although it was a good deck. Now it has raised in popularity and is nearly a deck to beat. Several other decks tried incorporating Crusher (43land, Goyf Sligh, ...), but it didn't work.
I predict that Shusher will have a similar impact. Replace "Aggro Loam" with "TES", "The Netherlands" with "Bryant Cook" and "43land, Goyf Sligh, ..." with "Goblins, other random deck that tries to play Shusher, ...".

2) Second most exciting: Painter's Servant. It's a combo that actually could work. Too bad that both cards pretty much suck on their own.

3) Third most exciting: Swans of Bryn Argoll. Meh. It's not that broken. I'd play Moon Thresh over Swan Thresh anytime.

4) Manamorphose. Street Wraith didn't change Belcher numbers signficantly, neither will Manamorphose. Maybe the deck's average Goldfish turn will decrease by 0.08. Nobody will notice. And other decks can't play that card.

Tattermunge Maniac - Crap. It's a horrible Kird Ape and Kird Ape is already bad.
Guttural Response - Crap. We have REB and Pyroblast.
Demigod of Revenge - I have no idea why anybody is considering to play him.

And that's it. The fact that the currently second most expensive card of the whole set is a hybrid of Gray Ogre and Wasteland pretty much sums it up. Absolutely not comparable to Lorwyn, which brought the awesomeness of Ponder, Thoughtseize and Gaddock Teeg. And created new deckbuilding strategies with Garruk, Jace and Hoofprints. And brought some creatures for (playable! non-goblin!) tribal decks like that merfolk or that faerie deck. Shadowmoor boosts one deck and creates two new archetypes. It's not horrible, but it's far from awesome.

Now i strongly disagree there. Lorywn brought a lot of stuff, but i see many decks that will run duress before they run thoughtseize, just because of that 2 life. Gaddock teeg is not that great of a card either (name at least 2 decent GW decks that Gaddock teeg won't ruin) and aside from very few garrucks, planeswalkers don't exist in legacy. Their too slow. Vexing Shusher will be a bigger impact than you give it credit for.


Oh, and gutteral responce is a good sideboard card for green when its not paired up with red.



I would not play Veshing Shusher Mainboard in Goblins or more than twice in the SB.
The Swans Combo has proven to not be as good as it looks and is most effective within a Red thresh shell, not as a dedicated combo deck.
Red Elemental Blast is Inferior to Pyroblast and both seem superior to Guttural response by a mile.
Zoo isn't really a DTB so this shouldn't affect the meta much. Attacking every turn in a format with goyfs is quite the drawback.

Honestly, Lorwyn gave us the Planeswalkers, Thoughtseize, Warren weirding, Wort and Ponder. That's a lot. I'd be surprised if Shadowmoor will end up with at least 1 card as popular as Ponder.

Considering that about 70% of legacy decks run blue, i would mainboard Shusher, but maybe i wouldn't do 4.

Merged triple post. -J

[Mental]

What decks run white and/or green but not black? There are 8 DTB decks listed. Three of them use white and/or green, but not black (landstill, and two thresh variants). That's 37% of the decks to beat where this could be useful. Not exactly the tier 1's, but a close enough approximation.

This is useful in:

Thresh variants without black in the mirror or ichorid matchup (why wouldn't they run it? It's even harder to play around than grunt, and never goes poof.)

Landstill against all things Threshold and Ichorid as well.

Beyond this, it's obviously got some uses outside of Tier 1 that you pointed out. Use in Angel Stompy, use in Armageddon Stax, use in Death and Taxes, use against Loam decks, use against Solidarity, and so on, use against The Rock.

You claimed this wouldn't replace leyline. The fact is, this is (almost) strictly better than leyline if it's not in your opening hand, and it also gives good graveyard hate to two colors that didn't have it before. It'll see play in legacy boards so long as the meta remains the same. It'll be the leyline for control and aggro-control decks essentially, especially those not running black.
I see your point about WoSM, and I guess I agree with some of it and disagree with some. The assumption that it will be played in Thresh is ridiculous. Even playing it in the board is a ridiculous idea, because Thresh needs a large graveyard to put any pressure on a deck like Ichorid, and Ichorid plays tons of answers to things like WoSM. Sure, it's decent, Ichorid will just bring in Ray of Revelation, and Thresh won't have any clock while Ichorid draws into a ridiculously nutty hand.

In Angel Stax, it will probably see play.
In UW Still, it will probably see play. However, that deck doesn't see play.

Name the other decks that runs W but not B and are in the top tier.

[Jak]

I see your point about WoSM, and I guess I agree with some of it and disagree with some. The assumption that it will be played in Thresh is ridiculous. Even playing it in the board is a ridiculous idea, because Thresh needs a large graveyard to put any pressure on a deck like Ichorid, and Ichorid plays tons of answers to things like WoSM. Sure, it's decent, Ichorid will just bring in Ray of Revelation, and Thresh won't have any clock while Ichorid draws into a ridiculously nutty hand.

In Angel Stax, it will probably see play.
In UW Still, it will probably see play. However, that deck doesn't see play.

Name the other decks that runs W but not B and are in the top tier.

So if a card can be answered, we shouldn't play it? I don't like that arguement. Also, Wheel only affects one player of your choice so you can still beat down with your Goyf and Goose.

I really think Runed Halo and Wheel will give Enchantress another push. It needed combo hate (Runed Halo) and it needed help with sweepers (Wheel). It is already a really strong deck and is getting stronger cards to prevent it from being hated out.

[Mental]

So if a card can be answered, we shouldn't play it? I don't like that arguement. Also, Wheel only affects one player of your choice so you can still beat down with your Goyf and Goose.

Whoa, what? I guess I just suck at this game. In that, Wheel will see some play, I guess. It will be included in UGw Thresh, Stax, and UW Landstill. That's about all I see, but I guess that's decent.

[Jak]

Whoa, what? I guess I just suck at this game. In that, Wheel will see some play, I guess. It will be included in UGw Thresh, Stax, and UW Landstill. That's about all I see, but I guess that's decent.

I thoguht the same thing at first and was hesitant to put it into Enchantress because after they Deed, they get Deed back. Then I read it and came!

[Mental]

I thoguht the same thing at first and was hesitant to put it into Enchantress because after they Deed, they get Deed back. Then I read it and came!

Now I need to pick up a set. Damn!

[Nihil Credo]

Nitpick: Stax won't play Wheel of Sun and Moon, because Stax has little to no use for graveyard hate - every yard-based deck out there can be hated better with more synergistic tools (taxing for Ichorid, Chalice+Ring+Field for Aggro Loam, and pretty much everything in your deck for Breakfast)

[Cait_Sith]

I am with Nihil on this one. Wheel just doesn't make sense in Stax. Now, if they had a nice enchantment that helped you draw cards (and was white) that would be a lot more likely to pop up in Stax.

[Mr.C]

I am with Nihil on this one. Wheel just doesn't make sense in Stax. Now, if they had a nice enchantment that helped you draw cards (and was white) that would be a lot more likely to pop up in Stax.

Like Pursuit of Knowledge?

[Lego]

Like Pursuit of Knowledge?

Total combo with Sylvan Library.