How to beat blue based control?

[Moczoc]

Recently I played a lot at MWS and lost many many games against NQG, Landstill and U/W Control. I it seems like these decks do have mostly positive matchups against the rest of the field. How can I beat them consistently?

[URABAHN]

Recently I played a lot at MWS and lost many many games against NQG, Landstill and U/W Control. I it seems like these decks do have mostly positive matchups against the rest of the field. How can I beat them consistently?

What are you running that you're having a hard time with those decks?

[Brushwagg]

What are you running that you're having a hard time with those decks?

That's the biggest question. If you running Combo then all of those decks will give you major problems.

[Bryant Cook]

That's the biggest question. If you running Combo then all of those decks will give you major problems.

Not if you run Vexing Shusher.

[Nihil Credo]

Not if you run Vexing Shusher.
Am I to take this as "none of those decks will give you problems", or "not all of those decks will give you problems"?

[Bryant Cook]

Am I to take this as "none of those decks will give you problems", or "not all of those decks will give you problems"?

Gro might still give you problems since it actually has a somewhat decent clock. I just love how amazing Shusher is against blue decks. At first I thought he'd only be good at protecting Chant. You don't need Chant, he's a wall of "my spells resolve".

[abbeyroad]

If you like combo
Ichorid is a great deck against blue based control decks because traditional counterspells and board control does not effect Ichorid. Although Ichorid is hurt by other things, such as, grave hate and tabernacle at pendrells vale.
If you like aggro
Most aggro decks are fairly good against blue based control. Goblins in particular because of its sheer speed and continuous threats.

[Phantom]

Aggro Loam

[Lego]

Aggro Loam

Unfortunately, it seems to be bad against the rest of the format :-\

[Bovinious]

If you like combo
Ichorid is a great deck against blue based control decks because traditional counterspells and board control does not effect Ichorid. Although Ichorid is hurt by other things, such as, grave hate and tabernacle at pendrells vale.
If you like aggro
Most aggro decks are fairly good against blue based control. Goblins in particular because of its sheer speed and continuous threats.

QFT, best deck for stomping blue imo :wink:

[Phantom]

Unfortunately, it seems to be bad against the rest of the format :-\

So it keeps hanging around the DtB forum by only facing three decks in large tourneys?

I respectfully disagree.

[andreotti16]

Well i see two real options: You could either run something like MUC (plz don't splash g for tarmogoyf like someone else did) and try to out control the control deck, or you could run a really strong aggro deck like boros deck wins, or goblins. But in combo, you will have your worst match up.

[Lego]

So it keeps hanging around the DtB forum by only facing three decks in large tourneys?

I respectfully disagree.

Actually, yes. There are enough metagames with enough Thresh/Landstill that Aggro Loam can put up results by maintaining a good matchup against them.

[Eldariel]

Countertop is pretty effective against Aggro Loam though, which is why I'd be vary of taking it to a metagame heavy with Countertop Threshold-builds. Still, it's very good against non-Wish Landstill (Wish-based Landstill can nuke the engine with Extirpate and has no issues dealing with the ~16 threats if you don't have Loam to draw into extras) and UW Control.

I'd say Aggro Loam is a very decent option for that metagame given certain builds of the opposing decks, but it's far from autowinning all those match-ups. I'd probably just play Rb Goblins with Port though. It's favoured against all those decks (or well, Threshold MU can depend on the Threshold-builds, as ever), has a fundamentally strong gameplan to beat a large variety of random decks easily and just wins a lot. Basically, the deck didn't rule the format for a year for no reason whatsoever.

[Phantom]

Maybe it's just the way I'm building my AggroLoam decks, but with 4-8 discard spells main, and access to Deed, Eng Explosives, Grip, Chalice, 3cc fatties, and Reverant Silence out of the wishboard Counterbalance has never been a major concern. Burning Wish also handles all relevant hate, and really the deck has access to a ton of creatures that rely little to none on having an active Loam.

[Eldariel]

Maybe it's just the way I'm building my AggroLoam decks, but with 4-8 discard spells main, and access to Deed, Eng Explosives, Grip, Chalice, 3cc fatties, and Reverant Silence out of the wishboard Counterbalance has never been a major concern. Burning Wish also handles all relevant hate, and really the deck has access to a ton of creatures that rely little to none on having an active Loam.

I'm aware of the creatures' dissociation with Loam, but fact is that Landstill is a deck very able to deal with a number large creatures; none of its removal spells care for size, and it plays them in numbers.

I may be wrong in regards of Countertop, seeing that I've only played a few matches between Threshold and Aggro Loam, but from my experience, it still hurts a lot as it cuts off Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams, Loam itself and Tarmogoyf. Of course, the discard helps, but all those decks still play Brainstorm, which in turn helps against discard when you have certain bombs against certain deck.


Grip solves though, that's very true. Also, Reverent is a fine way to solve Top, but both of those are mostly available post-board. I wouldn't go as far as to say that losing your draw engine is inconsequential, even if you have bombs to back it up.

[Nihil Credo]

Actually, yes. There are enough metagames with enough Thresh/Landstill that Aggro Loam can put up results by maintaining a good matchup against them.
Most of Aggro Loam's Top 8s come from Spanish and German tournaments. German may be heavy on Thresh, Landstill and Stax, but Spain is definitely a varied metagame, with every Tier 1 deck from Goblins to Faerie Stompy running around.

Also, Aggro Loam is an archetype that lends itself well to customizations. With Chalice Loam sideboarding Moons I'd feel comfortable facing any Thresh variant, but Goblins is considerably more challenging, especially with Weirding. On the other side, a 20-creature build with spot removal and using Loam mostly as an enabler would in all likelihood slaughter Goblins.

[Moczoc]

I tried various deck, many builds of the developmental forums here.
I just wanted to know in general with decktypes have an explicit good matchup against blue based control or wich keycards could improve these difficult matchups.

Thank you for the replies so far!


Thresh, Landstill and Stax

I rarely saw Stax but the meta here in Germany is full of all sorts of Thresh and Landstill (or I'm just unlucky ; (

[Arsenal]

Suicide Black has always had a favorable matchup versus blue based control. However, you sacrifice a lot of other matchups in the process if you run Sui Black.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Goblins, from my understanding.

Lackey and Vial both circumvent counterspells if they hit, Ringleader brings in overwhelming card advantage, Warchief makes your spells cost less then theirs, and you play to many things for Shackles to stop you.

[Phantom]

I'm aware of the creatures' dissociation with Loam, but fact is that Landstill is a deck very able to deal with a number large creatures; none of its removal spells care for size, and it plays them in numbers.



The way you beat Landstill is with recursion, both wasteland and creatures (through Stronghold or Genesis).



I may be wrong in regards of Countertop, seeing that I've only played a few matches between Threshold and Aggro Loam, but from my experience, it still hurts a lot as it cuts off Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams, Loam itself and Tarmogoyf. Of course, the discard helps, but all those decks still play Brainstorm, which in turn helps against discard when you have certain bombs against certain deck.


Grip solves though, that's very true. Also, Reverent is a fine way to solve Top, but both of those are mostly available post-board. I wouldn't go as far as to say that losing your draw engine is inconsequential, even if you have bombs to back it up.

(Reverent Silence kills all enchantments, not artifacts)

I'm not ever going to claim that CB/top engine doesn't kill the deck, because it does, just that there are so many ways to deal with it pre or post emptively, that it only really wins Threshold about one out of every five games (rough estimate) and that the matchup was already so heavily favored that Loam remains unlikely to lose a match.

[Eldariel]

The way you beat Landstill is with recursion, both wasteland and creatures (through Stronghold or Genesis).

Again, unless they have access to Extirpate to remove Loam (and I suppose, Genesis) - they merely need to counter Wishes while relying on their removal to solve creatures and they're fine at that point.

[Bryant Cook]

Mess with their manabase. Bloodmoon, Magus, Wasteland/stifle, Back to basics, Winter Orb.

[Angelfire]

Play green or red and play Vexing Shusher.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Another way to beat control is to play more things that they must deal with then they have anwsers. If you have sixteen cards that 'win' you the game, and they only have twelve counters, at least one of those should land. Sweepers like Deed change this though.
Mess with their manabase. Bloodmoon, Magus, Wasteland/stifle, Back to basics, Winter Orb.However, only Winter Orb will cripple mono blue control.

[Kadaj]

Play Goblins. Contrary to what people seem to believe, Control does not have a positive matchup against Goblins. Quite the opposite actually.

[Bryant Cook]

Play Goblins. Contrary to what people seem to believe, Control does not have a positive matchup against Goblins. Quite the opposite actually.

Then get rocked by the other half of the format that evolved around goblins?

[Eldariel]

Then get rocked by the other half of the format that evolved around goblins?

The half that isn't present in this meta? That one?

[Kadaj]

Then get rocked by the other half of the format that evolved around goblins?

What half? Combo? Combo isn't popular enough at a given tournament to worry about in that regard, and having a good SB can make it more bearable although still not good. Beyond that, I'm not seeing the "half of the metagame" that Goblins loses to. I mean seriously, you have a decent matchup against Threshold, you smash most control, have a shaky to terrible combo matchup, and you crush randomness. What half of the metagame am I missing that Goblins loses to?

[Bryant Cook]

What half? Combo? Combo isn't popular enough at a given tournament to worry about in that regard, and having a good SB can make it more bearable although still not good. Beyond that, I'm not seeing the "half of the metagame" that Goblins loses to. I mean seriously, you have a decent matchup against Threshold, you smash most control, have a shaky to terrible combo matchup, and you crush randomness. What half of the metagame am I missing that Goblins loses to?

Threshold is a large portion, combo, survival variants, and ichorid are just a few decks that easily are a big chunk combined that beat goblins.

[Kadaj]

Threshold is a large portion, combo, survival variants, and ichorid are just a few decks that easily are a big chunk combined that beat goblins.

I really think you're overrating all of those deck's (with the exception of combo) chances against Goblins. A good Goblins player with a solid list (Port, Rb or Rg) could easily maintain positive matchups against Threshold and Survival, with the SB coming in to make Ichorid manageable although probably still not good. Yes, Survival has a lot of tools that look like they rock Goblins on paper, but how is that any different from Landstill which also has a ton of cards that look like they'd cut straight through Goblins but don't actually work that way in practice?

I mean yes, if Survival gets to the mid-game unmolested and is churning out hasted Tarmogoyfs every turn then Goblins will almost definitely lose, but how likely is it that Goblins will just sit there and let Survival make that work? Not very likely I imagine. And I'm sure you could tune Survival to have a much better Goblins matchup, or just about anything else, but that would be sarcrificing maneuverability and power elsewhere.

Maybe I'm completely offbase, but I'd be really surprised if either Threshold or Goblins has greater than a 55-45 matchup against Goblins.

[C.P.]

...ichorid are just a few decks that easily are a big chunk combined that beat goblins.

Not true. goblins vs Ichorid may favor Ichorid G1, but it is cetainly not as lopside as to 'rocking' goblins. With Fanatics and other GY hate, the matchup is very reasonable.

Blue control loses to Suicide variant. Just Discard their ass followed by LD and fast clock.

[URABAHN]

I tried various deck, many builds of the developmental forums here.

The decks from New and Developmental are still in development, they're not 100% tuned for the metagame and might not be an optimal choice against the decks you're bumping into. If you're willing to help develop N&D decks, then take notes and share with everyone.


I just wanted to know in general with decktypes have an explicit good matchup against blue based control or wich keycards could improve these difficult matchups.

What's good against U/W Control, Landstill, and NQG? From my experience, Ichorid is pretty damn good against all of those decks, TES is pretty damn good against U/W Control and Landstill, and Goblins is pretty good against U/W Control and Landstill. As far as Goblins v. Gro, I think it depends on what flavor of Gro your opponent is running.


I rarely saw Stax but the meta here in Germany is full of all sorts of Thresh and Landstill (or I'm just unlucky ; (

In real life meta or MWS meta? If your meta is full of Thresh and Landstill, Ichorid seems pretty good.


Blue control loses to Suicide variant. Just Discard their ass followed by LD and fast clock.

CP's right, Eva Green (and even Red Death) causes headaches for Blue Control. Speaking from the perspective of Landstill, you have to play nearly perfect Magic to beat those decks.