Can 2 Lotus Petals cast a Frogmite?

[RoddyVR]

Once my ravagers show up in the mail, i'll have all the cards i need for an Affinity deck. So i was reading up on the actual rules for affinity, and here's what i stumbled across, that seems a bit wierd.


409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost (as determined in rule 409.1b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can?t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes ?locked in.? If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, ?Playing Mana Abilities?). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

This means if i have nothing but 2 lotus petals in play, i can announce playing Frogmite, since i have 2 artifacts in play, he'll cost 2 mana to play, then i sac the petals to pay that 2 mana...

Seems realy wrong somehow.
Can it realy work that way? Are Lotus Petals realy 2 mana a piece towards spells with affinity?

[Bryant Cook]

Yes, it works.

[mujadaddy]

Yes, it works.

Is it because you can play it at mana-source speed? Ie, it wouldn't work if you could somehow cast Frogmite from a single Lion's Eye Diamond?

[Michael Keller]

Is it because you can play it at mana-source speed? Ie, it wouldn't work if you could somehow cast Frogmite from a single Lion's Eye Diamond?

In doing so, you'd have to fulfill the requirements of the Diamond first. And because you'd only have one artifact at that point in time, you couldn't. You'd have to ditch your hand to get that mana first. I mean, you could play Frogmite...but this is assuming you only have one artifact in play and no other mana sources/artifacts, correct?

[mujadaddy]

In doing so, you'd have to fulfill the requirements of the Diamond first. And because you'd only have one artifact at that point in time, you couldn't. You'd have to ditch your hand to get that mana first.

Right, but let's go ahead an make it a "Lion's Eye Lotus" that *didn't* have the discard your hand effect, but the mana still came at instant speed. Is this the same or different from the Lotus Petal example?

[Tog]

The reason it works is because you announce a spell before paying any costs for it. Once it's been announced, the costs are locked in. A similar tricky play which comes up for affinity in Extended is the following:

Board:
2 Non-Blue Artifact Mana
1 Artifact (Say Arcbound Worker)
1 Chromatic Star

You announce playing Thoughtcast. It's cost is U because you have 4 artifacts in play. You may now sacrifice the Star for you to pay for it's cost.

~Tog

[Cait_Sith]

Right, but let's go ahead an make it a "Lion's Eye Lotus" that *didn't* have the discard your hand effect, but the mana still came at instant speed. Is this the same or different from the Lotus Petal example?

Here is how it works:

Normally, you can play a mana ability whenever you have priority, including during the announcement/resolution of spells and abilities.

You play the Frogmite. Affinity adjusts the cost to :2:. You then tap and sac both Lotus Petals to pay the :2:.

With LED, it says you may only play the ability whenever you may play an instant. A instant can be played whenever you have priority, but not during the announcement/resolution of another ability.

In all other respects this is a normal mana ability, except for that. To get the mana to play a spell off of Lion's Eye Diamond, you need to first activate the ability, which results in you discarding your hand.

Confused no more?

[mujadaddy]

In all other respects this is a normal mana ability, except for that. To get the mana to play a spell off of Lion's Eye Diamond, you need to first activate the ability, which results in you discarding your hand.

Confused no more?
Confused? No. It's not my thread. I just thought it was an interesting rules topic.

To be clear, if you had the Frogmite castable, but RFG or something so it's not in your hand, one could or could not cast it from a single LED? Affinity adjusts the cost to :3: -- but can you crack it (at instant speed) to resolve the Frogmite & pay for it?

...I think my question is pretty straightforward, but ask if I'm unclear.

[Cait_Sith]

They COULD NOT. You cannot cast Instants during the announcement of a spell, which includes the paying of costs.

It was for this reason that LED actually had that clause put into it.

[mujadaddy]

They COULD NOT. You cannot cast Instants during the announcement of a spell, which includes the paying of costs.

It was for this reason that LED actually had that clause put into it.S'wot I thought.

See, I'm back from the days of Interrupts. That was clear & understandable ;)

[Bovinious]

Yeah this works with Lotus Petal but not LED because it has power-level errata :rolleyes:

[Cait_Sith]

Yeah this works with Lotus Petal but not LED because it has power-level errata :rolleyes:

Wrong, The errata to LED was functional, not power level.

[quicksilver]

Yeah this works with Lotus Petal but not LED because it has power-level errata :rolleyes:

It's not a power level errata it's an errata to make it work the same way it worked when it was origionally printed. When the rules changed they had to change the wording to make it function the same under the new rules.

That's like saying Candelabra's tap cost is a power level errata when they got rid of mono artifacts. The errata is just to make it function the same under new rules as it did before, to maintain the power level, not change it.

[revenge_inc]

Rule 409.1h is also relevant in this case:

409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs :3: :b: and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost :1: less to play. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay :2: :b: , not :3: :b: , even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.

Is the Frogmite on the stack before the cost is payed?

[Cait_Sith]

Yes. The spell goes on the stack once announcement begins.

[revenge_inc]

Yes. The spell goes on the stack once announcement begins.
Then what stops a player from playing any spell he wants and then not paying for it (just to increase the storm count)?

[Jaiminho]

If any of the steps required to play a spell can't be completed, then the game state returns to that of the moment right before the spell was played.

[Van Phanel]

If any of the steps required to play a spell can't be completed, then the game state returns to that of the moment right before the spell was played.

Also if you knowingly announce a spell you can't pay for you are cheating.

[revenge_inc]

Do you ever pass priority between the time at which you announce you are playing a spell and the time at which you pay for it?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

No, priority isn't passed until after you get a chance to play something in response, but don't.

[landstill101]

Just to clarify, to make it easier, say there is a lion's eye in play, and you announce a frogmite, if you then sac the lion's eye to pay for it, the FROGMITE is still in your hand so you would have to discard it and then take 3 mana burn. Thats how it works, if you announce it, its not on the stack untill it is payed for, that is why there is no response between announcing and playing, because there is nothing on the stack. Thats also why it doesnt matter (other than in affinity cases) whether you tap your mana then play a spell or if you declare the spell than pay for it nothing is on the stack till both things happen soo there is no responses. As your other post, say you had a black lotus then yes it would work because it doesnt have the discarding effect.

[Cait_Sith]

This is wrong. Once you announce that Frogmite it is on the stack.

The thing is you CANNOT use LED's ability during announcement because you cannot play an instant during the announcement of a spell.

The discarding effect is not relevant to the ability of LED to play cards from hand. It is the restricted timing.

[revenge_inc]

The thing is you CANNOT use LED's ability during announcement because you cannot play an instant during the announcement of a spell..

Ok, now I understand the reason behind Lion's Eye Diamond's (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=3255) "Play this ability only any time you could play an instant" clause.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

In a similar vein, can you sacrifice a Wild Cantor for both parts of the cost of Culling the Weak?

[Cait_Sith]

No. You cannot sacrifice a single thing twice.