Viability of w/g hybrid In Legacy

[Sek'Kuar]

As I have played with the new Shadowmoor cards over the past few weeks I have noticed that some of my favorite cards are in g/w. Oversoul of Dusk, although it has a cc of 5, still is a 5/5 beater which basically has "protection from removal not named StP". Shield of the Oversoul grants Tarmogoyf +1/+1 and makes it indestructible, causing a huge threat to be even scarier. An indestructible Tarmogoyf is the stuff nightmares are made of. And last on my list is Kitchen Finks. Not only is it fun to say "3/2 beater, I gain 2", but to have it come back from the grave as a 2/1 and gain me another 2? That could be very game altering. Now if only it had flash...

My question to you is are any of these actually viable in Legacy, or did I succumb to the Danger of Cool Things? Perhaps there are a few that I have overlooked. let me know your thoughts.

[rleader]

I don't think Danger of Cool things applies because nothing here is all that cool.

Oversoul < Simic Sky Swallower. If you can mana ramp to the first, might as well go to the second (and you can Animate Dead it, too).

Shield is nice. OTOH, it just makes enemy swords into a two for one. It would probably make the cut for that Tallowisp deck that gets kicked around every so often though.

[Fossil4182]

Oversoul of Dusk: There are two issues that I think need to be overcome before one could consider Oversoul of the Dusk. The first is that since its a 5 cc for a 5/5 body with pro UBR, it makes it hard to justify investing that much. Simic Sky Swallower and to a less extent even Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel are going to give you better protection options when compared to the Oversould of Dusk. The other issue is that Oversoul lacks an evasive ability beyond just having protection. All of the aforementioned have flying allowing them to attack right over the Oversoul.

Shield of the Oversoul: Its not a bad card, but I only wonder if there aren't better cards out there to be used. Umezawa's Jitte costs one less to cast and can give you some of the same benefits such as pumping. In addition to that, it can also be used to boost your Kitchen Finks (or kill it...though you'd gain more life just using Jitte counters) I think you illustrate the main reason why you ought to prefer Jitte is that without STP protection, weighing how good the two stack up next to each other, Jitte will almost always win. I also don't see this being better than Sword of Fire and Ice and I'd almost toss Rancor in there since the trample, +2 and recuring effect make it a better investment since it won't go away and gives Tarmogoyf the ability to trample over blockers instead of getting cump blocked each turn.

Kitchen Finks: I link them in a deck like Rock or something as a sideboard card. I think the ability is cool, however I don't see a deck where they are going to come out and just shine. However, I may wrong.

[Versus]

Kitchen Finks combined with Saffi is a net life gain of 8 and (baring STP) essentially 5 chump blockers all for a total of 5 mana. If you could get something going in the air or outclass/play your own Goyfs...I dunno where I'm going with this, but you get the general idea.

I will say that in T2 the deck seems pretty solid. Combined with Wall of Roots for further mana acel and ground stall, Garruk for dudes and CA, and Wrath for the sweep. It was pretty annoying to play against. Also Teeg/Saffi as 4/4 indestructible flyers FTW. Watchwolf or Heirach would be even better as Legacy class Sheild targets.

[Sek'Kuar]

I guess the thing that I was trying to say is that I like these 3 cards, And I was trying to see if they were viable. Id like to see a legacy port of that saffi/teeg/finks deck. I might have to give it a shot. As an aside, I just want to throw out there that Kitchen Finks is one of my favorite cards, and it IS my favorite in SHM. Perhaps thats why im so gung-ho to use them. I kind of would like to see it played in Rock, like fossil said, or maybe Truffle Shuffle. I especially like the synergy that it has with pernicious deed and cabal therapy. Due to the wording, you can sac a "fresh" (no -1/-1 counters) finks and still get him back. (something tells me this begs to be broken). I just think he is one of the best cards in the set.

[TrialByFire]

Oversoul is outclassed by other fatties, Shield is a creature enchantment in a format where the only creature enchantment that is ALMOST played is Rancor, which avoids the 2 for 1 most of the time. Lastly, Finks is halfway decent and could see play, but it costs 3 mana. Deed costs 3 mana. Vindicate costs 3 mana. You can see that they don't match up power wise.

[rleader]

I guess the thing that I was trying to say is that I like these 3 cards,

Right, I saw that, hope I didn't come off as too negative.

I think the most disappointing thing for me about Shadowmoor hybrid is that it lacks the power level of gold (or at least it should by design; cp. dev. stories about how Augury Adept shouldn't be a hybrid card) while generally being unworkable in legacly style acceleration (mox + city of traitors + ancient tomb) style decks due to the heavy color requirement. So in most cases, you're not getting what you pay for, unless it's something that can be seething songed / dark ritualed out, and the red/black hybrid cards are a bit underwhelming.

[Sek'Kuar]

Right, I saw that, hope I didn't come off as too negative.


No, no, You were fine. And I agree, but I still like the persist mechanic as far as Finks is concerned. if you pop deed to wipe the board, you could wind up with a 2/1 and +2 life. or say you therapy someone, beat for 3, sac to strip a card, and nextturn have a 2/1 body and +2 life. I understand that Finks has a cc of 3, but the benefits outweigh that IMO. That being said, only testing and time will tell...

[scrumdogg]

And you can't play Rancor with Oversoul, Goyf, Finks & Co. why exactly? Or with Brawn + SotF, which brings up one of the reasons that you see very few dedicated GW Legacy decks - they don't utilize either the phrase 'draw cards' or 'suddenly & violently say no to your opponent'. GW traditionally gets buried by card advantage by control/aggro-control & gets laughed at by combo. Survival decks can deal quite nicely with control, but straight GW still has difficulty dealing with combo as SotF is too slow, most of the time, and without dedicated card draw you need such a vast overload of answers to combo in order to find them in time that it warps either the decks, the sidebaords or both (or doesn't & just loses, which also sucks). GWU or GWB with some of the new cards could be right hot...but when discussing costs like:wg::wg::wg::wg::wg: and black or blue, in a world that includes Dragon Stompy...things get complicated. Feel free to brainstorm lists & post them in N&D, can't be any worse or less tested than the bolii spewed out by Cavius & Clark Kant-buy-a-clue. Perhaps your cards can play with the upper tier decks/cards with some (a lot) of work (except for Finks, which is already good).

[Team-Hero]

The only card I can imagine being viable in legacy is Kitchen Finks. They would really fit nice in a white/blue control deck.

Example: Kitchen Finks, Heartmender, and Wrath of God

The Kitchen Finks and Heartmender come back into play after a Wrath of God. The Finks net you life gain and become beaters. The Heartmender becomes a 'repairman' and prepares your creatures for the next Wrath effect. With enough strategy behind it, who knows... maybe even a Cataclysm, Diabolic Intent, Attrition, Ghost Council of Orzhova, Jinxed Ring, or Jinxed Idol could work for this type of deck.

[Pinder]

So what do people think of Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers? 4 mana 4/4s that give all your :wg: guys +2/+2 (and go all Dodecapod against Hymn) and 3 mana 3/4s with Vigilance seem pretty sexy. Especially since in a :wg: deck they both are essentially colorless. Also, Liege is hot with Finks, too, because it gives it +2/+2, so once it comes back it's still a 4/3.

Of course, you could ditch the white entirely and go MGA with Birds and Llanowar to accel into these guys, and Harmonize or something to fill your hand back up. Probably not good enough to break the format, but it seems like it could be decent.

[revenge_inc]

As much as I love the :wg: combination in Extended, I find it too slow for Legacy. Shield of Oversoul is definitely my favourite card to come out of Shadowmoor but in a format with fast storm decks and efficient counters it is too expensive and too slow.

[Team-Hero]

So what do people think of Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers? 4 mana 4/4s that give all your :wg: guys +2/+2 (and go all Dodecapod against Hymn) and 3 mana 3/4s with Vigilance seem pretty sexy. Especially since in a :wg: deck they both are essentially colorless. Also, Liege is hot with Finks, too, because it gives it +2/+2, so once it comes back it's still a 4/3.

I like it too. I think these two cards have potential as well. At least you can add in the Hierarch, Watchwolf, and Noble Panther with the liege. I think that GW does have SOME potential. I mean, green now has Harmonize like Pinder said. White at least has Orims Chant and Abeyance to somewhat fight off combo. Not to mention Armageddon to shut the game down and Swords for removal.

With all this, it's still an uphill battle. At least now GW can now beat decks like burn or Dead Guy Ale (in theory, I haven't tested this).

[rleader]

Dead Guy Ale (in theory, I haven't tested this).

I kind of doubt it. No one's going to blind-hymn and a lot of Ale builds will slow down how fast a GW deck can get to four mana. OTOH, I think Elves has so many cards that are, at least in theory, scary to Thresh now (Perfect, Vanquisher, etc) due to their sheer density post Lorwyn.

[Agent J]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned here but there is also Gaddock Teeg which is at least decent vs. some combo decks and some control decks (especially 4c Landstill).
But still it remains a mid-range aggro deck with next to no control elements which probably isn't viable for Legacy. I guess a deck like this would be a lot stronger in Extended or Standard.

[Zach Tartell]

61 Cards (and a rough list - keep it in your pants)

4 Guilt-Palace Leige
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Loxodon Heiararch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 3/4 Vigilance Guy
4 Watchwolf
(Honorable Mention to Ranger En-Vec)

4 Chrome Mox
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
6 Forest
8 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Gaddok Teeg
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt

[Versus]

What, no Armidillo Cloak!? Seriously though, no Goyf here?

I still wanna find a way to fit that Juniper Order/Finks combo in there somewhere, but good sac outlets are mostly in black I guess and depending on 5cc creatures for a "combo" is shaky at best in Legacy.

I was thinking something like:

4 Finks
4 Saffi
4 Heirarch
4 Goyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Birds


4 STP
3 Jitte
3 Wrath
3 Garruk
2 Harmonize

4 Chrome Mox
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy (??? Does anyone play these in Legacy? You can spare the life here)
5 Plains

[Zach Tartell]

What, no Armidillo Cloak!? Seriously though, no Goyf here?

The plan was to not be two-for-one'd. Ever. I dislike the fact that I couldn't fit in a couple of the +2/+2 + flying + indestructable cloaks, but that's just the way it happened. I'd rather run SOF&I over those enchantments, anyway. Or... Loxodon Warhammer.

As for goyf, I don't know how I feel about him. While on one hand he is probably the most cost effective creature in the game, he costs two, and doesn't recieve the bonus that the rest of the troops do from the Liege. Orrigionally I was gonna rock the afformentioned flying/can't blow this shit up enchantment, but I kind of got carried away searching for green and white creatures. I'd really almost like to cut Watchwolf (though he's so efficient and can be played turn 1 occasionally) for the Ranger en-Vec, 'cause he can block goyf all day. Kind of like how I will Survive played Enlightened Bushi, only this guy's a 2/2 First Striker that can become a 4/4 First striker occasionally. And costs half as much to regenerate. And is a freaking pimp when weilding the Jitte.



I still wanna find a way to fit that Juniper Order/Finks combo in there somewhere, but good sac outlets are mostly in black I guess and depending on 5cc creatures for a "combo" is shaky at best in Legacy.

I reckon that gaining infinite life is cool, but it's ultimately unnecessary. There are 8 CIP gain life guys that dodge counterbalance. I think we've got it covered.

[Versus]

I reckon that gaining infinite life is cool, but it's ultimately unnecessary. There are 8 CIP gain life guys that dodge counterbalance. I think we've got it covered.

Very true. JOR does fall into the danger of cool things catagory.

*Edited part about Shusher. It was stupid!

[Phantom]

61 Cards (and a rough list - keep it in your pants)

4 Guilt-Palace Leige
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Loxodon Heiararch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 3/4 Vigilance Guy
4 Watchwolf
(Honorable Mention to Ranger En-Vec)

4 Chrome Mox
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
6 Forest
8 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Gaddok Teeg
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt


I like this list, but I think it's a little too focused on hybrid/gold. After all, decks like Thresh and Landstill are never going to let you resolve/keep a Wilt-Leaf Liege, so you don't want to be stuck with overcosted beaters like Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (as compared to Goyf). Also, I think Glowrider is a better choice than Thorn of Amethyst, since they will both probably be coming down on turn two, and one can carry a Jitte, go on a Mox, and get pumped by the Leige. Lastly, I can't see how Teeg doesn't go maindeck (with wheel of sun an moon replacing him?).

Overall I think I would go:
-4 Cavaliers (3/4 Vigilance guy)
-4 Thorn
-4 Loxodon Heiararch (overcrowds the 4cc slot for even more lifegain on a guy that can't handle Goyf by himself)
-3 Engineered Explosives (Teeg screws him)

+4 Goyf
+3 Teeg
+4 Glowrider
+3 Oblivion Ring
+1 Jitte
(I would also look into Anurid Brushopper, Rhys the Redeemed, Seedcradle Witch or Elvish Hexhunter as a possible Watchwolf replacement)

[rleader]

Very true. JOR does fall into the danger of cool things catagory.

"Danger of" is seriously being overused these days -- hell, there's about a million cool cards in Magic that cost five mana. That's why they cost five mana. :tongue:

Not sure how I feel about Watchwolf. He's not that cool without the Liege in play* and can give you mana problems in the early game. Skipping the 2 slot (besides Saffi) can give you some nice EE use, too. I'd play Goyf if you expect other people to be packing him, if not, the deck really isn't optimized for him. Some lucky Gempalm Incinerator out there would probably get his first goyf kill. ;)

*Saffi tricks and Teeg's ability are great, but otherwise (in non combo matchups), it's pretty much a tribal deck, the tribe being G/W rather than wizards, kithkin, etc. The critters are better on their own (3/4, 4/4) than most tribes, provided you can cast them, but it's still pretty much a tribal deck with all the inherent weaknesses of having to keep multiple critters in play for their abilities to come online. OTOH, the threat density is pretty high, something that aggro-control hates.

[Sek'Kuar]

4 Horizon Canopy (??? Does anyone play these in Legacy? You can spare the life here)


The thing about Horizon Canopy is that it doesn't count as a forest/plains. It is just a non-basic land. as such you cannot fetch it with fetchlands. (probably why it rarely sees play in legacy. A better candidate would be the Selesnya shock land from Ravnica. I think its called Temple Garden. Or maybe I'm confusing it with the G/W dual from Kamigawa. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think thats it.

[Nihil Credo]

Hmm, doesn't Anurid Brushopper > Wiltleaf Cavaliers? With easier colour requirements you could also include Wasteland.

[Versus]

The thing about Horizon Canopy is that it doesn't count as a forest/plains. It is just a non-basic land. as such you cannot fetch it with fetchlands. (probably why it rarely sees play in legacy. A better candidate would be the Selesnya shock land from Ravnica. I think its called Temple Garden. Or maybe I'm confusing it with the G/W dual from Kamigawa. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think thats it.

Right, I play too much Standard and all my Legacy decks are mono colored. I always neglect the impact of Fetches on mana bases. I just thought the deck needed some form draw. I'm not a big fan of Harmonize really and I know Orhan Viper isn't exactly Legacy caliber.

[Team-Hero]

I kind of doubt it. No one's going to blind-hymn and a lot of Ale builds will slow down how fast a GW deck can get to four mana.

If Hymn hits the Liege, it comes into play for free. In argument, both decks have StPs for removal. On top of the Liege, green/white have really good mana accel cards and are not affected by Wasteland all that much. I still belive GW has a slight advantage over BW.

[rleader]

f Hymn hits the Liege, it comes into play for free.

I said "cast hymn *blindly.*" It's not like I didn't read the card. B/W will duress/thoughtseize first in most cases (allowing you to play around Liege) and if it's a turn one Hymn, well, it's random, so even if you are holding, it's probably a 2/5 or 2/7 odds that you get the wonders of a dodecapod.


green/white have really good mana accel cards

Birds? They make a turn 2 smallpox ridiculously awesome (usually as people keep bird hands that would otherwise cause them to mulligan for more lands), worth it even with the risk of Liege -- which you can deal with anyway. All B/W needs to win is to keep Dark Confidant in play for any amount of time (oh dear, the opponent has 4 removal spells in their deck!) or G/W away from four mana for a few turns.

Of course, you could wind up with a hand with 2 moxes and 2 birds and zero threats. Good mana accel takes away from a deck's consistency to a certain degree.


Hmm, doesn't Anurid Brushopper > Wiltleaf Cavaliers?

Vigilance is kinda nice; it pretty much negates Nimble Mongoose.

[Sir Peche]

Here's a GW list I've been toying around with for quite sometime, I'm taking it to a small legacy tournament next week and i'll post results from it afterwards

4x Watchwolf
4x Tarmagoyf
4X Tempting Wurm (lol)
4x Eternal Witness
4x Exalted Angel

2x Sylvan Library
4x Cataclysm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring/Krosan Grip varying on meta
4x Rancor
3x Aether Vial

4x Chrome Mox
1x Ancient Den
1x Tree of Tales
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Plains
3x Forest


Quick Notes:

Tempting Wurm... Wtf?
-People think you are an idiot for playing this, until you resolve a Cataclysm right afterwards.

COTV @ 2 tends to wreck this deck, hence the maindeck O rings/Krosan Grips.

Sylvan Library + Fetchlands= similar to brainstorm + fetchlands

All sorts of neat tricks and synergies around Cataclysm
-Artifact lands/Chrome moxen to give you that extra mana after Cataclysm
-Helps pump Goyf and as mentioned above can wreck people after you play Tempting Wurm (preferably in their end step via Aether Vial) if they overextend.
-Aether Vial also lessens the impact of saccing land

Card Advantage via:
-Cataclysm
-Recurring STP or other stuff with Eternal Witness
-Your creatures being bigger than theirs are

Sideboard would include Krosan Grips, Oblibion Rings and a bunch of Combo Hate.

Alright, let the criticism begin!

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mercy Killing yet. It seems like it could help push the viability of blue-green decks by giving them good spot removal without the need to splash for a third color. I've been thinking of trying it in some sort of :u::g: Landstill or Landstill-like deck, along with Engineered Explosives, Garruk, Regrowth...maybe even Trip Noose as additional creature "removal".

[AngryTroll]

Don't overlook Fleetfoot Panther, the 3/4 Gating creature with Flash for 1GW.

[from Cairo]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mercy Killing yet. It seems like it could help push the viability of blue-green decks by giving them good spot removal without the need to splash for a third color. I've been thinking of trying it in some sort of :u::g: Landstill or Landstill-like deck, along with Engineered Explosives, Garruk, Regrowth...maybe even Trip Noose as additional creature "removal".

Why is it surprising?

Mercy Killing is a 1 for 0, you trade a card in hand and 3 mana to break their creature into 1/1s. It doesn't push the viability of G/x decks, because it isn't good spot removal. Compared to something like Dark Banishing at 2B it actually kills the creature, or Repulse at 2U that bounces it from play and draws you a card, or Exile at 2W that removes an attacking creature from the game, etc these are all comparable-better solutions and none of those cards are considered playable.

Not to even get into the fact that the deck being discussed is G/W; White coincidently having Swords to Plowshares; Swords to Plowshares coincidently being the best spot removal in the format.

[rleader]

Yeah, why not just utopia vow or lignify? What makes mercy killing so exciting?

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, why not just utopia vow or lignify? What makes mercy killing so exciting?
1/1 creatures are a lot easier to deal with than something bigger, not least because you can profitably block them. And yes, I realize the deck being discussed is :g::w:, I'm looking at applications of the cards to decks where you can take advantage of the hybrid cost.

EDIT: Vow costs two and is therefore easy to deal with via Counterbalance. Lignify leaves them with a permanent blocker that outclasses just about anything in :u::g: Landstill except Goyf. Both are only sorcery speed, making them rather meh in a deck with the option of running Cunning Wish.

[Maëlig]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mercy Killing yet. It seems like it could help push the viability of blue-green decks by giving them good spot removal without the need to splash for a third color. I've been thinking of trying it in some sort of :u::g: Landstill or Landstill-like deck, along with Engineered Explosives, Garruk, Regrowth...maybe even Trip Noose as additional creature "removal".
Only shadowmoor brought to blue a better anti-creature imho : Curse of Chains.


Don't overlook Fleetfoot Panther, the 3/4 Gating creature with Flash for 1GW.
Interesting, I didn't know the card. But isn't stonecloaker superior to it in almost all situations?

[rufus]

Mercy Killing is a 1 for 0, you trade a card in hand and 3 mana to break their creature into 1/1s. It doesn't push the viability of G/x decks, because it isn't good spot removal. Compared to something like Dark Banishing at 2B it actually kills the creature, or Repulse at 2U that bounces it from play and draws you a card, or Exile at 2W that removes an attacking creature from the game, etc these are all comparable-better solutions and none of those cards are considered playable.

Mercy Killing does have some potential use as a method to circumvent removal or drawbacks along the lines of Phyrexian Dreadnought + Mercy Killing (which is obviously awful) or Mercy Killing played in response to STP. That said, it's still awful.... It *might* be almost playable in some sort of green 3-sphere deck.

[Sek'Kuar]

Wait...What? Fleetfoot Panther plus Finks w/ -1/-1 counter = more life.

(just stating the obvious. Yeah, Im not slow on the uptake or anything.) I might almost go as far as to say finks could be as good as heirarch.

[from Cairo]

I might almost go as far as to say finks could be as good as heirarch.

This doesn't seem like a stretch at all. 4/4 bodies aren't what they used to be pre-Goyf; and paying 4 mana still sucks as much as it ever did.

[Malchar]

Someone else touched on this already. Gold cards are more powerful because of the more difficult mana requirement. The big advantage of these cards is that they fit into a monocolored deck.

Theoretically, you could add Wilt-Leaf Liege to a mono white deck, play a shield of the oversoul on him, and get both bonuses. The best use that I can see here is something like Shield of the Oversoul + Wrath of god. Deed also works nicely, but if you're splashing for deed then you can afford to splash for better creatures too. It would work in a monogreen deck too, but monogreen can't really take advantage of indestructible.

In legacy, decks can easily afford to go into 3 or 4 colors, and usually have to in order to be competitive. Maybe cards like these will make monocolor stronger in legacy. It makes sense considering the rise of blood moon/wasteland.

I'm happy that at least they've made some enchant creatures that are so powerful that people are considering them in legacy even when they don't have the rancor ability.

[Isamaru]

So is what they say true about the N&D forum? (Does so much bad come out of it that everyone keeps their distance?)

The second I Will Survive (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245) was confined to it, it seems like nobody has ever heard of it but Zach Tartell. I've managed to keep it GW, but GW accomplishes everything I need the deck to do in only those two colors anyway. ^_^